the entrepreneurs radio show 068 dr. joan rosenberg

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW

Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business

Copyright © 2012, 2013 The Entrepreneur’s Radio Show of 27

EPISODE #68: JOAN ROSENBERG

#68-Joan Rosenberg

In this episode, Travis and his guest, Dr. Joan Rosenberg had an interesting talk about some of the

basic principles of psychology and relates it to business and entrepreneurship. The guest Dr.

Rosenberg is a licensed psychologist with over 25 years of practice under her belt. She also created

Emotional Mastery and a successful entrepreneur, having been able to help thousands of people

develop self-esteem and emotional balance and assist them to be successful in their lives.

Travis and Dr. Rosenberg touched in topics from Emotional Mastery like knowing what you know and

“being in touch with as much of your moment-to-moment experience as you can bear.” Joan also gave

her top 5 things that people should focus on in improving ones emotional state which in turn would

ensure success. These are to be aware of what you're aware of, to know what you know, practice

saying what you need to say, to be congruent, and to share what you know. These are just some of the

things that Travis and Dr. Rosenberg talked about that everyone, especially entrepreneurs, can benefit

from.

Dr Joan Rosenberg – Using Emotional Mastery

to grow your business and income Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins, welcome to episode number 68 of the Entrepreneur's Radio

Show, a production of Rockstar Entrepreneur Network. It's just me and you today, my good friend and

co-host Sandra is back on the road for business, so it will be me, you, and our guest, Dr. Joan

Rosenberg. Joan's a licensed psychologist. She's the creator of emotional mastery and she's a highly

regarded expert psychologist and master clinician.

Now, the stuff that we're going to get down to as it relates to entrepreneurs is some of the emotional

blocks that prevents us from maybe taking that next step or that things that we do sabotage our own

success. I know that there's a myth out there about that problem and I'm here to tell you, I want to tell

you from my experience that it is present. So we go deep on several key things that are a vital part of

your emotional health and accomplishing success through your business. Now, Joan has shared her

life-changing ideas and models for emotional mastery and personal growth, and lots of professional

seminars with high-level people, Brenda Breshard and performance academy, John Assaraf, master

your mindset series, Bo Eason, and the list goes on and on. I've known Joan for quite awhile, she's a

great gal and it's a very interesting and fun interview.




Before we get started I want to remind you to be sure and stay with us until the very if you can because

I have a question for you. And then as always, I like to share a little inspiration with you. However, I

want to start the show off with a challenge for you, and that challenge is we've setup a recording

service on our website where you can just click on a button and leave a recorded message. You go to

RockstarEntrepreneur.com and there on the right you'll see a little, like a silhouette of a, what I want to

say, like a microphone and basically click on that, tell me what's holding your business back, what's

your biggest problem or challenge that you're dealing with as a business owner and then as we build up

enough of these questions what we're going to do is we're going to go through and select them, and

then play them on air and answer them. So, give that some thought and then step-up to the challenge

and come to the website and tell us what's holding you back, alright?

Just keep it clean because we want to maintain or family friendly rating. And one question per message

please.

So, now that we got that out of the way, let's go ahead and get down to business. Without further ado,

welcome to the show Joan.

Joan: Thank you so much Travis: , I'm excited to be here.

Travis: I am too. I've known you for a while so I'm excited to have you on the show, we've been

buddies for a while.

Joan: That's probably cutting across, I'm going to guess 3 or 4 years now.

Travis: Yeah, we have, yeah. Hey, before we get into... I don't know if you're familiar with the format of

the show, but one of the things that we like to do before we get into what you teach entrepreneurs, do

you mind giving us the back-story of how you come to discover or realize what it is that you teach and

feel like makes a difference?

Joan: You know that has a long tale to it, has a long history to it. I've spent more than 25 years as a

licensed psychologist doing psychotherapy and simultaneously teaching how to do it. And I started to,

when I was working at UCLA in the Students Psychological Services, I ended up actually drawing out a

diagram based on the work that I was doing with women who had eating disorders. And I realize as

years progressed that what I had written out was something that worked with everybody.

Travis: Like a framework?

Joan: Yeah, totally a framework.

Travis: Okay.

http://www.rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com/




Joan: In fact, I left because now it's basically kind of my life's work on one page.

Travis: Cool.

Joan: And I kept on using it, and I teach from it, I use it, and everything coalesced around. I think of

having two kind of very strong bodies of knowledge here or offerings if you will to entrepreneurs,

business managers, business owners, people who just really want to get their work out into the world.

And one has to do with the teaching approach that I use to help people learn how to do psychotherapy

and then the 2nd has to do with what was on that template or that framework and that I did back in

1992, '93, '94, and it's really now what I consider the basis for high self-esteem, for core emotional

strength, kind of unwavering emotional strength, and it works. So that's where it started and then I just

kept on refining it over the past 20 years.

Travis: Right. So, now it sounds like you're saying that you teach people how to do psychotherapy or

entrepreneurs how to do psychotherapy, or was that in the journey, as you were teaching other people

psychotherapy you discover this framework and it's something that's applicable to entrepreneurs.

Joan: No, I don't mean to be confusing with situations, actually two separate paths.

Travis: Okay.

Joan: One has to do with the work that I was literally doing to work with clients, and that was when I

was, if you will providing psychotherapy or again, working directly with clients. The second had to do

with, because I was teaching psychotherapy really almost as long as I've been doing it. It's kind of an

odd situation but it's true, I developed a whole teaching approach. And out of that is teaching people

how to use listening skills effectively, and that's something that certainly any manager or business

owner would want to know. And so it's two separate, one really dedicated primarily for those who were

doing psychotherapy, teaching them how to do it. The other is what I would call kind of an emotional

mastery approach which helps people break through lots of different emotional obstacles or challenges

so that they can go after the dreams that they want to go after the goals they want to achieve. So it's

two separate.

