Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1923

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Proposed }dation for Adjournment.

THURSDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER, 1923.

The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bm·tram, Maree) took the chair at 3.30 p.m.

LIQL'OR ACT A:\IE::\DMEl'\T BILL. ~L\SSEXT.

The SPEAKER e~nnounced the receipt from llis Exccllencv the GoYernor of a nlCSSfl gc convcyi11g His Excellency's as:,,ent to this Rill.

QuESTIO::\S. GovERN~rE::-:T AssrsTAxCE FOR PuRCHAbE OF

FoDDER FOR STARYING STOCK >.!'ID RAT!Oll RELIEF.

Mr. ROBERTS (East Z'oo 1coomba) asked the Secretary for Agriculture-

''1. In Yicw of letters continuing to be rccci' ed b:: members asking for informa­tion ae to the Government scheme for relief of starving stock, will he reconsider the matter of continuing advances for the purpose?

"2. \Vhat was the amount of monevs clistributed-·(a) for ration relief; and (~) for purchase of fodder?"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE (Hon. W. l'\. Gillics. Eacham) replied-

" 1. The fund is exhausted. "2. (a) and (b) The accounts have not

been actually made up, but the total expenditure will, when finalised, reach .£30,000."

AMOVKT DrsTRIBcTED n; GoVER:liMENT RELIEF, 1922-23.

Mr. ROBERTS asked the Home Secre­tary-

" What was the amount of relief dis­tributed for year ended 30th June, 1923?,

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stopford, .~fount "li organ) replied­

" .£72,110 10s. 3d."

[JJ r. Taylnr.

OLD MciLWRAITH ;\IIXIXG LEASE AT REDCAP­

Mr. ~fAXWELL (J'oo1conu) asked the Sec­retary fot· Minc~-

"1. Is it a fact that an application was made by an individual for the right to \\nrk the Old }lcilwraith lease at Re·d­cap. but \Vas refused in the warden's. court L1ccau c it 1.71-a.-: on one of the leasc5 taken oyer bv the GoYemmcnt from the old Cbillagoc Company?

"2. Is it also a fact that, notwithstand­ing thio refusal at the \Yardcn's court, the ~ame Yaluablc lease was thrown open subsequently?

"3. \Yi!l he inform the House in which. ncw~papers or 'GoYcrnment Gazette' wa~ an adYcrtiscrnent inserted calling attentio:1 to the lease being thrown O]H'll?

"4. Will he inform the House of the names of the syndicate or parties who have secured the lease? Also, if it is a fad that hi-; department have loaned boiler and machinerv from the State mines at ::\Iungana to 'work it with?

.. 5. If so, \Yhat charges (if any) are being made to the o•.yndicate or partie» for the use of the boiler or machinery?"

The HOME SECRETARY, in the absena.. of the Sccretarc for Mines (Hon. A. J. Jones, l'addinutun), replied-

,, 1. Xo. "2. l'\o. "3. ~o arhcrtiscn1cnt in anv new8-

paper or ' Government Gazette.' '' 4 and 5. \Yi!l make inquiries from

State c:ncl ters a r Chillagoe."

PAPERS. The fulJoi\ ing paper 1vas laid on the

table:-" Gm·ernment Gazette." dated 25th

August, 1923, ~o. 61, By.Jaw No. loo. rei a tiYe to petrol, volatile oil, or other Yolatile inflammable substance being rcn1ovcd fron1 tanks, piping, carburettors, etc., of motor vehicles before being conveyed by rail (vide eeetion 134 of the Railways Act of 1914 (Consolidated)).

The following paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Report from the Engineer for Harboure. and Rivers for the year end"d 30th June, 1923.

PROPOSED ~LOTIO~ FOR ADJOURN­MK:\'T.

BOARD FOR REVALVATION OF SOLDIER SETTLE­MEXTS-SPEAKER'S RULING.

The SPEAKER: I have t<J announce that I have received the following letter:-

" Parliament House, " Brisbane, 6th September, 1923.

" To the Honourable the Speaker, Legislative Assembly.

"Dear Sir,-In accordance with Stand­ing Order No. 137, I desire to inform you that it is my intention (on this Thursday afternoon) t<J move, ' That this House do now adjourn.'

" My reason for moving this motion is ihat I desire to debate a definite

1nattcr oi urgent public import111C'C', as foHow-:. :--

T~H' l~('{'l'·"'~itv for imntcdiatcly f·x.tcr.ding the pOwers and funrtioHs of the Board recentl:- appoi11ted by the Gcn-crnrncnt to 1nakc rceon11nendations In ret;ard to the reYnluation of improYctnPnts f'ffcctc:d h~· f:olclicr set­tl('rs. in the dirrction of authorising ~uch Roanl to HIHkc: .recotlllllC'lldations on e\·ery 1nattcr l1caring upon the just 1 l'{'~hnent of soldier ~ettl('l'S in Quccnslancl (both in regard to land .and improYf'DH'nts), taking into con­>ideration tlw fact that such settlers hCJYe been adYersclY affected bY the OYer-capitalisation of their holdings o'rin~: to circum!3tanccs over which they thl'HFeh-es had no control, and also the fact that many of them haYe been placed on lwldings on which (mYing tD ~tcri1ity of svil, insufficient area, and, or othf'r factor;;) it i'3 in1possiblc fat them to prosecute their yarious Pntrnniscs succc~;;;fnlh~ on a C'On1mcrcial ba,ie.· · " In explanation of this motion, I

desirt1 to point out that as ii is under­stood the Board will enter upon its dutic s on :\Ionclav rwxt, it \Yill be futile to dis­enss this fnatt-•r on anv later date. and I am of opinion that the many present problems cormerted with .oldier settlers constitnt0 11 matter of urgent pnbhc i~!Iportanr·c thn.t ~honld be clc,dt iYith in a (·onn•rchPn~,ivt' and rrcnerous 1nanncr ''itltout further dela:·. ··

'· Yom·s faithfully. ''JAS. S. KERR,

" :J..Ienlbt:r for Enoggera."

I dc5ire t~_, point out to tht~ hon. gentlnnan that, n1uch as I lhsirc to allow hin1 to moye his motion. he is pH'eluded from doing so b; Stancline; Order 307. the fourth paragraph of which rt'ads~

''On tlw claY• ,o allotted for thf' busi­ne·.' of Supply. 110 motion. othcr than a nwtion declared to be ' formal,' shall be taken u~1til after the consideration of Supply. ar.d no 1notion for acljournn1ent under Standing Order ::\'o. 137 shall be C'ntcriaincd.·'

Under thosf' circLlms.tanccs I cannot allow the motion to be mm-cd.

Sl'PPLY.

REsu:vrPTIOK OF CmnnTTEE-Fmsr ALLOTTED DAY.

(Jfr. Eincan, Brisbane, in the chair.)

ExECT:TJYE AND LEGISLATIYE.

HIS EXrELI.El':CY THE GOVERNOR.

The PRE:i1IER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chi/lago<): I beg to moYe-

" That £2,993 (balance of vote) be granted for ' His Excellency the Gover­nor.' "

Que,tion put and passed.

EXE(TT!VE COl'NCIL.

The PREMIER: I beg to move-" That £110 be granted fot the 'Execu­

tive Council.''' Que,tion put and passed.

1923-3 H

L!'Gt::-L-\TIYE ASSE~1BLY.

The PHE:iiiER: 1 beg· to move-'· That £21.132 b;: g-ranted for the

· LcgislaliYe ..:-\r,"t'nlbly.'" Laot year the nmomrt cxpenclecl was £21,711. I do not think that Ycry much explanatioN. i~ required 1111 tbi::. vote.

:ilr. VowLE:;: \Vhat about the last item?

The PHE:iiiEH: The la .t item is for £965 fur ·· [Ecreas~?d tra n:'llj11g allov .. 'ance to nlCln­bero; of the Levi-latiYe ~-\ssc·mbly, to be appor­tioucd bv thP Governor in Council.'' That is a ne"· 'item. The Go.-ernment ha Ye decided, in ';icw of i he jncrea sc•d cost to some mcJn­bcrs in travelling. to endcaycur to meet that additional Cl"t by appropriating this sum. The mo1wy will be apportioned by the Goycrnor in Council. and will be applied to certain Plcctontteo. Thnrc will b2 no addi­tio!Jal a1lowa1tcc for llll'tropolit.an members and those re1n:E'scnting ronstituencies close to the scat of GoYCl'lHllL'llt, and the remaining electorates uc diYided imo three schedules, eo which different rates will apply. l IJropose to read the nan1cs of the electorates incluclcd in the schedules to which the additional al!o,Yancc wiJl apply, :-:.o that hall. n1c1nbcrs can see how it will operate. The members concerned in schedule I "·ill get an additional £10 a year bC'yond the present travelling allowance. In that schedule are coutained the following electorates :-Albert, ~\ubigny, Bundaberg, Btu·nctt, BnlTUlll, CarnarYon. Cooroora, Cun­ningharn, D::tlby. Fa~~ifl t·n. Fitzroy, Gyn1pie, Keppel, Lockyet', l\1ackay. Maryborough, 2\..lurrunJba. :)Iount 3-Ior_g·.an. :\anango, Rock­hampton, P.o"c·woud, Stante':·. \Varwick, and \Y 1de Ba v. The Incrnbers concerned in ,cchec!nle Il will rcreiye an additional travel· liug allO\YUl1Cl' of £25 per annum. The clec­torntcs indudl'd in that ::-cht'd.ulc.are Balonne, Darcoo, Bo1Yl'l1, Cairns, ChartPr~ Tovrers,. ( 'hilhrg:oP. Eachatn. Herbc'rt. Kcnncdy, Leich­hardt, :ilara .. oa. :ilirani, :ilitchdl, 1\lunding­burra, l\lnrilla, :\onnanby. Port Curtis, qu, cr.ton, and Tu\Yll~\·illc. The n1cmbers con­' Tl1l .l in sclll'cttd2 III will receive an addi­tiona1 tJ·ayolline; allovnlncc of £50 per annum. The clectora: c, included in that erhndule are Burke, Cook, Flinder". Gr~gory, and \Van·ego.

Hox. W. H. BAH::\'ES (Irpnnum): I would like to ask the Treasurer how it is that the PXJH'nses of Parlinn1cnt. as shown on page 8 of the Treasurer's Tables for 1921-1822, including the Legislative Council, were about £21.500, whereas the expenses for rHnning the Lcgis1atiYc A.-:~ernbly alone for 1922-1923 are set down at £21,711. It seems t<J me that. notwithstanding the fact that we have onlv one Chamber. the cost of running Parliament is greater than it was when there were two Chambers. 'Ye have a right to knmv why that. should be so. The exact figures are-1921-1922, Legislative Assembly £4,265; Legislative Council and Legislative Asoembly £16.276; total, £20,541; whereas for 1922-1923 the total amount was £21,711. I would like tc ask 'vhy it is so?

The PREMIER: Any explanation is found in the details of the Estimates themselves. The Estimates give details of the appropria­tion for the current financial year and the vea1· before. For this year we are asking an appropriation of £21.132, while last year the expenditure was £21,711. For the Legis­lati•e Council and Legislative Assembly in 1920-1921 the expenditure was £21,491. In 1919-1920 the r:xpenditure for the Legislative

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]

366 Supply. [ASSK\1BLY.j Supply.

Assembly was £5,181, and for the Legislative CoL!l"cil and Lc_,;ishtivc A"embly £17,934, muking a total of £23.115. In addition to that, £1,577 was voted for the Legi.slative Council, so it is actually less this year b) about £3,000. Staff incr<ea'cs have caused an increase in the vote. The abolition of the Legi.-3lativo Council has not saved very rnuch so far a;; expenditure is concerned.

Hon. \Y. H. B.\lGES. To what extent is the increase? ~ oue of u.::, ea vil at fair increases.

The l'HE:vl.IER : I suppose the Speaker can amwcr that. There are thirty-eight on the 'taff now, the same as last year. There has been no increase in the staff for the last two years. I cannot state the exact reduc­tion sinco the Legislative Council was abolished, but some of the Legislative Council staff have been absorbed.

Mr. VOWLES (JJa/by): There are one -or two items I would like to refer to. I understand that it has been decided that the parliamentary bar is to be closed at 8 o'clock.

GoYERNo!EN'r JI.IE:\JBERS: Where did you get your inforrua tiou?

:Mr VOWLES: It is a popular rumour, and I understand it i,; so, notwith:standing the fact that the House had decided that the new liquor conditions shall not appJ;;· to the parliamentary bar. If you anal_v:se the turnover of the refreshment-rooms, you will hnd that it is the hard drink that i• profitable and that soft drinks are not--

Mr. MoRGAN: How do you know that?

Mr. VO\VLES: I have seen the figures. I should like to know if this embargo is going to apply to soft drinkers as well as to hard drinkers-if the refreshment-rooms arc to be open only to tea and coffee drinkers after 8 o'clock. If that is so, I do not see auy reason why the general public and that section of the House which mdulgcs in hard drinks should be penalised. I object to it on general principles.

Mr. KELSO: Do you want the whisky reduced in price':

Mr. YO\VLES : I do not; but, if you arc going to close the bar at all, you should close it altogether. It is a question of interfering with the liberty of the indivi­Jual. This is being done iu face of a resolution of this House>, which said that it should not be doue. It is seemingly a case of somebody being afraid of povula.r opinion.

I wish to refer to the vote of £965 for a dditioual tra vclliug allowance' to hon. mcmbces. That vote should be apportioned ou ccrtiiicatr:s ~ho\\·ing tho -actual expendi· tun' of hon. lllC'rnbers in any electorate. 1 atn tV. are frorn n1y O\\ n personal kuow­ledge that there are some members who are going to receive an additional £50 who g-o tllmugh their electorates only once m three years, and that when an election is pending.

GoYEHNolENT I\1Eo1BERS: No! No!

Mr. VO\YLES: I am one of thow in the £10 category. It takes me two days m·ery week tu go home to my electorate, which I do con,istentlv while the House is sitting, for which I "have received no allowance. Yet there are hon. members who are going to receive £50 per annum who go to their doctorates only once in three years.

[Hon. E. G. 1'heodore.

l\Ir. CoLLINS: \Vho arc the men who go to their ell'ctorates only once in three

'ars '?

::\Ir. VOWLES: And thPn some of them go with a J\linister and have their expenses paid.

2\Ir. PoLI.OCK: Do vou sa,· their expense• \YC'l'C rHtid? ~ ~

Mr. VOWLES: Yes-the hon. member's among-st cth"rs. Did he not go with the Sccrdarv for Public Lands to a portion of hi 3 olcclorate and have his expenses paid?

Mr. POLLOCK: I am sorry to say that I did not.

.Mr. VOWLES: I am very sorrv · I understood that the hon. member di~l: I think that he did, too.

Mr. PoLLOCK: I must ask the hon. mem­ber to accept my statement. (Laughter.)

::\Ir. VOWLES: I "·ill. I contend that these expcnse>s should be apportioned on a certificate of expenditure.

The l'REoiiER: You state that some hon. members visit their electorates only once in three ycur:". '?

Mr. VOWLES: That is about all that is done in sonw cases.

The PRE\'lER: I confess that I do not know of any.

Mr. VO\YLES: In contrast to these cases there arc others like my own where hon. nwmbers spend two dtty~ in each week in rhe train-this while others enjoy them­selves in the city.

:VIr. l'ETERSON (Tormanby): I do not alfree with the remarks of the hon. member f;{r Dalbv. The reason why he goes home enry week is to attend to his business.

Mr. Vowr.Es: You live in Brisbane, don't you'?

::\Ir. l'ETERSO::\: Yes, and the position is that sine{) I ha"' lived in Brisbane I get home so rarelv that the children want to know who the man is who com<'s to the house occasionally. (Laughter.)

Stwaking for m; self, I think that the £50 allotted to nwmbers reprcsentlllg cle{)­torates such as Burke and Gregory is far too small. I have a knowledge of what it is to be a country member representmg a verv largo cl0ctorate with a considerable amount of travelling, and I think that those Inunber.s who have business, and "·hoSf' parliamentary duties take up !he whole of their tin1c, giying thern no t_une to {'ntcr into private busin.cs.s----:-as ag?-In&t lTIC'nlbcrs \Yho haye busincs·.('S 111 then o\vn clcctD­ratP~ a~ a stand-b_y -- -houlrl receive ~on1e con~l deration.

::\lr. F. A. CoOPER: Parliamentary ,]utiPs should be paramount.

JITI-. PET:ERSO::\: Yes. As the member for ::\ormanln· I shall tPceiv<' an allowance of £25 a 'car, but that will nothing like cm· er the ·expenses which I shall bl' sub­jrr1ed to as Inmuber for Kormanhy, nor will such an arnount cover thP expense:-; of a numlwr of members on the other side. Aftol' all, why should country membcro be pcnaliocd because thev arc country members'' It takes representatives from all s8dions of Queens­land to form Parliament, and why should nu~mbf•rs representing n1etropolitan areas receive exactly the same salary as country

Supply. [6 SEPTEMBER.] ,"i-'uppij .. 867

n1c1nl r~ ·: Thi~ i:::. a difflcnlty wh:ch the Go,·crntucnt are tr. inn· to OYC'lTOITl('. nnd a principle I ha\·e fon~·ht for l'Yl'r ::-;]nrc I bl'cnnle a nwnd.er of Parlia:n1c111. Take the po:;:.ition of snllll' CJUll1 ry rnPnJ.Lc:_~. \V hen von land in one pn rt of yo:Jr elertorat -\ yon ·al'.' onlY in one part of it, and in rnuny c t~f'~ it "takt.>s eip;ht .or niae \\'t.'f'k to go right throu~d1 th:_) C'leetorate. In other case~ a nlC'lllb~ r can go tl1rough the "\Yholc: of hi~ e:('CtorntP in a da~·. The Pretdicr has JJot dollP :-;ufiiciPut ~o far as I an1 concerned: how­t' cr. it i~ n step in ihe right direction, nnd it ,;ho\YS that an attempt is being made to put country Ine1nbc1" sornowhat on the snn1e .footing- as 111etropolitan rne1nbers. In the past we have not been put on the sarr1c footlng as town Ine1ubcrs; we ha Ye been penali:;;cd because ,,~e are country rncmbr•r;:;. I suppGrt the vote.

IIox. \Y. H. llARI'\ES (lJulimlw): I do not know that the hon. member for Dalby is correct in his statement that it is being 1vhispered that the parliamentary bar is to be closed at 8 o'clock. If it is correct. I congratulate those who have had to do \Yith it. The hon. member for Dalby said there wer<> cPrtain people who liked certain things and other;; who did not. I grant that. What is the position outoide to·day with regard to a hoteikcep _r '1 He has to close at 8 o "clock) and I prc:-:;umc an outside person who \Yants a glass of lemonade can get it up till 10 o'clock. (~uite apart from that, I hole! that Parliament should set an example, and if it says to the publican, "You shall close at 8 o'clock,'. as leg·islators we should do the same thing.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDs' : \Ye have a right to take away your tea if you take away our beer.

HoN. W. H. BARl\;ES: It is not a ques­tion of whether ,,e are taking away any~ one's beer. It is a qtwstion of justice to the man outside. The Refreshment·rooms Com­mittee haYe done a wise thing. I hold that for thi~ Assembly to ask for itself some­thinp; different to what it says the public outside shall follow is doing· what is abso­lutely wrong. If Parliament says that the ordinarv man has to do without his beer or whisky .. after 8 o'clock at night, we have no right. as legislators. to ask for any cxcep· tion to the general principle in regard to oursch·cs.

Mr. MOO RE (.1 ubigm;) : I object to this whittling away of the privileges of members of Parliament. I do not sec \Yhy it should bl' done. It has taken a very long time to brill,'! l'arliamc'lt down to the lcvPl of out­•,ide institutions. Evor since this liouse has boon a Hons'' the n:·fre,hmcnt bar has lw<'n u]wn all night when we have had an all-night sitting·. Kobod.v would think of allowing a pnblicon to keep open ali night if we had an ali·ni: ht ·itting. \Ve ac members of Par· liamcnt \' ork different hours to oth0r people. \Vo start at 3 o·clock and work late. A YOtC' \Yas tnkPn in this J-lous~; in fa\·our of keeping· tht' bar open, and the Refreshment. rooms Committee have no right to take away that privilege. I do not care whether the bar is closed or whether it is not, but this has been a privilege of Parliament over since there has been a Parliament in Queensland. \Yhen we have had an all-night sitting the refreshment·rooms have been kept open all nig·ht. There was no question raised then

that "'>Yhat \YU:'i Eaucc for thP g ,n~c onts:clo oug!n- to lH' ~auC'{' for tlH' gand('l' in~ide.

] objc•ct to a CommittN' of this House all 0ring a resolution carried. bT _the I-Iouse 1\ ~.en a. vote ,yas taken on 11. I d:ti'l? say 1 ~~ t the ha Yf' h~d son1E tronhl" in tlLil' do\Yn,,tairs oYer this qLH tion)

to get out of dw difficctlt.v th,y h,;ve the cleeisior, of the qnostion to the

rtc-fn'shmcnt Rooms Committee, w thnt both s1de.s n1av be ab1u to abuse the Conn11:ttee. l r n1a~: Le a uicp way out of the diificulty, but it is 11ot ''"hat I consider an hone->t \Va= o£ decidiug matter:, in counection with this Houst'. The stand I take up i-, that I do not ·want to sco the pri\·ilegcs o£ tl1is House whittlc'd "'wav. If we Haxt at o!H' ('lld lik0 this, SOl~H~lJoJv else may come ,,Jong and whittle away >LilOthor pri,-ilegc \\"hen we had the Upper House we were quite satisfied that that c:wmbcr wuuld protect our privileges, and ronse~ qncntly there was no trouble; but now this House appears to be dominated by a ,.mall

ion. \Vhen a discus~ion has t ken place and a decision come to on a question, I do nc,t sec \vhv the Hefrcduncnt Hoow-:. Corn­Ill i ace oho~tid alter the decision mcrdy be< e1use of what tho new .. papcrs '.1y. People lta ,-e been upset by reading leading article< iu the "Courier" and other nev,spa[Jers, and t,hey accept dictation from outside. I think that we arc competent to m~nage our O\Yil affair~ 1 and, lvhen a vote is taken in the House, the decision a.rriYc.d at should be adhered to.

JUr. POLLOCK (Gregory): The tradition of the Labour party of giving '·opportunities for all and privilcgps to none " is rather :1

[;"od one to live up to. Personally, I do twt see by what reason anyone who objects to a n1an having a drink outside after 8 o'clock at night can justify having one here after that hour.

:\lr. CoRSER: Don't you believ•c in privi­kc;cs bc•ing given to members·? \Yhat about :·our railway pass? Hand in your railw~ay r.ass !

Mr. POLLOCK: That is not a privd,.ge­it iB a right-it is part of our job. Every man who took on the duties of a repreosnta­tiYc clid so with the knowledge Lhat he was guing to get a free railwa.v pass, and that cr,mcbody else would get it later on if he went out. (Laughter.) If the Refreshment Hooms Committee have decided to do this, I am Yny pleased indeed. It will ho" that at any rate members of this House are pre· pared to accept the same rules which the people• outside haF' to accept.

Ho:.~OCRABLE .'\IE}IBEHS : Hear, hear !

Mr. POLLOCK: If we sa.y that a c tt<Iin thing is good rnough for the man outside in re(iard to social habits. it ought lo be good enough for us inside the House.

Hoxol-RABLE :\1E}1BERS : Hear, hear !

.'\Ir. POLLOCK: I cannot understand any ether kind of reason.

Mr. CoRSER: Then you should pay as much fCJr your dinner here as you would have t0 pay outside.

:\Ir. POLLOCK: I have always paid what has been charged. If the charge was 3s. or ds. I suppose I would pay it. _\nyhow, I certainly object to the hon. membe1· suggest­ing that I do not pay for my meals. I

.Mr. Pollock.]

8GS Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

have alway~ had very ~trong yicws in regard to allowances to members of Parliament. l

"·onld remind members of the [4 p.m.l Opposition that I n'present twice

<1" nnwh cou11t r~· as the \YhcJle of t lH' { )ppD--i ti(,,; !:1Pl1lber~ }Hlt to g..._~-, her. Representing as I do 100.000 square miles of countt"·. I ha>e found it Yery difficult-~

:llr. CoRSER: You repreeent land and acres.

:\1r. POLLOCK: And intelligence. I can as:--ure thP hon. llH'mbcr that intelligence is ont' of tlie thiug I do rep1·e~ent. .:\{v elec­tor~ arC' intrlligl'llt pcuplP. as the hon. lflPlll­bPJ 1nu~t havr) riotir·L•(L In lll.Y opinion this alio'c:ance for tra YC'lling is eutireh jmtified. I! is true that I all! to rccein' £50 a year fr{::ll this vote. l aJn in tlll' hight1 Bt gra~le-­which is as it should be. After all. I repre­sent a territory l'llllning frotn Birdsvillc in the south-westl'rll earner of Queensland to l 1 randangie u:J nf'ar the Gulf. and practi­cally ncme of that area of 100.000 square n1ile :~ is on the raihnn- 1 in e. If I Yisit n1v electoratr. as pyrry hoi1. trH'rnber i6 expected to do once a year., I rnust gD fron1 Longreach to \Yindorah. ,Jundah. Stonehenge. Birds­ville. and then t<> Bedourie. Boulia. :Vliclclle­ton. l{ ·:nun a. and :--o forth. all of which are at leas't 120 rnilc~ and ,~Jtue of whirh are 500 mill'•' from a railway_ If it is the pDpulnr be llcf that mo:ubc:1'5 of Parlianwnt arc" aJlnwed ~o :lf> n l1llJPll::aiion for travelling in thPir Plertoratt T want to say that that has nPvC'r lH:en tl1c case. For 'the benefit uf pt'nph" nut.;;;id( this Chamber, I would r0miud them that pven- member of Parlia­ntent ·who t'l'Jtn!SPnts ~{ country seat is-at lea-.t in th~' circnnht~nces in whi-ch I mn placf'd-£200 a ;;car worse off thau a city lllL·Inbr:r. Afte-r all. eYPI'Y nublic servant g0t8- an nllo\Y~lJ{'t' \Yhen hC i; trnvc1liag on StatP lnuinP~"- [f u lnnd nu1ger nr ,E1Y otlll'r (1fficia! (JF the public is out on dnty aw.n front h(•n1c or to use a rnotor-c~nr t(; ckt Gnvcrttlli('llt \York. he l'('Ceivc;;; 1:ot o·dv rhP nc·tual car fare-or boat. traiu. c1· cOach fan'. <F the ea::-c- n1aY lw--Lut a1:-.c; an cnn--of-po-ckc1 allcnnlnf'c- ~f front £1 1~~. }Jl~'l' da-.· up1vart1:-.. ~Iernbers of Parliq arc not ""f'ttino· Yl'rv 111nd1 if theY .f!d per an~u 11. ~ Tlw" onl)' com-plaint I have to 1nake i:-; tha1- the Prentier ha~ 11ot done the tlJin~- on the ~cale he' ought to huYc adopteJ. T a,n inc·lined to n~ree "·ith tlw !Jon. member for Dalbv thot hon. members should be allcnYNl to ~uitc out a ,-otwher fer their actual ex 1lcnsc-s by n1otor­car. I do not \Yant an~ bOtel E'XllCnscs. I dn not want the GoY('rnnlent to pay any­thing but the cost of my transit when I go to thr' towns iu my electorate on public bu,ine". I v ant to sec the people there. and the'\- \Yant to s0c 111c-it is of n1utual :J(h-antage. ~o one start~ to go to Boulia or B<''louric in the hot weather on a holida:,' trip. If he doPs, he is apt to be disap­pointed before he g-ets back. But. if he does. it is onh' fair that he should be recouped for his out-of-pocket expenses and put on tlw same footing a' a city member. Even in thi~, n1Iowanec. however. there has heen no suggestion to that effect. The Premier ha, merely a!leYiated our position to smne t~xtent. In ordinarv years I shall be at lea et £100 out ·of· pocket, even after the receipt of thiB allowance, and at election times a long way worse off than that. I cannot understand the hon. nwmber for Dalby objecting to this

jJfr. Pollock.

allowance, because in the Federal f'ountry part;/s policy speech I llncl this clear yro­Honneelnent as tu what thc-v th1nk 1s a fair thing- ·

"We stand for the fixing of Parlia­llL'ntar,- :--alaric.s on a flat rate under th0 {'o·n~ri1ntion, with a ~pecial living allowance ba~{c'd up0n the geographical ;::;.it:u:tion nf tht• clc~..'tornte in relation to the ~('nt of goY{'l'JHnc'nt. This IH' fpel is the onh- \Vi:lY in ~" hich thr' ]WPsent

difficulty ,;£ tting tlw lwst caudiclates ftont tllC' fart1Jc~t ·distant from the capital can be overcon1e.''

