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ParthaDasgupta(UniversityofCambridge)

SirParthaDasguptawasborninDhaka(atthattimeinIndia)in1942andgraduatedwitha

BScinphysicsfromtheUniversityofDelhiin1962beforeobtainingbothaBAin

mathematicsandaPhDineconomicsfromtheUniversityofCambridgein1965and1968

respectively.HetaughtattheLondonSchoolofEconomicsbetween1971and1984and

thenmovedtotheUniversityofCambridgein1985asProfessorofEconomics.Between

1989and1992,hewasonleavefromtheUniversityofCambridgeandservedasProfessor

ofEconomics,ProfessorofPhilosophy,andDirectorofthePrograminEthicsinSocietyat

StanfordUniversity.HeiscurrentlyFrankRamseyEmeritusProfessorofEconomicsat

Cambridge,FellowofStJohn’sCollege,Cambridge,andProfessorialResearchFellowatthe

SustainableConsumptionInstitute,UniversityofManchester.

ProfessorDasgupta’sresearchinterestsincludewelfareanddevelopmenteconomics,the

economicsoftechnologicalchange,population,environmentalandresourceeconomics,the

theoryofgames,andtheeconomicsofundernutrition.Hismost‐citedarticlesinclude,

‘NotesontheMeasurementofInequality’,JournalofEconomicTheory(1973),co‐authored

withAmartyaSenandDavidStarrett,‘TheOptimalDepletionofExhaustibleResources’,

ReviewofEconomicStudies(1974),co‐authoredwithGeoffreyHeal,‘IndustrialStructure

andTheNatureofInnovativeActivity’,EconomicJournal(1980),co‐authoredwithJoseph

Stiglitz,‘TheExistenceofEquilibriuminDiscontinuousEconomicGames,I:Theory’,Review

ofEconomicStudies(1986),co‐authoredwithEricMaskin,and‘InequalityasaDeterminant

ofMalnutritionandUnemployment:Theory’,EconomicJournal(1986),co‐authoredwith

DebrajRay.Hisbooksinclude,TheControlofResources(HarvardUniversityPress,1982),

AnInquiryintoWell‐BeingandDestitution(ClarendonPress,1993),HumanWell‐Beingand

theNaturalEnvironment(OxfordUniversityPress,2001;revisedversion,2004),and

Economics:AVeryShortIntroduction(OxfordUniversityPress,2007).

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ProfessorDasguptawaselectedaFellowoftheEconometricSocietyin1975,Fellowofthe

BritishAcademyin1989,MemberofthePontificalAcademyofSocialSciencesin1997,

MemberoftheThirdWorldAcademyofSciencesin2001,andFellowoftheRoyalSociety

in2004.HeisaForeignHonoraryMemberoftheAmericanAcademyofArtsandSciences

(1991),ForeignAssociateoftheUSNationalAcademyofSciences(2001),ForeignMember

oftheAmericanPhilosophicalSociety(2005),andForeignMemberoftheRoyalSwedish

AcademyofSciences(1991).HewasnamedKnightBachelorbyHerMajestyQueen

ElizabethIIinherBirthdayHonoursListin2002for“servicestoeconomics.”

IinterviewedSirParthaDasguptaathishotelinMontreal,Canada,wherehewasattending

theWorldCongressoftheAssociationsofEnvironmentalandResourceEconomists.Itwas

theearlyafternoonofFriday,July2,2010.

BACKGROUNDINFORMATION

Youholdbachelor’sdegreesinphysicsandmathematics.HowdidyouendupwithaPhDin

economics?

Iwasintendingtobeahigh‐energy,particlephysicist,buttwothingsmademeabandon

thatambition.Onewasthatthesubjectwasgoingthroughwhatseemedtometobean

uninspiringpatchinthemid‐‘60s,althoughthatprobablyreflectedmyownintellectual

shortcomingsmorethanthestateofthesubject.TheotherreasonwasthattheVietnam

Warwasonand,likemanyotherstudents,Iwasbotheredbyit.Myfriendsamongthe

mathematiciansatCambridgeweren’tinterestedintheWar.Aphilosopherfriendinsisted

hedidn’thaveenoughinformationtohaveaviewabouttheWar.Ifoundthattheonly

peopleincollegewithwhomIcouldhaveinformativediscussionsontheWarandits

probablecauseswereeconomists,particularlyMarxists,whoprovidedmeone

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interpretation,andpoliticalscientists,whoinsistedonanotherclassofinterpretations.

Thatwasveryeducationalforme.

InmyowncollegeatCambridge,JimMirrlees(nowSirJamesMirrlees,NobelLaureate)had

donemathasafirstdegreeandaPhDineconomics.Igottoknowhimthrougha

discussiongroupwebothbelongedto,andheencouragedmetoshifttoeconomics.And

that’swhatIdid,in1965.

Asastudent,didanyofyourprofessorsstandoutasbeingparticularlyinfluentialor

inspirational?

Thegreatestinfluencewasunquestionablymyfather,whowashoweverneverformallymy

teacher.Hewasaprofessorofeconomicsandaprofoundeducationist.Hewasalsoa

terrificfather.Ourhomewasalwaysfilledwithvisitors:hisstudents,colleagues,and

friends.Also,betweentheagesof13and15,Iwenttoaschool(nowknownasRajghat

BesantSchool,Varanasi)thatwasphenomenallygood.Icameunderthespellofseveral

remarkableteachersthere.Aboutthreemonthsago,Ivisitedthecampuswithmywife.

Wespentaweekthere.Itwasanunforgettableexperienceforusboth.

Idon’tbelievetherewasanybodyatuniversityinDelhiwhoinspiredme.ButasaPhD

studentatCambridge,JimMirrleeswasabiginfluence.Hehadenormoustechnicalabilities

andIcouldtellheaskeddeepquestions.

Whydidyoudecidetopursueanacademiccareer?

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Thatwastheinfluenceofmyfather.IassumedIwouldbeanacademicbecausethat’sthe

onlylifeIhadknownatclosequarters.Ourhomewasregularlyfilledwithvisitors,who

wereoftendistinguishedacademics.Theywereinvariablykindtome,askedmequestions

andsharedtheirideas,evenwhenIwasveryyoung.ItwasbutnaturalthatIwouldbe

attractedtoalifeofthemind.AndIwas.ButwhenImovedtoeconomicsIwasn’tsetting

outtochangetheworldorhelpthepoor,oranythingsonoble.AllIwantedtodowasto

obtainaPhDandbecomeanacademic.IbelongtoacasteinBengal,India,thatnurtures

professionals,especiallydoctorsandteachers.Myoutlookmusthavebeennarrow,itnever

occurredtometoworkintheprivatesector,sayforabusinessfirm.IfIhadjoinedthe

privatesector,myparents’friendswouldhavemerelyinferredthatIwasn’taserious

person,mostcertainlynotagoodstudent[laughs].

Inthemidtolate1960s,atleastintheUK,studentsofmathematicswhohadconvertedto

economics(thereweren’tthatmany)wereviewedwithsuspicion.Didwehavethe“horse

sense”thatwasnecessaryforeconomics,senioreconomistswouldask.Forsomeyears

afterIobtainedmyPhDIwasunsuccessfulinobtainingatenure‐trackpost.Twoofthe

chaptersinmythesiswerepublishedintheReviewofEconomicStudiesalmost

immediately,sotheymusthavebeenreasonablepiecesofwork.Buttheyweretechnical

papers.AsIhadlittleformaltrainingineconomics,Iwasalsodiffident,andthatmayhave

showed.AboutthetimeIcompletedmyPhD,thatwas1968,Iobtainedaresearch

fellowshipatCambridge,spentayearatCarnegieMellonUniversityasavisitingassistant

professor,followedbyayearasavisitingfellowattheDelhiSchoolofEconomics.Then,in

thesummerof’71,threeyearsdowntheroad,IwasappointedtoalectureshipattheLSE;

butthatwasafterfivecandidateswhohadbeenplacedabovemehaddeclinedthe

lectureship!Ifyouaskmywifeshewilltellyouthatforalongwhileafterweweremarried

shewasworriedwhetherIwouldevergetajobthatwouldenableustosettledown.

Asaresearcher,whichcolleagueshavebeenparticularlyinfluentialorinspirationalmentors?

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AtthetimeIjoinedtheLSE,ithadaphenomenaleconomicsdepartment.(Itstilldoes.)

Bauer,Gorman,Hahn,Johnson,Morishima,Sargan,andSenareaformidablelistofnames,

byanystandard.(HahnhadleftforCambridge,butvisitedforadayeverytwoweeks.)

Noneofthemwasparticularlyinterestedinmyresearchinterests,though.Maybethatwas

becauseIdidn’thaveanyparticularinterestsinthosedays.IntellectuallyIwasstillquite

rootless.Butmyseniorcolleaguesweresupportiveoftheyoung.Iwasleftalonetogeton

withmywork,which,however,wasn’tmuch.Ithinkbeingleftalonewasgoodformy

development;itmeantIdidn’tgetdepressedthatIwasn’tproducingpapersbytheweek.I

wasinfluencedmorebymycontemporaries,especiallyJosephStiglitz,whomImetway

backin’65whenIhadjustmovedtoeconomics.Hewasinspiringeventhen,brimming

withideas.ThecontrastwithmewasallthemoresharpbecauseIrarelyhadanidea.I

oweStiglitzanun‐repayabledebtbecausehemademefeelasthoughIwascontributingto

ourjointwork,evenwhileIwasunsurewhatIwasbringingtotheproverbialtable.Geoff

HealwasanothercontemporarywhoseworkandengagementIfoundexciting.We

collaboratedallthroughthe1970sindevelopingtheeconomicsofexhaustibleresources.

