o f t y n w a l d c o u r t o f f i c i a l r e p o r t · s t a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e o f t...

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,

Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2015

S T A N D I N G C O M M I T T E E

O F

T Y N W A L D C O U R T

O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L

B I N G V E A Y N T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

SOCIAL AFFAIRS POLICY REVIEW COMMITTEE

DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

HANSARD

Douglas, Wednesday, 13th April 2016

PP2016/0068 SAPRC-EC, No. 2/15-16

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

STANDING COMMITTEE, WEDNESDAY, 13th APRIL 2016

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Members Present:

Chairman: Mr D C Cretney MLC Hon. S C Rodan SHK Mr G G Boot MHK

Clerk:

Mr J D C King

Contents Procedural ...................................................................................................................................... 29

EVIDENCE OF Hon. T Crookall, Minister, Prof. R Barr, Chief Executive, .............................................

Department of Education and Children ......................................................................................... 29

The Committee sat in private at 4.43 p.m. .................................................................................... 47


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Standing Committee of Tynwald on Social Affairs Policy Review

Department of Education and Children

The Committee sat in public at 3.45 p.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber,

Legislative Buildings, Douglas

[MR CRETNEY in the Chair]

Procedural

The Chairman (Mr Cretney): Welcome back to this public meeting of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee, a Standing Committee of Tynwald.

Please ensure that your mobile phone is on silent, at the minimum, so that we do not have any interruptions.

For the purposes of Hansard I will be ensuring that we do not have two people speaking at 5

once.

EVIDENCE OF Hon. T Crookall, Minister,

Prof. R Barr, Chief Executive, Department of Education and Children

Q70. The Chairman: We are now going to hear from the Department of Education and 10

Children and I would like to begin by asking each of you, for the record, to state your name and job title.

The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Crookall): Good afternoon, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee. I am Tim Crookall, Minister for the Department of Education and Children. 15

Prof. Barr: Good afternoon, Chairman. I am Prof. Ronald Barr and I am Chief Executive of the

Department of Education and Children.

Q71. The Chairman: Thank you and welcome. We last heard from you on 15th October 2015. Would you like to make any opening

statement on how things have been going since then? 20

The Minister: Thank you, Chairman. I have to say things have progressed fairly satisfactorily within the Department, all things

borne in mind with regard to funding and those sorts of things. Staffing has been a bit of an issue, certainly within the hub at Hamilton House. We have had

several changes for whatever reason: retirement, sickness, which have caused us one or two 25


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issues trying to sort those out. But the staff, as they do right the way across Government, all pull together in a time of need and we are coping.

Across the primary and secondary schools and the College, again, with such a big organisation, with such a lot of employees, full-time and part-time, there have been issues there. But we continue, I believe, to provide what we are told by outside sources and what we 30

believe ourselves to be a very good service, sir.

Prof. Barr: Do you want to say about the NSC?

The Minister: Yes. I have just been reminded by Prof. Barr, we are all well aware of 3rd December, the storm that affected the NSC. That was the biggest part of our portfolio that was affected. We believe at the moment it was somewhere around about £2.5 million/£3 million 35

worth of damage that was done there. As you may be well aware now, the outside facilities are all back online except for the high

jump and the long jump pits; we are just waiting for the cushions there to go back in. The indoor sports centre: the floors there are due to start going back down in the very foreseeable future. We hope to have that back very soon. 40

Q72. The Chairman: Okay, thank you. When we met in October we asked you about cost improvement. Please can you remind us

of the overall budget of the Department?

Prof. Barr: The budget of the Department is about £92 million. We are continuing to make year on year savings. 45

This year Treasury has allowed a 1% increase in the budget to accommodate pay rises; in the previous financial years those have had to be accommodated within the Department's existing budgets. Those are in the order of between £0.5 million and £600,000, so those have been fairly challenging numbers to meet over the last three or four years.

Beyond that, we have been doing various other things to move forward cost improvement. 50

We recently launched the new university college of the Isle of Man and that is part of a medium-term strategy to save Government, by about 2020, about £1.5 million as we grow more and more higher education to be delivered on Island.

We have a range of other things that we are also looking at in terms of teaching assistant provision across schools and the introduction of a new student award system to provide online 55

applications and reduce back office functions, and there are a number of other initiatives as well which are currently on the go.

Q73. The Chairman: So presumably you are content with what was voted to the Department in the Budget?

Prof. Barr: I thought – 60

The Chairman: You could always want for more, but that is – Prof. Barr: I think it was a very fair settlement. I think Treasury do their best under difficult

circumstances. We are confident that we will be able to meet our obligations in this financial 65

year. Q74. The Chairman: Okay. We have talked over the years about delegated financial management and the centralisation

of services. How are you finding the new centralised service regime? 70


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The Minister: Shared services, Mr Chairman, are working in most areas. We have had issues with some of those. We try to work through those; the schools try to work through those.

The latest one is the fleet shared services with the minibuses and things. That is ongoing at the moment. It is basically in its infancy, so we will see how that one pans out between 75

ourselves and DoI. The issues that we had last time we met with regard to the cleaning and the caretaking side

of things, I believe is getting better. So, yes … 80

Q75. The Chairman: How about Payroll, Human Resources and Estates? How is that? Prof. Barr: I think – if I can just say – with GTS on the IT side, that is working well; I think also

in OHR, where we centralised the OHR functions. There are some operational issues with Jobtrain which I think all Departments have been struggling with, but by and large that has 85

worked well. Caretaking and cleaning is bedding in well. We are not receiving a lot of adverse comments

from either parents or from schools or the College with regard to those. Q76. Mr Boot: I have done some school visits just recently and, talking to the heads about 90

centralised financing, I think they preferred to have more control over what they are doing. So my question is really – as I am fairly new to this – has the centralisation cut costs? What is

the idea of the centralisation? The Minister: If it has cut costs? (Mr Boot: Yes.) It has taken some of the expenditure away 95

from the schools with regard to the cleaning, the caretaking and the catering. Those have all gone back to DoI, so they have not got that budget any more to deal with themselves.

