Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 11 JULY 1866

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

· 496 C1tmbe1•land Disease Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Financial Position qfthe Colony.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Wednesday, 11 July, 1866.

Financial Position of the Colony.-Ministerial Explana­tion.

THE FINANCIAL POSITION OF THE COLONY;

Mr. T.A.YLOR: With permission of the House, I will put a question, without notice, to the honorable the Colonial Treasurer, which I hope he will answer, as it is one of vital importance to the country, and I· think honorable members will agree with me that it is necessary to put it :-What steps do the Government intend to take to meet the present financial difficulty, owing to the important news received by telegram from England?

The CoLONIAL TRE.A.SURER : In reply to the question which the honorable member has asked, without notice, I will state, as promptly as I can, the· steps which the Government intend to take in relation to the subject referred to by the honorable member. In the first place, at as early a time as possible after the intelligence received by the telegraph wire yesterday, the Govern­ment placed themselves in communication with the manager of the Agra Bank, in Sydney, in order to discover how far that intelligence w01;lld affect the agreement between that bank and the Government, in regard to the negotiation for the sale of our debentures. Further, I have, to-day, issued circulars to the managers of the banks in Queensland, with the view of meeting them to-morrow morning on the subject, 'and asking them to what extent they are prepared, if at all, to relieve the Govern­ment and to meet the exigencies of the present time. ~. case the banks of this colony should be unwilling or unable to meet these exigencies, it is the inten.tion of the Government to ask this House, to-morrow, to take the first step towards passing a Bill, which Bill will have the effect of enabling the Government to issue Govern­ment notes to the amount of £200,000, such notes to be made by that Bill a legal tender, and to be received at the Treasury for all purposes except customs duties. During the cuhency of twelve months, it will be provided that these notes may be re-issued for all purposes except customs duties, as they are taken into the Treasury ; but after twelve months they will be received for customs duties. There are other details of the Bill, with which it is not, perhaps, necessary for me to trouble· the House at present. Perhaps it may not be necessary, after hearing the feeling and opinion of the mana~ers of the different banks to-morrow mormng, to take such a step as I have indicated ; but I think it is well that an opportunity has occurred to enable me to state what are the intentions of the Govern­ment, should their negotiations with the banks fail.

Ministerial Explanation. [11 JuLY.] Ministe1'ictl Erplanation. 497.

MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION. The SECRETARY FOR LANDS AND WORKS :

As honorable members are no doubt anxious to know the determination at which the Government have arrived with regard to the vote given by this House last night, I rise for the purpose of putting the House in possession of that information. I do not know, that in doing so, I shall be able to afford honorable members much more infor­mation than they already possess, as to the course of action which the Government intend to pursue. When I addressed the House last evening, upon the amendment of the honorable member for North Brisbane, Mr. Raff, as honorable members will recollect, I distinctly stated that, in the event of the Government being · defeated upon that amendment, they would feel it their duty to propose to this House to withdraw the Land Bill, or, at all events, to allow it to drop. At a subsequent stage of the debate I intimated that the Government would be perfectly prepared, notwithstanding that course, to introduce immediately a short Bill, to give effect to those amendments which thev intended to introduce into that Bill-I refer to the leasing clauses. I also intimated that, for reasons •which I then stated, it was highly impolitic and injudicious to ask for a dissolution of Parliament at the present moment; but that the Government were quite prepared to appeal to the country, in the early part of next year-say, in the month of January next. Now, sir, after. having consulted with my colleagues, and having fully deliberated on the matter, I have to say they quite agree with me that the course which I announced last night is the proper course to be pursued; and, in point of fact, it is th\l, only course open to us, as a Government. It is the constitutional course, tts usually adopted in England, and we propose to adopt it now ; not with any des1re for one moment to retain office, but because w-e feel it would not be advantageous ~o the .colony-nor do I think the majority m th1s House would desire-that the Government should go out o( office at this moment. I will read to the House the aut];writy of a very able man upol). this subJect, Lord Derby, then Lord Stanley, contained in a letter addressed by him to Lord Metcalfe, the Governor-General of Canada. It refers to•the course of conduct whic~ a Governm~nt oug:Q,t to pursue under the circumstances m which the Government of this colony is now placed. He says :-

