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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF OREGON

JAMES P. CHASSE, JR.; JAMES P. )

CHASSE; LINDA GERBER; and MARK )

CHASSE, individually and in his )

capacity as Personal Representative )of the ESTATE OF JAMES P: CHASSE,

JR., ) CopyPlaintiffs, )

V. )NO. CV-07-0189-HU

CHRISTOPHER HUMPHREYS; KYLE NICE; )

CITY OF PORTLAND; CITY OF PORTLAND )

JOHN DOE FIREFIGHTERS/PARAMEDICS; )

PORTLAND POLICE BUREAU and OTHER )

PORTLAND JOHN and JANE DOE )

OFFICIALS; BRET BURTON; MULTNOMAH )

COUNTY; MULTNOMAH COUNTY JOHN and )JANE DOE DEPUTY SHERIFFS and MEDICAL)

PERSONNEL; MULTNOMAH COUNTY JOHN and)

JANE DOE SHERIFF'S OFFICE and OTHER )

OFFICIALS; TRI-COUNTY METROPOLITAN )

TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT OF OREGON; )

and AMERICAN MEDICAL RESPONSE )

NORTHWEST, INC., 1

Defendants. )

DEPOSITION OF

RANDALL STUART

Taken in behalf of Defendants

July 14, 2008

1211 S.W. Fifth, Suite 1600

400 Columbia, Su~te140

Vancouver, WA 98660Schrmtt&Lehmann,Inc.C O U R T R E P O R T E R S

j3601 695-5554

Fox (3601 695-1737 www sireporting.com

121 SW Morrison St., Suite 850

Portland, OR 97204

15031 223-4040

~linc@~westoff~ce.net



Randall Stuart, 7/14/2008 Chasse v. Humphreys, et al.

For the Plaintiffs:

For the Defendants

Humphreys, Nice, and

City of Portland:

For the Defendants

Burton and Multnomah

County

For the Defendant

AMR :

Also Present:

APPEARANCES:

MR. THOMAS M. STEENSON

Attorney at Law

815 S.W. Second, Suite 500

Portland, OR 97204

MESSRS JAMES RICE and

DAVID A. LANDRUM

Attorneys at Law

1221 S.W. Fourth, Suite 430

Portland, OR 97204

MS. SUSAN DUNAWAY

Attorney at Law

501 S.E. Hawthorne, Suite 502

Portland, OR 97214

MS. JEAN BACK

Attorney at Law

1211 S.W. Fifth, Suite 1900

Portland, OR 97204

David Anderson

INDEX

EXAMINATION BY:

Mr. Rice

Ms. Dunaway

Ms. Back

EXHIBITS

No. 301 Diagram of scene

PAGE NO.

3 - 84

84 - 100

100 - 116

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Randall Stuart, 7 / 1 4 / 2 0 0 8 Chasse v. Humphreys, et al.

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PORTLAND, OREGON; MONDAY, JULY 14, 2008

10 : 5 9 AM

* * *

RANDALL STUART

called as a witness in behalf of the Defendants,

having first been sworn by the Reporter,

testifies as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY MR. RICE:

Q. Good morning, Mr. Stuart.

A. Good morning.

Q. My name's Jim Rice. I'm a deputy city

attorney with Portland. We introduced ourselves to

each other briefly earlier. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You're here to have your deposition taken

this morning. Have you ever had your deposition taken

before?

A. No.

Q. Has anyone explained to you that it's a

question-and-format opportunity for the lawyers to

speak to a potential witness about a case?

A. Yes.

Q. And what I'm going to do is ask you

questions, as will others probably. And if my


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1 question's not clear to you, would you stop me and I

2 will try and change the wording of the question so it

3 makes sense to you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. No. 2, to help our court reporter, I need

6 you to give what you're doing now which is a verbal

7 response to the questions. In conversation we might

8 nod our head, but it makes it difficult for her to put

9 down the answer.

1 0 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you - - are you on any medication or

12 have any physical problems, anything, lack of sleep,

13 anything like that, that would make it difficult for

14 you to answer questions today?

15 A. NO.

16 Q. Have you had a chance to talk to a lawyer

17 about what a deposition is?

1 8 A. yes.

19 Q. Okay. And who was the lawyer that talked to

2 you about that?

21 A. My lawyer in California.

22 Q. Okay. And the last thing is if a witness is

23 asked a question in a deposition, if that person ended

24 up testifying in trial and they changed their answer,

25 a lawyer would have the opportunity to point that out

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1 to the jury or the judge. Do understand that as well?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. So it's important that we communicate

4 well - -5 A. Correct.

6 Q. - - do you understand that?

7 Would you tell us what your full name is,

8 please?

9 A. Randall Stuart.

10 Q. And would you spell that for the court

11 reporter?

12 A. R-A-N-D-A-L-L,nd Stuart is S-T-U-A-R-T.

13 Q. Have you gone by any other names?

14 A. NO.

15 Q . And what's your date of birth?

16 A.

17 Q . And what's your present address?

18 A.

2 Q . And how tall are you?

2 A. Five two.

22 Q. Okay. And how about your present

23 employment, are you presently employed?

24 A. Free-lance.

2 Q. Okay. And what kind of free-lance work do

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you do?

A. I'm a professor of theater so I job in to

universities.

Q. Okay. Are there any universities in the

last year that you've been working with?

A. Yes.

Q. And which universities are those?

A. Southern Oregon University in Ashland,

Oregon.

Q. How about your educational background, did

you graduate high school?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was your education after that?

A. Two further years.

Q. And where did you go to school?

A. San Francisco City College, San Francisco

State University.

Q. And did you have a major when you were

attending those institutions?

A. Yes.

Q. And what were those majors?

A. English.

Q. And what years were those?

A. ' 7 8 and then nine.

Q. Okay. And what kind of work have you done


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other than the present work which you're doing which

is working with theater?

A. I've always been a professional theater

artist.

Q. Okay. And do you act with local companies?

A. I'm predominantly a professor of theater,

Shakespeare and the Greeks, and a director of theater

productions.

Q. Okay. Have you had any medical training?

A. No.

Q. Were you ever in the military?

A. No.

Q. Have you had any training in psychology?

A. Yes.

Q. And how did that come about?

A. My training, it would be through education,

studying it at college, and then also in - - in the

field of the arts it's ever present.

Q. Okay. As a person who is in theater - - some

jobs we go to school and sort of get a learning

background and then end up in the employment field,

law would be one of those fields. Other fields are

much more I would call on-the-job training where

you're actually delving into the kind of work that

someone does. Is most of your training in theater

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1 from actually participating in theater?

2 A. No. It's participating at the American

3 Conservatory Theater from 1974 to '79 in what is now

4 their master's program, so it is what is called an

5 advanced training program. And you'll find them

6 around the country. And they deed MFAs to students

7 who train for three years, comprehensively.

8 Q. And did you go through the program that

9 actually gave you an MFA?

10 A. I went through the program before it was

11 accredited with its MFA status.

12 Q. And did they - - in certain kinds of fields

13 when someone has completed work and later on things

14 get more sort of technical or at least formalized they

15 may issue someone a degree after they've been through

16 a program. Did something like that happen to you?

17 A. Well, there were so many years and years of

18 folks that they did not.

19 Q. Okay. Have you had any involvement with law

2 enf orcement?

2 1 A. Involvement?

22 Q. Yes.

23 For example, sometimes people volunteer to

2 be on community boards. Anything like that?

25 A. Yes.


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1 Q. And could you tell us about that?

2 A. Attended Inner City Oakland Neighborhood

3 Watch meetings which included officers of the law from

4 Oakland.

Q. Okay. How about in Oregon, have you been in

any sort of neighborhood watch, anything like that

here?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. Do you have any relatives who are in

law enforcement?

A. Yes.

Q. And could you tell us about that?

A. Second cousins who I spend the holidays with

in the past, and they're on the San Francisco police

force.

Q. How long have you lived in the Portland

area?

A. This would be two and a half years.

Q. And did you come up from California?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever been to the Swindells

Apartments in Portland? Do you know what those are?

A. No, sir.

Q. All right. We're here to talk about

Mr. James Chasse and his unfortunate death. Are you





10

aware of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you met him before the incident where

you - - that you observed?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Have you met with his father or any

relatives of Mr. Chasse?

A. No, not met with them.

Q. Have you given any statements regarding what

you observed the day you saw Mr. Chasse interact with

the police?

A. Yes.

Q. And to whom have you given statements?

A. The police department.

Q. Okay. This is the Portland Police

Department?

A. M-hm.

Q. Anybody else?

A. A single interview on KGW television the

week of the event.

Q. Okay. Any others?

A. A single interview to The Oregonian the - -

two weeks after the event is my guesstimate.

Q. Okay.

A. Would have been within the week of the


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event, I'm not exactly sure.

Q. All right. Any others?

A. No.

Q. Have you had any training or experiences

with individuals with mental illness?

MR. STEENSON: Objection to the extent it

calls for speculation. But go ahead.

THE WITNESS: In the arts we deal with it a

lot, but - - but from an artistic perspective. So

medically, no.

Q. (By Mr. Rice) Okay. And first of all, there

are a wide variety of matters which might fall within

the term mental illness. Do you agree with that?

A. Can you repeat the question?

Q. There are a wide variety of conditions that

might fall within the term mental illness. Do you

agree with that?

A. Yes.

Q. And, for example, someone might be mildly

depressed or someone might be severely depressed. Do

you agree with that?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you dealt with people - - anyone,

either a family member or working with someone, who

you considered to have a severe mental condition?


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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And can you tell us who that person

was?

A. It seems like private information.

Q. Well, we're here in a question-and-answer

format today and I have the opportunity to ask you

about things. What I'm really trying to get is is

your sort of background and experiences because we're

going to get to what you observed at some point. Do

you understand that?

A. Yes.

Q. So what I'm trying to find out is I'm not

necessarily concerned at this point with the name of

the person - -A. Ah.

Q. - - but the kind of condition you're dealt - -

what you dealt with or observed.

A. Oh. Severe depression in a family member.

Q. Okay. How about schizophrenia, have you had

any contact that you know of with people who suffer

from schizophrenia?

MR. STEENSON: Objection to the extent it

calls for a medical conclusion.

Q. (By Mr. Rice) You can go ahead and answer

the question.

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A. Yes.

Q. And how did you come into contact with

someone who you thought suffered from schizophrenia?

A. By working with a family whose son suffers

from schizophrenia.

Q. Okay. And when you were working with that

person, was that working within the context of

theater?

A. No. That was in context of my reverandship.

Q. Okay. And do you have a degree in divinity

or other experience in that field?

A. Life-long study of divinity and - - and

certified in spiritual humanism.

Q. Okay. Who would give such a certification?

A. Certifications can be on line.

Q. Okay. Have you studied at any sort of

bricks-and-mortar-type institution, if that's a term

you're familiar with?

A. I'm constantly studying divinity. Sometimes

at bricks and mortar.

Q. Are you working toward a degree in that

field?

A. It'd be nice, but not necessary.

Q. Okay. Is it something that you do or have

done for remuneration, in other words, for money


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1 issues, or is this an interest of yours that's not

2 necessarily economically tied?

3 A. Correct, it is not economically tied.

4 Q. And are you presently studying with any

5 particular institution locally?

6 A. My own divinity study which is nightly.

7 Q. Okay. Within Divinity I think of there as

8 either being denominations or some sort of a

9 categorization maybe is a better word because it's a

10 very broad field. Do you, in your mind, focus on one

11 particular field of theology such as, I'm just going

12 to give you some examples, there are people who might

13 be - - it can be Judaism, it can be Islam, it can be

14 many denominations of Protestantism, Roman

15 Catholicism, Greek Orthodox?

16 A. I've got you. I've done them all. I've

17 often done co-servicing with rabbis, priests,

18 ministers, in weddings, funerals, memorial services,

19 baby-naming ceremonies. I would call myself

2 0 pantheistic.

2 Q. Okay. In that training then you've had some

22 experience with someone who suffered from

2 schizophrenia?

2 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you engage in a counseling role with


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them?

A. It was around the issue of a dying family

member so it was part of the landscape of that several

weeks.

