Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 22 OCTOBER 1919

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

111 inisterial Changes. [22 OCTOBER.) Questwns. 1491.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

vVEDXESDAY, 22 OCTOBER, 1919.

The SPEAKER (Hon. vV. Lennon, Herbert) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock p.m.

MINISTERIAL CHANGES. The PRE:VliER (Hon. K G. Theodore,

Chilla{!ot), who was received with Govern­ment "He·ar, hears! " said: I desire to inform the House that the Ryan Ministry has resigned, and that His Excellency the Governor entrusted me with tho task of forming a GovCl'nmcnt, which I have done. The Ministry is as follows:-

Prernier, Chief SecretarY, and Treasurer -Hon. K G. Thcod'Ore;

Secretary for Railways and Minister of Justice-Hon. J. A. Fihelly;

Secretary for 1\iincs-Hon. A. J. Jones, M.L.C.;

Secretary for Agriculture and Stock­lion. W. K. Gillies;

Homo Secretary-lion. \V. McCormack. SccrC'tn.ry for l'ublic Lands-Hon. J. H.

Covne; Secret~ rv for Public Instruction-Hon.

.J. ttuxham. Secretary for PL1blic \Vorks-I-Ion. J.

Larc~Dmbc; MinistPJ' \\·ithout portfolio-Hon. J.

Mull an.

I now h1y on the table a copy of the "Govt~rnrncnt Gazette Extraordinary'' issued to-day, and contai11ing a notification of these appointmcrit,s. GOYERX~JEK'f i1181lllERS: Hear, hear!

. Mr. MACARThEY ('l'oou:ong): I de-sire, If I may, to congratulate the new leader of the GO\·crnment. 1\fr. Theodore, on his

be-ing handed the King's commission. I think that most members of the House re-alise the great ability which Mr. Theodore has at all timf's shown in connection with parlia­mentary businC'ss, a.nd \Ve welco1ne him as the lcacl..r of the House. (Hear, hear!) He h_as been rccog·nisecl, I think, for a long time as ono of the constrnetive forces behind the la.tc loader of tho party. I desire to heartily congratn]ate him and his new colleagues on the front bench, and to say to him that. as far as the Opposition is concerned. it will at all timPs be pre·pared to render him all possible assistance in connection with the conduct of the business of the Home, as in the case of his predecessor.

HONOURABLE MnJBEHS: Hear, hem·!

The PHEMTER : In acknowledging the expressions of the goodwill of the leader of the Opposition, I desire to thank him for the se-ntiments he has given utterance to, and for his promises to assist in the conduct of the business of the House, and to assure him that it is my hope, at any rate, that the rdations'1ip between the loader of the Oppo­sition and my:oelf as leade·r of the House will be of the friendlie·;t character, and that any difference we may have will be based solely upon differences arisinO' from differing policies, and not as a rc,;;'lt of any personal antagonism.

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! The PRE:\liER: I hope• that the proceed­

ings of the House may be considered from

that point of view, and that, so far as it is possible with all members, personalities and anything other than political considerations may be entirely removed from the considera· tio11 of the business of the House.

HONOl:RABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PAPERS. The following papers, laid on the table,

were ordered to be printed:-Gas regulations, dated 9th October, 1919. Heport of the Department of Public

Lands for the year 1918. The following paper was laid on the

table:--Return to an order rdatiye to Govern­

ment employees outside of Public Service Act, made by the House, on motion of Mr. Petrie·, on 2nd September last.

QUESTIOKS. BORDER QUARANTJXE CBIP.

Mr. SW A YNE (Jl irani) asked the Home Sccn)t?-ry-

" 1. How many pe·rmits were issued to returning Queenslandcrs co1ning to the border quarantine camps from Sydney during the ftrst influenza outbreak in Sydney in February and March last?

"2. To whom were permits Nos. 1 to 15 jssucd in Hcbruary? "

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. W. 2\1cCormack, Cairns) replied-

" 1. 2,102, covering 4,221 persons. "2. No. 1-13th February, E. N. Free,

M.L.A.; Ko. 2-13th February, W. Graham; Ko. 3-13th February, Miss \V. Moore; No. 4-13th February. can­celled; No. 5-13th February, ·G. L . Boa!; No. 6-14th February, Mrs. E. Dolman and son; Nos. 7 and 8-Speci­mcns given to North Coast Steamship Company; No. 9-17th February, Lieut. W. McKinnon; No. 10-19th February, iiirs. G. J. Buchanan and child· No. ll--19th February, Mrs. Nellie Ryan; No. 12-19th February, Rev. G. M. Clark, wife, and four boys (ages thir­teen, eleven, nine, and six) ; No. 13-19tb February, Mrs. M. J. Butress and child; No. 14-17th February, Mrs. D. Barber; No. 15-17th February, Mr. Vie. Jensen, wife, and two children (fourteen and eight years)."

YIOTOR-CYCLES 0WxED BY PVBLIO \VoRKS DEP.mnrExT.

Mr. PETHIE (Toombul) asked the Secre­tary for Public vVorks-

" I-Io\v rnany rnotor-c;,-cles arc at present O\Vned l>y his depart1nent? "

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC ·wo.RKS (Hon. J. Larcombe, 11 eppcl) replied-

" Five."

NU}IBER OF OFFICERS IN PUBLIC SERYICE. Mr. PETRIE asked the Premier-

"What is the total number of officers in all branchlls of the public eervice employed under the provisions of the Public Service Act at the present time?"

The PREMIER replied-" Public service, 1,419; teaching staff,

2,169; total, 3,588."

1492 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] (.,!uestio1'8,

Pl.:nLIC SERVANTS DRAWIXG £400 AND OYER.

:\Jr. PETRIE asked the Premier-" How_ m any officers of the public

eervrce m (a) the professional divi•.ion (b) .ordinary {]ivision, are drawing salanos of £400 per annum and over during the current year? "

The PREMIER replied­" (a) 108; (b) 104."

PROPOSAL OF CANE FARMERS TO \YORK PROSERPIXE MILL.

Mr. SW AYNE asked the Treasurer-" 1. If, during the recent strike at

Proserpine Mill, he received a telegram from the cane farmers there reqnesting that, in order to keep the mill working and so save loss. thev be permitted to mfin and work it? ·

"2. If so, what was his reply? "

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe) replied-

"l.Yes. " 2. Appreciation "as expressed of the

offer, also of the fact that in the moan­time an amicable settlement had been effected, ctnd the mill employees had rosu1ned work."

BRE.\OH OF RAILWAY RFLE. 1\lr. MORGAN (Jiurilla) asked the Secre­

tary for Haihmys-" \Vill he lay upon the table of the

IIou"e (IJl p:.;_)crs in connection '.vith the inquiry h-Id on the 5th Scptcmhr, 1919, into breach of rule 18B bv Coachlmikler F. D. JYlorgan, South BriSbane? "

The SECRETARY FOR RA1LWAYS (Hon. ,T. A. Fihclly, Parldington) replied-

" No, but the pa)lcrs wiil be made available to ally honourable 1ncrnber on applicntion at the Hailway Commis­sioner's office."

0BLIGA1'IONS OF FARMERS TO GovERN}fENT SAVI:-<GS BANK.

Mr. J'IIORGAi'~ asked the Treasurer-" \V ill he interview the Commissioner

for GoYern1nent Savings Bank with a vie,,- to restraining· hlm fr01n harassing his farmer clients- who are unable to meet their obligations owing to serious drought conditions?,

The TREASUHER replied-" The Commissioner of the Savings

Bank informs me that he is not harass­ing borrowers who are, owing to tho effects of the drought, unable to pay their dues. In only a comparatively few cases involving arrears outstanding-in n1ost instances long- anterior to pre"'ent drought -and only after careful consideration of the merits of the particular ca~o, has action been taken with a vrew of enforcing payn1ent."

COMPLETION OF MOUNT EDWARDS LINE.

Mr. GUNN (Carnarvon), in the absence of Mr. Bell, asked the Secretary for Railways­

" In view. of the fact that the farmers of Fassifern are desirous of putting

increased areas under cultivation, wiil he intimate when he c•xpects to have tho l\1ount Edwards raih.-ay line com­pleted'"

'l'he SECHET".\HY FOR RAILWAYS replied-

" I cannot say definitely, but so soon as rnaterial-i.c., sleepers and rails are av>~ilable, the line will be pushed' on."

TER~I OF SERVICE OF CAPTAINS RoMEH AND RHODES.

M1·. FOLEY (Jiuncl-ingburra) asked the Treasurer~

""Will he state for the information of the House the term of service in the Governmont employ in the Harbours and Riw·rs Department of Captain Romer, harbour-master at Townsville, and of Captain Rhodes, harbour-master at Rockhampton '!"

The TREASuRER replied-" Captain Romer, between thirty-four

and thirty-five years; Captain Rhodes, nine years."

TAXATIOX PAID BY STATE BuTCHEnms. Mr. ROBEHTS (East Tno1coombrt) asked

the Minister in charge of State enterprises­" \Yhat (a) State, (b) Federal ta"es

were paid by tlw State butcheries during the year ended 30th Juno, 1919 '!"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. Lnc•·combo, lieppci) replied-

·• NiL"

CERTIFICATES UKDER "\LIEXS RESTUIOTION ACT.

Mr. ROBERTS asked the' Premier-" 1. 1-Io\v 1nany a11plications for cer­

tificates under the Aliens Restriction Act have been applied for in Queensland during the year ended 30th J uno, 1919?

"2. How manv certificates have been granted under the Act?"

The PHE::\HER replied­" 1. 22. "2. 8."

ADV"\NC:ES u:-<DER THE QuEENSLAND GovERN-1JEKT SAVINGS BAXK AcT OF 1916.

Mr. MORGAN, in the absence of Mr. Vowles. asked tho Treasurer-

" 1. Is it a fact that the whole of a section of public servants who are employed as -officers of the Queensland Government Savings Bank are precluded frotn obtaining advances under the Queensland G,;vornment Savings Bank Act of 1916?

"2. In view of the fact that it is proposed to prevent persons in receipt of an income of £416 taking adva11tage of the Act, is there any reason why this section of the public service should be denied the advantage that other public servants will ha.-e if the Bill recently passed through this Chamber becomes law?"

The TREASURER replied­" 1. No. " 2. See answer to No. 1."

Port Dues, Etc., Bill. [22 OCTOBER.] Fire Brigades Bill 1493

CO~STITGTION ACT A::\fENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

The PREMIER : I beo· to move-" That the Bill b~ now read a third

time." Question put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Barber , Hertram

Brcnnan Carter Col!ins Cooper, F. A. Cooper, \V. Coyne Fihel!y Foley Forde Gillics Gledson Hartley Huxham Kirwan Land Larcombe Lloyd

AYEs, 37.

'llr. 1f cCormack " ~icLauhlan

Mullan " o·~ullivan , Payne

Peterson Pollock Hiordan Ryan, D. Hyan, H. J Smith 8topford 'l'hcodore 'fh·ompson Weir Whitford Wi!son "\V instanley

Tellers: Mr. Carter and Mr. Smith.

Mr. Appel , Barnes, \V. H. , Bayley

Bebbington Oorser

, Elphinstone , Fry . , Gunn , Rodge

NoEs, 18.

1\:Ir. l\facartney Moore M organ Petrie llobcrts Sizer Swavne 'fayior \Varren

Tellers: Mr. Fry nnd Mr. Warren. Resolved in the affirmative.

The r:ill 'Y"s orden;d to be transmitted to

bthe Legislctti_ve Council for their concurrence

Y Hl8:':'"lagc 1n the usual form.

PORT DUES REYISION Af'T A:.\fEND­:\<fE~T BILL.

INITIATION.

The TREASURER, in moving-. ".That the House will, at its next

sittmg, resolve itself into a Committee of the. Whole t_o cons1der of the desirableness of mtroducmg a Bill to amend the Port Dues ReviSion Act of 1882, in certain particulars,"

said : I might mention that the Common­wealth Government have intimated to the Government of Queensland, and presumably ~o the. Government~ of the other States, their mtcn~wn to p:ocJaun the Navigation Act, or ce_rtam provmwns of It, to be in force. That will ht.tvc some effect upon port dues as l~v1ed m Queen~land, for under the Naviga­twn Act they v.dl take m·er, it is presumed, the pilot servJCes. That necessitates the separation of tho ordinary port dues from the pilotage dues. The obligation will still rest upon the State Government of the upkeep of horbours and harbour li~hts for which port clues will bc nccessan~ it is necessary to make an allocation of· the dues so that the pilotage sen·ices can be handed over to the Commonwealth and the pilot dues as !lOW levied by the 'State will then ceasc>. This Bill is principally to enable that to be done. •

HoN. W. H. BARNES WuTimba): I know that the Treasurer cannot reply again except

by interjection. but I would like to ask whether· he has any idea as to when t1w Com.monwculth purpost>s taking over the scrv1ces he has mentioned?

The TREASURER: The communication from the Commonwealth indicated that thev would take them over ut an early date. •

Question put and passed.

QUEENSLAND J'\ATIONAL LIMITED (AGREEMENT) AMEND:VIE~T BILL.

INITIATION.

The TREASL'RER, in moving-

BANK, ACT

" That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to considDr of the desirableness of introducing· a Bill to amend the Queensland National Bank, Limited (Agreement) Act of 1904, by repealing section 6 thereof,"

said : Section 6 of the agreement refers to the half-yearly audit. and, as the bank has disDharged its obligations to the Government -liquidtJted its liability to the Government­there is, according to the opinion of the Auditor-Gonerai, Ho noce,.,,ity to continue the half-yearly audits of the Queensland National Bank acconnts anv mm·e than of the other trading banks' ncc'ounts, and for that reason it is intended to amend t·he agreement by making provision that the audits shall be discontinued.

Question put and passed .

FAIR REKTS BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. Larcombe, KcJ!lHl}, in moving-

" That the How·c will, at its next "itting, rC'oJlvf' itself into a Committee of the \Vholo to comidPl' of the dosirablenese. of introducing a Bill to provide for the determination of fuir rents for dwelling­houses, and for purposes consequent thereon or incidental thereto,"

said: The Bill is really complementary upon the Profitcering Preyention Bill. That. Bill is desig·ned to see generally that the c1tizens of the State s·hall get food at reasonable prices. This Bill is de·· igned to prevent profitccring in house rentals. It will provide that house shelter shall also be provided to the pe0ple at fair rentals. It is proposed to establish a board to which appca16 <an be made to determine the question of whether a rental is fair. All the necessary machinery will be provided to ascertain the cost of land and buildings, all nCC'{~SSUl'Y busin0ss al1o\v­ances will be made. and after the fullest information and evidence ·have be(m secured the rental will be arrived at bv the magistrate. I do not think that a further explanation at this stage is necessary. I have outlined briefly the principle of the Bill.

Question put and passed.

FIRE BRIGADES BILL.

I XTRODl:CTIOX IN COJ\Ji\IITTI:E.

(lfr. Birlrarn, Jfarre, in the chair.)

The IIO:Yl.E SECRETARY move·d-" That it is desirable that a. Bill be

introduced to consolidate and amend tho la\v relating to fire brigades."

Hon. W. McCormack.]

Jimbour Selections Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Projiteering P1ucntion Bill.

::\lr. :YlACARTNEY: I would like to ask the II{)]ue Secretary if I understood him

aright, that practically an agree­[4 Jl.!n.] mcnt has been arrived at between

this BiJI1 the Yarious intcrDsts affDDted by

The Hmm SECHET.\RY: I understand that is the ca,se. This is a subject-matter of au agrcen1cnt ·which has LE(..:n arrived at.

Quc.-tion put and passe-d.

The House r0sunwd. The CHAIRMA:-i reported that the Committee had come to a rPsolution. ancl the resolution 1vas agreed to by the House.

FIRST READE-IG.

Oo the motion of the HOIYU.: SECRE­TARY. the Bill was read a first time.

The second roading wao made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

JIJVIBOL'R SELECTIO::\'S BILL.

INTRODT:CTlON IN CO)IMITTEE.

(Jir. Bcrtn·m, J{arec, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. J. H. Coyne, IVan·cgo), in moYing-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduct'd to .afford relief to ecleetors on the J imbour Hepnrcha,ed Estate, and to ruakc furthnr provision \vith respect to tht• selection of land on the sai-d estate,n

said: I have alrcadv outlined the provisions of the Bill, \vhich ]s to affor-d relief to the 'PlN'tOrS Oil Jirnbour and o·ive dfcct to the fmdiJJgs of tho Ho:- d Con~mission that was appointed to inquire inlo the condition of the selectors on that estate.

:\J:r .. CORSER (lJurnctt) : I underBta,nd that i-!vcry" n1c ~n Ler on this side of the I-:Iouso is please-d at the introduction of this Bill but while the Gov-ernment are about it I n1ight sug-D~cst that therP arn many other Pstat<•s in lluoensland as well as Crown land,; the conditions \vith l't'gard to which could

ell be revised, particular!v with regard to the prices which the Government have placed on those lands, also a-s to the nececsity of providing water thm·eon and the danger ~)£ pear ~prcading frorn adjacent Cro\vn lanch. \Yhik WP art• pleased with the intro­duction of this Dill we hope that the Govern­tncnt will continue the idea and rt:!vise prices and conditions on e"'tatrB in general, and in <'onnccrion with Grown lands where the "onditions imposed are impossible of being earned out by the selectors.

Ylr. ::V10RGA::\': I am pleased to know that at last the selectors on Jimbour arc going to get. something >v-hich will be of lasting benefit to tlwm. I remember when the ::\Iinister for Lands of the previous Administration intro-duced a Bill to deal with the Jimbonr settlers I sa,id the Govern­ment woulrl haYe to do something of a perma.nont nature for those people. I am Y-rry son·~T t-o "C'C that in connection with other estates the present Go.-ernmcnt aro doing cxactlv what \Yas done bv the Liberal Gon'rnmcnt · in respect to Ji;Jbour. Take for imtanco. Cccil Plains and :Ylount Hutton.