AmongmyseniorcolleaguesattheLSE,IsawmuchofAmartyaSen,fromwhomIlearnt

howonemightinterpreteconomicdevelopment.Hehadstyleandaflairforpolemics.I

readprettymucheverythinghewroteatthattime.Inrecentyearsourvisionsofwhat

economicsshouldbeabouthavedivergedsomewhat.Thatmaybewhywehaven’tseen

muchofeachother.AsfarasIcanjudgehefeelsdevelopmenteconomicsshouldgetcloser

tomoralphilosophyandhasinfluencedinternationalagenciesandcharitiestoadoptthat

position,whereasIamconvincedthesubject’sgreatestweaknessliesinthatit’snot

informedbythenaturalsciences,especiallyecology.Idon’tthinkthefailureofofficial

developmenteconomicstosuccessfullyaddressextremepovertyanddemographicdistress

inthepoorestcountrieshashadanythingtodowithnotknowingwhatpovertyorjustice

mean,ratheritseemstometheanswerliesinthefactthatprofessionalshaveneglectedto

uncoverthepathwaysthatdeterminethepoverty‐population‐environmentnexus.Ifyou

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readSen’sfamous1999book,DevelopmentasFreedomandhisrecentbook,TheIdeaof

Justice,andmy1993book,AnInquiryintoWell‐BeingandDestitutionandmy2001book,

HumanWell‐BeingandtheNaturalEnvironment,youwillseewhatImean.Forexample,in

hisbookonjustice,Senmakesithiscentralpoint(orsoithasbeenreadbyreviewersinUK

newspapersandliterarymagazines)tocriticizeRawls’theoryofjusticeongroundsthatthe

theorycharacterizesthejustsociety,theattainmentofwhichpresupposesawell‐ordered

society;whereasausefultheoryshouldbeabletoprovideamoralrankingofunjust

societiestoo,evendysfunctionalsocieties.Idon’tknowwhetherSen’schargeagainstRawls

willbefoundbyexpertstostick,whatIdoknowisthathisviewofwhattheoriesofjustice

shouldofferisbreadandbutterinmodernwelfareeconomics.Theideaofasocialwelfare

function,nowover70yearsold,doespreciselythat.Itranksallalternatives;itdoesn’t

merelyidentifywhat’sjudgedbythetheoryofjusticetobethebest.TheoriesoftheSecond

Best,constructedbyJamesMeadein1955,areanillustrationofwhatImean.Buteventhe

usageoftheterm“secondbest”carrieswithitthethoughtthatthesocietyunderstudyis

nearlyjust.Soitstruckmesomeyearsagothatwhatneededdoingwastoapplytheideaof

asocialwelfarefunctiontoreworkwelfareeconomicsanddevelopaunifiedtheoryof

policyevaluationthatcoversnotonlyUtopia(theideallyorderedsociety)andAgathotopia

(Meade’snameforaGoodEnoughsociety),butalsoKakotopia(thenameIgaveto

dysfunctionalsocieties).Inmy2001bookIjustmentioned,Ididthat,anditrequiredofme

tostudyanumberofsocio‐ecologicalpathwaysthatsustaindysfunctionalsocieties.It

seemstomethat’swherethehardworklies,unearthingfurtherpathwaysthatarebound

tobesitespecificandtimespecific.ButIfoundnoreferencetothatapplied‐theoreticwork

inSen’sbookonjustice.ButatthetimeIspeakof,the1970sattheLSE,Ididn’tknowmuch

aboutdevelopmenteconomics,certainlyIdidn’tknowthenthewayIwouldsubsequently

cometoframeandstudythestateofaffairscalledpoverty.

Bythemid‐1970sIhadworkedonseveralfields.OnereasonImovedfieldsthenandhave

continuedtodosoisthatIhaven’thadapropertrainingineconomics.Workingonafield

hasbeenmywayofgettingacquaintedwithit.Forexample,whenIstartedworkingon

industrialorganizationandtechnologicalchangewithStiglitz(thatwasin1975or

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thereabouts),Ihadlittlepriorknowledgeofthesubject.Ignorancemayhavebeenahelp,

though.AsIdidn’tknowtheliterature,Iwasn’tmindedtomakeanadvanceonsomeone

else’swork.StiglitzandIsimplychattedaboutwhatmightdriveanentrepreneurto

innovate.Oncewehadarrivedataformulation,Iwassufficientlyintriguedtoread

SchumpeterandScherer,whowereverymuchworthreadingofcourse;butitwasaswellI

hadn’treadthembefore.TheirstylewasverydifferentfromtheoneStiglitzandIadopted

inourattempttounderstandthecharacteroftechnologicalcompetition.

Ignorancehashelpedmyworkoverandoveragain.Forexample,evenaftercompleting

thefirstpaperGeoffHealandIwrotetogether,ontheoptimaldepletionofexhaustible

resources,Ididn’tknowofHotelling’snow‐famouspaperof1931.Inthisinstanceevenmy

coauthordidn’tknowit.WelearntofthatpaperfromRobertSolow.Myguessisthatif

we’dreadthepaperbeforestartingourwork,wewouldhavemodeledtheproblemasan

extensionofHotelling’swork,whichwasentirelyMarshallian,partialequilibrium.Heal

andIknewsomecapitalandgrowththeory,sowefounditnaturaltoembedthe

exhaustibleresourceinalargereconomy.Iliketothinkourpaperhelpedframethe

contemporaryliteratureonsustainabledevelopment.

GENERALTHOUGHTSONRESEARCH

Thereisanincreasingemphasisatmanyeconomicsdepartmentsonappliedresearch.Isthis

trueatCambridge?

YesandIamallforit.Icertainlytriedtobringmoreappliedpeopleintomydepartmentin

CambridgewhenIwasChairman.Ifeltwewereparticularlyweakthere,especiallyin

appliedmicro‐econometrics.Traditionally,theFacultyofEconomicsatCambridgehas

beenofahighlytheoreticalbent.Onereasonisthat,atleastsinceWorldWarII,therewas

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aseparatedepartmentcalledtheDepartmentofAppliedEconomics(DAE),whichhadbeen

establishedowingtoKeynes’urgings,essentiallytoadvisehimonthekindofnumerical

figuresheneededforhisownwork.IcanonlythinkCambridgewasamostpatriarchal

society(laughs).TheDAEbuiltitsreputationonitsfirstDirectorRichardStone’s

innovativeworkonconsumptionandthesocialaccountingframeworkthat’sneededto

describeaneconomy’sdoings.ItmaybethatbecausetheDAEwasinthesamebuildingas

theFacultyofEconomics,appointmentsintheeconomicsdepartment,whichdidmostof

thelecturing,weremainlyineconomictheory.WhenIwasastudent,thegreatnames

wereJoanRobinson,NicholasKaldor,andPieroSraffa,whowerealltheorists.Itmakesme

blusheventothinkofwhatRobinson,Kaldor,andSraffathoughtappliedeconomics

amountsto.Theyreallywerehard‐lineMandarins.IthinkAustinRobinsonwastheonly

appliedeconomistofnoteintheFacultywhenIwasdoingmyPhD.JamesMeadewasalso

intheFaculty,andhestraddledboththeoryandempiricalpolicywithenormous

distinction,butthepoliticsintheplaceatthattimewassovirulentthatheremainedan

outsiderevenwhileoccupyingtheProfessorshipofPoliticalEconomy.

Asyouknow,appliedeconomics(bywhichImeanappliedmicroeconomics)hasgrownby

leapsandboundsinthelast30to40years,butourdepartmentisnotyetabalancedone.

Weareprettystronginmicroeconomictheory,notsostronginappliedmicroeconomics.

Macroeconomicsremainsamysterytome.MeanwhiletheDAEhasclosed.Thequalityof

itsresearchhaddeteriorated.Likemostotherthink‐tanks,itsurvivedonsoftmoney,

whichmeantithadtochaseresearchprogramsthatotherswereinterestedin.That

doesn’tdomuchfortheuniversityitinhabits.That’snottosaytherearen’toutstanding

researchcentresbuiltonsoftmoney.TheInstituteforFiscalStudiesisexcellent,butthat’s

inLondon.

Whatdoyouseeasthevalueofpureversusappliedresearchineconomics?

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Botharevaluable.I’mnotabelieverin“relevant”theory,though.It’shardtotellin

advancewhen,ifever,goodtheorywillturnouttobeusefulinpractical,policyterms.Take

thecaseofFrankRamsey’s1928paper.Ramseyaskedhowmuchofaneconomy’snational

incomeshouldbesaved.1Itwasahighlymathematical,esotericpieceofwork.Foralong

whilethepaperlanguished,probablybecausetheworldenteredadepressionandnobody

wasinterestedinthelongrun.ButafterWorldWarII,peoplebecameinterestedinthe

long‐termdevelopmentofnations,suchasIndia,andRamsey’swastheobvioustheoretical

toolforoneclassofquestions,concerningtheoptimalmagnitudeandcompositionof

investmentactivityovertime.SoRamsey’squestionandthewayheframeditbecame

usefuleventoeconomistswithahugeinterestinpolicy,suchasJanTinbergen.Atthetime

IwasworkingonmyPhD,myteacherssuchasJoanRobinsonusedtothinkRamsey’spaper

wasabouthowmanyangelsareabletodanceontheheadofapin.Recentlythepaperhas

madeanotherreturnintheeconomicsofclimatechange.Ramsey’spapercontainstheonly

machineryavailableforthinkingaboutthelong‐termtrade‐offs.

