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Oral history interview with Carson Zullinger, March 28, 2013

Zullinger, Carson Photographer

Size: Transcript: 31 pages.

Format of recording: Originally recorded as digital wav file. Duration is 92 min.

Collection Summary: An interview of Carson Zullinger conducted March 28, 2013 by Margaret Winslow for the Helen Farr Sloan Library and Archives of the Delaware Art Museum.

This interview was conducted for Dream Streets: Art in Wilmington 1970–1990, an exhibition held at the Delaware Art Museum June 27–September 27, 2015 on the contemporary art scene in Wilmington in the 1970s and 1980s.

Funding for the transcription of this interview was provided by a grant from the Delaware Humanities Forum.

The transcript of this interview is in the public domain and may be used without permission. Quotes and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Carson Zullinger, March 28, 2013, Helen Farr Sloan Library and Archives, Delaware Art Museum.

MARGARET: Quickly, this is Margaret Winslow, Associate Curator for Contemporary Art interviewing Carson Zullinger on March 28th 2013 at his studio at the Delaware Center for Contemporary Arts.

CARSON: Okay go back. So she [Alice Hupfel] started the Sales and Rental Gallery about the time that we—the ArtReach and CETA program started, around ’77, somewhere in that period. She may predate us by a year but she was heavily involved in that. And I don’t remember her going to Fifth Street Gallery things of that sort. But the Delaware Theatre Company as it was forming in ’79. And DCCA and the Theatre Company both incorporated in the same year and so she got heavily involved with the Theatre Company, was on their board for a while until she was forced off by the Museum.

MARGARET: As a conflict of interest?

CARSON: Yes the Delaware Art Museum was very concerned. Well they were concerned about both the Theatre Company and DCCA because they were concerned about funding and certainly there were these new organizations coming on board. Nothing was—and actually my—part of my personal experience has to deal with that too because I was pushed out of the Museum because I was President of the board of the DCCA.

MARGARET: Interesting because there wasn’t a lot of competition before the foundation of the Delaware Theatre Company, the Delaware Humanities Forum was founded. I mean not that—

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CARSON: About the same time. It was a different world before 1977. The du Ponts were heavily involved in the Delaware Art Museum—were heavily involved in the Delaware Art Museum [inaudible] other members of the family. And it was the Grand Opera House interestingly. That was a big pivotal shift because the renovations took place in ’76. So a lot of things begin to change. Stuart Young and his wife [Toni] were spearheading the grant but before that they were pretty big contributors to The Delaware Art Museum they [inaudible]. So there is a lot of flux that is taking place during that period.

MARGARET: I need to talk to Stuart Young as well. Okay. Actually that is pretty good. I don’t think [inaudible].

CARSON: Yeah that was an interesting change because the Grand Opera House became this really huge project which sucked up a lot of money and cost a lot of money to renovate that place because it was in horrific condition. But then what do you do? So that is also all taking place at the same time. It is an amazing period of growth in the arts in Delaware. The Delaware Symphony, interestingly what I can't remember is where the Delaware Symphony played before the Opera? I assume they were in the Playhouse but I don’t know that. But they became one of the first things that moved into the Grand.

MARGARET: Okay. Interesting. Okay so let’s see. So let’s go back even farther because I want to start by discussing your early career. So you're from Wilmington originally.

CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: And tell me what happened after you went to the University of Miami.

CARSON: I came back here and worked in factories. Actually when I came back here I was a [inaudible] for two years [inaudible].

MARGARET: Oh interesting.

CARSON: Worked there. Was living at 14th and King’s St. in the little apartment. I was working in a factory making coatings on jet engine parts for two years. And it was during that period when I was actually making money I bought my first real camera.

MARGARET: Because you had not studied photography at the University of Miami?

CARSON: No I went there for Biology and did not graduate. It was—so I came back. The people I was hanging out with were [inaudible] who I met [inaudible]. And, my girlfriend at the time, Suzie Smith, was a painter and she was going to the Academy. And so I would go up and hang out with her while she was taking classes at the Academy. And this is in ’71, ’72. So I get a camera and I start shooting constantly and then I start shooting people’s art work and that’s how I got into doing [inaudible] work was shooting artist’s art work.

MARGARET: Really, so it was really that early?

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CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: Oh interesting. And there was really a need for that of course because they needed their slides.

CARSON: They needed their slides to submit for competitions and I got—whatever to apply at the college. At that point we’re all pretty young, people are in graduate school and that sort, so that’s how I started shooting. I have been shooting [inaudible] work since ’73, ’74.

MARGARET: Wow, that’s incredible. Now were there other photographers in the area that were offering that service or was that really a need?

CARSON: Not that I know of. When I first started doing any commercial work at all the commercial—[inaudible] I think existed at that point. [Inaudible] who had a studio—I forget where his studio was but he made sculptures. [Inaudible] Studios and—there weren’t a lot of commercial studios at that point. That actually started to build up later into—once again the late ‘70s going into the ‘80s. The’80s was probably the high point for commercial. You had [inaudible] a whole slew of studios that opened up because Dupont was willing to use locals to shoot all their product work.

MARGARET: I didn’t even think about that, those companies would need their product shot as well.

CARSON: Yeah and I did that as well. The 1980s—I started in the ‘80s but it was in the early to mid-1990s doing a lot of work like that.

MARGARET: So when you started shooting fine art photography of course for friends, were you shooting for the Museum before you were involved with them through [inaudible]?

CARSON: No.

MARGARET: Okay. So tell me—so that is happening in the early 1970s and then you traveled.

CARSON: I traveled. I spent a year traveling, Florida, [inaudible], Denver, the entire United States. I came back and I worked at the Post Office for a year. Made some more money. Set up a lab and started doing commercial printing for other photographers who were getting started in their own businesses [inaudible] black and white print.

MARGARET: Okay so when you came back—you finished traveling around 1975?

CARSON: No I think it was ’74. I think it was back in [inaudible] ’74.

MARGARET: But that’s interesting in that that’s right around the time when Fifth Street Gallery would have been established. So tell me, what were your recollections of the contemporary art scene in downtown Wilmington when you returned from traveling?

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CARSON: There was nothing. There was absolutely nothing. If you wanted to see contemporary art you [inaudible]. At that point we weren’t even focusing on that, we were just—we were just doing our own art and that was it. We just did our own stuff. Ken [Mabrey] at that point, I guess the mid-70s he’s going to Indiana and then he ends up at Yale so he’s out of town for a few years. Basically I am just doing [inaudible] stuff. I got all the Ansel Adams books and I taught myself. And then I was shooting large format for—as soon as I had a 31 mm camera within a year so [inaudible]. And so that was—the Ansel Adams books were basically a game changer. That was my college, was really learning the technical stuff but also the aesthetics.

Then I really started paying attention to [inaudible] and I started reading about it, before that I studied [inaudible] painting because all my friends were painters they had art history books that was Euro-art, Euro-centric.

MARGARET: Yeah so what were your themes or subjects at that moment?

