norman foster ograničenja su poticaj are the spur invencije of … · 2020. 12. 2. · shanghai...

oris, broj 103, godina 2017.10 oris, number 103, year 2017

Interviewed in London on 22 September 2016

¶ Norman Foster entered the international architectural scene with his realization of the project of Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, in 1985, at the latest, and has remained active to the present day as one of its most relevant participants. The innovativeness of this project in relation to structural expression, spatial organization and progressive technology are features that constantly point to the architect’s diverse and rich practice. Foster, however, does not see the technol-ogy as the goal of his work, but as a means of optimizing the conditions and the way of life of recipients of his architecture. His work encompasses a wide spectrum – from the design of utilitarian items to public spaces and large-scale infra-structure projects. Norman Foster has developed a universal method of processing architectural topics, appropriate for our time, but based on the Vitruvian principles – firmitas, utilitas, venustas – enriched by the aspects of sustainability and responsibility towards the social reality.

Razgovarali u Londonu 22. rujna 2016.

¶ Najkasnije realizacijom projekta Hong Kong i Shanghai banke, 1985. godine, Norman Foster je stupio na među-narodnu arhitektonsku scenu da bi, kao jedan od njezinih najrelevantnijih sudionika, ostao aktivan do danas. Inova-tivnost tog projekta u odnosu na konstruktivnu ekspresiju, prostornu organizaciju i progresivnu tehnologiju svojstva su koja konstantno označavaju raznoliku i bogatu arhitektovu praksu. Međutim, Foster tehnologiju ne vidi kao cilj svog rada, već kao sredstvo optimiranja uvjeta i načina života recipijenata njegove arhitekture. Njegov rad obuhvaća široku skalu – od dizajna uporabnih predmeta do javnih prostora i infrastrukturnih projekata velikog mjerila. Nor-man Foster razvio je univerzalni način procesuiranja arhi-tektonskih tema primjeren našem vremenu, no utemeljen na vitruvijanskim principima – firmitas, utilitas, venustas

– obogaćenima aspektima održivosti i odgovornim stavom prema društvenoj realnosti.

Vera Grimmer Mira Stanić

razgovaraleinterviewed by

norman foster

Constraints are the Spur of Invention

norman foster

Ograničenja su poticaj invencije

fotografije photographs by

portreti portraits

Jean-Philippe Arles / Reuters / Corbis (jpa), Norman Foster (nf), Foster + Partners (fp), Gregory Gibbon / Foster + Partners (gg), Dennis Gilbert / VIEW (dg), James Morris (jm), Tim Street-Porter (tsp), Nigel Young / Foster + Partners (ny), Nigel Young and The Norman Foster Foundation (nff), Ma Wenxiao / Sino (mw)Danko Stjepanović

NORMAN FOSTER, Intervju 11NORMAN FOSTER, Interview


oris — Povjesničar arhitekture William J. R. Curtis postavio je Vašu poziciju u povijesti kasnog modernizma negdje između Rogersa i Piana. On kaže o Vašem radu: Njegove ideje su uko-rijenjene u konstrukciji, činjenicama i metaforama, a potom priroda i ljudski duh čine fuziju koja vodi u novu vrstu stvaranja. Slažete li se s takvim izjavama? ¶ norman foster — Ne, ali to je u redu, poštujem ih – svatko ima svoje mišljenje.

oris — The architecture historian William J. R. Curtis put your position in the history of late modernism somewhere between Rogers and Piano. He says about your work: His ideas are rooted in structure, facts, and metaphors. And then, the nature and human spirit make a fusion which leads into a new kind of creation. Would you agree with such defini-tions? ¶ norman foster — No, but that is all right, I respect


Kao arhitekt, od samoga početka osjećao sam društveni idealizam – vjerovanje da arhitektura ima moć rušenja barijera, poboljšanja kvalitete života As an architect I, from the beginning, had a social idealism – a belief that architecture has the power to break down barriers, to improve the quality of life

Kao arhitekt, od samoga početka osjećao sam društveni ide-alizam – vjerovanje da je kod arhitekture riječ o stvaranju pozitivne promjene, da ima moć rušenja barijera, poboljšanja kvalitete života. To je snažan pokretač: potrebe, ljudsko sta-nje, stvari koje možete mjeriti, stvari koje ne možete mjeriti, kao što je radno mjesto na kojem možete uživati u pogledu i biti u dodiru s prirodom, ali koje intuitivno prepoznajete kao

them – everybody has an opinion. As an architect I, from the beginning, had a social idealism – a belief that architecture is about making a difference, that it has the power to break down barriers, to improve the quality of life. That is a power-ful generator – the needs, the human condition, the things that you can measure, the things that you cannot measure, such as having a workplace where you can enjoy the view and have the contact with nature, but which you intuitively pursue as beauty or another poetic dimension. Very recently, last October, the Harvard School of Public Health published findings which quantified those and said: those who have a workplace which has all the benefits – natural ventilation, changing climate and so on are seen to be more productive. Finally, you have the scientific evidence; whether you need it or not is another matter. And then the way in which a build-ing might express itself, whether it expresses the structure or supresses it under a skin, those are the kind of explora-tions an architect goes over backwards and forwards. A critic like Luis Fernández-Galiano would condense our work as


ljepotu ili drugu poetsku dimenziju. Nedavno, prošlog listo-pada, Harvardov Fakultet javnog zdravstva objavio je rezultate koji kvantificiraju takve pojave i utvrdio: oni koji imaju radno mjesto sa svim prednostima, prirodnom ventilacijom, izmje-nom klime i tako dalje, smatraju se produktivnijima. Konačno imate znanstvene dokaze; je li vam to potrebno ili nije, druga je stvar. Zatim, način na koji bi se zgrada mogla izraziti, bilo da izražava konstrukciju ili je suzbija ispod plašta – to je vrsta istraživanja na koje se arhitekt neprestano vraća. Kritičar kao što je Luis Fernández-Galiano sažeo bi naš rad u kožu i kosti i pobrinuo se da to i pokaže. Možete uzeti dva najranija projekta, projekt za Olsen gdje je refleksija izražena, gotovo poput vrlo lijepog ogledala s neprimjetnim grafičkim linijama na spojevima, koji je izveden dvije ili tri godine nakon projekta

skin and bones and see to demonstrate it. You could take the very first two projects, the project for Olsen which is highly reflected, almost like a very beautiful mirror with the most minimal graphic lines of junctions, separated by two or three years from Reliance which was the expression of structure. If you then go fifty years later in time and you look at two projects which I am very close to – Bloomberg – it is bones, it is the stone frame, and it is the bronze fins, the breathing building. If you go to Apple in Cupertino, it is skin. And yet, they are both about the social dimension and have a sense of place, they are about public space. Bloomberg is interrupted by an arcade so the public can penetrate it. It is dissolving the boundaries between public and private in the same way that Olsen and Reliance were dissolving the boundaries between