Q. Okay. And was the dying person the

individual that suffered from schizophrenia?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Was - - so there was a family member

who was attending that suffered from that condition?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that locally or someplace else?

A. East Coast.

Q. East Coast.

And was that something you were involved

with for weeks?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. From what you understood, was that

person on any sort of medication that was prescribed?

A. I was aware that in his past he was on

medication. The question was whether he was at that

point.

Q. Okay. What kind of behavior did you notice

with that person that might lead you to conclude that

that person was in fact afflicted with schizophrenia?

A. Clear emotional ups and downs, some rage


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issues in his case, hearing voices, not tracking or

eating well.

Q. Okay. Did - - did the individual who you

were attending ultimately pass away?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any further contact with that

person who suffered from schizophrenia following that

event

A. In - - indirect, and as it is a family - -

this is a friend of the family.

Q. Okay. And does that mean you spoke to him

like on the telephone or corresponded - -

A. M-hm.

Q. - - with him?

A. M-hm.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Once, yes.

Q. Just once.

Has that ended actually?

A. The communication thus far, yeah.

Q. Okay. How long ago was that?

A. One and a half years ago.

Q. Okay. Any other contact with an individual

who you believe suffered from schizophrenia or was

that it?


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A. That's it.

Q. Okay. In - - in divinity training, is there

training you've gone through dealing with people who

suffer from mental illness?

A. My training is specifically in thanatology.

Q. And could you tell us what that means?

A. Yes.

Q. Go ahead.

A. The - - the grief counseling in death and

dying situations.

Q. Okay.

A. When someone is on their deathbed in the

last ten days to ten hours, thanatology comes into

play as a way to comfort, think out loud, be prayerful

with a family and the members who are experiencing

that passing.

Q . Okay. With regard to the incident on N.W.

23rd and Everett with Mr. Chasse, you know what I'm

talking about, don't you?

A. Yeah.

MR. STEENSON: 13th actually.

MR. RICE: 13th, excuse me.

Q. (By Mr. Rice) Did you review any documents

prior to coming here today for the deposition?

A. Yes.


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Randall Stuart, 7/14 /2008 Chasse v. Humphreys, et al.

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Q. And what documents did you review?

A. My original typed version to - - of complaint

to the police.

Q. Okay.

A. It's a four-page document. The - - how do

you say the iteration or the - - the telephone

interview that is then - -Q. Transcribed.

A. Transcribed, thank you.

Q. Sure.

A. The transcription of the interview with Lynn

Courtney - -Q. All right.

A. - - which was a few days after the event, a

summation of - - Lynn Courtney's summation of that

transcription.

Q. All right. Anything else?

A. I also have a copy of the - - my initial

complaint to the police but in a - - in the form that

one would pull it off the web.

Q. Okay.

A. Same words, just different typing.

Q. And where on the web do you know you got

that?

A. Well, these were supplied to - - these were

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supplied to me so that I could review them.

Q . Okay. Who gave you those?

A. Mr. Steensonls ffice - -

Q. All right.

A. - - provided these witness documents for me.

Q. And you brought those subject to the

subpoena; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could - - would you pass those over to me and

let me look at those for just a moment?

A. Sure. I donut now if you need that top

part.

Q . All right. 1'11 give you most of these

back. I'll give you one other document in a second.

MS. BACK: Can I see those? Sorry.

THE WITNESS: These ones?

MS. BACK: Yes. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Q. (By Mr. Rice) Prior of coming in here today,

have you gone back to N.W. 13th and Everett to look at

the scene?

A. No.

Q. Is that a part of town you transverse

periodically?

A. Well, periodically, yes.

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1 Q. Okay. Did you testify before the grand jury

2 in this case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know in what order of grand jury

5 witnesses you were?

6 A . My memory says I was first.

7 Q, Okay. Have you given - - beyond the

8 statement to Detective Courtney which you talked about

9 which was then transcribed off an audio cassette or - -10 audio somehow, have you given any other audio

11 statements?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Any video statements?

14 A. NO.

15 Q . Have you been asked to do either one of

16 those beyond what Officer Courtney asked you for?

17 A. NO.

18 Q . The day this happened I believe was a

19 Sunday. Does that recollect with you?

2 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Prior to observing what you saw at that

22 intersection, do you recall what your day was like?

23 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Could you tell me about that?

2 A. I attended a theatrical matinee at Artists

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Q. All right

A. And then we walked out of Cargo ending up on

the corner of the Bullseye Gallery which is the

northeast corner of the corner in question.

Q. Of the intersection?

A. Intersection, yeah.

Q. Had you had any alcohol to drink that day?

A. No.

Q. Were you on any prescribed medications of

any kind?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. And at some point in time when you

were there you observed Mr. Chasse; is that correct?

A. From the northeast corner I observed and

heard a great consternation, both vocally and

visually.

Q. So did the visual and the auditory sort of

occur at the same moment?

A. My looking up and perception of them, yes.

Q. Okay. And what did you see?

A. Mr. Chasse being pursued by three officers

of the law. My - - from mid block down towards the

corner in question.

Q. Were there any police vehicles around that

area at the time?


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2 3

A. Not that I was aware of at that moment.

Q. All right. How far did you observe the

police officers follow Mr. Chasse before there was

like physical contact between Mr. Chasse and one or

more of the officers?

A. By physical contact, you mean - -

Q. Touching him somehow, whatever that first

contact was. And we'll get to that later.

A. All right. The half block downhill grade,

some reaching out I suppose would constitute about

touching.

Q. Okay.

A. The takedown was at the corner.

Q. Okay. Do you think they touched him at any

time prior to the takedown occurring, or could you

tell?

A. My view began mid block.

Q. Okay.

A. My tracking began mid block.

Q. And as you're observing them run from mid

block to the corner, did you see him actually touch

him in any way, either with a hand or piece of

equipment?

A. Well, sure, because it ended in a takedown.

Q. Okay. And - - but prior to that takedown?


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1 I'm going to get to that. I'm wondering as he's

2 running along is someone shoving him or tapping him?

3 A. Well, a reach for.

4 Q. But you're not sure whether there was any

5 contact?

6 Because reaching to me means just placing

7 your hand out in front of you. Do you agree with

8 that?

9 A. They were all running at the same pace.

10 Q. Okay. Did you notice any difference among

11 the law enforcement officers with regard to their

12 uniforms?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q . And what did you notice that was different

15 about them?

16 A. One officer, the youngest, had a light green

17 uniform on.

18 Q. And what was the color of the uniforms of

19 the other two officers?

2 A. Blue and black, a combination, blue.

2 Q. Okay. And the officers are running after

22 Mr. Chasse; is that right?

23 A. Yep.

24 Q. Is Mr. Chasse carrying anything?

25 A. A backpack. And they are in - - their hands





2 5

are in contact with the backpack.

Q. Okay. What did you notice about

Mr. Chassels ppearance?

A. His - - his physical appearance?

Q. Yes. I mean, using any of your senses when

you first observed this beginning.

A. Lean, tall, skinny, nothing too

extraordinary.

Q. All right. Anything unusual about the

police officers that you saw following him?

A. By unusual you mean - - or - -Q. Well, you've had some experience with law

enforcement officers, and sometimes someone might tell

me I saw a law enforcement officer but his uniform was

unusual, he had a black helmet on, equipment,

something about him. Or did they appear to you to be

sort of normal street police attire?

A. Yes.

Q. That's correct, the latter one?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And then they ultimately came in

contact with Mr. Chasse; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you describe what you saw and heard?

A. Yes. The forceful tackle resulted in


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Randall Stuart, 7/14/2008 Chasse v. Hurnphreys, et al

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1 everyone going down in various ways, one officer

2 executing a judo roll of sorts in his fall, the other

3 skidding on his feet. But there was a moment that all

4 four men were on the ground.

5 Q. Okay. From listening to you, it sounds like

6 all four people landed at the same time. Is that

7 correct or not?

8 A. It was all split second, but quite - - quite

9 visually specific of four men running with great force

10 on a downhill resulting in a tumble and tackle of four

11 men, at least for that moment of the takedown everyone

12 on the ground.

13 Q. All right. Tackle can mean different things

14 to different people.

15 A. M-hm.

16 Q. Did you play football in high school?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Have you played football at all other than

19 perhaps tackle, touch - -

2 0 A. I know the rules of football.

21 Q. You know the rules of football. Do you

22 watch football on telephones?

23 A. No.

2 Q. Do you go to football games?

2 A. No.


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Q. Tackle could mean taking someone's arms and

plowing them to their back and knocking them down, it

could be hitting them in the feet making them tumble

over, it could be taking their arms and wrapping them

around somebody.

A. M-hm.

Q. How would you describe this tackle?

MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative. Go

ahead.

THE WITNESS: In the theater we have

licensed choreographers for fighting on stage so that

it's safe.

Q . (ByMr. Rice) Sure.

A. And so this phrase is also used in

choreographic sessions. And so tackle to me can mean

many things.

Q. Okay. And what did - - did you observe

something that makes you use the word tackle?

A. Seeing four large men fall to the ground

after running.

Q. Okay. Could you tell, from where you were,

whether all four of them impacted Mr. Chasse at the

same time or was it more like dominoes going over

where perhaps one person actually was the first in

contact with him and the others tumbling or did it




Randall Stuart, 7 / 1 4 / 2 0 0 8 Chasse v . Humphreys, e t al.

2 8

happen too quick?

A. All four did not impact on his body.

Q. Okay.

A. There would be the case of one - - one sense

of contact that seemed like part of the judo roll that

was executed so it was partial - -Q. All right.

A. - - upon his body.

Q. And let me stop you. Was his body on the

ground when that happened or was it in mid air?

A. It was on the ground.

Q. Okay. So one officer landed on the ground

and did this roll that you described?

A. Yeah. Mr. Chasse was pushed, he fell, and

within all the same sets of seconds down came officer

one executing a judo roll, one slipped on his feet and

to his bottom, I believe the young man in the green

out£ t.

Q. Was he the - - the green outfit that slipped

on his feet or the first one?

A. That's my memory - -Q. Okay.

A. - - is that his was a slip.

Q. All right.

A. And the third was somewhere in the midst of


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2

this very quick tumble slash tackle.

Q. Okay. From your vantage point when

Mr. Chasse fell, could you tell how his arms were

positioned?

A. No.

Q. Could you tell, during the fall of the

officers, how any of their arms were positioned?

A. No.

Q. Once the four individuals landed on the

pavement itself - -

A. M-hm.

Q. - - what happened next?

A. Much. What happened just next was a

continued pursual from ground and then up.

Q. And what do you mean by up?

A. People regaining - - getting back onto their

feet

Q. Okay. Did Mr. Chasse ever get back onto his

feet?

A. In the mix of the next three or four

minutes, yes.

2 Q . Okay. Did each of the other officers at

2 some point get back to their feet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. So they land on the ground and then

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3 0

you observed people getting up. Did that happen

immediately after they hit the ground?

A. The - - yeah. The pursual continued in a

chaotic fashion and it included certainly in swift

time all four getting back up.

Q. Okay. And when they got back up, did they

begin running again?

A. It stayed relatively contained in a

exuberant flailing of and dancing about and Mr. Chasse

dodging them.

Q. So was he - - was it more like - - did you

ever see a boxing match on television?

A. M-hm, yes.

Q. Okay. Sometimes in a boxing match one of

the persons is not running away but moving from side

to side or back and forward. Is that what Mr. Chasse

is doing? How is he dodging them?

A. He was surrounded by them. He's dodging and

ducking.

Q. Okay. And is he dodging and ducking people

trying to grab him or people trying to punch him or

what is it that he's dodging?

A. At this - - at this moment, the officers

grabbing at him.

Q. Okay. And did - - how long did that last?


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31

A. That segment would be 45 seconds.

Q. Okay. And when that segment ended, did the

altercation turn into something else?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was the next phase, if I can use

that phrase?

A. The next phase was the officers attempting

to gain control, beginning to use their arms in what

seemed like - - this next phase seemed like here comes

the arrest.

Q. Okay. Let me just back up for a moment.

When they're chasing Mr. Chasse, are the officers

saying anything to Mr. Chasse that you can hear?

