Li Lu’s 2010 Lecture at ColumbiaMany of you enjoyed my previous transcript of a talk Li Lu gave at Columbia

University. Thanks to Joe Koster, you can now view a more recent lecture he gave to

Bruce Greenwald’s value investing class in April of 2010.

Based on Berkshire’s investment in BYD, the fact that Lu manages Charlie Munger’s

money, and that even Buffett would give money to Lu if he ever retired (according to

Greenwald) makes me think Li Lu is an investor worth watching.

With that in mind, I believe it is insightful to study whatever you can find about him and

his approach. I think this lecture from 2010 is great. The recording has some audio

issues making it difficult to hear and I thought that some of you might enjoy reading

notes from the talk. This is not a true transcript, but an approximation of what was said. I

think it comes pretty close, having listened to the lecture a few times. I think you will find

it helpful and Lu’s talk rewarding.

Bruce Greenwald: Warren Buffett says that when he retires, there are three people he

would like to manage his money. First is Seth Klarman of the Baupost Group, who you

will hear from later in the course. Next is Greg Alexander of the Sequoia Fund. Third is

Li Lu. He happens to manage all of Charlie Munger’s money. I have a small investment

with him and in four years it is up 400%.

[Applause]

Li Lu: Columbia is where my whole life in America started. I could barely speak the

language. In Columbia it was where I had a new life. It was really in the Value Investing

class where I got my career start. I was really worried about my student loan debt at the

time and a friend told me about this class and said I need to see a lecture from Warren

Buffett.

What I heard that night changed my life. He said three things:

1. A stock is not a piece of paper, it is a piece of ownership in a company.

2. You need a margin of safety so if you are wrong you don’t lose much.

3. In the market, most people are in it for the short term. It allows you a framework for

dealing with the day to day volatility.

Those were three powerful concepts. I had never viewed the stock market like that. I

viewed it negatively as a place made up of manipulators who were lining their own

pockets. I embarked on an intensive two year study learning everything about Buffett.

Two years after that I bought my first stock. After I graduated I worked at an investment

bank for a year and realized it was a mistake. I tried to start a fund but I didn’t have a

track record. The first year I managed money I lost 19%.

Being a value investor means you look at the downside before looking at the upside.

Before becoming an investor you need to look at how you can fail at this game. There

are all sorts of ways you can fail. You need to examine who you are and see if you

could be good at it. If you could ever find something you can do well that you really like

— that will be your best investment. You will do better than competitors. If you can do it

with intrinsic passion, that really over time will add enormous value to you.

Back to the game of investing. This concept of margin of safety is an essential concept

to be a good investor. The future is unpredictable, you will always be dealt surprises,

some positive most negative. You need to build in a level of safety so that whatever

happens, you will not get crushed. If you can really successfully know what you are

getting into, you can pretty much navigate. Most people are troubled by what they don’t

know. The world is divided by those who know and those who don’t know. If you really

know — you will not pull triggers like Wall St. traders. If you are truly intellectually

honest, you would not do anything.

This class teaches you to know what you are getting into, especially accepting what

things you don’t know. The game of investment is really continuous learning. Everything

affects an investment, it constantly changes. You are not investing in the past but the

accumulative cash flow of the future. You have to want to find a certain set up where

you can know something that most people don’t know. There are plenty of things I don’t

know but they don’t factor into the purchase because I am using a huge margin of

safety. Buying a dollar at 50 cents. So if things turn against you, you will be okay. That

is not easy. This business is brutally competitive. It is so impossible to know everything

and know exactly what is going to happen to a business from now till the end that you

really have to accept that what you don’t know.

Finding an edge really only comes from a right frame of mind and years of continuous

study. But when you find those insights along the road of study, you need to have the

guts and courage to back up the truck and ignore the opinions of everyone else. To be a

better investor, you have to stand on your own. You just can’t copy other people’s

insights. Sooner or later, the position turns against you. If you don’t have any insights

into the business, when it goes from $100 to $50 you aren’t going to know if it will back

to $100 or $200.

So this is really difficult, but on the other hand, the rewards are huge. Warren says that

if you only come up with 10 good investments in your 40 year career, you will be

extraordinarily rich. That’s really what it is. This shows how different value investing is

than any other subject.

So how do you really understand and gain that great insight? Pick one business. Any

business. And truly understand it. I tell my interns to work through this exercise –

imagine a distant relative passes away and you find out that you have inherited 100% of

a business they owned. What are you going to do about it? That is the mentality to take

when looking at any business. I strongly encourage you to start and understand 1

business, inside out. That is better than any training possible. It does not have to be a

great business, it could be any business. You need to be able to get a feel for how you

would do as a 100% owner. If you can do that, you will have a tremendous leg up

against the competition. Most people don’t take that first concept correctly and it is quite

sad. People view it as a piece of paper and just trade because it is easy to trade. But if it

was a business you inherited, you would not be trading. You would really seek out

knowledge on how it should be run, how it works. If you start with that, you will

eventually know how much that business is worth.