CARSON: I, actually I started doing [inaudible] work by 1975 but I was doing landscaping especially the travels around the country I basically concentrated on landscape. But I started doing figurative and started—even in the early years I was always thinking like a painter. I always thought about trying to develop ideas that [inaudible] instead of capturing [inaudible].

MARGARET: Oh, interesting.

CARSON: And that was because of who I hung out with because they were always visualizing what they were going to put on the canvas. Where photography in the 1970s was really not very much about that at all. It was still so stuck in [inaudible] or whatever—either it was Bresson or that concept or photojournalism or just [inaudible] street photography.

MARGARET: Like Stephen Shore.

CARSON: Shore, yeah.

MARGARET: Yeah those kinds of photographers.

CARSON: Owen. So that’s the stuff I am looking at and I guess in ’77 I start working [inaudible] and then I am going to New York all the time looking at art. I keep sort of [inaudible] where I am realizing what I am doing is not like what everyone else is doing. I have to continue doing what I do because that’s not what I am interested in.

MARGARET: Right. And is that something that has continued? You said it better than I will, less about capturing more about—

CARSON: More about visualizing and creating.

MARGARET: More about visualizing and creating. And so is that something that has continued throughout your work still?

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CARSON: [Inaudible].

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: You know it’s funny too, the only part of my work that I do which is not that is the [inaudible] which is about [inaudible] which is kind of fun, that after all these years it’s either on or it’s off. So it’s good but it’s sort of this whole other body of work that I have done.

MARGARET: And remind me when did you first start shooting dance?

CARSON: Intensively in ’99.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: You know it is funny when you go to the [inaudible] shows. Photography still has this kind of weirdness of being self [inaudible] and still sort of sticking with these certain themes that they’ve been doing since the 1950s and ‘60s. I mean in really interesting photography what happened is painters picked up cameras and started doing this stuff, [inaudible] and whoever because they thought like a painter. They thought about creating stuff instead of [inaudible]. So that’s the type of work that, not only inspired me, as the years went on [inaudible].

MARGARET: That’s so interesting. Okay so let’s talk about your time at the Delaware Art Museum and the ArtReach Program. And I have lots of fun materials for you to reference.

CARSON: Okay. Oh my God, look what you have. Oh my God with the photographs. John Gatti. That’s cool. Eric Robinson. I haven’t seen Eric in years but apparently he was a city councilman here in Wilmington. I think he just went [inaudible] the council.

MARGARET: Really?

CARSON: Yeah.

MARGARET: I didn’t know that. We haven’t connected with him yet. Caitlin, the intern, did a fairly extensive interview with John Gatti.

CARSON: Okay Joe Mauro is still in town as far as I know, doing a—he has been doing graphic design work for decades. Dave Tonnesen is a 3-dimensional artist in Boston and he does really big public sculpture. But stuff. Pretty cool. David Pugh I occasionally run into his brother who is also working [inaudible]. Claire Present, basically she got married, had two kids, lives in Saint Davis. We exchange cards. I haven’t seen her since after she got married but we keep a tenuous connection. Mike Pomatto I don’t know what happened to him. Candice Lloyd I have no idea.

MARGARET: Okay. So you were a part of the first ArtReach program?

CARSON: Yes.

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MARGARET: Now were you part of the second as well?

CARSON: Well, I worked for ArtReach for two years.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: Then the second part of ArtReach we—basically our tour is done but I continued it, but at that point curatorial side. Well we’ve got grant money so you can do this and this and this and this. So then I just worked exclusively for the curator.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: The second group in [inaudible] I think he may have been the head of the group and that’s, they go on for two more years. So it’s ‘80 and ‘81. And they do, I mean they continue doing a lot of the education stuff. It was really a sort of this crazy thing that happened. And I think I’d mentioned that before, was just how the Museum, it’s sort of poked along and done its thing and been the community arts center, with a really strong educational background, really strong studio with lots and lots of classrooms. I would say three times the classroom, two-story building of classrooms that was built on the back of the existing museum. So it’s a beehive of educational activity. And this, I can’t remember when that endowment was put in. Marion Johnson was director of the education program and she got us better than anyone else in the program in a way because she was an educator, she had connections in New York I think and she liked the fact that we had all this energy. Steve Bruni of course at the time when we first started this building like curatorial music, I don’t even know if he got the position, he was just there.

MARGARET: Right. Doing a bit of everything, yeah.

CARSON: Everything. He was like the head. So suddenly they basically shoved us into this little office in the education wing, and that’s our place in the hallway outside of that office is where we sort of hang out all the time, just on the couches. And we would have our meetings on the couches in the hallway in the fire tower to go to that in—it was crazy. We basically, we had, for our purposes there, well there were two directors. There was, oh God, I forget that you guys name who actually wrote the grants and get the money for the Museum. Oh my God, yeah.

MARGARET: I know I have to ask you about [inaudible].

CARSON: There is Dave Tonnesen. This is the first time I met Greg [inaudible] as well.

MARGARET: Oh really? On the bike? So—

CARSON: Yard art, that was so cool. We basically, they gave us the bus and we would put different exhibits every month on the bus.

MARGARET: So Tom Sherman?

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CARSON: Tom Sherman and he was the, he was like the overall head of the program. But then John Gatti came in.

MARGARET: Let’s see?

CARSON: John Gatti probably would have mentioned this. And John still in contact with them. I cannot, but he was—basically when they did the, I can remember when they did the interviews.

MARGARET: Not David Pugh?

CARSON: No. David was, he was too but there was this other guy and I can’t remember his name.

MARGARET: So they were the [inaudible].

CARSON: Bob Troxell.

MARGARET: Bob Troxell, okay. So Bob Troxell and Tom Sherman were the two that were kind of the directors for the program?

CARSON: And then, I can’t remember how Dave, Dave’s also sort of in the mix at the top of this group and I can’t, I’m trying to, I can’t remember. Tom is sort of like that guy. He didn’t have that much connection. He basically smoke cigarettes all day.

MARGARET: Was he in the education department?

CARSON: Yeah.

MARGARET: Okay, all right.

CARSON: I think they threw the woman that was head of the education, the travel program, Amanda [inaudible] she lost her office.

MARGARET: And you all have it?

CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: So did you all have to apply for the ArtReach program?

CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: The application process was insane. Each one of us gets the interview from hell.

MARGARET: Really?

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CARSON: Okay so this is how they set up the room, and I set it up in one of the galleries at the Museum, one of the smaller galleries in the older part of the building. We walk in, they have a U-shaped table and there are people all the way around the U-shaped table and they put you in a chair in the middle of the U.

MARGARET: A lovely. Yeah incredibly intimidating.

CARSON: It was outrageous. It was crazy. And they did it on purpose. Because, especially Bob and Tom, they wanted to make sure the people they hired were capable of thinking outside the box and being, yeah thinking outside the box and being able to deal with confrontation and turmoil.

MARGARET: Interesting. So they’re really thinking about how you as artists are going to go into the community.

