Special Interest Articles: Review of Spring 2009 Programs -Inhabitants of New Dorlach -First Ladies -JFK Assassination Evidence -2

nd Annual Bird Tour

Schoharie County Caves Miscellaneous News Items Town Hall Ribbon Cutting

Individual Highlights: Fall 2009 Schedule -Sharon Springs Spa -Ancient Forests -The Cave House Books for Sale Local Graduates Honored Membership Information

The Carlisle Historical Society

August 2009

Volume 2, Issue 2

Carlisle, Schoharie County, New York Chartered 2008

Things Go Full Circle

Born and raised in

Cobleskill, local historian

Jeff O’Connor obviously

has a passion for history

and has done his

homework. He is trustee

and President of the

Schoharie County

Historical Society, an

interpreter at the Old Stone

Fort, Captain and founder

of the Old Stone Fort

Militia and author of

“Thunder of the Valley”,

an account of the Battle of

the Flockey.

Jeff prepared a talk for the

March Carlisle Historical

Society program on the

“Rascally Disaffected

Inhabitants of New

Dorlach”. Whether due to

his program’s intriguing

title or his reputation for

research and historical

accuracy, Jeff’s program

drew an unprecedented

crowd of approximately 60

folks.

His presentation can be

perhaps best summarize by

saying he gave a detailed

description and analysis of

the events and

personalities of the area in

and around Carlisle (or

what would become

Carlisle) during the time

just before and during the

American Revolution. An

understanding of life,

politics, shifting alliances

and family ties in late

eighteenth-century New

Rhinebeck provide an

explanation of how

neighbors joined forces –

or sometimes became

enemies. And events had a

way of tying in with earlier

actions and personal

commitments – leading the

conversation full circle.

The area of New

Rhinebeck existed where

Lawyersville and Carlisle

come together now. It

quickly became a very

prosperous area due to the

West Creek, and the dozen

families who lived there

did well under the King.

There were alliances made

prior to the Revolution by

these and other frontier

settlers who agreed to

come to each others’ aid if

necessary, no matter which

side individuals took (a

covenant of mutual

protection). These

alliances were tested as the

Revolution’s influence

reached into the area and

raiding parties ambushed

groups in and around New

Dorlach, New Rhinebeck,

Currytown and Schoharie.

Men would give testimony

against some of those with

whom they had previously

made agreements.

Jeff is very familiar with

his topic and has loads of

information about the

people involved: John

Mathias Brown, Sir John

Johnson, Peter Young,

Jacob Merckley, Catharine

Merckeley, Seth Henry,

Governor Clinton,

Mereness Willett, and

William Sommer, to name

a few. It was difficult to

catch all the names and

dates, so we look forward

to when Jeff writes his

next book and includes

more on this information.

50/50 Raffle Winners

The reason 50/50 Winners do so well at Carlisle Historical Society meetings

is because of the generous crowd enjoying the programs and Ray Brigg’s

superb selling technique. In March, Walt Manko won $46; Kirk Holmes,

newly returned from a tour of duty in Iraq, won $31 in April; Art Graulich

won $33 in May. Thanks for participating!

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 2 of 12

For a second time, Bill

Massoth honored the

Carlisle Historical Society

with a wonderful program.

A retired 40-year veteran

of GE, Bill is a member of

the Duanesburg Historical

Society and an avid

historian, with an arsenal

of 47 historical programs

at his fingertips. The idea

for this particular program

came from Erma

Mastrahan, Princetown

Historian, who did much

of the research. Using

slides depicting each of the

First Ladies, and

sometimes their “other-

halves” as well, Bill

described many aspects of

each woman’s life, starting

in order with Martha

Custis Washington (who

set the standard for

hostesses in New York

City, the nation’s first

capital) and ending with

Michelle Obama (whose

husband told her he

wouldn’t promise her

riches, but he would give

her an interesting life).

It seems some of the ladies

weren’t thrilled with their

husband’s choice of career

(Eliza Johnson, Andrew

Johnson’s wife),

sometimes not even aware

that their husbands had

made the decision to run

for office. Others, like

Helen Taft, urged their

husbands into working

toward the position of

President of the United

States. Edith Wilson,

Woodrow Wilson’s second

wife, went so far as to take

on the “stewardship” of

her husband’s position

when he became ill.

Often, the wives took on

“causes”…which is a very

common and well-

publicized commitment of

present-day first ladies.

We often see modern First

Ladies taking on causes

such as education, reading,

minorities, hunger,

children (Jacqueline

Kennedy) and healthcare.

Some of the causes

pursued by the earlier First

Ladies included banning

drinking and supporting

the temperance movement,

banning dancing (Sarah

Polk), taking corsets out of

fashion (Francis

Cleveland), and being an

exemplary hostess. That is

not to say that there

weren’t some early first

ladies who had an impact:

Abigail Adams was an

advocate of women’s

rights (“Remember the

Ladies!”); Dolly Madison

saved many artifacts from

the Presidential Palace

when it was burned by the

British during the War of

1812; Abigail Filmore was

an opponent of slavery;

Harriet Lang, niece to the

unmarried President

Buchanan, endowed the

Pediatric Center at Johns

Hopkins; Julia Dent Grant

was the first First Lady to

write her memoirs; Lucy

Hayes was the first to be

formally educated and she

started the Egg Roll on the

White House lawn; Lou

Henry Hoover headed the

Girl Scout movement (she

also spoke five languages

including Mandarin).

