mfr nara- t6- team 6 meeting- 12-2-03- 01070

8/14/2019 Mfr Nara- t6- Team 6 Meeting- 12-2-03- 01070

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Lee asked if there is a recognition within the FBI that they failed pre-9Ill. Chris Healeysaid yes, there was an admission from the Senior level on down that the FBI was not theright kind of organization Caroline Barnes said some CT agents were frustrated -they feel they did good work, but there was nobody to provide strategic analysis, to paintthe big picture. Peter Rundlet agreed that the good ones feel they didn't get support.FBI Priorities: Lee asked if terrorism is the appropriate top priority. Resources are finite.For instance, we need sophisticated law-enforcement to pursue something Iike Enron. CTworks as a top priority in the context of 9111, but is it best for the Nation? Why is the FBIfighting drugs when DEA could do it? Is CT distracting from other law-enforcementissues?TTIC: Lee asked about TTIC. Chris Healy said this is ajoint subject with other teams.TTIC currently has 150 people at Langley but will get its own space. There is someconfusion as to who's job is what. Director Brennan reports to the DCI; there is nocollection capacity; authority comes from home organizations; TIIC disseminates tofederal agencies but not state and local authorities. Caroline Barnes said there arecomplaints that TTIC is not value-added: it is either duplicative or alters analysis. Lee saidthe Team - and Commission - will have to give a sharp analysis ofTTIC.Legal Authority: Lee asked if the FBI has enough legal authority, or perhaps too much.Peter Rundlet said the PATRIOT Act provides for more information-sharing, surveillanceand searches. Chris Healey said the FBI will always say they need more, but many peoplefeel they have too much - certainly not much more is needed. Caroline Barnes said agentsalways want administrative subpoena power so that field offices can do things in-house.Chris Healey said this depends upon what information is being sought - someadministrative power is already in the field offices. Lee said the Team should look at legalauthority - where does the FBI need more, where is there too much?Civil Liberties: Lee said he is personally concerned about civil liberties. Chief JusticeReinhquist has said the pendulum naturally swings toward security during war, but alwaysswings back. Lee is not so sanguine. The war on terror is open-ended by nature: Congresshas punted, and the courts have not been much better. In the current environment, thesecurity people never lose an argument: what is the long-term impact of this? In Lee'sview, the Commission should address this question: How do you preserve civil liberties inan environment of terrorism? Often the FBI will have a long list of things they want donewhich then get passed after a major event (eg. 9/11). Conversely, an argument for keepingdomestic intelligence in the FBI is that they do generally have sensitivity to the rule of law(depending upon the Director). Chris Healey commented that most civil liberties groupswould prefer to keep domestic intelligence in the FBI for that reason. Lee said the LawyersCommittee on Human Rights report was the best study he has seen on the issue of liberties.Lee said he isn't sure the extent to which the Commission will get into certain issues on thehorizon. For instance, highly intrusive new technologies. The American people need to beprepared for what is coming - the Commission can help do that. Peter Rundlet said the keyevaluation is what security is gained from liberties lost. It is a cost-benefit issue.


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Foreign/Doemstic: Lee asked about the interface between foreign and domesticintelligence. Peter Rundlet said it is not great in the field offices, with the exception ofPhoenix. Chris Healey said it is getting better in Washington with TTIC, electronic links,and relations between Mueller and Tenet. This gets back to the issue of liberties - there is a

. question as to the statutory line between foreign and domestic intelligence. Lee said he hasnever detected much of a sensitivity to civil liberties in the CIA.Oversight: Lee said he has never been impressed with Congressional oversight of the FBI,or the intelligence community as a whole. They take punches on the Hill and then they getwhat they want, if not more - what kind of message does that send? You need robustoversight in the Congress, since the Executive Branch won't do it.Foreign Governments: Lee asked how the FBI is working with foreign governments -this is enormously important. Caroline Barnes said most of this is through foreign legalattaches. There is an impression that there is effective sharing. There are some peculiarconflicts - for instance the FBI is not happy that NYPD has some of its own peopleabroad. Lee said a problem is that we always have a surplus of people in London and Paris.Noone wants to go to Islamabad.Detainees: Peter Rundlet raised detainees - there are questions about cross-jurisdiction andinternational law. Lee feels we have done an awful job on this; his personal opinion is thatwe need a new framework. So far we have avoided Constitutional questions. Detaineesneed some rights - counsel, witnesses. There needs to be some rudimentary elements ofdue process. He feels there is a broader recognition of this and the system is beginning toright itself. He is interested in the issue but is not sure if it grows out of the Commission'smandate. Chris Kojm said that since this has risen to such a large problem for Americanforeign policy, there are areas where it could be addressed by the Commission.Report: Chris Kojm said this is a forward-looking team. The Joint Inquiry did work onhow the FBI performed and the Team is building on that. In assessing the FBI'sperformance, the Kuala Lumpur case study being coordinated by Barbara Grewe andLloyd Salvetti will be important in looking back. Lee said the Team will have to look atpre-9/11 - what did we do right, what did we do wrong; post-9/11 - what have we done(FBI reform and TTIC), what is working, what isn't. The report should be straight-forward.Recommendations: Lee said he is interested in hearing recommendations that are in theballpark. He has heard some sympathy on the Hill for separating the intelligence functionof the FBI. The Commission doesn't want a slew of recommendations - the Team shouldidentify the 2,3, or 4 most important issues. More extensive recommendations can be in theextended monograph. Most policymakers and the general public will just read theExecutive Summary, so it rises in importance. Peter Rundlet asked if each Team wouldhave its own Executive Summary, or if there would just be one "master" ExecutiveSummary. Chris Kojm said this had not been determined.


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Priorities: Lee returned to the issue of priorities for the Team. They will have to assess:whether counter-terrorism is the right priority for the FBI; FBI reforms and the Office ofIntelligence; state and local cooperation with the FBI; TTIC; legal authority and thePATRIOT Act; and the technological upgrades being implemented by the FBI.Key issues are the organization of our domestic intelligence and law enforcement; ourcapacity for information-sharing; civil liberties; and the culture of the FBI - can it performthe functions of domestic intelligence and counter-terrorism? Changing structures isexceedingly difficult Setting things up would be an immense challenge. Conversely,Secretary Schlesinger testified that we should just leave things alone, but Lee is notcomfortable with that.

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mfr nara- t6- team 6 meeting- 12-2-03- 01070

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