ROYAL COMMISSION INTO WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY CORRUPT OR CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY WESTERN AUSTRALIAN POLICE OFFICERS COMMISSIONER: G.A. Kennedy AO QC Held at Perth on the 23rd day of January, 2003 Counsel Assisting Mr K. Pettit SC Copyright in this document is reserved to the Crown in right of the State of Western Australia. Reproduction of this document (or part thereof, in any format) except with the prior written consent of the Attorney General is prohibited. .23/01/2003 6375

D1/4 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pettit? MR PETTIT: Commissioner, this segment of the Royal Commission inquiry continues today and tomorrow with further evidence basically concerning police tactics during interrogation of suspects and witnesses. The Royal Commission heard evidence last evening from Mr Arran Reynolds that he was subjected to, among other things, electric shocks during questioning. Further evidence will be led today on that particular matter. A third incident will also be examined today. It involves one Philip John Stiggants, who will say that during police interrogation of him he was subjected to electric shocks among other things. It will be necessary, Commissioner, to lead evidence from Mr Stiggants and from other civilians today with a view to summonsing police later. At the moment adverse mention notices have been sent out and I think we have today some representation for officers concerned. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, Mr Hall? MR HALL: Yes, sir, I would seek leave to appear for David Higgs. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Pettit, is there any difficulty with this representation? MR PETTIT: No, there's not, Commissioner. They are two separate matters. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Yes, well, leave will be granted, Mr Hall. Mr Crispe? MR CRISPE: I seek leave to appear on behalf of Ronald Henry Fyneman. COMMISSIONER: Yes, that will be granted. MR PETTIT: I will proceed to the first witness, Commissioner, which is Dawn Whyman. DAWN WHYMAN called: COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, please? MS WHYMAN: Dawn Whyman. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? .23/01/2003 6376

D1/4 POLICE MS WHYMAN: No. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If you would take the Bible and read the oath out aloud, please. DAWN WHYMAN sworn: EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Ms Whyman, your full name is Dawn Whyman, is it? ---Yes. You don't have a middle name?---No. And I think your date of birth is the 21st of January 1966? ---Yes. We are concerned today, Ms Whyman, with events in 1991. Did you know an Arran Reynolds - - ?---Yes, I did. - - in that period?---Yes. And how did you know him?---He was my boyfriend. Were you living together?---Yes, we were. Where were you living? What suburb?---Malaga. Were you and Mr Reynolds living together at the time - - - .23/01/2003 6377

D2/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - at the time he committed an armed robbery?---Yes. Did you know anything about that robbery before it occurred?---No. When was the first you knew about it?---When he was arrested. Now, at the time he was arrested you were still living in Malaga, were you?---Yes. Was there a time when police came to your house and you were home?---Yes, there was. Why did police attend? Do you know?---I can't really remember, but I assume they were looking for him. In any event, I think you came to know that Mr Reynolds had been arrested?---Yes. Do you remember how you came by that information?---No. I think it was a phone call. From whom?---Well, it must have been him. I can't really remember. It's so long ago. Incidentally, I've misled you earlier. The relevant date is 1988, not 91. Now, having learnt that Mr Reynolds had been arrested, did you do something?---I went up to the police station. Where was that?---In Wanneroo. Do you remember what time of day it was?---It was in the evening. Did you go on your own or with anybody - - with another person?---A friend came with me. She was actually living with us at the time; (...name suppressed...). (...name suppressed...)?---Yep. Do you remember her other name?---(...name suppressed...). And when you arrived at Wanneroo, did you see Mr Reynolds?---Yes. Whereabouts did you see him?---He was in a room. In what building?---In the police station. .23/01/2003 WHYMAN, D. XN 6378

D2/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: And did he tell you anything about what had happened to him that day?---Yeah. What did he say?---He said that they had electrocuted him. Did he tell you anything else?---He probably did but I can't remember. That's the thing which stays in your memory, is it?---Yeah. Did he show you anything?---Yes. Tell us what he showed you?---He had marks on his chest. Do you remember what they looked like?---Yes. They were lines coming - - yeah, lines coming down this way. What colour were they?---They were red. Do you remember how many such marks?---From memory, I'm pretty sure there was three on each side. COMMISSIONER: It was really in a V shape, you're demonstrating?---It sort of came down like three lines. Yes. Thank you. MR PETTIT: And each of these three lines, how long would you say they were?---Probably about that long. About 6, 8 centimetres?---Yeah. And how wide? About 1 centimetre?---1 centimetre. Now, you say they were on his chest. Did you see any marks anywhere else?---No, not that I can remember. Can you tell us anything about Mr Reynolds' demeanour? Was he calm when he was telling you this?---No. He was - - to me, he appeared to be very frightened. What was it that he did that gave you that impression?---I can remember him saying that they - - well, he told me that they'd electrocuted him. He was yelling and he said that they were - - he actually called - - he said "The dogs are trying to kill me" or "to hurt me." .23/01/2003 WHYMAN, D. XN 6379

D3/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Do you know whether there was any mention between you and Mr Reynolds of obtaining advice from a lawyer?---Yeah. He said he wanted a lawyer and he wanted a doctor. Do you know whether a doctor was obtained?---No, I don't think so. I don't think one was. Thank you. That's all, thanks. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Hall, do you have any questions? MR HALL: No, thank you, sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALL MR CRISPE: No, sir. Not relevant. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CRISPE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, thank you, Mr Crispe. (TO WITNESS): Thank you very much. You're discharged from any further responsibility under the summons. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: I call Philip John Stiggants. COMMISSIONER: Can I have your full name, please, Mr Stiggants? MR STIGGANTS: Philip John Stiggants. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? MR STIGGANTS: No. COMMISSIONER: If you'd take the Bible and read out the oath aloud, please. PHILIP JOHN STIGGANTS sworn: COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Sit down, please. EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Mr Stiggants, you're a serving prisoner at the moment?---Yes. And I think you're at Karnet?---Yes. Your date of birth is the 9th of January 1963?---Yes. .23/01/2003 WHYMAN, D. XN; STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6380

D3/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: And you are serving a sentence in respect of several offences, I think, including burglary, fraud and receiving?---Yep. Last week I think you were approached by Royal Commission officers?---That's correct. And is that the first you knew about a Royal Commission interest in the matter?---Yes. Did you, prior to that, make any attempt to contact the Royal Commission?---No. Now, these events - the events we're interested in - occurred in March of 1991. At that time I think you were living in your own house?---That's correct. And that was in - - was it in Morley?---Collier Road, Embleton. Embleton. The house, as we understand it, was searched by police a couple of times; once on the 28th of February and again on the 5th of March. Do you recall those searches, or were you present for either of them?---I don't think I was there for the last one. Now, as at the 5th of March I think you were aware that police were looking for you?---Yes. And accordingly you were on the run, so to speak, from the police?---Dodging them. Dodging them, yes. On the occasion of that second search, have you subsequently learnt that a friend of yours was present?---Yes. And that was Mr Lancashire?---On that search? Yes?---I think it was Glen Ashby?. Ashby. Police did find you a little while later. Do you recall that occasion?---Yes. Where were you?---At Rose Hanna's place in Dianella. How did it come about that you were at those premises?---I was just staying at Rose's. The police arrived. Did you become aware that they were in the yard?---Yes. And what did you do?---Hid in the wardrobe. Police gained entrance to the house and I think searched - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6381

D4/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - and I think searched it. Can you tell us what happened after that?---I don't know. The detectives just grabbed me and dragged me out the door. Didn't really see much that went on after that. Did anything happen to you when police found you in the wardrobe?---Yeah, they were just excited that they've caught me, and dragged me out and threw me in the car and the one that arrested me at the time hit me a few times, bashed me. Where did that happen?---On Rose's bed. Were you handcuffed?---Yes. Do you recall which officers found you?---Morley CIB. Yes?---But I can only remember three - - three of their names, I think. Who were they?---Detective Hicks, Detective Allen, and Les Molyneaux, but I think he was a sergeant. But I think there was an O'Reilly working there, but I can't remember. Phil O'Reilly or someone. When you were found by police, it was in a bedroom, was it?---Yes. Did you resist arrest?---No. Do you recall which officer hit you?---Oh, if I saw his face probably again, yeah, but I can't - - Can't put a name to it?---No. Was it one of the officers you've already mentioned?---No, it was - - Hicks, Allen or Molyneaux?---They all come running in the room when I got arrested, anyway. They all flew in there, so it all sort of happened - - look, I think it was one of the O'Reillys, but I can't remember. You can't quote me on that. Now, you were taken from the house, I think, to somewhere else?---Morley CIB. And taken to - - do you recall the premises at Morley CIB?---Yeah, sort of. Yeah. Is that an old house?---It was an old building at the time. I don't know if it was an old house, but it was an old establishment, yeah. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6382

D4/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: I presume you were taken to a room and you were asked questions?---I was taken into a room and strip-searched and left there for about 15 minutes. When you say "strip-searched", were you asked to take your clothes off?---Well, I was still handcuffed, so I didn't actually take my clothes off, did I? Somebody did that for you?---Yes. Do you remember who?---No. And were you in fact searched?---Well, I guess so. They left me like that, so - - I didn't have anything on. Nothing at all?---Nothing. My pants were down to my ankles, or something. And you were left in a room on your own in that stage?---Yeah. For how long?---Oh, I don't know, 15 minutes maybe. And still handcuffed?---Yeah. Were the handcuffs comfortably on your wrists?---No, I think my hands started turning blue. Did you - -?---When they eventually took them off, I had big rings around here, around my arm - - around my wrists. Did you complain about that?---Yes, but they didn't really give a stuff. Mm. How many times did you complain? Just the once?---No, quite a few - - I can't remember. A few times, though. Now, we'll try and get the events of the afternoon in their proper sequence. Can you recall the first thing that happened - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6383

D5/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - the first thing that happened when officers returned to the room?---I don't want to have to do this. Well, perhaps we'll worry about that afterwards. Perhaps we'll go to the events themselves and not worry about the sequence. Can you tell us what happened to you that afternoon?---One of them just, sort of, walked in and, sort of, said that - - I don't think Les Molyneux was there that day and Allen, or the big bloke, just turned around and said basically that he'd got me now and my mate, or friend, or whoever he was referring to, the sergeant, wasn't there so they could do basically whatever they wanted, and still had me handcuffed, and one of them punched my ribs - - punched my ribs in, tied a plastic bag over my head with masking tape, got the electric prodder out, pointed a gun at my head. Just basically intimidated me. COMMISSIONER: How many of the officers were there at that time?---Probably five. Four or five. MR PETTIT: When you said earlier that one of them had said your mate was not there who did you take that to be a reference to?---Les Molyneux. Was he in fact a friend of yours?---No. Did you have previous dealings with him?---Yeah, I had. And you had got on all right with Mr Molyneux, had you? ---Well, yeah, he seemed all right to me. I think he was - - my picture was that he was stuck. Mm hm. Now I want to deal firstly with - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6384

D6/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - deal firstly with - - you said you were punched in the ribs. Do you remember which officer did that?---Yeah, the tall one with short hair. You don't recall his name?---No. Anything else about him? Was he Australian?---Yeah. No, I don't - - Can you say how many times he hit you?---Oh, a - - no, I can't. A few. Would it be more or less than four?---No, I was hit more than four times. Would it be more or less than 10?---Probably less than 10, I suppose. Yes. Whereabouts did he punch you?---Oh, in the ribs, in the head, in the arm, in the shoulder. Did you suffer any injury as a result of that?---Now? No, back then?---Yeah. I had broken ribs. The plastic bag - - you said that a bag was put on your head?---It was a plastic garbage bag and they just put it over my head and put masking tape around it. Did the masking tape go around the head or around the neck, the shoulders?---I - - I know it was tied on with masking tape. I just - - I can't remember. I freaked out at that time. Were there any holes in this bag for you to breathe?---Well, I didn't study the bag, but it was a black garbage bag and they shoved it over my head and then wrapped masking tape around it, and I freaked out at that time. What did you do?---Oh, panicked, I suppose. Did you say anything, or try to say anything?---Oh, I was probably shouting something, yes. How long did the bag stay on your head?---I can't - - A few seconds, couple of minutes, longer?---Look, I can't really answer that because it's - - I mean, in that situation, what might be 15 - - what might be a minute, I don't know. I can't answer it. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6385

D6/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Do you recall - -?---It was a while. I just - - no, I can't answer it. I'm not - - Do you recall whether your breathing was affected by the bag?---I can't answer that either, because I was just - - I was panicking. I was just freaking out, I suppose. Do you remember how you were dressed at this time?---With handcuffs on and my pants still down around my ankles. Otherwise, naked?---Yep. Do you recall whether anything was done to you while the bag was on your head?---No, I just - - yeah, I can't remember; like, not right at that precise moment anyway. I take it - - did you remove the bag or did somebody else remove the bag?---Oh, one of them had to take it off. I was still handcuffed. And you mentioned also an electric shock of some sort. Do you know how that was administered?---That detective came out of the office with a cow prodder and prodded me a few times with it. Do you know which officer that was?---The tallish guy with light hair. The same fellow you mentioned earlier?---No. One was shorter and dumpier and the other one was tall. I think it was Allen, but I'm not sure. I can't - - The officer who had the cattle prod, was he Australian?---No. Do you know - -?---No. I think he was English, but I'm not sure. He could be Scottish too, or Welsh, or something. How many times was this cattle prod applied to your body?---I really can't remember. Like I said, I was - - I was really sort of freaking out at this time for what I was going through and I just - - I know it was used and he walked out with it, and it - - I mean, something like that, I don't know if you can remember it really clearly, but you remember what happens - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6386

D7/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - you remember what happens. MR PETTIT: Yes?---I mean, if you mention times and that, you can't put times on it. Now, you say that you saw a particular officer with this cattle prod?---Yeah. Can we assume, then, that you weren't cattle-prodded at the time you had the bag on your head?---No, it was - - I think that happened first, and then I still didn't tell them what they wanted to know, and then they tied the bag on my head, and I can't quote that they used the cattle prod right at that time because I get - - what's it called? I don't know. I was just panicking. I can't - - I think they did use it at that time. Look, I just freaked out. I just - - I can't really put it all in an order. Yes. No, I understand. Now, can you tell us where on your body this cattle prod was used?---Oh, no, not really. I mean, I was on the floor at the time. By this time I was on the floor. Can you remember, was it used on your chest, on your back, on your arms?---Look, I can't - - what's an electric shock, it goes through your whole body, so you can't - - how can you pinpoint exactly where it is? Can you tell us what it felt like?---Well, an electric shock. It was just like any other electric shock, was it?---Well, it's - - I suppose it'd be based on putting your finger in a power socket. I mean, it's an electric boot. They use them on huge cows, so they don't give out a - - Not a tingle?---No. Again, how were you dressed at the time?---Naked. So, just to clear that point up, you were asked to take your clothes off almost as soon as you arrived?---One of them walked in and said, "Have you searched him? Have you strip-searched him?" and one of them said, "Well, you'd better do it." So they took my clothes - - well, pulled my clothes off, left them down at my ankles and threw me back on a chair. And you - -?---And - - well, I couldn't really pull my pants up with my hands behind my back, could I? So you stayed that way for a considerable period during the afternoon, did you?---Probably a couple of hours I suppose, yeah. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6387

