religare enterprises q1 2013 earnings call 8 aug’12 › conference call ›...
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Religare Enterprises Q1 2013 Earnings Call 8 Aug’12
Operator Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Religare Enterprises Limited Q1 FY13 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen‐only mode. And there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions at the end of today's presentation. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Kishore Belai. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on our first quarter FY13 results conference call. I'm Kishore Belai Head of Investor Relations at Religare. We are joined on this call today by Mr. Shachindra Nath our Group CEO; Mr. Anil Saxena our Group CFO and members of our Senior management. Before we start the proceedings. I would like to mention that certain statements that may be made on this call may be forward‐looking statements and we do not undertake to publicly update them.
A statement in this regard has been included in the invitation for this call. On this call Mr. Nath will first give you an update on the company's performance for the quarter. And we will subsequently open the lines for Q&A. I now turn the call over to Mr. Mark.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer I have mentioned in our last call that Religare Health Insurance Company have received R2 and R3 approvals from IRDA and wants to commence commercial operation in quarter two FY13. I am happy to report that RHICL's individuals and Group product known as Care and Group Care respectively have been approved by IRDA and in fact RHICL wrote its policy exactly a month ago. RHICL is already live from 30 offices in 28 cities nationwide utilizing the existing Religare network to the extent possible. And as I have mentioned in the past, at the lowest possible OpEx.
The total pre‐operating expenses until launch were under Rs.290 million and we believe this will set the new benchmark for health insurance industry. Furthermore in just first month of operations, RHICL has collected a premium of Rs.73.5 million. In pursuance of our objective of maximizing synergy within the Group Religare Securities Limited has obtained IRDA's constraint for acting as corporate agent for the health insurance company.
With our 800,000 customer Religare Securities is well position to promote health insurance product I am confident that Religare Health Insurance will become a unique provider of protection to consumers given the strong linkages with healthcare delivery and financial services distribution within the extended group. Let me now talk a little about the environment which has created the context for our operating and financial performance in Q1 FY13.
I had mentioned on our last call that we expected the markets to remain challenge in the foreseeable future as you will see on slide two and see of our investor presentation this was actually played out in quarter one FY13. GDP growth has contracted and the outlook has deteriorated and all segments of the financial services industry has been negatively impacted.
Despite this back drop Religare continue to focus on execution. We have tried to maintain the momentum generated since Q3 FY12 and deliver consistent financial performance. Let me give you an overview of our consolidated financial which you can see from slide four to six.
Consolidated revenue for quarter one rose 14% on year‐on‐year basis to Rs.8,606 million we reported at PBT level profit of Rs.851 billion for quarter one against 870 million for quarter four FY12. Reflecting a consistent improvement in our operating performance. At PAT level after adjusting for exceptional items and dividend distribution tax. We reported a profit of Rs.402 million for the quarter under review as against Rs.403 million in quarter four FY12.
Firmly establishing our profitability trajectory. Note that quarter one FY13 financial are not truly comparable with quarter one FY12 financials as Religare Capital Market was consolidate in Religare Enterprises financial for quarter one FY12, but not in quarter one FY13.
Let me now give you a brief update on each of our portfolio companies which has been summarized on slide seven to nine of the presentation. Religare Finvest Limited which houses our lending business continue to deliver strong operational performance. Total lending portfolios increased from Rs.9.8 to Rs.117 billion, net interest margin is stood at 3.85% reflecting a decline of 43 basis points from the previous quarter.
NIM has come down primarily because we have securitized part of our high yielding portfolio and the difference between the acquisition yield and the assignment yield is now accounted in the other income line, therefore not reflected in the NIM.
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I would like to highlight that under our accounting policy we recognize the gains from assignments over the life of the asset, we do not book the gains upfront. There has also been an increase in the weighted average cost of fund during the quarter.
Operating fficiency continue to improve as reflected in the decline in Opex/ANR ratio which came down by 18 basis points 2.02%. Our gross and net NPA on a 90 day basis stood at 0.94% and 0.59% respectively, higher by 8 to 9 basis points sequentially. Religare Securities Limited, our retail broking arm has been impacted by the absolute decline in market wide cash equities turn over and this has over shadowed the operational improvement we have made in our business. However, our effort are paying off as our equity broking market share was basically steady, and our client continues to increase gradually.
We are currently standing at approximately 828,000 clients. Some of the broking performed better, there is a 20 basis points increase in the market share to 2.7%. And increase in the client base to approximately 164,000. The decline in the cash volume has impact industry wide revenue. Our retail broking business reported quarter‐on‐quarter revenue decline of Rs. 147 million or 12%.
However, the negative impact on PBT level was restricted to Rs. 20 million.
