paul goodman william buckley firing line transcript
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RKO General Productions1440 Broadway
·New York Ci ty
"ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS NECESSARY?"
A debate with
Paul Goodman, noted author and educator
and
William F. Buckley, Jr., Editor, National Review
on
FIRING LINE WITH WILLIAM BUCKLEY
(Script prepared by Radio TV Reports)
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Sta~YBB&eW. F" Buckley
ANNOUNCER: "Firing Line, with William F. Buckley, Jr.
Tonight's guest,. noted author, Paul Goodman. Our topio, 'Are
Public Schools Necessary?'
"Mr. Buckley."
BUCKLEY: "Mr. Paul Goodman is, roughly speaking, everything
as tar as I know, a basketball player~ Everything else he excelle
in. Mostly, he is known for his original essays on subjects
usually written about by sociologists.
"There is a sense in Which, among other things, Mr. Goodman
1s a sociologist, however disqualified by his ability to write
English, but he is not merely a sociological chronicler, but an
original thinker, whose insights, for instance, in his book,
'Growing Up Absurd,' tend to rock readers who approach them from
whatever direction, because they are startling and many of them
instantly plausible.
"I suppose I should list Mr. Goodman's eccentricities. He
1s a pacifist, a bi-sexualist, a poverty cultist, an anarchist,
and a few other distracting things. Where he stands, ideologically,
in conventional terms, it is hard to say.
"Probably, no one would wish either to olaim him altogether,
or to disclaim him altogether. One oommentator has written that
more, quotes, conservative insights have germinated in Paul
Goodman's mind than in the minds of the entire body of the Amer-
ican Conservative comm\mity.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Un,iversity.------------_.__.. _._--_...._.
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"Mr. Goodman is a stern and interesting critic of American
educational axioms, and we are hore to discuss whether public
schools are necessary.
"If any of you believes that this is a shocking subject,
even to bring up, steol yourself for something worse. Mr.
Goodman doesn't believe that literacy is even necessary.
"I'd like to ask why, Mr. Goodman?"
GOODMAN: "I'd like to comment on one of the points of your
introduction, though it might -- and it might lead into the other
subject -- the word poverty cultist is sort of funny. I'm not
a poverty cultist. I do think it's a sign of a good society that
("'" it is possible to live in decent poverty, especially if you so
choose, that is, if you have morc important things to do than to
k "ma e money •••
BUCKLEY: "Well, that's a little bit different from What
you wrote, bocause you said, quote, unquote, a decent poverty is
really and ideal for serious people ••• "
GOODMAN: "Well, that was just a quotation from the Rabbis,
who say that povorty makes a suint, if you can take .it, and
rrha1~i3 (?) says the same thing. He distinguishes, you remember,
bet\oleen misere and poverte ••• "
BUCKLEY: "Oh, a lot of people ••• yeah. 1l
GOODHAN: "The only trouble is, we have lllisorl), and we don't
have povol'te."
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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BUCKLEY: "Well, a lot of people take vows to poverty,
but it's not wrong to call them poverty cultists, is it?"
GOODMAN: "Ye s ••• "
BUCKLEY: "In any case, I didn't mean to offend you."
GOODHAN: "Yes. No, I WaS just kind of struck by it.
"Now, if we menn by literacy, knowing the art of reading
and writing, where the objects of the art are imagination and
truth, then, of course, to be literate is, you know, importantly
to be fulfulling yourself as a human being, but if we mean by
literacy, being processed so that you can understand the code in
order to buy products, or obey orders, or the rest, then, it's
a question whether most people wouldn't be freer if they weren't
q ui te so caught in thi s code."
ANNOtm'CER: "We ha ve at least two definl tions of literacy.
I'm surf:) thfH'O may be oven some more before the evoning is over.
lI\\fe'11 be back to Firing Line in just a moment."
* * * *
BUCKL'::.""'Y: "Well, Mro Goodman, even if it's correct that
~wmo people don't use literacy in order to stimulate the moral
imagination, or to pursue truth. 00"
GOODHAN: "Tho Ma jori ty, tho maj ori ty. "
BUCKIJ'EY: " ••. even if that is so, is it necessarily so, that
the development of that particular :Jkill isn't in, and of itself,
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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worthwhile, on the assumption that it might be used tor desirable
ends?"
GOODMAN: "Yes. Surely so. I agreo with that.
"'rhe 1 saue rose in a book in. my compulsionist eduoation,
which '.( gno33 you're referring to here. In terms of the todu
which ts mndo about teqching reading and writing in the schools,
IDld also ~he alarm at the fact that there is so much failure in
reading and writing.
"No"" my own feeling, and I think that this would be the
optnion of psychologists, is that under urban or suburban con
ditions, normal kidS, those who aren't emotionally blocked, or
cuI tural1y depo'l'erished, or so forth, would learn to read and
write a1'1y'Way, bec1.lus.q they~re so exposed to the code, by age nine
or ten, if no effor~ Whatever ",ere made to teach them to read
Imd writo, just as they learned to spea.k, with no effort being
made to tt'laeh th(~m to speak, except to talk to them, namely, to
~xpoge thorn to the code.
"On 1.~h() othor' hand, if you try to teach them to read, you
would hav~ the same effect as if you try to teach them to speak.
nomely, about thi:-ty per cent would stammer and stutterQ There's
no question of that."
BUCKl.EY: "You mean to say, that systematic efforts to
ttJach peoplo ~10W to read 81"6, in and of themselves I not worthwhile ~
b€'C:~l1S0 we .•. '
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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GOODHAN: "If we mean by -- if we mean by teaching to read
now~ not the art ot readlng~ but to pick up this code» I have a
feeling that plain exposure for the average, normal kid would
liccomplish better. II
BUCKLEY: "But i~n it it true that e •• "
GOODMAN: "But this would have to be proved by a considerable
experimentation and so forth, but lim afraid that the evidence is
in my direction, and that most of the todo which we have in the
public schools on this issue, is just a todo ~r entrenched pro~
fe8510na1s, or ••• "
BUCKLEY: "Well, do you simply disavow the data ot people
~ who have made and Buperintended massive national efforts to
eliminate illiteracy, and do you Bay that it's all chicanery • ..,"
GOODMAN: "No ••• II
BUCKLEY: " ... that, in point of fact, it hasn't worked, oru."
