This article was downloaded by: [University of Kent]On: 26 November 2014, At: 10:35Publisher: RoutledgeInforma Ltd Registered in England and Wales Registered Number: 1072954 Registered office: Mortimer House,37-41 Mortimer Street, London W1T 3JH, UK

Art JournalPublication details, including instructions for authors and subscription information:http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/rcaj20

Teaching after the EndDaniel Joseph Martinez & David Levi StraussPublished online: 05 Aug 2014.

To cite this article: Daniel Joseph Martinez & David Levi Strauss (2005) Teaching after the End, Art Journal, 64:3, 28-45, DOI:10.1080/00043249.2005.10792836

To link to this article: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00043249.2005.10792836

PLEASE SCROLL DOWN FOR ARTICLE

Taylor & Francis makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of all the information (the “Content”) containedin the publications on our platform. However, Taylor & Francis, our agents, and our licensors make norepresentations or warranties whatsoever as to the accuracy, completeness, or suitability for any purpose of theContent. Any opinions and views expressed in this publication are the opinions and views of the authors, andare not the views of or endorsed by Taylor & Francis. The accuracy of the Content should not be relied upon andshould be independently verified with primary sources of information. Taylor and Francis shall not be liable forany losses, actions, claims, proceedings, demands, costs, expenses, damages, and other liabilities whatsoeveror howsoever caused arising directly or indirectly in connection with, in relation to or arising out of the use ofthe Content.

This article may be used for research, teaching, and private study purposes. Any substantial or systematicreproduction, redistribution, reselling, loan, sub-licensing, systematic supply, or distribution in anyform to anyone is expressly forbidden. Terms & Conditions of access and use can be found at http://www.tandfonline.com/page/terms-and-conditions

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

David Levi Strauss andDaniel Joseph Martinez

TeachingAfter the End

The conversation from which this article is excerpted took place onFebruary 4, 2005. in a telephonecall between NewYork (SUlIUSS) and San Antonio (Martinez).This piece is the conclusion ofa three­part series in Art Journal.

David Levi Strauss: We ended our last conversation with Pynchon's warningthat if they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry

about the answers anymore. So I'd like to begin this time by

trying to ask some better questions about art and pedagogy. Artschools and MFA programs are currently inundated with appli­cants and overflowing with graduates. Why do so many youngpeople today want to be artists? How does the fact that almostall young artists are now university-trained affect the kind ofart they make? And how do you teach artists?

The \maps~ thisc-.don docum.tt wortcs by artists who wereonce students of DanIel J.MartInez at theUnlYenlty of CalIfornIa, Irvine (TuWra,AIYaNz, SandrMs, Lee. lind Lam). lind ofDavid LevI Strauss at Bard Col.... (Chan.Swartz, Gottesman. Morw.lInd KKzynsId).

Kara TuWra,A Leaon In FrwIt_H_ toKaep the Soul from AtpIryxlGd.., on Its OwnVomit I H_nn~ ell NardIIuI nnusCha..... 8cIudeialre on 8cIubeNGu In ctIMinor. lOGS. f1berJ1us, acoustic sound­proofln. foam. bronze. rope......... 56 x10 In.dlam.(142.1 x 76.1 cm);pIano c0m­

position 17 min••19 sec. (artwork C KaraTuWra,photop"aph by Spencer Hoo)

Daniel Joseph Martinez: Those are big questions, and they overlap. It is a curi­

ous thing that there is such a large population of art students currently in graduateschools. I wonder if the popularity of art school suggests that the way you become

an artist is by going to school. And I wonder if this popularity is actually a result ofthe production ofculture in the museums and galleries, and the way the market­place functions in terms of the crisis of meaning in the representation of ideas thatwe have talked about before. Is it possible that there has been a trickle-down effect,

in the sense that art is seen as entertainment, as something that is popular, accept­able, having to do with leisure time and life-style choices? Art in this sense hasless to do with the mining of meaning and the representation of ideas that havethe potential to be transformational, to affect or challenge people, to call thingsinto question. It seems to me that when things become this popular it is becausethey have become fashionable. And when something becomes fashionable, it iseasy. So people go to graduate school and everyone comes out an artist.

