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TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

FILE NUMBER:Interviewee: Dr Kirstin Ferguson (KF)Presenters: Vicki McDonald (VM)

Ray Weekes (RW)

GAME CHANGERS

Interview conducted at the State Library of Queenslandon 18 June 2019.

STATE LIBRARY OF QUEENSLAND

State Library of Queensland Interview Transcript: Dr Kirstin FergusonFile Number: Date of Interview: 18 June 2019

1. VM Gumbah garu gumbah nunee geeah nindoo which is good day, it’s good to

see you in Barunggam, which is the traditional language of the community

that I grew up on the Darling Downs in Queensland, and 2019 is the

International Year of Indigenous Languages, and here at State Library each

staff member is adopting some words from the community that they grew up

or they have an association with. So good evening, ladies and gentlemen,

my name’s Vicki McDonald and it’s my great privilege to be the State

Librarian and CEO here at the State Library of Queensland, and on behalf of

my colleagues, I welcome you to the second Game Changers event for

2019. I also extend a welcome to those who are watching via the live stream

tonight. Let me also begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the

land on which we meet and pay respects to their ancestors who came before

them. The location of State Library on Kurilpa Point is a traditional meeting,

gathering and sharing place for Aboriginal people and we proudly continue

that tradition here today, tonight and every day of the year. I’d also like to

acknowledge and welcome our speaker for tonight, Dr Kirstin Ferguson,

Deputy Chair of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, our facilitator, Ray

Weekes, Chairman of the CEO Institute, Helen Brodie, President of the

Queensland Library Foundation, Robina Xavier, Executive Dean, QUT

Business School, members of the Library Board of Queensland, the

Queensland Library Foundation Council, QUT Business School, and the

Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame Governing Committee. I also

extend a very warm welcome to our generous donors and partners, Picture

Partners, Channel 7, Morgans, NAB and RACQ. And of course, to our

friends and supporters of the State Library of Queensland, welcome. And

thank you for joining us for the second Game Changers conversation event

for 2019. So Kirstin, I think you have pulled the biggest crowd for the last

couple of years so well done. It’s fantastic to see our auditorium full and also

to know that people are watching us on the live stream tonight as well. So

this event brings together innovative leaders from business, technology and

creative industries to share their experiences and to encourage us to think

bigger and better. The Game Changers series is an initiative of the

Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame. It was established in 2009 by

the State Library, Queensland Library Foundation and the QUT Business

School. The Hall of Fame celebrates, records and retells stories of

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Queensland’s outstanding business leaders and their many contributions to

the development of our state. Perhaps some of you here tonight are

interested in developing your own leadership ambitions or to learn more

about new approaches to business. Many of you come along to network and

to build new connections. Or maybe you’re here because you want to

change the world. At State Library, we want to inspire possibilities through

knowledge, stories and creativity. I always feel encouraged after hearing

stories and personal reflections from those dedicated Queensland leaders.

I’m always inspired and motivated by women who have forged impressive

careers in a society that in a lot of cases has presented an additional set of

challenges for females. So I’m particularly looking forward t hearing more

from Kirstin, particularly around her celebrating women’s social campaign.

Over the years, we’ve hosted 24 Game Changers conversations with

leaders, who’ve shared the highs, the lows and learnings from their time in

business. You can watch recordings of those conversations on State

Library’s newly designed website, plus also access a range of business

resources for free. Your free State Library membership, you can complete

business courses and tutorials or develop skills through the online learning

platform, lynda.com. While you’re here tonight at State Library, you might

also like to check out our latest showcase in kuril dhagun on level 1, called I

Heard It On The Radio, 25 years of 98.9FM Country, and we’re open until

8pm tonight so you will have some time to check it out come back on the

weekend. The showcase in kuril dhagun tracks the story of the first

indigenous radio station in an Australian capital city, and it was started by a

passionate and pioneering group of community members who fought for

change. The story is certainly another example of game changing leadership

in Queensland. If you’re watching tonight via the live stream, you can tweet

your questions using the hashtag qblhof and please add your location so we

know where you’re actually watching us from. Audience members are also

free to tweet their questions, or you can hold onto them for the Q&A session

at the end of the conversation. But for now, could you please welcome Ray

Weekes to the stage and Ray will introduce Kirstin and begin tonight’s

conversation. Thank you.

2. RW Thanks, Vicki. Good evening, and I tell you what it’s just great to look out

and see this place just filled to the brim, so Kirstin, you’ve done a spectacular

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job attracting these numbers. Dr Kirstin Ferguson has this remarkable

personal story of leadership, achievement and changing the game. Kirstin’s

Deputy Chair of the ABC, as you’ve heard from Vicki, and is on a number of

listed and unlisted boards. She was the first female director of the

Queensland Rugby Union and is an adjunct professor in the QUT Business

School She began her career, and we’ll explore some of this in the Q&A, by

studying at the Australian Defence Force Academy in Canberra while training

to be an Officer in the Royal Australian Air Force, and she was Dux of the Air

Force graduating class. I should say it was where Kirstin met her husband,

Glen, who’s right here tonight, an F-111 pilot, this is straight out of Top Gun, I

got to tell you, straight out. And it’s wonderful that Glen is here tonight, and

also daughter Zoe, so we welcome you both. Kirstin created, as you’ve

heard, an online campaign, #celebrating women, with these uplifting stories

from women, that deeply touched so many people. Out of this, her book

‘Womenkind’ came about, a book that unlocks the power of women. It’s

about women finding their voice and celebrating other women’s stories. It

has enabled women to put their experiences front and centre. It’s about

women helping each other to thrive, and describes how women are making

their efforts and their lives more visible. So ‘Womenkind’ examines how

women’s shared clout is transforming communities, workplaces and

leadership. It celebrates the power of women supporting women. Look I just

want to, before we get onto it, I just want to share a story with you, which I

shared, I was talking to Kirstin yesterday about, let me share a story with you

about my mother. My mother was my great inspiration and gave me the

understanding of the power of education. My mother was a senior executive

in a major listed public company when women were not expected to be

senior executives. And she used to say you had to be twice as good as the

average man to succeed, and she’d say thank Christ that’s not difficult. So

Kirstin went on to be, become CEO of a successful global consulting

business and has been named one of Australia’s 100 Women of Influence,

and is a Sir Winston Churchill Fellow and was recognised by Women in

Leadership in Australia with an award for excellence in women’s leadership.