A. It's quite verbal on everyone's part.

Q. Okay.

A. So yes, I think - - exact words I don't know,

but certainly the word stop would have been in there.

Q. Okay. Is Mr. Chasse saying anything back to

them?

A. Yes.

Q. What's he saying?

A. No, no, no.

Q. All right. And then the next thing that

happens is they're standing - - they get back up on

their feet and they're standing around each other?


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32

A. Yes.

Q. Hers odging them as you described?

A. Hers odging them and speaking.

Q. And what's he saying at that point?

A. What have I done, no, no, no, don't hurt me.

It's high pitched and it's fast speech.

Q. Is it a loud or quiet fashion?

A. High pitched and loud.

Q. Okay. And as someone in the theater there

are different not just modulations but tone that's

involved. How would you describe his tone?

A. For an adult male, I would say surprisingly

high pitched and panicked. I would say that there was

great stress and panic in his voice.

Q. All right.

A. Theatrical as we call it.

Q. And that's your background and so that's why

I'm asking you that. How about on the officers' part

when they're standing up, are the officers saying

anything to him?

A. They're just completing grabbing the bag - -

backpack and they are beginning - - they are saying get

down on your stomach, get down on your stomach.

Q. Okay. And how about the - - the - - both the

volume and the tone of their voice, how would you


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3 3

describe that?

A. Mighty.

Q. Mighty?

A. (Nods head.

Q. Was it loud?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you clearly hear them?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So we went from the phase of them

standing up to the next phase and they're ordering him

to the ground; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Does he comply?

A. There's a mixture of noncompliance and

dodging and the beginning of forcing him down.

Q. Okay. So the officers have their hands on

him - -A. Yes.

Q. - - is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it all three of them or can you tell

which ones?

A. Oh, it would be fair to say that. And mind

you, this is in millisecond increments - -

Q. Okay.


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3 4

A. - - that all three.

Q. And when they start pushing him down, does

he go down to the ground?

A. They're not very successful.

Q. Okay. He's able to resist the three

officers pushing on him?

A. Yes. He's moving in a I'd say circular and

surprisingly athletic manner.

Q. Okay. Would you describe him as being a

flexible person? And maybe you can't tell. Is that

right, is that what you're telling me?

A. I - - I don't know him so I wouldn't describe

him as a flexible person.

Q. All right. I'm just seeking his body

movements. For example, did you ever see - -

A. Ah.

Q. - - a martial arts like a kung fu movie where

someone's in that - - have you ever seen a movie like

that?

A. I prefer nonviolent movies.

Q. All right. Have you ever seen Crouching - -

was it Crouching Tiger, whatever that movie was?

A. It was beautiful.

Q. It was beautiful and sort of a combination

of dance I would call it and martial arts. Right?


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A. M-hm.

Q. And the movement of those actors are - - I

would describe are very flexible people.

A. In that moment of this incident, yes, he was

flexible.

Q . Okay. So he is dodging them and avoiding

them somehow. Ultimately, do they - - do the officers

push him to the ground?

A. Yes.

Q. Or is that what happened next?

A. A continued attempt to control Mr. Chasse at

this point includes pushing him down to the ground as

he says not on my stomach, not on my stomach.

Q. Okay.

A. And they are - - there are now feet on limbs

and - - and physical pressure pushing down from the

officers.

Q. Okay. I understand by pushing down you're

showing with your hands. Feet on limbs, what does

that mean?

A. A foot on a - - to keep him to the ground, an

officer's foot upon one of Mr. Chasse's foot - - feet.

Q. Okay. So one officer sort of pinning a foot

to the ground, is that how you would describe that?

A. Yes.


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Randall Stuart, 7 /14 /2008

Q. Okay.

A. In an attempt to I suppose move towards

handcuffing him.

Q. Okay. What happens next?

A. The handcuffing or next step doesn't seem to

be successful. There still seems to be much

adrenaline and consternation. In this next segment or

section many things happen. A Taser gun or a gun that

I then would assume was a Taser device is taken out

and through the next session is applied. One can hear

echoing on the building, the reverberation of that

instrument being fired.

Q. Was there any conversation among the

officers about the Taser that you heard?

A. Not that I heard.

Q. Okay. And prior to this incident, did you

have any familiarity with Tasers?

A. Passing familiarity, but not - - knowledge

that they existed.

Q. You knew they existed?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you understand how they operate?

A. M-hm.

Q. And what's your understanding of how they

operate?

Chasse v. Humphreys, et al.

3


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37

1 A. An electrical current that can help stun

2 somebody's system and some actually have a retracting

3 thing. I suppose that I know that there are two kinds

4 as best I would know from, you know, watching the

5 television and asking relatives.

6 Q. All right. And did your relatives talk to

7 you about the Taser, how it operates?

8 A. Didn't talk to the - - five or six years

9 ago - -

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. - - yeah. Not now.

12 Q. Do you remember what they said or is that

13 sort of a hazy memory?

14 A. It can render a arresting subject still.

15 Q. Okay. Anything else?

16 A. Oh, during that section? In the rising - -

17 in the control not being settled yet - -18 Q. Let me ask you: Do you know how long the

19 Taser was applied? Because you heard some noise.

20 A. I heard four distinct sounds that matched

21 the arm motion of the officer.

2 Q. Okay. And do you know how long they either

23 were in total, can you estimate that, or how long each

24 one was, whatever's easier for you?

25 A. They were in rather quick succession, the





38

1 four individual moments. And it would be hard for me

2 to know what the exact amount of the seconds in which

3 the Taser was applied would be.

4 Q. Okay. And how would you describe the sound?

5 A. It was both a sound from the instrument and

6 then a different kind of sound echoing on the

7 buildings. From the instrument itself a kind of low

8 electrical rattle with a slight pinning or pop.

Q. And what was the sound coming off the

buildings that was reverberating?

A. More of a mid-range pop.

Q. Were the officers saying anything when the

Taser was being applied that you heard?

A. The whole incident was vocal. It continued

get down, get down, not on my stomach, not on my

stomach.

Q. Okay.

A. In this - - oh.

Q. As you're observing, you're hearing the

noise, is there anything as you look at Mr. Chasse

that makes you think that electrical current's being

applied on him?

A. Well, a lot else was happening to him at the

same point. There was also fisticuffs during that

period of time. So we were observing several things


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Randall Stuart, 7 / 1 4 / 2 0 0 8 Chasse v. Hurnphreys, et al.

3 9

including that happening.

Q. All right. So was there so much happening

you can't attribute any particular thing to the Taser

itself?

A. He became unconscious a minute or so later.

Q. Okay. I meant at the time. And we'll get

to that next phase.

A. M-hm.

Q. You said there were fisticuffs as well.

Could you describe that for me?

A. Arms and legs - - arms and legs in use on the

subject.

Q. And is he erect, is he flat on the ground,

is he somewhere in between?

A. He's on the - - the ground almost handcuffed,

almost subdued.

Q . Okay. Do you know where his arms are when

that's happening? Can you see them?

A. They - - during the first part of this

section one arm was below him, one above, and then

very soon in this mix they had both his arms back.

Q. Okay. Can you tell - - as you're looking at

him are you looking at the right side of his body or

the left side of his body?

A. A lot of motion. At this - - and he wasn't


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4

always in the same position.

Q. Okay. Do you know which arm was tucked

underneath him when you described that and which arm

was out to one side?

A. That would be a millisecond of what I'm

describing.

Q. Okay. And is there any - - is there any way

between the two officers wearing blue, not the green

uniform, but the other two officers, that you can

distinguish between the two of them?

A. Between the two gentlemen?

Q. Yes.

A. Physically?

Q. Any way. I mean, I want to make one obvious

one, one appeared to be black, one appeared to be

white. I'm not saying that's the case. But is there

some way, in your mind, you can distinguish between

the two of them?

A. Yes.

2 Q . And what's - - how do you distinguish between

21 the two of them?

22 A. The slightly older of the gentlemen in blue

23 is mostly standing during the confrontation.

2 Q. All right.

2 A. The other gentleman in blue is - - is down


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4 1

and working on the arrest.

Q. Okay. The younger one?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

A. The younger man in blue.

Q. Younger man in blue, just between those two.

The green uniform makes it a little bit easier to

separate him out.

When Mr. Chassels own on the ground, do you

know, was it the younger one or the older one that is

holding his hand out to the side?

A. Can you repeat the question?

Q. Yes.

I think you told me at one point that one

officer was standing and Mr. Chasse's arm was either

out to the side or behind him somehow and his other

arm was tucked underneath him, and I1m rying to

determine if you know, if you know, which officer was

holding the arm to the side and which officer was

involved with his hand underneath him.

A. The older officer was more involved with his

own arms, the officer's arms, and Mr. Chassels pper

body at that moment in this phase of the arrest.

Q. Okay.

A. It is also in this phase of the arrest that


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42

1 to subdue Mr. Chasse I have a general recollection of

2 fists being thrown, fisticuffs, as well as kicking.

3 Q. Okay. Let's break those two down. Did you

4 see the older officer ever use his fist on Mr. Chasse?

5 A. Not that I recall.

6 Q. Okay. Did you see the younger officer in

7 blue ever use his fist on Mr. Chasse?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how many times did you see the younger

10 officer in blue use his fist on Mr. Chasse?

11 A. Many things were happening at once. I'll

12 say I can recall two.

13 Q. Okay. And when I ask you questions, I

14 understand you may not be able to give the definitive

15 answer to these things because things obviously

16 happened rapidly.

17 How about the officer in green, did you

18 observe him using his fist on Mr. Chasse?

19 A. I did not observe that.

2 Q. Okay. And when the officer in blue used his

21 fist twice on Mr. Chasse, could you tell whether it

2 was - - where the blows struck?

23 A. Oh, yes.

24 Q. And where did he come into contact with

25 Mr. Chasse?





43

1 A. Somewhere within the mid range. There was a

2 lot of motion at that moment.

3 Q. And mid range could mean a lot of things.

4 A. Between waist and neck.

5 Q. Okay. Is the conversation continuing as

6 you've indicated before lie on your stomach and

7 Mr. Chasse saying no, or has the conversation changed

8 in any way?

9 A. Mr. Chasse is consistently saying no to

10 the - - the Taser implementations and wiggling and

11 moving.

12 Q . During this episode, I'm not sure I've asked

13 you, where was the officer in green? Was he in

14 contact with Mr. Chassers ody?

15 A. They were all in contact with Mr. Chassels

16 body.

17 Q . And were they all up in the torso area or

18 were they - - one officer has his arm at one point to

19 the side, the older officer. The younger officer's on

2 0 the other side either pulling his arm or other side of

21 the body. Where's the officer in green at that point,

22 if you know?

2 A. Towards the bottom Mr. Chasse's body.

24 Q. All right.

2 A. And my memory - - yeah, yeah.





4 4

Q. All right. So is the next phase when

Mr. Chasse's cuffed or is there something else that

transpires we've not talked about?

A. We've spoken of kicking.

Q. You're right.

Who kicked Mr. Chasse that you observed?

A. The kicking that I observed would have been

from the younger officer in blue.

Q. Okay. And when he did that, was he lying on

his side kicking him, was he standing up and kicking

him?

A. Mr. Chasse was about 80 percent contained at

this point. Again, it was not a complete arrest yet.

Q. All right. And the younger officer kicked

him; is that correct?

A. During the period of Taser, kicking, and

fists, yes.

Q. Okay. How many times did you observe the

younger officer kick Mr. Chasse?

A. It'd be safe to say three.

Q. Okay. And kicking to me means the use of

the person's foot. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And kicking could theoretically be either

the direct toe going into somebody or it could be the


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4

1 side of someone's foot. Could you tell what the kick

2 looked like from where you were?

3 A. It would have been toe, toe to flesh.

4 Q. All right. Did you see any - - any other

5 officer kick Mr. Chasse?

6 A. So much was happening so I - - I shall say

7 no.

8 Q. Prior to the actual cuffs being on

9 Mr. Chasse, has there been any physical force,

10 punching, kicking, anything like that, that we've not

11 talked about at this point?

12 A. In the melee there could have been a slap or

13 two.

14 Q. Okay. And by slap, that's something - - an

15 open hand?