Q77. Mr Boot: But they lose the flexibility then of dealing with it in-house. 100

Prof. Barr: If I may say, Mr Boot, the whole purpose of shared services was to reduce overall Government expenditure. Obviously it is something which is quite a significant change. There is clear evidence that centralisation – for example, of IT contracts – has saved Government significant money. There is an ongoing review of shared services which is due to report back sometime later this year on how successful it has been. There are saving targets attached to all 105

of these in terms of – Q78. Mr Boot: The question is premature, really? Prof. Barr: Yes. The evidence to date, as far as Chief Officers are concerned, is that there 110

have been savings achieved through shared services, particularly in relation to IT contracts but not exclusively.

Q79. The Chairman: You told us last time that you were working on a proposed Education Bill

for the next House of Keys. Could you remind us why you need the new legislation and how that 115

work is going on? The Minister: Yes, we certainly are still working on that, Chairman. John Gill, the former legal

man in the Department, retired last July. We brought in Andrew Shipley who is now, once he has settled in and sorted out one or two other issues within the Department … He has now picked 120

up that mantle. We are hoping to bring that forward in the year 2017-18. Obviously that will have to be drawn up there in draft and go out to Members; it will go out to full consultation. Hopefully, we will have that in the 2017-18 year.


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Q80. Mr Boot: Why do we need the new Bill? 125

Prof. Barr: Because the existing Bill is somewhat dated and there are items in it which need to be refreshed, particularly with regard to provision of things such as religious education.

There are also issues with regard to pre-schools and the fact that we have no statutory ability to issue any kind of educational inspections within the pre-school private sector provision.

There are a range of other items such as that that the Department needs to really bring 130

forward, which we can only do through statute. I notice you have also got the Education Council on here. Again, that is something which the

Department is looking at, ultimately to perhaps remove and replace with an independent ombudsman to handle complaints which are brought against Education, sports and the arts, which we are responsible for. In our view, that would be more cost-efficient and more 135

independent than the current Education Council. But we cannot move on a lot of these things unless we have primary legislation.

The Minister: Also – sorry Chairman – on the back of that, catchment areas are an issue to

the Department and that will be included within the new Education Bill. 140

Q81. The Speaker: Is it intended the Education Bill will be the vehicle for any functions that

you may have in relation to your responsibilities for children? You are still the Department of Education and Children. Of course, a Children's Bill was, in 2010, going to be on the cards before it was dropped. 145

Is what we are talking about purely educational services, core services of your core function, and not in respect of cross-departmental interests in children – wellbeing, for example?

The Minister: Yes, the title ‘Education and Children’ does not really tell the tale, Mr Speaker.

‘Children’ is a redundant part of the title. It does not carry any weight, if I can put it like that. It is 150

actually quite embarrassing at times when people say, ‘What do you do with regard to children?’ We do education, but the ‘Children’ side tends to come more under the Social Services’ side of things rather than us, although we obviously work with Social Services. We educate children, but that is only the education side of it.

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Q82. The Speaker: It does rather highlight that you are the lead Department of Government for children's welfare across the board.

Prof. Barr: I think there is a sense of confusion there, as the Minister has indicated. The

correct title for the Department really ought to be the ‘Department of Education, Sports and the 160

Arts’ or ‘Sports and Culture’. For cost reasons and other reasons, a determination was made not to change the Department name.

It is confusing, particularly when we go to other jurisdictions, and it does, I think, on Island, blur the statutory responsibilities in terms of children's services, which actually sit far more with Health and Social Care from a statutory point of view than they do from Education. 165

The Speaker: Thank you. Q83. The Chairman: We just spoke about the Education Council that has recently been

appointed. When does that term of office cease? 170

The Minister: That is a three-year term now, Mr Chairman. Q84. The Chairman: Three years. So are you hoping that the proposal for an ombudsman

may coincide with that? Is that what the plan is? 175


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Prof. Barr: That was the plan and that is why it was drafted in that way. Q85. The Chairman: Some people may suggest that the Board of Education was a more

democratic organisation than what we have now. Do you have any views on that? 180

Prof. Barr: My own view is that the Education Council is a very laudable organisation and contains people who are obviously genuinely interested in education, and the Minister and I and other senior officials meet with them on a regular basis. However, the reality is that it is not really truly independent because those meetings are chaired by the Minister. I think that is why I say that actually if we are really being truly accountable, you would move to something that was 185

far more independent than that. The individuals concerned are not in the pocket of the Department, but I do think from a public point of view and from a political point of view a much clearer delineation between the two would be better.

Q86. The Chairman: Okay, thank you. 190

What progress have you made on developing educational standards for preschool settings? You have referred to that; again, that is something that is going to be in the Education Bill, yes?

Prof. Barr: It is, but we do have a number of initiatives that are on-going in terms of

preschool education. We are liaising very closely with the Registration and Inspections Unit of 195

Health and Social Care. That roughly takes place every half term. We have reached agreement with DHSC in principle that joint inspections with both Departments would be the right way forward.