GOODMAN: "No, no ••• "
BUCKLE):': " ... or to the extent that it does work, it would
he ve worked wi thout such a sys tem,a. tic effort 1"
GOODl1AN: "Certainly. I don't think 1 t' s chicanery. What
it 1.8 is that having built in a structure in which they observe,
they create by their method, the very disaster which they're
fighting ••• "
BUCKLEY': "Okay 0 0 • II
GOODMAN: "This is a commonplace thing 0 Soc1.ety _CD I'm sure
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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you ~ould think of a hundred other places where that's true tooo"
BUCKLEY: "I want to hear you say it."
GOODMAN ~ "Yes. "
BUCKLEY: "Well, then, letns lead on from this axiom of yours,
that lt is not worthwhile to ••• "
GOODl1AN: "No, that's not an axiom -- that'e a hypothesis.oo"
BUCKLEY: " •• oto attempt -- I vouch it is a hypothesis. ISm
usually more reverential towards what you write if it is axiomatic D
it -"" then let's pursue then your hypothesis and ask you this,
a state ought not thorefore to mobilize a public school system
~/hoso intention it is to force pe()ple to learn how to read, even
thoso Who approach the job reluctantly?"
GOODMAN: "Well, that takes us into a broader issue. See,
it's chief function -- I'm a Jeffersonian, and Jefferson felt,
with Aristotlo by the way, that tllo chief function of a political
society Is to educate ita young. Thatas what it's about, and we
ought to be spending here much more money on it than we do.~o"
BUCK. LEY : "Make them 11tel"ary. "
GOODMAN: "That's right, and, as you remember, Jefferson felt
that a very important part of that was that they should learn
history, because by studying history they could learn how to be
vigilant for freedom. That's what he thought when cut out of
hisLory, and that would, of course, require literacy, but that
would, or course, also require reading as an art, that is w where
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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you're readlng~not to know a code, but for truth, and imagination,
and so forth. II
BUGKLEY~ "But in order to read that waY'~ you've got to learn
how to read for instrumental purposes ••• "
GOODMAN: "lJ.lflat's where I trdnk you're wrong, if you think
that. Thatls exactly whatVs wrong with our teaching of readingo o •1i
BUl:KLEY: "Hypothetically, or axiomatically. 0 • "
GOODMAN: "That's what's wrong with our teaching at presento
We take ~eadlng, instead of being an art, as if weVre learning
the tool subject.. If we take a person who really lmll.1JWS how to
teach reading, Sylvia Ashton-Warner .. you know, in New Zealand,
her attitude is that reading is one way of helping a ohild to
express and expres s to the other ,one who's in the other room,
fer instance, by writing it down, what the child really wants to
say,:'!() whnt she tries to do Iseo~1l
BUCKLEY~ "Wi th reference to a vocabularly, or wi thout reference
tu a vocabulary? Is it all anomatopoeia?"
GOODHAN: "No~ with reference to the child t s actual speech
at age fi vee She teaches Maori kids ••• "BUCKLEYr " Bu,t then he just grunts •• o "GOODMAN: "No, no no -- no, no, no~ no, no ~- they can
speak. 1 tIs a question now of their reading and wri tinge They
ceme in at ag~ five or six, and she tries to rind out What i~ it
that's on the child 2 s mind today.
"Now ~ thct words that are on ~ little Maori vs mind -~ in the
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
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little Maori's mind that day, she finds, are always words of fear,
that is, papa's drunk again, the cop beat him up, or seX, or hunger,
and, therE1fore, the primary vocabulary of the child, chosen by the
child a~ it comes in full of a need to say something which is in
1119 hoart, for the first two years, will be a most ·strange one.
"You know, it will consist of all kinds of sexual words, and
words like skeleton, and, you know, wild lion and Wildcat, and worda
of hungst·. You know, frui ts and nuts, and if you compare her
elementa!'y vocabulary with Dick and Jane, you realize that in the
one case, the art of reading and writing is the art which can lead
to poetry and science, and in the other case, the art of reading
and writing is the art which leads to suburban conformism••• "
BU~KLEY "Yes, but doesn't this always assume that Dick and
Jano tnko over, in the one Caso, where they don't in the other •. "
GOClDHAN: "They do •• "
BUCKLEY: .11 •• whereas, if Dick and Jane is simply viewed as
(I menn:3 by whidl one begina the alphabetization of the process •• "
(h)O~m~N: "But that's the error, you see, this separation
n( tho f!1tHH1S from tho encl, because this is not, in fact, how we
learn--now, I have n little three year old at present, and to her,
word~ like brontosaurls, or, you know, tyranosaurus Rex, are just
the sumo as 0~t. It simply isn't the case that children learn
monosyllA.htc words quicker than they lea1'n polysyllabic words.
"She goes to the Museum of Natural History and sees this
'('. -ching, and that one is called tyranosaurus Rex and she knows ttJat
word. Tyranosaurus Rex is farontoua, she says, but she's extinct,
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
ahe says, See."
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BUCKLEY: "Well, why would a public school system•• "
GOODMAN: ,"And why not?"
BUCKLEY: "Why would a public school system exclude what you
just had to say. After all, what you're really talking about is
just dtfferent pedagogical methods ••• "
GOODHAN: "They have the wrong theory, and that's the trouble.
You see, the theory is not an accident, that they hBve a wrong theory.
They have a theory of Elocial engineers. They don't have the theory
of human teachors, or artists. The theory of a social engineer
always says that you can analyze everything down into its least
element, and you first learn one, two, three, four, and then you
add them up to two, four six, eight, but this isn't at all how a
person leoJ'tls, becnuse a person leorns by an intrinsic need, or
rAnching out, and whnt you reach out to, is What's interesting, and
if the text i ~m' t interosting,then, why bother?