Strauss: I think that's part of it, but I think there is something else going on aswell that is more fundamental and potentially more far-reaching. My daughteris fiftteen years old, and she and her friends talk about going to art school, notbecause they think it is fashionable, but because, in the midst of everything elsethat is going on in the world, art is the one thing they care about (in my daugh­

ter's case. it's art and writing). It is the one thing that is different from the nor­mative spiel of consumerism with which they are continually being bombarded.

Martinez: I don't know your daughter well, but just from knowing you and

your family, I think she might be an exception. She has been sensitized to thekind of motivation you talk about. Perhaps this is my cynicism to some degree,but having traveled through many art schools and MFA programs, and visitingstudents' studios and talking to them, and looking at what they are producing.I wonder if that's what they're looking for.

Strauss: That leads to the next question. All of these young artists are therein their studios, together, making art. How does this influence the kind of artbeing made?

Martinez: I'm very excited being around students, but I'm often disappointedat the same time. A lot of the work that I see is trying to tackle problems and

19 U'tjounW

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

I. At this time of this convenation. Martinez wasan artist-in-residence at ArtPace in San Antonio.

questions that are fundamentally attached to the artist's success in the market.The work is likable, but I see less experimentation, less risk, and I see less workthat is clearly trying to set itself apart from the general tone of work being made.I guess I feel that a lot of the work I see is very safe, very generalized, and conse­quently much of it is uninteresting to me. When you do see somebody who isworking on a particular question in the work, you can tell what they're thinkingabout, their motivations and behavior, and that they're thinking about somethingmuch greater than themselves or their individual success. I don't know if this isentirely clear ...

Strauss: Let's talk about what you do, in your own situation. In our earlier con­versation, we said that the only effective antidote to fundamentalism is educa­tion, but in the current political climate we have to be clear about what we meanby education, since all of these terms are being redefined. George Bush was the"education president" before he became the permanent war president. LauraBush is for education. Lynne Cheney is for education. So what is different aboutyour kind of education, your pedagogical practice? When you talk about teach­ing, you are the most idealistic about what can happen. So what do you try todo as a teacher, teaching artists?

Martinez: I think we both believe that human beings should be in a constantstate or process of education. One should always be involved in improving one­self and never rest from that. This is distinct from the "no child left behind"approach, where there is a quantification of education through testing and man­dates in order to reach a "democratic" mean. I have heard many, many teachers

complain about the manipulation of test scores, the rules and regulationsattached to funding, and the privatization of education here in Texas. I How doyou clarify the difference between this and genuinely exciting people aboutwanting to be educated? People have eyes and they think they can see.They don'tthink they have to train their eyes to see.They have ears and therefore can hear.They don't have to train their ears to hear. It's as if things were naturally assignedto them to be able to exist in the world.

This is a difficult question, David. I have thought about this a lot. I under­stand it better in my heart than I can explain it. When we talk about educationand the potential for what can happen in the classroom, there is somethingmiraculous and organic that can happen. Education is based on a series of rela­tionships with students who are willing to place themselves in positions of trust.And the trust between a group of students and their teacher is that there is anexchange taking place, there is information being shared. I don't know if youcan teach anyone how to be an artist. I think you can expose them to ideas andhelp to bring them through different processes, to open themselves to ideas, toaugment their behavior and thinking patterns to allow them to be curious aboutthe world they live in, and to be problem-solvers. I have a genuine and radicalidealism about what can happen in the classroom. This is not speculative. I havebeen teaching for fifteen years aDd I have observed this.You can change thecourse of individual lives.

