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The Axe Files - Ep. 39: Sen. Amy Klobuchar Released April 7, 2016 [00:00:07] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now, from the University of Chicago, Institute of Politics and CNN, "The Axe Files", with your host, David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILE" HOST: We hear a lot about the Senate as a millionaires club, and then there are people like Amy Klobuchar, the Senator from Minnesota. In fact she's written a book called "The Senator Next Door" talking about her upbringing in suburban Minnesota, the daughter of a sportswriter, his struggles with alcoholism and a whole lot of formative experiences that have made her such an interesting figure in our national politics. And I sat down with her the other day to talk about these things about the fight over the Supreme Court, about her recent trip for the president to Cuba. (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE) AXELROD: Amy Klobuchar, welcome. AMY KLOBUCHAR, SENIOR UNITED STATES SENATOR, MINNESOTA: Thank you, David. AXELROD: Not just a United States senator but an author, "The Senator Next Door". Tell me what next door was like and you wrote about it growing up in Minnesota. KLOBUCHAR: Well, that was actually one of the reasons I wrote the book because I want to make clear that people from regular backgrounds can end up in the Senate going from being a carhop at the A&W repair stand where they made low ... AXELROD: I love A&W. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. Well, yeah. But you didn't have to wear a t-shirt that said "Take home a jug of fun" like they made me. But to go from that, to being a U.S. Senator, so, yeah, I grew up in our pretty middle-class suburban neighborhood and I don't think I ever expected to be in politics much less of the Senate. My first political involvement was raising money for the high school prom "Lifesaver Lollipops." We got them for cheap and then marked them off, good entrepreneurial venture. And so, I just tell that story including my own high school prom, because I think so many people think you have to be someone famous or someone with a lot of money to run for office and certainly the cynicism has grown over the past year. AXELROD: Well, that maybe because a lot of people who you serve with in the Senate have made a lot of money and spend it to get to the Senate. KLOBUCHAR: That may be correct. There may be a reason people think that. AXELROD: Yes. Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: But I wanted to make clear that there is another path. And then, that's the path I took.

1 Ep. 39 – Sen. Amy Klobuchar

AXELROD: So, when I was a young reporter in 1977, I was on night sides of the Tribune. And I called -- I was deathly ill and I love the job but I called in sick the first time I ever called the sick. That's too bad because we want to send you up to Minnesota because Hubert Humphrey is dying. And I said, "I'll go". And I went and I stayed up for 36 hours, when I get up there he passed away just about when I arrived. And I spent a lot of time talking to people in Minnesota. And every person I spoke to said "Yeah, I knew Hubert. Hubert, -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELORD: -- he knew my family. And I was wondering, you know, DFL tradition and Hubert Humphrey were big in Minnesota when you were a kid. What do you remember about all of that and how much did that permeate your view of politics? KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all, I remember that day because my dad took me to the capital after he died. And there were thousands of Minnesotans -- AXELROD: I stood outside there. KLOBUCHAR: Right. AXELROD: I was there. They were there all through the night. I was like 13 below. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. It was. AXELROD: And everybody lined up to pay their respect. KLOBUCHAR: Right. AXELROD: It was a most extraordinary thing I had ever seen. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I know it was. And that was part of this Minnesota grassroots tradition. There's an old funny story about Humphrey. He had a cohort Miles Lord. He went on to be a federal judge. And Miles Lord once there -- the car stopped and there was a bus that had also stopped. Miles Lord gets on the public bus and says to the people "There's a guy that's going to get on the bus that's going to say he's Hubert Humphrey. He's not." He has the thought. So Hubert Humphrey gets on the bus to greet everyone hello and they are like, "I'm not talking to you." And I only tell that story because Humphrey was just flabbergasted. He couldn't believe that he got no response. And that is because he was such a person of the politics of joy, the happy warrior. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: And so that was part. For me, I think politics for me was more through my dad as a reporter like yourself. AXELROD: Yeah, he was a sports reporter. But, you know, Jimmy Breslin, the great columnists once


said that political reporting is the first cousin of sports reporting. And I think he's right about that. KLOBUCHAR: That's true but he actually -- so he started doing just general reporting. He called the 1960 election, the year I was born. He actually was working for the Associated Press, Minnesota, Illinois -- AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: --and California were the three states out. AXELROD: Yeah Kennedy Nixon, super clubs. KLOBUCHAR: Kennedy Nixon, he's from the Iron Range. His dad was an iron ore miner. That was the part that hadn't come in. And he called it and wrote the story. And actually when Minnesota -- when they announced Minnesota the A.P. beat everyone else out. [00:05:04] And James Reston of the New York Times wrote a piece that said when Minnesota was called for Kennedy, 13 minutes later Richard Nixon conceded. And my dad said that when he wrote that story, they all celebrated in the newsroom at the A.P. He went out to a Swedish Café and had some lunch, came back and was assigned his next story -- AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: -- three pigs were stuck in the mud pit in Faribault. So he started with that, went into sports but then actually ended up writing a column about anything he wanted including politics -- AXELROD: Three pigs -- KLOBUCHAR: -- so that was a lot money. AXELROD: Three pigs being stuck in a mud, that sounds like political reporting a little bit -- KLOBUCHAR: Exactly. AXELROD: But -- KLOBUCHAR: So that was my life -- AXELROD: Your governor at that time was Orville Freeman, right? KLOBUCHAR: Yes. AXELROD: And he became the Secretary of Agriculture. KLOBUCHAR: Under Kennedy.