I. too. t!tink that is a fair thing. After all. I arn sati~fiPd that tnf'tnl:,Prs <Jf Parlia­JtlCtlt ac'r not r10rtr{l to take ju~t whnteyer is thrown at them. I think they haYe .~on1f' right:"-llOt priYilegc~--just likP other p(~ople in the country.

While I ::uu on this quo<tion. it i'> jmt a:-; ·well to l'L·Itlind hon. lllPmbers- -and per­haiH3 the public outside ought to kno\V too­that the position is somewhat confused_ by the allowance whic·h l\Iinisters rcee1ve. Ministers do r2eeiYe all their travelling Pxpenscs ancl an allowance on~r and ahov:~ them. :'\o one is objecting to that. but It ::-cc'm:-; to be popularly ~tippose{l outside that prinlte mr!nbcr-s reccivP the san1e allo\Yance. I1H•ru is no tl'uth in that supposition. and i i time tho public realised that members IYho a1·c awwv front hon1e !wve to bear the \Yholf' cnst <.)f their traYelli!1~ then1selves. After all, a man on £475 a year. who has n wife an cl t!uc- or four children, would Cnd it practically irnpns3iLle to l'Cprc~·::nt ;~ const in.1cnc_\- Lir.lc .. ~ lH' hcl d 30n.Jc (lt h(T incotnc.

?.Ir. CoRSER: How F, this going to help; iP

?.Ir. l'OLLOCK: [t I' g·oing- to lv'lp those who are 5:ituntcd a I am ::-itnatc{_L The hon~ mrn1bcr for Conk and the hnn. nwrnber for Burkc n']H"(.'!'3Cnt n1orc tr'rr1tor.\· than tile whoif> of the nH:-n1bers of thP Country part~L Tln'\' lT rC':;..c>nt c>lf:'cton-1tcs that are :.-:;jtuated a lo.:1g way fro!'l a railwJ.y. and, afte~ all~ J'rop1t? in towns 200 n1ilr-s fron1 a. raihYaT lH1 Y0 j nst as nntch ri g:ht to set:: theu repre­~cni ahYc as ·p0ople who liYc in towns clo~e 10 the "'at of g-oYPrnment. and the only logical condu~ion i;:;; to give f'Yery nH'Inber 1he ri·;ht td ~rC't out anwng thcrr1, ancl money i' the- only thing that will giw them that ri(rht. Thr alloYiance IS on]v a fleabite. and 1~ "11ot near1y enough to covf.r the cxpenBc.

?.Ir. KELSO (Tundah): I am very )Ilea,ed to hf'ar the deciBion of the Parliamentary Refrc,hment Rooms Committee. There seemed to be a great difference of o.ninion when I moved a motion that the parhamen­tarv bar shc.uld be closed at 8 o'clock. It was said that the motion applied to the Parliamentarv Refreshment Rooms entirely, but we were" dealing with the Liquor Act _\mendment Bill. and I naturally thought that the provision would apply only to liqnor. However. the members forming the Refreshment Rooms Committee have thought over the matter in the meantime. and evi­dently the arguments I used have had some influence. or it mav be they have been influenced lw eomPthing which appeared in the "Courier "-I do not know whether hon. n1embers oppo::;ite are open to influenC'e from the "Courier." The "Courier" a('tu­ally broke out into prose verse a little while

[6 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 869

J.go nn this ~.ubjoct. and. I propo.;;c to read a. few line::: to cmphasis0 -what I sa~T __ _

" Suspicion now begins to haLlllt the mimJs of those \\hO sit for districts handy to the• House-thev do not like it a bit! \Yhy, half of \Yynnum will go np. expect­ing chinks and ) <11'115. say. shortly after 8 o'clock. \Yith \V alter Hcnrv Barnes: And lw is a genNous. ma"n. \Yhat struggles there yyoulcl be betwpen the priucip!P~ hP holds and hospitullteP ~ Bill Bcrtran1; ioo, ·would be fair gaine­his ~cat being ·on the ::::.1101.' "

The argnme1~t ha~ been adYanc.-ed that no\Y the parliamentary refreshment-rooms are to be closet.! at 8 o'clock You will not be able to get a cup of tea ot' c'offec after that hour. and jf any hon. n1Pn1ber \vant~. a cup of tea or cofYce. he can go up the street to th<~ uear<•st cafe and g<>t it. \Vhy should the parliamentary refreshment-rooms be closed at 8 o'clock \Yhen the places outside are not compf'lled to close at 8 o'clock' I think it i:; a fair argun1cnt to say that we should do.<e the placc•s outside.

Mr. HARTLEY (Pit ro.'l): It is rather amming to hear people talking of the closing Df the liquor ba.r no,v. _A Yotc "·as taken in this Chamber on tho question of \YhothPr the pal'liamcHiuy refreshment-rooms should be closed for the sale of liquor. Thoro was a Yery big voto agaiust that proopsal. I am going to object strenuously to a C'ornmittee of a ft''"'- rnPmbt1 l''i of the Houf'e dictating to the 1-lon~P in defiance of a division alreadv taken her~ ·

:'llr. KELSO: Second thoughts are iho best.

l\lr. CORSER: :'\ot ahvays.

J\lr. YowL Eo : Star Chamber bu~illCS:3.

i\lr. HARTLEY: I have no second thou;chts. (Laughter.\ J Yotecl agai11st the an1ClH~mPnt of the hon. ll1PtnbeJ' for :\undah on tlw Liquor Bill. \Yhon he songht to dos<' the parliamentary bar at 8 o'clock. I did so became I conld see that man,· clifierent proLlcrns would ari~c. You se~ problems ari~ing EOW outside. as the re.~n1t of this g o ·clock closing bus.in0ss. PPople v;.·ant tO knm.- wlwthr1·. if there is a. banquet on and the,· buy drink before 8 o'clock·, thPy \Yill be lia blc under tlw Act for drinking that liquor after 8 o'clock. Just imagine what will happen if the parliamentarY refreshment bar is clm<cd at 8 o'clock! A lna1i mav look at thr clock just befor0 8 o'clock. and say, " Bet\Y0Cll now and 11 o'clock I shall require about three whiskies: I wi tl go and get the tln·,'" nmY. and put ilwm in different places in the building." You >Y·onld have the mem­ber drinking the hard stuff and the member drinking the soft stuff going to different parts of the building looking for their respec­tiY·c drinks. (Laughter.) I object to this Chamber bcin!l" stampeded bJ a few articles in the " Courier."

1\lr. C\I.\XIYELL (Toowono): I want to pratE st agaimt thf' accusations directed towards tlw Parliamentarv Refreshment Rooms CommittPe. I am a inembrr of that ·eommitt<'c. anrl I am quite satisfied with the action that \Vas takc•11.

'The I'HE'l!ER: How did they y·ote!

J\Ir. }L\XWELL: I ask the 'Premier either to give notice of the question or to ask J\lr. Speaker.

The PREMIER: Did you have vour caucus meeting? ·

Mr. :\IAXvYELL: Some members of this ChanilJcr arc onlv cousistent in their incon­,istcuc_,.. Although they ar•c qllite prepared to pn;veut men outside in the clubs of the city getting liquor. when it con1E'S to smnc­thing concerning thernsclves. they say. "\Ye ean aud we will make a law for the people· (JUt~ide. but \YC arc not prep a red to a Lido bv that ]ayy ourselves." \Ye hear about the tl:eachery and the danger as~ociatcd with the liquor trade. \Yhen an opportunity is giYC'll to those nwn \Yho po~e as :;;.hining lig-hts in the vrohiLition cause and for tt'tn­pc;mnc<', \Yhat do they do 'c \Ye find tlwm allying themsehcc, \Yith the liquor traffic. In conncrtion "·ith this n1atter. I do like i o :-.cc a little bit of coJt~i~tPnc,-. I sa\· to tbe leader of the Country lJat:t. that· on all oee~,;- ioll"' the rigltt~ of thl' people are lwing whittled H\"'ny. and \Yhy ~honld not the rigbts an(l pri\·ileg~~, of nlL_nbpr..:; of ParliaHH'llt bf~ whittled a\ra;.-. too·: \Yho arc' ·wl' a~ lC'gi~­lator~ in thi;;; P:.1rliaatP:lt ihnt \YC should hayc th0 rio·ht to du:w thf' bar:; outside a.nd kr:ep Ol~;. O\~n opt>n '? I airec \Yit1J ·what has been done- in (OllnPctioll with the closing of the b:n;;.

:\h. Hnx: You are a killjoy.

:\lr. J\IAX\VELL: I am consistent in having yotetl for the dusing of the bars of this cit~~. \Y c are giYillg a bonus to our~ sclYes by being alJlc to inYite our supporters up to this buil,Jing·. \\ ith a view to allowing them to participate in something they can­not get outside.

'l"Jw SEC'RETAHY FOil l'l.BLIC" LIXDS: \Yhen ...-ou werp n1a Yor ·on dif"tributed n1ore :; Looze ': than B.nyon'e in Brisbane.

~Ir. ::\L--\X\YELL: DHly haYP but that <loes not matter. There was not 'a law in existence then similar to \Yhat is in op('l'ntioH to-day.

l\lr. \YrxsT.I:\Ln·: \Yhcre 1s your con­si:-;ten{__'y?

Mr. :\IAX\VELL: Mv consistcncv is bettHr than tlw hem. gelltleman"s. ·

l\Ir. ·\Yr~sT.\:\LEY : It cloPs not count for Ycry n1nch.

Mr. l\IAXWELL: I do not pose fLnd prate as a man dead against the liquor traffic, and one desirous of removing the ten1ptation from nnfortnnate people. and when the opvortunity comPs, fail to take adYantage of it. \Ye find that class of man voting for a part,· that will gi y·e them no assistance. I am glad to be associated with a committee that has the courage to sa;: that \Yhat they think is good enough for the peopl<' ont;;ide is good ('rlough for the 1C'gislators of Qucen~­land.

Mr. CORSER (11urnett): Being a member of the Parliamcntan- Refreshmeut Rooms Committer'. I am not· at present prepared to c~y too much about it. except that one rcalioc' that eYervone in this Chamber does not agre0 with "the remarks of the hon. member for Toowong. (Laughter.) If we arc going to adopt the principie of con­sistencv as de~irc·d lr-, the hon. n1ember for Toowollf!;, we should· do it on the basis set out by the hon. member for Gregory. There would then be no privileges for members of Parliament at all. I have heard the argu­ment put up that if the parliamentary bar is not kept open until 11 o'clock. the legis­lators will not have an opportunity of judg­ing what the temptation in liquor really is, with a view io introducing the best law to

Jir. Corscr.]

870 [ASSK\IBLY.]

deal with that matter. iLauc:htcr.) If the privileges of hon. n10I11bers ha~·e to be takcu away bccan·c they are not consistent, then 1h<'y ,hould be deprived of those privileges altogether. \'\hen wo do that, probably hon. memLers, when they seek re-election, ''ill do so from the point of view of love of their country as against probable privilege'·

I notice that there is an additional allow­ance for travelling expenses for members. I must say that this is the first time that I knew that the. had a tran•lling allowance, and I woulu like to know who has had my share up to the present? !Laughter.)

\'\hat I have Lecn able io get up t 1 the Jd'< ·l'nt 1 ha vc 11ot lwl·n able to .,cp. The hon. rnc•n1bcr for G regor~,' claim~ tlw t he represents ~ hug-e a1nount of lerritcn·L I dairn that I l'C']lJ'f_'''Pnt a hugC' rt111011f~t of t('l'l'ltory of importanrc to 1his Sb:ttc-a.!l <']<'ctorotc extending from J'dount l\'lorgan to t:w Dalby electorate'. It embraces that huge urc_a Df conntr~. kno1Yn a'" the Upper Bu:tnett wbch ;, now rccciYing the attention of the whole ~t:1t0, al!cl one of tlw important larg~) tracto m the coasta.I belt. The hon. member t;ti;rht well vut up a case> fat· the barren tnlcts of Ius 0lectorate. If privilcJC'S arc to be allowed, I cannot understand .,~hv a ra'c ehou!d be put forward for t.ravcliing t~xpcnses for hon. 1nen1bers because thev n-pr~sent large tracts of country as aga.in;t the Importance or the cost of travcllinrr in a~1 electorate which n:quires representation. V•m \Yould not get half wav thronorh mv cicc·torate if you hired a car for £10, cr,r fo'r double the anwunt. \Ve are e"pecrcd to visit our electorates during the rcCC'·S. Th,, hon. ml'mbcr fat· Gregory. under the distribution of the allowances outlined, will draw £50 per a.nnum, and he DHLV onlv visit hi~ Plec­tOnltC once .in one o:r: {1vo y~ears, and then, lJNhaps. w1th a :\frmstcr \Yh•J pays hi; tra vellmg 'expenses. Our. electors expect to sec thc1 r mernbcrs. ltOt In one pn rt of it bH( right through the electorate during th~ f'<.'fi~ion as weJI as at iho end of a ~t'ssion and they don· t forget to wri tc them. If \~·e an~ _going to haYo an allowance .'!Jlpor­trollf'Cl. 11 .o.1rould be on the basis of the size and importance of th,~ electorate~. If anYone is or the opinion that £10 i' cnfficien' for a Jll()rllbcr ln Yisit the Burnett and other si1uilar_ ele.ctoratc:;, extending over an impo~·­tnnt dJgtnct and containing large centres, I would sooner that thex "·ould either keep 1t or gl\~e 1t to chanty. It would not take me a quarter of tho way through my elec­torate. I do not want it to b<J said that I wanted to receive an allowaHce to make it an excmo for another hon. member to draw a large amount. I do not know whv we should be subject to criticism because w'e are to receive an amount like that.

Mr. GILDAY (Ithaca): I understand that ti1e Parliamentary Hefreshmcnt Jl,ooms Committee have met to-dav, and the first iul~n1ation I rccoiyoJ of th"'eir dce.:i::;ion wa_.; when I heard hon. mcmbPrs sa 0~ what h1s been done. I find that the committee ~onsiots of the following hon. members :-:\1cssrs. N~:_\xwcll, King, Corser, Ryan. Kjrwan, W Tlson, and lVfr. Spca.kn. These gentlcmo:1 are clccteu by Parliament to look after pnrliamenta:.·y rcfreshrncnt roon1~, which includes the parliamcnt.arv bar. As a mem­ber of the ·party on this 'side of the House. I think their detcrminatwn should have beon Lronght before the members of the partv •o that the} might have had an oppJrtunity

[211 .... Carser.

nf ~a~'ing 1d1cthcr they did right. or v;~·o;lg. 1 hnYP h\:ard bon. lllelllbcrs oppos1tc s.1y tnat t1tis i a n1atter. As a l:OCinbL·r of ilw c:tlH'li::;, I to giye that an L'mphcttic deniaL It i3 not n lll<ttL:!r for canCJJS at all. It i:-; a lll<ll1Yl' for the I-Ionso to cl0c-iclc v.-hciher it is right or , 1Tong. The hcn1. lltl'll1lJL'l' for (;1'('![01'~ rnac1e th·• thn.t 1 ' c rJJould or~h· take llnto

me priYikf_u .:1 tha·1 1vc giYe lL oplo ouu,idt•. lie rnentiont'd dw lninz_·r~. If I h:ul ID~;- IYH~-, no 1natt-c-•r IYhnt tim0 tho 1niners earns out of the ho'.:cls of the earth they would haye their pint of beer if they \\~amed it. If we, a~ legislators, are going to say '"e are going to do exactly . as certain iJtdividuaL: outo:Sidc want us to do, '\VC ru ·,oak-kneed. P<1rlia1ncnt sits four or fh·e Ut(Jnths of the veal\ and \VC as politicians ;-}:culd be able to g11ide our own destinies, no rnattrr \vhat the •· Courier" or anyone <·l"' ,avs. \re should know exactlv what to ,,,; wit.h onr,elves and then leave" it to the rwtcido public to judge whothei· we .. did rigbt or wrong when we come before th0m c.gain. I happen to have a daug.btor ,dw the dnctor sa vs should not drink tea, because it is injm:iou' to hc1· health. If we arc not lo drink alcohol after 8 o'clock at night and are to drink tea instead. tho docto1· rni~ht come· along and say, " If you drink tea you might be doing yourselt a g_reat wrong." As the hon. member for Aubrgny has just mentioned, we come to the Honef' at half-past 3 o'clock in the afternoon and 'e mav have to remain here until all hours of the· morning. If it was not for a gla•s of whiskv. manv a time there would not br> a debate:· (Laughter.) It only goes to 6how how weak~kneed some of tho mernbNs in nur legislature are. So far as I run con­cerned. I am going to advocate th:lt the bar bc opened until the last member l,'aVt•s here. (hw only has to think more particularly of il;o hon. member who has to travel rnan:o-1 ,iles in trains to Parliament. 'I'hc hA.rs arc open along the railway line while you travel on the trains.

~Ir. KrxG: 2'\o, they arc not.

cdr. GILDAY: In the other States, more particnlarly South Australia, "iwre they have 6 o'clock closing. you can get n, drink and you can go into Parliament House after hcmrs and get a. drink. I hu,ve r,o time for 11-10 "~~ O\Yscr." To put it in plain lang-u!'lgc, if he got th0 opportunity ho \\'Ould " pinch " th~ milk ant of YOur tea. (Laughter.)

Ylith regard to allowances, I am going- io ],c hones~ and say that I am quite satisfied

countrv m em bcrs--tho~e vrho ha vo nwnv of c~untrv to traycrse-shou1d rcc(·iY:)

>vme allo\\·anc::~ There is this fact which l··rs not to be forgotten, that as a cit·.~ mcm· l,l'r I suppose I ha vo got two-th ird.s Plor& I·'"·'ple in :n:v electorate, a little cvor half a sqnarp mile in extent, than the hon. member f"r Gregory has, who has got more countr;v than all the hon. members oprJOsite put topethcr. The case of the hon. rnemb.r for 1\:Ph~in Grove is similar to my own.

:Vfr. KEL~O: \Y.hat about the disl ~nee: That is the main thing.

~cfr. G ILDA Y: I say that the country r 'embers have a right to be paid this allow­ance. I know in the case of th•' Grcgor.v and FEnders electorates it is necessary· at times to get an aeroplane in order tn reach different points of those electorates. I hav• not got to do that in my electorate, but I have many knocks at my door, as city

Supply.

members know. that members outside the eity do not get.

'\fr. Knso: But you ~o h<mw in n Slat· C3.l'.

:!\Ir. G ILDA Y: I do not go home in a State car; I run my own car. EYery n1an endcayours tu be in the same position, but. rnanv n1cn hayc so n1anv calls on them that they. cannot bring it about. I Sf1Y to this House unhesitatingly that, taking the mem· bers coll~cti vely, we arc the " worst do no " poli1ieians in Australia to.day. A Country member of the Federal Parliament has only to ~end a 1vire and a n1an ''Till rncct hin1 with a car and take him to his boarding· house and look after his luggage. \\"hen he is leaving, this man from the Federal House will again take his luggage and fix up every· thing for the journey. Make no mistake. thev deserve it. I have had a number of yea~rs' expf'ricnce ln Parliarnent, and I say that. t.:tken collectively, we do not get the consideration we should. It was onlv a little while ago thctt we reducc•d our ow,.; salaries by 5 per cent. We \\·ere the absolute laugh· ing stock of the community for doing that. If an,·thing is suggested to ach·ance the politician from a financial point of Yicw, I will certainly uphold the suggestion.

I wish to emphasise my ideas in this direc­tion. As a citv member I consider that we should get n,oi·e consideration, because the salary is inadequate to uphold our positions. I have no interests whatsoever in any firm or business in Brisbane-! can honestly say, therefore. tlnt the salary I am receiying is not sufficient.

Mr. COSTELLO: You can run a car.

Mr. GILDAY: Ko thanks to you; it is through my own efforts that I am able to do so. I hold several positions as director of different concerns. such as the " Dailv Stan· dard " and the "~ \Vorker " newspapCrs, and I al-n president of the Meat Industry Union, and get nothing out of it. I do it for the hoPour of the position. I know perfectly well that. so far as politicians are ccnccrned in Queenslancl. the salary is inadequate. In New South \Vales, when members raised their salaries to £375. the Tory Preo,s raised a hue and er\'. I co1:sider that. if vou wish to have good ilOlitics, you must pa)· your members \;·ell. I hope that the Committee arc not going to take i.his matter lying down. Let us have a chance of ernphnsising our opinions. I am quite sure· that. if >Ye do, we shall not make tools of ourseh·cs by saying that we are going to stop the tap from running simply because the " Courier " n1ade a certain af:·ser­tion :vcstcrday morning about some deputa­tion that camt~ along. T have come 1o the conclusion, from what I ha.-c !wen told. that several memhPrs of i he Committee got together to.da:: and said. " \Vo must do so and so." I haYe my political reputation to consider. There is not one hotel in my electorate. hut I have just as much as or more to lose than other hon. members. I stand to lose mY livelihood. I shall sav that the ba·r should he kept open until we adjourn at night.

Mr. MORGAX (Jiurilla): On principle, I voted in fa Your of the par liamentarv bar being closed at 8 o'clock, but I do not" want to win on a foul. If the House decides that a certain thing should be done, that thing should be done. I was one of those who were ddea ted in connection with the vote taken some nights ago, and I accepted my

Supply. 871

ddea!. Howc·:N. there arc those ,,-ho ar<S not sati,fierl with their defeat, and T think the fairest v:ay is that thrro should be a vote taken on the quc"tion, aud each one should shoulder his rc,pomibility. I am quite prepared to Jet the pl!blic outside know f'xactly hovv I YOt"'. and an1 prepared to accept any responsibilit.'' placed upon me by C'Xf'lTising that yoto as to whether t.he bar shali be closed at 8 o'clock or not. I do not think it right for the Parlia­llH'Utarv Rcfrcshrn0nt Roo1ns Comlnittee to takC il upon thorrlsolYos to rlecide a quP~tion like thi~. especially -vdwn, only a t\,,,~ nlght3 ago. lt \YHS do~ided b:v a huge n'ajority that the bar should uot come under dw proYisions of the Liquor Act. It was not a qitestion of >Yhcther the bar should he closed or not. but of whether it should be brought under the Liquor Act or not. A \cLC was take 1, and I was in favour of the bar being undc•r thP same conditions as out­side clqbs. I rt'Cognise that we have no more right to drink strong liquor inside this House after prescribed hours than has any person outside at a public hotel which is paying reycnue to i.he Crown. I take that stand on principl0, and am in favour of the hours from 8 a.n1. till 8 p.m. I am of the opinion that those hours should apply throughout. I do not think that this House should tolerate interference by a committee. Let any hon. nH~Inber, if he ~o desirf'<O>, move in the matter and leave the responsibility for action to individual members.

Regarding travelling allowances to hon., mc'mbers I am very pleased to see that the Governm'cnt are r'ecognising the principl_c that I have adyocated for many year,. Thts is a principle that i~ ~npportcd by the• Conn!ry partv, and it is in the Country party's ftghtmg policy that there should be differential arnount~ paid to country 1110111bers Ih n·--pect to the rcpresc'lltation d the different areas o£ the StatP. I can honestly my that I >Yould be £300 a vear better off if I were in busi· ness in BriSbane than I am at prespnt with £475 a vear and rcpre,enting the electorate I do. First of all, if I »"ere in Brisbane I would haYe my husinc,s in my electorate and would be able. to carry out my parliamentary duties and blso control my business, visiting n1v elec: oratr cvpry night Pit her in a car 01· a 'cab. \Ye find that certain individuals who haYe to ocoupy positions. in certain parts of thP country get a hvJng al]o\vancc; fol' instance. raihva•· fcttlcrs in the country recciYe a living allowance. w.hile in Brisbane a fcttlcr rer0ivcs no livjng allowance at all.

Tt has been a recogni,cd principle by all GovcrnmcniS. and it. is one of which I approvP. I should like to sec Queensland cut up into tl!rPe diYi;;;iow.,. I a111 p]ca:-cd to note 1h<1t tlw Go,·ernmt>nt haYe cliYickd the cJ,~c. 1ornt0s iuto thrPC' cln_f;.;;f'~-clas·- I.. dass IT. and chss III.-and a different allowanc" paid for each division. The s'alar:v paid shoqld be greater to members representing far.distant elector a tcs. who are under considerably more exnpme than those representing city clec· to rates.

~h-. HARTLEY : That does not foEow. A city nwmber has juct as much expense and re;ponsibilit:v as a country member.

:!\fr. MORGAN: He has the responsibility, but he has not the c"Xpense.

Mr. HARTLEY: I-Ie is put to greater expense. Mr. :\IORGAK: That is ridiculous. I have

just a~ man:v people who come from rny electorate calling on me in Brisbane as

Mr. Morgan.]

