Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Maryland DNR

Summer Meeting of the Sport Fisheries

Advisory Commission (SFAC)

Tuesday,

July 18, 2017

Held at the Maryland Department of Natural Resources

Tawes State Office Building Annapolis, Maryland

2

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Maryland DNR

Summer Meeting of the Sport Fisheries Advisory Commission

July 18, 2017

SFAC Members Present:

Phil Langley, Vice Chair

Micah Dammeyer

Rachel Dean

Mark DeHoff

Beverly Fleming

Jim Gracie

Val Lynch

Ray P. Morgan, II, Ph.D.

John Neely

Ed O’Brien

Roger Trageser

James Wommack

SFAC Members Absent:

David Sutherland

Maryland DNR Fisheries Service

David Blazer

Paul Genovese

3

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Maryland DNR

Summer Meeting of the Sport Fisheries Advisory Commission

July 18, 2017

I N D E X

Page

Welcome and Announcements by Phil Langley, Vice Chair, SFAC

and Dave Blazer, Director

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 5

Public Comment 8

Questions and Answers 10

License-Free Fishing Areas by Erik Zlokovitz

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 13

Questions and Answers 23

MOTION 33

NRP Activity Report and Priorities by Lt. Tim Grove and Sgt. Randy Bowman

MD DNR NRP 37

Questions and Answers 39

Spanish Outreach Initiative by Dr. Linda Barker

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 54

Questions and Answers 63

MOTION 75

Policy Program by Jacob Holtz

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 76

Freshwater Update by Tony Prochaska

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 85

4

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Black Bass Advisory Subcommittee Applicant Review by Commissioner Roger Trageser 91

I N D E X (continued)

Page

Questions and Answers 92

MOTION 93

Coldwater Update by Commissioner Jim Gracie 95

MOTION 100

Chesapeake Bay Programs

Sustainable Fisheries Goal Implementation Team by Bruce Vogt

National Oceanic

and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) 103

Mallows Bay Discussion by Commissioner Jim Gracie 115

MOTION 117

Monitoring and Assessment Topics by Dave Blazer, Director

MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 121

ASMFC/ MAFMC Updates and Announcements 121

Questions and Answers 126

License Sales Overview 132

Questions and Answers 132

Public Comment 137

KEYNOTE: “---” denotes inaudible in the transcript.

“ * ” indicates word is phonetically spelled.

lcj 5

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 1

(2:05 p.m.) 2

Welcome and Announcements 3

by Phil Langley, Vice Chair, SFAC 4

and Dave Blazer, Director, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 5

MR. LANGLEY: All right, I would like to thank 6

everybody for coming here. I know everybody has got very busy 7

schedules and whatnot but it looks like we have got pretty 8

good attendance here. 9

I don’t know who we are missing, Paul? 10

MR. GENOVESE: David Sutherland. 11

MR. LANGLEY: Have you heard from him? Do you 12

expect him to be here? 13

MR. GENOVESE: No, he said he will not be able to 14

make it. 15

MR. LANGLEY: All right. We are going to call this 16

meeting to order. Thank you. Dave, do you have a couple of 17

announcements you want to make? 18

MR. BLAZER: Just a couple of really quick 19

announcements. I know at the last meeting we had talked about 20

folks, this set of commissioners, your terms expired June 30. 21

You are on until you are replaced. We have not 22

heard from the appointments office about appointees for the 23

upcoming SFAC so you guys are on until we figure out where to 24

go until the appointments come in. 25

lcj 6

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

So thank you for continuing to serve. Two other 1

quick things. We sent out a notice about the Cownose Ray 2

Workgroup that we are trying to put together to start the 3

fishery management plan process. So if you have any folks who 4

would be interested in participating in the Cownose Ray 5

Workgroup, let us know. 6

And then the other comment really quick: We have 7

implemented a lot of the crab regs, as I think you all 8

have -- were familiar with back in June when we met and talked 9

about it. Everything I think went pretty smoothly. We 10

deducted 10 days off the season, modified bushel limits for 11

the female harvest, similar to what we had talked about in 12

June. 13

That all went into effect July 1, and then two days 14

ago, three days ago, July 15, the size limit changed to 5 1/4 15

as scheduled. One other quick note: The Oyster Advisory 16

Committee met this month. They will be taking August off. 17

Again attendance was a little light in July just because of 18

summer break and stuff. 19

So there will not be an Oyster Advisory Committee 20

meeting in August but they will reconvene September 11, I 21

believe, which is the second Monday of the month. 22

So they will meet, and an agenda and everything will 23

be forthcoming but they continue to discuss oyster management. 24

MR. GRACIE: Question for you, Dave. Is the Cownose 25

lcj 7

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Ray Workgroup -- is it your intention to make that for 1

commissioners only from the two commissions or going outside 2

that? 3

MR. BLAZER: Outside. 4

MR. GRACIE: Have any commissioners from either 5

commission said they would serve on it? 6

MR. BLAZER: I have not heard. I knew there was 7

some interest but I don’t know if they submitted their names. 8

I can check on that, Jim. 9

MR. GRACIE: I am just curious. I guess I don’t 10

know enough about it. It sounds like it is a spot that is not 11

going to make anybody happy. 12

MR. BLAZER: Thank you. 13

MR. GRACIE: Thank you. I don’t have time to 14

volunteer for it, sorry. 15

MR. LANGLEY: Jim, you weren’t supposed to announce 16

that until people signed up. 17

MR. BLAZER: Jim, usually with those workgroups, we 18

open them up and try to get 6, 8, 10, 12 people who are 19

somewhat familiar with the fishery and the fish and try to 20

help us through that in addition to commissioners. 21

MR. GRACIE: If you have a bunch of people who are 22

not commissioners and you need a commissioner and you don’t 23

have one, you can sign me up then. 24

MR. BLAZER: Okay. 25

lcj 8

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: It would be good to hear people’s input 1

on that. I have no idea what to say about it or where to 2

stand on it. 3

MR. BLAZER: Right, and that is the whole idea of 4

the workgroup because there are a lot of different things 5

swirling around. 6

MR. GRACIE: I kind of think that as commissioners, 7

we should try to figure out what the fishing community wants. 8

And this is an area I know nothing about so -- but if there 9

are any other commissioners, I don’t want any parts of it. 10

MR. BLAZER: And again whatever that FMP or the 11

fishery management plan, how it develops, it will be coming 12

back to this group and the TFAC so you will have a bite at the 13

apple but it is good to hear a lot of those discussions as 14

they take place, so thank you. That is it, I think. 15

MR. LANGLEY: Before we move forward, my 16

predecessor, whom I still miss greatly, Dave Sikorski, had 17

asked if you would hold your card up if you had something to 18

say. Please continue to follow along with that. 19

At this point I am going to ask is there any public 20

comment? 21

Public Comment 22

MR. EBERHARDT: Hopefully this is the right time. 23

MR. LANGLEY: If you could move up to a mic for the 24

public comment. And if you could just state your name. 25

lcj 9

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. EBERHARDT: My name is Jim Eberhardt, and I am 1

mayor of the town of Perryville, and I am here today to speak 2

on behalf of our application for a license-free fish zone. 3

You will be considering that, I see, later on the 4

agenda. We have been trying for at least since 2009 to get a 5

license-free fish zone. Erik has been up and looked at it, 6

and I would assume that during the discussion that he would 7

tell you all he knows about it. 8

We think we have a great spot. Perryville is a 9

longtime fishing area there at the mouth of the Susquehanna 10

for those of you who are not familiar with it. 11

Several, many -- five, six or more years ago, I 12

can’t recall exactly now, through program Open Space, we were 13

able to acquire five acres along the river, and actually the 14

price was such, as waterfront property is, that Program Open 15

Space would not cover it all. We were so anxious to get that 16

piece of property, the town kicked in another $300,000. 17

Our primary goal at that point in time was 18

preservation. We were very quickly -- our waterfront was 19

becoming condo and townhouse row and there was not a lot of 20

public access. Our long-term goal is to make it more of a 21

parkland but hopefully as you will see because I know Erik 22

took a lot of pictures, that we have a great area along the 23

river there that has riprap bulkhead along it, and fishing is 24

sometimes great, sometimes not so great. 25

lcj 10

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

And we have constantly catfish and bass and perch, 1

and in the right season we get some shad, we get some rockfish 2

and a lot of white perch coming up. So it is a great area. 3

This particular park is within walking distance in town to a 4

number of low-income folks who could get there. 5

Certainly the license-free would be a great benefit 6

to the community, and if there are any questions that I can 7

answer now or I would be happy to stay around and answer any 8

questions that you might have during the portion of the 9

agenda. So I am at your demand on that one, and my goal is 10

simply to convince you to look favorably on our application. 11

MR. LANGLEY: Thank you, Jim. Did anybody have any 12

questions for Jim at this time? 13

Questions and Answers 14

MR. NEELY: Do you have any public access kayak 15

docks, fishing piers? 16

MR. EBERHARDT: We do. We have a large 100-some 17

acre park that is at the far end of the VA hospital at Perry 18

Point, if you are familiar with that at all. We have a 19

fishing pier there. We have access there. 20

The issue here, and that is not where we are asking 21

for the license-free zone. This is a smaller five-acre park 22

that has good bulkhead cliffs over on the Perry Point side of 23

it. This has good bulkhead, and it is walking distance for a 24

lot of children where the other park isn’t. 25

lcj 11

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

We have 300 yards up the way, up the river a little 1

bit, on the north side of Route 40 Hayden Bridge, a public 2

boat launch. We have restrooms there, and probably about 300 3

yards in the other direction, we have other public restrooms 4

available. 5

And even at this location, we plan to put a 6

porta-pot there as first means of access for a restroom. 7

MR. NEELY: I don’t know if you have been in contact 8

with the Chesapeake Conservancy but they frequently have funds 9

available for projects just like this. They work hand in hand 10

with Program Open Space, Governor Hogan’s department. It is 11

just a suggestion. 12

MR. EBERHARDT: Mr. Dunn? 13

MR. NEELY: Joel Dunn. 14

MR. EBERHARDT: Joel Dunn. 15

MR. NEELY: That is right. 16

MR. EBERHARDT: I appreciate that. 17

MR. NEELY: You were 10 steps ahead of me. If I can 18

help you with that organization, let me know. 19

MR. EBERHARDT: I appreciate it. I know Joel very 20

well, back from Captain John Smith’s --- . They stop at 21

Perryville. 22

MR. NEELY: Great. I am looking at a map of your 23

town right now. 24

MR. GRACIE: Just a quick question. You talked 25

lcj 12

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

about condo row. Don’t you have critical area regulations? 1

That is all in Chesapeake Bay critical areas. 2

MR. EBERHARDT: We do. 3

MR. GRACIE: That limits development, doesn’t it? 4

MR. EBERHARDT: It does but it certainly was not 5

public land at that time, and that is really what we were 6

looking for, mainly, as I said at the time, to preserve it. 7

Yes, we have critical areas. 8

MR. GRACIE: My follow-up question is -- I guess I 9

missed it. Are you requesting that be designated? Is that on 10

the agenda for today? 11

MR. EBERHARDT: Yes, sir. I am sorry if I wasn’t 12

clear on that, yes. 13

MR. LANGLEY: John, I have a quick follow-up 14

question. You said it is a five-acre site that you are 15

looking to designate? 16

MR. EBERHARDT: Jim. 17

MR. LANGLEY: Jim, I am sorry. A five-acre site 18

that you are looking to designate as a license-free area. Is 19

there any other access around that or would there be signage 20

put up if it did -- if we did look favorably upon it to 21

keep -- how would people know they were in a license-free area 22

versus -- 23

MR. EBERHARDT: There would absolutely be signage 24

put up and, as a matter of fact, when Erik was up last week, I 25

lcj 13

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

guess it was, we were ready to take the signs from him at that 1

time. 2

We had our public works guy there, and we were 3

willing to put them up, and we looked end to end of where 4

might be the best -- it wouldn’t be the whole five acres. 5

Just where we had a bulkheaded area in that park. 6

MR. ZLOKOVITZ: I have pictures of the property and 7

we have -- and I will talk about the signage in the 8

presentation. 9

MS. DEAN: I think Erik maybe just answered my 10

question but -- and you said you have been working on this 11

since 2009? 12

MR. EBERHARDT: Our first application to you was 13

back in 2009, I believe. 14

MS. DEAN: I was going to suggest that possibly this 15

be moved up and discussed now since we seem to be doing that 16

but I understand there is a presentation to go with it. 17

MR. EBERHARDT: I would love that -- 18

MR. LANGLEY: We can do that while the iron is hot 19

and so we don’t reinvent the wheel on a discussion that has 20

already taken place, let’s go ahead and put this up on the 21

agenda and move forward with that. 22

License-Free Fishing Areas 23

by Erik Zlokovitz, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 24

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Thanks, Mr. Vice Chairman, and 25

lcj 14

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

thanks to the commission for letting me speak today. 1

There are sort of two parts to this presentation. 2

And I will discuss, as the mayor just mentioned, the sign 3

requirements for the site, and also I have some pictures of 4

the property, and I realize right now that there is already 5

going to be one correction in my spreadsheet because I thought 6

my predecessor was contacted about three years ago but it 7

sounds more like eight or nine years ago. 8

MR. EBERHARDT: 2009. 9

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Okay, that we were first contacted 10

about the site. So I know it has been a long time. So that 11

would be one correction for my spreadsheet, which I think you 12

guys have in the handouts, and we can also put it up on the 13

screen. 14

(Slide) 15

So we have actually four sites that have been 16

requested as free fishing areas around the state, which I will 17

be discussing. The Perryville one is the one that was 18

requested the longest time back. That request goes back the 19

furthest. The other requests are a little bit more recent. 20

MR. BLAZER: Really quick, Erik. This is in Tab Six 21

if you need information. 22

MR. SLOKOVITZ: I think there is a map and a summary 23

spreadsheet of the four areas. So the goal for the license-24

free fishing areas is to increase participation in Maryland’s 25

lcj 15

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

recreational fishery with an emphasis on family fishing 1

opportunities and also subsistence fishing. 2

And the reason that you are all here today is 3

because the department actually requires input from the Sport 4

Fish Advisory Commission on evaluating these sites and also 5

adding or possibly subtracting areas because we actually do 6

occasionally remove areas based on either concerns about 7

safety or accessibility, and that has happened in the last 10 8

or so years. So adding and removal of sites. 9

(Slide) 10

The main criteria for the license-free fishing areas 11

is to provide high-quality, safe, accessibly and 12

geographically equitable fishing opportunities for families 13

and subsistence anglers. So just keep that in mind as you are 14

thinking about the different sites. 15

(Slide) 16

So in your handouts, there is a map of the sites. I 17

apologize if the colors are a little hard to discern. 18

Actually, you have a black-and-white copy but we will post a 19

color copy on the Website. And I will point out the sites 20

that are the new proposed sites. 21

These are all existing sites except for the 22

Perryville site is a new proposed, which is marked for study. 23

The Crisfield downtown dock is a new site that is proposed for 24

study. The Charlestown Avalon area, not to be confused with 25

lcj 16

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

the old wharf. It is called Avalon Lot B. That is a new site 1

proposed study. 2

And the Greensboro Waterfront Park on the Choptank 3

River is a new proposed site. Everything else on the map is 4

already an existing site. And as you can see, they are 5

distributed around the state. There is one in sort of 6

western/central Maryland. I think that is Frederick County, 7

Gambrills State Park. 8

And you can see they are kind of spread around the 9

state with I would say a few more on the eastern shore than 10

the western shore but they are spread around pretty well in 11

tidal waters. 12

And that is one of the things we are trying to do is 13

to not have them all clustered in one area geographically. 14

(Slide) 15

So again here are the four new sites that were 16

requested. The Perryville area I believe is known as Ice 17

House Park. That is correct. So the request for that area 18

was first put in back in 2009. Then we have Charlestown 19

Avalon Area Lot B, which is just a little bit north of an 20

existing free-fishing area at the old wharf. 21

We have Greensboro Waterfront Park, which is a 22

really popular area in the spring for perch fishing. I am 23

familiar with that site from doing creel surveys back when I 24

worked at the Mattapeake field office. Greensboro 25

lcj 17

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Park/Choptank River. 1

And then you have Crisfield, which is right down at 2

the end of the main drag, the downtown dock. And I just 3

wanted to make a note: That was a late application that came 4

in after our March deadline but I went ahead and I listed it 5

here because Crisfield has expressed interest in having a free 6

fishing area. 7

(Slide) 8

All of these sites were based on these criteria, 9

which are listed on the spreadsheet. Fishing quality, like 10

diversity of species. Fisheries through the seasons. Public 11

safety, just is it safe for kids and families. Accessibility, 12

parking. Is it easy to get in and out? That sort of thing. 13

Can you fish? Is it fishable? Geographic coverage, 14

which is mainly trying to avoid clustering too many sites in 15

one area. And then I noted other relevant factors or issues 16

when I did my site visits too, and I think I did mention some 17

of these in the spreadsheet. 18

(Slide) 19

This is actually a photo of the Perryville site. I 20

took a few different pictures from different angles. The 21

picture on the left is the southern downstream end of the 22

site. There is a nice large grassy field with plenty of 23

parking access and a riprap shoreline, and this is a headland 24

that goes out on the river. 25

lcj 18

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

There is a dock adjacent to the southern end of the 1

site but the property owners have already told the town that 2

they are happy to have a free fishing area there. There are 3

also condos and houses near that dock and all that around that 4

area that are easily within walking distance. 5

This is the one site where there really were a lot 6

of homes within walking distance. I would point that out. 7

More than at the other sites. 8

(Slide) 9

This is from -- taken a little bit further back. I 10

am on the edge of the property right now. This is the 11

five-acre area. It is a large grassy area with a big parking 12

loop. Easy to get in and out. The town was there mowing the 13

grass that day. That is the trailer and truck for the mowers. 14

So they are there weekly. 15

And it was a clean site. There was really very 16

little debris. Pretty good looking site. Large area. And 17

you see that gravel/sand driveway/roadway? Right behind me 18

there were houses within 100 feet of me right there. So again 19

walk-in access is definitely realistic here. Very easy to 20

walk into here. Good parking, good access. 21

(Slide) 22

Charlestown site, (Avalon Lot B), this is a little 23

bit north of the existing site. It is sort of a back-cove 24

area. I actually gave this a minus for fishing quality. It 25

lcj 19

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

is more of a back cove. It is not really on the migratory 1

pathway of shad and striped bass like the Charlestown site is. 2

Probably more of just a catfish or maybe a perch site. 3

I also have concerns because they have a $50 annual 4

parking fee that you have to pay to get into their parks, so I 5

have concerns about this proposed site, and I have concerns 6

about their existing site. So I gave this site minuses for 7

access and also for geographic coverage since they already 8

have one nearby. 9

It is safe, like all the other sites, for families, 10

and parking is okay but a minus for fishing quality and for 11

accessibility because of the parking fees in the area. 12

(Slide) 13

Greensboro site, a popular waterfront park on the 14

Choptank. There are some other green infrastructure projects 15

and DNR construction projects in the area including some of 16

the riprap and small jetties in the area. 17

There were a couple of folks fishing there. They 18

reported that during the summer it is kind of slow. Just a 19

few catfish during the summer. Maybe a couple of bass and 20

panfish. It is a good spring perch spot but for the rest of 21

the year there isn’t too much going on there so I gave it a 22

neutral rating. It is kind of a wash. It is a good spring 23

fishery but slow for the rest of the year. So I didn’t give 24

it a plus or a minus. I gave that one a neutral on fishing 25

lcj 20

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

quality. 1

It is considered safe for families. There is pretty 2

good parking. Small lot -- the lot on the left is a small lot 3

that the local fishermen use, which is good also for the more 4

elderly and handicapped anglers. And then there is a really 5

large lot that was donated from the local fire department, I 6

believe. Large grassy lot across the street that can handle 7

another 20 or 30 cars. 8

So there really isn’t -- parking is good. I just 9

gave it a neutral on fishing quality. And I gave it a neutral 10

rating on geographic coverage. You know, Caroline County 11

already has two other sites. They are not that clustered 12

together but the county does already have two other sites. 13

A lot of kids already fish this place that don’t 14

need licenses so there is already a lot of youth angling that 15

goes on there where they don’t need fishing licenses. It 16

would just be the parents that would benefit from the 17

license-free fishing area. So there are some pictures of that 18

site. 19

(Slide) 20

So the next steps, the department actually requires 21

input from sport fish on adding or possibly exchanging 22

license-free fishing areas. And this sometimes involves 23

removing an existing area. And I would mention that I do have 24

concerns about the existing site at Charlestown, which is 25

lcj 21

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

nearby that has a parking fee. Well, $50 for the year. 1

And one consideration would be to drop that site and 2

then substitute or add in the site at Perryville, which would 3

benefit folks from Cecil County and northern Maryland and 4

actually give them a free parking area, true free-fishing 5

access. 6

Also I wanted to mention there is an issue with 7

tolls. As the mayor has pointed out and others in the area, 8

the toll bridge to go from Cecil County back over to Havre de 9

Grace is over $10 now. 10

MR. EBERHARDT: $8. 11

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Oh, it is $8, okay. So it $8, and 12