AXELROD: So obviously, Kennedy appreciated that Minnesota came his way. KLOBUCHAR: I think so. And -- but for me growing up in those, you know, '70s in the suburbs, the truth was, you know, we'd hear highlights on our transistor radio as we would lay out in foil boxes on top of our roast to get tanned. But it wasn't a major part of my everyday life. As much as it was that my dad would talk about his work. Until I got into college and I started volunteering on campaigns and then work for Walter Mondale as his intern when my sophomore year of college, was just something I'll never forget? AXELROD: And you saw that out because you -- KLOBUCHAR: I started getting interested. AXELROD: -- you started getting interested. KLOBUCHAR: And here was a Minnesotan, he was a vice president of the United States. And I went and they're all excited and my first assignment for three weeks was to do the furniture inventory. I had to crawl under every table desk and lamp and write down the serial number. AXELROD: Yeah. I wonder if that stuff is still there. KLOBUCHAR: Well, that was what I learned. The vice president was very honest, nothing was missing. AXELROD: Yeah. So now as a senator, when you go back there, do you find yourself peeking under chairs to see if it's the same one? KLOBUCHAR: Well, I do. I always tell young people like you have this expectation you're going to change the world in your first job. But what matters is that you do it well and you do it with enthusiasm. And as I point out that was my first job in Washington, this was my second. So it worked out pretty well. AXELROD: You know, before -- I want to talk to you more about your career, but I want to ask you something about your dad. He was a very, very prominent sportswriter in Minnesota. But he also -- you wrote was an alcoholic, how did that impact on your life? KLOBUCHAR: Well, he's recovered now at age 88, happily married for the third time and sober. But that went on a lot of my time growing up. In fact, he had said he'd stop drinking -- AXELROD: Not uncommon by the way among reporters -- KLOBUCHAR: No. AXELROD: -- as a former reporter you spend a lot of time in saloons. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. So, for me it was tough on my sister and myself, my mom. My parents end up getting divorced when I was 16. And, you know, he wouldn't come home Christmas morning we're waiting. It was a hard thing. And it made me want to change things in his life which eventually he got two DWIs in the '70s which were just no one cared back then, big deal.


But by the third DWI, which was later right before I got married actually, then he actually had a problem. He was going to lose his license. He had time hanging over his head. And he ended up going to treatment and that changed everything. So, I literally saw him climb the highest mountains which he's done. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: And then, go down into the deepest valleys from alcoholism. But also seeing him recover is for me an inspiration. AXELROD: I don't know what it is about the newspaper business, but I have some of the best reporters that I worked with were alcoholics and they could come -- they go out to lunch and they come back drunk. And they write these beautiful pieces on deadline, and I'm thinking how do they do that? KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: But it served endemic. It was endemic at that time to the trade. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. And I think back then, they would drink with cops, they drink with everyone, you know, the sports coach, he and Norm Van Brocklin actually-- AXELROD: Quarterback for the -- yeah -- KLOBUCHAR: --that's the former -- AXELROD: -- for the Vikings -- KLOBUCHAR: The former Vikings coach got into a fist fight once in a hotel room. And the only thing that got broken was a TV. And when Mike Dikta here Bears coach -- AXELROD: Yes. KLOBUCHAR: -- once testifying in front of the Commerce Committee with all the cameras on him. I asked him, told him the story publicly and I said, he said, "Well, Senator, I too have gotten into a fist fight with Norm Van Brocklin. Yeah. AXELROD: I can't imagine what Mike was adding to the proceedings -- KLOBUCHAR: It was an early discussion about disabilities and playing rules -- AXELROD: Oh really? KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. It was pretty interesting. Yeah. AXELROD: Yeah. Yeah. Mike took a pounding when he was a player. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. And just, you know, the issues have now come out with concussions and things that we were working on, yup.


AXELROD: Yeah. I want to ask you about that as -- but let's pick up the narrative of your career. What made you decide to become a lawyer? KLOBUCHAR: Well, I -- early on -- AXELROD: Do you want to be a sports writer? KLOBUCHAR: -- there were no lawyers on my family. I liked writing. I love writing. I still love writing that's why I wrote the book. [0010:01] AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: But I wanted to do something to change the world, do I wanted to represent people my dad grown up seeing and my mom as a second-grade teacher, loving her job serving the public. And I'd seen my dad fighting for the public in a different way in his columns in the newspaper. And I figured law was a way that I could do that. And I ended up after college going to the University of Chicago Law School. AXELROD: A fine institution. KLOBUCHAR: And it was a bit of a shock. I had never even read a case before. I've been in the courtroom once, but I came to love the professors there. I found my own path of working on different issues and more public policy oriented things. And it was a great place to go. AXELROD: Not, not a bastion of liberalism. KLOBUCHAR: No. That's part of you why I chose it. I actually had been ill (ph) and it that was a little bit more liberal. And I wanted to go somewhere where not everyday felt like a meeting of the College Democrats. And I certainly found that place at University of Chicago where Frank Easterbrook was a professor and Scalia had just left there actually. And Judge Posner -- AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: -- was teaching there. AXELROD: Some of the leading conservative lights on the bench. KLOBUCHAR: Nelson Lund who would show up every day, one of our students with his NRA belt buckle. So it really led to some good discussions. And the professors always called our class the happy class which I thought, they're great, they're social, they get along and I -- and in fact it meant that they thought we wouldn't produce many Supreme Court clerks. But they did produce in that class one clerk, me, and Jim Comey, the Director of the FBI. AXELROD: Who did you clerk for? KLOBUCHAR: I ended up -- I didn't. I wanted to go, I knew I wanted to go home. That was a decision I made my second year. I was on the law review, but I decided that I wanted to get involved in politics and go -- back to Minnesota. So, I went to Dorsey and Whitney and -- but became a partner there and then