CARSON: That’s it.

MARGARET: Wow.

CARSON: Because they don’t even know what—they don’t even know what the programs going to be at this point.

MARGARET: Right, right.

CARSON: So they are trying to pick people who are going to be not the usual, not educators. They were not looking for typical educator. There were looking for people who can communicate by people, who stand on their own two feet.

MARGARET: Wow.

CARSON: So I can remember, you know I brought in all those portfolios with massive—at the time I was making big sized prints. I was doing it in my dark room. And they just ripped, they ripped it apart, about the work I was doing, what was I trying to say with my work.

MARGARET: Really? This is like an intense critique.

CARSON: Oh yeah. And I walked in and they’re saying, “There is no way in hell I’m going to give you this job.” But there were people from curatorial and I think, yeah I know curatorial people so I don’t know if it was Roland or Betsy.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: One of those had to be there because there were so many, because they only had three people who were already on board.

MARGARET: Right. And there weren’t, I mean the staff was much smaller at that point.

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CARSON: There was no one there.

MARGARET: Yeah.

CARSON: I don’t know, Steve was, I can’t remember who but it was like real intense.

MARGARET: Wow that’s so interesting. And remind me, so were most of the artists in the first program from Wilmington or know where they from—Philadelphia?

CARSON: Artists from Pennsylvania, Delaware. I think he was from Pennsylvania. I don’t know where Mike was. Joe was from Wilmington.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: Faith and Candice, I’m not sure where they were from originally. They may have been, I don’t think she was. He might have been from Delaware.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But it was pretty much local there.

MARGARET: Local okay.

CARSON: Yeah it was local.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But there was definitely—they were pushing as many buttons as they could to see how we would react.

MARGARET: Interesting.

CARSON: And it was an eye-opener for me. And then suddenly I get hired and then the real work begins to try and figure out, well what are we going to do? Well, part of the reason that I got hired by [inaudible] was because I didn’t do curatorial. This has always been my theory. Curatorial push to get out, and because of my skills, my photo skills, because I brought in, I brought in a lot of practical stuff as well as the fact that it was big printing—it was a large format and things like that—probably that interested them.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: So my position ended up getting split 50% to the Museum, 50% to the ArtReach program.

MARGARET: Really? And that first program?

CARSON: Yep from day one.

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MARGARET: Oh. And so for curatorial, for the Museum you really were shooting the collection?

CARSON: I started shooting the collection as soon as I walked in the door.

MARGARET: What was the status of the permanent collection photography before you started the Museum? Did they have, I mean they must, of course they must have had literature from their collection?

CARSON: They did. I think they hired out. I don’t know who did what.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: Within probably six months of being there Bill Pugh who also was hired through ArtReach by 100%, he ended up being 100% [inaudible].

MARGARET: Oh interesting.

CARSON: Well that was—they did it, it was an interesting sort of thing. Bonnie Levinson basically is working for the education department but the funding is through [inaudible].

MARGARET: Okay. Now was Bill Pugh for education or was he with curatorial?

CARSON: Curatorial.

MARGARET: Do you know in what capacity? Wasn’t like air handling?

CARSON: No. It was just photography.

MARGARET: Just photography?

CARSON: Yeah and whatever else. We did everything, honestly.

MARGARET: Right okay.

CARSON: I mean within six months I was doing the lighting.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: I took over the lighting because I couldn’t stand—it was driving us crazy having Rowland going up—5 o’clock he’d be going, whatever that thing is.

MARGARET: Like genie lamps.

CARSON: Yeah but it’s one where you have to crank the plate.

MARGARET: Where you crank it yeah.

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CARSON: And he’d be out there and the opening was going to be at 5:30 and he’d be doing the last lighting. And so I guess, I think Steve sort of said, you know this is like so-and-so. Let me help. So I took over and started doing lighting.

MARGARET: Wow. Who was the, I mean was this broken, it’s really this infusion of energy and professionalism?

CARSON: Curatorial, suddenly, in the whole Museum, has all of this talent to do stuff they never could do before.

MARGARET: Yeah.

CARSON: I know I mentioned it to you before, it changed the music forever.

MARGARET: Yeah.

CARSON: We wouldn’t have what we have today without what happened in those years.

MARGARET: I need to go back and see what other museums received CETA funding at that time as well because the Museum, I mean it seems like to really engage with this program is pretty forward thinking.

CARSON: Yeah it is.

MARGARET: At that time.

CARSON: What I don’t know and maybe Pete Wyrick was able to tell you is how they decided to allow it to happen. That’s the question that—

MARGARET: How’d that decision come about?

CARSON: How the decision—that had to be through the boards. Somehow there had to be someone saying, “Yes it’s a good thing to do.” I don’t know who made that decision.

MARGARET: Right. Yeah that decision to support the program that has really been, of course there are all of the advantages to the Museum at the curatorial but there was really focus on community engagement.

CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: So tell me about the programming.

CARSON: Well I think the only thing that was happening at the time we started ArtReach, this desegregation in the schools. I mean like I said everything is happening all at the same time.

MARGARET: Right.

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CARSON: It’s crazy. The schools are flipping out because they don’t even know what to expect. We’re there for the first year, we are in the schools, the desegregation hasn’t happened, the next year desegregation has happened.

MARGARET: So you saw that transition?

CARSON: We saw the transition. We basically, I guess it was Tom and the crew went to the schools and I think there was a lot of discussion about what —what can we do to be part of that process. So it was clear that we were part of bringing creativity into helping this transition. It’s not sic, it’s never really, I don’t think it’s ever mentioned in word, and any documents that—that’s really what we’re up to but that’s how we sold it.

MARGARET: Right.

CARSON: And the program evolved. I mean it started out with little things where we go in for a week to do things. But as it evolved we would actually schedule to be gone for an entire month from school. And all the teachers would go in and revolve through and teach a variety of different points. I started going to poet week. We managed to plug into Polaroid. They give us all our film for free, gave us the cameras for free. And so then I was going in and working with things, classes in storytelling through photography. And I still have all my—you know I actually made all these prints dealing with storytelling which I have put in my Facebook.

MARGARET: Oh really?

CARSON: Yeah I bring them out and show them around and have interactions with the kids. So we basically are checking out over the school period for a month and we’re working with English—not just the art, it’s multidisciplinarian, working with different teachers. We work elementary schools which we considered our best. I think we got our best stuff out of elementary schools.

MARGARET: Were you focused on public schools only or did you do any work in private schools?

CARSON: All public.

MARGARET: All public. That would make sense, given funding, okay.

CARSON: All public. We worked at Sterck School for the Hearing Impaired, which was a really high point for everyone. That was really one of the highlights for all of us because the kids were so cool. I mean they were like open and ready to learn. We really enjoyed it a lot. We then, at the end of the month, we would actually take over the gym and show all the stuff that the kids made.

MARGARET: So you usually displayed the work at the school?

CARSON: Yes.

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MARGARET: Were there ever any displays of the students work at the Museum that you recall?