Reliance koji je bio izraz konstrukcije. Ako zatim pogledate dva projekta osmišljena pedeset godina kasnije koji su mi jako bliski – Bloomberg – to su kosti, to je kameni skelet, to su brončane peraje, zgrada koja diše. Apple Campus u Cuper-tinu, s druge strane, jest koža. Pa ipak, kod obje građevine ključna je društvena dimenzija i osjećaj za mjesto; radi se o javnom prostoru. Bloomberg je prekinut arkadom, tako da je dostupan za javnost. Ukida granice između javnog i privatnog na isti način na koji su Olsen i Reliance ukidali granice između proizvodnih i uredskih radnika i snažno podizali standarde na radnom mjestu u industriji. Ako pogledate zgrade istra-živačkih odjela na Sveučilištu Stanford, ponovno ćete uočiti ukidanje granica između različitih disciplina, s ciljem da će se postići prijelomna medicinska otkrića. Riječ je o društvenim prostorima, socijalnoj dimenziji. To su teme koje se ponavljaju u mnogim projektima. ¶ S vremena na vrijeme pronalazimo nova rješenja. Iznova pronalazimo tip zgrade. Banka u Hong Kongu propitivala je – po prvi puta u povijesti visokogradnje, nebodera – ideju središnje jezgre. Ona je premješta, stavlja na jednu stranu i to omogućuje zgradi da bude učinkovitija i evolucijski iznjedri potpuno novi korpus visokih zgrada. Hong Kong je veliki pomak; drugi projekti nisu revolucionarni, oni su evolucijski, oni grade na tom modelu. Nisam čuo ni jednu od ovih tendencija u opisu koji ste citirali.oris — Naravno, to je poetsko i vrlo osobno gledište. Željela bih ukazati na jedan Vaš vrlo rani rad, sjedište tvrtke Willis Faber, vrlo progresivan rad u mnogim aspektima, koji je bio iznimno utjecajan. Već ste spomenuli neke od tih točaka – društvenu dimenziju, pogodnosti za ljude koji tamo rade koje su poboljšale njihov svakodnevni život. No to je samo jedan od, za ta vremena, vrlo inovativnih aspekata, kao što su zakrivljena ovješena fasada sa zrcalnim staklom, središnja praznina kao komunikacijski prostor i fluidni kontinuirani radni prostori za koje se tada koristio njemački naziv Bürolandschaft. ¶ nor-man foster — To je sada još pomnije razvijeno u Bloom-bergu, a tamošnja velika inovacija je mogućnost da se napravi zgrada koja diše pomoću prirodne ventilacije, u vrlo dubokom prostoru. To je s naše strane bilo ogromno ulaganje u istraživa-nje; u skladištu nedaleko od našeg ureda, a koje je sada rastav-ljeno, kreirali smo eksperimentalnu platformu, vjerojatno oko četvrtine veličine ovog prostora, s testnim lutkama i mjeračima temperature. U različitim trenucima pojavljuju se različite razine inovacija unutar cijeloga niza kontinuiranih eksperimenata.oris — Mnoge od tih tema mogu se susresti u ranom razdo-blju Vašega formiranja kada ste razvili zanimanje za ono što će se kasnije nazivati Arhitektura bez arhitekata. Mislim na Vašu studiju vernakularnih građevina iz 1959. godine za koju

the blue-collar and the white-collar and were raising standards in the industrial workplace dramatically. If you go and see the research buildings in Stanford University, it is, again, about dis-solving the boundaries between different disciplines where the hope is you will achieve medical breakthroughs. It is about the social spaces, the social dimension. These are recurring themes over projects. ¶ From time to time, we reinvent. We reinvent a building type. The Hong Kong Bank questioned, for the first time in the history of the high-rise building, the skyscraper, the idea that you have a central core. It takes it out, puts it to one side and enables the building to do more and spawns

Reliance Controls, Swindon, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 1967.

Reliance Controls, Swindon, United Kingdom, 1967

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evolutionarily a whole new body of high-rise buildings. The big move is Hong Kong, the other ones are not revolutionary, they are evolutionary, they build on that model. I do not hear any of these tendencies in the description you quoted.oris — Of course, it is a poetic and a very personal view. I would like to point out to a very early work of yours – the Wil-lis Faber Headquarters, a very progressive work in many ways, which was widely influential. You already mentioned one of these points – the social dimension. There are facilities for the people working there which improved their everyday life. But this is just one of, for that time very innovative aspects, like the curved curtain wall with mirrored glass, the central void as a communication area and the fluid continuous working spaces which then had the German name of Bürolandschaft. ¶ nor-man foster — Which has now been developed much further in Bloomberg, and the big innovation there is the ability to

Napredak ljudskog društva priča je o tehnologiji i kvaliteti života koja nikada u povijesti društva nije bila veća nego što je u ovom trenutku The progress of human society is the story of technology and the quality of life which has never been higher in the history of society than it is now

