sensei higaonna interview

© 2011 Scuola di Karate-Do, www.scuoladikaratedo.it, translated by Maurizio Di Stefano e Enda Flannelly pag. 1/12

Extract from "Okinawa Karate no Shinjitsu", The True about Okinawan Karate, Toho Editions, 2nd edition, 7/11/2009 Kata are collections of techniques learned during real combat Morio Higaonna – Goju Ryu – Hanshi 10° dan Breathing is everything

To begin with, perhaps you could explain to us the characteristics that are peculiar to Goju Ryu? Higaonna: In simple terms, we’re talking about techniques capable of producing hardness and softness through breathing. So does that mean that the techniques are simply based on breathing? Higaonna: Exactly. Movement while breathing. It is the harmony between one’s body and one’s breathing. It is often said that one breathes in quickly and one breathes out slowly... Higaonna: Indeed. Basically there are 6 ways to breathe: to breathe in quickly and breathe out quickly, to breathe in quickly and breathe out slowly, to breathe in slowly and breathe out quickly, and so on; there are many ways.

And their use depends on the techniques, does it not? Higaonna: Exactly, it depends on the techniques. The importance of breathing is so great that you can actually say that it is everything. Naturally, such a breathing method is initially undertaken in a conscious way, but training gradually leads to a state in which one becomes unaware of one’s breathing. In that case, isn’t it the exact opposite of the Shurite school? Shurite maintains that breathing must be natural. Higaonna: And so it should be. Our breathing method calls for breathing in through the nose and breathing out through the mouth. And then we have diaphragmatic breathing [ed. “Tanden Kokyu”]. There’s also abdominal breathing. When we breathe out, we do so from the mouth, but we can also

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breathe out from the nose. When we breathe out, as the mouth opens, the throat closes in a natural way. We carry out our techniques in accordance with this way of breathing, but we don’t show our breathing to our adversary. You don’t hear it. We breathe in silence. At the beginning we focus on it as we practice, but it eventually becomes natural or automatic. But our breathing should not be heard first. Not showing our breathing means not allowing our movements to be anticipated, isn’t that so? Higaonna: Exactly. That is why as soon as our adversary breathes out we immediately carry out our techniques. This is why it’s necessary to be able to perceive breathing. We use our breathing to interpret that of our adversary.

Initially we consciously train our breathing, in order to learn to read that of our opponent. Humans determine the conditions for victory or defeat at that moment in which they are breathing out. You cannot attack when you’re breathing in. This is why Goju Ryu teaches us to breathe deeply and in such a conscious manner. As we get older the way we move changes, and so does the way we breathe. We can stop breathing and apply a given force, or enact that force together with our breathing. But it’s necessary to perceive this in a conscioues way. In sanchin we apply a force as we breathe out while saying “Ah”. This is also the case when kicking, given that there are certain kicks that we carry out without breathing and others that call for a release of energy as we breathe out. It can be difficult at the beginning if we can’t perceive all this.

This is also apparently the case with the Chinese chuan fa [ed: kenpo in Japanese]. Its traditional combat techniques call for a link between breathing and the emission of energy: Goju Ryu, therefore, adds to that tradition its own unique brand of study, isn’t that right? Higaonna: As part of the teachings of the Master Chojun Miyagi, it is stressed that when we breathe the first thing we should perceive is our loin area [ed: “koshi”: a specific term that indicates the pelvis, the hips and the belly in karate] and our lumber vertebrae. And also the tanden. The anus is tightened as if we are trying to retract it and we channel our energy to the centre of our body. When we breathe out we do so directly, from the mouth. In this way the speed is increased and power is created. Koshi, in a draw by Yamashiro Sensei Muchimi Higaonna: When we block, we shouldn’t use force. “Muchimi” means that before your adversary attacks you already have to be in control. Does “Muchimi” not mean elasticity then? Higaonna: Not only that, it also means that before the blow arrives you must read it and curb it. In this way we can take hold of the opponent’s arm and push him back. If this is done after the



opponent has used force, the result is a clash of forces. We must lessen the blow before force has been applied. The last time also, Master, you said that a difference with Japanese Karate lies in the fact that in the latter, once we have blocked, we let go of the opponent. Higaonna: This is true. If we push before the blow arrives, the distance between you and your adversary is reduced. This is why the most effective blows are the short ones. In order for them to contain energy our breathing needs to be correct. In present day Karate, which has now been transformed into a sport, we strike and retract our hand quickly, and therefore the distance between us and our adversary returns to the original one.