moved over to another law firm. AXELROD: Yeah. That must have raised eyebrows at the University of Chicago Law School that you would pass on a Supreme Court. KLOBUCHAR: Not a Supreme Court. That was a no for the Supreme. AXELROD: Oh, I see. KLOBUCHAR: No, no, no. I was more decided not to go the route of going into courtships (ph). AXELROD: I see. So, so you went back. What kind of law did you practice? KLOBUCHAR: I was in general litigation and then I started doing regulatory policy work. And then Mondale came to the firm. I like to say he followed me. And that was great and I got to work with him half time, and write speeches, and go with him on client trips, other things. And it was -- that was a really good -- he's always been a great mentor to me. AXELROD: Yeah. I was thought of he -- I covered the '80 race and the '84 race. And I was thought of him as a really normal guy. In fact, I thought that might've been a barrier for him in some ways that he was maybe -- I said to Obama when he was thinking of running for president. I think you maybe too normal to run for president. And Mondale always struck me as a guy. I was telling about him the other day because I had mentioned that I heard that he took a shot of scotch before every debate. And I thought well I can relate to a guy like that. KLOBUCHAR: He actually. I just had dinner with him this weekend. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: He was like 88 years old. He's in a really good spirits. And he has been so starting when I was like, you know, an intern in his office and then at the law firm, but then just through politics. The Kerry convention if I remember, that was my first national convention and I'm ready to go out there the day before I get my three minute speech for John Kerry. He was a prosecutor at the time. And he says to me, "Well, have you memorize the speech?" And I go, "Well, no, there's, you know, there's teleprompters." And he said, "Don't trust the teleprompter". That's how Carter said "Hubert Horatio Hornblower" at the Carter convention. AXELROD: Yes. KLOBUCHAR: And I said, "OK, all right, it seemed outdated." I'm up there on the stage Patrick Leahy's speaking, the teleprompter goes dark. AXELROD: No kidding? KLOBUCHAR: And I'm standing there. I look in the front row. They're waiting for me to speak as Walter Mondale. And I have never seen a more I told you so I'm like end my life. I get up to the stage. I give my speech. I don't use the teleprompter at all. It came up in the middle and because I'd memorize it like he


said and it went really well. And the organizers had told me that I couldn't even use a little joke about George Bush, where I said something about -- AXELROD: Yes. I remember that convention, you know. I was there with Obama. He spoke there too. KLOBUCHAR: Really? But in any case maybe little more notable than my three minutes, but -- AXELROD: But he also memorized his speech. KLOBUCHAR: That's right. But anyway, I had a joke of a Barbara Jordan quote about how what America wants is something that -- what America wants is something as good as its country and it's a bit of promises good as its country. And I said, "I do like to end with something famous from someone from Texas and I paused, "Not George Bush." And they prohibited me from using that joke. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: But after the teleprompter went dead, I'm like -- AXELROD: So did you use it, did you adlib? KLOBUCHAR: I guess I did. I completely adlib because I decided if they were having technological problems I think I'll buy it. AXELROD: You ran for prosecutor when you were 38 years old, what prompted you to run for that office? [00:15:04] KLOBUCHAR: Well, I really wanted to do something that I think a lot of people are saying, "Well, why don't you go and, you know, run for a secretary of state of Minnesota? AXELROD: You knew you want to run for something? KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. And I just stated, "Well, that's better statewide". Being prosecutor, you're going to something bad, a case will happen. And I said, "No, I want to do this work. I'd worked doing prosecutions for the city of Minneapolis for a few months in a program through my law firm. I loved it. I love the feeling of the courthouse. Some of the drama, some of the decisions you have to make that have an effect on people's lives. It's a great office, 400 people. And we had a history of Minnesota of not always veteran prosecutors running for the office they like, the idea of people coming from the outside Republicans or Democrats." And so, I had a really big election that year running against a Republican congressman sister. And I won by something like seven or eight votes per precinct. AXELROD: That's '98, the year Jesse Ventura got elected -- KLOBUCHAR: 1998. AXELROD: -- governor of the Minnesota. KLOBUCHAR: Jesse Ventura and I campaigned together in parades next to each other. We always kind


of put in the back as we had less money than our opponents. So, there you go. AXELROD: Yeah. Well, at least you could clear that way if you march a couple steps behind him you would -- KLOBUCHAR: That's right. AXELROD: The -- So tell me about being a prosecutor. One of things that you did I noticed and you wrote about was you for stiffer penalties for drunken driving. And read that and I read that with interest because of your dad. And -- KLOBUCHAR: Well, part of that is because I'd been in the car with him when he had a more minor accident when he was drinking. And so, I was able to see what that meant and how close call that was. And when I get into the office I never campaigned on felony DWI. But I could not believe the number of people we'd seen killed from drunk drivers. And Minnesota had such a weak law that literally we had people with 22, 23 DWIs that were driving around. One guy actually said when the cops arrested him that he moved from Colorado because they had felony DWI. And in our state it was just a misdemeanor. So, we got the law changed. AXELROD: And what would have happen to your dad if the law you pass at -- KLOBUCHAR: Well, the law -- the felony kicks in at four DWIs. So, I guess he would have been okay at his three, but it was clearly as an incentive for people and -- to not drink and drive and we've had much decrease in the number of drunk driving deaths which has been a good thing. The other thing that I am -- that I really got involved an it's actually ahead of our time in terms of some the issues we're seeing now is some criminal justice reform. Minnesota was one of the first states that recorded interrogations, videoing, whether they were in a squad car, whether they were in custody it was a Supreme Court ruling. But I went around the country and advocated for that and debated other DAs and explained how our cops actually agreed to like it. We did a DNA review. We did all kinds of things with eyewitness I.D. because that was the biggest way that people were getting wrongfully convicted, to show the pictures not just all at once but one a time. So I did a lot in that area as well. AXELROD: Your old offices in the news right now -- KLOBUCHAR: Yes. AXELROD: -- because of a police shooting over of a young African-American man Jamar Clark I believe is his name. KLOBUCHAR: Yes. AXELROD: And just these past few weeks the announcement came that they were not going to prosecute the police officers in that case. This has become a real storyline not just in Minneapolis but in -- throughout the country including my hometown of Chicago.