Religare Asset Management Company Limited which operates our India asset management business witnessed a steady quarter, characterized by an increase in institutional and retail asset under management. The early results for our retail recent distribution tie up with major banks have been very encouraging. RAMC stayed very close to the breakeven mark reporting a marginal loss of Rs. 10 million.
In Religare Macquarie Wealth Management Limited, our wealth management joint venture, asset under management stood at Rs. 27.5 billion as on 30 June, 2012. Our efforts towards improving operational efficiency have borne fruit as AUM ‐‐ relationship manager has increased to 23% quarter‐on‐quarter to Rs. 331 million, or nearly double what was a year ago.
Our life insurance business, AEGON Religare Life Insurance Company continues to build franchise with an increase in customer base to around 227,000 customers while ensuring that capital is used efficiently. Just to remind you, the investment structural allows Religare to participate fully in the equity upside in the venture while enjoying a guaranteed flow return.
Moving on to Religare Global Asset Management. Our total asset under management totaling US$13.4 billion as on 30 June, 2012 and is executing to it's plan. Northgate Capital one of our existing FEA has successfully completed fund raised of around US$700 million, since the acquisition by Religare.
RGAM continues to build its business primarily around an inorganic strategy, but we are supplementing this with two green field ‐‐ in areas where where have the skill base and the right network. The first ‐‐ affiliate has already been incorporated and has received in principal approval from the Singapore Stock Exchange for listing its first fund, a business trust that will own and operate healthcare related infrastructure assets.
You would recall that consolidate financial statement of Religare Capital Market Limited has been excluded from Religare Enterprises consolidated financial statements with effect from 1st of October, 2011. However the business continues to operationally integrated with the rest of the Religare. The capital market continues to remain challenge and within the constraint of market Religare Capital Market continues to improve its operating matrix. Be it client ‐‐, research converge or market share.
You'll find this details on slide 18 of the presentation. We believe that the economic outlook will continue to be clouded for some more time and the market will continue to be challenged. Religare has invested substantial effort over past three quarter to make its portfolio companies more flexible and resilient so that we can sail through these turbulent water.
We continue to monitor the performance of each of our portfolio companies and benchmark their performance to the peer Group. To reiterate, in Religare Finvest our focus is to achieve benchmark ROE while maintaining asset quality. In Religare Securities we complete our transaction to an asset like model our immediate focus is on attaining absolute profitability and generate superior ROE in next year. In Religare Asset Management the effort is for our funds to With that I conclude the opening remarks. The senior management team and I would be glad to address any queries that you may have. Thank you.
Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations Operator we can now open the lines for questions.
Questions And Answers
Operator
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Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen we will now begin with the question‐and‐answer session. [Operator Instructions]. We have the first question from the line of Vikas Garg from Fidelity. Please go ahead.
Vikas Garg Thanks for taking my question. It's on the recent development on that Deccan Chronicle deal. So just wanted to understand the rational of you taking exposure in that company and as of now what's the status of that particular exposure?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Thank you, Vikas. Vikas, specific client related questions we are bound by the client confidential on an investor call if you have any specific question with relating to the company's performance we have are more than happy to answer. But, with respect to any specific exposure I don't think so that we can disclose that because we have client specific confidentiality agreement, but broadly and generally I think for Deccan Chronicle every lender into the market has exposure towards them and they are suffering with liquidity crisis and that's well‐known.
Vikas Garg Okay, it's okay. Thank you very much. That was my question.
Operator Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Kajal Gandhi from ICICI Direct. Please go ahead.
Kajal Gandhi Good afternoon sir, Kajal. Sir wanted to know, on your 10th slide you have mentioned Indian cash equities market share of 1.8%. So you mean to say cash market turnover of yours or entire including cash ‐‐? It is the same, hello.
Operator Kajal Gandhi Yeah wanted to understand that 1.8% market share that were talking in there cash equities so is it only cash your talking or the entire?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Where you're...
Kajal Gandhi Slide 10 also it is showing. Third line on slide ten.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer It's actually slide nine.
Kajal Gandhi Okay. Slide nine.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer That's 1.8% relates to only institutional business.
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Kajal Gandhi No but institutional only cash of cash plus FNO
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer It's only cash.
Kajal Gandhi So 1.8% cash for the institutional cash turnover whatever it maybe.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer That is correct.
Kajal Gandhi Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer What do you mean by where.
Kajal Gandhi Denominator?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Basically we use the...
Operator Hello? This is the operator. We have lost the lines for the management once again. Kindly stay connected. This is the operator. We have the lines for the management. Please go ahead.