that actually has become a barrier and is considered 13

cost-prohibitive for folks who are considering going from 14

Cecil County back over to Havre de Grace. So I wanted to 15

mention that also as a consideration for the northern Maryland 16

area. 17

So fishing and boating services would evaluate the 18

input and scope this, because we actually have to do this 19

under regulations. So we have to scope potential changes to 20

our free fishing sites and additions or subtractions during 21

the summer and fall. 22

I believe they would take effect -- I think we were 23

thinking around January 2018 but that is approximate. I don’t 24

have an exact timeline but we would be evaluating and scoping 25

lcj 22

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

changes in the summer and fall of this year. 1

And then we would proceed with any regulatory 2

proposals, whatever they are, as they are appropriate based on 3

the scoping. That is my run-through on the sites. 4

Crisfield I actually did not photograph but folks 5

from the Eastern Shore are probably familiar with the main 6

drag leading to downtown and the downtown dock right there in 7

downtown Crisfield. It was a later application. 8

I gave it a minus. I think for fishing quality, I 9

think it is more of a small spot and perch type of area in 10

terms of fishing and some crabbing there. Lesser quality 11

compared with the existing site they have at Janes Island 12

State Park. 13

And I gave them a minus on geographic issues because 14

they have a very high-quality site at Janes Island State Park 15

just a few miles away already in Crisfield. So they got 16

minuses based on geography and fishing quality. 17

Public safety and parking are okay but again minuses 18

on fishing quality and geographic coverage. So that would be 19

Crisfield, and that was a late application. 20

(Slide) 21

And there is the spreadsheet. That is my summary of 22

these sites. I was aiming for 15 minutes. I am not sure how 23

long I ran on that. I think I mentioned this but the mayor 24

did mention the nearby housing and definitely Perryville does 25

lcj 23

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

have a lot of housing nearby so you can easily walk to the 1

site. So at this point I guess we are looking for some input 2

from the Sport Fish Advisory Commission. And we will take it 3

from there. 4

Questions and Answers 5

MR. LANGLEY: Mark, you have a question? 6

MR. DeHOFF: At this point today are we just looking 7

at making recommendations out of these four but not 8

considering the others or what are we supposed to do at this 9

point? 10

MR. SLOKOVITZ: These are the only four sites, new 11

sites, that are being considered, okay? And I think we can 12

also consider the Charlestown site in terms of its parking 13

issues. I am really not inclined to give them a new site, 14

that is for sure. And I also have concerns about the existing 15

site because of parking. 16

So one possibility is to do an exchange where we 17

subtract that site and then add the Perryville site as a new 18

site. That is -- we can consider that. That would be a 19

consideration. 20

MR. DeHOFF: It sounded like from your discussion 21

that we were looking to add some and possibly thin some out 22

but we don’t really have any information on any other ones to 23

make a decision at this point on what we should thin out or 24

not. So at this point, we are just kind of looking as a basic 25

lcj 24

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

thumbs up or thumbs down for any of these four to be 1

considered when it comes out for scoping? That kind of a 2

thing? 3

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Yes, and I am not entirely sure if 4

we would actually scope all four of them. I think we might -- 5

would we scope all four? 6

MR. BLAZER: I think what we are looking for is 7

recommendation on these four so that we could scope those and 8

potentially go through them. 9

You know, we also have like the Charlestown site 10

where there are two kind of right close to one another. I 11

think we would appreciate a discussion maybe from you all 12

about what do you think about having two right next to each 13

other? Can we just have one? Which one might be preferable? 14

Again maybe you need more information on those two 15

sites and we can talk about that another time. 16

MR. DeHOFF: Yes, I would say we need some 17

information as to whether we keep some or lose some. 18

MR. BLAZER: Right but as you look at the map and 19

see kind of spatially how things are kind of laid out, you 20

know, where do these fit in? We don’t need a free fishing 21

area every other block of the state. 22

MR. DeHOFF: And that is where I am kind of going 23

with this because if you look at these up here in the 24

northeast corner, there are six of them right there within a 25

lcj 25

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

handful of miles of one another, and while the new spot looks 1

to be a good spot, going with the terms that we have, we 2

really shouldn’t drop another one in there unless we are going 3

to remove some of the other ones. 4

So making a recommendation to add one there without 5

knowing one is going to be removed is -- 6

MR. BLAZER: And I think that is kind of the advice 7

that I think that we would be looking for. Maybe this one is 8

favorable. We would like to add this one but let’s also 9

consider we don’t need two, three, four, five within a close 10

proximity. 11

That is some of the advice I think we are looking 12

for. 13

MR. O’BRIEN: Of these sights, which do you think is 14

most opportunistic relative to future fishermen? In other 15

words, kids? And is there a way to encourage kids, maybe by 16

restricting somewhat people coming from everywhere for free 17

fishing experiences? That gets into some other questions but 18

which one would you say most favors kids? 19

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Well, I think because of location as 20

a headland that protrudes out into a large river, the 21

Perryville site has the best fishing opportunity and also good 22

quality access for kids and families because it is on a main 23

river. Shad and striped bass pass through there in the spring 24

so there are great opportunities there in the spring. 25

lcj 26

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

And during the summer I could see largemouth bass 1

and panfish habitat on the upstream side of it because there 2

is some woody cover there. And then there were fish splashing 3

and breaking on the river there while I was there. 4

So you have a combination of a woody, covered area 5

where kids could try for bass and panfish, and then they have 6

the main portion facing out into the river, which is probably 7

an excellent spot for shad and striped bass in the spring. 8

And there is limited access in other parts of the town, and 9

families and their kids could walk to this site. 10

So I think Perryville would score well in terms of 11

opportunities for kids. And fishing quality, a combination of 12

those two. And there are also some issues where folks are not 13

really -- they are not inclined to travel over to the Havre de 14

Grace area across the river there because the tolls, and I 15

have heard that from multiple sources. So that is something 16

else to consider. 17

You know, all of these sites were relatively safe. 18

Greensboro has a reputation already as a pretty kid-friendly 19

area but the issue with Greensboro is that there is good perch 20

fishing there in the spring and then after that there is not 21

much going on. Just a few catfish. 22

MR. DAMMEYER: I kind of want to tag onto that. 23

When you talk about a license-free fishing area, who is the 24

demographic? Is it sustenance anglers? Is the target 25

lcj 27

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

audience kids who maybe don’t need licenses anyway? I had 1

that question. And then you talked about kind of safety in 2

terms of it being like a safe area but I wonder if there is a 3

concern about those. 4

I know this Greensboro one, I don’t know how busy 5

that road is but it looks like certainly the better parking 6

lot is across the street if there is opportunity to allow a 7

parking on the grass kind of thing on that side of the street. 8

And then my imagination immediately goes to like, 9

all right, families going fishing and stuff like you have 10

noted here, the Perryville one looks fantastic. I wondered 11

about -- there is a giant, there is like a high-tension line 12

right there I saw in one of the photos. Is that fenced off or 13

anything? I was a dumb kid. I am still a dumb kid. 14

MR. SLOKOVITZ: The high-tension lines are sort of 15

on the interior inland portion of the site. When I walking 16

around doing my assessment, I didn’t really sense that it was 17

a safety issue. 18

MR. DAMMEYER: You were a smarter kid than I was. 19

MR. SLOKOVITZ: That is a good observation. The 20

Greensboro site does involve crossing the street after those 21

first four or five spots fill up. In one of my slides, there 22

was a small parking area right near the river that is with a 23

wooden rail fence around it. 24

You can fit about four cars there. That is where 25

lcj 28

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

all the locals go right now but after that, that will fill up 1

and then they do have to cross the street and use the old fire 2

department property. 3

I think that is fine on weekdays. It might be a bit 4

of a safety consideration on weekends. It is the classic case 5

of look both ways before you cross, and I could see kids with 6

buckets and rods trying to follow their parents across the 7

street. It might be a bit of a safety consideration on the 8

busier weekends. 9

And we have actually had safety problems on other 10

sites like Chestertown with cars passing by. 11

MR. DAMMEYER: I was going to interrupt and ask if 12

you guys had experience -- if you did something like that, are 13

the towns willing to put in a crosswalk or some signage and 14

that kind of thing. 15

MR. SLOKOVITZ: I think that varies from town to 16

town. I didn’t go into a lot of detail on the signage but the 17

local town jurisdiction or county public works department is 18

responsible for putting in the signs, our signs, for the free 19

fishing area. 20

And the standard signage is the left arrow on one 21

border, a right arrow on the other border to surround the site 22

and then one central sign. And it says, free fishing area. 23

No license required at this site. 24

And we would appreciate if they would occasionally 25

lcj 29

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

check the signs because we have had some problems with like 1

theft and vandalism and kids using them for target practice. 2

MR. DAMMEYER: That was me. I am sorry. 3

MR. EBERHARDT: Erik, could I address one more issue 4

on your question about demographics? Yes, there are a number 5

of children who locally can walk to that but as important in 6

our mind is the fact that if you understand the demographics 7

of Perryville and so forth, we have a 360-acre VA hospital 8

attached to the town. They have outsourced patients, if you 9

will. So we have a large number of group homes for veterans 10

who are within walking distance. 11

So our goal was to make it available for them as a 12

recreational opportunity as well. 13

MR. DAMMEYER: For a wider range of folks, yes. 14

That sounds good. I like that. 15

MR. GRACIE: I need some clarification first of all. 16

I am looking at this map and I can’t tell the current from the 17

marked for study ones based on the legend. 18

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Okay. 19

MR. GRACIE: And I assumed in the beginning, maybe 20

incorrectly, that the four you had listed are the only ones 21

being proposed and the others are existing? 22

MR. SLOKOVITZ: The others are existing, right. All 23

the sites on the map are existing except for Perryville, the 24

four that I discussed. 25

lcj 30

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: All right, that helps. The other thing 1

is I guess I would like to make kind of a generic comment. 2

The idea of thinning these out or not having too many in one 3

place kind of strikes me as not necessarily sound thinking. 4

We are trying to promote fishing, we are trying to get more 5

people to do this. 6

I am not worried about kids because they don’t need 7

a license if they are under 16 but their parents have to have 8

a license if they are with them so we are going to encourage 9

families by having free fishing areas. I can’t imagine that 10

we would lose significant revenue by having too many of these. 11

What we might do is get more people interested in fishing. 12

So I kind of -- I am reacting negatively to the idea 13

of necessarily thinning things out. I think the criteria you 14

have here are great. The fishing quality is important, and I 15

don’t know that -- if it is only good at one time a year, if 16

that means anything because a lot of people don’t go fishing 17

in the middle of the day in the summertime anyway. 18

And the springtime fishing up in this upper bay is 19

pretty good, and the upper bay gets pretty dead after that if 20

you know it. I don’t need to consider that a negative. 21

The public safety issue is one, and if we are not 22

talking partnerships with the towns that want these or the 23

areas that want these, and they are not willing to accept some 24

responsibility, that ought to be a negative too. And that is 25

lcj 31

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

not really in here. I heard somebody say a town is willing to 1

put up signage or help to maintain your signs or let you know 2

if they are losing them. So I think that should be one of the 3

criteria also. 4

It sounds to me like you made a pretty strong case 5

for Perryville with your evaluation but I want to speak in 6

favor of being free and open about including these things. 7

There is an awful lot that we could be doing in this state to 8

promote fishing that we are not doing, and for various 9

reasons. 10

Some of them cost a lot of money. This doesn’t, and 11

it is a very positive thing. And I think we should be liberal 12

in doing more of it not thinking about how to ration it out. 13

MR. TRAGESER: Is the existing free-fishing area in 14

Charlestown well-utilized or does that $50 parking permit 15

issue strangle that a little bit? And if they opened up the 16

other one, if you flip-flopped, if you close that one down and 17

opened up the one in Avalon Park, would that still be a 18

parking cost issue there as well? 19

MR. SLOKOVITZ: My understanding is if you went to 20

the Avalon area, you will still have to pay the $50 annual 21

parking fee. To answer your question on Charlestown, it was a 22

very popular site and it still is, it just has limited parking 23

right at the pier there, and then I think there were problems 24

with people parking all over the residential neighborhood 25

lcj 32

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

there. And that is when the parking permit was instituted. 1

It wasn’t -- initially when we first established the 2

site, there was no parking issue. There were no fees, no 3

nothing. And then I guess there was an issue with a lot of 4

anglers started fishing there, and then they started running 5

out of parking spots, parking all over the neighborhood. 6

And then the town went ahead and instituted the $50 7

fee. 8

MR. TRAGESER: So did the fee in essence start to 9

reduce the number of people who go there? 10

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Yes, we have had complaints. We 11

have had complaints about the parking fee. And I think it 12

does sort of hurt or defeat somewhat the purpose of the free 13

fishing area. 14

And regarding Jim’s comments, I understand that he 15

doesn’t want to be too restrictive. I am just, in terms of 16

giving out sites, I am just -- in our current environment with 17

license revenue, it is just something that I consider. I am 18

not opposed to Jim’s viewpoints. I am just pointing out times 19

are little bit tough with budgets and I am a little bit 20

sensitive about license revenues. 21

MR. TRAGESER: The Charlestown is approximately how 22

far from where the Perryville site would be? I know it is not 23

walking distance. 24

MR. EBERHARDT: Eight miles? 25

lcj 33

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. TRAGESER: Eight miles, okay. 1

MS. DEAN: Mr. Vice Chair/Chairman sir, I am 2

prepared to make a motion if you will accept it. 3

MR. LANGLEY: I don’t see any other cards up. 4

MOTION 5

MS. DEAN: I will make the motion and then if I get 6

a second I will provide rationale. I would like to make the 7

motion the Sport Fish Advisory Commission support instituting 8

the Perryville site as a license-free fishing area as well as 9

the Greensboro and Crisfield site and remove the Charlestown 10

sites as license-free fishing areas, both of them. And if I 11

get a second, I would offer some rationale. 12

MR. NEELY: Second. 13

MS. DEAN: I think that we have made a good case for 14

the Perryville case, and I think the parking fees prohibit the 15

Charlestown sites from being -- from having any advantage to 16

the license-free fishing areas. 17

I agree with Jim that we should have areas 18

throughout the state and we should be more inclusive than 19

exclusive. My only concern is that I still feel, and I think 20

I shared this the last time we went over this, that the 21

southern Maryland area is being excluded. So that is my 22

rationale. 23

MR. LANGLEY: I do have one question for you, Erik, 24

regarding the Crisfield site. That is when you go down to 25

lcj 34

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Crisfield, that is the main dock area when you go down -- is 1