872 Supply. [ASSE~IBLY.J Supply.

r.n.crubrr~ rC'presonting cit: eleCtorateS- and i11 man~~ case::~ country rrle>rnbcrs hayc to pay train fares back. Of cour:-:r, we need not do it, lmL if we like to be charitable and if a man i~ Lard up and y,·c put our hand~ in our jJOCkct and give hirn Ss., th~tt is our own btwra! That ha" nothing to do \\ith our parliarncntary salary at all. The GoYf'rnn1Pllt are bri11ging in a princi1)le that the C'onntr:v ]1arty havo ou their Ferlel'al platfonn. It i3 a princip10 I ::1n1 going tu :;;upport, and I lwpc it will br rxtPnded so that Jhp rrprescn­tat;Ycs of ('Cuntry olPcturatcs will l1c placc··d on the santC' fouti11g as rrH~mbt"l'S rcpre::-enting { 'eetor~ttt··:-; nc._;_.r the centre of goycrnrncnt. If Parliament were asked to meet at Rock­hampton or TownsyilJc, the members repre­-,_•nring Brisbane would naturallv sav, •· \Ye are not on the san1c 1vicket as iho ii1c1nb0rs l'(·pn:scnt ing either Rockhan1pton or To-,,~ns­YillP elcctorah~'~'." and they -,voult1 agitate for a travelling allo\l. ·1ncc. One c3nnot denv the fact that it would be a good thing for QuePnsland if Parliament were to n1eet in Rockhan1pton one vear. jn Towns­vil1e thr> next year, and in B'risbitne the next 1, C<ll". ThPrP is no reason whv we should ;lhm,·s hold Parliament in one riortion of the Sta tc. I support the principle and I hope that later on the Government will sec lit to extend the ]Jrinciplc so that countrv nwrn­bers will be placed on the same footing as n1ctropolitan 1nen1hers. ·

:\Ir. C'OLLI:'\S (Bo1cen): I do nut want to euter into a discus3iou abcut the par1ian1Cll­tar.v rPfreshrnc11t-roon1s. but I an1 one of tho''' who think that we \laY quite sufficient fol' our n1cals in the parlianwntary dining­room. and those rneu who say we get a 2s. nrca1 for ls. Gel. arc saying ::;on1ething which i~ not true. You can go down town anv da:, of tho Wl~Ck ancl get ju~t as gDod a mccLl ut tnid~da\- for ls. 6d. ag vou eau o·ct in tlF· parlianwn.tar.v dining-rco1~1. o

An 0PPOS1TlOJS .Y1niBER: You cannot.

, :\h. COLLIXS: t say ,-ou can, and ( say tlnt thn table at the parliamentary dining­room ;, not equal to what it W'flS when I caHH· into Parliamc•nt in 1909. The hon. mum bcr fm :\Iurilla can bear me out in that. At that time W<' prri·cl 1s. 6d. for our meals, but Yerv fc·w members made use of the refreshment rooms. After a time the prioo wa~ reduced to ls., .but later on it was ao-ain increased to ls. 6d. ; and rnen who say

0

we arc liYi11g· lwttPr to-day than we did in' 1909 are i"r1_vi11g sorr1cthing that is not true. \Ve arc paying qnit0 snHicient for our rneals. It i~ nnnoured to-da;: th 1 t 1YC are going to be chargPd 9cL for a cup of tea and bread and butt<'r. If that is tru<'. I say WP ar(~ to be charg·t~d too uruch. I can go down town any ttmc and g~ t a cup of tea and bread aud bc;tter fm 6cL, all(] tlw people who chargp that pncr haye to pay rPnt. I am here to 'tand up for the rights and privileges attnclwd to our position as parlian1entarv rcpresrnt:-ttiYC:';. \Ye n.re sent here to do cel:­tain \\~ark, and the people who send us here do not l.VD.llt to ~cc u:-; ehar.g-cd PXC'C'"5iYt' rates as eom)H< red with the price charged tho<c \Yho rcprc~£'1ltrd 1 he pt·npiP in Purl ianH•nt some ~ears ago.

I wish to refcr to anothcr matter which n1ay hP of more in1portance-it is of more importance to m0--that is the circulation of " Hansard." I hold in my hancl the report of the Principal Shorthand \Vriter, Mr. Brennan, in reference to the circulation of "Hansard." I hayc raised this question

[Mr. Morgan.

year after ycrrr, and I shall continue to_ rais<> it until I get aecoJupll~hed ,!·hat I am a1m1ng ai", no matter how lull~.:; it 1nay bP. if I aw still in Parliament-that is, that '' Han­sard sl1ould be :-~Pnt 1rer to all persons making application for it. I \',ant the people to know wha.t is done in Parliament. I am satisfie·d that, owing to the Press we have in Brisbane. the people arc not getting the nuth about the debates that take place in this Home and thP onlv wa\- for us to ]pt them kno1~· 'what takes ];lace~ is to carry out rny proposal. I an1 r:ot saying- that '' IIansard" should be sent to every elector on the roll, hut I do sav that those who take an actiYc interest in 'the goYPrnmcnt of this State­and there is a fairly large nun1bPr in every electorate in Quccnsland·-should be sup­plied with a free copy of '' Hansard" on making application for it to the GoYcrnnwnt Printer. The question of postage may be raised, but I an1 satisfied that arrangements ccul·d be m11de b<'tween the State GO\-crn­ment and the Federal GoYernment for the Post Office to carrY the State " Hansard" free, the ,,ame as" Federal '' IIansard" i' ea rried practically frce. If we can get the debates circulated amongst th<' people, we shall create a more intellectual atmosphere than that which exists at tlw present time. Take 1nv O\Yn electorate in the Korth. not a large. on<' comp.1rcd with some of the electorates in the Xorth-it only comprises about 10,800 'quare miles. The people there do not get to know what takes place in Par­liament in connection with the diffpreHt Bills "·hich arc passed from time to time. There are 1nany pcr~ons in each centra in my eJec­torat'' and in other electorates too who take an int0rcst in what is Leing done j11 Parlia­ment, and if the.' had "Hansard"' sent to them free the,- v:ouid bt' able to tell 'rheir 1nates what \vas g·oing on, and we would have a more intcllectu11l cornmunitv to deal "-ith. ~o lnatte·_· what opinion;;, \Ye mav hold in regard to politics, the future of this nation depends on the intellectual devc'lopmcnt of our people. 'When we get up in this House we >hould all like to feel that standing behind L'.:-> are rneu and 1Yornrn who know something aLout the gO\·ernment of the country. That i-, not so at the present time. I ahYays make it a practice to go through my electoratP every year and let the people know \Yhat Parliarnc lt is doing. We put laws on the statute-book so fast that we can hardly keep tally of thPm, and how can we expect the people outsid0 to know what la\vs they arc living under? ::-Jo matter•what'other hon. mcm­bprs n1ay sa:v, I say that the reports, judging from the din that takes place from time to timP-in m.v 'Cl\\'n spPPch d()liYert?d on th0 Financi;ll Statement I conld not hear thP intPrjcetion.s that took place and could hardly hear my own voice, aHhough I speak fairly loudly so that the " Hansard'" repol"ters may havo an opporttmity of taking down what I say-I say that. taking them by and large, to use an expl"esston that the late Hon. \Y. Kidston used fairlv often when he \Yas Pt"crnier, we get fairly ·good reports by the " IIansard" reporters. (Hecar, heal':) I hope th~ Premi<'r will take some notice of mv remarks. The argument that it is going to be expen,,iye to circulate "liansard" can be put on one side. \Ve waste money in other directions which will not g·ive a'-, good a result as would the circulrrtion of " Hansard" in the manner I suggest.

I notice that the vote for the refresh­ment-rooms has been increased from £1,00()

[ 6 SEPTE;IIBER.] Supply. 873

to £1.500. T lake it that increa<o i< becau"c the rooms do not pay. Tht>y never have paid. EvPryone knows that there has ahYavs been a lo~s in connP{'tion 'vith the rcfre~hment-roon1~. The country kno\vs that. and ever since the rPfreshnient-rooms were established there has been a loss. It has occurred under the Labour regime as wen as under thP Tory rPginlL'. SonlC hon. nu:mbers ha\2 indicated by interjPction ihat for our n1eals. for \YhiC'h we arc paying ls. 6d., we should be paying 2s. 6cl. I sa:· that we arc paying enough for tl10 111cal~ \YC have in the rdreshment-rooms. If an hon. me1nber \.,-ant:-3 to pay any n1ore. all he need do is to go over to the Bellcnw Hotel. I notiee th~t £550 is put clown for '·Library Books. Binding·. and Periodi­cals." I think that that amount could be increased. If we arc to ha vc an up-to-date Parliam0nt, in view of thP nun1Prous works published in diffPrent countries. the trans­lations being made fron1 tlrnP to tin1l>, and the rapid developnwnt whieh is taking place in the world-we arc 0xpcriencing an ·economic changc~we should h:>vP the late,-t works in our library, so 1 hat we "can be well posted up with. regard to all that is taking place in the world. Tlwsc ,,·orks are. as a rulP. fairly .pxpensive. If we are tc do Dur \York as intcl1igcnr]:, ai' we ought to do it. we must keep our libt·ary supplit'd with the best thought in tlw \Yorlcl.

:\Ir. LLOYD tl1r/rin 1/rr,rrl: I e; r:nor quitP follow tht• argumem which ha,; been put forward on the question of parliamen­tary privih~ge. There i~ ~uch a thing a~ parliamentary pri,·ilegc. but I do not think it is a personal privilege. If I am per­mitted to make a sh tement in this House about an individual which would bt• ddama­iorY outside. it if' as:-:;un1ed that I an1 doi'ng so in the public in1Prc:-t. 11y right of speech here cannot be qucstiouPcl in the courts outsidc. but if I made the statenwnt just on the other sidt> of thP har I take it that I should be amenable to Lhc eo m t,;.

Mr. YmnEs: \Yhich bar·;

Mr. LLOYD : I wish the hon. memb0r would allow himself to be sensible once in a while. or irnitate pPop1t• \Yho are sen­siblE>. (Laughtcr.) If I madP a statement of that kind on the oth0r side of the bar. or 1nadf~ it onC' IninutP after the ~itting had closed. I take it that it would be a defama­tory statPnwnt. I carry no personal priYi­lege in this House. and I cannot :;;cc that parlian1cniary priYilcgt ('X1encls to such things as liquor. I n1ay sa~.T frankly that I han' not much faith in this 8 o'clock clo~ing legislation. I arn supvorting it because I am willing that the experiment >'hould bP iried, purely as an expctiment. I ma,- sa:-' frank!~, that I shall vot • against prohibition, but. at the san1c time there is a great deal in the argument put forward by the hon. member for Gregory. 1 think that. to be consist('nt. \YC n1u:::.t put ourselYes in the same position as outsiders. \Ve have, rightly or wrong!,,, foolishly or \visely. made it an offence against the law for the ordinarv person out,ide to buv a ch·ink after 8 o'cloel~. and. if we retajn the ri2·ht to our~eh·e~. we are taking up an incon~r'-tL'IH position.

:Mr. HARTLEY: How dot>s that aceord with your vote the otlwr da;. ''

::\[r LLOYD: mav have been some dis-tance awav \vheu the~ bell rang-I an1 not saying tha't it happened to any other hon. member-at anc rate. I arrived at the House so late that I did not know what I was voting for. I an1 not suggf-\-;;ting that anyw our Phe was in that position. (Laughter.) I askt'd an hon. 1nen1bcr sitting next to 1110

what the question wac. I discussed it quictlv bdore th<? bar was closed. and I \Yas tolll that the objection was on the ground of 11arlianlcntary pri Yilcge. It \Yas sufficient fnr lll<' to take the rhancP and voh) ftr;·uinst the sid(~ which is nca·r1y always \\TOng.. It was eomidercd to be a question of parlia­n.otltar:;· privilege. but on looking into the 111att0r I do not think th0rc is an' thi1: in it. Fur tlw sakP of eonsjstcncY. \\ c ~lJOu]d ai>Pi> the same rP-;trirtions tu our::;;elves here a:-; \Ye do to people outside.

Mr. Il\RTLEY: You said "Yes., a week ago. alld no\'~:· you ~ay " ?\o."

:\It-. KELSO: SPconcl thought, arc b<•st.

::\Ir. LLOYD: Privileges "hich arc in the natnru of cmolunwnts are quire different things to privileges \Yhich would make us immune from statute law. Our parliamen­tary privileges arc not personaL individual privileges; it is only when we speak in this Houste ex cathedra that we have any privi­leges at all. I think that matter has beeH sufFiciently diseussed.

I an1 very glad to ~ec country Inen1ber~ are to get the extra allowances. I do not say that any hon. member gets too much remuneration. I must admit that. if bY somp act of tyranny, some power above us· forced a larger sala.ry on n~ I should take it home. (Laughter.) At the same time I think that c·ountr~v 1nen1h0rs are in a \Yorsc position ihan tm··n members. C'ertainh· \YC are liable in town~ to disadYantages {n other ways, lnti \Yllen F1 man takes on parlla:lH'l!tarY duties he must be prepared for this. \Yhcn I sat in this House on a previous occa"ion I repre:3euted a se!ni-countr:, electorate, and the <>xJwnse of looking after it was much greater than the expense of looking after the f'lectoratc' '"hich I represent at· the present time. I am glad to see that something has b0en rlone in this direction. PersonallY. I think it would have been bette'r if it 'had bcen done on the lines sugw•sted by the hon. member for Dalbv, and an hon. member had been allo'" ed his 'expenses the same as publie senanb. The cost. however. would be four or five times greater than it is at the present time; it \Yotlld run into thousands of pounds if county members were paid on the same scale as public servants. A little is better than nothing, and I am glad to sPe the extra allmvanco in that direction.

I agree with the hon. member for Bowen that somt>thing should he done to secure all the laicst work,; for the parliamentary librarv. but I think one reform which we ncPd ;11or-t' than anv other is in the nature, of a bonfire. I do' not know what use "'" haYc for thP livf's of th<> Archbishops of C'anterbm·,,, in sixteen volumes, and other books like that. There are geographical and scientific books there which have been obsolete for vears. \Ye want to make a bonfirP to ~get. 1nore room and to re­classify the books. At the present time we do not ha,-c much difficult~- in getting the books we want. but that is due to the ability

Jir. Lloycl.]

874 Suppl1;. CASSE:iiBLY] ~uppty

of ilw librarian, "·ho seems to be able to fi•1d his wa,· about the librarv bett<>r than the a n'ragc 'man could do. I ui1derstand that it has been suggested that tlw "other jJ]acc.'' d10nld Le used as a libran. I thwk that 1s a YPl'V gnod jdca. and I hOpe smncthing \Y11l hP do'i1c in that direction soon.

'Hr. KERR (Ennrfrfrrrt) : I think tlwt tlw rhairllla.n o£ th0 Parlinrnf'ntarT, Refrc::-hrncnt Romns Con1mitteP might n1~kc a definite ~tatf._--.mcnt ai3 io \Yhat thf' resolution ~'cganl­incr t}H~ c1o:::in(r of the bar rcall~T IS. It R0~ms io mo th~It it prov-ides for th~-.. cfosing of the har at 8 o'clo-"k, and that 1t IS not in any 1vav similar to thP legi"·lation \Yhich

·has just been passed to the [5 p.m.] effect that liquor may not . be

C'Onsumcd on hrens0rl prclni6E~s after that lwur. If this resoluiion says that liquor :::hall not be COllSllln0d in Parlian1t~nt IIous0 after 8 o'clcC'k--

The SECRETARY FOR Pl'BLIC L\:\DS: It i.s nor a rt';olntion-it is a fact. (Laughter.)

Mr. KERR: \'\hen we started to discnss it it W<lS ntcrclv a rnn1our: no\V it is a f~et. (LaughtcJ;.)

The PRE}flER: It is a rcn'Iation. (Renc>Yed laughter.)

Mr. KERR: The facts are gradual!:-· COlll·

ing out, but the chairman of the committee n•ir;ht tell us exactly what the re,olutwn IS.

I notice on the Estimates an additional £500 for thr refrc~hmcnt-rooms, increasing the Yotc to coyer tlw deficit from £1.000 to £1,500. Anyone looking at the losses which have been su~tained in the refre_,hn1cnt­rooms rnnst come to tlw conclusion that it is time the committee went into the matter and t'l!dcaYoured to find out what can he done. Possiblv this dosing of the bar at 8 o'clock mav have been anticipated ancl e. greater loss. expected. Hon .• members will find in the public accounts that members of the previons Parliament med to spend a great deal more money in drink than mcm· hers of the prc,.cnt Parliament, became the bar ~ales in 1920 were £1,3\8. in 1921. £870, and in 1922. £888. It shows that this House i~ Ycr~v tc~n1pera t0.

Mr. Cou_.rxs : Regular " IYO\\ ;:-:er~."

Mr. KERR: It is a l'<'?:ular Hom•e of '' woo,y~ers" on the ten1pcrftnce que~tion­v.+ieh is just as it should b0. The figures I hayo quoted show how unjustifiable it ie to -ay· that momben of the House are not te-ni:10raiP. and in any ense I Yenture to ~rty that the grcah'r 11art of the £888 which was tC'Cf'iY.--.c1 fron1 bar stllcs la~t vear wa6 rpf·c·i\·ed from refrosluncnts serveLd in the yisitor:'' room. At an:v rate, that is the cor.rJusion I have arriyec1 at after oh"er,·a­tion. I agree that 1s. 6d. a meal in the dining-roorn is not too 1nuch. Thr n1eal there compares verv fBYonrably with what you ran get out~ide. The receipts in tho ~lining-·roo'm in 1920 wl'rc £1.485, in 1921. £1,248. and in 1922, £1.359. To m:v way of thinking it appears that we are going tp suffer a greater loss in the refrf'shment·rooms lJccau~c f'X-n1en1berf' of thP LecrislatiYe CmJHf'il are no longer patronising them. They haye the liberty of coming here, but they are not hn0 very often-I am not going to say that the rcduetion in bar salps is In any

[Mr. Lloyd.

wa\· connectt'c1 with rhat f:1ct. (L<tughtcr.~ I ~\"ant to 'ne~s the fact that the l"',fresh­lllcnt-rooulf'. arc co"='ting the country a con­siderable amount of lllOUP_v, aud \YC 1night \Yelt COL5idel· Yariou altC'rations \\hich miQ'ht ]JUt t~H Dl Oll a uropl'l' plane, IYithout increa ing tLc chal'gc~. It is not lll.)' inten­tion HJ :-.hcH'i' lln'.Y it ~hould be {1on0. l>nt I :;:tH,;gt'.~t to the Hl·frc--hn:c'nl Ho0n1S CfJnlnti1-11'P that thP"' ~jyp tllC' l1lat1er Y(l'-, U1!"C'flll cG;r,id<•r,uion. 'rn 1918.19 t!w ]r-,, \\·as £1.1C8 ~''· 8rl., in 1919 20. £1.300 10' .. in 1920·21, £1.573 19'. 9d .. and in 1921·22. £1.390 g,_ Thi::> YC'it t' IY0 antici· 1a tc a trewerH1uu:-:: Io- '5

for ,;Ycnty-liYO gt·nt lcniCtL

::\Ir. II.\HTLEY: IIow would yon make it up?

}lr. KEHR: For a 'tart I would not permit c·r>rtain g~'ntleJnen to occupy roo.nls hero for 4s. 6<1. a day. The laundry b1lls of the eSJa!Jii>hmcnt. >Yhich arc includNl, run;;:t lJC' tl'L'Inendons. ThC' rooms hayc to bc­~~.c~nt out an(l tll(• COITidors also. Dozens. o~ r001ns in thi:S building arc occu1Jicd to-day.

I \V ant to rnJ ke a few cornments-and in :-;on1e rc~pccts with a great dt'al of p1easure-1Yith respect to the Principal. Shorthand Writ"r. IIc' has indeed a nry difficult task, ancl I ne~-cr hear any COlniJlaints.

Ho:<:OCRABLE ) rnrBERS : Hear, hee.r !

::\lr. KERR: It is to his credit and to r!w c·redit· of his aS'istants that we get excellent Yerbatim reports. Anyone who has hacl ~nv experience of shorthand knows that it is 'a tremendous!:-· difficult task and l"('quin·~ eonc·cntrated r-ffort .. But. it is an outstandin~ disgrace to 'this Goye-rnment that tlwv are not alJIP to pay the officers of tlw Reporting Staff salaries commensur'!te with the dutie'3 thev perform. To emphasise that fact I want" to point out that the Chief " HamHrcl '' Reporter in ::\cw South \Yal0··· rcceiyp::.; ~o1n0thing in the vicinity of £300 a "''ar JJlOn' 1 ban the officer here. Ho ~n~ts £880 a )"e:ll'. I ~un glad lo see on t~ll5 I'Par":;; E~tin1atr"' an Increase for the Pnn­c·ipa 1 ::lhonhand \Yriter, but it is th: Yery Slllall sum of £25. and. 1dwn '111 IS ea1cl and done. he prohabl:. lost that through the r1·tn•nchnH•nt polir_,- of the Goy(•rn1nent. \Yhctbcr he i' lwYinp; it restored or not I do not know-the Estimates do not giYe that d0t:,il. Latn on T am going to tackle the whole qupstion of the payment of tbt' public ::;p1·y u1t::; i11 0LW('!l~-Janc1 111 companson IYlt_h th0 paYn10nt in the othPr StJ.tcs. but on tlus y·ctc·· I' :•mDC·'-' to dea] with this, branch of it. ThP Principal SLorthand \\ nt0r here. who j:-; -cloi''g 1nHk eqnal to 1_f n~1 gr('ntet· than th(' colT('"nondinf( offircr 111 ::;;c,Y South \Yalcs. f!"Pts £100 ]o,_,. than tlw second man in ::\cw South \Vah's. who rcccJYPS £725.

T.'1o otlwr shorthand writers in Queensland receive from £425 to £485 per annum. In :'\pw South \Yales the salaries range from £592 to £656 per annum. Tht> ord.mary shortha.nd writers-and therf' are qtute a Eumber of them in '\' ew South W a],~s­receive as mnch as our Principal Shorthand Writer receives. I am not pointi~g out any Y;articular officer. but I e.m pom.ting '?ut ihat it is mYing to the faulty financial policy of the GoYcrnment that we are uno blo trr r.av decent sala.riPs to men doing very iwpor­tarJt work in thi6 Chamber and to t.he inr\ividnals in the higirer position.; in other· parts of the public service. That hqs bf'eB:

[ 6 SEPTE~IBER.j Supply. 575

briJl(,trht about Lerau..;c 1hc incon1pctence on tJl(· Part ot' the UoYf'rnnwnt and their mis­

in handling the finances of the I·etrenchn1cnt in the:: scryicP.

the t there is at least " in salary of tht~ Principal

\\-riter-n. sinali increase is better than none .t all. 1 regret that the Govern­l~H'ni haYc not f<~cn lit to go iuto this quest ion a11rl do th(~ 1·ight thing by n1any of our pnbliz; scn'ants to-day.

:\h. liEHH ICKS (So11tlt Ilrisbanc) : : "·ith the hun. nlPmller for Enoggor.1 tLcrc has be0n a change fr0m a tPm­

r·'rallCC lWillt of YiCW \Yith rcgn.rd to rll~'Il1b(:>rs in thi:; Cha1nber to-dav as con1parrd \nth ~.-c~trs g-one by. The sarnC is applicable tn the coun;mnity geHcra1ly. The eon1munity of Qut'en~lal:d aucl Anstralia a~ a ·whole fron1 y~_ l' to YPnr is gl·;u.lna.ll~, n nJ surclv bccom­~ng mor~· h•mvcrate. f think it iS <t d~n-

Jlr"ccdcnt to snllmit to the dicb tio:~ a cmnn1ittee inspired or egged on b=,T

rrl's~ paragraph~. l)arliament i;:;:. 3UlJrCU1C' a:1d should c.:c..ercise it~ opinion on thct.2 rttattcrs \Yith O]H~n doors. I am not going to worry about the' matter, but the• Hou,,e w<mld han' looked less ridiculou, 1f it had ac<'eptcd the amendment on the Liquc'r Dill s1 raight out.

Ho;.;oc:RABLE "1EMBERS : Hear, hea.r !

}lr. FERRICKS: There is one rn<1llcr m connection with the librarv. I would like to inquire \vhat use the Lcgielative Council C:nam !Jcr •nil Le put to. I would like t<J '·1~(! an .nrrnngcrnent 1nadc by w!1ich news­!Jr1pers, ·· I-Iansards, 1

' periodicals. and oificial ra.pers relating to the Commorl\Yeal1.h Par­liament and the State Parliameni:; could b" made more readilv available than thev are ~ow. The;-v are l1o!\:ed away in a co{:ridor Hl the: top stor;v of this building. and they aro n;Jxcd ll]l w1th Federal litL'ra.tme.. records c)f State Parliaincnt.::, nnd rccorJ,, h·on1 other Dominions. like South Africa aDd :'\cw Zealand. The library attendants are hope­Ic,,s]y nnoble to anange the litemture of different CC?nntrir.;: 111 any sequence fJC' l1UBG

the room JS not t,hcre. The whole !ut is jumbled up, anii it is impossible for an hon. m, mbor to unearth anything he might likr to know anyt1Hng a honL \\"'hen a n1cn1bcr c(;nH to thi;c, IIo:1se either during ses;:;ion or OP1 of :-,' -.wn. and ha JlJH'n:c to go to the upp 'l'

inqvin:'r a~kjng for him ,ibly iB unable' to loc:ttc

that roon1 Is in pnc:t \Yhat "ppcaled to

l1!C \\"11'-' p·'lratrl'.!llh in the " Conricr ., a [cw weeks ago s1ating thttt the Brnt~·(l (_d. Fc~cnlr: l r tlw (Jnl·L·n~land L1li­v."rslt,': had n'cornmcndecl to the Scnn to of the• T_~ni\-Cl'·,ity-allJ tho Sc11ate lrll1 gJn•n it~ approYal--1 ha.t a HtbjPct for the exarnincttion for. the scholarships fol' 1924 sh,,u],J l>L' a Cl'Hic:tl und hJ·~torical hi'Stor-..,' of tht~ rinancial rda.tion:3 b~:h\"CCn the Con1m~)nwcalth Gnvern­Jl\t'llt and the l;o.-crnmcnts of the f'\tate 1 hat is a most interccring subject. ln;t w~ ns lllf'Hibur:, of Parliarncnt aro not in a P<·~ition to g-i-n.:- a hi::;torv in our ovvn \\o.rds "''J!Jracing. that intel'cstlng subjccl bccrrmc ilh' facdltles are not in our hands. If the Legislative Conncil Char11ber is tr; be u;;:ed. I wo<tl-1 like to '"'' the literature thal I have nH~nt loncd J·ccci ved fron1 t 1H' Conl­mnm.-eal,1l and ti<P State Parliaments and fnm1 the diHcrcnt JJorninions arrang."'d in ~l_teh a \Y,1v that it \vill be lc~s difficult fo1· l1:Jn. In;~·:1lb•_·r:" to finJ 'vhat they ill'lY be

inoking for at any time. At present iho po~jtion is that \VC in Quccnsla.nd arc prone to look lll)Oll tht, Coannonwealth ParliaDH'llt a· b('ing a Parliament of a sister Dominion~ 'lmi not as our Parliament at all. QLwcns­land i:3 not t:ingular in that regard, bl!ca.nse all ihe States 'eem to look ,,-ith an eve of .... usvicion, if 110t of antagonisn1~ on"' the C•}llti'al Parljarncut of the \\-hole of the C'onlnlOll\Yealth, which, in Ill} opinion. :is lt

ll.li--takc. There shonlcl be co-op1·ration bPtWecn thr; f::)tatcs nnd the Conuno1nyualth, :llH.i co-operation throughout tho whole of Australia in regard to lcgisJatiYt) thought und enactment.~, so that \YC shall be able to kno\y \Yhat each i:3 doing. lt ls a r·itv that that of far-o[fnc~-~ with i·cp,ard to the ,•alth Parliament BflDnld prevail, \1-0 as. nlt'rubcr,s are nnr properly equipped to Le able to express our opinion on very in1portant ~ubjects \\ nir·h from time to time arise in the central !'arliamellt, and which are inseparable from ::ltate government ancl State legislation. Tha rru~ans of obtaining that information ::-h!)lJL.l Lo placed before hon. rncmbers as con';eni­cntly as possible. I tnbt that, if the Lce!;is­bdive Council Cham!Jer is to be ntiliBcd, the 1itcratnre will be arranged along tht• lines that I have suggested, so that it can be obi-ainod more conveniently by hon. n1ernber!"'.