16 A. Yeah. Against flesh.

17 Q. Okay. Can you attribute any open-handed

18 slaps by any officer to Mr. Chasse?

19 A. No, sir. It was sound.

2 Q. Is there any way of you coming up and saying

2 I heard a certain number of slaps, I heard three

22 slaps, I heard eight slaps, whatever?

23 A. In this section of the arrest?

2 Q. Yes.

25 A. (Shakes head.)


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4 6

Q. The answer's no?

A. The answer's no.

Q. Is there anything else we've not talked

about in terms of physical force prior to Mr. Chasse

being handcuffed?

A. Not prior, no.

Q. Okay. During this entire time, have you

remained on the northeast corner of the intersection?

A. No, sir. I've moved from northeast to

southeast.

Q. Okay. At what point during the altercation

that we've just talked about did you move from the

northeast to the southeast?

A. Perhaps 30 seconds after the takedown

moment.

Q. Okay. From the time you first observed

Mr. Chasse to him being cuffed, do you have an

estimate of how much time that was?

A. Observed Mr. Chasse halfway up the block

being - -

Q. Right.

A. - - chased?

Until when?

Q. Until the point hers ctually handcuffed.

A. Some - - somewhere in the four-minute mark.


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4

Q. All right. So when Mr. Chasse's handcuffed,

is he on his stomach, is he on his back, is he on his

side? How would you describe his body position?

A. Stomach and soon to be on his side.

Q. Okay. And when we say handcuffed, he's

cuffed behind his back; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And how did Mr. Chasse get from being on his

stomach to on his back? Did he roll over himself or

was he assisted by the law enforcement officers?

A. I'm sorry, repeat that question.

Q. When Mr. Chasse went from being cuffed on

his stomach to cuffed on his side, did he, on his own,

move his body to his side or did the law enforcement

officers place him on his side, if you know?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. Okay. Once Mr. Chasse is lying on his side,

is he saying anything?

A. He's - - his voice is diminishing and his

energy is diminishing, but he's still crying and - -

and does use the word mercy here and he continues to

say no, no, no.

Q. Okay. And what are the police officers

doing?

A. Standing above him looking down.

Schrnitt & Lehrnann, Inc.

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4

Q. Okay. Have any of the police officers

arrived at the scene or is it still just the three

officers that you have observed?

A. Much was happening. By this point there are

more officials there.

Q. And by officials are we talking about police

officers?

A. That's - - that's my memory.

Q. Okay.

A. There are not emergency vehicles here quite

yet.

Q. Okay. We'll get to that I'm sure soon.

A. Oh.

Q. So police officers are standing above him.

Mr. Chasse's on his side. Are they saying anything to

him?

A. I don't remember words at this point.

Q. Okay. What's the next thing that happens?

A. I believe medical arrives right at this

moment.

Q. Okay. Is there more than one medical unit

that arrives?

A. There is a big truck and a smaller truck.

Q. Do you know which one of them arrived first?

A. They were in order, the - - what one thinks


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49

of as an ambulance, the shape of a minivan but an

ambulance sized, and then something closer to a - -perhaps a fire truck or a slightly larger vehicle.

Q. All right. Do you recall which one of those

arrived first, the ambulance or the fire truck?

A. It seemed at the identical moment.

Q. All right. Did EMTs is what I'm going to

call them, medic people, did the EMTs leave their

vehicles and approach Mr. Chasse?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did you observe as they approached

Mr. Chasse?

A. Discussion between they and the arresting

officers and the officers that were gathering.

Q. How far are the EMTs and the police officers

from Mr. Chasse?

A. You mean in their car or in - -Q. When they're talking together. I mean, are

they three feet from Mr. Chasse, are they ten feet

from Mr. Chasse?

A. There's a group around him so that would be,

what, two feet perpendicular - - or standing up, and

then another group near a now parked police car on

Everett yet another ten feet away.

Q. Did the EMTs from the ambulance and the EMTs


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5 0

from the fire truck stay together or did they divide

up?

A. I wasn't tracking that at that moment.

Q. All right. What - - could you hear what the

police officers and the EMTs were talking about?

A. Yes. Now - - at this point, yes, you could

hear some conversation.

Q. Okay. What conversation did you hear that

transpired between the law enforcement officers and

the EMTs?

A. For me it was specifically hearing from the

EM - - the female EMT - -Q. Okay.

A. - - he's bleeding from his mouth.

Q. Okay. When you're standing looking at

Mr. Chasse at that point, are you seeing his face or

are you seeing his back, are you seeing his feet?

What's the - -A. At this point it's his back, his head is

going north.

Q. Okay. And at that point, had you seen

Mr. Chasse bleeding at all?

A. Yes. During the fisticuff section I saw one

of his arms with a large red gash as well as a large

bruise.


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Randall Stuart, 7 /14 /2008 Chasse v. Humphreys, et al

5

Q. Okay. And the EMT said he's bleeding from

the mouth; is that right?

A. That's what I heard.

Q. Did you hear any response to that from

anybody?

A. I heard no verbal response.

Q. Okay. Did you see any response?

A. Further discussion as if she was being

updated on what had just happened.

Q. Okay. How long did that discussion take

place before any EMT approached Mr. Chasse?

A. She - - she had already approached. They

were quite close to him, over him.

Q. Okay. So when she's saying he's bleeding,

is she actually at Mr. Chasse's side?

A. No. She's walking towards him.

Q. All right. And when she walks toward him,

what do you see her do or hear her do?

A. There's some discussion and then in relative

posthaste she kneels down and begins to assess.

Q. Okay. And did you see her either treat

Mr. Chasse or test Mr. Chasse in some fashion?

A. Yes. I got the sense that - - that there was

a - - perhaps a - - you know, an arm cuff for blood

pressure, that there was the beginning of an


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52

assessment.

Q. As she's approaching Mr. Chasse is she

carrying anything?

A. Yes. She or perhaps someone with her,

there's a - - like a black medical kit or tool kit.

Q. And they begin to assess Mr. Chasse. Is he

still on the ground on his side handcuffed?

A. Yes.

Q. What's the next thing you observe?

A. Mr. Chasse going limp and beginning to

change color.

Q . Okay. And when he went limp, are you still

looking at him from his - - you're looking at his back

at that point in time?

A. Yeah. Sort of a three quarter so not

totally his back.

Q. And when you say he goes limp, is it a slump

or how would you describe that?

A. A crump.

Q. So his body just becomes loose?

A. Yeah. His - - his vocal speech diminishes

and disappears and he goes loose - -

Q. Okay.

A. - - as you might observe someone fainting

perhaps.


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53

1 Q . All right. Is there any way - - as you look

2 at his hands, can you tell what color they are, if

3 there's been any change in color?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when you look at his hands, what do you

6 see?

7 A. The color draining from them.

8 Q. And what color would they be turning into or

9 toward?

10 A. After about two to three minutes they were

11 quite blue gray

12 Q. Okay. Could you see his face at all during

13 this point?

14 A. Kind of a quarter view, not a full view.

15 Q. Okay. When you looked at his face, could

16 you tell any change in color?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And what could you observe?

19 A. His forehead also turning quite gray and

2 blue.

21 Q . Okay. And is the - - are the EMTs around him

22 at that time?

23 A. The EMTs and the officers, yes, are circled

2 around him.

2 Q. And the officers.


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54

1 And do you see any reaction, on their part,

2 to this change that you're observing?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. What's the next thing that

5 happened?

6 Can you hear any conversation among them,

7 the EMTs and the police officers at that time?

8 A. There is conversation, but it goes off

9 voice.

10 Q. Okay. What's the next thing you either see

11 or hear happen?

12 A. A great pause of very little happening which

13 seemed odd. The older of the officers stepping away

14 to glove up and assess and he says what - - we hear one

15 word which is the word from that officer bite and he

16 moves away and looks at his arm and gloves up.

17 Q. Okay. And what's the next thing that you

18 observe happening?

19 A. Minutes go by and they're standing and off-

2 voice discussion.

2 Q. And by off-voice discussion, you mean you

22 can't hear what's being said?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. What's the next thing you observe

25 happening?


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5 5

A. After about two minutes or so, perhaps

three, at that point Mr. Chasse's fingers begin to

move as if they are awakening.

Q. From the first time that you observed him go

limp to that point in time, do you have an estimate of

the time lapse in between there?

A. I'm going to estimate anywhere between two

and four minutes.

Q. Okay. What's the next thing that occurs?

A. He reanimates slowly, fingers first, color

in fingers first. And once he is reanimated he

becomes vocal immediately.

Q. And when he's vocal, what do you hear?

A. Help me, help me.

Q. Okay. Is --'can ou tell, is he looking at

someone, is he just - -A. Nearby - -Q. - - shouting this out?

A. - - the - -Well, they're all there. The - - the EMT,

the lead gal who had helped him earlier by taking his

blood pressure or what have you, is there and they

make eye contact. She and Mr. Chasse make eye

contact.

Q. Okay. Is she standing at that point or is


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5

she still kneeling?

A. Well, she had been standing a lot during the

pause. She is kneeling when he reanimates.

Q. Okay. Is she doing something to him when

that's going on or she just happened to be kneeling

when that happens?

A. Kneeling.

Q. During this time that the EMTs have been

near or in the vicinity of Mr. Chasse, he's wearing a

shirt; is that right?

A. Yeah. Hers n a shirt and coveralls - - or

trousers. Yes, he's dressed.

Q. Can you observe, considering his clothing,

whether or not his chest is moving?

A. Do you mean at this moment in the - - that

I'm describing?

Q. Yeah.

A. Well, hers wake and speaking at this point.

Q. Okay. How about when he went limp, during

2 that phase was his shirt such or the way the shirt was

21 on his body that you could tell whether or not his

22 chest was moving?

23 A. I was, again, mostly viewing his back with

2 about a three quarter on his body. And it was clear

2 he was not breathing. The only place his shirt was


(360) 695-5554 * (503) 223-4040




57

ruffled to my view was exposed his arm. Perhaps the

shirt had been ripped.

Q. So when you were looking at him and he was

limp, it's your impression that he was not breathing;

is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. When he again starts to interact with the

female EMT who's kneeling beside him, what do you

observe transpire?

A. Off voice at this point she seems to create

a comforting something and - - with the idea of saying

I'll be right back, and so she stands as if to go get

something and he screams mightily for her don't leave,

don't leave.

Q. Okay. When she walks away, is she carrying

anything?

A. I don't have a memory of that.

Q. Does the EMT leave the immediate area

Mr. Chasse is?

A. She may be only going over to - - to her

things, her - - her medical needs.

Q. Okay.

A. She comes back swiftly.

Q. So she comes right back to Mr. Chasse?

A. Relatively swiftly.


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58

Q. And the officers and the other EMTs are

still standing around; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. While this is transpiring, are there more

police officers that are arriving at the scene?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And are they parking their cars in

the immediate area of Mr. Chasse?

A. Yes and no.

Q. Some were?

A. Cars parked on Everett and - - yeah, they're

about.

Q. Okay. And when she returns to Mr. Chasse,

can you hear conversation between Mr. Chasse and the

female EMT?

A. The question again?

Q. When the female EMT comes back to

Mr. Chasse, can you hear any conversation between the

two of them?

A. No, because itls covered by him - - his - -his vocal excitement again. He's scared of something

she's going to do.

Q. And by vocal excitement, is this the

high-pitched - -A. High pitched.


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5

1 Q. - - noise you described earlier?

2 A. No, no, don't touch me.

3Q.

All right. Is he- -

is she doing something

4 to him? Can you see that she's actually touching him

5 or doing something to him?

6 A. Something to do with his left arm.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. It seems as if there's something in her hand

9 like a cylinder. I - - he begins to animate and wiggle

10 and move and - - and the game is on again. They're

11 having to control him - -12 Q. Okay.

13 A. - - as they - - as she tries to do something,

14 a test or something.

15 Q. And when they begin to control him, is this

16 EMTs trying to hold him down or - -

17 A. No.

18 Q. - - is it police officers?

19 A. Police officers.

2 Q. Is it the same officers that were involved

21 earlier with Mr. Chasse?

22 A. To the best of my recollection, while I

23 watched - -2 Q . Okay.