It’s a fascinating leadership journey to date, and as a game changer, Kirstin

has approached business leadership in a way that does challenge the norms

and does celebrate diversity. So please welcome, Kirstin Ferguson.

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3. KF Thank you. Given my daughter’s here, it’s the G-rated version of Top Gun

by the way.

4. RW Is that right. Kirstin, let’s just start off, what do you know about yourself now

that you didn’t know about yourself in those very early days?

5. KF Well there’s a very long list but I’m still learning I guess about myself, but one

of the things I have learnt is that I’m a true optimist by nature, I’m just

naturally optimistic. But I think I’ve learnt over time that you have to balance

that with reality and that’s come at some hard lessons along the way

because I’m naturally very trusting and you assume everyone’s got the same

sort of optimism. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the story of James

Stockdale, who was in, a prisoner of war during the Vietnam war, and the

Stockdale paradox, and he talked about how in the prisoner of war camp, the

people who generally died were the optimists, and you hear that and think

well how can that be the case and of course they were the people who were

saying I’m going to be out by Christmas, I just know it, and of course they’re

still there, Christmas comes and the next Christmas, and they end up losing

all hope. And what he talks about is having that sense of optimism and a

sureness of your success, but balancing that with the brutal facts, the reality

of your situation and weighing that up, and I think that’s something that I’ve

really come to learn about myself, not always brilliantly, that’s for sure, and

sometimes I’ll forget but it’s something that I’m working hard on.

6. RW An optimism in the face of reality, really understanding the reality you’re

dealing with?

7. KF Yeah so, ‘cause you don’t want to lose that optimism.

8. RW No, true.

9. KF I mean I think it’s something that’s a real positive, but you do have to balance

it because you have really tough times, I’ve had plenty of really challenging

issues to have to deal with and it’s balancing that sense of brutal facts, it is

actually a pretty tough time you’re going through, but having a sureness that

you’re going to get through it on the other side.

10. RW Good, and not slipping into self-denial.

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11. KF Trying. Yeah.

12. RW Which is, and it’s interesting you say that about your, the view of optimism

because if you come in with Colin Powell, the head of the US Army, his book,

‘A Soldier’s Story’, one of his leadership lessons is optimism is a force

multiplier…

13. KF Absolutely.

14. RW …which is what you firmly believe in. You joined the military at a very young

age, 17 years old, to become an RAAF Officer and you started your career

as a Cadet at the Australian Defence Force Academy. Now how did the

experiences in the RAAF as a young woman shape who you are today?

15. KF Look, I think it was the foundation for everything really, it taught me a lot

about leadership, it taught me a lot about resilience, about going through

really, really difficult times. I was at the Academy in the early 90s which is

now the period of investigations and government reports and inquiries and it

was a pretty shocking time for women, there were very few women there. I

was really fortunate that I had a positive, a relatively positive experience and

really enjoyed my time there, but for a lot of that it was because I sought to

just fit in and try and hope no one actually noticed I was a women at all. And

because I did well, yeah, and I did, I did well and that really reinforced for me

that that’s how you get on, so if you’re in a male-dominated environment, you

just fit in as best you can to the culture that you’re working in. And I think

that stayed with me for a long time and I know we’ll talk about celebrating

women, but for 20 years I would run from any women’s event for fear of

being seen as one of those difficult women who god forbid might you know

ask to be paid the same as men. I loved your mother’s anecdote but I’d say

twice as good to be paid half as much, I’d add that little bit.

16. RW That’s right.

17. KF But, so I think being there, that was one of the things that I’ve carried with

me, but in terms of leadership, the military is often seen as perhaps teaching

autocratic leadership or it’s just what you see in movies of yelling and

screaming, and in fact it’s not that at all and it teaches you about needing to

earn the respect of your men and women and that they will not follow you up

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and over into battle and put their lives at risk unless they trust you and that’s

something that becomes just an innate part of how you lead and you need a

lot of emotional intelligence to be a good military leader, as well as all the

other intellectual things that we need to be leaders, you need those soft skills

as well.

18. RW You’d support the Peter Cosgrove view of leadership which is, he said that

the military forces, the individuals had very simple test of good leadership in

the military which was do they know me, do they care, am I important to

them. Do you support…

19. KF Oh of course and you could apply that to everyone…

20. RW Yeah, of course.

21. KF …and I think you know every leader should be asking themselves that

question and they might be a bit scared at the answers.

22. RW Exactly, exactly. Was there someone in the early part of your career that

saw something in you that you didn’t see in yourself, gave you a confidence

about what you could deliver?

23. KF Yeah and it’s still today, I think any time I’m offered an opportunity, I think oh

gosh someone’s seen something that you know I might not have seen in

myself, and that’s part of this imposter syndrome, that we all have and I

certainly have on a daily basis. I’m better now at sort of hearing that voice

and ignoring it, but early in my career I had mentors and supervisors and

bosses who you know would say encouraging things or make me feel that I

could actually achieve what I wanted to achieve, and that was so powerful,

and it’s a reminder now that we need to be doing that a lot more and making

sure that we’re always paying that forward and giving people the

encouragement they need. Because if you don’t trust yourself, which most of

us don’t, a lot of us question you know whether or not we’re capable of doing

whatever the next opportunity is, I think it’s much easier to trust that

someone else has seen something in you and to follow them.

24. RW So tell us a bit more about how you struggled with that imposter syndrome

and how you’ve, how you handled that, how you dealt with it?