}fr. F. A. COOPER (IJN mer): I listened with some interest to the remarks about the proposal to close the parliamentary l·efresh­rnent !Jar at 8 o'clock. l gathered from the re1narks made that the consensus of opinion was that the !Jar ought to be do,od so that hun. rnemb~:.~rs should not have an'i." n1orc privileges than rhe people outside.- That ,,(·t>ms a ren1arkable reason to put forward. _[ thought the idea was that we mig.bt do wmothing along the lines of progress, a~ we were doing with the people outside. I thought that thi, Cham!Jer curtailocl the brmr.s for selling liquo1· bccalue it \\ ~ls of i be opinion that it \Yas not a good thing to allow liquor to be wld at all hour, of 1he night a.nd day, nd that 8 o'clock ','-as sufficiently late to allow people 1n purchase, it. If 8 o'clock is a reasonable limit of time for the people outs[de, it (·nght to be a rca;:,onable li1r1it of time for tl:c rwoplc in this IIousc. I do not know 1 bat. we arc auy superior iuteltectnally ol' 1hat.,re can·~ any rnorc guns than the people out:3.ldc, and so arc proof against the ci-Iccts of llqnor. I think it would be inn as well 1n point ovt that tlr're i~ ano·t.hrr l"L.1son bL'~ldrs the ftlct ihat it is a curtn.iltncnJ of th(• privj]t:gt>s iu this I-Ionsc. The Sccrrtarv f(;r Pu b!ic ln~.tructiou bas a.uthorisL•d t h'C

>1 Ltement to Le supplied to th<, children t ]lronghout the Stah~ that. liquor is a slo\V

a11d he warn~ the children nf the to aYoid it, we allow thc•il' fathers

tmct mother" up ,to o'clock at night to pur-dntS(' thls liquor and slowly poi~Jn thcn1-~L·1Ycs. It nlaY 'be nrgued that it hns no dl'ect ou ~0111e l)coplc in the \Ya.y of a }Joi~on. 1 t may Jn that case Le an antidote--one llt)i:'c~n nlay be killing another. r kno'v nct.lnng allout ihat. \Ye restricted the hour' of sale to lhe people outside· for a verv (:dinite reason, and that verv def1~1itc reno5oi1 w;:..s because we did not fce.J it wa.s a ~ood tl1ing. and ~o fnr a.s this party is COJ,cc·l·nccl v;e hdievc that it is a step in the dil'cetion of the total p;·ohiLition of liquor. at·d that ",:'hat this part:r ultimatc·ly <lcoic·es to f\t'.i.IH'Ye. \Ye hrtYC' tdkC'll the &tep of do.:ino· the bars out::;icle bccan~e we belieYc t ber·~

Jlr. P. A. Cooper.]

8-' <G Supply. [ASSE\IBLY.J

ar'-' rerL1.in fl'Cltun:."- abunt this 1ra.l· th:1t [,i't' not goud fuJ' the r·unlllll1llit,Y If i-::: i::.. nr:t good for thP con1ll1Llllity out.;;idt>, ir on~..;rJt lot to bP good for thr~ L'Ol11munily inside. In C~ll"Pn~Iand there is ln the expl':tditurc in n:aEnf<JrtnriJlg liqll{)l' frmn the ra\v UJ8tL'rial

the iiui . ..-:hr>cl aniclP an '1dckd 1 alue iu th'-• ·or of £1.288,776. and in the ac•' .nnula-

tinn that added YaJuc thrrc are ~OLi.t~!-hing :tk(._• 11H'll r'rnploycd.

The c]o,ing- of the parliamentary rcfresh­ll1Cllt-roonls at 8 o'clock i~ not going to do an.~-th1ug j11 the direction of creating uuem­]Jloymcut. In all the induetries of Queens­hncl outside the liquor interest' 43.196 men .!(le] a Y >]ne to raw materials of £15.710.478. In the liqnor inb .. •rcsts. a3 I have said, ·where tlw adder! value is £1.288,776, only 587 men nre employed. On an an•rag-e the added Yalne of £1.288,776 ~honld •r·mplo:· 3,500 people. I do not like to hear all this talk a bout the curtailment of the priYi!eg-es of this House. There is no reason for it. Let us hpproach the question bold!:, and g·aily, und that \YC haYe done it because it. is FOOd the comm11nit:·. and if it is good for th" comm1mity outsid0, it ought to be gnotl for tbe ( o1nmuni(\' inside this House. I-IcH!. n1c·n1Ler:. know that \Ye on thi., :?ide of the Hmhc• have no love fo1· the profiteer. and \YC haYc done a fair thing to curtail hi1n as far as \YC' can. \Y c ha Ye an ill us~ tra tion of ho·,y the pwfitc•r•r fares in the 1iquol' trade. In the manufacturing- indu:-;­h·ips of Qw•0nsbnd. of >Yhich thG added nlue is £15.500.000, mmething like £6.C'OO.COO ?'Of'.;; iu ahsolntc gro:-;~ profit to the lnar:.ufactnl't"'l'S. aud the balance i~ expended in tlw paytn{'llt of wagPs, rent. n1achincry, a ncl fuel

The CIL\ UDT A:\ : I hopr' the hon. mem­l1er for Brt>Incr i,:;; 11ot g-oing into the relative ,.<>luc· of thu drink traffic. as compared with odwr it;dustrics.

:\Ir. F. A. COOPER: I am not, because there i.s uo rcl:Hinn ·whatever. One is abso~ lutp]·· good for tho communitv, and the other is ;·lvolutd,· bad: therdoee. 'there can be no c .. n"pari>on. of the rdaiiYe value. I would not likf' to tran~gl'C'.:l~ any ruliug of the Chair. bnt l do want to ><tre>, .. the point that thf'rc is ~on1ething n1nrc actuating· thi.-:' rrwvo than 1 he ItlPru curtailment o[ libertv. If

n re going- to n1akc~ any ach-anc(' in ci.vilisa-at alL liberh must be curtailed. You

cannot driv0 on the wrong side of the street, n<J matter how much you \COitid like to do so. You can. hut · ,;u have' to take the cons('rtHC'llC'('.:-1. You {~<111 do many things it ~-on likt~ that you ~honld not do, if you are prPparc>d to put up >Yith the consequences. In coneln~ion. I would like 1o ::.tate again that out of the £15.000.000 added value in other industrir·s. £6,000,000 g-oes in gross profits. or, in other >Yords, £53 in ever:: £100 of aclcl0d valne goes in wag0s: and tho balance is profit. In tho liquor trade, £89 goes to g-ro>s profit. and onl;· £11 in 0YOrv £100 in »·age'. This osta blish0s the fact' that the Committee >dw instituted .. the rPform in this H ou,;r, and thi,; party which instituted 8 o:dock clo~ing for the country, were actuated h•' , on10thing n1orc than a de'3ire to curtail the lihPrtics of a section of the community. It is Romething which stands as high· as thine·,; can sta nrl. IV e >land as high as any count1·v in the world. and with other rnnntr~t~"- thnt i:aYe n1adc adYanccs. I would like to quote eomething from a man who

[ l!r. F. .J. Cooper.

n1adc a grc.<tt adn1ucc. J-Iert_• i.., n quot,1ti'on frmn th(~ "Inter11ational ''-

.. \YhdtCYer the JW>tsant wants in the '" ,lv of n1aterial thlng~ we will give hin~, as long as they do not irnperil the. health or morals of tbe nation. If he asks for paint and po\Yd?r aud_ pate~1t leather shoe's. onr State mdustnr s wJ!l labour t.o produce these. thing' to ~otisfy his dernand, becaw3e tlus 1s an a(ivance in liis st>tndarcl of living and 'civilis8.­tion,' though falsely conceived by him.

" BoozE LEADS B.\CK>VARDS.

" But if he asks for ikons or 'booze,' these thing~ \Ye ·will not n1akc for hiJ?:1. For that is definitely retreat; that rs, delinitelv degeneration that leads back­'yarcl. ·conce:;siorh of this sort Wl' will not make. \Ye shall rather sacrifice anv te1~1porary advantage tflat_ .,n1ight b·e gained fron1 such conceE::-:JOlh.

Those arc the ,,.~rds of J\Ir. Lenin. the leader of Sm·iet Rmsia. If that sort of thing is good enough for Soviet Rusoia. how much moro slwuld it be for tho enlightenment of a clomocratie rornnnn1ity like Queensland?

o\Ir. 1\IOORE : The .-ery rea·,on why we should stop it.

Hox. \1 . I3ERTRA:11 (JI arer) : Tho deci­sion of the Parliamentary Reheshment­I'O._>m" Conuuittr'e this n1oruing sePnl~ to haYP engendered some heat.

The Hoc.m SECRETARY: It is a verJ dry subject.

Hox. W. DERTRAJ\1: The dc'cision >Yas not unanimous. A.s a matter of fact. the deci~ion '\\as onlv an·ivcd at on my casting Yote. I felt therl, as I do now, that we can­not justify t~c rctentjon of a privilege \V~i;h \VU ha Ye deiH(1d to clubs and people outs1ac. I have no objection to the matter being decided by the Hons<'. (Hear, hear !) If the HouS'l rc<Yerscs thr• decision of th0 Com­mittee. I 'hall not t.akc offence. \Vhile the discussion >vas proceeding- the Premier made an obseryation, and he ha-, now informed 1nc that he ttas no objection to the House dccidinu: thi:;; qu~ "tio{l on a Yotc. If ~0111C hon. member, therefore. disagrees with the rlt·cision of the Committee and desires to rnovc a. rnotion, it can be moved early next week, and rr decision of the House obtained on the matter. l\Iy own opinion is that if a diYi::-;ion is taken on thf" Inattcr, the decision of the l'arliamentan- Refreshment Rooms Committee >vill be approYed; but that is a matter we need not discuss just now. \Ye cennot justifv the r0tention of a privilege thot ,,.,: rlPn}" to the public outside.

:VIr. l-I\RTLEY: \Vhv did we justify it 011 15th \ugust? ·

Hox. W. BERTRAJ\l: It will be open to any hon. member next >Yeek to submit a mOtion disagreeing \~ ith tho decision of the Committc''· and the Premier has assured me that lw will gi,·e the House the opportunity of deciding it. Pending that decision, we mig-ht allo>v the parliamentary bar to remain open.

Mr. HARTLEY IFitzroy): I think this is about the mo->l amusing situation that has arisen in this House during n1y parliamen­tfll;y experience. (Hear, hear!) On the 15th August wo decided on a purely party vote b~- forty Yotes to scventeen--

J\Ir. iVIxSTAXLEY; It W<ls not a purely part:~· vote.

Supply. [ G ~EPTE~i!lER.] Supfcly.

J\Ir. HARTLEY: It was a party vote, at a11y Lltf'. ~o Ear as the GoYernnwnt were cmlccl·ned. \Ye decirlccl not to embodv the <larly closing hours of the Liquor Bill i"n the ruh_'s goYcrning the parliarnentary bar.

The l'RE:\IIER : Un the ground that it could L" done by lJarliarnent itself.

J\Ir. HARTLEY: That bring" us to a JJJUch n!ol'e interesting position. lf the decision of the Committee had been to abolish the ]Jar and the sale of liquor within the prcci"cts of this House. then we should have been on wnnd ground. By a vote of the Legislative A'sembly in 1918 or 1919 it was decided to abolish the parliamentary bar.

The PRDIIER: :'\o, it did not receive thg approval of the Legislative Council.

'\lr. HARTLEY : I said the motion YYas pa>Sed by the Legislative Assembly. After we abolished the Legislative Council, surely the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms Com­mittee had some ground to abolish the par­liamcntarv bar. I would like to ask the Premier ,\·hether, when this motion is being mon·d next week, he will accept an amend­IHL'Ilt 011 it to n Uoli~h the bar a.ltogeth(_•r '!

The PRE1IiER: \Yhen the matter comes bdm,, the House. it will be treated on its merit>. I don't care what becomes of it.

Ilh. H~\RTLEY: I am Yery glad to hear that irom the Premier, and I hope it will clear up the position. If the Secretary for Fnblic Instruction, as the hon. member for IhenH'r 3ays, i~ sending out a n1essagc to the >chool childreu--

;'vlr. F. A. COOPER: That has bceu out for year.:,,

Illr. HAHTLEY: That alcohol is poison, why should he ront send a professor here to instruct dw members of this House that thev should only ~l'd\: to poison then1selYes fo~r t,yd;L' hour..;, a day instead of sixteen?

J\Ir. RC·BERTS (East Tuon•oomba): I ver;· nmch Nl the pocition that this House finds itsnJi i1~ connection -with the parliamentary ha r. ;Sm11(' Yl firs aMo thf? Parlian1entarv Hcfrcshn,ent Rooms Committee took upoi1 itself to do.'c the visitor•' room at half-past 10 o'cloc·k in the ewming. That was during the time that the late :\1r. Kidston was Premier. :'\o exception was taken bv the House on that occasion so far as dealing with the public was concerned. \Ye haYe to rccogni,c that, when the que,tion was pre­VlOU~_l~· before the House, vve \Vere discussing thP LH]l!Or Act Amendment Bill.

Some hon. members arc sheltering them­sclve~ under rlu' position that \V(' our.selves-1 assume that Yn' are not going to put the rcsponsibilitv on the Parliamentarv Refresh­ment Room's Committee-should settle this question quire independent of the Liquor Act. I listened this afternoon with some astonish­ment t,1 the remarks of the hon. member for Ithaca when he talked about sitting in this Home from 3.3G in the afternoon to all hours d the evening, and stated that, in his opinion. we should ha n~ the right to obtain liquor during the v. hul• of that period. Is there any sincerity in this House? \\'.,.as there any sincerity when we pas~ed the Bill closing the ho•els at 8 o'clock, and closing the clubs, which, I understand, were carrying on under special conditions pas;ed bv this Home manv years ago? \VPrE' we sinCere on that occi­sion? Is there nothmg 111 the argument that,

in the interests of tht• gl'ueral t'Oinmunit:y-, rh· la's :-.hou\{1 take eflPLi·: lf lhl'rc Wds, I euntL'lHl thn.t it nHl:--t <:\pply to-day to tho action of the llefrc,hnwnt Hoomo Committee. I Yc>r\' 1nuch n'Vf{..'t the :--.tatenlent of the ;:)purd~··r. l l' 'coi;ni...;t~ that in hir1.._ we have a [.!.'Plltlt:>lnall for whun1 \'."" baye r£'-'peet as the 8peak0r (1f this 1lon--.l'. Infonnatlon ha:S­hren given that a certain rc"'olution has been. cmnc to lr.· tbc ConHnittee. ancl 1 lH'L'Stlnled that the b;tr would be do>ed. Ther1 we were told that the re>olution yyoulcl not be g·iven effect to. and that nuxt \Y('ek or son1e other \vcek. \dwn th,. FrPlnicr chooses. \Ve may hRYC a Yotc on the qnestwn. I would like to draw at. ention to the fact that on our bnsines::;;-.:;ht)et \Ye haYe 1nany ruotions d£'aling \vlth que·~ ions of irnportance to private nl.('ffi­ber·:. and the~ Pr01uiPr has taken away the right to di~cuss those queHions b_v d0p1:iYing lb of IHiYate member~' daY. YPt, on this one par' icular qup:-:Jion. \vhCrc we ha Ye said to all the peopl<' of Qucenslancl that liquor ,hall not be mld or consumed on certain prcini·· ej f'xccpt dnrillg certain hours, \Ye are im·itecl to ha,·c a full·dr<'ss debate next week.

'The HO:I!E SEc'RETARY: AgTee to diYide withcut debatP.

:\Ir .. \1.\X\YELL (Tu'Jwonr;): Iu faec of the statemcnc that was made bv the Speaker this aftPrnoo t as the Chairmai1 of the Par­liamcntarv Refreshment Hoom.' Committee I want to ~kuo,-\: if a.rrangL'rnents have b~en nwdL• 1"or the pnrpoS'~' of lau11ehing a nlotion in thP 0c.uly pr.rt of rwxt 1rcek. There is 110: lllng to ~t'JP hurL lll('lllbl'r:-, \Yho opposed tlL' l'f':--oluti,Jn--

Th;:.' PRE,:\liER; Xoticc can be giYcn to-rnor­rov,.

=-.Ir. ""JAXWELL: I spc•ak as a member of t~10 Conunitt(_'L'- ~\ deci~ion has been arrived <tt that ct•r·tain things shall C'YClltualc. but I \Y<:J1t to 1 tYL' :-om0thing· bcttf'r. I do not kn(~\v if ther.• i-3 any hon. gl'ntlPman \vho

that the parlialtlC'lltarv bat· should op<'It \\ ho 1~ g~)1ng to rrloYe the re so­l tal<e· it that ic will be the duty of

... ( :11eor;(• rho i oppn'-t d to the action o{ the HPfr~'~hnwi~t H.omn~ Connnittee,

Tlv• PHLIJJER: T do not mind the House d0cid~np: LIC' quc'~tin:L It \\-ill be a non-party quc~tlull.

Th !10.\IE SECRETARY (Hon. J. S'rop· ford, JI''"''I Jiorwzn): Do I understand the po:--itivn clParly-that an~- conunittee of this I!ousc ha3 a rig-ht to lllCt't and enforce its dcrj·.ions upun tlw }fcn:::e without receiving an cxprcs::-ion of opinion frorn hon.. n1en1bcrs? I admit that anv committee should have certain pO\Yers. btlt it ehould report to the higher borly v:ithout gi·ving effcct to its find­inrr'. This is orrlv an accidental discussion of~ one phase of tl1e EsiimatPs. lllombers of this House are having a privilege removed wid1out haYing tho right of expressing an opinion. To mY mind. that is an extraordi­nary position. ·First of all. the chairman of the committee admits that he gave his cast­ing ,·ote to remm·e the old custom; that in ilself is Pxtraordinar;·. (Opposition laugh­ter.) \Ve are discussing something now that I hope will be decided on non-party lines. I introduced the Liqtwr Act Amendment Bill into this Home, and I absolutely refused to accept the amendment submitted by the hon. member for ~undah 10 close the parliamen­tar· bar at 8 o'elock, on which a division was tal~en. and Yvhich has been distorted in the discussion to·day. Hon. members opposite

JI on. J. Stopford.]

8i8 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

l.a' e said that the quo i ion of closing the bar \Ya~ decided on party line~. There wa;; a bigger princtpl:' inYoln'd in the atncndment of the hon. member for 2'\undah than hon. tnernbcr:. appear to rcali~c. First of all, the haiL gc .t l(_·Inan did not suggc~t closing the b<n'; hL saggcstcd closing the refre:)hn1ent­;rcorns.

::.rr. IL\RTLEY: 1\o.

The Il0:\1E SECHETAR Y: It was a fai>:er Iuov·,_ \Yhv should the hou. member for FitzrO\· or · thfe hon. member for Bulimba have the right to June their cup of coffee \ hen I ha Ye not the right io hav-o my whisky: The hon. member for Kundah. by hi::1 anicndnl~~lt, v.;cnt deeper than mo~t people re-alise, bccansl' bY his anicnLhncnt he \\'ntdd haYc brought thC. prin1tc portion of this House under the provisions of the Liquor Bill a::d brutwht it to the JeyeJ of a public­house. \\-hot; hon. member·- opposite say that hon. n1cn,bers of this House cast a yotc on the quc,tion of closing that bar, they are 11ot rcpre;;cnting the po~ition truly. :i.\lany hon. 1nt n:ber::; ca~t their yotes on the bigger 1 rinci'ple of \\hot her Parliament should be brought under the ~amc conditions as any hotel in the State. Personally, I coll::iider the sugg<0 "-tion that the question should bo decided bv <1 full House is one worthY of consideratlo1:. The mere fact that you n~ight 1nove a re-Striction of a point in the Esti­Inates is not securing a vote· which reflect~,, the true opinion of this Ch<LmbPr. Some hon. members say that we ought to haYc a full­dress debate on the question, but I see no necessitv for that. If both sides agree on the question of submitting the recommendation of the Committee that has been carried on the casting Yote of the Chairman to <1 decision of the House. let us giYe a Yotr' without any debate.

l\Ir. VOWLES (/) I'b!!): This matter was not brou.,ht forward for the pm·pos(' of having ab dcbatl' on the ethics of liquor reform. Thu·e is a big principle imolYed­whethcr a subordinate con1n1ittec has a. rigll1 to dictate to this Chamber.

The HOJIE SECRETARY: The committee should report to the House.

l\Ir. KELSO : \Vhat does the Standing Order say on the subject'!

:\Ir. VOWLES: It simply says that at the commcnccme:Jt of each session there shall be appointPd a com1nittcc of ;•even n1ernbcr;:; to llUliWge the rcfrC'"hnicnt-roorns. I-Ias the connnitteo tlJe right to say that it \vill dose thC' l'L'frcshmcni-roonJs?

:Ylr. CmTER: Or the LiLrary Committee tlH' right to ea0· it will cloce tho library'!

''Ir. VOWLES: Or to say that hon. gentle­men who live in this House should pay the

Loard that they wonlcl pay in <1 JiLt­hotel. and. instead of pa:·ing 4s, 6d. a

day, pay 25s. <1 clay; or sav that th.e mcmber6 nf the Opposition shall, as a matter of nght, be supplied \vit,h rnotor-C<Ll'S at night the ~:ll!le as n1cn1Lcr, of the Govern1ncnt; or I hat members shall during rec•css. except when trav-elling on thf· business of their constituency, haud in their railway passrs; or in a hundred and one other dircctione irter­fcre \Yith n1embcrs' privilegE',""'! '' l\Innage­mcnt " means controlling the refrc;.;hn1cnt rooms from <1 financial point of v-iew as a !tandy committee. inc;tead of h:tvi•tg the whole House deal with the business. The Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms Com­mittee has no right to do anything of a

[Hon. J. Stopf01·d.

,[,·;,stic nature without the consent of this lJcusc, n1or0 particularly in the face of the dh~('flt of thP ftiTlcndnH'nt Hwn•d b·- the hulL member for Nuncl<Lh, which st<Lted-1 quit" agTcc with the Homo Secretary-not that li<juDr should not be sold, but thttt i:ho pro­,-i,ions of the Liquor Act should apply to this 1-louse. If yon want to have the provi·>ions of the Liquor Act applied to thi; House, tlwn you open up the question of pdice otficprs having tho rig.ht to cornc tiJ this !louse and see what is being done in our r 'diamentary bar. That was never intended, '"'d I do not think it w<Ls <Lnticipated by the bo1J. 1nernbc~r who moved the amendrnent.

;\lr. l'OLLOCK: It Ill ay not be ncces•,ary.

::.rr. VO\VLES: It may not be neces,uy in hotels, but, if you arc going to bring the H•.mse within the four corners of the Liquor c\Pt, it ma:. be open to that construction-it ""'Y be an exaggerated one-and police ofllcers may come in. They would have the ltuthorit,) to do it. I strongly object to a minority of the House .dictating to the majority, and that is why I r<Lisod the question.

:\1r. l'OLLOCK (Gi'egory): I am nut going to sit hero and allow it to be said that, because I agree with the parliamentary bar bf,ing closed <Lt 8 o'clock, I have been stampeded b0· any newspaper. I do not c1He \Yhat the " Courier " says. In the first place, the people "hom I represent do not read it, <Lnd, if they did, they would not take any notic: o[ it. That to a YCl'.Y large ,,,tent applies to other hon. members. If hon. me1nbers want to kno\v 1ny roasons for dc,iring the parliamenta.ry bar to bo closed n r 8 o'clock, I will tell them. I want it cl' sed at 8 o'clock to prevent this place being turned into <1 sly-grog shop. That is thl real reason, and I think it vvould save '·Jme hon. members a good deal of money if it \V em closed at 8 o'clock. 'I' here ia no q1wstion of being stampeded.

Ho:.<. W. H. BARKES (IVynnu11L): The hon. member for Dalby argued along lines tha.t were quite inconsi;;tent. Th•o HcL-esh­ment Rooms Committee, according to what the hon. member for Dalby said, have power tu manage, and I wanL to ask what '· nHtnage­lllent " means. It means control of the IJc.u-:e in its various offices, otherwise they arc merely a rubber stamp; they <Lre told to do certain things, and, if they do not do th0se things, then the only way of escape is for them to resign. The hon. member a1 .. · argued on other lines that were alto­g<,ther inconsistent. \Vhat is happAning oYery cla·· of the week when the House is · ot in sPssion? _\re tho Government not is&uing regulations which b"con1e Acts of Parli1_rnent ~l s a retmlt of their iF'3UC? If wo are going to be consistent in the line of argunknt we have taken up, wo should see to it-tho.t. eYcry detail has to be endorsed by this House. The Government should not have the pov.·er to do certain things by regulations.

'Mr. MOORE: They haYe to be endorsed. They have to be placed before Parli~mcnt.

Ho:.<. \V. H. BARl'\ES: Is that not Yery nt!lch a. matter of form? I think the hon. r11ember for Gregory is quite rig.ht in w11a.t he says.

Mr. CARTER: It is quite unusual to see yon twG in agreement. (Laughter.)

HoN. W. H. BARNES : When the hotels were closed at night, immediately members

Suprly. [6 SEI'TE}iBER.] Supply. 879

Parlian1c11t-I Vi·- aS not indudctl anwngst ITlCiub~~rs-were inconvenienced by ccr­

: .. in peuplc co1ni11g up here after a Cl'rtain ltcur of the night in order to get a drink.

l\Ir. CARTER: ~ o. Hox. \Y. Il. BAR::\ES: EYery member of

'hi-:5 Ilonse kno"\YS that '"hat th·• hon. l11C'mbcr for G1·egvry said is correct. T.ha t is n dly what has happened.

~\lr. I'OLLOCK: 1 did not say it has bap· ll'-'ncd; I say it will happen.

