malcolm turnbull discusses piracy crackdown

8/10/2019 Malcolm Turnbull discusses piracy crackdown

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Petroc Wilton:Its Petroc here form Communications Day, hi Malcolm. I guess

when weve seen both sides of this debate be so vehemently opposed on some

key points do you have condence that there will be a consensus of sorts

reached with this code before !pril"

Malcolm Turnbull:#es, look, I am condent Petroc. $m, I think theres, uh, inthe course of the last si% months or so, um, the discussions that Ive had and

that &eorge has had and that weve had together with the various 'inaudible (

stakeholders") are fairly condent, reasonably condent, that they will come to a

landing. I think theyre fairly close. *o, yeah, but you know, as weve made clear,

and youve seen the letter that weve sent to the, uh, various parties, that if they

cant reach agreement then we will, uh, the government will impose a code

under the Copyright !ct or the telecoms act. +eve got several means of doing

that.

Petroc Wilton:#eah, yeah, -, thank you.

Josh Taylor:osh /aylor from 0D1et. ust on the, on the costs aspect of it, that is

one sticking point that I know the rights holders and I*Ps disagree on. +hen you

talk about sharing the costs what do you actually mean" Is that going to be

mostly borne by the rights holders" Is it going to be mostly borne by the I*Ps"

2ows that actually going to work out"

Malcolm Turnbull:+ell osh thats something theyve got to resolve

themselves. 3ut, look, I think that their, the reality is that the people or the

parties whose valuable property is being appropriated without payment are of

course the rights owners. *o they have got, theyre the ones with the most togain nancially from a reduction in piracy. *o I think its, uh, I think its

reasonable to e%pect that the bulk of the costs will be borne by the rights

owners. !nd thats certainly I think the e%pectation in the industry.

Josh Taylor:!nd I guess on the other part of the ledger you mention in the

letter that content owners have made their content more available recently. Is

there anything in the notices that the customers will get if the content isnt

actually available in !ustralia4 that theyll have a way to sort of get out of being

penalised for downloading the infringing content"

Malcolm Turnbull:+ell theyre not being penalised by the notice. I mean thenotices are really educative. /he idea is that the way the scheme would operate

and probably if you look globally the closest 'inaudible ( comparison") is 1ew

0ealand I think it would be fair to say, is what we have in mind. ne where the

notices go out ( I mean most, the general e%perience seems to be that most

people when they get a notice actually stop downloading content, um, that they

havent paid for. $h, so there is a very important educational role here. $h, and

then if after a number of notices ( and you know thats something the industry

should agree on, but one would e%pect after three or four notices the rights

owners have the ability to get the details of the account holder thats involved

and then they can take an action for damages, a civil action for damages in theusual way.


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Ben Grubb:$h 3en &rubb here from the *ydney Morning 2erald. $h, before the

last...

Malcolm Turnbull:If I can 5ust add to that answer 3en, the critical point here is

that what we are not suggesting is that I*Ps should be re6uired to cut o7

peoples access or, you know, slow the speed of their connection or anything likethat.

Ben Grubb:Is it - if I go"

Malcolm Turnbull:#es, re away, re away.

Ben Grubb:3efore the last election there was an internet lter proposed and

you successfully managed to change that policy. /oday were seeing a new

internet lter introduced by ways of legislation....'cut o7)

Malcolm Turnbull:/hats nonsense 3en. /heres no internet lter here at all.

+hat on earth are you talking about"

Ben Grubb:3ut arent you re6uiring the I*Ps to block websites"

Malcolm Turnbull:1o. +hat were, look, what we are simply doing is proposing

to amend the ... were going to amend the Copyright !ct to make it more

straightforward for rights owners to do what they can do now, which is to seek an

order that access be prevented 'to) a site that is ... infringing content. 1ow the

reason for the legislative provision ... is to make it available, is to enable you to

get a remedy against an I*P 8 in other words to get an order against an I*P

whose costs would have to be covered and so forth 8 to block access to anoverseas illegal down'load)..., uh, pirate site. Ill 5ust use the word pirate because

its easy4 we understand what were talking about. *o if you have, you know,

bengrubbdownloads.com.au in !ustralia and you are happily streaming, you

know, unlicensed copies of movies, then this amendment would have no

relevance to you because the rights owners can go after you directly.