D7/2 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Your hands were handcuffed behind your back, were they?---Yes. MR PETTIT: I know this is difficult for you to remember, but at the time the electric shocks were administered, were you sitting, standing, lying?---Lying down on the floor, I think. Can you say how many officers were present while that happened?---It was still the same cops. I mean, no one new sort of came in. No one old came in. It was still basically those five, what I can remember. Mm hm. Now, there was one officer giving you these electric shocks; can you recall what the other officers were doing at the time?---Just joining in the fun, I think. And what do you mean by that, joining in the fun?---Well, they seemed to be enjoying themselves. What were they doing that gave you that impression?---Oh, well, they didn't stop him, did they? Was anything said? Did you hear anything said?---I can't remember. Can't remember. Do you remember whether later you noticed any marks on your body?---Yeah, I had heaps of marks on my body. I had black eyes, bruises, broken ribs. Judith Fordham, who was my lawyer at the time, took photos, but - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6388

D8/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - took photos, but I don't know where the photos are now. MR PETTIT: Were there any marks on your body which you thought might have been the result of the electric shocks?---Oh, look, I - - I - - oh, I didn't really - - I had bruises all over me. I literally had bruises all over me. You can't now recall whether any particular marks you attributed to the electric shocks?---I don't think I really - - I mean, I was too sore. I was probably not in a real good frame of mind. Judith might be able to answer that question, or Rose, I don't know. I just - - I really freaked out at that time. Were you hit or kicked in any other manner during the afternoon?---Yes. Tell us about that?---Oh, must we? Yes, I'm afraid so?---Oh, God. One of them kicked me in the nuts, but I don't know which one it was, while I was down on the ground. Was there an incident on the day involving either a torch or a baton?---Yes. I'm afraid you're going to have to tell us about it, Mr Stiggants?---I'm not sure if it was a torch or baton, but something got shoved up my backside, anyway. Where were you at the time?---On the floor. And you're not sure what it was that was used?---I can just remember it was a black thing. It sort of stuck in my mind to be a torch, but it may have been a baton. How many times was that done?---Once. Was anything said at the time it was done?---Nup. Do you recall what officer did that?---No. Did the - whatever it was, actually enter your anus?---Yes. And are you able to say how long that went on for?---Oh, it was just a quick thing. What; in and then removed?---Oh, God. Yes. Almost in the one motion?---Oh, yeah; I suppose. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6389

D8/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: During the afternoon was there a point at which officers were obliged to take you to the toilet?---Oh, for fuck's sake. It's important - - ?---Yes. - - Mr Stiggants, that we get the details of the afternoon. And can you tell us how that came about?---Oh, because I shat myself. That's through fear?---Oh, probably. I don't know. What was said when that happened?---Oh, I can't remember. Was something said to you by officers about that?---Oh, look, I can't remember. Well, you do remember, Mr Stiggants, and you should tell us?---Oh, for fuck's sake. I can't remember. You were taken to the toilet when that had happened?---Yeah. I think they took the handcuffs off me at that point. Do you remember which officer took you to the toilet?---Yeah. He was the reasonable one. I actually don't think I saw him. But he was a smaller guy. You don't remember his name?---No. Anything else about him? His hair colour, or - - ?---No. I just - - I don't think he was, like, with the - - I don't think he was with the other officers at the time. Was he taller or shorter than you?---No. He was short. Shorter than me. How tall are you?---Five nine, five eight or something. Did you see any weapon produced that day?---I've thought about that. Yeah. The - - that - - oh, the one down from the sergeant - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6390

D9/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - from the sergeant pointed a gun at my head and said something to the effect that, "No one knows you're here and if I blew your brains out no one would know where you were." MR PETTIT: Do you remember the name of that officer? ---It's the same one. The tall, blond-headed bloke, and that - - he must have been the one in - - down from the sergeant that sat in the far office because all the others, sort of, followed - - followed him. I don't know - but, yeah, he pointed his gun at my head. When you came to be sentenced mention was made of you trying to harm yourself. Do you recall doing that?---I punched my fist through their window and said - - when he had the gun at my head and said, "Oh, I'll do it for you then, if you like", and once I did that they sort of eased off. What did you do? The handcuffs were obviously off at that stage. I think you've told us that in any event?---Yeah. So were you seated when the gun was pointed at your head? ---From memory I was standing up. And you, what, walked to the window?---It wasn't very far away. It was only a small room. Mm hm?---I mean, you had a table. I just walked in there and punched the window out with my fist and he said, "What did you do that for?" and I said, "I'll just slash my wrists to save you pulling your trigger." Did you attempt to dive through the window?---No. It had a grille on the other side. Can I go back, and I know this is testing your memory, to the layout of the CIB? There's a front door, is there?---No, it had a - - well, I think it was, sort of - - you came off the road, you walked in a side door. A side door?---If you turned to the left you'd go to the - - that would be Les Molyneux's office, and if you turned right you would've gone down to the other offices, and off that office was the room they had me in and the toilet was down the back there somewhere. So the officer you mentioned - the tall, blond one - - ? ---Yeah. Is he the same fellow or different from the one you said was English or Scottish or Welsh?---He had an accent of some - - he wasn't Australian but, I mean, he - - I don't know what he was. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6391

D9/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: And is he the same man that you've described as being one down from the sergeant, Molyneux?---Yeah. Do you know what made you think he was one down? You mean in seniority, do you?---Yeah. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6392

D10/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: In rank. Do you know what made you think that?---Just the way they used to talk - - talk and the way they came across. Everyone sort of followed him around. Now, after you tried to - - well, after you did break the window, you said that police went a little easier, but did you cooperate after that?---Yes. Well, before I leave it, did you in fact harm yourself in breaking the window?---No. No, not really. And after that, you cooperated with police to some extent?---A very small extent, yes. You told them about receiving some property?---Yeah. You were taken somewhere from the Morley CIB?---East Perth lock-up. Yes, before I leave that, at what stage were you able to dress again?---After they sort of terrorised me that - - like, I had my pants back and that, or I'd managed to get them up or something before they sort of - - he pointed the gun at my head. So - - oh, no, when I came back from the toilet, I suppose. All right. Now, you were taken from Morley to East Perth lock-up and charged, I think?---Yeah. Did you see a doctor that night?---I went to the - - well, the East Perth police took me to the Royal Perth Hospital. And did you there see a doctor?---Saw a doctor and a nurse, I think. And you don't recall the name of the doctor?---No. Was the doctor female or male?---I asked a female, and she may have been the doctor, I don't know, to ring someone to tell them where I was, because the police were standing there and wouldn't let me give any messages to anyone. Who did you want contacted?---Just someone, so they knew where I was. Was that done, incidentally?---Yeah, the lady did it, yeah. I think she rang my parents. Now, did someone suggest that you see a doctor? Did you suggest it?---From memory, I think the guys at East Perth saw the way I came in and they did it. They took me up there. And that's uniformed officers, is it?---Yeah. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6393

D10/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: One or two?---Oh, no, two went. And what sort of condition were you in?---Um - - I think you mentioned earlier that you had broken ribs; was that causing you any discomfort?---Yeah. Like I said, I had bruises and that all over me. But I can remember I couldn't drive a car for about 2 weeks, or a manual car, anyway. Why is that?---Because my ribs and that hurt too much. You mentioned that you had bruises around your eyes. Can you recall what was done to you, that might have caused bruising to your eyes?---Well, when they laid into me and that, I just - - I can't remember. I mean, all I can remember is I wanted to get the hell out of there and get back somewhere that was half sort of civilised, I suppose. Where did you spend that night?---The next night? No, that night, the night you were taken to the East Perth lock-up?---I come out of hospital and then I would have gone back to East Perth, I think. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6394

D11/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: On the following day, that would have been the 8th of March, did you again see the Morley detectives?---Yeah, I - - I did go back down there. Do you know why?---Oh, yeah. I do remember why. I think Rose came - - Well, first of all, did you go back to Morley voluntarily or were you taken there by police?---Um - - Well, if you can't remember - -?---No, I can't remember. All right. I want to show you a document which is - - It's item 6, Commissioner. (TO WITNESS): It's a statement of your own, Mr Stiggants. It's D1025537 dated 7 March 1991. Do you remember that statement?---No. You don't remember making it?---Not at all. It says at the end that "The statement was made of my own free will without any threats or promises being made to me." Is that true? Did you make it of your own free will?---I don't remember the statement at all. Is that your signature?---I'm not very smart and my signature probably changes every time I sign something. Can you recognise that as being your signature though?---Well, no, not really because I wouldn't cross my "t" like that, but then the "J" looks like - - Bearing in mind this is 12 years ago?---Yeah, I know. I - - honestly, I can sit here and swear that I don't remember that statement. Can I show you a second document - which is also item 6, Commissioner - dated the next day, the 8th of March 1991 and it is D1025538. See at the foot of the page, is that your signature?---Oh, I - - A better version of it is at page 5, if we can flick forward - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6395

D12/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - we can flick forward to page 5. Is that your signature?---They're all different. How can - - Yes. But surely, Mr Stiggants, you could recognise whether or not it's your signature?---I - - I don't think they are, but I don't know. I don't cross my "t"s like that. Do you recall now going back to Morley CIB on the following day - the 8th of March? If we go back to page 1, do you recall being interviewed by Detective Cox and a Detective Van Der Schoor?---Cox rings a bell, but I don't remember Van Der Schoor. And this is at 7.30 in the evening?---Was this the day after? Yes. Well, according to this document it is. My question is, do you recall this happening the following day?---Ah - - Is that you don't recall it?---Um - - It seemed to have to do with police having found an antique silver serviette? holder?---Oh - - Well, if you don't recall it, Mr Stiggants, just say so?---I don't. I just - - I don't. Now, as a result of these matters I think you were charged with several counts of receiving?---Yep. And you pleaded guilty to those?---Yes. And on the counts of receiving you were in fact guilty as charged?---No. Oh, not for the amount that I was charged with, no. None of this stuff came off my property, from memory. But you made no complaint about that in being charged. You pleaded guilty, I think?---Just pleaded guilty to it. Why did you do that?---Didn't really have a choice, did I? You were also charged with damaging public property?---Yep. And that had to do with your breaking the window?---Yes. And I think at your sentencing you made no complaint about that charge either?---No. Why not?---Well, as I said, I didn't really have - - didn't really have a choice, did we? You were advised, I think, by your lawyer that you had some options?---Yes. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6396

D12/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: And what did you do about that advice?---We decided it wasn't worthwhile. I decided it wasn't worthwhile. Can I have some transcript of the sentencing remarks shown on the screen? They're dated 16 August 1991, D1025539. Item 7, Commissioner. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6397

D13/4 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR PETTIT: And if we could have the very next page, please. (TO WITNESS): As is usual, Mr Stiggants, the judge of course proceeds on the facts which are given to her on a plea of guilty. The facts on which you were sentenced are at page 28 in the centre paragraph on that page. The judge said this: "You were severely addicted to drugs and it appears

that you were mixing with other people who were probably in a similar position. In any event, you were exchanging drugs for goods and vice versa and all the items to which I have referred have been recovered. The charge on the section 656A notice is an indication of the state of your health at the time that you were arrested. While being interviewed by detectives at the Morley CIB office you suddenly jumped up from your chair, shouted, 'I want to kill myself', and hurled yourself out of one of the office windows and in the process broke that window."

Now, is it the case that you hurled yourself out of the window?---No. Is it the case that you said, "I want to kill myself"? ---Well, yeah, I said that to save them doing it when they had a gun at my head. Is it true that you suddenly jumped up from your chair and did this?---No, I still think I was standing up. You did see Judith Fordham about this matter?---Yes. And I think she came to a house to see you?---Rose Hanna's place. Do you remember which day that was?---Well, I reckon it was the day when I got out of court. Like, when I got arrested. Judith came over basically immediately and took photos of me. Could I be excused for a moment, Commissioner. There's a document which we've just received. Well, perhaps we can all have a look at it together. It's D1025978. (TO WITNESS): Mr Stiggants, this appears to be - - can we blow that up a little? Yes, now, this appears to have the date the 8th of March 91 and the time appears to be 6.30 in the morning. Is it possible that you were taken to Royal Perth Hospital in the very early hours of the following day?---Yeah, it would've been. It would've been. Very late. I can't remember. Late, early, whatever. Can we go home now? .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6398

D14/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: Commissioner, rather than press on with this in an experimental fashion, and I've not seen this document before this instant, perhaps we could have a short adjournment while it's examined and I can cross-examine at a more efficient manner. COMMISSIONER: Well, we can take the morning adjournment now. We'll adjourn until twenty-five past eleven. AT 10.55 AM HEARING ADJOURNED .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6399

D15/3 POLICE AT 11.26 AM HEARING RESUMED: COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pettit. MR PETTIT: Could we have the document on the screen again, thank you? Mr Stiggants, this appears to be Royal Perth records of your attendance. If we could go to the bottom of the first page, it's recorded that: "Patient complains" - I presume "PC" means "Patient

complains" - "assaulted. Complaint of chest pain, left sided arm pain, painful case - -"

COMMISSIONER: "base." MR PETTIT: "- - base of spine and down right leg." A little further, it says that you stated, quote: "The police got stuck into me because I wouldn't give

them any information on another guy" - close quote. "Claims to have been beaten repeatedly around the

chest/head. Complains of the above." Was it your view that the prime reason for the assault was because you wouldn't give information about a colleague of yours or a friend of yours?---To me it was because they had sort of blown me out to be someone who I wasn't and they seemed to think that I was fencing a lot of stolen goods, but nowhere near the proportion that they would have thought so. Nowhere near it. Is it the case that some or a lot of the questioning on the day had to do with obtaining from you information about another person?---I told them where some of the stuff was, yeah, that someone had. But did they show a particular interest in information about some other person? I won't ask you to name the other person, but - -?---Yeah. Do you recall that?---Yeah, sort of. We - - yeah. If we can go to the fourth page? From this document, Mr Stiggants, what appears to have happened is that - - at the top of the page it has your name, although that's not terribly legible on the copy you have, but your address at the time - - can you read that?---185 Collier Road, Embleton. That was your address, was it?---Yes. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6400

D15/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: At the foot of the page, what appears to have happened is that police attended with you at 2.15 in the morning. I'll read it out. "Police informed of waiting time, 3 to 4 hours. Told

to take patient back to lock-up and return later if they wish. Patient condition discussed with Dr Wilks and coordinator. No move to take patient back to lock-up."

Then at 3.40 in the morning: "Awaiting review. Sleeping at present in police

custody." Then at 4.10: "S/B" - which I presume means "seen by" - "Dr

Prescott." And it looks like: "6 o'clock in the morning, to X-ray department. 6.30,

return from X-ray." I think that's a reference to giving urine 400 mils. "UA." Might be "under arrest" or - - "as above. 6.30. Discharged back into police custody."