IIox. W. H. BARKES: I say th<tt what the hon. 1ncrnbcr says "\Yill happen ha-.: hap­]Jcncd in tht> past, and "e all know it. The l'i'Ol11iPl' \Vill endorse that staten1ent. rrhc cr>uditions that haYe preYailecl in the past are prevailing again to-day. As a matter of justice if we saY. in the interests of the eo;nmt{nity genera.lly, that liquor shall not be sold a,fter 8 o'clock, surely, if we arc worthy of the name of legislators, we sh<JLtld show "" excellent example. lt is not a question of whether a rnan iF an abstainer or is not nu abstainer. No one will accuse n1o of ever having spoken against any class. bm I sa.y that the publican and the man who eclb .spi Yituous liquor is a distinct di,aclvaP.\age to the State. If Mr. S\leakcr gave his cast­ing vote in favour of closing tho pccrlia.­Etentary bar at 8 o'clock, as has been alicc;ed, 1 congratulate him on having the coumge of hi~ convictions and doing what he comidcred the correct thing.

:\Ir. KI:'\JG (Lautm1: As one of the mem­l)(·rs of the Refreshment Rooms Committee, [ would like to express my opinion on the suttject-matter that has been debatl'd thi" vJt,~rnoon. I gave 111·7 vote in favour of ~losing the parlian1C~ntary bar at 8 o'clnck, and I had lo give it that way to be in any \rnv consistent. \Ye as a Parliarr1ellt hav(' I• .;sed a law compelling hotels to dos~ at B o'clock. and surely, if \Ye pas-: a law \'. hich is going to apply to the onlside J•nblic, we should make that law 11.pply to ourselves as well. \Ye have to do that to be consistent. The hon. member for Gregory Hncl the hon. member for Kelvin Gran> scand

·On absolutely safe ground. The;<' haYe argued. ond argued rightly, that .any pnYilcgcs n11 aching to n1ernbcrs of Parlirnucnt arc attached to ll10111b0rs of Parhantcrrt qua r•1('mbers of Parliament onlv. It h '~ been suggestPLi in thi~ dcbah· th~t a rnPnlb'~'r of Parlianu='nt haYing a raih'\~a:· pai':-', 1o bP con~ ~,lsh~nt in his ad,·oracy of clo,:;jng the Gar, nught to give up that railway po,s. That u,ihY<l' pa ... , is no privilege at all. It belongs to him as a nrcrnbcr of Pal'liarnent and i;-; part and pared of what you might call the remuneration attaching to hin1 as a. nH·rnbcl·

Parliament. It comes to him by vinuo of position only. If he ceases to l.Je a rnenl­

br_'r of ParliarncnL the privilege-If :vou like io can it a priYilcge~goes. In corning- tu ·-!w d£,cision that we can1c to to-dav in -con­nection i th the clo .. ing of the parli; mentar.v b:-ri· \VC have been a-h~o1utelv con~istcnt. I \'l'i-Jhlre to say that it is goillg to be a boon in dis~nisc to rnany 1notropolltan n1en1bcrs. I ean visualise the hem. member for Brisbane bc<ng faced by quite a crowd of his thirsty ·cnnstitucnts coming up to the House at 9 n'dock in the evening with their tongues Lmging out and asking for the hon. member fm Brisbane.

lion. J. G. APPEL: The hon. member for Fitzrov had the bookmakers the other night.

J\Ir. IG);G: He will have the bookmakers too. The hon. member for Brisbane and the

hon. ml'mbcr for Fitzro·: ;vould bel only too glad to turn to their Cl;thu,iastic supporters and :-.av in a piou:5 voice, ''I a1n very sorry, but I 'can't 'hcmi for you to-night. It is against the law." The closing. of the b;r is goil!(2," to be a splendid protoctlon, f'Spccw ... lly fm metropolitan members. lt has been arguC'd thiS aft{~rnoon that by carrying this t·c·:.olution the Parliarncntary Rcfr-e-.hment Rc(Yll:' ( 'ouunittN"' i~ n·oing back on a rc;;:olu~ tion of the liouse. I would point out that, "hen thP House de~·ided that 8 o'clock closing should not apply to the parliamentary bar, \Yl' \YPre cliscus:::.iug the Drncndn1(:ont of the linuot· la \V, ParlianH?nt as a body i1s not in ;:~.rl~ >.Fi1 v conc<'rncd with the li<luur la w-thu liqtwr ia w or the amendment thereof cot~ld nut. in all\· wa v he made to refer to Parlia­ment. It' was" pointed out at the time that it \Yas not the function of P<trliament to pass a resolution of that sort. I v0nture to say that manv hon. members voted against the amendnwrlt of the hon. member for Nundah, knowing full well that it was not the func­tion of this Home to deal with the mattn, and that the onlv way it could be dealt with \Yas bv the L'arli~mentarv Refreshment H.o01ns ~Com1uittcP ~

Hon. F. T. BREo;XAX: If the amendment of thc> hon. nwmhet" for Nundah had been accept"d. the police could come in after 8 o'clock.

:Cdr. KIKG: How could the police come into a place which is not licensed?

lion. F. T. BREXXAX: They could under that amendment.

Mr. KIKG: ~o. because the parliamen­tary buildings are not licensed premises.

Hon. F. T. BREXXAX: Thev could come in in connf'ction 'vith sly-grog .~elling, for jnstanc('.

:\Ir. I'LAYTOX: You know something about the police coming in, anyhow. (Laughter.)

1\Lr. K1);G : Thev can onlv come in under a search "·arrant. " I suppo'i·t the action of the Refreshment Rooms Committee, and I congra tu late the Speaker on taking the stand \Yhich he did. There is only one member of the Refreshment Rooms Committee who is a teetotaller. and all the rest are what you n1ight call tcn1perate drinkers.

Mr. ROBERTS (r:ast 1'oowoomba): When the Home Secretary was speaking this after­noon he tried to make out that the hon. member for 1\'undah desired to close the padiamentan· refreshment-rooms unde_r his proposed axncndrncnt. There was no 1nten~ tion in that iustance to close the parliamen­tGrv rcfrcshmcnt-roomc. I want to quote froin " Ilan,<trd" the following extract in contradidion to the statement of the Home Sccrct<1ry :-

" ;),lr. KELSO (Tunrlail): move the insertion. after line 20, page 3, of the ,._ orcL-·

After tho word ' club.' where it ftr't occurs in the said subsection, the follo .~·ing 'vords arc inserted:-' or in thr Parliamentary RefrBshment Roorn.''

take it that the bar is part of the parlia­n1cntary refrcshn1cnt~rooms.

The HooiE SECRETARY: He wanted to close the lot.

1\fr. ROBERTS: The amendment was not d0signed to restrict the sale of tea, coffee,

Mr. Roberts.]

880 Supply. [ASSE:.\1BL Y.] Supply.

cocoa. lcrnnnadt\ or ging€'r beer; it was only intcndecl to restrict the sale of spirituous lil]UOrs. The hon. member foe ::\undah \Yas qnitc con\ t·r~ant \\·ith th0 position, .and knew what he desired.

:\lr. F.D\YARDS (Tananuo): It seems to ll1C' that \YC have rc.arhed a Ino:::;t cxtraor~ dinary position in connection 'vith this matter. I have Iwver heard a dpbate in the Homo in which tht>re was "o much splitting of stnnn as in this debate. I think that, \\'hen thl' yotc ·was taken ln connc<.;tion with tht1 cloc;lug of'1he 1.1dlamcntary bar. it was undcretood that the Refreshment Rooms Cam. mittce had full control. I am satisfied that. if hon. nlPrribcrs opposite who are taking up the attitude which they arc adopting to-day had not known that, thcv Yvould have votNl against the Gm·ernmcnt Dn that occasiml. I say YYithout hesitation that anv committee of 1n~nagen1cnt which we appoii1t should have full power to rr>anage that portion of tho parliamentary buildings over which they ha vc control; othenYisc ihev should be asked to resign. It is unfair to ask the committee to take O\'Cr the 1nanagen1ent of the refresh­Jnent-roorns and then discu'·S this question in the H ousc as it has been dealt with here this aft,prnoon. "The suggf 'jtion of the Premier, put forward through the Speaker, that we :-;hould discn' the qncstion next week. is, I think. completely out of ordc•r. There is a lot of bu ineS3 to get on with.

J\lr. COLLJ~S: Sit clown, and let us get on with it.

Mr. EDWARDS: I think \Ye should stand bv the d~cision of the Rcfrcshnwnt Rooms C.omn1ittee. and I congratulate those hon. IHCinbers whD arc prepared to go against the dPci::-ion \vhich was roJne to in the IIouse the other dav. The members of the Refreshment Room.. ·committee felt the responsibility which rr·stt'd upon them, and on principle the~· decided to being the bar of this House undei' the ~arr1c conditi·ons as rho hotel~ out­side. TlH·y werD quite justificcl in their action, and the IIousP is quite right in back­ing thcni up in their action. If the House if; not prcparcrl to back up the cmnn1ittce, th<' memb<'l'3 of it should re,ign. If I WNe a member of the committee. I would not remain upon it for two minutes if the House was not prepared to support the dc,rision of ihc con1n1ittec.

~Ir. liARTLEY interjected.

Mr. EDWARDS: The hon. member will find it har<:l to define his position in connec­tion with this vote

Mr. HARTLEY: You will fmd that. when it comes to a vot£ in the House, I will defin£ my position.

Mr. ED\YARDS: ThP hon. member throws his principles to the wind when it comes to backing the Government up and voting on a party measure.

Mr. KELSO (_Yunrlah): I should like to say a few words in reply to the Home Secre­tary, who stated that in mm·ing my amend­ment on the Liquor Bill I meant to close the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms. I should like to draw attention to section 147 of the Liquor Act of 1912, which reads-

" No person shall sell or supply liquor or pcrrnit liquor to be drunk or f'onsumed in a registered club-

(a) Except between the hours of six in the morning and eleven at night, on the six business days of the week ; "

[Mr. Roberts

and I simply !llOYecl the addition of certain· worcb to that ~C'dion.

Th, HmrE SEf'HFHRY: ::\o, there was an ex:en1ptiou proYidcd for certain clubs. and :.'UU nloY-cd an nn1l"'IHln1C'llt on 1ny amendn1cnt.

:\fr. KELSO: I proposed to ad.d my amenc!­nwnt. If th< hem. g·ontleman will read care­fullY throug-h the remarks ''hich I made. he will sec that the Yvhole of my rem.arks Ywre not 0~1 rht' qw .. •stiDn of the Parliamentary Rcfreslt t\t'Ht Rooms.

The Ho~IE SECRETARY: You know very >YPil that rhat ,;ection of the Act only dealt with hotels or clubs \Yhirh ar':' licensed. The

1;arlianlelltary ba1~ is !1ot hcPnlied, an~ ~ou \Ycrc trvintr to bnnrr 1t und€r the operatlon of the ~.\.et: b

::\1r. KELSO: ::\ly anH'ndnwnt to. the .'ec­tion I ha ye juct rea cl proposP'd ms.crhon, after line 20, page 3. of the. Bill which we \'\'Cl' .. ' -di -cu-,~ing of the follovnng ,,,ords :-

" :\,Iter the word 'club.' where if fir;t occn~·s in the said subsection. _the follow­ing words arc in~0rted :-·or ,1~ the par­lian1cntafv rcfrC'~h111ent-roorn.

The Homo Secretary. who, unfortunately, was out of tht• ChambC"r when I _made my ,speech, said that I meant the )tarhai;1entary refrcshn1cnt-romn as a "·hole, :ncludn1g the bar and the sale of any ,;oft dnnks. If hon. n1cn1bcr~ \vill look at the 1'en1arks I n1a-dc,

theY \Yill see that they wei:c con­[7 l'- m.] fine'd entire!,- to the closmg of

the parlian1entary bar. The · J-Iomc Secn'tary, during that ~cb~tte. ·-ug­gef'ted to n1c that I shou1d \Ylt_hctray.- tht Un1cnclnH'1lt, and poi11tcd out th_at Parhan1cnt wa::; tlw l11<V·tcr of its own actJons, and that the' Act ,,·as not a smtable pla~e for th< imeni<•tl of such a proYision. I dtd not feel inclined ro \Yithdnnv the a1nend~ncnt, and I prcsun~t~cl. a~ wa~ ~tat('cl l~ere this afterno~n1, thn t the cffect of the mabng of the question a part v rnntL'l' b\· hmL m~•n1bers on th~ other ~itlc \:·a.:; th;lt the:' con~JdC'rc-d that 11 was not the prop"l' plrtcc for surh an_ an1endrnent. If it had bc0n otherwise. ccrta1n gentlemen on the other oide of the House, who haYe professed thcm,;f'lYes as very ~trong prohib:­tioni~t:" and in fa nmr of curtalln1g the hc~urs for the ~all' of liquor, could not consclen­tiouslv haYe yotcd again~t it. Th~ Ho~tE SECRETARY: I did say it was not

the proper place. I said it should be dam.' by a rpsolution of the House.

:\Ir. KELSO: The arg·ument I want to stress is this, taking the hon. g~ntleman at his own wm~ls: \\' e were told this afternoon -and it ww; not contradicted-that this was made a party question.

ThE' HmrE SECRETARY: The question of 8 o'clock closing.

Mr. KELSO: I maintain, as I said a moment ago. that the. point raised by_ the hon. gentleman that It was not a proper; place for the amendmE'nt was made a party question. Does the hon. gentleman admit that?

The HmrE SECRETARY: I said that it was not the proper place.

::Mr. KELSO: I assume-and it is a fair assumption-that the ~est o! the party took the advice of the :\1mister m that matter.

The PREMIER: As notice is to be given of a motion on the subject, why labour the· matter any further?

:\Ir. KELSO: As the arn~nclmc•n· was dC'fPatPd. I take it the matter is now ldt in the hand" of tlw Par1ian1entary Rcfre-hnH'nt Rorn1 Con1111ittee.

:\Ir. H\RTLEY: ::\o.

~\Ir. I{ELSO: If a11 n.dYel·se n'~olution is now p:t ·eel b .• · this House. 'Ye shail be abso­lutely floutinn· the n .olution of the Com-mittPP. /:"}

ThP SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : If the committee do anything that Parliament dis­approYcs of, Parlia1ncnt C'a.n remoYc thcn1.

:\Ir. KELSO: I am ··orry that the S1waker has nu1de an Pxplanation \vith l'Pgard to the \York of that con1n1itree up to a certain point <:nrl then rccPdcd fron1 that po:5itlon. I think that the position adopt·'d by the com­mittee v. as quite con-Pet. It is up to them to stand to thot position. If the House dis­agree; with the position taken up by the committee. then thc;·e is only one thing for the committee to do. and that is to re-,ign.

The HO\JE SrCRETARY: \Yhat ridiculous non­s0nse: That ,-.·ould be a sign of weakness.

J\lr. KELSO: I think the committee did the right thing.

The PRD!IER: Parliament can at anY time m errulc the decision of the committee.

Cllr. KELSO: I admit that. What the Speaker said this afternoon was correct. It is now for i he Hou<;;C to disagree with the connnittoe if it so dPsir0~.

Mr. TAYLOR (lrinrl:.or): I certainly agree \vith "\Yhat tlw P trl1anlentarv RPfrc~hnlcnt­rooms Committee• did to-daY. ·I take it. from the rcn1ark.s of ho -· nleiubcl: .. that the amend­ment mm·ccl b:, dll' hon. member for 2'\undah to bring thP purlian1Pll1ary n~frc'shment-room~ unrler rhe 'Copc of the Liqtior Act Amend­ment Bill should han' been rl.!lcd out of order.

The Hmn: Sg·RCTARY: liPar, hear~ The bar i~ not 1icrr;~ad prc1nise~.

:\1r. TAYLOR: To bring tlw pariiamen­tary l't'frp:-:.hn1o1t-rootns under the ~cope of the Liquor Act in the '""" eu~o·estcd b,- the hon. l11Clnb:-r for ::\undah ~YOUJ~.tbe an uncon­stitutional and "\Yrong nH~thod. and the arnenJ­ment should lun·e been ruled out of order at tht' time. Thai was not don0. I ha.-e made inquiries. but I cannot find anv rules or reg·ulations goYcrnjng 1 he Paflian1entar' Refreshment-rooms Committee, and unti'l stich rule,, or regula lions are introduced by Parliament, that committee has plenary po\vers.

Mr. RYAx: Would that apply to the Library Committee. too:

Mr. TAYLOR: Y0s. until vou have rules and regulations governing that committee.

The l'RE1IIER: S'ur0ly the House has power at all times to overrule a committee!

:\Ir. TAYLOR: Yes. Th0 PRnflER: Apart from anv regulations,

the Hous2, by notice of 1notjon: n1ay reverse a decision .1f the committee.

Mt·. TA YLOR: It may do that. The PRE1l!ER: That is all that is suggested

in this case.

::\1r. TA YLOR: I think that the Parliamen­tary Rcfr0shment-rooms Committee has the power to do what it has done. \Vith tho hon. member for Nundah, I was sorry to hear the Speaker sa v that until such time as a motion was subm'itted to the House, the

1923-31

: uppl, . 881

comrrdtce n1 i;rht feel inclined to withhold the­<·alT">·ins:r out of its re::olntion.

H~.11.\V. BE:RTHA:II: The c1mmittee will not meN until Tt.csclay or \Y cdnesday n0xt.

::\lr. TA YLOR: I do not think that should be done.

The hon. member for Bowen advocates the free distribution of " Hansard " through the State to all persons who apply for it. That might be all right. but I certamly do not favour it. \Ye find that. la•t year there were­onlv 1.972 r;opics of '' Hausard " circulated, aucl at a cost of £7.314.

The Hmm SECRET,\RY: About seyenty-two of them are read.

:\lr. TA YLOR : The hon. gentleman is right-about se.-enty-two of them arc read. lf any hon. membet: cares to go to members' rooms, he will find the lockers bursting with copies of '' Hansard."

Mr. CoLLIXS: You ,.-on't find that with my locker.

GOVERX1IEXT J\lEMBERS: Hear, hear ! ::\Ir. TA YLOR: Your locker is the only

one, then. GOVERX1tEXT 1\lE~lBEHS: ::\o.

Mr. TA YLOR : To carry out the sugges­tion 'wuld mean spending money raahly.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:IlLIC LANDS : If they a re not piling up iu the lockers, they are piling up somewhere else.

1\lr. TAYLOR: Yes, and at some period or other members will have a burning of " Hansard." I do 110t doubt the sincerity with which the hon. member for Bowen made the suggestion, but I do not think that th.e results -,·hich he anticipates from the distn­bnt iou will be achieved.

J\lr. CoLLIXS: You represent a city electo­rate, and not a country electorate.

:\!r. TAYLOR: You have a look at some of the rnen1bcrs' roon1s~ and you will see that "·hat I am saying is correct.

::\Ir. HARTLEY : \Ye are waiting for the mails to send them out.

UOVERX1IEXT 1\1E1JBEHS : Hear, hear !

::\Ir. TAYLOR: It is pointed out in this report of the Principrrl ~horthand Writer that the co~t of prjnting '' Han~ard" was lt:ss last year than in the preyious year, and one of the reasons given is the fact that members h;ne not had so many of their speeches printed in pamphlet form by the UoYernmcnt Printing Office for distribution, hence the cost has not been so great as in previous years. Hefc'rcnce is made in the report of the Chief of the "Hansard" Staff to the acoustic properties of this Chamber, and the disabilities under which the report­ing staff labour in being perched up in that crow's nest where they are now situated, to report the parliamentary debates. It is time that somo alteration was made. It is not fair to the men up in the gallery to have to report the speeches of hon. members under the difficulties whJCh we know must exist at the present time. l do not see wh;;· it should not be possible to bring them down to the level of the Speaker's chair on this floor, where they would be able to follow the debates without difficulty.

Mr. RYAN: They can hear bet!ter up there than we can hear down here.

Mr. TA YLOR : The report refers to the­acomtic properties of the building and the

.11t-. Tr:y 7or.]

382 Supplj.

clifficnlties under which the "Hansard" Staff In hour in reporting the speeches of hon. ntendx~rs

The HOME SECHETARY: Some men gabble, and it is impossible to catch >Yhat they say.

Mr TAYLOR: You arc gabbling at the pn sent time.

The HmiE SECRETAHY : They report me correctlv. I nc,·cr have to correct my 'pecchcs.

Mr. TAYLOR: I would just like to repeat the remarks I used at the commencement of my speech with regard to the closure of the parliamentarv bar at 8 o'clock, and say that in my opinion the first mistake was made in accepting the amendment of the hon. member for ::\undah.

Mr. KI:\'G (Logan): There seems to be some slight difference of opinion as to the wisdom of the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms Committee in coming to the decision it did to-day. A suggestion has been made bv the Speaker, as the chairman of that committee, that this resolution should not be put into force for the time being, but that the bar should remain open till the House had had an opportunity of discussing the matter. That is all right, so long as we get some guarantee that the discussion will take place at an early date.

The PREMIER: It will come forward on Tuesday, provided notice of it 1s given to+n1orro1.v.

J\Ir. Kl?\G: So long as the House has an -opportunity of discussing the matter, I am satisfied. If the House confirm,; the decision of the committee. wPll and good; but if it does not. the committee. if it takt>' it as a vote of censure. will know what to do. \Yill the motion come from the Government side of the House or from this side?

The PRE:\IIER: I don't know. From which­ever side it comes it will be regarded as a non-party question.

Mr. KIXG: If it is decided on non-party lines, I have no objection.

The PRE~IIER: Personally, I think some hon. member ought to move that the report of the committee be adopted.

Mr. KI)JG: I hope the chairman of the committee will take that action.

HoxocRABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. liARTLEY (Fitzroy): After listen· ing to various spec,ches that have !wen made On this quL ,tion, it appear to rnc to be the desire Df hon. n'!etnbPrs opposite to step away from the effects of the amendment moved on the Liquor Act Amendment Bill on 15th Augast last. The'· want the com­mittee to take tlw responsibilitv. in defiance of the resolution that was then" agreed to. I "'aJCt hY be qaite clear on this question. bccau'0 it is easy for anybody \vho objects to the committee to disagree with the com· mittc,•'s decision. That will not get where I \\ Ttllt to get.

Mr. KING: You want to side-step alto· f:ethcr.

2\Ir. HARTLEY: The hon. member for Logo n showed that he wants to side-step. Speaking about the hon. memoer for Bris­bane and myself, the hon. member indicated that, if the decision of the committee is agreed to, the hon. member for Brisbane and I will be able to say, " I am sorr~· I can't ' shout' for you; 'it is against the law." I

[Mr. Taylor.

Supply.

HCY()r side-stepped a •·shout,'' although I hdYe

not had a drink of anc thing hard for some­thing; like t\v0nt y-three ~·ears.

:VIr. KING: Yon might have saved a few •· bob" tlw other night had 8 o'clock closing been in force.

:Vlr. HARTLEY: The side-step that hon. nlCnlhPr!" want to n1akc i:;; to save them a fe\V •· hob,'' Lccauso it is their friends who are likol:v to con1e here sponging for a drink.' Thev want the committee to be foolish c·no{tgh to take the rc·.ponsibility of closing down the bar. and then after 8 o'clock they will have bottles put away in different cnrners. and the committee will have a great deal of trouble in enforcing its decision. It will be just as hard to prevent liqaor being consumed after 8 o'clock here as it is in town. I want to find out how this re•olution is to be submitted. If the chairman of the com­mittee mov('s that the parliamentarv refresh­ment bar shall be closed at 8 o'clock, that will giYe any hon. merr1ber who desires an opportunity of mo.-ing an amendment. If '·omcbody mm·cs that the decision of the committee be dicagrecd with, it will prevent anyone else rnoving an atnendment. I a1n not going to move that the decision of the committee be disagreed with; but, if the House is asked to approye of the decision of the committee, I am going to move that the parliamentary bar be aboiished and closed altogether. Then we shall find out where the hon. member for \Vynnum and one or two other so-called prohibitionists, who are not drinkers, stand. I shall be glad if the Pre­mier will make a statement as to how the resolution will come before the House. (Laughter.}

The CHAIRMAN: I would like to point out to hon. member• that it is not advisable to discuss the pros and cons of the resolu­tion of the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms Committee. If notice is given to­morrow, they "·ill ha.-e an opportunity of discussing it on Tuesday next. I hope that hon. members will keep to the vote, allowing a certain amount of latitade, of course.

~Ir. COLLI='IS (Howen): I do not intend to discuss the liquor question at all-I think it has occupied too much time this afternoon. I am going to reply to the remarks of the lea dcr of the Opposition in reference to my prO[JO&al that '· Hans>1rd" should be given free• to all persons making application for it I will repeat what I said earlier. I >vant to represent an intelligent set of elec­tor,.. If other hon members do not want to represent people with intelligence, it is no fault of minE'. I would also ask the Prf Inil'r to consider the advisablcness of h::vin,!2: the tY\)C that is no\V nsed in " Ban­surd.,- altcrc.d. In my opinion the present type is ruining the P"csight not only of hon. memlwrs of this Hoasc but of the people ouLide. Hon. members opposite get in a regular quandary when they start to quote frorn "IIansnrd,'' c~p0cial1y when they quote hom speeches of mint' (Laughter.} As a rule, when they quote from my speeches I haYe to get a copy of " Hansard" to see if they are quoting me correctly. I say in all sNiousness that we shoald adopt the same kind of type that is used in the Federal "Hansard." \Ve should get more up to date. I am still of the belief that, if my proposal were carried out, there would be a large number of applications for " Han­sard." It is all very well to say that hon.

Supp(;. [6 SEPTE:.YIBBR.] 883

n.0mbcrs are too lazv to let their constituents loww what they arc doing. I am not in that Jlosition. I generally tr:; to get two ,;r three eo pies of " I-Iansard " over aud &Love the twenty-four supplied to me. I am r.ot asharnecl of what I am doing in this House. and I want mv electors to know \Yhat I am doing. I( my proposal ;n•re carried. the leader of the Opposition infers that people would not make application for "Hamard." If that is so, >Yhy any objec· tion to tho proposal? Let us tn· the pro· posal. Let it be known to the· people of Queensland that they can get " Hansard" free if they make application for it. There is nothing wrong with the proposal, and I hope the ·Premier will gi.-e it consideration. I have raised this question for the last eight years. and nothing has been done.

I was very pleased to hear the hon. mem­ber for South Brisbane suggest rnaking use of the Legislative Council Chamber. His proposal is a good one. VI' e should get the most up-to-date books and pamphlets issued bv the Commonwealth Parliament for the llSL' of hon. members and also make an addi­tional rcading-roon1 for hon. mcmbPrs, gh·ing them more accommodation than thev have at the present time. ·

c\Ir. TAYLOR (WindBnr): There is one matter I would like thl' Premier to clear up in connection with the motion that is sug­u:-c~ted for consideration next \veek. VVe haw been discussing during the whole of the aftemoon the derision to close the parlia­mentary refreshment bar at 8 o'clock, but we ha.-e had no official report from the Refreshment Rooms Committee that it intends to take such action.

}lr. KELSO: The Speaker indicated that that action was to be taken.

Mr. TAYLOR: Before anv resolution in connection with the matter 'ran be moved in this House I take it that we shall have to be supplied with a report from t!]e com­mittee> stating it contemplates doing a cer· iain thing.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LA~ms: Initiate it as an ordinary motion.