Myfatheroncesaidthatifyouseeapieceoftheorythatlooksdirectlyapplicable,you

shouldbesuspicious.Ithinkhemeantthatifthetheoryissodesignedthatthegap

betweenitsformulationandapplicationissmall,thereshouldbeasuspicionthetheory

mayhavebeendoctoredtosuittheanswerdesiredbyitsauthorsortheirpatrons.The

advantageofmaintainingacertaindistancebetweentheoryandpolicyisthatitencourages

theauthortoseekdeepanswers,notshallowones.I’mnotsayingalltheoreticalpapers

shouldbelikethat,butit’sthemoreesoterictypeoftheoreticalworkthatgetscriticizedfor

theirlackof“relevance”.Myfatherprovidedasophisticateddefenseofpuretheory.

Howwouldyoudescribeyourownresearchagendaandhowhasitchangedovertime?

                                                            1RamseyF.P.(1928),‘AMathematicalTheoryofSaving’,EconomicJournal,Vol.38,No.152,pp.543‐559. 

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Mostofmyworkhasbeenonwhatisoftencalled“appliedtheory”.Nooneisthebestjudge

oftheirownwork,butIbelievemuchofmyworkhassprungfromthegroundup,

motivatedbysomephenomenonouttherethatdemandsaninvestigation.Ofcourse,being

atheoristbytemperamentandtraining,Iprettysoonliftthephenomenonupmanymiles,

sothatitmayevenbecomeunrecognizablebythetimeIamdonewithit,butIliketothink

it’sstilllikelytobeusefultosomeoneconcernedwiththephenomenon.

Doyouthinkitisimportanttohavebroadresearchinterests?

It’samatterofpersonaltaste,nothingmore.GerardDebreuisagoodexampleofsomeone

whodidfoundationalwork,butnevertookinterestinanythingotherthananarrowsetof

veryabstractproblems.AndWassilyLeontiefappearedtometoberatherdull(input‐

outputtables,notmuchelse),butIonlymethimwhenhewasquiteold.Debreuisone

extreme.AttheotherendisKennethArrow,whoisinterestedinahugenumberof

problemsandcanexplainwhyweshouldbeinterestedinthem.Andofcourse,hehas

writtenfundamentalpapersonprettymuchanysubjecthehastouched.In1975Icame

across,quitebychance,hisshortbookTheLimitsofOrganization,andittransformedmy

work.IhadknownArrow’sworkonsocialchoice,generalequilibrium,technicalprogress,

health,andeconomicexternalities,ofcourse,butasIreadthatlittlebookofhis,Icouldfeel

thatatlastIknewwhatbasicresearchinthesocialsciencesamountstoandhowtogo

aboutit.AmongeconomictheoristsofmygenerationJoeStiglitzhasthewidestreachin

termsofresearchinterests.Heissimplyphenomenal.

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Doyouthinkthereisanydifferenceinthetypesofworkdonebyresearchersatdifferent

stagesoftheircareersbasedontenureconcerns,publicationrequirementsorother

pressures?Shouldtherebeadifference?

Theanswertothefirstpartofthequestionis“yes.”TheAmericanPhDprogramisvery

muchlikeanapprenticeship,whichEnglandisnowmimicking.Studentstendtotaketheir

supervisors’researchlead.Thismeansthatatanearlystage,youareshapedbysomeone

else’sstyleofresearch.Andthereisnoquestionthat,intellectually,wearehistory‐

dependent.Ourcapitalstockiscreatedbythetimewe’re27or28,andittakesquitesome

timetoovercomeitandbreakoutonone’sown.

Theanswertothesecondpartofthequestionisalso“yes.”ManyyearsagoBobSolowput

itnicely.IfIrememberhimcorrectly,hesaidthereallyhardproblemsinthesocial

sciencesrelatetopolicy.Thathoweverlookseasy,whichiswhyeventaxidriverswithno

trainingineconomicsspoutonit.Solowsaidthetechnicalstuffisrelativelyeasy,although

seeminglyverydifficult.Healsosaidhelikedyoungeconomiststogettheirfingersburnt

inthetechnicalstuffandwouldn’ttrustsomeonewiththepolicystuffifheorshehadn’t

undergonethetechnicaltest.

Intheend,doyouthinktheeconomicsprofessionhashelpedtobringoutandshapeyour

researchforthebest?

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Ithinkso.Ihavebeenveryluckyandtheprofessionhasbeengoodtome;butinan

unusualway.Judgingbycitations,orratherthelackofthem,mostofmysoloworkhas

goneunnoticed,butbytheremarksmycolleaguesmake,Ihavethesensetheyapproveof

thetitlesofmypublications.RecentlyIhadtoprepareIntroductionsforapairofvolumes

ofmycollectedpapersthatOxfordUniversityPresswillbepublishing,soitmademe

reflectonwhatothersweredoingwhenIworkedonaparticularsetofproblemsandwhyI

chosetoworkonthemandhowIframedtheproblemsandwhy.Iguesssuchreflective

momentsareasignofgettingold!IndraftingtheIntroductionsitcametomethatIhavea

non‐standardwayofframingsocialproblems.Forexample,Ihavewrittenextensivelyon

thepoverty‐population‐environmentinterface.Butithasn’thadtheslightestimpacton

developmenteconomistsoronenvironmentalandresourceeconomists.Andthepaperson

populationandfertilitybehaviourhavegoneunnotedbyeconomicdemographers.Itmay

bethatIamremorselessintryingtolinkseeminglydisparatefeaturesofdailylife,and

becauseweeconomistsaretrainedtoconsiderthemonlypiecebypiece,oneatatime,my

analysesprobablyappearsalientomycolleagues.Forexample,ifI’mstudyingtheway

ruralpeopleusenaturalresources(e.g.disappearingforests),Ican’tresistmodelingsuch

otherhumanactivitiesintheworldofthepoorasreproduction.Theproblemformeisthat

thetypicalenvironmentaleconomistisunfamiliarwiththeword“poverty”,the

developmenteconomistwon’tknowhowtospell“environment”,andtheeconomic

demographerthinksfertilitydependsentirelyonthevalueoftime.SoIfaceaproblem.

WhatcontinuestosurprisemethoughisthatthisintellectualdistanceIfeelthatseparates

mefrommycolleagueshasn’tmademeanoutsider:Ihaveenjoyedmorethanmyfair

shareofhonours.

Oneadvantageofframingproblemsinaquirkyfashion,it’snotaconsciousdecisionof

course,isthatI’vebeenabletogetonwithmythinkingwithouthavingtocompetewith

others.YouwillnoticefrommyCVthatIhavemanypapersonthesamesubject.One

reasonIhavedonethisisthatwhenworkingonmyownIhaverarelyarrivedatan

understandingofthephenomenonIwasstudyinginonepaper;it’sbeenalmostalways

incremental.Discoveryformehasusuallymeantagrowingrealization,rarelyarevelation.

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IhavebeenabletoindulgeinthatslowprocessbecauseIwasawareIwouldn’tbebeaten

tothepostbysomebodyelse–nobodyelsewouldbeworkingonmyproblems,most

certainlynoonewouldhaveframedtheproblemsinthewayIdo!So,Ihavehadavery,

veryluckylife.Colleaguesseemtoapprovemywork,eventhoughmostlytheydon’tread

anyofit(laughs).

IDEAGENERATION

Wheredoyougetyourresearchideas?

Byobservation,Iguess.Ononeoccasionintheearly‐‘80s,whenpassingthroughCalcutta

onmywaytovisitmyparentsinSantiniketan,Inoticedthatthebabyofamotherbeggar

onthesidewalkwasbeingmolestedbyflies.Ithought,“That’sodd.Whyisn’tthebaby

swattingtheflies?”Thenitdawnedonmethatthebabywasconservingenergy.That

eventuallytriggeredmyjointworkwithDebrajRayonmalnutritionandthecapacityto

work.Ofcourse,hehadbeenthinkingalongsimilarlinesbeforewemetatStanford,which

ishowwecametocollaborate,butitwasacasualobservationthatledmetoseekatheory

thatwouldcoverwhatIhadobserved.WhenRayandIdiscoveredwehadbeenthinking

alongsimilarlines,weclosedthedeal,sotospeak,andproducedouranalysis.

IfyoutravelbytraininWestBengal,youwillnoticethateveryvillagehasapond,

supplyingwaterfordrinking,washing,andcultivatingrootcrops.Onseveralsuchjourneys

Iobservedthatvillagershavebuilttheirhomesveryclosetooneanotheraroundtheir

pond.Why?Oneansweristhatyouhavemorelandforcultivationifyoucrowdthehuts.

Itoccurredtomethatanotherpossibleanswerwasthatclosenesswouldenablepeopleto

observeeachother’sbehavioureasily.Weknowoftheoldadagethatinthethirdworld

there’snoprivacy.Butmaybeyoudon’tenjoyprivacybecauselifethereisbuiltonsocial

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norms.Therearefewprivatepropertyrightstothosecommons,sopresumably

communitieshavehadtodevisenormsofbehavior.Andnormsofbehaviorinvolve

sanctionsformisbehavior.Buthowdoyouknowsomebodyhasmisbehaved?Youhaveto

observeit.Thoseproblemsledmetothethennascentliteratureonsocialcapital,andI

triedtounderstandtheconceptintermsofmodernresourceallocationtheory.