Higaonna: As Master Takamiyagi has already said in our discussion [ed: this is a reference to a different chapter in the book], the Masters of old used to teach that once we had blocked we had to pull and get in closer. This, in Okinawa, is called “Kakie”. These days nobody even knows how to write that [laughs]. But also in China this technique was expressed by a sound like “kaki”. And once you had gotten closer, you followed on with a technique called “Kou” (leaning). By “Kou” we mean close physical contact, isn’t that the case? The hand that takes hold pulls forcefully and the distance between us and our adversary, instead of not changing, is actually reduced! Higaonna: Exactly. By blocking in this way, we pull the opponent and we attack by following the arm. And this is done at great speed, like a whip. If we follow the arm, it doesn’t matter how our opponent moves, we will find him. In this way, we can attack like this [he strikes the opponent’s neck with a nukite].

I understand. And this too is based on the theories present in the Chinese Quan Fa, correct? And all of this is what in Okinawa is called “Muchimi”? Higaonna: Exactly, it is “Muchimi”. Even the “Sanchin”, when performed in front of a Chinese person, is recognised as “Sanchen”. Apart from Tensho and the Gekisai, which are kata that were invented in Japan, we’re talking about forms that originated in China. Although it is said that Kururunfa is written in characters that are very Japanese. I believe that at the basis of Karate not only will you will find China but all of South-east Asia. I say this because there exist techniques in Karate that cannot be found in China. And to get back to those roots is the objective that I have given myself for the future [laughs]. Sanchin With regard to “Sanchin”, there are two of them, the original one by Master Kanryo Higaonna and that of Master Chojun Miyagi, correct? Higaonna: The “Sanchin” brought by Master Kanryo from China calls for three steps forward, one



rotation and another three steps going forward. Master Chojun, on the other hand, maintained that it was natural for people to move forward, but not that they go backward. And he said it is by acting in accordance with this that wrong ideas are eliminated. Whether we are going forward or backward, we must apply the same energy. When we go backward we must put our weight on our heels. Are we allowed to lift our heels? Higaonna: No. We must go backward by sliding in suri ashi. And neither must we lift our feet when we’re going forward. Everything is based on suri ashi. Nevertheless, Master Chojun taught the “Sanchin” during which one went backward after the war. From 1945 onwards. Actually, from 1947, if I’m not mistaken. In Japan the “Sanchin” is carried out by going backward after having turned. Higaonna: The original “Sanchin” is the one passed on by Master Kanryo. In those days it was carried out with open hands. In 1905, having been hired as officials at the Secondary School of Commerce, Anko Itosu and Master Kanryo were called upon to teach Karate to the students: it was then that Itosu, as a promoter of a Karate schooling, used closed fists. Master Kanryo used nukite, given that it is faster and more realistic from a combat point of view. But given that it was dangerous, Master Itosu applied the closed fist. Master Kanryo was upset by this and got drunk! [laughs]

There was talk at the previous meeting of the intention to “hide” [ed: hide true techniques]... Higaonna: Master Kanryo suggested hiding them, not showing them.