CARSON: No.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: John Gatti, his thing was to have junk life.

MARGARET: Right.

CARSON: And then we would just make these big honking constructions. I mean, we go to Soho and say the kids are better than us. Really creative stuff.

MARGARET: Wow, that’s just incredible.

CARSON: You know photography Sometimes we would make little booklet. Okay I’m trying to remember, Joyce Brabner and [inaudible] worked with her. It was around the same time too that she was still into women’s prison and I go into Polaroid photography in the women’s prison.

MARGARET: Wait, Joyce or—

CARSON: Joyce Brabner.

MARGARET: That wasn’t Sue [Flash] Rosenberg?

CARSON: No.

MARGARET: No. Joyce Brabner, I didn’t realize that, but you worked with Sue Rosenberg also?

CARSON: Sue Rosenberg was brought in under CETA funding and she did the graphic arts for the general arts.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: So she did design work for ArtReach but she also did design work for all the departments.

MARGARET: Okay, okay. So you were—

CARSON: Have you talked to her?

MARGARET: Not yet. We haven’t done a recorded interview with her yet.

CARSON: Well I’m friends with her on Facebook, so if you need me just let me know.

MARGARET: Okay.

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CARSON: I mean she wasn’t here that long. She sort of was here and then she pretty much was out.

MARGARET: And then she left.

CARSON: [inaudible].

MARGARET: Yeah because, and I guess Rick was—

CARSON: Like she hung out with Chris [inaudible]. She may have some memories.

MARGARET: Have some memories of that as well. And I know—we got together with Rick and George Stewart because George Stewart did the film for the explosion and then he was saying, Rick was saying that Sue did headshot photography of that scene as well because she had been in video. So this was—

CARSON: I actually see Rosenberg, I think may have shot these big galleries. John Gatti did as well.

MARGARET: Did, okay. So sorry—sorry interrupted you. Since I saw so much happening like all in the late 1940s of course. So you are working, tell me about the project you are working on with Joyce Brabner.

CARSON: What I don’t remember is the timeline.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: Is around, I’m still at the Museum I think by the question is where.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: It may have been when I’m working with Lance.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But it’s around 1980. We’re working, we’ve got a group, she’s got a group of artists and were going to the women’s prison and I’m doing—doing a variety of different forms of art. Gary Pagato is involved with that. Gary might be an interesting one to talk to. We just ran into him. He is sort of pretty far up in—well he used to work for—he’s worked for MTV for the last 14 years, like during special events.

MARGARET: Oh okay.

CARSON: And now he works with Viacom. He was actually doing all the IT parties for one of the fairs in Miami.

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MARGARET: Oh interesting.

CARSON: It was so funny. Whereabouts to get on the bus and I hear, “Carson.” I turn and it’s scary, he comes right out of the blue. And I hadn’t seen him in, we hadn’t seen each other in years but you know occasional email back and forth so—

MARGARET: Right. So you all are going into not only the schools but you’re going into other community—

CARSON: But that’s not our—it’s totally separate.

MARGARET: It’s separate.

CARSON: Yeah.

MARGARET: Did you have any other projects in which she went to a specific humanity, institution?

CARSON: Well you know I’m trying to remember whether we [inaudible]. I’m trying to remember, I don’t think so. I’m a little vague but I don’t think so. I remember the schools. It’s possible that we did some other stuff.

MARGARET: Let’s see, the Ferris School Juvenile Detention Center, high schools. Oh we have to get back to DART. Tell me about your involvement with Ab Jones, with [inaudible].

CARSON: Well the studio art program was put together by Stubbs Wilson and I forgotten already but basically it was a county run facility and Ab Jones was the school which basically was in a school anymore so they had all the space in the county to get over and they were running a senior center in a section know that and they basically gave us away and, in classrooms. And this takes place, that was hilarious.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: Yeah because I got involved teaching photography.

MARGARET: So you taught photography?

CARSON: Yeah. We actually set up a darkroom there, even larger so teaching film developing. I’m also teaching photography right from the very beginning. We cranked up and started doing classes as part of the education.

MARGARET: Were all of the ArtReach artists doing that??

CARSON: No. Who taught, I can’t remember whether Bill Pugh and David Pugh may have taught as well.

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MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But I taught every semester. Out. And continued I think until [inaudible].

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But I believe I was actually teaching darkroom and worked in classrooms in the education department as well.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: The dark room had four enlargers. The sinks that I actually had in my dark room at home are the same sinks there were at the double Art Museum.

MARGARET: Oh really?

CARSON: When Steve Bruni called me up and said, “Well they are just about to do the demolition. Do you want sinks?” I said, “You bet you.” Because I just moved out of my studio on Market Street where I had a sink in my dark room. So I [inaudible]. Yeah in the basement of the Museum we built, we built a light tight room where we could shoot art. Well we built that wall so [inaudible].

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: [Inaudible].

MARGARET: Right. I wish I could’ve seen the old building.

CARSON: It was really, it was pretty funky and cold. I know there’s got to be photography and collections somewhere.

MARGARET: Yeah there are some pretty decent images but just to be able to, to have the opportunity to go through the spaces.

CARSON: I mean the galleries, the galleries were so interesting to me, I mean [inaudible] even the four sections.

MARGARET: Right.

CARSON: But there was a—what they did is the original building, well in the back right corner they built a gallery that extended out and connected to the education wing which paralleled that gallery— that was an auditorium. And so we actually, on one of the gallery we had a spot lit up in there where we had audiovisuals where we could show movies and people could come and speak. And that’s the other thing that happens is suddenly the programming really explodes. And this shows how the Museum changed. They’re starting to show all kinds of photography there. [Inaudible] comes in speaks. You’ve got all these people doing interesting stuff.

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MARGARET: There was just that fusion of energy.

CARSON: Absolutely. It was just ridiculous really.

MARGARET: Yeah.

CARSON: I know I’m bouncing.

MARGARET: Oh no, no. This is all wonderful. I do want to get back to, oh I want to talk about specific ArtReach exhibitions.

CARSON: Okay.

MARGARET: So the project, so tell me about DART art.

CARSON: Either Tom or Dave had contacted, they wanted to do some sort of public art project and I guess taking the bus, they looked at it and said, “Wouldn’t it be cool if we could put out the yard where the advertisements are.” And for whatever reason DART agreed. So we would come up with themes for the shows. We would all go out into photography. Everybody, basically everyone that was part of the ArtReach group, all the time, that just seemed to be the gambit.

MARGARET: Okay. That’s interesting to know, okay.

CARSON: Yeah they all did photography. Dave Tonnesen, me, everyone did photography. So we all did stuff and we, and I ended up running the show to the right size so we could just pop them into the spots.

MARGARET: Into the ads, so inside the buses.

CARSON: Yeah. And so it ran for a month and then we would take them out and put in a new set.

MARGARET: And this was your work of though? This was not student work?

CARSON: No, it’s ours. We did show student art as well.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: That came later. I think we started showing [inaudible]. It only lasted for maybe I think a year.