When I started in the business in 1997, it was in the middle of the Asian Financial Crisis.

A few years later there was the Internet bubble. A couple years ago was the Great

Crash of 2007 – 2008. They are billed as once in a century disasters but happen every

few years. Every time it goes against you, your net worth or value of your investments

might go down 50%. This is really where that insight and temperament comes in. In a

sense, you have to have a certain confidence in your own judgement and not be

swayed by other people’s views. It is not easy. But that is life. It is just a given. It

happens to everyone. Berkshire had at least three times when the stock went down

50%. It happened to Carnegie too. It happened to Rockefeller. It happens to everyone.

If you really made a mistake, it would not stop at 50% but go to 0.

This happens to even mighty companies. Look at the top 50 companies in America

every 10 years. By the time 20-40 years go by, 2/3rds of them will be gone. By the time

it goes to 100 years, there might be only a couple left. It’s just the way it is. Look at what

happened to the once mighty General Motors. So thats why I’m saying is, investing is a

continuous learning process because your investments are constantly changing

So for those of you that have curiosity and the temperament, this game couldn’t be

better. Capitalism rewards people who are talented at capital allocator. So if you have

the aptitude and temperament, it is the great game. If you don’t have that then I urge

you not to go and become a nuisance. That is really what Wall Street did, they don’t

really create anything they just move money around. Letting the financial industry get

too big is bad for the economy, it is just as bad as getting addicted to casinos, drugs,

and alcohol. None of them are really useful, they just transfer wealth. That is what I

think happened on Wall Street over the last several decades. So avoid being harmful.

With that I am open to questions.

Q: Mohnish Pabrai recently spoke about his reluctance about investing in China

due to the multiple accounting books / the possibility of fraud. How do you deal

with this given your own investments in China?

Li Lu: Well, you know I think he is right. Every thing has an exception though. Just

because a next door neighbor is a fraud doesn’t mean you are. That is one question to

ask — whether you can trust the accounting and people running the business. That can

have a huge impact on the business. I suggest you spend a lot of time looking at these

factors, especially if you are investing for the long haul.

Q: Why did you decide to go into venture capital? How is that different than your

other investing?

Li Lu: I always had this bent that I want to build a real business. I started a venture and

it was really a lot of fun. Overall, it is a tougher game than simply investing in securities

because you have to evolve to the day to day changes in operations and it is just not as

easy to build great businesses. Every generation has a handful of great businesses that

come from no where and come to dominate their fields. It is much more rewarding as an

investor to pick those. Also, you are more likely to find managers much more capable

than yourself. Overall, I learned a lot. I learned a lot in how businesses succeed and

how businesses fail. It really was a lot of fun. I probably carried it too far — I eventually

ran one of the businesses and it was of course a mistake.

Q: I read that when you look at an industry, you look at the most miserable

failures of that industry to see whether you will invest in it. Can you talk a bit

about that?

Li Lu: It goes back to understanding the business. Once you have that understanding

you can extend it to understanding an industry. A certain industry might have

characteristics that make it different than others. In certain industries you might have

better prospects than others. Find the best of the players in the industry and the worst

players. And see how they perform over time. And if the worst players perform

reasonably well relative to the great players — that tells you something about the

characteristics about the industry. That is not always the case but it is often the case.

Certain industries are better than others.

So if you can understand a business inside out you can then eventually extend that to

understanding an industry. If you can get that insight, it is enormously beneficial. If you

can then concentrate that on a business with superior economics in an industry with

superior economics with good management and you get them at the right price — the

chances are that you can stay for a very long time.

Q: Did you have any specific example?

Li Lu: I have studied many over the years. As I have said, don’t copy other people’s

insights because it doesn’t work. Automobiles are amazing. If you look at the early days

it started with several players and concentrated with just a few players that became

enormously profitable. Then they became miserable. You then see how the life cycle

turns with new automakers in China and India. Everything has a reason. If you want a

good idea — look at General Motors from the early days, look every 5 years and see

how the performance metrics change. The Graham and Dodd Center should collect all

the data and perform some kind of commentary on it.

Bruce Greenwald: Do you want me to give you the answer to that? In the 1960s, their

return on capital was 46%. In the 1970s their return on capital was 28%. In the 1980s it

was 9% in the 1990s it was 6%. You want to guess how negative it is now?

Li Lu: So that is really fascinating. If you have that data, the amount of insight that

would yield would be astonishing. So instead of just accepting the conventional wisdom

that the auto business is bad — that is just not true. Or if you say well those guys just

unbelievable money machines — that is not true either. So if you can really examine

those statistics and understand it that will give you an advantage for analyzing new

situations like in China and India. That is really what turns me on. Understanding this

gives you a tremendous leg up.

Q: I wanted to ask you about BYD. I heard that you thought it was important for

them to introduce a model to the US and wanted to know why you thought that.