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25. KF Yeah, well I’m still, you know I think all of us, it’s not, it’s easy to look from

the outside at someone’s career or achievements or the number of degrees

they’ve got or whatever their little bio might say, and think oh they’ve

obviously got it all together, but I can assure you every single one of us in

this room would have some level of imposter syndrome, and all that is, is

meaning that you question whether or not you’re good enough or whether or

not you know enough. I think women particularly, men and women struggle

with it, but women in particular, we’ll feel we need to have every qualification

before we taken on a new role or a new opportunity. And it’s hearing that

voice, my peak imposter syndrome moment, which is totally ridiculous, but it

highlights you know how ingrained it is, I had done a PhD and when you do

that you become you know the expert in a very, very, very minor little piece

of knowledge in the world, and there really was no one else who knew more

about my topic than me and I was asked to speak at a conference on it, and

my very first thought was oh there must, I’m sure there’s someone else who’ll

know more about it. Now that’s just absolutely ridiculous and I can ignore

that now, but it’s how it plays into your mind I think about having that self-

confidence always, and the more you do it and the more you don’t fail, the

more you look back and think oh you know what could possibly go wrong.

26. RW Mm. Now as we all know, you were appointed Acting Chair of the ABC

Board, very suddenly, very publicly, and in tumultuous circumstances, and I

understand you can’t talk tonight about any of the specifics of what was

involved, and tonight you’re not talking in any official capacity on behalf of

the ABC, but many leaders wonder how they might deal with being put in that

position, and you never really know how you might handle it until it actually

happens. So, Kirstin, tell us what did you learn about yourself as a leader

through that period and what lessons are there for anyone else who may find

themselves having to lead through a crisis like that?

27. KF Mmm. You definitely cannot prepare yourself you know for that kind of

circumstance and I think I’ve, you know I’ve had time now to reflect on what it

was all, what it meant for me I guess in terms of my own leadership, because

when you’re in it, you know obviously I didn’t have time to think through any

of that, what I did learn is I’m exceedingly calm in a crisis. If you need

someone in a crisis, I’m pretty calm. I think it became just I was so focused

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on you know that’s what was needed was, publicly and working through

issues to be calm. And it doesn’t mean I was privately so privately you know

there’s a huge amount of pressure that you’re dealing with, but publicly and

while I was working, I was very calm. I think I discovered that when you’re

under that much pressure, and others might have experienced this, your

world becomes quite small, it feels quite small. It’s hard to describe but you

don’t, there’s not enough time to actually think through how you might have

strategised a particular crisis or you know a new thing might come along

quite quickly or you need to respond to something almost instantly, and so

everything feels very pressurised obviously but it feels quite small and the

number of people wanting to give you advice is endless and you actually

need to really narrow that down and trust a smaller number and seek that

advice from others when you need to, but it’s impossible to obviously digest

all of the advice good meaning people will pass on. I think the other thing

was really bite-sized chunks. When you’ve got a lot of issues to deal with,

and this definitely came from my military training, I remember when I was in

my third year ADFA we used to have to do a thing called cryptic challenge

where you, it was like a leadership exercise out in the bush and you weren’t

given much food and you had to carry a pack around and climb up

mountains and all of that sort of thing, and they would test you out and you

would be assessed on your leadership. Anyway, I was given sort of the back

end of the period where everyone was tired and hungry and we had this big

mountain to climb up, and I remember when I was leading that particular

section, you know this mountain was enormous and you, if you sit at the

bottom, it was a bit like what I was going through, if you think about

everything you’ve got to work through, it’s overwhelming. But we did just

bite-sized chunks and every 50 metres, 100 metres, we’d identify a tree and

get to it and then that was, we’d all feel like we’d succeeded. I think

obviously very different analogy but breaking various issues down into bite-

sized chunks makes everything much more achievable, even when it seems

insurmountable.

28. RW Overwhelming, mmm.

29. KF And that was something that was incredibly helpful, so for people who are in

a process, I think it’s trying to cut out the noise and really narrow down to

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what you need to deal with in that moment right then and park the other

things, which could be on their own massive, but they’re not the priority then

and there. And then the last thing is ultimately you’re the leader and you’ll

get conflicting advice from all sorts of quarters, in the end you really need to

trust your own view on what needs to happen and act on that.

30. RW Mmm. And how important it is to maintain that composure under pressure,

as you say.

31. KF Yeah well I’d never been on television before and my first experience was a

20 minute live interview so that certainly tested and I was very calm, but you

know the old adage you walk in and they tell you your mind will go blank, well

that happened as I walked to the desk, but luckily you know you, I think if

you’re trained as a leader you know, you’re there when you need to be there.

32. RW Know how to handle that.

33. KF Yeah.

34. RW Vicki created this remarkable online campaign, #celebratingwomen with

uplifting stories from women. Now tell us how your views about women’s

lives have changed as a result of your book ‘Womenkind’ and what impact

the book has had and how can women better support each other?

35. KF That’s a big question.

36. RW Huge.

37. KF Well let me go back. So the campaign came about and became much bigger

than I ever planned, ever intended, and I was on holidays, thinking I’ll just do

this little thing, and it became a year-long sort of, I nearly said ordeal, it was

a wonderful challenge but it was a huge amount that I took on without

realising, and it was the most rewarding year I’ve ever had. But basically it

came about because if you’re on social media, and I love social media, if

people here are on social, please find me, I love connecting with it, I think all

leaders should be active on social media, but you can’t help but notice the

denigration that women face for being online, and on this particular day while

I was on holidays I noticed a thread of tweets abusing one of the ABC’s

female broadcasters and I remember thinking had I been standing next to

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her, you know I would have said something, I would have called the police in

some occasions, but I certainly would have done something, and I could

have chosen to be a bystander or try and do something. And I wanted to,

again being the optimist, try and make my news feed a bit more positive.

And so I came up with this idea of wanting to celebrate women, and the very

first person I celebrated was my mother and I asked her four questions,

posted some photos, that was it. But it sort of took off and in the end I made

a very bold public commitment to see if I could celebrate two women every

single day of 2017 it was, and in the end celebrated 757 women from 37

countries, which is what I mean it got a bit bigger than I thought. Thank you.