that the same area where they catch the tour boats and whatnot 2

as well there? 3

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Yes. 4

MR. LANGLEY: Would there be a conflict between 5

multiple activities happening on that dock, which concerns me? 6

If you have kids, God bless them, I love them to death. I had 7

24 of them on my boat the other day. 8

(Laughter) 9

MR. LANGLEY: But they like to cast if you give them 10

a line and whatnot, and how -- did the town of Crisfield put 11

in that application or as, you know, that specific location? 12

I think it is great to have one I am just not 13

sure -- 14

MR. SLOKOVITZ: The town of Crisfield requested that 15

site, and I actually have not done a real -- I haven’t done a 16

real recent on-site observation on the boat traffic there. 17

That could be an issue but it could be possible to work around 18

the boat traffic by strategically placing the signs to keep 19

the fishing activity away from areas where boats are docking, 20

coming and going. 21

We are actually doing that at one site at Havre de 22

Grace. The pier at the end of Congress Street Park, there is 23

actually a skipjack tour boat adjacent to one side of the pier 24

but we have the signs marked so that folks are not sort of 25

lcj 35

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

focusing on that side of the pier and they are casting either 1

straight out or away from the skipjack. 2

So we have done some strategic placement of the 3

signs to try to discourage folks from fishing in a high boat 4

traffic area. It might be possible to do something like that 5

in Crisfield too. I just haven’t taken a really close look at 6

the boat traffic situation. We could probably work with 7

signage. 8

MS. DEAN: That could come out in public comment 9

too. 10

MR. BLAZER: Again, I think where we are in the 11

process, you are recommending us to explore these to start to 12

put together kind of a regulatory package to scope. We can 13

work a lot of those details out as we move forward. 14

We are basically getting a recommendation to kind of 15

move these on and try to work some of those issues through. 16

MR. NEELY: Have we ever taken away a free-fishing 17

site in the past? 18

MR. SLOKOVITZ: Yes, there have been a few, a 19

handful of sites. I think over the last 10 years -- I can’t 20

list them all for you but there were safety and accessibility 21

issues with some of the sites that were removed. 22

There was also a controversial site in Chestertown 23

on the main bridge going across the river, where cars are 24

passing within a foot or two of the anglers. Our 25

lcj 36

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

recommendation was to remove it but there was a lot of 1

opposition, I recall, from the town, and I guess we decided to 2

keep it but we still have concerns about safety there. 3

So a few have been removed over the last 10 years. 4

MR. NEELY: I know I seconded Rachel’s, and we have 5

a motion on the floor, but my bias is because it is a slam 6

dunk is to approve the Perryville location, and based on your 7

suggestions, is to remove that Charlestown site, but in the 8

interest of moving this discussion along, I will support 9

Rachel’s motion. 10

MS. DEAN: John, did the motion not do what you 11

wanted it to do, then? 12

MR. NEELY: I thought there were other sites that I 13

thought we don’t enough information on but I certainly feel 14

like Perryville should be voted on with acclamation. 15

MS. DEAN: And again this is just to send it to 16

scoping, right, so we are not final approval stamped. 17

MR. BLAZER: You will see this in a regulatory 18

package when we get to that point. 19

MR. LANGLEY: We have a motion on the floor to 20

accept Perryville, Crisfield and Greensboro and remove 21

Charlestown, is that correct? Okay, and we have a second. I 22

think we are ready to put it to a vote. All in favor? 23

(Show of hands) 24

MR. LANGLEY: Opposed? 25

lcj 37

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

(No response) 1

MR. LANGLEY: Motion passes unanimously. 2

MR. DeHOFF: Now was that the removal of both 3

Charlestowns? 4

MR. LANGLEY: Yes. 5

MR. SLOKOVITZ: One was a proposed site that hasn’t 6

actually been added and one is existing. And I just would 7

just comment quickly that we have not had any applications 8

from the southern Maryland area that Rachel pointed out but I 9

am aware that we do have a gap in the map, just for the 10

record. 11

MR. BLAZER: And again, if there are ideas and the 12

county commissioners and local jurisdictions -- 13

MS. DEAN: Oh, I am on it. 14

MR. BLAZER: Southern Maryland is going to be 15

covered soon. 16

MR. EBERHARDT: Thanks for allowing me to address 17

you early. 18

MR. LANGLEY: We are going back -- and thank you for 19

your patience. A far as the order, the NRP activity, we have 20

Lt. Timothy Grove. 21

NRP Activity Report and Priorities 22

by Lt. Tim Grove and Sgt. Randy Bowman, MD DNR NRP 23

LT. GROVE: Good afternoon. You didn’t get any 24

stuff in your packet so I am going to pass around some of 25

lcj 38

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

the -- these are the citations that were issued in the last 1

quarter from April through June. 2

We pushed to hand enter most of them so this should 3

be fairly accurate with what has come in through the end of 4

June. You can see officers have been out there doing quite a 5

bit of enforcement. 6

They are working on the warnings. We are still 7

giving warnings. Don’t look at all the zeroes and think there 8

is nothing going -- the warnings, as I had explained before 9

are being entered through our new e-ticket system. And they 10

are trying to compile those in a format that would be 11

understandable to all of us as we speak. And if I get those 12

before the end of the meeting, I will push those out. 13

A great deal of enforcement has been done, 14

especially on the tidal fishing. A large number of citations 15

have been issued there, over 742 just for tidal. The 16

crabbing, of course, is going to be picking up but 44 17

citations for undersized crabs is not bad for this time of 18

year. 19

And of course the clamming is negligible, and any 20

oystering, we have got a few there. A couple, at least in the 21

sanctuary, is a good citation as well, so if you have any 22

questions on any of those, give me a heads up and I can try to 23

clarify them a little more for you. 24

You will be seeing that our breakdowns are probably 25

lcj 39

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

going to be getting more and more detailed and not as general. 1

You will see actual numbers. When we get to the e-tickets, 2

you will see actual numbers for actual defined violations 3

instead of them being grouped into, you know, general 4

categories or brackets. 5

Of course, like I said, we are gearing up our -- 6

crabbing is there and will be picking up through the rest of 7

the summer. The striped bass season up on the Susquehanna had 8

some good cases that were being shown in here for the 9

targeting of striped bass in the prohibited areas and that 10

kind of thing. 11

We have got a few good citations off of that and at 12

least one of those has gone to court and was adjudicated and 13

we did get a guilty verdict on that one. 14

Questions and Answers 15

MS. DEAN: I just wanted to ask a question really 16

quick. For the possession of the undersized striped bass, are 17

you finding that these people are also getting cited for not 18

having a fishing license or do these or are those people -- 19

they do have fishing licenses so is there a relationship? 20

LT. GROVE: I would say there is a direct 21

correlation. We are getting some demographics that are in 22

possession of the striped bass. It is maybe a cultural thing. 23

I know -- 24

MS. DEAN: I understand. I know we are going to 25

lcj 40

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

talk about that later but I am wondering, you know, when they 1

do get that license they are getting that information but 2

obviously if they don’t have a license at all they are not 3

getting information so I kind of wanted to -- I know we will 4

carry that over later. 5

So it is -- usually if it is one it is the other? 6

Do you know? 7

LT. GROVE: I won’t say that there is any 8

consistency there because a lot of it is just species 9

recognition for some of these user groups. They just don’t 10

know what, in fact, they are catching. 11

MR. WOMMACK: I have got an assignment for you but it 12

is not dealing with this directly. So can we talk about this? 13

I wanted to ask a few questions about something. 14

In the upper Patapsco Bay, and when I say upper I 15

mean all the way to the Inner Harbor. 16

Now do you guys still hold jurisdiction in the water 17

there? 18

LT. GROVE: Everywhere in the state. 19

MR. WOMMACK: The reason I ask that question is 20

because I go to different fireworks and concerts all over, you 21

know, with the boat: Choptank, Crisfield, Hart-Miller Island, 22

Rock Hall, et cetera but when you go into the Inner Harbor 23

there and you are out of the channels and you have got these 24

Pier 6s and different concerts, they are having concerts, 25

lcj 41

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

well, what happens is the Baltimore City Police come in by 1

water and they are forcing you to go up against the bulkheads 2

at $120 for 4 hours of parking. 3

Now I might understand that for the big boats, that 4

are plugging in for shore and things like that but for the 5

smaller boats that are out of the channel, why is there a 6

problem for them to anchor up? 7

LT. GROVE: It shouldn’t be but I will not give you 8

a 100 percent answer because I am not familiar with all the 9

regs there. I am not the commander of that area. So I will 10

push that to -- 11

MR. WOMMACK: Because it seems like they are just 12

gouging the people to force them to go up against the 13

bulkheads, and I think $120 for 4 hours, and you can go 14

downtown and park in the garage all day for $24, is 15

ridiculous. So I definitely have a concern of what is going 16

on there. If somebody can find out for me. 17

I am not saying you guys are enforcing that but I am 18

seeing the Baltimore City water department enforce that. 19

LT. GROVE: I will be very interested to pass that 20

along to the area commander and see if that is something they 21

are even aware of. Or if that is a common practice they are 22

aware of. 23

MR. LANGLEY: Any other questions? 24

MR. O’BRIEN: Yes, I have been talking to the Coast 25

lcj 42

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Guard relative to situations where obviously some people are 1

taking out people for hire and it is illegal. 2

And sometimes there is again this 3

language/communication things but I think this is more 4

prevalent than people think. So perhaps you all and the Coast 5

Guard will be talking soon about this. 6

LT. GROVE: Like I said, I know we are aware that 7

there are a lot of unlicensed chartering services going on, 8

and it is not just the fishing aspect. We have some livery 9

operations that are going on jet skis in the upper bay area as 10

well that we are trying to get a handle on. 11

It is just a -- it might require some creative 12

enforcement or undercover work in order to be able to prove 13

that and substantiate it in court so we are able to get a 14

solid case. 15

MR. O’BRIEN: Cooperation with the Coast Guard I 16

think is the key thing. I know they would appreciate it and I 17

think you all would appreciate it. 18

I have been looking at the violation situations for 19

months, and I haven’t seen anything on this. 20

LT. GROVE: That is a hard one. Like I said, that 21

is a hard one to just -- to kind of do as an ad hoc 22

enforcement where you would just come upon it. It is usually 23

going to be something that has be to -- 24

MR. O’BRIEN: I am sorry. I can’t hear you. 25

lcj 43

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

LT. GROVE: Like I said, that is not an enforcement 1

action that you generally just come upon. It is one that 2

usually we get information on or we will see some 3

advertisement inadvertent on community bulletin boards, the 4

Internet, on these social media sites, which is -- more and 5

more of our enforcement is being gleaned off of social media 6

so we will, as we get information on those will try to address 7

them. 8

MR. DeHOFF: Lieutenant, I think last meeting you 9

mentioned that there were one or two cases of this that you 10

had heard of or were kind of aware of and you gave us a little 11

bit of it. Anything ever come up from those? 12

LT. GROVE: I will have to check and see if they 13

actually filed charges and have gone somewhere. Like I said, 14

we did have one. It may have actually been about a year and a 15

half ago, two years ago now, up on the Susquehanna where we 16

got information, and I know they did charge that subject, and 17

I believe he did end up paying out on all of those. 18

We got information that he didn’t necessarily stop 19

but we haven’t been able to substantiate that. 20

(Slide) 21

MR. BLAZER: Really quick, I asked Paul to -- NRP 22

put out a Tweet, Facebook, social media just what they did 23

over the Fourth of July weekend, just so you can see some of 24

the numbers. 25

lcj 44

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

They also had put out a -- two or three charts, maps 1

of M-LINE coverage. You know, M-LINE is the enforcement tool 2

that kind of tracks, and they just took stills of boat traffic 3

when the Blue Angels were in the Severn River Fourth of July 4

weekend. Tuesday it was at like 2:00 p.m. 5

And it just showed you where all the boats were in 6

the bay, and to me -- you always try to think big picture but 7

that was just a really interesting graphic of seeing where all 8

the boat traffic was on the bay on that afternoon, kind of 9

around where all the fireworks were going to be, you know, on 10

the shore. 11

And me living in Worcester County, Ocean City was 12

just chock full, right behind Ocean City but behind Assateague 13

Island and Chincoteague Bay, there were two boats. You know, 14

so I know where I am going next year. 15

(Laughter) 16

But I will make sure that we get those pictures and 17

send those to you. I just think it is really -- you know, we 18

always, all of our advisory committees, we talk about NRP and 19

there are a lot of issues going on. Those guys were super 20

busy. 21

They are doing a lot. They have got a lot to take 22

care of and this was a really good graphic of what NRP is 23

having to deal with on the Fourth of July, you know, on 24

holidays and weekends, and Blue Angels and specials events. 25

lcj 45

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

They do a great job. They can’t be everywhere but I 1

just wanted to make that comment. And I will send you those 2

pictures because I got them from Colonel Ziegler the other 3

day. 4

MR. DeHOFF: I know they were here a little over a 5

year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, about when we were 6

first bringing that out. Could we possibly get them back to 7

see how it has worked over the last couple years and have 8

them -- 9

MR. BLAZER: That is a great idea. We can do that. 10

Just those pictures were just kind of very eye-opening to me 11

of just all the vessel traffic on those days. 12

MR. GRACIE: I hate to do this to you but I would 13

like to add an item to the agenda. I just got an e-mail from 14

David Sutherland, who couldn’t be here. It has to do with 15

Mallows Bay, some information I don’t think we have. So I 16

need to bring that up today before we go. 17

MR. LANGLEY: Is at the end of the meeting okay, 18

Jim? 19

MR. LANGLEY: That is fine. Okay, do we have any 20

other questions for Lt. Grove? 21

MR. DAMMEYER: How many officers were on duty that 22

weekend? That is a lot of numbers? 23

LT. GROVE: I can’t give an exact total but I know 24

that for the most part, on holiday weekends, we are pretty 25

lcj 46

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

much at all-hands on deck so there may be have been a handful 1

of people who were -- who had preapproved leave or medical 2

leave -- 3

MR. DAMMEYER: I can’t imagine checking that many 4

boats. Well done. 5

LT. GROVE: Yes, that is an all hands on deck time. 6

MR. LANGLEY: All right, Lt. Grove. Thank you for 7

the presentations and thank you for what you do. 8

LT. GROVE: I was going to say this was -- Sergeant 9

Bowman was going to give you the briefing on the ferry bridge 10

and things that have been occurring with the striped bass down 11

there, the enforcement they have been doing. 12

SGT. BOWMAN: Sergeant Bowman. I work Dorchester 13

County. They asked me to come up here and give a brief of 14

what has been going on, on the fishing creek bridge not the 15

ferry bridge but they are both right there together. 16

I think everybody saw a lot of numbers come out of 17

that area in a short period of time. 18

DR. BLAZER: If I can really quick, because I think 19

this issue came up at TFAC. So I will just give a little bit 20

of a background for the Sport Fish Advisory Committee. 21

If you have followed a lot of our NRP and DNR press 22

releases this spring, there were some significant striped bass 23

enforcement actions down in lower Dorchester County. 24

And TFAC, because there are a couple people from 25

lcj 47

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Dorchester County on that group, asked for more information 1

and some detail about it. But since it was predominately -- 2

it was hook-and-line fishermen fishing from the bridge, we 3

asked NRP to be here to give you guys a little bit of an 4

update. 5

So with that -- I just wanted to kind of set the 6

stage. I don’t remember if sport fish had asked for it but I 7

know TFAC did but we thought it would relate to both groups. 8

SGT. BOWMAN: I will give a little bit more detail. 9

More than 100 people were charged there in like three months. 10

And they had anywhere from 3 fish to up to 245 striped bass. 11

And a lot of people had more than 30 apiece. 12

So a lot of this was during the closed season, some 13

of it during the spring season, and those numbers we stopped 14

at in June. I mean, there are still tickets but it is not 15

ongoing now because it depends on if the fish are there. So 16

if there fish are there, the fishermen are there, so that is 17

kind of how that rolls. 18

But there was probably close to 300 citations 19

written there in 3 months on that one bridge. So a lot of the 20

demographics are Hispanic, probably 90 percent of the people 21

who got tickets there. 22

They are from -- most people who are coming there 23

are from P.G., Montgomery and Northern Virginia. I am not 24

saying there are not some other people but that is the 25

lcj 48

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

majority of the people. 1

And these are people whom we have caught -- a lot of 2

them are people we have caught before. So it is not -- these 3

people know what they are doing. Ninety percent of it is 4

surveillances, that we are watching these guys fish. They 5

catch their fish, they hide their fish. So it is not like 6

somebody throws some fish in a bucket, gets checked on the 7

bridge, gets a ticket. 8

So in a lot of cases, the people are hiding their 9

fish, leaving. Seeing if they get stopped and if they don’t 10

get stopped, they come back and get the fish. 11

So it goes even a little bit further because the 12

more that we catch these people, the trickier they get because 13

they know that we are after them. And without getting into 14

everything that we do because I am not going to tell you all 15

that, but a lot of the officers -- I mean, we only have a few 16

officers working in the county. There are six officers in 17

Dorchester County. 18

So when we set up and work surveillances with three 19

officers at night, and then we have other people off, it is a 20

strain on do you check crabbers -- I mean, you have to pick 21

your poison, and whatever is the biggest thing going on, we 22

try to stick with that and answer the complaints as best we 23

can. 24

And we had court in June and we have 100 percent 25

lcj 49

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

convictions so it is not -- we do fine with the courts but a 1

lot of these cases are plea agreed on because the people who 2

are getting caught know that they are going to get found 3

guilty. So -- and it is such a large number. There were 86 4

cases in June in the court on one day. 5

So the judge does want plea agreements because he 6

doesn’t want to hear 86 cases. So the majority of the people 7

are getting anywhere from $400 to $750. So if you catch a 8

group -- I will give you an example. 5 people got caught with 9

86, and they took a plea agreement of $750 each. 10

So that is a lot of money, 5 times 5. So that is -- 11

the majority of people are walking out of there with $500 12

fines. So it is not like they are getting a slap on their 13

hand. I mean, I would feel that. I don’t know what the rest 14

of the people would feel but -- 15

And then we also had some repeat offenders that -- 16

we had one guy who has been charged for fishing on a suspended 17

license three times. And he was caught three years ago there, 18

him and group of 198. So that tells you that even with the 19

fines, he keeps coming back. And he gets trickier but he has 20

been caught the last two years and this year for fishing 21

suspended. 22

And he received $1,500 in court fines so he is 23

getting fined, and the court is finding him guilty. So the 24

officers are doing a good job with their testimony. Their 25

lcj 50

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

surveillances, all the information that they are receiving. 1

And they are working the hours. So a lot of these 2

guys are splitting their shifts and trying to work two -- in 3

the day and work at night. I mean, they are giving it their 4

best with the limited amount of people that we have. 5

I really feel like signage would not change much 6

there just by watching them. And I don’t think it is 7

something that is new this year, just so people understand. 8

Because a lot people think, oh, this is -- it probably was 9

publicized a little bit more. And there were a few more fish 10

there this year because the warmer year, so the fish showed up 11

earlier. 12

And it seemed like every time we went down there and 13

worked, the fish were biting. So if you have the fish biting 14

and you have the right anglers there, you are going to catch 15

every one of them. That is just how it works. 16

And in years past, we might sit there four hours, 17

and the fish never bit. You could have all the right anglers, 18

and if you don’t have the fish, you don’t catch them. I mean, 19

that is just how it works. 20

So this year it just seemed like every time they 21

fished, they caught them and we caught them. 22

So I think that is why the numbers are what they 23

are, and that the officers took a proactive approach and 24

really, you know, went after it when they saw what these 25

lcj 51

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

people were doing. I mean, they caught close to 2,000 fish, 1

you know, so it is not a little number of fish. 2

2,000 fish for those fishermen off of one bridge. 3

So it is significant. I hope that answers some questions if 4

anybody had any questions about it. 5

MR. LANGLEY: Any other questions? Captain Ed, do 6

you have a question? 7

MR. O’BRIEN: No, go ahead. 8

MR. LANGLEY: All right. Thank you, Sergeant 9

Bowman. It is, you know, disheartening that they just keep 10

repeating, doing the same thing. I guess you are not going to 11

change the makeup of a person. If they are going to break the 12

law, they are going to break the law. 13

As far as structure, as far as repeat offenders, 14

does the fine -- 15

SGT. BOWMAN: So the fines do change. So with 16

striped bass, the first offense is $1,500. The next is 17

$2,000, I believe, and then it goes on up. 18

If they are charged second addendum, which a second 19

offender charge, so the penalties can go up, and once they are 20

charged second offender, they could actually face jail time, 21

which I am not sure -- 22

Each court varies, judge to judge. Some judges, it 23

doesn’t matter if you bring in somebody with 100 fish, he 24

might just say $100. So it is a judge -- the judges vary 25

lcj 52

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

throughout the whole state. 1

And people need to realize that it is not the 2

officer’s case. It is just that is how that judge feels about 3

it. If he had a bunch of people murdering people or something 4

and then you come in and the guy had 20 fish. And it is just 5

how it is. 6

Now we are lucky where we are because our judge 7

sometimes says, the state did you a good job because I would 8

have given you more. So we have a good judge and we don’t 9

want to ruin that so we want to keep strong cases and just 10

keep on doing what we are doing. 11

But I don’t know the way to stop them from doing it 12

other than catching them and just being a deterrent because 13

they know we are there because they are looking for us when we 14

go fishing. Because the fines aren’t deterring them. Because 15

that one guy has paid over $5,000 in the four years and he 16

keeps on coming back. 17

LT. GROVE: That is one thing we hear quite a bit 18

when you are talking about the striped bass. On the 19

Susquehanna, guys in the closure area, we get a large amount 20

of New Jersey/Delaware guys coming in, and they have been 21

caught two or three times for targeting during the closure. 22

And their statement to that is that is the cost of 23

doing business. They are willing to take those citations and 24

they will be back next year. 25

lcj 53

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

SGT. BOWMAN: And with that, most of our fishermen 1

will go to Matapeake, Kent Narrows and then they show up down 2

Fishing Creek. If they don’t catch anything there, they go to 3

Ocean City. So these people aren’t just targeting one area. 4

They know where the fish are, and that community is 5

tight and they talk among each other. And when they know 6

somebody is catching fish somewhere, everybody shows up. 7

And as far as a fishing licenses -- I know you asked 8

him about a fishing license or somebody asked him, the 9

correlation, the first year probably more people didn’t have 10

fishing licenses. Nowadays, the majority of them have fishing 11

licenses. 12

So it is not that they didn’t go out and get their 13

fishing licenses. They know they are going to get checked. 14

And we have gone up there and we have talked to the fishermen 15

even before we watched them, and they will say, we know they 16

are closed. We are not going to keep them. We are trying to 17

catch perch. 18

And then we sit there and catch them with 50 fish. 19

So I don’t know the perfect way to solve the problem other 20

than we just have to keep on enforcing it when the fish are 21

there. 22

MS. DEAN: Is this state property? You said it is 23

the bridge so -- or is it the county who -- 24

SGT. BOWMAN: The county owns the roadway and owns 25

lcj 54

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

the bridge. 1

MS. DEAN: So it would be a county commissioner that 2

would have a sign that says no fishing. 3

SGT. BOWMAN: Well, the state could put up signs but 4

they would have to get permission through the county 5

commission or the public roads through Dorchester. 6

MS. DEAN: Is there a lot of resident fishing? 7

SGT. BOWMAN: There is some but, I mean, that is not 8

our violators. 9

MR. LANGLEY: All right. Sergeant Bowman, thank 10

you. Thank you for all your efforts. All right, that leads 11

us right into Dr. Linda Barker with the Spanish outreach. 12

Spanish Outreach Initiative 13

by Dr. Linda Barker, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 14

DR. BARKER: So I know you all are going to be 15

disappointed that I am not throwing maps and charts and 16

histograms at you all today. 17

MR. GRACIE: We will get over it, Linda. 18

DR. BARKER: I am going to speak today with my 19

partner in crime year, Kevin. 20

MR. CHESLEY: I am Kevin Chesley. I work for DNR. 21

I have been two years with the department, and I am on the 22

Secretary’s team under the land resources, and Linda and I 23

kind of kicked of this pilot project last year to have an 24

education component in our parks directed at the Hispanic 25

lcj 55

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

community. 1

And the fishing violations, which we all just 2

learned about, was one of the reasons why we kicked off this 3

program. So we are about to tell you a little more about it. 4

DR. BARKER: What I am going to put up, as opposed 5

to my normal histograms and all that, that I do with you all, 6

this is the actual poster that Kevin and I took to a 7

conference this spring. 8

So I am here to talk about what is -- we are here to 9

talk about this year what has been titled Es Me Parque. Last 10

year this project, in its first year, was titled Vamos a 11

Pescar: Let’s go fishing. And it originated out of a 12

conversation I had with Jacob and Sarah early last spring 13

because I speak some poor Spanish. 14

And so when they would get calls from people who 15

have a citation and don’t understand it, they would call me in 16

to translate. So at the end of one of those conversations, we 17

were talking and they brought to my attention that the 18

citation database is heavily skewed toward Hispanic surnames. 19

At this point in time, the old DNR citation database 20

wasn’t so much searchable and certainly not by demographic. 21

So at this point in time, we have done about six spot checks 22

of monthly snapshots. And in every case that I have looked at 23

it, more than 70 percent of the surnames have been Hispanic. 24

So out of that conversation and that spot check and 25

lcj 56

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

then continually doing those spot checks, we started a pilot 1

project where the parks had been doing some things to reach 2

out to their Hispanic visitors who did not speak English. 3

Fisheries had done some things. NRP, water safety, in 4

particular, had done some things but we had never all gotten 5

together and tried to do something cohesive. 6

So what we started last year was -- I am going to 7

call it a two-pronged approach. We started having the 8

identification that we have a larger community, and then we 9

also had some targeted areas. 6 of our state parks are 10

90-plus percent Hispanic on the summer weekends. 11

These 6 state parks are literally locking their 12

gates between 9:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. in the morning because 13