Li Lu: That might be a better question to ask the BYD chairman than myself. Well, If

you are just talking about electric vehicles, you know the key — the heart and soul of

the electric vehicle age the heart is the battery. There is the battery, electric motor, and

the electric control control panel. The electric motor has been there for 100 years,

control system is software that can be improved over time.

The battery is really where you get the biggest appreciation and is what determines the

value of the electric vehicle. 100 years before the Model-T was introduced, the

competition between electric vehicles and gasoline was not nearly as optimistic. Up and

till then, 1/3rd of cars being produced were electric. It wasn’t until Rockefeller got oil

extracted easily enough that it worked. Henry Ford was able to make the internal

combustion work even though it wasted 85% of the energy. He was able to build the

engine and produce automobiles that were cheap enough for people to buy and it took

off. That is where you find the real winners.

Now, years later, we know that the way that oil is burned contributes to global warming.

If it continues, the planet might still be here but all the human beings might not. Human

beings have only been on the planet for a tiny bit of the earth’s history. So there are all

sorts of good reasons for electric cars. Battery development has advanced so much that

it is now comparable to the price and performance of traditional cars. So now with the

help of companies like BYD, the balance is about to tilt towards where performance and

price are getting to the level that makes them a desirable alternative. It will be desirable

everywhere. Eventually, if you have a car that does all that, it will be sold everywhere.

Q: What about BYD versus others in the industry?

Li Lu: The market will determine that.

Q: Yeah – but why BYD versus others?

Li Lu: Well because we also studied all those other guys. We will see when the winner

emerges whether we are right or wrong.

Q: Right – but what did you look at to reach that view?

Li Lu: There are a lot of people who have worked over 100 years making great cars.

The technology for building a traditional car has been refined enough to where it can be

learned in a short period. The place we are still seeing a curve of continuous rapid

improvement is with the batteries for cars. Whoever is leading the charge will have a

major advantage. There is really only one company that is a leader in battery

manufacturing and automobile manufacturing. There is only one company. To put this

together you need a Ford to put that together. So far those two elements need to be put

together. It is not an easy process.

Q: So you went to BYD in 2005 and then you brought Berkshire as well. I saw that

you sold a small amount of your BYD position at the end of last year. Was it just

rebalancing? Can I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Li Lu: Actually I started my BYD position in 2002. I sold a small amount of shares

because an investor of mine had an emergency redemption.

Q: We read your profile online. I had a question – do you have any problems

when trying to invest in China?

Li Lu: Yeah I do have some difficulty. I did not really see a factory plant at BYD until the

end of 2008. I really did not have a better understanding till then. That really causes you

to question what it is before you make an investment. With investing, you have to work

with imperfect information because you are buying a piece of the future. I did not really

get a chance to get more information because the problem in Asia till much later but it

did not stop me from making my investment decision. So there is a point, where if you

have enough margin of safety– that is why I kept coming back to the elementary

concept of margin of safety– you can allow much more uncertainty and unknowns. So

the answer of the question is does that stop you from making the investment? No.

Q: So I did some research on lithium ion batteries, and I saw that BYD has a

manufacturing advantage with consumer batteries. But I saw that automobile

batteries are much more complex. I did not think that the idea of a good

consumer battery manufacturer + an automobile maker made much sense. So

when Buffett looked at the stock maybe it was a better deal but today it is this

dream of vehicles that is really priced in. It does not feel like a good value

investor stock. So why would you own it today?

Li Lu: Well that is interesting. One of the most fascinating things about being an

investor is that surprises are part of the game. When you get into situations like BYD,

you see lots of good surprises. Chuanfu and his team have this fabulous culture,

everything people thought they knew turned out to be a few years late. He got into

battery manufacturing in that particular way because he really had no other option. He

had no money, he only had $300,000 in venture capital funding before IPO and that was

it. He raised money in an IPO and Buffett gave him $200M, now they have 160,000

employees. $6-7B in revenues, $500M in net profit. It is amazing. So he has this ability

to adapt in a competitive environment. He has demonstrated that ability again again and

again. The way he does automation is far cheaper than anyone else and more reliable.

He continues to surprise me with his ingenuity, to figure out ways to do something better

than everyone else. What he is currently doing is very different than what everyone else

has done. At the end of the day, you might look at what he has done.

So how do you look at it as an investor with imperfect information? Well I suggest you

look at what he has accomplished. 8 years ago I had no idea they would go into the

automobile or laptop or cellphone battery business. So that demonstrates how he is.

This investment is not easy to understand because it is changing so fast, at such a large

scale. An almost unheard of speed. Their manufacturing capabilities will double soon.

This year they will hire 10,000 college graduates, 8 or 9 thousand engineers. The scale

is almost unparalleled. So this is why the study of history, of all the great corporations

will give you a good insight in seeing what will happen with BYD. I suggested that we

start with GM and analyze its performance every 5 years for 100 years to understand at

least one aspect of BYD’s business.

Q: One investor came in and said talking to management is a waste of time. They

will say what you want them to say. Obviously it sounds like you don’t agree with

that. What do you think? Will you pay a premium for a business with a moat?