Strauss: One on one, one by one. I think that one of the principal reasons peo­ple are drawn to art school is that it is an ontological haven for young artists and

30 FALL lOOS

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

s.uI Atvvu, PrfmCIryv.ntura In~....."., or ",."" My Panu willie Wearln, aCoyote Pelt (PftaM 1.1).2004. dllital print(artwork 0 Saul AMINz)

JI anjounW

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

A.ron ........FontottIc GnrrIfIc«Ions of...CaredAII RIJM, 2004, wood.IUbwoofen,ampliflwl.CD .AmwicIIn pop -... 15 x 60 x 60 In. (la.1x 152.4 x 152.4 an)(..-twork 0 A.ron~)

In incidents IUChu thole at P1uwna City,atWKo,Tau. and at Guananamo .."the UnItiMI ItaIM~ has UNCIAmwicIIn pop ICNlp u~ ofpsy­cfIoIoskaI-mr.. SIx of tl-.1CNlp_'"Welcome to the JunIIe" by G.- N'"-.un- Bootsw.n Made forWaIdnI" by N8ncy SInatra,"1~You"from the a.e.vIsIon show 8arney fIfHIFrtencb, "Bodies" by DrvwnInI Pool,"EnterSandman" by MetaIIIca, and "Thes-r­SIrHC'fheme 1onI."

writers. It is a safe place where attention is lavished on you by older. more expe­rienced practitioners and where you can find a community of people that youcan work with and trust. It is a platform on which to build a laboratory of prac­tice, both social and artistic.

You were very involved with site-specific public art and community-based

initiatives in the 1990S with MaryJane Jacob and others. z Do you think thatwhen those activities were no longer possible. for many reasons that we have

discussed before, do you think that some of those same aspirations were trans­ferred onto your teaching?

Martinez: That is an astute observation that I would amplify one degree further.As this extremely active social space began to dissipate. or the ability to be effec­tive in this arena dissipated. I also started to notice that there was a communityor a constituency that was consistently left out of the discourse. that needed to

have attention paid to them. and that group of people was artists. That's one ofthe reasons that Deep River was started. J The community that actually needed

some attention. love. understanding. and compassion was that community aroundand for artists. I think that this connected strongly with teaching. I often say thatthe last place left for radical politics in the United States is the classroom. Even

in the current climate. this can happen because of the qualities you identified:

community. safety. trust. exchange. This can occur even in the most rigid oftimes and environments. Perhaps. like your daughter. people want to go to artschool simply because it is worth their time and energy.

22 FALL zoos

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

II ),

./

Erin "Ins F........WcriInf Out,2003 on ...,....43 x 36 In. (I 09.2 xfl.4 an) (artwortc 0 Erin "Ins~. photo­........ by DavId LoftIoJ)

JJ artjounW

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

Steven Lam, DeIpenne Anempu In Maldn,Somethln, out of NotItlnr:T-m onIIIef1t1metteProctIce, 2004-05, detail ofInstaIladon, Unl¥enlty Art Gallery,Unl¥enlty of CalIfomIa, Irvine, video stillof WerfdPfety,,~ .. video cart fromDept. of Studio Art mounted on the wall,TV,DYD. color,sound,]O mlno (artwvrtco Steven Lam, photoinph by ChristineNpyen)

2. See especiallyCulture inAction: A Public ArtProgram of Sculprure Chicago, curated by MaryJaneJacob (Seattle: BayPress, 1995).with essaysbyJacob. Michael Brenson. and Eva M.Olson: TheThings You See When You Don't Hove a Grenade!ed. DanielJoseph Martinez.with writings byDavid levi Strauss, Coco Fusco.MaryJane Jacob.SusanOtto, VictorZamudio-Taylor. RobertoBedoya. and Martinez (Santa Monica:Smart ArtPress, 1996):Points ofEntry: TheThtee Rivers ArtsFestival in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh:Three RiversArts Festival. 1997),with essaysbyDavid Levi Strauss. MaryJaneJacob. and RobertoBedoya:and Conversations at theCastle: ChangingAudiences and Contempon:Jry Art ArtsFestival ofAtlanta. ed. MaryJane Jacob with Michael Brenson(Cambridge. MA: MITPress. 1998).3. Deep Riverwas an artists' exhibition space at712 Traction Avenue in downtown LosAngelesthat operated from 1997to 2002.<t. From an interview conducted on November 8.1975. a few hours before Pasolini died. and pub­lishedin TuttDlibri. Quoted in Andrea Zanzotto."Pedagogy." trans. BeverlyAllen.in PierPaoloPosoIini: ThePoetics ofHeresy. ed. BeverlyAllen(Saratoga. CA:Anma Ubri. 1982).30.5. "Over here. Imagination. Over there. Power."wrote Herbert Muschampaboutthe conflictbetween architects and corporate developersover plans for rebuildingat Ground Zero inLower Manhattan. "Power. Imagination. and NewYork's Future." New YOlk TItTleS. October 28.2001.6. The 1996symposiumJoseph 8euys and theArtistos Activist was a collaboration between theThree RiversArts Festival and the Andy WarholMuseum.Among the participants were PamelaKort. Ann Temkin.Ronald Feldman.RichardDemarco. David Mendoza, Fred Wilson. DanielJ.Martinez.FaithWilding,and Gregg Bordowitz.Quoted in David Levi Strauss. "Coming to thePoint at ThreeRivers:Art/Public/Community.What Do Artists Want!" in Between Dog& Wolf:Essays onArtand Politics (Brooklyn: Autonomedia.1999).138.