Helen Taft planted cherry

trees, Mary Todd Lincoln

was the first to be

photographed, Margaret

Taylor smoked a corncob

pipe, Elizabeth Monroe

was addicted to chocolate,

Eleanor Roosevelt served

King George and his wife

Elizabeth a picnic lunch

with hot dogs, Thelma

(Pat) Nixon worked her

way through college, Betty

Ford supported the Equal

Rights Amendment and

had breast cancer, Roslyn

Carter managed the family

peanut business and

attended cabinet meetings,

Ann Nancy Davis Reagan

opposed the ERA and

volunteered for lots of

charities, Barbara Bush

was the second woman to

be first lady and mother to

a president, Hillary Clinton

served as first lady and

senator at the same time,

Laura Bush was a librarian

and Michelle Obama was

raised in a one room

apartment in Chicago.

I’ve left out a FEW tidbits

of this fascinating and

entertaining presentation,

because I don’t want to

steal all of Mr. Massoth’s

show! For more

information about all the

first ladies (and their

famous husbands), look at

the website

www.whitehouse.gov –

there is a lot more

information!

Secrets of America’s First Ladies

Louisa Adams

Jane Pierce

Frances Folsom Cleveland

Edith Wilson

Mamie Eisenhower

Abigail Adams

Eliza McCardle Johnson

(Photos courtesy of: www.womenshistory.about.com)

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 3 of 12

was brought together to re-

examine the firearms

evidence and to locate and

interview witnesses for

each of the assassinations.

All the original evidence is

the property of and stored

by the National Archives

of the United States of

America. The rules of

evidence and importance

of physical evidence had

not been established in

1963 as they are today.

The group of 5 examiners

worked for approximately

18 months, testified to the

Senate Committee as to

their findings, and a final

report was issued in 1978,

15 years after the JFK

assassination.

The group had a mock-up

of Daley Square (the site

of the assassination of

JFK), complete with the

cars in the actual positions,

the buildings and the

terrain all to scale. This

mock-up was created

based on a home movie

filmed by Mr. Zapruder.

They know the motorcade

was proceeding at 11 mpg,

and they were able to

calculate that the first shot

was fired from a distance

of 177 feet and the last

shot was fired from a

distance of 266 feet,

therefore, all 3 shots were

fired within a length of a

football field.

The weapon used was a

6.5 mm Mannlicher-

Carcano bolt action rifle

which is an Italian made

weapon used by the Italian

military through WWII.

(Continued on page 4)

detailing how he got

involved in the House

Select Committees’ re-

investigation of the

assassinations and showing

the group some of the

evidence they examined.

He also had some items on

display, including a replica

of the gun used by Lee

Harvey Oswald, gun

cartridges, and a couple of

books written on the topic.

One of the first slides gave

an excellent example of

how criminal investigative

techniques have changed.

The slide was picture of

the presidential limousine,

taking only hours after the

shooting, showing men

(secret service agents)

washing the blood off the

car. As pointed out by

Sheriff Bates, if that had

occurred in a crime today,

those men would have

been brought up on

charges; but back then,

there was no rules

prohibiting their actions,

and no one thought to stop

them, yet evidence was

being tampered with and

removed.

The original and

immediate investigation

into the assassination

ended with the Warren

Commission Report,

which determined that

Oswald acted alone and

was the single shooter. As

we know, about an hour

after the assassination,

Officer Tibbet of the

Dallas Police stopped his

patrol car to get out and

talk with a suspicious

person. That person shot

Officer Tibbet 4 times and

then ran into a theater.

Lee Harvey Oswald was

later discovered in that

theater. Several days after

Oswald’s arrest, he was

being transferred from the

police department to court,

with much media coverage,

when Jack Ruby gained

access and shot Oswald

while America watched on

TV.

The Warren Report did not

quell the questions: Did

Oswald act alone? Was

there a conspiracy? Oswald

was known to have traveled

to Russia, his wife was from

Russia, and he was

considered to be a bit odd.

Eyewitnesses reported

hearing or seeing gunfire

from “the grassy knoll” and

from the railroad bridge.

There were the other

assassinations of Martin

Luther King and Robert

Kennedy. How was Jack

Ruby able to confront the

prisoner Lee Harvey Oswald

so easily? A Life magazine

cover from the 60’s said it

all: “Matter of Reasonable

Doubt”. Many questions

remained, and science and

investigative techniques

changed, so in 1970, the

House formed the Select

Committee on

Assassinations in an effort to

bring together experts from

various forensic

organizations to reassess the

evidence and come to a final

conclusion.

The Select Committee sent

out a request for firearms

experts. John Bates, then 35

and trained as a firearms

examiner in Albany,

submitted his resume to the

committee and was accepted.

A panel of 5 examiners . Lee Harvey Oswald was

later discovered in that

theater. Several days after

Oswald’s arrest, he was

being transferred from the

police department to court,

with much media coverage,

when Jack Ruby gained

access and shot Oswald

while America watched on

TV.