Perhaps he meant to keep them hidden as a last resource? Higaonna: That’s it exactly. In the old days one trained by reinforcing the nukite. It’s faster and allows you reach your adversary sooner, given that it’s also longer. Or rather, that the reach of one’s fingers is longer? Higaonna: Yes. Also in China they practice the nukite in training to strengthen it. Ah yes... Just like with the “Iron Hand” where we strike the sand with the tips of our fingers and other such conditioning techniques! From a beginner’s point of view, the nukite could be considered more dangerous, given that we try to strike by piercing or cutting with our fingers, but it should be practiced until there’s no longer any risk, correct? Higaonna: That’s right. This is why we strengthen our fingers by doing push-ups on them and similar exercises. Are we talking about conditioning? Higaonna: Yes. A complete and thorough drill. One by one. And given that Master Chojun was well-off, he would also drill at home. What has the fact that he was well-off got to do with anything? [laughs] Higaonna: Well, it meant that he has the opportunity to do it. He could dedicate a lot of time to strengthening himself each day. Master Chojun worked in a bank for a year at the age of 19, but otherwise he would train from morning to night. He liked to practice. He spent his youth fighting and got a bad reputation, but when he discovered practice he calmed down quite a bit, and gave himself totally to it. Master Kanryo Higaonna, on the other hand, was poor, and so he would invite him to his house where they would practice in the tatami room [ed: in Japanese houses there are always at least one or two rooms that have bamboo tatami on the floor. These rooms are normally kept for ceremonial purposes, or for sleeping in]. And so the tatami would get ripped up every time! [laughs]



That was because they would do suri ashi on the tatami while training! [laughs] Higaonna: That’s right. You move with the soles of your feet held firmly to the ground, as if they were magnetically pulled towards it. When we work on body conditioning, we check our posture by holding our heels. This is how we make sure that our concentration is fully active right down to our heels. Master Kanryo was able to measure a person’s health by simply touching his heels and then measuring his pulse. He would say “Your feet are tired. You were up late last night!”, and then “Today we’ll go easy”!” (laughs) Even so, people still often ended up fainting from practicing Sanchin over and over again without a rest in a closed room.

Is it really necessary to go to such lengths to learn what is required? Higaonna: He used to say “Strike again!” and he would throw a punch; and then he’d repeat “Strike again!”, “Another time!” And they would go on and on repeating like this. So basically all they did was repeat Sanchin over and over again! Higaonna: Exactly. They didn’t train like we do now, instead they would constantly repeat the same thing. Apparently, [Miyagi] would get to the stage where he’d pass out from tiredness! And Master Kanryo would get him up again, by throwing water on him.

I can well believe that! The exertion of contracting his body while concentrating on his breathing... Higaonna: Yes indeed. He was totally concentrated. The mental tiredness was even greater than the physical one. Brain and concentration. He was using his mental and physical energies at the same time. He didn’t feel physical tiredness ( Miyagi in those days) as he was still young. Despite this, it was said that he passed out many times. One time there was even a man who died from overtiredness. He was a poor man, and couldn’t feed himself properly. In such a state he practiced Sanchin all day long in that little enclosed room. This was never made public, but deaths have happened. The teaching methods and the tradition Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu, according to some, were originally inspired from the same Chinese Quan Fa, or even two techniques from the same tradition. Higaonna: Yes, that’s possible. In any case, of the two, Goju Ryu is in a certain sense the more austere, and from a theoretical point of view the one that seems simpler. Uechi Ryu seems to preserve a deeper imprint of the original Quan Fa.



Higaonna: Absolutely. In my opinion, Uechi Ryu follows Quan Fa as it once was. There are forms of tigers and other animals, and techniques such as Rakanken and Tsuruken. True. There are animal forms like the tiger, the dragon, the heron and others, that appear just as they are. You can also find forms in Goju Ryu and Shorin Ryu such as the heron and the tiger, but they’re not as evident as in Uechi Ryu.

Higaonna: They are hidden. As they say, they hide their claws. In ancient times, techniques of this kind were passed on. These days, however, the fervour to hide them has transformed the kata (laughs regretfully). Just look at our training, for example that of “mawashiuke”: at the beginning it is practiced with wider movements. When we have learned it well, in real combat it is used in the form of a tiger, rotating our hands in a more reduced and incisive way. As a training method, we say that it’s like sharpening a pencil. Initially we create the form with wide strokes, and then curb the corners and refine the details until we get a result that’s quite beautiful. And the person who established that method of teaching was... Higaonna: ...Master Miyagi Chojun.