Strauss: Right, this is the kind of place where the things she is interested in­

free inquiry, critical thinking, expanding boundaries of thought and experi­

ence-are encouraged. She doesn't see those things being encouraged in other

places. It is important, given the current political situation in this country, to

remember what is at stake politically in different models of education. In the last

interview he did before he was killed, Pier Paolo Pasolini said, "Power is a sys­

tem of education that divides us into the subjugated and subjugators ... a Singleeducational system that forms us all, from the so-called ruling classes to the

poor.'o. So it is not like you can have education or not. We're all being educated

under the terms of power! SToput in place a different educational model that

is not based on this, but on something else-creativity, respect, mutual aid-is

an enormous task. But at least it is one area where it is still possible to work to

change things and to ask these larger questions. At the classroom or studio level,

it is still a place where things can happen-a utopian situation, a "temporary

autonomous zone."

Martinez: This is my dilemma. I believe absolutely in that utopian space, that

autonomous zone that you describe. At the same time, there is still a degree of

protective cynicism. But you help people, regardless. If people ask you for help,

you help them.

Strauss: The reason you keep returning to this model of the classroom (as a

place to reclassify and make a new valuation) is because it can act as a free zone.You can work there. But when you get outside the classroom or studio and into

the machinations of the larger institution, then you are talking about something

else. You're talking about, for instance, the scam. These young people (or their

parents) are paying large tuitions and are being told that they will go out there

and make money and art. But the truth is that most of them, including many ofthe really good ones, won't be able to do this.

Martinez:Yes, they're being told lies. I'm described as being very tough in the

classroom. I am very candid with students in my descriptions of circumstances

that I observe. So people see that as being very tough. The reason I am like that

is, well, why should we be afraid to engage in the pragmatic realities of the

world we exist in? Why should we shy away from this? Why don't we deal with

it and try to evolve into artists who have the capacity to not lose our poetry­not lose the subtlety, not lose the sublime nature of the construction of meaning

that we desire? Can we not protect that and still have enough self-knowledge to

acquire the armor required to work in what is often a genuinely hostile environ­

ment? That's what we're talking about. You have young, sensitive artists at the

most difficult time of their lives, and people don't tell them the truth. My job is

to prepare them, to help them mature, and to provide them with the physical

and intellectual tools to become an artist.

Strauss: At the Joseph Beuys symposium held at the Andy Warhol Museum inPittsburgh a few years ago, you tilled about Beuys's ongoing relevance, and you

said that Beuys didn't say "'learn how to cut a piece of wood first: He said, 'have

an idea first.' Once you've got an idea. the rest is simple."6

In times past, artists didn't receive liberal-arts educations. They were taught

their trades as artisans in commercial workshops and in apprenticeships. Liberal

J4 FALL lOOS

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

) 5 art jolll'lUl

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

Paul C...... 1tI11 from~ (flndyJfI(terlSoOOO Yeanof~fterHenry Derpr. CItarfaFourier, 2003, c1111ta1animation, color, ---. and-. IImin.. :J5 Me. (artwork C Paul Chan, photo­........ provkIecI by G,.... Naftall Gallery)

7. ManRaynoted that hisart was •designed toamuse. bewilder. annoy.or to inspirereflection.but not to arouse admirationfor any technicalexcellence.... The streets are full of admirablecraftsmen. but so few practical dreamers.· ManRay. introduction to Exhibition Man Ray. exh. cat.(New Yoric JulienLevyGallery. 1945).n.p.Martinezfirstencountered this quote in a reviewina newspapersome twenty yearsago and car­ries the yellowedclipping in hiswallet to this day.

arts were not bound to the necessity of learning a trade. It occurs to me that

today many art schools (and also curatorial programs) are moving back to that

older model. They are really like trade schools, specialized training for artists.