Does that return any recollection to you of waiting for over 4 hours, or being at the hospital for over 4 hours?---Yeah. I was there for - - I was there for a while, but I didn't think it was 4 hours. Mm?---But - - I don't know. Perhaps that's explained by the reference to your sleeping - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6401

D16/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - reference to your sleeping. On that same page, a little towards the top though, there is an entry I want to ask you about. Under the heading, "Presenting complaint history and duration" it says: "Complained of pain in both arms, left ribs and lower

back." Then it says: "Injuries from a fight." Did you tell somebody that these injuries were from a fight?---Look, I can't remember unless it was how I expressed it to the nurse or whoever spoke to me at the time. Just to continue, it goes on to say: "Pain radiating down right leg. Pain radiating on

deep - - " sorry. "Pain increasing on deep inspiration. Left side injuries 4 or 5 days" -

and then something that I can't decipher. "4 to 5 hours ago", I'm sorry. "4 to 5 hours ago". Commissioner, that's all the questions. I would like to tender the five documents referred to. The witness's conviction record, which is item - - COMMISSIONER: It's 1. MR PETTIT: - - item 1. COMMISSIONER: Is there a barcode for that? MR PETTIT: Yes. It's D1025533. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, the conviction record of the witness, barcoded D1025533, will be exhibit 1120. EXHIBIT 1120 Mr Pettit DATE (Unstated) Conviction record of P.J. Stiggants barcode D1025533 MR PETTIT: Next is item 6, Commissioner, which is the statement of the witness dated 7 March, and that is barcode D1025537. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The statement of the witness dated the 7th of March 1991, barcoded D1025537, will be exhibit 1121. EXHIBIT 1121 Mr Pettit DATE 7.3.91 Statement of P.J. Stiggants barcode D1025537 .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN 6402

D16/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Also item 6, the record of interview with the witness dated 8 March 91, which is D1025538. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The record of interview of the witness dated the 8th of March 1991, barcoded D1025538, will be exhibit 1122. EXHIBIT 1122 Mr Pettit DATE 8.3.91 Record of interview with P.J. Stiggants, barcode D1025538 COMMISSIONER: The sentencing remarks of the witness dated the 6th of August 1991, barcoded D1025539, will be exhibit 1123. EXHIBIT 1123 Mr Pettit DATE 6.8.91 Sentencing remarks relating to P.J. Stiggants, barcode D1025539 MR PETTIT: Yes. And the next, thanks, Commissioner. The other court appearances by the witness. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The transcript of the portion of the hearing dated the 12th of July 1991, barcoded D1025540, will be exhibit 1124. EXHIBIT 1124 Mr Pettit DATE 12.7.91 Portion of transcript of hearing barcode D1025540 MR PETTIT: And lastly, Commissioner, the emergency department, Royal Perth Hospital notes referrable to the witness, dated 8 March 91, and the barcode for those is D1025978. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The Royal Perth Hospital notes in relation to the witness, dated the 8th of March 1991, barcoded D1025978, will be exhibit 1125. EXHIBIT 1125 Mr Pettit DATE 8.3.91 Notes from RPH relating to P.J. Stiggants, barcode D1025978 MR PETTIT: That completes the questions, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Mr Hall, do you have any questions in this matter? MR HALL: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR HALL: MR HALL: Mr Stiggants, you were taken to Royal Perth by two uniformed officers from the lock-up; is that right?---Yes. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XN XXN 6403

D16/1 POLICE MR HALL: And none of the police officers from the CIB Morley or wherever it was were there?---No. So you'd finished completely with them, and you were now in the hands of two uniformed police that you didn't know?---Well, they dropped me off at the lock-up - - Yes?--- - - and handed me over to East Perth for processing. And then went on their way?---Yeah. All right. And you felt much more comfortable in their presence than you were in the presence of the detectives?---Not particularly, no. No? Well, when you got to the Royal Perth Hospital you felt much safer - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6404

D17/4 POLICE MR HALL: - - - felt much safer?---Yes. So much so that you have no trouble whatsoever in telling - - or complaining that the police had got stuck into you? ---Well, I was trying to get a message to let someone know where I was and the nurse at the hospital, whoever I spoke to, wasn't a fool, obviously, so she presumed and saw what was going on and she rang my parents. All right. When you were examined you have said this document which you've just seen indicates that you said to them, "The police got stuck into me because I wouldn't give them any information on another guy." "Claims to have been beaten repeatedly around the

chest and head." Now, that's surely you explaining your injuries, isn't it? ---I don't remember - - I wouldn't have gone - - they've written it down. Yes, they've written down what you've said, surely?---I doubt it. I mean, I wasn't really in a capable mind - - they asked me where my pain was - - Well, you did tell them that you had been beaten repeatedly around the chest and head, didn't you?---No. So where did they - - you think they must have just got that out of the - - ?---Well, they're not fucking idiots, are they? Well, I'm putting to you that you must have told them? ---Well, I don't remember. All right? Well, you certainly didn't tell them anything about being electrocuted, did you?---No. And you didn't tell them anything about - - ?---Well, maybe they came up with their own conclusion. Go and bring the lady in and ask her. You didn't tell them anything about being electrocuted, did you?---I don't remember what I said to them. You didn't tell them anything about being electrocuted? ---I don't know what I said to them. You can't remember or you are sure?---No, I can't remember exactly what I said to them. I was dropped off at East Perth lock-up, taken up there to the hospital and they stood outside while the nurse and the doctor looked at me. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6405

D17/4 POLICE MR HALL: Okay, and you didn't tell the nurse or the doctor that you'd been sodomised with the torch?---I don't think I really had to, did I? I'm asking the questions?---They're professional people. Did you tell them - - ?---I presume they would have known. How would they know?---No, well, I didn't. You didn't. Right, so you didn't tell them about the torch or the - - ?---No, I didn't. Right, and you didn't tell them about the electrocution, did you?---I didn't tell them - - as far as I can remember - - I didn't have to tell them anything. Did you tell them about the electrocution? "Yes" or "No"? ---Why don't you ask her to come in here and find out? I'm just asking you. Just - - ?---I can't remember. You can't remember. All right, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Crispe? MR CRISPE: I wonder if the witness could be shown exhibit 1125 and, firstly, what probably is page 2. Yes, that's the case history notes from the hospital. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR CRISPE: MR CRISPE: If I can just take you to page 2 of it, if it can be shown in front of you. Just move it up a little bit. Just a bit further. Now, can you see - - I appreciate you haven't seen this document before, have you?---No. That purports to be a bit of a diagram of yourself with some markings on it. Can you see that?---Yes. All right, and obviously you agree that whilst you were at the hospital they examined your body and either you pointed out or they located marks on your upper body?---Well, I didn't have to show them. All right, so you took your coat off or your shirt off and they had a look?---All I can remember is I was laying down on the hospital bed, or on the - - with the two coppers standing outside the curtain or room or whatever it was. But you agree that as you look at that now that refreshes your memory as to where the marks were on your body?---Look, I couldn't remember. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6406

D17/4 POLICE MR CRISPE: Yes. Well, do you take issue that those marks represent the marks that were on your body when you were examined at the hospital?---But who drew it? I don't know. Well, we understand probably someone at the hospital drew it, perhaps the doctor, but - - ?---Well - - - - does it refresh your memory that they're the marks that were on your body when you were examined?---How can that tell me where the marks - - I mean, I don't know. All right?---I had bruises all over me. Well, can you - - ?---I can distinctly remember having bruises around my wrists. Right, well, they show some marks around your arms. Do you see that?---Yes. And they show distinctly some marks that appear to be on one side of your body?---Yes. Now, I wonder if we could just turn to - - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6407

D18/2 POLICE MR CRISPE: - - - we could just turn to page 3 of the report? Now, that shows some marks on your upper head, perhaps even into the hairline?---Yeah. You agree with that?---Yes. And again, does that refresh your memory as to the sorts of injuries or marks that you had on your body at the time you were examined, talking about your head?---I had bruises and cuts all over me. I wasn't really in a real good frame of mind - - We appreciate the words "all over you" is an expression, but these are markings that seem to be either in your hairline or above your eyes?---Well, I had marks on my head. Okay. Do you agree with the marks that are shown there, as being the marks that you had?---I can't remember. All right. Well, do you say there are any other marks on - -?---If the nurse had drawn it, yes, I'll say it's right. Thank you. Perhaps that can simply be switched off? (TO WITNESS): Now, can I just come back to the charges that you faced, and I think you told us you faced some charges of receiving?---Yes. And a charge of damage?---Yes. And you pleaded guilty to the charge of damage?---Yes. And I think you told us earlier in your evidence that the damage was to a window in the Morley CIB office?---That's right. And I think you might have told us earlier that you did it by way of your hand?---That's correct. The charge that you pleaded guilty to, was that on the basis that you'd attempted to throw your body through the window?---I didn't attempt to throw my body anywhere. Was it - -?---I punched my hand into the glass because I had a gun pointed at my head and I just thought I'd save his problem, after everything I'd been through. Well, the charge of damage, and I haven't got the complaint before me, but was it on the basis of you either attempting to push your head through the window or - -?---No, it wasn't. - - throw yourself through the window?---It was my hand. Did you get it? My hand. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6408

D18/2 POLICE MR CRISPE: Thank you. Did you instruct your lawyer, when you appeared in the District Court, to indicate that you wanted to kill yourself and you attempted to throw yourself through the window?---No. You heard that expression, and I've only paraphrased it, but - -?---Well, I didn't say that. Well, I think earlier, you heard counsel assisting show you a transcript of sentencing comments by a judge?---Well, maybe Judge Kennedy - - I don't know what happened. Well, I take it you instructed your lawyer to indicate how the damage had occurred - -?---Well, I think Judith and I were in a pretty bad position at the time, how to handle the matter, don't you? Well, if - -?---Well, I do. Well, if you did attempt to throw yourself through the window - -?---No. Well, I didn't, so you can finish it. I didn't. Right. I was going to put a proposition to you and ask for your response, so perhaps if you just bear with me? If you attempted to throw yourself through the window, would that be consistent with having injuries down one side of your body and also to the upper part of your head, above your eyes?---Which I didn't do. So you're saying that despite this fact that you were assaulted, you weren't punched anywhere on the other side of your body or anywhere on your face, below your eyes?---Well, it was probably the way I leant. I don't know, but it did - - well, they would have found glass in me, wouldn't they? Well, they didn't, so - - Well, you did smash the window, didn't you?---I smashed it with my hand. Mm. Well, I put it to you that you smashed it by attempting to throw yourself through the window?---No, I didn't. So you say that the only blows that were rained on you in this - -?---Why don't you ring up the hospital and ask them if they got any glass out of me, then? Just bear with me and we'll just get through this easier, if I just ask the questions and you answer them; is it the case that you're saying that you were never punched or assaulted on any other side, than one side of your body as shown in the report from - -?---Well, there's sides on - - there's marks on both side of my body, if you have another look at it. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6409

D18/2 POLICE MR CRISPE: And is it the case that, apart from the marks that are shown on your head in the diagram you've looked at, you weren't punched or damaged anywhere else on your face?---Well, I did have a black eye. Was that caused by you throwing yourself through the window?---I didn't throw myself through the window. And is it the case that, back at that stage, there were in fact no bars on that window?---There was outside bars on the window. You were legally represented in relation to the receiving charge?---Yes. Or charges, and the damage charge?---Yes. You understood, I take it, you could plead not guilty to that charge, or any of those charges?---Yes. And you understood you could make a complaint at the time to Police Internals, or the Ombudsman?---Oh, hilarious, yeah. Hilarious?---Of course a lot of people would, wouldn't they? Mm. Did you understand you could do that, though?---It wasn't worth it. Now, is it the case, and if necessary I'll have you shown the statements, but there were several statements - - well, perhaps just for completeness, I'm not sure of the first one, Mr Commissioner. It was 1025537, that's the Royal Commission reference. It may be exhibit 1121; I'm not sure. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The barcode is sufficient. MR CRISPE: I'm just going to have you shown a document. Now, I think you were asked earlier whether the signature was yours, and I think you said it - -?---It doesn't look my signature. That's all I can say. What about the last paragraph? Is that in your writing: "I have read this statement out aloud - - -" .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6410

D19/3 POLICE MR CRISPE: "- - - statement out aloud. It is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. This statement was made of my own free will without any threats or promises being made to me." Is that in your writing?---I - - I don't think it is. You don't think it is?---Well, that's all I can say. What, do you want me to say "Yes" and it's not, or - - I don't think it is. And the signature? You're saying that's not - -?---I don't think so, because it's not how I cross my "t"s. Is there any possibility that, firstly, that paragraph could be in your writing or printing?---Well, I wouldn't have thought my writing was that messy, but - - All right. So no chance at all?---No, I didn't say that. Right?---I'm saying I don't think so, but I don't know - - I can't - - I can't really answer the question because - - So it could have been in your writing, as you look at it? There's certain letters and the way the letters are constructed that - -?---Some of it looks all right. Some of it doesn't. Right. What about the signature?---No, it doesn't - - Any chance whatsoever that the signature could be yours?---It doesn't - - it's not how I cross my "t"s and things. Right. Well, not how you cross your "t"s now. What about back in 1991?---I can't remember, can I? So I can't really answer that question. Well, if I put it to you that it is your signature, what would you say to that?---Well, I'd say send it away and get it analysed and let me know. Okay. So you're saying, as you sit here today, your best answer is that that is not your signature?---That's right. And are you 100 per cent certain that it's not your signature? COMMISSIONER: No - - WITNESS: I can't answer that. COMMISSIONER: - - he's said that, Mr Crispe. I won't accept answers that - - .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6411

D19/3 POLICE MR CRISPE: All right. Just for completeness perhaps, if I can have the witness shown exhibit 1022? I think there might be a second page to that as well. Just looking now at the first page - - in fact there might even be more than two, I suspect. Again, in this case, the signature's - - I appreciate they're being flashed quite fast as we've gone through those pages 1 to 5, but the signatures at the bottom, are they yours?---It doesn't look like my handwriting. All right? That's all I can say. Both the signature and the paragraph?---I'm saying that it doesn't look like my handwriting. The signature and the page?---Any of it. Okay. Were you using drugs back in those days?---Yes. I think some of the subject matter of this involves swap of items for amphetamines and things like that?---Yes. Were you using amphetamines and heroin?---Amphetamines. Intravenously?---No. Heroin?---No. Not at all?---No. Did you ever suffer delusions from taking drugs?---Not that I know of, no. And in 1991, how long had you been using drugs?---Probably 6 months, maybe. Never prior to 6 months?---No. No convictions relating to - -?---No. - - using drugs prior to - -?---No. - - 1991. What about since; since that time?---I went off the rails this time, yes. Have you ever used drugs intravenously, either heroin or amphetamines?---Heroin, earlier last - - the middle of last year. For the first time?---Yes. And amphetamines?---No. Now, I think you told us that the Royal Commission came and saw you, did they?---That's correct. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6412