"I am anxious to disclaim, in the strongest terms, as bemg ,consonant to the English practiCe of the co~stitution, the doctrine that a government, del:ated'upon a single question, must necessarily resrgn office. . So far is it from being the case, that ~~rdly a sessiOn passes, in which the Government, rf not actually defeated by a vote in the House, is not compelled to avoid defeat, by sufiering measures to drop which have been introduced by them as a Government. I will onlv mention one

3P •

instance, among a hundred similar which might be adduced. In the session before last, a Bill was introduced, for altering the whole ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the country. It passed a second reading, hut it was so manifest that, of those who supported it, a great majority considered some of its leading provisions highly objectionable, that it was not attempted to carry it any further. Last year, another Bill, on the same subject, but omitting several of the provisions to which the greatest objections had been taken, was introduced, but was equally unsuccessful ; and, in the present session, a Bill, almost similar to the first, has been introduced, in the House of Lords, by Lord Cot­tenham, has passed, almost without a dissentient voice, and will, just as certainly, never pass the House of Commons. I might mention many other instances; but the principle, in this coun­try is so perfectly understood, that no single measure can produce the necessary resignation of the Government. And, .if this be the case in England, much mbre is it necessary that it should be so in Canada, where the union and consolida· tion of parties is less dist,inct, and where the bonds which unite public ,tnen together are so much more feeble. In suth a state" of public affairs, open questions ougl}t to be much more freely per­mitted. 'When diil\}rence of opinion: exists in the Executive Coun~il, every sacrifice, short of the sacrifice of persoa,1l honor, should be made, by the members, for the purpose of securing public co-operation ; and, when they are united ·i:a opinion, no defeat should induce them to surren· der their offices, which are a plJbli(l trllSt, n11less they are satisfied that it has become "impmssihle for them to carry on the Government,cJ111d that there is a reasonable prospect of its being car,1t:l.~ on by others, consistently with the ob~J>:li~ · binding on. the colony towards the Crown."' •. ,: .. "'

1'-.,.ow, that is precisely the cours!l whi~h:the Government propose to adopt in this eais~.: .

Mr. PRING: I rise, sir, to n:iov:e :tlle adjournment of the House, and, in doing !ID', I wish to take the opportunity of offering a few remarks upon the course which I con­sider, and I believ:e those honorable members who act with me also consider, is the proper course for this House to adopt. We have now had distinctly stated by the honorable the Premier what course the Government intend to pursue ; and I am not surprised at the statement made by that honorable gen- • tleman. But, sir, I think that, considering the position in which the Government stand at the present moment, in consequence of the division of last night, this House, and espe­cially honorable members on this side, should be allowed some little time, at all events, to consider the line of conduct which they may think. it desirable to adopt upon the present occas10n: The honorable gentleman at the head of the Government has quoted certain precedents, which I dare say are perfectly correct, as far as they go. I listened atten­tively to him, and I have no doubt that the reasons urged by the writer of the letter to which he referred were perfectly sound. But I question very much whether the Gov­ernment alluded to in that correspondence was in the same position as the Government

4H8 Ministerial Explanation. [ASSEMBLY.] Ministeril!l ;E.vplanation.