Goju Ryu was the first school to receive its own denomination in Japan: apart from its name, the basis for the teaching methods of modern Goju Ryu were also laid down by Master Chojun, isn’t that right? Higaonna: Exactly. It was Master Chojun who established a teaching tradition. First with the two “Gekisai ichi” and “ni”, and then “Sanchin”. Before the war, All of the masters only practiced Sanchin. Then they trained with each other and they learned many things. This is why differences were gradually created as the teaching was transmitted from person to person. Just like in the game Chinese Whispers! (laughs) Higaonna: That’s right. Just like in the game Chinese Whispers! (laughs) The kata and the competitions Having listened to what has been said up to now, what comes to mind is that behind something that seems simple is hidden something which is much deeper: in Japan, the Masters that teach who fully understand this are few, would you agree? Higaonna: Well, they are few... And what is more, such concepts are not disseminated, given that generally all the concentration is on competitiveness. There’s nothing wrong with dedication to competitions, but let’s remember that Karate means training until death. As Master Chojun used to say, once upon a time we trained to defend our lives. And we should also train to surpass ourselves. This, he used to say, is the real Karate. “Karate is based on not hitting or being hit”, he would say. It means that avoiding combat is inherently linked to peace. We also have to remain humble. If we are about to use a force of 10, we should reduce it to 5. We should not want to fight. If we are humble, the adversaries lose the will to attack. And so it was after Master Chojun that we went from “bujutsu” Higaonna: That is correct. Master Chojun Miyagi didn’t use to talk of “Karate”. He called it “Ti”, or



“Bu”. He would say “Te is this, Bu is this”... It wasn’t even even necessary to say “Goju Ryu”. He said to use it only when someone asked for it.

BU TE You were never supposed to say that you practiced Karate. You were not supposed to show it. The only important thing was training. It was not something to boast about: he would constantly repeat this. Master Chojun, when faced with a drunk, would steer well clear of him. So as not to get involved in something? Higaonna: He was afraid. Not of his adversary, but of the possibility that he might use some technique or other without realising it. After the war, among the ruins, there were a lot of thieves. This is why he used to always carry some change with him. Whenever he came up against a thieve, he would give the money to them. Was he really against fighting to such an extent? Higaonna: A policeman once asked him why he behaved like that, and he replied that the man was doing something wrong, but in this way the situation was resolved without problems. Another time, in a US military area there were a lot of different foodstuffs which hadn’t been stored away, and everybody was going there to steal them. Even the police. And they even claimed not to be thieves! And when they told Master Miyagi to go to, he replied that the mountains were full of food, and that whoever practiced “Bu” had to behave well. No matter how hungry you were, there was no need, he said, to steal the food of others. He must have been an exceptional person! Higaonna: He maintained that everybody, sooner or later, is put to the test. And that is precisely the moment in which whoever practices Karate must reflect and overcome the problem by using their intelligence. This cannot be traded for money or material goods. The Master taught without charge. But if one of his students brought him tuition money, he would ask him “So you decide how much then, do you?” [laughs] And yet he said that he did not want money! [laughs] Higaonna: Yes. He had reached such heights in the practice of Bu! This is why he never really demonstrated the kata much in Japan. But that didn’t mean that he didn’t want to bring Karate to Japan or teach it there, did it? Higaonna: No, it wasn’t for this reason! Given that in Japan there already existed mental aptitudes and tendencies linked to bushido, he



probably believed that once a kata had been thought to someone, that person should then practice it on his own. Okinawa, on the other hand, was full of lazy people [laughs], and he would teach people without even trying to get them to train. In this sense, he was an excellent teacher in Okinawa. This is why, in my opinion, only the bare necessities were passed on also in Japan.