"For 1n~~tl1nce, if I teach elementary Latin, I -- and I have
dono thi ~, 1 ho vo t unfor'tuna te ly, in my career, had to teach elem-
"Jnt[l!'y Lotin, I, at nneo, wrote them a little manual whir,h WAS
porllogral'h\.c, bf-<eflll~,(j overy kid of eloven wants to read that •.• "
BU';:KLEY: "WoD, aren't you simply ::lUggosting a revision of
teaching pr-ocedurl1lJ, but \tlhy ••. "
GOODr1All~ "Thqt.'s right."
bUGI:LFY: " ••• do you go on to make the inference that the
ontjre publlr scllool sJstem ought to be abolished?"
GOODMAN tI
"Because, if we had s system which is run centrally,
whoro we havtJ a million childron, let's ssy,in New York City, and
© Board of Trustees of the leland Stanford Jr. University.
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~ fifty thousand teachers and a million children, it will always be
run 8S social engineering."
BUCKLEY: ''Well, there's plenty of pornography in New York City."
GOODMAN: "Not in the school system, unfortunately. I wish
there were more ••••
( LA UO H'J'ff{ )
BUCKL::;Y: "Well, the-- is the problem, therefore, a quantitative
anA, i.e., you feel you are defeated because the problem is one
million students, but you would not feel defeated if it was just your
thr(1e old child?"
GOODMAN: "I would feel better -- I wouldn't feol altogether
happy, but I would certainly feel better if the system were radically
ue-centralized to little store front schools, let's say, where you had
thir·ty children and threo teachers. Now, it wouldn't cost any more,
by tho WB~, because two of the teachers could be college students,
you know, we give a couple of thousand dollars B year, and one licdnsod
teacher, whero there's more human contact.
"I think we havo to have the elementary school system in some
forn or ol,hor, becauso you have to relieve the home, that is, you
hov(! tn 119Ve baby sitters, end you also have to rescue the kids from
the 11' pill' (-d1ts, thorefore, in some form or othor, you're going to have
to 113VO (ilementary education.
"My objection to it, is the curriculm, because every child is
full of Clll'iosity, is rflflching out, and wants to know something, and
all II ton~her hRa to do is to look at the child's eyes and try to
t:"" guess what he's aftel', and he will learn enough ••• "
ANNOUNCER: "Any parent can have difficulty trying to find
what his child is after by looking at his eyes, but we'll try to find
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr..University.
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more about this in just a mornent. tl
* * *BUCKLEY: "So, you do acknowledge the desirability of taking
the s tudonts, dUl'ing some of the daylight hours and attempting to
do somothlng to tllem. Is this, in a sense, a capitulation to the
idtlfl of public schooling, or, are you saying only up until such
on ugo, definitely not through secondary schooling, definitely not
if thoy resist beyond a certain point? How do you feel about that?"
GOODMAtI: "Well, I don I t like the phra sa, 'do something to them, 1
I would want. to do something with thern ••• 1t
BUCKLEY: "~Jell, it depend::! on the children •• "
GOODl1AH ~ II •••• tha tIs -- that's the simply human thing, wi th
thorn.
"On the olemont..ary level, I believe in the 'Summerhill' system,
O~~ you mll~Jt ronli ",1:1, which is a system where the kids have a say in
whHt kind u1' institution t.hey belong to. 'rhoy can fir6 the heed
fll"'l~tel', J'()~' inntanco, !l vory good thinr,. Often, a vory fine practice.
"1 Wfl,:'l fl Lrustoo of a 'SumrrJerhill' ~1Chool whel'e, in fact, that
hnppunnu,. ,It
BTTCKL:~Y: "Were you the hoadrnar-lter?lI
GOOPMA1:: "No, no, no, no, no, I wes just a trustee. No, I
Wll:~n 't thn hoadmes ter.
liTho notion that you havo to Motivate smAll children to l09rn,
iu ~imply ridiculous. Thoy want to lear'n. If you have to if you
(' get in Lhe trap where you have to tHot! vate them, then, something is·
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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wrong. You'll put them in an institutional setup, where they
can't be themselves, and come out from themselves.
"Now, if we get to the later age, now, we're in a much More
serious situation, because in this country there always has been
some kind of compulsory elementary education, pretty much, for the
total population, but if we take the high Bchool age now, most
people now don't seem to realize that in nineteen hundred, only
six percent graduated high school, and this last year, I think the
figure was seventy-five percent, and yet, the schools have maintained
pretty much the same institutional pattern, and yet it must mean
something entirely different, because those six percent were, for
the most part, rather motivated, they wanted to learn something,
f"'" that t s why thoy went to school-- high school; there were many other
things to do, you could go out and get a job, and you could go into
most professionH without all these diplomas.
"My brother, for instance, is an arcjitect. He never went to
high school. You know, he's professor of architecture, and with
[lIOflt profession~ at that time, except for doctor, it wasn't necessary
to have any of these diplomas.
"We have now set up a licenBing system which is perfectly
ridiculous, and a hiring system whereby for the-- for every damn
job in the world, you have to have a high school diploma or college
diploma. It's entirely irrelevant to anything which is dona on the
job, and tho ~esult ls that young people for sixteen, long, years,
are kept doing lessons.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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''Now, mOat people--and I would say eighty-five percent of
youth--well, maybe eighty percent, Kohnen (1) thinks eighty-five
percent, don't really learn well by doing lessons. Not that they
aren't smart enough, but that isn't the way to learn. They learn
by doing something fOl' f'oal.
"Thore are other types, academic types, I happen to be one of
them, who learn very well.--bookishly, you know, by doing lessons
and having some authority figure l~ad yuu by the hand, but most
people learn much better on the job, and this applies to high tech
nology and it applies to languages, and it applies to literature,
and so forth. "
BUCKLEY: "\0,1011, wha t are the roots, then, of the superati tion,
I guess you'd want to call it, that requires students to stay in
school until age sixteen, or in Borne cases, seventeen ••• "
GOODMAN: 11 tie J 1 ••• "
BUCKLEY: " ... is it a part of the ethic' of egalitarianism?"
GOODHAN: "Yes, fop anti thing, Also,-- well, there are manyroots in the beckg?'ound.