MARGARET: Okay, one year. But that’s a pretty good amount of time for DART to be supporting that kind of public arts policy in the buses. Do you remember any sort of reception, I mean, obviously you know there’s a note in the News Journal but—

CARSON: No we didn’t really—

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MARGARET: What the reception was from the public.

CARSON: Well we were really excited when [inaudible].

MARGARET: Did that happen often?

CARSON: No. But the first time it happened we were really excited.

MARGARET: Yeah that’s great. Someone wanted it that much.

CARSON: They wanted it that much they stole it. I believe the first show that we did we took pictures of the bus. It’s sort of brings about that we did something that was transportation to begin with. I don’t think I have a show at that point.

MARGARET: Yes so of course, yeah, would you get the photographs back?

CARSON: Yes.

MARGARET: You would. So do you know if you have any of them anywhere?

CARSON: No I don’t, I think for a while I kept that first show. I would check but I think they almost stopped, one of the first big shows we did as part of the live engage shows was Delaware remembers 1890.

MARGARET: Right.

CARSON: I think I still have a box of the photographs from the collection.

MARGARET: You know it’s interesting because I cannot find much in the institutional archives about that show.

CARSON: Well it was not as fancy. Bob Frankel was director at that time. We didn’t have a big budget for that first show. I’m not sure whether we had gotten NIH money. I’m a little unclear.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: But we through a bunch of test board walls into the main gallery and we used to clamp—you know the student lamps with the articulated arms, that would like to show.

MARGARET: That was your life?

CARSON: The entire show. It was an extremely popular show, big attendance.

MARGARET: How?

CARSON: Because first of all we went around collecting, we would have days where we would show up at the Claymont or something in the call, we go out to the community to bring

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photographs. They would bring photographs. I would have copies made. I would shoot them and we would get people to tell stories about the photographs while I was shooting.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: And this is after the first seat of programs done, second seat program may have still, I don’t remember exactly—

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON:—how the show happened but it was possible. But pretty much it was the curatorial work that did that show. I worked, I did that all of the time. But in the Museum I was going to throw them away. And Betsy said, “Oh this is a sin.” There was no storage. There was no place to put anything so just walk away. I said, “No. I can’t do that.” So I took them home and I’ve been storing remember since—because I just didn’t have the heart to throw them away because these were people’s personal—

MARGARET: It drove Gary mad.

CARSON: It drove, yeah it drove Betsy crazy. She couldn’t believe it. You know it still blows my mind all that happened so quickly. Suddenly curatorial is getting interns. They’re getting grants for one-year contracts for people coming out of college to work on projects. And so there’s this huge, huge increase in new exhibits instead of just being a permanent collection. It’s happened constantly.

MARGARET: Right. The exhibition history through the 70s and the 80s is just incredible. And that kind of work that’s being—

CARSON: Remember the art pottery show? I can’t remember the woman who worked on that. She had to bring in stuff from all over the country and we didn’t have enough cases and you know, how do we afford new bonnets? I mean it was like a struggle to make it happen but we did.

MARGARET: Gosh that’s incredible. So the other ArtReach exhibition, Rhythm and Blues Red: A Visual Concert. This was held at the city County building?

CARSON: Yes. And Paul Miles came up with that name. Paul Miles becomes part of, he is hired. I believe he replaces Sue Rosenberg as a graphic designer.

MARGARET: Okay.

CARSON: And he came up with the name.

MARGARET: Because that was work by ArtReach?

CARSON: Right.

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MARGARET: Part of it.

CARSON: It was. And we had a couple shows. We also did one in the Downtown Gallery.

MARGARET: Right. And that’s what this one for?

CARSON: That one.

MARGARET: Right okay.

CARSON: I think we may have had, we did more than one show at the Downtown Gallery because I remember as the transition when the next group comes in, I think I may have been in that show but then you’ve got [inaudible], you’ve got [inaudible].

MARGARET: Oh Charles Burwell, yeah.

CARSON: So he’s part of the second group.

MARGARET: The second group, okay.

CARSON: Well we had—and then there was another one, I mean there was this like, turn that—

MARGARET: Wait, how do I do this?

[Break in Audio] CARSON: Okay, so what do you need to know about the show?

MARGARET: So, that show, I’m curious about the title—The Visual Concert—and wondering if that was—was that also a thematic show?

CARSON: I believe it was. I can’t remember what was in it.

MARGARET: See, it’s interesting because a lot of the materials about the ArtReach shows—for example, like Downtown Gallery—there are no images of the work. There’s no talk about the actual work that was shown. I don’t have a clue what that whole thing’s like and I can’t think—I can’t find any images [inaudible].

CARSON: Well, images were shot. One of the things that we did was—and the question is whether it all got done, but we shot 35mm black and white documents of all the elements, including at the Museum, at the Downtown Gallery when we were showing them. So there were photographs taken.

MARGARET: Because you all must have been documenting everything.

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CARSON: We documented everything. Everything that happened at the Museum, we were documenting.

MARGARET: Okay, so I need to find out where—

CARSON: There were black binders with 35mm negatives and they got [inaudible] because it was this document. We documented like crazy and part of it is that we were told that we needed to for reports in some way, but it just was we all had cameras and we just shot. I’d go down two, three times a week developing like tons of film for everybody.

MARGARET: Okay, so I need to check on that. The thing that makes me nervous is the recent renovation and the material may have been gotten rid of in that transition, but I’ll look in the—

CARSON: I would always hope that it ended up in the library, all that stuff.

MARGARET: Yeah, I’ll have to do some more digging. I haven’t dug completely into all of the institutional archives, so I’ll have to look at that. Okay, so tell me—now I want to shift away from ArtReach and hear your recollections of some of the other spaces that were showing contemporary art in downtown Wilmington, like Fifth Street, some places where you showed like [inaudible], Scotty’s Restaurant, L.B. Jones [Gallery].

CARSON: Well, by that point—actually, let’s see. By the time I was showing at L.B. Jones, even at Scotty’s, DCCA [Delaware Center for the Contemporary Arts] was already started.

MARGARET: Oh right, because those were in the ‘80s.

CARSON: Yeah, before DCCA comes on the map, Fifth Street Gallery is in. There’s no other gallery showing. At that point, the only other gallery that existed was Hardcastles and Hardcastles had two locations by that point. They had the old original store where they did not show [inaudible], but they showed a little bit of art at their Delaware Avenue store they had up there for a while. When Robbie Jones, the Fifth Street [inaudible], I mean I didn’t really know that much about him other than he was a waiter at Leounes Restaurant.

MARGARET: Which was in Wilmington?

CARSON: Yeah, it was right across the street from the [inaudible], along that stretch. It’s, I think, [inaudible] down. Yeah, he was a waiter in there and it was like a sort of high-end kind of eating place, but pretty [inaudible] likewise. On special occasions, you went there because there was no place there, except [inaudible]. Either that or you’re going to Hal Johnson’s there off the pike. There are no restaurants, nothing. Then something happens, ’77, ’78, ’79, the Opera House is open and other places start to open up and I can’t remember some of the names, but there were new restaurants coming open on the Ninth Street border between Market and Orange and there were restaurants there. I don’t know if they showed art or not. I guess not.