Kajal Gandhi Yeah. Sir just
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Sorry Kajal... we unfortunately the line got disconnected. So what we were saying is that this is whatever is reported as institutional market volume we take that and we take our volume and divide the two.
Kajal Gandhi Yeah that's because I am not sure whether separately institutional cash we'll be able to get that's why.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer You can get that.
Kajal Gandhi
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Okay, sir. Sir and one more thing was can you tell me what is the outlook on your capital market lending book are you seeing any stress there?
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited Kajal, Kavi here. See one thing that you would look at is the number in our balance sheet on capital market has been same over last five quarters and that is primarily because of the way the market performance is ours, we don't see too
Kajal Gandhi So the outstanding is this much, if you can share what must have been in the last year disbursement in this segment.
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited What you can clearly see is on slide 11, the number by each products and where you see that 2,300 crore in June '11 quarter versus June '12. So over five quarter we have the number.
Kajal Gandhi Yeah.
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited It has remain the same. It remain 2,300 crore and thereabout.
Kajal Gandhi Sir but these are short‐term loans so it must have got repaid and then you must have disbursed fresh to maintain this outstanding.
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited That is right.
Kajal Gandhi So that's why I wanted to know what must the fresh disbursement in last one year
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited I don't have the fresh disbursements, because that's not the way we track this business more from the lines that are sanction and the draw down on those line. ‐‐ we will have to on to the number and we can get back to you and give you the number.
Kajal Gandhi Okay. Thank you.
Operator Rahul Jain Yeah hi. Just couple of questions. If I can look at your slide 11. The NIM for this quarter has come off by about ‐‐ basis point. So just wanted to understand what is the reason for that is there any reclassification or one off that has taken place in this quarter?
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited
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Okay. I think this point was mentioned Shachindra in the opening remarks as well. That there are two reasons driving this NIM down in this quarter. A some of our high yielding assets we had securitized during this quarter. And we don't recognize obviously the income up fronts it is recognized over a term of the assets, but obviously the yield from the level would obviously come down because these off balance sheet now. Second is increased cost of fund which is combined both these have resulted in 235 bps of this NIM coming down.
Rahul Jain So what exactly is this, what is mentioned in the note below that there is some revised computation methodology.
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited What?
Rahul Jain Yeah on the bottom of the slide there is this comment which says that NIM for past quarter have been restated as per revised computation methodology.
Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations That's right Rahul this is Kishor. What we have done is that in the past there were certain miscellaneous income items that would be incidental to the yields on the portfolio that would get accounted as part of NIMs, what we have done is we have retrospectively restated the NIMs excluding those items.
Rahul Jain Okay. So do you mean fee income earlier was also included as part of NIM?
Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations There are items like foreclosure charges et cetera that have gone out now.
Rahul Jain Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations Yeah, I think first of all the overall vintage of the portfolio if you really carefully look at it it's not a same number for all five quarters when we change from 90 days to 180 days is when we can see the jump in the curve there.
So it's basically that our NPA recognition happens at 90 days, where the first two quarters that you're seeing in the sheet are at 180 days as this for the NBFC sector. Now, in absolute 90 days in fact that is at about 0.4% if I was to state at 180 likewise against 0.21, or 0.27 that we have September '11 is the quarter ending that number is 0.4%. That is how you would look at the market at 180 days plus.
Now in a portfolio which is seasoning 0.4% gross NPA number is what should I say the markets are around 2%, 2.5% and that what happens even the portfolio matures. So there is no real concern in the management team we have on how the NPA levels in the portfolio plus from our risk strategy over last three years what we've acquired as portfolios are completely. We have been focusing on customer credit and we have been sector agnostic. So there is no concentration risk that we have in our book on any particular sector. So it is uniform and that has spread out as our portfolio we don't see any specific issues on any particular sector.
Rahul Jain Okay, sure. That was useful. Thanks.
Operator
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Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Arvind Subramanian from IDFC. Please go ahead.
Arvind Subramanian Hi good evening. I just want to understand what is the ‐‐ in slide five it mentions charge on account of corporate dividend tax. What is this could you just explain? The 15.9 crore.
Corporate Participant This is distribution tax. So last quarter RSL paid out dividend to REL. Approximately 95 crores and this was during distribution tax on that which we have received in the current quarter and that's why account for.
Arvind Subramanian So this is Religare Finvest paid the dividend.
Corporate Participant Yeah Religare Finvest paid the dividend to Religare Enterprises. Okay. But doesn't the tax get deducted at Religare Finvest.
Corporate Participant Yeah, but we are presenting the consolidated statements so whether the tax gets deducted at ‐‐ level or any other entity, that's reflected as consolidated.