0'
"Ontl, of coupse, was tho need to keep the young off the labor
mar'kot, to keep thorn on ice.
"1'htJ chi] rj la bo!' laws, for the mos t part, Were pushed, partly
for human! tnt'ian rensons, but part 1y in order to keep the labor
market, you know, unoccupied by all those kids.
"lecon,l1y, and oBpecially for higher education, college education,
as Wf;I became--began to be un affluen t society, and this began to hf1,ppen
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
aroWld 1920, after the First World WAr, it began to be the feeling
t.hat the children of the middle class ought to have the luxuries
cf life, and one of the luxuries of life was to go to college, because
that's what tho children of the upper class used to do, and there
fore the middle class suddenly sold itself on this notion of the
groat virLuvs of college education. In 1900, by the way, ono-quarter
of on(1 ptn'c on t wen t to college. Thi s year , it's nearly fopty percent. . r
I.'ontan tic •.•• II
OO:;KLEY: "What would you say about the general level of ed-
ucation in 1900, as compared to, say, 19651"
GOODMAl~: "It would depend, if we mean ••• "
BUCKLEY: "Well, obviously, I don't mean in atomic physic8.~
GOllDt·1A!;: "Well, if we mean the quarter of one percent ••• "
BUCKLEY: "No, I said generaL."
GOODHAH: "Yes, I mean--if we mean the quarter of one percent
at. the tOl', to compare with the quarter of one percent then, probably
0·'11"3 itl as good, or better. If we mean for the forty percent, it's
not education at all. It's some-- it's ... "
BW;KU:·i: "Goneral leval of intellectual ability, that is to 1ay,."
Gti,)D!1Al. : "In the country Probably the same."
m,,~y.LF,{: "Begar-dless of that, I would like to test your thosi.s •• II
GO()~)MAN: "Probably the same."
BUCK LEY: " •• 0 tha t, in fac t, people will learn and search out
tlvJir own mflHns of learning, and I wonder whether you have any roason
to fiUppOSO thnt in 1900 people, in fact, did so?"
GOODMAN: "Hell, let's say tllis. In 1900, the society operat/3d,
thBt's for sure. That is, all of the profess~ons were filled.
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The arts were practiced, the professions were practiced, science
expanded, business was run ••• "
BUCKL~'Y: "Books were read."
GOODMAN: " •••• ra ilroads were -- books were read, railroads
were, you know, run, society went on very nice •••• "
BUCKL..b;Y: "Well, what would you say •••. "
GOODMAN: "See, the burden of the proof, really is on the
colleges, isn't it, to prove that they're necessary. Isn't it?
Hecause without them, like -- well, isn't that true?"
BUCKLEY: "Well, except it is presumably manifest, either
they're necessary, i.e., they are willing sellers and willing buyers,
but would you say that the level of literature in 1900 was a3 high
or higher and the capacity to profit from literature, the addiction
to the imaglnatton, tho interest in truth, was that as high then
as it is now?"
GOODMAN: "I wouldn,'t -- I would find it hard to make that
decision, but I would say this, if we will look, let's say, in
I Who's 'iY'ho.' and 00, a t the bi ographic s of writers, you know,
Dreiser, 01', hmm, whatevor you think of him, is a very good writer-,
or editors, journalt3ts, et cetera, from th~t time, it was ex
tremely rare that you found ono who had taken tho steady course
through all of the schools. They often quit high school, went
to collogo for a year, you know, got into some college for a year,
quit college, very rarely went through four years.
"'l'he course, -- the life course, which now is normal for evary
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middle class kid, at that time, simply did not exist for people
wno made their names in inventions, sciences, arts, so forth, and
011 of the professions, as I say, except medicine •••• "
tochnical ~J~dll~l Hctually needed ••••• "
dtJ.;KLt:Y: "Well, I assumo there ,would be machinery that was
ington on -- for tho government poople, on education, and I had some
"Oh, I don't think it's that at all. Do you be-
"Uh huh, uh huh. Of course, there were fewer
"0hhh, well, now lookl - I ran a seminar 1n Wash-
BUCKLEY:
GOUJ)NAi~ :
GOOOMAH:
liOVf) thfl L~ "
8!'qund, it wos much lOS~1 complicat·ed. People can fix a wagonwheel
withU 1,lt beinll, !lble to fix an eight cylinder engine •••• "
" Colonel theru W!lO wns in chl:lrge of Army odueation, and I soid, in
the ArM'] -- they havo very good schooling in the Army, by the way,
now do you teoeh, l'1HY, l'ndnr ropair and operationfl, he said, 'Oh
wo I;r:H)) LOlJeh t;hllt to It:lybody in tl yonr.' On thf.l basis of whAt
prillI- .H; i!C\ I ,1 l.np;'? Non'} whnte'll)r~ You moan he could bo illitorHte?
.:::' G"Il!-.'~{;. it; w,m1dll't r'wl<e lilly difference Whatever. He said,
;,.111', :11 1.:1- ' t\Y'mJ' we don't. h·ne lin:; illitorates, because if they
rome {n illiLt~l'HtO, in A, row month~! we've taught them to read.
n1'o t.:·yil!~ to 10111'11 l.h'Jt. Ho says, well. we U:H3 the 'or-elso'
"'i-) '.,1.0:1 •••••
i J U .:; '\. '. )\ ,.":\ V. A1.. ~l ~
" ••• h:l!i.<:!l t:m't a bud muthod at age eighteen. I wouldn't
·usn it at ago ten."I
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
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propor kind of oxortati on a t age eight, and age eighteen?"
GOODMAtJ: "Tho standard's the same. Any person will do what's
BUCKLEY: "Oh, I see, so your standards do change . about the
for I'/Itd, IlIld 11 ha's put in a situation, where to pass tne exam-
inr.tiun i:\ !l~C(1Ssary•••• "
.•. ~ ..... r,' : •~ / \ I .... , ••: 0 • ' ~ ;.. • "He'll do it."
(;U;). ';',N: "Ho'll do it. That doesn't mean he's learned uny-
;' :;I'~:jn3 he's passed. See?"