38. RW That’s great, that’s great.

39. KF So that’s sort of the scale of what I was dealing with. What I learnt was firstly

every women will tell you they haven’t done anything worth celebrating, and I

got so over hearing that I didn’t even let them finish the sentence, and I’m

like yeah, yeah, yeah, fill in the form and just let me celebrate you. But it

also taught me about diversity and inclusion. So there was no qualifying

criteria, it was any women, and in fact I celebrated transgender women, you

just had to identify as a woman, any educational background, any role, there

was nothing because I…

40. RW So no criteria?

41. KF There was no criteria because I truly believe that every single woman is a

role model and many don’t realise it but every woman is. There was a

cleaner I celebrated who lived in Cairns I think, she had a little small

business and she was cleaning motels. But she was a role model to other

women who may want to change their circumstances and have a small

business. So what I learnt was we need to, all of us who want diverse

workplaces, I think the strategy has to be inclusion. So because it was such

an inclusive campaign and there was no barriers to entry, every woman felt

able to be involved and from that, diversity followed, and so that was the real

richness of it and I think for us as leaders as well.

42. RW Mmm. But you cut it at the end of December, 31...

43. KF I could not keep doing it because…

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44. RW You couldn’t do it, yeah.

45. KF And it was important to hand on I think to other…

46. RW Mmm, course.

47. KF …and there’s now all these spinoff campaigns, there’s a Celebrating Women

in Japan and there’s Celebrating Women in various industries and, I mean

it’s wonderful, that’s exactly what we should do because I don’t know if

you’ve heard the saying that says you know if you should be so lucky to

achieve your own goals, you should throw down the ladder for people behind

you.

48. RW Mmm, mmm.

49. KF Well I really believe we need to forget the bloody ladder, the ladder is a

hopeless analogy, because if you think about it, firstly you’re holding on for

dear life, only one person at a time, and no one can get past, so what

Celebrating Women taught me is we can throw down a fishing net and bring

up many, many women together and we can all hold the sides and do that.

50. RW Now you asked four questions of each woman in your book, these are great

questions, but I’m going to ask you two of those questions. Describe your

life, this is one of the four questions, describe your life using only three

words, and who did you have to inspire.

51. KF And why is the end of that question.

52. RW And why, and why.

53. KF I know those four questions pretty well, and they were made up on the

beach, having drunk a beer on my way back, on holidays. Three words

would be loved, I’m very, I’ve had a loved life, I am loved and love others.

Eventful, there’s never a dull moment. And rewarding, it just, it’s been a

really rewarding life and I hope it continues to be. Who I hope to inspire,

certainly other women, men and, leaders generally, but women in particular,

but you know I’ve got two teenage daughters, one who’s here tonight who’s

17, the other who’s 19, who’s I think watching on the live stream and had a

big calculus exam today, so if you’re watching, Emily, I hope that went well.

But obviously you know I want to inspire them to feel that they can do

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whatever they can do, want to do.

54. RW And this is also about using your privilege…

55. KF Yeah.

56. RW …to serve other people, isn’t it, and that’s a word that’s very important to

you, isn’t it?

57. KF It is, I think servant leadership or humble leadership is incredibly important

and everything we’re talking about is because I’m coming from a position of

privilege. We are all privileged to be sitting here, educated, fed, able to go

home hopefully to a safe environment, and that’s something I’m really

conscious, all through my career I’ve been very fortunate to have lots of

education and the ability to swap and change careers, which has been

wonderful, but so many women are not in that position and I think we all

need to remember that and to be making, giving back and making those

opportunities for others who can’t be so fortunate.

58. RW Now in terms of giving back, you’ve got to tell us about your grandmother,

Mili, and how much of her spirit, your grandmother, Mili, how much of her

spirit do you have?

59. KF Yeah, a fair bit. She also gave me the curly, frizzy hair, so that’s from Mili.

60. RW So tell us about Mili?

61. KF So Mili was my grandmother and she married a Ma-, he was an army officer

and a Major Gen-, he became a Major General in the army and he liked to

have his lunch you know at 12 o’clock and they would have sherries and

nibbles or whatever at 5 and anyway it was very regimented. And she only

got her licence quite late in life, it might have been 60 or 70. Anyway, when

he passed away she had this little Honda Civic I think it was at the time, a

Honda Jazz or a Honda Civic, not a big car. And it was bright yellow and she

lived on the Mornington Peninsula, and she decided that she was going to go

driving but she wanted to do what she called the long circuit, which was right

around Australia, just what 17,000 kilometres or something. I know, just

wait. So she did a lap around Australia and everyone was sort of very

humouring her and yes, that’s great, Mili, and Mili stands for mother-in-law by

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the way, which one of the son-in-laws named her. And she got back and

wanted to see it from the other direction, so, no, no, still just wait. So she did

it in the other direction and we’re thinking okay, this is now quite curious, but

she was loving it and she end-, she would eat baked beans out of cans in

dodgy motels all around Australia, and she had a flagon of sherry in her boot,

and she would assure me that never until 5 o’clock would she have a, and

only one glass of sherry. Anyway, this continued, so she did two trips. She

gets back and there’s other little grannies wanting to go with her and she’s

saying no, I don’t travel with anyone, I go on my own, and she loved the

solitude. She did it 17 times.

62. RW What?

63. KF 17 times. Channel 7 Sunrise named a Winnebago after her, and I, I’m in the

hairdresser one day and opened you know New Idea and there’s my

grandmother next to this Winnebago called Milli, the weather van.

64. RW Now what about the truck drivers, what did they name her?

65. KF So the truck drivers used to get to know her, she was obviously there

frequently, and her, she got a CB and her callsign was the Galloping Granny

and when she went to all these pubs, which were pretty, you know these are

rough pubs, she loved it, and they all looked after her, except she told me

some guy propositioned her, which I was a little concerned with, because at

this point she’s sort of 85, 90, but they would put bumper stickers on the

back of her car and one said I got pissed at the, wherever pub, and that was

her proudest thing. So she was absolutely remarkable. So she lived to 93,

she wrote a book about it called ‘Baked Beans in the Desert and Curry in

Kashmir’, and yeah, she was amazing. And so if I’ve even got some of her

spirit, but the way, her death was also lovely and I know it’s, you know you

don’t often say that but she, I got to say, you know, we sort of knew she was

getting on and she moved herself, by the way, at 90 to Clare, without sort of

telling the family, just got a removal and off she went and lived in this

beautiful part of Clare which was, you know, cause she wanted to do that, it

was wonderful. But I went and visited her and she died maybe a few months

later but she took herself off to the local hospital and said I think I need to lay

down and that was it and it was…

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66. RW That was it?

