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Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project Smith College Archives Northampton, MA

Class of 1946 Group Interview: Margaret DeMott Helen Goddard Abby Minot Gross Jane Hill Rosalie Taylor Howlett with: Araxi Prévot

Interviewed by Sarah Dunn, Class of 2011 May 20, 2011 © Smith College Archives 2011

Abstract In this oral history, Abby Minot Gross, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, Jane Hill, Helen Goddard, Margaret DeMott, and Araxi Prévot discuss what it was like being at Smith during World War II, working on the farms, the fire in Dickinson House, and what it has meant to them to be Smith graduates. Restrictions None Format Interview recorded on miniDV tapes using a Panasonic DVX-100A camera. One 60-minute tape. Transcript Transcribed by Jennifer Gao at the Audio Transcription Center in Boston, Massachusetts. Audited for accuracy and edited for clarity by Olivia Mandica-Hart. Bibliography and Footnote Citation Forms Video Recording Bibliography: Gross, Abby Minot, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, Jane Hill, Helen Goddard, Margaret DeMott, and Araxi Prévot. Interview by Sarah Dunn. Video recording, May 20, 2011. Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project, Smith College Archives. Footnote: Abby Minot Gross, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, Jane Hill, Helen Goddard, Margaret DeMott and Araxi Prévot, interview by Sarah Dunn, video recording, May 20, 2011, Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project, Smith College Archives, tape 1. Transcript Bibliography: Gross, Abby Minot, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, Jane Hill, Helen Goddard, Margaret DeMott, and Araxi Prévot. Interview by Sarah Dunn. Transcript of video recording, May 20, 2011. Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project, Smith College Archives. Footnote: Abby Minot Gross, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, Jane Hill, Helen Goddard, Margaret DeMott and Araxi Prévot, interview by Sarah Dunn, transcript of video recording, May 20, 2011, Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project, Smith College Archives, p. 3.

Abby Minot Gross, Helen Kingsley Goddard, Jane Holtby Hill, Rosalie Taylor Howlett, and Margaret Craig DeMott, interviewed by Sarah Dunn

Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project Smith College Archives

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Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project Smith College Archives Northampton, MA Transcript of interview conducted May 20th, 2011, with:

ABBY MINOT GROSS, HELEN KINGSLEY GODDARD, JANE HOLTBY HILL, ROSALIE TAYLOR HOWLETT, MARGARET CRAIG DEMOTT

with: ARAXI PRÉVOT

by: SARAH DUNN filmed by: GRACE MARTIN DUNN: I’m just going to give a little introduction, and then I’m going to ask

each of you to say your names for the camera so that we have that on record, and then we’ll start talking about the class of ‘46.

GODDARD: How do you want our names? All three? DUNN: Please. Yeah, please give your maiden name while you were here, and

any additions to that (laughs) that have happened. Um, are we filming? MARTIN: Yes. DUNN: OK, great. This is Sarah Dunn, and I am conducting an interview with

the multiple members of the class of 1946 on May 20th, 2011 for the Smith College Alumnae Oral History Project. Thank you for agreeing to do this with us. Can I have each of you state your name for us? Let’s start with you, yes.

GROSS: Abby Minot Gross. And what else do you want to know (laughs)? Is

that all? DUNN: That’ll be good for now. GROSS: OK, good. GODDARD: Helen Kingsley Goddard. DUNN: Wonderful. HILL: Jane Holtby Hill. DUNN: Wonderful. HOWLETT: Rosalie Taylor Howlett.



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DEMOTT: Margaret Craig Demott. DUNN: All right! So we have a lot of different kinds of questions about what it

was like. So first we’d like to start out with asking all of you how you found out about Smith and why you decided to come to Smith College. And whoever would like to answer, at any point.

HILL: Well, my mother went to Smith. DUNN: Your mother went to Smith? HILL: And we lived in Greenfield, which is 20 miles from here. GODDARD: (laughs) You didn’t have any choice! (laughter) HILL: Well I did, because I was 17 years old and I thought -- I owned my own

mind, and I decided I wanted to go to Wellesley, could I? Oh of course, she said, of course! (laughter)

DEMOTT: My mother didn’t say that (laughs). HILL: - So I got into both, and I picked Smith. GODDARD: Good, Jane Hill, I never knew that. DUNN: Wonderful. HOWLETT: My mother was also a Smith graduate, class of 1922, and I don’t think --

I wasn’t determined to come to Smith. When I was real young, I wanted to be an architect, but I chickened out. I decided I wanted to go to Smith along with a couple of my friends -- others that had gone from my school. I wasn’t very courageous (laughs).

DEMOTT: Isn’t this funny... my mother went to Smith too! (laughter) DUNN: We’ve got three granddaughters! DEMOTT: And there was no way I was going to go anywhere else. Never. I mean,

she just loved it here. GROSS: What class was she in? DEMOTT: We used to go to Connecticut in the summer time and I lived in New

York, and every summer we all made this trek up here to Northampton (laughter) and I was registered to be at Smith at age three (laughter), so --

HILL: You were trapped!



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DEMOTT: There’s no hope of anything else, she just loved it. GODDARD: I’m a total misfit! Or a transplant, or whatever. My parents both went

to the University of Minnesota, and I was born in Minneapolis, but fortunately for me we moved east!

DUNN: Wonderful! GODDARD: But fortunately for me, I never wanted to go anywhere but Smith. I

can’t tell you why, but I was obviously indoctrinated somewhere. GROSS: Well I guess I didn’t have any mother or anything who went to Smith,

but I had camp counselors -- one of my favorite teachers at the school I went to in Boston went to Smith, and very -- and then there was a very pretty girl my father sort of liked, obviously who was a lot younger, who went to Smith. So I heard all -- and there was something about Smith and the atmosphere here that appealed to me. I felt it was more open and they were -- I was getting a little bit liberalized in my point of view about things, and that appealed to me about Smith. So that’s about it.

DUNN: So what was the campus atmosphere like when you were here? You

were here from 1942 - ‘46, which was the war years. HILL: The war years. GODDARD: War years. GROSS: We were the war babies! DUNN: Very intense time in American history. So what was Smith like then

when you were here? HOWLETT: Well it changed, because the first fall we were here, there were a lot of

men around still. You know, at Amherst, everywhere. HILL: Then by Christmas time, there weren’t any (laughter). GROSS: Then they came back the last year. HOWLETT: Yep, spring of senior year we were flooded. HILL: And we were talking to our ambassadors out here and telling them that

and she said, well there were no men? And we said, no there were just the four F’s. (laughs) So we started talking about four F’s. Our ambassadors had no idea what a four F was.