Sjedište tvrtke Bloomberg, London,

Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 2010. – 2017., 3d

vizualizacije

Bloomberg Headquarters, London,

United Kingdom, 2010 – 2017, 3d

visualizations

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ste primili srebrnu medalju riba-e. Vrsta utjelovljene inteligen-cije koju su imale te zgrade bez autora čini se stalnom temom, bilo u jednom od Vaših najnovijih projekata – Droneportu, bilo u Vinariji Margaux. Biste li se s time složili? ¶ norman foster — Da, i Maggie’s Center također. Trenutno sastav-ljam govor, prilično neuobičajen govor koji ću održati u Bolo-gni za Francesca Dal Coa. Bit će duži nego obično pa sam ga napravio mnogo više autobiografskim, ali vizualno sam samo slijedio neke od ideja i razmišljanja koja vjerojatno počinju s prvom zgradom u kojoj sam radio, koja se mogla smatrati arhitekturom, Gradskom vijećnicom u Manchesteru, visokoj viktorijanskoj gotici Alfreda Waterhousea. To je bila jedna vrsta utjecaja. Mogli bismo to nazvati vraćanjem i mogli bismo to nazvati kostima. Druga vrsta zgrada koje su me jako zanimale u središtu Manchestera bile su arkade od lijevanog željeza. Drugi interes bio je, kao što kažete, vernakularno. Potom su tu bili

make a breathing building using natural ventilation, in a very deep space. That was a huge research investment on our part where we created, in a warehouse not too far from oue offices, since dismantled, a test bed, probably about the quarter of the size of this space here, with test dummies and temperature monitors. At different points in time, different levels of inno-vation occur within a whole series of continuous experiments.oris — Many of these topics can be tracked back to an early phase in your formation, when you developed an interest for what will later be called Architecture Without Architects. I am referring to your study of vernacular buildings from 1959, for which you received the riba Silver Award. The kind of embod-ied intelligence those unauthored buildings had seems to be a continuous topic – be it in one of your latest projects – the Droneport or the Margaux Winery. Would you agree with that? ¶ norman foster — Yes, and Maggie’s Centre


Sjedište Hongkong and Shanghai banke,

Hong Kong, Kina 1979. – 1986.

Hongkong and Shanghai Bank Headquarters,

Hong Kong, China 1979 – 1986

(ny)


gradski prostori koje sam istraživao kao student. Nedavno sam iz prilično opskurne knjižnice u Manchesteru uspio spasiti pri-mjerak vlastita rada iz 1960. godine, u kojemu sam analizirao javne prostore od Sienne, Verone, Batha, Mayfaira do Oxforda, sveučilišta, unutarnjih dvorišta. Mislim da puno ideja koje sam istraživao i koje još uvijek istražujem seže u moje rane student-ske korijene, prije nego što sam uopće bio svjestan arhitekton-ske profesije. To je bio tek interes, zanimanje za konstrukcije. Prebacio bih se na nešto što se zove Jodrell Bank, a to je bio radioteleskop u Cheshireu, koji je i danas još uvijek herojska građevina. Postoji više paralelnih niti i ne vidim sukob između Maggie’sa ili Margauxa, koji su sićušni, i monumentalnog vija-dukta poput Millaua, između Bloomberga u središtu Londona, i kampusa Applea i projektiranja površine od 170 jutara. Kod svih njih riječ je o arhitekturi, na isti način na koji ću nakon ovoga otići na kat i baviti se dizajnom namještaja ili posuđa. Za mene, sve je to dizajn jer ne vidim razliku između umjetnosti i dizajna. Automobil, skulptura, slika, arhitektura – za mene je to logični kontinuum.

also. I am putting together a talk at the moment, a rather unusual talk which I’ll be giving in Bologna for Francesco Dal Co. It will be longer than usual, so I have made it much more autobiographical, but visually, I have just traced some of the ideas and thinking probably starting from the first building that I worked in, which could be considered as architecture – the Manchester Town Hall, a High Victorian Gothic by Alfred Waterhouse. That was one kind of influence. You could call that going back and you could call that the bones. The other kind of buildings that excited me in central Manchester were the cast iron arcades. The other interest was, as you say, the vernacular. Then, there were city spaces which I explored as a student. Recently I managed to retrieve, from a rather obscure library in Manchester, a copy of the work that I did in 1960, where I analysed public spaces from Sienna to Verona to Bath to Mayfair, Oxford, the universities, quadrangles. I think that a lot of the ideas which I explored and am still exploring go right back to early roots as a student, before I was even aware of the profession of architecture. It was just as an interest, an interest in structures. I would cycle out to something called the Jodrell Bank, which was a radio telescope in Cheshire, and it is still a heroic structure now. There are a number of parallel threads and I see no conflict between Maggie’s or Margaux which are tiny and a heroic viaduct like Millau, between Bloomberg in the middle of London, and Apple Campus and designing an area of 170 acres. They are all about architecture in the same way that, after this, I will be going upstairs and doing a design

Kampus Apple 2, Cupertino, Kalifornija, sad, u izgradnji, 3d vizualizacija

Apple Campus 2, Cupertino, California, usa, ongoing, 3d visualization

(fp)

(nf)


oris — Ako se vratimo na društveni aspekt Vašeg djela, onda moramo reći da osim tih velikih korporativnih projekata postoji i drugi dio Vašeg opusa koji je posvećen onima manje sretnima u društvu našega vremena. Takva je studija koju ste napravili za poboljšanje četvrti Dharavi u Mumbaiju ili pro-jekt Droneport za Afriku, koji ste prikazali na ovogodišnjem Venecijanskom bijenalu. Tu je velika empatija i razumijevanje za različite i specifične načine života. Istu empatiju možemo vidjeti u spomenutom Maggie’s Centeru koji ima određene veze sa skandinavskom humanističkom arhitekturom. ¶ nor-man foster — Nadam se da će fondacija na kojoj radimo, čije se sjedište nalazi u Madridu, moći dalje razvijati neke od tih projekata humanitarnog karaktera koje, iz kojega god razloga, arhitekti ne smatraju arhitekturom, no ja smatram da su vrlo važni jer je tu riječ o stvaranju pozitivne promjene. Možete koristiti tehnologiju da dovedete energiju udaljenoj zajednici, da preobrazite živote i donesete prosvjetljenje kroz pristup osvjetljenju i tako dalje. Sve su te stvari isprepletene. oris — Možda se može reći da Vaši radovi pokazuju optimi-stično vjerovanje u potencijal tehnologije. Možete li se složiti s mišljenjem da pripadate tehnološkom krilu modernizma, s prethodnicima poput Buckminstera Fullera ili Jeana Pro-uvéa? ¶ norman foster — Dokle god ste načisto s time