Atwhatpointdoesanideabecomeaprojectthatyoudevoteresourcesto?

I’veneverhadaprojectinthesensemostpeoplemeanbyaproject.I’veneverappliedfora

researchgrant.Myguessisthatyouhavetohaveafairlywell‐definednotionofwhatyou

wanttoaccomplishwhenyouapplyforagrant.ButmostlyI’venotevenbeenableto

framethequestionIwastacklinguntillocatingtheanswer.So,bythetimeImighthave

beeninapositiontoapplyforagrant,I’dcompletedthepaperandmovedontoanewset

ofproblems,onesthatIwouldbeunabletoarticulate.Ofcourse,Ihaveenjoyedgrants

indirectly.ForseveralyearsJoeStiglitzincludedmeinhisgrantapplications,butitwashe

whohadanideaofwherewewouldbeheading.

Myresearchpracticesareveryold‐fashioned.Idoalltheancillaryworkthat’sneededtobe

doneinpreparingapaper:readingotherpeople’swork,referencing,checkingcitations,

proof‐reading,thewholeworks.EvennowIdon’tGoogleforreferences;Igotothelibrary

andbrowse.Thelatterisapleasureinitself.InthecourseofbrowsingIfrequentlyfind

veryinterestingthingstoread,materialIdidn’tknowexisted.Mybook,AnInquiryinto

Well‐BeingandDestitution,hasabout65pagesofreferences.Believeme,Iread,oratthe

veryleastglancedat,eachoftheitemsmentioned,allinlibraries.ForcertainchaptersI

usedtowalktothelibraryofAddenbrooke’sHospital(ourUniversityhospital),quitea

distancefromtheUniversityLibrary,becausethat’swhereIcouldbrowsetheliteratureon

clinicalunder‐nutrition.Indescribingmylongstandingworkhabit,Iamneither

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apologizingnorbragging.It’showIhavealwaysworked.Ihavealwaysfeltchasing

materialispartofmyjob.

IDEAEXECUTION

Whatmakesagoodtheoreticalpaper?

Itshouldhaveasurprise.

Whatmakesagoodempiricalpaper?

Goodappliedworkdoesn’tnecessarilyhavetohaveasurprisebecauseyoumaybe

engagedinrepeatingapreviousinvestigationinadifferentgeographicallocation.Thatcan

beextremelyvaluablework.Youmaydiscoversubtledifferencesfromthefindingsof

previousinvestigators,andthatmightsuggestthatthephenomenonissite‐specific,a

frequentcharacteristicofphenomenainthesocialsciencesandchallengingtothetheorist.

Oftenitmaybethatyouareinvestigatingthesamephenomenonothershaveexamined,but

youaredeployingbettertools;andsoon.Forexample,thetheoreticalmodelsKenneth

Arrow,KarlGoranMaler,andIhavebeendevelopingoverthepastfewyearsshowthat

thatwealthchangesratherthanmovementsinGDPpercapitaarethetrueindicatorsofthe

progressandregressofnations.Butthen,whatiswealth?Itmustbethevalueofall

capitalassetsofaneconomy.Doesthatincludenaturalcapital?Ofcourseitdoes.So,ifa

nationalincomeaccountantclaimsthatthesavingsratioinBrazilisnearly15%,weshould

respondbyinsistingthatthestatisticdoesn’ttakeintoaccounttheforeststhatarebeing

16  

razedthere.That’sdepreciationandshouldbedeductedfromsavings.Ifaccountantsbuy

theargument,theywouldrepeattheexercisebydeductingforestdepletion.Theresearch

wouldn’tbenovelintheconventionalsense,butitwouldbeilluminatinganduseful.

Whenyouhita“brickwall”onapaper,doyoucontinuetoworkontheproblemordoyoutake

abreakfromitandworkonsomethingelse?

Itakeabreakandthen,USUALLY,serendipitously,Igetananswer.EricMaskinandIonce

workedonapaperthattookustenyearstocomplete.Itwasontheexistenceof

equilibriumingamesinwhichpayofffunctionsarediscontinuities.Itwasveryesoteric

stuffingametheory(notthesortyouwouldboreyourpartnerwith),butMaskinandI

thoughtitwasimportanttodeterminewhethersuchgamespossessNashequilibria(in

mixedstrategies).Prettyquicklywemanagedtoproveanexistencetheorem,butitwas

onlyforsymmetricgames,meaningthatplayerswereassumedtobeidentical.Nowwe

couldhavetriedtopublishthatresult,infactallthethenexistingtheoreticalmodelswith

discontinuouspayofffunctionsweresymmetrical,whichisaperfectlysensiblemodeling

strategytoadoptwhentryingtocapturesomethingelseaboutthephenomenaouttherein

theworld;butMaskinandIchosenottosubmitourresultforpublication.Andthereason

wedidn’tisthatweknewwehadn’tdugdeepenough,westilldidn’tunderstandthe

underlyingstructureoftheproblem.So,wesatontheproblemforsomemoretime.Then,

inonesetofinterchangeswefoundasimpletrickthatenabledustoprovetheresultinits

generality.

Relatedtothepreviousquestion,whenitappearsthataprojectisn’tgoingtoturnoutas

hoped,doyouscrapitoraimtosendthepapertoasecond‐tierjournal?

17  

Ihavebeenenormouslylucky.I’verarelybeeninvolvedinapaperthathasn’teventually

beenpublished.Therehaveofcoursebeenoccasionswhenasubmissiondidn’tget

accepted,butIalwaysinterpretedrejectiontomeanIhadn’tdraftedtheworkwell.That

meantworkingontheproblemsomemoreandimprovingtheexposition.ButIdon’tthink

Ihaveentirelyabandonedanywork.AndI’vealsohadamazingluckwitheditors.Over40

yearsIhavefoundjournaleditorsalmostalwaystobefairandencouraging.Journal

editorsgenerallygetabadpress,sotherewasoneoccasionIcan’thelprecalling,to

illustratehowshrewdandfair‐mindededitorscanbe:

Inthemid1980smyfriendDebrajRayandIdevelopedatimelessgeneralequilibrium

modelinaworldwherenutritionaffectsproductivity,aprojectImentionedearlier.There

weresomeinterestingtechnicalproblemsthatthemodelthrewup(havingtodowithnon‐

convexitiesinnutrition‐to‐productivitytransformationpossibilities),anditshowed,among

otherthings,howandwhyequilibriumallocationscanviolatehorizontalequity,inthe

sensethatverysimilarpeopleendupwithvastlydifferentutilitylevels.Arrow‐Debreu

equilibria,asyouknow,satisfytheprincipleofhorizontalequity.RayandIshowedthatin

arichworldtheprinciplewouldbemaintained,butnotinapoorworld.Andweidentified

severalotherpropertiesofthemodel,eachofwhichspoketotheworldwebelievedwe

knewinIndia.Sowefeltwehadunderstoodsomethingofimportanceaboutthenatureof

poverty;andwesubmittedthepapertotheEconomicJournal.Inreturnwegotareferee’s

reportthatwas8pageslonginA4,singlespacedpaper,offeringasmanyreasonsasyou

caretonumberastowhythepapershouldberejected.Therefereebasicallyhadsatdown

andaskedhowmanyreasonshecouldthinkoffornotlikingthepaper.RayandIcouldtell

therefereewastechnicallyproficient,butwecouldalsotellthathehadlittleimagination

andsufferedfromaninabilitytodiscovergeneraltruthsfromnon‐standardmodels.Now

youwouldthinktheEditor,whowastheeconomichistorianCharlesFeinstein,wouldhave

writtentometoaskwhyIhadwastedhistimesubmittingsuchashoddypieceofwork.

Buthedidn’t.Hesmeltsomethingnotrightinthereport,therefereehadgoneforover‐kill,

sohewrotetosaythat,obviously,hecouldn’tacceptthepaperasitwasdrafted,butthathe

wouldpublishitifRayandIre‐wroteit,havingdealtwithallthereasonstherefereehad

18  

collatedforrecommendingrejection.RayandIdidthat,andthepaperwaspublishedin

twoinstallments.Idon’tknowifmanypeoplehavereadthepaper,butithasbeenthe

basisonwhichIhavetriedtounderstandpovertytraps.

Whatwouldyousayhasbeenthebiggestchange,inthecourseofyourcareer,inhowyour

researchfieldsconductresearch?

Peoplearealottensernowaboutresearchthantheywereinmytime.Icanseethat

amongstyoungcolleagues.Lifefortheresearcherishardertoday.Thereisfargreater

competition.Moreover,familylifehaschangedbeyondrecognition.Andremember,

economicsremainsamaleprofession.InUKeconomicsdepartments,womenaverage

round10percentofseniorappointments.Responsibilitiesathomeamongmaleshave

changedenormouslyandthataddstothepressure.IliketothinkIwasagoodfatherand

husband,butthedivisionoflaborbetweenmywifeandI,onethatwereachedwithout

thinking,wouldbeunthinkabletoday.

THEWRITINGPROCESS

Whichaspectofthewritingprocessdoyoufindmostdifficult?

Iusedtofindwritingdifficult,buthavinggainedexperienceovertheyearsIfinditmuch

easiernow.Thewordprocessorhasofcoursehelped.Ifrequentlytaketheleadinwriting

afirstdraftwhenworkingincollaboration,largelybecauseIenjoycomposingpapers.In

19  

theprocessofdrafting,basedonnotes,Iatlastbegintounderstandthepointofthepaper

wehavebeenworkingon(laughs).