DUNN: What is a four F?



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HOWLETT: See? That’s right. HILL: They were the ones that didn’t get -- were not allowed in the Army

because they flunk the physicals. GODDARD: They had physical- DUNN: So you always knew who -- GODDARD: Color blindness, sometimes flat feet, whatever. HILL: Those are the minor. GODDARD: Minor, right. Minor. The other thing was that there were great

problems with transportation. It was hard to get on trains. DEMOTT: Oh, it was. GODDARD: And there weren’t any planes at that point, so you drove and we had at

least one school vacation where we all stayed here because the train transportation was all going for troop work.

GROSS: Which vacation was that? DEMOTT: During the Battle of the Bulge? GODDARD: I have a feeling it was our junior year. Was it our junior or senior year? DEMOTT: It was the Bulge. GROSS: Junior year, the war ended in the spring. GODDARD: Well there was a spring vacation when we all stayed. DEMOTT: It was the Battle of the Bulge and they needed all the transportation. HILL: Oh, that was it. GODDARD: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. DEMOTT: That was ’42-’43 I think. HILL: We had food stamps. GODDARD: That’s right. You had to bring your food stamps.



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HILL: Blackout windows. DUNN: Blackout windows, what time would you have to -- you would have to

do that at a certain time at night or was it all the time? HOWLETT: We did anyway. DUNN: You did it all the time? GODDARD: Yeah. HOWLETT: Yeah, I mean we had to be in at 10:15 no matter what. DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: It didn’t have anything to do with the war. (laughter) DUNN: Yeah, yeah. (laughter) HOWLETT: 12 on a Saturday night. DUNN: Yes, yes. DEMOTT: Yes, it was, and then if you missed the -- if you didn’t make it... HOWLETT: You had to go in the window. DEMOTT: No, you waited on the porch. And the cop came around and let you in. GODDARD: Oh, that’s right. The other thing we had were something called heat

cops and they had to get up at six o’clock and go around and shut windows all over the house because that’s when the furnaces came on again and they didn’t want to waste the heat.

DUNN: Oh. GODDARD: It was not a job that people chose. DUNN: Yeah. So you would have your windows blacked out all day? HILL: Oh, no. GODDARD: No, no. Just when the lights were turned off. DUNN: So at 10 o’clock, when the lights went out, you would be required to

close the -- HILL: No, blackout curfew only at a certain time.



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DUNN: OK, OK. HILL: Yeah. Especially in the east coast. DUNN: Yes. GODDARD: Yeah. GROSS: We used fountain pens, so you still had the ink in little bottles, and the

ink on my desk in Dickinson House froze it was so cold. (laughter) DUNN: Is there a way to close that? HOWLETT: Mine wasn’t quite that bad. GODDARD: You should tell her about the fire. DUNN: Yes, please. Yeah, you lived in Dickinson House. GROSS: It was yeah, well it started, which was fortunate in many ways at 10:15,

so everybody had to be in the house. I can’t remember what day of the week it was, but -- so everybody was signed in, and then we heard the bell.

GODDARD: It was the night of your Christmas party. GROSS: I guess that’s right. In fact, we just celebrated the 50th anniversary of

that house. GODDARD: So it was just before Christmas vacation. GROSS: Right before Christmas vacation. GODDARD: Yes. GROSS: The 15th, I think, of December, and we also still had exams to take. GODDARD: Yeah. GROSS: So that gave us an excuse if we didn’t do very well. (laughs) That kind

of helped us through. And everybody came downstairs and lined up in the front room there.

??: I can’t hear with all that stuff. DUNN: Wait, one second.



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GROSS: And Lucy Adams was the fire chief, so we had a big hoopla getting her voted in to be the fire chief, so this gave her a real opportunity to show her stuff.

DUNN: Yeah. GROSS: And so then she called the roll of everybody and everybody answered,

and then we all went out and we were very well -- the different houses let us stay, and those of us who could, could look out the window. I was in Spanish, I was in the Spanish House, and I could see what was going on. We could get back into the house afterwards and retrieved whatever we wanted to retrieve.

DUNN: Really? GROSS: But the house, they knew that it was not safe to be fixed in. GODDARD: And I lived in Spanish House. DUNN: Now where was Spanish House? GODDARD: Spanish House was Washburn. DUNN: Oh, it was Washburn. GODDARD: Right next to Dickinson. DUNN: OK. GODDARD: And I have to tell you that I was not on that side of the house, but at

10:15 or whatever it was, we were in Spanish House. Of course, you spoke Spanish and somebody came rushing in and opened our bedroom door and said, “Hay un fuego en Dickinson” (laughter), so even when it was that exciting, she remembered to speak Spanish. (laughs)

GROSS: Somebody got an -- one of the parents got a telegram and the telegram

was reported to have said, Dickinson saved, daughter burned, or something like that. (laughter)

DUNN: Dickinson saved, daughter burned. What houses were the rest of you

in? DEMOTT: I was in Albright. DUNN: Albright? DEMOTT: My roommate decided that she had to see the fire, so she went up to the

attic, and somehow I didn’t know there was a -- she got a -- there was



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window that opened, and she stuck her head out and watched the fire because somebody went and asked the house mother if we could go see it. She said of course not. (laughter) So I was like, what did you ask her for? (laughter) She proceeded to get pneumonia because she had her head out the window, and she was one of these people who, you know, had asthma and such. So she really -- I said, (inaudible). We had a double-decker because of the war.

GODDARD: That’s right. I forgot the -- HILL: The college donated two of the dormitories and houses to the WAVES. GODDARD: WAVES. DUNN: To the WAVES. GROSS: In fact, they had a bathroom there that had showers all around it, and

that was for the WAVES, so they would go in and I guess they would go in and I guess take multiple showers. Then the next year after we came back in the fall, they had made it into a bedroom.

GODDARD: Yes, they -- they doubled us up a lot, like I was in the room that had

been a single. It had a double-decker. Well it’s fun, except for the closets.

GROSS: Yeah. GODDARD: Two girls in one small closet doesn’t work very well. (laughs) DUNN: What houses were you two in? HOWLETT: Well I was in Laura Scales for three years, but then when the Navy left,

ten of us moved into a little house called Capen Annex? and first time in history, as far as we know, the ten of us lived there without a house mother.

DUNN: Oh, wow. HOWLETT: Yeah, it was quite a change. (laughs) DUNN: Was there a house mother -- GODDARD: You didn’t even have a faculty member? HOWLETT: Well no. Nobody. DUNN: No?