We have been looking at leadership in terms of Registration and Inspections as well. We have a planned training day organised by Department of Education and Children in May and also by 200

the Education Improvement Service on early years, and that is going to be led by former HMI inspectors in early years education.

So we are trying our best where we can, without having the legislative framework and the statutory framework to do so, to try and engage in this space.

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Q87. The Chairman: In terms of the inspections that you have just referred to where you have an agreement with the other Department, wasn’t that the case last time you came? So it is still taking some time to get …?

Prof. Barr: It cannot move forward, Chairman – 210

Q88. The Chairman: You require to have legislation? The Minister: – unless we have the Education Act. That is one of the key elements within any

new legislation that we are bringing forward. 215

The Chairman: Right, okay. The Minister: But they do have a very good working relationship between the two, or the

officers involved now, Chairman. I must say it is much better than it was originally and it is 220

working. Q89. The Speaker: Is that on the basis that preschool education is not a statutory

requirement? You have general powers to make schemes for education, and inspection could be part of that. Is it because it is preschool? 225


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Prof. Barr: It is preschool and it is in the private sector, in the same way that we have no statutory powers to inspect King William’s College. That is the issue, in the sense that we would need to have that framework.

We tried to actually see if it could be tacked onto the existing legislative framework within 230

Health and Social Care, and they tried their very best to help us with that but there was not a way forward with that, so it has come back to it needs to be part of the new Education Act when you bring it forward.

The Chairman: Okay. 235

Q90. The Speaker: You talked about inspection of private institutions. Are there any plans to

go wider than that in ensuring parents carry out their duty of educating their children? That is a general duty; your duty is to provide the schools for those that want them.

240

Prof. Barr: There are no plans to do anything with regard to those who choose to home-educate their children other than what the current situation is where they have to register, but that is what they are doing. We have no plans to move in any other direction with that.

But you are talking about going wider. The one area that again I think needs to be included within a new Education Act is where we have private sector providers – and I have referenced 245

this to the Committee before – where we have, potentially, people coming in and offering educational courses in the private sector. There have been cases in the past where that has not been very successful in the Island and has damaged, I think, sometimes, the educational opportunities of young people.

I think we know from immigration and from other bodies across Government that there are 250

many people who come to the Island and make offers of setting up private education establishments – all kinds of things like that. Actually, if such things are set up, how are we going to reassure ourselves that they are actual operating to the required standard and not damaging young people and actually causing reputational damage to the Island? (The Chairman: Absolutely.) Again, that is something that probably needs to sit in any new primary legislation. 255

The Speaker: Thank you. Q91. Mr Boot: How many people are actually home-educating at the moment? 260

The Minister: It is about 40, I think. That figure has been fairly stable for quite some years now, but we think it is round about 40.

Q92. Mr Boot: Do you monitor their results in exam terms or anything? There is nothing

going on there at all? 265

The Minister: No. Prof. Barr: No. 270

Q93. The Chairman: Have you been able to make any progress in identifying special educational needs early in the context of the new preschool arrangements?

The Minister: Yes. We have an arrangement with the preschools, Chairman, where they have

access to the Preschool Assessment Centre. If they think there are any issues, they are more 275

than welcome – in conjunction with the parents and the children involved – to make use of that facility.


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Q94. The Chairman: It is very appropriate that the next question … With all its faults, the previous arrangements did, to an extent, concentrate the preschool provision in what may be 280

described as more deprived areas. Has there been any progress in terms of redressing that balance?

The Minister: I have to say, Chairman, that – and it obviously depends on what you would call

a ‘deprived area’ – when the offers went out to tender, for most of those areas which I think you 285

are probably talking about, there were not any offers that came in for those areas. That does not mean to say that we have not been working and talking to people with a view to – in the next year, when we go back out to tender – hoping to provide something in there, or somebody providing something in those areas.

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Q95. The Chairman: That is exactly the point, I think, Minister. I have previously asked whether, in the absence of the private sector stepping up to such, it is something either the Department or the Department in conjunction with another party may seek to fill that gap, if it is not one that is financially going to stack up?

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Prof. Barr: I think there is an issue there, obviously. What we have seen is that the private sector is taking the easier bits and the profitable bits, and that is fine. There is an issue, when you talk about ‘deprivation’, I would suggest that it is the more rural areas as well as potentially poorer areas, and it is how we manage that. I think that is an issue for Government in the sense of perhaps incentivising the private sector to do this. 300

It is either that or you are then into a position of potentially Government re-entering an area that it left to the private sector. So either of those options, I would suggest, are political but I do not doubt that we need a decision in this area because the current provision is not where we would want it to be.

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The Speaker: No. Q96. The Chairman: Good, well I agree with the last statement. Have you relaxed your catchment policy? 310

The Minister: Not at all, Chairman; if anything, we are getting tougher on it. We have to make sure that the schools are staffed properly and to the right numbers if

possible. We try to control the children crossing over the boundaries as and when we can. It is not always possible. If there is a reason to do it, there has to be a good reason. But we know there is some abuse that goes on: people say they are living in an area or moving to an area. 315

That will always go on, we think, but we are trying to curtail that and, as I said, that will be tightened up again in the new Education Bill.

Prof. Barr: We have a small minority of head teachers – and it is a small minority – who I

think would welcome a laissez-faire approach to this, but it is not the Department’s policy and 320

where that has happened it has been made clear to head teachers that is against the policy of the Department.