25 A. - - with interest what she was doing.


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6

1 Q. Okay. So are they using their hands to hold

2 him still while the EMT apparently is doing something

3to him?

4 A. In my view at least one of them, yes.

5 Q. All right. Are - - do you observe any blows

6 or kicks or anything like to him at that time or are

7 they simply holding him in place?

8 A. Don't recall, but certainly holding in

9 place.

10 Q. Do you actually see the female EMT do

11 something to him with this device she has in her hand

12 or could you tell?

13 A. I - - I don't know if it was successful, if

14 it was just a swab or a test or a - - something

15 helpful.

16 Q. Okay. And when that is concluded, does she

17 then stand up or does she remain kneeling?

18 A. Well, they've moved from - - from - -

19 everyone's moved because hers een able to wiggle

2o away.

21 Q. How far did he wiggle?

2 A. Five to six feet.

23 Q. So he wiggles, she uses the device to

24 whatever - - whatever that was. When she's - - does she

25 conclude that somehow and then change her body





61

position, the EMT? Does she stand up, does she walk

away, does she stay with him?

A.I think they all stayed within his sphere.

Q . Okay. What's the next thing that happened?

A. They completed the secondary movement of the

black strap or hog tie, I don't know the proper word

for it, the restraining device that is long and black

and like a rope. And they - - they had partially put

that on him when - - just before he went into

unconsciousness. They completed that situation.

Q. Okay. And by completed that, what did you

observe?

A. I observed the second stage of - - of his

legs being tied at one end and his arms being tied at

another.

Q. Okay. His arms are behind him; is that

right?

A. Behind him.

Q. You're indicating the front, but he was - -

his arms are behind him and are handcuffed still; is

21 that right?

2 2 A. (Nods head.

2 3 Q. And is it a tightening of the strap, is that

24 how you would describe it?

25 A. If not a tightening right in that moment,


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62

it's soon to occur that it's tightened.

Q. Okay. Once that had transpired, what's the

next thing that happened?

A. Still a lot going on.

Q. Well, what else is going on?

A. There's a clear decision that the officers

are going to take him.

Q. And what leads you to that conclusion?

A. He was lifted in the air and it resulted in

him being taken in the air up - - back up the street

from whence the event began.

Q. Was he picked up?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know how many officers picked him up?

A. Certainly two - -Q. Okay.

A. - - possibly a helper.

Q. All right. So there was at least one or

maybe two?

A. Yeah.

Q. And how were they holding him to pick him up

off the ground and take him?

A. Like one would carry a deer.

Q. Okay. Someone was in the front and someone

was in his torso area and one was in his legs?


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63

1 A. I remember at least two. If there had been

2 three I suppose they would have been all over his

3 body, but it seemed more as if he was hanging.

4 Q. Okay. So what part of the - - was there one

5 officer more near his head and one more near his feet

6 or were they side by - - across from each other?

7 A. Fair to say one at head and one at feet.

8 Q. Okay. The officer that was near his head,

9 what part of Mr. Chasse's body was he holding on to or

10 touching?

11 A. I'm unclear. I'm - - my thought was

12 shoulders.

13 Q. All right. And was the other officer

14 holding him like around his legs?

15 A. It would have been either legs or feet.

16 Q. Okay. And those two officers then carried

17 Mr. Chasse to a car; is that right?

18 A. Carried him back uphill on Everett away with

19 Mr. Chasse vocalizing again and just as strongly.

2 Q. Okay. So he was loudly again using that

21 high-pitched noise; is that right?

22 A. Where his voice sits in his - - yeah, in his

2 body he was still saying, with remarkable energy, no,

2 no, what have I done, no, don't touch me, mercy.

25 Q. Okay. Was he saying that in a clear voice


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64

that you could understand?

A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Q. And was it loud?

A. Well, it was moderate - - moderate compared

to what it had been previously in the event.

Q. Okay.

A. It was clear.

Q. All right. Did you actually see where the

officers took Mr. Chasse when they carried him?

A. Up and out of our view up Everett uphill.

Q. Okay. So it was around the corner so you

couldn't actually see where they took him to; is that

right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. What's the next thing that

happened at the actual scene?

A. Another officer walked towards my friend

Constance and I.

Q. So this is not the younger officer or the

older officer or the officer in green but a different

individual?

A. Yeah. An individual who had arrived on the

scene mid.

Q. Mid event?

A. Mid event.


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6

1 Q . Do you know what that officer's name is?

2 A. I do not.

3 Q. Okay. And when that officer - - did he

4 approach Miss Doolan?

5 A. He met her eyes first, yes.

6 Q. Okay. And what transpired between the two

7 of them?

8 A. He said are you interested in what happened

9 just now?

10 Q. Okay. What did - - did she say something

11 back?

12 A. I don't know if it's appropriate for me to

13 say what she said.

14 Q. You can tell us.

15 A. She nodded and said yes.

16 Q . Okay. Was there any - - anything more to the

17 conversation than that?

18 A. M-hm.

19 Q . What - - did the officer reply to her?

2 A. M-hm.

2 Q. What was the reply the officer made to

2 Miss Doolan?

23 A. Though not verbatim, it was an instant

2 accusation of Mr. Chasse, so it was in the - - the

2 nature of the neighborhood of, oh, he has 14 prior


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66

convictions of crack.

Q. Did he say anything other than that at that

time? Is there more to his statement or does that end

his statement?

A. Miss Doolan responded.

Q. Miss Doolan responded?

A. M-hm.

Q. And what did Miss Doolan say back?

A. That may or may not be the case, officer,

but what we just witnessed was quite violent.

Q. Did he respond to that?

A. He got in the police car that was nearby and

rolled up the windows and drove away.

Q. Did anyone ask him for a business card or

some sort of identification?

A. There was no time.

Q. Okay. Was there any conversation you either

were involved with or Miss Doolan was involved with

with any other officer?

A. No, sir.

Q. All right. So when he - - when that officer

gets in the car and drives away, what else do you see

happening?

A. A - - a closing up of the event: People

packing up, getting back into vehicles; a gentleman


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6

1 coming out with a spray bottle to spray the asphalt

2 area where the blood had been.

3 Q. Could you see the blood prior to that on the

4 ground?

5 A . There was blood on his body and - - yeah,

6 certainly a darkness of blood upon black asphalt.

7 Q. Okay. Can you estimate for me how big an

8 area that that blood covered?

9 A. Nine inches by 12 inches.

10 Q . Okay. And - -

11 A. It's a guesstimate.

12 Q. All right. And he has a spray bottle and

13 he's spraying that area; is that right?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Is it mopped up somehow or does he just

16 spray something on it and walk away?

17 A. There may have been mopping, but the event

18 happened.

19 Q. Okay. Did you have any conversation with

2 any of the EMTs that arrived on the scene?

2 A. No. Though as everything was coming to a

22 close and Mr. Chasse was being brought up Everett and

2 out of our sight there was clear vocal mocking that

24 happened from someone who was either - - the EMT or the

25 fire department. And we witnesses turned to each





6 8

other and said did we just hear that?

Q. What did you hear when you heard these

statements?

A. The mocking of Mr. Chasse's cries for help,

so a child-like imitation of it.

Q. Is there any way of attributing that to any

person other than what you've already told us?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how can you attribute that to any

person?

A. He was dressed differently, had a different

haircut, and I remember who he was.

Q. Okay. Have you ever seen any pictures of

anyone, been able to figure out who he is?

A. I would be - - I d be able to.

Q. You could, but you have not to this date; is

that right?

A. (Nods head.

Q. Can you describe the kind of clothing that

he had on?

A. M-hm. Yellowish lime green, those big

utility trousers that I'm assuming are a fireman's

trousers that have suspenders hanging off of them, and

a longer haircut.

Q . All right. Race?


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69

A. Caucasian.

Q. Anything about his height or weight or some

physical characteristic that stands out to you?

A. A healthy young man of maybe, you know, six

feet or so, healthy, strong, Caucasian male.

Q. All right. And when there was - - were you

the person that said did I jut hear that or did

someone else say that?

A. It was a group consensus.

Q. How many people are standing around that are

what I'm just going to call independent individuals,

not involved with the scene itself?

A. Well, one could - - could see that various

corners have various groups of people. Our corner,

which is the Blue Hour corner and the steps leading up

to the Blue Hour restaurant, our immediate area has

six to eight people, not all of whom stayed through

the entire incident or arrived at the same time, so - -

Q. All right. And were you on - - the Blue

Hour, as I recall, there's some steps that lead up and

there's sort of a patio maybe - -

A. Yes, sir, outside door dining.

Q. - - maybe three or four feet off the ground,

something like that. Is that right?

A. Yes.


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70

1 Q. Okay. And you were on the ground when

2 this - - when you observed these things; is that right?

3 A. No. My - - I was up probably on the - - if

4 not the first step that would have then led to that

5 dining area, then the second step down.

6 Q. Okay. And Constance Doolan, did she remain,

7 I mean, in physical proximity during this time?

8 A. By my side, yep.

9 Q. Okay. And was she below you or above you or

10 standing on the same step?

11 A. My memory is she might have been on the step

12 just below me. She's tall.

13 Q. I haven't had a chance to meet her yet.

14 Is there anything else you observed that day

15 other than the spraying of the street by the fire

16 bureau person or paramedic, whoever that was, and the

17 officers leaving? Did anything else transpire that

18 day we have not talked about?

19 A. A piece of bread was taken out of a backpack

20 and put on top of an officer's car.

21 Q. When did that happen?

22 A. Relatively early in it all. Once they had

23 his backpack and opened it, one person must have been

2 quickly opening it while things continued to

25 transpire. That was put on top of the police car.





7

1 Q . So while the struggle was going on an

2 officer picked up the backpack and put it on the car?

3 A. Somewhere in the mix there, yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Relatively early. It was there exposed as

6 the heel of a piece of bread, you know, bread there.

7 Q . Okay. So did you see them take this object

8 out of the backpack itself - -

9 A. Yes.

10 Q . - - this bread?

11 Was it loose or was it in a bag, anything

12 like that you recall?

13 A. My recollection of it was that it was a heel

14 of bread exposed.

15 Q. All right. Was the officer that did that

16 someone who had arrived at the scene or was it one of

17 the officers who initially had been chasing

18 Mr. Chasse?

19 A. I'm not positive.

2 Q. Did you see them do anything with regard to

21 the backpack other than reaching in and taking out the

22 piece of bread?

23 A. No, not in the midst of all that was

2 happening.

25 Q. Okay. At this point in time, my





7

understanding would be street's been sprayed, the

officers are leaving, you and Miss Doolan are standing

on the steps to the Blue Hour. Is there anything else

that happens or do you leave the scene at that time?

A. We do not leave the scene. We collect our

thoughts and stay. And we eat french fries at the

Blue Hour.

Q . Okay. Of the people who were around the

Blue Hour that day, did you by chance know any of

those people?

A. No, sir.

Q. They were strangers to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any conversations with the

people who were at the Blue Hour about the events you

had seen?

A. Only to ask a waiter - - there was - - people

were discussing and moving on and going home.

Q. M-hm.

A. To ask a waiter if they had all experienced

what we had experienced.

Q. And did the person - - the waiter respond to

you?

A. He said - - he said, oh, yes, one of our

employees was - - was present.


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7 3

Q . Okay. Did you know that employee or - -A. No.

Q . - - speak to that employee?

A. No.

One other thing happened. As we ate french

fries about 20 minutes later an unmarked black car

with very dim windows drove by in a slow fashion as if

it were rechecking out the area.

Q. Okay. Anything else?

A. No.

Q. So Miss Doolan and you had your food and

then you left. Did you go back to the play?

A. I'm trying to remember whether we went back

to attend the play again as it was a play I had

directed or whether we went home. I believe we went

home. I think we were in no mood to watch the play

again.

Q . Okay. And by directed, had you directed it

at that theater or at some other time?

A. I was the - - the stage director of the

production performing at that time.

Q. Isee.

Did you have any responsibility that night

there, any work responsibility?

A. No. Once the director's directed the show


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they're done.

Q. Okay. What I've tried to do was, and I'm

not an artist, unlike you - -

MR. STEENSON: Just a second, just you're

entitled to a break. If you want to break at some

point, I don't know whether you need one or not or

keep going, but that's up to you.