The Warren Report did not

quell the questions: Did

Oswald act alone? Was

there a consipiracy? Oswald

was known to have traveled

to Russia, his wife was from

Russia, and he was

considered to be a bit odd.

Eyewitnesses reported

hearing or seeing gunfire

from “the grassy knoll” and

from the railroad bridge.

There were the other

assassinations of Martin

Luther King and Robert

Kennedy. How was Jack

Ruby able to confront the

prisoner Lee Harvey Oswald

so easily? A Life magazine

cover from the 60’s said it

all: “Matter of Reasonable

Doubt”. Many questions

remained, and science and

investigative techniques

changed, so in 1970, the

House formed the Select

Committee on

Assassinations in an effort to

bring together experts from

various forensic

organizations to reassess the

evidence and come to a final

conclusion.

The Select Committee sent

out a request for firearms

experts. John Bates, then 35

and trained as a firearms

examiner in Albany,

submitted his resume to the

committee and was accepted.

Everyone (who was over

the age of 5) remembers

where they were and what

they were doing on

November 22, 1963 (at

work, in school,

napping…). The events of

that day still illicit

questions, theories and

speculation. Our

government has spent

millions of dollars

studying, examining,

questioning, and

interviewing data,

evidence and people.

Many have made money

selling their knowledge,

theories and memorabilia

of that day. It was one of

the most pivotal days in

American history…the day

President John F. Kennedy

was assassinated.

Science and criminal

investigative science has

changed dramatically since

the sixties. John Bates,

Schoharie County Sheriff,

was a young office with

the New York State police

in 1963. He remembers

that he was in Fonda on

radar duty when a car

pulled up, the driver

reached over and unrolled

his passenger-side window

and pointed to trooper

Bates’ radio, indicating he

should turn it on.

Although his life wouldn’t

be especially impacted yet,

down the road his career

would, for a time, revolve

around the assassinations

of JFK, Martin Luther

King, Jr. and Robert

Kennedy.

Mr. Bates presented a slide

show to the Carlisle

Historical Society at the

May, 2009 program,

Insider View of the JFK Assassination Investigation

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 4 of 12

Bates on the JFK Assassination Investigation (continued from page 3)

Oswald purchased the gun and

cartridges through mail-order, and

the weapon was found on the 6th

floor of the Texas School Book

Depository building.

In doing their analysis, the examiners

spent hours recording and

documenting everything to do with

the evidence, including packaging

(as the evidence was in storage in the

National Archives), manufacturing

information, and previous lab

analysis markings in order to check

the work done previously. Once they

were done with the physical exam of

the weapon, they fired the weapon

several times to have a “test” to use

as a standard of comparison of

evidence. Getting adequate test

results proved a bit tricky. First, they

constructed a 1-foot plywood box

packed with surgical cotton. The

first shot fired into this box ended

with the bullet exiting the side of the

box and hitting the wall. The second

shot exited the bottom of the box and

hit the floor. Next, they constructed

a 2-foot tank filled with water. With

this method, they were successful in

getting test bullets. These test bullets

were compared to the evidence using

a comparison microscope and a

micrometer, instruments still used in

forensics today.

Sheriff Bates was able to counter

several claims. First, the “pristine”

bullet found on the stretcher of

Governor John Connelly (who was in

the limousine with the Kennedy’s

and was wounded by the bullets

which passed through JFK) was not

pristine. The slide he presented

showed the side is curved, the base

flattened and the case bottom is

extruding lead. Upon examination

with the microscope, they were able

to match up individual markings.

The bullet did not have extensive

damage because it did not hit any

bone until it hit the wrist of the

governor, and by then it had been

slowed considerably since it had

passed through the president and the

governor’s bodies. The pristine

bullet and two others found in the

front seat area of the limousine were

matched to the Carcano rifle.

Comparisons made to rounds found

in the gun left in the depository

building had great correspondence

with the test shots.

Slides were also presented showing

the clothing of both the president and

the governor. They examined and

documented the holes, both

microscopically and chemically for

lead residue and for gunshot residue.

Lead residue would indicate a bullet

shot from a distance; gunshot residue

would indicate the bullet was fired

from with 3-5 feet. No gunshot

residue was found, but lead residue

was found on the holes.

We had a brief discussion about Jack

Ruby, who shot and killed Oswald,

and the oddities surrounding that

crime. An autopsy was done on

Oswald, but the bullet that was

recovered from his body was not

found by the Select Committee. The

weapon was confiscated, but never

examined by the crime lab and was

returned to Ruby’s estate and

eventual owned by Jack Ruby’s

brother. When the examiners

requested the gun be turned over for

examination, the brother was

reluctant to part with it for fear that it

would not be returned. He

eventually relented and they were

able to test it, but there was no

documentation from the scene. They

did return it to the brother, who

passed away about six or seven years

ago. When the gun was brought up

at auction, it sold for more than

$200,000. How was Ruby able to

gain such easy and close access to

Oswald? It is known that he owned

an establishment frequented by

officers of the Dallas Police

Department, and was friendly with

them. Perhaps this relationship

allowed for some laxness in the

guarding of Oswald.