Q97. Mr Boot: Where a school is perhaps ‘under-pupilled’, for want of a better word – an

Americanism – are they allowed to take people from outside of their catchment area as a matter 325

of course or are they discouraged from doing that? Prof. Barr: They are not allowed to do it as a matter of course. It is something which we

manage very closely from a Department perspective, and what we need to be doing is utilising the existing infrastructure, that has been paid for by the taxpayer, to the maximum benefit. This 330


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is why we are so opposed to relaxing catchment areas, because you would have some school that is already full, that is deemed to be popular or whatever it is, and you would have a stream of people wanting to go there. We would then be under pressure to build additional infrastructure to accommodate that, while you then have school buildings that are lying in other areas which are not being fully utilised. That is not actually value for money, and it is not a good 335

use of existing resources. That is where we are. Catchment areas are very important to make sure that we can, from time to time, make

adjustments so that we are actually able to … For example, Peel Clothworkers: conceivably as more and more of those houses are occupied around Peel and young families come into them, before you would look at perhaps building additional capacity at Peel Clothworkers, you would 340

look to use the existing schools’ capacity at Michael and also in St John's. And in St John's that would then tip out into Foxdale, because you have got an existing school structure there that you can actually utilise in slightly different ways.

Once you have done that, I think the Department has a much stronger case to argue for additional infrastructure spend, but we have got to demonstrate we are using the existing 345

infrastructure effectively and appropriately. Q98. The Chairman: Okay. It is not on the sheet here, but can I just ask how things are going

in terms of Westmoreland Road and the school development there? Are you nearly ready to – 350

The Minister: Yes, the new Henry Bloom Noble School, Mr Chairman, is still on schedule. It is a couple of weeks behind but it will be finished during the summer holidays and those two old schools –

Q99. The Chairman: I was going to ask you … That was the next point. 355

The Minister: – will be coming in under that one banner. They are under one banner now:

Henry Bloom Noble School, but they physically will move into that one at the start of the Christmas term in September.

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Q100. The Chairman: Do you have a plan for the sites at Ballacloan and Fairfield? The Minister: They will be offered around Government and then I presume the Strategic

Asset Management Unit will take control of those and do as they see fit. 365

The Chairman: Right. Prof. Barr: The Salvation Army is using Fairfield for, I think, a year but just as a temporary

measure. 370

Q101. The Chairman: Okay, good. What is the latest on pupil data? Prof. Barr: As in …? 375

The Minister: As in the central database? The Speaker: The central database. The Chairman: Yes, I think that is what I am being prompted on. 380


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The Minister: That, as we know, was turned on after I came back to Tynwald a couple of months ago. As a result of that coming back in now, certainly the educational psychologists have access to the information – and they were the ones that were most hard done by while that was turned off, while we were resolving the issue. It does mean that we have access back to the 385

information that we need – albeit in numerical terms and not by names – and we were getting before for the Department’s benefit.

The Chairman: Thank you. 390

Q102. The Speaker: Can I just ask you to confirm that the regulations governing providing information to parents in respect of data held in schools is to be updated to reflect the regulations passed this February in Tynwald, which gave the authority and the legal powers to the Department actually to hold and collect data that went beyond registration and admission: the new central pupil database, in effect. 395

The Minister: There was certainly a commitment given to Tynwald, Mr Speaker, that parents

would have access to that and to make sure that was updated and they were able to check it – if I am reading you right, sir.

400

Q103. The Speaker: Yes, I think the commitment was given in Tynwald that it was identified that the existing 2004 regulations would need to correspond with the widened data that the Department and head teachers are now allowed to hold and disclose and be required to disclose to parents.

405

The Minister: That commitment was given that the 2004 regulations would be updated, Chair.

Q104. The Speaker: Yes. Just for the record, I need the confirmation that that is happening. 410

The Minister: I am sure Mr Shipley is working on that. Q105. The Speaker: Yes. Thank you very much. As a general comment, the amount of data that the Department can now have the ability to

hold: huge amounts of soft data on children … In primary schools, you will be aware, you are 415

trialling a system called Arbor for collecting information, which is a huge amount of soft data. If it is improperly disclosed – and I think assurances have been given that it will only go where it needs to go and not be shared indiscriminately across Government departments … That getting an off-the-shelf system of data collection actually would not necessarily be appropriate in the Isle of Man. You need to make sure it is tailored for what the schools actually need, if you are 420

not to be swamped and do nothing but analyse data? The Minister: Yes, Mr Speaker, I am told that any information we are collecting is stuff that

we do need and, if there is stuff on Arbor that we never use, then so be it, but we will only be collecting information that we do need and do use. 425

Q106. The Speaker: And provision is made to dispose of it ultimately, presumably when it is

no longer necessary? The Minister: Yes, I think that was another commitment that I gave to Tynwald, sir. 430


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Prof. Barr: I would also say, Mr Speaker, that there is no intention with the Arbor system … This is an education system; there is no intention to share that information with other Government departments, which was also the question that you raised.

435

Q107. The Speaker: Because some of the information is potentially very sensitive: family information, ethnicity, potential safeguarding, child protection issues can be flagged up on that data and rightly be made available to those that need to see it.

Prof. Barr: Only those that need to see it and again it is heavily anonymised as well. I think 440

we do not take this lightly in terms of what we have with this system. It has now been rolled out across all our primary schools and we will see how it works.

Q108. The Chairman: Okay. Could I ask the Minister, do you have a view on whether the policy elsewhere in relation to 445

academies is one which you have considered? The Minister: We have discussed it, Mr Chairman. We certainly would not entertain it here.