KLOBUCHAR: That is a horrible case in Chicago. AXELROD: It was. But tell me from a prosecutor standpoint how you think about these cases. Because you work closely with the police but you also serve the community. KLOBUCHAR: Exactly. Why figure our mission is always to convict the guilty and protect the innocent. And that includes victims and people in the community. So, in my mind there has just been this breakdown of trust for many reasons. I -- And we have to fix that. And not every case is going to get charged, just what happened in Minnesota the prosecutor look carefully at the evidence and made a decision. AXELROD: And people would come here and say that a very few of them get charged. KLOBUCHAR: That's correct. But the question to me is one when there was a case like Chicago, to me that case was clearly chargeable when you saw it. But -- AXELROD: Were you surprised that it took a year -- KLOBUCHAR: Yes. That was -- AXELROD: -- to bring those charges? KLOBUCHAR: That did not obviously happen in Minnesota. AXELROD: The argument was that she was waiting for the federal government to -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- to act. But the federal government never acts on the same -- KLOBUCHAR: Right. And in our case we made a plan here but I wasn't involved. But the prosecutor looked at the case first, the local prosecutor and now the U.S. attorney is looking at the case. And I think that it'll all be done within the six months. AXELROD: On a civil rights, you know, that I wish. KLOBUCHAR: On the civil rights thing and they've agreed to do that investigation. And it's I think much more transparency. In our case all the information was put out by the prosecutor whether you agree with the decision or not. [00:20:02] All that being said what you want to do is stop these cases from happening in the first place. You want to fairly review them and some will be charge and some won't. But there are too many of these shootings happening. So, here's my incident (ph). And number one and a big, big basis we have to look at criminal justice reform. We are looking at reducing drug sentences in the federal level in Congress and I'm supportive of that effort to support Republican Democratic side. That's a breakdown in trust when people feel that you're sending people way for certain offenses for way long and then not for others for as long. Secondly, things like body cameras I've lead with talking about videotape interrogations for reason. Because that gave people faith


that in fact the questions being asked were fair. Grand jury reform, if you're going to use a grand jury in this case our prosecutor didn't. He took responsibility for the decision. But to make as much public as he possibly can and doing everything you can to that transparency hiring. In our state now, we have dozens of Somali police officers. I would just have gone a long way in making reaching out to that community. And then just outreach police training, you know, a lot of this were learning now. There's different takedown techniques as different techniques they can use to deescalate a situation. We had a case when I was prosecutor where a mentally ill woman. She was actually white with a knife and was in her apartment screaming cops come in, charge at them with the knife, they killed her. That created all kinds of reforms and how our police and our state looks at cases of mental illness. AXELROD: What happened to the police officers in that case? KLOBUCHAR: That case they weren't prosecuted because that's, you know, from the standards you could show that she actually had charge at them with a weapon. AXELROD: We go to take a short break for a message from stamps.com. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) AXELROD: Back with Amy Klobuchar. In 2006, you run for the Senate, you got elected to the Senate. What were your expectations going to the Senate about what the Senate would be like? You work for Walter Mondale who had served in the Senate at a different time in our history, what were your expectation? KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm -- first of all I was very focused on doing what was best for my state and getting things done for the state. I think that I thought them naively that, oh, they'll just be like when I was a prosecutor. I come up with an idea, get a bunch of people to support it and get it done. It's not quite that easy as you know and as the president has found out in the Senate. And I was stunned by of sort of the -- I felt a little like "Alice in Wonderland" some days. I remember my first lunch, you know, LBJ room big photo of portrait of LBJ looming over us, and I got a cup of soup and I'm ready to eat it. And Patty Murray runs around and she says, "Amy, you just took the entire bowl of Thousand Island dressing. You're about to eat." I said, "That's what we do in Minnesota. We eat a Thousand Island dressing". But I had a lot of experiences like that. It was very much more mail dominated than I was used to even in the prosecutor's office because half of my employees were women, even though all the police chiefs at the time were men except one. I had 45 police chiefs that worked with me. So, that was a stunning thing to just settle come from environments that felt more equal, and then suddenly be in this environment that was more than 80 percent male senators. That has changed over time. The women have gained more power and I think we're better for it. We're still at only 20 percent though when you look at the numbers of women senators. And then just the partisanship was something that I did accept that. You know, people sitting on either sides of the room. I came from an office while I was an endorsed Democrat. The party I.D. wasn't even


on the ballot. I had Republican commissioners that were basically supporting me in my run for the Senate, are staying neutral. And so this was a new experience for me. And I found a way to deal with that, I worked across the aisle, I am one of the highest rates of doing bills with Republicans. And then I just focused on what I wanted to get done. And mostly economic issues with the downturn and with working with our businesses, and then consumer issues. AXELROD: But you supported Barack Obama in 2000. Presumably your expectation or your hope was as the spirit of that campaign suggested that there would be a coming together after he got elected, what happened? KLOBUCHAR: Well, that was profoundly sad I thought of what happened. Now, I think it happen for reasons outside of his control. I think it happened because we were in the middle of the downturn and people saw some political possible gain coming out of that downturn. [00:25:05] And so they decided we're just can say no to a bunch of things. I think that he couldn't have anticipated the base and the money coming in on the other side and what was going to happen there. Nevertheless, he has continued to have that as his mindset which I think is important and people know that. It's in the people that -- AXELROD: Not with the Republicans say, but -- KLOBUCHAR: Well, it's in the people that he's hired. I thought David Brooks recent column away went through. Maybe we're going to actually miss him in terms of the work that he's done. And when you think about what happened, he inherited the worst economic depression since the depression. AXELROD: Yeah. I was there -- KLOBUCHAR: And he had to get through that and do an imperfect about this big stimulus bill. He had to get the Dodd-Frank Bill pass so that this wouldn't happen again. AXELROD: Financial reform. KLOBUCHAR: And then there was -- right. And there were some things that he did. And especially lately I heard someone say good things happen in the fourth quarter which is his last years. AXELROD: Yes. KLOBUCHAR: I think there's a lot going and nobody is not running again. And so they just said that, "Well, OK. We'll do a transportation bill. We'll work with Democrats and do this and work with the president." We will move forward on getting the doctors fixed done. We will move forward and try to partner with him on a bunch of economic issues because that's been happening. AXELROD: Let me ask you a question. Your future leader, Chuck Schumer, made a speech in 2014 and said he thought that the Affordable Care Act was a mistake. That it would -- it'd jeopardize the Democratic Party. You supported the Affordable Care Act. Do you consider it mistake? KLOBUCHAR: No. And I think what Chuck was getting at and I've talked to him about that speech. He was getting at the timing of it and that it came at a time, when we had -- if many people wanted to more focus on some of the economic issues. But then again, when you step back and look at it and you think,