The examiners were very careful in

handling the evidence and doing the

analysis – they assumed that their

work will some day be reevaluated,

perhaps using more precise

technology or in conjunction with

new evidence. They had to come to

They had to come to a conclusion

individually and as a group. They

testified before the Select

Committee, along with the other

expert groups that had been working

on different aspects of the

investigation, and a final report was

published. Mr. Bates has a copy of

this 12 volume treatise, but has never

read it.

(continued on page 5)

Photos: Kennedy Library, www.thehistoryplace.com

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 5 of 12

Ray Briggs, right, gives a passionate lecture on the Boys of Carlisle

JFK (continued from page 4)

There was a lot more information presented, but perhaps one of the most thought-provoking

parts of the program came at the very end, when Mr. Bates presented us with a list of

“similarities” between Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy:

FACT LINCOLN KENNEDY

Sons/Brothers Son Ed died at 3 years old. Brother Ed who lived to adulthood.

Son Robert lived to adulthood. Brother Robert who was

assassinated.

Elected 1860 1960

Secretary’s Name Kennedy Lincoln

Wives Mary Jackie

Both had a child who died while in they were in the White House.

Both were with their husbands when they were shot, on a Friday, in the

back of the head.

Assassins John Wilkes Booth Lee Harvey Oswald

Fired shot in a theater, found Fired shot from a warehouse, found

in a warehouse. in a theater.

Both were Southerners in their 20’s

Both have 15 letters in their names

Both were killed before they were tried

Successors Andrew Johnson Lyndon B. Johnson

Born in 1808 Born in 1908

Both served in the Senate

Interesting similarities! Thanks, John, for a fascinating and informative presentation.

MEMBERSHIP

DUES

2010 Membership dues

are “due” by October 1st

- ONLY $5, individual or

family. Dues are

accepted at meetings,

or you may mail them

to:

The Carlisle Historical

Society

PO Box 28

Carlisle, NY 12031

Make checks payable

to “The Carlisle

Historical Society”.

Please include your

name and address,

phone and email

address. Please

indicate if you would

like to receive The

Carlisle Historical

Society Newsletter via

email (and you do NOT

have dial-up).

Logo Contest and Cemetery Research Group – Participants Needed! Do you have any artistic ability? If so, come up with a logo for the historical society and submit it to the society for

consideration…Entries are due September 1, so don’t dawdle!

Bud Briggs would like to form a group to research an overgrown cemetery near the Briggs’ farm. The group will try to

identify who is buried there and do a bit of cleanup. Contact Bud Briggs if interested (234-3969).

Current Executive Board Members:

President – Jacqueline Turnquist Trustee – Art Graulich, Kim Wigen-Walton (10/2009) Vice President – Al Lehmann Trustee – Connie Costello, Bob Smith (10/2010) Treasurer – Michelle Holyoak Trustee – Allan Tillapaugh, Ray Briggs, Jr. (10/2011) Recording Secretary – Joan Sisson Town Board Member Trustee – Ed Sisson Correspondence Secretary – Steve Crapser Town Historian, Ex-Officio Trustee – Ray Briggs, Sr.

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 6 of 12

The Spa at Sharon Springs Jean Bakkom and Sandy Manko, Wednesday, September 9, 7:30 pm, Carlisle Firehouse

Ms. Bakkom and Ms. Manko will share information on the “Golden Years of the Spa - Historical Buildings and Stories of Days Gone By”.

SPECIAL: THE CARLISLE TOWN HALL RIBBON CUTTING/OPEN HOUSE – SATURDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2009. 3-6 pm. See page 7 for more information.

Ancient Forests and Champion Trees (with a bit on unusual plants and

shrubs) Fred Breglia, of the Landis Arboretum, Wednesday, October 14, 7:30 pm, Carlisle Firehouse Mr. Breglia will discuss our forests and plants. This meeting will be preceded by a short business meeting and

elections of two trustees, beginning at 7:00. All society members are encouraged to arrive at 7:00.

The Howe Caverns Museum and its Restoration Clemens McGiver, Wednesday, November 11, 7:30 pm, Carlisle Firehouse Mr. McGiver will talk to us about the Cave Museum and the restoration of “The Cave House” at Howe Caverns.

Pageant from Our Past: Fashions & Facts About Schoharie County Celebrities Presented by the Schoharie County Historical Society, Sunday Evening, November 15, DAR Building in Schoharie. (Call Carl Rhinehart at 827-4553 for more information.) The person who will be featured from the Town of Carlisle is Judge John Brown. All are welcome.

FALL 2009 PROGRAM SCHEDULE AND OTHER EVENTS –

GET OUT YOUR CALENDARS!

RIBBON CUTTING/OPEN HOUSE FOR THE NEW

CARLISLE TOWN HALL

The new Carlisle Town Hall is scheduled to be completed in October. Preliminary plans have

begun for a Ribbon Cutting/Open House event on Saturday, October 17, beginning at 3:00 pm.

After a welcome and a few speeches, a ribbon will be cut and the building will be open for

people to walk through. Refreshments will be available. Watch the Times Journal’s “Carlisle

Corner” and the My Shopper for more information. We hope to see you all there!