Travis: Now, number one when you're teaching and it took me awhile to realize this, and I think this is a

good illustration for everybody listening too. The depth of knowledge and skill set, and everything

drastically increases when you teach, you get a very intimate knowledge. I had something that I wrote

and taught on that I had generated many, many millions of dollars on so I thought that, in one of my

businesses. And I thought that I knew everything that there was to know about it, but when I wrote and

taught on it, I found a whole new level of competence that really kind of blew me away.




Joan: So absolutely true, yes. The questions that you get back-- There's two things that happen, the

more you have to teach, you have to figure out the simple ways to describe something so that people

can really, if you will get the conceptual knowledge behind whatever you're doing, and that deepens

your own understanding. That the challenge to speak simply deepens our own understanding. And then

there's the other element to it, is that when you're answering questions the same thing happens. You

start to make connections in your own understanding that you never thought were there. And so the

questions really encourage you or certainly made a difference in terms of me, in terms of my own depth

of understanding as well. So in total agreement with you on that one.

Travis: Yeah, and I liken it to my level of knowledge and skill set at the time on that specific topic was

like being two dimensional and when I taught it and wrote on it, it became three dimensional. And you

can hang me by my toes or wake me up in the middle of the night and I can answer the question from

any direction, and go in depth without any preparation or anything. And when that happen, I grew to a

whole new level of awareness and skill set that gave me a whole different presence among people,

does that make sense?

Joan: Yes, absolutely. I almost think the best way to describe it is that your knowledge becomes

embodied. It's almost as if you're living with knowledge literally at a cellular level.

Travis: Right, right.

Joan: You noticed.

Travis: Yeah, it becomes a part of you, right.

Joan: Right, exactly.

Travis: Yeah. So, in your journey, how long before you had this "Aha" moment? Stuff like that interest

me, before you kind of stumbled onto or just had this realization of this framework that we're going to

get into.

Joan: You mean how long had I been in the profession?

Travis: Yeah, how long had you been doing what it is you do, whether it be studying it, teaching it,

doing it, before you had that aha moment?

Joan: Well, if we counted from the very start, from the point at which I got into psychology and doing

therapy, and that actually started early in my life, then I would probably date that back to 1975. So it

would've been from about '75 to '92. So--

Travis: Less than 20 years.




Joan: Yeah. So it was somewhere in that, and they talk about the expertise at that 10,010 years, so I

was probably 15 to 17 years. Not entirely from the point of licensure but from the point that I actually

started in the field. So I was licensed first in '86, so it would have been 6 or 7 years out if it went for my

license but if we went from the very start, it would've been all the way back to '75.

Travis: Right. Well, you know what's interesting about you Joan is the majority of the entrepreneurs

that I interview, and a lot of entrepreneurs out there period do not have an academic background. And

number 1, education is the answer to virtually every problem that we come up with in life. A lot of us

entrepreneurs couldn't pay attention or couldn't focus long enough to be a good student. I know that

was my problem and so kudos to you that you had the intelligence and the wear with all to get the

education first, whereas I went at it backwards. So I commend you for that. Now, beyond getting the

education, walk me through what it took to ramp you up into being a success in business, did you first

start out with a model of selling your time for your money where you do psychoanalysis, or teaching

people, or did it move from there to something else. Can you explain that journey for me?

Joan: It's kind of interesting, I have a little bit of the, and I don't really want to call it ADD but I have a

little bit of the experience that many people have which is that you stay more stimulated by doing more

things as oppose to doing just one thing. And from the point that I started actually, when I completed all

the formal course work and was now working directly with clients, it was clear that just doing that wasn't

going to be satisfying, so that the teaching element became a part of that journey.

And that expanded out as I went along to wanting to train in different ways, and then that led me to

speaking and training others for continuing education. And then that led me to speaking, and training,

and doing keynoting beyond just continuing education for other mental health professionals. So it kept

on expanding out based on what I was doing, and then I think it's kind of a turning point if you will in the

marketing element and what led me more directly into business and probably expanded my whole

notion of being an entrepreneur. And I think it was '91, '92, it was a lot going on in mental health in

terms of all the insurance companies pulling their entities with reimbursing for a treatment and I realized

I needed to learn how to market myself. And oddly enough, shortly after those thoughts, I got this very

long sales letter from Anthony Robbins talking about J. Abraham. And that point in time, we're talking

about 1992, J. was offering a "$5,000" seminar. And I was crazy enough to follow-up and I went. And

what J. did was say that before you come he wanted you to read basically 800 pages of written

material. And you know what, I did it.

Travis: Good for you.

Joan: I actually sat down and read everything he's sent at that point, and what was amazing to me is I

literally, Travis: , felt popping in my brain, I was having an understanding of concepts that I never

imagined and at that point in time it changed the way I looked at life. Not only did I have this




understanding of psychology, but now I had an intersection of how to think through marketing. And the

funny thing that happened with that is I actually went back 4 other times, I think to assist, so I had an

opportunity to embed the knowledge more fully, and that really started me on the entrepreneurial kind

of marketing path. And I turned around and took the parallels with the same material and started

offering marketing workshops for mental health professionals because we were in such dire need of

that knowledge. So I became entrepreneurial in the moment by turning that information around.

Travis: Sounds like a paradigm shift for me.

Joan: And yes, it was a total paradigm shift.

Travis: Yeah. Well you know, it probably would be worth explaining how you and I met, we're at

masterminds at an events, you know. That's how you and I become friends, and so we both believe

strongly in investing in ourselves, and it's not cheap you know.

Joan: No, it's not cheap and it's the best investment you can ever make.