well maybe if we done immigration reform earlier in the Bush years we would've probably got it done for sure. So I think the president made that judgment call, and I do think there's things I'd like to see change. I'm obviously like to get -- we got the medical device text and -- AXELROD: Which is a big issue in your state. KLOBUCHAR: I think that that's an issue. I think there's some things that we can do to make it actually my major focus which I appreciated that the president had was on making our healthcare more cost-effective and efficient. Some things were put in there for that. I think we need to do more to bring costs down. And that's the hardest thing to do and it would've been easier to do with Republican support. AXELROD: The -- I was in the White House at that time. I was very nervous about that health reform. Even though I have a child with a chronic illness, so I had to really into this (ph) and I almost went bankrupt trying to pay our medical bills. But the president said, "Look, if we don't do it in the first two years it will never get it done". Because his anticipation was that Democrats would have a tough year in 2010 and had to. Democrats had won huge majorities over two elections and now you're in the, you're in, essentially, you know, a near depression situation. So, you know, I think Republicans made that same calculation. So his thought was, again, would you think the Affordable Care Act could've passed after 2010? KLOBUCHAR: Well -- AXELROD: I mean in 2011 I should say. KLOBUCHAR: -- with the changes that we saw with the House and everything, when the Democrats lost power in the house I think that would've been really hard to get done. AXELROD: Because when I heard Schumer said that I thought, "Well, if you hadn't done it then it wouldn't have gotten done. We would not have an Affordable Care Act". KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I think what he was trying to get at -- AXELROD: I'm not trying to put you in a -- KLOBUCHAR: No it's fine. I think what he's trying to get at was that it would've been -- if there was some way to have done with Republicans maybe it would've been narrower or maybe it would've been at a different time. That's what he was trying to say. But I think in reality it was really hard to move. And in fact, what the president did, was there a lot of proposals in that bill that the Republicans had been proposing for a long time like helping small businesses to afford healthcare. So, it was a mix of things. Again, if I had done it myself I would've had a more emphasis on, on ways to push the healthcare system to make it as possibly efficient. AXELROD: Well, I was around when he was meeting with some Republicans.


KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: And they all make clear that there were sort of a prohibition on cooperating -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- that that was the policy of the Republican Congress. KLOBUCHAR: I just keep going back to immigration reform which I hope whoever our new president is, I hope it's Hillary. But that will be a major focus because twice that's got shoved to near the end and it hasn't worked. Bush valiantly tried to get that done. AXELROD: Yes. KLOBUCHAR: Those were my first two years here. And he really was trying but he had lost the steam to be able to do it. And this time it happened some again. So, that's an example when you look at the Obamacare and healthcare. The reason the president did that early was I think he figured out that it was going to be really hard to do it later. AXELROD: The -- do you have a favorite Republican to, I mean, you know, people think of Democrats in one side, and Republicans on another. Is there someone on the other side of the aisle who you really admire and like working with? [00:30:11] KLOBUCHAR: Well, I actually have a huge section in my book called "Republicans I have loved to work with". So just like I wouldn't pick one Democrat, I won't pick one Republican but people I have worked with Susan Collins when she stood and said, "We need to end the shutdown". Anyone who wants to work with me, I was a first Democrat that called her and we basically 14 of us half women came up with the deal and brought it to both leaders and said, "We have the press gallery preserved in three hours if there's not some kind of agreement". It was a fun day. And we got an agreement. I've worked a lot with everyone from John McCain on prescription drugs from Canada, and to Chuck Grassley, Roy Blunt and I have done a lot of work together. I've also worked with John Hoven, my neighbor, on a bunch of things with STEM, and science and technology. I can go through the list because for me John Cornyn and I did the sex trafficking bill that passed last year. AXELROD: So on individual things you can find partners and people will operate in good faith is what you're saying. KLOBUCHAR: That's what I found. And you may not agree with them on everything, but you need to figure out what you're standing your ground on and I believe that's what the Democrats have done in the Senate this year. I'm pretty proud of some of the work we've done as being in the minority. I mean, we stood our ground on women's issues, we've stood our ground on the environment, we stood our ground on the work that needs to be done with civil rights and yet there were so many examples from the transportation bill to cyber security. And we stood our ground on refugees. I'll say that too, on immigration reform. But there's other issues where we have worked to get things done and we've been successful. AXELROD: What about the issue of the Supreme Court? You're on a Judiciary Committee.


KLOBUCHAR: Yeah, OK. AXELROD: We've got a vacancy, president has appointed Merrick Garland who I think is probably about as moderate -- an appointee as a Democrat whatever appoint. KLOBUCHAR: Well, not to mention he grew up in Illinois. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: OK. AXELROD: Well, that is a bonus. That certainly adds to his very distinguished resume. But what do you foresee here? Do you think there's an opportunity to move the public at all because Mitch McConnel said he's not going to move on. KLOBUCHAR: I continue to hope that there is and that hope comes from where the people are. The public overwhelmingly wants to see us move forward with hearings. I don't know what these guys are afraid of as Angus King recently said are they afraid with the -- AXELROD: Aren't they afraid that if -- KLOBUCHAR: -- that they'll like him to much? AXELROD: Aren't they afraid. Yeah. Aren't they afraid -- I mean Merrick Garland is an impressive guy. KLOBUCHAR: He is. And he's been very moderate and he is someone who looks for consensus and tried to find rulings where you bring more people together. He had the support of everyone from Orrin Hatch to John McCain to Senator Coats and the last time he was up after the D.C. circuit. Senator Hatch, actually took to the floor and said., "I challenge anyone who say they don't support him". AXELROD: Right. But none of them for him now? KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. But the point is, is that they know in their hearts that he's a moderate and that he's a consensus builder. And when you look at the fact that we -- a history 1916, we've always had a hearing unless someone was immediately confirmed. No seat left open this long since the Civil War. I just think we have very good arguments. AXELROD: What do your colleagues say? You talked to them privately. What did they tell you about this one? KLOBUCHAR: Well, what I remember from these private discussions during Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor's confirmation with them all say, "Well, if it was Merrick Garland -- AXELROD: Now, I understand what they said then, but what did they tell you now? You must -- I know you're not sure. You must remind what were those conversations --. KLOBUCHAR: So much pressure and you had two senators this week who had they wanted hearings and then change their minds. And you are getting stayed or getting so much pressure from the right. And