The CHAIRMA:\": Order !

Y1r . .MORGAN: :'\'either of these estates is any hotter than Jimbom·.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Discuss i~ on the second reading.

~.Mr. M a cart ne;:;.

:VIr. :YIORGA?--i: While this Bill is going t.-} gi.-e relief and afford assistance to the Jimbour people, unfortunately the Govern­tnrnt are still continuing to make sin1ilar 1nistaln:s in respect to other e'itates, and it will only be a matter of time when similar Bills will have to be intwclucod.

:\ir. COLLlXS : This is to rectify a mista,ke made by the Liberal GoYernment.

Mr. ::VIORGAK: I intend to deal with this matter fully on the second rea-ding. Settlers who go on the land should be afforded every opportunit_v of making a living, and thus prt"'ellt them from cycntually migrating into tho towns and cities.

Quo·tion put and passed. The Housn resumed. The CHAIRMAN

reported that the Committee had come to a resolution, which was agreed to by the House.

FIRST HEADING.

On the motion of the SF:CHETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:'\DS, the Bill was read a first tin1e.

The second reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrmv-.

PROFITEERING PREVE.:\'TION BILL.

SECOXIJ READIC>iG.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (l-Ion. J. LarcDinbe, ]{ epptl), -vvho, on rising, \.Yas rPcci,-ed with GoYerrnnent applause, said: I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. In doing so. I intf~nd to briefly ontlinc the g-eneral prin­ciples of the Bill, and also to place on record sotne fact;; and figures as to the sha1neful profit('ering that has been carried on in Queensland and in other parts of Australia during th0 la&t four or fivo yPar,,, with the sccnction of the Nationalist administration. 1.rbo an• no\Y in power in the Federal Parlia­ment. I intend to show that Queensland, and Australia gcnC'raJI~,·. i~ in the yico-like grip of pnxlatory con1hinations, and a Bill of this nature is ab:::olutely c~scntial in Quppnsland, as in other parts of An;;;tralia, in order that something like freedom of trade n1av be resurned here and clse;,\herc.

:\Ir. IviORG.\X : \Yhy wae this Bill not introduct'cl before?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: The hon. member knows quite well that this Gov-ernment had no power to deal with price-fixing during the currency of the war.

Mr. BEBBIXGTOJ\': Certainly you had.

The SECRETARY FOR PT:'BLIC WORKS: I will deal with that point during the culTnncy of rr(v remarks in due season, and cxpreQ-s my opinion, 3nd hon. n1omhers can challenge it if they like. Pursuing the tenor of mv rernarks, the information and evidence I ha.-e collected is taken from reliable authorltv-tnk('D frorn rf•ports of a reliable

. characte.r--anrl it is well that the information should be placc'd on record so that the people of Queensland may know the true position obtaining in Queensland to-day reg·arding the control of tmde and industry by JWrnic:ious combinations. I should like here to refer to the hostility of the daily Press. The "Brisbane Courier." after I had referred to the Bill in the introductory stages, came out with a, heading-

" The Communitv at the l'vlercy of a, Nii~isier."

That is just like so.ying that the community is at the mercy of themselves, because the

I'rofiteering [2~ OcTomm.] Prercntion Bill. 1495

'Y[inistcr is placed here by the people of Qtlf)ensland, and the Minister can be displaced by the people of Queensland.

Mr. MOHGAN: No; the MinistPr is placed thc,·e by caucuc.

The SECRETARY FOR PL:BLlC \YORKS: The Mini.,tcr is placed here by the people of Queensland. The members who place the JHinister hero aro placed in Parliament by the people of Queensland and they can be removed by a vote of the people. An Blection will take place, in the ordinary course of cwmts, in eighteen months' time, and the people can then pass judgment on our works. The " Courier" contends that if this Bill is pas··ed the people will be at the mercy of the Minister. I want to say that the com­munit:, to-day are at the mercy of commer­,eial trusts, harpies, yan1pires, and con1mereial cormorants, and it is for us to sav whether the people are to be protected by ~ Minister and Parliament or whether thev are to re1nain at the Inerc:v of these grerrf nlonopo­listic combinations which are damaging the State· by robbing tho consumers and producers alike.

:\1r. MoRGAX : Are you going to give us (OncrEte cases?

The SECRETARY FOR PL:BLIC \YORKS: I intend to gin' concrete cases. Like J'dr. Gradgrind. "Facts, sir; ·what I \Yant is facts." Like the hon. m em her for Murilla, I like facts and figures, and I intend to give them tD buttress the statements I am making at the present time.

I will deal first of all with tho price­fixing principles of th0 Bill. The principle of prlre-fixiug ha•" receiYed uniYPrsal aer.•pt­ancr. 1n all parts of the world prico­ftxing has been. approved of and has l>ccn adopt,,d by Governments irrespectivo of their political character. The svstem, I kncnv, is not p(~rfect, but no system· iS perfect. \Yhilc hun1an nature itself is inlpt•rfcct \VO ~ .u1not ha Ye a perfect system to govern price­fixing. Bnt this Bill will mitigate the evil t•f high prices. It ·will cnaj,lr us, in conjunc­tion ~with our State enterprises, to afford to the people some d<e'?;roo of protection against tho pernicious influences to which I have pro.-ionsl,v referred. I have studied the schem.os put forward in different parts of the world, and I utn say that tho Bill which

am submitting for the approval of thn contaim the bost provisions of t.he

Acts o]wration in other parts of the world. This will bc the most up-to-date legislation dealing with pricP-fixing, con1bination, and '~',)ntrol in the '.Hll'ld when it is passed. The Labour party have always adopted the policy of pricP-fixing. and our opponents have now adoptud it. :!'iot only hrwe our oppoucnts "rlopted it in Australia, bnt in othN parts of t.he world al,o. That is the natural course of Labour reform. First of all, it is reviled, but afte-rwards it is accepted and claimed by our opponents as having been in~tituted by thmn. Take the Commonwealth Bank and the Corntnonwcalth note issue as bvo n~markabln in tanC0S in proof of what I say. vVhen they wf'l'c first introduced and placed upon tho statnte-book they were strenuously opposed by Sir Joscph Cook and his collr~•lgues, hut, notwithstan.din~· that opposition, both those measures arc hnv to-day.

Hon. W. H. BIR~ES: We had a note i"ue in QueenFland before that.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC WORKS: Tioth the Commonwealth Bank and the Comm.onwenlth note issue have stood to the

credit of Australia during the period of the "a,., although they were on!:· placed on thG sb tute-book in the face of the strongest opposition of Sir J oscph Cook and the others "·ho occupy the Treasury benches in the F<·tlcral sphere to-day.

Hon. \V. H. BAHNES: vYhat about the Queensland note issue?

ThP SECRJ<;TARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: J ant spt•akjng about the Australian note i.-~-;ue and the Cornrnonwealth Bank. ':f..1he hon. gentleman knows quite well that they ,n_•ro pass('d in tho face of strenuous opposi­tion, yet our opponents no~-er dreamed of repcalinv, them. They came to recognise the soundness of the Labour's policy. They saw the soundness of Labour economics, and they accepted both of those proposals. The Com­monwoalth Bank and the note issue stood to the country in a time of great stress. rrhere has also been a remarkably changBd attitude on the qLtestion of price·fixing. If "·ages­fixing is necessary, then price-fixing is neccs­sarv. \Ye helicve that arbitration i.; nec~essary, al!J therefore 1-ve n1ust also have price-fixing. In proof of that, I might quote the authority of StanJc.y Jeyons, who sa vs-

" "If wage·s are to be arbitrarily settled in this way (by arbitration), there is no reason why tho sa.me thing should not be done \vith the prices of corn, iron, cotton, and other things.''

That JS a :::ound argtnncnt. \Ye cannot jogical!y di.scri1ninatP bPhvt'L'll fix1ng price:; and fixing \vages. ~'Ir. ,J uvoiJS was opposed to boih, but ho said the1t if ycu fixed wages and acce11t <-u·bitratinlJ-and '-~:P ha \"C act'epted vrbitration in tJuc':>nsland-thcn, logically, you ea nnot deny the principle a3 U-lJplJcd to the l)l'iccl o£ lleCf"'5sary cornruoditic~.

:\>Ir. :BBJmrxGTOX : Do >DU take into con­:3irl.eration tlw eost of pl'~)duction ·:

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC WORKS: "\Lsolutelv. I ,,.ill dPal ,,-ith that viewpoint ill a few ;))O!ncnts. rro have an effective pur­chasiug· power you 1nust flx price? as \:ell as yyageo If this i' clone it will brmg about the pmtection to rhe people of the State to whic·h the:;· are entitled at tho present tin1L'.

I '"ant to clcal briefly YYith a~nothor aspect of the quest.ion. Uuru expnricnct> of pr1ne­fixinn· is 11ot ne\V. \YP had it in Quecns­l;nd~ wht'n the war broke out.. but our ]JO\VPr ·was ;;.upersedcd _Ly n:gu1ations iss_ucd nndr-r tlw Y\Tar Prcraut1ons Act. That bnngs n1c to t.ht' point nHntionc·d b:- th0 hon. Inenl­ber for Drayton. The regulation under the \\-tu Precautions Act assurning F-ederal con­trol oyer pric~-flxing ·was issued by tl!c I-i'pdcral GoYcrnlncnt. VVhi1e \Ve ·were 1n

JlO'-''er we were able t.o deal with price-fixing until the regulatiops undl'l' the \Var Pr~cau­tions Act were pnt into force. The regulatwns i-:sued bv the Federal Governn1cnt covered about fiftv articles. I have thB list here, and on rcadi1;g them oyer I fwd thaic it left the St«te pract.iea.lly no pmym· to fix the.J1l'lCOs ?f anything. The leader of the Oppos1t10n sa.'d that something might have been don_e by tne State, notwithstc ndiuv, the proclamat10n.; that were iomod bv the Federal Government, but if anyone lool~s at those ftfty articles they will "cc that it effcctnall:r cuts awa,v all power fr-o:n the State'. I~~~gnrdinp; the Federal con­tml of price-fixing, I might ear that awards wore made, but lhc,v were only nommal and

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1496 [ASSEMBLY.] Prevention Bill.

thev vvcre never carried out. There were no pru"8ecutions for breaches of the awards, and thP Cotnmonw(·'mlth regulations ,, ere only laughed at. So that the po"·er of the State was effectually superseded by the Common· wealth, and the people of Queensland and other part' of Australia wore not protuctcd under those proclamations at all. 'When we see the way those regulations were operated it is absolute evidence of insincerity on the part of the Federal Government on the matter of price·fixing and profiteering.

Mr. ::\iORGAX: Is not the vVar Precautions Act in existence now?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Certainly. But the price-fixing regulations issued under the Act have been repealed, and that allows us to come in again. Conse· qucntly) W(~ can no\v come in and exercise 01_1r

powers unless the Federal Government, m order to defeat the object we have in view, come out with the issue of further price­fixing proclamations under the War Precau· tions Act. That Act continues to exist for three months after peace is signed with Germany and Austria. That power was given to the Federal Government by a Bill passed last session. I want to give a concrete instance to show that the Federal Government only played with the fixation of prices. The Interstate Commission were dele­gated by the Federal Government to inquire into the question of fixing meat prices in Aus­tralia. That commission is non-party, and is certainly non-La.bour. They went thoroughly into the question and secured voluminous evidence, and then made recommendations. One recomnwndation was that the price of cattle should be fixed on the hoof. The Interstate Cornruission recognised the sound­ness of the argument that the fixing of prices should commence at bedrock with the cattle. The Federal Government accepted that recommendation temporarily, and intended to put it into forro. The Prin1e Minister, JVIr. Hughes, made a statement to the Press to that effect, hut immediately he did so the pastoralists a.rranged a deputation in Melbourne. They went down to Melbourne .and held a pistol at the head of the Federal Government. What was the result? The Federal Government rderrcd that report back to the Interstate Commission and gave an assumnce that thev would act on the second report of the Co.mmission. The Corn· mission took further evidence, and they issued a report that '\Vas evcu stronger than the first report they published. From the second report they said it was essential that in fixin~ prices a C'Oll1lnenccmcnt must be made with the cattle. The Federal Govern· ment 11agrantly violated its promise and refused to carry out that recommendation, although they had agreed to do so when it was referred back to the Commission.

::Ylr. MOllGAX: Because they found it was impossible.

Th0 SECRETARY FOR PeBLIC WORKS: The hon. gentleman is wrong. Tlw Federal Gov-crn1ncnt appointed a. special tribunal to take the evidence of the pastoralists and the people generally on this question. The Com. :rnis·,ion ca.me to two re<~ornn1ondations~ similar in nature with the second stronger than the first, and yet the Federal Government refused absolutely to act upon either of those two rccom1nendations.

JVIr. '\ioHGAX: Do you propose to fix the price of cattle on the hoof?

[Hon. J. Larcombe.

The SECRETARY FOR PUDLIC \YORKS: I will deal with each point in its proper plaec. Just now I am pointing out tJ;c insinecritv of the Federal Government m dealing _;;ith priee·fixing.

Hon. vY. H. BAHNES: Are you going to S€1! State cattle at the Enoggera saleyards?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: I wi 11 deal with each point as I come to it. I am pointing out that the Kationalist Government in the Federal sphere absolutely refused to put into operation the report presented by the Interstate Commission, an expensive body appointed by the Federal Government to make recommendations. When those renmnn1endations were n1ade the Federal Government refused to carry them out.

l\Ir. MoHGAN: Because they were not practicable.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The hon. fi0,ntleman is in ?rror.. What. is the use of having an expensive tribunal hke the Interstate Commission if their reports can be ignored in that way? I will give evidence to show that while this Government had th<;: power in t.his State they dealt .effec­tively with the qumtion of the ,cost of hvmg. I will quote from the Commonwealth Statistician's report on prices and wages issued in 1917. It relates to prices for 1916. He savs-

'>'Taking combined expenditure on food, groceries, and rent of four-roomed houses, l\' ew South vVales is 5.9 per cent .. and \Vestcrn Australia 7.7 per cent. above the weighted average for thq Common­wealth, while Queensland is 10.3 per cent. Victoria 4.0 per cent., and Tas­mania 1.2 per cent. below the average."

Those figures show that the expenditure on foo-d, groceries, and rent showed that Queens­land was 10.3 below the average. That was during the time that we had control of price­fixing.

Mr. C'ORSER : You can thank the past Government for that.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: You can thank the Labour Govqrnment. It shows that the present Administration did things while they had the power for the benefit of the people of the State.

Mr. CORSER: The cost of living shows an increase of 61 per cent. in Qu.,ensland.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: In outlining the policy of the .Government i11 J'elcttion to price-fixing, I nnght supple­ment the remarks I made on that aspect of the question when speaking previot:sly. The 1nain principles in co_nnoct1on "~Ith pnqe­fixing arc (1) the appomtment of a commis· sioner of prices with power to appomt all tho officers nccessarv for carrying out the Act and' (2) the po~ver to call in ass~ssors. Th~t deals with the point raised by the hon. member for Dmvton. The primary pro­ducer the manufacturer, the retailer, and t.hc c~nsumcr will all bo considered in the fixing of pric~s. They will be call~d in to gi yo evidence before the a ward IS fix~. Thr;rofore, the Bill is fair to all. Effective regulations will be dra,:·n up embodymg the directions to the commiSSioner, and he will call in hiB assessors in the way I have m~m­tioned. That disposeo of the first p~)l·twr; of th<e BilL Before lea vmg the questwn or price·fixi11g. however, I .would like to say that this Bill does not mtroduce any new

Profiteering [22 OCTOBER.] Prevention Bill. 1497

principle. It simply transfers the power of price-fixing from combines and monopoli~s to the State. Prices are fixed to~day, and they have been fixed for years by commercial trusts and similar combinations in Queens­land and other parts of Australia. The power we are seeking is 'simply to tran6fer that power from these combinations to the State. It is no good urging that price-fixing is unsound, because it is hero to-day and is being exercised. It is being exercised by monopolistic combinations at present, and we say it should be exercised by the State. I want t;-, quote briefly from the report of the, Interstate Commission with regard to the fixing of the price of rice. They point out that there is a combination controlling the price of rice, and rule 13 of that com­bination reads as follows-

" Every member shall forward to the secretary a certifica t<;:, signed by him or his responsible manager, setting forth that from personal knowledge, after due and diligent inquiry, 'all sales made during the preceding month other than between members, were in strict con­formity with the association rules and regulations, and that the prices charged for same were strictly in accord with the prices notified by him to the secre­tary."

Then, in relation to milk. The Interstate Commission investigated the operations of thos.e who are concerned in the sale of con­densed milk, and under the heading of " Combinations in the Condensed Milk Trade," they repvrt as follows:-

" During the taking of evidence, an agreement, dated 1st April, 1915, was put in by which, in effect, all the Aus­tralian manufacturers, except one com­pany, ;;ell through one agent, the Nestle and Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Com­pany, and apportion the amount of trade to be done by each."

The r<cport continues-" The principal matters provided for

in the agreement are as follows:­Clause 1. The companies are bound

to abstain from competition with one another."

The companies are bound to abstain from competition with on~ another. Coming to the question of " ]'ruite," the Interstate Commission says-

" It will be seen, therefore, that the Commission regard the power and th(l control which the, association has been able to assume with considerable appre­hension for the public interest."

The Commission regarded the work of the Australian Dried Fruits Association, in con­trolling the Queensland and Australian dried

fruits, with a good deal of appre-[4.30 p.m.] hension. Coming now to the

question of salt, the Commisison report says-

" The association has an agreeme:1t binding the abovenamed refiners and manufacturers to certain methods of cli>­tribution. . . A fidelity and guarantee bond has been created, by which each member of the association has to contri­bute the sum of £250, which is held upon trust to secure the fulfilment and observance by each party of any agree­ment that is come to and to enforce the discharge of each member's obligationa."