PLEASE NOTE: THE NEW CARLISLE TOWN HALL IS SCHEDULED TO BE OPEN IN OCTOBER, AND

THE CARLISLE HISTORICAL SOCIETY HOPES TO BE ONE OF THE FIRST GROUPS TO USE THE NEW

MULTI-PURPOSE ROOM. HOWEVER, SINCE WE ARE NOT SURE WHEN EXACTLY THE ROOM WILL

BE FURNISHED AND AVAILABLE FOR USE, EACH OF OUR FALL PROGRAMS ARE SCHEDULED TO

BE HELD IN THE CARLISLE FIREHOUSE. IF THE TOWN HALL BECOMES AVAILABLE, THERE WILL

BE A NOTE ON THE DOOR AT THE FIREHALL DIRECTING PEOPLE TO GO TO THE TOWN HALL.

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 7 of 12

Did you stop and see us at the Schoharie County Fair?

As we have done for the past several years, the Carlisle Historical

Society had a display booth setup at the county fair in Cobleskill.

Two displays – one highlighting the Bluebird Society and one

focusing on Carlisle’s bicentennial – attracted many folks. Colleen

Crofts and Ray Briggs were instrumental in organizing the event by

assembling the display boards and recruiting “Carlisle-power” to

work the booth. A big thanks to Colleen and Ray, as well as the

following people who spent many hours at the booth greeting fair-

goers, answering questions and selling the society’s history book

and cookbook: Larry and Connie Bradt, Bud Briggs, Doug and

Michelle Holyoak, Chris Keefer, Bernice Kistner, and Allan

Tillapaugh.

We had plans to create a display on the Caves of Carlisle, but we

ran out of time. If you would like to help organize the display for

next year, please let one of the board members know. Work on the

new display will start this fall.

Photos courtesy of Colleen Crofts.

Carlisle’s Second Annual Roadside Birding Tour -by Chris Keefer (photos by Chris Keefer, unless noted)

The Carlisle Historical Society’s Annual Roadside Birding Tour

netted 42 species of birds in and about Carlisle.

Seven birders in three cars made stops at the Bear Swamp on

Cemetery Road where we spotted gorgeous savannah sparrows, blue

herons in full breeding plumage, resplendent wood ducks, a northern

harrier and many others.

Our next top at the Karker (not Brown) Road woodlands produced

wood thrush, three species of woodpeckers, and ovenbird.

Because this was a “flexible endeavor” we made an unplanned stop at

the Briggs’ farm to pick up northern oriole, eastern kingbird, red-

bellied woodpecker, bobolink and a few more.

After that we wrapped up our trip to Grosvenors Corners Road to

view more bobolinks, eastern meadowlark and little green (green-

backed) heron. Many thanks to Pat Smith and the Presbyterian

Church for accommodating our post-tour refreshments.

Above: Birders look through scopes to

zero-in on birds.

Left: Wood Ducks (Menke,

Dave/USFWS), Bobolink (Marie Read),

Red-Bellied Woodpecker (Gary W. Carter), Eastern Kingbird (B. L.

Sullivan)

Carlisle Cookbook and History Book on Sale!

“From Carlisle’s Kitchens”, the

cookbook put together by the

historical society, is now available.

Garnering rave reviews, the

cookbook is a compilation of recipes

from folks in and around Carlisle.

With over 170 recipes, and over 170

pages, the cookbook holds something

for everyone. As a bonus, there are

lots of stories and quotes about the

recipes and about food that use to be

very common in Schoharie County.

Having sold all 500 first editions of

“History of the Town of Carlisle”,

the historical society had more

printed – with a few (only 4!)

corrections. With over 350 pages, it

is packed with lots of interesting

stories and pictures.

Interested in getting a copy of

either book? Here is what you

need to know:

The cookbook is $16.20 and the

history book price remained

unchanged at $27 (tax included)

and is available from either Ray

Briggs (234-3969) or Jacqueline

Turnquist (234-3041).

Both books make great gifts – for

you or someone else. You don’t

need to be from Carlisle to enjoy

either book.

All proceeds go to the historical

society. Thank you for your

support!

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 8 of 12

Local Students Awarded

for their Achievement

Two local high school students were

given a cash gift from the Carlisle

Historical Society to recognize their

efforts. Ashley Johnson, from Lykers

Road, graduated Valedictorian of

Cobleskill-Richmondville High School

in June. Tamara Euler from

Argusville, was Salutatorian at Sharon

Springs High School.

The historical society will be looking

into the possibility of creating a

scholarship for eligible students from

Carlisle in the future.

Miscellaneous News Items

Gerry Stoner of the Gilboa Historical Society would like people to know that they can access their newsletter, past articles, audio files, interviews, pictures and other information at

http://www.gilboahome.com, as well as www.northerncatskillshistory.com . Also, he is always looking for

interesting articles, so if you have something of historical interest that you think might be appropriate,

please contact him at www.northerncatskillshistory.com or gerrys@northerncatskillshistory.com

The property with the Rock House is currently for sale. There is concern that once it is sold, access to the Rock House may be denied. Is there interest in pursuing some sort of right-of-way? Contact Ray Briggs.