session on furniture, or tableware. For me, it is all design in the same way that I do not see a distinction between art and design. A car, sculpture, painting, architecture – for me, it is a seamless continuum.oris — If we go back to the social aspect of your work, then we must say that, aside from these large corporate projects, there is another part of your work which is dedicated to those who are less fortunate in the society of our time. Such is the study you have made for the improvement of the Dharavi quarter in Mumbai, or the Droneport project for Africa which you have shown at this year’s Venice Biennale. There is great empathy and understanding for different and specific ways of life. The same empathy can be seen in the mentioned Maggie’s Centre which has some relation to Scandinavian humanistic architecture. ¶ norman foster — My hope is that the foun-dation which we are working on, which is based in Madrid, will be able to develop further some of those humanitarian-type projects which, for whatever reason, architects don’t really consider as architecture, but I think of them as abso-lutely fundamental because they are about making a differ-ence. You can use technology to deliver power to a remote community, to transform lives and bring enlightenment through access to lighting and so on. All of those things are mixed up together.oris — One can perhaps say that your works show an opti-mistic belief in the potential of technology. Could you agree with an opinion that you belong to the technological wing of the Modern Movement, with predecessors like Buckminster Fuller or Jean Prouvé? ¶ norman foster — As long as you are very clear in your mind that the technology is a means to an end and is not an end in itself. And that, basically, the story of society is the story of technology, so when human beings come out of a cave, they create a building; whether it is an upturned boat or whether it is a boat to get from one place to the other – that is technology. There is, for me, a very disagreeable arrogance in the belief that technology is something of our time. It is outrageous because the progress of human society is the story of technology, and the quality of life, however critical we might be in terms of the dispossessed, has never been higher in the history of society than it is at the moment. All of that is the continuous story of technologi-cal progress. So the idea that technology is something that happened overnight in the lifetime of one or two critics and therefore we can hang it as a label on some more than others is a denial of reality.oris — We have touched upon Buckminster Fuller who was certainly one of your mentors and a colleague. ¶ norman

Na neki način, umjetnici uvijek predviđaju doba koje slijedi. Ako uzmete Brancusija ili Boccionijev aerodinamični lik, oni su predvidjeli streamline doba In a way, the artists always anticipate the age that follows. If you take Brancusi or the flowing figure of Boccioni, they anticipate the streamline age

Obnova trga Trafalgar, London, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 1996. – 2003.

Trafalgar Square Redevelopment, London, United Kingdom, 1996 – 2003

(ny)


da je tehnologija sredstvo za postizanje cilja, a ne cilj sam po sebi. U osnovi, priča o društvu je priča o tehnologiji, tako da kada ljudska bića izlaze iz pećine, ona stvaraju građevinu; bez obzira na to je li to prevrnut brod ili je to brod kao prijevozno sredstvo – to je tehnologija. Prema mome mišljenju, postoji vrlo antipatična arogancija u uvjerenju da je tehnologija nešto iz našeg vremena. To je posve krivo jer je napredak ljudskog društva priča o tehnologiji, a kvaliteta života, koliko god bili svjesni nejednakosti, on nikada nije bila veća u povijesti druš-tva nego što je u ovom trenutku. Sve to je kontinuirana priča o tehnološkom napretku. Tako da je ideja da je tehnologija nešto što se dogodilo preko noći tijekom života jednog ili dva kritičara, pa je stoga možemo nadjenuti kao oznaku nekima više nego drugima, negiranje stvarnosti.oris — Dotakli smo se Buckminstera Fullera koji je zasi-gurno bio jedan od Vaših mentora i Vaš kolega. ¶ norman foster — Bio je vječiti optimist. Također je bio prva osoba koja je skrenula pozornost na krhkost planeta. On je bio

foster — He was an eternal optimist. He was also the first person to draw attention to the fragility of the planet. He was extraordinarily wise in that he saw the challenge of delivering more with less. Although he never articulated it with those words, those societies which consume more power have the greatest life expectancy, lowest infant mortality, the greatest freedom from political or sexual oppression, so there is a direct link between enlightenment and the consumption of power.oris — A few years ago, as certain homage, you recreated his legendary Dymaxion car. I think there are some very direct lessons that the Dymaxion offers, particularly in terms of per-formance. ¶ norman foster — It was a kind of homage to Bucky. I saw the rather sad example, the only surviving exam-ple, in the exhibition of Bucky’s work at Whitney, this sad sur-viving car with no windows and no interior, but nonetheless a very beautiful object and kind of utopian, or be it in some respects somewhat naïve, conceived with the American yacht designer Starling Burgess. I just thought that it would be great

Maggie’s Centre Manchester,

Manchester, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo,

2013. – 2016.

Maggie’s Centre Manchester,

Manchester, United Kingdom, 2013 – 2016

(ny)


iznimno mudar u smislu da mu je izazov bio učiniti više s manje sredstava. Iako to nikada nije izrazio tim riječima, ona druš-tva koja troše više energije imaju najveći životni vijek, najniže stope smrtnosti novorođenčadi, najveću slobodu od političke ili seksualne represije, tako da postoji izravna veza između prosvijećenosti i potrošnje energije.oris — Prije nekoliko godina, kao svojevrsni hommage, ponovno ste kreirali njegov legendarni automobil Dymaxion. Mislim da postoje neke vrlo izravne pouke koje Dymaxion nudi, osobito u pogledu izvedbe. ¶ norman foster — Bila je to neka vrsta hommagea Buckyju. Vidio sam prilično otužan pri-mjerak, jedini preživjeli, na izložbi o Buckyjevu djelu u muzeju Whitney; jedan otužni preživjeli automobil bez prozora i bez unutrašnjosti, ali ipak vrlo lijep predmet, ponešto utopijski, u nekim aspektima pomalo i naivan, osmišljen s američkim dizajnerom jahta Starlingom Burgessom. Jednostavno sam mislio da bi bilo sjajno da ga ponovno kreiramo i da ga učinimo Dymaxion automobilom broj 4, jer bi svi dijelovi bili istinski autentični – mogli bi se pronaći motor i šasija iz 1934., sustav za paljenje, upravljač, svi izvorni dijelovi i to bi bio istinski broj 4. Možda bi, da bi se to napravilo, bilo korisno imati automobil koji je bio u Whitneyju. Pa smo tako posudili taj auto i kao gestu ga obnovili, stavili mu prozore, uredili mu unutrašnjost

to recreate that and to make it the Dymaxion car number 4, because all the pieces would be truly authentic – you could get the engine from 1934, the chassis from 1934, you could get the ignition, the steering wheel, you could get all these original

Prostorni plan za Dharavi, Mumbai, Indija, 2008.