of this colony is placed at this juncture. In the first place, I would remark that the Gov­ernment pledged themselves to stand or fall by the Land Bill which they introduced, and therefore I contend that they are not in a similar position to the Government referred to by the writer of the letter from which the honorable the Premier has quoted an extract. I must confess that I was not surprised to hear the honorable gentle­man state that the Government were not actuated by a desire to retain office, after the absolute avowal m:ade by him on the second reading .of the Bill, and upon many subse­quent occasions, that the Government would stand or fall by that measure. It is per­fectly clear that the Government suffered a signal and unmistakeable defeat last night­and although I do not mean to say that the course they then proposed to adopt was . not the best they could have pursued, or th.at this House ought not to.-.J,cquiesce in it; I do think that honorableine:i,nbers who sat on the Opposition benches Uist !'lvening should have an opportunity of co~l'!ide:ring whether they will accede to that proposal,:or take other steps which may appear adv~able under the ciri}Jlmstances. It is impo!:l!lible that such ~.eps uan be t!llken at thC'~present moment, lll!iu :Under ·existing circumstances I can not s'el'} that any .benefit will arise from pro­~e~df;ng Jwith f,ue business of the House this td'.Ji!lrritlon: :I: think honorable members on .tfl:~~ side of the House should have some little tilJ1e to consider the course which they oupht to pursue ; and I think I may safely o:.,y that a short adjournment until to-morrow will be productive of great benefit. I have no desire to delay the business of the country, but I say it is only fair that, if the honorable the Premier required time to enable him to consult his colleagues f.IS to the course which the Government, being in the minority, should adopt, those honorable members who form the ·majority should, under existing circumstances, and looking to the present state of the colony, also be afforded an opportunity of considering the course which they should pursue. Because, if any action be taken by the Opposition­any hasty step-it might be a subject of regret hereafter. I do not think, therefore, that I am asking too much of this House when I ask for a short adjournment, until three o'clock to-morrow afternoon; in order that honorable members, instead of coming to a hasty decision, may calmly and delibe­ratdy take into consideration the course which, under an the circumstances, and in view of the somewhat extraordinary position in which the House is placed, will be of the greatest advantage to "'the country. I now move that this House do adjourn until to-morrow, at three o'clock.

The SPEAKER. : I think it is hardly competent for the honorable member to make a motion in that form : he cannot move that the House adjourn until to-

morrow. He should move simply the adjournment of the House.

·The SECRETARY FOR LANDS AND WORKS : Sir-Although the honorable member, who has just sat down, has had as much time to consider the course, which he may think it right to pursue, as the Government have had, yet, if I am to understand that the opinion which that honorable member has expressed is the opinion of the other honorable members on his side of the House, I can only say that the Government will offer no objection to the adjournment which he has asked for.

1\tlr. RAFF: I must say that I am not inclined to support the proposal made by the honorable member for Ipswich, 1\tlr. Pring. If the consideration of the Land Bill had been still going on, I could have understood that ·there was good reason for moving the adjournment of the House. But, as that is not the case, I do not see why we should not 'proceed with the business on the paper; and, it appears to me that honorable members on this side of the House will have ample time to consider any step they may desire· to take, after we have got rid of, at least, a portion of the business now before us. If any honorable member has a propo­sition to make, and will bring it forward to-morrow; I shall be glad to express my opinion upon it then, and, I have no doubt, other honorable members will do the same. In the meantime, I can see no reason why we should not proceed with the business on

. the paper. 1\tlr. DALRYMPLE: Sir-As the honorable

gentleman at the head of the Government has just stated that honorable members on this side of the House have had as much time to consider this matter as the honor­able members who sit on the Government benches, I beg to infof'm the House-and, indeed, the House must be perfectly aware of the fact-that honorable members on this side have been, up to the present moment, entirely ignorant of the course which the Government intended to pursue.· I say, therefore, that we have not had that time for considering the question which, under existing circuinstanres, ought to. have been afforded to us. I was very glad to hear that the honorable the Premier did not o'Jfer any opposition to the motion of the honor­able member for Ipswich, 1\tlr. Pring, and I trust other honorable members will grant to the majorit;r in tl;jls House t~e o~por~unity of cons1dermg the ·course whJCh, m vww of the peculiar position in which this House and the colony is now placed, they have a right to expect. I was sorry to hear the honorable member for North Brisbane, Mr .. Raff, express an opinion adverse to that propositi.on ; but I think that honorable member, upon further consideration, will see the propriety of affording us time to give the matter the consideration which its · importance demands. To attempt to proceed with the business on the paper, with the