Master Miyagi with Ritsumei-kan University students It was just that in Japan Karate concentrated on the competitive aspect. Many teachers in Japan say that their kata are for the competitions, or for obtaining dan [laughs]. Nowadays the kumite is what people concentrate on. Of course, there are also those who still concentrate on the kata. Besides, speaking of Shotokan, there is also a Shotokan that, based on the figure of Sensei Nakayama has distinguished itself both for the kata and the kumite and is a fantastic school. This is because there are also great teachers who emerge for the kata and the kumite and the competitions. Higaonna: Exactly. There are many exceptional individuals. Even among the teachers there are those such as Kanazawa of Shotokan and Maeda of Wadoryu who have understood the essential nature of the kata and have applied this to competitions. Higaonna: Yes indeed, there are people who, while teaching methods for winning competitions, nonetheless deeply respect tradition. A Karate that is purely competitive can only be practiced up to a certain age, in my opinion. The point, however, is that Karate is in essence a challenge to oneself. I think that it is a good thing that children take part in competitions. It stimulates them to set objectives for themselves. And when the competitions are over, that is the time for personal training. In Okinawa too there are kids that win highschool competitions without knowing how to do the kata. It’s vital that we also teach the traditional aspects. I once said that this will be the fundamental point for the future. In Japan there are even those who maintain that the kata are pointless... Higaonna: This is because they have never really experienced what kata are. I am still no expert, but if I try to do a kata to the absolute best of my ability, I realise that for each technique, and even for each position, there emerge mental, physical, medical, technical aspects and so many more besides. It doesn’t matter if kata have a point or not: the point is that when it comes to strengthening oneself it is difficult to create the correct force, whereas if we discover rites that help us to move normally, it can be created. So we’re talking about adapting our bodies so that we can utilise the techniques! Higaonna: That’s it exactly. And depending on how we communicate this, even if it isn’t easily seen we do strengthen both our minds and our bodies. Those who hold the opinion that the kata are pointless say that they are a simulation of combat. Higaonna: The blows are carried out the same way, whether we are in a confined area or an open one, on sand or on a mountain, in a bright place or in a dark one, the positions and the hand techniques, but also our mental perceptions must function well. Even our line of vision, although it may seem to be



fixed straight ahead of us, must be aware of what’s going on in all directions. All of this can be developed through daily training of the kata. Training like this on our own is hard going! If we train every day for an hour and a half by repeating “Gekisai” 100 times, it is really tough! Needless to say, the next days our muscles are full of aches and pains. Every technique must be undergone decisively. This is why it becomes a challenge to oneself. When I was young I was good at gymnastics, but I didn’t know how to breathe or how to use the techniques. Bit by bit I learned how it was done. Through repetition, right? Higaonna: Yes. Training through repetition is absolutely vital. Once, in Europe, I made a group throw 1000 tsuki while in shikodachi. They were pouring with sweat. It was a training session that consisted of nothing other than being in shikodachi and throwing punches.

And what did these European students say? Higaonna: “Great!” [laughs] And I replied “Yes. Simple is great. Karate is simple!” [laughs] At the end of the day, a training session like that is really tough, but it serves to develop a form of trust in terms of real sensations and sensations of growth. This is why I always say that we must have faith in ourselves. And also in those that are teaching us. And also, if we push ourselves we are certain to fulfil our objectives. If we’re told to practice 100 times, initially we’re bound to reply that we cannot do it. But if we train every day, sooner or later we will be able to practice 100 times. There are also times when I learn from my students. When I see a student who is moving well, I tell him to repeat the exercise and I realise something [laughs]. And often it happens that while I’m teaching I learn something as well. And at those moments I am happy