COLLABORATION

Whenyouworkwithco‐authors,howdoyoudecidewhomtoworkwith?

IfyoulookatmyCV,youwillfindanenormousamountofcollaborativework.Swapping

ideasisalwaysgoodanditalsoencouragesfriendship.Conferencesareterrificbreeding

groundsforcollaborativeresearchandmyguessisthatsomepersonalrelationshipsdo

thendevelop.Butinmycase,thecausalchainhasbeenthereverse.Almostalwaysthe

collaborationstartsoveraconversationwithafriend,maybeoveradrink,anideacomes

up,andthenweworkonittogether.Joe(Stiglitz),Eric(Maskin),Karl‐Goran(Maler)and

Geoff(Heal)werefriendsfirst;collaborationcamelater.InthecaseofKenArrow,

collaborationbeganmanyyearsafterwefirstmet,butthat’sbecauseIusedtobeterrified

ofhim.Itwasnofaultofhis,butforalongtimeIfoundconversationswithhimanagony.

Itslowlydawnedonmethattheproblemwaswithme,thatArrowbelieveseveryoneisas

deepandquickashe.That’stheonlyintellectualerrorIhaveeverknownhimtomake,but

onceIrealizedhewouldn’tnoticemyintellectualshortcomings,Ifounditpossibleto

collaboratewithhim!It’sbeennotonlyaprivilege,butawhollypleasurableexperience.

Howdoyouinteractwithyourco‐authors(bye‐mail,phone,orface‐to‐facemeetings)?

WithMalerit’sbeenfacetofacediscussions,butthat’sbecausewehavemetfrequently

overtheyearsinconnectionwiththeteachingprogrammesheandIhelpedtoinitiatein

SouthAsiaandsub‐SaharanAfrica.WithMaskin,too,it’sneveronthephoneorbye‐mail,

20  

it’salwaysbeenface‐to‐face;butthat’sbecauseovertheyearsheandhiswifeGaylehave

madeitapointtostayintouchwithus,ashavemywifeCarolandIwiththem.Maskinand

Ihaveadiscussionandthenwedoourwritingseparately.We’reabouttowriteapaperon

aproblemwherewedon’tknowwhichoftwomodelsweoughttousetoillustratethe

pointwewanttomake.Hehasone,Ihaveanother.Butwewillwritedownbothmodels

andthendecidewhichbestmakesthepointswewanttomake.

WithStiglitzitusedtobewalksinOxfordorPrincetonorwhilehecookedsupper.He

wouldtalknineteentothedozen,throwingoutonemodelafteranothertocapturea

phenomenonweagreedwasworthunderstanding.WithKenArrowit’sbeenameetingor

twowherewehavediscussedaproblem,followedbye‐mailexchangesonhowbestto

modelthephenomenon,orasina5‐waypaperwehavejustcompleted(withLarry

Goulder,KevinMumford,andKirstenOleson),mostofthediscussionswereheldover

conferencecalls.

SEMINARPARTICIPATIONANDNETWORKING

Howimportantisnetworkingtosuccessinresearch?

It’sveryimportant.Itwasveryimportantevenintimeslonggone.Isolationisnevera

goodthing.IremembertalkingtoFredHoyle,thegreatastrophysicist,whocourted

notoriety.Asweallknow,heheldontothesteadystatetheoryoftheuniverse.Henever

gaveuponit,partlyIbelievebecausehechosetobeisolated.Iamtoldbyfriendswho

know,thathisbestpaperswereearlycollaborativeefforts,likehisworkonhowheavy

21  

elementsarecookedupinthestars.ButwhenImethim,itmusthavebeentenyearsago,

helivedoutofreachfromuniversitycampuses.Ontheoccasionwesatnexttoeachother

atdinneratStJohn’sCollege,Iaskedhimifhedidn’tfeelisolated.Andhereplied,“Oh,no,

that’stheadvantage–Idon’tgetcontaminatedbyotherpeople’sideas.”Ithoughtitwas

sadthatsuchapowerfulmindcouldbesowrong.

Towhatextentistheabsenceofdepartmentalcolleaguesworkinginone’sareaamajor

disadvantage?

Idon’tthinkit’samajordisadvantage.AsImentionedearlier,attheLSE,Iwasisolatedin

termsoftheworkIwasdoing,butIalwayshadaccesstothegreatmindsthere.

Conversationswithpowerfulminds,eveniftheydon’tworkontheproblemsyouworkon,

isalwayshelpful.Itkeepsyoualertandpreventsyoufrombecomingsloppy.Theysetthe

standard,ifyouseewhatImean.Forexample,inFrankHahn’spresenceonecouldnever

sayanythingremotelyimprecise;hewouldtellyouinaboomingvoicethatyouhad

slackenedyourintellectualmuscles,maybeeventhatyouhadbeeneducatedbeyondyour

naturallimits.Andwhowantstobetoldthatinpublic?Moreover,eventhoughmy

colleaguesattheLSE,andlateratStanford,didn’tworkonmyproblems,theywereworld

expertsintheirfieldsofexpertise.Icould,anddid,picktheirbrainsforwhattoread.

WhenIwasatStanfordin1989‐91,workingonmybookonWell‐BeingandDestitution,it’s

notthatanyofmycolleagueshadmuchinterestinthesubject,butIcouldalwayscollar

themonthecorridorforaquicktutorialonsometechnicalmatterIhadn’tunderstood,or

neededareferencetoapaperthatwouldexplainsomethingIwantedtounderstand.My

colleaguessavedmehoursofworkbytellingmewhattoreadandexplainingsomethingI

hadnotunderstood.

COMMUNICATIONOFRESEARCH

22  

Howdoyoufindtherightbalancebetweencommunicatingyourresearchatanearlystage

versusthe“close‐to‐finished”stage?

IthastobeaprettyfinishedpaperbeforeIputituponmywebsite.Ifyouhavethatoption,

youshouldexploitit.Inthepast,youhadtorelyonbeingpartofadiscussionpaperseries

thatwasthenmailedtoarestrictednumberofpeople.Beingabletoretrieveother

people’swritingseasilytodayisanenormousboon.

Whataretheuniquechallengestogivingaseminarandhowdoyouovercomethem?

Ihaven’tbeenworriedaboutseminars.IthinkI’mfairlyarticulate;inanycase,Ilike

teaching,andI’mgenerallynotshytotalkaboutmyownwork.Ofcourse,therehavebeen

occasionswhenaseminarhasgonebadly;butthat’sgenerallybeenbecauseIwasn’t

particularlyproudofthequalityofthepaperIwaspresenting.Ifyoudon’tfindyourown

workexciting,youraudiencewillknowthatprettyquickly,whichiswhenyoustart

wonderingwhentheseminarwillend.

Doyouhaveanyadviceforayoungscholarongivingaseminar?

Beexcitedaboutyourpaper.Ofcourse,theproblemissomewhattheotherwayin

America,wherethereisabundantself‐confidence.AndsotheadviceIwouldgivetoyoung

scholarsthereis,don’toverrateyourself.Veryoften,Ihearseminarswherethepresenter

thinkshe(it’sstillusuallya“he”)hassolvedtheworld’sgreatestproblem;worse,heoften

seemstobesellingaproduct.Overconfidenceinthequalityofyourownworkcandistort

yournotionofwhatisgenuinelyimportantwork.I’mnotsayingyoushouldbehumble,but

23  

it’sonethingtobeself‐confidentandateasewithyourself,it’sanothertothinkthatyouare

thegreatest.JustreadapageortwoofArrowandyouwillrealizeyouarenot.

PUBLICATION

Howdoyoudecideupontheappropriatejournaltosendyourworkto?Related,whomdoyou

viewasthereadershipofyourresearch?

Atmyage,Iwritequiteanumberofpapersthatareinvitedones.Youwriteinastyle

appropriatefortheoccasion.Butonthewhole,Ihavetendedtosendmyresearchpapers

tojournalswherethereaderismorelikelytobeinterestedinwhatIamdoing.It’sa

marriage;thereisanaturalplaceformostarticles.

Doyouthinkthatthecurrentstructureofthepublicationprocessineconomicsfacilitatesor

impedesscientificunderstandingandknowledgeproduction?

Today,thereisanobsessionwiththetopfivejournalsandIthinkit’sabsolutelydreadful.

It’sstallingprogress.Ifeelsobadforyoungscholarsbecausetheyareconvincedtheyhave

tosubmittheirworktoEconometricaortotheAmericanEconomicReview,wherethereis

morethan95percentchanceitwillberejected;thattooaftertwoyears.Itcanthenbethat

afterthreeyearsintoyourfirstjobyoustillhaven’tgotapublication.Attheendoftheday,

it’sthequalityofthepaperthatmattersratherthanwhereithasbeenpublished.The

problemis,people,especiallythoseareonappointmentsandtenurecommittees,don’t

appeartohaveconfidenceinjudgingapaperforitsquality.Sotheylookforqualitybythe

journalinwhichitwaspublished.

24  

Thepracticehassoannoyedme,it’snowarrivedinCambridge,thatsomeyearsagoIran

anexperimenttojudgehowtopthetop5journalsare.Asyouknow,overtheyearsthere

hasbeenabigincreaseinthenumberofeconomicsanthologies.ThepublisherEdward

Elgarhasproducedmorethan100anthologies,onvariousthemesineconomics.What

theydoistoprintabout500copiesandsellthemataveryhighpricetolibraries.Theyare

clevertocommissionwell‐knownpeopleaseditors.Thoseanthologiesareveryusefulto

universitylibrariesinpoorcountries.Theycan’taffordbooksorjournals,butatastretch

theycanaffordanthologies,whichgivestudentsandscholarstheopportunitytoreadthe

classicsintheirfield.Forteachingpurposesinathird‐worldcountry,theyareinvaluable.