67. KF Yeah, it was a beautiful life so.

68. RW At what age?

69. KF 93.

70. RW 93.

71. KF Yeah, so I think I do have a lot of her spirit and yeah she’s phenomenal.

72. RW Let’s talk about great places to work for a moment. You talk about diversity,

authenticity, mutual respect. These seem to be characteristics that you

believe in for a great place to work, is that the case?

73. KF Yeah, I think if you can’t respect other people and you can’t feel you’re

yourself and you can’t work in a place where you’re, you know, really

including different views, then you know what’s it all about. I’m a real

believer that as a leader, I think it’s easy, and I say that in inverted commas

cause I know it’s not, but to have the intellect to be a leader. You can learn

it. And you know there’s things I’ve learnt about being, technical a leader,

working in an industry or understanding how to read P&Ls and balance

sheets and all of that sort of thing, but far more challenging, but the most

important is having the emotional intelligence as a leader. And I think if you

can combine those two, you’ll always be streets ahead of the leader who’s

just got the smarts but has no idea how to actually talk to people or treat

people with respect. And so that’s why I think those values are just so

important for any leader.

74. RW Vulnerability, there’s an element of that.

75. KF Definitely.

76. RW It’s a key part of leadership, isn’t it, to demonstrate vulnerability at the right

time?

77. KF Yeah, and saying I actually don’t know the answer to this, you know, there’s

been challenges I’ve had to deal with and having a team and you say, you

know, I don’t really know how we’re going to overcome this challenge but I

know together we will because you guys have all got the skills or we’re each

- 14 -


going to have a part that we can contribute. And as the leader you’re just the

conductor, bringing all of that together and helping others be their best, you

don’t need to be the one solving everything.

78. RW Let’s just keep going with a bit more of the leadership attributes that truly

matter to you, but in doing that, tell us about the leadership skills you gained

by being a burials officer in the Air Force?

79. KF Yeah.

80. RW And to describe that role and the…

81. KF I’ve had some curious careers.

82. RW …describe the role and what are some of the leadership skills…

83. KF Okay, so when you’re in the military, you often get secondary duties, and it’s,

so my main role when I graduated from ADFA and I was posted to Amberley,

and that’s where the Top Gun cliché comes out, second day I met my

husband, who’s wearing the flying suit, looks very handsome, I was single

and 21 and posted to an F-111 squadron so it doesn’t get much better. But

on that first day, I turn up for my, what I think is my main job, which is as an

administration officer and I was told oh you know there’s a bunch of

secondary duties and this is the one you’re getting, you’re the burials officer,

and I’d never been to a funeral at this point, I was 21, and not only that,

someone’s died and the chaplain’s coming to get you and you need to go

and sit in their living, the parent’s living room. So on my very first day, I was

in the living room of this family whose son had died, just thinking where the

hell am I, what on earth is going on. And I ended up running about 15

funerals over my period and it was such a rewarding thing that I did because

you know you learn about empathy, you learn about how you can help

people in their, you know worst moments of grief. There was some pretty

curious things that happened as well, a family whose son had very tragically

suicided, but he’d done so under a train and so, yes it became a very difficult

matter to, when they wanted to have a viewing and how you explain that that

might not be, you know you’ve really got to be able to communicate with

empathy and understand and help that family through things. And the

chaplains, I’m not a religious person at all but each, there was three, from

- 15 -


each of the main Christian religions that would come along and you know

observing them and how they spoke to people who often weren’t religious

themselves, through those times I think just gives you that empathy that

carries on. And so it was, yeah, quite an interesting way to start my RAAF

career.

84. RW Mmm Now look there’s a number of people here I know that are looking for,

to move onto board roles and so on, but first question is why did you choose

a professional company director career and not other full time executive

roles?

85. KF Yeah, it’s interesting cause I’m, I was really very young to be offered my first

board role at 35 and I’m now 46, so I’ve been doing it for a long time, but

when I was on my first board I was also a CEO and so I was doing both roles

for a while, and then got asked to join a second board and that’s when I

decided to see if I might pursue it full time. And so it’s one of those things, I

say yes to opportunities, I’m really you know you never know where life will

lead you, and I still wonder now you know what would I have done had I not

done it, but I’ve got no regrets because what I hadn’t realised is how much I

like the diversity of being on different boards and doing different things and in

any one week you know I could be doing something I had no idea was going

to happen the week before. And while I loved working in single

organisations, you’re very much within that industry or that context or that

business so. Who knows what will happen in the future but I’m certainly

loving doing what I’m doing now and…

86. RW Cause a portfolio career does give you that flexibility, doesn’t it, it goes you

the choice, you can pick and choose the people you want to work with…

87. KF Yeah.

88. RW …and it’s…

89. KF Again, if you’ve got the privilege to have that, those opportunities…

90. RW Exactly, yeah.

91. KF …but yes you do. And that’s what I love because I have got four full time, or

four corporate board roles, but between that I can do other things that I love

- 16 -


putting my hand in and writing books or doing social media campaigns or

whatever it might be. But I certainly love the board work and you know treat

corporate governance is sort of a passion and something you’ve got to be

really focused on and…

92. RW That’s true.

93. KF …yeah, want to see done very well.

94. RW So from your experiences, what are the best ways to get onto boards?

95. KF Yeah, that’s a million dollar question I’ve often asked. Look, there’s no

magic to it, there’s a lot of pounding the pavement and actually networking

and getting to know other directors and joining organisations like the

Australian Institute of Company Directors and going and doing their course

and I think being very well read about what’s going on across industries,

different industries, really understanding what it is you will add to a board

role, so I think that’s something that a lot of new executives can’t articulate

very well. They might say well I’m very good at you know turnarounds, but

that’s not exac-, unless you can articulate exactly how you’re going to apply

that in a board sense, it’s difficult to understand sort of what you’ll bring to a

board.