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HOWLETT: Just the ten of us. DUNN: Really? GODDARD: Oh, what fun. We had a faculty person. HOWLETT: No, no, no. We didn’t. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GROSS: We did, too. GODDARD: We didn’t have a house mother. HOWLETT: One of the funny things that happened -- it was a very small house, and

the living room was not any bigger than between these couches, I guess. GODDARD: Yeah. HOWLETT: And one night, there was a fire drill. And when there’s a fire drill,

Mister [Caseman?] -- these are the men that work around, you know, would come and set off the alarm. The problem was, one of my housemates who’s here, had just washed her hair and she was sitting stark naked in a chair by the front door. (laughter) And so, when we had to wait, we couldn’t let him in. Then they announced the next day that Capen Annex, the smallest house on campus, took the longest for the fire drill. (laughter) Oh, dear. But it was really good in the spring because we were there when all our boyfriends came home.

DUNN: Yes. HOWLETT: And they would come -- and they could be right there with us in this

little house -- not overnight. They didn’t let us do that, but you know. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: That was a strange time when they all came home. HOWLETT: It was. DUNN: Was it? DEMOTT: It was the spring of ’45...’46. HILL: They were in a hurry to get married too because you know, back then, it

was not the easy relationship it is today with men. You didn’t have a relationship back then.

DUNN: Yeah.



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HILL: You got engaged and you got married. DUNN: Yes. Was there a lot of expectation around that for all of you leaving

Smith? DEMOTT: I was married a week after 23. DUNN: You were married a week after graduation? DEMOTT: (nods) Six months. GODDARD: We had some married students. Do you now? DUNN: Yeah, they’re usually the Ada Comstock Scholars. GODDARD: I was going to say. But there were a few girls that got married their

juniors or seniors year. DUNN: And stayed at Smith? GODDARD: Yes. Well their husbands went overseas, so -- DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: We had a freshman in Laura Scales who was already married. GODDARD: Did you? DUNN: At the time she came in? HOWLETT: But she only stayed a year. GROSS: Who was the one that was pregnant when she got her diploma? She had

about eight children after that. GODDARD: Nancy [Lonson?]. DEMOTT: Nancy Lonson, yeah. GROSS: Yup. DEMOTT: She was always very angry because she didn’t have the class baby and I

did. (laughter) DUNN: Remind me again what the class baby is. I’ve heard this before, but -- DEMOTT: The first baby girl --



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DUNN: Girl. DEMOTT: Who was born... GODDARD: After graduation? GROSS: After graduation -- no, not. No, I think you had to be -- I’m not sure,

but I think it was that you were married and had the first baby - you were married after graduation because there were several people married before we graduated. So I think it was after graduation. Well that’s what I was, and they claimed that I had the class baby. You know, and she’s never been back -- she was at Radcliffe. (laughter)

DUNN: Did all of you have male partners that were going off to war while you

were at Smith or did -- was that? GODDARD: Oh, we certainly had lots of friends, maybe a special one, but many --

yeah. DUNN: Yeah? GODDARD: Almost all the boys were there. DEMOTT: Brothers. GODDARD: Brothers. DEMOTT: Somebody said that we waited for the mail. The mail was very

important to us. GODDARD: That’s right. DEMOTT: The mail was delivered to each house by the mailman and it came

around 11 o’clock in the morning. (inaudible) DUNN: How was the atmosphere on campus? I know it was a really tough four

years, especially with rationing. DEMOTT: It was very democratic. HOWLETT: Very friendly. We knew each other. DEMOTT: The rich and the poor -- that was wiped out because nobody was going

to the train station in their fur coats. You know, we spent Saturday night in the library. We went to the movies by ourselves.

HILL: The library was very busy on Saturday nights.



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DEMOTT: Yeah, it was. GODDARD: Or the movie -- there used to be two movie houses. DEMOTT: Calvin. GODDARD: Calvin and The flee box or whatever. What was the other one? DUNN: Academy of Music? DEMOTT: I don't know, I never went there, but -- HOWLETT: We went to movies at the Academy of Music. DEMOTT: Yeah, the Academy of Music had movies, too. GODDARD: That’s right, special ones. Those were pretty good -- art films. GROSS: Do you remember the one that you got up and sang the Star Spangled

Banner and they showed a whole war scene with a Jeep jumping up high so you had that very high end of the Star Spangled Banner with the Jeep jumping around. (laughs) That always struck me as sort of funny.

HILL: Well there was gas rationing, so nobody came to see us. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: My mother was a Smith graduate and she had a reunion while I was

there and I remember, it must’ve been the 30th or something. Anyway, she never had missed a reunion, but she didn’t make the war one and she only visited me once while I was there. It was just too hard.

DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: One strange thing was that they had a junior prom our junior year. This

was during the war. GROSS: I don’t remember. DEMOTT: I don’t remember that. That was when Roosevelt died. HOWLETT: I remember because my friend Louise appointed me chair. (laughs) GODDARD: And you would remember, right? Was it our junior year or our senior

year? HOWLETT: Junior year, yeah. Because the war was still on (inaudible).



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DEMOTT: One dance we had, which I don’t even remember what it was, Roosevelt

died. GROSS: That would’ve happened in ’45. DEMOTT: And the dance was called off. HOWLETT: They didn’t call this one off and I had to find a four F for a partner.

(laughter) I also had no idea what his name was. I can’t remember. He was still at Amherst. Somebody found him for me, I guess.

GODDARD: He didn’t make much of an impression obviously. HOWLETT: Nope, he didn’t. (laughter) My mother did take me to Jay Thorpe to get

a dress. GODDARD: Wow. HOWLETT: Red lace. GODDARD: Oh my. HOWLETT: It was off the shoulder. HILL: Oh my goodness. GODDARD: Did you bring pictures? HOWLETT: Here? GODDARD: Yes. HOWLETT: No, I didn’t. (laughter) DUNN: Did you feel like the community on Smith was a lot stronger because of

everything going on and everything not having as many events as other years?

HILL: Well we don’t know anything else. GODDARD: That’s right – HILL: -- the only time we were here. DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: Nothing to compare it with, right?