D19/3 POLICE MR CRISPE: When was the first time you've ever made a complaint of being electrocuted or having a torch placed up you?---Official complaint? Yes. When have you first mentioned it to anyone?---When I would have left the police, I suppose. Yes. Well, who did you make that to?---Bruce Robson, Rose Hanna and Judith Fordham. Oh, and Glen Ashby. So it would be wrong to say at any time that you attempted to either throw yourself through a window - -?---I didn't. - - or alternatively, ram your head through the interview room window?---Which I didn't. Have you any reason to explain why the injuries appear to be only as shown in that medical report?---Haven't we already gone over this? Well, it's not going to change, so give up. So you just say it's just lucky there's no punctures? on the other side of your body or - -?---Well, there is marks on the other side of my body, isn't there? There's marks on my arms. There's marks on my head. So - - When you were first apprehended, and I think you said you were hiding in a cupboard, did you attempt to escape at all?---No. They pulled me out and threw me on the bed. Was there any struggle by you at that stage?---Not really when there's three or four coppers leaning on you, is there? Were you attempting to fight them at that stage?---No. .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN 6413

D20/4 POLICE MR CRISPE: What did you mean by - well, if it was your expression that's shown on the medical report - being involved in a fight?---Well, I can't say that I said that, right? Mm?---I was taken to hospital. The nurses looked at me. Maybe I might have said something like that to the nurse, to get a hold of my mother, which she did do. Yes, I have nothing further. COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Pettit? MR PETTIT: No re-examination, thank you, sir. NO RE-EXAMINATION COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr Stiggants?---All right. You're free to go now. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: I call Judith Fordham. JUDITH GAYE FORDHAM called: COMMISSIONER: Ms Fordham, I think you take the affirmation, don't you? MS FORDHAM: I do, sir, yes. JUDITH GAYE FORDHAM affirmed: COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Sit down, please. EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Ms Fordham, you are a barrister here in Perth? ---I am. And in 1991 I think you had your own law firm?---I did. As a sole practitioner?---I had employees. And at some point, I think perhaps around 1990, you had a client, Philip John Stiggants?---I remember him, yes. And I think when first he engaged you he was facing charges of receiving?---Yes. Now, there was an occasion in which the Royal Commission is interested in 1991 when, as we understand it, Mr Stiggants or .23/01/2003 STIGGANTS, P.J. XXN; FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6414

D20/4 POLICE someone on his behalf contacted you and you attended at a house. Do you recall that occasion?---I recall the general circumstances. MR PETTIT: Do you recall attending at a house?---I recall attending at a residence. I can't recall whether it was a house or a unit or townhouse or what. Now, we have here a file from your firm which I'd like you to look at. Can we have up on the screen, please, D1025401? (TO WITNESS): Refer to the file, Ms Fordham, if you need to. The document that's coming up on the screen is at the very back of the file. I think it's the first yellow tag. If you can have a look at that and tell us is that your handwriting? It might be the first pink tag, I'm sorry?---Yes. Yes, that's my handwriting. And there's no date on it but it has "Wednesday". The file note appears to read: "Les - hit him." Do you know who Les is?---The only Les it could be is Les Molyneux. Now, do you recall what this note refers to?---The note generally refers to a complaint made by Mr Stiggants of assaults on him at Morley CIB. Do you know whether this note was made because of a telephone call or because of an interview between you and Mr Stiggants - - - .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6415

D21/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - you and Mr Stiggants?---No, I don't. You see there's a note, "Bring camera"; is that your handwriting?---Yes. Is this note consistent with your having received a telephone call during which you were told something and, as a result of which, you or someone had decided to take photographs of something?---I was told that Mr Stiggants had been assaulted, and I did attend at some premises with the intention of taking photographs of his injuries. This file note is a record of what you were told by Mr Stiggants, is it, or it includes that, I should say?---Certainly. It covers what I was told by him. And you - - ?---What I'm saying is that I believe that it refers to a communication from him. In fact, if you'll just let me read it for a moment. Yeah; it was a communication from him. Whether it was phone or in person, that's what I can't remember. Now, you correct me if I have it wrong; it seems to read: "Les" - hyphen - "hit him. Bags over head. Shocks" -

hyphen - "electric" - question mark - "cow prod. Smashed windows. Cracked ribs. Believe him" -

does that say?---Yes. MR PETTIT: "Statement duress. No complaint. No marks on him.

RPH" - standing for Royal Perth Hospital - "Thursday night. Casualty. Cops took him" - question mark - "Car accident" - question mark - "fight" -

is that?---"Fight". "Fight", yes. MR PETTIT: "Female doctor, and Gary O'Reilly." And on the right-hand side: "Bring camera. Take photos of injuries" - is that "remand"?---"Remind of Nemuth?" that says. "Remind of Nemmet"?---Nemuth. Now, first of all, can you say now what you meant by "No complaint"?---I meant that Mr Stiggants - - I discussed the question whether Mr Stiggants should make a complaint about .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6416

D21/1 POLICE what he alleged had happened to him, and he was reluctant to do so. MR PETTIT: There's a reference at the foot of the page to question mark "car". Would that be car accident?---Accident, that would be. What does that have to do with what you were told?---I'm digging into the recesses of my memory now, but it has to do with him going to hospital. I can't say now whether it was that that's what the hospital was told or that's what he planned to tell them; I don't remember. It has to do with him going to hospital in an injured state though. That's the best I can do. I suppose the most precise answer is, I don't know. Now, the second page of that document, and this may have little to do with it, appears to read: "Eight, nine hundred dollars stolen. Call Mad Dog.

He not there. Beat up. Call Les. Call Greenshaw. Call Neilsen?. Got bail."

Does that have anything to do with what you were told, or your instructions in respect of Mr Stiggants?---The list of calling people would be my plans to call people, would not have anything to do with instructions from Mr Stiggants. The rest - - the "He not there" either means I've attempted to call that person and he wasn't there, or he wasn't there when the incident took place. I can't say now what that note means. It has to mean one of the two. Now, the reference to Les; can you say who that is?---Molyneaux. .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6417

D22/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: That's a person you were acquainted with, is it?---I knew him, yes. Previous dealings with him. Can you recall what the reference to "eight or nine hundred dollars stolen" indicates?---No. Is there somebody whose nickname is "Mad Dog"?---Yes. Do you know who that is?---Garry O'Reilly. And what did Garry O'Reilly have to do with this matter, on your instructions?---As I said, that - - that would indicate my plan to call him. I can't say whether I had any instructions about his involvement with this matter. I do know that I had contact with him afterwards. I infer from that that he must have been working at Morley at the time, but that's only an inference. I've got no specific recollection of that. Can I take you to the next document which is flagged in your file, and that is D1025402? Do you have that note?---Yes. Is that in your hand as well?---Yes. The general nature of this note has to do with further instructions, does it, from Mr Stiggants?---Yes. I'll read it: "Thursday, 2.30 pm, 12 Cascade - -" That's an address, I take it?---Yes. MR PETTIT: "3 pm to Morley CIB until 11 - -" I sort of interpret, you tell me if I get it wrong?---Would - - I'm sorry to interrupt, I know you're asking the questions, but would you prefer I read it and interpreted it as I went? Yes, perhaps that would be better?---Right. This is what - - this is a note reflecting what Mr Stiggants told me had happened to him. Where I'm not sure, I'll say so. I'm uncertain, but I think it means that at 2.30 pm, he was at that address. Certainly he had been at that address, of 12 Cascade. At about 3 o'clock he was taken to Morley CIB. He eventually left about 11 pm. He was taken to an interview room. He told me the names of John Allen and David Briggs were the names he used, as having been there, who were police officers. I can't explain why I've written, "Robert (Scott)" and then crossed it out. I don't know why that is. He was handcuffed to a table. He was left for about half an hour. .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6418

D22/2 POLICE "He asked on many - - or on several occasions to have the handcuffs loosened. He was not given a drink, he wasn't allowed to call anyone, he wasn't given access to a lawyer. He was given no cigarettes". There is a word next to "purple" which I can't read. I think it might say "freed" but I'm not sure. Oh, "tired", I think it says, but I'm not sure. "The cuffs were taken off, his hands were purple and

had no feeling. He suffered a beating. He did not answer questions which he couldn't answer. He told police what he was able to answer. He did not give them any cheek. When he did ask a question, he was told, `You speak when I tell you to' and slapped across the head".

A plastic bag was placed on his head and someone started to tape around the bottom of the plastic bag, and by "on his head", I mean over his head. He believes that something in the nature of an electric prodder was used on him. He doesn't know precisely what it was. It was used on his arms, his legs and his head. The bag was ripped off. I can't tell from my note whether it was him or by someone else. An officer or officers laid into him. I can't tell now from my note whether it was one or more than one. "Laid into him" of course means beating. Les, which would be Les Molyneaux, watched, did nil, which to me means he did nothing and asked nothing. Mr Stiggants put his fist through the window because he had had enough. He was trying to slash his wrists. He was hit again. He told them what he wanted - - what they wanted to know. He was concerned about endangering himself - - - .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6419

D23/5 POLICE WITNESS: - - - endangering himself because of telling police about other people - in other words, dobbing, if you like. "He was left alone for an hour. More questions were

then asked. He was asked to look at some stolen goods. Query statements".

I'm not quite sure what that means now. "He admitted presumably culpability in respect of some

of the goods. He signed a statement". This bit I'm a little bit concerned about continuing to read, in terms of his wellbeing. MR PETTIT: Perhaps you can read it and we can have it suppressed?---All right. "He dobbed his (...name suppressed...) in. His boss

is someone (...suppressed...) (...name suppressed...). Philip Stiggants has shares".

Whether that means in his business - - I think that's probably what it means. "Middleman". I'm not sure whether that refers to (...name suppressed...) or Stiggants. I think (...name suppressed...). I then listed some goods - cordless phone, answering machine, binoculars, cameras, and said "Charged with tyres". I can't really explain what means, except that they're probably goods to do with the receiving. "Mr Stiggants was told to expect more charges. Police

had picked up other people. (...name suppressed...)" - that is the (...suppressed...) - "asked Philip Stiggants to take the rap, take the blame, for the computer gear".

"At 11 pm he was taken to East Perth" - that would be

East Perth lock-up - "without bail and was taken to hospital whilst he was in custody. There were uniformed officers at the lock-up who took him to hospital".

This to me looks as if there was a photograph taken of his face, but not of his body. I can't say now whether that means at the hospital or the lock-up, but it would be one of those two places. It seems (...name suppressed...), the person I previously referred to, asked the police to take him to hospital. .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6420

D23/5 POLICE "12.00 to 12.30": I'm not sure what that means - probably the time he went to hospital. "Dollar from father" means his father would be paying his bills. He had lumps in his legs. It's okay for me to talk to his father but not to his mother. He did a record of interview. Here we are. At 6 am he went back to the lock-up. The doctor wanted him to stay in hospital. "Uniformed" - clearly referring to uniformed police, but I don't know what I meant there now. "Drug Squad" refers to the Drug Squad, but again I don't know what I meant there. MR PETTIT: The last page?---Is there more? There's something over the page, in fact. I see. I'll need to take it off the clip if I can, because I don't recognise the writing there. Can I take this off the clip? Yes?---Mm. While that is being done, Commissioner, can I ask for an order that there be no publication of the name (...name suppressed...) or of the references in this note to any dealings by Mr Stiggants with his (...suppressed...) or a middleman. WITNESS: The other thing I'm concerned about there is the - - MR PETTIT: Just a moment?---I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER: Yes. I direct that there be no publication of the name (...name suppressed...) or of the reference to any dealings by Mr Stiggants in the note with respect to his employer or other persons. WITNESS: I'm concerned about the reference to him dropping his (...suppressed...) in it, if you like. That was my concern and my hesitation about reading it. MR PETTIT: Yes. I think we've covered that?---All right. The reference on the back looks like my writing. I'm not 100 per cent sure. It says: "8 pm: photographs 9.3.91". I don't know what that means. I'd only be inferring. .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6421

D24/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: Now, you did attend at some premises, I take it? ---Yes. Can you say now whether the notes we've just been referring to were taken upon that attendance or at some other time? It might assist you if you look a little further into the file. I think there's an account there that might assist your memory?---Well, certainly I did, according to the account, see him on a Saturday evening, and that would have been at those premises, certainly. I don't normally have my office open on a Saturday evening. I would have gone there, and I remember specifically making a special effort to do that. It's also extremely unusual for me to make a house call on a client but I felt it was important at the time. What was the date of that attendance?---According to the account, Saturday evening, 9th of March 1991. Of course, I've got no independent recall of that. Now, on the occasion of your attendance were you shown anything by Mr Stiggants?---I saw his injuries. Can you recall them now?---With difficulty. I recall his face being bruised and I recall marks to his body. I believe, although I'm not 100 per cent certain - - I have, if you like, an image in my mind of his eye, one of his eyes, being swollen and blackened but I'd give you about 90 per cent on that recollection. That's the best I can do. Certainly, he was visibly injured. Now, you've already intimated that he had at this stage at least tentatively instructed you that he didn't want a complaint made?---Yes. The matter proceeded to a plea of guilty on several charges. I want to deal with the charge of damage to public property? ---Yes. Now, can you tell us at the time what were your instructions about that event?---That he wanted to kill himself and he broke the window in order to get something sharp to kill himself with, and he was charged with damaging the window. Did he say how he broke the window?---Probably, but I've got no specific recollection. Again I'm digging into some vague memories. If we can go back to the first document we looked at, which was D1025402. No, I'm sorry, that's not the first document. It's the second one. The one headed "Thursday"?---Ah, he did tell me, yes. My notes would reflect what I was told, and he says, "Put fist through window." .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6422

D24/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: All right - "and tried to slash wrists"? ---That's right, because - - those three dots are "because". "Because he'd had enough." Now, the reason I raised that is that - - if we can have a look at the sentencing remarks of the judge, which is D1025539, on the 16th of August 1991, an occasion on which you appeared for Mr Stiggants. If we can go to page 28. Do you see that the sentencing remarks in the centre paragraph by the judge are this: "You were severely addicted to drugs and it appears

that you were mixing with other people who were probably in a similar position. In any event, you were exchanging drugs for goods and vice versa and all the items to which I have referred have been recovered. The charges on the 656A notice is an indication of the state of your health at the time you were arrested. While being interviewed by detectives at the Morley CIB office you suddenly jumped up from your chair, shouted, 'I want to kill myself', and hurled yourself out of one of the office windows, and in the process broke that window."

.23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6423

D25/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Did that reflect your instructions?---Not according to this note and again, I've got no specific recollection of precisely what I was told, but my handwritten note ought to reflect what I was told. Whether those instructions altered since, I don't know, but given I've got no recollection, I can't tell you. Perhaps we could find page 17 in that transcript. For the record, that's barcode 1025540. The third paragraph in respect of this charge, you addressed in these terms: "I think the facts alleged in relation to that one" -

meaning that charge - "are exactly as it happened. Mr Stiggants had been subjected to quite some time of vigorous questioning and that is exactly what Mr Stiggants did. He decided he was going to kill himself and fortunately the flyscreen was on the inside of the window so he wasn't injured. Fortunately he didn't kill himself but I propose to say no more about that particular charge."