Ben Grubb:9ight, so you are saying it isnt an internet lter because they can

do this already"

Malcolm Turnbull:Can I 5ust say this to you" Dont, I mean, I know the

temptation to sort of engage in 5ournalism by click bait is very strong but this isnot, repeat, not an internet lter. /his is basically, were talking about a situation

where you have, you know, bengrubb.com.ru, based in 9ussia or, um, wherever,

which is happily taking money and, you know, one way or another, either

through adverting or directly from customers, to stream pirated content.

bviously the rights owners cant get a remedy against the website which is in

another 5urisdiction and so what theyre able to do is go to a court, and sub5ect to

all the usual safeguards, is get an order that the I*P should block access to that

site as I*Ps do now for other sites, there are other sites 'for which we) block

access to relating to, you know, child abuse sites and sites that are promoting

terrorism. #ou know this is not without precedent. 3ut this is not4 this is


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absolutely not a lter. !nd I mean thatll get you a lot of clicks. 3ut that is

complete 3*. Its not a lter. /his is...'inaudible)

Matthew Knott:Malcolm, Matt -nott from :airfa%, 5ust about, so if it comes to

!pril and it hasnt been agreed have you go"

Malcolm Turnbull:2ang on, hang on. ust say that again slowly.

Matthew Knott: *o if we get to !pril and the code hasnt been agreed upon

have you worked out the system that would be in place then. 2ave you worked

out the code that you would implement by force if they cant work it out

themselves"

Malcolm Turnbull:3y force of law you mean" #eah, uh, we, um, I think weve

got a pretty good understanding of that but no doubt it will evolve. 1o doubt

there are some practical matters of detail that will emerge over the ne%t few

months. I think broadly speaking we are basically, I think there is a generalagreement that a system of notices is a good one, recognising most people once

that get a notice will stop doing the wrong thing.

Matthew Knott:!nd have you got feedback from the rights holders" !re they

happy" Do they think this goes far enough to make a di7erence for their

businesses"

Malcolm Turnbull:$h, well, I think its very important to recognise that this is a

very dynamic area and there is ... this will ... were playing a percentage game

here, right" #oure never going to eliminate all piracy. +hat we believe this will

do is materially reduce it and I think thats important. I think most peoplerecognise they shouldnt, you know, steal other peoples intellectual property and

they recognise that actors and artists and writers and directors and so forth all

need to live and theyre entitled to paid 5ust like everyone else. *o I think they

accept that but I think its important ... theyve developed a sort of a practise of

downloading content without payment. I think the notices will have a salutary

educative e7ect and we will monitor it. 1ow one thing I should say to you 'is)

that I have arranged for my department of communications to liaise with their

counterpart in 1ew 0ealand and the $- to 5ointly on an ongoing basis e%amine

the e7ectiveness of measures taken both in our 5urisdictions and elsewhere to

prevent internet piracy. I mean I recognise and you wouldve seen from thatforum we had earlier in the year that there is some controversy as to what

actually works. !nd so thats why its going to be important...

Daniel Hurst:Minister on that, sorry, Daniel 2urst here...

Malcolm Turnbull:!nd if I can 5ust make one other point. 3ear in mind the

notices are only relevant to le8sharing. -" :ile8sharing as best we can

understand, as a form of unlawful downloading, or unlawful sharing, is actually

diminishing as a percentage. !nd increasingly pirated content, being obtained

through pirate sites, in other words its being directly downloaded or streamed

from those sites, and thats where of course the provision, the amendment to the


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Copyright !ct that were talking about is, you know, has the potential to mitigate

that too.

Daniel Hurst:Minister, Daniel 2urst here from the &uardian. Can I 5ust ask, you

did say that youre not going to eliminate all copyright infringement obviously.