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DUNN: Yeah, that’s true. GROSS: I think there really was a -- GODDARD: It was probably cohesive, yeah. HILL: Nobody went away any place. GODDARD: No, no. GROSS: You made your own fun. GODDARD: Yeah, that’s true. DUNN: What kinds of things would you guys do for fun? HILL: Oh, we helped out on the farmers. The farmers that -- GODDARD: Oh yeah, that’s right. DUNN: That’s right. HILL: Because they were off at war. DUNN: Yeah. HILL: So we went to the potato fields and dug potatoes and we climbed apple

trees and picked apples. DEMOTT: That was a dirty job. HILL: We didn’t get paid for it. DUNN: No? GODDARD: No -- a couple of apples. HILL: Yeah, we took whatever apples we wanted. DEMOTT: The peaches were wonderful. GODDARD: (laughs) Put it in your pocket, yeah. DEMOTT: I remember picking peaches. GODDARD: Peaches, did you?



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DEMOTT: Yeah. GODDARD: Oh yes because there’re wonderful peaches up around Greenfield. DEMOTT: Yeah. HOWLETT: For those of us who had to travel a distance to go home, it was sort of

funny. Our parents would send us off to sleep overnight to have berths. They’d send us the money to go home that way, but of course we didn’t spend it that way. We went home coach, and used it for other methods, and my roommate and I -- we met a really nice soldier name George [Magume?] from New Hampshire.

GODDARD: Sitting up on the train? HOWLETT: Yeah, and he came to visit us here afterwards. GODDARD: Good. HOWLETT: You know, I in fact corresponded with him for quite a while. GODDARD: Good. DUNN: Was there times when men would come, like the Army, people in the

Army, like who were stationed nearby? Were there anybody stationed nearby?

(several): Oh yeah. HILL: There were the Chicopee- GODDARD: Yes, there was the- GROSS: West Dover Fields. HILL: We were sent over to entertain the boys or something (laughs). HOWLETT: And also, the first spring freshmen year, they had an ASDP program at

Amherst. HILL: Yeah. At Williams in the fall. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DEMOTT: There were meteorologists at Amherst. PRÉVOT: There were some four F students at Amherst. They were four F because

they were not qualified for being drafted.



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GODDARD: Well the other thing -- I wasn’t in it, but mostly people that were theater majors had the, Factory Follies, wasn’t it called?

HOWLETT: Oh yeah, it was great. GODDARD: They went around -- they had a wonderful show and they went around

and entertained in various factories where people were working, you know, day and night, whatever it was.

DUNN: Was it like a dance routine? GODDARD: Yes, mostly. DUNN: Yeah, yeah. HOWLETT: Do they still have Rally Days here? DUNN: Oh yes, we still have Rally Day. It’s changed a little, but -- GODDARD: And you still have Mountain Day? DUNN: And we still have Mountain Day. HOWLETT: How has it changed? DUNN: We -- well I think when you were here, you wore your gowns, right? (several): No. GROSS: We had costumes. DUNN: You had costumes, yes. DEMOTT: Rally Day was a real performance. People spent - girls so long --

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GODDARD: We made a play. DUNN: Yeah, you made a play for each class year, right? (several): Yup, yup. DUNN: We used to do that until about the early 2000s, and for some reason, the

shows left, which I was very sad about when I came here. DEMOTT: Yeah, it was a big deal.



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DUNN: We wear our robes. It’s the first day that we’re allowed to wear our robes, but we don’t wear our hood. We cannot wear our cap.

HOWLETT: Yeah. DUNN: And so instead of wearing the cap, we all make really funny hats. GODDARD: Oh, good. HOWLETT: That’s fun. DUNN: So we each choose a way to express however we want to express our

funny hat and we meet up in the campus center now and we go and we rally to John M. Greene Hall, and that’s the day that we have our Rally Day medalists, who were alum, that we award medals to.

DEMOTT: The show was in the evening. DUNN: Yes, yes. And now the night before, we do a carnival of sorts, where

the students can come and we also have a wonderful presentation from Nanci Young, our college archivist, about what Rally Days before looked like, and so we get a lot of enjoyment out of watching and looking at old pictures from various different times about how Rally Day has changed.

HILL: Very creative on Rally Day. DUNN: Yeah. I was at Baccalaureate, which is still happening as well this last

week because I just graduated on Sunday, and our Dean of Religious Life said, you know, Smithies are all about traditions and it’s so true still, but we’re always about taking the tradition and then changing it a little tiny bit as the years go on. We always keep them, but they’re always slightly different and we kind of make out of them what we need for that time.

HILL: It should be. Should be, times change. GODDARD: Yeah. That’s right. DUNN: Did all of you end up going out and working in the farm in the

community? HOWLETT: Volunteers. DUNN: It was volunteers?



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DEMOTT : Well they used to take -- there were trucks that used to park in front of John M. Greene on the weekend days and if you wanted to go, you showed up.

HILL: You showed up. DEMOTT: And then you went to whatever farm. I hated it when I had potatoes. HILL: Like the work crews today, only we didn’t get paid. DEMOTT: Fruit was great, but potatoes were - (laughs) PRÉVOT: My first pair of jeans ever, so I could go work on the farm. We went

over to the Army/Navy store and bought a pair of jeans. HOWLETT: There were also jobs available because of the men being away. After

my sophomore year, I worked at a neighborhood house, a settlement house, in Cleveland, and they hired me with only junior lifesaving and I had to take these kids swimming. I was a nervous wreck.

GODDARD: Yeah. HOWLETT: We’d take them out on a truck -- each class, one day a week, and the

guy that drove the truck was helpless. His name was Mister Payne and he was from Paynesville. (laughter) So it was easier to get a summer job that way because there were so many vacancies.

HILL: Oh, yeah. DUNN: So what happened? How did that change as you were coming out of

Smith? What were the expectations after you left? HOWLETT: Well I can tell you one thing. I was exposed to a lot of poverty, which I

had never been exposed to before, which is a really good thing. In fact, my father was probably turning in his grave. I eventually became a Democrat. (laughter) And my mother was not approving either.

HILL: Right. I was brought up in a very, very Republican household and the

minute I hit Smith, I took this wonderful government course, and I immediately became a Democrat.

GROSS: I voted for Roosevelt when they had a straw vote here, and again, I was

going against what I -- GODDARD: Did you tell your parents? GROSS: I don’t remember. My mother, at the very end of her life, became a

Democrat, and I never really -- well anyway, that’s beside the point.