the park is full. On holiday weekends, there are folks 14

sleeping in their car outside the gate the night before to get 15

in. 16

So there is a huge crush and a huge concentration of 17

Hispanic visitors. All of these parks offer fishing, so that 18

was how we got attracted to focusing on the parks. 19

So that being said, Sandy Point State Park had done 20

a survey -- pretty interesting statistics just in Sandy Point 21

State Park, where about 86 percent of their visitors 2 years 22

ago identified themselves as being Spanish speaking, and 20 23

percent of those said, you know -- 86 percent preferred 24

Spanish. 25

lcj 57

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

And then in some other research we did last year 1

connecting with members of the Hispanic community, we found 2

that 20 percent of the Hispanic community cannot read Spanish. 3

Okay. So there is a huge communication problem. And I know 4

we just heard about people who are intent but what we are 5

seeing is a huge shift in demographics in certain areas 6

becoming very heavily Hispanic, and there being a significant 7

communication barrier. 8

And a lot of these folks do want to follow the 9

regulations and the laws, they just don’t know what those are. 10

MR. CHESLEY: And this is not just Maryland. This 11

is throughout the country, especially in the metropolitan 12

areas. 13

DR. BARKER: When we went to the national 14

conference, Maryland was actually rather unique. Our little 15

program, which we ran with $3,000 last year, and had some 16

money left over, so we took a budget of nothing, and we did 17

two things. 18

So we did these outreach events in those state parks 19

that were heavily visited by the Hispanic community. Help me 20

out here, Kevin. Sandy Point -- 21

MR. CHESLEY: All the water-access parks. From 22

Sandy Point to Point Lookout on the bay to the Western 23

Maryland lake parks. 24

DR. BARKER: Patapsco. 25

lcj 58

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. CHESLEY: Patapsco too. People from Baltimore, 1

Prince George’s County, Howard County, they are driving all 2

the way out to lakes in Western Maryland, getting there by 3

8:00 a.m., to get in these parks. 4

So our populations are migrating, and we are focused 5

really on the education component. We are not the law 6

enforcement. We have that tool luckily in DNR but we are 7

coming together collectively to focus on the education 8

component. 9

DR. BARKER: So last year we did these outreach 10

events in those six parks. We did a combination of 11

educational activities and -- that were focused toward 12

children. So it was a lot of activities. 13

A lot of free games for the children, free casting 14

rods. We had seine net programs and did little images of the 15

fish and gave them out to the children and they matched them 16

with the fish. 17

A lot of water safety -- poster, coloring books, 18

that kind of thing, to bring the children in. And once the 19

children were in and it was a very safe environment, then we 20

had folks who were interacting with the parents, and we got a 21

lot of input from both park staff and from a lot of our 22

visitors that they had never had anyone to speak to in Spanish 23

because we always staff these events with Spanish-speaking 24

folks, both technical experts and then folks who can 25

lcj 59

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

translate. 1

And so we got -- so we would have games like this, 2

and we did everything in terms of posters as opposed to 3

handouts because this community all have smart phones. They 4

have better smart phones than my smart phone, let me just tell 5

you. 6

So we would do these games like this and we would 7

practice measuring fish and we would put this kind of 8

information out and we would encourage people to take pictures 9

with their smart phones. 10

We would get the park and Jacob to collect for us 11

the park regulations, the water safety regulations and the 12

fishing regulations applicable for that park. And we would 13

develop really big posters. 14

You see one here that has got the picture of the 15

fish, the regulation for the fish, and then here is the child 16

who is coming to play and he is talking to the parents. 17

And then we would have folks photograph that poster 18

with their smart phones so they had it on their smart phones 19

what was applicable for that area. 20

And then the other thing we did was we paid -- our 21

regulatory group paid for an intern, bilingual intern, last 22

year who took our recreational regulations and translated them 23

in Spanish. And we put that up on the Website, and then this 24

year we simply -- Jacob had to update that, and we got a 25

lcj 60

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

translator to verify the updated versions. 1

So we now, for the very first time in history, at 2

least have the ability to say we are providing this 3

information in your language. What works, what doesn’t. 4

Kevin will talk a little bit more about that. But our problem 5

is connecting with that community effectively, and that is 6

where we have a long way to go. 7

MR. CHESLEY: We have a long way to go but we are 8

going to have to be doing programs like these this year. 9

Luckily it is grant funded. We got a grant from Recreational 10

Boating and Fishing Foundation. 11

So hopefully we can get some outside money to 12

continue this, and this issue that we are having is not going 13

away. We just need to do a better job of connecting with the 14

community and educating the community. 15

DR. BARKER: Yes, Kevin and I have attended two 16

Webinars that are talking about the demographic shift in the 17

outdoor/recreation community. And the most significant growth 18

trend in all outdoor recreation activities is in the Hispanic 19

community. 20

The strongest growth trend among anglers is in the 21

Hispanic community. And one thing that I found interesting is 22

that this growth is being driven and is projected to more 23

significantly driven in the future by what is called among 24

these kinds of statisticians as domestic growth. 25

lcj 61

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: What does that mean? 1

DR. BARKER: Right. So domestic growth means 2

American-born citizens. So our anglers of tomorrow are going 3

to be a shift over to heavily, you know, a much higher 4

percentage of Hispanic. And they will be American citizens. 5

So a lot of what Kevin and I run into as far as it 6

being a politically rough area, and one reason we were really 7

anxious to have external funding for the project as opposed to 8

tax-dollar funding, is going to go away within 10 years. 9

We are going to be dealing with this community, this 10

heavy Hispanic community that is interested in outdoor 11

recreation. They love to fish. My God, do they love to fish, 12

and domestic Americans. 13

MR. CHESLEY: And because of that shift, the 14

retailers are well aware of this so they are more than willing 15

to help, and they are providing us with good financial 16

resources and educational resources for Linda and I to share 17

with other folks in our department because, you know, these 18

folks are the next drinkers of Coke too as well as obviously 19

recreational boaters, fishermen et cetera. 20

DR. BARKER: So the last thing is that the 21

changeover to this year from last year is that because our 22

small effort last year was considered to be very successful, 23

this year primarily through Kevin’s partnership-building 24

skills, we have really connected better with other areas in 25

lcj 62

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

DNR, and because also this education we have gotten through 1

these Webinars, is that we have got a lot heavier emphasis 2

this year on stewardship, on teaching the children -- teaching 3

them how to fish, teaching them what the impact of throwing 4

their trash away is when it gets into waterways, and that sort 5

of thing. 6

So we have a lot more activity and educational 7

activities for the children as we are sort of more acutely 8

thinking of them as the anglers and the boat people and all of 9

tomorrow. So that has been a little bit of the shift. 10

Where would we like to do better? We have in our 11

grant proposal to have a stronger Web presence through the DNR 12

Website, where we would put all this effort into translating 13

these materials, making them visually appealing. 14

But we don’t actually have an easy portal through 15

the DNR Website to get to that material. This is on the 16

Website but you have got to know it is there and click exactly 17

correctly to get down to it. 18

MR. CHESLEY: We are working on that. 19

DR. BARKER: Right. So that is one of the things 20

that we are really wanting to do because we know this 21

community is all smart phone and -- they are smart phone 22

savvy. So we would like to just get that material out so it 23

is more readily available. 24

And the other thing that I am not doing at all 25

lcj 63

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

anymore, Kevin is doing it, is we made some effort to connect 1

with the Hispanic community last year through the Governor’s 2

Commission on Hispanic Affairs, and I think you are taking 3

over our efforts to connect better with the community. 4

MR. CHESLEY: Like different other groups, the 5

governor has a commission for various religious groups, racial 6

groups, recreational groups. The liaison to the Hispanic 7

community is very involved, engaged in what we are doing, and 8

because of that she sends a commissioner to each one of our 9

events and they help us with translation services, better 10

connecting, and it is just so great for them to see. 11

These folks aren’t recreational or parks or outdoors 12

people. They had no idea that the community loves Sandy 13

Point, loves Greenbriar, loves Point Lookout, loves Patapsco 14

on the weekend. So it is coming along. We have got a lot of 15

work to do but we are trying. 16

Questions and Answers 17

MR. LYNCH: It seems to me that many bilingual 18

Websites start out on the front page, on the home page and 19

throughout, a simple button that says, translate, and then the 20

whole page is translated into that particular language. 21

And I can understand why corporations do it and why 22

they spend the money on it but it would seem to me, and I am 23

not a Web guy, but it would seem to me that if I were a native 24

Spanish speaker and I saw something that said en Espanol, I 25

lcj 64

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

would click on that. 1

And if all I saw was the same thing from English to 2

Spanish, I would get everything that we want everybody to know 3

as opposed to individually translating pamphlets and one thing 4

or another. Is that not a practical matter? 5

MR. CHESLEY: We have that on our Website. The 6

problem is the translation is not good. 7

MR. LYNCH: I understand it is not good but can it 8

not be made to be consistent with English? 9

MR. CHESLEY: That is kind of what we are working 10

on. We are making do with what we have, like the translate 11

button is there right now but we need to go back and refine 12

the message. 13

DR. BARKER: I think the other part of that, because 14

I tried that last year. I said, okay, I am this guy. How and 15

I going to get information. The more critical part on the 16

DNR Web page or Website is that unfortunately parts -- NRP, 17

fisheries -- we all put up our information in locked versions, 18

in PDFs or in images. And that translation service cannot 19

translate it. 20

So that is the more critical issue for us, is that, 21

yes, like Kevin is saying, the front pages can translate but 22

if you go, if you follow a DNR Website back to the technical 23

stuff, it is always being put up a current PDF or something. 24

That is the problem. 25

lcj 65

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

The second question I had -- it is a little bit more 1

looking beyond the headlights. And that is, you are saying 2

the growth component, the largest growth component is domestic 3

growth, correct? 4

These are citizens, and you are talking about 5

reaching children. Obviously that is what we want. They are 6

the anglers of tomorrow. Are they not being educated in 7

English? 8

DR. BARKER: Yes, most of the children do speak 9

English. 10

MR. LYNCH: And don’t we anticipate that this 11

domestic growth sector that is growing will continue to grow 12

with English as a primary language. Is that not correct? 13

MR. CHESLEY: Yes, but we want their parents to feel 14

comfortable taking them fishing. We want like -- we come 15

across so many kids in the parks. We are teaching them how to 16

cast. We are teaching them fishing identification. Their 17

parents approach them, and they don’t know that their kids can 18

go fishing without a license. 19

They don’t’ know they can take their kids fishing 20

and them not have a license. We even come across -- many 21

people at each part I came across, probably a dozen people 22

last weekend on Sunday, they didn’t know they could just go to 23

Dick’s Sporting Goods or the local tackle shop and buy fishing 24

licenses there. So that is what we are trying to solve here. 25

lcj 66

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. LYNCH: Do you find that, as often happens in 1

most cultures, where the children are first-born here in this 2

country and learn English as a primary language, actually 3

teach the parents rather than the other way around? 4

DR. BARKER: English? One of the things that is 5

interesting -- we saw this in the Webinar but I also know this 6

from my own experience because I have a lot of friends in this 7

community. 8

The second-generation in this community is a little 9

bit different from earlier immigrant waves in that they are 10

retaining their Hispanic culture. So the parents are not so 11

much anxious or -- in earlier immigrant waves, you wanted to 12

wash away anything that wasn’t American. 13

But America itself has changed and we are very 14

diverse. And so this immigrant wave is much more retaining 15

that. And like Kevin said, I mean, if you look 20 years down 16

the road, this is a baby project for right now. I understand 17

what you are saying. You are looking way down the road. 18

But we are just trying to get the word out right now 19

to a problem that exists right now. 20

MR. CHESLEY: We see really little kids, like 5-21

year-olds, come up to us with Mom and Dad and they are 22

translating for Mom and Dad. 23

DR. BARKER: And the other thing that is really 24

interesting about this cultural group that we learned through 25

lcj 67

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

this project is that these families typically recreate in 1

three to four generations. 2

So whereas our patterns are, you know, you will go 3

out, yourself, yourself with a friend, a couple buddies. No, 4

no. These are families of three or four generations, groups 5

of 6 to 13 people. They are there at 6:00 a.m. in the 6

morning. They are grilling three meals. 7

That is another good reason that we connect with the 8

parks because the parks are trash-free parks, which that model 9

works really for a small, white American nuclear family but 10

for a group of 14 people with babies who are there all day 11

long, that model doesn’t work very well. 12

MR. CHESLEY: And it is different with cultural 13

groups because the African American culture recreates in a 14

larger group than the Anglo. Not as big as the Hispanic but 15

significantly larger than the nuclear family. 16

MR. LANGLEY: All right, we have got three or four 17

more questions here. I am going to try to move on to Jim 18

here. 19

MR. GRACIE: Really quickly, just behind you, you 20

have some numbers up there, and I am curious as to what it 21

means. 86 percent prefer Spanish. 20 percent can’t read 22

Spanish. Do they read something else or are they illiterate? 23

DR. BARKER: They are illiterate. 24

MR. GRACIE: Okay, that wasn’t clear for me. 25

lcj 68

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. CHESLEY: The National Park Service came to 1