Just one more quotation dealing with the question of the fixation of prices by com­binations and monopolies.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: You have not yet given uc any case of profiteering, as you promised.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I wi]] deal with proflteering later. I have s<'t myself out to give evidence taken from non-Labour reports, and from competent authoritieo, to prove that profiteering is rife, that fixo,tion of prices by combinatiott is rife, and I am dctermined to place that mforma­tion upon record.

Mr. MoORE: Co-operative protection, that is all it is.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I will read now a quotation from Mr. Wilkin­son on the "Trust Movement in Australia," and we will see where co-operative protection comes 1n.

lYir. MooRE : Those arc the ones you have been quoting so far-co-operative protection.

'fhe SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: If those combinations were not exacting extortionate prices from the people of Austra.lia the Interstate Commission would not makd itself so absurdly ridiculous as to report so unfavourably upon those combina­tions which are fixing prices. This is the point I am endeavouring to drive home now: that the fixing of prices takes place every day by the'e combinations, and if it can be done by them, it can be done by the State. It is simply a transference of powers from combinations to the State.

l\1r. BEBBINGTON : If these buyers of condensed milk and fruits could not get prices they could not pay the farmers a price.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I will give figures later to show that ~he profits in excess of fair profits are startlmg in the extreme.

Mr. BEBBTNGTOx : In regard to condensed milk and fruit?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: In regard to commodities generally. I will enumerate them as I proceed. Let me now quote from Mr. vVilkinson's work. Dealing with the tobacco trust ho said-

" The conditions that the trust imposes on the reta,ilers to prevent any competi­tion that would benefit the consumer can be gathered from the following intro­duction to Kronheimer's price list. It reads as follows :-

Conditions of sale.-Any goods sold by us arc supplied upon the express condition that the scale list of prices, as we !I as the terms and conditions con­tained therein, arc strictly adhered to, both as regards goods on hand and further supplies; and the acceptance of such supplies will be considered an agreement on the part of the pur­chaser to rigidly observe and enforce this condition. "The pona]t,- for any infringement of

these regulations is that the offender shall be no longer supplied at wholesale rates.

" The retailer is further bound by the Tobacconists' Association, one of whose rules jg-

In particular, the directors shall,

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1!98 Proflleering [ASSEMBLY.] Prevention Bill.

from time to time. draw up a schedule of prices to be charged by the asso­ciatiou to rncrnbers, and by n1enihers, for tobacco, cigars, cigarettes, pipes, and all other kinds of goods usually oold or .dealt in by retail tobacconists."

I contend that the evidence that I have adduced show~ that the foodstufis and the uec0S''aries of life are being controlled b,y con1bination to un alanning cxtPnt iu Queens­land and othu parts of Australia.

Mr. 1VlORGAX: You have not shown us any profiteoring. (Laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I have not come to the profitoeriug· section yet. I say that the'J' combinations are not only fixing- prices, l1ut they are fixing pricos against the best intPrests of the pElople of the StutP. They an~ robbing and flf~ccing thP consutners of the Stah~. Fair trade anJ free trade arc corbtantly preo.ched by our opponents. \i\Thcre arc thoRe ]avrs and phrases in relation to the evidence I have submitted' ThPy ehow that they .do not operate. and that these combinations fix prices, and that no such thing as fair trade and free trarle operates; aud it is as well that this fact bo emphasise-d.

Mr. BEBBING-TON: You Hlust got your cost of production; you cannot giYc things away.

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC \YORKS: I am not conten-ding otherwise. I am pointing octt that the Interstateo Commis­sion reported unfavourably upon those com­binations which arc fixing prices. This section of the Bill is for the purpose of transferring the fixation of prices from those cnmbinations to the Statr. It is to be eitlwr 1nonopolis.tic coutrol and f1xatlon or State cc~ntrol and fix<.;,tion. That is, briefly, the dlfieroncc.

Honourable members aro very anxJOus to hear wlmt I ha YO to say on the profitec)ring section. ~i_lhc profitcoring-prc­vention section of tlw Bill is very cmuprc­he-nsive and drastic, and D(~ccssarily 60 in view of the situation we ha vc to deal with. Time and again in Australia, when the Federal Government have attempted, undDr a certain Act, to se<"ure convictions ag·cti11st these combinations, they ha'""' failed. -They have failed in America. vv·hv: BecaUSP of the \Vant of cDJnprehcusiYf'tLe'_S of lt~gislation. Tho "Telegraph" cays this is a "dragnet Bill." You want a dragnet Bill to catch tho combinations in .. Australia to-day, and the poiYcrs 1nust necessarily be largf'.

Hon. \Y. II. B\R:<iES: This is a Bill 1\hich will pr ~vent trading· altogether.

The SEC!1ETAHY.FOR Pl:BLIG WORKS: No; the hon. Ilternbcr is qui to ln orl'or. It wi1l stimulato genuine trading, and protort the consumers of the State-the people generally, and the r~tailer too. This question c1f profiteering is of world-wide significance. It obtains in .\meric:a. England, France and Plsnwherc. and very dntstic provisions have been enforced in those countrif''S. In ma.nv instancns profitonrs llaYc hc0n sent to ga~'I without the option of a fine. Last wo0k we had information that in England threre have boen 1;300 prosecution~, and in France there havo been nlHIH~rous prosecutions · and imprisonnwnts without the option of a fine. In Italy they take summary action against

fHon . .J. Larcomhe.

them. In other parts of the world the law is very severe against the profiteer, and if (qluecnsland is to be abreast of the times a Bill of this nature must have very compre­hronsi,-e powers. The Bill socks to deal with proflt0C'l'ing because it affects all relations of life~--·.' ocial, industrial, and otherwise. The rcllrox action of high price and profiteer­ing is gP,ater, I think, than is generally cstirnatetl and realised. \Ve are frequently told tbat low production is the cause of hig·h prices. If that is so, how is it that to-day, in Australia, wben production was ucvc'r gTllater. the price of foodstuffs wa.s never hig·her? That absolutely contradicts thP argument that hig·h production in itself \\~culcl soh-e the question of high prices. In different parts of Australia to-day there are millions of bushels of wheat rotting, and look at the price of broa-d. (Opposition dissr>nt.)

111". BEnBIKGTOK : What di-d it cost to produce it: You want it for nothing.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC WORKS: Let ns not confuse the quest] on. I am replying· to the argument that low produc­tion is tlw cause of high prices. If that argument is sounrl. prices should be lower to-day than CYClr before, because production i~ higher.

Hon. \Y. H. BARNES: You know that is not so.

ThP SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: ':rhe hon. nwrnher knov\·s that before the war, and during the curr('ney of thP \Var, prices were high, and constantly increased as pro­duction increns( ,1_

:Vlr. l3EBBIXGTON : Certainly, on account of thP cost increasing.

Thro SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC WORKS: :High pric('"' increasing wlth production increasing 1s an in,·ersion of tho soundest principlP of political economy. It is IllOJ1stnJlB to think that the 1norc you pro­duce the higlwr arc the prices and the :"earccr js tho food.

jyh. BEBBIKGTOX: Because you increase the cost of production.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC WORKS: If hig-h production is the solution of high prirc';;; ho1Y is it prices are not low· in A1nPrica and Eng·]aHcl' Production in England an.d A m erica is fa 1Julou-s. but thr greater the production the hig-her the price; so it is quite' evident there is some other cause, r;on1e i1npropcr agency intervening to prevent the operation of sound, natural law. The cause, to n1y rni nd, is obvious, and the realisat.ion of t.hat cau'e has led tho Govern­ment to iHtroducc a Dill of this nature. The InV?rstate Co1nrnisslon pointed out some tinH:. ao·o that in Victoria, instead of Pncouraging production, great cmnbinations wer0 actuallv retarding it. A certain big combine act1~ally paid to keep certain fac­toriPs clo .. ed in orclPJ' that they might keep up pril'Cf3. I-Iovv do hon. gcntlcrncn account for the oxtraordinary actions of this oon:l-1Jination? It is thB opPratiou of these com­bination, which pay to keep works closed which is really resvonsiblc for the low preduction.

Hon. \V. H. BARKES: Don't forget that so far the~' arc only statement£ you arc makino­not facts.

Profiteering [22 OCTOBER.] Pret·ention Bill. 1499

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC WORKS: Thev are facts. \\-hich can be obtained bv offw;al evidence from the Interstate Uon-1-rnission's report and the jtfclbourno "..._<\gc." FurthPr, I vy·ant to refer to son1ething I know which took place while I was in Sydney twdvP months ago. During that u11fortunato indu'strial upheaval down there thomands of rnen \vero out of work, and thousands of "'ivcs and children were starving. They went round ·tho market to sccun~ son1c tons of _foodstuffs and other things which aro usually taken to the incinerator, but were refused pos-,ossion of those foodstuffs, which were carted away and burnt. The carter was paid to take them away and burn them in order to keep np prices, and yet there were women and children--the greatest assets of a nation­standing there wanting them. (Opposition dissent.)

Mr. C'ORSER: They were unfit for human consurnption.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC \YORKS: I\o; according to the Sydney "Sun "-a non-Labour paper-they were carted away in order that prices might be kept up.

Mr. CoRSER: Since you have bef'n in power there have bPc'n loads of fish dmpped in the S('a, and the PrC'rniPr kno1;\·s it. ,.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:TlLIC WORKS: That ~;tatomcnt is not reinforeed bv anv scrnblance of fact. u ~

The SPEAKER : Or-der ! I ask ~;on. mem­bers to refrain frorn intorjf-~cting and to permit the Minist<'r for Works to proceed \vith his remarks without interruption.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I hope that th" tim" occnpied by hon. mem­bers ir, interjecting \vi]] be taken off my tim". I am dcterminqd to place these facts on record, notwithstanding tho interjections -I am going to get the evidence out. It is a remarkable thing that tht .party opposit0, who profess to lw an nnti-profitecr­ing party, consistently and persistently oppose everv effort made bv m vs£' If or other hon. members on this side ,;f the Hous<' to deal with profiteering. \Ye arc met with nothing but hostil<; interjection and intf'rruption \vhen tvn endeavour to place our case against profitecring and rnonopoly before the H ous<'.

Mr. CoRSER: Ko case yc;t. Mr. Gr;.;N: ~o case.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: The hem. member for Burnott savs "No case." rr,he hon. ll1Cmbcr for Carnar;r~n savs, "?\o case." My remarks have been based on the assumption that prolitecring exists. The hon. 111ernber savs "No." In his Arca,dian .sin1plicit,y hf~ ·cannot see it. Like a modern Diogenes, he is going about with a lamp m h1s hand, and cannot soo a profitecT -(laughtcr)-hut I will giYe Pvidence to show that this profitecring cry is not a catch cry at all-that this argurn<'nt is not a catch cry. I say it ·f~ absolutelv sound, a.nd based upon evidence that is aYailablo throtwh the daily Press and the official reports. Let me quote from an adch-ess delivered by Mr. Just.icD Higgins under the auspices of the Public Qm·etions Committee of the Mel­bourne Universit ·. Hon. members are look­ing for exact information. \Vel!, the "Daily Mail" of 3rd August. 1919, says-

" Bitterness betw~en the classes has

been intensified by recent disclosures of profiteering during the war, and even since the arn1ist~ce.''

Then the president of the Sydney Chamber of Commerce, while repudiating the sug­ge··tion that th~ro was general profltcering, ''"ent on to say that-

" Ho was prepared to admit that there were' certain individuals who ought to be in gaol."

0PPOSITIOx :\lE3IBEHS: Quite true ! (La.ugh · ter.)

The SECRET~.\RY FOR Pl:BLIC WORKS: He \vas certainly not refcn·ing to n1cmbers on t.his side of the House. I want to Dall the attentio;1 of members further to the fact that the "Daily Mail," in a leading article under the heading of " Economic Problems" on the 11th August, said-

" Profitecring is not going to cease with the war. It is one of tho evils that have grown out of the competitive system.''

Those quotations arc evidence, I think, to buttress mv statement that profiteering has existed.

0

Mr. MoORE: That is all hearsa': evidence. Give us smne direct c'·idence. .. -

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC vYORKS: Tho hon. mmnbcr wants to abrogate all rules of logic and evidence absolutely. He has not got an open mind. Ho is not pr"pared to recoiYe this anti-profitecring evi.donce. But if that is only hearsay, let me give some­thing further. I want to quote a table show­ing the undistributed profits and rf)scrves of certain companies:-

Adelaide ~tea1n- £ £ £ shilJ Comrany 17!3,0{10 :10.S,00{) 1~~ ()()()

Huddart, Parker 7o,UOU 308,UOO ~3:),000 l)Jelbourre i")team- ' ship ('!JlllJ a 1y 175,000 ~20,000 ;):3,000 Union ~tf'1JlJShip

Conq a'JY :J:J:l,OOO 72~,000 169,000 Burns, Phi! p a·td

Comrany c!J.l,OOO ±D8,000 ~04,000 G-ol1\t'brl.ugh,

l\lort and Co... 3:3~,000, 61.",.0()0 77,000 Jlalgety attd Co. i 808,000 I Sfl~,ouo 44,000 }!Illaquin Con~~ : i

-ra'lY . . . . ! 71,0()0 1 78.000 7,000 C.S.R.~ Comrany J G:W,UUO 1 1,1~0,UOO 4\JO,OOO

Those flgun~,g aro doquent proof of profiteer­ing. They show that it exists and has been in cxlstence for ycarJ in Australia, and has bqcn permitted and condoned by the Govern­ment who pretend to be protecting the people, particularly th" returned soldier.

J\Ir. SrzER : You ought to be ashamed of yom·self.

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC WORKS: The hon. member is right-t.h~y ought to be ashamed of thems0lvcs. I want to quote very briefly from the minutes of a Grocers' Association deputation to the ex-Premier some time ago conc.;rning tho question of price-'fixing in Queensland, which have been handed to me by the Chief Secretary-

" It v, as a well-known fact that t.he wholesale men had roap<;d a great har­vc;;t during the last five years."

That is what the retailers say about. the

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1500 [ASSEMBLY.] Prevention BW.

wholesalers. and yet hon. members opposite say there is no profit"cring J

Mr. SIZER: We did not say that. Mr. BEBBIXGTOX: We did not say anything

of the sort.

The SECRETARY FOR PVBLIC vYORKS: The hon. member for Carnarvon said he could not find evidence of 'profiteering, and other hon. members say that I am only makin~ statements. Now that I haYo given concrete evidence, they arc not satiefied. Those figures of undistributed profits and resencs are astonishing. They amount to a forcible r()volation, and if members opposite can be convinood at all, then those facts and figures are convincing beyond t.h'l power of eloquence of any speaker. Further, the Interstate Commission, in their report under the heading of " Profits of Australian Manufacturers and Wholesale and Retail Distributors," say-

" The abnormal conditions of trade and shipping occasioned by the war, involving restricted suppliGs, have enabled manu­facturers and distributors, with rare Dxceptions, to increase their profits, and these eonditions have been availed of for that purpose in certain instances to a remarkable extent."

As the proftts of manufacture and ordinary trading largely increased, so apparently those diroctlv interested became conscious of the undosir.ability of disrlosing in the ordinary manner the increasingly profitable nature of their return;;,

" Reserves from profits, hidden as well as open, wen;) created; watered stock issued, unreasonable amounts \vero written off as a depreciation of assets; in one case, at least, a large amount, hidden from view by including it under 'Sundry creditors,' wa.s alleged, on crGsS­examiwtt'ion, to have been set apart to moot possible claims under the war profits tax. These and other similar methods sugg~st som<>what etrongly that there was a fear in the minds of those respon­sible that a clear and informative state­ment of their trade operations, intelli­gible to the ordinary citizen, would court conHnent and criticism."

I think that extract is further evidence of the increased profits that have been made during the currency of the war and the unfair profiteering in which certain persons and organisations have indnlged. This Conlnli;:'sion is a" non-Labour tribunal. Its only object is to place before the Govern­ment and the people of Australia the full faets and the honest evidence available by a perusal of the business statements of the companies and individuals concerned. As regards softgoods and profitf3ering, they sveak as follows :-

" The balance-sheets of sixteen soft­goods warehousemen have been submitted to careful investigation, as also those of five indcntors and importers.

" In 1914 the capital of the wholesale softgoods warehousemen was £3,553,535, the net profit was £296,189, and the net J>rofit on capital was 8 per cent. In 1917 the figures were-Capital £3,646,492, the increase in capital being about 1~ per cent., the net profit was £554,780 and the net proflt on capital was 15 per 'cont., . or practically double."

Now I desire to give a few figures regarding

[Hon. J. Larcombe.

clothing manufacturers generally, taken from the Interstate Commission's report-

. j . 1 · v p f't I Pereenta~e ~~~~ Oa:ta · ~£~~~-on Cajntal.

1914 .. l,li-U85 li;;; .'l.S! , ]:3:4 1915 .. 1.150 .j •. jr) • 3.\·1.(1]2 I 2~)·5

1916 I 1,211,736 '_ ·17".01~----:'·.~---

Let me give a few figures from the Interst>tte Comrni,sion's report regarding the profits of the Yacuum Oil Company-

Year.

1Hl4 "

1>!15 .. lU16

I

I I

I'Hid-np rapital

£ 60tJ,00(~

HOO,OOO H 0,00()

Profit.

f: 27 :1!.020 4' 2 560 57D, 20

l'ercentage of Profit ..

"1,5 50 72

and yet hon. members opposite say that there is no profitccring J

Mr. SIZER : \'\;-e never said that.

'The SECRETARY FOR PVBLIC WORKS: The hon. member for Carnarvon said he could not find any evidence of it.

Mr. Guxx: When did I say that?

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: \Yhon speaking· on the Address in Reply. ThE' Inte12tatc Commission, dealing with the question of boots, speaks as follows:-

" The profits made by firms engaged in the wholesale distribution of boots ha vo shown the same features of increase as arc found with manufacturers and retailers. .

:: In man:,~ instances the profits in the boot industry have exceeded 20 per cent., net on the capital employed; in some instances have exceeded 25 per cent., and in rare instances have exceeded 50 per cent.