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HILL: Well, we didn’t discuss politics at home. GODDARD: Nope, not at all. My father’s attitude was, I spent all this money and

you turned - (laughter) You got these damned ideas. HOWLETT: We all got that, I guess. DEMOTT: My mother was a Smith girl in 1913, and she was a socialist. HOWLETT: Oh, good. DEMOTT: And my father was a Democrat , and my grandfather who he lived with

was a Republican and they - we discussed politics all the time. GODDARD: Good. DEMOTT: With no anger. HILL: Oh, my. GODDARD: That’s wonderful. DEMOTT: It was great, it was great. HILL: Unusual family. DEMOTT: You know New Englanders, they can be peculiar (laughs). DUNN: So when you left Smith, did -- and especially since the war was coming

to a close by that point, right? DEMOTT: Yeah. DUNN: Was it a big change for you to come out into the world with men

coming back? HILL: Oh, we could all get married. DEMOTT: Because we would. We all got married. HOWLETT: I took a year. (laughter) DEMOTT: Well that isn’t very long. HOWLETT: But then also, I ended up having to work, while my husband went to law

school. Many of them had to finish their education, so there were jobs that they weren’t yet ready for.



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DUNN: Were you involved in any organizations on campus while you were here

or was there anything-? HILL: I don’t think there were. GODDARD: Well Jane and I were both lifeguards in the Exhibition Swimming. GROSS: Oh yes, I was a lifeguard and I belonged to the SCACAW, the

Christians of Smith College. PRÉVOT: We had grass cops. HILL: Grass cops? GODDARD: Were you a grass cop Araxi? PRÉVOT: I was a grass cop. DUNN: You were a grass cop? GROSS: What did you do as a grass cop? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GODDARD: She blew a whistle - DUNN: Would you like to come over and sit, or -? HOWLETT: Nobody walked on the lawn. PRÉVOT: (inaudible) in Iraq and not leave it dumped on the ground. GODDARD: That’s right. (laughter) HILL: Oh there’s one thing, very unusual back then. Nobody had a key to

their room. No rooms had keys. The house was open all the time. You just came in and out of every house. You left your purse in your room. Everything was very open.

DEMOTT: But we did have people on watch. HILL: We had somebody on watch, but they did their homework in the front

room. DEMOTT: Ours plays at a desk in the hall. HOWLETT: We, in Laura Scales, got cleaned out once. GODDARD: Did you?



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HILL: You did? HOWLETT: Yes, somebody came in while we were all at lunch and went through all

our rooms and took all the money out of the building. HILL: Oh, for heaven’s sake. GODDARD: Wow. DUNN: Oh really? When was this? HILL: Must’ve been ’44. HOWLETT: Yeah, it was during whenever I was living in Laura Scales. HILL: I think about it now and it’s appalling that you just leave your money

and your purse, which was on the desk. DUNN: Yeah. GROSS: Do they still have house mothers? DUNN: No, those are gone now. GODDARD: They are? GROSS: When did that -? DUNN: Yeah, that ended -- it was all the way through the 60s, and I think into

the early 70s. I might actually have it written down. GODDARD: Do they have faculty residents? DUNN: Currently, what we do -- I believe it was in the 70s, like we had house

mothers up until the 70s, and then – DEMOTT: That’s when all the liberal things starting happening in the colleges. DUNN: Yeah, and then everything started changing a bit, and now what happens

is we have students are in charge. So it’s all about students running their own houses. They work very closely with Residential Life and people in ResLife offices, but there are certain students that are elected house president, or get the job of house president.

DEMOTT: Well we had -- we had house meetings and we had presidents.



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DUNN: Yes, yes, but now we don’t have, that’s who is in the house -- they either work for ResLife, Residential Life Services here at Smith, and then we also have a house president, and between those two people, they try to keep the order in the house.

GODDARD: Think of all the old ladies that are widowed that you’ve kept out of the

job, though. DUNN: I know, yeah. GODDARD: That’s where they all had work. DUNN: They were all widowed women? GODDARD: Mostly, I think all the ones I can think of, were widowed, middle-aged

ladies. They’re quite -- GROSS: A lot of them were pretty elderly. HILL: They were pretty elderly. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DUNN: Did they live in the dorms with you? GODDARD: Spanish House, we had a -- HOWLETT: We had one problem. My dear friend Lee and I invited Mary Ellen

Chase for dinner, but neglected to tell the house mother. GODDARD: Whoops. HILL: Oh... HOWLETT: This was something of a shock. We didn’t know we were supposed to

tell her. (inaudible) DEMOTT: Our house used to have faculty dinners, which met once every two

months, and so it was sort of a standard operation. GODDARD: A certain night, yeah. We did that, too. DEMOTT: Thursday night, I think it was actually. Of course, we all sat down to

the table, napkins and tablecloths every night. DUNN: Yeah, yeah. You had dinner within your house? DEMOTT: Yeah. DUNN: So was it pretty much just your house communities at dinners?



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DEMOTT: Absolutely only. DUNN: How was that getting to know other people in other houses? Was it -- DEMOTT: No good. HILL: You invited some of the other ones. GODDARD: You could invite somebody once a week. HILL: Not too much of the -- DUNN: So you feel like the communities stayed within the houses a lot of the

time? GODDARD: Yeah. You met people in your classes, but the people that you lived

with were the people in-house that you saw every day, all night. HILL: And there’s one thing that I thought back on. Outside each dining room,

there was a box, a square box like a mailbox. DEMOTT: With your napkins. HILL: You put your own napkin in it. GROSS: Oh, that’s right. I forgot about that. HILL: The napkins were changed once a week. (laughter) GODDARD: That’s right. HILL: Can you imagine using the same napkin for seven days for three meals a

day? DEMOTT: I have a feeling we didn’t bother to go to the box for break-- well we

didn’t eat breakfast. I never -- (laughs) PRÉVOT: We volunteered to work in the kitchen. (overlapping dialogue;

inaudible). Some people came late. There were very few employees. GROSS: We had the first African-American professor living in our house. DUNN: Oh really? GROSS: Her name -- what was her first name? DEMOTT: Everybody had -- (inaudible)



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GODDARD: It wasn’t Anita. (laughs) DUNN: You had the first African-American? GROSS: Yeah, yeah. That was when I lived in Gillett House. DUNN: OK. PRÉVOT: Jane White was in the class ahead of us. GODDARD: Jane. PRÉVOT: Jane White was the first, first -- DUNN: She was on the House of Representatives? HOWLETT: Yes. GODDARD: Well, her father was head of the NAACP. DUNN: Yeah, she was on the House of Representatives. GODDARD: Yup, yeah. HOWLETT: I’ve got a question. DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: Who lives in those beautiful suites that the house mothers used to live

in? DUNN: Seniors or -- GODDARD: Lucky, lucky seniors. DUNN: Lucky house -- usually it’s Residential Life who get that job and they

get that suite. GODDARD: Oh, how nice. DUNN: It’s a beautiful -- they’re beautiful rooms. HOWLETT: Yes, they are. DUNN: They’re part of the reason of people wanting to be in Residential Life

and be working for that.



