ny b9 farmer misc- wh 2 of 3 fdr- 5-21-03 larry king-cnn interview of cheney 465

8/14/2019 NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 2 of 3 Fdr- 5-21-03 Larry King-CNN Interview of Cheney 465

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Q What do -- when you said the other day, they willstrike again -- not if they will --

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it's just a matter of time.Q What do people do with that information? What do we

do, knowing that? Do we walk down the street backwards and lookbehind us? What do you do?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Be vigilant, you know, but be sensitiveto the possibility. Obviously, some parts of the country are farmore likely targets than other. Be aware of the alert system whenwe do put out alerts. Those are the ones, obviously, that youwant to pay attention to.

And in the end, what we have to do is go eliminate theterrorists. I mean, we can play defense all day long and doeverything we can to protect ourselves from another attack. Butin the end, in the final analysis, sooner or later somebody'slikely to get through. We've seen the Israeli experience, forexample --

Q If you just play defense, no one's going to score.THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's right. And what you have to do

is also go on offense. We've got to go eliminate the terrorists.And that obviously is a major part of the effort that's underwaynow. But it takes time.

Q What about those who say you're doing all this nowbecause of the criticism of the memo not paid attention topreviously? ... _

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, in this work, Larry, you're damnedif you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. The fact is, thereis reason to believe that the threat level has increased somewhat.We see more noise in the system, more reporting that leads us tobe cautious here. We haven't changed our practices at all interms of when we decide to go public and to caution people --

Q No change at all?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No change. There's been no Q So this would have happened had nothing happened?THE VICE PRESIDENT: If nothing had happened, if there had

not been the totally irresponsible charges last week, that

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3 -wouldn't have affected any of this anyway.

Q You have come out against an independent investigationof all that. Today, Senator McCain came out in favor of one; sodid conservative George Will. What's wrong with independentpeople like George Shultz, Daniel Moynihan, and others, assuggested, I think, by Will, looking into it?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, there's going to be an independentinvestigation. It's already underway. It's being carried out bythe oversight committees in the House and Senate, the HouseIntelligence and Senate Intelligence Committees -- bipartisan, onechaired by a Democrat, Bob Graham from Florida, and one by aRepublican, Porter Goss. And we have already provided . over200,000 pages of documents to those committees. We've got -- 39members of Congress are being read in to these programs, andthey'll oversee this investigation. We've got 184 people thathave already been interviewed. That effort has been underway.

Our concern is that if we now lay another investigation ontop of that, we're just multiplying the potential sources of leaksand disclosures of information that we can't disclose. The key toour ability to defend ourselves and to take out the terroristslies on intelligence. And we're discussing such things as thePresident's Daily Brief; this is the most sensitive product, ifyou will, of the intelligence community. It comes from our mostsensitive and secret sources. If there are leaks from thatdocument, if it's disclosed to people that it shouldn't bedisclosed to, we will lose the capacity to defend ourselvesagainst future attacks.

Q And an --THE VICE PRESIDENT: So what we' e trying to do is make sure

that -- have a good investigation. We're for that. There are alot of lessons we'd like to learn as well, too. But there'salready a good one underway by the Congress, which has thestatutory and constitutional responsibility to do it. If we nowstart adding commissions, nobody's going to come back and shutdown this one. There's not going to be just one, there will beseveral, and we can't afford to have several.

Q Why, Mr. Vice President, have you been critical ofcritics? We've always had critics in America. Johnson wascriticized in Vietnam; Clinton was criticized in Bosnia; Rooseveltwas criticized over Pearl Harbor. What's wrong with voicing acriticism?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Criticism's fine, Larry. But when

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- 4 -members of Congress suggest that the President of the UnitedStates had foreknowledge of the attack on September llth, I thinkthat's outrageous. That's beyond the pale. Somebody needs to saythat ain't criticism; that's a gross, outrageous political attack,and it's totally uncalled for, unjustified. The facts don'tsupport it. And somebody needed to stand up and say that. And Ifeel very strongly about it.

I'm perfectly prepared to have a debate. We do that all thetime. But that kind of assault, implication that somehow we hadprior knowledge and didn't act on it, I think, is a despicablestatement.

Q Is there a problem vis-a-vis FBI, CIA, investigativecommunity? In other words, that they don't interlock, thechannels don't reach each other? That there's rivalries?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sure. There has been in the past,without question. I used to sit on the Intelligence Committee; wealways were frustrated by trying to get the FBI, that came beforeus for some of their functions, and the CIA, that came before usas well, to work together. They didn't do it very well. It hasbeen improved in recent years, but clearly not enough.