WhatIdidwastoperuseadozenEdwardElgaranthologies.Afterall,ifexpertshaveedited

anthologies,theycouldbereliedupontoknowwhat’sstoodthetestoftime.Myvery

cursoryresearchsuggestedthatthemajorjournalsineconomicsareoverrated.Mostofthe

papersinthoseanthologieswerepublishedinjournalsotherthanthetop5.Thepointit

seemstomeisasimpleone.Thetop5journalspublishexcellentarticlesoncurrently

fashionabletopics.Thesignalingeffectofabilityiscertainlystrong.Butpapersthatmay

havelastingvalue,orarenovel,getcrowdedoutbygoodbutstandard‐qualitypaperson

hottopics.Isuspectsomeoftoday’sbestpapersareappearinginsecond‐tierjournals.It

wouldbeinterestingifsomeoneweretodoamorethoroughstudyofanthologiesthanI

wasabletodo.

Howwouldyoubestdescribeyourapproachtodealingwitha“reviseandresubmit”request

fromajournal?Howaboutanoutrightrejection?

I’veneverhadaquarrelwithaneditor.Therehaveofcoursebeeninstanceswheremy

submissionhasbeenrejectedandwhereIcouldhavewrittenalettershowingthatthe

25  

refereewasperhapsilliterate;worse,prejudiced.ButIneverfelttheneedtodothat.What

ItookawayfromarejectionwasthatI(orIandmyco‐author)hadnotdraftedthepaper

well.UsuallyIhavere‐draftedarejectedpaperandpublisheditelsewhere,sometimesina

betterjournal.

In1996,youhelpedtoestablishthejournal,EnvironmentandDevelopmentEconomics.Part

ofitspurposeistoprovideanopportunityforscholarsindevelopingcountriestopublishtheir

findingsinaninternationaljournal.Doyouthinkthereshouldbemoreexamplesofjournals

likethis?

Yes,ofcourse.Butifthejournalisgoingtobeanygood,submissionsmustgothroughthe

samescreeningprocessthatotherjournalsinsiston.Youmustn’tintroduceaffirmative

action.Howdoyouachievethat?Youneedtoensurethatthreethingshappen.First,the

editormustn’tnecessarilychuckapaperinthewayheorshewouldhaveifitwerea

standardjournal.Ifthereisasemblanceofanideainthesubmission,theeditorneedsto

besympatheticandshouldaskrefereesnotonlytoreferee,butalsotoactasmentors.

Secondly,youhavetobuildupabodyofacademicswhoarewillingtobethosementors.

Andthird,youneedfundstoenableauthorstospendtimewithoneoftheirmentorssoas

tobeabletocompletetheirpaperforpublication.

That’showit’sbeenworkingattheinterfaceofthejournalEnvironmentandDevelopment

EconomicsandtheSouthAsianNetworkforDevelopmentandEnvironmentalEconomics

(SANDEE).SANDEEhasinitsrostersuchoutstandingeconomistsasEnamulHaque,

SubhrenduPattanayak,PriyaShyamsundar,E.S.Somanathan,andJeffVincent.Theygivea

lotoftheirtimetoteachingandtrainingyoungscholarsfromBangladesh,India,Pakistan,

Nepal,andSriLanka.Karl‐GoranMalerandIhavealsobeenengagedinthatwork,aswe

26  

hadbeeninvolvedinobtainingthefundsforstartingSANDEE.Collectively,wehavebeen

hugelysuccessful.Journalarticles(inEnvironmentandDevelopmentEconomics;eventhe

ProceedingsoftheNationalAcademyofSciences)andcollectionsofarticlesonselected

themeshavebeenpublishedbyscholarswhoenteredtheinternationalacademic

communityfirstbyattendingSANDEEteachingandtrainingworkshops.It’sthemost

excitingventureIhaveeverbeeninvolvedin.

Butbuildingcapacityinpoorregionstakespatience,time,andagreatdealofgoodwill.

Anditrequiresacollegiateatmosphere.SANDEE’sdirector,PriyaShyamsundar,isan

outstandingenvironmentaleconomistinherownright,butisalsosimplyoutoftheworld

asaleader,mentor,andadministrator.MalerandIareinaweofher.Wedowhatevershe

asksustodo,whenever.

Perhapsthemoststrikingexampleofsuccessisthecaseofawomaneconomist,Saudamini

Das,whocamefromanout‐of‐the‐wayplaceintheintellectuallyunpromisingstateof

Orissa.Shehadabitofeconomicstraining,hadraisedafamily,andthensoughtto

understandtheroleofmangroves,whichareanimportantformofnaturalcapitalin

hurricaneriddenOrissa.SheattendedaSANDEEteachingandresearchworkshop,was

successfulinobtainingagrantfromSANDEE(wearetalkingofatmost$12,000,sothisis

researchonthecheap)andeventuallyproducedajointpaperwithhermentoratSANDEE,

JeffVincent,whoisoneofthebestmindsinenvironmentalandresourceeconomics.The

paperwaspublishedlastyearintheProceedingsoftheNationalAcademyofScience.Thisis

researchthatcamefromtheheart,toputitoneway.Dasknewthatmangrovesprotect

coastalvillagers.EveryNGOorinternationalorganizationIknowwillagreethat

mangrovesareanimportantformofnaturalcapital.Buthowimportantarethey?Dowe

haveanyquantitativefeelforhowmuchofabufferingcapacityitofferstoshorelines?Das

andVincentuseddataontheeffectoftheIndonesianTsunamioncoastalvillagestoshow

ushowtoestimatethesocialworthofmangroves.Theirsisaveryimportantpaper.

27  

BOOKWRITING

Youhavewrittennumerousbooks.Doyouenjoytheprocess?

Yes,Ienjoytheartofwriting,andbooksenablemetounderstandthesubjectonwhichI

hadbeenworking.AsItoldyouearlier,allofmyunderstandingisincremental;I’venever

hadaeurekamoment.Articlesareofnecessitynarrowinfocus.Ifyouwanttounderstand

acomplexphenomenon,youwanttobreakitupintosmallbitsandpublisharticleson

thosesmallbits.Puttingthemtogetherintheformofabookenablesyoutoputsthosebits

together,explorethewaytheyfeedoneother.WhenI’vefinishedwritingabook,Iknowa

lotmoreaboutthesubject.WritingsbookshasbeenawayIhavetriedtoeducatemyself.

Economistsarewritingmorebooksnowthantheydid40yearsago.That’sgoodnews.

TellmeaboutwritingAVeryShortIntroductiontoEconomics.

Thatwasacuriousexperience.Ittookmeeightyearstocompleteit,butnotforreasons

youmightthink.IsignedthecontractwithOxfordUniversityPressin1998or’99,butI

didn’tknowhowtowriteit.Iaskedseveralpeopleforadviceonhowtosqueeze

economicsinto160smallpages,buttheadviceIreceiveddidn’tmatchmytemperament.

SoIsatonthebookforseveralyears.ThedelaywassogreatthatIgotintotroublewith

thedepartmentatOxfordUniversityPressresponsiblefortheVSIseries.Theyhadhuge

expectationsfortheseries,ithadbecomeverysuccessful;theywereaimingformorethan

200titles,butsevenyearshadgonebyandtheywerestillmissingtheeconomicstitle.

Meanwhile,asIdidn’tknowhowIwasgoingtoframeeconomicsforthebook,Ididwhat

comesnaturallytome:gointodenialandcontinueworkingonotherthings.

28  

Thenoutoftheblue,sometimein2005,TimGowers,adistinguishedmathematicianat

Cambridge(heisaFieldsMedalist),askedmetowriteachapteronMathematicsand

EconomicReasoningforthePrincetonCompaniontoMathematicshewasediting.

Naturally,Iwasflattered;Ididn’tevendreamofsaying“no”.However,Iwasrequiredto

packmychapterinto15printedpagesofadmittedlyalargesizebook.Thatconcentrated

mymind.Ithought,“HowdoIgivetheflavortoamathematicianofwhatoursubjectin

aboutin15pages?”OnceIcrackedthatproblem,IknewitwouldbethemodelI’dusefor

Economics:VSI.Ifyoureadit,youwillseethatitreflectsalltheprejudicesandconvictions

Ihavelaidbarebeforeyouthelasttwohours.

REFEREEINGANDEDITING

Whatwouldyousayarethebenefitstorefereeing?

Youlearnsomethingnew,butI’vebeenabadrefereeallmylife.Ithinkit’sbecauseofmy

lackoftrainingineconomics.I’vebeenlearning‘onthehoof’,soIdon’thavethatmuchofa

commandovertheliteratureatanymomenttobeabletobeagoodreferee.Iamlikelyto

say,“Thisisnotaveryinterestingpaperbecauseit’sratherobvious.”Somebodyelsemight

say,“Butit’snotpublishedanywhereintheliterature.”AndI’mthenlikelytosay,“Well,

maybeit’sjustaswellit’snotinthepublishedliteraturebecauseit’ssoobvious.”Ifeel

nervousrefereeing.

29  

Youhaveneverbeenaneditorofajournal.Isthatforthesamereason?