Li Lu: There is no general rule. The key in investing is to know what you know and

know what you don’t know. You can know about management teams without meeting

with them. Every situation is slightly different. So I come back to the point that if you

know enough on other things that there is enough margin of safety. Even if you meet

with management, you may not learn something. Obviously, actions speak louder. You

want to see what they have done. Everything being equal, the more you know about

management, the more honest and upfront they are, the more motive they have, the

better the situation is and the deeper the discount. You have to analyze it all. The key to

analyzing it is you have to ask: do I really know what I think I know, do I really know

what I don’t know? If you can’t answer that question, chances are you are gambling.

Q: What kind of preparation do you do before meeting a management team?

Li Lu: I don’t really have a set method. Because I usually am just curious about the

business and don’t know a lot. So you are prepared and not prepared. If you are really

curious, you want to learn more and study it more. When working at a hedge fund or

mutual fund, you are expected to learn a business in one week. You can’t truly

understand everything about a business in one week. It took me 10 years and I am still

learning new things about BYD. It is a continuous learning process. You could spend a

lifetime studying a business or industry, but in a few seconds I can tell you whether or

not I like it. You want to build knowledge by continually learning. There is not set

preparation.

Q: Recently, Jim Chanos gave us his thesis on the China Syndrome with there

possibly being a bubble.

Li Lu: Well, it is too big of a question for me. I don’t know

Q: 20 years ago you said you challenged conventional wisdom in China. Out of

curiosity, in terms of value investing what do you challenge in the conventional wisdom?

Li Lu: Well, the fundamental philosophy of value investing is very sound. Its basically

the three things:

1. A stock is not a piece of paper, it is a piece of ownership in a company.

2. You need a margin of safety so if you are wrong you don’t lose much.

3. In the market, most people are in it for the short term. It allows you a framework for

dealing with the day to day volatility.

That is really an intelligent approach. So therefor any intelligent investing is really value

investing. There is a certain level of intellectual honesty. If you have all that insight

going into analyzing businesses I don’t have any arguments with it.

Q: What is your point of view on long / short positions in value investing?

Li Lu: The most profitable kind of investing is long term investing. You want to allow the

time that it might take because you don’t know when the market will catch on. If you can

find a business with good management with good industry fundamentals blowing it

forward, you have a good opportunity and you can save money on taxes.

A short cannot be a fundamentally long term position. In the long game, the upside is

unlimited. Your downside is 100%. In shorting it is opposite. Shorting is also essentially

borrowing, so you need money and time on your side. If time is not on your side, you

can be right but lose all your money. The best kind of short usually has some kind of

fraud. In those situations, management is determined to keep the fraud. Look at Bernie

Madoff, 20 years time. You cannot afford to borrow money for 20 years. So shorting is a

short term game. When those positions go against you, there is huge leverage that can

utterly crush you.

In theory, long / short is okay, but if you are trading all the time you need to be in tune

with all the things moving the market. None of them might be fundamental to the actual

business. So you spend all your time chasing noise than studying a long term situation.

If you cannot concentrate on things in the long term, and spend all your time thinking

about the short term, you will not be able to develop the kinds of insights necessary to

identify great investments.

From time to time, you will lose some money on paper. But it is just part of the game.

This is why I closed long / short. You know I went through three bubbles. The Asian

Financial Crisis, the Internet Bubble, and this most recent financial crisis. The biggest

mistake I made is not being able to pick up undervalued companies where I had a

unique insight but was tied up with this whole long / short thing. The money I left on the

table is still adding up. I am still paying for those mistakes.

Q: In a bull market environment, how do you re-evaluate your thesis?

Li Lu: I don’t ever want to profit from a bubble. Soros does that, that is just not my

game. I don’t profess any ability to understand how long a crowd will buy into a bubble. I

invest in things that appear to be compelling values that continues. So that is why this

game is a continuous learning process – because everything affecting the investment is

constantly changing. Including the price. Including the prospects and elements of

business success. You really do want to never stop learning. This game looks to be

easy but it is not easy.

Q: Given your focus on international investments, how do you think about

diversifying your investments regionally?

Li Lu: First of all, I did not really specialize in international investments. I started off

doing most of my investments in the US and Canada. In recent years, I just find better

bargains outside of it. One of the great things about being an investor is you can look

anywhere and find great pockets of opportunities. You cannot do that as a venture

capitalist as I experienced myself. So you can look anywhere for opportunities. I do not

take a regional approach to diversification. I have views towards certain countries and

currencies, but it is not the driving force for a potential investment. If you have your

fundamental things right, if you happen to have macro economic factors behind you,

you can run a great wave.

Q: How is your investment style different today than when you started the fund?