" It was demonstrated that the prices of boots, though less affected than, e.g., those of clothing, are, nevertheless, unduly high, and that profits beyon~ a reasonable limit have been, and are bemg, secured.''

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: To what do you attribute that?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WOHKS: To the unfair combinations to which I have previously referred, to the operation of truste, combines, and monopolies, to the operation of honourable or dishonourable understandings.

Mr. SrzER: Have they anything to do with thP cost of leather?

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : Or wages?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: No. I am pointing out that those profits are net. Those are profits over and above the cost of leather and labour. The figures I am giving show th<Lt those net profits have been unduly high during the currency of the war. It is >tn outrageous thing to think that, with the sanction and connivance of the Federal Administration of tho Govern­ment who are going to the country with certain referendum proposals to deal with profitoering; of the Government which had plenary power at the time: the Vacuum Oil Company can make a profit of 72 per cent .

Mr. SIZER: vVhat are the Jlriccs that the Government got for their own leather?

Profiteerinr; [22 OCTOBJ<~R.] Prevention Bill. 1501

'I'he SECHET.\RY FOR P1JBL1C \YORKS: The hon. member eanuot side-track my argument like that. He cannot defiect me from the point I am endeavouring to emphasise. I am tolling the House that the Hughcs Administration allowed certain com­panies to make 72 per cent.; that is sufficient evidence that they did not do anything to deaJ with 11rofiteering. ~rhe facts and figures I have given, I think, are of an illuminating and startling nature. They show that ·profitcering is rampant and it has been ram­pant with the sanction and connivance of the prc-ent Hughes Administration.

:\lr. BEBBINGTOC! : And of the State Govern­ment, too.

The SECRETARY FOR FGBLIC WORKS: I have already reminded the hon. njombor that we had no power to deal with it. The Federal Administration issued proclamations covering fifty commodities, and destroyed our power in that way.

Mr. BEBBIXGTOX : vVhy did you engage in profiteerjng yourselves?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: The hon. member knows quite well that if any profits are made, they are for the people of the State. The;,' belong to the people, but these prolits I am referring to arc being ·taken from the poop! c, The people are fleeced to the extent of the profit, to which l am referring. A true analysi,, of the State trading conccr·ns~ ho\YOver) ·will sho-v: that the Govcrrnnent Hl'C net guilty of vrofitecring.

The SPEAKER: Order! 1 umst again renund hon. m cm bcrs of the treatment due to, a n1_embcr r~aking a. ::-c-cond reading speech wncn mtrodLlClllg a. B1Il .. I mnst appeal to h_pn. n1cn1bers to g1ve hnn _a fair hearing. lwery other hon. member \nil hayo his full time to reply to the Minister, and I hope hon. members will giYc hoed to my call.

The SECRETARY FOR P1JBLIC \\'OHKS: ~l~he effect of pro1-ite('ring is di~cdstrous. I he people of Queensland and of Aus­tralia genera 11:;" are subject daily to a heavy and unreasonable burden of 'taxa.tion ·-a .burd/',1.1 of taxa tio_n of an a.pp~111ng nature-. l1me and again \YO are rennnded of increased taxation in QuPEmsland; but in Queensland \YO have placed a riniT fence of

protPction a round the r-;;an \vi th a. [5 p.m.J small income. Thoro has boon

. no roductiou of the exemption of £200 m Queonslancl, although reductions havo taken place in the oth0r States. vYe ha,-e placed a ring fence of protection around tho ·worker who is least able, to bear the burden ?f tax~ti~n, ~1ut oqr increase-d taxation pales rnto 1I1Slg'n1ficance cornpared \Yith t.hjs tremendous burden of indirect taxation that is being lo,-iod on the people day after da:v, wr'e·k after week, and month after month :'·ith th<: sa notion of the anti-Labour party m Queensland and throughout Australia, too. The returned soldiers OU<>'ht to and reallv are cmnplaining against this unfair profitcol:­i~g. \Vo hear to-day about the proposal to ;;Ivo the returned men a gratuitv. Thev aro entitled to it, but I doubt very much whether they will got it.

Mr. SrzER: They will get it and you know they will get it. '

The SECRETARY FOR FGBLIC WORKS: It is placed on. a piece of string, and we know .that It IS only an e·lection bribe. (OppositiOn interruption.) We know that

l\Ir. Hughcs is parading tho Stato to-day in a digger's hat talking about the gratuity. That gratuity is only an okction cry.

l\Ir. GU:\'N: I ri>-2 to a point of order. Is the :Uinist<•r in order in bringing· in Mr. Hughes and the digger's hat into this debate?

The SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The SECRETAHY FOH PUBLIC WORKS: I will bring Mr. Hughes in without his hat. (Laughter.) I say he is making promises to-dav that he does not intend to fulf]l. '

The returned soldier to-day is suffering in a scandalous manner ; the returned men, their wi v-cs and children, are subject to he a ''.Y taxation daily in connection with c•vorything they eat, drink, and wear. If 1ve want to give thcn1 a gratuity, give it; but do son10thing more; give the soldiers protection. That is what they want.

J\h. CORSER: \Yhy didn't YOll bring in this Bill fiYe years a;;o? " ,

'l'he SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC WORKS: The facts and figures which are available in the Auditor-General's report will show that we han'· dmw a fair thing for the returned soldiers. \Ye know that the extent of the statesmanship of the Federal Adminis­tl'a ti on on behalf of the returned soldier is to shift one man out of his job and shift anothc·r one in; but a Labour Administra­tion, if in powPr, ·would enter into a compre· hemivc policy and carry on the government nf the countl'y cm statesmanliko line-,, such as in 1910 y\'lwn they e'tablishcd a Common­wealth Bank and introduced be- Common­wealth note iesue.

;,1r. CoRSER : Hughos brought those things in.

The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC WORKS· Tlwy "', rP clone in spite of }lr. Hughes. Pursuing the point of tllo effect of pro.Gteer­ing. l say that the returnl~d soldiers are eutit!ed to tho protection that this Bill gives them, (Opposition interruption.) As far as the returned soldiers are concerned, Queons­Iancl is the bc"t State. Then, again, the pritnary producers are suhject to trLJlcndons hardship and suffering on account of this prol[teeeing. The peimary producer to-day is he.ing unfail'1y baras.Jed, and the rnen who want to pro-duce wealth arc be,ing prevented horn so doing because of the profiteering that takes place. Representing, as I do, an agricu]tural con··)titumlCy, I have seen the difllcultios and hardships of the, primary pro­-ducers, and I know the representations that have been made to me in support of a rneasure of thjs nuturo. Everything that the primary producer wants-iron, wire, building material-is of such an exorbitant price that he cannot purchase it to-day. This Bill will protect the primar~; pro­ducer, as well as the returned soldier. I think the wc:tlth production of Queensland ,,-ill increase tremendously immediately this Bill becomes law, because tho primary pro­clucers will then be able to get their iron, wire. and building materials at reasonable prices, and will be ab!O< to move on with work that they have had to abstain from for years. Then, again, there arc hundreds who are waiting to go on the land imme­diately they can procure necessary material, such as iron and wire·, at a reasonable cost.

Mr. CORSER: And they cannot get an advance from the Government.

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1502 Profiteering [ASSEMBLY.] Prevention Bill.

The SECRET.\RY FOR FCBLIC WORKS: I would also like to refer to another effect of profitcering-the effect upon the industrial relations in the· community. To-day through­out the world there is industrial unro,t. It is affecting Australia, including Queensland, and one of the most prominent causes is profiteering. The worker gets an increase of wage•s, and immediately he does so up goes the cost of living, and not only to tho extent of the increase in wages, unfortunately, but to ,a much larger extent. The result is that the worker rnovts in a circle; ho be-comes pessimistic, morose, and dissatisfied, and violent n1easurcs are contornplatcd 'Yhich would never be contemplated if this Bill bc<::omes law and \\O protect the worker and see that his increase in wages is real and substantial, and not irnaginary only.

Mr. CoRSER: \Vhat about the State saw­mills?

The SECRETAR.Y FOR. FCBLIC WORKS: This Bill will deal with the profiteering that takes place in the timber industry. This Bill will have a comprehensive application; but, as I haYe already pointed out, any profits that the State sawmills are making are standing to the credit of the people of the State. How can tho people rob them­sd,·es? (Opposition laughter.)' As the Premier says. the hon. nlCmber is not capable of understanding the position.

Mr. BEDBIXGTOX: You are setting a very bad <'xample in your business transactions.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC \YORKS: The hon. men1bcr is n1aking a general state­ment not based upon the actual fact·, of the position at alL 1 have lwro evidence as to the iucrcase Df wages during the last fifteen years, and also in regard to the increased cost of living. I havP taken the figurc~s from .Mr. JVIurphy's work on ''.Prices and \V ages," and he points out that in thP last fifteen years the co,-t of living has risen 50,7 per cent, and that the rise in wages has only been 39.6 per cent. So that the balance against the worker in the last eleven years has been 11.1 per cent. After all the strugglco and sacrifices, after all the arbitra­tion, the worker finds himself 11.1 per cent. \varsc off than he v.;as fifteen years ago. Profltecring is the cause of that. Profltc"cring· is responsible for that decrease. and, conse­quently, until >V<' deal with profiteering we cannot restore industrial peace.

Mr. MoonE: In the figures he gi..-cs in that book he doe.:; not say so.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I gave the exact figures. The hon. member has only to refer to the figures of the Commonwealth Statistician in connection with the reduction in the purchasing Yalue of the sovereign to realise the truthfulness of the fig·ures that I have given. Arbitration in Queensland and in other parts of Australia is not as favourably received to-day as it might be. It is not as p011ular as it might be, not cnving to any inherent \veakness in arbitration itself, but duo to the fact that the iucreascs given by the Arbitration Court are absorbed by the profiteer; and not only the increase gi vcn by the court, but a good deal in addition. In England we find that the same condition of things prevails. We find that Sir Auckland Geddes emphasised the bancful effects of profiteering, which included the creation of social unrest, which was materially contributing to the disturb­ance and disorganisation of industrial life.

[Hon . .1. Larcombe.

Vlorkers wore discouraged from producing hoely bee a use they felt they were lining the pockch of employers. And he pointed out that the retail prices were excessive. The same conditions that apply in Queensland apply in England and in other parts of the world, and just as profiteering is world-wide; so is industrial unrest world-wide. That i& <:a use and effect; it is som.ething rnoro than a rnere coincidence. The prcvention-of­profiteering· section of the Bill gives the Gon'rnmcnt pow~r to (1) prevent sales in l'xcc,ss of fixed price"; (2) to pre..-ent corner­ing and hoarding of foodstuffs; (3) to seize con1n1odities in1propcrly vvithheld fron1 sale; (4) returns of commodities; (5) other neces­sary information; (6) proyision for penalty of breaches. Briefly, thaw arc the provisions of the pro6 tec-,ring sections of the Bill. I contend that the figqres I have given in mgard to protitecring prove overwhelmingly and conclusiYo.ly that profitcering does exist, and, further, that it exists with the full conniYance, of the Prime Niinister of Australia who is n1nsquerading as the "'d1gger's" friend.

Mr. MORGAX : \Vhcn are you going to give a concreto case?

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC WORKS: lt. \\'US laughable and arnusing in the 0xtrcme to listeu to the forced reception to the Prime :Ylinistcr yesterday at the Belle Vue lJ otcl. Ther0 were a few paid n1en there \Yhc threw up their hats. It was absolutely forced and not spontaneous at alL (Opposi­tion interruption.) The Commonwealth puLlic SPl'\'ant3 were given a holiday.

:Ylr. ELPHIXSTOXE: \Vhy don't you get On with the Bill'!

Mr. SrzER: You must have paid them.

The SECHET,'.,.RY FOR Pl"BLIC vVORKS · I want now to deal with the third part of the Bill dealing with trusts, cornbincs, and monopolies. The opPmtions of those trusts cm brace Queensland as well as the other States. and wherever v:c look \VC are con­fronted with the wolfish visage of monopoly. The Colonial Sugar Refining monopoly, the tobacco combine, the machinery trust, the shipping combine, and other combines to-day arc the real rulers of Australia; and they to-day arc· finding the funds for the anti­Labour pdrty.

Mr. Con~EE: Will you deal with the bhipping combine under this Bill?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Certainly, as far as their operations in Quecn,land are concerned. Does the hon. g·(~ntle-man think ou1· powers are lirnited?

Mr. Consm: I don't think :vou wilL

The SECUET AllY FOR P'C BLIC \YORKS: The hon. gentleman thinks wrong. Powers are specifically taken to deal with the shipping combine and deal \Yith all combines.

1\Ir. BEBBIXGTOX : Did vour Government make a compact with the 1neat trust?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is ridiculous. I will read a rough outline of the general powe·rs of the Bill­

" Every person commits an offence who-

(a) Monopolises or attempts to mono­polise, or combines or conspires with any other person to monopolise, wholly or partially, the demand or supply in Queensland or any part thereof of any commodity; or

(b) Combines or conspires with any

Profiteering [22 0CTOBEH.] Prevention Bill. 1503

other person to control, wholly or partially, the demand or supply or price in Queensland or any part thereof of any commodity;

if such monopoly or control is of such a nature as to be contrary to the public Intere'8t.''

There are other machinery clauses, and they provrde power to d~al with the shipping con1bine as well as other combinations in tho State. Penalties aro also provided to deal with those who are guilty of a breach of this section of the Bill. I think hon. members must be fully satisfied now that there is power to deal wrth the shipping combine under this section of the Bill. I want to say that it is necessary that we should pass thi"s Bill. because this Government have no faith in the referendum proposals submitted bv the Fed oral Government to the people of · Aus­tralia. If the Federal Government are sincere, they can doaJ with those combirws to-day under the vVar Precautions Act which is still in operation. '

Mr. SrzER: So can you.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The Fedora! Government have full free and unrestricted power to deal >vith {nonoyJolies and cmnbinos.

Mr. SrZEll: So have you.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Ir is essentially a Comm<lll wealth question. vVe can do som(>thing within the limited powers left to us under our Constitution but it is difficult to deal ,,"ith wch a questi~n in any one State. If the Federal Go,-ernnH nt were since eo they could d' 'd with tlw matter thoroughly. The J-tcdcral Governn1cnt are asking for power under the referendum proposals to enable them to deal with monopolies and comLincs, but thev could do it to-day if tlwy wislwd to. "

Mr. Srl\EH: You have got the power to do it, too.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC \YORKS: The hon. member for Nundah will be going out directly to ask the people to carry the referendum proposals of tho Federal Govet'n· ment, but I can tdl the people that 'the Federal Government ha.-o got the powor to deal ;vith combines to-day, but they will not use rt-

Mr. ConsEn: They have not, and that is why they arc askmg for power.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC WORKS: They have got full power during the cur­rency of the War Precautions Act, and they can rnake regulations to-1norrow to deal with 0vcry monopoly and combine in Australia. It is all camouflage to say that they want powPr. The:v are only trying to bulldor,o the people. If, thcrpfore, the Commonwealth Govemment will not exercise the power which they have got to-day to deal w·ith monopolies and combines, is it reasonable to suppose that th0y will cxmcise any power they may get under the referendum proposals.

Mr. CoRSER: They are r"sking for power to do something which vour Government will not do. "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I say that t,ho Commonwealth Government have got the power and they will not <)xer­cise it, and the hon. gentleman knows it quite well. If hon. members honestly believe that the Federal Governmflnt will exercise

any powers that they get in restricting monopolies and combines, then they will help the Government to pass this measure. I want to quote briefly from a sp0ech delivered by Mr. Thornpson in Rockhampton. Mr. 'I'bompson is not a Labour man. Ho was my last opponent for the Keppel election, and he is an ex-president of the Rockhamp­ton Chamber of Commerce. This is what Mr. Thompson says regarding the shipping combine--

" It was a question that affected the nH:-rchants very .gcriousl~, and required a good deal of attention. Only recently his firm had been asked to quote for 3.000 tons of coal, deli.-ered in quantities of 300 tons, for the North, and the pro­hibitive freights had thrown them out. They had a big combine against them in the shipping companies, and he thought if th~c,e prohibitive increases wert: going to continue the matter should he brought before the Interstate Com­rnis~ion.''

The Government realise that it is no good relying on the Federal Government to do anything. The matter was brought before the Interstate Commission, and they pre­sented two reports, but the GoYernmcnt refused to act on t.hosr' two reports. This Administration, immediately it gets the pow<;:r, will step in and seo that the com­mercial community of Rockhampton and Queensland genorally \Yill be protected as Mr. Thompson desires.

Mr. BEBBTNGTOX: I say that you will do wry littl0.

The SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC WORKS: The hon. gentleman knows that we will do a good d' al. I want to deal briefly with th<: ~ .. heat rlng and quot{'. a fE~w rernarks from the report of the Sout.h Australian Cornmis­s.jon which ~at on tho question of the wheat rnonopol.Y some tinJe ago. Inter alia the report says-

" Owing to tho wht;at ring the farmers of South Australia were robbed of 2d. per bushel on their wheat; and taking it t.hrc yield for that year, they came t.o conclusion, therefore, that the farrncrs of the Statf; lost a sum equiva.­lc'nt to £167,000."

T,hat is evidence of what is obtaining in the othee State"·· 'fhe sarrw thing is occurring irt' other phases of industry in Queensland.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: It will always occur.

Thn SECHETARY FOR FCBLIC WORKS: It will not occur if Governments are honest, If W() pass this rncac;uro t.ho primary pro­ducer will s0cure effective protection. I am surprised to hear an hon. gentleman like the hon. momb<er for Drayton, vvho represents a prin1ary producers' constitnencv, talking about that sort of thing always occurring. It would not occur if th.; Government were not willing to allow it to occur. The Mel­bourne "Age," of the 5th July, dealing with the questimr of monopolies and combines in A uBtrnlia, said-

" 'fho retail prices of practically all the nece&3arie'< of life in Australia are c•ontro!led by trusts and combines. Some of t.hese combines are openly organised trade associations, others are intangible understanding;;."