Question put and passed.

CHIEF SECRETARY-CHIEF OFFICE. The PREMIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore,

C'hilfartoc): I beg to move-,, That £12.382 Le granted for 'Pre­

mier and Chief Secretary's Department­Chief Office.'"

There is a slight itirrf'asc over tho appropria­ti{Jn lasi year ancl ·a slight increase over the awonnt .1pc1tt la:-;t year. The an1ount expen­ded Lst year ;;-as £12.248. and >VC flre appro· priatin!J: this year £12.382. There is yery little cliangc in the ~·ote. There is a decrease of £500 fm ·' Ineiclentale and Miscellaneous Expenses." and an extra £500 for the administration of the Profitecring Prevention Act. The se]taratc vote in regard to that n1a1tcr ha2 bE'Pll cli1ninated, and is now embodied in the .-otc for the Chief Secre· tary's Department.

:Mr. KERR (Enoggcra): I would like to n1akc a suggestion tn the Prernicr in con­nec-tion >vith the preparation of the items in the difieren··. votes. The amounts put dovm for incidentals in connection with the variou' depa,rtmonts. totals tens of thousands of pounds. In this particular vote the amount

is £5.500. It would saYe a good d,,,t] of ti·•;e if >YC followed the procedure adoptJd by other States in the pr0pnrat1on of the l·>rimates. In mosr of the otlwr SLt~s nnv itcn1 oyer £1.000 is ~hown Hl(Jre or les:;; in· detail. 'l'hat is the case in Xew South \Yale I think thal in 1920-1921 the l'r,•mier i5."ucd instructions tD the yarious departnH~~lts that they were to keep within th<' exp.cudi. f:u c• alloca t.ed bv ParliarrlCnt. an cl snbn•i t monthly reports· th2reon. If so larg<' an amount as £6,000 remuim unexpondecl at the Pnd of the year in a departrrtent. lher(~ is an incentive to spend up to the full rrnount of the vote. The Premier will re,disc t.hat nearly all the .depa-rtments h.rvo not opent up to the full am-:lunt of thr• ,·ott'S. I would Buggc~t that_, in order to keep ciown <'xpenditure as much as possibk. th,, Pr£>­rllier should instruct the ;-arious departments to itcrnisc the "Incidentals."

I want to deal with the vote we ban· had fur a number of years with regard to the Con1missioncr of PI-ices. The vote for ·this brnnch for the last few Years bea,r, out n nn~·nbcr of ~Jatr-n1ents. I ha~-o rnadc fronr vear lo year. In 1920-1921 the amount was £4.1.85; in 1921-1922 it was £3,742; and in 1922-1923 it was £2.490. This vcar we find that the vote for Cornn1issione'r of P6ces ha~ been rr-mo.-ed from the Estimates as a separate entity. and provision is made for hi~n in I he item of £800 for " under Secretarv and C0mmissioncr of Prices'' nnder the '·'Chief Clilice '' vote. That official has to do with the Profiteering Prm·eution Act of 1920. When speaking last session (.-ide " Hansnrl, ., page 981) I said-

" It is acknowledged, from !he amount of money asked for, that this depe<anwnt is not a success and is unnrf -'s.sary."

also said-" How is it possible for thr, Commis­

sioner of Prices. wi t.h a sbtf of ono inspector. a. secretary, one typist. ar1d a me"enger, to fix the price of a, hur.dred items in seventy-six countrv tow·ns in Queensland " · "

~aid then that it was impossible for the Cornn1iesioner of Prices' office to serve the purpose ivhich the people were led to believe it would achie.-o. There are some busineRSes in Qrwonsland in connection with which a.bout eighteen months ago a deputation waited O'l the Cornn1i:3sionc1~ of Prices to a~k hiLl to reduce the price of a certain commodity. There i.~ not a greater monopoly in existence than the particular bnsiness to .,-hich I rder. and C'lmpcrition is ]Jractically eliminated. It 1., a eo m bine. and tho:s.P concerned in it fix: the price which the nonsumcr must pay for I he commodity. !c deputation waited o" the Con1n1is.-;ioner for Prices, but no fl('tion 'vas taken in regard to the matter. \VIwther the intcrpsts of thosc~in that business arc grc:ttc'r 1 hnn the interests of the consumir1 g public I do not know.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LA~\DS: \Yhat !S the commodity·:

Mr. KERR: It is beer (Laughter.) There is no doubt that the greatest combiun in Queensland is the liquor trade. It is pro­tceted from competition, and it is the only tra-de w.bich is so protected. It is getting " larger profit than any other industry. The Commissioner of Prices was asked to fix the price of this commodity, but-whether by ir,struction from the Government or not, I

Mr. Kerr.]

884 [AS:3K\IDLY.J Supjl:;.

do not kno\v-~h(' did not take avtion. This l'{'QUP~t cnu1c frmn n1~~n1Uers of tutions­wh~et11cr the cornnwdity le. n1ore cnjuved a::; a tf;ni'-' nr a J;)od, l t,io 1~ot k:lo"\\~. \L::l.ughh~r.)

f 0 C'D1J11l::lSlH! llly rt'ntark~ aild [7.30 !Llll.] :ho _, thl' ludicTou5 po·itlon of

the Conln1i:3·.ioner of Pri~-.L~-~- whc_1 i~ Cib~orbiLg a cc•rtain Hllh_,ullt of pubLc fund:-, a.nd to proYt' that the .Profit('criug Prc;-c·ltion . .:\c1- is c :_rrieJ. out to a Hllall cxtc•nt only, I r·ror,:::;e to quote 1:2 fe; exmnplcs-. h i:.:: no lcngt•J' dcCL'iYing a n1a jurity of the nc'oplc, and. the Connni:--::'iioncr' s. owrl rt•porr is~ conf-ir­Dl,:tlon of what I ::;ay. In one seutenct> it state"· that the A. t i~ doing excellPut work .tnd reducing price::-, but it contraciicts itself ycry qnil'kl:v-

.. During the ye.<r 152 notification.; were g~tzct tyd a.nd 364 price list-s 1ssued, rPduCillej rhe prices of Ya·riou::; CDn1mo­dir:ic~ .. ,

ln a paragraph a liLtle later it saYS--. "In Se1~ten1ber, o·wing to a1~1 adYanco 111 the' pnce of flour in Bri,.banc, an Incn'atS;e of ld. pr-r 2-lb. lord ""?d

<~uthc.·Jsed, am! subseqwmtly a fw·thel' a.d_yance ID the price of fl.ou~· lH·ceEsi-1atc-cl another incrca~e of ~d. per lonf."

That :-;hows that n'duc·tion~ arc n1ade 1:,·here they , annat Le aYoirlcd. I \Yant to ask the PrcilliC'r or <:~H_Y other me1nbc-r in thP House to explain ho\Y rhc Cominis:-;ioner. \Yith a typist and an dficc bo,·, c::tn control the whole of • he• prices of hundreds of articles 111 nca lCO ~·unntry town:S :in Queensland'? Th0 1s \\TOT!p:. It is a \Va'-t.l~ of n1oney to L.:azt'tt(' t hc··c notice~. and the Go\ Clnrnl" t <ttc- g'C'ttlnu their lr•g-.. pullC'rl b:, thr> \Hrl, ll .... l'l'OplL' \"\ho nll the article·:; C0l1Cl'l'l1l'd,

lion. ~-. T. BrtEXX_\::\: The cDst of 1iYing is lowt•r 111 Qu<..:'l'll~land than any other State.

Mr. KERH: [ hnYP 110 de ire to labour the arv.u;tH'nt a tu tht> co..:t of liYill!.f, but I haY( ft?Ul'P:>:- tu ::-hn\\. that tlH' fall in Lthc cos, of Jiying dnrint.~ 1921-22 \Y''·; 4:. ld. in Bri~­bam•, -3'. lld. i" Svclm•,·, 5,_ ld. in ::'.lelbourne, Bnd 3~. 7d. in ..:-\dplaide. and there \YL'l'P. JH} Connni- "io::H·r~ ftxing· prices in the other State':; in t1u1' ~eu1:. Jiou~ing c:osts alone dL'crea~cd by 2'-. 6d. in Bri:-b~tnc. ls. 2d. in SydtH'.Y. 1~. 1ld. in ~Ielbcnn·nL'. and 1:-;. 5d. iu AdC'laldP. The Co:mn1i~s:ioncr of Prices, in his report to Far}inllH'llt, rncntion~ that the price <,f kcrcst'IH' dPc1ined. lie doe~ not ~ake _any kudos for that fact. but he puts it 1n hts report and 'i\-ast c.; paper and space for the purpose. I uncler5tand that the prices of meat arc• fixed bv the f'ommissioncr but for whose bcndit' ·when the> cattle m~rket was fallin['. the people who benefited were the Stat _ bu·clwr -hop', b •cause thcv sold at the prices fixed by the Commis,ioner, and the comumer r:aturallv had to pav a great Gcal n1ore than was ne:c0-:-::,arY. ~

Mr. Gn.DAY: You are absolutely wrong. In your own district the State is selling meat at 3d. for which the leading butcher, Trout. is charging 3~d.

Mr. KERR: I know butchers in mv dis­trict who are prepared to go below the 'state price·-. but I am not arguing that point at all. \Vhen the cattle market was slumping and 1he butchers were buying meat very cheaply, the consumers had to pay higher prices than would have been charged if com­petition had been allowed, because the Com­missioner fixed prices. Take another com­modity-boots and shoes-a very important

r 11.1 r. ]{ C?'r.

n~attcr to everybodY in the cornrnunitv. \Vo ktlO '.\· th ·1 rl1(; Cor;1n1issioner has ab;olutely no coutrol t'YCr ~uc:h itein"S. ..::\.. large per­ecnta2, oi uur rcquirenwnts ~ne imported from the Southern States. They cau ,be in..-oiccd at any price the rnanufacturcr chooses, and the only control that can be cxcrciged LY the Cmnn1i::,·io11er here is in respect of 0ycrhcad chargps and a certain margin of profit. The only thing the Com­tni~~wner i:J doing is to rnake factories go out of the Stat" to somewhere where he cannot int('l'fl'rc \vith their internal organisa­tion, which io detriment a 1 to the develop­ment of Queensland's secondary industries, The remark applies more or less to every commodih· manufactured in this ~\tate. The report also states that the wholesale price of gaiYanised iron was reduced, but it vvas not reduced bv "ihc CoinJn:iss:ioner. Neverthelesst kudos has' been taken in the report for the fact. I \\'aut hon. members to understand that I am not criticising the officer .

I---Ias the Con11nissioner of Prices anv con­trol oYlr the fixing of prices in con1iection with farm produce that is sold daily at Roma sheet? It is impossible for him to fix a price for that produce. Although I agree· that the l'rofitcering Prc>Ycntion Act, after :-:-orr1c arncndn1ent, should rerna:in on the­statute-book to meet any occasion that might arise, still I must say that at the present tin1e it is u~cd for one purpose only and is in itself :ineffectiv-e. It is onlv waste of tin1c atln1inistering that Act, \Vhic.h is caw,]ng a t;:ood deal of t.ronble to vatious businesses and the people conducting then1 :in this State. I hope that thr•c little pinpricks that are operating agai11~t the various busines-~cs of Queensland to-clay will be reJnovtx1. It is Lot a quc"ition of preventing proiitcering. 1 he Conuni:,,,-iol1Cr, in his report) rnakcs smne­tTfcn'nct: to conlpctjtion. I believe that com­pc'tition-it is said that it is a wry <mjust and cruPl thing for the masses-will find it~ o,,n level. Tho C'on1n1issioucr eonfinns that statement in one part of his report. I ask t h(: PreiHicr to con~ider if it is wise to keep legislation on the statute-book whic·h works out in the \HW I haye described. \Ve find that the vote i.s reduced year by year, show· ing that it :is lllUlecc:,sary, and I hope that next .vcar there \vill be- no pro\·ision on the E'timates for the administration of this AcL

::VIr. GILDAY (lthara): I would have been lacking in my duty if I had not risen to refut· certain statements made bv the hon. member for Enoggera. He is imbued with the idea that he knows all about everything under the sun that comes up for discussion. Unfortunatelv for himself he knows abso· lutely nothi1;g with regard to one or two minor matters that have got into his mind during his career. He deals with the Go­n'rnmem's ''inactivity'' with regard to the 'neat business. Let me tell him that I think that the Commissiouer of Prices has done great service ior Queensland. I suppose the hon. member for Enoggera is one who, when he travels in other States, goes along for the purpose of having a ''joy rid£'." I do not. While I am in other States-although it may be an extra financial burden for me-I investi­gate the affairs of those States. I do not think there is anv other State in Australia to-cla:v that can equal Queensland, If hon. membrn opposite will only read, they can look up records of some of the Adelaide papers which are opposed to us politically, and thev will realise that Queensland is out

((] SEPTEMBER j S·'!ppl'J. 885

on it~ O\Yll. ThP ConlnJi:.;~ioncr of Price::;, '\rho is al.:~o t'ndt•r Secretary to thu Chief Rccre­tar_,·'~ DcpartlllPnt. is cntru;;;h'd \vith the duty of seeing that eYcrythi11g is done right for the peoplE~. To-day we ha Ye beef steak sold in tlte State butcher shops >it 3d. a lb .. and 200 :vards a>Ya:- it is sold in the pri; ate shops at 3~d. a lb. I an1 spcakjng of n1y own electorate ncm-. It was statccl that tht• Go­vernnlPnt ".:re operating through the nleat­\York:'i and were not prcparc•d to go to the sa]cyards und compete agaiust priYatc entcr-

Dtu·ing· th(' last h\·u years have competi~1g again.-:t prin~t0 enterprise:

still I notice that the Yerv br ... t lw,:--f steak ( Lil be go1 in the State lmtChPL' shop~ at 3d. a lb .. whlle it i~ ::;old for 3~d. a lb. in the private• 'hops.

:\Ir. :\loRG.\);: You arc tPlling us about thP lowest quality of nwat. Tell us a !:out thc­Dthor n1eat.

M1~. GILDAY: Yes, brothc•r :\lorg·an. I will come to that.

The CIIAIR~IAX: Order 1

:\11·. GILDAY: Take filld st<•ak or rump stPak. I shall assume that the hon. membC'r for :\lurilla is a cattleman.

l\1r. 110RG.\X: I ha Ye cut np a good many bca . ..:.t~ in rn_v tin1c.

l\Ir. GILDAY: I am not ··.o sure about tha!. The be3t nwat is being sold in the ~tatc' butcher shops at Id. per lb. less than m the prin1tc shops. I dcfv contradiction of that statement. ·

:\Ir. 1\IoRCAX: Tlw Con1missioncr of P1·ices has nothing to do with that.

:'>lr. Cr.WTOX: That is not the case in Afaryborough.

Mr. GILD AY: I am not talking about ]l,la r,vl:orough.

:Ur_ CARTEH: :\laryborough " not the world.

~Ir. CILD,\.Y: ThP Commi:--ion<Cr of :Pric·c•s has .a great d0al to do ;vith it. If he did 11ot fix whl1t was a n•a•onablc price for meat. the people of QuPc•nsiand would be' fid'cf'd frmn one <-~ncl to the other.

.Mr. 1\louo.\x: HP does not sa·.· lhat meat. ,hall be sold in tlw Stalc- shojl' at ~d. ]Jl'r lb. le'5.

l\Ir. GTLDA Y: lie fixes the price at which meat shall be sold.

:\fr. :!\Ionr:.1x: Is he responsible for the low pric·• of beef in Queensland to-chy 'I

::\Ir GILDAY: I shall come to that. The GovernuiCIIt arc endca .. vouring to give the cattl0 gro\vors every possible: chanrC' of gdting the full remits of their labour. :\Iako no mistake about thai. \Yhy, bl0cs my 'oul, if hem. members opposite would only read '·Smith's \VceklY " the,- would sece v;-here the i niquitios existed. l ,;·m not going to say to hon. members that I know too much, but I can pit m_, self against any individual when it comes to anv matter in connection with the rnoat indw:.:irv:. r_rhu consun10rs of mcnJ. to­<:la~- ar0 rece;;-ing the cheapest meat. in the wol'ld, and not at tlw expense of the priman procluc<Cr. The Government of the dav be­lieve in supporting the cattle industry,' but, unfortunatf'Jy the majorit:,· of hon. !TIPn1l:PJ·s

opposite do not subscribe to what we desire. We find that, if we happen to get a market in the old country, th0n the American•. particularly Argentina. rcduc0 their prices

io such an extent dwt it i< impo, .iblc for the Qucc'nsland p:1si ora list~ to rarry on suc­cessfully agniL.:lt thc1n. It doPs not matter a ~;,-opcnny bit what the Go.-Prnment desire to do. our frie11rl~ oppo;;itP are up in arn16 against then1 for the puq>OS(' of gain­ing political kudos. Is that not a fact? I cannot unrle>r tancl hm.- th<' hon. member for Enoggera <'Oldd rnakC' the ~pPech h(' did in an atten1pt to datnngc 1 hr Go,-r-l'llllH"llt in regard to it::- <'nntwction \Vith the nl£'at indus­try. IIP knm;-s pcrfccth- >Y<'ll that he has a State shop in his electorate.

l\Ir. KEHH: I ha;-l! nothing· of thl' kind. You don't know \\-hnt you Ul'l'- talking about. You \\-ant to get your facts corrc('t.

:\Ir. CILlL~ Y: The ]Woplt' of Queensland io-clay Plljoy the priYilcgc of purchasing m0at at a rnininnun prirc. Beef steak is sold here at 3d. per lb .. compared with 7d. in thl' other Statl's, ami the maximum price of bee£ is 7d. per lb. I tlo not include fillet steak. \Yhich i:" ld. per lb. clearer, corn­parcel ;;-ith Is. Sd. in the other States. Cattle ~"nt frotH Quecn~1anJ rcali::-e in Sydney as hqch as £23 and £24 a hr cl. Who gets the differt'IH't' in thP price the c·aitlc futeh here ami ;;-ha1 t hc•y arP [lUl'l'hascd at in S,\t!JH'y­tlw groWPI' or thP n1iddlernall '.' It JS n1en like the hon. member for \\"0-nnum. Ht' is a lliiddleruan. anLl that i:-3 1he indiYidnal \Yho is rcL 'jvlllg thl' difter{'ncc b01\I"E'L'l1 the price at ;vhit·h the grower sells his cattle• and what lhe comumcr pays for the bed. The hon. rncrnbcr for Erwgge-ra has l1PYCr owned a hoof in his life.

:\Jr. Kr-:uu: You are tc•lliug another untrnih.

:\Ir. C ILD~'\ Y: Thr• hon. member for EnoggPra, 1-.. ·Jng a ?\ntionalii't. is reluctantly l'Onl]Wllctl to uphold the hou. Jlll'lllbers for \YYnnnnl. \Ylnd"'ol', and :-eYcral othe-rs on hi; sic!,•. I do not mind that. but why will hon, llll'Inbcr,, not bP hon{_•::;t in this llousc? Our a rgunwnts here 'houlcl be founckcl on honl"~tv of puqlo,-c•. EYery hon. rr1en1~J(~r shou1cf rc1.lisP the po;;.ition cf the con;;.un11ng publir \Yhen he" i~ dealing with this qu('.;;;tion.

:\Ir. C1..\YTOX: And the position of the producer .

l\lr. G1LDAY: Xo Gov-ernment in anJ part of thf' ci,-ilised 'mrld haYf' looked after the interests of their people m th1s matter more than the Government of this State. Although there may be minor matters wh!oh arc not of a national character on whwh wo disagree, still I am v-_er0• pleased to be a supporter of the Co,·ernment. The Queens­land Government arc the only Uo.-ernment in the world who ha;-e surviYed the war, and ar•o still in pmYcr to-day.

l\Ir. :\IAXWELL: You don't blame the war for, that, clo you'

Mr. GILDAY: Xo. If the hon. member for Too\\ong had gone to the war like my boy, he might havE~ something to be pr,oud of, although that is no fault of mme. lhe fact that I have jusi 1nentioned is Ollt' to be proud of. and one which is to be emphasised in our lPgislation. The consuming public ought. to be proud of the actions of the GoYernrnent in ke0ping dowll thC' ro~t of li·:ing o 11rl of th0 work perfornwcl by the Coinniis:;;iol)C'l' of Pri('c;-;. "'l-IP has done a legitima tc 'en· ice on behalf of the people.

~h. Ell\'--".'HDI': And lw has ·• done" th<> pt·inl:Jry producer.

J!r. Gilclay.]

886 lASSEl\lBL Y.] Supply.

Mr. G lLDA Y: The primar:. producer was never bPJtN off in hi' life than he is to-day. lf the prima1-y proilucer cou];l only b·3 brought to realise that his position Yvas duP to this Government, the hon. member for N anango wcmld not be in this House. I hup,' that the Premier will maintain tho position of Comnli:.,sioncy of Prices, because many exploiter- appear from time to time in the community, and it i" absolutely neces­sary to have sorncono in an official position to look after the interests of the community. The hon. member for JY1urilla has made ccrta.Hl assertions in this llouso concerning tho cattle industry, and I ·wish to assure him that I will co-operate with him and do everything possible in order to advance tho meat industry. I am satisfied that my leader is only too pleased to do what he can in the interests of the industry. That being so, why will the Opposition not be honest and assist tho Government?

GovERNMENT 11D!BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. GILDAY: Under the Navigation Act to-day, which is controlled by the Federal Government--

The CHAIRMAN : 'I'he hon. gentleman must deal with the Commissioner of Prices. Ho cannot deal with the meat industry.

Mr. GILDA Y: The Queensland Govern­ment have endeavoured to give the people in the Southern States cheap m"at but under the iniquitous Navigation Act, the Federal Government have only allowed our shipping all l!11initesimal proportion of their refriP'era­ting space in which to carrv chilled !'neat from this State to the Southern States. The quantity of meat that can be carried in that space is only sufficient for the require­ments of certain suburbs in Sydney or Mel­bourne. If the Federal Government are ~incere in their desire. to develop the moat mdu;try, as the CommissiOner of Prices has done, they would abolish that regulation and permit eYery ship that touches our port; to take wha,tever quantity of meat they

w1sh to the Southern States. If [8 p.m.] that was done, we could have

thousands of men engaged in Queensland, and all our cattle would be absorbed. The result would be that the primar:v producer would get a better price for his cattle than he is getting to-day. That is my contention. Unfortunately, the Federal GoYernmcnt of to-day do not realise tha,t posit ion. I think that the time has arrived for Queensland-tho greatest moat-producing State in Australia to-day-to take a stand in that direction.

I. know I have lwen \\'.tlldcring around the pomt. hut I believe that we should foster our inc:mtrics. It is said that the Cornmis­s~cuer of Price_s . is. passing certain regula­tions that arP mimical to the advancement of different induetries. That is absolutely wrong-. \\~c should direct our attention to th0 t.Hh-nncl·nH'llt of our industries out.;;.ide of Qm'cnslancl. I am quite satisfied !hat, if hoiL 111C'IIIbC'rS opposil<' would ad\'Ocate 9uch an idea. thPy \\ould have the majority of thr JllPillhcrs on this side of the House supporting them.

Mr . .:\IORGA:"-1 (Jiuri11a): The hon. mem­bct for Ithaca .has evidently given credit h> the CormniBsioner of Prices for the low price of meat ruling in Queensland.

Mr. GrLDAY: Xothing of the kind. It is duf:' to your own activities.

[11fr. Gilday.

:\!r. :\IORGAX: The low prices ruling­;,, Qcwensland to-dav arc clue to the unfor­tur;ato fac·t that fat 'cattle arc selling at tlw Enog·g,·ra sale yards at such a lo\V rate~ \Ylwn tlw hon. member tries to compare the prices charged in Brisbane with those charged iu S;TclnPy, ?delbourne, and Ade­laide. lw ;, not on a solid foundation. Take his O\Vll figurP~ for the lowest price for steak. The State and private butchers are buying· their moat at 2d. on the hoof and arc selling it for 3·d., a gain of ld. prr lb.

At 8.5 p.m., :Vlr. Dc;::-;rsTAN (U!fmpic). one of the

par.cl of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chairman in the chair.

:\1r. MORG.-\.X: In Sydney lor the same class of meat they arc paying 6d. per lb.­the price being 60s. to 65s. per cwt.-and the public are purchasing at 7d. per !h. The butclwrs arc therefore making a profit of ld. per lb. on meat for which they pay 6d. per lb. In Brisbane the but<:hers arc making l.d. Jl'"" lb. on meat for Yvhich they pay 2d. per lb. The profits here are therefore excessive as compared with the· Southern States. Buyers in Queensland have for mflny years been paying an a v-crage of l~d. to 2d. per lb. for beef on the hoof; in Sydney, Melbourne, and Adelaide the same cattle are bringing 6d. per lb. on the hoof. They are paying from 15s. to 22s. per cwt. in Brisbane and from 60s. to 65s. in Sydney. the same price in ::Yielbonrne, and from 50.,. to 60s. in Adelaide.

Mr. HARTLEY: Where do they buy beef at l~d. per lb.?

:\1r. .:\IORGAX: At the Enoggera sale­yards-good cow beef-and the State stations kill a great number of cows.

J\11-. HARTLEY: VVe are talking about prime beef.

Mr. J\IORGA:\': The hon. member could not tell the difference between a roast of cow beef and a roast of bullock beef if ir was cooked and put on his table.

Mr. HARTLEY: I admit that; but that does not affect the question of the price of the hrst quality beef.

::Yir. M ORGAN: The butcher buys a cer­tain number of cows and a CPrtain nun1bcr o£ bullocks, and on an average, for the last two vr~rs at anv rate. he has been getting hi~ Enoggera supply of beef, taking an ClJua l per<eent<1go of cow and bullock, for gd. and 2d. per lb. on the hoof.

Mr. HARTLEY: He has not. :\Ir. :YIORGAX: And when you go into the

shop he oimply cuts up the cow beef, and you do not know the difference. You pay the ~an~C' prico for CO\\ meat as for bul1ock 111eat, "nd. not ono man in a thousand knows the difference when it is placed on his plate. A g-rr·oter profit is being- made in Bri~ban<: to~aY bv the butchers than has ever been made" be,fore in the history of Queensland. A greater profit is being made by the Bris­bane butchers than is made bv the butchers in any other :part of Australia, simply hf'Cause, while the mPat is cheaper here, it is owing to the fact that a bullock will o~ly bring at the Enoggera sale:-, ar·ds a third of the yalue that it will bring in Sydney, :'IIelbourne. and Adelaide. If the Commis­sioner of Prices takes credit for the low price of meat in Brisbane, he is doing an injury to Queensland, because every member of this Committee will admit that we should

Supply. [6 SEPTE:\IBER. j

be aolc to g'('t ]1101'(' for our C<tttle>. If the Corumi~~im1Cr of Prict> is rcsponsibl('· for the lo\:· price of cattle at Enoggera to*day, thf' quickl'r he i.s done avvav vvith the better for he i, a menace inetea.cl of a benefit t~ Queensland. Ilo\YCV(er. I sav that he is not n•.,ponsible. I do not blan1e him for the price of beef at the Enoggcra yards.