Dharavi Masterplan, Mumbai, India, 2008

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Droneport na 15. Venecijanskom bijenalu arhitekture, Venecija, Italija, 2016.

The Droneport at the 15th Venice Architecture Biennale, Venice, Italy, 2016

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i općenito ga vratili u život tako da je svatko od toga imao koristi. Bila je to neka vrsta maloga manifesta o važnosti veza između automobila, Buckyjeve vizije, dizajna i umjetnosti. Na neki način, umjetnici uvijek predviđaju doba koje slijedi. Ako uzmete Boccionijev aerodinamični lik ili ako uzmete Brancu-sija, oni su predvidjeli streamline doba.oris — Često spominjete važnost infrastrukturnih projekata. Dobar primjer bi zasigurno bio najviši most na svijetu, vija-dukt Millau, koji je vrlo bitan u svakodnevnome životu mnogih ljudi. ¶ norman foster — Kada uklonite peterosatne pro-metne zastoje sa svim pratećim zagađenjem okoliša, iznenada ustanovite da most ima vrlo jaku ekološku dimenziju. On je model održivosti, što je posljednja stvar koju ste ikada mogli očekivati od nečega što potiče cestovni promet. Vjerujem da je infrastruktura grada važnija od arhitekture, od pojedine zgrade. Dakle, ako me pitate što smatram najvažnijm radom

pieces and it would be a true number 4. Perhaps to do that, it would be helpful to have the car that was in the Whitney. So we borrowed that car and, as a gesture, we refurbished it, gave it windows, gave it an interior and generally brought it back to life so everybody has benefited from that. It was a kind of a mini manifesto about the importance of links between the automobile, Bucky’s vision, design, art. In a way, the artists always anticipate the age that follows. If you take the flow-ing figure of Boccioni or take Brancusi, they anticipate the streamline age.oris — You often mention the importance of infrastruc-tural projects. A good example would certainly be the high-est bridge in the world, the Millau Viaduct, which is very important for the everyday life of many people. ¶ norman foster — When you take out five-hour traffic jams with all the pollution that is involved, surprisingly, you find that it has a

(ny)

Château Margaux, Bordeaux, Francuska,

2009. – 2015.

Château Margaux, Bordeaux, France,

2009 – 2015


(nf)


koji smo napravili ovdje u Londonu, to su vjerojatno Trafalgar Square i Milenijski most. Netko bi rekao: Ali što je s Britanskim muzejom? Naravno, Britanski muzej je u mnogočemu znača-jan doprinos – on stvara urbani prostor, olakšava komunika-ciju, omogućava milijunima posjetitelja da u pojedinu galeriju nesmetano uđu, umjesto da čekaju u redu da bi iz jedne galerije prešli u drugu. No, u pogledu kvalitete života u Londonu, ove dvije infrastrukturne intervencije su nedvojbeno značajnije.

very strong ecological dimension. It is a model of sustainability, which is the last thing you could ever expect from something that encourages road transport. I believe the infrastructure of a city is more important than the architecture, the individual building. So if you asked me what I think is the most important work we have done here in London, it is probably the Trafal-gar Square and the Millennium Bridge. Somebody would say, but what about the British Museum. And of course, the British Museum is a significant contribution in all kinds of ways – it cre-ates an urban room, it eases the circulation, it enables the many millions of visitors to go to one gallery directly rather than to queue to get from one gallery to the other. But in terms of the quality of life in London, the two infrastructure interventions are arguably more significant. In that vein, I say that the work we have done in Marseille was also where we brought the life back to the waterfront and created a new café life. I think that the kind of span and range of interest, make the work wider than the rather narrow band that Curtis evokes. But in the end, that is only something that is going to be measured later, in the future.oris — Continuing on the relationship between infrastruc-ture and buildings – in one of the lectures which you recently gave, you used the term inhabited infrastructure. Could you expand on that? ¶ norman foster — There are certain types of buildings where, in the past, the dominant was engineering and the spectators or the participants were largely secondary. If you look at stadia, stadia have moved from the realm of being enclosure with seats added on, and they have become extraordinary manifestations of entertaining, of ceremonies,

Održivost ne može biti sredstvo opravdavanja neuspješnog dizajna; to je proturječje. Sve u konačnici mora biti objedinjeno Sustainability cannot be a way to justify a design failure; that is a contradiction. Everything, in the end, has to be integrated

Norman Fosterova replika automobila Dymaxion iz 1933.

(dizajnirao ga je Buckminster Fuller), 2010.