Travis: You know, I recently wrote a piece and it was called a secret door. And as a young man I

always felt like there is a secret door that the super successful had access to, they knew where it was

and they could enter and nobody else really could. And for years, and I just had a strong sense that it

was there, and for years I looked for it, I looked for country clubs, at hot rod clubs, and exotic car clubs

as I found success in my business, and they never quite fit. Until one day, I stumbled on to a

mastermind and then all of a sudden it did fit because everybody in the mastermind was a business

owner. Now, we weren't in the same industry but we all has similar issues, which were employees,

taxes, management, you know, on and on and on.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And exactly what you just mentioned is when you get together with a group of people that are

like-minded, paradigm shifts can happen, right.

Joan: Absolutely.

Travis: And so I happened to know that you've taken many more high-level mastermind trainings

because I've been right there with you on some of them. And now the common business model, and I

don't want to knock this business model because a lot of people have it but they're constantly trading

their time for the money, right.

Joan: Right.




Travis: And Dean Jackson explains it as the golden hamster wheel, you know, it's the golden hamster

cage, it's nicely appointed with beautiful pillows and everything you'd ever want, but again it's still a

hamster wheel.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And you know that's the problem with the business model when the only way that you make

your living is trading your time for your money even if it's teaching, unless you use a scalable model of

digitalizing it or recording and selling it.

So this event that you're talking about was that the shift that you saw, going from trading your time for

your money to a scalable business like that?

Joan: You know I saw that and understood that and I think the challenge was, and I guess has always

been, that's my biggest challenge is moving my energies away from the teaching and away from the

one-to-one. I'm supporting myself so that it's-- I still need to generate the income, and they're really is

also a tale or some time that it takes to really between the transition from the dollar-for-hour to

something that's much more scalable. So it's been a longer process for me to make that transition from

one thing to the scalable. But I certainly have and I'm working on doing more and more of that.

Travis: And it's not easy, a one-to-one is much easier. If you went to speak with, and example, you

might be invited to speak somewhere and you teach exactly what you're talking about. Maybe you're

speaking to a room full of 20 people, then it's very easy to have 3, or 4, or 5 one-to-one clients come

out of that event, right.

Joan: Right, and that isn't my goal, my goal at this point really is to disseminate my work.

Travis: Exactly.

Joan: And I am so grateful and feel so blessed to have the success that I've had. It really kind of all

cross all the domains, both doing psychotherapy, teaching how to do it, when I go out and train others

and speak, and now though the key here is really finding the best venues for me to be able to get all

that knowledge out and really to disseminate it so people can make it very useable for them.

Travis: Right. So let's segue into the pieces that you teach. Something that you and I were talking

about is the emotional piece with communication, with listening, with leadership, with managing people,

even in sales.

Joan: Right.

Travis: Can you take us down that path and talk more about that?




Joan: Well, there's two ways to go here. We were talking a little bit earlier, talking about 2 paths, one,

again relates to the information that I use to train, in this case, masters and doctoral students how to do

psychotherapy. And some of the materials, some of the content in that approach is totally applicable to

management and business owners in terms of how to listen effectively and how to respond effectively.

And the other that is probably the broader based information is what I'm currently calling kind of my

emotional mastery approach. And that's countless different strategies that help people face fear of

failure, face what I call self-created worry anxiety, help them develop a different relationship to trust and

vulnerability, and deal with, I think I said fear, failure, and risk taking. So it's all that kind of knowledge

that initially went back to that diagram that I did 20 years ago.

Travis: Right. Well you pick it, which path you want to go down. We may have to do two different

segments, one later, but you pick the path.

Joan: I would say the one that's more broadly based.

Travis: Okay, let's go down that path.

Joan: Okay. Go ahead and let you redirect me with the question, and then--

One, okay. I believe that a lot of people, I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but I believe a lot

of other people think that self-sabotage, that fear of failure is nonsense and I disagree with them. And

so I know a lot of it. I'm actually curious why someone has incredible amounts of courage and

confidence, and even though maybe they shouldn't have that confidence when you see people

irrationally confident, right.

Joan: Uhuh.

Travis: Although that helps them in doing what they're doing, so either one of those, let's start off with

either one of those points.

Joan: The fear of failure and the irrational self-confidence.

Travis: Two different directions, what stands in someone's way from really ramping it up and getting

and finding incredible success in their business and in their life.

Joan: You know Travis: earlier you were talking about this notion of a secret door. I'll tell you the

secret right now. So for you and whoever's listening here. The secret is being able to deal with your

unpleasant feelings.

Travis: What do you mean?




Joan: That's the key. What it means is the most, a good many of us, I can't put percentages on it but if

we look at all the kind of struggles that people have in terms of addictions or a whole host of other

problems, a good many of us try to live life trying not to know what we know.

Travis: Go deeper with that.

Joan: It's an effort to move away from the truth of whatever our experience is. The truth of the kinds of

thoughts we think, what we feel, what we need, what we perceive. And as a consequence people start

down what I would describe as a path of despair or a path of alienation and despair by trying to

disconnect and distract from what they know to be the truth.

Travis: Okay, so let me draw a parallel and maybe not a business parallel but to clarify. So I had

points, now I try to observe myself in a third person at times at some of the crazy things I do.

Joan: Okay, that's actually the important thing to do by the way.

Travis: Good. And so I've gained weight and I'm thinking, "What's wrong with my pants, my pants are

shrinking. This is my favorite pair of pants, I've had them for 7 years, how are they shrinking now?", you

know.

Joan: Uhuh.

Travis: And while this is laughable, I'm not joking at the time I'm having this conversation, right.

Joan: Of course not.

Travis: Why are my pants getting shorter, what's the problem here, why are they-- And of course none

of it is due to the fact that I'm eating more and I've gained weight or anything, it's something else. And

then I come to realize, looking at this as an outsider that I'm fooling myself and that I'm finding ways to

support these crazy thoughts and beliefs so that I don't have to live with the reality of what's really

happening. Am I summing up what you're saying?