Li Lu: A lot of things have changed. One bonus about this profession is you get better

over time. Most professions, as you get older, you get out of the game. Take the

example of competitive sports. If you are a figure skater or gymnast, after your teenage

years you are out of the game. With investing, if you are doing it the right way, you get

better over time. Your knowledge accumulates exponentially. When I look back at

everything I have done, I would have done it all slightly differently, but that is because I

am better at it today. So if you approach it in a fundamentally sound way, as you

mature, you become better and better. That process and progression is like

compounding money. In fact, you can compound knowledge faster than money. If you

truly love this game, I would suggest that you don’t take short cuts. It might take longer

but it is more rewarding.

Q: What is the difference between being a top political criminal in China versus a

hedge fund manager today (referring to the ire directed at Wall Street)?

Li Lu: I don’t consider myself a criminal. I don’t think China considers me a criminal.

What I think we are doing today with our investment in BYD in China is really helping

China march towards a modern era of prosperity. BYD is providing a solution to both

China and the US, to migrate from the past to a way that gets us out of the

unsustainable carbon age that we live in. Global warming is a vital concern to every

human being, so China is providing a great contribution to everybody with BYD.

America has had a great history of invention and here is a great company in China that

is about to make a major contribution to human civilization with cheap electric vehicles

and solar power.

Ultimately we will have to get our energy from the sun. Most of the energy, even fossil

fuels (plants that die and then go into the ground), all originally come from the sun. So if

you can figure out a way to take energy from the sun and power vehicles, while using

batteries to store it, inexpensively — will really make renewable energy power

everything. The combination of those things holds the key to the future of industrial

civilization that we are about to embark on. We didn’t set out with BYD with this in mind,

it just happened that way. With great companies, it only looks logical in retrospect. Think

about how Bill Gates started Microsoft. I don’t think he knew up front that he would take

the entire market — at that time it did not exist. It is the same way with our investment in

BYD. Ultimately, I think finding an inexpensive way to store energy that we harness

from the sun will be a huge contribution for both China and the US, but more broadly

our entire civilization.

Li Lu: Berkshire Hathaway CIO Candidate?

This past weekend was the Berkshire Hathaway (NYSE:BRK.A / BRK.B) annual

shareholder meeting. At one point during the Q&A, a questioner asked Warren Buffett

about the status of Berkshire’s CIO candidates. Charlie Munger remarked that one

candidate who he is particular close with was up 200% in 2009 with 0 leverage. Some

people think that the person Munger is referring to is Li Lu, a fund manager who turned

Munger and Buffett onto BYD.

Lu personally owns at least 2% of BYD, which rose 400% in 2009. I don’t know anything

about his investments beyond that one position, but I know he is a huge believer in

taking concentrated, high conviction positions. If that is the case here, BYD’s

spectacular results must have contributed a lot to his returns for 2009 which may make

a 200% for the year possible.

Here is a brief bio on Lu:

Li Lu was born in China in 1966. He attended Nanjing University in China and later

came to the U.S., and earned three degrees (BA, JD, MBA) simultaneously from

Columbia University. After graduation, he worked in an investment bank until 1997,

when he founded Himalaya Capital Management, which today manages both LL

Investment Partners and Himalaya Capital Ventures, funds focused on publicly traded

securities and venture capital. Li Lu was named a global leader for tomorrow by the

World Economic Forum in 2001, and a Henry Crown fellow by the Aspen Institute in

1998. He is a member of Council on Foreign Relations and Young Presidents’

Organization.

Fortune: Barnstorm Green

There isn’t a whole lot of information about Lu’s investing style out there. But I thought I

would share some notes from a lecture he gave to Columbia Business School back in

2006. All of this is paraphrased, so don’t take anything as a direct quote and there may

even be some inaccuracies. Still, I believe you will find these notes insightful, especially

with respect to improving your own abilities as an analyst and investor. Even if Lu is not

a Berkshire Hathaway CIO candidate, he is an investor with a tremendous work ethic

that we could all learn from.

Below are my notes from Lu’s lecture:

Li Lu at Columbia Business School – 2006

-15 years ago, Lu was accidentally brought in to a lecture by Warren Buffett. Had

epiphany moment, Lu thought he could do something in the investment business.

-At the time, Lu had just escaped China. Did not know very many people. No money,

deep in debt. Worried about making a living in the US.

-In the middle of Buffett speech, made him think differently about the stock market.

-The more Lu thought about it, the more he thought it was something he could do.

-Value investors see themselves as owners of a business. Therefore, fortunes are up

and down with the nature of the business.

-You demand a margin of safety.

3 Traits of a Value Investor:

1. Basically, you don’t think of yourself as a paper shuffler who constantly buys and

sells securities. You think of yourself as a real owner of the business.

2. You only own a small piece of the business, so you demand a huge margin of safety.

3. Because you think of yourself as an owner, not trading all the time, you think

everyone else is different — like Ben Graham’s Mr. Market

On Value Investing

-Under 5% of all assets are run under value investors, a real minority in the investment

world.

-The stock market is created for the other 95% of people, that is where your opportunity

and challenge is.

-That was one lesson that stuck in Lu’s mind when listening to Buffett’s lecture.