in the end, while it has been an ugly political season, to me the American people see through this and they don't want a court that can make a decision for two years. And this gridlock and all of the finger-pointing and all the hate words, no one thinks that it should spill over onto the court, the highest court in Orlando. AXELROD: You were practicing politician. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: And I'm sure you talk to them politician to politician. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I talk to them -- AXELROD: Do you have some sympathy for buying therein? KLOBUCHAR: I actually don't, I actually said at the judiciary hearing now I'm out there for the world to see. I said I've struggled with this. If it was a Republican president and we had a Democratic Senate, what would I do? And as a lawyer as someone who respects the Constitution, I would say we'd have to go forward with hearings. Now, would depend on the nominee if I would support them or not. And I know that they have suffered a tragic loss. Scalia died unexpectedly. But then in a democracy just like you have a presidential candidates or wins or loses, you move on. You allow the process to work as it's supposed to. And that's what makes me so sad about what they're doing. [00:35:02] AXELROD: You got six or colleagues who are running in states that Obama carried including Chuck Grassley this year who was running against the appropriately named Patty Judge, do you think any of them or all of them will suffer if they don't support hearings for Garland? KLOBUCHAR: I think they easily could. Because just what I've been hearing at home, people are still talking about the -- those people at a grocery store they'll say did you see that? It's a 4-4 decision. It's because we don't have a judge. This just strikes at the core of anyone that thinks this isn't fair. This isn't how politics are supposed to work. And I don't think that they can explain it in any kind of a constitutional and a historical context. So, I do think it's going to be issue. They are calculating. The Republican Party and the, the forces that supported are calculating the people don't vote based on Supreme Court, right. They're calculating them. They're not going to notice, they're not going to care. Well, they do care about democracy and they do care about America. And to me this is just the polar opposite of what we should be doing if you wanted to have a court and a system that's fair. And I think it does become and issue in a bigger way. AXELROD: Have you told any of these colleagues that you feel this could cause them there seat? KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I think I have. I've mentioned it a few times and I -- AXELROD: And are they concerned about it? KLOBUCHAR: They just they just keep doing. They bring up, you know, something I don't know what they bring up but they make these arguments. And then I'm --


AXELROD: Don't you think its fear of the right? KLOBUCHAR: That's what I think. They don't admit that's what it is. But I think that's what it is. AXELROD: If you were Hillary Clinton and you won the election, would you re-nominate Merrick Garland or would you appoint your own -- KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm not going to tell her what to do. I personally think that there's many good choice out there I think that Judge Garland's a good choice. And I think the fact that he's taken -- AXELROD: But when there be a lot of pressure, when there be a lot of pressure from the progressive community where she elected to choose someone who is more liberal than Merrick Garland? KLOBUCHAR: I'm sure there's pressure but in the end she's going to make her own decision based on who think -- she think is going to be a good judge. And the fact to me that he has undertaken - when I saw him out in the Rose Garden with the president choking up, you know, as the president introduced him I thought this man and not only and, of course, he wants his job, right? But he's taking on the burden of the whole judiciary. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: This simple fact that we're supposed to have an independent judiciary and that were supposed to not have Congress denying that either the funding or the ability to put a judge on. And I think for that reason, in addition to that he is a great judge and so well respected that he would deserve to be the next choice. AXELROD: I just I just think that it is, it seems almost a certainty to me that there's going to be a ton of pressure to say he's 63, by next year he'll be 64. Appoint someone younger, appoint someone more progressive. Particular if she brings in a Democratic Senate with her. KLOBUCHAR: Well, you know, she may have more than one choice to make for the court eventually. And so, you know, shall have the opportunity to do more than one judge. AXELROD: So you personally, you personally would like to see Garland even if she gets elected you'd like to see Garland. KLOBUCHAR: Well, I think he's a very good choice. I'm not going to like guarantee of who -- AXELROD: You are a practicing politician I think -- KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm not going to -- the one other things I've did even with the president when, you know, people are talking who should be. I know, you go through different names but I really believe in the end that is a president's choice of who they pick. So that is why I'm pausing. AXELROD: Of course it's the president's -- KLOBUCHAR: Do I like him? Yes. I think he'd be great.


AXELROD: You were mention why did you remove your name from consideration? KLOBUCHAR: Well, I love my job now. And I think right now at this time of great come out -- AXELROD: Lifetime appointment, that's pretty sweet. KLOBUCHAR: There you go. That is nice. But I like what I'm doing now and I think the way I approach this job is a positive right now and we need more people that are willing to bring the temperature down a little on the rhetoric and get, get things done. AXELROD: Speaking of Hillary, you supported and I mentioned earlier I supported Obama in 2008. Why did you support him then and why are you supporting her now? KLOBUCHAR: Well, it was a tough decision for me back then. But I think at that time I said I'm between a Barack in a hard place, because I like both of them so much. But I, in the end had decided -- AXELROD: And you couldn't get over the hill, is that it? KLOBUCHAR: There you go. Oh men. It's going to be -- AXELROD: OK. We could do this all day. KLOBUCHAR: OK. Let's not go there. But I -- at the end I had gotten to know him. He came to my state several times when I was running and liked him and saw this kind of magic back then in his campaign. And his ability -- AXELROD: You're a woman and a Senate. It a must've been a hard decision. KLOBUCHAR: Yes, it was. And it wasn't easy with some people at home either. But I decided that he would be a really good president and I think that the history will show that's true. [00:40:03] And then now, to me the choice was really clear even before I knew who is going to run. I was in with her. For the same reasons it was a hard decision before. She is someone that has incredible experience. She is someone that brings with her an understanding of these issues. I saw how she worked in the Senate. And when you look at how strong she has been in these debates, when you look at how strong she has been in her public appearances and I personally like her. So -- AXELROD: We-- that was a good commercial fore her and now we have to take a break for someone else and we'll be back in a second. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) AXELROD: What -- I appreciate all of the virtues of Hillary that you've shared. Why I heard negative so high. Why is there such a resistance to her? You see these poles where there negatives in the '50s, what is it that people are resistant to? KLOBUCHAR: Well, I think first of all, we have not reached this point in the campaign. And you know when that point is where it's contrast between her and one other Republican candidate. That the people can just step back and really watch her and see her take on someone else and see what their views and