96. RW That’s right.

97. KF So I think really thinking about what it is you’ll do when you’re not the hands-

on is one of the first key steps for any…

98. RW And that board profile is very different from a CV, you’ve really got to focus

on those elements…

99. KF Yeah, the skills and…

100. RW …that you bring to a board. The skills, that’s right.

101. KF …the values you’ll bring as a board colleague as opposed to you know a

really skilled executive.

102. RW Yeah. Well one of the biggest national company directors told me the way

he gets board gigs, he sits at the Chairman’s Lounge, QANTAS, and he’s got

no flight to go on, right, but he just sits there, and they come up to him, John,

- 17 -


I was just thinking about, I need to talk to you about a board role.

103. KF Oh my god, are you kidding. Okay, so that’s not the real world though, so.

104. RW No, no, no.

105. KF For the rest of us, you know we’re out there doing a bit more to have that

happen. That would be an example of privilege as well.

106. RW That’s true privilege.

107. KF Yeah.

108. RW What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made or the regret that you have that

you’ve learned the most from?

109. KF Oh my god, we have not got hours. Oh look, I’m always making mistakes

and you know the frustrating ones are the ones you make over and over and

over again. But I definitely think, it goes back to what I’ve learnt about

myself, I think I have been too trusting in some occasions or wanting, you

know you really want, if you’re blinded by optimism, you know even if you

can see, all your red flags are going off and everything tells you that this is

you know going down a path, I’m much better now at listening to that, I think,

you know if I think back earlier in my career, you’re really hoping that things

will go differently, so I’m a lot better at that now.

110. RW Good.

111. KF Yeah.

112. RW And we call this series Game Changers, now firstly, do you consider yourself

a game changer, and what do you do?

113. KF Well there’s no way I’m going to say yes because I mean we’re Australian,

we cannot possibly say that, but I do think every leader should be a game

changer. If we’re not trying to change things for the better, than you know

what are we doing. So I would like to think I’m a game changer, that’s for

others to judge though and I really encourage all of us to you know want to

aspire to that.

114. RW And what’s on the horizon for you? Just give us, can you share any plans

- 18 -


that you may have?

115. KF No, my husband’s here and he’ll go what, you didn’t, you told me you were

just going to you know take it easy. So they’re the ones for after. Yeah,

there’s lots of, there’s so, always so many exciting opportunities, so some of

my challenge is you know learning to say no.

116. RW Right.

117. KF But I love writing so as a personal hobby I love writing, so I’m back in the

archives doing some research at the moment for my next book. But that’s a

real personal passion, a hobby. Workwise, yeah there’s always sort of new

things, nothing which I can give you a scoop on right now.

118. RW Can you give us a feel for the book you might be writing?

119. KF Well…

120. RW Give us an understanding of the theme or the direction?

121. KF Yeah, yeah, so it’s, my first degree was in history and I did an honours year

and that involved going into the archives as well, so I really love that so I’m

looking at the story of a couple of women that haven’t been told before in

Australian history, and they’re just phenomenal so that’s something that I’m

really interested in and I’m, yeah.

122. RW We might talk to you about the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame.

123. KF Yes.

124. RW There may be individuals that you’re about to uncover.

125. KF Yes, well conven-, I wish they were Queensland women, cause it would

make the archives here, not in Sydney…

126. RW Okay, right.

127. KF …but unfortunately I have to keep hauling myself to the Mitchell Library, but

yeah they’re those kind of women, which is great.

128. RW Right, good, good. Now building resilience is one of the key pillars of

leadership, just can you give us some of the experiences in your career

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where you understood the power of resilience? Because you exude a

capacity for resilience, the building of resilience throughout your career.

129. KF Yeah, well I think you learn it every time you’re knocked down, you know in,

afterwards you can think oh that was really great because it’s added

resilience, at the time you don’t feel that. You know, I think I am a strong

person but I’m not a tough person. So I am strong because I’ve dealt with a

lot of stuff and you know it’s been really tough and I’ve survived it. But I

know I’m not someone who is tough in that my nature is much more

empathetic and I don’t like confrontation and you know I don’t seek out, you

know there’s some people I think that succeed by really seeking out, pushing

people to the side and going that way, that’s, I’d rather not succeed if that

was the case. So I guess I focus on staying strong, but you can only do that

with people around you who remind you of that sometimes, you know there’s

plenty of times I forget that I’m strong and you do get through it and it’s,

yeah, another layer of resilience for next time.

130. RW Now it’s still very early days for you, but what would you want the headline of

your life to be?

131. KF Well I don’t think it’s going to be that I drove around Australia 17 times. You

know, something as simple as she did what she could. I think you know that

to me says a lot, you know, you’re trying a lot, you’re doing as much as you

can, you’re living a full life. I want to do what I can for others, I want to do

what I can to push myself, so I like this idea of you know what, if I die and

I’ve done what I could, died happy and loved, then you know I’ll be pretty

pleased.

132. RW Now questions from the audience. We do have roving mics, so please if you

have a question, please, the lights are about the right level too. There’s a

question here. Thank you very much. And please put up your hand if there’s

another question that you’d like to raise. Thanks for that.

133. XX Thank you, Kirstin. My question centres around, you’ve mentioned a couple

of times your optimism and as an optimist, eternal, myself…

134. KF Yay, the optimist.

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135. AA …and a strong person and someone who can work through strategies and all

that kind of stuff, what I’m keen to hear from you are your non-negotiables.

136. KF Yeah.

137. RW Good question.

138. KF That is a good question, because often you discover them when you’re

confronted with them as well, it’s hard to, and you know so I’ve had, I had, I

was rung about one board once, this is, I’ll get onto values but I know what

my limit is with boards and the head-hunter said oh you know you’re

travelling overseas and you’ll get paid all this money and I’m thinking great,

great, there’s going to be a catch and it was a cigarette company, so there,

that was a very clear non-negotiable for me and apologies to the smokers.