THE WITNESS: Be nice to use the men's room.

Q. (By Mr. Rice) Fine. Any time after you've

answered a question you can just ask to take a break.

A. Yes.

(Recess: 12:24 to 12:30 PM.)

Q. (By Mr. Rice) I have made some - - some crude

diagrams here and I'm going to ask you to begin by

using one of these. And I'm going to ask you where

some of the events transpired.

The difference I've tried to make really is

just that there's more room on one of them than the

other one in terms of placing objects on here. So I'm

going to suggest you use this one. And I'm going to

have our court reporter mark it as an exhibit, but if

you're more comfortable using the second version I'm

happy to use either one of those, and if you want to

create your own diagram you're also free to do that.

A. I'm wondering whether, please forgive me,


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75

whether Everett and 13th are in the right direction,

if the Blue Hour - - if the Blue Hour is on this

corner, this is Everett.

Q. I have Everett going this way and - -

A. And the Blue Hour would be there, would it

not?

MR. LANDRUM: Everett is east and west, and

13th is - -

Q. (By Mr. Rice) I have a different diagram

then. How about trying that one?

A. I like this one.

Q. All right. There we go. Do you have a pen

with you or should I give you a pen?

A. I'll borrow one from you.

Q. Here's one right here.

A. Oh, should we - -Q. Let her mark that as an exhibit.

(DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 301 was marked for

identification.)

Q. (By Mr. Rice) So I'm going to hand you

what's been marked as Exhibit 301.

A. M-hm.

Q. Does that roughly depict the intersection?

A. Oh, that's a paint line, curb lane, raised

walk, oh, gotcha. Yeah, it does. I see where the


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76

tree is there, but I know, just from walking Everett

for years now, that there's a tree just beyond this

line that I - - is where I would start my observation.

Q. Okay. So maybe not everything's on the

diagram itself?

A. Right. Although - -Q. Do you mind if I stand next to you so we can

look at this thing together as I ask you some

questions about it?

A. Sure.

Q. Thank you.

So when you're looking at Exhibit 301,

there's - - you can't see on the diagram where you

first observed Mr. Chasse; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At some point in time, though, you've told

us that the officers were following Mr. Chasse and

they were running together and ultimately they came

into initial contact with him; is that right?

A. M-hm.

Q. And that's when they fell to the ground?

A. That's when they fell to the ground.

Q. Could you mark, with a No. 1, where on the

diagram you believe they fell to the ground.

A. And then we may have other locations to


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77

come.

Q. Right. So let's just start with the No. 1

and we'll - -A. This is the sidewalk. There's the end of

the building, okay. Well, of course it was in motion,

but I believe the first - - the reason I'm holding off

is that I do feel I know where the pool of blood was

but that's a different part of the story.

Q. Why don't we get to that a little later. So

the first place would be where they fell to the

ground.

A. (Witness complied.)

Q. There's a 1 there.

And the second thing would be they got up

and they moved somewhat and then there was another

portion of the altercation?

A. M-hm.

Q. And would you put a No. 2 where that

occurred.

A. (Witness complied.

Q. Did the Tasering take place at No. 2 or did

that take place somewhere else?

A. No. 2 equals a lot of motion, but it's this

general area, and that's where the Tasering took

place.


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78

1 Q. And then No. 3, is that the same place that

2 Mr. Chasse was handcuffed or is that someplace

3 different?

4 A. I'm sorry, I'm looking at this paint line

5 assuming it's the top of the curb line. Those still

6 are fine.

7 Am I allowed to draw an area?

8 Q. Sure.

9 A. (Witness complied.)

10 Q. So within that area is where an altercation

11 occurred and he was handcuffed; is that correct?

12 A. He was Tasered and eventually handcuffed.

13 There was some travel, and I do mean quick travel,

14 into this area.

15 Q. And that would be area No. 3.

16 A. And somewhere between 3 and 2 would have

17 been my memory of them finally being able to get him

18 handcuffed.

19 Q. Okay. And there was a pool of blood that

20 you've described. Could you make that area No. 4, or

21 is that within one of the areas you've already

2 designated?

23 A. Yeah, it ended up the man came to spray

24 right around here. No. 4 would be where the pool - -25 the pool of blood in question that I saw wiped up at


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79

the end of the event.

Q. Okay. And you first observed this on the

northeast corner; is that correct?

A. By Bullseye Art Gallery.

Q. Okay. Could you put a No. 5 where that was.

A. Leading to cross the street.

Q. You then at one point moved to point No. 6

which was I believe is that the first and second step

of Blue Hour, or was there something in between there?

A. Oh, no, it would have been dangerous not to

cross correctly. So when I cross I would have been at

No. 6 for just 30 or 40 seconds more, over here on the

corner.

Q. Okay.

A. And then No. 7. Oh, can I number it No. 7?

Q. Absolutely.

A. No. 7 would have been up on either first

step or second. It could well have been first.

Q. And first or second step can actually mean

two things I guess. Is it the first step up from the

pavement, is that what you mean by the first step?

A. The dining level, then first step down,

second step down, and I occupied the second, maybe

once in a while moving to third, but mostly just being

against the wall here at No. 7 on the diagram.


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80

1 Q . Okay. So that would be the first or second

2 step that's the highest up, is that correct, or

3 closest to the ground?

4 A. Two steps down from the dining level.

5 Q. Okay. At some point in time you learned

6 Mr. Chasse had died; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall how you learned about that?

9 A. On the news.

10 Q . Okay. Do you listen to the television news,

11 to the radio news, or do you get the newspaper or the

12 web, forgetting about that last one?

13 A. It was on the news, the television news.

14 Q. And at that point in time or sometime

15 thereafter you made a statement to the Portland Police

16 Bureau about what had occurred; is that right?

17 A. It was my intention to make a complaint

18 irrespective of the news of his death.

19 Q . And you made that complaint; is that

2 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you have- -

have you made more than one

23 complaint or have you made just that one complaint?

2 A. Just that one and then the follow-up

25 interview - -Schmitt & Lehmam, Inc.

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81

1 Q. With Detective Courtney?

2 A. - - with Detective Courtney per the phone

3 call to do so.

Q. Correct.

And then you also testified before the grand

jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You told me about that.

Have you had any other - - have you given any

other statements to any investigator we've not talked

about?

A. No. One came last month to my residence,

although I was out of town.

Q. And have you talked - - you told me about

your lawyer and there's a privilege between clients

and lawyers down in California so we're not going to

get into that.

A. Right.

Q. Have you talked to any other lawyers about

what had occurred?

A. Other than to contact Mr. Steenson's office

back in 2006 around the months of the events and the

memorial service and what have you to ask what do I do

next, how can I be helpful to everybody, how can I be

a good witness?





8

1 Q. All right. And did you talk to Mr. Steenson

2 or someone in his office?

3 A. Very, very briefly two days ago.

4 Q. Just two days ago?

5 A. Yeah. To get these documents.

6 Q. Okay. But how about back then, I mean,

7 shortly after the incident, did you contact

8 Mr. Steenson's office?

9 A. I may have stopped - - I stopped by asking if

10 I could leave a sympathy note for the family.

11 Q. Okay. And did you have a chance to talk to

12 someone in the office about that?

13 A. I think it was just a secretary who said,

14 you know, we'll do our best or whatever, so I - -15 Q. Did you actually create a sympathy note and

16 drop it off or mail it?

17 A. I believe so. I have a busy life.

18 Q. Okay.

1 9 A. I know my intention was to do so, but I - - I

20 hope I did.

21 Q. Okay. Have you - - have you been living in

2 the Portland metro area generally since that time?

23 A. Yes and no. I travel a lot.

2 Q. Is that part of your work?

25 A. It is. To go teach eight to 12 weeks at


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83

universities or go direct plays at regional repertory

theaters. So I was here a lot in 2006 and I've been

here intermittently in 2008, but 2007 barely.

Q. Is your work the kind of work where someone

somewhat unexpectedly calls you up and says would you

- - can you assist us with a project?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Okay. The trial in this matter has been

tentatively set for late April maybe to mid May of

2009. Do you know what your commitments are during

that period of time?

A. They're fluid. And as a free-lancer and

artist in America one is always waiting for the call.

It usually is six months in advance. It can be two

months in advance.

Q. Okay. At this time, do you have anything

scheduled during that time frame?

A. We're talking April - -Q . April '09.

A. April '09.

Q. The later part perhaps to mid May.

A. I'm not contracted. I have two things

pending.

Q. Okay. Once - -A. I'm not contracted.





84

Q. And when you say contracted, is this someone

actually presents you with a written document, if you

decide saying I'm going to show up and do something,

is it something over the phone where you simply agree

orally?

A. Written legal documents in American Regional

Theater.

Q. I've tried to go through this in sort of a

systematic order that would be helpful for me to

understand what you observed and also for you to tell

us, all of us listening here, what transpired. Is

there any portion of this that I've not covered with

you that you think is significant?

A. Not at this seating.

Q. Okay. Thank you for coming in today. Nice

meeting you.

A. Nice to meet you.

MS. BACK: Do you have any questions?

MS. DUNAWAY: Yeah, I just have a few

follow-up questions.

EXAMINATION

BY MS. DUNAWAY:

Q. Again, my name is Susan Dunaway, and I

represent the green uniform - -A. Yeah.


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8

Q. - - and the county.

A. Okay.

Q. Yeah, the green uniform is Bret Burton.

A. Yeah.

Q. One of the statements that you made when

Mr. Rice was asking you questions was that after the

EMTs saw Mr. Chasse and were - - was walking away from

Mr. Chasse, that Mr. Chasse was screaming mightily for

the EMT. What does mightily mean to you?

A. With great emotional need.

Q. And what does that mean? Does it have any

reference to volume?

A. Volume is included.

Q. So he was - - he was screaming very loudly

for her? Is that what you meant when you said

mightily, that he was screaming loud?

A. Not generally loud but you could hear him

quite well. There was a great need in his voice and

it was well articulated and - -Q. And perhaps you said it but I didn't hear

it. Exactly what was he saying at that time to the

EMT?

A. Don't leave me.

Q. I may have missed it. When you were

describing when all four are running down the street


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86

1 and then they all fall, what position was Mr. Chasse

2 in when he fell? Was he on his back, his stomach, or

3 his side?

4 A. Once pushed and tripping predominantly on

5 his front, the front of his body.

6 Q. Then when you said that you heard the Taser

being utilized, did you see what part of the - - of

Mr. Chassels ody the Taser made or if it made contact

with?

A. Through much movement it certainly would

have made contact towards or on his arm and his rib or

waist on the side that I was observing. It would have

been in his mid cavity.

Q. Mid cavity.

And so that would have been on the right

side of his body?

A. No. At that point his head was headed - -

there was much wiggling and his head would have been

in, what do you call - - what's our direction?

Q. In the north direction?

A. Heading towards PSU.

Q. South.

MR. RICE: There's a little circle there.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) South?

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A. In that moment his head was - - was south

when I observed and heard the Tasers and saw some

motion that equaled the sound of the Taser to his

moving body - - Mr. Chassers oving body near or on his

arm or midsection.

Q. Okay. And what else was happening at that

time when the Taser was being used?

A. Vocalization, Mr. Chasse speaking or

pleading or announcing. And the older of the officers

towards or near his - - his body also trying to contain

him. There was a lot of containing attempts going on

all in that moment.

Q. And were any of the officers saying

anything?

A. This was the section where there - - of what

was heard, this section of the incident included get

down on your stomach, get down on your stomach, no, I

don't want to, no, I don't want to.

Q. Okay. So at this point, is Mr. Chasse still

on his back?

A. At this point, Mr. Chasse is wiggling and is

both on his back and front. This is not - - there is

no containment yet of - - to him only in one - - only in

one position. There is much movement during the Taser

section.


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1 Q . Okay. Would this be correct, after

2 Mr. Chasse falls down on his stomach, from - - from

3 that point on for quite a while during the struggle

4 everything is very fluid and Mr. Chasse is very fluid

5 moving back and forth from his front to his back?