there are -- AXELROD: But there are things about here, this, you know -- KLOBUCHAR: I know. But they'll use get to that. So what do we have instead? OK. Well, we have her having been attacked for years. There's no doubt about it. We have multi-millions of dollars spent against her. They portray her in a certain way. She valiantly whenever she does appearances and debates does well by all accounts. And a lot of people that watched that have you seen in a lot of the primary states have decided, you know what, I'm going to vote for her. I like what she said when she was in Ohio. I like which he said, I've watched her at, you know, in town hall meeting in Illinois and I like what she said. So, those things have happened. And to me I we have to get to that point where she is best able to make her case. And one of the other things that we've seen happening is Trump and the rise of Trump, and the rise of negativity. And she's someone that has tended to be not of, you know, someone who is I would say a barnstormer speaker or those kinds of things. She's admitted it herself. She's someone that's been more thoughtful about policy, get things done and I think that is going to come out more when you see the one-on-one debates. AXELROD: You worked with her. You know her well. What is her persona, her personal persona as compared to her public persona? KLOBUCHAR: Well, as you, you probably know. She's incredibly warm. Not just one in one but in small groups and I -- well, you know, remember something about your daughter or ask about something that person that you're friends with. I mean, she really is someone that is actually kind of fun to talk to, who has a lot of energy contrary to Trump's claims. AXELROD: Funny. She's got a good sense of humor. KLOBUCHAR: Funny she has a great sense of humor. And that isn't always coming out. I will admit that in every appearance. AXELROD: Now why is that? Now why is that? KLOBUCHAR: You know where it's come out though. AXELROD: I don't want to make a invidious comparisons. But, you're someone who -- your basic personality is the same, you know, in large audiences, small audiences, you know. And what is it that make -- why is she so constrained when she is in public. KLOBUCHAR: Because I think that she has come up through this and I don't think it was like that early on. But she's come up to this thing where whatever she says if she makes one minor mistake, she gets attacked in a way that I couldn't even imagine. And I think for good or for bad that creates kind of an armor around you where that doesn't change that she's going to be a good president. It doesn't change that she can do well in debates and make her case and get things done. It just made her be more cautious. And now she talks about things -- AXELROD: What about caution -- like I was blue that authenticity is a big demand of a presidential candidate.


KLOBUCHAR: But you would agree talking to her one on one. She's pretty authentic. But she's a real person -- AXELROD: Yes I know. I mean -- but we have seen this before, you know, Al Gore was a little bit that way that -- KLOBUCHAR: Mondale is a little like that. He's very cautious on T.V. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: It doesn't mean he was not a great vice president and I didn't do whatever the words when he and Carter got out of office. You know. We told the truth, we obey the law and we kept the peace. And while he didn't feel like that at that time, he was amazing. AXELROD: This guardedness extends obviously the other things and she's been under attack for the -- for having her private email for not releasing or Bernie Sanders or other colleague been but attacking for not releasing her speeches. [00:45:03] Do you think she should be more forthcoming about these thing? KLOBUCHAR: I think that, again, she has made very clear she'll release the speeches that say she has a Republican opponent and they release speeches. I think she will. I think she's again trying to have in a very difficult political atmosphere. She's trying to have an even playing field. I don't have that problem. I've never given a paid speech. So, and all my speeches out there -- AXELROD: Nor is Bernie Sanders. So when he says that I don't need to release. KLOBUCHAR: Yes. It's a different thing. But I think the bigger thing here is the difference between her and someone like Trump. The fact that no matter how low he's gone, she has at least kept her head above water and she and Bernie have had civil debates -- AXELROD: What if he's not the candidate? KLOBUCHAR: Yes. They've had moments that have not been pretty, but it is much more normal debating -- AXELROD: What if Trump is again -- You tell that you're the senator next door. The one of the people who's next door to you on the Judiciary Committee is Ted Cruz. KLOBUCHAR: Across the rig. AXELROD: What are your impressions of him? KLOBUCHAR: I am very concerned about his views, about the things he said about immigrants, about the things that he have said that in my view have made this country great, some of his fiscal policies and other things. And so that's why, I think they'll be such a stark contrast depending on who this person is. And when you look at just the whole Republican field, of all the things that have happened and all the things they've said that are so divisive and she has in ad in New York right now. A state that's coming up