Sandy Point a couple years ago and gave us these statistics. 2

MR. GRACIE: Is it the older folks who don’t read 3

Spanish, and the kids do, I guess. 4

MR. CHESLEY: It could even be a 20-year-old. 5

DR. BARKER: Yes, that 20 percent is coming from the 6

immigrant group that is coming here. 7

MR. GRACIE: The new group, regardless of age. 8

DR. BARKER: Yes, that are illiterate. 9

MR. DeHOFF: And not necessarily part of our 10

domestic growth. 11

DR. BARKER: Correct. 12

MR. WOMMACK: I am kind of concerned because you are 13

going to have a lot of work ahead of you. I am just looking 14

at, for me, in a 75-mile radius, if I am towing a boat and I 15

want to go to Sandy Point, I am noticing, like you say, 6:00 16

a.m. in the morning, if I get there at 6:00 a.m. or 7:00 a.m. 17

or whatever, I might can get in. 18

But sometimes if it is anything later than that, I 19

notice that you can’t get in because the park is capacitated. 20

And then I am noticing in the parking lots that even with the 21

Spanish group, you don’t even have places now for the guys who 22

do go in with the boat and trailer. 23

So that kind of worries me in a way. I know you say 24

you make up a lot of these signs, but I really, in my personal 25

lcj 69

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

opinion, I believe a lot of these people are not American 1

citizens here because in the last couple of years, this has 2

gotten ridiculous going into these parks. 3

MR. CHESLEY: You don’t have to be an American 4

citizen to enter the parks. 5

MR. WOMMACK: No, I am talking about in this 6

country, illegals in this country. In the last couple of 7

years, it has really gotten ridiculous in Sandy Point. Any 8

holidays or whatever. And Point Lookout, because that is 9

another part that I travel. 10

And I am just wondering where are we going because 11

it feels like the average citizen who has been here for years 12

using these parks, and I have too, have never seen what is 13

going on now when it is time to try to go into the parks. 14

You can’t get in there with your family. And I am 15

saying, what do I have to do? Call you at 6:00 a.m. or 5:00 16

a.m. to find out if I leave home now, will I be able to get 17

into Sandy Point with my boat? 18

That is what we are kind of getting to with this 19

situation, and that might not be your job to deal with that, 20

but I am just wondering how much of this is actually citizens 21

of this country who are in these parks right now. 22

MR. CHESLEY: That is not the state’s concern. They 23

are public places. You go to the Grand Canyon, I was there 24

two months ago, it is mostly Chinese folks. 25

lcj 70

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

You go to -- 1

MR. WOMMACK: I don’t have a problem if they are 2

citizens. I don’t have a problem with that. I just wonder, 3

if you put a sign out there that says ICE is going to be 4

checking, how many people would not be in that park that day. 5

And that is what you are finding out with a lot of things on 6

social media. Even on social media, when that comes out of 7

there, they dissipate. 8

DR. BARKER: The point of your question though is 9

what is the realm of our project? Our project doesn’t 10

approach the question of citizenship at all. Our project is 11

simply interested in educating folks from a particular 12

demographic on what the rules are. 13

We have nothing to do with enforcement but we felt 14

like at least there should be the effort to make people aware 15

in their own language of what the fishing regulations are, 16

what the park use rules are, what the water safety rules are, 17

and that is the total extent of where we are going the first 18

year. 19

The second year we have added a 20

stewardship/education component for the children. 21

MR. LANGLEY: Captain Ed? 22

MR. O’BRIEN: Yes, back when we had a rockfish 23

moratorium, we used to take dozens of boats up to Baltimore 24

Harbor, and we took out African-American kids mainly. And it 25

lcj 71

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

was the same kinds of excitement, same kinds of joy. And I 1

think it is really good what you are doing with the Hispanic 2

situation. 3

But I wonder if we have let something go that got 4

off to a very promising start up in Baltimore. I just thought 5

I would mention that. 6

MR. CHESLEY: What was the program called? 7

MR. O’BRIEN: I don’t remember what it was, it was 8

an opportunity for charter fishermen to do something. The 9

state had a program. The state paid for it, paid the charter 10

boats. They got a good deal. We really got behind it, and 11

some of the same kind of joy that you were describing for the 12

Hispanics, which was great, fantastic. 13

But I think there is something that we started that 14

we didn’t continue, and certainly there should be another look 15

at that somewhere. 16

DR. BARKER: Kevin is your guy. He is always 17

looking for new projects. 18

MR. CHESLEY: Specifically to the parks, we have all 19

got to realize that people pay, in the state of Maryland, to 20

get in the parks so they are customers. So this all, we can 21

look at, as a huge customer service push from the state to 22

better connect with the folks who are paying half of the 23

budget of our state parks right now. 24

MR. DeHOFF: One of the things I see with Mack’s 25

lcj 72

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

comments is, not necessarily along with the citizenship thing, 1

but these waterfront parks have designated areas specifically 2

for boaters and fishermen. 3

And we have access to those, and that is specially 4

granted to us by the purchase of our passes and things like 5

that. With this influx of this demographic, this group has 6

now moved in to the point where these specially set-aside 7

items and benefits for the fishing community are no longer 8

available to us. 9

Like Mack says, if you don’t get there at 5:00 a.m., 10

you don’t get into to Sandy Point because they close at 9:00 11

a.m. You just can’t get in. Even if you have a pass, you 12

can’t get by the line to get to the swipe pad in order to get 13

in. 14

Sandy Point put in 22 boat ramps for the boaters, 15

but they bring this demographic in and they allow them to park 16

in the boating parking lot and they set up their campfires and 17

their barbecue grills in the little grass strips between cars. 18

And the rangers allow them to do that. 19

It is a fire hazard for the cars, it is unsafe for 20

people at the ramps. You just can’t get in, and there are 21

special signs all over the place that boaters have 24-hour 22

access. 23

Well, no, we can only get in when they are not open 24

because we have the pass and we can get in. If there is 25

lcj 73

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

anybody in line, we can’t get in, and that is a huge concern 1

for the boating and fishing community that I represent and we 2

all represent here in all the parks, and we need to find a 3

happy medium to allow everybody to coexist and use those 4

places. 5

One of the things that I have talked to, especially 6

at Sandy Point -- I know this gets a little outside of what 7

you are in -- but half the time they don’t even open the far 8

side of the park. They squeeze everybody into that corner and 9

they fill every single parking spot before they will open the 10

next lot. 11

And the traffic and congestion get so bad that the 12

boaters are not going there and it is becoming worse and 13

worse, and now the ones who want to continue to go can’t 14

because they are just mixing too many groups there and trying 15

to force everybody -- 16

MR. CHESLEY: We are well aware of that because 17

putting on my other hat in the land resource side with parks, 18

we are trying to maintain those spots for boaters because they 19

are paying for the ramps with their license and boat decals 20

and whatnot, and that is on us to educate the park rangers 21

that they need to maintain a spot for boaters. 22

However, there is the traffic ordeal. You know, 23

when you are tugging the boat and they shut off the park, what 24

are you going to do, hop around the line? So we are trying to 25

lcj 74

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

make different traffic patterns for specifically the boaters 1

at 10:00 a.m. when things are shut down at Point Lookout. 2

MR. DeHOFF: I got there at 6:00 a.m. in the morning 3

and I had to pass 4 cars, and I had to cross the double yellow 4

line and got a ticket for it. 5

MR. LANGLEY: I have John and Jim, and guys, we are 6

going to have to wrap this up and move on. 7

MR. NEELY: In the interest of bringing closure to 8

this conversation, these issues are not going to go away. I 9

think we would all love to hear you come back at a future 10

meeting but I personally would be interested to find out what 11

your counterparts are doing in terms of education and 12

communications in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Louisiana -- the 13

border states. 14

They have had far more experience for a longer time 15

to deal with these issues. Are you talking to these folks? 16

MR. CHESLEY: I could speak to that. I spent 10 17

years in the Interior Department so I am well-aware of the 18

issue. Ironically the Hispanic crowd is using the local parks 19

and the state parks much more than mostly the Western areas 20

because Arizona is all federal land, Nevada is all federal 21

land, California is mostly federal land in the southern part. 22

We are hitting the crunch a lot greater than they 23

are but the ones with state parks -- for example, for 24

Arizona -- they are doing similar programs that we are. 25

lcj 75

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: I am hearing we are trying to educate 1

the parks people. I would like to head up a subcommittee to 2

deal with Nita Settina and get a report in to the next meeting 3

of this commission. 4

This is a serious problem and it is a people and 5

management problem that has been going on for two years. I 6

have been hearing about it in the news three or four times. 7

And fisheries apparently doesn’t have enough clout 8

to make something happen. Nita Settina is the head of parks. 9

I will head the subcommittee if anybody wants to serve on this 10

commission. We will go to Nita, we will get her take on this 11

and we will make some suggestions and get a report at the next 12

meeting. 13

MOTION 14

MR. GRACIE: That is a motion. 15

MR. LANGLEY: I think that is great. Do we have a 16

second to Jim’s motion? 17

MR. NEELY: Sure. 18

MR. LANGLEY: All right. We have a second. All in 19

favor? I am sorry, any discussion? 20

MR. GRACIE: Public discussion? That is our 21

procedure. 22

MR. LANGLEY: Yes. Any public comment? 23

(No response) 24

MR. LANGLEY: All in favor? 25

lcj 76

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

(Show of hands) 1

MR. LANGLEY: Any opposed? 2

(Show of hand) 3

MR. LANGLEY: One. 4

MR. LYNCH: I would like to address that. I realize 5

you are passing it but I think it needs a little bit more 6

definition, Jim, in terms of what it is you are going to -- 7

MR. GRACIE: Get on the subcommittee and help us 8

form it then, Val. 9

MS. DEAN: It sounds like access would be one of the 10

issues. 11

MR. LANGLEY: All right, we are going to move on. 12

Jim, you are going to head that up? 13

MR. GRACIE: Yes, and I would be happy to listen to 14

anybody’s input on it. I haven’t defined what we are going to 15

do yet. 16

MR. LANGLEY: All right, thank you. 17

Policy Program 18

by Jacob Holtz, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 19

MR. HOLTZ: All right, so what is going around right 20

now is our scoping document. We weren’t able to get that to 21

you ahead time so we are going to go over that really quick as 22

part of my presentation. 23

First, the regulatory and penalty update: As far as 24

regulations that became effective, over the last quarter, we 25

lcj 77

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

had one regulation that would affect this commission, which 1

was the regulation for Urbana Lake Fishery Management Area. 2

We restricted the hunting in that area to archery only. 3

Previously there had not been any restrictions on weapons use 4

in that area. 5

Based on a site visit by the Wildlife and Heritage 6

Service, it was determined that as far as what would be most 7

appropriate for that area, which is a 60-acre parcel, about 20 8

of which is the lake, that it would best restricted to archery 9

equipment only, so that went effective. That will be 10

effective for this coming hunting season. 11

It doesn’t really affect fisheries but it affects 12

the fisheries management area. I have been asked to go as 13

quickly as possible because we are running behind schedule so 14

if you have any questions on that regs update, it look like we 15

have three actions that are open for comment right now. 16

Spiny dogfish, smoothhound sharks, also called 17

smooth dogfish, and blue crabs will be in the register this 18

Friday. So those comment periods are either open or about to 19

be open. If you have any comments we can either take them 20

here or you can send them to us in an e-mail. Or if any of 21

your constituent groups want to do the same, that would be 22

great as well. 23

We have updated both the commercial and recreational 24

fishing suspension list as well if you want to take a look at 25

lcj 78

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

those. Any questions on the regs update? 1

(No response) 2

MR. HOLTZ: Seeing none, I will move on to scoping. 3

As far as what we are scoping that you all would be directly 4

interested in, I will touch on clams in the Chester River 5

really quick just because you are going to see the word oyster 6

sanctuary there, and I just want to explain that really quick. 7

We currently have two conflicting regulations. One 8

says you are allowed to clam in this section of the Chester 9

River. The other says you are not. The intention was never 10

to prevent clamming in the Chester River, it was just that we 11

treated the old Chester River sanctuary like all of the other 12

quote, unquote old sanctuaries that were established prior to 13

2010. 14

When in fact we had had an exception for that area 15

since it had been created to allow clamming there. When we 16

created the new sanctuaries, quote, unquote new sanctuaries, 17

in 2010, we said you are not allowed to clam in old 18

sanctuaries, missing the fact that we decided to accept in 19

this one situation the Chester River, you were allowed to 20

clam. 21

So that has been a conflict in our regulations since 22

the regulations for oyster sanctuaries were written in 2010. 23

It just came to our attention and we are working to fix that 24

conflict to make it clear that it was never our intention to 25

lcj 79

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

affect clamming in that area. It was just an oversight on our 1

part. 2

Fishery management plans: We are looking to 3

incorporate two fishery management plans that have already 4

been signed and we are operating under. They were just never 5

incorporated in the regulation to become a legally effectively 6

document that we could write regulations based on. 7

That is tidal black bass and Spanish mackerel. The 8

tidal black bass fishery management plan was signed effective 9

in 2016. It underwent internal/external public review at the 10

time, including review by this commission. We just have not 11

incorporated it into regulation so we are looking to do that. 12

As well as Spanish mackerel, which has been used for 13

a fishery management plan since 1994, but somehow we managed 14

to miss that for these last 23 years as well. 15

The next item would be clarifying what exactly a 16

stinger hook is. We have had some people come to us and say, 17

based on the definition we have in regulation right now, the 18

back hook of a crank bait -- you know, crank baits usually 19

will have two hooks, one roughly in the middle at the body and 20

one at the tail. 21

They will say, well, based on how you have it 22

written, that hook on the tail kind of falls under the 23

definition of stinger hook, which is obviously not at all what 24

we intended when we created this rule for stinger hooks, and 25

lcj 80

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

certain times in the striped bass fishery. 1

So we are going to clarify that what we mean is, you 2

know, an additional hook at the back of the lure. The plan 3

for that would just be to scope on our Website, communicate 4

with our e-mail list and social media unless anybody else 5

thought we should go further with public hearings or whatnot. 6

The next couple items, Jonah crabs and the oyster 7

housekeeping, pertain more to the commercial side of things so 8

unless anybody wanted me to go through those right now, I was 9

going to skip over them to the next items that would pertain 10

to the recreational sector. 11

Striped bass in this first section, items two and 12

three, what we have been doing the last -- since we had to 13

take the reduction is we have been having to establish the 14

recreational size limit for the trophy season as well as the 15

recreational size and creel limits for the Atlantic Ocean 16

through public notice because what we ended up deciding on was 17

not what was in regulation. 18

But we do have the authority to change that through 19

public notice, and because initially there was -- if you 20

remember the first year under the reductions, we had the slot 21

limit. Then the next year we went and changed it to one fish 22

at 35 inches for the trophy season rather than have the slot 23

limit. 24

And so since then we have been changing it by public 25

lcj 81

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

notice because it was -- there was always the question of do 1

we really go through a regulatory process, which is fairly 2

time intensive and it requires a fair bit of public input. 3

Do we go through that if we are just going to do 4

something different next year and have to change it with the 5

public notice again? I think we are to point under the 6

reductions that we are fairly comfortable with where the 7

regulations are. I think everybody, I don’t think, loves 8

where we are but is at least grumbling along and saying we are 9

going to live with it until we can revise under the next 10

management regime. 11

And so we are looking to put those into regulation. 12

Instead of having the words, check the department’s Website, 13

in the fishing note in the fishing guide, we will actually be 14

able to put the size limit and the creel limit for those 15

fisheries because we were waiting for -- to see if ASMFC was 16

going to take further action. 17

We would say we are not going to put it in the 18

fishing guide because it might change, because now we know we 19

are waiting at least two more years, I think, to be changing 20

things up. We are looking to put these into regulations. It 21

is just going to be more clear to the public. It will be 22

easier for NRP to write tickets to the regulation rather than 23

to a public notice. 24

So that is the idea behind it. We are not looking 25

lcj 82

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

to change what we have been doing the last couple years, just 1

codify it into regulation. 2

Our plan was to scope it on the Website, e-mail, 3

Facebook, Twitter, unless anybody had requests for us to 4

further reach out to these affected communities. I would 5

again emphasize we are not changing what we have been doing 6

the last couple years. We are just putting it into regulation 7

rather than doing public notices to establish it. Does 8

anybody think we need to do anything more than that? 9

(No response) 10

MR. HOLTZ: Seeing nothing, moving on. We do have a 11

number of changes for the commercial fishery that the Striped 12

Bass Industry Workgroup has asked us to start scoping with the 13

public. Obviously I am going to discuss those with tidal fish 14

but everything we are currently scoping was unanimously 15

supported by the industry workgroup. Just as a heads-up on 16

that. 17

And then the last item would be trout, creating a 18

new delayed harvest area. This would be looking to add to the 19

south branch of the Patapsco River from west Friendship Road 20

in Howard County and Main Street in Carroll County upstream 21

approximately 1.1 mile to the upper boundary of the Hugg 22

Thomas Wildlife Management Area. 23

This would basically make up or create an additional 24

trout fishing opportunity on the Patapsco because what we are 25

lcj 83

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

looking at is when Bloede Dam gets removed, there is going to 1

be a ton of silt that gets washed downstream that is going to 2

put a fairly significant damper on the trout fishery that 3

currently exists below the dam. 4

We are going to take the trout that were allocated 5

to that section that is going to be affected by that silt and 6

distribute them both to this proposed delayed harvest area and 7

other nearby trout fishing areas. 8

So what we do there is again scope on the Website, 9

send it out to our e-mail contacts and Facebook and Twitter. 10

Does anybody think we need to reach out to any other -- reach 11

out to the constituency in any other way? Do you have any 12

ideas as far as is that going to be enough? 13

(No response) 14

MR. HOLTZ: All right. I think the last thing then 15

that I have on my agenda for me is just giving the group an 16

update on the Penalty Workgroup. 17

The Penalty Workgroup met last week. From this 18

commission, we had Bev with Val and David Sutherland attend, 19

and then from tidal fish we had Robert T. Brown and Bill 20

Scerbo. Myself, Christian Jeb* from the Attorney General’s 21

Office, Sarah Widman and Roy Rafter from the Natural Resources 22

Police. He is the lieutenant over in Area Two on the upper 23

Eastern Shore. They all sat in. 24

As far as some of the recreational penalties that we 25

lcj 84

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

looked at that you all might be interested in were adding -- 1

exceeding the recreational oyster limit at 90 day, which 2

matches the -- exceeding the recreational crabbing limit. 3

And we discussed, going back to what Sergeant Bowman 4

discussed earlier about these fairly egregious recreational 5

striped bass penalties, what we have noticed, and what the 6

sergeant mentioned, is how courts will often nol pros or 7

dismiss all but one charge and find them guilty on one of the 8

citations and not more. 9

Our penalty system is set up to basically compound 10

the violation when -- you know, for multiple violations. So 11

compound the penalty for multiple violations. So in light of 12

the judicial practices, we looked at adding additional tiers 13

for the more egregious striped bass violations. 14

What we discussed was -- so currently a single 15

striped bass violation for a recreational offender maxes out 16

at a year. So a year’s suspension. Once you hit 4 fish, it 17

is a year. And it doesn’t matter if you have 4 fish our 400 18

fish, it is year’s suspension for the one violation. 19

So we said for 10-20 fish we would make it 2 years. 20

So 4-9 fish would still be a year. 10-20 fish would be 2 21

years’ suspension and then if you exceed 20 fish in a single 22

violation, it would be a 5-year suspension. 23

Obviously you have the issue of guys not caring 24

about being suspended, like a couple of the fellows that the 25

lcj 85

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

sergeant mentioned. I guess from our perspective, we are only 1

able to control so much. The courts have it in them to fine 2

them more than they are right now. The courts have it in them 3

to put repeat offenders in jail. That is not happening. 4

So as far as us taking action to try to providing 5

some further deterrent, increasing penalties for a single 6

violation, because so many of these guys are ending up only 7

being convicted on one violation, is what we are looking at as 8

far as increasing deterrents there. 9

I was going to put together a summary of all the 10

recommendations from that workgroup. I don’t have that 11

together for you today and I apologize for that but I will get 12

that to Paul to send out as soon as possible. I think that is 13

everything from my shop unless anybody had any further 14

questions. 15

(No response) 16

MR. LANGLEY: All right, not questions. All right, 17

we have Tony, freshwater fisheries. 18

Freshwater Update 19

by Tony Prochaska, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 20

MR. PROCHASKA: All right, I too was advised to make 21

this quick. No names. 22

All right, so I wasn’t able to get any staff in here 23

to give a presentation because they are out in the field doing 24

their thing so you are stuck with me. 25

lcj 86

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

I am just going to go over a few of the, I guess, 1

highlights in the monthly reports that we have submitted over 2

the last quarter. I broke them down into basically 3

categories, and the first is angler access. 4

We were fortunate to purchase a piece of property on 5

Beaver Creek. John Neely actually visited that property. It 6

was purchased with open space money. It is on Beaver Creek as 7

I mentioned. It is a very important brown trout fishery. And 8

it has allowed us to have permanent access, our anglers to 9

have permanent access, to that stream. 10

It is about 2,000 feet or so of stream. One of the 11

things we are struggling with right now is how to raise some 12

of the structures so if any of you own a demolition company 13

and are interested in assisting us in removing an old house 14

and a garage, please let me know. 15

Next category: education and outreach. We had a 16

number of events over the last three months related to 17

education and outreach. I will highlight two. First was the 18

Stop the Snakehead Derby, Pennyfield Lock. 19

We actually had almost 400 anglers attend that 20

event, fishing in the C&O Canal. No one caught a snakehead 21

during the event but someone caught one just after the event 22

in the canal but really the purpose of the event was to raise 23

awareness, the impacts that snakeheads can have on aquatic 24

ecosystems. 25

lcj 87

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

They actually had a fish-cleaning station and they 1

actually gave away a lot of snakehead filets that were 2

captured by southern region staff. So it was good opportunity 3

for people to know how to identify snakeheads, target 4

snakeheads and understand that they can be a significant 5

impact to aquatic ecosystems. 6

The second event I would like to mention, education 7

and outreach, was our annual event at Big Run State Park, 8

Savage River watershed. 9

It is really the result of a commitment that we made 10

to reach out to individuals in Garrett and Alleghany counties. 11

The goal is to teach young anglers how to be proficient with 12

using lures and flies and targeting trout. How to be good 13

stewards of the resource, and it was a really good event. 14

We had 34 participants. We had a lot of donors: 15

rods, reels, tackle. Every participant got a rod, reel, a 16

tackle. You know, a number of items, and they rotated through 17

four different stations to learn how to de-hook a fish, how to 18

cast a fly or spinning reel, spin rod. What trout eat. So 19

basically how to become a better angler when it comes to trout 20

fishing using artificial lures, artificial flies. 21

How to handle fish and essentially be a good steward 22

of the resource. 23

So that was a really fun event. I got to cook the 24

food. A lot of the parents actually came up to me and others 25

lcj 88

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

and really conveyed their appreciation for the event. And our 1

donors included Bass Pro Shop, Bill’s Outdoor Center, Trout 2

Unlimited, the --- Chapter, was there. They volunteered their 3

time. So it was a gratifying experience for me. 4

Restoration efforts, another category. Frostburg 5

Pond, some people probably know the history there but there is 6

a pond, inline pond, in the upper Savage River watershed. 7

Basically it was an impediment so it was a blockage but it was 8

also warming water downstream so it was impacting brook trout 9

or native species. 10

So there was some restoration activity. Remove that 11

pond, remove the blockage. A natural channel was created. 12

And we have been monitoring that section of stream since 2011, 13

and this year we were back in there in June, and we had the 14

highest number of brook trout, multiple year classes. So it 15

is a good example of a success story for brook trout. 16

These are all in the monthly reports but I am just 17

trying to highlight some of the other things that, I think, 18

maybe people didn’t see. I know it is a lot to read. 19

Okay, stocking: largemouth bass, fingerlings. This 20

is for you, Roger. Tidal waters, tidal Potomac River. Last 21

year we stocked right around 100,000 fingerlings. This year 22

we are estimating probably around 350,000. 23

So we have already stocked about 300,000 and we have 24

a number of advance fingerlings that we are going to be 25

lcj 89

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

stocking over the next couple weeks. So we definitely ramped 1

up our efforts to stock largemouth bass in the Potomac as well 2

as the upper bay. And we got Manny and --- working to do 3

that. 4

Let’s see, next category. So last time we had this 5

meeting, you guys met John Mullican. He gave you a 6

presentation on Northern pike and muskie. So I just wanted to 7

give you some of the preliminary findings with the muskie 8

tracking work. 9

We tagged 14 fish -- I hope you guys remember. We 10

had 7 females and 7 males. They were located throughout the 11

spawning period, which is great. We go out every other week, 12

so through that work we identify some of the key spawning 13

sites for muskie and also characterized some of the spawning 14

habitats being utilized. 15

The fish were very mobile pre- and post-spawn. You 16

know, obviously when they were spawning they were pretty 17

sedentary. Some of the fish are moving seven to eight miles 18

in a week. 2 of the 14 fish we tagged were captured hook and 19

line but were released and are still alive today. 20

One of the other things that we found recently was 21

these fish have now moved to the confluence, the small 22

tributaries to the Potomac River seeking thermal refugia. So 23

we are finding a lot of interesting things out through this 24

particular study. 25

lcj 90

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Actually right after our last sport fish meeting, we 1