IthinkmycolleaguesrealizedthatIwasn’taveryreliablerefereeaswell.I’mnot

disciplinedenoughtosayonMondaysandTuesdays,Iwillworkonthejournal,andon

Wednesdays,Iwillgetbacktoresearch.Myresearchlifecontaminateseverythingelse,

evenwhenIwaschairmanofmydepartmentatCambridge.IwasadiligentchairmanandI

hadavery,veryclearvisionofwhereIwantedtoseemyDepartmentgo.Iwasraisedinan

academichousehold,soIwasfullypreparedtobeChairinmydepartmentatCambridge.

ThatmeantIdidn’tagonizeoverdecisions.ConsequentlyIcontinuedtopublishduringmy

tenure.Iseetheworldthroughaparticularlens,andthat’sabadthingforaneditor;an

editorissupposedtoanOlympian(laughs).

TIMEMANAGEMENT

Howdoyoudivideupyourworkingdaybothintermsofquantityandtimingofdifferentkinds

ofwork?Andhowdoyoubalanceyourpersonallifeandprofessionallife?

Ihadsomevery,veryluckybreaksintermsofmygenes;Icanconcentratenomatterhow

noisyistheenvironment.AndIdon’tneedtobecomfortablewhenatwork.Forexample,

I’veneverhadastudyathome.I’veveryoftenworkedonaproblemordraftedapaper,

sittingatthediningtablewithsmallchildrenrunninground,evenoneofthemsittingon

mylap.Ifmywifewerehere,shewouldtellyouthere’sneverbeenatimeathomewhen

ourchildrenweretoldtobequietbecause“fatherisworking.”Theywerealwaysrunning

aroundorsittingonmylapwhenIwasworking.Myfamilylifeneverinterferedwithmy

researchandmyresearchcertainlyneverinterferedwithmyfamilylife.Eventoday,when

I’mwashingup,Imightbethinkingaboutaproblemwhilemywifeandourfamilyfriends

aresittingatthediningtable,chatting.

30  

Myofficedoorisalwaysopen,peoplearedriftinginandout,andIcanswitchonandoff.

I’mnotbraggingaboutit;it’safact.ButIamrathergratefulthatmygenesallowmetodo

that.We’reaveryclosefamily,andifanyofmychildrenwritetomeaboutanything,it’s

unthinkablethatIwouldnotrespondimmediately;itdoesn’tmatterwhatI’mdoing.My

wifeoftenasks,“Whatdoyoudoattheoffice?Doyoueverwork?”Sheasksbecauseshe

can’timaginehowIcouldbeatacademicworkandwouldneverthelessbeabletoset

everythingasidethemomentane‐mailarrivesfromoneofourchildren.Thatdoesn’t

meanIamefficientwithothermatters;I’mnot.Ifit’saninvitationtoaconference,thatwill

gointheholdbin,becausethee‐mailisimpersonal.

Doyoualsofinditeasytobalancemultipleresearchpapers?

Yes,becauseI’vegotthiswide‐ranging,interconnectedbodyofresearch.Everythingistied

upwitheverythingelse,orsoitseemstometobesointhesocialworld.

Doyouhaveasenseoftheoptimalnumberofpapersthatyoucouldbeworkingonatanyone

time?

No.I’veneverbeenabletoplanmyresearchanddon’tsupposeitwouldhavebeenagood

thingifIhad.Inthefirst20yearsofmyacademiclife,mypublicationsappearedin

bunches.Intheearly‐‘80s,Ipublishedquiteanumberofpapers,butthentherewasa

fallowperiod.OntheworkontechnologicalcompetitionthatIdidwithJoe(Stiglitz),we

produced7‐8papersoutofonemassivemanuscriptwehadcreatedforourselves.Butthat

manuscripttookacoupleofyears.Wethenproducedastringofpapersoutofthat.Iam

fromafortunategenerationintheUK.Igottenureprettyquicklyandeasily.Itdidn’t

bothermewhenIwaspublishingnothing,evenbeforereceivingtenure.

31  

REFLECTIONSANDTHEFUTUREOFECONOMICS

Whathavebeenthemostimportantfindingsandcontributionsinyourresearchfieldsduring

thecourseofyourcareer?

Theeconomicsofasymmetricinformationisonebigone.Therearetwostrandstothat

literature:mechanismdesignwhentheagentsareasymmetricallyinformed,andanalysis

ofmarkets.underasymmetricinformation.Butusuallywheneconomistsareaskedto

explainasymmetricinformation,theytakeexamplesfromthelatter.I’lldothesamehere.

It’snotthatpeopledidn’tknowthatinformationwasasymmetricallydistributed–of

course,theydid–butastherewasnocanonicalformulation,theprofessionwaswaitingfor

therightlanguageinwhichtotalk“information”.Justtogiveyouanideaofhowdifficult

thematterwas,inthe1960sanumberofveryfineeconomiststhoughtthewayintothe

economicsofinformationwouldrequirefirstofallameasureofinformation(e.g.the

Shannonmeasure).Butthatdidn’tseemtoleadanywhere:thesocialworldrequiresa

differenttreatmentfromtheworldofcommunication.KennethArrowwasthefirstto

realize,atleastinapublishedform,thatweshouldbypassthatobsessionandmodelan

economyinwhichdifferentpeopleknewdifferentthings.Tomymindhis1963onhealth

economicsandthemedicalprofessionistherealoriginoftheeconomicsofasymmetric

information.Ifyoureadityouwillfindithadeverything,butforalgebra,thatwasin

Akerlof’sfamous‘lemons’paper(inArrowread“quacks”forAkerlof’s“lemons”).Butit

wentbeyondthelemonsexamplebyofferinganexplanationforwhythemarketfor

medicalpractitionersnevercollapsed.Arrowsuggestedthatmedicalassociationsmonitor

qualityandthatyouneedinstitutionstocontrolquality.Atatimewhenmosteconomists

viewedsuchassociationsascreatingcartels,Arrow’sanalysismusthavebeenarevelation.

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Thepersonwhocarriedoutthebulkofthenextstageofworkonasymmetricinformation

inmarketsisJoeStiglitz.Stiglitzrelentlesslypursuedtheproblem,basicallybyre‐

constructingpricetheory.It’sinterestingthatnosinglepaperofhisonthesubjectnailed

thingsdown,it’sonlywhenyouputthemtogether(studyingmarketsforcredit,insurance,

labour,capital),thatyoubegintomakeconnectiontoanenormousnumberoffeaturesof

theworldwhichwerebeyondthereachofeconomicanalysisuntilthen.Ofcourse,Stiglitz

wasessentiallystudyingthesamemodel,butafterhavinggivenadifferentnametothe

marketbeingmodeled.ItwasveryStiglitzian(laughs).Butitwasnecessaryhediditthat

way.Hewastryingtoproduceacanonicalmodel;andhesucceeded.

Whatarethebiggestchallengesfacingyourresearchfields?

It’sbesttorespondbynotingit’snotjustmyresearchfield,butthebiggestchallengein

economics.

BringingNatureintoeconomicswillprovetobethebiggestchallenge,largelybecause

wheneverNatureismentioned,thehardboiledeconomistsays“externalities”and

suppressesayawn.Economicshasestablishedbadculturalpractices.Theprofession

doesn’trewardsomeonewhomaybedoingvitalworkestimatingthoseyawn‐generating

externalitiesin,say,asituationwhereforestsintheuplandsofawatershedarebeingcut

downanddamagingfarmersdownstream.Theprofessionrewardsempiricalworkin

sociallyacceptablefields,suchaseducation,health,labour,insurance,andvarious

industriesproducingprivategoods.Butwhenitcomestonaturalcapital,theygiveita

33  

thumbs‐down.It’sveryhardforempiricalenvironmentalandresourceeconomiststoget

jobsinleadingeconomicsdepartment.Thenaturalsciencesarefarmoresophisticatedin

theirappreciationofgoodappliedwork.Inthecaseofupstreamdeforestation,the

economisthastoobtaindatafromscratchbecausethegovernmentdoesn’tpublishdataon

thesubject;heorshehastocollaboratewithhydrologists,soilscientists,andagronomists

iftheyaretoestimatethe“externalities”.Iftherehasbeenarecurrentthemeinmyown

work,it’sbeentheattempttointroduceNature(naturalcapital)intoeconomicsina

seamlessway;inmanywaystore‐constructeconomics.Sustainabledevelopmentisabuzz

worldamongintellectuals.Butthatdoesn’tmakeitabogusword.Untileconomiststake

Natureseriously,wewillnotknowhowcurrentpolicywillaffectfuturepeople.Wehaveto

understandhumanity’srelationshipwithNatureatdifferentlevelsofeconomic

development.Inordertodothat,weneedtomakecontactwithneighboringdisciplines.

Theprofessionisn’tpreparedtodothatasyet.

Ifwewanttounderstand,say,povertyintheThirdWorld,weneedtoengagewith

anthropologistsandecologists,becausetheyhavegainedinsightsfromyearsofexperience.

Ihavefoundengagingwiththemvery,veryfruitful.Ifwewanttounderstandrurallife,we

needtoengagewithgeographerstoo,becausetheyhavedevelopedtoolsaboutthe

landscape.It’stakenmeyearstoappreciatehowdeeplyinterconnectedoursocialsystems

arewiththenaturalsystem,andhowwehavealsoisolatedourselvesfromNatureviathe

market.Weneedtobeconstantlyawareoftheunintendedconsequencesofthatisolation.