her for her that's very important. Talking about what has made the state of New York great and that is bringing people in. And they have done the opposite in fact as, you know, I think it was Carson that actually said a Muslim should never run for president. Well you know what, we've never had a Muslim president. We've never had Jewish president. We've never had a woman president. But you don't tell little kid in the United States of America that they can never run for president. That's not what's made this country great. And in the end when those debates come out between what I believe will be our candidate and I know were not done yet Hillary Clinton, and whether it is Ted Cruz, or Donald Trump or whoever else, those statements that those guys have made and the things they've said for all to see. AXELROD: Are you surprised knowing -- seeing what you've seen on the floor of the Senate, are you surprised to see all of these colleagues of yours on the Republicans side endorsing Cruz? KLOBUCHAR: Yes. AXELROD: What do you think at -- KLOBUCHAR: I think that part of it is that, you know, Lindsay who I adore I endorsed him and actually said in the same breath or in the same week that if there'd been a murder known, he would admit it or something who murdered him. I mean they clearly -- AXELROD: If you were murdered on a Senate floor -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I was deliberately being vague. AXELROD: Yes. KLOBUCHAR: So I wouldn't be quoted saying it. But I think they are admitting this, the issues there. And so I am surprised but at the same time I think they fear that the kind of candidate that Trump is and has become and will continue to be. And that's why they're doing it. I don't think it's an excuse. AXELROD: What about Bernie. You've worked with him. Are you surprised first of all to see him do as well as he's done? KLOBUCHAR: Not entirely. He has always had that amazing grassroots capacity. Always been incredibly hard worker, you know, came up through the grassroots. Came up in braces that were difficult but no one expected him to win. And I think that in the end if Hillary ends being the nominee which I believe will happen, that the thing about Bernie that I've seen time and time again is that he believes in his work, but he also -- and he's made clear about this -- believes in supporting people to make change. And I think he'll be a team player in the end but I can't put words in his mouth. And I think they've have much more in agreement than they do that separates them, and the things that separates them she's made clear. AXELROD: Do you think when you hear him talk about single-payer and some of the other things that he's proposing, do you think that he is -- she would say he's not being honest but what can be accomplished. I asked him when he was on this podcast. We were together on the healthcare but we


couldn't get a public option. KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. AXELROD: So how do you get single-payer? KLOBUCHAR: Right. Well I think that her point given what we've seen with this Congress trying as the president has done and she has many times reference with the president has done. He's had to make compromises. He's had to do things with executive order. AXELROD: But that's the anger of -- you hear from this folks. That's angered progressives in the Democratic Party. They -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. But it is a big Party, it's a big tent. And her -- and I don't think anyone can say that the president has been some conservative and he's approach to things. He's just simply realized there are some things that he has to compromise and some things he'll stand his ground on. And I think that's what you see in her is pragmatism to try to get things done and there are some things I'd -- I don't agree with Bernie and I'm a big supporter of the Export-Import Bank. [00:50:00] You know, not the top issue on every progressive mind but I have hundreds of small businesses that have been helped by that in Minnesota that allowed them to compete against other companies in other countries. We're literally going to cut ourselves off if we don't have that. I don't agree with his position on that. I -- the first immigration bill that Bush was trying to get through. Sheldon Whitehouse and I were the two new Democrats were part of that group with Ted Kennedy, and Ted tried valiantly to get that done. And working with Bush as we know and Senator Sanders later did support immigration reform but wasn't a supportive that for reasons that may be valid. But I like the fact that Hillary is willing to be pragmatic, but still as we all know from her history of standing up for women and others to stand her ground. AXLROD: But it's tough to you and I. I work at, you know, at the Institute of politics with young people. You see young people all the time. It's tough to say the young idealist. You know what, single-payer is great but it's not -- we're not going to get it. We should have much more significant taxes on the wealthy, but it's not practical. We're not going to get it. Pragmatism is a hard thing to sell, isn't it? KLOBUCHAR: It is. But I'm not I'm just explaining the difference between the two of them AXELROD: No I understand. But I'm just saying it's a political matter. KLOBUCHAR: When say that having 20-year-old daughter. AXELROD: Yeah. KLOBUCHAR: I know and what I have seen of my daughter's friends and others and that I meet with students throughout our state, they are bigger focus right now or things like civil liberties and gay marriage. And you look where the Republicans are in that and Hillary has been strong on this issue. She's been -- they are care about women's rights. They care about climate change a lot and she has a very strong record on that. They care about having of the economy that's going to work and they care about that. So I don't tell them --


AXELROD: The vote 80-20. Do you think they're going to come back -- KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I don't tell them o hey, hey, don't worry. I say we need some major changes which the president has said. We need major changes to student loans, we need major changes. I just believe she's a one that can get those major changes done. AXELROD: I'd be remiss if I didn't close by asking you about your trip to Cuba with the president. I know you've been working on this issue for a long time. Firs of all why, why as a senator for Minnesota taken an interest in Cuba? KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all I have got -- I was been -- I've been involved in this issue for years just including I think the first few years I was there. And some of this is having people from the Midwest. David Ignatius wrote a column about this called international of the, of the heartland. I think you need to move things and whether it is some of the changes we've seen support for the work the president has done in the greater world or Cuba. And for me, number one it's an economic issue for our country, 11 million people 90 miles off our shore. Our state already does $20 million in agricultural exports to Cuba. We could see that double triple with lifting the embargo and that's why I am leading the builder lift the embargo among other things. Two, it's really cold in Minnesota. People would like to go visit their every so often. They can just take up a boat from Miami. And three of course the Cuban people and the people are way ahead of the government from what I've seen. There is 500,000 entrepreneurs that want to do business with our country. And when I first visited there, I saw the date December 17th and all the artwork. And I literally thought well, it must be Castro's birthday. No. It was the day that our president announced that he wanted to open relations with Cuba. So this to me goes beyond a Cuba. It is about our country being willing to acknowledge to the rest of the world that 50 some years of a failed policy isn't right. That we don't want to isolate a country. That we are a strong enough country to reach out and show them what we do to get them to change our human rights policy. I think it'll not just help us in Cuba. I think it's going to help us and all of Central America and South America in terms of our relations. AXELROD: What are the chances of getting the embargo lifted? What's your assessment of that in the Conger? KLOBUCHAR: We have 24 cosponsors now and number of Republicans. I think it won't happen before the election especially if Ted Cruz is still hanging around in the presidential politics. Marco Rubio of course was a fierce opponent of lifting the embargo, but he's not running again. And we have some people on our own side that are against it. But the votes are truly there. I just need the Republican leadership to bring it up or we need different leadership. Because if you brought that up in the house or the Senate, I think it passes. AXELROD: You have 60 votes in the Senate you think? KLOBUCHAR: I think that if we did it before the election, probably not. AXELROD: By next year? KLOBUCHAR: If we do it into next year, I think so yes.


AXELROD: Amy Klobuchar thank you so much, The Senator Next Door. They should read it. It's great to be with you. [00:54:57] KLOBUCHAR: Thank you, David.


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