had a new state record. Tessa Cosens caught a 36 1/2 pound 2

muskie, which is a new state record. I don’t know if you guys 3

saw that. It has highlighted the fishery and actually we are 4

starting to see additional pressure because people are 5

starting to realize these fish are hanging out in specific 6

areas during thermal and stressful periods so it has put some 7

additional pressure on the fishery. 8

And then the last thing I would like to just mention 9

is we received recently a request to develop a category, a 10

state record, for green sunfish of all species. So there are 11

some states that have records for green sunfish. The 12

International Gamefish Association also recognizes green 13

sunfish and they have a record listed. 14

So I polled freshwater fisheries staff, and I think 15

all are in support of the development of a state record 16

category for green sunfish. So we will probably move forward 17

with that. And we are considering some other fish species as 18

well but we haven’t got that request. 19

So that is as fast as I can go, Dave. And the other 20

thing is the delayed harvest area that Jacob mentioned, that 21

was really a request that came from Trout Unlimited. Our 22

sample made the request, and we worked closely with Wildlife 23

and Heritage. 24

We visited the Hugg Thomas Wildlife Management Area, 25

lcj 91

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

and they have some regulations in place where you actually 1

need a permit to access that property. We have a very good 2

relationship with them, and they are willing to make it a 3

delayed harvest area. And we have some access points and so 4

we are going to move forward with scoping that. 5

That is all I have. Sorry I went so fast. You can 6

always reach me and ask questions. Anybody have any 7

questions? 8

(No response) 9

MR. PROCHASKA: You can read the monthly report, 14 10

pages, everyone. 11

Black Bass Advisory Subcommittee Applicant Review 12

by Commissioner Roger Trageser 13

MR. TRAGESER: This ought to be pretty quick too. 14

We have not had a subsequent meeting of the Black Bass 15

Advisory Subcommittee since our last one. And we don’t have 16

another one on tap, full committee meeting, until October. 17

The primary thing we were doing is trying to review 18

these applications to get our 13th member. I sent all that 19

information out to the Sport Fish Advisory Commission and I 20

have heard back from exactly 4 people. 21

Rachel was actually the very first person who 22

contacted me with some questions. I did hear from Val 23

recently and then had an opportunity to talk to Jim and Dave 24

last night about it. 25

lcj 92

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Unless there is some specific feedback from the 1

commissioners here, I am getting the impression from what 2

feedback I have had is that perhaps the subcommittee and our 3

members itself should make the recommendation and the decision 4

on who that 13th member should be but we had to get it out to 5

this commission but we are a subcommittee of this commission. 6

I just didn’t get much in the way of any feedback from 7

anybody. 8

So do you want just to have our subcommittee make 9

the decision on who that person should be? 10

MR. LANGLEY: Roger, I spoke with Dennis on this 11

also and he seemed to be kind of in favor of the subcommittee 12

actually putting forth the recommendation. 13

And I have no problem with the recommendation that 14

you guys have put forth. I don’t know whether this committee 15

wants to vote now in accepting the recommendation as we will 16

accept that person? 17

Questions and Answers 18

MR. GRACIE: I have a couple questions. Roger, is 19

the fully constituted subcommittee now going to go back and 20

review their positions de novo, from scratch? I mean, you 21

guys are going to make some regulations on how we are going 22

ahead with regulations, right? What is your subcommittee 23

going to do now? 24

MR. TRAGESER: We have a number of different things 25

lcj 93

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

that we are going to be looking at. For instance, when we get 1

completed here or at least by 5:00 p.m., we have got a habitat 2

workgroup that we are going to. This will be our first 3

meeting this evening that we are going to sit down and 4

discuss. 5

MR. GRACIE: Have you resolved your position versus 6

regulations for tournaments and other things that were up in 7

the air. 8

MR. TRAGESER: We basically have. 9

MR. GRACIE: That is done. 10

MR. TRAGESER: Yes. 11

MR. GRACIE: Okay. So you don’t have any more -- 12

MR. TRAGESER: No decisions on that. And that was 13

really the main thing on board right now. That has all been 14

resolved. Now we are moving forward with habitat, education, 15

any number of things that we have on that parking list. But 16

right now -- 17

MR. GRACIE: Thank you. I didn’t know where you 18

were going next. 19

MR. LANGLEY: Roger, if you would like to make a 20

motion and we could get a second. 21

MOTION 22

MR. TRAGESER: Well, I guess the motion would be 23

that the applicant that we had that was -- that had the most 24

recommendations from our subcommittee group, and that was 6 25

lcj 94

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

out of the 10 members who voted. We had 2 individuals I 1

believe who abstained. 2

6 members who offered some feedback on that, and 6 3

of those were for Dick Barrett*, who is actually also a member 4

of MARI, represents us on MARI. So I would like to make a 5

motion that the Black Bass Advisory Subcommittee put Dick 6

Barrett on as its 13th member based on the overwhelming number 7

of approval applications he had from subcommittee members. 8

MR. LANGLEY: Do we have second? 9

MR. GRACIE: Second. 10

MR. LANGLEY: Is there any discussion? 11

MR. GRACIE: You said represents us on MARI. Who is 12

the us that you are referring to, Roger, so everybody knows. 13

MR. TRAGESER: Maryland Bass Nation. 14

MR. GRACIE: Thank you. 15

MR. LANGLEY: All right. No further discussion, all 16

in favor? 17

(Show of hands) 18

MR. BLAZER: How many opposed? 19

MR. LANGLEY: Opposed? 20

MR. BLAZER: How many abstain? 21

(Show of hands) 22

MR. BLAZER: Nine to four, zero opposed. 23

MR. LANGLEY: The motion passes. 24

MR. TRAGESER: I don’t have any update on our Smoots 25

lcj 95

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Bay project. I know certain aspects of that project have been 1

completed. And we are hoping to get in this fall to place 2

larger structure in there. 3

Reef balls have been put in. We have some larger 4

structure that we have to put in so hopefully when we come 5

back, by our next commission meeting, we will have a little 6

bit more to report on that. 7

Coldwater Update 8

by Commissioner Jim Gracie 9

MR. GRACIE: The Wild Trout Subcommittee has had two 10

meetings since our last commission meeting. We have had a lot 11

of information exchanged. 12

We are dealing with I will say three issues but 13

maybe it is really two. I am going to take the simple one 14

first. There is a permit application in to MDE to remove 15

groundwater from the Hoyes Run watershed. Hoyes Run is a 16

tributary to the Youghiogheny on top of the mountain at wisp 17

and it flows from there down into the Youghiogheny River. 18

It is a Tier Two/Use Three stream. I don’t know if 19

everybody in the commission is familiar with water quality 20

standards regulations, but Tier Two is an outstanding 21

resource. It is a natural trout stream. That is what Use 22

Three means. And Tier Two means it is very high quality. 23

It is the only stream, as far as we know, that has 24

self-sustaining populations of three species of trout: brook, 25

lcj 96

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

brown and rainbow. This permit application has been bouncing 1

around for more than 10 years. It has been denied twice in 2

the past. It was made by the private developers originally. 3

I think they were called -- was it Mountaintop Sports and then 4

it was the Wisp Corporation. 5

They went bankrupt. Garrett County is now the 6

applicant for the permit. They want to put -- I think it is 7

137 homes on top of the mountain. As best we can tell, the 8

groundwater usage will deplete the flows in Hoyes Run. 9

They have done some pretty extensive pumping tests 10

to show that it won’t hurt any of the private wells around 11

there. We haven’t seen data that shows it won’t hurt the 12

fishery. 13

A reduction in the flow will mean an increase in 14

temperature in the summertime. That is what we are worried 15

about. Trout Unlimited has been involved in it. We have 16

gotten some other folks involved in it. And out Wild Trout 17

Subcommittee has had a couple presentations by Art Sinkle* and 18

we have had -- you may not know it but Ray Morgan is a brook 19

trout expert, internationally known, and he is on our 20

subcommittee. 21

Trout Unlimited is going to oppose that permit. 22

When I am finished making this presentation, I am going to as 23

Dave Blazer if he thinks it is appropriate for the commission 24

to request that the department support our opposition to this, 25

lcj 97

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

that the commission votes to take that position. 1

I am not sure what the bounds of our purview is. I 2

think we are supposed to recommend management issues to 3

fisheries not to MDE but we can certainly recommend that 4

fisheries carry our order for us, and I think that would be 5

the form I would take. 6

The other issue is kind of related to water-quality 7

standards in general but there is also a discharge permit 8

involved. There has been a sewage treatment plant in Piney 9

Run. This is a tributary that, together with McGill Run, 10

forms the headwaters of Western Run, which you may or may not 11

know, probably grows the biggest brown trout that grow in any 12

natural streams in Maryland. I have actually seen 29- 30-13

inchers out of there. 14

There has been a sewage treatment plant discharging 15

there for more than 30 years. We think that it is has really 16

caused a decline in the fishery. There are trout in the 17

stream, and it is Use 3. One if its problems is it has 18

temperatures up to 76, 77 degrees in the summertime downstream 19

of the plant. 20

And the standard, water-quality standard, for 21

temperature for Use Three streams is 68 degrees so it exceeds 22

that regularly. One of the problems that has been there all 23

along is that has been a temperature issue and other problems. 24

Carroll County has decided that they want to take 25

lcj 98

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

part of that flow and pump it over into the Patapsco Watershed 1

in the Deep Run on the plant that was Black and Decker’s 2

Hampstead Plant. BTR is what they are calling it now. I am 3

not sure what that stands for. 4

But initially they are going to take half of the 5

water out of Hampstead and put it into Deep Run. Deep Run has 6

a natural trout population. Young of the Year and multiple 7

year classes of brown trout. It is classified as Use One. In 8

other words, it is not classified, it is not designated as a 9

trout stream. 10

The Department of the Environment has had a request 11

from fisheries to reclassify it under the current standards 12

that they have been using for years, which says if you have 13

multiple year classes of either brown trout or brook trout, it 14

should be classified as Use Three. 15

They have declined to do that. They are now taking 16

the position that since it has temperatures that go above 68 17

degrees, they can’t really classify it as a trout stream. We 18

disagree strongly with that conclusion. We, Trout Unlimited, 19

and I think our Wild Trout Subcommittee, without exception. 20

So they are going to put this water in. There won’t 21

be a temperature limit on it. They haven’t classified it. 22

There are also five other segments that have been requested 23

for reclassification and that trout population is on the north 24

branch of the Patapsco watershed. They are not acting on 25

lcj 99

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

them. 1

So the two issues that are rolled into one here are 2

the water-quality standards. Under the Clean Water At, our 3

state is required to do a triannual review where they update 4

their standards. That means every three years. We are a year 5

behind on this one. That happens a lot. 6

And any rate, they are taking the position that they 7

can’t classify streams that exceed 68 degrees Fahrenheit as 8

trout streams. Just for your information, the largest 9

interconnected intact brook trout watershed in the eastern 10

United States south of Maine is the Savage River watershed. 11

The Savage River main stem goes up to about 78 12

degrees most summers in late July and early August. So that 13

is our best trout stream, and that exceeds 68 degrees 14

Fahrenheit. 15

You heard -- I think you heard Tony talk about 16

Muskies finding cold water refugia. Well, that is how trout 17

survive hot summers, and that is how they have done it since 18

the last ice age. They find the cold spaces. So the fact 19

that a stream goes above 68 degrees doesn’t mean it is not a 20

trout stream. 21

So Trout Unlimited has gone through the unusual step 22

of asking its national office for permission to sue on both of 23

these issues, and we are going to do that. The University of 24

Maryland Environmental Law Clinic has written a seven-page 25

lcj 100

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

response to -- and you have a copy of that -- to MDE’s 1

position on water-quality standards triannual review, 2

objecting strongly to everything they have said I think with a 3

good legal basis. 4

So those are the three issues. We don’t think that 5

MDE all of a sudden has decided that they have been 6

misinterpreting the Clean Water Act, and since 1972 they 7

didn’t know what they were doing and they found out last year. 8

To which I think is absurd on its face. 9

So we are objecting to them not using the policy 10

they have used and not reclassifying these streams. By the 11

way, if you got a trout population, and you don’t put it under 12

Use Three, there is no temperature protection. You stop 13

protecting an existing use, which we think is a violation of 14

the Clean Water Act. 15

So we are objecting to that. We are going to object 16

to the Hampstead Sewage Treatment Plant BTR discharge permit 17

if they grant it, and they haven’t made a final decision on 18

that so we don’t know yet. And we are going to object to the 19

Hoyes Run water appropriations permit. 20

MOTION 21

MR. GRACIE: So I would like to lump those three 22

issues and put a motion on the floor that the commission stand 23

with Wild Trout Subcommittee’s position and object to those 24

positions. 25

lcj 101

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. BLAZER: And just so it is clear that you relay 1

that to DNR -- 2

MR. GRACIE: Right, not to MDE, correct. I don’t 3

think it is appropriate for us to speak to MDE. 4

MR. NEELY: Do you want to make a motion? 5

MR. GRACIE: I just did. 6

MR. NEELY: Okay, second. 7

MR. LANGLEY: Any discussion or any public comment 8

on the motion? 9

MR. NEELY: I do think the motion should be restated 10

so that everybody understands it. 11

MR. LANGLEY: Jim, do you want to restate your 12

motion? 13

MR. GRACIE: The commission objects to the granting 14

of an appropriations permit in the Hoyes Run watershed, 15

objects to the discharge permit that takes water from 16

Hampstead and puts it into Deep Run, and objects to the 17

refusal to reclassify the natural trout streams that have been 18

requested. 19

I can fill in the details -- 20

MR. LANGLEY: I am sure there are application 21

numbers or whatever that -- 22

MR. GRACIE: I will be happy to draft a letter for 23

the commissioners’ signatures if the commission approves it. 24

MR. LANGLEY: Is that clear enough, John? 25

lcj 102

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. NEELY: Yes, sir. Thank you. 1

MR. LANGLEY: All right, all in favor of the motion? 2

(Show of hands) 3

MR. LANGLEY: Opposition? 4

(No response) 5

MS. DEAN: Abstain. 6

MR. LANGLEY: Abstentions besides Rachel? 7

(No response) 8

MR. BLAZER: 11 approve, 1 abstain, no opposition. 9

MR. LANGLEY: All right, thank you, Jim. Jim, did 10

that complete? 11

MR. GRACIE: Yes, it does. 12

MR. LANGLEY: All right, we are going to move on. 13

MR. BLAZER: This is Bruce Vogt. He is with NOAA. 14

He is one of the coordinators for the Chesapeake Bay Program’s 15

Fisheries Goal Implementation Team. 16

This is one of the groups that fisheries works with 17

where PRFC, Potomac River Fisheries Commission, Virginia 18

Marine Resources Commission, we work on Chesapeake Bay issues 19

associated to sustainable fisheries. 20

You have heard us talk about, like in blue crabs, 21

where we had the CBSAC report, a lot of our fisheries 22

management plans that are baywide work through like the Goal 23

Implementation Team. 24

Because we interact so much with them, and they help 25

lcj 103

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

us collaborate with Virginia and the Potomac, we thought it 1

would be a good idea to bring Bruce in to give you kind a 2

10-minute, hey, this is what the GIT, G-I-T, Goal 3

Implementation Team -- you will hear me call it GIT a lot -- 4

what they do, what the objectives are. 5

They work with the bay program and they have the bay 6

agreement, and some of the things that the bay agreement calls 7

for and the bay program is focused on. So with that as an 8

introduction, Bruce, I will let you -- 9

MR. VOGT: No, that’s great, Dave. I don’t need to 10

give my presentation. 11

(Laughter) 12

Chesapeake Bay Programs Sustainable Fisheries Goal Implementation Team Overview 13