Now, as I understand your evidence, it is that you were under instructions not to make a fuss about the assaults?---Definitely. It was your instructions at the time that he was not injured by what he did to the window?---No. Is it the case, can you recall, whether the facts as alleged are exactly as it happened?---I've got no independent recollection, again. I would certainly not have said anything which was incorrect to the court. I can't tell from that paragraph whether I am agreeing that he actually, if you like, tried to throw himself out or whether I'm still of a mind that he had used his fist on the window. That paragraph doesn't help me, but the bottom line is he was - - whatever he did, he was intending to kill himself. He originally told me - - unless I've made a mistake, but I doubt it, he originally told me that he tried to put his fist through the window. I don't know whether he ended up agreeing with the suggestion that he'd tried to throw himself out or not. I really can't tell. I didn't have a lot to say then. All right. One other matter, Miss Fordham. If we can have document D1025542, dated the 7th of May 1991? I think on your file it's the last of the tags. Do you have that document?---Yes. Is it the one on the screen now?---Yes. That's not in your hand?---No. .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6424

D25/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Can you tell us what it relates to?---It relates to Mr Stiggants' property and retrieving it for him from Morley CIB. Do you know what property that was? It was property seized on a search, was it?---Yes. I believe it was a briefcase and some contents - - - .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6425

D26/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - a briefcase and some contents. Again, I'm not entirely certain. MR PETTIT: Thank you. Commissioner, can I tender the documents referred to? The handwritten note marked "Wednesday" - - these are all item 4 on the list. The handwritten note's headed "Wednesday", which is with the barcode attached, and handwritten notes headed "Thursday 2.30 pm" firstly. COMMISSIONER: Yes. They can conveniently be part of the one exhibit, I think. The handwritten notes made by Ms Fordham headed "Wednesday", barcoded D1025401, and "Thursday", D1025402, will together be exhibit 1126. EXHIBIT 1126 Mr Pettit DATE (Unstated) Ms Fordham's handwritten notes - "Wednesday" barcode D1025401, "Thursday" barcode D1025402 MR PETTIT: There is one matter I forgot to ask you about, Ms Fordham, and that is, do you have a recollection of taking photographs of Mr Stiggants?---Strangely, I don't. I have a recollection of going to the premises, seeing his injuries, intending to photograph them, but I'm not actually - - and therefore I believe I did, but I have no - - no specific recollection of doing so. In any event, at the Royal Commission's request you've turned your mind to where any such photographs might be found and - - ?---Yes. - - as we understand it, none have been discovered?---The file - - I sold my firm. The file was left with the old firm. What I can say is that this file shows the appearance of what would have been routine with all archive files, and that is to take from the file anything which might belong to the client. So one option is they may have been returned, but certainly I have no knowledge of where they might be. Thank you. No further questions. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, Mr Hall? Do you - - MR HALL: No, thank you, sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALL COMMISSIONER: Mr Crispe? MR CRISPE: I have no questions, thank you, Commissioner. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CRISPE .23/01/2003 FORDHAM, J.G. XN 6426

D26/1 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you very much, Ms Fordham. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: Call Rosealie Marie Hanna. COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, please? MS HANNA: Rosealie Marie Hanna. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? MS HANNA: No. COMMISSIONER: If you could take the Bible then and read out the oath aloud. ROSEALIE MARIE HANNA sworn: COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Sit down, please. EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Now, Ms Hanna, I think in 1991 you were living in Dianella with your daughter, Katrina?---Yes. And one or two other children?---A foster child. And at that time - 1991 - you knew Mr Philip Stiggants?---Yes. He was a friend of yours?---Yes. And as at 1991 you'd known him for about how long?---Only for about 3 or 4 years - - - .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6427

D27/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - 3 or 4 years. Three years or something. MR PETTIT: Do you recall an occasion in 1991 when Mr Stiggants was at your house and police attended?---Yes. First of all, do you know why Mr Stiggants was at your house?---He actually - - I hadn't seen him for a little while and he rang me up and asked me to pick him up and catch up, so I went and picked him up and brought him back to my place. And you recall the police attending?---Pardon? You recall the police arriving?---Yes. Perhaps you can tell us, from that point, what happened?---They - - Philip - - well, he'd only been here - - there a little while; we'd only just arrived, and heard a screech of brakes in the driveway, knock at the door, and there was plainclothes detectives there, and they asked if Philip - - they had a warrant for Philip Stiggants, and I said, "He's - - he doesn't live here" and they had a search warrant. They had a search warrant, and - - You said, "He doesn't live here"?---I just said that he doesn't - - well, he didn't live there. Sort of glossed over the matter?---Yeah. Mm hm. What happened next?---Well, they - - they had a warrant, so they came in and went through the house and Philip was actually in my bedroom, and they found him actually in my wardrobe, and they pulled him - - pulled him out the wardrobe. Look, all I could hear was banging and crashing. You didn't see police find him in the wardrobe?---No. I - - I heard the commotion up there. Where were you at that time?---I was at the kitchen table, and the hall is - - goes straight up and my bedroom is just at the end. It's not - - not a huge place. So you didn't see anything, but did you hear something?---No, but I heard, and - - Yes. What did you hear?---I heard Philip say, "Don't" and he sort of, "Ahh" and that, and crashing, and I got up out of the chair and I took off up the hallway and just say, "Stop it. Leave him alone" and a detective said, "Get back down there" and said, "Sit there and stay there." And I got up again as well, a second time, when I heard, you know, the carrying-on. .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6428

D27/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: When you say "carrying-on", what do you mean?---Well, there's like just crashing. You know, my coat-rack was all tipped up and everything. Just - - yeah, Philip just went, you know, "Oh", like that. And they were sort of like yelling and - - I mean, it was pretty sort of - - I don't know, I've never been in that situation before. How did it affect you? Did you say anything or - -?---Yes. Well, I got up and took off up to the hallway and I did a couple of times. Did you see Mr Stiggants taken away?---Yes. And do you recall whether he was handcuffed?---I can't - - I can't really recall. It's too long ago. Incidentally, was your daughter present during this?---No, she was in the swimming pool with the foster boy, Lang, which my bedroom faces the - - the window faces the pool. It's just a - - Did she come into the house at any point?---No. No. Did you go out to see her?---I did go out and see her because she was crying because she thought I was - - she could hear me yelling and screaming at them to stop, and she thought I was being bashed. So, I was - - I was, you know - - so, she was in tears so I ended up going out there and calming her down. And in fact you were not harmed at all?---No. Right. So Mr Stiggants was taken away. Do you know when you next saw him?---I think it was - - oh, it's really hard, it's a long time ago. The next day; it would have been the next day, probably in the afternoon. Mm hm. And where was it, that you saw him?---At Dianella. At my home. He came to your home?---Yes. Unannounced, do you recall?---Yes. Yeah. And did he then tell you what had happened to him?---Well, he - - yes, he did. Tell us as near to exactly what he said, that you can recall?---He could - - well, he could barely walk, as it was - - - .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6429

D28/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - as it was, and he said that they'd - - he showed me the handcuff marks on his wrists, which were deep. They put a plastic bag or something on him and taped it up so he couldn't breathe, stripped him naked on the floor and, you know, were calling him names, and got a baton or one of them torches, those big torches, and - - it's hard to say that. They were putting it up his backside. MR PETTIT: Did he mention to you anything else?---Yes, that he - - he couldn't - - the cattle prod, plus he tried to throw himself through a window to kill himself. He'd had enough. He said he couldn't take any more. He was really traumatised and I was really upset at hearing him telling me this. So it's sort of like - - other little things I don't really know. I know the cattle prod, the plastic bag and the torches or baton or what - - and him trying to commit suicide by throwing himself through the window. Yes. We'll come back to that in a moment. Did he go into any detail about the, as you call it, cattle prod?---No, he was really upset because - - he was just really, really upset and I was really upset. When you say he was upset - was he in tears or was he - - ? ---Well, we both were because he was just - - it was awful, you know? How could someone do that to somebody, you know? Did he give you any detail about the use of the cattle prod or did he simply say it was used?---Well, they zapped him on his back and that because he had blood blisters on his back and - - they were like blood blisters. Did you see those blood blisters?---Yes, I did, and the bruising. Can you say about how many of the blood blisters you saw? ---A lot. No, I couldn't even - - What, two or three or more?---There would be more. Probably more. I don't know. What did they look like? How big were these blood blisters? Can you compare them to anything we know?---Some were just really, like, little but he had a lot of bruising so it was - - it was pretty - - Well, just focus - - ?---I don't really like to look. You know, it was horrible. Focus on the blood blisters. Were they the size of a mosquito bite, a match head, a 5 cent piece?---Probably a match. A match. Probably a match or a couple of match heads. .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6430

D28/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: And the bruising. Starting, sort of, from stem to stern, can you recall what parts of his body were bruised? ---He had - - he had a thing on his head and I think he had - - A thing?---Like a graze on his head. That happened in my bedroom. A - - Well, let's stop you there. How do you know that happened in the bedroom?---Because before he went in there that wasn't there. And, what, you saw him at your house the day he was arrested? ---Yes, when they brought him out. All right. Now, go back to other bruising?---He had mainly - - mainly the right side. There was bruising, like, all over the whole back but mainly the right, the right side and right arm, and he had bruises on his - - on his legs. It was, like, all over but it was mainly on the right, from what I can remember. What about his face and hair? Did you notice anything there - - - .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6431

D29/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - notice anything there?---Oh, he had like just a few, but I couldn't really - - I was too upset. Have you spoken to Mr Stiggants about the Royal Commission proceedings?---No. When was the last time you did speak to him?---I actually spoke to him the week before Christmas. Was any of this matter mentioned - -?---No. - - on that occasion?---No. No. Now, you've also told us that Mr Stiggants mentioned to you that somehow or other he broke a window - -?---Yes. - - attempting to kill himself?---Yes. Now, I want you to be as very clear in your mind as you can about that, and tell us exactly what he said about that incident?---He said he couldn't take any more and he tried to kill himself by trying to smash through the - - you know, smash the window to cut himself, because he couldn't take it any more. Did he say - - can you recall - - and please tell us if you can't. Did he say how exactly he broke the window?---No. No, you can't recall, or no, he didn't - -?---No. Well, I can't recall, but - - There have been two versions of this and I want you to see if you can recall which, if either, you were told. One, that he put his fist through the window or secondly, that he tried to throw himself through the window. Do you recall him mentioning either of those, or neither?---No. It's a long time ago. Well, himself, because he wanted to commit suicide. Is that something he said or is it something you've deduced from him telling you that he wanted to kill himself?---Well, he said he wanted to kill himself and he was going to try and do it by smashing a window and cutting himself. He just couldn't take it. He just wanted out - - out of there. Did someone decide to telephone a lawyer about this?---I - - I called Judith, probably a couple of times. That's Judith Fordham?---Judith Fordham, yes. Sorry. That Philip had been arrested, and then I - - because I couldn't get - - I couldn't get any feedback from Morley, Morley Police Station to where Philip was. .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6432

D29/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Did you attempt to?---Yes. How did you do that?---I rang - - rang the Morley Police Station. That was on the day he was arrested?---Yes. Do you know who you spoke to?---No. A male or a female?---Oh, I don't - - I really don't know. I know I made a few calls there to try and find out where he was and was told - - well, I was told nothing. Were you told he was there, or that he was not there?---No. I wasn't told - - I was told that he wasn't there. Incidentally, before I forget, did you go to Morley CIB at all?---No. Did you have a car?---Yes. During the day, that day, you think you telephoned Judith Fordham?---Probably in the afternoon, after I couldn't get hold of Philip. But before you saw Philip obviously?---Before I saw Philip, yes. And before you'd spoken to Philip?---Yes. Do you remember Miss Fordham coming to your house?---Yes, I do. Do you know what day that was? Was it the same day - -?---No. - - that Philip turned up on your doorstep, or was it - -?---No. It - - I think I might have rang Judith Fordham that day that Philip showed up and said that the condition he was in, his bruising and that - - and I think she came the next - - it would have been the next day. .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN 6433

D30/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: And do you recall any mention of a camera?---Yes, I do. Tell us about that?---Well, because of - - Judith advised me to take photos of Philip's injuries, and I said, "I have not got a camera." And she offered to loan us a camera. Did she bring a camera?---Yes. Do you recall whether photographs were taken?---Yes. In my kitchen. And these are photographs of Mr Stiggants, of course?---Yes. And have you looked for those photographs?---Oh, yes. That's at the request of the Royal Commission?---Yes. Yes. And I take it from your - - ?---No. - - that you were unable to. Mm. Do you remember ever seeing the photographs?---Yes. Yes. I had them - - I had them for years, but I've - - in my travels I've - - I mean, I've lost a lot of photographs and - - Do you still live at the same address?---No. No. Thank you. No further questions. COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall, do you have any questions? MR HALL: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR HALL: MR HALL: Ms Hanna, could you just repeat to us what Stiggants told you about the torches and - - the torch and baton? You mentioned torches and batons?---It's either torch or baton. I - - Yes. Can you tell me what was meant?---Well, it was - - we were both really upset because he was telling me what's happened, but he said that he was laying on the floor and they were putting either a torch or baton up his backside. Could have been both; I don't know. I can't really remember. Okay. Thank you?---Right. Thanks. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR PETTIT: No re-examination, thanks, sir. .23/01/2003 HANNA, R.M. XN XXN 6434

D30/1 POLICE NO RE-EXAMINATION COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Hanna. You're free to go now. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: Commissioner, I'm afraid I've mistimed things by 15 minutes, and I don't have another witness until 2 o'clock. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. Then we'll adjourn now until 2 o'clock. AT 12.44 HEARING ADJOURNED .23/01/2003 6435

D31/2 POLICE AT 2.05 PM HEARING RESUMED: COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pettit? MR PETTIT: I call Glenn James Ashby. GLENN JAMES ASHBY called: COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, Mr Ashby? MR ASHBY: Glenn James Ashby. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? MR ASHBY: No. COMMISSIONER: Yes. If you would take the Bible and read out the oath, please? GLENN JAMES ASHBY sworn: COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Sit down, please. EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Mr Ashby, your date of birth, I think, is the 28th of August 1971?---That's correct. You know a person, one Philip Stiggants?---Yes. And I think you've known him since the late 1980s?---Yes, that's correct. In fact, you and he shared a house for a while?---Yes. Around 1991?---Yes. What suburb was that?---In Embleton. Right. Do you recall a time in 1991 when Mr Stiggants was trying to avoid the police?---Yes. Do you know how that came about?---You'll have to ask me that again, sorry? How did you know that the police - - well, he was trying to avoid the police? Did he tell you that?---The police told me that. The police - - I told Philip that the police were looking for him. And you knew that, how?---Because the police had told me. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6436