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So, yeah, so this street opens. Bollinger has a show. I don’t know if he had his first show there, but he has a dual show at the Delaware Art Museum and there. I think it’s the same one and it’s a really cool, cute place to go hang out. There’s like really weird people, really weird people. I mean you’ve got Joyce Brabner and Tom [Watkins] doing the comic book store and then doing their stuff upstairs, but that’s more performing arts, more related to film because they hook up with John Waters in Baltimore and occasionally some of those people would come up.

MARGARET: Would come up because that’s all part of the Rondo Center, right?

CARSON: Yes. Yeah, it was across from Fifth Street.

MARGARET: Okay, so that really is film performing and comic book.

CARSON: You’ve got Fifth Street Gallery and you’ve got them right across, catty-corner to them and so that becomes—like it’s just organically you’ve got this center of craziness. So there’s a lot of energy, the happenings at both places are always different, different than anything you can imagine. I mean just like the simplest thing, I can remember going to—they had a show at the Fifth Street Gallery and they served beer as the beverage of choice. Everyone thought that was—because by this point, we’re at the Delaware Art Museum and we’re slugging down all the free wine we can as employees and then we go and [inaudible].

Well, someone decided that would—somehow it fit the show and we’re like scratching or head. I mean it was cool. The performance pieces, you’ve got people at and this is where I had to look through my photographs. I remember one where people were like—models were dressed up in wearable art, wandering around, not talking to anyone, very New York. It was cool.

MARGARET: Yeah, it sounds absolutely incredible and then it’s interesting, I can’t find a lot about the show that he had at the Museum. There are some images, but most of the images that I found are from the News Journal, but that wonderful poured, polyurethane—I mean I can’t help, but think of [inaudible], who’s doing the work. Right around the same time, actually, not that much before the type of work that Rob is doing and it seems like in the exhibition programming he’s supporting local artists, certainly, but he’s supporting the kind of focus on community and focus on Wilmington and what the urban scene looked like at that time, which I think is really kind of interesting. It’s focusing on the city.

CARSON: Wilmington really, at that point, is not the [inaudible] and it’s a no-man’s land. Where this all takes place, it’s a place that you don’t go.

MARGARET: Downtown Wilmington.

CARSON: Right. Especially, the suburban life, I mean today. This is weird, so I’m in an Arts Council meeting last week and the Delaware said to me—of course, this is public. Comes in to do a presentation because of their change in circumstance and their budget has changed, so that changes the dynamics going forward, how much they’ll get. We actually decided, the arts

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council decided to give them more funding for this year because we wanted to—it was like a strong sort of support, like we don’t want you to go, whatever.

Now we didn’t have to do that because they were saying, “Well, instead of a $4 million budget, it’s a $1 million budget, which would have shrunk the amount of money we would get, but instead we decided to go ahead and just get [inaudible].” Well, it was difficult, but we decided—I think I was the one who said, “In a sense, we’re being venture capitalists for their turnaround.”

So they came in to do a presentation. They commented and said, “Yeah, I remember someone saying that it was venture capitalism,” but then they were talking about moving out of the grant and moving to having their performances [inaudible] and how it’s not a big venue, it’s 500 seats, but it’s full. Also, back then, people were so happy to not have to go into the city. This is still a factor and it is, I mean public safety. People freak out when they see in the paper people getting shot every day.

MARGARET: Do you recall a time in the—I don’t know—‘90s, early 2000s that that wasn’t the public opinion or has it really always been that way [inaudible]?

CARSON: It’s always been that way, it never changed.

MARGARET: That’s incredible.

CARSON: The only thing that changed is when banks came in, which also happened at the time that DCCA begins because our treasurer at DCCA writes the legislation for Delaware who now backs the charge of any credit card, but one of the things they did is they sort of pushed the banks into, “Okay, we’re doing this really big favor for you. You’re going to—” They pushed all the banks to developing Wilmington, not out in the county.

MARGARET: Oh, that’s interesting.

CARSON: So that keeps activity going in the city because people are still having to come into the city to work and that’s still the case of now, but the sidewalks [inaudible].

MARGARET: Yeah, they really do and on the weekends it is [inaudible].

CARSON: Except for what’s happening on this side of the tracks because it’s sort of this demarcation barrier, which separates this part from the rest of the city. I think a lot about this.

MARGARET: Yeah. No, it’s really interesting and I know—okay, wait. Where are we here? So before we move—wait, okay, I’ll try to stay chronological here. So, Fifth Street and Xanadu, central hub, downtown Wilmington. Fifth Street, according to Rob Jones’ obituary, though it’s difficult to find solid details, Fifth Street closed in ’79, according to the obituary, but it says it was founded in ’73 and that’s a pretty long run, but I’ve had a difficult time really establishing that exhibition history, that chronology because [inaudible] say Fifth Street didn’t last that long.

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CARSON: Yeah, we see it as ’77 to ’79. It’s just two years.

MARGARET: Right, so I need to kind of flesh that out.

CARSON: Maybe he’s thinking about it or maybe he’s doing something, but I don’t know. I’m trying to think, I’m trying to think if there’s anyone who might still remember him from that point. Tony Leounes is still alive. He’s about my age and his family owns the restaurant. So around the same time, he is probably working the restaurant with the family. He goes on to open his own restaurant behind the Delaware Art Museum years later. [Inaudible] down there and that became the new place to hang out. It was in the ‘80s.

MARGARET: Oh really? What was that restaurant?

CARSON: I think it was called Leounes.

MARGARET: Really? When did that close?

CARSON: He was open for maybe three, four years and then Art Museum staff, the bar was [inaudible].

MARGARET: I’ve never heard anyone mention that before.

CARSON: Because it’s right there, right behind the Museum.

MARGARET: That’s interesting. I have been—

CARSON: But Tony Leounes, it just occurs to me because he knew Rob. Even though we never really talked about this, he might be someone to talk to. I know he’s probably still in the area. I don’t think he’s dead.

MARGARET: Okay and I have been in touch with Tom Watkins.

CARSON: You have? Oh my God.

MARGARET: I know. Caitlin’s a fabulous intern. Caitlin tracked him down.

CARSON: Where is he?

MARGARET: He’s in Philadelphia. I’ve had two phone conversations with him and I just kind of keep gently prodding him to set up an interview. So that’s what I’m waiting for.

CARSON: He can be a little cantankerous and always was.

MARGARET: That’s what I’ve heard. I’ve been like a little nervous and Caitlin had an extensive interview with Anne Eder as well. So we’ve had some details.