by Bruce Vogt, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) 14

MR. VOGT: I will try to make this really quick but 15

that was a great introduction here. So we will jump in, and I 16

wanted to thank all of you for having me here today, and Dave, 17

thanks for the invite. 18

I do think it is a good idea to make tighter 19

connections with this team, and I will say we have been pretty 20

well -- Larry Jennings has been on the team, Jim Gracie has 21

participated on the team in the past. We have had some 22

interest from this group and we would love to have more. 23

Hopefully you will see something that you want to jump in and 24

help us out with. 25

lcj 104

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

(Slide) 1

The Sustainable Fisheries Goal Team is part of the 2

Chesapeake Bay Program, that large state/federal partnership 3

that is trying to protect and restore the bay and implement 4

actions all the way down to the local level to do so, 5

including the coordination across those big pieces of states 6

that dump into the Chesapeake Bay. 7

(Slide) 8

This is what it looks like from an organizational 9

standpoint. All the way up at the top is the Executive 10

Council. That is where the governor of Maryland sits and vice 11

versa for Virginia and the other states involved in the 12

watershed agreement. 13

The Principals Staff Committee would be the 14

secretary of natural resources for the states, and then the 15

management board is a little more at the active level. The 16

current rep for Maryland is actually Matt Fleming on that 17

team. 18

And then below the management board you see a line 19

of six little boxes that are all called Goal Implementation 20

Teams. This is where the -- really the engines of the 21

Chesapeake Bay Program. 22

All the work to implement the 2014 agreement that 23

Dave mentioned is really happening at these individual goal 24

teams, and while they look stovepiped here because there are 25

lcj 105

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

individual boxes, the idea is that we should be really working 1

across these goal teams. 2

So there is a fisheries goal team, there is a 3

habitat goal team, water quality goal team, health watersheds, 4

Chesapeake stewardship and then also a leadership goal team, 5

which is sort of trying to keep all of us together toward 6

meeting our outcomes. Right now we work probably most closely 7

with the habitat team. 8

(Slide) 9

Breaking that fisheries box down a little bit, the 10

Sustainable Fisheries Team looks like this. The big box 11

there, the Fisheries GIT, as we call it, sometimes fisheries 12

team, is comprised of an executive committee. 13

That includes Dave Blazer, Marty Gary from the 14

Potomac River Fisheries Commission, Bob Beal from ASMFC, Brian 15

King from DC, Rob O’Reilly form the Virginia Marine Resource 16

Commission and then actually my boss, the director of the NOAA 17

Chesapeake Bay Office, Sean Corson, as the chair of that 18

group. Rob O’Reilly is the vice chair. 19

That team gets together, the executive committee, on 20

a monthly basis to discuss issues and then we have a broader 21

membership groups that includes scientists and NGOs and other 22

interested citizens, in fact, like Larry, who get together 23

biannually. 24

And then the priorities of the team you see here 25

lcj 106

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

listed in the boxes below: oysters, blue crabs, invasive 1

catfish, forage, and fish habitat. Those are all things that 2

came out of, with the exception of catfish, came out of the 3

2014 agreement. 4

What we are trying to do through this goal team is 5

better connect the interests of fishery folks, both commercial 6

and recreational fishing, up to the Chesapeake Bay program 7

level to address things like water quality and habitat that 8

are sort of outside the direct fishery management purview but 9

are things that are certainly impacting the health and 10

productivity of fisheries in the bay. 11

And to do that across the jurisdictions, not just 12

Maryland but looking at Virginia, Pennsylvania, D.C., all the 13

jurisdictions involved. 14

(Slide) 15

I will skip over this slide quickly because we 16

mentioned that there was an agreement in 2014 that included 31 17

outcomes. 18

(Slide) 19

These are the 31 outcomes that were in that 2014 20

agreement. They are all owned by the individual goal 21

implementation teams, and the Fisheries Goal Implementation 22

Team owns five. 23

(Slide) 24

There are four boxes here. There are two blue crab 25

lcj 107

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

outcomes. One is looking at the abundance target that has 1

been set. There is a management outcome. And then there is 2

forage, oyster, restoration and fish habitat. 3

(Slide) 4

So again, the Fisheries GIT owns those. That mean 5

we have oversight for implementing those outcomes. And how we 6

do that is through the structure that I showed just a few 7

minutes ago. 8

(Slide) 9

By having an outcome in the agreement, it meant that 10

we had to produce what are called management strategies, and 11

then complementary to the management strategies were more 12

specific work plans. 13

These are available online. I am happy to give you 14

all a link to these if you want to take a look at them. They 15

were produced in coordination with a number of different 16

stakeholders and are being implemented by a number of 17

different partners associated with the bay program even down 18

to sort of local level partnerships. 19

(Slide) 20

We are implementing those plans, as I just said, 21

through a number of stakeholders. 22

I guess one thing I will also point out on this 23

slide is that in developing the work plans and the management 24

strategies, we also recognized that we had a number of 25

lcj 108

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

research gaps, and so we have been fortunate to get some 1

funding through the bay program to start to fill some of those 2

research gaps for blue crab and in particular for forage. 3

(Slide) 4

So getting into the individual outcomes a little 5

more, the blue crab, like I said, has two outcomes that are in 6

the 2014 agreement. The first is to maintain the 215 million 7

female abundance target. 8

You know, that -- we have been working with the 9

Chesapeake Bay Stock Assessment Committee, reviewing the 10

winter dredge survey results, having conversation about those 11

results among the jurisdictions, and then it is up to them to 12

think about how and work with all of you to decide how to sort 13

of make any sort of regulatory changes they might deem 14

appropriate given the numbers. 15

We have talked about developing a stock assessment 16

in relationship to this outcome. We are still trying to work 17

through that. We developed a set of terms of reference. We 18

got a pretty big price tag to address those so we are sort of 19

back at the drawing board to figure out the best way to get 20

some of those analyses done. 21

In lieu of a benchmark stock assessment, we have a 22

management outcome, which was to evaluate developing an 23

allocation-based management framework. The jurisdictions each 24

went to their industry groups and asked what they thought 25

lcj 109

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

about that and got feedback. 1

We have compiled all that feedback into one document 2

and the answer was we don’t want to move with an allocation-3

based framework so I think that one, we will see but I think 4

that one might be done. 5

I won’t get into the numbers of blue crabs here. I 6

am just trying to hit the highlights here and not get into a 7

lot of specifics on any one of these. 8

(Slide) 9

Oysters, you are probably familiar with this but 10

there is a goal to restore 10 tributaries by 2025. 6 11

tributaries have been selected in Maryland and Virginia, 3 12

each. 13

Harris Creek was done in 2015 and is currently being 14

monitored. The other tributaries in Maryland each have 15

established targets and restoration has commenced and is 16

working toward achieving those targets. 17

Virginia, we are not quite far along in setting the 18

targets although there is some previous restoration that is 19

being accounted toward whatever the targets end up being. 20

I will just say for this group, the idea of oyster 21

restoration here is that these are reefs, new reefs, that are 22

replacing open, non-oyster habitat before, so there is a 23

fishery enhancement value to this, and my office is funding 24

research to try to quantify what that fishery enhancement 25

lcj 110

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

value is. 1

So if you are interested in that sort of science, I 2

would be happy to talk to you more about it. 3

(Slide) 4

Forage: So for the forage, we recognize that forage 5

was -- understanding the forage base in the Chesapeake was a 6

really important component to advancing any sort of ecosystem 7

fishery management in the Chesapeake. 8

And so we were able to get some funding through the 9

bay program to hold a workshop. That workshop focused on 10

identifying -- the question was, well, what are the important 11

forage species in the Chesapeake Bay? 12

That workshop resulted in the list you see there and 13

the three colors on the right. The ones that are in blue were 14

scientifically derived based on surveys in the bay and gut 15

content analysis of fish. So we know that those are really 16

important to some key predators that were studied. 17

The other ones were either historically abundant so 18

they made it on the list or were important in places that just 19

weren’t sampled by the surveys used to identify the ones in 20

blue. So this is a big step. I mean, now we have a list of 21

what we know are the most important forage, and then we used 22

some additional bay program funding to identify what we knew 23

about the populations of these particular forage species, the 24

variabilities of those populations and how predators were 25

lcj 111

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

responding to that variability. 1

And we currently have a study underway to see how 2

environmental factors might be driving some of that 3

variability. 4

(Slide) 5

Then there is fish habitat. This one is a little 6

more vague in terms of the wording there on the outcome but 7

essentially we are supposed to try to bring together what we 8

know about fish habitat, the data and information and tools we 9

have, to sort of better direct practices on land or to help 10

improve or maintain existing fish habitat, whether that is 11

restoration or conservation efforts. 12

The team is really focused on, well, what are some 13

of the most important drivers of fish habitat health in the 14

bay? And the two pictures you see here, the one on the top 15

represents shoreline hardening and shoreline condition. 16

There are some studies that suggest that riprap and 17

bulkhead are both not the best or certainly not as good as 18

natural shoreline for things like forage fish and blue crab. 19

So that is an issue they want to try to take on. 20

And then the bottom one there with the curb and the 21

drainage is impervious surface, and Jim Uphoff, who works here 22

at DNR, has done a lot of work on that with Margaret 23

McGinty -- you all may have heard about it -- but trying to, 24

there are some thresholds there that once you get above 5 25

lcj 112

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

percent impervious surface, you start to see declines, and 1

once you get to 10 percent, you are likely not coming back to 2

any sort of healthy ecological state. 3

And the map on the right is some work that the 4

Atlantic Coast Fish Habitat Partnership did mapping out the 5

current condition of fish habitat for the inland side. So 6

this is really looking at fresh water. 7

If you are interested in this map, I can certainly 8

get you more information but it shows you areas that are 9

purple, blue and green. Purple and blue are in good 10

condition. Areas in green are sort of in the middle. And 11

then there is an orange and red that are pretty significantly 12

degraded so you could use this as a way to drive conservation 13

in the areas that are still good. 14

(Slide) 15

And then aside from bay agreement issues we have 16

invasive catfish. I chair the invasive catfish for the team 17

as well. We developed a report in 2017 that laid out 7 18

recommendations for how to mitigate our slow spread and 19

mitigate the ecological impacts invasive catfish were having, 20

both blue and flathead. 21

And we have also been tracking some science work 22

that my office has funded and also Virginia Department of Game 23

and Inland Fish to look at the distribution and population 24

numbers across the bay, some of the diet analyses. What are 25

lcj 113

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

they eating? What kind of impacts might they be having on 1

those species? 2

And then also tracking what is happening with the 3

fishery because one of the big recommendations was you 4

had -- we had this resource that could be further exploited so 5

why don’t we develop a fishery for it? And that has been 6

happening. 7

The market really increased thanks to efforts of 8

folks like Steve Vilnit, who used to work here, and Mike Hut* 9

down in Virginia. Now you see it at Whole Foods here in 10

Annapolis and on a number of tables in DC. 11

So the fishery has responded to that market in 12

places like the Potomac. It sounds like some fishermen are 13

even switching from blue crab to blue catfish because it is 14

more lucrative for them. 15

(Slide) 16

There are some emerging issues. We have taken on 17

cownose rays. I heard that mentioned earlier today. There is 18

a workshop that looked at the science around cownose rays and 19

produced a report, and to the extent we have sort of taken on 20

things like sturgeon, more just to make sure that our group 21

and our constituents who are already on the team are aware of 22

what is happening with the critical habitat destination. So 23

that is it. I was trying to go really fast. 24

There are more details behind every one of those. 25

lcj 114

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Again, I would just say bottom line we would love to sort of 1

have closer interaction with this group. Some of the things 2

that Jim was just talking about with respect to water-quality 3

impacts on fish is one of the things that the Fish Habitat 4

Team is really interested in. 5

We just briefed the management board of the bay 6

program recently and what we asked for there is we want to 7

have more involvement in the watershed implementation plans. 8

That is where they are deciding what sort of best management 9

practices, water-quality improvements that are going to be put 10

in place, and sometimes those can have -- might help fish but 11

not necessarily. 12

So we are saying, pick the ones that are most 13

important to also improving fish habitat, not just water 14

quality, and also help you pick the locations because that is 15

important too. 16

MR. LANGLEY: Any questions for Bruce? 17

MR. GRACIE: I got my card up so we don’t lose my 18

agenda item. I don’t have any questions for Bruce. We have 19

got to talk about Mallows Bay before we got. 20

MR. LANGLEY: Bruce, thank you very much. 21

MR. BLAZER: And if you are interested -- if it is 22

okay, Bruce -- if you are interested in getting on their 23

mailing list for their meetings and conference calls, contact 24

me or Paul and we will put you in touch with Bruce. 25

lcj 115

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

They meet twice a year. They have pretty good 1

meetings where they talk about all this stuff. If you are 2

interested in maybe a little more engagement, let us know. 3

Mallows Bay Discussion 4

by Commissioner Jim Gracie 5

MR. GRACIE: We supported the expansion of the 6

Mallows Bay Sanctuary. We had a difference of opinion with 7

the tidal fish commission, and they were -- what I was told, 8

and maybe I didn’t read the fine print enough -- what I was 9

told was they really didn’t trust government to stick to their 10

commitment there would be no restrictions on 11

commercial/recreational fishing in Mallows Bay Sanctuary, even 12

in the expanded one. 13

It turns out -- I have an e-mail from David 14

Sutherland. I actually was approached by Charlie Steck* and 15

asked if I could help him get the fishing community behind the 16

support for that. And in looking into it, I am hearing that 17

there is a four-year review of the restrictions on fishing 18

commercial and recreational. 19

Had I known that, I certainly wouldn’t have stood up 20

to everybody on the commission and said we already made our 21

decision, let’s stick to it. 22

So I don’t know quite what to do now but through my 23

own fault, I guess, not reading the fine print, as I said, I 24

was not aware that lack of restrictions on 25

lcj 116

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

recreational/commercial fishing were going to be reviewed four 1

years after this was put into effect. 2

MR. BLAZER: If I can just clarify that. It is not 3

necessarily that they are going to review the commercial and 4

recreational fishing management, if you will, in those areas. 5

The way the sanctuary law or the federal law states is every 6

five years, so they start four years, every five years they 7

have to revise a management plan. 8

So that is what they are doing now, building a 9

management plan on the Mallows Bay Sanctuary. Every five 10

years they review it so that they can go back and revisit are 11

they meeting their objectives? Are they reviewing, are they 12

doing what they are? 13

That is where I guess the possibility they could 14

look, wherever how they go through, as part of the process. 15

MR. GRACIE: Okay, that is good clarification. 16

However, we are not going to be reviewing whether it is going 17

to be a Mallows Bay Sanctuary with those boundaries in four 18

years. We are going to be reviewing a management plan. In 19

other words, we are not being asked to make a decision. We 20

don’t need the governor’s support to name that as a sanctuary 21

in four years. It will be a sanctuary, and then the 22

management plan -- 23

MR. BLAZER: No, the management plan is going to be 24

done when the sanctuary is done. 25

lcj 117

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: And reviewed every five years. 1

MR. BLAZER: And reviewed every five years 2

thereafter. 3

MR. GRACIE: Which could pose restrictions on 4

fishing. So I don’t think that anybody here was aware of that 5

possibility when we voted on it. And I just want to make 6

people aware of that, and I guess my position would be that I 7

might have some more questions, and I certainly would not be 8

so quick to endorse that expanded sanctuary as I was then. 9

And I don’t know how we should proceed on that. 10

What I would like is for somebody to look into that and get 11

some information here in our hands. When is our next meeting? 12

MR. BLAZER: October. 13

MR. GRACIE: Will a decision have been made by then? 14

MR. BLAZER: I don’t think so but let me check and 15

see where that it. We will send you an update on where we 16

are. 17

MOTION 18

MR. GRACIE: I guess what I am suggesting is that -- 19

and maybe I will make a motion to reconsider. That is a 20

Robert’s Rules of Order procedure. 21

So we could reconsider. We don’t have to make the 22

decision today. So I would move that we reconsider our 23

position on that. 24

MR. LANGLEY: All right, we have a motion on the 25

lcj 118

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

table based on what you just heard from Jim. Do we have a 1

second on that motion? 2

MR. TRAGESER: I second it. 3

MR. LANGLEY: Roger. All right, any discussion? 4

MR. DeHOFF: Is the change of the management plan 5

being reviewed only on the expanded boundaries? It is on any 6

of them. 7

MR. GRACIE: On the whole thing. 8

MR. DeHOFF: So it doesn’t really make our choice. 9

All we did was make our decision on which of the three options 10

we chose. It doesn’t matter which of the options are chosen, 11

there is always going to be that review. 12

MR. GRACIE: We made two decisions. We made, first, 13

one to support the Mallows Bay Sanctuary. And we had the same 14

understanding that there would be no restrictions on 15

commercial and recreational fishing. 16

And then we reaffirmed that decision on the expanded 17

one, so there were actually two separate decisions of this 18

commission. In both cases we were of the understanding that 19

there would be no restrictions on fishing. 20

MS. DEAN: I want to back it up a little bit too 21

because I think maybe the chain got a little bit broken. 22

At our first sport fish meeting and our first tidal 23

fish meeting, we were shown maps that showed that original 24

area, which was very small. And we all felt comfortable with, 25

lcj 119

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

and I don’t think that we realized that there was an 1

opportunity for that to expand. 2

So when it was brought back to us and that expanded, 3

there was a lot of kickback from the commercial industry 4

because we were very aware that there is always a review 5

process and there is always a possibility for management plans 6

to change. So -- and Dave Sikorski was serving as the 7

liaison, and I think he was very surprised to find that in our 8

original, the presentation that was given to us, it did not 9

show this expanded area. 10

It just showed that in-shore area, and we all felt 11

comfortable with that. So I think that it is definitely two 12

parts here. One, that you have gone beyond that area now, and 13

that is where the concern is. And I think that Jim is right, 14

that it opens the door for that -- something. We have seen it 15

before. 16

MR. LANGLEY: Any other discussion on the motion? 17

(No response) 18

MR. LANGLEY: We have a motion, we have a second. 19

We are going to call the question. All in favor -- 20

MR. GRACIE: Does everybody understand what a motion 21

to reconsider means? It means that our position is no longer 22

valid. We will have to have further discussion on it before 23

we do anything. 24

It doesn’t mean we are changing out mind to object 25

lcj 120

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

to it yet. We haven’t had that discussion. 1

MS. DEAN: That letter was sent? 2

MR. GRACIE: So it would be appropriate to say we 3

are reconsidering that. We should probably notify people of 4

that. 5

MS. DEAN: So can we add to your motion we would 6

include a correspondence that would say we are reconsidering? 7

MR. GRACIE: That is okay with me. Does the 8

seconder -- who seconded? 9

MR. TRAGESER: Okay, yes. 10

MR. GRACIE: Yes, then we can change that. 11

MR. BLAZER: Say that again, Rachel. I didn’t 12

quite -- 13

MS. DEAN: I know that it means we are going to have 14

further discussion but I would like other parties to be aware 15

that we are in the process of reconsidering. 16

MR. GRACIE: In other words, if we don’t tell 17

anybody we are reconsidering, they think we are still in full 18

support. 19

MR. LANGLEY: Okay, does everybody understand the 20

motion now? 21

(No response) 22

MR. LANGLEY: I am going to call the question. All 23

in favor? 24

(Show of hands) 25

lcj 121

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. LANGLEY: All right, any opposed? 1