Arvind Subramanian Okay, but then why would you do and show an adjustment on this dividend tax, because you're showing an adjusted PAT.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer No this is not adjustment this is just showing real bifurcation because otherwise if we include the entire tax item your question might be how come the tax has gone so high.
Arvind Subramanian Okay, and in the suggested have you then removed the dividend also?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Dividend does not come as part of the consolidated.
Arvind Subramanian Yeah fair enough. Okay just another point on your, if you look at the next slide how is your ALM on the Religare Finvest?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer What do you mean by how is the ALM?
Arvind Subramanian
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I mean is it, what are the kind of tenures on your liabilities and asset side?
Corporate Participant Hi Arvind ALM wise we are perfectly fine currently look at our asset profile. Our short‐term assets, short‐term liabilities basically those numbers are matching. And on long‐term we have almost 6000 crore of assets and similarly liabilities are also to that extent. So basically ALM I would say it's at matched number. Because that's where I come in when I look at slide six. I mean you have current liabilities of 10,000 crores. So that means they are all maturing within one year. And non‐current of 7,000 crore. Whereas if I look at your asset side you have long‐term loans of 8000 crores and short‐term loans in advances of only 6,200. So just adding those up it does not look like may be the matching as that.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer So you are looking at the consolidated balance sheet?
Arvind Subramanian Yes, I know this is consolidated. But the loans in advances and the borrowings will be largely from the Finvest?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer If you look at the RFL numbers and that we have already disclosed RFL number also let me take you to slide number slide six, first come to the slide number 26 it talks about the RFL number on a standalone entity basis.
Arvind Subramanian Okay.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer So here the short‐term liability is 8,447 against that we have the short‐term, current asset is 7,998 so there is a marginal increase in this quarter in the current liabilities which we are hopeful that in the current quarter will get corrected.
Arvind Subramanian Okay then why is that difference arising at the consolidated level? So where is the excess either short‐term borrowing towards?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer No there can be ‐‐ because the other entity short‐term, where the short‐term assets are there short‐term liabilities are also there it can be because of the Religare security is there where we are borrowing to give the margin to stock exchange.
Arvind Subramanian Okay. But, then there again the assets would be short‐term if you are giving a margin funding right?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Arvind Subramanian Okay. But just there again I mean, even if I add say your cash and bank balances and short‐term loan I am talking about consolidated level.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer
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Right.
Arvind Subramanian If I have short‐term loans and your cash balances.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Then you should look at the total number which is 10,160 against that there is a current liability of 10,170.
Arvind Subramanian Okay, so you are talking about total ‐‐ alright. Fine.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer If we take all the current assets, then again that's again the numbers are matching.
Arvind Subramanian Okay. So, what will these trade receivables be 85 crores. This will be outside the Religare Finvest if I'm not wrong?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Yeah.
Arvind Subramanian What are...
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer It is outside Religare Finvest, yes. So what are those exactly?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer We need to just take out those numbers what exactly will be the nature of that.
Arvind Subramanian Okay.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer But this is not pertaining to Religare Finvest.
Arvind Subramanian All right fine. Okay, that's it from my side. Thank you so much.
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Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chandan Gehlot from Deutsche Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Good afternoon, sir and thank you for this opportunity. I have couple of questions.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Can you please speak slightly louder?
Chandan Singh Gehlot Yeah. I have couple of questions, let's just to start with my first question. What was the EBIT cost of borrowings in the Q4 and in the Q1 FY13?
Corporate Participant So last quarter and this quarter what is the average cost of borrowing, okay? That's question number one.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Yeah. Just if we take one by one that will helpful. Okay.
Corporate Participant So Q4 it was in the range of 11.75, 11.80.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay.
Corporate Participant Q4 and Q1 FY13 it has gone up by 25 bps. So nearer to 12.05%, 12%.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. Sir the next thing is despite there is a decrease in the bank base rate and there is improved money market. So why the cost of borrowing is still high, is it because of the some ALM mismatch which we are carrying or this is because of some demand because generally the Q1 demand for the loans are not as much compared to the last Q4 of the financial year.
Corporate Participant I got your point. Just look at towards the 2nd of March, whatever we borrowed from the market basically because of the liquidity crunch the rate was on a higher side. And that was not a very it's a short‐term loan which we took from the market. And there you know for the first quarter for the entire first quarter that led effect of that borrowing high cost borrowing was there. So first quarter the cost of fund has gone up.
Where as the impact was not visible in the March quarter. And that borrowings that has been paid, re‐paid in the current quarter basically Q1 of FY 13. So that impact will not spill over to the next quarter.
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Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. So can we see next question some decline in the cost of borrowing?
Corporate Participant We are hopeful of that. We are experiencing that only in the current quarter.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. And how much of your total liability is the variable?