"Well, tho -- I'm getting a signal over here, you
A:UOtJW~ER: "Yos, ana I think the signal is, Mr. Buckley, that
wo mus t pH ll~~e here for just a moment.
"hr,,-, 1~. roturn to 'Firing Line.'"
* *
'i",' ":iCH','.irlg ar.)\Uld tho Joint; hope. 1."01' in~tunce, there is -_ it
'1";1' cr<',; ;'.10 and your anlJlysls to a number of concrete issues that
"Mr. Goodman, muybe it would be a good idea to adLlress.."
h 1""-. :jl'f)p()~led to rnise the compulsory attondance ago from six-
,,'~~hLe()n - you're flg~d.nst. it, right?"
"Yo s • "
"It hU3 been proposed to forbid any state or federal
mdl i'::l ;'r'c;01 go lng in to pri VfJ, te church re la to d schools. You're
J~i)JJl1AN: "Yes, I'm against that. Oh, yes."
bUCKLEY: "Now, would you be ~n favor, for instance, of some of
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
the steps that were suggested fo~ -- letts say, ignoble reasons
in tho south during the past few years, steps by Which, in fact,
they could avoid racial integration. The business of ~anding over
th each parent x (ex) number of dollars, which he could then pro
ceed to spend at whatever school he saw fit to spend it at ••• "
GOODMAN: "I thought that was a marvelous idea for the wrong
l'OnSOI'l, except I didn't soe that they wero handing the money over
to the little Nogro children, which would have been a great thing.
I think one of the most valuable forms of education we could have,
would be to extend the GI Bill idea down to the high school lovel.
"For In~tance, a kid wllnts to •••• "
BUCKLEY: "'Nhy not pre-high school?"
GOOuMAN: "t'lha t would a nine year old do wi th eight hundred
fifty dollIH'3?"
BUCKLEY :
this •••• II
"jo/ell, presumably, she'd consult her parents on
GOODHAN.:· "Oh, well, thenm you moan give it to the parents?"
BUCKLEY: "Yeah. 1.'
(WCIDMAN: "Oh, yes, I'm for t.hat. That's done in Denmark,
by the way. If twenty parentR have some eLiucational idea ~nd get
themsolves a liconsed teacher .••• ·1
BUCKLb:Y: "Licensed?"
GOODMAN:· " •••• yes, a liconsed -- a state licensed teacher ••• "
BUCKLEY: "You' ro agu ina t th;'lt, a ren' t you?"
GOODMAN: "Oh, no, no, no, no. No, state licensed teacher.
t('; It would depend on what toe rUles j of licensing are. That ia, thereI
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr, University,
- 19 -
is such a profession. I'm not objecting to the fact that there 1s
a profession of. education. I object to our form of licensing.
That is, there has to be some control of -- to ~lom you give
twenty children.
"Then, those twenty parents can set up a little school and
the state will pay for it, and, in fa9t, ten p~rcent of the Danish
elemontary education 1s run in such free schools, meaning by free,
not that the -- oh, all the schools are paid for by the state,
but that the parents run th~ school the way they feel like running
tne school, why not?"
BUCKLEY: "Well, does the s ta te, then, supervise tne standards ••• "
GOODMAN: . "No. II
BUCKLEY: " •••• wi th reference to, any objec ti "Ie cri teria?"
G00DMAN: "No, no, except that if you want to go on in the
academic line, then in order to get into the lext level, they make
their rUles d3 to what they'll a&nit on, liko college boards."
BUGKLr;Y: "But it's completely up to the parents, whether or
not they want ot pursue a1) academic career •••• "
GOODMAN: "'l'hHtt~l right."
BUCKLEY: " ...• of, a kind that makes it possible .for him to
go onto a higher institution •••• "
GOODMAI1: ..Or.oriftheparentsarewise.i t' s up to the child,
you know. II
BUCKLEY: "Tell me this, Mr. Goodman, do you have any influence
in the Untted States, other tnan among people who admire your
ingenuity and the originality 01' your insights?
"For instance, would you be invited to ~ive a speech before
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 20 -
the NEA, ana •••• "
GOODMAN: "Oh, yes."
BUCK.LEY: " .... and could you survive?"
GOODMAN: " •••• sure, oh, I t vo done that. I've done that.
I moan, I'm the court jester for the American people, you must
know that. TI1at is, they have to have someone who tells them the
wisdom of ttle East, while they go on in their folly, because it's
good for their soul, and they've always -- powers that be, have always
had such people, and there are fow of us at present •.•• "
BUCKLEY: "And they indulge you?1l
GOODMAN: II •••• they do it all the time, they indulge me ••• "
BUCKLEY: "ml huh, uh huh. 11
r'" G0UL>l1AN: "That is, I'm -- I gues s I'm asked to talk on such
'big Wig' occasions twice a week, and I, unfortunately, do it about
once H month •••. 11
BUCKLEY: "Well, do you feel that you're making any headway,
'Jr do you think that we're locked into a rather mechanistic view
of educa t ion as tl) make it highly unlike ly tha t we wi 11 procoed in
trw direct-Lon of odll\;;!t;ion•... "
UUU:)~~A!i : "I 'll put it thi sway, I put 1 t thl sway -- I have
I'm very important person for the radical youth, and I am,
not because I influence tnem, or teach them anything, they're
qUite unt:eachable, tha.nk God, but that what I do prove, at least
to them, 1:J~hat there are alternatives to doing what we do, and
since they're totally dissa tlsfif3d wi tn wua t wo do, they can quote
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 21 -
me a s say lng, well, Goodman suys we needn t t do it that, way, we
could do it this way, see?
"There fore, I porform a very valuable;, psychologic al service
f or t; he M. • • • It
I 1'1' "",Il ,Hun i, ••••
II D .. I II:..>u" Y(lU I{HOW ••••
" •....but, I dlln't know whether you'd c~lll that
"Yenh ••• I've 90m/,ti~es wondered whether you
~'1··.·..···'1
GOt 'l)E ','~ : nyo,~, that's "'hut I'm saying."