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CARSON: Yeah and Anne is part of the Gary Pagano’s Dance. They’re doing their own thing, but that’s a little bit later, just a little bit. DCCA’s already happened. She’s still singing, Gary’s doing all kinds of stuff. Artist to Chef, just crazy, crazy man. Love it. He ran Scotty’s Restaurant. That was his own restaurant, where I had my show. At that point, DCCA’s already up and been functioning and Dan Frawley’s mayor. Dan comes to my [inaudible] and I think we may have just moved into the Waterworks at that point. So it’s moved [inaudible] chronologically.

MARGARET: I don’t want to do this part because I know that we have the publication for the DCCA, but I do want to talk about some of the early activities like Homage to Winter on Market Street Mall.

CARSON: Which was not a DCCA event.

MARGARET: Really? Okay, so tell me about that activity.

CARSON: Okay, before DCCA existed and this is where the art studios comes into the mix, a bunch of us are teaching at the art studios. Rick Rothrock grew real infamous in starting ArtSquad and ArtSquad is—I mean part of it is because he wants to be able to show his stuff, but he wants to—

MARGARET: That’s always the underlying motivation.

CARSON: Absolutely.

MARGARET: Of course.

CARSON: So he wants to be able to show his stuff and he’s doing big stuff. He likes to do big, but he was involved—I don’t know if he was teaching at the studios. He must have, like basically Kate Norfleet—that’s the other name from [inaudible]. Kate Norfleet, N-O-R-F-L-E-E-T. Scott Wilson, he’s probably still in the community. I forget what [inaudible]. They’re county employees and they’re running art studios and we’re all doing stuff.

So he puts together the ArtSquad and starts reaching out to do community type art projects that include community. We do one at Lum’s Pond where we actually have an art trail where kids can come through and there’s art stations to stop and do stuff. Homage to Winter may have been the last—I think we did three or four different events out in parks.

MARGARET: That would have included the one at zoo as well; there was one at the Brandywine Zoo?

CARSON: That’s part of ArtSquad.

MARGARET: Is this history in—this wouldn’t be in the DCCA catalog, the ArtSquad history?

CARSON: Well, the funny thing is that they show the image from Homage.

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MARGARET: That’s the one where he constructed the—

CARSON: That’s that, but this is not DCCA. No, this is ArtSquad, but it is the beginning of us doing it. So the ice sculpture, ice show did big images of 3x4 prints of ice on easels and the other people did stuff. Charlie [inaudible] was involved in that. There were a few artists who did some sort of presentation.

MARGARET: Do you still have those?

CARSON: No, there’s none.

MARGARET: Okay, okay. So, sorry, just to get this straight, you met at the [inaudible] art studios. Then the foundation, was organic, founded the ArtSquad.

CARSON: It’s not so organic. What happens is out of ArtReach, Rick and a couple others; although Rick says that he did everything. He never, he did a lot. They approached Del Tech, asked whether they could use one of their auditoriums and they had a series of meetings, public meetings where artists could come, the community could come. It’s a listening, it’s a chance for a bunch of artists to come together and talk about what we needed as a community.

MARGARET: The echoes, I mean, of course, this is why—

CARSON: Well, [inaudible], I’m telling Maiza [Hixson], I said, “We did this before, but it’s [inaudible] doing it.

MARGARET: I know and I mean this is the other thing that really got me started on this project is, of course, the opportunity to have gotten into the [inaudible] and see the remnants of Fifth Street, but then my involvement would be NWAA [New Wilmington Art Association] and just the echoes of these activities and my concern that NWAA was not aware of this pretty good history.

CARSON: Well, there’s nothing new in the world, but there’s great regeneration and recreation of wonderful [inaudible].

MARGARET: Oh yeah, it’s wonderful.

CARSON: I believe there are possibly three meetings and there are typically 100 people at the meetings. We’re talking visual arts, performing arts of all sorts—theater, etc.

MARGARET: Mostly Wilmington or Newark—probably not Philadelphia.

CARSON: Some from Newark, it’s mainly Delaware, Pennsylvania. It was under the line. So we start talking about what do we need as a group and from that begins to form a relation of putting together an arts group. We came up with the name Delaware Center for the Contemporary Arts, but it wasn’t—initially, we thought that it might be all the arts and not just the visual arts, but as

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the organization moved forward, it was the visual artists that showed up to [inaudible]. I’ve always been intrigued by that.

I remember being interviewed on WIR [inaudible]. They had this program called “State of the Art” [inaudible] and this is—I’m president of the board and Stephen Gunzenhauser reveals to me the director of [inaudible] is and Cleveland Morris from the Delaware Theatre Company, they were the two moderators. So I go and I’m talking about what they’re doing at DCCA. At this point, I think we’re in the waterworks building and they’re just going on and on about—and Steven says, “Well, I’m a little concerned about your [inaudible].”

Both of them are very snarky and I said, “Well, what do you mean?” He says, “Well, you only show visual arts. It’s the Delaware Center of Contemporary Arts.” I said, “Well, musicians went to the original meetings, but then they didn’t show up to work.” They both were like stunned.

MARGARET: Did the Theatre Company come out of these public meetings as well?

CARSON: No, but the energy that made the Theatre Company [inaudible] relates to that. Cleveland Morris decided—I mean he basically blows into town, decides he wants to do original theater and this is the same town DCCA’s happening, but there’s all this energy happening there and so [inaudible] Morris were—I don’t remember his background, but all we remember is that he wore $400 shoes. Everybody was talking his shoes because he wore really expensive shoes and we were [inaudible] because he was always dressed impeccably, but the theater people, they were like [inaudible].

MARGARET: They gravitated to him, okay.

CARSON: Now you would have to talk to theater—but that’s my gut feel because there is so much happening. Suddenly, he’s the core [inaudible] and the Theatre Company is up and running. In fact, almost—they predate us by a little bit. They managed to get—we both ended with buildings right across the street from each other on French Street. We’re at 224, they’re at 230. They’re on the other side of the street. They’re in an old firehouse and the original theater was not in the [inaudible], but they actually had stadium seating on two sides and the theater was in the middle between the two sides.

So basically they had, as actors, actually projectables. It was pretty crazy, but it was cool stuff and we move in—at this point, Rick’s—there’s a board. I’m not on the board at that point. I don’t know what happened, I probably was so involved with the Museum and stuff I was doing there. I sort of stepped back for a few months. They donated the building, but then the state decides not to donate it.

MARGARET: The building on French Street?

CARSON: 224 North French Street. And we were stuck, but they said that we can use it for about three years because they want to tear down all the buildings so the bank can have all that space for their companies, which is what happened.

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MARGARET: Right. So 224 French, so that would have been—I can visualize both ends of French Street. So you’ve got City/County State buildings and then down to the Waterworks at the other end. So which one is the 200 block?

CARSON: The 200 block right now is at—because it all looks so different. Well, as you can see, where they show it, it was along this section right here, about there.

MARGARET: Oh, across from—

CARSON: From this sort of parking garage. The Theatre Company was right here and the work continues up this way.

MARGARET: Okay. So it was closer to the river.

CARSON: Oh yeah.

MARGARET: Oh, of course, because obviously [inaudible], okay. Those look like right there at the train station.