Corporate Participant Chandan Singh Gehlot How much of your total liabilities is variable?
Corporate Participant Our entire loan book from the banking system is variable.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay.
Corporate Participant Yeah.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, sure. And sir also can you help me with total amount of other assets and treasury asset for the RFL?
Corporate Participant It would be in the range of around 1,500 and that includes basically I would say one is the arbitrage book what we have at the RFL level and there is a small portion of the corporate loan what we run over there. These are the two primary apart from that there is a small prop position in the bonds also, bonds and debentures of the PHUs and the good corporate triple AAA rated corporates are there.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. So this 1,500 crore figure is including both your other asset and treasury asset both.
Corporate Participant Yeah, correct.
Chandan Singh Gehlot So it got decline some the last Q4 is it correct?
Corporate Participant
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Come again. Is it decline from Q4 FY12?
Corporate Participant Yes quarter‐on‐quarter the numbers are coming down.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, okay. Another question is currently there is a monsoon deficit which everybody is now seeing and drought kind of situation. So do you think on the ground level will it impact any of SME clients by and large?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Not really, simple answer to that question is no from our side. Our overall portfolio exposure on businesses based on agriculture in negligible. We don't see anything, any challenge because of drought situation.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. Another thing recently we have read in the print media which stated now and we have seen including the Religare have done some structure transactions where they have demanded a share of profit generated from certain real‐estate projects apart from the usual debt repayment schedule. So, can you throw some light on this kind of structure?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer No, I think one as a business we are pretty much focused on SME lending as business and does not too many transactions that we do on the structured finance side and how it get out of context I can't really comment on that. But, as a business that's not something that we are actively engage and we don't do that transactions. Having said that, I think so as we said that Religare Finvest our focus is to improve our ROE on top of our standard interest margins there if we can get anything more from our borrowers we are more than happy to get it. But, unfortunately we have not had many such occasions to get that. We are more than happy for you to refer such clients who can give us profit share.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, okay. And on another ‐‐ what is the total secured portfolio proportion in this quarter?
Corporate Participant See 91% of our loan book is secured in 9% is unsecured.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, and within this 91% secured book, what is the quality, how the quality of the collateral. Is it exclusively or it's a paripassu what kind of collateral do you have? Okay. First of all about 60 odd percent of the book is loan against property.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Correct.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer And I'll come to the rest in a bit. In property our loans are at a book level less than 50% of the marketable value of the property at
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the time of disbursing this all. We can say it's a more than 2X cover when we do the loan.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer We do only first and exclusive charge. We don't do secondary charge. We don't do residual charge. We don't do paripassu.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer The balance of the book which is let say commercial assets and plant and machinery, loans against some of those, it is again first and exclusive charge and depending on various categories as per our risk grid we take 75%, 80%, 85% depending on the asset quality and the standard asset versus non‐standard assets.
So there is a complete grid against which we take exposure against those assets. And as that all secured assets, it is of course an exclusive charge. On loan against shares I have already mentioned earlier in the call, it's again a 2X cover and it's obviously exclusively charge.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. Could it ‐‐ will it be possible for you to share what is the top 10 client concentration on your capital book, capital market book?
Corporate Participant We can't comment on specific clients so won't be able to give you the concentration.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Corporate Participant Yeah sure we can provide by and large by percentages, we can it is basically customer names we won't be able to give you so we can provide that.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay.
Corporate Participant So what is the question sorry.
Chandan Singh Gehlot My question is because In the call you have mentioned Religare is not running any client concentration risk.
Corporate Participant Yes
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Chandan Singh Gehlot So idea is just to understand what kind of diversification do we have in all our business verticals? Idea is to get like top 10 client what is the total percentage of the total particular that advance book?
Corporate Participant In which segment of our lending?
Chandan Singh Gehlot All the three segments.
Corporate Participant All the three segments, I don't think so they will be negligible because we don't track on top 10 client basis because as we said it is very well diversified.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Corporate Participant Yeah.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Thank you.
Operator Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Aparna Karnik from DSP BlackRock. Please go ahead.
Aparna Karnik Yeah, good afternoon gentlemen I just had a couple of points related to some of the questions that had been asked earlier first is that, on the ALM you mentioned that overall your short‐term assets and liabilities are fairly well matched, but I just wanted to ask within next three months if you could give us a sense what are the liabilities falling due and assets, so assets also so what sort of gap is there?
And secondly in your lending booking if you could just let us have a sense in terms of how much is the exposure to the real estate sector either like through developer loans or project loans et cetera.
Corporate Participant Ravi would you answer the first one first and then...