(No response) 2

MR. LANGLEY: Any abstentions? 3

(No response) 4

MR. BLAZER: Unanimous. 5

MR. LANGLEY: Thank you, Jim. And thank David. 6

MR. TRAGESER: I have got to take off. 7

Monitoring and Assessments 8

ASMFC/MAFMC Updates and Announcements 9

by Dave Blazer, Director, MD DNR Fishing and Boating Services 10

MR. BLAZER: We will jump right into, really quick, 11

ASMFC and Mid-Atlantic Council updates. 12

Mike scheduled a timely vacation and couldn’t make 13

it this week. So there are a couple things just to keep you 14

aware of. 15

At ASMFC August 1-3 in Alexandria, Virginia, will be 16

the meeting. The South Atlantic Board will be meeting to talk 17

about Cobia. They will review a draft of a fisheries 18

management plan to be taken out for public comment. 19

The recreational option will likely be one fish per 20

vessel per day at 36 inches with seasons set by the date. 21

That is kind of where they are right now. We are exploring 22

other options for Chesapeake Bay just to see if we could have 23

kind of a smaller season with some smaller size limit with 24

lcj 122

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

some other seasonal closure for that but again we are waiting 1

for some of assessment, and that might be helpful for us to 2

evaluate as we go forward. 3

Menhaden will probably be a five or six-hour 4

meeting. They are doing three things: They are looking at 5

Amendment 3 to set the schedule for public hearings and to 6

have the official document for the Amendment 3 management plan 7

for Menhaden. 8

There is also a stock assessment report that is 9

going to be coming out, and there is also the total allowable 10

catch for Menhaden that will be presented and hopefully voted 11

on. If you recall last year at this time, it was six votes 12

that couldn’t decide so they punted it to November. So we are 13

at that time a year again for Menhaden. 14

Black sea bass: They are talking about opening up 15

Wave One for recreational fishing on the coast. There will be 16

some -- a lot of discussion, a lot of interest in that issue. 17

The Tautog Board will meet for final approval of 18

their amendment. Most of our folks on the coast are pretty 19

good with tautog or at least where we are as far as the 20

season’s size limits and creel limits. 21

Again, I don’t know all the details. If you have 22

got questions, we can talk to Mike next week when he gets 23

back. 24

And then -- I am saving the best for last. Mid-25

lcj 123

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Atlantic Council meets August 8-10 in Philadelphia. They will 1

be talking about recreational harvest limits for summer 2

flounder, black sea bass, scup and bluefish. We don’t 3

anticipate any big surprises on those but we will wait and 4

find out on August 8-10 in Philadelphia. 5

Now the one that will generate a lot of discussion, 6

at least at ASMFC -- it already has because there have been a 7

couple conference calls -- is the flounder decision. The 8

finding that New Jersey is in compliance with its fisheries 9

management plan even though ASMFC found them out of 10

compliance. 11

Just to give you a little background on the process, 12

ASMFC with summer flounder, we had to make reductions. Summer 13

flounder was being overfished. Some significant issues were 14

occurring within that fishery. All the states had to make 15

some adjustments in their management processes. 16

There was a Technical Committee report, and every 17

state had to change like size limits, creel limits or whatever 18

to come in that recreational harvest limit for flounder. New 19

Jersey offered what they said was a conservation equivalent 20

plan. The Technical Committee reviewed it and said they 21

disagreed, that it was not as conservation equivalent as the 22

other 10 states had put forward. 23

Then the Management Board agreed with the Technical 24

Committee, and then the Policy Board said New Jersey is out of 25

lcj 124

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

compliance because they didn’t meet the Technical Committee 1

requirements that were set up in the management plan. 2

That triggers a series of letters going back and 3

forth based on federal laws that NOAA, the National Marine 4

Fisheries Service kind of has the hammer. They can impose a 5

moratorium on a state if they don’t comply with the management 6

measures based on the management plan. 7

Since it is a Technical Committee, the Management 8

Board and the Policy Board of ASMFC said they felt they were 9

in noncompliance. Sent a letter to NOAA. NOAA came back and 10

said we are okay with New Jersey’s plan. 11

They took some steps. The Technical Committee said 12

they didn’t take quite enough. But NOAA in their consultation 13

and analysis said they felt that New Jersey had complied with 14

the conservation equivalent, and they accepted their 15

compliance so there was no moratorium initiated by the feds 16

for New Jersey. 17

So that just happened last week. I believe 18

everybody got a copy of the news release from ASMFC telling a 19

little bit about the decision. I was on a conference call 20

this morning with all the other fish directors up and down the 21

coast. Not sure what this means. This is the first time in 22

17, 18, 19 times that states have been found out of compliance 23

that NOAA has not supported the ASMFC determination. 24

So this is the first time that this has happened. 25

lcj 125

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

ASMFC talked about it. Okay, they are out of compliance. The 1

one thing that I do want to clear up is New Jersey didn’t just 2

turn and say, no, we are not doing this. We are not doing 3

anything. They at least put forward a plan to try to get to 4

conservation equivalent. It just wasn’t -- the way the 5

Technical Committee evaluated, it wasn’t enough to get to 6

where they needed to be. 7

NOAA agreed with them. They made the effort, they 8

put something forward, it was just a discrepancy on where it 9

is. So they didn’t turn around and say, no, hell no. They 10

tried something and this is the result. 11

So I am sure at ASMFC there is a lot of discussion. 12

Do we just live with the decision? How do we handle this 13

moving forward? There is talk about lawsuits because some of 14

the other states tried other conservation equivalent processes 15

that didn’t get accepted, that they had to change and come 16

into compliance, especially on this issue. 17

And then there is basically -- the one that we 18

talked a little bit about was, you know, if NOAA is going to 19

not agree with ASMFC, are there a new set of standards? Are 20

there new guidelines or technical issues that ASMFC needs to 21

be aware of so if these decisions are going to be the wave of 22

the future and how we are going to handle things, we need to 23

know so we can kind of anticipate as we go forward with that. 24

So still up in the air. I think the timing of this, 25

lcj 126

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

New Jersey will be able to finish out their flounder season 1

for this year but after that, how this will be viewed and be 2

addressed and the repercussions of it over the next several 3

months to years is yet to be seen. 4

I will take any questions and to try to answer. I 5

have kind of exhausted my knowledge there but that is kind of 6

where we are. 7

Questions and Answers 8

MR. GRACIE: I have now just read the press release. 9

It is an ASMFC press release, and they sound pretty unhappy 10

about what happened. 11

MR. BLAZER: Right. 12

MR. GRACIE: I don’t know if there are any 13

repercussions. It just means that sometimes you can get them 14

overruled and this is the first time it happened. You have 15

the same process to go through if they try that again. Did 16

the secretary give reasons why they said it was -- was there 17

any counter? 18

MR. BLAZER: Not really, no. And I think, just 19

knowing what New Jersey put forth in their conservation 20

equivalent package, and I think this is the question why a lot 21

of the Technical Committee and managers are concerned is they 22

were taking reductions because of education, of 23

catch-and-release education. 24

They felt that if they did an education effort and 25

lcj 127

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

worked with people to say, hey, let’s release these alive, 1

their hooking mortality numbers would be lower. And they were 2

able to take credit for some of that. 3

So that was just one of the examples that they put 4

forward. There are a couple others that -- you really didn’t 5

have technically good verifiable data that would say, yes, you 6

can take this much. So it wasn’t the best science that the 7

Technical Committee had been used to or was comfortable with. 8

And that is why they found them out of compliance. 9

MR. GRACIE: But New Jersey has had battles with 10

this before. The black sea bass was the big one that went on 11

for a long time. 12

MR. BLAZER: They finally got one. 13

MR. O’BRIEN: Well, this decision sure has shaken 14

things up around the coast. As vice president of the National 15

Charter Boat Association, it is what everybody is talking 16

about now. 17

And from that venue, you know, there is a 18

frustration with the process and certainly with ASMFC when it 19

comes to Maryland and our aspirations. 20

So I welcome it. I think it certainly brings things 21

to a dialogue that can question have things been too much the 22

same. Is the process frozen? And is it frozen -- 23

Again, in Alaska, there are overtures from NOAA to 24

relax certain things. What could we do? There is a dialogue 25

lcj 128

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

on right now. At the last ASMFC meeting attended by 1

Mr. Crabtree representing NOAA, the tact he took in this 2

recent trend toward to listening to things that are 3

challenging the system. 4

And he said we want to help you any way we can. 5

That is what he said at the meeting. I know you remember it. 6

With particular emphasis on outside the three miles because 7

ASMFC is sitting there. 8

It is just a situation where there are so many 9

people at NOAA, ASMFC, back and forth. They are so close 10

together in Washington, and that is something that is 11

sometimes very frustrating to people who would like to change 12

the process. 13

And again we have got a block of states that really 14

support the process. I think the proposals we have submitted 15

the last three years, trying to get to an 18-inch, 19-inch 16

fish, have been very well done. And I hope that somewhere in 17

all this, we get a break. We need a break. 18

MR. GRACIE: Sounds like we need to go to the 19

Secretary of Commerce. 20

MR. BLAZER: Ed, I agree with you. I think this is 21

the time for a healthy dialogue about what is there. And that 22

is kind of where -- you have got the two extremes of doing 23

nothing and lawsuits. You don’t want the lawsuits to kind of 24

make the decisions for you. Doing nothing -- I am not sure, 25

lcj 129

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

at least from my seat, that I am comfortable with we are just 1

going to -- 2

I think we have got to ask questions of NOAA, ask 3

questions of the process and the Technical Committees. If we 4

are going to look at conservation equivalent, let’s make sure 5

or have comfort in it. You know, there are confidence 6

intervals. It is not an exact science. 7

I think you have probably heard me say that. It is 8

not rocket science. Rockets are pretty easy. You apply force 9

and it goes in a direction. You change the force, it changes 10

direction. 11

With us, you know, you do something, you think it is 12

going to react some way, but is it? And this one is going to 13

be difficult because you could sit back and say, well, let’s 14

wait until the end of the season and see how New Jersey does. 15

Well, you really can’t measure the effects of the 16

education impact. Did it make a difference? We don’t know. 17

But I agree with you, Ed, that I think it is healthy to go 18

back and start to have those discussions about, hey, what do 19

we know, what do we not know? If this process is going to 20

work, make it predictable. Make it so that it is verifiable 21

and understandable. 22

If the standards need to change a little bit, then 23

maybe that is what we need to do. If we need to look at other 24

things, then maybe that is what we need to do. 25

lcj 130

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

I am a process person, Ed. I am more worried about 1

the process and making sure that it is fair and equitable and 2

predictable, and that is what I would like to see. 3

MR. LANGLEY: And the only other comment I was going 4

to make on that, Dave, and I agree with Captain Ed. There is 5

unfortunately, and I have seen it firsthand even at the ASMFC 6

level, there are politics involved and sometimes it is 7

difficult to get beyond the politics, especially when it comes 8

to votes. 9

So if sometimes it doesn’t hurt to give a second 10

look on things that if a conservation equivalency plan -- like 11

I said, I think Maryland has had some great plans, especially 12

with the sex ratio here in the bay that -- 13

And we are finding out the water temperatures here 14

in the Chesapeake Bay, where the ASMFC uses a 9 percent 15

mortality standard catch and release. Well, when our water 16

temperatures in the bay exceed 80 degrees, as they are now, I 17

think that mortality rises in the warmer water temperatures. 18

So I think Maryland has had some very strong cases 19

but I feel the politics has kind of stopped us from proceeding 20

and making a good case to that effect. 21

So I don’t think the process will allow this to 22

happen all the time but it is an opportunity, and maybe it 23

will awaken some people to look at this a little differently. 24

MR. O’BRIEN: Rachel? 25

lcj 131

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MS. DEAN: You want me to respond to it, Ed? I 1

believe in the process. I think I do not want to see the 2

process fall apart in terms of the states and I think there 3

are a lot of user groups up and down the coast that think that 4

this means a free-for-all. 5

So I think we would probably be getting in line if 6

we chose to take on that same path. 7

MR. BLAZER: And that is why I kind of made that 8

comment about sitting from my seat because I know I am going 9

to get pressure, or Mike or Lynn or others who are on the 10

ASMFC board, are going to get the pressure to kind of follow 11

the New Jersey route. 12

But I want to be clear in that New Jersey did put a 13

plan together. It may not have gone completely where the 14

Technical Committee wanted it but they didn’t turn their nose 15

up and just turn around and say, no, we are not doing that. 16

MS. DEAN: And I think that is what Phil and Ed are 17

saying, that we have put a proposal together in the past. But 18

I think we need to think about how this is going to play out 19

in terms of all of the states and what their next move is 20

going to be and do we want to subscribe to this process still 21

or do we want it to be something where somebody, a federal 22

level, is making our decisions for us? 23

MR. BLAZER: So stay tuned. We will let you know 24

how this plays out over the future. And if you are down in 25

lcj 132

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

Alexandria, Virginia -- I forget what day the Flounder Board 1

meets. I think it is on Wednesday or Thursday. We will let 2

you know when that happens. 3

License Sales Overview 4

MR. BLAZER: I have one last thing, if we can move 5

on. In your packets, I just wanted to show you the license 6

sales numbers for 2017 and 2016. 7

The 2016 looks a little different because we had 8

kind of a change in a couple of license categories, and it 9

didn’t go into effect until October 1. So from July 1 to 10

October 1 you had the different license efforts. 11

What I am showing you is license sales have dropped 12

a lot. Our revenue this year was about $2 million what we had 13

projected. It rebounded. Now we are only down like $1.2 14

million so I just wanted to share that with you. 15

And that is why, like the work with RBFF that Linda 16

and Kevin talked about, Recreational Boating and Fishing 17

Foundation, we have gotten some grants from them. 18

We went to the 365-day license but how do we retain 19

license holders so they come back year after year and by 20

licenses? 21

Questions and Answers 22

MR. GRACIE: Do we have a way of analyzing what the 23

365-license cycle did to it because one of my concerns early 24

on is that you are going to drop license sales because people 25

lcj 133

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

don’t remember their renewal dates. I mean, this is an 8 1/2 1

percent decline. That is the biggest one I have seen in a long 2

time. 3

MR. BLAZER: Yes, but I can’t attribute all of that 4

to the 365-day license, what we saw this spring. We know 5

there has been some impact but we are hoping that it is not as 6

much. 7

One of the things we are doing, we got a grant from 8

RBFF to try to look at sending e-mails to people through 9

Compass and saying, hey, you bought your license a year ago on 10

July 18. Your license has expired. Do you want to buy 11

another one today? We can sell it to you online now. 12

MR. GRACIE: I don’t have much to back this up but I 13

can kind of tell you that we have done something for the past 14

two years. We gave up the Fishing Challenge Program. I mean, 15

we had an effort to promote fishing and to draw people in that 16

was going on for seven years, since we had that license fee 17

increase in 2007. The money started coming in, in ’08. 18

And all of this seems to be coming together the 19

wrong way because all of a sudden we have got a bigger decline 20

than we have seen. And we may have been doing a good job. 21

I, for one, think that the state should be taking 22

more responsibility to promote this industry. It is a 23

billion-dollar contribution to the economy. 24

We do more than that for horse racing, and that is a 25

lcj 134

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

$200 million contribution. So I am just wondering where the 1

case is, can it be made because I think people need to be 2

talking about that again. 3

MR. DAMMEYER: I am excited to see freshwater going 4

up a little bit. But I have a question. Has there been any 5

sort of study relating fishing license sales to broader 6

economic benchmarks like employment levels or regional 7

employment levels and -- 8

MR. BLAZER: Nothing local and nothing in the state. 9

I think there might be some national stuff. 10

MR. GRACIE: There have been studies that have shown 11

that during a recession, fishing license sales go up. That 12

could be a factor too as the economy recovered. 13

MR. DAMMEYER: --- after the stock market crashed, I 14

went to my Linked In page and said let’s go fishing. And I 15

knew a lot of people who were unemployed, and I was busy. A 16

lot of people are back to work now. 17

MR. LYNCH: Do you have an idea what the dollars 18

were between the two years? 19

MR. BLAZER: I have that information. I don’t have 20

it with me. 21

MR. GRACIE: What was the $2 million figure you 22

quoted? That was less than your projection? 23

MR. BLAZER: Yes, that was less than what we had 24

thought, which was based on kind of level funding. 25

lcj 135

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. GRACIE: So that would be a $2 million 1

shortfall. 2

MR. LANGLEY: The only comment I was going to make, 3

Dave, I don’t know whether, and you probably can’t do it, is 4

whether you can look at geographically, is there any way of 5

knowing where the greatest sales have fallen off, and that I 6

am going to kind of point out that two years ago, in the 7

Chesapeake Bay, we went from a 20-inch fish to an 18-inch 8

fish. 9

And although it has been very productive in the 10

upper bay but three-quarters of the Chesapeake Bay has -- 11

MR. GRACIE: You just confused me. We went from a 12

20-inch fish to an 18-inch fish two years ago. You mean the 13

other way around, don’t you? 14

MR. LANGLEY: We went from an 18-inch fish to a 15

20-inch fish. Jim, I am sorry. And with anglers going out, 16

not being successful, I am wondering if we are starting to 17

feel some of the repercussions. 18

MR. : Or is the 35-inch minimum during 19

trophy season? 20

MR. LANGLEY: Or the 35-inch minimum in trophy 21

season? And I think that some of the regulations that we have 22

undergone in the last couple years pertaining to striped bass, 23

possibly -- I am not saying it is all the effect but it could 24

be have an effect in success. 25

lcj 136

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

MR. BLAZER: So I just wanted to share that with you 1

just to give you a heads up. 2

MR. O’BRIEN: I certainly am not against going 3

against all the rules for all species. I am specifically and 4

episodically talking about striped bass and our situation in 5

the bay. 6

And three years we have been pretty objective on it 7

relative to the ratio, the sex ratio, and now the mortality. 8

That is getting louder and louder. 9

Maryland did a pretty good job, commercial and 10

recreational, and certainly the charter boat industry down in 11

Florida. We got the vote to get our issue on a 19-inch fish 12

into the Policy Committee of ASMFC. And that was a victory. 13

We had quite a few states supporting us on that to 14

get it to the Policy Committee. Then we had the situation 15

where we went in with the 19-inch fish standing alone, which 16

quickly got to be a situation where everybody should 17

participate in this along the coast. 18

But to get to that point to where we got the vote, 19

and we probably thought it meant more than it did because of 20

that decision to make it something that would apply to 21

everybody. 22

But we got that vote based upon the Maryland 23

situation. So that is two victories. We went into this last 24

meeting, and I feel we had the votes even without DC there, 25

lcj 137

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

and I was talking to people the night before. 1

The next morning we go in there, and they have put 2

in the 2016 MRIP data, which nullified the way we had built up 3

a case with support -- I have had calls at ASMFC from other 4

states who support us. And maybe they have their own 5

disagreements on one species or the other. 6

I am not looking for chaotic Armageddon when it 7

comes to process on all species. We built up a success story. 8

We were in route to that, and then the 2016 data -- so I just 9

wanted to make that comment. 10

MR. LANGLEY: I think we have public comment before 11

we adjourn. 12

Public Comment 13

MR. SHUTE: I don’t know if this is the right venue. 14

I am a sportsman in the area, also a part-time guide, but one 15

of the things that might be impacting that is that access is 16

getting worse. 17

I was hoping to bring up the point of Sandy Point 18

State Park before 6:00 a.m. The beachgoers and the picnickers 19

and all that are lining up an hour plus prior to the park 20

opening. 21

Boaters are supposed to have 24-hour access. I was 22

going to ask if DNR could ask the county police or the state 23

police to enforce the no-parking zones so boaters can get to 24

the park and not have to wait an hour and a half for the 25

lcj 138

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

beachgoers to start being allowed in. 1

MR. GRACIE: Well, we just set up a subcommittee to 2

work with parks and I guess we will talk to police too. And I 3

think the park people are already talking to the police. 4

There has been a big issue just for access, and there are 5

terrible problems in the neighborhood because people are 6

sitting there all day waiting for openings at the park. 7

So it is a big people/management/traffic problem, 8

and the park service hasn’t gotten the support it needs to do 9

what it has to do. And it might be that they need to create a 10

support lane, which might mean construction and capital 11

investment, so boaters can get in out and everybody else -- 12

But I don’t know. All I am saying is we have got a 13

subcommittee. And if you want to be part of that, you are 14

welcome to join us. We are going to sit down and find out 15

what we need to know about this and then we are going to meet 16

with the head of parks and see what she has to say about this. 17

MR. SHUTE: I think a short-term solution would be 18

just for the police to enforce the no parking and say, hey, 19

you can’t stay here, you got to go somewhere else and come 20

back at 6:00 a.m. 21

MR. GRACIE: We are not going to jump on any 22

short-term solutions until we get better informed. I don’t 23

think I know enough to -- 24

MR. SHUTE: Well, right now the park doesn’t open 25

lcj 139

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

until 6:00 a.m. for beachgoers and it is 24-hour access to 1

boaters, and the park is blocked starting at 5:00 a.m. 2

MR. GRACIE: I understand all that but you need to 3

understand that this commission has no say over what the 4

police do. 5

MS. DEAN: I also want you to know that we did have 6

a very lengthy and healthy discussion about this for about 40 7

minutes earlier. Don’t think we are trying to shove you off. 8

We did do that. 9

MR. GRACIE: If you give us your name and all, you 10

will be included in the information and can come to our first 11

meeting, which I am going to schedule. 12

MR. BLAZER: Can you state your name? 13

MR. SHUTE: Sure. Greg Shute. 14

MR. LANGLEY: And no further business, this meeting 15

is adjourned. 16

(Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 5:30 p.m.) 17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

lcj 140

Audio Associates

301/577-5882

1