I vv·ish now to deal with one or two other matters. \Ye fwd that the prices for flour and its by-products arc ano1nalous. In order to allow flotll' to be sold at less than its vahw, the Con1missioner of Prices ls passing the east on to somebody else. He is passing the cost en to tJ,je by-products. and on to the poor, unfortcmaw dairvmcn who haw> to buY bran and pollard for iheir ,,tock. A price i.s put on bran which is exorbitant, and a similar condition applies to pollard. This cheapening of the price of flour is for the !'Urpose of enabling the pe>ople in the large citie>s to get flour for £1 a ton less than it i'l worth,. 'The city people benefit, while the people m the countrv, who want the bv­products to keep their "stock aliv-e and to fe~d their fowls :tnd so produce eggs, arc imposed npon. This is became the Commissioner of Price-• is not doing his duty with respect to the pnce of flour. He is only saving a certain section of the people and passing the pnces on to another dass who cannot afford the prices -they are asked to pay for these by-pro-ducts.

In regard to hotels and the remarks of the hon. member for Enoggera, oYerybody knows that hotels have a monopoly in Bris­bane and charge vvhat they like for meals, as they have no one in competition with them. If the grocer, butcher, or baker was charging too much and somebody entered in'o competition wit~, him, he woufd have to reduce his prices. The hotels hav-e a GoYern­ment monopoly which allovvs them to cha1'ge JUSt what they Ii~e. In Brisbane they have mcreosed then pnces under this GoYernment by 100 per c0nt. Hotels vvhich a few vears ago vv·ere charging 5s. a dav arc now a!lovv-ed to charge JOs. and 15s. ~- day. They are makmg from 100 per cent. to 150 per cent. profit on the liquor which they sell, and the \Vorkor ha.;; to pay. The Cmnmissioner of Prires con1peb cPrtain conntrv hotPls to d~argo Ss. a clay. vYhy does he ;10t interfere w1th Bnsbtmc hotels'? In the countrv many hotel-keepers are struggling for an. eiistence, vet he penalises them and a!lows the Brisbane profi:ecrs to charge just what thev like. Ho id lows them .to exploit the public·; and he is afraid to mterfere. Whether it. is the GoYernment who prevent him or not I -do not knmY, hut the Commis•ioner of Prices should net be interfered with by the GovernrnciH. Ho should se<> that these people are not allmYed to t•xploit the public as thcv haw• b<'en exploiting- them. EYervbodv kno~v-s that is so. and the Colnlnissioner~ of :i?ricc'J kno,,·s it, but he i'• no' game to interfere. He inter­ferc•s in some little town, but vvhen it comes to doing his dL!tY in some big thing, we find hc does not do it at all. He is not game, or the Go\·crnment vv-ill not allow him to inter­fore in these matters. The quicker the Com­mi"iorwr of Prices is done away with the better. because competition, which is the life of trade. will reg-ulate prices. and interference by the Commissioner of Prices is detrimental to trade.

'Mr. HYxES: Don't you favour pools?

:!\fr. l\IORGAN: I want to deal now with a ma:tcr appertaining to questions I have

a::-ked ln this l-Iou2c on man'- o,r;casions, an cl al~o rf''3olntion:- pa~::;ed i11 ~this 1-IousC' in l'Cs!lect to Ylinisterial expenses. The Premier all along has sidetracked this matter. I want to draw attention to the fact that the following r0solution \Yas carried unanirr1ously by members of the Legislative Assembly on lst S'eptcmber. 1921 :-

"That there should be laid npon the table of the Ilonsc a return showing· the amount paid or incurred by the State in resptwt to the traYclliQg expen:5C:" of each indi,-idual member of tl1f :\linistrv dur­ing tlw : oars ended 30th June, 1910, 1911, 1912. 19!.3. 1914. 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, 1921. ..

That resolution \vas carried uJHtninionsly, a11d the Pren1ier pro1nised that the informa­l ion would be supplied. The origi:ml mc,tion I tnovcd asked for information in respect of the trav-elling expt;nses of e":ch indi1·i.dual nJember of the Mrmstry dunng the .'-ears 1819, 1920, and 1921; but a member on th0 Governn1ent side moved a.n ainendnwnt that t.he expenses incurred by ::Ylinisters during a cNtain number of years of tlw preYious Ccnernrnenfs regime and a sin1ilar nun1ber of years during tho pre.,ent Goverin~l0l~t's ;·~g-ime be given. Although that resomtwn was carried unanin1ously, up to the present nwment the inforn1ation has not been dis­closed. I do not wish in any \va \' to fpt it bo thought that I am against Minister8 1ccciving tra, .. elling expenscB, but whatt•vcr an10unt is fised bv regulation or bv the Cabinet, the public· should know. I l:i,•lieYe thf'l'e is wme regulation to lhc •effect that !\!inisters receiv-e £2 2s. per day trav-elling <·~ ponse' while they arc out of Brisb<tiH', an cl, in addition, all their expenses are paid. If rh; t is wrong, I vwuld like the Premif'r to s,n- so; but I understand that it is cGnect. That may bf' all right, and I am not com­pl;lining. if it i6 so; but the tn'CpaYer' cught to knmv-. \Yhen the pr<'S<:nt Pn'mier or previous Premier:-i have visited Eugland 1hc Auditor-General has tabled a return E<howing the exact cost of the trin. EYer:v-1hing \vas ite1nised. and we kno\v cxactlv what the lrip cost. In the sanH' wrty, in connection with ~'Iini~ter~' travelling ex­r 0nscs. there -·,honld be laid on the table of J),,_, House a return audited bv the Auditor­(:10nPral :;;ho,-ring the ~nnoun't of exncJJses ii.Clll'red by each :\Iinistcr, just the san10 as 'VC. a~k for a return sho\ving- the mnonnt p-·Jd to :;;olicitors and brrrristers in respect of work rendered to the State Jt is infor­rnution ihat the people are entitled to. The l"'1'(~n1irr n1av sav that it ,ya.s not done i;eforr• 1J'. 1J we art~ adYancing. 1\'e are adoptin-g t ,, dav many thing6 tl;at were not in vognc ~cars ago. \Ve arc progrc·-:sing.

:\Ir. COLLrxs: I am very glad to hear it.

:\Ir. MORGA:\": We are liv-inp; in a different. age and we must recognise that fact. It is not a bit of good for hon. mem­bers on the Gov-e1·nment side to g-et up and ''"" that during the n\g•me of the De•1ham C:ovornmcnt or the l'hilp Government this wae not done. The information mav not !;av-e been, asked for. although I see by

Hansard that. when members d th<' L•J bour P.arty were in opposition, they asked for. certain Information in rcga.rd to ntinis­tf>nal expenses and that informaiiou was alwavs supplied. The .late memht'r for PHddington, 1Ir. Fih0llv. asked for such information. and the info~mation wa'3 rh,Tavs c.rin:>n, and frivolous an:::wers \Verc n:1! giv0n,

Mr. M organ.]

388 Supply. [ASSE}lBLY.J S1lpply.

to que:::;tton ... such as arc giYcn by_ ~Lnisters to day in reg,'lrd to rnally quosbonC). The Prernicr ma) be able to show th~1t tlL' £>X'~cn::;cs D f tiini~h::l'S during the- five year~ 11nder a Liberal Adinini6tration were greo.tcr than thcv were .JurinO" the fiyo vear~ under a Labou~r Adn1inistr:'tion. Thc{t does not twnble me. The point is that the House r:n.rricd a resolution unaniJnously. an\.1 the Prcn1ier has uot snpplied the inforn1 :tion. H c has had oyer two years in which to .su1-..plv it, R1JJ on each occasion vvhe11 ht~ hac; !Jl'en ·asked for .the information h~ has told th0 House that the inforrna1.ion would be placed on the table, but up to Pw nr<'scnt rw:ment th"t has not been done. \Yhat has he to be ashamed of in thi;; matter: If e..c·r·.·thing is fair and abovc·boanl. then the J\1inisters haYe nothing to be asin;nwd of. If the expenses have been exorbitant, then the fact should be disclosed. l1S the public have a right to know. \Vhcn the Denham C_iny crnrncnt were in po,ver rtunour." were current that certain :Yiinieters wo·e extr,va· gant in re.J'n·d to their cxpens0-; wh0n they ,~i2ited the Southern St<ttes. or w.hLn they Yisited diffNent portions of Queendand, and, "' a result, Mr. Kidston and ::V[t. Oenham cmtailed the expenses of :VIinisic,·s. There are bla.ck sheep in every can1p. Then, rnay be men in anv 11inistrv. Liberal or Labour, who will take' aJvautage of their position as J'.Iinister~ to get all the money they possibly C3.ll. They 1nay \Vant to "make hay \Yhilo 1he sun shines," nnd ,to accurnula1:0 ,11l the.v call w.hile they are in the Cabinet. The point I want t.D make is this-that. if thC'rP is a :\Iini~tr-r whose Pxpcnscs are Loo grc.1t. then that J'.Iinis!er should Le Pxposod, n0 m:>ttcr v ho he may be.

:ilr. UILDAY: You expose it to the public.

Mr. l\IORG~-'1:'\: The hon. mPmlwr who interjects Yoted in favour of the resulution thnt inform:1.tiou in regard to ministerial e:<pon~es should bn laid on the talJk of thr, House.

Mr. GILDAY: That is an absoiutPly false ftatement.

}lr. i\IORGA~: Tlw hem. nwmiJPr vnierl in fr!vour of the resolution that was rarriecl in 1921. asking that there be laid on the table of the House a :r~turn ~hawing the expense., of Minister' during the years 1910 to 1921.

:\Ir. GILDAY: Ministerial expPnses compared with those of previoue Administrations Whv don· t you be honest? ·

;\Ir. :\IORGA:'\: \Ye arp taking flw :;~cars of both Administrations. EYcrv member of the House voted for tlw motion. but, not. withstandi11g that fact. tl10 Premier has not disclosed the information. The result is that the public arc suspicions. and arc asking why the~ bon. gPntlcman does not give the information. Tlwv haYe a right to know. and. if the PrcmiPr wi><lws to clear up the atmosphere and not allow suspicion to rc~t upon the Governnwllt, he will supply the information. At the proper time I am going to move that we adopt the principl0 that each vear the A uditor~GPncral shall furnish a ~eport to thP IIouoe showing the expenses incurred b_v i\Iinistcrs during the previous financial year. That would be a wise system to adopt. It would be in vogue all the time. no rnattcr \Yhat Governrncnt was in powt~r. To show that what I say is correct, the Pre~ mier sa id, in reply to a question which I asked him, that when all the information was

[Mr. JJiorgan.

avaihiJle in respect of the travelling expenses of ~1ini:-tcrs according· to the n1otion which \Yas carric•d in the IIou~c a week previously, !he information would Go supplied. He pro· iniscd to givP us this infonnation, and when I askt•cl him a queo.tion the other day he told me that he would suppl:;· it on the Estimates. I am anxiouo that this matter should be clearr'd up. :'\ot only in regard to thiB nuttt-,r hut i11 nurncrons other cases \VC have received cvasiv" replies, and the only thing I can do to dnw attention to the matter is to moye a redL!ction of this vote hy £1, as a protest against the way in which we haYe l·c•en treated with regard to this particular rnatter and with regard to other questions asked bv hon. members of this side. So that the pul~lic may know that the Opposition is ndt getting a fair dc-al in regard to these n1attcrs, I beg to nlovo-

" That the vote be reduced by £1." The PREMIER (lion. E. G. Theodore,

Chi/lagof') : It is surprising that year after vear-ever since 1920. at any rate-hon. mem­bers such as the hon. member for niurilla ~.hould punue with such extraordinary 1nalignity tho Con1n1isRioner of Prices. The hon. nwmiJer for Murilla c,ays that the Corn~ rnis~ionor of Prices has not done any good. Ile mi~rcprcscnts the case each time, and <'ndcavours to pour out hio wrath on the head of the unfortunate Commissioner. I want to ·reply to ono or two of the things he rai··ed in a most hysterical fashion when ht) \Yas throwing his arn1s about a few minutes ago and referring to the alleged iniquity of the Commissioner of Prices in regard to what he has done for the pro­ducc·rs in Queensland. He spoke about the tragedy of the dairymen, and the extortion thev are subjected to as a consequence of the action of the Commissioner quite recently in fixing the price of by~products of wheat. There is no regulation fixing the price of bran now, nor has there been at any time during the la.st twelve months. There is no price fixed at all by the f'ommi<sioner in regard to those commodities. \Yhat has the hon. member to say about that'

Mr. 1\IORGA~: I am going to reply.

'' The PREMIER: The ho11. membPr has the impertinence to say that he is going te reply, after making an accusation which has no foundation in truth anJ making a scanda~ lous attack on a public officer. The hollow~ nPss of his attack having been exposed, he is apparently going to dig up some other charge to hurl against the Gommissioner. I want to say a word or two with regard to the Commissioner-not in his ddence, because he requires no defence. He is an officer of the Government. The Government have to tako the responsibility in rc'gard to the rcgu~ lation of r)rices, a.nd not tho Comn1issionor of Prices. Hon. members who want to criticise the operation of the Profiteering Prevention Act will have to criticise the Government and not the officer, who is only carrying out hi:3 duty to the Government as the Commissioner of Prices. The Govern· ment in operating the Profiteering Preven~ tion Act have endeayourcd to operate it, although we may not have been succcsoful in c'very detail, so that it 1vill not adveroely affect the producer-so that it will protect him-and only regulate those defects in industry and trade, or that exploitation in lJU~incss, whirh requires regulation in the interests of the public. ThL• Profitc>ering Prevention Act is not directcJ against the

Supply. [6 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 889

producPr but ag-ainst the dishonest trader. It is directed agairHt thosc> Jpfe'cts in the adn1inistration of tht• cornnwrcial :-:v:-~tcn1 that lc•ad to C'xploit ttion. The• rcaso;1 for tlw exi~tencc {)£ that IDE',tsurc '\as stated \Yhcn it was being- cliscn"ed before the Hcmsc· at the latter c•nd of 1919. the· n'a"m being that it tras nccc,~ary to ]H'CYl'Tlt profitt•t'riug~that is, undcw extortion out of the pockets of the pcD:-Jle 'iYho have to lmy thc connnoditles of lifc•. Jt >vas not intended to do awav >vith profit:-; or to pn•vc•nt the carrying on ·of the trade, bu~i nc~s. or c·on1n1crC'e of the State. There was nothing further than that from the mind of the author of the Dill, or from the intention of tlw House. when the measun' v.-as pds.;;Pd. ThP GovPrnmcnt reeogr;i 3C that trade has to be carried on, competitively if possible-at any rate, carried on fair1)-~ and the l'rofiteering Preveution Act and the regulation and lixing c;f pricl'' was only a desire on the part of the GoYcrnmcnt to prPvent the undue extortion "·hich exists \Vithont reg-ulation, and bccau:;;e there is no regulation '-in the Southern States jr exi~t;, there to-day. Xo one ,-bo has examined the facts impartiallv can sav that there is anv evil in the s:votem of control of priees. '

l\Ir. J\loRGAx: ThPre has bcPn a greater reduction in prices Juring 1hc- last few vcar,: m Southern Stal<•s than in Queensland.·

The PREMIER : The hem. mPmbcr IS

quoting incorrectly. Mr. MoRG.\x: From 1914 to 1922 the in,

{Tease in the cOst of food has lJet'n gTPatcr in Queensland than in anv other c State in A mtralia. It slwws that pricP-flxing has done no good. ··-

The PRE:\IIER: The hon. member 1s \Yrong. To n1akc a fair cornpari~on he doe~ not want to go baek to 1914. as the Commis­~ion"r of Prices has only been opt'ratino· :-.inC'e 1920. \Vlrv bring in 1914. when thp C~mmis­sioncr \Ya~ not then in exi::.tence ':

l'llr. }1oRGAx: Bnt that .>vas the last vear th(· LibPral Governnlent \\"C·l't_ in vowcr.~

The PREMIER: The hon. nwmber should apply his mind logieally to thi3 question. \Yhate.-er opt'tated before the date of the Cornnii:3sioiH .. 'r\, appointn1ent in reo·ard to i he ~ncrease or din1inution of pricrsb has no lwarrng upon this question. Since 1920 thPro has been a ~teady cU1ninution in prires in Queensland, and at a greater ratio than in any other State in the Commonwealth. The experience in other States :-:-hows that, when the~· decontrolled prices in Yictoria. there was an immediate rioe in the price of food and grorcrics. and it \YU5 the :;:anlP in Xe'v South \\'ales; but in Queensland. in conse­quence of the continuance of the control of pricP:;., thcrP has b0cn a sieadv di1ninution in pric•()~ to this day. 0ven thoui·h there haYe bc:c•n fluduationR. rrh(~ Cominissioncr of J'rirt>;;; in his report sho-ws the purcha.'3ing Yahtt'' of mmll'T, measured in oToeerif'·· in 1920 in the> varion~, capital C'ities, ~nd tbt? value of money· in .JunP. 1923, in the .-arious capital citic's. He shows that in Brisbmw there has bec'n the grPatest illlproyement. In 1920 in BrisbanP it >Yas 40s. 4d .. and in June. 1923 it wns 33s. 6cl.-an impron•ment of 6s. 10c1: In 8ydupy there was an itnprOYCllH'nt of only 33. 4d.; in Hobart. 1. •. 6d. · in Perth, 2e. 9d.; and in "\clelaide, lOci.; and in :i\1<>1-bournl thor0 was ac ually a depreciation in the vahH' of the £1 there. which deteriorated by 2s. 2d. Of couroe. hem. members may sav that there are other contributing faetors. but ±he clear evidPnce I can see in it is ·that the

con: rol of priecs has had some beneficial effect. I do not ,-ant to tax the patience of lHm. rnem ber-3: I only want to put the opPra.­tion of thf' Prciitf'Prin(J,' PreYcntion Act in it., tru•· li"ht. I 1hink it is having the effect

oi 8aYing the llPOple fron1 unduo [8.3~ p.m.l exploitation whieh does take

plan'. not necf'·.sarily in all trades, but undoubted!,. in some trades where there i'3 no rcgulatio1l en· control. Sun~1y, j f it c:\n bo ~hown that a reasonable ancl proper opera­tion of the nH't:_~tnc :; a. ye::; tht' consunH-:>r frotn exploitation in the caP.c of a few articles. and if it works no hardship. cru-.he. out no industry. supprc_h.:'!PS no busine"s, but benefit~ the greate:::t llLlnlbPr of pPople, it can be said to he ju3tirJ(•d; I c8nnc1 l~ndcr tJr.d thC' outcry ngaiuP.t it fr01n the other i'ide of the House. It 's true that the fixing of pricPs ha~. not been carried out so as undnl v to harnpPr the rrinwry pro-d.ucpr. The orga'nisa­tiou of co-opf'1'HtiYe pffort-and greater and greater attcu1ion is bPing gi\·en to the estab­li•hnwnt of poal3 and institutions like the \VIw.tt Boarcl-is baying the effect of protect­ing thf' primary produe('r and ensuring for hirn a fair rcturP for his ronnnoditv. I am sure 1hat.., if the pri1nary producerS gavP a rca::.onab1e 0xpre.~..;io11 of their opinion~. they \YOtdd arkllO\Yledge that tllP~ are gPtting fair 1,ric>L'S ~o far n:-:- 1;ll' {

10ill!lli;;:..,ioncr is conce;·n1 d. The Con1mi.ssjoner doe;;; not desire to han1pcr the farn1Pr in any ,,·ay, and th(' rca;:.on for thP Profiteering Preyention Act wrrs en1 irPl.\· tliffPrent fron1 anything of that natu!"e. Tlw real rea>on whv tlw Aet \YHS pa:;.sed -~~·a:-; the prcvpntion of that undue 0xploitation v\'hich clocs go on, if thcr0 is no regulation or control of conlnlf'l'cial in:::titu­tions. an1ong.-~t a certain section of the com­ll1Prcial conlrrJunlt_,. 'rh0r0 is a growing tenclencv PH'rvwhcn' in trade towards the f!TO\Yth Of honOnrablc nnder~tandings a1nong~t tho~f) en~af!:ed iu it. wh0rehy ihP pri{'es of f"(Jod::; arc tixPd-and not the n1a:xirn11nl prict ~. hut the 1ninirnun1 pricL'S. That is a clear tendPnl'·:. not onlv in this. State. bu1 al~o in other StatPS. aPd "in all other COUiltrie~ of tho >H-rld. It has consiantlv beeu written nbou' 8nd spok0u of. It 1~ ·a, tPndP.ncv tO\Yard~ trade cmnbinatio11:;:. hrn-ing rcstrictiYe opera­tion. controlling retailers and distributors as to the price•., they shall charg<'. A regular svstcm is growing up in the Southern States, f am infonned. and it exis1 s to a certain extent here. of i.ssuing price index lists. No doubt the hon. nwmbN for IV"·nuum knows something about it. and the hon. melllber for \Vindsor abo.

J\Ir. TAYLOR: I ha,-c nC'YCr )ward of it.

At. 8.38 p.m ..

The Chairman of Committees (i}ir. Kirwan, Brisbane) rf'sumed the chair.

ThP PRE;\IlER : :\loving in commPrcial circles. as they do. I thought the:. might havo known of it. ThosP price-index cards indi­eate the minimum rate gf profit th:11 may be charged by a pcr~on selling a given pnc. There is a ful'ther dcYclopment in tlw dtrec­tion of issuing mini1nun1 price ljsts in con­ll0ction with rnany lines of goods. I know that this is the case-not. of coune, hceamo of anv dealings that I haYe had in the com­lnerc(al v;orld-but becau~e it is to :-:.onw extent con1n1nn kao\YlC'dgP.

Mr. T.\YLOP.: Why do you not get copies of the cnrcb ~

The PRE::\I!ER: I could easilv get copios of the cards, because the practice exists itt

Hon. E. G. Theodore. J

8QO Su,ply. [ASSE::VIBLY.J

the timber 1\orld and in respect of Yarious proprietary goods.

Hon. \V. H. BAR:!\ES: The State tin1bcr yard included·?

The PREMIER: ThE. hon. member for Windsor denies the existence of this practice.

:\Ir. T.HLOR: :'\o, but I say that I know nothing about it.

The PREMIER : I am only giving the illformation to the Committee for what it is worth, and I have extracts from Southern newspapers which seem amply to bear out what I say. In Victoria-which is .. I sup­pose, the principal manufacturing 8tate in the Commonwealth, and which ought to be the cheapest living State in Australia, because it is closelv settled and their transportation charges ought to be, and no doubt are, d1eaper than ours--

Hon. W. H. BARNES: That applies only to some lines.

The PREMIER : I say that generally the cost of living ought to be cheaper there because of the natural adyantage., they have. Victoria is more closely settled than Queens­land, its cost of transportation ought to be cheaper, and it has other advantages; but, as a matter of fact, in Victoria the cost of living of a normal family rose by 6s. per week during the June quarter of the year, as compared with the first quarter of the year. The Melbourne " Age" makes this (·On1ment-

" This may not seem a great deal to the lordly profiteer basking in affiuence, but to the thousands of unfortunate folk who live perennially on the bread line, it means absolute personal sacrifice."

A recent Southern Press report states-" ·with regard to the profiteering out

of the people's food and ordinary neces­saries, Parliament should take immediate and stringent steps to bring the moral law and the criminal law into closer conformity. Until it does, the Aus­tralian people should understand that they are being controlled, not by respon­sible Governments, but by rapacious gangs.''

I want to make a further quotation from thP Melbourne "Ago" of the 31st August last-

" When the household<>r considers the freedom in which combines prey upon public. it is hard for him to resist the thol'zht that there arc sound friends to those organisations in both the Federal and State Piirliamcnts. and in both political parties. The combine, figura­tively speaking, uses its slingshot upon the defenceless consumer, and rifles his pocknts. whether he be out to buv neces-Raries or luxurieR. ·~

"The party that is in power in the State may be sheltered to wme extent b~ an electoral distribution that is an odious and flagrant fraud upon repre­sentative government."

The " Age " of the clay before, 30th August, said-

" The days of honourable competition between tradesmen seem to be over. Then the consumer was dealt with fairly. Kowadays he is simply robbed right and left, and Governments seem to be power­less to help him. It matters not what commodity· is in question-whether it· is

~ /L:m. E. 0. Theodore.

tobacco, beer. groceries, bread, or any of those thinge which are necessary to civilised life-the public is the ' goat' everv time. The bovcotters are allowed to carr;c 'on their 'nefarious practices without let or hindrance. True, they do not carry them on in the open-they are too ashamed of their methods-but they carry them on just the same. They do not care \vhether they rob the public or take awaY a fellow tradesman's lh·eli­hoorl. It· doe, not worrv these modern pirates whether the public is deprived bv them, or the tradesman loose'. business and starn s 'l'hev would not care if all o.bout them were, strewn the corpses of victims of their rapacity. Their god is money, and their passion dictation and persecution.''

The :;;m ne C<xtract goes on to say-" There is a Federal law designed to

deal with 'uch bodies, and if that be not sufficient to break up this commercial piracy, the sooner some effective mea­sure. State or Federal, is passed the better."

am <1uoting this to show that the Mel­bom·ne "Age "-which cannot be looked upon as a Labour or socialist or reYolu­tionary organ, but an impartial investigator of these things-speaks in strong language of them, and indicates the necessity for repressive l0gislation, such as we have operatinc; successfully and rationally in QueE·nsland, but which in my op1mon is s<> illogically attacked by hon. members opp<>­site. The Mdbourne ''Age" of 3rd August, in the course of ,vhat might be called a c-rusade agaiBst these practices, said-

" Is it not time that the Common­wealth Government took definite and decisi\'(' action to curtail t.he vicious pro­fJtcering which is being practised? Almost everv branch of trade concerned with the sur)ply of necessaries of life to the public is made the domination of combine'. \vhich seem to have a clirect dispensation to plunder the people at their own sweet will. Throughout the city and suburbs-indeed throughout the Commonwealth-there is such a marked similarity between the basic prices chargPd, that householders have long since come to the conclusion that prices arc arbitrarily fixed by associations of Jnanufactnrcrs. ·wholesale merchants and retai]Prs. \vhich peremptorily forbid mem­bers to sell belov; the ordained rates."

That is what I have alleged. The extract goes on--

" This dc>plorable condition of affa.iu is a l<'gacy of the war. It should have died \Yith the \Yar. but instead it has continued to flourish without exciting the attention of the Governments which arP Hlpposed to be the guardians of public rights and interests.

" According to the latest official figures, the cost of living is rapidly increasing, particularly in Victoria.

"The producer, who does the greater part of the \\ ork, has all the risks ; the· retailer, who merely undertakes delivery, gets most of the profit."

" A ron111arativcly few 1nen keep farnwrii and wage-earners at work to build up their pri\·ate fortunes. Let. wa g-<'s rise or fall. let the seasons be good

Su1 i ly. l6 SEPTEMBER.) ."upply. S9l

or bad. there is another excuse for put­ting o11 the screw as squeezing out a few Cl! J .. ·' p nee from the earnings of the Iwlplcss.''