Norman Foster’s replica of the

1933 Dymaxion Car (designed by

Buckminster Fuller), 2010

(gg)


U skladu s tim mogu reći da smo u radu koji smo napravili u Marseilleu također vratili život natrag na obalu i stvorili novi kavanski život. Mislim da taj opseg i raspon interesa čine djelo širim od prilično uskog raspona koji priziva Curtis. Ali na kraju, to je nešto što će se mjeriti kasnije, u budućnosti.oris — Nastavno na odnos između infrastrukture i zgrada: u jednom od predavanja koje ste nedavno održali koristili ste pojam naseljena infrastruktura. Možete li to pojasniti? ¶ nor-man foster — Postoje određene vrste zgrada u kojima je u prošlosti dominantna bila tehnika, a gledatelji ili sudionici su uglavnom bili sporedni. Ako pogledate stadione, oni više nisu tek puki ograđen prostor s dodanim sjedalima, već su postali izvanredne manifestacije zabavljanja, ceremonija, rituala, događanja i nadilaze svoj izvorni infrastrukturni doseg stva-ranja velikog prostora bez krova nad nekom vrstom foruma. To je uistinu moj skraćeni način da kažem da je došlo do tran-sformacije infrastrukture.oris — Postoji još jedna zanimljiva tema koja pokazuje razno-likost Vašeg rada, a to je pojam zgrade kao opne i prostora kao

rituals, events, and transcended their original infrastructural scope of creating a big room, or a lack of roof, over a kind of forum. It is really my shorthand of saying that there has been a transformation of infrastructure.oris — There is another interesting topic which demon-strates the diversity of your work and that is the notion of building as enclosure and space, like in the Villa La Voile in Cap Ferrat or especially in the Free University’s Library in Berlin which opens other topics related to energy, sustainability and so on. ¶ norman foster — I think Bucky put it quite well when he said that, when he was working at a design, he never thought about beauty, but if it did not come out as something beautiful, then, in a way, he had not done it right. When you are working at a project with the idea that it is sustainable, if, when you have completed it and it is highly sustainable, it is not also beautiful and uplifting or adding something to the human spirit, in some way you failed. Sustainability cannot be a way to justify a design failure; that is a contradiction. Everything, in the end, has to be integrated.

Vijadukt Millau, Millau, Francuska,

1993. – 2004.

Millau Viaduct, Millau, France,

1993 – 2004

(jpa)

Paviljon Vieux Port, Marseille, Francuska, 2011. – 2013.

Vieux Port Pavilion, Marseille, France, 2011 – 2013

(ny)


u Villi La Voile u Cap Ferratu ili osobito u knjižnici Slobodnog sveučilišta u Berlinu koja opet otvara druge teme vezane za energiju, održivost i tako dalje. ¶ norman Foster — Mislim da je Bucky to prilično dobro izrazio kada je rekao da, kada je projektirao, nikada nije razmišljao o ljepoti, ali ako to na kraju nije ispalo nešto lijepo, onda to na neki način nije napravio kako treba. Ako radite na projektu s idejom da bude održiv i kada ga završite on zaista bude izuzetno održiv, a nije također i lijep i oplemenjujući ili ne doprinosi ljudskom duhu, na neki ste način zakazali. Održivost ne može biti sredstvo opravdavanja neuspješnog dizajna; to je proturječje. Sve u konačnici mora biti objedinjeno.oris — Još jedna velika tema modernizma ili kasnog moder-nizma je građenje u povijesnom kontekstu sa sjajnim primje-rima Scarpe, Holleina, Gina Vallea ili Petera Zumthora u Kölnu. Jednom ste rekli da ste sa zgradama u takvim kontekstima htjeli naglasiti vrijednost mjesta, vrijednost memorije. Koje su Vaše metode i procesi zaslužni za izvanredne projekte kao što su adaptacija Reichstaga, Carré d’Art u Nîmesu ili paviljon Vieux Port u Marseilleu? ¶ norman foster — Paul Goldber-ger nedavno je napisao knjigu Building with History (Građenje s poviješću) i uključio je cijeli niz naših projekata jer je sma-trao da smo se bavili tkivom povijesne zgrade sa suvremenim intervencijama vjerojatno u većoj mjeri nego bilo tko drugi. Tih primjera je mnogo, od Muzeja lijepih umjetnosti u Bostonu, Treasuryja ovdje u Londonu, Reichstaga, kao što kažete,

Kada radite na projektu s idejom da bude održiv, a nije također i lijep i oplemenjujući ili ne doprinosi ljudskom duhu, na neki ste način zakazali

When you are working at a project with the idea that it is sustainable, if it is not also beautiful and uplifting or adding to the human spirit, in some way you failed

Great Court Britanskog muzeja, London,

Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 1994. – 2000.

Great Court at the British Museum, London, United

Kingdom, 1994 – 2000

(ny)

Milenijski most, London, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 1996. – 2000.

Millennium Bridge, London, United Kingdom, 1996 – 2000

(ny)


oris — Another big issue of Modernism or late Modernism is building in historical context with great examples by Scarpa, Hollein, Gino Valle or Peter Zumthor in Cologne. You once said that, with buildings in such contexts, you wanted to stress the value of the place, the value of memory. Which are your methods and processes behind outstanding projects such as the Reichstag conversion, the Carré d’Art in Nîmes or the Vieux Port Pavilion in Marseille? ¶ norman foster — Paul Goldberger wrote a book recently, Building with History, and he included a whole range of our projects because he felt that we engaged with the fabric of historical building with con-temporary interventions probably to a greater extent than

The things which look the simplest and the easiest really come out of blood, sweat and tears Stvari koje izgledaju najjednostavnije i najlakše zapravo proizlaze iz krvi, znoja i suza

Carré d’Art, Nîmes, Francuska,

1984. – 1993

Carré d’Art, Nîmes, France,

1984 – 1993

(jm)


Britanskog muzeja, Muzeja Joslyn, Smithsoniana... Popis je jako dugačak, no prilično dosljedna filozofija ukorijenjena je u razumijevanju slojeva povijesti i njihova uklapanja, donekle poput grada u mikrokozmosu. Ta vrsta raznolikosti i bogatstva mnogih slojeva pozitivna je i važno je da se ne prepustimo valu pastiša, što je nekada bila metoda. To je još jedna prilično jaka nit koja se provlači kroz naš rad.oris — Projekt u Nîmesu protegnuo se kroz prilično dugo razdoblje – dvanaest godina, a radi se o projektu malog mje-rila, no imate i iznimno velike projekte kao što je zračna luka u Pekingu, izgrađene mnogo bržim tempom. Kako se proces mijenja u odnosu na te vrlo različite frekvencije, odnosno

anybody else. There are a lot of examples, from the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, the Treasury here in London, Reichstag as you say, British Museum, Joslyn Museum, Smithsonian… It is a very long list, but a fairly consistent philosophy is rooted in understanding the layers of history and how they add up rather like a city in microcosm. The kind of diversity and the richness of many layers is positive and it is important not to get carried away into a wave of pastiche which was a method in the past. That is another quite strong thread in our work.oris — The project in Nîmes extended over a rather long period – twelve years, and it is a small-scale project, but then you have some immense projects, like the Beijing Airport,

Slobodno sveučilište u Berlinu (Freie Universität Berlin), Berlin, Njemačka, 1997. – 2005.