That is the evidence of the most powerful

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1504 ProfiLering [ ASSEi\IBL Y.] Pnvention Bill.

anti-Labour journal in Australia to-day, and it skcke that we arc in the position of having all these necessaries of life con­twlled by these combinations.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: You will not stop them. You have no d<·<irc to stop them.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: \V e have every desire to stop them, and we will do it if vve get the power. There are tvYo elas;:;es of people in the \vorld-one who do thing,;, and the other who say, "Why don't you do it some other way." \Ve are the class who do things, and hon. m~mbers opposite arc the class who ask why we do not do it some other way. I might quote further from Mr. H. L. Wilkinson's work. It contains evidence, not of glib generalities, but of concrete soundne;s. Mr. \Vilkinson says-

" In Australia, whilst the trust move­ment (in its broadest sense) has evi­denced itself for years, it is only since about 1900 that monopolistic trading organicsations lhavo tak'!n considerable part in the industrial de\·elopmont of the country."

That is an admission that combinations are in existence. Then he goes on-

" It is only since this year t.hat com­panies and associations have deliberately rQstrainod trade, and combinations have shown sufficient stability to control prices \Yith any degree of steadiness."

According to the evidence of \Vilkinson, who is a brilliant aut·hority, and who spent years of his life in dealing with this work, these combinations are actually in operation and are controlling pric<es to the detriment of the community. I want to give this evidence in cumulative form because, while hon. mem­bers opposite aud hon. members on this side know all about it, it is just as well to place it in the columns of " Hansard." Defiling with th<; sngar monopoly of Australia, Mr. \:Vilkinson says-

,; T:tu~ AcS'l'H.ALL\X SUG"R I\Io::-.roPOLY.

"By \va.tering stock, not di closing profit 9., \Yrjting do\'\Tn assots, really no inforrnation is Jnado a-; nilablo a;::; to tho actual profits n1ude tho cornpan:JF; and the comparison of market price of the company'~ undel'ta.king ~Nith the dcolared assets shows the farce its pub­li,hed lntlanco-shccts are to give any idea of its financial position.

"In dealing \\cjth reserves that have hc<~n u-,~d for watering the eo1npany 1s stock, the Melbourne 'Age,' 28th October, 1910, says in regard to the shareholders of thn conlpany-

During the la "t three years these lncky inve: . ...;tors lHtYe had apportion-Pd amougst them £450,000 of profits over and aboYc their regular dividend at th,, rate of 10 per cont. per annun1. This extra distribution took the form of .,hams paid up to £20 each, but worth in the market more than double that sum. so that thoso participating actually benefited by something like £900,000 from these bonus additions to their capital. Clea,r]v the undivided profits arc becoming embarrassing. . .

Ho further says-" It will be seen from the foregoing

that the growing of sugar-cane in Aus­tralia provides a living, but little more,

[Hon. J. Larcombe.

to the grovvers and their employees, whilst, on the other hand, the Refining Con1pany is Jnaking huge profits."

That "·as an f'xposure of the Colonial Sugar RPfining Con1pany, not by a.ny party poli~ tician, but by the authority I referred to. lie says that the growers and "\vorkers are rcceiyi~ng a bare liYing wage, while this 1nonopol~, is hoarding up huge profits annualh. If ,wyone wishes to read of the operations of that cmnpan:v they have only to rdcr to the "wild cat" column of the SvdHev " Dull et in " but I have taken the c;idcn'ce from Mr.' \Vilkinson's book because he summarises the position clearly and con­cisEly. Dealing with thQ tobacco combine Mr. vVilkinson says-

" Summarising the position of the tobacco industry and tra.de in _Australia, it may be stated that-

Scycn-eighths to nine-tenths of the "\ustralian trade is in the hands of a. 'trust' acting through subsidiary com­panies in Australia, and allied with or controlled by the world-wide British­An10rican truE!t.

The ' trust' fixes the prices to be paid to the grower of the tobacco leaf in Australia, and decides the prices to be chargL'cl to the consumer.

The 'tru::-;t' is 1naking huge but unascertainable profits, and has fixed the prieD and quality of tobacco, etc .. at stanLlards to giyo jt a n1axin1um of profit."

Dealing with the interstate shipping com­bine, 1\Ir. \Vi1kinson says in a general ::iUD1D1ary-

'; rrhe effect of the agTPClnent the yarious corr1panies con._tjtuting Uurnrnonwc Jth Stcarnship Ov.rncrs' F0dr~ ration ha~ becn-

Th·lt there 1~~ no comp~tJtion bet1;v0cn the different line"· running botwocn tho ::::aau: ports for an~v tr:ndcrs that n1ay !J , 11lcd for any special service.

It is •~ lwa YS a rnattPr of indifference cnnong~t the. stcan1ship cnYl?-ers by what st'a1::-1Vr c:1.rgo js forwarded.

That the markf't price of the shares in thn jllt(~r,)tate stca1n~hip con1.panics ha" dunblc•d and trebled in recent

notvvithstanding considerable of stock, and an'r incrca.se in

\Yorking cod3 ljttle affect these prices. That the dividends of from 10 per

cent. to 15 per cout. have been con­sistently paid, ev-en though the .s~ock has boon vmtcrcd. Largo add1t10ns haYc boon made to the fled without corrt>sponding incrca:<'s in capital.

That the excessively high freights have greatly mitigated a.gainst develop­ment of interstate trade, and have minimised the advantagDs of interstate free tJ:adc, and have facilit~ted, the formatJOn of trusts and combmos.

That is the oninion of Mr. vVilkinson Oi1 tho operations of~thc shipping trust in Australia. ,Just one more quotation-dealing with the meat trust. The Melbourne " Age," writing in January, 1911, said-

" The An1cricnn international moat tru"t has carried it.s co\~ert schemes of world conquests so far towa,rds achieve­ment during the last. year that there a_re no longer a.ny sceptws left to doubt 1ts

Profiteerinu [::2 OcTOBER.] Prec:·:~tion Bill. 1505

~llt\'ntion. Thi:-> Hl'Jn~tr{)US c!pyelupt·d wirh he'xil­

,inc<• 1900. \\',, lmYe it that tht'ro <trt'

lllOHlPJJt iu _1_\_u::.-tr·din, of tlu: _;,_\Hlcrican ),~('at

" ),fE.\T Tn-:._-~:n.

'· .\ I'HE::'.IIEH1S l'RO:\JJSE.

"Sturtling llc · clatiotl.''· (N.Z.), Friday.-l-teplying­in tbo the Pri Jl~P

'· Tho Pron1-itr hut 1'(-'lnarknd ':-~.a·~ go.ing 011 in

COUlltl'\'

revc1atioE~ ii1 fm · \Yceks regard-

rnentioncd no dntaib, he knc\V exactly ·what

country.''

'11hat i::) an indication of what is Nmv Zealand. }Idbourlll' n;alisc~ \rhat 1s on Jn

1\lclbonnH~ ; · AgC'" 1·-.., ;_1 power-jonrnat i1 dirceL public

to the ·· r'OIHbinat1onf'. ::\h·. fmnous .:\HlCTican puh1icisL i-r1

\YOrk on tho American beef as follov.·s :--

.. The bcf'f tn1·,_t. ftxt·s for ]t.:s O\Yll

the' t;u dll'l' o£ thl' \n_·~t nnd ho~~ at:d tht'

thP ' ea shall Jt fi '(('S prH·t~

;;;hall rcc, ·i ,- e t111.:~ JabOLll'Pl'

for hi::; bn_·ak-

bj o·h frci o·ht:3 t ~~~ efieet of tlH1

rnonopoly ln \Yriting don·n thci1· and faking their balance-cheat, while

extortionate profits at the same time, \Yorkcr:s anrl tht.' are gc·tting

liYing wage. think I have 5hcnvn that the priet>-fixing provisions are fnir. that price-fixing. as car6c'd 011 to-day ,,utsido G-ov('rn1ncntaJ control is injurious, and that all we desire is to transfer the power to the State.

I have shown also that profitecring is rampant in ,Queensland, that its effect, are injnrious and pernicious, and that the legis­lation W<J are introducing will control it if it cannot thoroughly destroy it. I have shown that trusts and combines operate in Queensland as in other parts of Austnt!ia, that they work octopus-like, controlling

1919-4 z

indu.c...trif:::; aud C()[J:-uJnf·1' n bo.

thu wdl

affecting the rea.ding so1ne tirne

of Sir Waltcr

;, Bre, the ro t}1Cl'P

:;e\'C I' to

1uy (J'\Yn,

so dead :Ja

1ny Hati·;o ]and.:'

\V ish

lhu

1;1 our-O"\Yn, om· objt•ct of thit;

tu Jl~akt: Quec11 1aiH1 "Our O\\ u, Jnud ""--to l'C':ltrict Ol1C(; and ±ol'

tlJP (;]JPnttlons of to mak-f~ th-at (I-{( a r, hear !)

lh)n. \\;"". li. the l?crth (\)H£C'J'CltCt' Slt,Y ·~ our n:1rivc }?nd, lJ('gotiatimL

ThP

not our owu, yury F.'llH:h -it is peace by

~\~r. Hr:ulHSG:.._,)X: Jnst fL"' lllU~oh n:-- the F(•-rlcl :Jl COY''l'H!llt'Jlt.

Tlw Fllw \Yhicb, l~l\Y 1 for

nwtl:1·i~d pru~iJl'l'ity. rend j)rO!""!'l'C~S of t':c~

\Yhich has Federal

0PP0Sl'J'JO~ =\ILJISEUS: Oh~ Oh! and J1s­~' l' ll t.

\YOIU('S: to cc:n­Ll the

not dand for importing

tL<1ll for .. :\u~tral-i,a.

-:\.[1'. Br:H1?1;\GTO:\': \\y on1~.. ·woll1s, \. ords, hut HO cffPrt.

~lr. lh;m~I~r;TOX: Oh, ~-es! ~You lDst the interest thtJt we put down fo:r butter.

JI e ai·rd as soon .as

gPt into roJnmcncT~ price of a.ho. L{'t us sf:C' w h

the Feeler a I GoY0rnmcnt did to the rabbiters in \ustralia. They made £250,000 out of rabbit skins. and retained every penny-put it into eonsoliclatccl revenue. The.? robbed the rabbiter; and the hon. gentleman talks about robbing the primary producer. (Opposition .laughter.)

}lr. BEBBINGTOK: In any cusP, they gave the dairyman his rights, which you did not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I am speaking of the rabbite:·; and the

Hon. J. Larcombe.]

1506 Projiteering [ASSEMBLY] Prevention Bill.

hon. gentleman knows they were wronged to the extent of £250,000, and he kno\>·s there was not a word of protest raised by hen. gentlemen opposite.

I would now like to say a few \Yords npon the question of the relation of wages to !he high cost of living. It has been said, by n1oans of interjection. that incrt~ased vvag;e~ are largely responsible fm· the high cost of living· m Queensland and other parts of Australia.

JV!r. BEBBIKGTON: Partly, it mu,t be.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: It has been m·er-estimated. The rcla:ion that wages has with regard to increased prices is comparatively small. 'Ne find aceording· to cvidcnco from compete11t tribunals and authorities, that where wag,)S have been increased in other parts u [ the world prices are lower.

Mr. MORGAN: Deal with the Austra1i<tn position.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: I want to deal with the arguments that h.>Ye been adduced in an endeavour to show that profiteering· is not rnponsible for the i1igh cost of living, but that the workers increoscd wages are the cause. I want to dissipate lint idea bv quoting from anti-Labour sources, showing that that is not so.

Mr. BEBBINGTOC\: ·whore is the profi\.'<lring in butter, cheese, and flour?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is only a stalking horse to co.-er up tllc tracks of the great profiteer comi.JinacioEs in Australia-the profiteer pirates, who are n•b­bing the people day by day, week b.v >Yeek, month bv month. I should like io r;m.to f~om the '' 1:T.orning Bulletin "-an anti­Labour paper. In the io·uo of .Monduy, lDdt July, 1916, the leader-writer sayH, n•gardi11g this question----

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. :nom­her has exhausted his time allowed umler the Standing Orders.

Mr. BUTLER (Loekycr) : I hog to c .. ovc-­

" That the ~1inister for Prtblic IV·,rks bo granted an extension of time to enable him to finish his speech."

QuEstion put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I appreciate the courtesy and indulgence cf the I-Iouso. I just w1-nt to r0fcr to bYO ,<W three anti-LalJOur authorjtics on the quc'3t~on of the relation of wages to increased ;1ric0f..

Mr. MoRG\N: vVc want those concreto rases.

JY.T r. BEBBIKGTON : YOU ought to be proud of the attention you are getting.

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order !

The, SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: T get interjection" as well as .atter1tlvn, }\fr. Speaker.

Th0 SPEAKER: Order' I ,]t;, il sec that the hon. member shall have attrnt:on.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Let me just briefly run over tlwt chort quotation from the "Morning Bulle~in.•· It is as follows :--

"Good wages a.ro not incontpatl.nle with Jovv cost of production. Tht're is no country in the world where wuges are

[Hon. J. Larcombe.

higher than in tho United State,, yet­that countr.v not only holds its own markets securely against all cheap lal,our eh;;t~where. but it exports its luanufactut'PS freeh- and compotes succnsfully in ,,yrry foreign market."

That i·- the tribute and testimony of aE anti­Labour paper.

Mr. SrzER: It is only ono man's opinion.

The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC WORKS:_ I ''Till give rnore than ono rnan's OlJinioi~. I an1 quoting it because it is an anti-LatJour paper. If I gave « quotation frorn the "Dai1v Standard." hon. n1oml>CI'S opposite wouh( not listen to me, they would ridicule it. I ha...-e not referred to one Labour authority so far.

Mr. SrzER: The mere fact that it "' :m anti-Lahour paper doos not pr,:e the ear; tha man who wrote it might be a Labour 1n.an.

The SECRET.\.RY FOR PUBLIC,;vmn<;s: l\'o · the loader-writer of the Mornmg Bulletin" is not a- Labour man, his articles arc not Labour, and he would be very glad if he could find an excnsc to blame the workers for the increased cost of living.

2\Ir. RonERTS: Is that not contributed by l'dr. Bedford?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I >tm surprised at the simplicity of the hon. gcnth•man. It is contributed by Mr. Du~n. The hmt. gentleman is confusing " The D~ulX Record" with the " iYiornmg_ Bulletm. The " Morning Bulletin" is edrted by Mr. Dunn and he is not a Labour man. He refer; to the fact-it is not only his own opinion-that in America, whore wagrs are high they are able to hold then- own wrth expo'rts and outsell oth~r countries in the worlrl where wao-es are hrgher. I would hke to gi ...-e anothcrb quotation from an article written bv lYir. Tregcar, who, for many years, \Yas Secretary for Labour in Now Zealand. He sajs-

" Of coursP the rise in wages given by the Arbitrati~n Court to certain classes of ,,_-m·kers is ac·sertcd b,- some to be the reason for the increased cost of articles and seryices, but this argument runs in a vicious circle. For it is the increased cost of living which has caused the con­cE-3sion of higher 1vagcs."

According to 2\Ir. Tregcar, hem. members opposite put the cart beforo the horse. It is not the increased wages that lead to inc.Teasccl prices, but increased prices lea.d to increased wages. That is opinion No. 2, cxpn•ssed by a non-Labour authority. Opinion No. 3 is expressed by Mr. T. R. Ba.vin, who is at the present ti1ne a rncmb€r of the Now South \Vales Legislature. Need­less to say, he is not a La,bour man. He is a barrister of high standing. .A few years ngo he 'vas appointed as conunissior:er to inquire into the question of the rolatwn of ·wages to th0 incl'C'asecl cost of living, and he wrote as follows :-

" Oftpn moreover the domrtnd for increasdd' wrges ha:-; 'arisen out of a pre­ceding rise in prices.

" Investigation recently made in othet· countries sugg-ests that increases in wagns have far less to do with increases in price than is commonly supposod. 'The report of the United States Senate

Profiteering P1·evention Bill. [22 OcTOBER.] Stock Foods Bill. 1507

Committee, which was appointed ·in 1910 to ronsidcr 'vagcs and prices of colnmodi­tics, found that 'labour unions have 01ot been apparently a serious factor in con­tributing towards advancing prices.'

" In support of this conclusion the Com­mittee points out that the greatest increase in prices has taken place in those groups where labour cost is not the controlling factor in prices, and where advauces in wages have been least. The Now Zealand Commission on the cost of living also gave some consideration to this matter. Its report gives actu"'l instances of commodities in the produc­tion of which labour has increased, while prices during the same period hav-e fbJlen considerably. The higher wages have been provided for either by a restriction of the employers' profits· or by the use of more economical methods of production.

" It is also to be remembered that an increase in the rate of wages cL-,es not nee·3ssarily involvo a real incr.~nse in the cost of production, for the following reasons:-

1. Then' can be no doubt as to the tendency of higher wages to stimulate the use of labour-saving m"'chinery and the adoption of the most economical means of production. In this way, under real competitive conditions, the ultimate effect of an increase in wages may be a reduction in price.

2. _A_nv improve1nent in the condi­tions of labour, whether by the abolition of sweating, the prohibition of unduly long hours, or in1provement in sanitarv conditions, has a tendency to raise the efficicmcv of the individual work­man. From' this point of view, a rise in wages, while it would increase the actual cost, would cause no relative increase in the cost of production."