Since September llth, we do a much more aggressive job ofgetting them together. We start every morning in the Oval Office,the President and I sit down with the Director of the FBI and theDirector of the CIA. They have to come to report to us everymorning on what we've got out there by way of threats --

Q Together.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Together. And they're doing a much

better job of linking together than before. But partly here,before we can go out and sort of point the finger of blame and tryto indict somebody for malfeasance prior to September llth, theFBI is now being asked to do something it didn't used to do. Imean, they were set up as a law enforcement agency. They were theguys that went in after the crime and found out who did it.

Now we're asking them to perform a very different role, whichis to make sure the crime never occurs. Let's find the guys, theperpetrators who have not yet violated the law, and, working withour intelligence sources overseas, head off these attacks beforethey can occur. It's a whole different way of looking at theworld.

Q Was that agent in Arizona prophetic?

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- 5 -THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, I think he was.Q So, did that get overlooked, or was it too -- someone

said it would have been too cumbersome to do?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, it's -- first of all, there are

what, I think 56 field offices out there, thousands of agentswriting hundreds of reports in any week. So in that volume ofstuff that's being collected and generated and analyzed, to reachback now after "the fact and say, aha, this guy fingered MiddleEasterners and flight schools, you know, is after the fact.

We had a situation in the Gulf War. In the run-up justbefore Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and he had all his troops outthere, everybody said he'll never invade. All the experts in theregion, all the government leaders out there, they all said he'snever going to invade.

Well, he invaded. He took Kuwait. Afterwards, we found aguy down in the bowels of the DIA, the Defense IntelligenceAgency, who had written a memo saying he's going to invade. Butit didn't do you any good at the time, because how do you decideyou're going to go with the one guy who's saying he will wheneverybody else says he won't?

Q So you're in a no-win, in that sense?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, you've got to recognize what's

reasonable in terms of before-the-fact analysis and properconclusions and having the system, and what's Monday morningquarterbacking.

But it's also important to recognize there were problems.There's no question about it; I would be the last to argue thesystem worked perfectly. There's a lot we can do to improve, andwe need to know the answers to those questions the committees areasking. We're cooperating on that.

Q We'll be right back with Vice President Dick Cheneyafter this.

Q We're back with Vice President Cheney.Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein says she contacted your

office last July to urge a restructure of U.S. counter error smand homeland defense. According to her, "despite repeated effortsby myself and the staff, the White House didn't address my

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- 6 -request."

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I disagree with Dianne. She had aproposal; a lot of other people did, too. What was happening lastsummer was that we had a review underway, the President directedme to sit down and look at the reports, I think, of five differentcommissions that had studied this problem of how we organize forhomeland security. She had one proposal; there were a dozenproposals, probably, all together, when you take all thecongressional ideas as well, too.

She did contact my office; she talked with one of my staffpeople, who informed her of the ongoing effort, that theadministration wasn't yet ready to take a position on how we oughtto organize for homeland defense; that we had an active effortunderway -- which we did, which is what led directly on September20th, when the President went up and made his speech, just ninedays after the attack, to the appointment of Governor Ridge ashead of Homeland Security, and the subsequent operations that aretaking place. That all came out of that earlier work.

We appreciated having her suggestion, but she wasn't the onlyone with ideas about organizing to deal with that problem.Q Governor Ridge's role -- should he be Cabinet-level?THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's a debate that will continue to

rage. His role right now is as the Homeland Security Advisor tothe President. As an advisor, he should not be confirmed by theSenate. He's like Condi Rice, the National Security Advisor. ThePresident needs to have some people around him .that reportdirectly to him and don't go to Congress.

Q Do advisors have clout?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. They've got access to the

President, and that's the ultimate clout in this town.Q On the debate, where do you stand?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think we've got it organized

about right for Tom Ridge at present. We are looking at otheroptions and possibilities. We've got a major effort underway,Tom's doing a review of all of this. We could conceivably end upwith everything from a Cabinet level department, a new agency, anagency in the Executive Office of the President, or an arrangementsimilar to what we have now. But everything's on the table atthis point.

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- 7 -Q Security problems are not going to go away, are they?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Absolutely not. This will be with us a

long time.Q On other fronts -- the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Where

are we?THE VICE PRESIDENT: It continues. A lot of speculation

about where he is, or maybe he's dead, buried in one of thosetunnels or caves in Afghanistan. We haven't heard anything fromhim in some considerable period of time now.