Free University Berlin, Berlin, Germany 1997 – 2005

(ny)


mijenja li se proces rada? ¶ norman foster — Teže je raditi na projektu tijekom dužeg vremenskog razdoblja jer se mijenjaju sugovornici. Kada je projekt brz, radite s istim lju-dima. Najteže je kada postanete upravitelj projekta. Projekt može započeti, a zatim putem bude predan nekom drugom; oni nisu bili začetnici, pokrovitelji projekta, možda čak imaju i postojeći interes da ga izazovu, kritiziraju, preispituju, da ga ismiju. Možda bi više dobili njegovim neuspjehom nego nje-govim uspjehom jer je on povezan s prethodnom upravom. I mogu se sjetiti projekata gdje se takva vrsta tijela za upravlja-nje projektom promijenila četiri puta tijekom trajanja projekta. Tako da ljudi s kojima ga završite nemaju onaj idealizam koji je pokrenuo projekt.oris — To je također bio slučaj i s Reichstagom – bilo je ogra-ničenja, bilo je izmjena. ¶ norman foster — Reichstag je ipak bio drugačiji jer je postojao kontinuitet bitnih pojedi-naca. Rita Süssmuth je bila konstanta, Peter Conradi je bio konstanta, no neki drugi projekti nisu imali te prednosti.oris — Gotovo svaki arhitekt suočava se s ograničenjima izvana i prisiljen je na kompromise. ¶ norman foster — Ne, ne slažem se. Ograničenja su suština arhitekture, arhitektura ne postoji bez ograničenja. Takvo nešto ne postoji. Mislim da je to sama bit, pokretačka sila arhitekture. Ograničenje izvlači najbolje u smislu arhitekture. I nema razloga zašto bi trebalo dovesti do kompromisa.oris — Može dovesti do nove kreacije. ¶ norman foster — To je poticaj invencije, poticaj kreativnosti.oris — Svakako ste pokazali sposobnost da razlučite vrlo kompleksna pitanja, probleme i tehnološke potrebe u jed-nostavne i univerzalno razumljive prostore, a Vaše su zračne luke među projektima koji to najjasnije pokazuju. ¶ norman foster — To je rezultat pročišćenja, ne dolazi do toga lako. Ako izgleda lako na kraju, to je lijep kompliment. Stvari koje izgledaju najjednostavnije i najlakše doista izviru iz krvi, znoja i suza. Kao što je rekao Charles Eames, ne pokazujte krv, znoj i suze. Ako uzmete Stansted, on je ponudio novo rješenje terminala zračne luke, bio je revolucionaran. Doslovno ga je okrenuo naglavačke, otvorio ga nebu, dakle, to je potraga za arhitekturom neba. Peking i Hong Kong bili su evolucijski, gra-dili su povrh tog modela i pročistili ga. Mislim da zračna luka u Mexico Cityju ima potencijal za reinvenciju.oris — Možemo li se ukratko vratiti Willis Faberu? Moglo bi ga se promatrati kao vrlo elegantno dizajniran proizvod u veli-kom mjerilu i to bi se možda moglo definirati kao Produktform, kako je to shvaćao Max Bill. ¶ norman foster — Ne bih se složio. Rekao bih da je to potpuno kontekstualan projekt. Drugim riječima, što je suština srednjovjekovnoga trgovišta?

Reichstag, novi njemački parlament,

Berlin, Njemačka, 1992. – 1999.

Reichstag, New German Parliament,

Berlin, Germany, 1992 – 1999

(ny)


constructed at a much faster pace. How does the process change in relation to those very different frequencies, or does the working process change? ¶ norman foster — It is more difficult to work on a project over a longer period of time because people change. When the project is fast, you are deal-ing with the same people. The most difficult thing is when you become the custodian of the project. A project might start and then, along the way, it is handed to someone else; they were not the incubators, the patrons of the project, they might even have a vested interest in challenging it, rubbishing it, question-ing it, in making a mockery. They might have more to gain by its failure than its success because it is associated with the previous regime. And I can think of projects where that kind of commissioning body has changed four times over the life of the project. So the people with whom you finish it have no concept of the idealism which might have started the project.

Ograničenja su suština arhitekture, ona ne postoji bez ograničenja. To je sama bit, pokretačka sila arhitekture Constraints are the essence of architecture, it does not exist without constraints. It is the very essence, the lifeblood of architecture

Sjedište tvrtke Willis Faber & Dumas,

Ipswich, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo,

1971. – 1975.

Willis Faber & Dumas Headquarters, Ipswich,

United Kingdom, 1971 – 1975

(ny)


oris — That was the case with the Reichstag as well – there were constraints, there were changes. ¶ norman fos-ter — Reichstag was different though, because it did have continuity of important individuals. Rita Süssmuth was a con-stant, Peter Conradi was a constant, but some other projects did not have those advantages.oris — Almost every architect faces constraints from the outside and is forced to make compromises. ¶ norman fos-ter — No, I do not agree. Constraints are the essence of architecture; architecture does not exist without constraints. There is no such thing. I think it is the very essence, the life-blood of architecture. Constraint brings out the best in terms of architecture. And there is no reason why it should lead to compromise.oris — It can lead to new creation. ¶ norman foster — It is the spur of invention, the spur of creativity.