Ravi Mehrotra, Director There is a definition which is the commercial real estate CRE as defined by RBI, and that includes developer loans, lease rental discount which is primarily basically the repayment resources from property, it is not just developer loans as per that definition that CRE exposure in our balance sheet is at 23%.
Aparna Karnik Okay.
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Ravi Mehrotra, Director All of CRE put together.
Aparna Karnik So this would include like loans to developers and lease rental discounting right? Yeah it is right.
Aparna Karnik And that doesn't include your lap‐type of exposures?
Ravi Mehrotra, Director No it is not, there are not categorized as commercial real‐estate and loan against property, I mean, let me explain that the loan against property, business is loan to an entrepreneur for his business where the collateral is a property.
Aparna Karnik Okay. So the LAP is separate from the CRE and where is this commercial real‐estate classified in your borrowings I mean, which segment do you put it in?
Corporate Participant For LAP overall from the asset book and from liability side supported by long‐term loan from the banks.
Aparna Karnik Okay. First question that I had on the ALM over the next three months if you could give a sense what sort of liabilities and assets are following due?
Corporate Participant Sure, I will address that. See, in the next three months the bucket ‐‐ the three months bucket the major source of the liability would be which is falling due is from CP market.
Aparna Karnik Okay.
Corporate Participant So, whatever we are borrowing from the CP market that will come for a repayment in the next three months, that's the only source. Apart from that our all the even the short‐term liabilities are either in form of the CC limits from the bank or we go for a one year.
Aparna Karnik Rolled over. NCD paper or even 18 months of the NCD paper where we have given a put call option after a year. Such type of papers are there which are not due for the maturity in the next three months.
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Aparna Karnik Three months. Understood. And is this matched by assets and investments?
Corporate Participant Yes, we have fairly I would say asset class which are short‐term in nature. The entire book of our capital market lending book and then whatever we maintain for the back up towards the liquidity back up. Arbitrage book those are short‐term in nature.
Aparna Karnik Okay, great. Thank you sir.
Corporate Participant Thank you.
Operator Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Amit Jain from Sunidhi Securities. Please go ahead.
Analyst Hi, good afternoon sir. Just wanted to know what is the share of borrowing from banks and NCD, et cetera, if you can provide the break up?
Corporate Participant Sure. Our borrowing from the banking system though the limit stands at Rs.9,000 crore, but the actual borrowing from the banking system would be around Rs.7,500 crore.
Analyst Okay.
Corporate Participant And NCD another Rs. 1,800 crore, Rs. 2,000 crore from the NCD market. Fine. Your operating cost is coming down continuously. Just wanted to know what's your view on that and how do you see it going forward?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Yeah. This is you are talking about operating cost at a consolidated level or...
Analyst Yeah consolidated level?
Corporate Participant Yeah sure I think there is are couple of different actions. One is we have to be careful about comparing year‐over‐year. Because there have been some changes as we mentioned on the consolidation so that's taken some operating cost out of the system.
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But a lot of that is also because we have done specific in our shifts in some of our businesses like broking where we have made it more asset‐light. And then thirdly there are changes that we have some structured changes at the corporate centers. So combination of ‐‐ deconsolidation where that's happened some of our businesses are reducing the overhead cost and the stuff that we have on the corporate center is really the combination of why the cost have come down.
Analyst Okay. Sir can we consider current quarter to be consistent or you will see a further fall in the operating cost?
Corporate Participant I think we should really look at sequential not year‐on‐year sequential movement is really what you should be looking at. I think there will be we continue to look at ‐‐ across the business especially in this environment. And there will be further changes that we will make but we don't see dramatic shifts hapenning quarter‐on‐quarter it will be more in line of cost productivity measures that we've taken in this environment.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer But you're right to assume that the quarter one of current financial year is more or less is the base line at which we will operate at.
Analyst Okay. And just...
Corporate Participant We'll have to modeling purposes is look that's the base here.
Analyst Okay. And just one more question your PAT after minority interest in consolidated balance sheet is about 24 crores, whether as your PAT in standalone lending business itself is about 48 crores plus you have a cash of about 2,300 crore which must yield about 58 crore per quarter considering interest rate of about 10% on PBT basis. So it means that most of your other business are making losses, substantial losses. So just wanted to know your view on that side?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Yeah. So as you see that's what we have done is, on page five is to show dividend distribution tax separately, that's coming as part of the consolidated net profit.
Analyst Yeah.
Corporate Participant But, apart from that, there are other businesses like broking, health insurance, we have some negative income which is on an overall basis we are in the process of curtailing those losses and turning those businesses profitable.
Analyst Is it possible to provide the breakup between the three?
Corporate Participant
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As we said, as we have just started, that thing would remain in investment mode for next three, four years.