We’vegottoreallyengagewithawholegroupofdifferent,butrelateddisciplines.We’re

notdoingenoughofthatatthemoment,andwedon’thavethewillingness;ourentire

trainingprocessandsubsequentcareergoagainstit.Ican’thelpthinkingthatwe

economistsaremissingthemostsignificantproblemsofourtime,orforthatmatterof

anybody’stime,byavoidingthem.

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Howdidyoufeelaboutbeingawardedaknighthoodfor“servicestoeconomics”?Whatwould

yousayhasbeenyourbiggestcontributiontoeconomics?

IwastotallysurprisedonreceivingtheletterfromthePrimeMinister’sOffice,inMay2002.

IwassurprisedbecauseIhadneverconsultedforgovernments,infactIdidn’tknowany

governmentofficials.TherecommendationmusthavecomefromtheUK’sEconomicand

SocialResearchCouncil.WhenIshowedhertheletter,mywifetooksometimetodigest

thequestionIwasasked,namelywhetherIwouldacceptaknighthood.Thequestion

didn’tarise.Iwasverypleasedwiththatrecognition,itseemedtometobeanaffirmation

ofmyresearch,butithashadnoeffectonmylife.

AnInquiryintoWell‐beingandDestitution(1993)isunquestionablytheworkwithwhichI

ammostsatisfied.WorkingtowarditmademeunderstandthesocialworldinawayI

couldn’thavebyreadinganythingelse.Iwroteitovera4yearperiod,starttofinish,andit

knockedmeout.UnconsciouslyIwantedtochangethewayeconomicsisunderstood,but

ofcourseIwasn’tabouttowriteamethodologicalwork,Ifocusedonwell‐beingand

destitutionasmyobjectofstudywithwhichtore‐writeeconomics.Iwaswritingthebook

asaletter(averylongletter!)tomyfather,whoIknewwasgoingtodiesoon.Thebook

wasn’tfinishedwhenhedied,soIwroteamemoirforhimasanintroductiontothebook.

Economics:AVeryShortIntroduction(2007)resemblesthatearlierwork,butit’sawhole

lotbriefer.

Doyouhaveanyprofessionalregrets?

Idon’tthinkso,largelybecauseI’venevertakenmyprofessionallifethatseriously,qua

professionallife.Thatexplainsagooddealofmyanswerstoyourpreviousquestions.

Researchformehasneverreallybeenresearch;it’sbeenanengagementwithlife.Andmy

35  

workhasneverbeencompartmentalizedfromtherestofmylife.Ofcourse,ifyouaskmy

wife,shewillsay,“Therewereperiodswhenhewasimpossibletolivewith;whenIwould

talktohiminthosemoments,itwasclearhewasn’tlistening.”Butthat’sinevitable;any

personwho’sengagedinresearch,nomatterhowcompartmentalizedheorsheis,will

havemomentswhenthey’reslightlydisconnected.

I’veneverhadabigagendaandI’veneverwantedtochangetheworld.It’sbeenself‐

indulgencealltheway;I’vewantedtounderstandthesocialworld,andthewayeconomists

handleditwasn’tgoodenoughforme,whichiswhyIwasledtogeographers,

anthropologists,nutritionists,ecologists,anddevelopmentbiologists.AndI’vehad

enormoushelpfromsomeofthegreatestmindsinthosedisciplines,scientistslikePaul

Ehrlich,JackGoody,andJohnWaterlow.WheneverIhavewritten,seekingguidance,

sometimestoscholarswhomIhadnevermet,theyhaverespondedhandsomely.Andof

course,Ihavehadenormoushelpfrommyprofessionalcolleagues.Myco‐authorsin

particularhavetaughtmeagreatdeal.

Ialsodon’tthinkI’vemadeawrongmoveintermsofemployment.In1977,whenIwasat

theLSE,IturneddownaveryfineofferfromPrinceton,mainlybecauseIwashopingto

becomeaProfessorattheLSE,wheremyfatherhaddonehisPh.Dandmyfather‐in‐law

hadbeenaProfessor.Ishouldsayitwasn’tcompetitionwithmyelders,itwasamatterof

seeingthroughanintergenerationalagreement,ifyouseewhatImean;carryingthe

proverbialtorch.ForacoupleofyearsIregrettednotmovingtoPrinceton.Ialsowanted

toliveinacampusenvironment,andLondondoesn’tprovidethat.Ontheotherhand,

Londonwasexciting,andmywifeandIenjoyedanactivesociallife.But,whenin1984

Cambridgeapproachedmewiththeofferofachair,bothmywifeandIknewwewere

goingtoacceptit.ShehadgrownupinCambridgeandIhadbeenastudent.Thatwasan

easydecision.

36  

Doyouhaveanyprofessionalambitions?

No.ItgoeswithoutsayingIdidwanttobecomeaprofessor.OnceIbecameone,attheLSE

in1978,thatambitionwasfulfilled.Fromthenon,whatwasimportantforme,

professionallythatis,isthatIcontinuetoexplorethesocialworld.

OUPispublishingmycollectedpapersintheautumn.Abouttenyearsago,Iturneddown

theoffer,sayingIdidn’tseethepurpose.Ithoughtthatthosewhodiditdiditeitherasa

vanityprojectorbecausetheyfeltthattheircreativeperiodhadcometoanend.(Iwas

deadwrong,ofcourse.)Butthentwoyearsago,Ihadtoundergomajorsurgeryforcancer.

Iwasgiventwoweeks’noticeandwastoldtherewasabouta4percentriskoffatalityat

theoperatingtable,nottomentionthattherecouldbefurtherproblems.WhenIlearned

that,Ithought,“Well,ifI’mdead,thenit’sdead(thevolume).”Butanother(worseforme,

personally)possibilitywasthatIwouldsurvivebuttheexperiencewoulddampenmy

curiosityaboutlifeandthesocialworldroundme.Ifthatweretohappen,Ithoughtediting

mycollectedpaperswouldbenobadthing.SoIinformedOUPthatIwaswilling.They

sentmeacontractimmediately.However,withintwoweeksoftheoperation,eventhough

Icouldhardlydoanythingphysical,IfoundmyselfreadingatextbookonEarthScience.

Whilelyinginthehospital,adayfollowingmyoperation,IhadrealizedIknewlittleformal

aboutthemathematicsunderlyingplatetectonics.RecognitionthatIhadrevertedtobeing

astudentcheeredmeupnoend.However,IbegantoregretthatIsignedthatcontract!

Butadealisadeal,andIhavedonepartofmyjobproducingthetwovolumes.AsIsaid,I

wasquitewrongearlier.IenjoyedcollectingthearticlesandwritingtheIntroductions.

Howwouldyoudescribethestateofeconomicstoday?Areyouoptimisticaboutitsfuture?

37  

Atoneleveleconomicsisinaverygoodstatetoday.Thelast30‐40yearshasseen

extremelyfruitfulprogressinboththeoreticalandappliedwork.Beforethen,theapplied‐

theorydividewasenormous.Theoristsknewlittleaboutwhatappliedpeopledid,and

appliedeconomistscouldn’tunderstandthepointintheory.Today,mosttheoristsknow

somethingabouttheappliedworktowhichtheirtheoryrelates,andappliedeconomicshas

changedbeyondbeliefbecauseofthedevelopmentofadvancedeconometrictechniques.

Butthereisahugedownsidetothestateofaffairs.Goodpeopleusuallydogoodresearch,

buttheydon’tnecessarilyworkonthemostimportantproblems.Andeconomistscan

misreadthesocialandnaturalworldsobadlythatevengoodpeopleendupdoingflippant

research.Theprofessionevenrewardssuchwork.Ihavealreadyalludedtothefactthat

ourprofessionisdismissiveofreallyhard,empiricalworkonenvironmentalexternalities.

Letmeelaborateonit.Taketheenormousliteraturethathasbeenbuiltupoverthepast

twodecadesandmoreonendogenousgrowth.Ifindmostofitwhollyunreal.Hereisthe

presentworld,headingforapopulationofmorethan9billionbythemiddleofthecentury,

everyonewantingtoenjoythelifestyleof,ifnotDubai’sSheiks,butcertainlytheaverage

incomeofaresidentinahighmiddle‐incomecountry.Buttheenvironmental

requirementsofsuchastateofaffairswouldrequire3to4Earths.Weeconomistsdon’t

evenbegintoappreciatethatfact.Wesimplypostulatetechnologicalprogressandthink

thatNature’sconstraintscanalwaysbeovercomethrougheducationandresearch.How

havewecometosuchapass?Wehaveafterallonlyabout250yearsofexperienceofwhat

wenowcallthemodernworld,whichseemsamomentina11,000yearsofhuman

“history”.Economistsasaprofessiondon’twanttothinkaboutpopulationanditdoesn’t

wanttotakeNatureseriously.Icanonlyconcludethatwehavedetachedourselvesfrom

theworld.Noneofthatwouldmatterifweeconomistsweren’tenormouslyinfluential.

Butweare.Thelanguageweuseseepsintothejournalisticandpoliticalworld.Economic

growth,wealth,markets,andtechnologicalprogressareexpressionswehavefashioned.

Wehelpotherstogointodenialaboutpossibleadversefuturesofhumansocieties,because

38  

wearesmartenoughandarticulateenoughtosayknowledgeandingenuitywillsolveall

problems.Periodicallywewritetosaythat“Malthuswasafalseprophet”(aquotefroma

recentissueoftheEconomist).Andit’stheeconomicsprofessionthatidentified

“externalities”.PutallthetermsIhavejustmentionedtogetherandyougetacontradiction

intheeconomist’sfavouredmodelofthelongrun.That’snotjustironic,it’stragic.