Ministerial Expl@tation. [11 JULY.] 499

feeling which at present exists in the House, made by the honorable member for Ipswich~ would, in my opinion, be extremely inju- on behalf of the honorable members opposite, dicious.. The present .feeling entertained I think the House might 'allow the matter by honorable members on this side of the to proceed, as has been agreed upon by the House-I say it distinctly-is one of want two principal persons concerned. I do not of confidence in the Ministry; and, while think it unreasonable to ask for some little that feeling exists, I do think we ought to time to consider the course to be pursued, have time to consider the proper . course to because, of course, it will be competent for adopt, and not to proceed any further with the honorable members who make that the business of the country. We gave the request to take some decisive action, if they Ministry last night time for consideration ; think it desirable to do so. I merely wish and, I repeat, it is only fair that we should to state that I concur in what the honorable have the same opportunity accorded to us. the Premier has stated to be his policy. I I shall, . therefore, support the motion for think we had better. not procee41 with the adjournment. Land Bill ; becaus~, looking to· the division

Mr. PUGH : I wish to call the attention of of last night, it does not appear to nie that honorable members to the fact that, upon we can do so in a satisfactory manner. I looking at the business epaper, I can find no feel that a dissolution :of Parliameni-'-a Crown Lands Sales Bill at al1.; it has course which I shall resist to the uttermost vanished altogether. "' -,-would be very unsatisfactory, until pur

The SPEAKER : The honorable member finances are in a better state. I think it is ' must be aware that it could not be upon the expedient and politic for the present · to

paper. The Chairman of Committees having retain the Government in office, rather than, reported no progress, the consideration of the by bringing about a dissolution, to cause· a Bill is no~ an order of the day. confusion in the state of affairs. We shall

Mr;. PUGH : I am aware of that, sir ; but have plenty of opportunity tode~~d~ whether I wish to ooll the attention of honorable the honorable gentlemen. who;'':fLow; occupy members to the fact, that the' Land Bill the Government benches' are .,,:;wort .the must b!l restored to the paper before we can confidence of the eountry, in re~er to proceed to discuss the question. With their land policy. But I gave .rio d reference to what has been stated by the the meantime, to en~er int9:; all.y honorable . member for the Kennedy, I beg to upon the merits of ! Bill f6r•the state that the course which has been roads, or to consider the ·· pr mentioned by the honorable the Premier is placing licensed . carriers on· th'e .roll. precisely the course which he announced I think we have a far more irn:po yesterday that the Government were pre~'' question to con:1lide~. The Ministry : pared to pursue. I think, therefore, that want every hour they can get, to mature honorable members on either side of the question they have to bring forward ; ana· House have had ample time to consider it. honorable members on the opposite side of

M:r .•. DlLRYMPLE: No; the Premier stated .the House desire,. also, time to·. decide . upon that the Government would stand or fall by their course Of action. I shall, therefore, their Land Bill,, offer no opposition to the motion of . the

Mr. PUGH : The honorable member for honorable member for Ipswich, Mr. ,Pring. '''the Kennedy has stated that he and the Dr. 0HALLINOR: I do not object to the

honorable members on his side of the House adjournment, if the general feeling of the had not known, or did not know, until the House be in favor of it, but I do not. agree Premier had spoken, what course the with the reasons assigned for it. The honor­Government intended to pursue; but I pub able member for Kennedy has stated, that it to the House, whether the course which he. did not know what course the Govern­the hono~able gentleman has stated to-day ment .intended to pursue.,. I think the is not exactly the same as that which he honorable the Premier stated, distinctly, last announced yesterday. If, therefore, the night, what was the intention of the GoveriJ.· Government have come to a decision within ment. ·

.. twenty-four hours, or less, the Opposition Mr. DALRYMPLE: They have not adhered have certairily had also ample time for

1 to 'it. ·

consideration. However1 as those honorable j Dr. CHALLINOR: But, supposing that not members appear to feel strongly on the a syllable had been •said on the subject; is su. bject, and require further time, I, for one,+

1

that a sufficient reason for the a. d.journme. nt ?.

if no material objection be offered,. shall not I ask, would it be a fair reason for a general ~ppose-the-motion-for-adjournment._But_I c_ommanding_!t_n___!trmy to E~lt forward-that

think, with my honorable friend, Mr. Raff, he could not decide upon liislineofaetion-­that we might, in the meantime, clear off a I until he had seellj. what manceuvres the enemy considerable portion of the business before I intended to practise ? He ought to be pre-U:s, and at a later hour of the evening arrive ! pared for every emergency, and. I say it was at a decision on the question at issue. \ quite competent for the leaders of the Opposi-