CARSON: Yeah, right. That’s actually the bus station.

MARGARET: Yeah, it’s right across from the bus station.

CARSON: Yeah, there’s the parking garage. That’s the bus station.

MARGARET: You know what? I haven’t even looked into the history of all of the public [inaudible].

CARSON: This street, [inaudible] Street, had all the [inaudible].

MARGARET: Okay. Okay, so that was—

CARSON: So we move in, start cleaning the place out and [inaudible] for the first shows. I don’t know. I don’t know what—

MARGARET: Yeah. No, no. Okay, those are good questions. Tell me about—and this is jumping ahead in history, but I did want to ask about a two-person show that you had with Terence Roberts at 1909 N. Market, 2nd Floor. What was that space?

CARSON: That was our studio together. We shared it, we were there for 13 years. We would show our work there and we’d have performance artists, we had theater pieces happening. DCCA’s like fully functioning on its own and this is a point where I can sort of—DCCA, even though I continued to be a member and going to things, I’m no longer on the board and [inaudible]. I mean I actually [inaudible] get back on the board and they didn’t [inaudible]. There was some weirdness there.

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MARGARET: Who was the director at that time?

CARSON: Well, Steve Lanier is the director, but it’s the board members themselves. It’s to a point where they’re trying to put you out. The board has changed from being an artist board at that point—even though we’d always had business people [inaudible], but it was still majority were artists to being corporate. So we’re doing stuff. We had this 2,000 sq. ft. space. I did some really interesting pieces that I couldn’t ever share with anyone else. Multi-panel pieces that were 20 ft. long by 8 ft. high.

MARGARET: Tell me when you two got the studio. What was the chronology there?

CARSON: We moved in in 1990 to about 2003. I think. I know it was 13 years.

MARGARET: So you had that studio before you moved to—

CARSON: To [inaudible], yeah, but I had a studio [inaudible]. I think it was actually while I worked in the [inaudible] for a while, basically two, three years, four years maybe and [inaudible] studios and I sublet. I started at the [inaudible] studios when I left the Museum. That’s maybe ’83, ’84. I never can remember when I did stuff. It’s a little vague. I worked on so many different grants, [inaudible] foundation.

MARGARET: Okay, but it was mostly grant-funded, all grant-funded, your time at the Museum?

CARSON: After the first two years.

MARGARET: After the first two years, okay. I just want to hear a bit more about the photography studio on North Market Street.

CARSON: Well, I decide to leave the DCCA studios. I wanted a different space and Terry had come into town. So we’d discussed sharing this, which is a little unusual, but we were able to negotiate a really good price, which was very, very—I’m paying more now for this space than I did for that space, and so we went in and did all the renovations. It was a beautiful space. [Inaudible] and I’d done a lot of commercial work at that time. I’m doing a little work in the art museum. I’ve always sort of filled in and done projects for the Art Museum the whole time. I’ve worked for other museums, too.

When I worked with Delaware Museum, I did [inaudible]. I shot their entire Japanese [inaudible] collection, their entire American [inaudible]. They only wanted black and white negatives and prints. It wasn’t contact prints. It was pre-digital where they would still paint things on the cards.

MARGARET: Right, right. Yeah, we have some of those still in our project files. Oh wow, so the commercial work, were you also doing commercial work for DuPont at this time?

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CARSON: Yeah, I’d go in for DuPont. I was working for [inaudible], so I would get a lot of work through that. So lots of big-name companies that I would do part of the time. [Inaudible], but I’m making art the entire time. So the commercial work was paying for the—which it still is.

MARGARET: Right and in addition to showing your own work, did you show the work of other photographers and other visual artists?

CARSON: No. No, just ours. Except for the theater. We did, I think, one or two theater things and that was with Darcy there. I forget the guy’s name, but he wrote Assassins, which—who’s the big producer right now, New York? Took to Broadway, sort of [inaudible]. That’s the Assassins on Broadway [inaudible]. He got credit for it, but the final production was nothing like this original, but Gary [inaudible] was involved at that point. He did theater, he did visual arts. Plus, he cooked, so [inaudible], but yeah, we did many, many [inaudible]. We did many art shows at the studios. We must have done seven or eight. I probably [inaudible]

MARGARET: I came across that because—

CARSON: Oh yeah. I think that’s one of the first one’s I did.

MARGARET: That’s what I wondered, yeah. So that was, yeah, February 16, 1990.

CARSON: Yeah, that was our first one.

MARGARET: That was the first, okay.

CARSON: Oh my God, you’ve got all kinds of stuff.

MARGARET: We’ve have all sorts of fun things in your artist vertical file and this will be my last question, I promise, because it’s quarter ‘til. I’ve been asking everyone about the shifts that you saw in the contemporary art scene in Wilmington in the 1990s.

CARSON: Nineteen-nineties?

MARGARET: Yeah, early 1990s and I’m thinking specifically of the closing of so many galleries. So, when Susan Isaacs Gallery closed and it definitely seemed to be a quieter time from what I’ve found.

CARSON: Part of the reason that happens is because the business isn’t there to sell art and so the galleries that survived—Station Gallery is a good example, they’re a frame shop. [Inaudible] is a frame shop even though they do sell art [inaudible]. [Inaudible] opened up pretty early on. He must have been opened by 1979-80 because I showed there in ’81 because Kathy Buckalew had around that period.

MARGARET: Did you say you showed with Kathy Buckalew?

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CARSON: No, I didn’t. She showed there, too, but no, we didn’t show together. I know we showed together at some point, but it wasn’t that one. The picture on the card there, that’s what I remember. Yeah, because we dated for a year and then she said, “Well, I’m gay.”

MARGARET: Well, that’s interesting because Susan ran a frame shop as well. She did framing, but that wasn’t her primary focus.

CARSON: Yeah, but the farming is what paid the bills. So, did L.B. Jones Gallery. I guess she’s partners with another person and it’s down on—I forget the name. It’s a two-story, basically roadhouse, and basically they have a gallery upstairs and they show some work on the first floor as well. Showing there was really fun. She was so incredibly supportive of people and was willing to take chances; especially like the piece you just saw that you have a printout. She put that in that little space and it was the first thing you saw when you walked in. It was pretty dramatic.

MARGARET: So did you start showing with Susan early on?

CARSON: No, I showed there just once and it was still L.B. Jones. When she moved over to Eleventh Street, which was a beautiful space, beautiful gallery, I never showed there. She’s reaching out at that point; she’s bringing in artists from outside of the area as well as [inaudible]. She’s starting to think like a curator.

MARGARET: I would not make a good gallery owner, curator/gallery owner.

CARSON: Yeah, but she did really good shows at that space. Loved it. She always had an interesting eye for stuff and she saw that it was a difficult place to be. Rent, I think, went up and she went in academia, including being a curator here for no money forever.

MARGARET: Well, I think that’s a perfect place to end, so I’m going to turn this off.

[End of Audio] [Duration total: 92 minutes]