Scott Hager of Georgia contacted us looking for information on his ancestor, Getty Hager Brown. Getty

was the wife John M. Brown and is buried in the Carlisle Cemetery. He has a website on

www.tribalpages.com (look under Hager/McClanahan) with an abundance of information on the Hager

family, originally from Schoharie. This website is for genealogists to create web pages with the

information they have uncovered. Check it out.

In May, Professor Cash from SUNY Cobleskill went to the top of Barrouck Zourie to look for Pinksters (wild Azaleas) with Ray and Bud Briggs. They were able to find some small samples of this rare and

endangered plant. The professor and the Briggs would like to identify, protect and perhaps propagate the

Pinksters.

In June, two Masters Degree students from Albany gave a presentation on their Route 20 research. They

were looking at the history of tourism along Route 20 from Duanesburg to Richfield Springs and the

effects the New York State Thruway had on those businesses. For their class project, they created a

roughly 20 minute video of interviews and old photos. After the video documentary presentation, they

hosted a discussion session which included the audience’s feedback on the video as well as a discussion of

the future of Route 20. They hope to expand on the video over the coming year and have a copy to present

to the historical society when it is completed.

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 9 of 12

The Sun, New York, N.Y., 12 Dec. 1886, page 6

THE CAVES OF SCHOHARIE

A county full of curious caverns in central New York

The Wonders of Ball’s Cavern, which Only a Dozen Persons

Have Ever Explored—The Perils of McFlail’s Cave—Bottomless

Pits.

[Chuck Porter’s note: Original spelling has been retained, but

the account has been broken into extra paragraphs. My

comments are italicized in brackets.]

CARLISLE, Schoharie county, Dec. 8.—It is doubtful whether there is another county in the Union which

possesses so many natural curiosities in the way of

caverns as the county of Schoharie, New York. The

geological composition of the county is of the more

recent formations, limestone strata predominating.

These soft strata, having been subjected for ages to the

disintegrating action of the numerous streams of water

that abound in the region, have entirely disappeared in

many localities, leaving in their places caverns miles

in extent, steep and narrow fissures that lead no one

knows whither, and curiously formed and fathomless

openings yawning in the ground. The beginnings and

endings of the many streams that have hewn the caverns

in the subterranean rocks are shrouded in impenetrable

mystery. There are probably a hundred of these great

cavities in the county, to explore which no attempt has

ever been made, while there are many others whose interiors are familiar to the more courageous and

adventurous of the dwellers in their vicinity.

One of these at least—Howe’s Cave, in Schoharie

township—has a world-wide fame. This great

subterranean curiosity is so well known, in fact, that no

newspaper description of it is necessary. Its original

name was Otsgaragee Cavern, and since its first

exploration by Lester Howe, in 1842, entrance to it has

been made easy, and its depths have been lighted by gas.

A more wonderful cave than Howe’s is Ball’s, called

by some Gebhardt’s Cavern. It is four miles east of

Schoharie village, and was discovered by Simeon Ball

in 1831. It was not explored for some months

afterward, and the descent to it was so difficult and

dangerous that but comparatively few persons have

ever visited its depths.

The entrance to Ball’s Cave is first by a perpendicular

descent through the rocks for a distance of seventy-

Old Newspaper Article on Schoharie Caves Raises Questions

The following reprint of a fascinating newspaper article from 1886 was sent to me from Chuck Porter of the

Northeastern Cave Conservancy. He has made several comments (in brackets) throughout the article and needs

help clarifying some of his questions. Can any of you help him?

five feet. Then a more gradual descent of thirty feet brings the

visitor to the shore of a rather sluggish stream. The descent

thus far is made by ropes.

The remainder of the journey into the cave is by boat. The

stream is about four feet wide and two feet deep at the start,

but as it gets further in the earth it widens into lakes, some of

them thirty feet wide, and showing soundings in places fully

as deep as the lakes are wide. There are fourteen of these

lakes. They are formed by the projection into the stream at

intervals of circular dams or walls of soft calcareous rock.

The water breaks over the dams by falls that fill the chambers

with weird sounds, and by a continuous and rapid descent the

stream leads to a distance of two miles from the entrance of

the cave and to a depth of two hundred feet from the surface.

The cavern is made up of small apartments, the lofty

ceilings of which are hung with magnificent stalactitic

specimens. These are especially beautiful in the

amphitheatre, where the explorable portions of the cave

terminate—a large apartment, with the floors depressed

in the centre and walls 100 feet high. The stream

continues from this grand amphitheatre through low, narrow passageways, which no one has yet been bold

enough to follow.

The first persons who ever undertook to explore this

dangerous cavern were John Gebhardt, Wm. Hubbard,

and John Branch. Finding that thorough exploration

could not be made without boats, Gebhardt had two

made for the purpose, and lowered them into the depths.

Several prominent citizens of the county accompanied

him on this trip to the unknown region. They found the

walls covered with a material resembling whitewash.