But in terms of my own non-negotiables, when, now that I get the opportunity

to look at what boards I might want to join, I think it’s the values of the people

I would have to sit around the table with are the most important and then

when I’m assessing that, it’s thinking about how they treat other people and

whether they’re respectful of other people, whether I feel that they’re honest

and ethical. Now that’s interesting anyway because everyone’s ethics are

different, but it has to be aligned with my values and my ethics and my

morals. And I think there are just clear lines in the sand where you do need

to take a stand and often no one will know you’ve done that but you need to

know that you’ve done that and I look back and think they’re my sort of hard

lines, yeah.

139. RW Another question? Right here. Thank you. Do you have a microphone

there? Right there. Thanks Nat.

140. KF It’s like pass the parcel.

141. XX Thank you. Kirstin, going on from that last question is how do you know

when to move on, like it’s not always a decision that is easy to make, there’s

not always a line in the sand. How have you made that decision?

142. KF Oh, lots of sleepless nights and 4am, my real measure of when something’s

got to change is I’ll wake up at 4 o’clock, and it’s like clockwork and that then

tells me something’s not right and if I’m in a situation that I just know, first of

all you just know, you do know but I think you try and silence it for a while

- 21 -


and think oh no, I can, you know I can fix it here or I can fix it there or if I, you

know we try and make the situation better this way, but then there comes a

point where I think you realise that it’s important for your own wellbeing and

moral line and ethical line that you need to make the change, and it is

difficult, I mean there’s nothing more difficult than having to sort of step

outside the norm. But yeah, if I’m having a few 4am wake-ups, then I know

something’s wrong and then you just have to act. And everyone would know

that sense of relief you feel when you actually do it and given I know that will

be how it feels, I sort of plough through.

143. RW Kirstin, just one thing you mentioned earlier too, I just want to come back to.

It’s unusual for senior leaders to have this active social media profile, yet

you’ve been very active on major platforms like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram

and LinkedIn for many years. Just give us the advantages or pitfalls that

you’ve experienced from having a public profile online?

144. KF Well I think there’s way more advantages than pitfalls, but there are major

pitfalls if you get it wrong. So I really encourage if you are a leader and

you’re thinking oh Twitter’s just for you know lunch or whatever, that’s so

10 years ago. It really is, social media is where your employees are, it’s

where your communities are, it’s where your stakeholders are, pick the right

platforms or do all of them but it is important to be there because you’re

hearing the conversations that are going on about your industry and about

you perhaps, or about your organisation, and if you’re not there, the

conversations are still happening, you’re just sort of over there and under a

mushroom. So I do think it’s important to be there. If you’re there though,

you have to be really aware that you need to be a leader in that space as

well and things, if you were to Tweet something you wouldn’t say in this kind

of a forum, then you’re likely to have something go wrong. So I’ve, you know

touch wood, been very fortunate cause I’m just mindful that I don’t say

anything publicly, whether it’s in a forum like this or on any social media, that

could be misinterpreted or doesn’t align with my values, so I tend to be really

positive, it tends, you know Celebrating Women was just a natural extension

because I’ll always find ways to celebrate what other people are doing. And

it’s remarkable how powerful it can be and how many opportunities come

from embracing social media. So as I said, if you’re on there, find me, it’s a

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great way to network and to be at events that you might not be at physically,

like tonight.

145. RW Mmm. Question, right here, or up, yep.

146. XX Kirstin, could you talk about the board’s role in changing company culture,

particularly in light of the Hayne Commission?

147. KF Why yes I can. Do you know my, and Robina Xavier’s here, who’s the Dean

of the Business School and I did my PhD in the board’s role in corporate

culture about five years ago and it wasn’t particularly of interest to anyone,

but suddenly now I get to talk about it, which is great. Well I think they’re

crucial, they definitely set the tone and they need to oversee the tone, but

they’re not there every day. It’s the CEO and the executive team that are

really the ones who are most critical. But it’s up to the boards to be

observing what culture is being created and that can be difficult because

you’re there infrequently and so there’s a whole range of ways that I won’t go

into that I think boards need to have a good antenna for culture. Nothing that

came out of Hayne is surprising, if you understand organisational culture and

I think an idea that we need to talk a lot more about as leaders is creating an

environment that’s psychologically safe is the term, so people can speak up

if they see breaches or they see something, without fear, and there’s a no

blame culture or if you accidentally or you inadvertently have a breach, you

can go and say look, this is what’s happened without fear of reprisal, that’s a

psychologically safe workplace and so I think boards play a crucial role, but

they’re not the ones who are actually there every day, they need to be

overseeing what the leadership is doing around culture.

148. RW Just on that point too, boards are now dealing with social pressures, they’re

dealing with a social licence really to operate, and the range of social issues

the boards are expected or companies are expected to take a public stance

on, how do you feel about the way this is heading and the different

responsib-, or the different obligations that come into play?

149. KF Did you know what I’m, tomorrow I’m talking about trust and purpose and

exactly this, this idea of CEO activism, people, you might have heard that

term. So it’s more CEOs being, whether it was around marriage equality or

modern slavery which Twiggy Forrest, did, I think boards need to be thinking

- 23 -


about what the purpose, with our CEOs, the purpose of a company is beyond

profit, because profit in and of itself isn’t a purpose. It may have been in the

past but we now know that something like 70% of millennials, and millennials

now make up more than a third of our workforce, want to work in places that

are, their purpose is to make life better, not about profit. So I do think it’s

important that you have a voice, it’s not a voice on every issue though, and

it’s not going to be right for every company, and there’s definitely a tension

there between, if you’ve got sponsors and stakeholders and shareholders

who don’t want you to have a voice around that, how you manage that.

150. RW Competing interests, that’s right.

151. KF But I don’t think it’s insurmountable.

152. RW No.

153. KF It’s more finding the right issue for your business.

154. RW What’s interesting, I’m dealing with a bunch of CEOs at the CEO Institute

and I, I‘ve come to them and said I need to hear your purpose, your

organisation’s purpose, what is the why. Not the what or the how, but what’s

the why because that’s what resonates.