-Biggest challenge: understand whether you are the 5% or the 95%

-It is tempting to do what the other 95% of people do. Emotionally very difficult to be in

the 5%, but value investors typically have better returns. The money is really for traders

and they tend to amass more assets.

-5% have a spectacular return, but 95% of money probably always resides to

somewhere else.

-Understand who you are. You will be tested. You will have to ask yourself whether you

are or aren’t a value investor.

-If you are a value investor, you are probably genetically mutated and comfortable being

in the minority. This is unnatural to human beings. You have to be comfortable being by

yourself. You have to adopt the idea that you are right because your reason and

evidence, not because others agree with you.

-You will probably spend most of your time being an academic researcher rather than a

professional. You are a researcher or journalist, with insatiable curiosity. You are trying

to figure out how everything works.

-The more you know, the better you are as an investor.

-Politics, science, technology, literature, poetry, everything can affect businesses and

help you.

-Occasionally you can find insights that will give you tremendous insights that other

people don’t have.

-Then you find if the business is cheap. Is the management good? What else? Why is

the opportunity there?

-Started fund in late 1997. Been through really traumatic events: Asian Financial Crisis,

Tech Bubble.

-Fall of 1998: Lu’s search process is very general. Got hooked on value line, loved to

read the whole thing from beginning to end. The best kind of education, you should do

this if you want encyclopedic knowledge of companies. Go through it page after page, it

is enormously helpful.

-First thing Lu checks is new low list. New low P/Es, P/Bs, etc.

-Does not care where something traded before.

-First looks at valuation. If the valuation doesn’t fit, doesn’t go beyond it.

-If you see a low P/B ratio, ask – What is in the book? How much is the book?

-Encyclopedic knowledge is helpful when looking across different industries.

-Look at pre-tax and pre-interest earnings. Look from an un-leveraged basis. Figure out

how much capital is deployed in the business. Look at ROIC.

Example: Timberland

-Start by giving a 5 second look at the business. Timberland. The business is trading

around clean book value, consisting mostly of tangible liquid assets, working capital,

plus 100M in real estate. Deployed capital is 200M with 100M return.

-Then check why the business fell apart and became cheap. Think if you had owned the

entire business at that price.

-At the time, was the height of the Asian Financial Crisis, saw their sales falling off the

cliff in Asia. Any thing with exposure to Asia was falling apart. Try to check what other

people are thinking about this. You may not listen to their advice but you may want to

know what other people are looking at.

-Timberland had no other analysts covering it.

-Why no coverage?

-Look at business across years. Timberland has been growing, pretty profitable, did not

need financial markets. Family owned. Owns 40% controlling 98% vote.

-Immediately, that is a turnoff to most people. You can do a quick data search.

-You need to have a curious, active mind to ask questions and find answers.

-Timberland had most of the vote, no analyst coverage, a bunch of shareholder

lawsuits. If you were a member of the other 95% of the investment business you might

say maybe management is milking the business.

-Download every court document lawsuit. Read it. You NEED a very curious mind to

figure out WHAT is happening. Dig every single time. READ EVERYTHING.

-The first time, it takes a couple minutes to look over financials. Then gather questions

and do deep research.

-Most lawsuits came from Timberland missing guidance, annoying investors, which

annoyed the owner of the business. They decided to stop talking to Wall Street. So it

was not about milking the business or fraud. They were not crooks.

-How do you determine if they are good managers? Decent people?

-Act like an investigative journalist. Most business owners leave a trail for you to follow

and see how they deal with different situations. Most professional managers would not

see this as part of their job, but YOU are part of their 5%.

-Go to their community, visit people they know, their Church, their Synagogue, introduce

yourself to their friends and neighbors. It is worth it to spend as much time as possible,

to find what these business people have done and what their neighbors say about them

to accurately get an idea of their personality.

-The father seemed like a simple, decent guy, just a high school graduate. the son went

to business school, was already COO of the company even though he was Lu’s age. Lu

saw what boards the son sat on, and noticed that they had a mutual friend. Managed to

get himself on the board with the son and became friends quickly. Came to realize

these where high quality, very ethical businessmen.

-After all that, saw the stock was still trading low. Decided he did not miss anything. The

other 95% may not have done enough research to see this or have some kind of

institutional imperative that prevents them from owning.

-If you are not a good analyst, you will never be a good investor.

-But we decide to buy. How much do we buy? Imagine having $900. The other 95% will

take tiny positions, 50 basis points. You need to use concentration, a $200 position.

Think of how much work you did. Lu visited all the stores to see how margins improved

– they had a fad going on where kids wanted the shoes. Their asian business is tiny,

reduced earnings by less than 5%.

-Lu put a ton into Timberland. What happened after next 2 years? Stock went up 700%.

Propelled by earnings. No real risk – went from trading at 5x earnings to 15x with

earnings growing 30% a year. It adds up.

Be a Learning Machine

-When an investment opportunity comes, you have to seize it. Devote day and night so

you can act quickly. Do everything complete but do it fast. You have to train yourself to

jump on opportunity.