I am. very pleased to ha vc the opportunity of bemg able to place on record this informa­tion. The opinions expressed by Mr. Bavin are, to my mind, of particular value. He was especially appointed to investigate and inquire into this question. Ho took evidence of a verv wide and voluminous nature and came to" the conclusion that the incre~se in vvagus as a factor j n jncroased prices has been over-estimated. He points out that in other countries in the world and also in ::\'cw Ze.tland, where increased wages have been highest, frequently prices have been lowest. The incr(>asc in wag<es is frequently lowe.lt whore pnc<"l arc highbt. The position is occaswnall:· rovcrscly stated. Vve know that s?n1e time ago in ~ow South \Vales pormis­swn was granted to mcrease the price of coal. It was increased, and as the result it was :tatcd it was because the workers got an 1ncn~a3c 111 \Ya.gPs; but o..-cr a n1iJlion pounds in prices over and above the increased wages "ere taken by the coalowners and the pro­ducflrs and sellers of ~ ew South Wales from the pockets of the consum,ers, showing how absurd it is. io contend that increased wages are: rc,pom1hle for mcreased prices. It is qmto a.pparent that to-day we are con­fronted with a problem of great importance and urgencY. Here in Australia we have n. great opportunity-with the grandest countrv in the world, wide in area, great in extent rich in soil, ;;nd in all its diversity, we hav~ an opportumt:c- to bmld up a great self­supporting State and country. '\Ve can, if

we c'ffectivcly restrict the great combina­tions. deal with the question of wealth­distribution in a way never dealt with by any country on the face of the earth. We can, by restricting their operations, see that the improvement of machinery and the increased wealth production leads to better conditions, shorter hours, better wages, and an all-round advancement in the conditions of the people of Queensland, intellectually, socially, morally, and in e;·ery other respect.

HoxouRABLE MEMBERS: Hear, he·ad

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed.

The resumption of the debate was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

STOCK FOODS BILL.

C011MITTEE. (Jir. Smith, Mackay, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 4, both incluBivc, put and passed.

Clause 5-" Responsibility of seller as to composition"-

Mr. TAYLOR (TVindsor): I would suggest to the Minister the desirableness of omitting the word " advertisement " in line 55, page 4. Provision is made that the labele attached to pa0kagcs of foods have to give all the con­etitucnts, which have also to appear upon the in voice and circulars in reference to the food. If all the constituents had to be stated in any ach·crtisemont of any food, it would mean quite a considera.ble added expense. and I fail to sec that any good would come from it. The constituent parts of some food might perhaps number ten or tweh·e, and if the manufacturer or seller hae to advertise the whole of those things in an ordinary nows­!Hi[l<'r advNtiscment, I certainly think it is uuneccssarily adding to the selling price. of the product. The whole of the protcctwn whiclo the Minister wishes to give to purchasers is provided for by the giving of the constituent parts on the invoice and the label.

At ten minutes to 6 o'clock p.m., The CHAIR1IAX OF COM1IlTTEES (l'v1r. Bm·tram,

Jlarcc) took the chair.

1'111'. :\fORGAN: The hon. member for \Vinclsor has placed the matter before the ?vLinistcr in a coul'toous rnanner, and is dcsrl'Ying of a reply.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I cannot quite foiiow the hon. member who 'uggcsts this amendment. He appears to indicate that the obligation to advertise is placed on the vendor. That is not so. The Bill does not compel the retailer to advertise. It savs-

- " Any person who sells or agrees to deliver any stock foocl-

(c) which does not consist solely of the rnatcria]s specified in any invoice, circular, or advertisement relating thereto;

shall be guilty of an offcnc'l against this Act."

The obligation to advertise is not placed on the seller so far as I interpret this cluuBc, but I think that that was the contention of the hon. member.

Hon. W. l<r. Gillies.J

1303 [ASSE~1BLY.] Stxk Fo9rh Bill.

nd\'{'l'tic..n_ X~r. ~TOOHE: The rn,t;_l rnu~t- advertise

tht>Hl.

'L\ YLO ll. : T (JY 1Ct> HHJrl' that it

nut

(>f a fal.o.,P {1C2crip_t

-;.>·i11 F"illlldy refrain from

Tlw ;-.!.rTHl-"L\R'c. ron

rH·f'd not -do that nnle~-

Iillxturt Ql1YCTti -:i_ng·.

~\C: Hl. TI.Tl"HE. r1 1hc.:y tl10y like.

f..lr. tlr • t n;nn 1i~Ull0,

TAYLOH: I 1H't'd 110(­

stock food

awa;·c of the fact that a

. RREXX.\X: That i~ sufiicif>nt. Ile 1nust 1n a samph_• before he S(~l1s it.

l\h. TA YLOJ{: Tlwu h'' cnuld ad.-crtise it L>y tlw llanH) it i~ kncnvn by'?

Mr. C<l)f ?,) 70

:iGH1C'T~LTT'RE: Yes, but ccrtrr]n things it n1uJt

Yon can 'ell state that it milk it 1nu~t

)JO''·d·"·ed milk.

TA '\rLOil: I do not sell Tay1or's calf

:VIr. F. A. Coonu: did not say you did.

H1H1 ncgati, ed,, and clau,'3o

Hl C![~n:::c 6 pnt and p:ts.o,ed.

1nust

lll

he to thr

what ho has to t0 tho publie in

to sell he mu't tha.t advcrtisernent. I think it

rcasonab1o provision, because a of stock food is bought by

people t11c rountr_v on advertisernents. :Mr. BEBBJ};GTOY: It should be applied to

everything.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I think it should. No advertiser should be a1lmvcd to dPcoivo the public. If he adver­tise" that his stock food contains certain thing·s--it is not necessary for him to do that first of all~this clause will make him liable if the .(ioods are not in accordance with the advertisement. I regret I cannot accept the amendment.

[Mr. Taylor.

CLtu~·.c 7-·• Prori,-;ions n.~· to invoices, r_t.r:.''-

.?vT l'.

i nvo1cc, ~i r~nl:~ r, or to HOCK :tuod matr~rials of

consi:-.,ts. ''

arc vou fot~HL"

for Brf'nHH' sugge~t::s-unlcss parts? He says under tlH' name,

says ibnt you cannot do tbat.

(Sittili(J suspendnl from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.)

Mr. TA YLOR (conlinuinr") : I wieh to moYo tho insertion of the \YOr·d ;, or" aftc~r the word .. in \·oicc" on line 13. If tl1 at HinCIHl­

rnent is carried I intend to moYc thP dclf'tion on tlw samo line of the >Yords "or advertise-nwnt."

The SECHETARY FOH AGRICVLTURE: I can see \vhat tho llon. 1nernber de:3ircs, and if he will give some g·ood rutson for the deletion of the wo"ds "or advertisement" I am prepared to ecnsidcr the matter. During the tea adjournmellt I ascertained th<1t the Victorian Act is in operation. It was stated

Stxk Foods Bill. [22 0CT0BJC]{. J Stock Foods Bill. 1:109

to I. fil•d

Act is not H dead dau-' 7 of dw Biil that of clalNo 7 in tlH• .·~cct.

that 1c',dYCTtiscmcnt~?> for be Ycrv lcnu:tll\~ if

I ' 0;11d ] ikc 'to "·ith

Jlrotc•cl ion llC'<:;( 110~ h'1lll]ll'l' tlH'

fonn, hut IYi!l giYe ;_1 r",·rinin ti1r- Bill' would o;w1·at"

in t l~;_l_ t if dtu word:::: \\'('~"' not 'd <t llllllliH'r of

·would he \Yithdra wu, ~ls so1nc of tiH "(_; do not carry a gTcnt nmount of profit.

fitock fit in forth 1nix('d

l3EE?·:X.\i\: T think thn diffieultv hP n·ot C'\~Pl' by aftr'r t1te '\\~Or~{ " on lin~: 1( "otl!t:r tll'.lH

a . ...: a i"r<Jde nntnc." Th~tt \~.~onld clame 3 of tlw Biil. ;;·hich s<•t,;

liOii•salo seller of

eh a 11 SPnd to sample o: C<Jch

:Vir. :VIORG.\X: moyed by th•• l10n.

Tlw nh tuber for nut n!n···t the ca~e. T}wre i~ no to adYcrti o JTiorf~ than the 11aml' of focd, hnt under the clau~c tL"' it ~taud:-; the tuanufne­turcr of any stoek foocl wou1c1 bt~ "-:on1pC'1lcd. to >J-rh-crtis<' cYnything that t.hat stock foocl contains. If <1 pcrso11 ndycrtjsc,s "Ta:dor's calf food £10 per ton," that is all that is 11cccs~ar.v; if tho ndYC'l'tiscmcnt. fHl\TS that it contn.ins c0rtain ingTedjrmt~, th~n t•he manufacturer should cert-ainly sco that the

etoclc £cod nJycr­~H :::C\lt

Amcndn1cnt. (J[r. Dg-rc0d to.

l\h. TAYLOR: I her: to mc,"v,. tho om1ssion of tlH~ ,,_-{Jl'd" ,; c.;r nd \·crtlsC'mPut" on ltne 13.

~\nH)ndnH)llt ~1gr0rcl to. a.melldnH'llh; on 1ir~e . .;; 19, 20,

ot11itting the w0rd~ ,. or advertise­ment" in t-Jch c .1~ \Yen: agrC'C{{ to.

Clause 7, a.~ arncnt.::1.ed, put and pat.,~cJ.

On cla,uso 8~" lla,l}, slra!c, unrl c!t~tff''­

The SEClCETAH.Y FOR :\GRICULTUIU:o: I beg to rr1oYc the mnis;:;ion of lines 42 to 58

llon. W. Jr. Gdlies.]

1510 Stock Focds Bill. [ASSK\IBLY.] Stock Fooas fhii.

with a view of imertiug the following in their stead :-

" (1.) l:pon the sale of-(a.) I-Ia.y which consists ol several

kinds of hay ; (b) Hay chaff which is made from

several kinds of hay; (c) Strav: which consists of several

kinds of stravr;

(d) Straw chaff which is made from several kinds of straw;

(e) Mixed chaff which is a mixture of hav chaff and stra.w chaff in anv propoi·tion and is made from severa'l kinds of hay and straw :

(f) Compressed fodder which is made from several kinds of stock food;

the im·oico shall in each case specify each component of the mixed stock food wld.

"(2.) l:pon the salB of-(u) J\!Iixod chaff which is a. mixture

of hay cha.ff and straw chaff in any pro· portion, each package shail be dis­tinctly marked in the pn·scribe·d form \vith the lettPrs ·M. S.'

(b) Straw chaff. each package shall be distinctly marked in the; prescribed form \vith the letters 'S.C.'"

The subclause which I propose is to mmove what appeMs t.o me a rather drastic pro­vision in the originrtl Bill dealing 'vith hay, straw, and chaff.

Mr. ::IIORGAK: While members of the Opposition were opposed to the clause as it originally stood, I think the Minister is now going too far in the opposite direction, because he is going to take away from the Bill the protBction which was giYen to the buyer. The Mlni8ter is erring in anoth{~r direction. In the original Bill it was too stringent, bc.Jause it allowed no mixe-d chaff to be sold. Members of the Opposition did not object to a mixture of lucerne cha.ff and wheaten straw, proYided that it was labelled as such, but the :!Ylinister's amendment would allow a mixture of whraten chaff and wheaten straw, or a mixturr of oaten chaff an-d oa.ton straw. If oaten straw and chaff were mixed together, or wheaten straw and chaff, it would be difficult to tell the difference. The amendment is pbying into the hands of the unscrupulous trader to mix more straw tha.n cha.ff, and there is no protection to thB buyer at all, because he will not know how much straw is mixed. The Minister is taking away one of the most important features of the Bill \Yhich protected the consumer against the unscrupulous man, and his amendment will allow thB unscrupulous man to mix a. considerable quantity of straw with the ha.y. The Minister. !'S an experienced man, knows perfectly well that it is necessary to mix a. certain quantity of wheaten chaff with lucerne, or a certain quantity of oaten chaff with lucerne, but there is no nc;cessity to allow wheaten straw to be mixed with wheaten hay. The amendment would allow an unscrupulous individual to take some old straw from his farm and mix it with new hay and spll it for £14 or £15 a ton.

The SECilETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Are you speaking for your party?

[Hon. W. N. Gitlies.

2\Ir. JUORGA;'\;: I am not speaking per­sonallY at all. I do not cpeak porsonally \vlwn "I arn discu~·;ing these n1casul'{~s.

The SEC!\ETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: \Vhat I want to know is~is that the genera.) opinion of your party?

}\Jr. ::VIORGAN: So far as I am concerned I am speaking for myself. Members on this side generally speak for thernseh·es. The i\1inister is going too far with h1s amend­Inent. \Ye agree \vith the an1cndnwnt Cir­culated bv tlw hon. member for Cunningharn, Mr. Gravson, to be inserted after line 43 of thi··· clause, and reading as follows:-

" ProYidcd that it shall be lawful to sell chaff made from a mixture of lucerne hay and stra\V; but iu such case such mixture shall be sold under the name of ' Mixed Lucerne and Straw Chaff,' and the invoice shall aloo state that name, and every package containin!l' such chaff •hall be distinctlv marked m t.he pre­~crib' d form with the letters ':VI.L.S.' "

That m~cts the objection "·hich we had agaimt the original Bill on the second reading.

JVfr. \Y. CooPER: How can You toll lucerne straw fron1 lucerne hay?

Mr. l\IORGAN: I never heard of lucerne straw.

l\Ir. \Y. CooPER: What about when it is thras.hed '!

Mr. MORGAJ\;: It i& not lucerne straw. It is not straw at all.

Mr. W. COOPER: What do you call it?

Mr. MORGAN: It is not straw at all. ·when lucerne is mixod you can tell the difference bv ·the < Cllour. Ordinary lucerne hav is not ·allowed to go into seed, but wheaten hav and oaten hav both go partly to seed. I think the Ministci~ is going too far.

The SECRET.\RY FOR AGRICuLTURE : Read th~ definition o{ " stra,v" in clause 2.

Mr. MORGAN: It will be fatal to the Bill if we accept the Minister's amendn_>en~. The point I ''ant to make IS that It IS wrong to allow wheaten hay and wheaten straw to be cut up and sold as a mixture.

If you an; going to pass the [7.30 p.rn.] amendment as proposed by the

Minister, you might as well do away with the Bill altogether, because you are taking a way from the consumer pro­tection originally intended by the Govern­ment. The argument used by the hon.\ member for Normanby, and others, was ~he protection of the person who was . buymg chaff and he certamlv needs protectiOn. Th~ SECRE'rARY FOil "~GRICULTt:RE: He needs

protection, but the farmer should not be embarrassed at the same time.

Mr. MORGAN: It is not only the farmer; it applies to the produce agent. He may buy a consignment of chaff _and straw,, ":nd there is nothing to prevent hrm from mixmg it, if you place this amendment of yours m the Bill. Is it right that the consumer should have sold to h!m mixed straw and hay wh"n you cannot distinguish how much oi either would be in the mixture?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The buyer knows what he is getting.

Stock Foods Bill. [22 OCTOBER.] Stock _Foods Bill. 1511

Mr. MORGAX: He mav. But the hon. rnernber for Norman by ga ~Tf:'- an illutJ.tration where, when a certain consignment which had been sold got to its destination it was found to be a mixture not worth the money.

Mr. PETERSON: Not true to sample.

Mr. MORGAN: 1\ot true to sample.

The SECRETARY FOR AGIUCC:LTTTRB: That could ha Ye been returned to the seller.

Mr. MORGAX: Th11t, I understand, was a mrxture of wheat0.n hay and straw. If you mix hay and oaten straw you cannot tell hmY much straw has been n\ixed with the hay, anJ the sumc thing applies to wheaten straw.

Mr. TA YLOR: I do not agree with the nm1arks of the hon. member for 1\iurillrt.

Hm-101!TlABLii I\1Ell1BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. TAYLOR: Th0. amendments proposed by the Mrmster arc businesslike and intelli­gible. and although the hon. member said there \vas no 11rotectlon for the man who buys that mixture, there is; because this mixed chaff has to b<: definitely and pro­perly DHtrkcd as a n1ixtnro of ha.,-,~ and Hlraw. 'l'ho letters "1\LS." have cto be put on evPry package, and there is the pro· tyction. Th,, . hon. _member who has just fimshed sp~akmg sard there was no neces­sity to put straw with h.tv. If he saw the condition of, I suppose, SO per cent. or 60 per cent. of the wheaten hay chaff coming from the_ Downs at present, he might change lns oprmon, as quite a number of farmers arP cutting t!H-=-ir v.-heat for chaff. instead of letting it mature for grain, and in the C,')UT" c of thYc~ er foLJT day(:) 60 per cent. of t11at chaff bcgms to heat, and it is necessary to put straw. or some other mixture. with 1t to prevent deterioration. To ask the farmer t~ · weig.h_ in . quantities of hay and ::.tntw while f'utting 1t 1s. aslnng hlm to do what is absolute!:;- impossible. I hope the v.mendmont will be carried.

Mr. BRENNAN: I am very much impres6ed with the argument of the hon. member for Muril_la. I thir1k if you put a handful of hay . mto straw yon will find cvr-dence of hay m that bag. This is going to be an open door for fraud. The produce agent can go and buy .a stock of straw of 20 or 30 tons, put 1 ton of hay into it and I defy the Agricultural Department, o{· any other department, to 6<:Cure a conviction. I think it is most important that hav and straw should not be allowe·d to be i-'uixed. That is where the fraud comes in in time of :Jrought. I think the Minister should give Jt very se .. :ious consideration.

Mr. CORSER: Though there is a lot in the contention of the hon. mcm~Jer 'for M;uilla, I think there is no danger, in that 1mxed wheaten chaff is not known to any groat extent on our n1arket, except in time of drought: If i~ is mixed chaff. the person kno,•,·s he IS buymg mixed chaff, and them rnaj" bo 20 per cent. straw and 5 per cont. or ~0 pN cent. hay. There is a danger, but now rt IS gomg to be safeguarded has not been suggested. If vou are going to prevent mixing at all, you arc going to cause hard­ship to all concerned in time of drought. For the most part, ,,-heaten straw is the season's hay-vNy probably this season's­mix0d with straw, and it comes into use in time of drought. In this State oats are not grown to any great extent for grain, and

we won't con1e ag<~ inst any serious trouble­! lwrc. But if mixing is prohibited it will came trouble to the farmer and a terrible (karth in the amount of stuff that comes into the market at the time we want it most. "Whilst there is a lot in the contention of the hon. membe!" for Murilla, I do not see that it is ]ll"acticablc to guard against it in this BilL

:\1r. MORGAK: Had this amendment been '.jubinittcd by the produce agents of Brisbane I cot1ld undcr·tand it being snbmitted to this IIouse on tlwir rccornrnendation; but I understand this is a Bill to protect the con­sunwr, not the unscl'upulous farmer.