Analyst Is it possible to provide PBT wise breakup for all the businesses?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer It is there in the presentation, if you go forward some pages you will have entity level P&L and entity level balance sheets.
Analyst Okay, sir. That's all from me.
Operator Vikas Garg Hi thanks for taking next year question. Follow up on the earlier question on commercial real estate exposure which you said is I think around 23% so just to understand if I'm taking it correctly this 23% is the percentage of the total book which you are earning at around 12,000 odd crores?
Corporate Participant That's right.
Vikas Garg Okay and so you said it's a combination of your lease rental discounting and for the property which are under construction, possible to give a broad break up across these two segments?
Corporate Participant First of all it is not property under construction because we are not in typical home loan market where developers loan ‐‐ we have loans to developers which are collateralized by the property and receivables from the project and all LRD and all this is classified as commercial real estate. You can connect up with Kishore separately to take the broader break down if you want to look at between developer loans and the lease rental discounting.
Vikas Garg Okay. Right fine I will connect with you later on offline.
Operator Thank you. Please go ahead.
Corporate Participant On that last point I think it's also important to point out that our exposure to what is classic real estate development funding is very, very negligible. Most of our book is on lease rental discounting. But we are not taking fundamental developer risk in our book there. I think that's an important clarification. And you will see that in the data that you can take from Kishore.
Operator Thank you [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Gurvinder Wasan from Principal Mutual Fund please go
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ahead.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan Corporate Participant What is different then CP you are saying. No, so let's again recollect the number what I was mentioning. 7,500 is the bank borrowing.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan Yeah.
Corporate Participant And 1,800 to 2,000 exact number I need to just look at, would be from the NCD market.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan Okay.
Corporate Participant And then there is CP market, which would be around 3,000, plus 3,000. So 3,300, 3,400 that is of CP market.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan Okay yeah and ‐‐ funding and on the asset side. We are saying that our AUM is around 11,700 and where in balance sheet showed asset were 13,700. So the difference of 1,800 to 2,000 is the inter corporate, am I right?
Corporate Participant Mix of, there are couple of things which are there. As I explain to you there is a arbitrage book also we run and there is small proprietary I would say bond portfolio and then corporate loans are there.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan That's a combination of all this has moved from 1,500 crore to around 1,800 crore to 2,000 crore between March and June.
Corporate Participant Between 1,800, yeah between March and June.
Kishore Belai, Head of Investor Relations Gurvinder Singh Wasan Okay. And how much of these Inter‐Corporate loan would be to group company?
Corporate Participant Not substantial would be from to the group company it would be again because the group company also comes under the that limit from the RBI so it would be less then even 500 crores, 400 crores to 500 crores that would be group company.
Gurvinder Singh Wasan
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Okay. Thank you.
Operator Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Elizabeth John from CRISIL Equity. Please go ahead.
Elizabeth John Hi, good evening. I was looking at slide number 11, wherein the gross NPA and net NPA even under the old policy has slightly increased, definitely it is below or maybe there is still some pressure so any particular asset class where we are seeing some kind of pressures or anything?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer As I explained earlier as well that it is not any specific sector or any ‐‐ it is the general maturity of portfolio. And if we are looking at like‐to‐like in market 0.4% of gross NPA versus 2% to 2.5% average in the market I guess four years old portfolio starts getting at least that kind of maturity is that not really specifically coming from any specific sector.
Elizabeth John Okay. And another part on slide 19, I don't know if this question asked earlier but wanted to understand the reason for increase in the operating expenses in RGAM and the decline in the personnel expenses in RGAM on a sequential basis?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Yeah just give us some time to see that somebody has first time asked a question on Religare Global Asset Management.
Elizabeth John Sure.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Paresh.
Corporate Participant Yeah it's actually a declassification of some of the expenses ‐‐ feels ‐‐ feedback.
Operator Excuse me this is the operator. We are unable to hear the current speaker.
Corporate Participant Yes, wait a second. Can you hear me now.
Operator Yeah.
Corporate Participant
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In RGAM we have two subsidiaries in U.S. and this is the first time we are doing consolidation of those entities. So at a earlier basis like unaudited consolidation and during the audit the auditor wanted us to reclassify some of the items from administration expense into personnel expenses. So some kind of contribution which we had made towards the investment team share towards the fund. So it's a reclassification basically. So you will see there is a shift of expenses from administration to personnel expenses.
Corporate Participant ‐‐ done in the last quarter, that's the reason you see the delta in the last quarter, last quarter of the year.
Elizabeth John Sorry I miss the line.
Corporate Participant It was a reclassification over 12 months the reclassification was done in the last quarter of last year that's the reason you see it significantly happening in quarter four of last year.