What we have here, we are very happy with; it works and provides us with what we believe is a very good education system. We do not see any reason to change it. The views of visitors that 450

we have had here – whether they be unions or heads or teachers – is that what we have got backs that up, and there is no reason to change it.

Q109. The Chairman: Okay. Thank you. Are you satisfied with the process of schools’ evaluation and review? 455

Prof. Barr: Yes, the answer would be to that. Obviously we have that responsibility under

section 50 of the Education Act and we have what is called an SSRE process, all underpinned by common performance indicators. We have self-evaluation which takes place in our schools. We have link advisers who essentially are, in old money, school inspectors. We have two for the high 460

schools and four for the primary schools and they operate in cluster groups. We have external validation, which is done by an external company called WCL. They have

the final say on any disagreements between the schools or the Education Improvement Service on the outcomes of any reports that are made.

The other thing to note is our inspection process is significantly less expensive than Ofsted, 465

with the approximate cost of an Ofsted inspection being about £20,000, compared to the annual cost of our school inspector or school adviser, which is a salary with one cost of about £50,000. So the Ofsted inspection regime, if it was introduced here, would be significantly more expensive than the one we have currently got. I do not think it would yield any better results, quick frankly, in terms of what we have got. 470

Q110. Mr Boot: How many schools do you evaluate every year or do they all get evaluated

every year? Prof. Barr: We operate a process where they are all evaluated on a rolling programme. What 475

happens is that, if they have got a good inspection, there is a light touch. We have a capacity within the Department to actually put in additional special inspections and, from time to time, we have brought in special advisers or consultants from the UK, if we have had a particular concern over a particular issue within a school. That is also something that is available to Geoff Moorcroft who is the Director of Education; that is over and above our own internal processes. 480

The results of those, obviously, are published openly and are also presented to the Minister and political Members within the Department.


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Q111. The Speaker: Can I ask how you undertake independent external assessment of the Department’s own central services: special needs, psychology service, school meals, all the 485

centralised services that you do? Prof. Barr: Well, some of these things no longer sit with us, such as school meals which

obviously sits with Health, (The Speaker: Yes, of course.) as does IT with GTS. So, increasingly, a lot of those centralised services rest with other Government Departments, not with us. 490

I am struggling to think … In terms of special needs, that would be done within the inspection that would be done within the school. Where you have units that sit within the school, they would be included in that SSRE report.

Q112. The Speaker: Because quite a few years ago there was an Ofsted inspection done at 495

the Department itself, in the days when Ofsted went to schools. It was of the Department and its management, having regard to its role combining a local education authority and a department of state role rolled into one, and providing central services as well.

Prof. Barr: The central services would be checked in terms of how the schools view them, 500

because that would come up through the schools’ own inspection processes. In other words, how they felt they were being supported with regard to special needs and another things which are provided by the Department.

If you are suggesting we should have another independent departmental inspection, then that is something which the Department could consider. Obviously there would be a financial 505

cost attached to that, but I am satisfied, as Chief Executive of the Department, that if such an inspection took place that we would come out of it relatively well.

The Speaker: Okay, thanks. 510

Q113. The Chairman: What progress have you made with developing vocational qualifications? And, perhaps an add-on to that, how are you getting on in terms of working with the Department of Economic Development’s Education and Training Division, in terms of meeting the needs of the economy going forward?

515

The Minister: I can take the second question first, Mr Chairman. We have a very good working relationship with DED with regard to training and engineering in particular. The facilities that we have been able to provide over the last couple years, after Treasury and Tynwald have approved funding to us, we now have some very good opportunities for training in the engineering sector. 520

With regard to vocational training, we have now got all the five secondary schools – from 14 to 16-year-olds – working back with the College doing vocational training if they want to, and all schools are using that facility. I am not sure on the numbers that have taken that up, but it is certainly very, very good and it is looking good for the future.

525

Prof. Barr: I think I would add as well that we are trialling the Scottish Vocational Awards in both the College and some of our schools. We have an aspiration … The vision of the Department would be to have the International GCSEs – which by this time next year, 70% of our GCSE offer will be through Cambridge. Where it is not, it is through Northern Ireland or Wales, because they still have a letter grade system and we are very keen to keep an A through G 530

consistent letter grade system for all of our GCSE provision. Having said all that – and it is a huge piece of work and I think our teachers have done a

fantastic job operationalising a lot of this – we need to find a vocational offer that is innovative and works in a different educational way, because some of the Cambridge GCSEs are fairly traditional and they will not suit all learners. So we need to have a very innovative, vocational 535


__________________________________________________________________ 40 SAPRC-EC/15-16

offer, and the Scottish vocational qualifications have received a lot of very good press, just quietly, in the Middle East and in the Far East and elsewhere.

We are working very closely with SQA in Scotland. We have a group of educational leaders: deputy heads, curriculum leaders, senior managers from the College, who are going up to Scotland very soon to meet senior education officials in Scotland. We have a couple of our 540

schools now who have been badged as centres for the SQA. We are still working with City & Guilds, Edexcel and those other areas where appropriate, but I think for us it is an exciting time in education. If we can get that innovative vocational offer to sit alongside a very stable GCSE offer, by and large badged through Cambridge, and then the other bit is the A-level offer where I think we need to be looking again at perhaps maintaining the AS and A2 – and that can be done, 545

again, through an international model – and then topped off by the university college. That is really the five-year vision, educationally, for the Department.