D31/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: And they'd told you on an occasion at which they'd attended on your home?---No, they told me in the Morley CIB. Now, during this period, when police were looking for Mr Stiggants, did police question you about his whereabouts?---Yes. On how many occasions?---Every day until they caught him. Now, as we understand it, there was a search on the Embleton home?---Yes. Were you present when that search occurred?---Yes, I was. And was that the first occasion you knew that Mr Stiggants was somehow in trouble with police?---Yes. Were you questioned by police before or after that search?---They took me away to the Morley CIB and wanted to know where Philip was. Was that on the day of the search, was it?---Yes. I was taken away. Do you remember the names of any of the officers concerned?---Detective Fennenham?, Les Molyneaux, a Scottish detective, which I'm not - - I can't remember his name, but a Scottish detective, and David - - David - - Dave Higgs. And are you sure about the Scottish part, are you?---Yes. How do you know that? From his accent, or some other means?---Because I was terrified, I was absolutely petrified of him. How did that lead you to remember that he's Scottish?---Because he has a very strong Scottish accent. I see. No other names you can recall?---They are the only names, yes. All right. Do you know - - I'll come back to that later. Where were you taken?---I was taken to the Morley CIB. Do you recall the layout of the Morley CIB, what the interior looked like?---No, but I can distinctly remember these three rooms, and there was a hallway, and then you walk out the back. Were you taken somewhere in that CIB - -?---When I was first arrested, I was taken to the CIB. I was handcuffed to the drainage pipes out the back of the CIB, left there about half an hour, an hour, then I was taken into the middle room, I think it was - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6437

D32/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - middle room, I think it was. MR PETTIT: Yes?---And what was that again, sorry? No. That's all right. Do you remember who it was handcuffed you to the drainpipes on the outside?---No. I couldn't tell you exactly what the detective - - who did that, no. Then you were taken into a middle room. What happened there?---I was handcuffed to the bottom of the - - of the desk. There's bars around the desk and I was handcuffed down to the bar. The handcuffs were on me very tight; very tight. And - - So you're indicating that the handcuff was on your right wrist?---Yes. And the other end of the handcuff was on a rung at the bottom of the desk?---Yes. Is that correct?---Yes. So were you able to be seated during that?---Yes. I was able to be seated because they put me down so I could - - I had to - - when I was seated I had my arm down low. And you were leaning over. I see?---Yes. Were you there in that position on your own, or was a detective or two present?---There was three present. What happened next?---They asked me where Philip was. I told them, "I don't know." They hit me a few times, punched me to the head, and they asked me where Philip was again. I said, "I don't know." I got punched again by all three. I - - they asked me again; repeatedly kept asking me, "Where's Philip? Where do you get the drugs from?" and I said, "I don't know." And at the end I couldn't even get out - - I'd say, "I don't - - I don't - - " and then it was "whack". I didn't even get out "I don't know". Was it the truth that you didn't know?---Absolutely the truth. And which of the detectives you've mentioned hit you?---Detective Fennenham hit me a couple of times. He actually - - I was being walked out to the back through the hallway and I was - - he was coming towards me and I was walking down the hallway with a detective. I couldn't tell you which one. But Fennenham come down on me and went "whack" with his shoulder into my chest, and it was very painful, and it was that hard that I found it hard to breathe for a couple of days. When I'd breathe I had pain. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6438

D32/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Was that when you were being taken somewhere, was it?---That was - - this is the same day. Yes. Were you - - ?---This is all in the same time. Were you being taken somewhere away from the room at that point?---Yes. Do you remember where you were being taken?---No. I can't. But I didn't move out of the Morley CIB. All right. Now, we were dealing with the period in which you were in this middle room, and you told me you were hit a couple of times by Detective Fennenhan?---Mm hm. Were you hit by any of the other detectives?---Yes. Who?---A Scottish guy. The Scottish detective. And Les Molyneaux. Les only hit me - - he was fairly fair, actually. He let - - he was only in there for a very, very short period of time to very - - to begin with, and then he left me alone. He was more worried about catching Philip than me. Was he present all the time?---Detective - - Molyneaux?--- - - Molyneaux? Yes. Right. So that's three persons hit you - - ?---Yes. - - during this period?---Yes. No others?---No. Can you say - - I know this might be difficult, but can you say about how many times you were hit on this first day? Or what order would be; be four or five? More than that?---Four - - oh, more than four. Half a dozen times. Maybe even - - yeah; half a dozen times positively. Was David Higgs present during this?---Yes, he was. Did he do anything to you - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6439

D33/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - anything to you?---No. He was actually pretty good to me, actually. He - - from what I could gather, he had come from another part of the police force and he was new to the Morley CIB and I said to Dave Higgs, "I'm not the person that you think I am. Take time out and you'll realise that I'm not a big guy, or nothing what youse think. I'm just a nothing." And he took the time out and he - - he obviously knew I wasn't the person they believed that I was. And he was the only one that took time out and actually checked out me, and he knew that I wasn't. Whereabouts on your body were you hit?---My head. Back of my head and the side of - - both sides of my head and the back of my head. Anywhere else?---No. Now, on this first day, did anything else happen to you?---No, just I couldn't give them the information that they wanted so it must have been very frustrating for the detectives and they were very frustrated and that was what happened. So you were released that day?---Yes. And where did you go?---I went back to Phil's house because the morning when they come and knocked in the door, the door, the frame, the light switch and everything was down, and I had a blue heeler dog and I thought "I've got to get back to the house to get my dog" and also the door was smashed in and I thought anything could happen to the house. So I went back there. I got all Philip's belongings as well as my own and I put them all into a blue station wagon, Ford station wagon, and I took them to my parents' home, and that's where I stayed from then on. I think the detectives approached you on a second occasion?---Yes. When was that?---At my mum's place the very next morning. Did somebody arrive?---Yes. Who was that?---The Scottish man, the Scottish detective. There was two. Definitely the Scottish detective and I believe it was Detective - - it is Detective Fennenham. It was Detective Fennenham. And were you taken somewhere?---Yes. Taken back to the Morley CIB. Were you invited to go with them?---I was told that I was going with them. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6440

D33/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Were you arrested?---Yes, "You're under arrest. You're coming with us." Are you sure they used that word?---Yes, "You're under arrest. You're coming with us" because they're the words that actually petrified me and I can remember it vividly. Just going back to the first day, did they invite you to go with them on that day?---No. I was just taken. Were you arrested on that day?---No. They just took me in because they believed that I knew where Philip was and that I was their crucial part of finding out where Philip was. But you're clear that on the second day they used the words "You're under arrest"?---Yes. Or some such - -?---"You're coming with us." I can remember those words, "You are coming with us." Yes. That's different from "being under arrest" though. Are you clear that they used the words "You're under arrest" or some such?---Actually, no, I'm not clear on that, but I can definitely remember them saying "You are coming with us" and I knew I had no option. If they said I was going, I was going. Back to Morley?---Yes. Back to the same room?---Yes. This is the room you were describing as "the middle room"?---Yes. Did it have windows?---Yes. So when you say "middle" you mean in the middle of one side of the house?---Yes. On one side of the house there was the detectives' room, which was a big room up at the end, and there was another room and then there was another room, and I was either in the third room or the middle room, but I was in each of them anyway. What happened to you on that second day?---They asked me once again where Philip was and I said once again, "I don't know." And they once - - and they still believed I knew. And was anything done to you on this day?---Yes. What was that?---I was handcuffed again, to the desk, and I was repeatedly punched by the three detectives. By "the three detectives" you mean the Scotsman?---The Scottish man, Fennenham. And like I said, Les Molyneaux was only there at the very beginning with me, to begin with - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6441

D34/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - to begin with. There was definitely three. I had three on each side of me. Two on each side and one behind. MR PETTIT: And you don't recall the third detective on the second day?---No. All right, and when you say "repeatedly punched" - can you estimate for us how many punches might have been delivered? ---It was only one punch. Every time I said "I don't know" it was just one punch. So in the course of this period at the police station how many times would that have been?---Once again, half a dozen times. And whereabouts on your body were these punches administered?---The same place. Both sides of my head and the back of my head. Were these slaps with an open hand or punches with a fist? ---No, they were closed fist punches. You suffered no injuries from this?---No. Were the - - ?---Only mental. Yes, we'll come to that later. The punches were with a bare fist?---Yes. Were the lightly delivered, were they?---No, they were quite forceful. Enough to try and get me to talk. But not enough to draw blood?---No. And not enough to break any bones?---No. Now, it was still the case that you did not know the whereabouts of Stiggants?---No, I didn't. How long were you kept at the station on the second occasion? ---From the morning, from about - - roughly from 8.30 until 9.30 I was picked up. It always seemed to be just after my mum left for work. I was picked up in the morning and I was let out about 6 o'clock at night. You were at the station virtually the - - ?---The entire day basically. The entire day?---Yeah. On how many occasions were you questioned? How many separate occasions?---I was questioned every day. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6442

D34/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: No, on this second day. You weren't questioned the whole period, I presume?---No, they'd left me on my own for a while, an hour on my own, and then they come back in and they were at me again. Then they'd go away and they'd do whatever they done, and they'd come back to me, and then they'd try and say that - - I can't really remember but they were just really trying to scare me into saying something that I had - - didn't know. Mm hm?---You know. Were you handcuffed for some of this period?---Yes. All the period. I never had the handcuffs taken off me. Did anything else happen on that day we should know about - that second day?---No. You were released, you say, around 6 o'clock?---Around sixish. Late afternoon. You went back home to your parents' place?---Yes. How did you get there?---From memory, I think I caught a taxi and my mum paid for it. Did you tell your parents what was going on?---Yes. When? On the first night? The second night?---No, I didn't tell my mum and dad because of - - I didn't want to get them under any stress or worry them or anything like that. I'm sorry, I thought you said a moment ago that you did tell them?---Oh, yes, I did tell them. Yes. Eventually?---Eventually but not as it was happening. All right. Now, did you see the police the following day? ---Yes. And again do you recall who picked you up?---Yes. Who was that?---That Scottish detective. Mm hm?---And Fennenham. And the same time in the morning?---Yes. Did you know that they were going to come a third time? ---No. No idea at all. It was a shock to me. Every morning it happened it was a shock. Did you have a job at the time?---No. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6443

D34/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: How old were you? I can work it out myself, can't I? You would have been - - ?---I was about 19. About 19. What, were you unemployed or a student? ---Unemployed. Again taken back to Morley, were you?---Yes. Do you recall the nature of the request or instruction that made you get in the car and go with them? It's probably not a very clear question. Did they put you under arrest on that occasion or just demand that you go with them?---I can't recall being under arrest but I can recall them definitely saying, "You're coming with us." Now, on this occasion tell us what happened at Morley? ---Say that again, sorry? On this third day what happened at Morley?---Exactly the same. It was a repeated thing. Nothing changed. Exactly the same thing. What happened day one happened right through to the end. Well, how long did this go on for? How many days?---I can definitely say - - I can definitely say I was taken in - - 4 days definitely I went in. I believe it was longer but I can assure you it was definitely 4 days. Longer, but I can confirm it was for 4 days. Did they accuse you of any offence during this period?---No. They told me that if I didn't tell them where Philip was - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6444

D35/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - tell them where Philip was, that I was going to be charged with a $17,000 break and enter, if I didn't tell the police where Philip was. I didn't know where Philip was. MR PETTIT: Did you know what $17,000 break-in they were talking about?---No. No idea?---No idea at all. I later found out that it was on a high performance place. That's what I found - - later found out, that it was on a high performance place. Don't know the address, wouldn't know where the place is or anything. How did you later find that out?---I can't actually recall. Were you in fact charged with a break and enter?---Yes. What happened about it?---About the - - about me being charged? Yes?---I got charged. They asked me to sign a statement. They said, "Look, you're not going to cough, or tell us what we want to know, well, sign this statement against yourself or tell us" and I said, "Well, I don't know where he is", and they said, "Oh well, your choice" and I said - - not realising what a signed statement meant, I was very glad to get that pen and put my name to that paper, because that was my release out. And you were released?---Yes. And you were subsequently charged, I think you've told us?---Yes, yes. Did you engage a lawyer?---Yes. Who?---Judith Fordham. And did you - - you were required at some stage to plead guilty or not guilty to that charge?---Guilty. And you pleaded guilty?---I pleaded guilty. And why was that?---I honestly couldn't tell you why. I didn't want to plead guilty because I wasn't guilty, but it was the sensible thing to do. It was just to plead guilty. Thinking back now, can you recreate for us why you thought it was a sensible thing to do?---To plead guilty? Mm?---Because if I didn't plead guilty, I would have to argue the point in court, that I wasn't guilty, I was innocent and I was just petrified. At the time, I was petrified of the police. So I just didn't want to pursue it any more. I just wanted it over with. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6445

D35/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: Just excuse me a moment. There's one entry on your conviction record list. We can have that up, if you like. It's D1025544, on the third page, thanks. The third page? Try the fourth page, please? (TO WITNESS): Is that the matter there, the 4th of October 1991, break, enter and steal, probation, 18 months?---Yes. I got 200 hours community work. Yeah, that's the one. Where did you spend that community work?---I don't - - at Balcatta Community Corrections, in the Community Corrections building. I done some work out in their factory out the back - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6446

D36/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - in their factory out the back, and I also finished my 200 hours with the people - - some people who had - - who were in with the - - I went and done some work around their house and - - and cut out my community work with - - I believe it was Maureen and Lenny Colbung. MR PETTIT: All right. Now, according to this document, you haven't been convicted of anything since - - no; you've had some recent convictions, I see, related to marijuana. Is that right?---Yes. That would have been, yeah - - yeah - - yes. Right. At the time that you elected to plead guilty to this matter, did you in fact tell your lawyer what had happened?---Yes. Now, going back to Mr Stiggants, we know from other evidence that he was arrested on the 7th of March. Did you become aware that he had been arrested?---Yes. Well, I was staying at my parents and I just stayed away from everybody. I just stayed with my parents and that was it. And then he had come through - - because, as I said, I had his belongings in mum and dad's home, and he come there to get his stuff. I see. So is this before he was arrested?---After. After he was arrested. Do you know how long after?---I believe basically straight away. Roughly straight away. Wherever he's - - wherever he's come from he might have gone somewhere else, but it was on the same - - straight - - it was - - When he came to your parents' house you were there?---Yes. Did he tell you what had been going on in his life that day?---Yes. Tell us as near as you can, and try and use - - try not to exaggerate or - - ?---Yep. No. Tell us what he said to you?---He told me that they put a bag over his head. He told me he was stripped naked, and it was very clear that they - - that he had been punched because his face was - - to me, it was black and blue. Mm hm?---And he had skin off his head. He just looked an absolute mess. Just staying for the moment with what he told you had happened, you've mentioned that he was stripped naked and had a bag over his head. Did he tell you anything else?---He told me he was electrocuted. Did he explain how that was done?---By cattle prodder. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6447

D36/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Are you sure he said that at the time?---Yep. You haven't learnt that subsequently?---No. No. Actually, he never used the word "cattle prodder". It was - - sorry; an electric jigger. Electric jigger?---Jigger. They were his exact words, were they?---Yes. Did he mention anything else? Can I just pause there for a moment and ask, have you spoken to Mr Stiggants recently?---No. When was the last time you did?---I believe it was about 4 years ago. I called in to a hotel in Northbridge and I had a beer with him for about half an hour, and then I got back to work. And that was the last time I'd seen or spoken to Philip. Did you discuss this matter with him on that occasion?---No. This was way forgotten with me and Philip. We didn't discuss this. Have you discussed with anybody, apart from Royal Commission officers, your evidence today?---Over the 10 years or 12 years or whatever it is, I have told quite a number of people, because I tell the same story over and over again - - - .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6448