Elizabeth John Okay. So the base I should take us Q1? Yes.
Elizabeth John Okay, fair. Thanks.
Operator Thank you. The next question is a follow up from the line of Chandan Gehlot from Deutsche Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Yeah. Thank you once again. Just want to understand sir risk management practice in our corporate loan book portfolio.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Can you please state your question again?. We can't here that.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Sir just want to understand our risk management practices in capital market book.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Well the answer for that could be very, very elaborate but as it some where you said we have been running our capital market book for a very long period of time. Our non‐banking finance businesses is started with the capital market finance business and we are very well established time tested prudent risk practices in our capital market finance business.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Sir I mean do we have any checks and controls where the share has been placed is not placed with some any other lender or where
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do we any ‐‐ hold limits where it is like certain percentage of amount of share is already place. So we are not lending to the same client?
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Well I think so we are going more on hear or say what you are reading in media. As we know that the share depository system in India is now very well established. Post dematerialize of most of the security the pleading of the shares its recording and its invocation is all through National Security Depository and Central Depository System and they are very well proven tested system and I don't think so that there is anything which one has to do.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, generally we accept the collateral of share of the any particular entity or do we diversified there also I mean we are taking the combination of this year is it how it works?
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited There is obviously in terms of credit mechanism where various groups are divided in cat A, B, C as they have taken the ‐‐ can be fairly elaborate the discussion on how do we proper reassessment. But to give you a very broad highlight. There are obviously scrips categorize into A, B and C and depending upon the scrip to the customers the limit is set and at a broad level 2X cover is against the line that we give that is available.
Chandan Singh Gehlot No I understand completely just want to understand like when we say 2X. So this 2X comprises share of any particular entity or it is the combination of few entities?
Kavi Arora, Chief Executive Officer, Religare Finvest Limited It's a combination and as I said depending upon the category of whether classifies A, B and C it can be 2, 2.2 and even up to 2.5 depending the kind of scrip that is there at the back.
Corporate Participant Yeah. I think so just to add an substantial what Kavi is saying. Now our capital market finance business is again divided virtually in two part one is in wholesale capital market finance business, which in normal parlance is call promoter financing business and our retail capital market finance business.
When you do retail capital market finance business which is ‐‐ then obviously it is a portfolio or a bucket of securities against which a limit is set to a client and lending is done and wholesale capital market finance obviously we do a credit assessment of the borrower which is a credible promoter of a business and there you may have a concentrated security portfolio which is the whole security but the cover in those lending cases would be much higher than the two time portfolio. So, depending upon what is the nature of, in which the bucket in capital market finance is the way the portfolio and the metrics is constructed.
Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay. Lastly, last question if you permit me. In the past, have we sold the share of any this kind of, I mean, in the history have we seen any situation where we need to dispose of the collateral to the market?
Corporate Participant Chandan Singh Gehlot Okay, but have we exercised this option in the past just to get an sense?
Corporate Participant As I said, wherever there will be a default or a margin shortfall. It is within our legal recourse to do it. And whenever such event
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arises we do it.
Analyst Okay, yeah. Thank you, thank you so much.
Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Preksha Rughani from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Analyst Hi, my question was on Aegon Religare around main never talk that Aegon Religare needs about 100 crores of fresh capital and fusion and there were differences between Aegon and Religare with respect to this so I wanted know what is the development on this issue and is there any chance that because of these issues Aegon may eventually kind of quit from the JV?
Corporate Participant Well we have I have privy and knowledge of an issue which your describing so I don't know what's your source. As far as the business is concerned we continue to monitor the performance of the business obviously Aegon is they global life insurance company as well as experienced to run such ventures in multiple jurisdictions and they take operating loan in providing that guidance to business.
We are providing our extreme support to make sure that capital is conserved in business generate adequate return to all its shareholder. And whatever is the capital needed for the business is being provided by the shareholders.
Analyst Okay well actually this article was, it had come in ET in May and it said that I mean Aegon would need I mean Religare about another 25 crore Aegon Religare in the next couple of month. So I just wanted to know has this capital infusion been done in a fierce and who has infused the capital, is it Aegon or Religare because there were difference amongst them.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Analyst Sure, thanks.
Operator Thank you. As we have no further questions, I would like to hand the floor back to the management for closing comments. Please go ahead sir.
Shachindra Nath, Group Chief Executive Officer Thank you everyone for attending this call. If you have any further queries please fell free to contact Please feel free to contact Kishore, our Head of Investor Relations, he will be happy to be up for assistance. Have a great day. Thank you.
Operator Thank you, gentlemen of the management. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Religare Enterprises Limited, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us. And you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.