+hat e7ects do you e%pect from this" Do you e%pect that there will be a greateruptake in people being able to use ;P1s and going around the system" +hat do

you e%pect the e7ect to be on consumer behaviour"

Malcolm Turnbull:?? a month for a year or something in

order to get 'it). #ou can buy stu7 on a piecemeal basis and also of course youre

starting to see new entrants like 1et@i% 5ust as youve seen in the music business

with *potify. I mean theres no doubt that *potify has had a material impact on

reducing piracy. /hat seems to be pretty clear. /hats certainly what *potify

asserts and I dont have any reason to doubt them. !nd I would refer you to a

very good discussion of *potify which is in the 1ew #orker about A, I cant

remember who wrote it, but its 6uite a good piece about the origins of *potify

and you know its impact. It basically got started as you know in *weden and the

piracy was 5ust enormous. /he music industry was on its knees. !nd they got, so

the rights owners said Bsure, whatever, this has got to be better than what were

getting at the moment, better than nothing, !nd it did have a very big impact.

*o I think as people become used to paying.... Most people accept that it is

reasonable to pay. bviously their incentive to steal stu7 has obviously

increased. /hat incentive has increased by ! /he cost of buying content

legitimately and 3 !nd I think this is 5ust as big an issue, convenience or lack of

convenience of buying stu7 legitimately. *o I think the key focus for the content

owners I think is to make their content both conveniently able to be bought in a

timely fashion and of course to have a price point that people regard as fair.

Claire Reilly:Minister, Claire 9eilly here from C1/. I 5ust have a 6uestion about

the validity of IP addresses that are found by rights holders. /hats a key point

that the current ii1et8Dallas 3uyers Club case is hinging on. +ill I*Ps 'check) the

accuracy of particular rights holders coming with correct IP addresses that they

believe are infringing" Does this not rely on that accuracy that the I*P is then to

block"

Malcolm Turnbull:I think, I understand that argument and of course with

network address translation techni6ues, you know 8 Im 5ust getting up to get air

conditioning. -. *orry, Im back again. +ith network address translation, or


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1!/ting techni6ues, those problems are, theyre not trivial. I acknowledge that.

2aving said that, the way this scheme would work is you would get, lets say an

IP address that... say an IP address is identied as having shared a le thats an

infringing le. $m, the I*P resolves that to you and sends you a notice. 1ow

thats 5ust an educative notice. #ou would be perfectly free to go back and say

Bwell that wasnt me, youve screwed up, check your records.


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infringer), and that would be a static IP address I imagine, but in many cases I

guess it will be hard to get back behind the public IP address thats been

allocated to the wireless router that youre connected to that is in turn connected

to the internet.

Josh Taylor:2ave you also done a cost8benet analysis on this or a regulatoryimpact or anything like that"

Malcolm Turnbull: $h yeah theres certainly, absolutely yes. /heres a

regulatory impact statement with this, yes.

Petroc Wilson:Minister its Petroc again. I wanted to clarify a point of

legislating. I hope it isnt too obvious a 6uestion. #our original proposal spoke

about e%tending authorisation liability, actually changing legislation in particular

and broadening the denition of reasonable steps. 1ow no change is mentioned

in the letter to rights holders and I*Ps.

Malcolm TurnbullF +ere not making any change to the denition, to the scope

of authorisation. If you look at say section >?> and you re@ect on the ii1et

decision, if you have a code in place and under the e%isting laws there was an

e%isting code in place ( which there wasnt at the time of the ii1et case ( that

decision wouldve been di7erent, assuming ii1et had not complied with the code.

*o &eorge and I dont think there is a need to change the denition of

authorisation liability. 3ut, you know, we are, we recognise, youve got to

recognise, and I certainly recognise that this is a very dynamic area. $se of

technologies is changing rapidly, so this is the best set of measures we can

devise for this case and we will obviously monitor its success very carefully. !ndas I said earlier, were going to talk to governments in comparable 5urisdictions