The geological specimens they brought back with them

are among the rarest known to science. Probably not

more than a dozen persons have visited this curious

cavern since the pioneer exploration. [See an account of the

1831 exploration of Balls (now Gage) Cave in the December

2003 Caver.] The towns of this county especially noted for the

possession of these remarkable caverns are Carlisle,

Schoharie, and Cobleskill. Not a few of the caves are

natural ice houses, wherein ice has been preserved

through all seasons for centuries. One of these is the “Ice

Hole,” near Grosvern’s Corners. This is an isolated

cavern, where the temperature never rises above the

(Continued on page 10)

freezing point. The low temperature makes extended

exploration extremely inconvenient, but venturesome

persons have entered it a long distance and discovered

a frozen lake with a surface like glass, and deep, icy

chasms, apparently fathomless. There are several of

these ice caverns in Carlisle township. [Reports of an

extensive cave and underground lake (but no ice) near

Grosvenors Corners are in the Van Voris manuscript

and the 1958 Schoharie Guide.]

Not far from Carlisle village, south of it, is a curious cave known as the “Rock House.” This is easy of

access. It is about forty feet square. A turbulent stream

flows through it and disappears in a number of dark

openings which have never been explored. The roof of

this cavern is apparently a stratum of slate, and light is

let into the cave through several large fissures in it.

Many stone implements, rude earthen jars, and warlike

weapons were found in the Rock House by its early

explorers. When the Indians still held possession of

this region the cave was a favorite retreat to them, and

long after the Revolution human skeletons were found

in its depths. [In 1989 and ‘90 John Schweyen and

others dove through several sumps and traveled 1200

feet towards Levys Cave. They found a 30-foot drop

and high canyon passage, but turned back at the

fourth sump, a cramped but continuing zero-visibility

slot. No survey was ever made. Some 1940s pictures of

Rockhouse Cave are in the December 2008 Caver.]

Not far from the Rock House is Sellick’s Cave, named

after a man who was the first to enter it many years

ago. This cavern is composed of a number of square

chambers, with very high walls and jagged ceilings.

These chambers are connected with each other by

openings in the walls. In one of them the floor is

hollowed out like a basin, and during rainy seasons

this basin becomes a pool of water from five to eight

feet deep. The water rises and disappears gradually.

Sellick’s Cave is easily entered and its exploration is

attended with no danger. [The entrance is no longer

very easy.]

Such is not the case, however, with McFlail’s Cave,

near Carlisle Centre. This is rarely if ever visited,

owing to the peril of its exploration. Its discovery and

the first attempt at exploration was attended by a tragedy—Alexander McFlail, a venturesome

Scotchman, its discoverer, losing his life in it in 1854

by falling from a jutting rock, on which he was

creeping to get around an obstruction in a chamber he

was exploring. He was alone in the cavern, and, being

absent a day and a night, some courageous young men

went in to look for him. His dead body was found

lying on the edge of a pool of water at the foot of the

high ledge. One of the young men was let down with

ropes, and the body was hoisted out of the pool. [This

differs from 1854 newspaper accounts, as well as from

the usually accepted name of Thomas McFail. There

are several versions of McFail's death.]

McFlail’s Cave is a series of narrow passages opening

into irregularly-shaped chambers, and coursed by

rapid streams, with here and there a small lake, fathomless pits, and steep, ragged descents. Not a few

credulous natives declare that the lake is haunted, and

those who have ventured into its depths say that the

weird responses a shout awakens among its damp

aisles and openings might easily be taken for the

voices of unearthly dwellers.

Two miles from the village of Schoharie is a cave

which was discovered by James Nethaway in 1836. It

is of large extent, abounds in streams and lakes and

numerous apartments; but as it cannot be reached

except by a dangerous perpendicular descent, only

very few persons have ever visited it. It has never been

explored for any distance except once, and that was

soon after its discovery in 1836, when John Gebhardt

and John E. Bonney followed its intricate and perilous

tunnels and passageways for nearly a mile. Neither of

these explorers would ever enter the cave again. [This may be a conflation of reports on Balls Cave and

Veenfliets Cave, both in town of Schoharie. Or is it

Lasells Hellhole on Terrace Mtn?]

In hundreds of places in the upper and central portion

of Schoharie county wagons passing along the roads

or blows struck upon the ground produce cavernous

sounds similar to that given forth by blows on an

empty hogshead. The Lutheran church at

Lawyersville, the Union Church at Schultz’s Corners,

and several schoolhouses in the vicinity stand on flat

rocks, beneath which the earth is hollow.

There are many caverns in the neighborhood of

Carlisle, to enter which it is necessary for the visitor to

let himself down by ropes through perpendicular

openings from 20 to 100 feet deep. Some of these

approaches to subterranean depths have straight walls from top to bottom, while others are funnel shaped,

and others still formed like an immense hour-glass

contracted in the centre and with funnel-shaped

openings on the surface and in the cave. A striking

peculiarity of these deep caverns is the noise of falling

water that is heard coming through openings in the

rocky walls from localities it is impossible to reach.

There are passageways leading from chamber to

(Continued on page 11)

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 10 of 12 (Continued from page 9)

(Continued from page 10)

chamber, which can only be followed by crawling

on hands and knees. In one of these caves a stream

of water spouts out of a circular opening in the rock

ten feet from the floor and six inches in diameter. It

tumbles down the rough side of the cave, a miniature

waterfall, and joins the stream that flows through the

cavern. This curious spouting of water, it is

supposed, comes from a subterranean creek, which

has a bed several feet higher than the one in the

cavern. [Where is this? Bensons Cave?]