And there is an argument to be made for that. There is so much to know about

the trade in order to make a living or even survive in the field. So why shouldn't

art schools just concentrate on this and forget about "ideas"?

Martinez: I'm not suggesting that artists shouldn't learn how to draw or to use

a camera or other tools of the trade. But if a person has no capacity to engage

their imagination. and no critical perspective with which to contextualize the

fruits of that imagination, then they have no sense of responsibility. no generos­

ity, no respect, no discipline. no way to know how to take ideas and put them

to use. and it doesn't matter how great their exposures are, or how beautiful

the colors are, or how sharp the forty-five-degree angle is on the piece of wood

they just cut. It won't make any difference. Man Ray said, "The streets are full

of admirable craftsmen, but so few practical dreamers,"? There are many people

who are technically good at what they do. But can they make art? Can they make

works that actually affect people. that change their lives. that bum a hole into the

soul. that cannot be escaped in your daydreams or nightmares. that become a

part of you?

Strauss: Maurizio Cattelan was overheard talking to friends at one of his open­

ings, apologizing for his phenomenal success in the art market by saying. "I am

just really good at playing the game." So if it is a game. shouldn't all of one's

resources be dedicated to learning to play that game well, and forget about get­

ting a liberal education? If you just want to learn how to play the game, the best

thing you can do is to play it a lot. You don't need to go to school for that. If

)6 fALL lOOS

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

that's what you want, you should do what Jeff Koons did and work on Wall

Street to train, or go get an MBA, not an MFA. Again, we come to this questionof the remainder. After we have come to the end and everything is finished, whathas been left out of the account? Shouldn't we just learn to play the game well,to win? What else is there?

Martinez: I am not sure that we can or should teach artists to want to be suc­cessful in the marketplace. A possible position now is to completely reject it­to discover other ways to work that can sustain one over a long period of time.Even if someone never achieves success in the market, there are still ways to

construct and develop a practice that is as dedicated and engaged as humanlypossible. It would require a new sensibility and a new mental space to exist in.External validation from shopkeepers would no longer be sought. This playingof the game bores me to tears. What would be the reason to get up each day?

Just to play the game?

Strauss: If artists are not going to do this, how will they make a living? I'll tellyou how: they're going to teach.

Martinez: That is the current model. But I tell my graduate students to not eventalk to me about teaching. I won't even discuss it with them, because I don't

think that someone who graduates in June should be allowed to start teaching in

September! In three months they have somehow gained the experience to movefrom being on one side of the classroom to the other? I have yet to meet an indi­vidual who can actually do that.

Strauss: I agree. I think it's a bad practice. In fact, I'm not sure that anyoneshould teach until they are over fifty. Or even over sixty. My most important

J7 lII't jOUJ1W

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

julianne Swartz, Con You H_Me12004.PVC pipe. mirror. wood. uIstInJ 8I'dlItec.tu,.. metal ......parddpantI, J9 x lOx15 ft.(11.9 x J x 4.6 m).1ite-Ipedftc InscaI­Iadon. the SunshIne Hotel. NewYortr, NY.commlaloned .., the New Museum. NewYortc(artwork 0 julianne Swartz)

The Sunshine Hotel .. the IaIt remalnln.~~hoaIIln Its a-ynefahborhoocLA. perIscope-CJpe mirrorsystem Mel the natural-*sof PVCpipe tlWnmlt • mlniaturtucllrnap MelampIifted ~ the MICCIftd.ftoor

lobby of the hoaII Mel the street below.ThIs Hvke conducts unusual~to­face"~~ hoaII ......dents Mel pecIesCrIans.