oris — Referirate se na fasadu koja je zakrivljena kao odgo-vor na nepravilni obrazac srednjovjekovnih ulica. ¶ norman foster — Da, to je vrlo precizan odgovor na urbanitet trgovišta. Zgrada ide točno do kraja svoje parcele i smanjuje ulice do minimuma. Ideja o proizvodu je univerzalna stvar koju možete ostvariti ovdje u trgovištu ili je možete ostvariti tamo u predgrađu, nije namijenjena za određeno mjesto, dok je Willis Faber apsolutno namijenjen za tu lokaciju. Proizvod je univerzalan. Mogli biste ga staviti bilo kamo. Willis Faber ne biste mogli staviti nigdje osim na tu parcelu u Ipswichu. To je poput komada slagalice – postoji samo jedno mjesto kamo pristaje.oris — Možda se radi o Produktformu jednako kao što je to bio Crystal Palace. ¶ norman foster — To je veliki kom-pliment. Paxton je heroj. Ali, ako je to perspektiva, navedite zgradu koja nije proizvod.


oris — You have certainly shown a capacity to distil very complex issues, problems, and technological needs into simple and universally understandable spaces, and your airports are among the projects which most clearly show this. ¶ norman foster — That is a result of a distillation, it does not come easily. If it looks easy at the end, that is a nice compliment. The things which look the simplest and the easiest really come out of blood, sweat and tears. As Charles Eames said, never let the blood show. If you take Stansted, Stansted reinvented the air-port terminal, it was revolutionary. It literally turned it upside down, opened it up to the sky, so it is a quest for the architec-ture of the sky. Beijing and Hong Kong were evolutionary, they built on top of that model, and they refined it. The Mexico City Airport, I think, has the potential to reinvent again.oris — Could we shortly go back to the Willis Faber? It could be viewed as a very elegantly designed product in a large scale and it could perhaps be defined as Produktform as Max Bill understood it. ¶ norman foster — I would disagree. I would say that it is totally contextual. In other words, what is the essence of a medieval market town?oris — You are referring to the facade which curves in response to the irregular medieval street pattern. ¶ norman

oris — Svaka zgrada je proizvod, ali pitanje je koliko je savršena. Sigurno imate mnogo briga s toliko projekata svih mjerila. Možete li još uvijek pronaći strast i predanost koje su uvijek bile prisutne u Vašem radu? ¶ norman foster — Sada putujem više nego ikad prije i radim više nego ikada tako da odgovor mora biti potvrdan. Tijekom mog života ništa se nije

Međunarodna zračna luka Mexico City,

Mexico City, Meksiko, 2014. – u izgradnji,

3d vizualizacija

Mexico City International Airport, Mexico City, Mexico, 2014 – ongoing, 3d

visualization

(fp)

Zračna luka Peking, Peking, Kina,

2003. – 2008.

Beijing Airport, Beijing, China, 2003 – 2008

(mw)


Zračna luka Stansted, Stansted, Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo, 1981. – 1991.

Stansted Airport, Stansted, United Kingdom, 1981 – 1991

(dg)

(nf)


foster — Yes, it is a very precise response to the urbanity of the market town. The building goes right to the end of its site and it squeezes the streets to the minimum. The idea of a product is a universal thing which you can drop here in a market town or you can drop it there in a suburb; it is not contoured for a specific place, whereas Willis Faber is abso-lutely site-specific. A product is universal. You could put it anywhere. Willis Faber could not be put anywhere but on that site in Ipswich. It is like a piece of jigsaw – there is only one place where it will go.oris — Perhaps it is a Produktform in the same way that the Crystal Palace was one. ¶ norman foster — That is a great compliment. Paxton is a hero. But, if that is the perspective, name a building that is not a product.oris — Every building is a product, but the question is how perfect it is. You surely have many concerns with so many projects of all scales. Can you still find the passion and the commitment which was always present in your work? ¶ nor-man foster — I am just travelling more than I ever had in my life and I am working harder than ever so the answer has to be yes. For me, nothing has changed throughout my life in terms of my passion for architecture. With time, I have become more aware of the importance of cities, importance of urbanity, the importance of public space, but all of those were things that preoccupied me as a student, whether it was measuring ver-nacular buildings or exploring glass with very little knowledge about that, my travels in America, my time at Yale, my expo-sure to teachers such as Vincent Scully who brought history alive and made it relevant in terms of what was happening today. I still have the same mad obsessions, and still the crazy passions; they are amplifications and developments of things that interested me when I first became aware of architec-ture. For me, it was a privilege to study architecture; I paid my own way through university. If you are passionate about something, then you can become very driven by it. Just at the end of the summer, I was with somebody from New York and we were comparing backgrounds and in the end he said, you know, as youth, we were both phds. I asked him what he meant by phds and he said, poor, hungry, and driven. In a way, everything has changed and nothing has changed.

promijenilo u smislu moje strasti prema arhitekturi. S vreme-nom sam postao svjesniji važnosti gradova, važnosti urbano-sti, važnosti javnog prostora, ali sve su to bile stvari koje su me zaokupljale kao studenta, bilo to mjerenje vernakularnih zgrada ili istraživanje stakla s vrlo malo znanja o tome, moja putovanja Amerikom, vrijeme provedeno na Yaleu, moja izlo-ženost učiteljima poput Vincenta Scullya koji je oživljavao povijest i učinio ju relevantnom u smislu onoga što se događa danas. Još uvijek imam iste lude opsesije i lude strasti, one su osnaženja i razvijanja tema koje su me zanimale kad sam prvi put postao svjestan arhitekture. Za mene je bila privilegija stu-dirati arhitekturu, ja sam platio svoj put kroz sveučilište. Ako nešto u vama budi strast, onda vas to može jako motivirati. Baš sam krajem ljeta bio s nekim iz New Yorka, uspoređivali smo naše životno iskustvo i na kraju je on rekao: Znate, kao mladi, obojica smo bili ‘sgm’. Pitao sam ga što je mislio pod sgm, a on je rekao: siromašan, gladan i motiviran. Na neki način sve se promijenilo i ništa se nije promijenilo.

Puno ideja koje sam istraživao i koje još uvijek istražujem seže u moje rane studentske korijene, prije nego što sam uopće bio svjestan arhitektonske profesije Many of the ideas which I explored and am still exploring go right back to early roots as a student, before I was even aware of the profession of architecture

norman foster ograničenja su poticaj are the spur invencije of … · 2020. 12. 2. · shanghai...

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