Mr. HERBERT : Sir-After the honorable 1 tion to have considered in what way they mernbcr at the head of the Government has 1 were likely to he met by the Government, to .e~11resscd himself not Rclversc to the proposal ha Ye. been prepared for every contingency,

500 Mfn!sttrial EXJ:Jlanation.. [ASSEMBLY.] Ministwial E:rplana#on.

and to ha:n• decided upon their course this evening. I do not, however, object to the adjournment of the House, but I do" not believe in the reasons assigned for it; because, a~ I have observed, a good general or a good stateman ought to be prepared for every emergency. .

Mr. R. CRrBB : I do not, sir, object to the adjournment, but I protest against its being clall:ned as a right by the honorable member who has asked for it. I contend that honorable members knew as well yesterday what course the Government intended to pursue .. Last week the Government certainly seemed rather undecided, but yesterday, on

. commencing the business of the day, the " honorable the Premier announced the deter­

mination of the Government to stand or fall upon 'the upset price of one pound an acre. The honorable gentleman has made precisely the same statement to-day. Yesterday he stated, that if the Government were defeated they would ask leave to withdraw the Bill, and that they were prepared to introduce a short measure to give e:fl:ect to the leasing ,clauses : that then they would get the supplies voted, and before the House met again he would appeal to the country on the main principle of the Bill-one pound an acre. Tha:t was distinctly stated by the Premier yesterday, an~ha:s been distinctly state'd to day. Now, sir, the only other course the· Ministry could possibly have pursued would have been to have come clbwn 'to tlle. House and to have informed us they . had tendered their resignation to the Governor,and had recommended him to send fofthe honorab1e member for Ipswich, Mr~ Pring, or the honorable member for North Brisbane. Mr. Raff, to form a new M:inistry: That would, no doubt; have been the simplest and easiest course for the Government to adopt ; and would have been most conducive to their happiness, as by so

·.doing, they might have got over a great many difficulties. But they did not adopt that line of conduct, and I admire them for it If they had done so, what would have been the cry? . Why, it would have been said, that the Government wanted to shirk their duties. I a:m glad, sir, to see that the Government have had the courage to face those difficulties, which I do not think will prove to be so great as has been anticipated. The Government are now prepared to carry o~t the policy which they announced yester­day-to withdraw this Bill, to introduce a short Bill to carry out the leasing clauses, and go on with the business of the country ; and then, if those honorable members who are now the majority on this question-and there is no qi.testion of that-feel.§; desire to go on with this Bill, there will be no alternative, we must have a dissolution ; and as far as some of us, very many of us, are concerned·, I think it will be a very good thing indeed. I believe the policy which the Government have adopted will be most conducive to the

interest of the colony, and, therefore, I hope it will be carried out. But as to honorable

·members on the Opposition benches claiming any right to an adjournment to consider what they should do, I deny that they have a shadow of right. I never heard of an Oppo­sition making such a demand. It is usual for a Government, if defeated, to ask tll:ne to consider their policy, but I never heard of an Opposition asking for time-it is quite unpre­cedented. I trust 'that, whatever difficulties the Government may have to ·encou:fiter they will get through them more easily than some honorable members seem to wish, for it appears to me that there is a desire to throw difficulties in the way of the Govern­ment, rather i;han to assist them. I do not, however, think those difficulties will be insurmou:J;J.table.

Mr. WALSH: Sir-There seems to me to be some peculiar feeling, in reference to horror­able members on this side of the House, that they can make no statement which appears credible to the honorable gentlemen who sit opposite to them. It has been stated by the honoraule menl.ber for Kennedy, that we were not yesterday in possession of the facts with which "we are now acquainted-that, in fac"t, we have been taken somewhat by sur .. prise. That statement was ll:nmediately met by the assertion that we knew as .much yes­terday as we do to-day. Now, sir, if that were the case, what occasion was there for the honorable the Premier· to repeat his statement; or to ask .time· to enable the