8. Joseph Beuys. "Interview with WilloughbySharp. 1969: in Energy Plan for the WesternMonlJoseph 8euys in America: Writings by andInterviews with theArtist. ed. Carin Kuoni(NewYork: Four Walls EightWindows. 1990).85.

teacher, the poet Robert Duncan. didn't come back to teach (in the PoeticsProgram at New College in San Francisco) until he was Sixty-one.

Martinez:You go farther with this thaneven I do! Let's say that an individualshould have a minimum of ten years in the field and actually have created asignificant body of work about which they can be articulate. They have to haveexperience, David.They have to have something to show for what they think andwhat they say they do. It cannot be hypothetical. But most of the people teachingin art schools are very young. They have just gotten out of graduate school, hav­ing completed their graduate thesis exhibit and perhaps one other show. Andthat's it.

Strauss: In that way, it reflects the market. The market usually only rewards thehares-those who are fast out of the gate. I find that I am increasingly interestedin the tortoises. who take a long time to build a practice and a body of work.The market doesn't generally reward longevity and certainly not slowness. In

that way, art education reflects the rest ofconsumer society, where obsolescenceis actually a value. Get them right out ofart school. use them up. and get in thenext generation, fast. It's a way to keep artists under control.

Martinez: But that's not a sustainable system.

Strauss: Well, as long as people are streaming out of art schools it is.There's asurplus of artists.

Martinez:The net result of this system is banality. I would rather see peoplewho are making work that is riddled with error and failure. At least they are risk­ing something in order to aspire to something beyond themselves. Without that,you have an art world that is like McDonald's and Starbucks: uniform product.I am discouraged by this part of art, but I am encouraged by students who arerisking everything in their lives to be in school, to be students, and who aspireto really learn.

Strauss: The artists who teach in these burgeoning art schools can be dividedinto two groups: those who see teaching as a necessary evil, a job that enablesthem to continue to make art, and those who see teaching as an integral part of

their work. Of course, these attitudes coexist and are in continual conflict formost artists who teach. But when I think of these two approaches to teaching,the extremity of the latter tendency is represented by Joseph Beuys, who saidthat "to be a teacher is my greatest work of art."s This is an extraordinary state­ment coming from one of the most important artists of the twentieth century.

Martinez: My immediate response to Beuys's quote is, well, of course. His sig­nificant contribution was not what he made, but what he was able to pass on toothers. Maybe it is a legacy, maybe it is a capacity to effect change in others. It islike a catalyst that just continues to multiply.

Strauss: More than anything else, Beuys wanted to be a catalyst for change, atransformative agent.

Martinez: Absolutely. And that is the hope of teaching. Maybe, ultimately, theexchange that occurs with one student is more important than any object that

JI FALL 2005

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

J' ..-t journal

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

can be made. Maybe the intangibility of the experience that takes place betweenstudents and teachers-the unquantifiable space that develops in the sharing and

questioning of ideas, expanding the parameters of our intellects and our capacityto maintain a position of modesty while aspiring to great challenges-is the

thing. I completely agree with Beuys. Perhaps everything that I have made is basi­cally meaningless, and the only thing with genuine significance is that time that

I spend in the classroom, the time that I spend with students. Oddly enough, thismay be the role that has been crafted out of this idea of what it means to be anartist. I believe this for myself, and I think that many other artists and teacherswould agree. It is an amazing statement that Beuys makes. It is a statement of

extraordinary generosity that, for me, is very inspiring. Yes, we have to take careofourselves and our family, but there is another responsibility beyond who weare individually. It is especially salient in the United States, where the maximum

degree of individualism has been forged at the expense ofcommunity, relation­ships, and responsibility to anything other than oneself

Strauss: And that's the danger in the kind of art school that only focuses onwhat you need to survive as an artist. That kind of specialization is part of this

larger Bight from and denial of the social. The things that matter about art andliterature are not specialized, but are common and social, and you have to pursuethem with other people. We are talking about art and literature that speaks to usabout things that concern all of us, not just specialized elites. I don't want artistsand writers to become trained Specialists producing high-end consumer goodsfor a select group ofcollectors.