Q That tape recently was not recent?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I haven't seen the recent one, but allof the ones that have come out in the last few months are all of

the kind that were probably recorded before, say, December.Q The President's in Europe.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.Q Where there's a lot of angry people. What's this trip

going to do?/ THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's a very important trip. It's the

sort of the culmination, now, of a year and a half's work with theRussians. He has developed a very good relationship, he andPresident Putin, and they're going to sign an agreement -- i t _ l lbe a treaty, in effect that will further limit offensivenuclear arms, as well as do a number of other things.

Our relationship with Russia, I think, is probably in bettershape than it's ever been, certainly in my lifetime. And therewill also be work done to give Russia a new role at NATO. _Not aveto by any means, but to give them an active participation in theNATO alliance, which will make it easier this year, later tnisyear, to expand NATO membership to some of those Eastern Europeancountries that used to be part of the old Soviet Union.

We're tying together, if you will, Russia into Europe andinto the West. And it's good for Russia, it's good for the UnitedStates. A very significant trip in that regard.

Q What do you make of the protests?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Protests are protests. I mean, that's a

strength of our democracy, is people can take to the streets and

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\ , d i s a g r e e , d e m o n s t r at e . As long as they're peaceful, Ithink it's a sign of a healthy society.

Q Do you get nervous or have anxiety when the Presidentis away?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I really don't. It's Q You don't think about it?THE VICE PRESIDENT: No you're aware of it, of course. We

consciously avoid a situation in which we're both gone from thecountry out of the country at the same time. But the governmentcontinues to function. He and I are in touch frequently when,he'straveling or I'm traveling. We've got this secure videoconferencesystem so we can have a meeting of the National Security Councilif that's required. He's got Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Andy Cardare all with him. I'm back here, Don Rumsfeld's here, GeorgeTenet's here.

So the government continues to function.Q But you don't personally?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Personally?\ Q Fear, you know, something could happen, and --THE VICE PRESIDENT: No. I don't you can't think about

that. We've got jobs to do, and he's doing his job and I'm_doingmine' And I think it's working reasonably well. And traveling tothe far corners of the globe, that's something you've got to do inthe modern presidency. ... -

Q The question of Cuba. China doesn't have elections andhas political prisoners. How is that different? Why do we talkto them and not to the other?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the sense I have is thatChina has made significant progress. If you go back to whereChina was 25 or 30 years ago, it was a very authoritarian,totalitarian state. Outsiders weren't welcome; totally isolatedfrom the outside world. Under Deng Xiaoping and subsequent tothat time, there's been a major opening up. Americans have beeninvited in.

It's not perfect by any means. They don't run their societythe way we would like. They still have a Communist Party that'sstill in charge. They don't have free elections. So we talk to

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- 9 -them about those issues. But if you were to look at China today,you'd have to say this is a nation that has moved fairlydramatically to open up.

You don't see any of that in Cuba. Cuba is, you know, whereit was in 1959 when Fidel took over. Cuba also, of course, at onetime Fidel Castro, back during the Cold War, did a lot to try tosubvert other regimes in the hemisphere -- Che Guevara was killedtrying to mount a revolution in Bolivia. They had a lot to dowith the turmoil and operations in Central America.

Q So there's a distinct difference to you?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Distinct difference -- tried to .base

missiles in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in '62.Q Two other quick things. Any light at the end of the

Mideast tunnel?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Boy, that's a risky prediction, given

that part of the world and that problem. But we are makingprogress. Things are better now than they were a couple of monthsago.

The Saudis have stepped up, and I think in an important andresponsible fashion. We've got the Egyptians and the Jordanians,they're working with the Saudis. There's widespread agreement nowthat we need reform on the Palestinian side; even Arafat hasspoken to that.

And the people who've suffered more than anybody else throughthis whole enterprise, obviously, I think, are probably thePalestinian people. And the ultimate hope of a peacefulresolution of the conflict and a Palestinian state that is not athreat to Israel is going to be difficult to achieve. But we needto keep working at it.

Q And finally, India-Pakistan. Worried?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Two nations Q -- go nuclear?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Two nations, both nuclear-armed, sort ofpoised across the border there. A history of conflict_ and

warfare. Ongoing tensions over Kashmir. And we're very activelyengaged in trying to keep the lid on there. Secretary Powell hasspent a lot of time on it; we had a meeting on it just this week.

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- 10 -So it's an important part of the world, a dangerous part of

the world.Q Thank you, Dick.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks, Larry. Nice to see you.Q Good seeing you. Healthy?THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, sir.Q We were in the same club. Vice President Dick Cheney.

Back with more Larry King Live after this.END 11:20 A.M. EDT

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ny b9 farmer misc- wh 2 of 3 fdr- 5-21-03 larry king-cnn interview of cheney 465

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