Joan: Absolutely, you nailed it, yes. So that the first part of it is that you're actually doing things

probably to eat, perhaps to handle some unpleasant stuff that was going on and a way to distract from,

to not be as mindful and to distract from perhaps things that were happening. And then the second part

of it is you're further distracting by trying to come up with other explanations than whatever the truth is.

Travis: Right.

Joan: There's two levels to it.




Travis: And there's so many things that we can choose to distract ourself from the reality that you can

spend the next five years in that slightly altered state of reality, right.

Joan: Oh, absolutely true, and you can't even imagine some of the nuances of what people will do. So

let me give you a couple of examples. So straightforward examples are drug user or using food as a

way to get away from problems and another is to, I'll start thinking instead of feeling as a way to distract

from what's going on. Another is I'll have feelings about having feelings as a way to distract, I'll keep my

life in chaos, I'll try to rush through things, there are so many different ways we can distract from the

truth of who we are, it's probably a little frightening.

Travis: Right.

Joan: But the goal here that is to not engage in that and instead to go down a path that is really for me

the essence of what I would call core emotional strength and unwavering self-esteem, and that is to

know what we know. It's to allow ourselves to be fully immersed in the truth of what we know, it's to be

what I call self-attuned or being in touch with as much of your moment-to-moment experience as you

can bear.

Travis: Well, you know, so I'll give you another example of something, and I have a history of driving

hard and accomplishing things. Not flawless, you know, it's just I have tenacity, but a few years ago I

was working on something and I really needed to have it done, say in a month from when I working on

it. But every day when it come time to work on it, I would say, "Oh, I don't feel like working, I'm going to

this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do this." Every day I found a reason to come up of why I'm not

doing what I'm supposed to be doing, and meanwhile I'm having another conversation with myself

saying, "Alright Travis: , you're running out of time, deadline is kept on and on and on and on. And I

never could sit down and do what I needed to do. And so, about a week before this I'm like thinking to

myself, "What's wrong with me, why am I not doing what I'm supposed to be doing,

Joan: Uhuh.

Travis: And, when I was able to get real with myself and be completely honest, I was afraid, I was

down to my last option. This thing that I needed to complete was the last thing I knew to do to

accomplish my goal, and after that I didn't know what else to do. And I was afraid that if I finished it or

when I finished it and didn't work that I'd be lost.

Joan: I would be inclined to take that one-step further and just ask, kind of follow-up what had lost

because what hit me is that you might be disappointed as oppose to lose.

Travis: I'd be clueless, I'd be lost, I'd fail, I'd be a failure, you know.




Joan: Okay, and so let me take you there, it's a great example, but if I were to had a conversation with

you early in that process where you were procrastinating, and kind of delaying which, and this goes at

the heart of lots of entrepreneurial delay which is, let's just use it for, for the sake of our conversation

the notion of fear of failure. And most people think of fear of failure as not achieving what you set out to

achieve.

Travis: Right.

Joan: And I think that's kind of a fear, or a second definition I'm inclined to use for it is not achieving

what you set out to achieve especially the first time you set out to achieve it.

Travis: Great point, I agree.

Joan: Because so many people stopat the first go around where something didn't work. But again, it's a

paradigm shift on the whole thing, and I actually think fear of failure is difficult to tolerating but feelings

that get elicited when you don't achieve what you set out to achieve especially the first time you set-out

to achieve it.

Travis: I agree with you.

Joan: So what was happening when you were procrastinating is that you were being more in touch with

your anticipation of disappointment, or something else. Disappointment, frustration, anger,

embarrassment, who knows?

Travis: Exactly.

Joan: But some kind of unpleasant feeling and it was the anticipation of that unpleasant feeling that

was actually the hold back.

Travis: I agree with you and the answer for me in time came to the point where I had to be okay with

not being right, with making a mistake, with looking silly in the sake of moving forward.

Joan: Exactly. If entrepreneurs can get that, that would be a huge paradigm shift for them. It's

understanding that, again, in my world is unpleasant feelings that are at the heart of so much of what

holds us back.

Travis: Well, you know, and I didn't understand a lot of these things before I started going to different

places and events, and masterminds, and mixing and mingling, and learning and growing, and

understanding how to deal with several of these things. You know, I lost my mother and I'm the baby,

and me and my mother are very, very close and it spun me out of control and all kinds of crazy things. I

let that all kinds of crazy things happen because of that. And so I couldn't deal or I didn't deal with that




emotion or the pain of that emotion, so I just locked it away in like a Tupperware bowl somewhere,

right.

Joan: Uhuh.

Travis: And boy, it was powerful, anytime I opened it up it was almost as powerful as the day that I

sealed it in there, right.

Joan: Oh sure. Grief is intense.

Travis: Yeah, and I had an event happen where I shared it with some people and we got together and I

had a realization in talking about, it was a very painful moment for me but I had to relive it, and I come

to realize that one of the reasons why it was so painful is I didn't feel like I had accomplished a level of

success as a human being that would make my mother proud.

Joan: Wow.

Travis: And so really, what I needed to do is forgive myself.

Joan: Right.

Travis: Because my mother loves me to death and she wouldn't want me to hurt like this.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And once I realize that I needed to forgive myself, because I thought it was something else, and

don't get me wrong, missing my mother is awfully painful but it was also needing to forgive myself.

Joan: Right.

Travis: Because I wanted to be a better kid, I wanted to show here that she did a great job and all

those other things, right.

Joan: Yup.

Travis: But it's those feelings that I think, now that's a very personal feeling for me but it's something

that was standing in the way of me moving forward. And I think that's maybe, I don't want to speak for

you, a fair example of an obstacle, or feeling, or emotion that can stand in our way and prevent us from

accomplishing what we needed to accomplish.

Joan: Oh, yeah. Absolutely true. So you've given two phenomenal examples. One, where you were

holding off completing something in that month's time, and then the second one with-- Actually, in this

case it's dealing with intense grief, and that was really acting as something because it was hard to go




and just experience and live with the experience of that intense grief and sadness that everything you

did to keep away from that. Everything you did in this case to try not to know what you knew was

keeping you actually away from being successful in whatever you were pursuing, or as successful as

you could become.