155. KF Yeah.

156. RW And the value proposition that comes out of a better understanding of the

true purpose.

157. KF And saying your purpose is to make more money for shareholders or

whoever, it just is not motivating for staff.

158. RW No, of course.

159. KF But that should be the outcome, that will be the outcome if you get everything

else right. So I think it’s just thinking about it a bit differently.

160. RW Yep. Another question. There’s a question right at the back there. Thank

you. Right at the back.

161. XX Thank you very much. I really enjoyed listening to your talk and I was very

struck at the beginning, you were introduced as the Dux of your year, and I

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imagine many people would have thought you were going to go on and have

a glittering career in the military, not least of which I imagine many of the

more senior officers down at ADFA. So bearing in mind what the question

was two questions ago, why did you leave the military, and then thinking

about the last question and thinking about board culture and so forth, have

you been asked to go back and comment in your role as a civilian?

162. KF Yes, well why don’t, well firstly I’ll answer the second one first. I have gone

back and spoken with the military, I think they’ve discovered in recent years

I’m an alumni of ADFA so I now get brought back a bit. It’s funny, when I left,

so I, you have to do how many years you were educated for plus one, is

called the return of service, and that’s what I ended up doing, because I’d

started studying law at QUT and I was set on being a lawyer and I wanted to

practise law and I, there just was no opportunities at that time to do that in

the military. And I guess I hadn’t seen myself as a career military officer, I

loved the opportunities that it gave me at such a young age, particularly for

leadership experiences and travelling the world, everything the ad says is

true, but it wasn’t where I saw myself going full time. But I certainly didn’t

leave for cultural reasons myself. I think back then they had much more

inflexible working arrangements so you were posted every few years, and so

if you chose you know to get married to a serving member or to have

children, it became quite logistically difficult, and by that stage we were quite

settled in Brisbane and so that’s how that worked out. So yeah, it’s

interesting you should ask but I certainly do try and assist and I’m really

loyal, I’m a very loyal person anyway, and so feel great loyalty to the military

and the opportunities that they gave me at that time.

163. RW Another question? Right at the back, you’ve put your hand up about

10 times, I need to get to you.

164. XX You talk about your life being very eventful and you’re living a full life, I’m

curious to hear how you balance that with being a mother and what advice

you would give to your daughters to follow suit?

165. KF Well I can look at one of them. She should probably be up here answering

that. When I wrote ‘Womenkind’, I wrote a chapter about you know how

bloody difficult it is to be a working mum frankly, and all the guilt I felt all the

- 25 -


time, I felt guilty as a mum, I felt guilty as an employee and I felt guilty you

know as a wife, it was just a constant sort of ball of guilt. And it was quite a

chapter that was, you know you would have thought I was the worst mother

in the world frankly, and it was lovely having my own family read it and say

that’s not even you know reality, that’s not, wasn’t our reality, and in fact I

was at a lot of stuff, so I think as mothers we put a lot of, and parents, sorry, I

should say all parents, a lot of pressure on ourselves to be perfect, and the

breakthrough for me was just deciding not to be. And it came, there was a

moment when the kids were in primary school and we had a nanny who

would, or a lady who would come and help with the kids, and one day one of

them was sick at school and they rang the nanny first, and I happened to be

at home and I stormed down there, I was utterly indignant, I am the mother,

ring me first, yes, yes we will and of course you can probably guess what

happened, you know a couple of weeks later they ring me, I’m on a plane

overseas, and I have to concede that yes, perhaps ringing the nanny first you

know if my husband’s away or whatever is a better plan. And it was just

deciding that the guilt was doing nothing except eating me up, the kids were

perfectly happy and balanced and loving and wonderful and I think it’s being

a bit kind on yourself and getting the support. So there’s some really

practical things, you need lots of support, you need a wonderful husband

who considers parenting equally, or a partner, and I was really fortunate to

have that and I think if you can sort of somehow grapple it all through, I’ve

got about one term left, Zoe, of being a parent of school-aged children, yes.

So one’s at university, one’s about to finish and yeah then you can breathe.

So I don’t know how many years you’ve got left. But there is no easy

answer, but women supporting women, I mean you’ll find the other women, it

takes a village, all of them.

166. RW Is there a last question from the audience? Any last question? Right down

here, Nat, if you could. Thank you. Just right here. Thanks.

167. XX So someone who’s sort of just starting their career, how important is it to

have a mentor or someone that you seek advice from? Yeah, how important

do you think that is?

168. KF Huge, huge. You definitely need mentors and I have still got my mentors

from when I was at your stage in the careers so treat them with respect and

- 26 -


love and gratitude for the time that they give you and I now consider my

mentors like a bit of a buffet because you come to know what mentors are

really good at assisting you with various things and over time in fact it

becomes a mutual relationship as well. But they’re definitely really important

and then you would hope that your mentors will become sponsors so you

would have heard mentors and sponsors, they are different. You can have

lots of mentors but what, they are private relationships and you will talk about

things and they will give you advice in private. A sponsor is someone who is

prepared to really put their own reputation on the line and say actually you

need to go and have a look at this person because I think she is really

impressive and she would be great for that role. They are people who will

really help you exceed and progress. But not every mentor will become a

sponsor but in my view you have to be a mentor before you become a

sponsor because they really need to know a lot about you and trust you. But

certainly find them and stick with them and you will be really pleased with

how much they can assist you.

169. RW Kirstin can you offer any parting advice for emerging business people?

Entrepreneurs, innovators, in this audience tonight. Give us some parting

advice.

170. KF Say yes, that’s, I mean that is how I have lived my life I think and if you get

opportunities as a small business owner or an entrepreneur and someone

has a left-field suggestion and you hadn’t, you know it wasn’t in your

business plan be open to thinking about how you can actually integrate that

because you just don’t know what direction it might take you off in so I think

being prepared to say yes.

171. RW Okay good. Could I ask you please to thank Kirstin Ferguson.

172. KF Thank you.

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