1\Ir. I'ETERSOX : A Bill to protPct the fal'll1Pl' \Vho is buying fodder, too.

:.Vh. :\IORCAN: Exactlv-the unfortunat0 fanner huying foddPr to keep his stock a!iYP.

Tlw SECHETAHY FOR AGRilTLTeRE: Th"Y don't produce any fodder in }Our electorate

:.VIr. 1IORGAX: Yes. they do. The Goondi­\Yindl portion of rny Q]cctoratc is one of the principal \Yhcatgrowing portions of Qncens­!and. Th~ argumc·nt:S u:-;ed bv the ho11. rr1PL.. brr for \Viud~or in connecti~n with sendint gTC{'ll chaff to th0 Htnrkct is o·wing to thtT fact that the ]ll"iC<' is so great to-da< that th" fa.nner i:-; cutting up chaff practi{'n.lly from tho stook. not putting it into the stack, owing to t!w high pric~'· If he likes to ck that, jt i-; his ow11 funeral, and it is b.ein~ snapp,•d up b0· people owing to shortage. Rnt this Bill dot~::; not conw into operation until tlw 1-t .January. and all tlwt green stuff will be consumed long beforn that. At an~' rate. I take it that this Bill is to protE'(:t thr u.nfvdt..IEahs Hlctl1 whu ha.,_ tu bu)'', not to gin? cuncc::;sions to the fortunate n1an who has something to sell. That is the way we ;;hould look at the Bill. .\11 that is nPccssary is to mer•t the amendment cir,cll!ated by the hon. rrwmber for Cnnningharri, and the 1\finistN would be well advised to have a eonsultation with his friends before this goes through.

Mr. :\100RI<; (A ubi(!ny): I intend to OplJDSf' this arncnclmcnt. ri'hc Yf'ry re.aSOll why the Bill was brought in in Victoria. was to protect people from getting hay and str.tw mixed together. Let the fa rmor send the hay and Rtra~.v d(nrn scparatel:'>. and let the buyors mix it themoelves. If this provision goes into the Bill it is going to destroy it. I am pcrfoot!Y in agreement with the hen. membN for Too\\oomba-it is not often that I am. I think this is opening the door to fraud. although this ver,- clause wa.s put in thf' Hill in order to stop it. I hftve no objec­tion to lucerrw hay being mixed with straw, but when we arc dealing with oaten hay and stra"· it is a different thing. Personally, I hayc been cutting hay for the last twenty ~rears and I ha,-e nr,ver drean1ed of n1ixing hay a.nd straw together while it was being out into chaff. I do not think I have even sf'en a hay stack and a straw stack alongside o1w another so that they could be mixed.

:VIr. PETBRSON: \Vc wcrA only going on what tho hon. member for Cunningham said.

Mr. MOORE : I do not know what he said, but I know there is no hardship. If a man wants a mixture of the two chaffs, let him mix them himself. I do not know of any farmers on the Downs who mix their chaff; there may be an odd one or two. They ;;end it down as wheaten hf1v or straw chaff. It is mixed in Brisbane and ·not on the farm.

Mr. Moore.J

1512 Stuck Foods Bill. [ASSE:\IBLY.] Stock Foorls Bill.

It. is straw in the chaff. tl1at I haYo got chaff in dry tirnt'l'i chilff and havn had 1ny O\Vil

opinion that there of stntiV in it. You cannot prove: tl'LLIY has been put in it.

?>lr. BHEKKAK : \Yhat quantity has Goon put in?

f,Ir. : Yon cannot tell what qmm-titv has pnt in; :vou cannot prove that it ·has be ell }Htt in, although kno1;y in your O\Yll n1ind. Jf you buv hay ~1wif. ,you oug-ht. to 'kno-w · vou arc getting. and if you ·want to "wheaten stn11Y chaff, buy 5:0 man:,~ bags n1ix it. ~When yen !my a mixed chaff, cannot tf'll proport1on, nud nobody going to pnt proportion on the · This Bill has taken [Jmctically for word front Viuorian _.\et, b~tt ono thing in the Victnria11 is to b,; knockr;d ont. not have lnernw chaff recent voa.rs it 1\ os a rnn~ on the n1a:-rket. \Y c a1·o not the rnixing of oaten stra\Y and Jncenw I an1 sure that. thD ho11. for Cunninrrhan1 int(~Ddf'd that amprHlmr•nt sho1~ld go as as this, and think the would bo well advi cd to lmvc• a l1is O\Vn Produce .AgTllC'~' l!Ulll.

eu.;:;to1u a 1·v to iic~ of :->t1~<t\\ IYith ·wheat{'n that \\iH· thP rcn~on \YhY the' \Vas in'"rodncecl. . th..___, hem. mc'lnbur for

>aiel. practically no oaten in at ail. and the only

the wheat gro\vn ii1 Ditrling Downs. So fal~

mi xccl tl\' the merchrtnts is cmnparccl \~ith that mixed by it is a JH'0,·ligibl(' quantity. [

the Bill to be afraid of. wi Jl be son1o unscrupulous take aclYantago of it, but

~1o lm:-Jcrupulous persons, we Lnrs or rrnv Parlian1ent. n ltHl n h~;~ to hranc1 a

ou_t containing n.. a protectiol!. I admit not know the qua.ntity

but to he a blP to even on the farn1, or in

it was min'd, >Yonld be One -..vou1d hrtvo a

d1an anolh0r. pro,-idc thrtt of r'n,ch shrtll he ;tated is sim]lly

the farmer and the merchant to do thC' 1nipossiblC', although. probably. the rncr­chant 'YOu]d not find it quite so difficult as the fa rr:1Pr. There \Yas no protection to the

before the Bill >YaB introduced. He is it now, and I think the armmdment

will meet the case.

Mr. BR EN:'\ AN: This Bill was brouo-ht in for the benefit of the farmers and the

[Mr. Moon

of produce for stock, and if th\s anowerl to go through, it will leave

tho n1attt1 r Yf'l'Y open. I think the NiinlstPr \vordd \n'll ad\'iscd to accept the amend­

the- hou. mcn1lwr for J\lurilla, because cnn that fraud 111av be excrr:ised.

vcr'- fact on the other side 1 !1c~ p_Lo(Juce ag.c nts ad,Tocati ng it farm er~' n'J n·o~cnta ti vcs and the thPlll"'(']Yes dPrn·(•c:tting it, shonld Jnak-~~ }',linist-•r COilsidcr it seriously.

Ivir. np j11

Too\voon1 ba. Df the hor1. not allow the do\i\'11 rtnd his ha.v souncl. I \\~mJltl not if 1 conld possibl~- hdp Jlothing· tn couq10l the' fannc~r oiT<JW and hay chaff. He

to huv vonr is in 'it. I

any farn1er t.o · unknown f'YCS O(l(__"l,

j~ a rnix0fl a.1'1 icle~

l\Tr. BREXX.\~: You arc bYi::ting now.

}fr. COH_SER: Xo. I an1 n1o:.:;t con~istenL

()('

nJnrli::r'c1 ns '· onld knO\'i~ to pro'" that hac! bc0n thnt. n1j:xing ::-:bon1d not lln 'idH'n von cannot trace it nnd pron~ it for the pu.rpor::o of a prosPcutlon. A mn:n couic!­giYe £15 for a ton of good hay chaff and £5 for a ton of good \YlH:StPn stnnv ar:.d mix thrm and 'rll tlwm for £15 or £16 1011. Lonk nt tbe enornwus profit ho mukc: J hone that members on the

sidP \Yho fnnncr~' w11l not a nvthlnQ' of sort

to u·o into n Bill whieh js introduced to pre~··ont fraud.

The"' _,:\ rt:i! FOR, I lHtYC ·with a to ·what said. ! Le~ c lnc]nf-'ion that the hon. n1r'rnb0r for Auh1gn:v rwmher for ::'VIurillfl i~ cln0 t-o fact that I atn not accepting the amcnd~!H~nt moYed by the hon. 1l1C'ITihC'r for Cnnn1nghan1. As a matter of fact. I arranged ,,-ith the Govcrn­nwnt to hold this ba<'k >vhen I \YCnt to the A,cTif'uHural J)('partrncnt 1 and I \Vollt. carc­fnlly throng-h it, and I arri.Yr~d at n1y conch~~-sions, ,,-ithont ad•·icc from the OpposJ-tion. r:- a fnrn1er, and kno"\ving \dud th0 farmt'rs yeqnirc. It appears. to "'" that because the hon. member for Munlla thinks thnt I am going· a little further than the hon. mcmlwr for Cunningham, he desires to obstruct. It is quite refreshing to find the hon. member for Murilla plcacling for 1 he poor consumer as against the producer. I stand for the producer all the time, I

Stock Foods Hill. [22 OcTOBER] 1Vorke1'c:' Homes Hill. 1513

stand for doing a fair thing so far as this Dill is concerned by both the seller and the purCJ.~a.ser.

Mr. !110HGAN: The consurner is also tho ]lrod1cer.

The SECHETARY FOR );.GRICL:LTURE: The hon. member would impose conditions ~o a<::< to prcYent him fron1 mixing chaff and >ending it to market.

Mr 'IIORG.\N: Mixing straw with hay, every ti1ne.

The SECRETAHY FOR A!;H.IGCLTURE: To mind, he ,.-ould pay the biggest price for hmt article.. and it is with that in

I move the amendment. My first to cut the clause out altogether,

''""" the grc 1t diflicultics ahead; hut it just as well to endeavour to view both sides of tho case. I think it is an utter impossibility to tell the farmer thd he m,ust specif:v wbnt percentage of stra\v or of lucerne, or any othc>r particular inpTodi~

there is ill hls rhaff. and it is lK'ca-us.-· that that I framed a. clause on tho

on which it i,. 'The main obj0ct of the is not to doCLl with produc;t, of the at "ll hnt to deal with prepared and

concentrated foods. That is where tho adultcrat.ion cornes in and \\rhcre the Bill is needed.

Ii· t::i

ntcmbcr is a good ono or

amendment simpl~r proYidcd for the of luc0rne haY and straw. If a 111<1n

,dwaten ha:v ~nd \vhca.ten stra,Y, and as mic:P<l chafr. with the p•·oportiou of o;,ch ,!ZU<Il'ant·,cd, there \Yonld bt~ 110 objection) how 1ncn \Yill 1nix \Yheaten }Jay wlw£;.tcn and will not · c·haff '( \V c know that <tnd ~t.raY' and ~ ,11 jt ns

The SECRETARY FOR AGBTCULTCRE That i,; a reftrction on the farn1crs.

: Tt no good the :0v_Gni:-ter LiL"h ~u~d ;

tlw iam>cr,. \\~o persons in

to tah, a Bill. This who buy and

11roduec .c. gents, and it 'is not the unscrupulous produce agent. The farlllf'r who is pur('hasin_g to-da~v has a rjght tn pr{Jtcrtion, and I m11 yH'rfectl_y -ct>rh1in that if thP ;:unendm-ent is agTc"ed to the bU\'')r~ will not be pcotcctcd, and mixed charT ·.,·j]] be sold as huv choff, and vou will not bo able to find Oc;t 'vhether it i"s mixc cl chaff or not. The lVIinister rnu6t Tf'alisc that there is this dauger. Cereal hay and straw should be prohibited from being mixed for sale.

G£llic.'/s) agreed to.: on cl cl<tnse, ns put a.nJ passed.

Clames 9 to 16, both inclusive, put and pa' wd.

Th~...· House resuwcd; and the CIL\IRi.\l:~N report-.:d t1H~ Dill with r.tJnendnH:.,ltB.

The of the Bill "~us IC1ado an Order tO-JYlOlTO\Y.

\YORKT<~RS' IIOl\mS DILL.

Cos· il"'EHY.r-rox IN Co::\DlTTTEE OF CovN"ciL's A "I ENll ~I ENT~.

(Jir. Dcrir'tltl, Jlarr:c, in tltr: clu;ir.i

On d<Hi P 2~" ltdrTprr'tution"-

Tl1at the• Council',.:: ~une!H1n.!C':i.lt Le di.)t:.:..:;n~cd to.

of

J~ven if tl-H~ land is of ~l"!lall CODlC under th0 prOVISlOllS

D•Ycllings Act.

Tbe this

The CHAIRMAN: momll(''" must deal with

.,. the ~nrnc

Order ! Tho hon. the amendment.

Mr. Morgan.]

1514 Workers' Homes Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] W or leers' Homes Bill.

Mr. MORGAN: I am pointing out that the conntrv \vorkt"r in a great nun1ber of cases poss'csses land in foe·simple. The amendment is a desirah1e one, and I intend to support it, and I hope that the Upper House will insist on it. If they do I feel surP th .• t the Minister will not wreck the Bill.

Tlw PREmER: If the Upper House insist on the amendment they will imperil the Bill.

Mr. MORGAJ\': If tho Government aro pequred to »-reek a Bill .of this description because of their policy in regard to porpotwal leases, they arc very foolish. I hopo the Upper House will insist on their amendment.

:Yir. CGRSER: ·while I re< ogniso that the amendment is against the polic7 laid down by the Government, it must bo 'remembered that thc""o country lands worP cut up and purchase'<:! prior to the advent of the present Govcrn1nont, and there is: no reason \Yhv, in introducing a Bill of this sort, thn£ the Government should boycott those particular individuals in tho eount.ry. Ilowever, vvo know that this clause will be amended after the next clecticn, but in the meantime there is no rcuson 1vby th{' Govcrn1nent, after having received full value for the land, should boycott tho holders of those small tm' nship allotments. They should not be denied the privileges. 1vhich this Government ciaim they are making available to those desirous of providing a home for themselves.

Mr. TAYLOH: I am sorry, indeed, to hear the Premier say that if the Lc;:;islative Council insisted on this particular amend· mcnt it would imperil the Bill.

The PRE~IIER: That is the situation.

Mr. TA YLOR : I certain!" think that the hon. member for Burnett made out a splendid case, when he said that the persons who had bought land under previous Governments should not be debarred from the operations of this Bill.

Mr. CORSER: And also those who bought land under this Government.

Mr. TAYLOR: There are hundreds and thousands of worker, who have brought small allotme·nts of land in the metropolitan area, some on long tenns and some on easy terms, and they may have had a considerable time in which to pay for that land. I fail to see the justice or ·equity .of depriving those people of the benefits of a measure like this. So far as interfering with the Government policy of perpetual lease is concerned, it does nothing of the kind. It gives the Government greater se-curity than, probably, the perpetual l!'aso holder would. I think the amendment of the Council should be accepted; if not, a.n injustice will be done to many persons who purchased their land in the mE,tropolitan area. I know that they can come l.lnder the provisions of this Bill jf they adopt. the Government policy, but Jt may not smt them to do so, and that is no rc1son why they sh-ould be kept out of the. scope .of the Bill. Any member o£ the community, and particularly any taxpayer, should be allowed to come within the pro· visions of this Bill, and it should not be reserved for one particular class who are willing to carry out the policy declare•d by the Government.

Mr.. SIZER : I am sorry to hear the Premwr say that this Bill will be declared

[.Mr. Morgan.

" lost" if the Legislative Council insist on their amendment. I do not see, that it interferes with tho Government policy of perpetwd lease at all. If the Council had knocked out the perpetual leasq principle and inserted a " fee·.oimple " I could under· stand the Premier's argument, but the Council have made it optional. If, as hon. membccs opposite· say, the perpetual lease provision is so popular, there is no need to quibhle about the words, because the workers will naturally select the perpetual lease in that c:cse·. There has been considerable unanimity on both sides in connection with this Bill, and I hope the Premier will 1ccept the Council's amendment.

The PREMIER : The last two members who have spoken seemed to think that a man with fred1old land is under a disability so far as this Bill is concerned, but he is at no disadnmtage at all. It is true that those homes '"ill not bo built upon freehold land, and any man in the country who wants a home under this Bill will have to take it on tho same terms as it is offered to every· one else. \Ve cannot make special conditions for everybody. There is no disability against anyone, because everyone taking a home under this Bill has an equal opportunity. If a man has an allotment of land, and he wants to build on another area, the best thing for him to do is to realise on his land. These homes will not be scattered all about the metropolitan area, or in the country. It is intended to group them in model town­ships for the purpose of economical building, and economical management subsequently. It is not right to ;,ay that a man with free· hold is debarred from this scheme, but we aro not going to make special conditions .iust to suit the whim of thE) Legislative Council.

l'vfr. BEBBINGTON: Make it either leasehold or fre·ehold.

The PREMIER: Wo cannot do that. The homes must be built in groups. That is neceosary for the management of the homes. The hon. member for Windsor expressed some concern that the Bill would be " lost" if the Council insisted on their amendment. That is what will happen if the Council do not agree to delete their amendment. In that event, the Bill will be· declared "lost" when it comes back to this Chamber. The Government policy must be carried out without disability to anyone.

Question-That the Council's amendment in clause 2 be disagreed to-put; and the Committee divided :-

li'Ir. Armficlil Barber Brennan Collins

,, Cooper, F. A. Cooper, W. Coyne Fihelly Folev For de Free Gillies Gledson .Tames ~IcLachlan

AYES, 29.

1\ir. Mullan , 0' tlullivan ,, Payne , Peterson , 1Hordan , Ryan, D. , Rm•ith , Thcodore ,. Thompson

Weir , W ellimgton , Whitford , Wilson , '\Vinstanlcy

Tellers : Mr. W. Cooper and Mr. Forde.

W orkm·s' Homes Bill. [22 OcTOBER.] Workers· Homes Bill. 1515

Mr. Barnes, G. P. , Bayley , Bebbington ,, Oorser , Grayson , Gunn , Rodge

Tellers: Mr.