Travis: Yeah, and it's crazy, on a deep level I knew the answer to that, I'd never took the time to deal

with it because it was so painful.

Joan: And that's the weird part Travis, all of us know that at a deep level.

Travis: Wow.

Joan: I think-- This was so paradoxical about the whole thing, is that not only do we know that we're

trying not to know what we know, we also have an awareness, it's like we have this knowing awareness

of how we're trying not to know things. And because we are a capacity to think about what we think, it

allows us actually to write our course, to getting this ship to go in the right direction. It allows us to

redirect and actually get back on the right path. So when you have the awareness that you were

moving away from that pain and actually had to forgive yourself, you have the inner knowledge of what

you needed to do right there.

Travis: I just needed somebody to help me reach down there and grab it, and move it out of the way.

Joan: Exactly.

Travis: Yeah. So, this path that we're going down, is it completely about removing obstacles or is it

also about adding elements that will compound or add to your success?

Joan: It's both, it's finding kind of all the nuances that we do to get in our own way, and it is also added

to. There's a couple of different things. Broadly speaking, there's 3 to 4 main steps in terms of my whole

approach, and the first is knowing what you know. The second actually is the most additive one, it's

speaking what you know. And in my experience, what I watch is people really struggle a lot with being

able to use their voice with ease, to say the things that they want to say or need to say, to important

people in their life. Again, whether it's in a business situation or in a personal situation. And I think men

struggle with this too but certainly women struggle with it more than men, and the-- so a big piece of

what I kind of add to is helping people understand all the kind of, you've talked about a secret door

before, kind of the secret door to the conversation and how important it is for a person to be able to

speak with ease in whatever situation they're in.

Travis: So are you talking about finding your true voice of who's-- Is that the right way of saying it?




Joan: It could be finding your true voice but I want someone to be able to have the ability or the

capacity to be in a conflictual situation and say what they need to say in that conflictual situation. Or to

confront somebody if they need to confront somebody about poor work, or bad behavior, or misaligned

priorities or whatever it might be. And simultaneously, to have the ease to appreciate that person and

say good job when they've done well and to go home and tell their husband, or wife, or partner, or

lover, or kids, whomever, and say to them "I love you dearly and I miss you." So I want somebody to be

able to have that range of being able to handle their inside experience, all their feelings, the whole

range of feelings plus being able to say them with ease in the appropriate situation with kindness and

with discretion.

Travis: What you’re describing is a powerful leader.

Joan: Right, exactly. And this is what we're talking about earlier too in terms of this guest at the heart of

leadership.

Travis: So do you feel like-- I deal with a lot of entrepreneurs and they are people that, or you can tell

that they're just pleasers; they want to please everybody, right. And so how easy is it for an

entrepreneur that has that type of personality to get out of the tracks of being a pleaser and being able

to stand up? Because I've got a doctor that I mentor, she's super brilliant at what she does and she's so

sweet that when people do things that are dishonest or not proper, she doesn't stand up and defend

things with the vigor that she should.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And so, how do you take someone out of their natural and groove and make them a more well-

rounded leader like that?

Joan: You know it's interesting, you ask me how long and I'm tempted to tell you 2 hours. And the only

reason I'm tempted to tell you that is because I had somebody come in to my office in the past month.

Highly successful in her own right but described herself as an imposter and this is after 20 years in a

particular field. And also described handling her experience by running away from things and shutting

down on them, like she was done. If something wasn't working she was done, there was a cut-off.

Travis: Right.

Joan: And in two hours of again, using a lot of my concepts and ideas, she went home in-between the

second and third time I saw her, and did an entire 180 in terms of how she handled her life. And came

back looking like a different person after two hours. So, how long does it take? It's as long as

somebody's motivated to make a choice to do something different.




Travis: So they've got to be ready for the change?

Joan: They got to be ready for the change. So if she's ready for the change and she has the right

information and has the right strategies, she could change in really just a matter of hours. And then the

rest is all the practice. The rest is just repeating what she does once she's made the change.

Travis: Of re-grooving a new track for them to--

Joan: Absolutely, yeah. From a neural science perspective that's exactly what's taking place.

Travis: And so I want to speak to the importance of what you're talking about because when you have

a skill set that you leave from a place of principle, and you can manage those emotions. Now,

obviously, everyone tries to lead from a place of principle but you congratulate and comment on a job

well done when necessary and you also are able to bring down a harsh judgment on someone when

they're being dishonest or not doing what they're supposed to be doing. That consistency and

defending your principles, integrity within your business are what make people work for you for 20

years.

Joan: Right, true, yes.

Travis: Because when they know that they can get a fair shake, you know, in all of my businesses, you

can disagree with me in the business and as long as it's based in integrity and you're not trying to be

cruel, mean, or have some agenda, we'll sit down and talk about it, and if you're right then there's a

good chance that you're going to win. And people have to know that that fairness exist within the

organization for them to want to stay with you and they'll stay with you through humps, and bumps, and

dips, and all that other stuff because they know, if it ever hits the fan, they know that they can get a fair

shake.

Joan: Right. And I have something to expand on this one, and it's really interesting. You said a couple

of things that I thought were great, one had to do with the fair shake and the notion that that you're

really coming from a place of kindness. So let me expand on a couple of different things here, one is

this whole notion of confronting employees, and when I talk about confrontation, most people react to it,

people bristle at even the word-- Because it conjures up all these heat, and explosiveness, and harsh

judgment and all those kinds of things. And I don't see them in that light. The only way I think about

confrontation is that it's simply a statement of observation, that's it.

Travis: Right.