-When opportunity presents itself you can smell it. The only way to do that is by training

yourself and reading page after page of financial report.

-Uses S&P manuals for viewing foreign stocks.

-As an owner, don’t think about per share information.

-Use your brain, when looking at stock manuals, each page should really only take 5

minutes. Don’t use calculators. Use mental math.

Example: Korean Company

-60M market cap, pre-tax earnings of 31M, roughly 2x pre-tax earnings.

-Book value of 230M, what constitutes book value? If you are an owner, look at: fixed

assets, working capital, don’t count on goodwill.

-Basically you see with 60M in market cap, 30M in pre-tax, $240M in book value

($180M in fixed assets)

-It might be cheap.

-Determine what the earnings is. The book. The working capital.

-Use common sense, common logic and think about the business.

-Most employees never went to business school, Lu finds they are easier to train.

-Of the 70M in current assets, it is all cash

-Of 180M in fixed assets, they own 100% of a hotel, recorded 30M as book. Own 13%

of a department store recorded as 30M.

-Look up the department store, it roughly has a market cap of 600M. 13% gives you

roughly 80M. So the book value undervalues it by another 50M.

-They own 15% of 3 cable companies and a whole bunch of real estate.

-The department store has exactly the same profile. Trading roughly around cash and

investments, good earnings, and own a whole bunch of assets. Turns out they are the

second largest cable operator as well

-The department store operates like a hotel, do not take inventory, more like a shopping

mall.

-They charge a percentage on the top line of all merchant sales.

-Put it all together: Paying 60M, 70M in net cash, another 100M in stock, 30M in hotel

with a value that has not been changed in last 10 years while real estate market has

gone up in 10 years. Went to Korea, looked at hotel and department stores.

-Checked recent transaction of properties in neighborhood, value is likely 2-3x what is

on the book. But take what is on the book anyway, add 150M. Add that to rest and you

get 320M in assets that you are paying 60M for and earning 30M annually from

operations.

-Insiders own 50%

-Many factors going in your favor, but you need to look at how local investors see it.

They need to be buying it for the price to go up.

-Department store used to trade at 22 went to 100

-This company was at 12 now trades around 70

-each went up 5-6x

Don’t just listen. Do it.

-This type of an approach is not natural to an investor.

-If you decide your personality fits in with the mutated gene pool, that this is something

you might be looking to do, there is a lot of money in it — proven by Ben Graham to

Buffett

-You have to put in a lot of work into your analysis.

-You can make a lot of money if you are really interested, listening, and actually DOING

IT.

-Lu benefited from listening to his value investing class and then actually going out and

doing the work required.

-Value investing is not really about theory, it is about what works.

-Young analysts have energy and nothing to lose, so they should go and do the work.

-Before you become a good investor, you need to be a good analyst.

Lu says you need two things to be a good analyst:

1. Provide accurate and complete information. You have to go to an extra length to get it

done. Most of the time you will stand alone against everybody else. If you are not

competent about what you know, you cannot possibly take conviction positions when

things go into free fall and everybody else is laughing at you.

2. Most money is not made in stocks from the examples. They do not provide out-sized

returns. You can do the Tweedy Brown/Graham or the Buffett/Munger school. Your

returns will come from a handful of stocks. You need tremendous insight by continuous

intense curiosity and study.

Investment Mistakes

-Most mistakes come from inaccurate or incomplete information.

-Biggest mistake: most people wanted 2 week or monthly returns. They wanted to go up

in down markets.

-Lu’s biggest mistake was straying, was working with Julian Robertson, started shorting

— have to think like a trader when you are shorting because your downside can be

unlimited. It’s like Charlie Munger says — having your hands tied behind your back

while getting into a fight.

-Missed the opportunity to buy a business below cash, even though Lu knew the

management and had great insights. The business subsequently went up 50-100x.

Could not bring himself to buy it because of his mindset at the time.

-You make a mistake when you have not finished your work but like it enough. You start

betting on probabilities instead of real analysis.

Constantly search for ideas

-In your life, you may only have 5-10 key moments of insight. You only get it from

continuous learning. Find an American business and then find the Asian counterpart.

Some businesses studied for 15 years. You need to know what that business is, how it

ticks, so you can swing with conviction. If you cannot do that you will not make huge

out-sized returns.

-If you do what Ben Graham or Tweedy Brown does, you will make 15-20% returns but

you wont make the huge returns of Buffett.

-The biggest ideas can give 10,000x returns.

-Opportunities are not easy to find. They require a lot of factors to come together –

Charlie Munger’s lollapalooza. You need a whole bunch of things working together

where you have the insight and are willing to bet.

-This is what drives Lu in business.

-Lu started in physics, mathematics, law, economics, got interested in other subjects.

Wife has a PhD in biology, he has learned a lot from her.

-Learn from everything, be intensely curious

-Eventually you will stumble into one big opportunity.

-In the meantime, you will stumble into Timberland style investments which aren’t bad.