Maybe the best way to counter the uniformity in recent art production (andthe retreat into art about art) is for artists and writers to get broader educations(that provide information of general cultural concern) and experience.

Martinez: I agree, and I would relate this to something you mentioned earlier.When students are coming out of schools and they are not encouraged to beparticipants in the marketplace, what other recourse do they have but to teach?Alternatively, what if they are discouraged from teaching right away and aretaught that being an artist requires the ability to integrate oneself into the world?This means that they have to figureout how to make a living outside of the art

market and teaching. It is possible to do this. Long before I even consideredteaching, it was possible to get a job, to make a living, and to continue to makeone's work.

Strauss: That's a good point. It's been made out to be impossible, today. ButI don't think it is. So you're saying, Artist, get a job!

Martlnez:There are many ways to make a living and still be an artist. The com­petitiveness of the market, the current role of curators, the star system, and the

overall Saatchification of the art world these days have to be taken into consider­ation, of course. But perhaps we have to come up with new, much more subver­sive means by which to integrate ourselves into these systems and structures.Yes, we do! But basically ifwe tell artists that they have two options: that they

can participate in the marketplace or become teachers, then I think we havefailed them. We have failed in our ability to engage our imagination to find waysto exist in the social space that we're describing.

40 FALL 1005

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

Eric GottMman, ProJ-ctJ-t ",: DorfurlBoston, 1005, photop'aphlc profecdon ontowall, dm-slons YWIabIe (artwork C EricGottMman)

41 art [oumal

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

Carrie Ho,er, ChtolfKl(ftto (Peoce I.J),1004, acrytk, aIItter on canvas, 16 x 14 In.(91.4 x 61 em) (artwork C Carrie Ho,er)

We exist within a monostructure. The arbitration of taste is highly central­ized. P.S. I has a cattle call for Graner NewYork: hot new artists wanted. So you sendin your slides and hope someone likes your work. There is such an abundanceand oversaturation of artists in the field today that your work is reduced to a cat­tle call.The field cannot sustain so many individuals, but we continue to addmore artists than there ever were, and they all have graduate degrees. And nowthere is discussion in our field that there should be PhD programs for artists!There is a correlation being made, that I think is incorrect, that the gathering ofdegrees and time spent in institutional circumstances are the markers that qualifyone as an artist. Can you imagine a PhD program in studio art?

Strauu: It's the logical extension of the scam-the pyramid scheme that runson desire from below and greed from above. It's the same thing that happenswith "Creative Writing" programs. Most people won't be able to do it. Most willbe able to make a little art for a little while and then teach. And it starts all overagain. The few people who are able to make a living making art will help to sup­port the extremely small number of artists on top who are making a fortune, Justlike in the rest of Bush America.

Martinez: But if you have individuals who have only made a small amountof art and who turn to teaching, it seems to me that you have a flawed model.They're modeling a pattern based on themselves. It is a self-replicating systemof failure. Artists teach and their students graduate, make a little art, and thenteach. To perpetuate this is ludicrous.

Strauu: But Daniel, you just described the logic of consumerism. That's how itworks. You sell a product that doesn't work or deteriorates quickly, so consumerswill throw it away and buy another one, and it goes around and around in a cir­cle. Making something that works well is bad business.

Martinez: It is just wrong. I am a consumer like everyone else, but there has tobe a point when consumption ends and one has to genuinely invest oneself inlife. It's not about what you purchase, but about human interaction, buildingsomething with other people, and creating a social space.

Strauss: What do you try to teach, Daniel? Give me a list of five things that youtry to teach.

Martinez: I am not sure that the order means anything, but it is interesting tosee where things come out. The very first thing on my list is discipline. Next iscriticality.And attached to that with a hyphen is curiosity.Third on my list isgenerosity, and attached to that is responsibility. Number four is agency. Fiveis autonomy. And there is a sixth: a system of respect.

Strauss:You are so succinct! Single-word directives. And disctpline is first.

Martinez: In order to make art, one must have discipline. And discipline isconnected to motivation, as well as to individual philosophy.