Joan: So if you're confronting somebody i.e. all you're doing is making a statement of what you

observe, then that can be done with discretion and from a place of kindness, but it can still get at the




problem that's taking place in the work setting. So that's one thing, the second thing which I find so

fascinating is that, and you're talking about literally, if you have employees that are sticking with you for

20 years, it's because the environment generally feel safe to them. But here's the kicker on that one.

Most of us believe that we will tell the truth in a situation when we feel safe. And my perspective is we

will feel safe when the truth is told.

Travis: Definitely make sense and I agree with you.

Joan: So when you are able to look at that employee and say, "You need to be doing this task or

whatever in a different way," then we approached, it didn't work, or whatever because you're telling the

truth in the situations with your employees, that's what creates the safety for them. And again it's when

you're truth telling is occurring what I like to call from a positive, kind, and well-intentioned way. And

when you do that employees are going to be like glue to you.

Travis: Right. Yeah, there's a congruency and maybe you have somebody that's just doing a terrible

job in the organization, a manager or something. You've got to deal with the issue, you can't force-feed

your people to believe that the problem is not there, you need to recognize it and deal with it. Or it

causes a dissention amongst everybody in the organization.

Joan: And it causes dissention because the truth is not being dealt with.

Travis: Exactly.

Joan: So it brings me back to this whole notion of people knowing what they know, handling the truth,

addressing the truth of the situation, doing it truthfully and all of that creates safety and connection, and

long-term employees.

Travis: Right. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Joan: I totally agree.

Travis: I have a reporting mechanism that all of my employees do, and it's very rigid, kind of like the

military. We've got 6 or 7 points, I don't remember how many points now, but they have to report every

day at the end of the day. And it's about what they've accomplished.

Joan: Oh.

Travis: And so it's not about what they try to do, you know. And so early on when I implemented this a

lot of people wanted to, well, I answered the phone and I did this, and then, "No, no, that's your daily

job. What did you accomplish today?"




Joan: Right.

Travis: And they still struggled with it, and I said, "So think about it like this, Friday comes around, do

you want me to pay you, or do you want me to try and pay you?" And they said, "Oh well, I want you to

pay me." I said, "Well, I want you to accomplish XYZ, and it's above and beyond answering the phone,

turning the lights on, and doing ABC in the office," right.

Joan: Right.

Travis: It's you going above and beyond, and we created an employee lounge to where every day,

everyone reports the time that they clocked in, the time that they clocked out, what they accomplished,

line by line item. And so what it does is it causes them to have a holy smokes to theirself, if they're not

accomplishing stuff they know they're going to report it.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And so it's a little bit of a self-policing thing.

Joan: Right, sure.

Travis: And then also I can look and see what key people are getting accomplished.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And I think that aligns with some of the things they you're talking about there.

Joan: Absolutely. And again, in this case it's people holding themselves accountable.

Travis: Right.

Joan: Yeah.

Travis: Now, something that I figured out earlier and then obviously you've known for a long time is,

you know, it fascinated me that people, a soldier would be willing to sacrifice his life for a cause.

Joan: Right.

Travis: But would you be willing to sacrifice your life for a million dollars? And I think the answer's

probably no, right. Would you agree?

Joan: A lot of people hold back on that, yes, they understand that money's not the key thing, right.




Travis: And so, there is a misconfusion or a misunderstanding with a lot of business owners is they

don't feel like they need to treat people like human beings and have the congruency like you were

talking about with honesty, and integrity, and all that other stuff.

Joan: Right.

Travis: People stick with you for 20 years because of what they believe in, not because of their

paycheck. Now it does help to pay competent people but it's not the leading reason.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And it's one of the things I noticed early on and I felt like that is congruent with the point that

you're making as well.

Joan: Yeah, again, I would agree with you, I think that often times what people want more than

anything is to be recognized, and acknowledged, and validated. And if they have that experience on a

relatively consistent basis where they're working, their level of satisfaction increases immensely.

Travis: Right. So, let me ask you, and this may be a little redundant so forgive me if it is. But off the top

of my head, or off the top of your head, could you give me like the top 5 things that people should do

and the top 5 that they shouldn't. I know I'm putting you on the spot but--

Joan: Top 5, in what domain are we talking specifically?

Travis: Well, in the line that we've been talking about, with the conversations that we'd been having.

Top 5 things that they should be focusing on maybe improving the results or getting out of their own

way.

Joan: Yeah. You know what, I'm going to start in a way that I don't typically start. People have to notice

what they notice. So paying attention to what you think about and how you think it is important.

Travis: I like that.

Joan: So, number one would be, to either you can say it a couple of different ways to either be aware

of what you're aware of or to notice what you notice. You want to notice where your attention is going.

A second would be to, and I'm going to walk down my path a little bit here, is to know what you know.

So first is to be aware of what you're aware of, the second is to know what you know. And so if I want

the corollary there it would be too move away from trying not to know what you know.

A third would be to practice saying what you need to say.




Travis: Okay.

Joan: And that needs to be done from a positive kind and well-intentioned place, even if you're angry.

Travis: Great point and I'm going to go back and we'll discuss these points, I'm writing them down as

you tell me.

Joan: Okay. Let's see what's the-- Another would be to do with what you were talking about in terms of

integrity earlier, and that would be to be congruent.

Travis: Okay.

Joan: And being congruent involves having your words and actions match your thoughts and feelings.

Travis: Okay. Alright, and number five.

Joan: It would be to share what you know.

Travis: I like it. Okay, so let's stop there. I'd ask you for two fives but let's look for the sake of probably

time and confusion, because we can go deep on these and we really don't have time to go deep on

this. So let's go back, so notice what you notice, give me a few sentences on that just to make sure that

we're clear.

Joan: Uhm hmm

Travis: Did I lose you?

Joan, you're there?

Joan: I'm here, I can hear you.

Travis: Hold on just a second, can you hear me now?

Joan: I can hear you.