"I t ,lomn:l to me thH t, after all, here you are •••• "
ftn' Itt~:1 •
n .... in n ~'fjn3C, a brother to all, An anarchist,
r1 ,'r! t 1 i ',y 1;; I'l'do; to P!'~'StH've your own integri ty, :H1<1 yet, in fact,
" ';\ \I I 1 ~
,I ' •
. :, .. ~ W";!Hl Lho:; :3tlJrt ruining tt1f:l joint in
"/1.tl 4 } ," ,C',.
"Yellh. "
...... /j'~·1l:111y. don't yl'\.1 -- wouldn't 11 be q little
~.. ' ., I' 1')" • 'J \ \ 1" 1 ,,' '#' ') l!J', ... # \ ,.. J t" " -I t
"'!:'lwL -- fi!'nt plft:.:e, HS ,,1rr1llr Khoyatn said, you know,
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 22 -
'I otten wonder what the vintner's bUy, when halt so precious is
the stuff they sell.'
"The affection of the young is a great reward, tor me any
way, nnd, therefore, I can hardly say they exploit me. They do
~or'k mo +:0 doath. My last job was out at San Francisco State
College, whore I Was hired by the students, you know, to be their
teacher. It wus a great thing - this college paid out of student
dues for its own teacher, and the point of it was that I was supp
osed to be teaching them what they weren't getting in the other
school, but, in fact, I wasn't teaching any such tning. I taught
the same thing, but they felt, at least, they could control me,
and I suppose they could•••• "
BUCKLEY: "Well, now, in what sense did they control you?"
GOODMAN: "Well, they could contro),. me, that is, they were ••• It
BUCKLEY: "They could tire you."
GOODMAN: " ••• paying my salary, they could fire me, and I
was beholden to try to, you know •••• "
BUCKLEY: "Did you insist on a contract?"
GOODMAN: "We have contracts. Of course, you have contracts.
Sure. It was all dono in proper order."
BUCKLEY: "Well, the -- do you find them actually interested
1.n a basic critique, is really What I'm anxious to hear you ex
press yourself on, or, as I say, are you simply an amiable eccentric,
who ;3ays heretical things, which 1;hey get sort of charge out of
11.stQning to?1V
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 23 -
GOOUMAN: "No. No.
"rl'hey are very serio U3. But you mus tn' t expect too much
of thorn. See, we live in a socioty, and -- whero these kinds
have beon subject.ed to a bRd educational system at the college
cHtions in our society are corrupt. Very few are exempt from that.
You knuw, the law is corrupt. Business is corrupt. Politics
ifl currupt. Tho phy:dcal ~3ciences have become corrupt. Religion
13 lJecorning n littlH le~s corrupt fox' them, you know, tneology,
tho ::3enlIHtI·ies . "and so ••••r
lJUCKLE;t': "God i~~ beginniug to shupe himself after their
I I' ~ ". m,i ,~)o •
GOODMAN: ffYo8h, yeeh, thut t 8 right •••• "
(~.lA OG H'l'EH )
GOOllMAlJ': " •••• well, no, no, it i~Hl't thut., it's that •••• "
l;lh;KU~Y: "lk mi~!,Il.'." be hi~'ld in SI.l.f:l i"rnnclsco .... "
<,.;uUDHA:j: "Nu, Lt l ,) thut. J t;hink, the existentiolist Frot-
th) c(Jndition~, or modul"n till1e~\ IU'O de-hulnoni.',ing, and they ~uddenly
rnaHidwJ, Jllld nineu t'ne secull'il' :)()~:iet~· ha~ no reletion to ll1unk1nd,
Lh.,~ Y 1111 ve t.o come to 1 ift), hna !,horo fort} 1 t' s a vnrj' rare camp~s
1n t.ho Unitod StHL(j~J, that thu c'~ntor of I'adical Ilcti.vity, is not;
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 24 -
1n the chaplain, you know that? The young chaplain?"
BUCKLEY: "Yes, I know that, and I know that there are
ulternutive reasons for that ••• 11
G00JJHAN: "We li ••••• "
BUCKLl'~Y: "hxp lana ti ons for it, rather. II
G00DM/\.N : "Yes. "
bUCKLl::Y: "'.i.'hor'e are those who believe that a lot of chaplains
.u'e are at trac ted to the t kind of ac ti v i t y, because they themse 1ve s
rind their own religiun deficient, or because they're alarmed at
the lack of eonta,:t with, quotes, reality .... "
GOODMAN: "Yo:.>, sure."
bUCKLbY: "So I think the t thero are a number of reHsons for
OwL, but those yout.h -- to what extent 1s the course of deciding
tllat nul' :.,0einty i.::; insufficient and that the ideals of our society
HPt! in.~~llt'~'tl~ ien', ly humane, to What extent do they turn arotmd nnd
bring 'hl~ IH1w'IILion,.d sy8tem for it, or to what extent do they,
r~ther, Himply 8s~ume that the educational system i~ a natural
eX})I'c:3sion of 11 ~lOetety so orgnnized?"
(J\)O:JEA~:: "'..Jell, it's -- well I think,the latter, but that is
Ll' ue, i ~) n 't. i t. 'i "
b!1~~i\.LC1: "Wull, I don't know •••• "
GOOlIMAN: "I was ut Rutgers yosterday .... "
BU';Y.LEi: " •••• but I don't; think you've made that clear ••• 11
GCODHAN: "I was at Rutgors yesterday •.•• "
BUCKLEY: " ••••• somotimes you seem to be talldng about
teaching methods •••• "
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
!'
- 25 -
GOOr::t1AN: " ••••no, I was at Rutgers yesterday, and the --
what the students want-ed to know, they were freshmen, it was a
freshmen orientation progrfl.m, and what they wantfJd to know was,
HOW, thE:l t we're here, wha t should we do •••• "
BUCKLEY: "'lttloy listen to you, to begin with ••.• "
GG(;m·1At; : " ••• and thoy said, didn't I think that the edu-
cBtiollal ~,y',telTl, and they had tbree days of Rutger:3, they'd been
thero threo days, but they had been there long enough to say, it
looks very much like the rest of the organl~ed system, 8S they
ellll it. 'fhn t is, they wel'O proce Baed, and there were IBM ca rds,
Ilnd they wore -- they had to take all kinds of sUbjects which they
knew woro not going to be of much importance to thom, not at that
r" mO!T1ont, :.le<:l)llSO thoy WtH'on't choosing them, and it wfl.sn't what
they worn i-d't.eI', et. cutura, and they were being pI'ocossed again.