and make sure that we all have a good understanding. I mean, look. +hat is our

ob5ective" ur ob5ective is to obviously to stop people breaching copyright. I

mean nobody is seriously going to say it is a good thing or a worthy thing for

people to be able to essentially be able to steal music and video content online

or anywhere else, any more than it is a good thing to walk into a shop and put a

D;D in your pocket without paying for it. *o we understand that. 3ut what weve

got to make sure is that the measures we employ are the most eEcient, impose

the least cost on the industry and consumers and are obviously carefully

monitored to make sure that they are e7ective. /here is a, and of coursetechnologies change. !s I said earlier, theres a lot of evidence to suggest that

le8sharing as a form of, you know, internet piracy if thats the right term has

diminished. 1ow if you talk to the people at 1et@i% they will tell you ( and

*potify ( they will say that 'this is) because companies like 1et@i% and *potify

are making so much content available for streaming at a7ordable prices that

people no longer feel that its not worth, theyd rather pay for it and get a better

6uality product and not run the risks of breaching the law.

Stehen Scott:Malcolm, *tephen *cott here, what condence will consumers

have that this will...

Malcolm Turnbull:*orry can you 5ust speak up sorry.


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Stehen Scott:*orry, can you hear me"

Malcolm Turnbull:#ep.

Stehen Scott:*tephen *cott. +hat condence should consumers have that

this will lead to lower prices or material being available sooner in !ustralia than it

has been.

Malcolm Turnbull:+ell I think, I think, look, at a legal, speaking from a strictly

legal point of view, rights owners can determine when they release their material

and what they charge for it. ust like if, you know, if you sell motorcars you can

determine what price you charge for them. /hats a matter for you. 2aving said

that, its very clear that the, that one of the most e7ective counter measures

against piracy is to make content available conveniently and a7ordably. !nd I

think youre starting to see all these changes. +eve talked about *potify, weve

talked about 1et@i%, youve got :o%tel Presto, youve got *tan, um, not to speak

of obviously the 'e%isting) players like i/unes. *o I think there is a lot of activitythere. I mean if you talk to people in the industry who sort of re@ect on this, a lot

of people say that the big mistake that was made was that when 1apster was

nally put out of business they didnt either in e7ect legitimise 1apster and

make it a legal, you know,'service)... or 6uickly replace it with one because,

there was a , 1apster got people into the habit of streaming and le sharing

became de rigueur, but there was a bit gap between all of that becoming very

widespread and prevalent and providing lots of legitimate avenues for

purchasing content online. 1ow you guys would be better historians of

technology than me but I think theres some course in that. 3ut anyway, this is a

set of reasonable measures, theyre very moderate, theyre not, theyre certainlynot, you know, I think they will have a material e7ect but time will tell.

Matthew Knott:Malcolm, Matt -nott again, is there any chance that for the

I*Ps that the cost of compliance for this will lead to higher internet bills at all or

is that not possible"

Malcolm Turnbull:I mean it depends on two things a what the cost is and b

how much of it the I*Ps have to share, have to pay for. *o obviously there is a,

weve all got a vested interest in the costs being low, as low as possible. !nd

from the I*Ps point of view they take the view, and I think that thats a

reasonable position to take, that, you know, the largest share of the cost should

be borne by the rights owners. 3ecause after all its their property, its their

valuable property thats being stolen.

Daniel Hurst:3ut minister, on that point, on that point, Daniel 2urst from the

&uardian, you did say that the ma5ority should be borne by the content owners

or the rights holders, but why should the I*Ps have to pay anything whatsoever

for this process"

Malcolm Turnbull:+ell I think the, you know the, it is, the I*Ps are in a, you

know, theyre earning revenue from, uh, providing these services too, providing


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that connectivity as well, um and I think thats a, that is a, that cant be ignored

either.

Gre! Jennet:Malcolm, &reg ennet from the !3C, 5ust on that, if you had to

enforce a code beyond !pril of ne%t year how would you address the

proportioning of costs between those two arms of the industry.

Malcolm Turnbull:+ell thats a very interesting 6uestion but its a hypothetical

one and I am focussed on persuading the industry to get on with the 5ob to come

to a resolution. I think that theyre pretty close. !nd I think they would be very

well advised to come up with an industry code themselves rather than having

something imposed on them by government.

malcolm turnbull discusses piracy crackdown

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