Plato’s GORGIAS

Plato’s Gorgias shows Socrates in dialogue with the great rhetorician, one of his students, and an aspiring Athenian politician on the theme of the good life.

PLATO’S GORGIASBackground: role of rhetoric (rhetorike) or oratory in the world of Greek

city-state (polis)

I. Prologue: Socrates arrives at home of Callicles

II. Logos: Socrates vs. Gorgias, Polus, Callicles– What is a rhetorician? (447-466) – truth and persuasion– What good is rhetoric? (466-81) – ethics– What is the good life? (481-527) – ethics and metaethics

III. Epilogue: Callicles should first choose the path of ethics, then turn to politics, to save his soul

Each stage in the dialogue ‘reveals’ a deeper ethical conflict

What is the power of rhetoric?Gorgias vs. Socrates

• Rhetoric = greatest power, i.e. freedom and rule

• Rhetoricians = able to persuade juries, voters, leaders

• Rhetoricians dominate and rule society

• Rhetoric = little or no power (to benefit self/other)

• Rhetoricians = unable to teach right politics or self-knowledge

• Rhetoricians corrupt society and themselves

Part I: Socrates and Gorgias What is rhetoric?

Gorgias• What does rhetoric involve?

– The ability to persuade, esp. by emotional appeal

• Why does he agree the rhetor must teach ethics?– B/c he does not want to oppose

conventional ethical belief

• Why does Socrates ask re: rhetoric and math?– B/c math ‘persuades’ not just to

belief but “belief with reason (logon, explanation)”

Socrates• What does real art

(techne) involve?– Knowledge of why/how it works– Aim at real good of client

• What would a ‘real art of rhetoric’ involve?– Aim at real good of person– Explain/justify its truth

• Does it exist?– = Socratic dialectic?

What is the power of rhetoric? Where do the myths stop and the realities begin?

Socrates: True vs. Counterfeit Arts

False arts of body & soul:• corrupt, don’t aim at the

good• lack knowledge of their

method and subject• create a distorted

society, reflect false values

True arts of body & soul:• benefit, aim at the human

good• possess knowledge of

their subject and method• create a well-ordered

society, based on true values

Part II: Socrates and Polus (“Colt”)

• Student of Gorgias• Realizes his teacher

was ashamed to argue it may be in your self-interest to do injustice, even if it is less honorable

• Thinks of rhetorician and tyrant as having the greatest power and goods

What would you do?• You are in an experiment. If you push the

button, you will receive $5M tax free.

But somewhere in India, a poor man will die.– Would it be foolish?– Would it be wrong?– What would you do?

Consider if: – You would never be punished. – You became convinced there was no

afterlife, heaven or hell.– You were told that after you pushed the

button, you would be hypnotized, so you would not remember doing it, and never have to feel guilty. Would you change your decision?

A critical distinctionS: How can rhetoricians or tyrants have great power in states, unless Polus can prove that they do as they will? --Why, have you not already said that they do as they think best?

S: And I say so still. --Then surely they do as they will? S: I deny it. --But they do what they think best?

S: Yes. --That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd.

• What is Socrates’ distinction?– Do what ‘seems fit’=

apparent good– Do what you want =

your real good

• Is it valid?• Socrates: people

who choose against their real good are not truly free.

Socratic Agon with Polus

I. Is rhetoric powerful? (466-74): rhetoric is powerful only if it leads to real self-benefit

II. It is better to suffer than do injustice (474-76): Socrates throws him on if it is more shameful to do injustice than suffer it

III. It is better to be punished for injustice than get away with it (476-80)

Contrasting Value Systems Soc. Doing injustice is the greatest of

evils. Pol. Is not suffering injustice greater? Soc. Certainly not.

Pol. You’d suffer rather than do wrong? Soc. I should not like either, but if I must choose, I would rather suffer than do. …

Pol. Socrates, would say you do not even know if the great king is a happy man? Soc. I do not know how he stands in the matter of education (paideia) and justice. Pol. What! does happiness consist in this? Soc. Yes, indeed, Polus, that is my view; the men and women who are fine and good are happy, and the unjust and evil are miserable. 469b-471a

• Socrates’ view has been called the “sovereignty of virtue,” insofar as he makes moral integrity prior to every other kind of good, including power, pleasure, even life itself

• Polus: the good =– Rhetoric– Power/pleasure

• Socrates: the good =– Education (inc. philosophy)– Justice

First elenchus of Polus (474b-76a)

1. It is more shameful to do injustice than to suffer it.

2. Shameful, ignoble things are painful or evil.

3. If doing injustice is > shame than suffering it, it must either be > pain or > evil to do it.

4. It is not > pain to do it--it is > pain to suffer.

5. Therefore, it is worse & > evil to do injustice than to suffer it.

– Valid? – Agree with it?– If not, why not?

Part III: Socrates and CalliclesCallicles: Polus was refuted because he ‘compromised’ with morality

I. Callicles (481-492): • Law of nature: better and more

honorable to do vs. suffer injustice• Nature vs. Convention:

– Egoism– Hedonism– Aristocracy

II. Socrate• vs. Hedonism (492-499):• Metaphysics: the good, self-care,

psychic order (499-513)• True art of politics (513-523):• Myth of the afterlife (523- 27)

Callicles: nature vs. morality, the individual vs. society

1.Ethical egoism: •Rational = do only what is in your self interest•Nobler to do wrong than suffer it

2. Master/slave theory •Masters rule, slaves moralize•Nature/history = war, with strong dominaing

3. Hedonism (vulgar)‘•good = pleasure•Pleasure = maximum satisfaction of desires, having power to let them grow

Socratic-Platonic Anti-Hedonism1. A hedonistic person is like a

“leaky jar,” which constantly is being filled and emptied & this is not good, compared to a temperate, well-contained person

2. A hedonistic person will flee from pain and suffering, and therefore will not be courageous—but a ‘real man’ like Callicles must value the virtue of courage.

Would you choose the wire?• It is 2122. Normal life has

become very difficult in the 21st century. However, a new option occurs: at legal age, people can choose to “drop out” and live a fantasy life until they die. This life includes visual and hedonic stimuli. It answers the human quest for happiness. Do you choose the wire?

Socratic-Platonic Ethics1. Pursue what reason says is

best [rational egoism]

2. The good = “flourishing self-actualization” [eudaimonism]

3. Everyone wants [wills] the good

4. True good not = pleasure but a well-ordered soul

5. Virtue makes the soul well-ordered

6. Therefore everyone wants a virtuous soul

Socratic-Platonic PoliticsBackground: Pericles’ Imperial

Democracy

• The goal of the true politician?

– Virtuous citizens, not wealth and power

• What is are the means of the true politician?

– Persuasion or constraint

• How apply this to laws? – Vs. imperialism– Pro education– Pro ‘moral constraints on

freedom’ (?)

Epilogue and Mythos: Socratic-Platonic Religion

• The souls of the just go to the Isles of the Blessed, the souls of the wicked to Tartarus.

“This faith is true.” (524b)• Socrates seeks to “practice

[this] truth” (526d)

• What does ‘truth’ mean here?

• Is this myth part of Socratic-Platonic politics?