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GODDARD: Fair enough. DUNN: Because when you do Residential Life, you get free room and board, so

that’s a way for students who maybe -- GODDARD: That helps them, helps college, right. DUNN: Need the assistance, yeah and it helps the college, and there’s a big

connection with Residential Life and the students, and they meet once a week and they have meetings and the Head of Residential Life and the Head of the House Presidents sit on our Student Government Association boards, so we have a lot of communication.

GROSS: Do students have any kind of problem? Do they maybe first go to that

person? DUNN: Yes. GROSS: Or is that the -- DUNN: Yes, they would be asked to go to their house president or their ResLife

resident in the house, and if that can’t be solved that way, then they’ll go to the actual office, and there’s -- they’re trained in many different ways to deal with mediating conversations.

HILL: Yeah, I think a lot more than some of the house mothers were.

(laughter) GROSS: They’re more the age of the people. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DEMOTT: The house mothers had a kitchen staff they had to deal with. DUNN: Oh, yeah. HOWLETT: We were a part of the kitchen staff. (laughter) DEMOTT: Yes, we were. DUNN: Yeah, would you like to sit over here so you’re in the-? I want to have

everybody-. HOWLETT: Until we got here, everybody got waited on. DUNN: Yup. GODDARD: Oh, they got waited on and their beds were made. DEMOTT: That’s right. We had somebody clean our room even.



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HOWLETT: We still had what they called maids, who picked up our sheets, and I

can remember -- HILL: I sent my laundry home. I had to. HOWLETT: Oh, our own laundry, but I’m talking about the sheets. But the sheets,

they were tan. I can remember when Sadie fell into the big bin that the sheets were in. (laughter) You have the little memories that are not much to do with the war, except the fact that they were the only breaks we had, were the ones to do with the sheets (inaudible). We had kitchen duty and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) We did have a cook.

DEMOTT: We didn’t have any maids at all. DUNN: You lived in a co-op? DEMOTT: We did everything. Yeah. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: We were talking about that last night and we were talking about our

jobs. We had permanent jobs and my roommate decided that she didn’t like the way the bathrooms were taken care of, so she took on that job, cleaned the bathrooms, and I said, (inaudible) (laughter) I did dishes.

GROSS: We used to have room inspections. GODDARD: Oh, I forgot that. That’s right, that’s right. DUNN: White gloves. DEMOTT: After the WAVES came, that got to be the thing. We had room

inspections. DUNN: So what were the WAVES again? Can you tell me a little bit? GODDARD: WAVES? They were the feminine branch of the Navy. PRÉVOT: Women’s officer training for the Navy. DUNN: Oh, ok. GROSS: And they sang -- you could mingle... GODDARD: They marched around (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)



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GROSS: The two songs together. The Navy song and the WAVES song. And they blended it together.

GODDARD: Well they took over a couple of houses and part of the hotel. HOWLETT: The Northampton Hotel. GODDARD: They used to march up through town and into the classrooms that they

were using. Yeah. HILL: They were in Northrop and Gillett. GROSS: Well they were very impressive. HOWLETT: And there was a huge celebration when they moved out of Wiggins

Tavern. GODDARD: That’s right, that’s right. We didn’t have any Wiggins Tavern -- which

was sort of the only place to go to dinner with your parents or somebody.

DUNN: Yeah, yeah. HILL: And we had [Rahads?] Tavern, too. DUNN: [Rahads?], yes, yes. That was down over on -- GODDARD: I don’t know the name of the street, but -- HOWLETT: It’s a little side street off of -- DEMOTT: It’s behind the -- you know where the bus station is. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: Well it was in that area. GODDARD: It’s that little side street down there. It was a wonderful old house and

actually there were rooms there. DEMOTT: I put my boyfriend up there once. GODDARD: A few people stayed there, but mostly college kids went to drink there

and when the inspectors weren’t around, they served us beer even though we were 18 years old.

GROSS: Was there another place you could go drink?



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GODDARD: The Draper. GROSS: The Draper. GODDARD: If you had a strong stomach. (laughter) DUNN: Was there a lot of going out? DEMOTT: No. HOWLETT: Not really. GODDARD: Not a lot, but a certain amount. HILL: There were no dates. DUNN: Yeah, there were no dates, that’s true. Which professors or mentors

inspired you? I heard you talking about Mary Ellen Chase. GROSS: Oh, Victoria [Stranger?] who died. She was wonderful. She used to go

down into the [Orchid?] and see about four plays every weekend and come back.

DUNN: So you all knew that Chase and Duckett lived together at the time? GODDARD: Yes. HILL: Yes. DUNN: Was that pretty common information? DEMOTT: Almost all the English teachers (inaudible). It was a standard thing that

happened, in a way , when women were intellectual, they always lived together, for years and years.

GODDARD: Probably for financial reasons more than anything else. DEMOTT: Did they have special name for them, but since ’87, that name has

flown. GODDARD: Didn’t seem odd. DEMOTT: I will remember it in the middle of the night. (laughter) GROSS: Then what happened to Mister Fisher? Our Professor Fisher, didn’t he

have a child by somebody named (inaudible)? GODDARD: He married her.



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HILL: Married her. GODDARD: That’s right. GROSS: Yeah.

DUNN: Was she a -- member of the faculty or a student? GROSS: No, she was a student. GODDARD: She was a student. He’d been married several times before. Oh, he was

married to Mary Francis Kennedy. GROSS: Oh my God. GODDARD: And MK Fisher was his first wife. It’s all in their recent book about her. DEMOTT: We had a girl who married the Spanish professor. DUNN: Did that happen a lot and was that -- DEMOTT: Oh, I don’t know, it was a shock to all of us. DUNN: It was a shock? DEMOTT: Yeah it was because -- DUNN: That’s where I was getting, sorry. Oh yeah. GODDARD: Yes, but he was so attractive. DEMOTT: Who, the Spanish guy? GODDARD: No I thought you meant -- we were talking about Al Fisher. HILL: Oh, Al Fisher was handsome, yes. GROSS: Mister [Denoon?] descended a staircase -- DUNN: What was that? GROSS: Mister [Denoon?] was a sociology professor, and everybody talked

about Mister [Denoon?] descending the staircase -- (laughter) GODDARD: That’s pretty good. Those were only the art majors. GROSS: Well for the alliteration. Lovely.