6 Would that be a correct statement? From what you've

7 been saying I've been trying to visualize it, and

8 would that be a correct statement?

9 A. There's the takedown, there's a scuttle

10 away, there's much avoidance and slapping and

11 attempting to get him controlled, at this point they

12 have him semi-controlled and the things they are doing

13 are a foot to a foot, hands and - - hands to chest, an

14 attempt - - a long attempt to handcuff and some

15 Tasering.

16 Q. But Mr. Chasse keeps on flipping back and

17 forth from his stomach to his back?

18 A. It may not be as A and B as that, but there

19 is movement, yes.

2 Q. Okay. At the very end of your - - of

21 Mr. Rice's questioning when you were putting the

22 numbers on the diagram you said that you were first on

23 the northeast corner when you see the pursuit?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Q. Okay. And then at some point you cross over





8

to the Blue Hour; is that correct?

A. Yeah. Maybe 30 or 40 seconds later. Once

it's safe to cross.

Q. Okay. So by safe to cross, I assume you

mean there was traffic going down Everett at some

point?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Were any of the people who were going

down Everett slowing down to observe what was going

on?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you - - did you happen to notice how many

or was every car slowing down to watch what was going

on?

A. Right away - - certainly it would not have

been in the view of everybody, position No. 1 and No.

2, especially on my map - - or on Exhibit No. 301 is

out of eyesight of the people coming down Everett.

Certainly the noise and conflagration were catching

attention. I would say initially some cars were

slowing down and perhaps a few were not.

Q. And what initially caught your attention to

the four of them kind of running down the road?

A. Sound and motion out of my right eye, a view

right up to that second tree.

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1 Q. Were you getting ready to cross Everett at

2 that point?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Okay. So you were actually - - you were at

5 that corner and you were looking I assume in both

6 directions?

7 A . Looking both ways.

8 Q. Okay. And that was what caught your eye was

9 that you were being cautious and getting ready to

10 cross?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Okay. After Mr. Chasse is cuffed and the

13 officers who were involved in the struggle are

14 standing around, did you happen to notice where the

15 person with the green uniform was?

16 A. There with everyone. There was a small

17 group around Mr. Chasse and then maybe ten feet away

18 by a now parked police car would have been another

19 group. I can't say what exact group he was in. The

20 two groups are very close to one another.

21 Q. So there were two groups of police officers,

22 two groups of - - two groups of people?

23 A. Yeah, a mix of EMTs and the fire folk,

2 etcetera.

2 Q. And they were - -


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9 1

A. They were all within - - they were all

waiting and standing and discussing off voice the

event I suppose in this area of No. 2 on my map. The

exact placement of the young officer in green in that

moment I couldn't exactly tell you.

Q. Okay. And so where the No. 2 is then there

is a group of people including the fire fighters,

EMTs, and the police standing around Mr. Chasse?

A. It might say that there's - - I don't know if

it's splitting hairs, but it's - - once hers eally

down and just before he goes unconscious there's an

area just a little farther this way, about four feet

this way, which makes me wonder whether I should give

it another number.

Q. Okay, that would be good. Where - - could

you put on there as 8, make another circle where all

of the EMTs, police, and fire are standing around him.

A. Oh. Well, can I draw in a now parked car - -

Q. That would be good.

A. - - at this point?

Q. Okay.

A. So I believe there's now, at a slight angle

this way, one of the arrived police cars. Shall I

make that No. 8 ?

Q. Okay.


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9

1 A. And during this unconscious moment I would

2 call No. 9, which is just a few feet over north of my

3 No. 2 - - uh-oh. I don't want you to think that's a 6 .

4 Here we go, No. 9 would be where he was unconscious

5 and there would be several folks around him. I'm

6 making little Xs around my No. 9. And there would be

7 quite a few folks over here, quite a few officers of

8 the law and medics, near this No. 8 parked car.

9 Q. Okay. And I just want to clarify one point.

10 I believe that you testified that you did not see the

11 officer in green kick Mr. Chasse at any point that you

12 can recall?

13 A. That I can recall.

14 Q . Had you ever seen anybody arrested before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q . When?

17 A. Living in inner city Oakland almost weekly,

18 usually street crime, you know, or some foot pursual

19 and arrest. Great amount of drug activity and

2 prostitution in the area I have lived in.

21 Q. Okay. And had you ever seen officers ever

22 have to struggle in order to effectuate the arrest?

2 MR. STEENSON: Objection to the extent it

24 calls for speculation. Go ahead.

25 MS. DUNAWAY: I'm asking for his perception.


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9

MR. STEENSON: I'm still objecting on the

grounds it calls for speculation.

Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Did you ever see officers

struggle to be able to make an arrest?

MR. STEENSON: The same.

THE WITNESS: The arrests I had formerly

seen?

Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Yes.

A. Minor amounts. Maybe just a bit of scuffle,

a bit of run, but not a takedown, in my experience.

Q. And had you ever seen any - - I assume then

from what you just said that you had never seen a

struggle that went on for as long as this particular

struggle went on?

A. Other than on television, no.

Q. And I think that you indicated that you do

work with choreographers. Is that correct?

A. Yeah. Fight captains and choreographers are

- - in American Regional Theater are utilized for

almost every show.

Q. And so do the choreographers, then they

choreograph - -2 A. Violence.

24 Q. Violence and fights?

2 A. Yeah.





94

1 Q . And have you ever been involved in working

2 with a choreographer who is choreographing a fight

3 similar to the one in - - that Mr. Chasse was involved

4 in?

5 A. Yes. Especially modern plays. Classical

6 plays would be sword play, but modern plays are

7 usually hand-to-hand combat.

8 Q. How did you feel after - - after watching

9 this unfold right before your eyes?

10 A. Pensive.

11 Q. Okay. I don't see - - that doesn't sound

12 like emotion to me. That's - - you were just

13 thoughtf l

14 A. Yeah. Well, your question was right after?

15 Q. M-hm.

16 A. Taking it in and feeling pensive and wonder

17 at what had just been witnessed.

18 Q. Were you angry?

19 A. I wouldn't call it anger, no.

2 Q. Were - - distraught?

21 A. Not distraught, no.

22 Q. Exhausted?

23 A. I was quizzical. I was pensive. I wondered

24 what I had just witnessed.

25 Q. But it sounds like you're saying you didn't





95

1 have any strong emotional reaction to this?

2 A. Oh, attached to that seeing someone - -3 seeing the amount of violence involved was certainly a

4 category of my instant reaction, if we're talking

5 about the instant reaction, of despair at what had

6 happened to the person who had been arrested.

7 Q. What about now?

8 A. Still quizzical.

Q. Okay. But did you feel frightened after it

happened originally?

A. Personally not frightened for myself.

Certainly felt it must have been terribly frightening

for everyone involved.

Q. Did you observe, after Mr. Chasse was in

cuffs, did you observe how the - - the officers who

were involved, what their physical state was like?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What - - can you describe what - - how

they looked after Mr. Chasse was in cuffs?

A. Tall and proud.

Q. Were they - - did you see any sweat on any of

them?

A. Yes. On the - - the older of the chaps.

Q. Did you happen to observe - - the older

meaning the older officer in blue?





97

A. Later.

Q. - - related to something later.

A. That's later.

Q. At that moment, how did they appear

emotionally?

A. Like they had just been through something

large.

Q. Did they look tired, at that point, when the

cuffs go on?

A. The kind of tired after a burst of

adrenaline. Not tired tired like you need a cup of

coffee, but sure, they had just been through a great

exertion of energy - -Q. Okay.

A. - - yeah.

Q. When Mr. Chasse fell after the pursuit, was

his backpack on his back? Were you able to see

whether or not he had his backpack - - you said earlier

that when he fell he fell on his stomach. At that

point when he falls on his stomach, is his backpack on

his back?

A. I'm tracking in my memory. The backpack was

definitely being pulled away from him in the midst of

the first parts of this event. There was even a

moment that he tried to continue to hold on to it.

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98

I - - I cannot say whether that backpack was

successfully pulled away from him as they - - as they

ran down and just before the fall, the first fall, or

whether it was immediately after the fall. It was in

that area in time that it was displaced away from him.

Q. Okay. But - - so you're not sure if the

backpack was still on him when he fell?

A. Recalling two years later, no.

Q. Okay. And then I just want to make sure

that I heard your testimony correctly. You said that

at some point Mr. Chasse, while he was unconscious,

appeared - - it appeared to you that he was not

breathing?

A. Yes.

Q. And then he spontaneously awoke and started

breathing again?

A. His body surprisingly reanimated and the

color came back and - - and he almost immediately

spoke.

Q. And during that period of time when he was

unconscious, were you focusing on his back?

A. Our view was not just his back. It was

above and - - and so one could see his forehead.

Q. But could you see his back during that

period of time?


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99

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. You could?

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Okay. And were you attempting to observe

whether or not you could see movement in his chest?

A. As someone who deals a lot with death and

dying patients, I saw signs of breathing stopping and

discoloration of his skin and the cessation of

movement on his body or clothing.

Q. And no movement in his chest as you would if

somebody was breathing?

A. Of course the chest was slightly out of my

view by virtue that I was not in front of him but

rather above and behind him, but I saw more than his

back. His cavity, his body was no longer moving,

including the up - - the upper part of his body that I

could observe.

Q. And approximately how far away from him were

you at that point?

A. It would be the mathematics of your chart

here, from my position at No. 7 to the position of No.

9.

Q. Okay. And just one last question. Have you

personally ever been involved in any kind of a fight?

A. I grew up with two brothers, so in my youth,


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100

sure, a bit of scrabbling about.

Q. But other than that, which I assume was not

one where you really felt seriously like you had to

defend yourself, I hope, have you ever been involved

in any kind of physical altercation?

A. Not in life. A lot on stage.

Q. I think that's all I have.

EXAMINATION

BY MS. BACK:

Q. I just have a few questions for you. My

name's Jean Back, and I'm one of the attorneys that

represents AMR, and that's the ambulance company - -A. I see.

Q. - - that arrived at the scene.

And I'm going to try not to overlap with the

answers that you've already given the best I can so

I'm going through and marking off my questions that

you've already answered.

A. Okay.

Q . When you speak of the medics, I want to try

and figure out which medics you're talking about at

which point in time. So do you know the difference

between the medics that worked for AMR and the medics

from the fire department?

A. My perception had to do with the different


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101

1 outfits that - - uniforms

Q. Okay. And what uniforms were the medics

that worked with AMR wearing?

A. They seemed to be kind of a dark or perhaps

black jumpsuit, concatenate jumpsuit.

Q. And the fire department folks, what were

they wearing?

A. Certainly at least my perception was that at

least one of them was in the - - what seemed to be

firemen's trousers that have the hanging off

suspenders, a different coloration. So T-shirt and

greenish/yellow trousers perhaps.

Q. Okay. And do you know how many medics you

saw from AMR?

A. I do not, because our - - our focus was so

clearly on the female medic because she was, you know,

female.

Q. Okay. And do you know whether the female

was an AMR medic?

A. Well, yes, because my assumption was the

first car in place which was more ambulance like is

where she and - - and certainly some colleagues came

from. My focus was not on the other colleagues.

Q. Okay. How many people did you see exit from

the first vehicle that came, the ambulance-type





102

vehicle?

A. It is not clear to my memory.

Q. Okay. And, again, did you see, was the

female medic carrying anything from the ambulance when

she exited the ambulance?

A. Well, there was a - - like a doctor's kit or

a tackle box type of thing that was part of the

witnessing of the event. My assumption is she would

have brought it, but of course that's an assumption.

Q. Okay. And was - - when the AMR - - and 1'11

represent to you that the female medic was from AMR.

When the AMR medic arrived, was Mr. Chasse hobbled at

that point in time? Was he - - did he have the

connection between his cuffs on his arms and the cuffs

on his legs?

A. My memory says no, that the completion of

the cuffing was after he came back into consciousness.

Q. Okay.

A. My memory of it.

2 Q . Okay. And what was Mr. Chasse doing when

2 the female medic arrived on scene?

2 A. Losing consciousness.

2 Q , He was losing consciousness at the point

2 that she arrived?

25 A. There were moments - - I think there was a





1 0 3

brief moment of him still semi-functional but on the

ground and contained, and then he went out.