Strauss: I agree.The first thing on my list is to teach students about the labor ofart and about the place where labor and pleasure come together in one's work:hard work and the pleasure of building a practice. If they don't learn how to

41 FALL lOOS

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

4J ..-tjounW

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

IWIy KaczynskI. Nan'" 800Ic £tHIs (GINn),lOGS.Installation view.Triple Candle.Harlem (artwork ClIWIy KaczynskI)

The piece consists of. series of separatesculptures placed thFQUlhout the space.When YI.-cI throup an ep-level peep­hole. the endre arranpment coalescesInto an lmap of Marcel Duchamp" teanuDon,., minus the nude.

9. WilliamS. Burroughs,"The Name IsBurroughs," in The Adding Machine: SelectedEssays (New York Seaver Books, I98S), 8.

work and don't get pleasure out of it, they won't survive as artists and writers.The next is to encourage them to fail, over and over again.You will never makeanything of real value unless you are willing to make a lot of bad work and tofail many, many times. Youdon't have to show these failures to anyone. In fact,like Burroughs said about his failed writings, you might want to "tear it intovery small pieces and put it into somebody else's garbage can."? But if you aren'twilling to fail, you can never get better. Actually, our lists are very similar. Next,teach them how to scrutinize and criticize their own work-to be able to getoutside of it and see it as if it was made by someone else. Perhaps this next oneis more relevant for writers: to direct them to sources that they can trust and drawon for the rest of their lives.And the final one is to continually raise the stakes­to ask bigger and better questions.

Danieljoseph Martinez is a tactical media practitioner and an internationallyexhibitingartist who livesand works on the west bank of the LosAngeles River. The works range from digital to analog,ephemeralto solid. He is Professor of Theory, Practice, and Mediationof Contemporary Art at the University ofCalifornia,Irvine,in the Studio Art Department. where he teaches in the Graduate Studies and NewGenres Department. He is represented by The Project. New York/Los Angeles.

David Levi Strauss is a writer and critic based in New York.His collection of essays on photographyand politics,Between the Eyes, with an introduction by john Berger, was published by Aperture in 2003,and Between Dog & WoJ(: Essays onArtandPolitics was published by Autonomedia in 1999.He was aGuggenheimfellow in 2003-41. Strauss currendy teaches in the Bard College MFA program and in thenew MFA program in art criticismand writingstarted by Tom McEvilley at the School of Visual Arts inNew YorkCity.

SaulAlvarezgraduated with a BAin studio art from the Universityof California, Irvine. He is currendy acandidate for an MFA from the CaliforniaInstitute of the Arts with an expected completion date of May2007.

PaulChan graduated from Bard College in 2002 with an MFA in filmand video.

EricGottesman has been working on a book project in Ethiopiasince 1999with support from organiza­tions such as UNICEF, the Open Society InStitute, and the Center for Documentary Studies at Duke. Heis currendy in the second year of an MFA program in photography at Bard College.

Kelly Kaczynski graduated from Bard College in 2002 with an MFA in sculpture.

Steven Lamgraduated from the MFA program in studio art at the Universityof California, Irvine,inJune2004 and currendy resides in New YorkCity.

ErinMing Lee graduated from the MFA program in studio art at the Universityof California, Irvine,in june2004. She currendy livesand works in New York.

Carrie Moyer is a New York-based painter and one half of the public-artproject Dyke Action Machine!(DAM!). Her paintingsand public-art projects have beenwidelyexhibited and reviewed nationallyandinternationally. She received her MFA from Bard College in 200 I.

Aaron Sandnes graduated from the Universityof California,Irvine,in june 2003 with a bachelor's degree instudio art. He is currendy attending CaliforniaInstitute of the Arts as a candidate for the MFA degree withan expected completion date of May2007.

julianneSwartz graduated from Bard College in 2002 with an MFA in sculpture.

KaraTanakagraduated from the Universityof California,Irvine,with a bachelor's degree in studio art injune 2005. Traversingthe globe on a treasure quest in search of gold,gems, her doppelganger, and therelease from Self, she iscurrendy attending GoldsmithsCollege,University of London, as an MFA candidate.

44 FALL 200~

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14

45 art jounu.l

Dow

nloa

ded

by [

Uni

vers

ity o

f K

ent]

at 1

0:35

26

Nov

embe

r 20

14