to practice Karate, and happy that we never really finish studying. And this happens more with the kata than with kumite. Another important aspect of the kata is that they have a story to tell. They came about as a collection of techniques carried out by masters that used them in order to survive. This is why they contain hidden meanings. They were not merely created as a form of exercise. We’re dealing with collections of techniques used in real combat. Obviously, changes have occurred. But Master Miyagi used to say that their essence had not changed. Even if he also said that they should be kept hidden. The other day Master Shimabukuro stated that: “The techniques are changeable. Even the kihon (the basis, ed.) contained in the kats, once it has been fully learned, can be applied in many different ways depending on the circumstances. Whether or not the kata are useful, whether or not they are applicable – this is an extremely superficial way of looking at things”. Higaonna: You’re absolutely right! The internal forms in the kata are basic forms containing specific techniques, but they are not used as they are presented. In my dojo we have subdivided the kata: there are the bunkai of the kihon, the traditional bunkai, the applicative bunkai. It depends on the level of the person who is learning. And this is because the techniques change depending on the adversary. They even change depending on whether the adversary is large or small. So we can’t simply say things like “this technique is used in this way”. It wouldn’t make sense.



Doing chuuraku The chat the other day also brought up gamaku and chinkuchi, and I would like to ask you a few questions about these. At the time you, Master, didn’t say anything… Higaonna: Master Chojun used to teach in dialect. “Put some chinkuchi into it!”, “More gamaku!”, “Give me more kushi!” and so on. Ah, so even Master Chojun used to say “Put chinkuchi into it!”? Higaonna: Well... he wouldn’t say it often, given that it was so obvious. Just to the beginners, he would say to use gamaku. There are those who, when they contract their bodies in Sanchin, do not rotate their hips as they punch. In these cases he would say to use more gamaku. With regard to those who punched by only using their arms, did he mean for them to rotate their hips more? Higaonna: Yes. To use chinkuchi, to use kushi (hips – koshi in Japanese, ed.), to use gamaku when we punch. But this all goes without saying. Apart from chinkuchi and the hips, he would only say to use more gamaku to absolute beginners. The thing that Master Chojun repeated the most was “Do chuuraku!”, which in a certain sense meant to move in an elegant way. If the movements and the kata are not elegant, he would say, we do not create “bu”. Elegant movement is certainly the ideal, right? Higaonna: Absolutely. Initially we can be a bit stiff in our movements, but we gradually obtain graceful movement. He’d also say “Give it chinkuchi, chiruchanchantoshii!”. “Chiru” means the muscles and the tendons, whereas “chan” means movement. So this all means that our bodies create power and velocity through our muscles and our joints. Master Chojun never used to teach from one fixed position. He observed everything, from your gaze to your movements. And he used to teach in dialect... Higaonna: Yes. Even for the feet, he would say that we should “Muchite”, ... By “muchite” did he mean to move them in a decisive way? Higaonna: It probably meant that if you were approaching an adversary, you should stand on his foot to stop his movement. This is the basic rule. After you have kicked, you trod on the adversary’s foot with a large step. You block their movement by standing on their foot and you close your hand in kakete. Of course, there’s a reason why Goju Ryu is known as close contact combat!



Martial Valour In Japan there are many who question your martial valour, Master. When you built your dojo in Yoyogi, is it true that many came for a dojo yaburi (ed: a practice that means “knock down the dojo”. The Master of a dojo is challenged, and if you beat him, you take control of that dojo by depriving it of its very basis, which will cause its closure given the dishonour that its defeated Master has suffered. This practice is now considered illegal but apparently has not totally disappeared.) only to leave in an ambulance? Higaonna: No, not at all! (laughs) Nothing as spectacular as that ever happened! You know, Yoyogi was near Kamiya, and every now and again someone who practiced Taikiken would come to me to me to ask if we could train together. And so, when I was very young, on occasion things might have gotten a little out of hand...

Master, that is what people call a “dojo yaburi”... (laughs). And the story of the ambulance? Higaonna: No, no. They all went away on their own two feet. (laughs) Only once did it happen that one day Master Ken'ichi Sawai came by... Ooh! Higaonna: I was wondering what he could possibly want from me, and went outside. He bowed his head and said “I am sorry for what my students did the other day”. This made me think that he was a truly great Master! Ooh! So even the Taikiken, renowned for being a contact school, understood that your school was a serious business! Higaonna: Ah, who knows! (laughs)


sensei higaonna interview

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