Q. And one of the reasons that you believed

that he lost consciousness was because you saw some

color leave from his hands?

A. Yeah, his hands and his forehead.

Q. And his forehead. And you were able to see

his forehead from your vantage point?

A. Yes.

Q. How - - how much time occurred between when

they cuffed his hands and when you think - - when the

color left from his hands?

A. Many, many chapters between the two. Can

you restate it again for me just so it's fresh in my

brain?

Q. How much time - -A. M-hm.

Q. - - occurred between the time that they

cuffed his hands and the time that you recall his

hands losing color?

A. That would have been - - that would have

included the - - the medic approaching him 1 think

while he still had some consciousness. I'm just

trying to think this through for a second.

Q. Sure, take your time.

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1 0 4

A. For having some - - some connection with him

or the possible blood pressure moment, some thing, and

then he went out, his hands would have turned blue

about two minutes into the four-minute episode, his

hands and his - - and his forehead, so he would have

been effectively cuffed, you know, I'm guessing three

minutes.

Q. Okay. Do you know on the chart that you've

done - -

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. - - what number on that chart was he? I

mean, can you - - that's sort of in a time line, isn't

it, the chart a little bit?

A. A bit, although we've added 8 and 9 that - -Q. Yeah.

A. - - which are not in sync.

Q. At what number was he cuffed?

A. Somewhere between No. 2 and No. 9, ma'am,

which are right next to each other.

Q. Okay.

A. So once he's in the fetal and final

position, being cuffed and losing consciousness would

be just within feet - -

Q. Okay.

A. - - of No. 2 and No. 9.


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105

Q. You - - you said you heard some discussion

between when the female paramedic arrived between the

police officers and the female paramedic. Do you

remember, did you hear what was said?

A. It went off voice. I heard her voice say

either - - well, definitely the words - - the part of

the sentence I heard was he's bleeding from his mouth.

Q. And did you hear her say anything else?

A. No. Her low tones with Mr. Chasse were in a

more private, you know, caring fashion.

Q. How about with the police officers, did you

hear anything other than he appears to be bleeding

from his mouth in that conversation? I know you've

said that already.

A. No. The conversation continued.

Q. And - - and did you hear any more of the

conversation?

A. NO.

Q. Okay. About how long did the conversation

between the police officers and the female paramedic

continue after you heard that first comment?

A. It stretched out during this three- to

four-minute next chapter of quiet and waiting and

things not happening, and so there was quiet as well

as discussion, mostly people standing, including the


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1 0 6

medic, for the majority of that period of time.

Q. Did you hear any conversations - - do you

know who the other AMR medic was?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Did you hear any other conversations between

any of the persons that you would call medics and

police officers at the scene?

A. Only of rising vocal - - vocalization or

slightly louder, but undiscernible conversation from

the young fireman in the trousers with the suspenders.

Q. What was he saying?

A. I do not know.

Q. Were you - - Miss Dunaway may have asked

this. I apologize if I'm asking you a question again.

But were you able to actually - - at the point that he

was conscious, you were able to discern that he

actually stopped breathing because his body stopped

moving; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to actually count his

respirations at any point during that time?

A. Not from the distance I was at. It was

clear he was not moving.

Q. So it was clear that his body was silent.

Were you able to actually see the rise and fall of


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1 0 7

his - - his chest or even his back?

A. No.

Q. At any point, were you able to see a rise

and fall of his chest or his back?

A. Before and after this loss of consciousness.

Q. You believe you were able to see that?

A. Well, I mean, he was breathing through the

whole event except for this period of - - my perception

was he was not breathing during this perception - -period of time.

Q. And the question specifically I want to know

is were you able to actually visualize, see the rise

and fall of his chest when - - at the times that you

feel that he was breathing, were you able to visualize

that his - - that there was a rise and fall?

A. Oh, during breathing times?

Q. Right.

A. Oh, yes, ma'am.

Q. And what do you remember about how - - what

is your memory about those visualizations?

A. Physical exertion and both vocal pleas -pleas, P-L-E-A-S that moved upwards as well as then

the body following as well.

Q. Okay. So you're speaking more in terms of

just his movement and his speaking, and I'm speaking


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108

1 just in terms of someone who is at rest and breathing.

2 A. Oh. Oh, yes, there were times he was on the

3 ground before and after unconsciousness in which it

4 was clear he was - - that the cavity of his body,

5 though I was viewing it mostly from the back with a

6 bit of the ability to see the top of his rib cage and

7 his forehead, that he was - - though tied, he was

8 breathing, yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember how he was breathing?

10 Was he breathing rapidly?

11 A. I don't remember specifics about his

12 breathing other than he was animated and awake at

1 3 those times.

14 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether he was

15 experiencing any problem catching his breath?

16 A. No. That's what was so extraordinary was he

17 was quite vocal and had a lot of power or adrenaline.

18 Q. Were you able to see, at any point in time,

19 whether his eyes were open?

2 A. In the whole event or - -21 Q . Well, specifically let's take it to when

22 the - - when the AMR paramedics arrived.

23 A. Ah.

2 Q . From then on, were you able to determine

25 whether his eyes were open?

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1 0 9

A. Not from my vantage point.

Q. What - - so when the AMR paramedic got to

Mr. Chasse, did you overhear any conversation between

the paramedic and Mr. Chasse at that point in time?

A. As he was ramping down there may have been a

blood pressure moment of some kind, but before he lost

consciousness just a sense that she was there to help

him and that - - and that he, during that period before

losing consciousness, he did quiet down for a moment.

Q. Did - - was there - - could you tell if there

was eye contact between the two of them?

A. There certainly must have been. She knelt

down near him.

Q. Did she appear to be trying to attend to his

needs?

A. Assessing, yes.

Q. Was she behaving in any way that would

appear to you as mocking or teasing or - -A. NO.

Q. And did you hear any of the - - did you hear

any - - did you hear Mr. Chasse say anything to her

during this period of time?

A. Only upon reawakening saying don't leave me,

don't leave me when she moved away to go get

something.


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Randall Stuart, 7/14/2008 Chasse v. Humphreys, et al

11

1 Q. Did you hear him ask or say anything about

2 his backpack?

3 A. No.

Q. And how - - how sure are you about the

statement that Mr. Chasse said don't leave me, don't

leave me?

A. Very sure. It may have been don't go.

Q. Could it have been don't move my backpack?

A. NO.

Q. Do you remember what her reaction to those

words were when he said don't leave me, don't leave

me

A. She was already in motion. There was a

moment of a gesture of don't worry, I'm going coming

right back.

Q. And she was in motion to go do?

A. Get something out of the case or get - - just

do whatever she would do next.

Q. Was Mr. Chasse moaning or behaving like he

was in pain when the paramedics were with him?

A. There could have been some moans in there

with the verbalization.

Q. Did you - - I'm - - and let me - - because I

don't think this has been explained very well to you

that guessing isn't really something that I'm





111interested in.

A. M-hm.

Q. What I'm interested in is knowing what

you're going to say now - -

A. M-hm.

Q. - - because if you say something different in

court - -

A. Right.

Q. - - you know, that's important to me:

A. Right.

Q. So aside from what could have happened - -A. M-hm.

Q. - - or what might have happened, what I want

to know is did you hear any moaning or groaning from

Mr. Chasse when the paramedics were treating him?

MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative. Go

ahead.

THE WITNESS: I did not hear low tones

including moaning. I heard high tones.

Q. (By Ms. Back) High-pitched like screams?

A. Yeah. I heard words that were delivered at

a high amp and a high pitch.

Q. What words did you hear?

A. Throughout the event no, no, no, not on my

stomach, mercy, etcetera, etcetera.


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Randall Stuart, 7 /14 /2008 Chasse v . Humphreys, et al.

1 12

Q. And during the time that the AMR paramedics

were there, what words did you hear?

A. No words from him, except when he reawakened

and asked her please don't go.

Q. Okay. Do you remember, did he - - did he

struggle when the paramedics were with him?

A. He was - - he was bound. I mean, he was

incapacitated and - -

Q. Did you observe or hear any conversation

between the paramedics and the police to try and

unbind him?

A. No.

Q. And when the paramedics were there, what

specific movements do you remember seeing from

Mr. Chasse?

A. He was quite contained at that point. He

only began to wiggle again and move his body after he

reawoke.

Q. Now, I want you to try and set aside what

you observed with the struggle that occurred to

restrain Mr. Chasse and if you were arriving on scene

as a paramedic. With that in mind, did you observe or

- - did you observe Mr. Chasse do or say anything that

would make someone who hadn't witnessed the struggle

think that there were any serious injuries to


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1 1 3

Mr. Chasse?

MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative,

vague.

THE WITNESS: I don't know how to be a

medic.

Q. (By Ms. Back) Yeah. The question is if - -for someone who's arriving at the scene and not having

witnessed the struggle, what, in your - - what

observations would they - - would - - from that point on

and from, you know, from you observing it, what

observations would there be of serious injury to

Mr. Chasse?

MR. STEENSON: Same objections. Go ahead.

Q. (By Ms. Back) Answer it if you can. If you

can't, that's - -A. I mean, my experience is my experience, not

a different experience.

Q. Okay. And so along those lines, did you

hear him complain of pain when the paramedics were

there?

A. No, I did not hear words about pain.

Q. Did you observe him to favor any - - any of

the - - any part of his body?

A. No. He was quite down for the count in a

fetal position.


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114

1 Q. And even in the time when he reawoke and

2 started wiggling after they were trying to do that one

3 test on him, did you observe him trying to favor any

4 part of his body?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you remember seeing the paramedics take

7 his pulse?

8 A. Right at the get-go I think she - - she was

9 definitely attending to the arm in some fashion before

10 he went unconscious.

11 Q. Do you remember seeing the paramedics take

12 his blood pressure?

13 A. My memory's unclear about that. I - - I feel

14 that the way one sees someone unwrap a cuff, you know,

15 a cuff, and that's in one's mind.

16 Q. Did you observe the female paramedic hand

17 the police officer a piece of paper at any point in

18 time towards the end of the scene?

19 A. Not in my memory.

2 Q. So you heard no conversation or saw nothing

21 about that?

A. I saw a kind of closing conversation.

Q. And did you hear any words that - -

A. NO.

Q. Okay.





115

A. I do apologize. May I run to the men's room

again?

Q. Sure.

Take a break.

(Recess: 1:31 to 1:34 PM.)

Q. (By Ms. Back) Thanks so much for being

patient with us.

I know you made - - you made a complaint or

felt that you wanted to make a complaint about the

incident that you saw. Did you make any sort of

similar complaint with respect to the medical care

that was provided?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Do you have any reason to feel that you - -

Mr. Chasse wasn't provided with medical care at the

scene?

A. Well, would you reask the question for me?

Q. Do you have any reason to believe that

Mr. Chasse wasn't provided with medical care at the

scene?

A. Yes, I have reason to believe that.

Q. Okay. Can you tell me what those reasons

are?

A. Sensing that a - - he was taken away strongly

beaten and bleeding, not with the people in the


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1 1 6

MS. DUNAWAY: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: That's it?

MR. RICE: That's it.

(The deposition concluded at 1:35 PM.)

1 ambulance.

2 Q. Okay. I have no more questions.

3 MR. STEENSON: No questions.

4 MR. RICE: Okay. Thank you for coming down

5 here.

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1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2 STATE OF WASHINGTON )

) ss.3 COUNTY OF CLARK )

4 I, Shannon K. Krska, a Certified Shorthand

5 Reporter for Oregon, do hereby certify that, pursuant

6 to stipulation of counsel for the respective parties

7 hereinbefore set forth, RANDALL STUART personally

8 appeared before me at the time and place set forth in

9 the caption hereof; that at said time and place I

10 reported in Stenotype all testimony adduced and other

11 oral proceedings had in the foregoing matter; that

12 thereafter my notes were reduced to typewriting under

13 my direction; and that the foregoing transcript, pages

14 3 to 116, both inclusive, constitutes a full, true and

15 accurate record of all such testimony adduced and oral

16 proceedings had, and of the whole thereof

17 Witness my, and and CSR stamp at Vancouver,

stuart transcript

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