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DUNN: So, go ahead. HOWLETT: One of my professors, when I was sick with the flu at the infirmary, sent

me a whole bag of fresh oranges. DUNN: Aww. GODDARD: Oh, wasn’t that nice? HOWLETT: It was Mister Rice. Yeah. I liked that. And I loved -- what was Mister

Taylor? The physics professor? My mother had had him. DEMOTT: I had a math teacher that my mother had. GODDARD: Good lord, really? That’s amazing. HOWLETT: But he was still wonderful. He was so good. Fortunately, I didn’t have

to go into a lab. It was a theory course because I was a disaster in the lab. That’s why I gave up physics. Anyway, it was really quite --

GROSS: Who was the big man that taught history and had quite an accent? GODDARD: Oh, Hans Cohen. GROSS: Oh, Hans Cohen! (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DUNN: Was -- it was President Davis was here, right? Was he really accessible

to you all or did you -- (multiple): No. GODDARD: He was not particularly popular at least among my friends. He was

rather -- PRÉVOT: I had a friend who lived in the Davis House. It was one of the English

kids. It was one family of four children -- my friend Liz and her three younger brothers and there was another girl and their folks had been colleagues of our neighbors in Cambridge and then the war started. They were sent over here and they were invited by Smith. I guess they were guests of Smith. They lived in (inaudible). Liz only stayed her freshmen year and then she moved on (inaudible). People at that time thought, oh the war will be over in six weeks or maybe six months, and then it wasn’t over and it wasn’t over. Parents over there wanted their children back, but they couldn’t all go together because it was too dangerous. They had to wait for someone. Liz stayed at my house while waiting for them -- I’m going to leave. Then she went back and the strange thing was my dad had come over as an exchange just in time



31

when she was leaving. He was here and she had left. And then the boys went back.

HOWLETT: One of them met with us in Berkeley. Was it Elizabeth? One of the four

came and met with our group at Berkeley just last year. Or maybe she lives -- I thought she lived there now, and I thought it was Liz.

DEMOTT: One of those children lived in Albright House with us. DUNN: You lived in Albright? DEMOTT: Yeah. GODDARD: We had several presidents. We also had Haley Flanagan Davis. PRÉVOT: Liz did live in Albright. DUNN: Davis was a brief, right? GODDARD: She was only here for a year? Two years? DEMOTT: No, she was here and I forgot -- somebody else was wondering about

her. PRÉVOT: Home was president’s house, but she lived in Albright. GODDARD: She was into theater. DEMOTT: Her progress in administration and people were appalled that we would

have somebody -- one of Roosevelt’s people here. I’m sure. GODDARD: (laughs) I’m sure. DEMOTT: She was dean and everybody sensed she wasn’t a very good dean, but

she also worked in the drama department. DUNN: Yes. GROSS: She came from Vassar, didn’t she? GODDARD: I don't know. She was dean, but -- Davis, didn’t we have more than one

president there? DEMOTT: Yes, we did. HOWLETT: No. We did? DEMOTT: The lady who was trustee. Oh come on, it’s an old family.



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DUNN: I think it was a very brief -- GODDARD: Anne Morrow Lindbergh’s mother. DEMOTT: Yes. Elizabeth Morrow. DUNN: Yeah, it’s Morrow. HOWLETT: Anne Morrow Lindbergh’s sister was arrested in our house for a while. HILL: Oh really? (multiple conversations; inaudible) PRÉVOT: The Davis’ had two girls and when we were freshmen, the youngest one

was probably about seven or eight. GODDARD: She was Dean. I kept thinking she was the president. PRÉVOT: The other was about 11 or something and Mrs. Morrow was wonderful

with us and then the Walden family had three boys younger than five. The two youngest ones were always on their bicycles and those who lived in the quad (inaudible) high schools back and forth. We’d see the two Wilson boys riding their bicycles around there. They were about, I don't know, eight and ten or something, I thought.

HOWLETT: Anyway, it was different. That’s for sure. DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: I remember several of us that were close friends here, went down to

New York. In May, we got out early from school and were going to Oklahoma and my friend Barbara, my roommate and I -- we were walking down Fifth Avenue and all the bells began to ring all over New York. It was the end of the world.

DUNN : Oh, my gosh. HOWLETT: It was amazing to be there when that happened. GROSS: Do you remember when Roosevelt died? GODDARD: Yes. HILL: I remember exactly where I was. GROSS: I do too.



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DEMOTT: That was a weekend -- maybe it was a house dance, because -- that’s probably what it was -- a house dance because my boyfriend had gotten out of the service, so he was in Washington. And he came up then and we didn’t even have the dance. They canceled the dance.

DUNN: Yeah. I’m going to do one more question. Is that OK? GODDARD: Fine. DUNN: I just want to like talk about what difference has a Smith education

meant to all of you and if you had the same choice, would you do it again? What did it mean to be a Smithie? What does it mean to be a Smithie, to be a graduate of Smith College, for your time period and when you look back on things?

HILL: Well we’re looking back from ages 86 or 87 to when we were 17. DUNN: Yeah. HILL: We have changed. DUNN: Yes, I’m sure, a lot. GODDARD: Hopefully. (laughs) DUNN: Would you have come to Smith? Would you do it all over again? GODDARD: Absolutely. HILL: Probably. DEMOTT: I wouldn’t have been allowed into anything else. DUNN: You were stuck. DEMOTT: I was stuck. GROSS: I couldn’t persuade my daughters, so I think it was harder to get into

Smith when they were trying because they were part of the boomer generation.

DUNN: Yeah. GROSS: But in some ways, I think it just opened up my life a lot. DEMOTT: It did. HILL: Oh, I learned an awful lot.



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GODDARD: I agree, Abby, yes. I find that most -- when you say that you went to

Smith, people say, oh...it’s something to be proud of you because you impress others with the fact that you got here and stayed here I guess.

DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: I didn’t take advantage of it nearly enough. I realized – GODDARD: True. DEMOTT: Of course you didn’t. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Of course we

didn’t. HOWLETT: I had to please and I would just work to get things approved of. I didn’t

have any creative. So it took quite a few years before I changed, and when I went to graduate school, it was a very different experience. Yeah.