"::ow, (Jur' society is gpout for social onglnet)l'ing, isn't it?
P. IC~;;:;Jing, ;)';1 fwd large, and I think tHey know this. 'l'hoy know
j t, f.l t t-hl) hi.gh scclOol level •••• II
;:1:.() t.~ill: pnrtlculoI' lWlt.itution., <lidn't they?"
H1'O -- LUOJ buve tn do it in order to get A union card, be\~Huse
t,lw~r ·i.·n't know whatel:w to du \oIrith thomselves, beeause thei!'
~lch()\l.ling hag not given tnem IIny identity or vocation, and to
it void the dl'uft •••• 11
ANNUUHC£R: I,you are watching '.r1irlng Line,' with William
;.' • Hue k1 e y, Jr.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 26 .~
I'Tonight's guest, Paul Goodman.
"We'll be qack with a questioo. period in just a moment."
* *A!Il~OUHCER : "Hr. Goodman, you have warned Americans against,
whot :you (~~ll, a progJ'o:.Jsivt) rogimentation, whicb could become,
in your' wor<.b, a 1'n sc i :3m 01 th..., contel'.
11;)0 y'cu see the sceds of tais fascism in whet is referred to
as tht:.' cunsensus society or Lyndon Johnson?"
GOO1JHAN: "Fascislll of tho center, that is, rather, what you
have is an est8blish.munt which has no tradition to warrant there
being an oJtEibl1:1hroont.
"1 ,lUl1 1 t like to allswer t'.bat question now, because the con-
m,mth~, tl) my de light., thut why k,lGk that deAd horso? Tho consensus
n()\~ jOt~m) t.o be whutller he should ubuicaLe beforu 1968, or not.. I'
"HI'. :3uc kley, Alber L J. Knuck he s wrl t ton the t
v irt',:n,dy f'Vtlf'yCJntJ i~3 vrairwblo, but tnnt very few peopl~ ar-a
genuln('ly edueuble.
JI. Jd YllU R.CCCp1.. Ln~::J distinction, und i1' so, what inferences
cio you dr'll w fr om it for publ ic educa tlon? II
fl \.I '11'1t)~ I ye~, yos, 1 do. I do accept 1 t in the con-
":io tt'r,d~(l to dJ ~ t :Lngui~lb Vf:Jr';{ Shlll'ply between :3omeone who
30\,ght leal'.i'dng 1'o~' til/) ~\!lko 0,1' l()(.lrning, a11.<1 others wao nought
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
- 27 -
learning simply because it was a means by which he could acquire
other things, which are not necessarily to learning, but which
may not be achievable without it, and Knock, of course, Was a
very hArsh critic or a confusion of the two system,s and I do
thillk it's true that th~ public schools and the colleges, to a
con~ddel'able extent, continuo that co.nfusion, compound it, and have
H vested interest in it.· f
GOODMAN: "May I make a •••• II
13UC~Y: "Please do. ','
GOODMAN: " •••• comment on that?"
"It's not merely continuing it. It's become the orthodoxy
now. It's called operant-conditioning, and the system of the
~ teaching machines is precisely to train, or instruct, as they say,
rather than to educate.
I~ducation demands some intrinsic motivation, whereas training
requires just prograIYll1ing."
ANNOUN(''ER: "Yes, but you say tha t all young people really
',.J:Jnt to learn."
GOODMAN: "Yes, but they don't want to be programmed. That
is, tbey reach out, and then you give them what they're reaching
out to. It's quite different ir you decide beforehanu what they
11 re supposed to reach to."
ANUOUNCER: "In this context, Mr. Goodman, you've covered a
reI ther wide range of education, from early childhood right through
tho normal college years; I wondex' if we could get your opinions
on 'Operation Headstart' of the 4nti'Poverty Program?"
GOODMAN: "Well, 'Operation Headstart' <?an be many things,
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 2H -
like any nursery school situation. It's obviously very desirable
for kids who never get a warm meal, to get a warm meal. Like the
kids who want to ask a question, get cracked across the face and
told shut up, to have some adult) however inane, smile at them
and be kindly, ana. to read tuem storios and so forth, that's all
very good.
"Operation Headstart, however, is founded ou a -- and tnis
What I'm going to say now, it's not really very important - it
started on a psychological theory, Martin Deutsch, which happens
to be false, that there is such a thing as intellectual faculties,
et cetera - it's the old transfer training nonsense, but it doesn!t
1l1ake any difference, what's good about 'Heads tart' is that kids
wno are living in flats which are overcrowded, too noisy, have no
warm meals, et cetera, nobody who pats them on the head, are not
put in a room which is relatively quiet, and with toys to play
with, and so forth, therefore grecH."
ANNOUNCEH: "Hr. Buckley, would you agree thut the main value·
of 'Operation Headstart' i3 meroly to give a warm meal, and per
haps a pat on the head nnd f.l little peace and quiet?"
BU8KLEY: "Well, r think, provided one u~es the word main
with soma procision. Mr. Goodman may bo right. That is to say,
'Oporation Haadstart' is not conceived as a system th~t is going
to turn H lot of people who would othvrwise be illiterates into
qUAlified studentn for the advanced institute of higher studies,
but, on the o~her hand, I'm perhaps a little bit less skeptical
1ihan Mr. GoodllJon, or at least mor~ optimistic than Mr. Goodman, in
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 29 -
hoping that some of those in the course of having a warm meal,
will also discover there is a certain intellectual excitement in
reading and in wanting to learn. That may be accidental, but •••• "
ANNOUN<;ER: "It's a rather expensive accident, if I may add
that."