Q114. The Speaker: Where do you benchmark against? Given the changes in the UK, who do

you benchmark exam performance against? 550

Prof. Barr: This is something which is always difficult because we are a unique jurisdiction,

where we actually use different types of awards from different types of places. People sometimes think that when you say that you are trying to avoid those comparisons, but actually to make the comparisons, you have to make a number of adjustments to make them meaningful 555

because you are not actually comparing like with like. So, for example, something like the PISA reports are not useful to us because you have to have a minimum, as I understand it, of about 130 schools to participate in PISA. So people can roll out some of these things, Mr Speaker, and they are not necessarily things, (a) we can participate in or (b) that we can usefully measure ourselves against. 560

Having said that, we measure each school’s performance against each other on Island and over and above that we do look at the whole of the North West of England’s performance in terms of whether various education authorities are in the North West, in terms of their pass rates on GCSEs, A through C in English and maths or five GCSEs of any sort, A through C. Those are produced on an annual basis. We produce those tables, those figures. 565

All of that information is made available to the Minister and political Members. It is also made available to our schools. All of our high schools see each other’s results. So in that sense, that is where we are with this. We have no inclination to produce formalised league tables and with FOI coming up next year, the likelihood is that we will publish this information and, if people wish to create their own league tables or do something, then that will be for them. 570

Q115. The Speaker: I was going to ask: the expectation of a lot of parents new to the Island,

who are used to league table situations and moving into catchment areas where there is good performing schools and so on … Is it an issue for the Department? Do you get lots of queries of that sort? 575

Prof. Barr: No. The Minister: I have to say no we do not, Mr Speaker. No, it has never been an issue,

certainly in my three and a half years in the Department. I do not think we get too many through 580

the officers. Prof. Barr: No. I think we have had, in the almost three years I have been doing this role, one

parent who came in and wanted a very detailed explanation from the then secondary adviser, Paul Craine. They came in and spent a couple of hours and wanted to know about how the 585

numbers worked, etc. and we were happy to facilitate that.


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In terms of Members of Tynwald, we have always had an open invitation for any Member of Tynwald who wants to come in and look at those results. We are happy to explain them. I think it is the explanation and the context behind them that is important, because the raw numbers can often lead people into places that are misleading. 590

What I would say is that the Department’s GCSE results have improved 2% year on year for the last four years, and I think just to say to the Committee I would like to place on record my thanks to the teachers and schools for having done that. I think they have done a fantastic job at a time when there has also been significant curriculum reform and financial pressure.

595

The Chairman: Would you like to …? Q116. Mr Boot: Yes, going back to the point that you made, Mr Chairman, about meeting the

needs of our employers for the future – in fact, we had a presentation in DED today about just that matter. As I see it, the heads at secondary level have a fairly autonomous way of dealing 600

with the curriculum they teach to. There is no centralised control, am I …? Now, does the Department issue any guidance or do they talk to DED and employers about what they need in terms of employees for the future; their qualification, vocational or academic? Is there any centralised link?

605

The Minister: As I said earlier, we have a very good relationship, through DED, with industry, whether it be through engineering, through e-gaming, IT and Chamber of Commerce. So we have very good relationships and we very much have our finger on the pulse, between us and DED, as to what is perceived as is out there.

Obviously, we cannot change anything at the drop of a hat. As Prof. Barr said, we like to 610

produce well-rounded children that are fit for the future and can adapt easily and quickly and are willing and capable to learn.

Q117. Mr Boot: But the point I am coming to is, if the heads are autonomous and academic

qualifications seem to be more aspirational than perhaps vocational-type qualifications that may 615

well assist in some sectors – and construction and retail are two of my sectors – and they seem to be perceived as not … They are last choice for some schools in terms of career projection.

Prof. Barr: What I would say is there has always been a perception and that is not necessarily

the fault of schools. Parents have great influence on children and young people as well and on 620

their choice of careers. The University College Isle of Man at one point was styled as ‘the little tech on the hill’.

The reality is that we have been on a journey over the last decade to show people just how important the skills and the educational elements are within that institution. We have also through time … The head teachers’ attitudes, I think, have changed – and we have certainly, 625

strategically, where we have had the opportunity when we make appointments … One of the key criteria we look at now is whether the head teacher is well aware of the importance of vocational education, of special needs education, and that the gold standard is not necessarily five As at A-level and a law degree from Cambridge. That is important and we need such people, but actually we need a range of people with a range of skills and they all ought to be equally 630

valued. The Department actually takes quite a dim view of anybody within the Department who has a different view from that.

Q118. Mr Boot: What I am trying to say is though, at the end of the day, if heads basically

determine their own curriculum and they do not get any direction from your Department, if you 635

are liaising with DED and you are aware, do you issue them any guidance?


__________________________________________________________________ 42 SAPRC-EC/15-16

Prof. Barr: What happens is the DED should come through to the Department. There is a Department corporate plan which is approved by the Minister each year, with educational goals and targets within it, which includes vocational education. 640

I have to say, for example, University College Isle of Man would liaise very closely with DED and indeed with Treasury and Cabinet Office on the skill sets needed, and actually makes annual adjustments to its course offer and the number of students who are allowed onto courses based upon projected economic need.

Within the schools, we have extensive Junior Achievement involvement in our schools in 645

terms of employability. They are in all of our primary schools now, as well as in all of the high schools. We encourage employers to engage proactively with our schools. I think that is where we are with that.