D37/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - over and over again. It's vivid in my head. MR PETTIT: Have you spoken to - - in the last couple of months have you spoken to anyone who has been a witness - - ?---No. - - in these proceedings?---No. Going back to what you were told by Mr Stiggants on the day, did he mention anything of an indecent nature? ---I can't really recall. I can - - I can recall something but all I know is that they stripped him naked. He definitely told me that, because I said, "What's happened?" and he told me that. Now, you've told us now what he said and your observations of him. You tell us that his face was black and blue?---Yes. And by that you mean there were bruises on his face?---Yes. And you've told us that there was some skin off his head? ---Yes. Did you see anything else about his physical appearance? ---He could hardly walk. When he came into the house he could hardly - - we had a little step about that high. He could hardly walk up that; he was hobbling up it, and that was when I seen him on the way - - that was when I first seen Phil in the house. He was coming through, and then I said, "My God, what's happened to you?" and then he told me. I see. Did he stay with you or your parents that night? ---I can't recall if it was that night but he did stay with us. Do you know whether he went anywhere or whether he told you that he was going anywhere from your house, or from your parents' house?---Rose's, I believe. I think he was going to a friend, Rose. Rose's house. Do you know that person?---Yes. Do you know her full name?---Rose Hanna. And who was she?---A friend of Philip's. Had you met her?---Yes. There were two searches done, on the evidence that we've uncovered, of Mr Stiggants' house. One was on the 28th of February and the other was on the 5th of May. Do you know which it was when you were at the house?---Can you ask me that again, sorry? .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6449

D37/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: Yes. We know about two searches on Mr Stiggants' house?---Yes. One was on the 28th of February and the other was on the 5th of March. Do you know which of those two occurred when you were there?---It would've been the first one. Why do you say that?---Because when that happened, when they come and - - come to the house - - they come to the house expecting Philip to be there but a lady had had a car accident and Philip had left, and then I was the only one there. Mm hm. What I'm getting to, Mr Ashby, is: are you certain that there was more than 2 days between your first attendance at the police station in Morley and the arrest of Philip Stiggants?---2 days? Only 2 days? Is that what you're asking me? Yes. Is that possible?---No. It was longer. Could it have been as much as 7 days though?---Yes, it could have been. Which would mean that you were not picked up every day by police?---No. Like I said, I can definitely say 4 days but - - I know it was longer but I can give you definite I got taken away for 4 days in a row. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XN 6450

D38/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: Commissioner, I tender the conviction record for the witness, which is item - - it's not on the list, Commissioner, but it's barcode D1025544. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The criminal conviction record of Glenn Ashby, barcoded D1025544, will be exhibit 1127. EXHIBIT 1127 Mr Pettit DATE (Unstated) Criminal conviction record of Glenn Ashby. Barcode D1025544. MR PETTIT: Commissioner, we don't at the moment have scanned the transcription of proceedings for the sentencing of the witness but we'll see to their tender tomorrow. COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. MR PETTIT: No further questions, thank you, sir. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, Mr Hall. MR HALL: Yes. Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR HALL: MR HALL: Mr Ashby, were you represented when you pleaded guilty to the break and enter?---Yes. Miss Fordham?---Yes. She knew that you claimed not to have done the break?---Yes. Now, this business began, as far as you were concerned, when your house at Embleton was searched. Right?---Yes. Did you know David Higgs prior to that search being carried out?---No. Was he there when the search was carried out?---Yes. Sure of that?---Yes. So how many were there when the house was searched?---Four. Can you tell us who they were?---Dave Higgs, Detective Sergeant Molyneaux, the Scottish man and Detective Fennenham. Did you mention somebody called David Satie? or "Sattie"?---No. Did you list Higgs when you answered the question before?---Beg your pardon? .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XXN 6451

D38/3 POLICE MR HALL: Did you list David Higgs when you answered the question before?---(No audible response) I may have misheard you, you see. I've got you said Fennenham?---Yep. Les Molyneaux, the Scottish detective?---Yep. And then you said "David" somebody. I just wonder, did you say David Higgs?---David Higgs, yes. Right. So that's - - all right. So you did say it before?---Yes. Okay. And he was at Morley?---Yes. And he never touched you?---No. And you said he was decent?---He was. He was the only one that took the time out. Did you ring him up in about 1994 for some assistance?---(No audible response) Did you have a problem, a charge of some sort, and you tracked him down to where he was and asked him if he could help you and he told you he couldn't?---No. Definitely not?---Definitely not. You are, or you were, Mr Stiggants' partner?---No. Is that right?---No. You're not?---No. I was his good mate. Good mate?---Yep. Well, you know what I mean. I'm not beating around the bush. You were not his homosexual partner is what I suppose I'm saying?---Beg your pardon? You're not a homosexual partner of Stiggants'?---That's what I just said. No. I'm his friend. Okay. Did he have such a partner, do you know?---Not all the time that me and Phil were hanging around together, no. Okay. All right. Thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Pettit, do you have any questions? .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. XXN 6452

D38/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: No, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Ashby. That concludes your obligations under the summons. Thank you?---Can I go now? Yes. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: I call Robert John Wilson. .23/01/2003 ASHBY, G.J. 6453

D39/2 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, please? MR WILSON: Robert John Wilson. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? MR WILSON: No. COMMISSIONER: If you could take the Bible, then, and read out the oath aloud? ROBERT JOHN WILSON sworn: COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Sit down, please. EXAMINED BY MR PETTIT SC: MR PETTIT: Mr Wilson, a few details first; your birth date is 24 May 1968?---Yes, that's correct. And you're presently living in another State?---That's correct. But in 1988, you were here in Perth?---Yes. And I think you were then an assistant manager in the Supa Valu Supermarket at Heathridge?---Yes, that's right. You were residing in a house, along with three other persons?---Not for the entire time I worked, but yes, I was. Yeah. In Malaga. In Malaga; and who were those other persons?---My fiancee, (...name suppressed...), Arran and his girlfriend. And by "Arran", you mean Arran Reynolds?---Yes. Arran Reynolds who was subsequently convicted of an armed robbery?---That's correct. In fact, an armed robbery of the supermarket at which you worked?---That's correct. Were you on duty on the day Arran Reynolds committed the robbery?---Myself and the store manager were on duty, yes. Yes. The store manager's name, Alan Wilson?---That's correct. But he's unrelated to you?---No, no relationship whatsoever. This was an evening on which the store was open till 9 pm?---Yeah, would've been a Thursday night, late night trade. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6454

D39/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: And at what time of the day was the robbery committed?---After we closed the store, so after 9.00. You were still there, at closing?---Yes. Myself and the store manager were the last to leave. The store manager had some money with him?---He had a briefcase, and yeah, he normally put the money in there, yeah. And take it where?---To the owner's place. Not to a bank?---Not to my knowledge, no. Tell us what happened that evening?---We'd done our normal security checks, closing the back door, getting everyone out the store, normal cashing-up routines. We both came out the front door, which is into a large car park. My fiancee was waiting there for me in my car. Alan had his car parked at the rear of the complex and there was a laneway 50 metres or 20 metres from the front entrance of the store, so normally, "I'll see you tomorrow", whatever. So I walked over to my car and he went off down the alleyway. Got in the car and just as we were just about to drive off, Alan had come back through the laneway with blood coming from his head. We both got out. My fiancee took off her jumper and put that on his head. I ran to a Chinese shop that was still open next to the little laneway and used their phone to ring the police and an ambulance. I had to stay on the phone until the police arrived. Then went back out. I wasn't allowed to go with Alan, because we were good friends, to the hospital. I had to stay. By then there was detectives on the scene. I think the uniform police were the first to arrive. So I let them back into the store, and it just went from there. Questions were asked, etcetera. Now, your girlfriend, or fiancee at the time, (...name suppressed...), she was also an employee at the Supa Valu at that time?---Yes, that's correct. Which is how you met her?---That's right. Yeah. Detectives attended that evening, I think you've said. Do you remember their names?---Yes, I do. I remember Detective Griffiths. There was another one, but I don't know his name, I can't be sure who it was. Were there just the two detectives?---Oh, there was police everywhere. I remember there were two with me at that stage, but there was police everywhere. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6455

D40/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Were you interviewed that evening?---I was taken back to the station, yes. I don't recall a formal - - I didn't sign anything, put it that way. They just asked a lot of questions, put it to me that it was an inside job and I was the one. I think I didn't get out of that station till about 1 am on the Friday morning. Then I went back home until the next day for work. I want to show you this document. It's D1025520. I can show you the hard copy if you wish, but is that your handwriting?---That's my signature. Mm hm?---Possibly. Yeah; that's possibly mine, yeah. Have a look at the last page, please - page 3?---Yeah. That would be mine, yeah. That is your handwriting?---That's definitely my signature so, yeah, that looks like my handwriting. Well, no; it doesn't follow. You should take a little more care. It doesn't follow that if it's your signature it's all written in your hand. Do you not recognise whether that's your handwriting or not?---I know I don't do my "l"s like that. Well, we'll come back to that if you're not sure?---Or my "i"s like - - actually, no. I'd have to say I don't think that is mine. Now, you'll see on that last page it is dated 5.5.88?---Yep. Can you say whether that's your printing?---Yeah. I'd say that would be my printing. And that's the day of the robbery; is that correct?---Oh, okay. Possibly, yeah. I can't remember. Go back to the first page; you see that written in the second paragraph: "At approximately 9 pm on Thursday May the 5th 1988 I

was in the Supa Valu store assisting the manager, Alan Wilson."

WITNESS: Well, that would be the correct date then, yes. MR PETTIT: Now, you think that on the particular night you were taken to a police station, do you?---Wanneroo CIB. Wanneroo CIB. And it's possible, is it, that you signed this statement at Wanneroo that evening?---Yep. Yeah. I'd have to say that, yeah; that's true. Yes. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6456

D40/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Perhaps I should tender that, Commissioner. It's item - - COMMISSIONER: Yes. I've got the - - MR PETTIT: You have the item there? COMMISSIONER: - - barcode here. The statement of Robert John Wilson, dated the 5th of May 1988, barcoded D1025520, will be exhibit 1128. EXHIBIT 1128 Mr Pettit DATE 5.5.88 Statement of R.J. Wilson, barcode D1025520 MR PETTIT: You may not recall now, but can you say which officer assisted you to make that statement?---I'd say Detective Burton, but I'm not 100 per cent sure for that night. Now, on that first evening I think you've already intimated that it was either - - you were either accused or it was suggested that this was an inside job?---That's correct. Yes. And was it put directly to you that you were party to the theft - the robbery?---Yes. Directly?---Yes. And what did you say to that?---I told them it was a load of bull. That he was my friend and that I wanted to go to the hospital and be with him, but I wasn't allowed; that I had to escort - - go back to the - - to the station to give a statement. You told them, I presume, that - - no; I withdraw that. Did they explain to you why they thought it might have been an inside job?---No. Not at all. I just remember fairly clearly, "This looks more and more like an inside job", and then it was put to me that I was the inside person, which I denied, but they continued to follow that by pestering me for - - to give them staff names that I thought may have been the inside person. Now, sticking with this first night, you're taken back to Wanneroo, you've made the statement?---Yep. It has been suggested to you that it was an inside job and that you were the insider - - - .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6457

D41/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - and that you were the insider?---Yes. Can you recall how long you were at Wanneroo that evening?---I'd say probably 3 hours. So you were released, what, in the early hours of the morning?---Yeah, it was about - - it was after 1 am. Did you have your car with you?---No. My fiancee had either waited, or came back. I can't remember, but I wasn't driving. And you went home?---Yes, I did. And was home, at that point, the premises you shared with Arran Reynolds?---Yes, it was. I - - I assume I went back there, yes. Did you see Arran Reynolds that night?---No, I did not. I mean, it was 1 am, if he was there, he was probably in bed. I don't know, but I did not see him, no. Going back to your time at Wanneroo CIB, did anything happen during the course of that evening, that you think was untoward?---No. Not - - not that night, no. You went back to work the next day, did you?---Yes, I did. About 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning, yeah. But I think police attended some time after?---Yes, that's correct. They came to the Supa Valu store?---Yes, that's correct. And spoke to the manager?---There was - - yeah, another lady there that was running the store then, yes. She was running the store because - -?---Alan was out of - - Was incapacitated?---That's correct. What was her name?---Oh, no, I can't recall her name. And you were invited to go with the police?---Yes. They went to see her, to say that they wanted to take me for just 10 or 15 minutes, which they did. When you say "they", can you - -?---There was three detectives, Detective Stevens, Detective Burton, and Detective Griffiths. Did they suggest you went with them?---They said they wanted me to accompany them, so I got in the unmarked car. Detective Griffiths was driving. Detective Stevens was in the front .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6458

D41/2 POLICE passenger seat. I was in the - - behind the passenger seat and Detective Burton was beside me. MR PETTIT: Where did you go?---We went down to Heathridge Park and parked in the car park there. Detective Burton then handcuffed me, then proceeded to hit me in the stomach with a closed fist. Were your hands handcuffed in front of you or behind you?---Behind my back. And you were still in the car?---Still in the car. They had just been saying that I'd been lying, and then I remember Detective Stevens saying, "I think that'll be enough for the handcuffs", so they were then removed, and then we went back to CIB Wanneroo. What happened there?---Nothing untoward happened that I can recall then, at that stage. You were asked questions, I presume?---Yeah, I - - yeah, just asked questions. About the robbery and your involvement in it?---Yes, I would say that's correct. Did you tell them that you were involved?---I told them that I was not involved. Were there any questions asked about (...name suppressed...)?---Not that I can recall, no. Were they asking you questions about any other staff, apart from yourself?---Yes. They had put forward names of other staff members - - - .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6459

D42/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - other staff members and I had said, "I suppose so." I don't know. I didn't associate with any other staff except for Alan. It had been put to me that it was a robbery that had gone wrong, that Alan and I had organised it and it had gone horribly wrong, which I also denied. MR PETTIT: Mm hm. And you were released and you went back to work?---Yeah, and it was probably 2 hours later, yeah, I was released, taken back to the shop, yes. And nothing untoward - apart from being unjustly accused, in your view, nothing untoward - happened on that occasion? ---At the station, that's correct, yeah. Back to work, so what's the next thing that happened of significance?---It would've been probably a few days later I was collected from work again. Same story, just for a short few questions. I was taken straight back to Wanneroo CIB. No diversions this time?---No, no. And the same detectives?---Yes. The same three were there, yes. Back to the station. What happened there?---I remember sitting down at a desk. That's when I thought we were doing this interview you showed me there, but it was a typed one obviously then. Detective Burton was typing out my statement. I remember getting bustled into another room because they were bringing someone else in who - - either they didn't want me to see him or vice versa. I can't remember. It was just a small - - probably an interview room. One I hadn't been in before. The door was closed. I was probably in there for 2 minutes. I got quite scared because on the back of the door there was a coathanger that had been pulled apart and some garden hose threaded along the long length and then it was reput together in a noose-like manner. I mean, my brain just put two and two together. That could go over someone's head and be pulled. Right. You were in this room for how long did you say? ---Two minutes probably. Two?---Yeah, two. I think they just stuck me in there while they got someone else into the station. You were taken back out of the room?---And put back at that interview desk where the typewriter was, yeah. And the record of interview continued?---That's correct. Now, during the taking of that statement there was some .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6460