Travis: Okay, I'm sorry; I lost you for a second.

Joan: Okay.

Travis: Okay, so.

Joan: I didn't go anywhere, I'm here.




Travis: Good. Okay, so number one, notice what you notice, can you give me a couple of sentences on

that?

Joan: For me it would involved you paying attention to what you're paying attention to. So it means

noticing how you think or noticing what you think about. Neuroscience or psychology now likes to say

where your attention goes energy flows.

Travis: Alright.

Joan: And what that means is that if you're caught for instance in negative thinking or harsh self-

judgment, then you have to start noticing the best what you're doing so that you can get yourself out of

it.

Travis: So an example would be, "Well, Travis: can do that but I can."

Joan: Sure, yeah, that's an example and you have to notice that you're comparing yourself with

someone else.

Travis: Yeah, and--

Joan: And will go, "Oh, wait a minute, Travis: is doing what he's doing and I need to go do what I need

to do--"

Travis: Exactly, right.

Joan: So yes. So it's noticing the kind of thoughts that are occupying your mind, or feelings, and then

what you're doing with them. So it's an effort, noticing what you noticed for being aware of what you're

aware of is all about noticing the patterns in your life.

Travis: Okay, so that makes sense. Now, know what you know.

Joan: Again, so what we were talking about, kind of thread it throughout our conversation today and

that is I'm being in-touch with as much of your moment to moment experience as you can handle, it's

being aware of your thoughts, being aware of your feelings, being aware of what you need, all those

kinds of experiences, being aware of what you perceive. So it's staying in touch with the truth of who

you are.

Travis: And practicing what you need to say.

Joan: Again, going back to what we touched on and that is that you start to be more mindful of the

conversations that you have with people and be mindful of when you're holding back information that

you really need to be saying. So when you catch yourself holding back things that you would rather be




saying, then you have to start to say them. And again, in this case it's telling the truth of who you are.

So the first one is knowing the truth of who you are, the second one is telling the truth of who you are.

Travis: Okay. So I'm typically a very passionate person and sometimes on a topic that I'm passionate

about I tend to get more animated and more loud, and I'm not trying to steamroll anybody, is that

instructive to tell me that I should be aware of that and dial it down for the sake of bowling over people,

or--

Joan: No, not necessarily, you don't have to necessarily dial anything down. Again, if you're operating

from a positive kind and well-intentioned place, then how it's going to come across is simply

passionate.

Travis: Okay.

Joan: If you're insisting that you're right and others are wrong, or your putting others down in the

process then I would say not so good with that one. But other one here, kind of using your example is

that you might also look at a person and say, "You know what, when we touch on this topic I get really

passionate. So don't let my passion scare you off." So it's just because, again, because you have that

level of awareness about yourself, you can add that one sentence in and now you smoothed over the

situation before it even started.

Travis: Yeah, and I have to do that on some topics. I'll say, "Don't get me wrong here, it's just

something I'm passionate about."

Joan: Right, exactly that totally cool, now people have a context.

Travis: Okay, so number 4, be congruent. So that makes sense to me but let's just clarify.

Joan: Again, what I was talking about there is that your words and actions match your thoughts and

feelings. So this is the whole notion here is that you say what you mean and you mean what you say,

and you follow it through by action.

Travis: And it's very easy to be congruent when you're completely straightforward, there's no thinking

about, you know. It just unfolds naturally, right.

Joan: Right. Yup, so truth is the sunlight here.

Travis: Yeah, okay. So number five, share what you know.




Joan: And that really is I think adulthood is really all about contribution. I think that the task of

adulthood is contribution. So, once you develop and area of expertise, it's sharing, it's giving and

sharing, that's what adulthood is really all about.

Travis: Yeah, I completely agree with you. Listening to you brings a story, I'm going to slaughter the

story, but it's a story of the Indian father, or son speaking to his father and the father's telling about the

story of two wolves, the good wolf and the bad wolf.

Joan: Right, uhuh.

Travis: You know, and the kid asked him if everybody has a good wolf and a bad wolf in them then

how do you know which one is going to win. And the father answers by saying it depends on which one

you feed.

Joan: Right.

Travis: And it's such a great story because it's so true, that thoughts are the seeds of action and action

is results. And so if you, why plant poisonous Nightshade in your garden when you can plant positive

things that you can nurture and grow, right.

Joan: Absolutely true, yes.

Travis: Yeah. So listen we're getting close on time, are you ready for the lightning round?

Joan: Sure. Go for it.

Travis: Great stuff Joan, I'm telling you, there's so many things that we talk about, we could do a

couple more segments.

Joan: Well, I'm game, I love talking about this stuff, this is my life, this is my passion, so anything that

allows me to talk about these kinds of things I'm very, very grateful for.

Travis: Yeah, as you can tell I love psychology also.

Joan: Yeah, you do, and wonderful stories to enumerate and elaborate, or illuminate and elaborate.

Travis: Right. So, the first question is what book or program made an impact on you related to

business that you'd recommend and why?

Joan: There's two that I chose, one is Blue Ocean Strategy.

Travis: I love the book.

http://amzn.to/WUg5ZL




Joan: And again the subtitle on that one is how to create an uncontested market space and make the

competition irrelevant and I think partly, it's such an interesting book and I realized that I've been, at

least in my own profession, I've been going against the grain for a long time. So that this whole notion

of really thinking and doing things in a way that goes against the trend of what most people doing was

really, really helpful. A second book in that regard is Dan Roam's book called The Back of a Napkin.

Travis: I haven't heard of that one, tell me about that.

Joan: Okay, he's done a couple, his second one is Blah Blah Blah, What to do when words don't work,

and I like his work because it has to do with drawing pictures to your words and using pictures as a way

to help people understand concepts, and because I'm in the profession of training, teaching, speaking

all the time, having ways to show people visually what I’m trying to tell them conceptually was really an

important addition.