DUNN: Well thank you so much for sitting with us. GODDARD: You did very well. We enjoyed it. GROSS: You’ve given us a good time, too. DUNN: Good, I’m glad. This is what we like to do. This is a very experimental

thing for us, so that’s great. This is only the second -- GODDARD: Don’t forget the bookmarks! DUNN: No, I will be back and I will be back by to drop off the bookmarks on

my way back. GODDARD: That’s right. You too did a good job. We were comfortable. Hope it

was successful. DUNN: Oh, me too, me too. It’s successful for me right now, so I feel good. GODDARD: Good, good. (laughs) DUNN: I hope the lawnmower out there didn’t bother us. GODDARD: Didn’t bother us. DUNN: Didn’t bother too much. We’ll have to see. GODDARD: Hope it didn’t affect the sound?



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DUNN: Yeah, but it was wonderful to be able to talk to all of you and I love being able to do it together as a group.

GROSS: We didn’t question you about your experiences. DUNN: Any question you would like. HILL: What year are you? DUNN: I graduated 2011, last Sunday. HOWLETT: Oh, good. DUNN: I’m an Ada Comstock Scholar. GODDARD: Wonderful. What are you going to do? DUNN: I am going into Teach for America. GODDARD: Are you? Good, do you know where you’re going to be? DUNN: Boston. GODDARD: Aha, doing what? DUNN: Teaching English as a second language. GODDARD: Good. DUNN: In very low income inner city schools or impoverished schools, so that’s

what -- GROSS: You do get a lot of support because my granddaughter did this in

Philadelphia and her first year was really very difficult. I think she got support. She got some tough support from her mother, but I hope you get, you know --

DUNN: Yeah. GROSS: People to talk with. DUNN: Luckily, I’m in Teach for America, which is a really wonderful

organization, so they really try -- they pair you up with another teacher who’s already been through it.

GODDARD: Oh good.



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DUNN: And they have a headquarters and their own offices in Boston, so I can come back to them.

DEMOTT: It’s really essential. My daughter went into New York City on her own. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: And by December, she had had it. She didn’t have nobody helping her. DUNN: Yeah. DEMOTT: And she was a very young teacher. DUNN: I’m nervous. (laughs) DEMOTT: She left all my children’s books for her classroom and walked out. I

could’ve crowned her! (laughter) GROSS: Are you from Boston? DUNN: I am not from Boston. I actually moved here from Seattle, Washington.

I was raised in Arizona and when I was 19, I moved to Seattle on my own. I had gone to a year of community college, had a really horrible high school experience, and moved to Seattle to kind of start over, and then five years after living in Seattle, I went back to community college. I realized that I could actually -- I was actually a very smart person and (laughs) I could get good grades, and I found out about Smith College and the Ada Comstock program here, and I decided to apply and I was lucky to get in because our program’s been cut the numbers a lot over the last few years. It’s becoming a lot more difficult to get in as an Ada here. I was one of 36 women chosen out of over 200.

HOWLETT: That’s wonderful. DUNN: It’s been pretty competitive to get in, but once you’re here, they do a

great job at giving us funding because my family doesn’t come from any sort of -- (laughs)

GODDARD: Yeah, but that’s wonderful. DUNN: I wasn’t going to have help from them, so Smith really takes us in and

gives us an opportunity. I’m blessed to have a second chance and I’m absolutely grateful to be here.

GODDARD: And you’ve turned into an east coast person now. DUNN: I love east coast all the way. (laughter)



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GODDARD: Good, good. HOWLETT: Where in Boston? Are you in the city proper? DUNN: I’m not sure yet where we’re going to end up. We’ll probably end up in

Somerville or Cambridge area. HILL: That’s a fun place to be. DUNN: Yeah, I’m excited for it. My partner and I will be moving over together,

and she will be beginning at Le Cordon Bleu Culinary School. GODDARD: Oh good. GROSS: Oh my goodness. GODDARD: So you’ll eat well. DUNN: I will eat very well. (laughs) Let’s hope. No, I will. I already do. It’s

great, but it’s been a wonderful -- honestly, two years was too short for me, but I’m lucky I even had two, so I just have to keep moving forward on that and say, you know, at least I was here for two years and I made the best out of my two years here, let me tell you.

GODDARD: I’m sure you did. DUNN: I made the best out of it. I tried to, I came in, I was 27 when I came in.

I lived a mile off campus, so you know, the community of housing, all of that wasn’t really there for me. It was difficult, but I was here all the time. I stayed as long as I could during the days. I played for Smith Rugby Team the two years I was here. I’d never played a team sport before, and I thought that would be a really fun way to jump into something exciting and different, and so playing a team sport and being with the traditional students who are 18-22 was the best thing that I could’ve ever done.

GODDARD: Yeah. HILL: Good. DUNN: Because it allowed me to have a really true college experience. (laughs) HOWLETT: Well Ada Comstock is such a good thing. DUNN: Yes. HOWLETT: I belong to something called the University of California Santa Cruz

Women’s Club, and it’s people from the university and the community,



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and the purpose is to raise money for scholarships for re-entry students, but they don’t have the kind of program you have here.

DUNN: Yeah. HOWLETT: It’s just simply helping them. DUNN: And the program here is definitely changing from where it was in ’75,

when Jill Ker Conway began it, to where it is now. It’s very different and I mean, this is a program that Smith launched.

GODDARD: Yup. DUNN: We were the first school in the country to ever say -- DEMOTT: They used to take older people, didn’t they? DUNN: Yeah. Linden Hall wanted to begin a program for mature women is

what he called it, so I think it was starting to kind of begin, and then when Jill came in to take over in ’75, she pushed the program right through. It was one of the first things she did and a lot that she said -- it was the middle of a recession and she looked at that paperwork and she said, this needs to happen. It doesn’t matter, we’re going to find the money. Pushed it through and found the money. It was amazing what she did.

DEMOTT: Yeah. DUNN: And over the years, things have changed. I mean, Mount Holyoke now

has their own non-traditional student program based of our program here and things have just -- there’s a lot more options for women. There’s a lot of things happening, so I hope that in the future, that Smith still sees it as a very vital and important part of their campus and I think that they will, but it’s definitely changing. There’s less of us now and it’s difficult.

GROSS: What years do most people come from? DEMOTT: Is it time for our meeting? DUNN: They usually go between -- (undetermined): We’re talking about archives. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DUNN: Two to three or four. Some of them say four, but they came in with a

little amount of credits. I came in with 64 credits already completed. GROSS: I see.



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DUNN: So I just kind of -- END OF INTERVIEW Transcribed by Jennifer Gao, July 28, 2011.

smith college alumnae oral history project€¦ · 2011. smith college alumnae oral history...

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