G00DKA..l"t: "Oh, we're a very rich Rociety. The amount of
money we ::;pe:Hl on decent things liko this, compared to what we
lJlow 1.:1 Viot Nam - ridiculous!"
ANN OlJ:~CEH : "HI". Goodman •••• II
rlUC:~~Y: "Wo wouldn't have decent things 1 ike this if we
didn't blow money 1n Viet Nam, Mr. Goodman, but let's get off
thot subJect.."
A:iN JU~ CEH : "111"'. Goodman, you're noted for whfl t appe ars to
me t.\) oe n pa radoxi clil remark, tho t more formal schooling of ten
entolls les~l educntion .••• "
GuOm1Al~ : "Ye s. "
ANlJ \nl~CER: " •••• and you seemed to ha vo been taken a t your
word Ly some of your admirers at Berkeley.
''''':o'lld you carH to clArify th~.d, remark for U~l?"
:]uD;)l:;~l~: "WelL, ~_lirnplJ' that if we mean by formal schooling,
:.ho runnin~: of un obstacle course whL~h has been thought a priority
b1 some dean or board of education - see, I was on the board of
ed'l': ,'1 t i on, 0-1 one of the loc a1 boa rds in New York Ci ty a-9-d I know
Wfl03rcot' I :Jp,:wlc, then, this hus very 1ittlo to do with educaticn
in the sen:\(l of a -- offering in the environment of what meets a
(" ne~d to know. 11
ANNOUNCER: "Now, Mr. Buckle:>', you, of course, are a hero of
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
- 30 -
wnat i~ reforred to as the 'new right', and Hr. Goodman, you are
a hero, or as you phrased it earlier this evening, 'a captive of
the radical youth' ••••• "
GOUDMJU~ : "Ye s , not the new left. "ANNOUHCER: " •••• but you do soem to have a great deal
in common •••• "GODDHAN: .rYes. "ANN OUN CER : "••.•• certainly on many of those things. Do you
see from this somewhn~ curious situation a possibility that there
might be the beginning of a realignment of political forces in
thi s count ry? II
GOODMAl'f: II I s tha t to me? II
GOODHAN: II' / l'.wOol ... , yes, this was obvious in Berkeley itself,
where you fotrod tho t tho Golctwn tel' youth and tho -- were in the
free speech movement for a perfeytly good reason. That is,
they wero all tired of being pushed around by lying admini:J tra tors. II
BUCKLbY: "Oh, I don't think that's a very tight deduction,
is it? 11
G\;OiJHA:; : II'doll, I think tht~ t 's why they were togother on
this issue •..• "
BUCKLEY: II~oll. I don't think thAt they were -- thoy parti-
cipnted in the free speech movemont for thosame reasons, neco-
:u"rl1y, thnt. leu them to back Goldwater."
GOODMAN: "No, tha t'.3 true, but I think that tho backing of
Goldwater is -- meant very many pifferent things. That is, there
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
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was a kind or hard core lunatic fringe. I think even"Jou would
grant that, who backs Goldwater, just as there's a hard core
lunatic fring t) in the •••• "
BUSK:,hY: uSure • Unfortunately, less numerous than the
lW1otii: fringe that back Johnson.~
"""";;: ll'{es, tha't's -- that, I don't think was a lunatic
,',T
,1': that was the 'looney bin' itself."
"Away from the subject of education, Mr. Buckley,
";18 question, may I ask you to answer it? Do you.
','J8 'l!l~ ,,,,,';:Ining of realignment of political forces in this
i') 'C~:l:':': "Oh, I -- people have remarked on a certain con-
gr'lli tJ ~:I > -':'l~ of the recent passions and detractions of the
1\ ' 01'
", t h;'
dght, and the anti-establishment left, ana I think
: think that there Aro reasons that appeal to both
them is a sense of impotence, as a result of th~ furce
,1shmeni, thAt is to say, a desire to recover sov-
, ;' ones own affairfl •••• II
'J: nrro, not a ~)en:-:e 01' impotence, but a refusal to be
i,,;, I'lvmore ••.• II
fl1tr\1~J( fl"um tlJ.at fear 014 impotence •••• "
:~[1i;L .~'{: "And that under circwnstancess that's true, however,
("'" 1 ~i.l:lZ{ that it's unfortunate to ~se Berkeley as a 'corpus vile'
h~re, because in Berkeley, things went berserk, in my judgment,
and pl30ple who were sensible, saw the necessity of a basic order ••• "© Board of Trustees of the Lel~nd Stanford Jr. University.
- 32 -
GOODMAN: "May I say something about that •••• "
BUGKLEY: " ..... as a requirement to any freedom •••• "
GOODMAN: " •••• about that.
"I've been to Berkeley this year a good deal. I think that
any impartial observer out there would say that both the academic
fj tmosphere and the community atmosphere in Berkeley, this year,
HPe fur better than they have be€m in the last twenty years.
tf'rhorefore, it's really very unfair to say that the in
~luprectionary troubles were for the bad."
BUCKLEY: "well, it's impossible to crack your syllogism
if you accept the assumption. I maintain that for somebody like
Proressor William Peterson, or Professor Lewis Foyer, are im-
~ partial observers, and they come to precisely the contrary ••• "
G00DHAH: "Foyer haan' t impartially observed anything since
he Was a child •••• II
ANNUUNGER: "I try to be an impartial observer gentlemen,
and I dislike interrupting as much as possible, but we have to
flluse here for just a moment."
BUCKLhY: "Well, Hr. Goodman, I have only forty seconds in
which to thank you very much. I will spend the next hour de
bri,:,fing my son Who is in tne audience, and goes off to a non
permissive boarding school tomorrow, but I do thank you very much,
and I am extr&ordinarily interested by your insights, as I',
sure everybody else is, and alth0'f\gh I don't go witu. you all the
way, I know that's not of great concern to you ••• "
* * *
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
.., 33 -
GOODMAN: "I'm not sure I do either."
BUCKLEY: "•••• I've greatly enjoyed listening to you, and
have profited a lot from this and your books, and thank you
again. "
&4
GOODMAN:
BUCKLEY:
"Well, l'm glad to have bean on tn.:, program."
"Thank you."
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