In terms of Economic Development, increasingly we have meetings involving Chris Corlett, Jane Jelski, myself and others, and how we work together. There is a tension between Economic 650

Development and Education because obviously in many cases Economic Development are solely focused on particular skills for particular industries. That is not necessarily the goal of Education which, as the Minister has already said, is about producing individuals who have a broad range of skills, who are going to have to try and navigate through the next 40 or 50 years of employment. There is always going to be that little bit of friction between Economic 655

Development and Education on that basis. The Minister: There are certainly groups that meet between Education, Economic

Development and the heads of the College and the secondary heads. So any information like you are talking about, I believe, should be getting out and round there very quickly anyway. 660

Q119. Mr Boot: I think where we were coming from this morning is that we want to grow our

workforce and we want to retain our young people on Island, so we need to equip them with skills that are appropriate to the jobs that are either available or going to be available in the future. That is why I think there needs to be some joined-up thinking here. 665

The Minister: Just echoing what Prof. Barr just said, but also backing what I said earlier about

Tynwald’s investment in education over the last years through the training areas up at the College, whether it be engineering or through the building, it has been absolutely phenomenal. I welcome anybody to get in touch with myself or Prof. Barr if you want to have a look at the 670

facilities that are now available. We would be more than happy to show you round those. They are second to none within UK, Europe, I would suggest.

Q120. The Speaker: We might well take you up on – 675

The Chairman: Yes. We went to the prison recently so that would be interesting. The Speaker: A look at the College would be quite interesting. The Chairman: Very interesting. 680

The Minister: I am happy to do that. Q121. The Chairman: Can I preamble this next one by declaring an interest that my daughter

and son-in-law both work at this particular educational establishment. 685

There was an announcement in the Budget about Castle Rushen High School. What exactly is being done and how long will it take? And I have not been lobbied by either of them to ask that question! (Laughter)


__________________________________________________________________ 43 SAPRC-EC/15-16

The Minister: How long it will take, Chairman, with regard to building a new school at Castle 690

Rushen High School? We are not too sure yet. Certainly we were very happy to see, this year, £50,000 go in for design fees to start the ball rolling down there. We will be trying to get that moved on as soon as possible.

We are very aware, as are the staff down there, about the condition of the school. I would have to say, at the moment, if I was to place a bet on it, I would say five to seven years before 695

that is completed – seven at the outside, I would hope. I would like to think we could do it quicker than that, but we are well aware that it is needed and will be the next major capital scheme within the Department.

Prof. Barr: It is something which is absolutely essential. We can demonstrate quite clearly 700

that Castle Rushen has had less infrastructure spend than any other high school on the Island over the last five, six, seven years and clearly this is something that we need to now address. Hopefully, as the Minister says, it will be a five-year project. It would be nice if it could be done even quicker than that. We are only at the design phase. We also have find what will be Castle Rushen’s uniqueness. We have a farm in Ramsey; we have some wonderful drama and 705

performing arts facilities at Ballakermeen. So what would we suggest at Castle Rushen? And funnily enough we were talking to David Hester yesterday about that in terms of engineering and Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) subjects and in terms of other capital projects beyond that.

We are also planning a new STEM block at QEII. 710

The Chairman: Good. Q122. Mr Boot: What is the timescale on that? 715

The Minister: Again, that will be hopefully within the next three to four years. It is early days on that yet but we are being heavily lobbied by the head at QEII, every time we go to visit.

But if you want to have a visit, we will happily show you round if you have not already been there. That is probably the most antiquated part of the school now and needs updating very soon. 720

Q123. Mr Boot: I recently visited. The Minister: Yes, well you know what I am talking about. 725

Mr Boot: That is why I asked the question. Prof. Barr: We have acquired the land actually to make sure we have got the capacity to

make the building happen. That has already happened. Again, it is something that we wish to bring forward. 730

Those will be the two major high school projects over the next, I would say, three to five years.

Q124. The Chairman: In terms of your capital programme, anything else that features of any

significance? 735

The Minister: Those are the main two, I would suggest. There are always ongoing ones; most

of them will come in under the minor capital schemes, I would suggest, at the moment. I cannot think, off the top of my head, of any others.

740

Prof. Barr: The completion of Henry Bloom Noble, obviously.


__________________________________________________________________ 44 SAPRC-EC/15-16

The Minister: We just spoke about … Prof. Barr: Then we have what we might do about St Thomas’, which is the other Victorian

school that is really not … That is definitely a school that has done more than its fair share as far 745

as Government expenditure. So we would like to see if we could find a solution to that in terms of ensuring that school is brought into the 21st century from the 19th century.

Q125. The Chairman: Okay. How about rural primary schools or other primary schools: any plans to close any of them? 750

The Minister: Certainly not to close them, Chairman! As you will know and we have discussed, the bringing together of Fairfield and Ballacloan

under the Henry Bloom Noble – that would be the only way I would foresee closing any other schools. It would be the joining of, if we were to produce a new school somewhere to take in 755

two schools, but there is certainly no envisaging within the Department to close any schools for any financial reasons or whatever at this time.

Prof. Barr: I think I would add to what the Minister is saying in the sense that Government, as

far as I am aware, still has an aspiration to grow the population to 100,000, but Government 760

cannot tell me where those additional 15,000 might live. Until we have something that is definitive in that regard, then I think it would be unwise to close existing schools on that basis.

I think over and beyond that the problem is, if you close a school … Supposing you close Ballaugh Primary School, all that would happen is the children would have to be sent to Michael or they would have to be sent up to Sulby. Those schools would then be at or above capacity 765

and then we would have to enter the situation of having to build additional infrastructure. The school then has a bigger footprint, so therefore the utility costs are higher; the school roll goes up, therefore, you have more senior management posts in the school and you have to then pay the head teacher more money.