-There might be years without opportunities, then years with a lot of opportunities.

-Depends on what becomes available to you.

-They do not come in a steady pace, not like once a week an idea.

-In 6 years, Lu had maybe 3-4 great ideas. But you get progressively better and better,

improving the amount of opportunities for you since you will be quicker at your analysis.

-Go through every day by learning something. In a year you have to learn a great deal.

-When Lu reads biology, physics, history, it is all searching for ideas. If one idea jumps

out, it is all Lu does. Rest of the time is spent with wife and kids and Lu learns from

them too, especially with seeing how human cognition develops which is enormously

important.

Li Lu’s Investing Checklist:

1. Is that cheap?

2. Is it a good business?

2. Who is running it?

3. What did I miss?

-Lu goes through the checklist, ‘what did I miss’ is greatly affected by psychology. This

kind of cognition happens early on and Lu learns it from interacting with his girls.

Three characteristics of a value investor:

1. Business owner mentality

2. Difference in time horizon

3. Demand a huge margin of safety

Think like a Business Owner

-It all comes from one thing, that you are a business owner. You cannot force

management changes, so you demand a margin of safety. You have a long time

horizon because you think like an owner.

-But why dabble with stock market? Stock markets are made for people who can dream.

That is why 95% of people never buy into value investing. Human nature prevents it.

-You do not belong to the stock market but you have to understand its perspective to

position yourself properly. If you are truly think like a business owner, you will eventually

leave the asset management business and run a real company. That is why Buffett and

Munger left it.

-Or you become a private equity investor.

-The people who the stock market is designed for are fundamentally flawed people.

Traders are bound to make mistakes due to fear or greed. They will always make room

for value investors.

-Used to be strict about selling with great business. Now, sometimes Lu feels he has

insights about the business that allows him to believe the probabilities are in his favor

for the business actually improving year after year.

-That is the law of distribution in good businesses. The leaders perform spectacularly

well.

-Selling makes you pay a huge amount of tax and you might not get that good buying

price again.

-If a business can generate 50-100% ROIC, the mathematics get interesting very

quickly.

-Caveat: you have to be very confident. Investment bankers use BS and project into

infinity. You cannot project that long. There are only a few opportunities where you can

project that long.

-If you are good, and spend your entire lifetime studying, across 50 year career maybe

5-10 opportunities where you can confidently project the next 10-20 years. At that point,

you don’t want to sell. By holding you don’t pay the tax on capital gains, so you are

really compounding 40% interest free, the business is deploying the capital at 40-100%

a year in a tax efficient manner. That is what you do.

-You have to identify businesses that are getting stronger and stronger every year.

-What makes one business more successful than others? Why are they making more

and more money compared to others?

-The only way you can find that is by studying the ones that are established.

-Look for great businesses, not just businesses owned by Warren Buffett

Example of a great business: Bloomberg LP

-Product was superior to others, high switching costs

-Bloomberg is a fabulous case study, it came out of no where.

-Gained market share little by little, crossed a milestone point, became a monopoly

-At a certain point, after being highly relied upon for daily work, the switching costs

become to high so winner takes all.

-Suppose you have an opportunity to see how an industry evolves early on. At a certain

point they cross the line

-Maybe when introduced to all businesses. There is a time when that line gets crossed

and a public company is poised to benefit by becoming a monopoly business.

-Why did Microsoft succeed over Apple? Little by little they eroded Apple’s 100% market

share.

-Offices were using Windows. Today – do you have a choice of not using Bloomberg?

-Bloomberg visits almost every month and asks what you do, how you use the system.

Bloomberg terminals have tens of thousands of functions, they don’t give you a manual

-They want you visually hooked so it is a behavioral connection and you don’t mind

paying tens of thousands of years where you don’t have a choice if they raise prices

-They keep coming back to you because they know you are a trader and want to

provide you with more services so you are hooked.

-That is why Bloomberg is a fabulous business because you get hooked. Think about

switching from that or a competitor coming up with a rival product. How do you compete

with that?

-Lu doesn’t know. Suppose you know the inflexion point. Do you want to invest? Lu

would invest in Bloomberg at that point.

-You need insight. Study every business. They all have more or less this type of

dynamic.

-Your job as a good financial analyst is to study that business ALL THE TIME. Observe

those trends.

-Once in your life, maybe you will find that opportunity.

-Why doesn’t Bloomberg want to sell? He doesn’t need to sell.

-When you have a business like that, you don’t need to sell.

-Lu has made many private investments, ex: CapitalIQ, which copies Bloomberg’s

business model. Same method with an investment in an engineering service.

-Lu likes to know as much as he can. He likes to be friends with people, with

Timberland, the CEO and his son actually became investors in Lu’s fund.

-You can learn and observe from everyday business decisions and learn dynamics.

-Nothing is constant. Everything is changing that is why you have to keep learning.

-Businesses change, Microsoft has threats now.

-You need an active mind, so you are prepared to act and you can seize opportunity

due to your insights.