''Government to qpnsider their dytermina­tion P It is perfectly absurd to say that we knew yesterday that which the Premier has thought fit to favor us with to-day. I have another reason for wishing for this adjourn­ment. I must confess that I do not feel in a position, at this moment, to a,ssist in carrying on the business of the country, because I believe that the present Government do not possess the confidence of this House. If that be the case, or. if it be only my impres­sion, I repeat, that I do not feel myself in a position to enter upon any deliberations which might take place, even upon minor matters, this afternoon. The honorable the Premier has probably had an opportunity of se&ing that his proposal is not looked upon with much favor, and, if that is .the feeling of lionorable members on this side of the House, I think it is another reason for the adjournment. I frankly told the honor• able gentleman that I should like to see the question tested, at once, and that I should like to see the Government turned out, because I do not think the present state of the colony testifies to their ability as a Government. I go further, and say, I do not blame the Government so much for the state of things into which the colony is drifting, as I· blame the followers of the Government. I believe the Government have not carried out their own policy. I believe the members of the Government

Ministerial ExplanaUon. [12 JutY.] Regi,.trars qf District Oou,rts Bill. 501

agreed pretty much with the sentiments put forth on this side Of the. House : there has been no wide difference of opinion, that I can · perceive. But when they find themselves in the presence of their suuporters, their opinions undergo an extraordinary change, and it is only in this House that we find our­selves in such violent opposition to the Government. I do not wish to see a change of Government, but a change of Government · supporters, and, if a dissolution of this House bring about that change, it will, in my opinion, be a blessing to the country.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY: The Govern­ment have not received much support from the honorable member. ·

Mr. W ALSH: The Colonial Secretary has alluded to the weak support which I have been able to give the Government, put I will ask the honorable member wl~t has been the cause of it ? If the Government find themselves deprived of that support which they had ·a right to expect, is it not because they have not carried out the promises they have made? I think the decision which, from what has been said by honorable members on both sides of the House, will be arrived at, will be a correct one. . There is no doubt t!:l'at, after the signal defeat whioh the Government suffered yesterday, and the extraordinary way in which they have announced, this afternoon, that they are going to put up with that defeat, time ought to be allowed for honorable members to con­sider the line of conduct they should adopt, and, if the motion be pressed to a division, I shall vote for the adjournment.

Mr. PRING: With the permission of the House, although I have no right to speak a second time, I wish to observe that my~ole object, in asking for an adjournment, was to enable honorable members on this side of the House to consider the course they ought to pursue under existing circumstances. I~ think the honorable member for East More­ton, JVIr. R. Cribb,, was quite in the wrong when he stated that I claimed it as a matter of right:~' I do not think the Opposition can claim any such right. But I think the busi­ness of the gountry is more likely to be expe­dited by a short a9,journment until to-morrow, than it will be if we sit here to discuss matters in which, I feel sure, no honorable member will take any interest while the great question remains unsettled, one way or the otlier-for peace or for war. Therefore, I think it is only fair that a little time should be afforded for deliberation, that every honorable mem­ber may be in a position to decide upon his course of action. I must confess that, in the present state of the colony,. I should like a little time to consider the consequences which might result from the action that may be taken in tlus matter. I should be sorry to do anything this evening which I might afterwards regret. I can only say that 'I shall endeavor to .do my best for the country. I maintain that the lwnorable the

/''\~

Premier made no distinct statement yesteli) day. He told us the course which the Government were likely to pursue, but he did not state that to be the distinct line of conduct upon"which they had determined, and he asked for time to consult his col­leagues. If he had then distinctly stated what the Government intended to do, that time would probably not have been allowed him, as we should have taken his statement as. the ultimatum of the Ministry, and* nothing would have prevented him .from stating to-day that he and his colleagues would resign. I think a good deal of weight should be given to the arguments advanced by the honorable member for West Moreton, Mr. Herbert; and that, ev.enifwewere strong enough to pass a vote of want of confidence in the Ministry, we should consider whether it would be right to do it. I do not wish to precipitate any action of this nature, and I think, therefore, it will be to the benefit of all parties, especially as the Premier does not object to it, to adjourn until this time to-morrow.

The question was put and passed, and the House adjourned.