Another strange feature of these underground

recesses are the bottomless pits that abound. These

are openings in the floor, some of them ten feet

across, and as round as though they had been bored

in the rock with a huge drill. Many of them are fathomless. Some are filled up with water, others are

dry. Corridors, narrow and low, run in all directions,

and in their labyrinth lies great danger to the

explorer, and an insuperable obstacle to thorough

investigation of the mysteries of these caves.

A man named Samuel or Lemuel Pool was lost in

one of these dangerous hour-glass caverns in 1838.

He visited the cave with two companions. They

carried five torches, and holding one of these in his

hand, Pool crept into one of the narrow and crooked

passageways for the purpose of reaching an invisible

waterfall, the roar of which could be heard as though

just beyond the mouth of the passage. His

companions saw his torch gradually disappear in the

aperture, and waited for hours for his return. He

never came back, and nothing was ever heard of him

again. [This could be the basis of a rumor, still extant in the 1940s, of a young farm worker who had

once swung down into Hanors Cave on a rope and

was never seen again.]

The openings of these surface entrances to caverns

being in the fields, and in some instances near the

houses of farmers, they are enclosed with strong

fences, for many horses and cattle were formerly lost

by falling into the pits. Some of the openings are

seventy-five feet in diameter. In times of big freshets

the streams running through the underlying channels

are frequently swollen to such proportions that they

not only fill the caves, but overflow at the surface

entrances and flood hundreds of acres of surrounding

country, forming lakes that are sometimes months in

subsiding. Farm houses originally built near these

vents for subterranean floods have had to be

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 11 of 12

removed to safer places to escape the water. One

family living in close proximity to a cave of this kind

in 1869 was forced to fly to the second story of the

house to escape the rapid rise of water from the earth,

and were removed from their dangerous situation in

boats.

In the lower part of Carlisle township a stream large

enough to run several mills comes out of the rocks.

After a rapid course of two miles it disappears in the surface opening of one of these caves. The first settlers

who came into this region thought that this stream fed

some underground lake, and did not appear again. An

immense spring of clear cold water, its outlet being a

good-sized brook, was another wonder those settlers

found three miles distant from the spot where the

stream so suddenly dropped into the earth. The spring

is now in the town of Cobleskill, on the old Becker

farm. [Now known as Doc Shauls Spring]

Soon after the country about here was settled a

sawmill was built on Sinking Creek, and people who

lived near the Great Spring began to notice that

quantities of sawdust and pieces of wood appeared in

the spring. This led to the reasonable theory that the

spring was formed by the lost water of the creek, or

had some connection with it. All doubt as to the

correctness of this theory was removed one day in a remarkable manner. A woman had hung out her wash

in a yard not far from the spot where the creek entered

the ground. The day was windy, and two or three

garments were blown from the line, and were carried

into the stream. Before they could be reached they

were swept out of sight in the entrance to the cavern.

A few days afterward these same garments were found

in Becker’s spring. [Both Cave Mistake and the

clogged insurgence near Lawyersville are 3 miles

from Doc Shauls and have 2-mile feeders. But the

Lawyersville stream doesn’t rise in Carlisle. Doolittles

Cave does, but it has a short infeeder. Where does

such a large stream emerge?]

By similar means it was found that other streams in

the neighborhood, whose waters disappeared in the

same way, reappeared in other localities, one having an underground course of seven miles. Another

stream, which rises in Howe’s Cave, widens into a

large lake, and, flowing a hundred yards or so further

in the cave, drops out of sight in an opening in the

floor. Half a mile from the cave its waters come to the

light of day, and, flowing for a mile, empty into

Schoharie Creek.

The Carlisle Historical Society PO Box 28 Carlisle, NY 12031

The Carlisle Historical Society is a non-profit organization seeking to

promote the history of Carlisle and the surrounding region as well as

highlighting other topics of interest to the local community. Chartered

in March, 2008, the society features a minimum of 6 programs a year

– March, April, May, September, October and November. Our

programs are free and open to the public, and include refreshments.

Unless otherwise noted, all programs are currently presented at the

Carlisle Firehouse, Route 20, on the second Wednesday of the month

at 7:30 pm. However, once the New Town Hall on Crommie Road is

completed (scheduled for October, 2009), our meetings will be held

there in the Community Room.

Although our programs are free, annual membership is $5 for

individuals and families who wish to support the society and be

members. Membership includes two newsletters per year and voting

privileges. Membership dues are collected beginning with the

September program. You may mail in your dues to The Carlisle

Historical Society, PO Box 28, Carlisle, NY 12031, or pay them at

any meeting.

Because we are non-profit, any contributions made to the society are

greatly appreciated and are tax-deductible. The society can be

contacted either by mail (PO Box 28, Carlisle, NY 12031), e-mail

(carlislehistoricalsociety@gmail.com) or at 234-3041.

The Carlisle Historical Society Page 12 of 12

The Carlisle Historical Society

PO Box 28

Carlisle, NY 12031

E-Mail: carlislehistoricalsociety@gmail.com

We meet the 2nd Wednesday of the month (March, April, May,

September, October, November) 7:30 pm

Carlisle Firehouse

Refreshments are always served and all are welcome