So actually, although people look at a budget line and say, ‘Oh, you close that school and you 770

yield the following savings’, in reality the portion of savings is quite a small percentage in some of those cases, and you are certainly then in a position where you might also have to have additional capital spend.

The Department did model all of this about a year and a half ago. If Government was serious about this, then you would have to close all single-form-entry schools on Island, have dual-entry 775

schools, and that in essence could wipe out: Arbory, Ballasalla, Dhoon, Andreas, Juby, Foxdale. There are a significant number of schools and I think it is the judgment of the Department that there is no political or community will to go in that direction.

Q126. The Chairman: You nearly made Mr Speaker choke on his water! (Laughter) 780

No, I had heard a rumour some time ago – and you know what these rumours are – about Scoill Phurt le Moirrey, for example; that the Department was looking at that. But there was nothing in that?

The Minister: Absolutely not, Chairman. 785

The Chairman: Good. Okay, anything you would like to …? Q127. The Speaker: Recruitment and retention of staff and how you are dealing with teacher 790

shortages. What is the biggest problematic subject area for you at the moment?


__________________________________________________________________ 45 SAPRC-EC/15-16

Prof. Barr: The only area that we have no issues with are PE teachers. (Laughter) PE teachers: we do not have a problem in that area. The secondary heads tell me that actually they probably could do with teachers in every other subject area, in either one or other of the schools across 795

the Island. We are bringing forward proposals to try and counter the academy approach in England

where, of course, increasingly academies are setting their own rates of pay. They are able to produce signing-on bonuses and incentivise people by paying off student debt. The sort of archetypal story you get is – which apparently is true – of someone with a first in physics who 800

had all of their university debt paid off and was given a signing-on fee of £30,000 to join a high school in England.

We are not going to be going down that route, clearly, because we cannot afford that, but we need to find a way of perhaps encouraging local people who are doing PGCEs or Cert Eds … We are thinking about bursary schemes or possibly offering the opportunity that, if we pay for this, 805

such individuals would come back and give four or five years educational service to the Island. We are looking at a number of those options.

The other option, of course, is the pension option which we can do nothing about in the sense that, after five years, if you return to UK you do so as a new starter. That has always been a disincentive for people to come from the UK into teaching on Island. 810

The other issue for people at the beginning of their career is still the house prices. I certainly still think that, both for Health and Education, there is probably a case for a return to looking at key worker housing for people at the beginning of their career which was, I understand, a policy the Island did have some 20 years ago.

815

Q128. The Speaker: At one time, the Department was targeting, for teacher recruitment, specific parts of the UK that had comparable house prices so that there was not a problem.

Are you saying there is no shortage of science teachers? There used to be. Prof. Barr: No, no. PE, as in physical education. 820

The Speaker: Yes. The Minister: I think Prof. Barr said the only area we do not have any issues is PE. 825

The Speaker: Oh, I see. Prof. Barr: Physical education is the only one where – The Speaker: I misheard you, sorry. 830

Prof. Barr: If you talk to the five secondary heads, the only thing they say is, ‘We are okay at

the moment for PE teachers, but we can take pretty much anything else.’ Q129. The Speaker: A significant difference! Yes. 835

Induction of teachers and the Manx curriculum: they are statutorily obliged to deliver history, language and culture? How do you do that across the subjects when you are relying on UK and external teachers? How do you ensure that they have an understanding of Manx culture and history?

840

Prof. Barr: We do not really do anything formal in terms of an induction with that in mind when new teachers join the Department. That is an interesting idea in terms of what we might do.


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Q130. The Speaker: It used to be that teachers had a programme which included a visit to a 845

Tynwald sitting. They were given an introductory talk about Manx history. Prof. Barr: I certainly think that – Q131. The Speaker: That has been long-gone, has it? 850

Prof. Barr: Yes, that is not something I have ever been aware of, that we have done in my

time at the Department. I think it is an interesting idea. Q132. The Speaker: I think that is something that could be looked at; it is not terribly 855

expensive to deliver. You get your incoming batch of teachers in the Autumn who sit through a Tynwald session for a morning and see if they return. (Laughter)

The Chairman: I thought we were trying to keep them! 860

The Minister: I am glad you said that, Chairman. The Clerk: There is plenty of room in the public gallery! The Minister: It is certainly something, Mr Speaker, we are happy to look at. Certainly in my 865

time in the Department I have never known that, so it is obviously something that was there but is not there anymore.

The Speaker: It was obviously four Education Ministers ago, when I was young. 870

Q133. The Chairman: But you have engaged Jo Callister, so you have got a good enthusiast in terms of the Manx?

Prof. Barr: We do and she does some excellent work with our primary colleagues, and I think

there is some excellent embedded work done in our primary schools on local history, culture – 875

Q134. The Chairman: Much more than is recognised, I think. Prof. Barr: Yes there is a lot more that goes on than people think, in music and art and history

and folktales. 880

Q135. The Chairman: I think we are about at the end. Anything else you have? The Speaker: No, that is fine. 885

Mr Boot: Nothing else, sir. Q136. The Chairman: Then, can I thank you very much for coming along and so helpfully

answering all our questions. 890

I formally say that the Committee will now sit in private. Thank you very much. The Minister: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I just say, we will get back in touch with you with

regard to a visit to the College and any other facilities you would like to see. 895

The Chairman: Yes, that would be welcome.


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The Minister: I will happily do that for you. Thank you. The Speaker: Excellent. Thank you. 900

The Chairman: Thank you.

The Committee sat in private at 4.43 p.m.

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