Travis: I like that, I'm excited, I'm going to put that on my To-Read book.

Joan: So I always start with the back of the napkin.

Travis: Cool. What's one of your favorite tools or pieces of technology that you've recently discovered,

if any, that you'd recommend to other business owners'?

Joan: You know, this is for lots of entrepreneurs trying to get a lot of work done. A colleague of mine

developed what she is describing as the top fiverr guide, and people are familiar with fiverr, with being

able to go there and find highly qualified professionals doing work. And it's allowed me to identify, in her

case, pre-screened folks, graphics artist, computer coders, the whole thing, website developers, you

name it. And that guide has been immensely useful for me. So it's topfiverrguide.com, if people are

interested but that's been a really useful find if you will.

Travis: Very cool. What famous quote would best summarize your belief or attitude in business?

Joan: You're going to like this; it's going to be so consistent with what we've been talking about. It's a

quote by Jim Rohn, one you've probably have heard or read many times over, and that is that “Success

is not to be pursued, it is to be attracted by the person you become. If you want to have more you must

become more.”

And again the obvious is that really it's how we develop ourselves that's at the base of everything we're

able to accomplish. And so it starts with personal and self-development to be able to go out and do the

things that you dream of.

Travis: Very, very wise words. Do you have any super powers?

http://amzn.to/188HN5n

http://topfiverrguide.com/




Joan: You know what, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure quite how you mean it but I will tell

you what popped in to my mind. I probably shouldn't say but I'm going to anyway.

Travis: No, please to do.

Joan: And just know I could never make this stuff up myself. At the beginning, at early in the year of

training 6 students intensively, which I do for the year. Probably about 6 weeks into the training they

started to call me Jedi Master, and I have enough awareness of Star Trek to know that it was a

complement, but not enough to know the real essence of the story there. But the other thing that made

me think of was that at some point midyear I said to them that-- I was spending time thinking about

what it was that I was good at. And I realize that one of the things that I'm good at is understanding the

invisible.

Because I'm understanding invisible patterns that people are expressing when they're expressing

themselves. And so what I said at that point was that understanding the invisible makes doing therapy

look like art when it's really science.

Travis: I like that, and I completely get what you're saying. I've heard it said that there's three take

aways from a person, there's things that they will say, there's things that they won't say, and then

there's things that they can't say.

Joan: Right, yeah.

Travis: And the invisible is the… what they can't say, right.

Joan: Exactly. And the goal that is obviously to bring that to light. And so, I don't know if I have a super

power or not but I guess I'm working on it if I don't.

Travis: I'm inclined to believe that you do base on what I know about you.

Joan: That's very kind, right back at you Travis. And the truth here Travis is anybody that develops an

expertise in a given area starts to develop the super power of understanding the invisible.

Travis: I agree with you, this is something I stumbled on and it's worth mentioning several times. I used

to think that genius was born was anointed, was given, and in some rare cases it is. But I think it's most

common occurrence is an accumulation of wisdom.

Joan: Right.

Travis: Applied knowledge that makes the person a genius in the process.




Joan: Right, Yup, totally agree.

Travis: Yeah. And you and I have been on that path of growth and you see it more and more, the more

you learn the more you realize how little you know.

Joan: That's so true.

Travis: So Joan, how do people connect with you?

Joan: They can reach me at drjoanrosenberg.com.

Travis: Okay.

Joan: And they can also reach me if they are-- either for a phone number, they could reach me at 310-

876-2324.

Travis: Oh, that's very kind of you.

Joan: It's a Google voice number.

Travis: And possible we may be setting up as Dr. J soon?

Joan: We will see.

Travis: Maybe, possibly?

Joan: I'm going to go by the other Dr. J.

Travis: Right, there you go. Excellent interview, can you hangout a couple more minutes?

Joan: I absolutely can, thank you so much Travis: .

Travis: You are wonderful. So listen guts, I want to remind you that you can find all the links to books

and resources mentioned in the show in the show notes. Just go to RockstarEntrepreneurNetwork.com

and click on the radio show button while you're there, and-- Well, actually, that's not the direction I want

to take you. What I want you to do, and this is a priority. We've added a little widget on the right side.

Now this is a new website and we're setting up as many resources as possible to help teach and train

you to grow your business to that next level. And we've set-up a widget on the right side and it's got a

little microphone on it, and what I want you to do is I want you to click on that, leave us a voice

message with any challenge or problem that you're having with your business. Think from the angle of

what's keeping you from going or finding that next level of success. Are you struggling with marketing,

staffing, sales, profits, it really doesn't matter, any aspect of business, just click on the send us a voice

message, and leave your name, your business type, and a problem that you're dealing with, and we'll

http://drjoanrosenberg.com/

http://www.rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com/




start answering your questions at the end of the show. As we get enough of the questions, we'll start

answering them because I feel like it's a great way to take real world problems and answer them on the

air. If you're struggling with it then there's a very high likelihood that lots of other people are struggling

with the same problems, right Joan?

Joan: Absolutely true.

Travis: Yeah, so, today I want to close the show with a quote that comes from Benjamin Franklin, and

the quote reads, "By failing to prepare, you're preparing to fail." Now the reason why that quote

compelled me to share it with you is I want to remind you to set aside some time each week, each day

if possible to hone your skills and refine your goals. The tiny, little adjustments or tiny additions to your

knowledge and your skill set completely change the path that you're on for better. The more it increases

your competence and your success and everything all rolled into one. I know you know this because

you're listening to this show. I guess I really just want to confirm that to keep doing what it is you're

doing and try to do more of it if possible. So for now this is Travis: Lane Jenkins signing off. Do you

want to say good-bye Joan?

Joan: Yes, Travis, thanks so much and I hope people will connect with me, I totally enjoyed the time

with you, thanks.

End of Interview

Travis: Yeah, me too. So to your incredible success my friend, take care.




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