No:.:s, 14. }Jr. Moore , Morgan , Hobrrts , Sizer , Taylor , Vnwles " Warren

Grayson and Mr. Sizer.

PAIR.

Ayo-n-Ir. Gilday. l\'o-~\fr. Appel.

Resolved in thQ affirmative.

~H half-past 8 o'clock p.m., Mr. FoLEY (ono of the Temporary Chair­

men) reheved the Chairman in the chair.

The PRE:YIIER: I move that the Council's arne11drncnt in clause 2 omitting "five pounds" as the interest 0;1 the capital cost, be disagreed to. They have added the words " to be fixed from time to time bv the Governor in Council," so as to leave uit an open question to bf) determined by the Govern~n- i1_1 Council. There is no objection to leavmg 1t open m that ,,·ay, but there is an objectiOn to the Legislative Council inter­fering in a ma.ttm· of this kind which is outside ~heir p6vilege. It is enti{·ely within t_he pnnleg" of the L<'gislatiYe Assembly to ftx all matters, such as the rates of interest eonditio~1ing, or restricting the expenditur~ of pubbc moneys. It would be unwise to admit tho right of the Legislative Council to alter this. It is far better to have it actually definitely stated in the Bill than to have an open question. But the principal obJectwn to the amendment is that it is an invasion of the rights of the Legislative Assembly. I therefore move that the Le"is­lative Council's amendment be disagr~ed with.

'211r. :YIORGAN: Evidently this is a matter in dispute between the Government and the 'Upper House. ·

The PRE~IIER: Between this House and the Upper House.

Mr. MORGAN: Between a section of this House and the Upper House. But, no doubt, eventually some agreement will be arrived at.

The PREMIEH: Would you accept that amendment which they had no right to make"

Mr. MORGAN: vye do not intend, in any shape or form, to mterfore, so far as the Government are concerned in this matter.

Mr. SIZER: I think it is admitted gener­ally that the Legislative Council have no r_ight to interfere with money Bills. I would hke to know hom the Premier does he mean t.hat the Legislative Council cannot interfere with any money portions of a Bill of any description.

. The PREMIER: Undoubtedly. They have no nght to mterfcre with the money section of any BilL

Mr. SIZER: That is the information I wanted. \Ve hear much of this on manv occasions, and it is now an admitted fact that the Council have no right to interfere With the money part of any Bill. That is something which is probablv now to manY members of the House, and \vhich may raise many big questions.

Amendment put and negatived. On amendment in clause 6-The PREMIER: The Council have inserted

a fe_w words which have the effect of pre­ventmg the Government acquiring land other

than that used for public parks or recreation purposes. Of couri,e, it must be obvious enough that there would be no intention on the part of the Government to acquire land used for public parks. However, as they d;·sire that a.mendment put in to make it perfectly safe, I have no objection, and I beg to move that the Council's amendment be agreed to.

Amendment agreed to.

The PREMIER: In clause 2, subsection 2, the Legislative Council have inserted tho words " at the option of the owner," which has the effect of conditioning the payment of rnoney as co1npcnsation when land is acquired. The Bill provides, at present, that compensation might be paid either in cash or bv the issue of debentures. Tho Council puts, in tht• words "et the option of the owner." I think thoro would be no objection to that condition being put in; a" a matter of fact, it is perfectly certain that in making an arrangement with the owners when the land is resumed the owner would be con­sulted, and an agrccn1cnt arrived at as to whdher the amount ·_,·ould be paid in cash or bv debentures. L~ut this is another mattAr in \\;hich the Council has interfered with the rig-ht of the Assembly. This matt, r affech the expenditure of public moneys, and they ha Ye no right to restrict or alter it in any way. On those grounds I beg to move that the Council's amendment be disagreed to.

yj_; .. M ORGAN: I think that the owner of the land has an absolute right to say whether or not he is prepa.red to accept Government debentures. Tho Government should not be in tho position that they can compel the individual to accept debentures whether he likes it or not. It may financially embarras:> the people whose land is acquired. I cer­tainly do not object to the Government acquiring land in connection with this par­ticular Bill-it is a proper thing to do­but we certainly do think, independent alto~ gether of whether the Council have the right to ma.kc this particular amendment or not, that the amendment is a very wise one. It is a protection that the owners of property are entitled to. In my opinion the amend­ment should be insisted upon.

Mr. GUKN: I think, too, that this is a very wise amendment. We are purchasing too much property by debentures in Quecens­land, and these debentures arc free from income tax. I think it is going to lead the country into a lot of trouble.

A GovERNMENT MEMBER: They are not frc·o from Federal tax.

~1r. GUN=": But they are free from State income tax, which is a very serious thing. If you make a profit j nst now over a certain amount you have to pay 2s. 6d. income tax. If you happen to sell for debentures you save 2s. 6d. in thee £1 income tax. We have too much of this purchasing by debentures. Those Northern stations have been bought for large sums of money, and the holders of those debentures am free from income tax; yet the rest of the people in Queensland have to pay income tax.

Mr. WHITFORD: You must be opposed to this amendment.

Mr. GUNN: I am oppose,d to the deben­ture part of it. I like to see trading straight out-in cash.

1!11·. Gunn. J

l51G Workers· Homes Hill. [ASSEJ'.IBL Y.] Workers' Hmnes Bill.

Mr. SIZER: I have spoken on this question previousl:v. I think it is a very

shortsig-hted policy. It may over the diflicultv for to-dav

~'lHtu of ~notH_'~ from Stat() but time i·" corrling whrn it

ncressarv for us to look round to nook and~ corner 'vhere revenue can

:wd 'vo shall then bog-in to find tl!nt m_anY llH:n hon. g0ntlornen 1)1\~JOsitr r(,fc•r to a;:, and :--o on, hnvo sold to the Gon•r11n1ont arc excinpt from taxation to extrnt of

on account of these would have be('ll far better,

had a little a Hl

themsch·es th(' l"i!-(ht to snn1s of n1oncy vvhich, in be held bv men 'vho nn

taxation and fron1 \vhorn Y,'O IT!HSt to g('t our taxation. I \You1d lH~ v<·r~Y p1('1.'3Crl to see fhP GoYcrnn1cnt chango

polic:· in this r. spoct, even to the extent a little inter est. If it is going

r.o rnak0 for peo111e less n ble to some of dcbcnture-hol(1er~ f'Xt?mpt.

}Ir. Thi, matte·r of is brcon1ing· ""Ierv

:-<en on:-:. EYPry busiu( ss site that the b-ovenl­rrwnt opens jn a.uy to\Yn or rjty takf's part of tbc reyenue \Yhich the citv council or ,hire has been in the habit of J:ccei,-ing and

the shoulders of the taxpayers. take Cccil I'lains. I bc·licw

so mm ·here between £8.000 before the Covcrllment

of it. No-w- the Govern­n.nd that £8,000 or £12.000

O_l to the tax11ayors. H Pre 1vhero the State :-;awn1ill is. we

ex<JnlplP. The previous 0\Yl1Pr

"1ll~+m•»d· paid "'£86 per annum rates City CounciL Since the

has had ros:~c-s::;ion of tllat pioco lmYc paid nothing. Tlw other

ha.d to proyide the streets ~~\-t;ry mPc-1"n~ for their \Yagons to go over,

and 1t IS becOJning very serious. Then thrre aro fh _ SL)_te stations. I do not know whether the GoY0rnment pay any share of the rate; JJOW. Tlwv promised to do ~o but I not think the·:v have redeemed 'that

: ~o t.i1at cYcry 5ta.tion, 8Very allot­ment of land, and every businns place op0ncd h:Y the Government means Jc~s taxa­tion going into the shire· or citv and an additional burden upon the ord!narv tax­naYor. I am going to vote fo"r the ~tn{0nchnent.

CORSER: I am opposed to wholesale by debentures, of these lands

acquired by the State·, and also of their State stations. and the wholesale sccurin"' of profits by debentures. ~

The• PREC\TTER: \Nil! vou sug-gest that this land be pai·cl for out of consolicfated revenue.

Mr. CORSER: The amcndmc·nt does not provide that.. Considering that this land compulsorily acquired bv the Crown from smnc judi dclual 'vho m a~ be n1aking n1onov out. ~d this particu1ar land, \Yho n1ay b8 rc"·1d1ng there as well as rr1aking n1onev out of it~he would h<n·e to accept these deben­turPs~Jt "·ould not he capital to enable him to start another business.

T11n PRr:1fU:R: I ~a.v it --;son]d be a 111attor fo_r ncgotiat.ion, a~ it is ,at ihe pres-Pnt tinw w1th regard to the acquisition of land.

[Mr. Sizer.

Probably ptirtly cnsh and partly debentures '\Yould be arranged for. . ::\Tr. COllSER: No option is provided for In tlH~ iJill. The ,o\vnc)r- has tu accept deben­tures.

The Pru:::.IJER: I ha,~o a.ln'Jf1v btatcd It;; no ohj('.-:tjDn to rhn HmClldr.nent 111 cxcerlt fer the Couu~il's interfering.

Mr. CORSFH: \Ve camwt sland 011 cere rnony iu t-lH·sc matters.

The PnE:'.IJEn: \Ye 1nust stunC~ on our rights.

COHSEE: There is no why wo not accept the a1ncndn1ent it is a

Pl"etnier .::rays that provision thing, and e r hould

acce1lt the an1endmcnt fron1.

quit<' evident that

pa,\· for cut of l-Ion. nwrnbe1·~ uf dE:hentures ,hunld !Jl•

cash n11t of the Loan Fund. jt:-;el£ ].:; only au:mnulatcd ln· tu1·· ", atllOll~"t'it other things.~

::llr. SI7.ER: \Ye object because they are e~crnpt frocn taxaticu.

T!w \Ylwllwr

f..tor'k or irnnuttPrial to the aY('rage bond­

the jntc~rc··~t Ullon hi.., bonds is exempt from tax or whetlw-r he is rr;mpensated for iHconl-n tax by a lovn?-r

It is all a questjon of the rnarkrt. after nll. Th0 Cnnunon\vealth Govcrn­

l1lCllt recentlY in their issues of ''Tar stock . lm \'0 ur•tcrm"ined to malw all the bonds

subject to Co:ninon\\·f'nlth i1womo tax, and I think it is IYiso horn the point of view that it is n 1nore 0quitablo arranp;onil'nt. TJ nder the old a man 1Yho had a ,·cry large holding war -stock would escap-e hcn~ing to pay fi. greater rate in the ponnd on thA inter d than the man who ,,-as the holder of a small parcel. Howcvc1·, that opens up thC' co11-?idcr0t1on of a vnry larr;e q:.H•stion of poli(·y. indeed, which cannot he Sf'ttled on a Bill of this kind. Tho ehicf obi,,ction to tho nnH•ndrnt•nt is that the Ccunci1 a~re intorfcring­'"ith a matter ,,-ith '"hich they !J<rvc no right to interfere. with a monetarv matter. with a 1natter affcct1ng the finan{'C; of the StatP, a 1nattcr effecting the conditior s on which ]nnd shall be pnrcha~cd, <1 matter ,re,··1ly ::tff0cting public 0XJwnditnrr. Thcv have 110 ri?,"ht le> rf':st.rict us or ]av clo\Yn conditions at nJJ. and I think -wC would ver\7 un\vi~(~ to '}Ya.jve our rights or confer on tl1c Counri; :1

right whjch is denied to thmn under the Comtitution, and has n<'VL'l" been admitted in the hi::;tory of constitutional goverrunont in Queensland.

Mr. MORGA'\f: The prineipal point is th<Jt the Govo:·nment may compulsorily issue debenture~ to a person from whom they

Workers' Homes Bill. [:?2 OcTOBER.] Workers' Homes Bill. 1517

land. If he dQsiros dehe11turNl. no obj0ction; but if he <'ash." the GoYcrnment 1n

amew:lment rnerch~ for giving the option. ~

The PnnrrEH: I have alrcach >'aid that it doe, r:ot anything n;~H'l' than the policy in a ea'30 or that

the as it 1s the

that >Ye

:yon puy PRE)IlER: We would have to pay cash

cdOHGA:L\: The Gcwrnnwnt mig;ht pistol over the head of that

done in other a pi,tol at the of the

in or-~...ler to thew to HH'at ut a. certtain price Did they not eompcl thern the threat of rr·~umpticn of thL~ir ? The fillancial posjtiuu Df tlw GoVE'l'llllH~llt is h-e.d. as f'VPJ'\:IKJdy

knows, and I suppose <'Cl'taiulv cou.lcl. not find suff'1clPnt ca~h io land f(;l' 1Yorkors1

honH ·, but unclt•r ti1is thev Collld 20 or 3t) <HTPS of ar'ound

the O\Yncr to t(ikt~ liked it or not.

shonld haYe the optiou. \Ve intend arncJtdtJJent of the Cpper

tll•' tl.ar the

'11 otlon)

:\Jr.

CO(il!!'l',

CoojH'l' ., CO\'llC''

Fil,l'lly Forde ~

1luxham .Tnmc~ Llov:1

F. ,\. IV.

?IIrCormnck

-'"YE"• :J3. tli'. .\: eL:1ehlan

\\~ihon

,, \\~instanle-y

Tellers: JI;Ir. H. J. Ryan and Mr. Whitford.

1\lr, Darn('S. G. P. Ba\'lPv

.. ReiJbi~lgion Corser Gnnson Gun'n

Ko£s, 15. 1\Ir. Morgan

, Hobcrts , Sizer

~·omets(•t

, IT odge , \Yarrrn , 2.\Ioore

Tellers: Mr. Ba.yley and Mr. Warren. PAnt.

Aye-"llr. Gilday. No-Mr. Appel.

Resolved in the <Iffirmative. At 9 o'clock p.m., The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. On clause 10-" Limit nf purchasing

price"-

The next amendment Conucil is ill clause 10, and interference with the rights on the part of the Leg;1sla-

they arc attL·mpting ro of mDn v th~1t m a\' be:

un.dcr the Bifl. I is .a 'ery hi6h u.nd

to On ha:3 no to

intf'rfering \Vith Bole of i·hc Assembly. I lllove-,, That the amendment be disagreed

to.n i\fr. \TO\VLES: It appears to me that the

GoYernn1ent aro merely objecting to . this an1Pndrnent in order to preserve the r1ghts of the /l.ssembly. \Ye C]Uite understand that the Council has no rlght to interfere with mone::· rnattt~r.s, bnt \ve n1u~t recognise that

limitation should be inserted in the and it \n::s an oiuission ou the part of

Chamber that some such limitation was Lot insPrted. If the hon. gentleman will look at it from a practical 3idu, ht' 1nust

that the amendment will be a good thi11g the depnrbnont.

The PP.EJ\l1EH: That amendment would bo apart altogether frorn. the constitu­

of tho q ucstion. Y on do not the U-o\~(!rnn1ont i. ill advance

a \vorkers' hon1e?

and passed.

It_ says hotbt' shall be

does 11ot suy If we

WO f-Jnd 98 it

On cl nu· e 13-" Purchascr 1S J'ights under

t·ontract of sale"-

polic,v think we hold to fn'chold.

amc·ndme11t inserted 13 is roallv the

dcC"clt 1rith in freehold versus

no necessity to amcndn1ont is

::;;[linst thn the GoYPrnrncnt and beca.w~o I

give better terms under lease­purchasers than we can under Leg to InoYn-

"That Council's amcndn1eut bo dis<1~~re0d to .

Question put and passed. On clause 27-" lic?ulutions"-

The PREMIER: In clause 27 the Council has inserted a number of amendments relating to the regulations and making the Bill conform with certain other Bills which ha ,-e been passed in recent years. \Ye know that the Council has insisted that certain forms slmll be adopted in regard to regula­tions to cmsure that the regtdations shall b<> placed before the Legislative Council, and that they will have the right to disallow them

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]

1518 Resignation of Mr. Hunter. [COUNCIL.]

on their resolution as well as the right possessed by the Assembly to disallow the same roguiations. As we have accepted similar amendments in other Bills, although I do not think it is the wisest course, I think we may agreB to these amendments. Therefore, I move-

" That the Council's amendments on clause 27 be agreed to."

Question put and passed. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN

reported that the Committee had agreed to some of the Legislative Council's amendments and had disagreed to others; and the repmt was adopted by the House.

The Bill was ordered to be returned to the Legislative Council with the following messa.ge :-

"Mr. President,-

" The Legislative Assembly, having had under consideration the Legislative Council's an1end1ncnts in the \Vorkers' Homes Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

" Disagree to the amendments in clause 2, page 1, line 13, and clause 13, page 5, lines 44 and 45-

" Because the policy of the Govern­ment is opposed to the further alienation of Crown lands. Further, it is considered that easier terms can be extended to the purchasers of homes under the Bill by the granting- of leaseholds than would be the case if freeholds were granted.

" Disagree to the amendments in clause 2, page 1, lines 18 to 20; clause 6, page 3, line 4'7; and clause 10, page 5, lines 21 to 23-

" Because such amendments interfere with the undoubted and sole right of the Legislative Assembly to direct, restric·t, or condition the expenditure of public moneys; and this right cannot be waived by the Lei!islative Assembly, nor can it be conceded to the Legislative Council; and

" Agree to all other amendments in the Bill."

RESIGNATION OF THE HON. J. M. HUNTER.

The SPEAKER: I have to announce the receipt of the following letter from the Hon. J. M. Hunter:-

" The Honourable the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, Brisbane.

" Sir,-I bave the honour hereby to resign mY seat in the Legislative Assembly '~s member for Maranoa. "I have the honour to be, Sir,

"Your most obedient servant, .. J. M. HUNTER."

0PPOSITIOX J\1DIBERS: Hear, hear !

The PREMIER : I beg to move-" That the seat in this House for the

electoral district of J\1aranoa hath become and is now vacant by reason of the resig­nation thereof of the Hon. John McEwan Hunter."

Question put and passed. The House adjourned at ten minutes past

9 o'clock p.m.

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

Seajorth Estate Hill.