D42/4 POLICE mention, I think, of firearms?---Yeah. Detective - - it was Detective Burton taking my record of - - typing it out. Detective Griffiths and Detective Stevens came in the front door. Detective Stevens I think went to a - - I don't know, probably a gun case on the wall or something, I can't remember, and Detective Stevens had come in with a shotgun and they were - - the three detectives were talking about doing a raid and they made a reference to me, as to what they would do with me. I was then subsequently handcuffed, my hands behind my back again. Detective Griffiths came up close to me with the shotgun, pointed it at me. Detective Burton was behind me and Detective Stevens was to the right but in front. One of the two that weren't holding the gun had told me to open my mouth and they yelled it out loud, so I did, and then Detective - - Detective Griffiths stuck the shotgun in my mouth and said, "You're not going to give us any trouble." It was probably in there, I don't know, 5 seconds probably, then he took it out and then I was sat back down, and to the best of my knowledge I don't think a raid occurred. I remember the interview carried on after that. MR PETTIT: When the shotgun was put in your mouth what can you tell us about the gun - - - .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6461

D43/3 POLICE MR PETTIT: - - - about the gun?---It was a single barrel. It was not a pump action. It was a brown - - brown stock, gunmetal barrel. It didn't have a sight on the end of the barrel. It didn't have one. Do you know whether or not it was loaded?---No, I don't. Was it placed between your teeth?---Yes, it was. Or further into your mouth?---Yes, onto my tongue. Yes. Was anything said while that was being done?---Just that I'm not going to give them any hassles. Was there any mention of a quarry?---Yeah. After that - - it could have been before, but I know there was a death threat made to me and to whoever it was they needed to catch for this armed robbery, that it was nothing for them to take someone to the quarry and shoot them and leave them there and no one would find the body and after the shotgun incident there were references made back to the quarry and the shotgun, whenever I disagreed with what was being put in the statement. While the shotgun was in your mouth, did any of the detectives say anything to any of the other detectives?---It was like a joke to them, all of them. Do you remember anything specific that was said?---No. None of them objected, none of them - - they were all party to what was going on and it was like a big joke to them. Did one or other of them intervene to stop this?---Definitely not. While the gun was in your mouth, I think you've told us it was Detective Burton who had the gun?---No. Detective Griffiths. I'm sorry?---Detective Burton was taking the statement. Are you sure about that?---Yes. Sure which officer had the gun when it was in your mouth?---Yeah, I'm - - I'm 100 per cent sure it was Detective Griffiths that stuck the shotgun in my mouth. Detective Stevens was to the right and Detective Burton was behind me and took the statement. Could there be any confusion about that in your mind, which officer did what?---Definitely not now. The reason I ask, Mr Wilson, is that you will recall you were interviewed by Royal Commission officers on the telephone?--- Yes and I - - I do realise that I had swapped the names .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6462

D43/3 POLICE around, but I had, like 2 hours notice to recollect 15 years of past stuff that I'd put behind me. I thought I'd dealt with it and I had informed the Royal Commission officer that I think I'd mixed the names up. MR PETTIT: You told somebody at the Royal Commission after the event, did you?---No, after the record of interview. Well, just for completeness I need to go through this?---Sure. You were asked: "You say that Griffiths was standing behind you at the

time the shotgun was raised to your face?" "That's correct." "Was he holding you or not?" You answered: "Yeah, he may have been holding my wrists but I don't

know." WITNESS: Yeah. MR PETTIT: You were asked: "Okay. You said Burton was the one with the shotgun?" You answered: "Yes, that's correct." You were asked: "And he just said to you `Open up your mouth'" - -

sorry, "He has just said to you `Open up your mouth', has he?"

You answered: "I don't know if he said it or one of the detectives." WITNESS: Yeah. MR PETTIT: "Yes." Question: "And you complied with that?" .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6463

D44/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: Answer: "Yes, yes, I did. Question: "Yep, and that's when Burton has placed it in your - -

placed the barrel of the shotgun in your mouth?" "Yes, that's right." Now, your evidence today is that that's incorrect?---That is correct, yes. Sorry, it is incorrect?---As in, it was not Detective Burton that stuck the shotgun in my mouth. I had gotten my detectives mixed up on that day. Mm hm. Just to be sure about it, can you describe your recollection of Detective Griffiths?---A very large man. Yeah, very imposing, big man, with fairish sort of hair. Detective Burton had black hair and was much shorter than he was. Were they all Australian?---Yeah, I suppose - - yeah. Now, after the incident with the shotgun, you returned to the completion of the statement?---Yes. That's correct. You were sitting at a desk?---That's correct. You were asked questions, and as you answered, the questions were typed down? Questions and answers were typed down?---Yeah, they were typed down. They were rephrased and put back to me, "Now, would it be fair for me to say thing?" and then it was typed in, as to what that officer had said. If I had disagreed with the way they were going, you know, the reference back to the quarry or something, you know? "Don't give us any hassles here; it's been a long day" or whatever. So towards the end, I just went, "Yeah, whatever." Did things come to be included in that statement which were untrue?---That is correct. Perhaps we should have a look at it. It's D1025519. (TO WITNESS): Now, you would not have seen this statement for some time, I presume?---A long time. You were then 19? That's correct, isn't it?---Yeah, I would have been, yeah. Yes. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6464

D44/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: And in the large paragraph in about the centre of the page, it said: "About the 28th of April 1988, one of the persons I

was residing with, a Arran Reynolds, came up to me and began asking questions concerning the routine of the Supa Valu store at Heathridge. That is, how the money was transferred from the store, who conveyed the money from the store, to where it was conveyed to, and what times of the day it was transferred. I asked him why he wanted to know this information, to which he replied, `I'm thinking about doing a robbery and getting the money'."

Was any of that true?---No, it wasn't. MR PETTIT: "As he questioned me, I gave him the answers, knowing

that he was planning to do the robbery on the Supa Valu store where I was working."

Is that true?---No. Well, why did you sign it?---Because I was scared for my life because of the threats they'd made to me. Did you honestly believe the officers might do you harm if you failed to make a false confession?---After what had happened, yeah. On the next page, still talking about Arran Reynolds, it's typed: "Whilst he was questioning me about the store, he told

me I wouldn't miss out and would get a share of the money."

Is any of that true?---No. And there are other incriminating statements in this record of interview, and you say they are all untrue, do you?---Yes, I do. I tried getting this statement stopped in my court case - - - .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6465

D45/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - in my court case. MR PETTIT: Yes. We'll come to that in a moment. Can you go to the last page, and you might - - I wonder if we can rotate it 90 degrees? WITNESS: Thank you. MR PETTIT: Thank you. (TO WITNESS): Is that your handwriting?---Yes, it is. Do you recall being invited or asked to write that out?---I was told to write it out, yes. And that is your signature?---Yes, it is. Commissioner, I tender that statement dated 17 May 1988. COMMISSIONER: The statement of Robert John Wilson of the 17th of May 1988, barcoded D1025519, will be exhibit 1129. EXHIBIT 1129 Mr Pettit DATE 17.5.88 Statement of R.J. Wilson, barcode D1025519 MR PETTIT: After signing that statement I think you were - - were you charged?---I believe I was, yes. Fingerprinted and that, yes. Were you taken to another police station?---Possibly, yes. I can't recall. And in any event, you weren't taken into custody. You weren't put into a prison or a holding cell?---No, I - - no. I think I got bail or whatever you call it. You think bail. Do you remember where you went?---How do you mean, where I went? Well, where did you spend the next evening? At your parents' place?---Yeah. Possibly at my parents', yeah. Incidentally, did you tell your parents what had happened? At the time did you tell them?---I didn't tell my father and mother until we'd gotten home, because I didn't want my dad to get involved and be arrested also for what had happened, because I knew he'd get really angry. So, yeah; I - - I think I spent the night there. Were your parents at the police station, were they?---I'm pretty sure they were waiting at the CIB out the front, yeah. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6466

D45/1 POLICE MR PETTIT: Now, you retained the services of a lawyer?---Yes, I did. Who was that?---Richard Bayly. And the matter went to trial?---Yes, it did. Supreme Court. You pleaded obviously not guilty, and I think there was what we call a voir dire, but there was a - - part of the trial was devoted to whether or not what you're telling us about occurred?---Yeah. I remember there were times when the jury had to leave and they weren't allowed there, etcetera, and discussions were made about the statement. And at the end of the day I think you were acquitted?---Yes, I was. It was a 3-day trial, I think. On your oath today, Mr Wilson, did you have any involvement in that robbery?---No, I did not. You're aware that Arran Reynolds intimated that you did?---Yes. I found that out in the trial, yes. Do you have any explanation why he would say such a thing?---No. He probably thought that I probably gave the police his name as the list of names that they had pulled out of me from possible candidates for this robbery. From staff to anyone I could think of I threw at them. In fact, it's likely you did give them Arran Reynolds' name?---Possibly, yeah. They probably put it to me because he was living - - I was living at his house, yeah. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6467

D46/4 POLICE MR PETTIT: Can you say how this episode has affected you? ---Been a few years. Otherwise, I'd be looking over my shoulder. My heart would always leap whenever I met detectives just, you know, on a casual basis. About 5 years ago I burnt all the manuscripts and things that I had of - - my copy, to just finally let go of it. I've been slowly getting back to trusting detectives. I don't have a problem with uniformed police but where I'm living I have a close involvement with the detectives and uniformed police there and I trust those guys and I know them fairly well; but it's taken a long time to get to that point. Did you ever make, apart from at your trial, a complaint about these events?---I was looking at doing something like that. I just felt the intimidation - - because after the trial - I think it was after the trial, yes - myself and Alan Wilson, yeah, we'd go night-clubbing or to the casino or whatever, and I remember being at the casino and the three detectives that I have mentioned earlier were there too, overtly watching us and, you know, giving us a smile or a wave. I assume they thought we had all this money and we were going to launder it. So, no, I didn't because to me, you know - - they were still there in my face so I didn't. I didn't want to. I was just scared of them. I just didn't want to have any part of it. I take it you and Alan Wilson remained friends?---Yeah. Yeah. Even to this day, yeah. Commissioner, although it's not scanned, I tender as a physical exhibit the transcript of proceedings in 145 of 1988, The Queen against Robert John Wilson, which is barcode D1025547. The first day of the trial is 15 March 1989. COMMISSIONER: That's the complete transcript of the trial, is it? MR PETTIT: Yes, it is, Commissioner. It has in it the voir dire. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, the transcript of the trial of the witness on the 15th and 16th of March 1989, barcoded D1025547, will be exhibit 1130. MR PETTIT: Commissioner, I'm afraid I've misled you. It's just been pointed out to me. It for some reason is in three separate barcodes, the entire trial. That is 47, as I have given you, then 48, then 49. Perhaps they can all be the one exhibit though. COMMISSIONER: Yes. There's a third edition, is there? MR PETTIT: Yes, the third is - - .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6468

D46/4 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Or is it the 16th and 17th? MR PETTIT: That's correct, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR PETTIT: 15, 16 and 17 of March 89. COMMISSIONER: Well, if I can start off afresh, the transcript of evidence in the witness's trial on the 15th of March 1989, barcoded D1025547, will be exhibit 1130. The transcript of the trial on the 16th of March 1989, barcoded D1025548, will be exhibit 1131, and the transcript of the witness's trial on the 17th of March 1989, barcoded D1025549, will be exhibit 1132. EXHIBIT 1130 Mr Pettit DATE 15.3.89 Transcript of trial - barcode D1025547 EXHIBIT 1131 Mr Pettit DATE 16.3.89 Transcript of trial - barcode D1025548 EXHIBIT 1132 Mr Pettit DATE 17.3.89 Transcript of trial - barcode D1025549 MR PETTIT: And finally, Commissioner, I don't think I have yet tendered this witness's conviction record, which is D1025532. COMMISSIONER: Is that numbered on the list? MR PETTIT: No, I'm told it's not. COMMISSIONER: Yes. If I can just have the barcode again. .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XN 6469

D47/2 POLICE MR PETTIT: D1025532. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, the conviction record of the witness, barcoded D1025532, will be exhibit 1133. EXHIBIT 1133 Mr Pettit DATE (Unstated) Conviction record of R.J. Wilson barcode D1025532 MR PETTIT: That completes the questions I have for this witness, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Hall, do you have any interest in this witness? MR HALL: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR HALL: MR HALL: Mr Wilson, firstly, do you know if Alan Wilson was ever charged in relation to this break and enter?---No, he was not. Now, on the night, after you'd made the phone call, you said you were taken back to the CIB by two detectives, one you named as Detective Griffiths?---That is correct. And the other, you couldn't name?---I can't be 100 per cent who it was, so I can't put a name to it. Well, was it one of the three - -?---It could have been, but my memory is vague. I can't be 100 per cent sure. So you don't know whether there were four all-up, or throughout the performance?---There was another one, but he did not partake in verbal or physical abuse of me, but I do remember another detective, McRoberts, being at the station for a period of time. During the gun episode that you've related?---Did I what, sorry? During the shotgun - - ?---Yep. - - episode?---I only remember the three detectives. Well, when can you recall this fourth detective being there?---I just remember him walking around, either when I got in or when I was leaving. He was not part of the three that were there. Would it be fair to say no active involvement by him at all?---Yeah. As I said, he was not there verbally or .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XXN 6470

D47/2 POLICE physically, and I don't believe he saw what went on. I would agree with that. MR HALL: Could in fact have been in the station on other matters?---Quite possibly, yes. Okay. And you've got to know the names of these three police officers by reason of the trial?---No. By their constant coming to get me. That - - I remember - - I knew their names before the trial. Yes. Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER: Mr Pettit? MR PETTIT: Nothing arising, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, thank you, Mr Wilson. You're excused from further attendance under the summons?---Thank you. WITNESS WITHDREW MR PETTIT: And that's the evidence for the day on this matter, sir. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well then. We'll adjourn now until 10.45 tomorrow morning. AT 3.30 PM HEARING ADJOURNED UNTIL 10.45 AM FRIDAY, 24TH JANUARY 2003 .23/01/2003 WILSON, R.J. XXN 6471

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY CORRUPT OR CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY WESTERN AUSTRALIAN POLICE OFFICERS COMMISSIONER: G.A. Kennedy AO QC Held at Perth on the 23rd day of January, 2003 Counsel Assisting Mr K. Pettit SC Appearances Mr M.R. Hall Mr M.I. Crispe Copyright in this document is reserved to the Crown in right of the State of Western Australia. Reproduction of this document (or part thereof, in any format) except with the prior written consent of the Attorney General is prohibited. .23/01/2003 6472