The ::\Ielbourne " Ago " of 6th August, 1923, say~---

" While all over Australia the cost of liYing is increasing Victoria is in special measure suficrin". To the extent that the G<Jn•mment- stands passively by it IS culpable. ::\0 rational, self-respecting indi,-iJua! would mceklv submit to be shorn. ::'\'either should ·any such com­mumty. The hope that after the war pricu would return to normal was widely chc·rished. The hope will never be r<•aliscd >vhile irrcspDnsible and insati­able tl'liding combines are permitted to tamper with the economic machinery of the country by setting up purelv artificial barriers between producers 'and con­sunters.

X!r. illoORE: Do you know what they are talking about?

The l'REYfiER: They >vore talking about profitN·ring.

l\Ir. MoO RE : They wore talking about the butter pool. That is what that article was written about.

The PRE::\HER: The hon. member who mak<>s so light of a thing of this kind ought to be as willing as I am to pwtoct the J.lrople from exploitation.

::\ir. :\loO RE : I read that article before.

The PRE-'vliER: Then he ought to endorse my remarks and not cast any ridicule on them. I bring this matter forward not in any carping spirit of criticism of the policy of hon. members opposite or >vith a desire to J_JHtke capital at their expense, but to JUsbf~ the GoYcrnment's policy of control of prices where that is necessary to prevent the people from exploita'tion. That is the only rc.ason for it, Surely hon. members opposite will not consider that it is illo~ical or irra­tional for any Government to ~nd<>avour to protect the consumer from priYate combina­tions of capitalists, or con1n1ercial men or trad('rs_. or. conunission agents, or any on~ of that kmcl If they arc extorting undue pro­fits at the c•xpenso of the people. \Vhat we are_ doing is not to d0pri.-c the legitimate bwmicss man of the opportunit~· of getting a roas0nable profit out of hi> business. Ho is entitled io that. tho same as any other workor in the comn1nnitv; but he i3 not cntit!Nl to aosociatc with" those who !0vv a sr•c-rPt t;na tion on the whole of the people. Th11t undoubtedly i> what is happening in Victoria. The :\lelbourne "Age" says-

,. If would be humiliating confession of impotence if the Gm·ernment of this ~-Yel~~organis0d COlnmunitv could not e, nlve some means tD check the strength and growth of this grossly ~elfish trading odonu.;:, Goyernn1cnt's pri1narv function is the protection of the citizen. That function the Australian Government is not, in this matter, performing. That eo m bi1ws are> operating is undeniable; the finger could in certain instances be ]Jointed at the culprits. Meantime thcv an' acting within the law of the la.n<i', anr! so far safe. To the appeal of the moral law they are. of course. quite insensibk•. But with regard to profiteer­lllg out of the people's food and ordinary

necessarie~. Parliatncnt should take in1n1e­diatc and stringent steps to bring the moral law and the criminal law into closer cDnformity. 'Cntil it does, the Australian people should understand that the: are being controlled not by respon­sible GoYernrnents, but by rapacious gangs.''

There are other ,-ery appropriate quotations, but I think I have quoted extensively enough fl·orn onn ne"·-)paper on this question. I ha.Yo a quotation fron1 '·The ~\u.stra.Jian Grocer/" which reprL <cnts the distributors in the Southern States, which bears out what I stated-that there arc organised attempts to fix high artificial prices at the expense of the cminnuJ,it\' n11d whirh return to those who fix the J'n·icc an undm• profit at the expen''" of the con,umer. This is what that journal ~ays-

" Thr following manufacturers have informc•d the Grocers' Association of Victoria that thev have met the >Yishes of . a majority of their cueto;ner3 by na1ning retail prices."

I want to impress upon hon. membc>rs the point referred to in that paragraph. . ~t says that a meeting of nHumfacturers mti­m~ted to the retailers that they had fixed a minimum retail price. Then follows a list of the manufactures and commodities, and what are called the protected prices. They give 'I substantial preference to manufac­ttuers who stabilise the retail price and keep up the retail price. It continues-

,, All attempts to carry on cash and carrv stores have been a failure. The Asso~ciation asks manufa-cturers, ' ... .t\re vou prepared tD safeguard the interests of grocers by makii~g all d~scounts sub­ject to the goods bemg retailed at rates whic.h will permit ordinary grocer, to liYc.' ''

The price ilH•y fix-not a !naxirnwn one --1s not nndcr goYernrrlcntal aui.hor_ity, bnt nndcr the au!horitv of a comlnno. In thar price they . !i'x the minimum ,-aim• anrl not the maxnnum .-aluc. I sup­' '"c tlwre >Yould be no objection to that if thc;;;c n1inirnurn price-; wer0 "fair; bnt it i< 0as·; with a combination elf that ki::d­nHtmtfactnrcrs >Yhoe,-er thev mig-ht be, or ib< own<•rs of a proprietary lino--to fix the nricc a litt]p higher than \YDuld rctnrn '' tair profit to the mannfa£turcr or distri­l.utor as thf' ca~0 rnig-ht bC', and in that easP th0Y bc!'orn._~ a taxin;~ anthorit~ leYylng a. ser·1:et tax upon the whole of the _C'ornmunit~, :rnd no one can stand for that. Ho'1. ;nem­hcrs oppo·,ite are often prone to !awl the Y1rtnt•s of the competitive s.>-sicrn. T'hE'rr> arr• certain thing to lw S><icl in favom of the co:npctitivc s_;·stem. but t-his action._ of llH' con1binp:;: has broken the compehnve s~:stcn1 and th(•re is no1Y no hcalthv corn­J~ctition there. Those CI1gagcd in the trade :1 nri conrwdcd >Yith this nefarious evil get if ::(ether and agn'C to ha Ye no con1pctition. :-;ot only rlo they agree to ha,-c no competi­tion, but they agn•e to penalise anyonr' who \vill not fall in with their nefarious BchE'mc of exploiting the public I will not ]Jln·sue tl:at subject any further, as I could. by quotjng the actual 1novcmcnts of pric~'"' in Qnccnsland ,in cc the Commi,sioner of Price• has been operating. I think thcrr' ic atnplc c,-irlencc to show that. if he has nor elimin­at<"d all prolitccring or fullv protected the pHblic, hL' has to a great mCnsure mnn;:gcd

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]

89:~ SupJly. [ASSE:.\IBLY.] "Supply.

to curtail these· operations. :tud f:RVPd th0

LuLlic from a. ..,rcat dc~J of cxploiLttion, 'lnd, ;t~ a cousequcnce of tLat, tlH' co::;t ,)t footl anc~ gruc •ric•s, at any rate·, is ehcarJc~r in this 8tat0 than in \~ictoriil. '!'\·here they lwYc had a freer hcnd to do '" they liked.

l\Ir. i\IoRG.IX: The cost of ]i,·ing in Qncen.'­lantl \Yas cheaper in 191~.

The PRE:.\IIER : The hon. m0mLer s:1id ~o just now. 1-lo\v doe~ ihat bear on thi.3 1nattvr ':

l\Ir. ::\IorrG.\X: There ltas bee11 a "'.v:tr silH ' 1914.

The PRE:-IIER: There \vrrs o '''tr in \-ictoria as well as in Queensland. This is the point-that in 1920, when the Profil•" ··i:•g Prevention Act was passed, there 1va~ pricL! reg-ulating in all of the Statco. l'<ior to t.he passing of the Profiteering l'rm·ention Act in Quccnsh!nd the Commonwealth had eon­trul of the prices under the \Yar Precautions Act froui about 1916, and there were, in my opinion, undue increas(';;;; in prices permitted by the Commonwealth Government. Som<: lines, I think, v;tere notoriow~ly rais·jd again..;t the public. When the Jixing of price's l'e' ertccl back to the States in 1919, this Act was pr:.ssed. The Comn1issioner of Price~ was avpointc•d in l\larc.h. 1920, and fron; that time until now is the best measure of his succcs.s. You can ~ee the Lrcakdown ln the prices since then. The decrease in price6 in Queensland since that time should be fi){~asurPd as against the trend of prices during the :3an1e period in -Victorja, wh0ro pnfiteNing control cam~ to an end in 1920. T'hat is the tc~t. \Du can take years c u.licr tha;1 that. Lnt they brillg in othee factors wlnch complicate the issue a.nd do nut sin;plify it.

L2-Ir._1 }1~H_G.\~: Since ihC: appoinin1Pil1 of

1JiC Connnl•·SI>Oncr of {JrJct•-.. prwl', haYe it:croasc'd in Queensland.

The• PRE}IIER: The hon. ;ncmbcr is ·wrong. The• prices arc lcnvcr in (iueun~l'lud than in any of the other States.

l\lr. }IoRGAX: As compared with 1914.

Tho PREMIER : Prices are lower now. They ar·~ higher in ·victoria..

J\ir. lV~<YRGA~: The percc.~ntagc incrc[~~u is g!·catc-r rn QuC'cn~lar1d.

The PP.E}llE~: I nm umJ.>lc t<J fo:lo,,­t1w rcnw.rks of 1he hon. mcn1bcr. I-Iis tor-1lwus argnnll~nt, f30 far a~ it can b0 cluei­datrd b,v thP disjointcL1 rcn1arl\:>J hf.? n1akeM, i-> quite beyoud rny conl}Jl'chcll:--ion. :-t.nd l will not a ttPnl pt to pursue it.

ThP hon. rncn1ber a.lso nladt' l'f'fer·_'nC(' 1o tlw expense> of \linisters. I think thr,t I \\ 1\s very candid la:-t vear and the v0ar ~~·lore \vhen givin~ the figure' in conneCtion \Y~t.h those expenses. l\iy 0\\ll c"•XpE'llSPS,

\Y!IJC'h ('u\-cr a LLrgc :nurubcr of itcn1s. :J..nlo~lnt to £876 for the twelYc month,. Thcct amount eove>I".:i- t ht: allo\Yance thnt is rnadn tc n J\Iini~tPr '\d~cn traY0lling-his hotc•l CX]10TJS(';.;;,

n~~\or-car hire, when t~·ave11ipg._ tt1 legrnms, r 'D1L'gTan1s. allowJ.nce tor pnvEJto secrPtary or other a.ttendant whil0 tran•llin~ with a 1\1 i ni 'ter. etc. "

Mr. }IOHGc\X: \Yhat year was that?

ThP PRE:-11ER: Lasl year.

:\fr. MoRGAX: That is not a reply to the nt,Jtion pa~scd by this Hon.sP.

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

The l'REMI l<:U: They arc the expenses incurred by rne .as Prmnier. The figures C:o\cr the rauge of e~q;cnJitnrc l have ruen­tioned. The allmYance only applil'o when a I\linistcr is tra ve~ling· fro tu the seat of Governrncnt. For instanct'. in OctoLcr last 1·ear I vi,it,cd Svdnev and ;,rclbourne to ~ 1 tend a 1nccting" in., connection with the ~~1npire Exbibitio11 oi \vhich I arn a n1e1nber, to meet th(' British DPlcgation \Yhich was 1n cnnsulta .. tion \Yith the Primt' 11 in1~tPr id reicrcnco to fixing the cotton guarantee. That cost £70 17s. 7d. Earlier than that dll'l'e \Ya.:J a Yisit to the :\orth which cost £44 19B. Sd. ; and there >vas a ,-i,it to Bun­dabcrg and Gympie, costing £19 4~. 3·~· A 1.-Tisit to Becrburnuu so1dicr settlmncut cost £16 17f'. 6d.--moct of this amount wao rail­Wi:lv-car hire -£12 15~;.-~a vl~it to H.ock­hai~lpton on 29th January, £10 17s. 4d., a 1 isit to Hockhampton, 11th February, £57 15.,. 3d.; a visit to );orth Queensland, Southern. and '\V ectcrn Queensland from 6th to 24th April, £353 12s. 3d. ; to Melbourne and Sydney from 19th }1ay to 2nd June attendino· the Premier;' Conference, £432 12s. 6d. bThoso arc the principal items which made up a total expenditure of £876. In addition to that, th.ere was certain mntor-car hire charged to the departmental 'hire acn:mnt. This covers my own expenses, which, naturally, arc higher than other f\Iinistcrs because the Prenucr has more expenses ' hen trayclling than othPr Minis­ters, ,,nd travelling to the other Strrtes 16

tLl.'rc Pxlwn:::,ivc. :Ylr. :YIOHGAX: Thilt is not a reply to the

r, -olution that was carried by this House.

HoN. W. H. JL\.R='!ES (ll"ynnum.): The Prcn1icr ha:; not given a reply to my request. OFPO~ITIOX l\IE:IIBERS: llear, hear !

Hm'. \V. H. BAR:\'ES : The information onlv oover:3 the past year. a11d is not in con;pli<tnce with the resoluticm carried by this llonse. l sav deliberately that the Premier-and I now 'lay clown the clml­lcnge-i~ ufrai{\ to supply th~ expense::; ~f IV1inistcr~ genernlly togcth0~· :v1th ,J. cotnparr­f.{J!"l of the Pxpcnscs of ::\llntstprs who pre­l·ioush· held office. and la v tlwm on the table o£ this H Ol!SC. •

Mr. l'EA>iE: \Ye will compare them with Bruce's vi,it to London.

The ClL\IR:WAJ\': Order~ The hon. ntC'lllbPr for \Yvnnum is not in order in dis­cussing the cxiJonsPs of }rlJnistcr"-' generall,v~­On this vote he can on!y dH:Jcuss the expendi­ture of th; Prcrnier.

Ilox. ,.,-_ H. BAH.:\ES: The Premier. in an:::wet· t-o n QUPstion yc~terday, stated that -c.'-rl a in iuformatiun \voulll be given, and that it would be gi>en to-da,•.

The l'RD!ll'R: I caid that it would be dealt with on the Estimates. This is the firot opportunity I ha vc had.

lien.;. W. H. BAR::\'ES: This is a vital rnattPr to the connnunit_:.: as a whole, but. if the Chrrirman rules that I am not in o1dcr in discussing the travelling expenses of :Ylinisters general!~-. I slmll confine my remarks to the Premier.

The CHAIRMAN: If I permit a gencrol discusslon on the c'\:pensf's of all the ~1inis­ters, ·,ne vote will not be discussed at all. If the hon. member wishes he can ask the Ministr r of each department a3 the Esti­mates of his <bpartment are dealt with. for the particulars he requires.

Sap! ly. ,[5 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 8J3

lio>;, W. 11. R\1C\ES: Strictly ,,,eaking, ~fr. Kin.-<tn. YO!!r rulin!:!,· is onitc correct. and l hall · c1vil nt it. ffhP Pre1nicr has 11ot tlw infarnwtion that he E-t<.HP(1 \d' v,·ould !:!:et. I vvant to srq .. - that, whc'thcr tntYcll·lng. Sout1J or travelling to the Olrl Conntry. there ha-- been such an expl'u-~ivc ~' Iini~tcr as Pre1nicr.

'Th' PRDIIETI: Look at all I ha ye done.

Hox. \Y. li. BAH:'\ES: Again and again 'v<: hnv': Pli<ka\-ourcd to get inforruation frcnn the hon. g-Pnt1rrnan in connection \Yit~l ~hf' Cc. pc•nditUl'C in hi6 0\VIl department, and he ha. failed to giYe it.

OrPOSITJO>; ::\lDIBERS: I-l car, hear !

lio>;. \Y. H. BAR:'\ES: What is the con­clu5iOII that \H_' Hlu:-;t couJc to? Y....-car in and year out tu: que:-,tions on this rnatter are burked. and information is not supplied. 1 am JlrC'i •. :red to admit that to-night the PrcrniE'r has supplied the infonnation so If!r a~ la~t YP<l.l" is c0nccrncd. \VhRt is the real"un fo~r his refusal to furnish this I-Iousc and members of this Committee with the infonnation that has been continuallv ask0d. and which it is within their privUE•gc dS

representatives of the people to ask for? \Vhat i:s the n•ason \Vh:-,· the h<Jn. gcntlem r:t has persistently refused to furnish the very excc~~>;.ivc exrwndituro \vhlch hP hiln• olf ha~ practisr•d sir re he became Chief Secretary? 'There is only one answer to it.

Tl1e l'RDUER: Yell have harl it every year.

Hox. W. H. BAR:\"ES: Ko; I defv the Prcn1icr to 1 urn up in the rcrord...: of this IIouSE' wh0re it has been supplied on previotl'· ore a -ions. He absolutely refuses to give the inforiT:ation, because he k.J10'\VS it will danHlgc hirn in the eyes of tho conununity.

Tlw l'RDil£R: Didn't I give it last year?

lio;;. \Y. li. B.c\R:\"ES: Kat ta my kno\v· ]f'dgc.

rrhc Pr.~~}iiEH: The hon. member is wrong; I gayc it to the Home last year.

Ilo;;. \\". H. BAR:";"ES: vVo have again and ag-ain b·icd to get co1nparisons "\Vith the tra vclliug expen:"C's of the Pren1icr and his prcdcr-rs ·Ol'S, year 1n .and year out, cxtendiH_J' from 1910, but he has rcfu't'd to give it.

The l'HDtiER: The bon. member far \Vvn· nun1 i.~ rnaking a rni.--~1 atcrncnt. ~

!Iox. \V. H. BAR::\:ES: I want to eay more than that. 'The Premier himself has said that he '"'as going to g1Yc it--

OrPOSITIOX ::\1L\IBERS : Hear, hear !

Ho;;. W. H. BARNES: He told us that the returns wc-rP being prepared, and as soon as the:-' were ready he wol!ld produce them.

'The PRE:ollER: You are an a very bad wicket.

Hox. \V. H. BAR:'\ES: No; the hon. gentleman is on a bad wicket. He is afraid to let the community know what his expendi­ture has been. He is afraid to reveal, by compari,on, \vhat his expenditurc"has been.

The PREMIER: I have given the informa­tion to the Houf:e three years in succession.

Ho;;. W. H. BARXES: The hon. gentle­man is not going to sidetrack me. We have asked for cer1 ain information in connection with the Chief s,:cretary's Department. and although he promised it would be forthcam­ing, it has not b0en supplied.

'The PREMIER : You are wrong.

Ho;;. W. U. B)d~::\ES: \Ye asked th<1t the infcrmatiou ~hnnld iv_' !2.'1\'t'll. 1·ot onlv for ]a;;:t Y~' "'· l' and the prc•ytClh yc•ar. bui: for prt'( -,,din~r '_.car.-;.

The l'now:rr: It b~s been given fur sue· Cl':';;;in~ year;;.

Ho;;. \V. H. BARXES: It may have been gi ,,-en for two ye :1r ·.

The PHE~ImR: And f0r the previous year.

Hox. W. H. BAR::\ES: 'The resolution that was carried bv this House a>ked that the information sl;onld be 'Upplied from 1910. The hon. gentleman dare not reveal it to th«: public •;aze.

The PRnl!ER: It will not compare with the lwn. lll'o mbc'r for Albert's trip to the North.

Hox. W. II. BAR:.JES: It has been lavish in the extreme. \V 0 know that. when the hon. gcntleme1u went to London, his expendi­

ture was lavish in the extreme. [9 p.m.] 1\o hem, member would object to

rhe leader of the Government spending reasonably. It is his duty to do it. lt is only right that, a' the Premier of such an important State as Queensland. he should not tn:yt"•l in a niggardly way. That would be altogether against the best interests of l~ncemland.

11r. \VELLI:\GIO:\: \Yhy apologise?

Ho;;. W. H. BARXES: But we do say that we arc entitled to know what his e-xpenses ha v-c been. l trnst that the Com­mittc>c will keep at it until we get this infor­mation fwm the Prr•mier. The hon. gentle­man tu-night has been sidetracking other ClUl'stions. I hz:.vc not risen to attack anv oflieial connected with the Goyernment. I haYc no right 10 do that under this vote. and I an1 not goilJg to do it.

Mr. WELLIXGTOX: You arc doing it by iili1Ut_'ndo.

Hox. W. II. BAH:'\ES: The fact is that tha PretHil'r to-uightl C'Y(·n i:1 hi~ quotation::, from thl' •· A~~c," has bvi:-:tc:d thcn1 round.

The Pn1 .:~IEH: The hon. nu~mbcr i.., wrong in Dl<J.killg' thaL accusation.

Ilo;;, \Y. II. BAR:\ES: The hon. member for Anbigny made a clPlihl•rate ~tatcrnent in l'<',; .. ::ard to tlw butter pool.

The PRom:n: The hon. n1cmber for Aubigny stated that jocularly; the extract had ne reference to the pool.

Ho:.~. W. H. BAR""ES: 'The Premier has said that living conditions in Queensland have bcLn cheaper a, a n'sult of the price-fixing. I hold in m:v hand the annual report of the Agent-General for 1921-22. \Vhat are the influences that have becn at work to reduce the cost of living? \Ye have quite a number. The fol:owing is from page 2 of that report :-

" Prices generally shmYed a considerable decrease at the end of the year as corn­parcel with the beginning, due mainly to, the fact that the manufacturers were veq· short of work and were prepared to accep-t orders at cost, or less than cost in order to minin1ise their overhead cha~·ges."

The effect of that is reflected even in the cost of liYing in Queensland, becau,e after all the irnportations fron1 the old c'ountrv ar~ Yerv c,msiderable. I notice that whe'Ct the Prcr~1ic_r was de,"ling with the co;t of Jiving, he msmuntcd that the hon. member for­vVind~'1r and myself were conscious that

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

lASSE:\lBLY.] SII]JJZ:;.

certain prices Yvere fixed outc;ide. \Vhen \ve said that \VC were not conscwns. of that fact, some hon. memlwrs opposite challenged us \\·ith regard to that statement. There may be insinuations thro\vn across the Chan1bcr from time to time alJOut these matters. but I never hesitate to sav ,,-het her . a thing is correct or not, and I can only repeat that I do not know that such a thing is correct. I know that, when the PremiPr referred to "cash 'and carry"-ho probably n1ay have something to do with "cash and carrj," and that mav he one of the factors which help to keep ·down the cost of liYing. I do say that when the Premier of the State and his sup];orter·. imply that men on this side have to do with things which indirectly must be detrinwntal to the worker, they are playing to the gallery. \'\'c arc just as much con­cerned in the adYanccment of the \Yorker as the men who ha.-e lived upon the workers and who are still living upon them. There arc men who play all the time along those lin?s. The workers themselves in many cases reahso that these men are not their friends, becau,e the:v have played on that string too long.

Hon. F. T. BRENNAX: \Vhat about the Fuller Government in New South \Vales?

Hox. W. H. BARXES: Tho hon. gentle­man knows a great number of things about other matters, and he should not worry his head about the Fuller Go.-ernment. Let him worry about some of the things in connec­tion \vith which his name has been associated. He should heal himself before attempting to heal anyone else.

Hon. F. T. BREKNAN: I am well healed.

Hox. \V. H. BARXES: The hon. gentle­man is well· case-hardened. The hon. gentle­man has been so trained that it does not matter to him what his surroundings are.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope that personal recriminations will cease.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: Tho Government claim that, through the appointment of the Price Fixing Commissioner they are respon­sible for the fall in the cost of living, but we know, by the conditions prevailing else­where, that that is not true.

There is another matter in connection with this .-ote that I want to ask about-let it bo understood that any remark I make is not a reflection upon hon. gentlemen opposite--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I would like to point out to hon. members that there is an amendment before the Committee. which was moved by the hon. member for Mm·illa as a protest against certain allegea actions on the part of the Premier, and I trust that the discussion will centre round that amend· n1ent.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I quite recognise that ) our ruling is absolutely good, Mr. Kirwan, and I shall take the opportunity when the amendment is disposed of to deal with other questions. Let me say first that I hope that every hon. member will insist upon endeavouring to get this information, to which this Committee is entitled, regarding the Premier's Ministerial expenses and those of his predecessors from the year 1910. which we were promised. Hon. members have a right to this information, and it ought to he given to the public. The promise of the Premier should be kept. I hope that the comparison is satisfactory for his own sake, and that he will keep his promise not to

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

shelter himself in any way. I hope that, \Yhatcver the l'Pn•lation is. he will be man enough to giye the information to the public.

Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong): In speaking to the vote now before the House there is a little matter that I desire to have informa­t!on upon. In discussing the question I would like to sav at the outset that I take it to be the ambition of any man going into the public service to trv to achieve the blue ribbon of that servi~e.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! Possibly the hon. member did not hear my suggestion that hon. members should confine themselves to the amendment. An amendment has been moved bv the hon. member for Murilla that the vote .. be reduced b:v .£1; hon. members must confine their remarks to that amend· ment.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): 'The remarks of rho hon. member for Murilla and th,e hon. member for \Vynnum in connection. with the amendment are quite relevant, and should have had a fuller reply from the Premier. In reviewing the question which was asked bv the hon. member for Murilla yesterday ai1d the vadous answers which the Premier has given at different times when these questions were submitted to him as leader of the Government, I find that he promised that certain information would be supplied.. Varwus remarks have been made in this Chamber from time to time with regard to the Pxpenses of Ministers. Whi\9 I. say a Minister is entitled to every possible legiti­mate expense, I go further, and say that probably during the last few years since the Labour Government came into office there have been probably more conferences held between thP Ministers of this State M1d members of the Federal Government than previously. ·

Hon. F. T. BRENNAN: Do you think that Bruce should take that retinue home ?

Mr. TAYLOR: I certainly do not think that Mr. Bruce should take such a. large 1 dinue home.

Hon. F. T. BRENNAN: Do vou t.hink that Smator Pearce ehould have· got £8,000 to go to America'!

Mr. TAYLOR: I think, as I have stated ltPrP several times, that Ministers are truoteee of the public funds, and as trustees of these funds, that they should exercise the utmost care in the expenditure of that money, juet the same as if they were dealing with t.hc_,ir O\Vn cash. and no undue or unncct.,~sary expense should be incurred by J\lil"istcrs ,,-hen they go to a conference or vi3it the other States.

Hon. F. 'I'. BRENNAX: Who paid your aero­rJano expenses out West'!

Mr. TAYLOR: I do not know what is the matter with the hon. gentleman, hut I have· never been in an aeroplane in n1y li (c, and I am not anxious to take a trip in one.

Hon. F. 'I'. BRENNAN: I withdraw. The PREMIER: Does the hon. gentleman

suvgest that the travelling expenses of Queensland Ministers at the pr8sent time ar0 cxcessi ve?

Mr. TAYLOR: I am not suggesting any­thing of the kind, but I am srtying that certain definite promise .. were made !oy the Premier with regard to expenses incurred by Ministers from 1910 to 1921, and the hon. gentleman stated that instructions were given

Supply. [6 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 895

1 o the Audit Departmc•nt to prepare thi' information. and that, as soon as he rec£'iYed it. it would be made a\·ailable to hon. L•embers. That has not been done.

The PRDIIER: l would have to appoint " bl atistical branch lo do that.

;\lr. TAYLOR: The i:on. gentlcmn.u said the infmmation would be supplied. 1 do not sec why it should be necessary to engage a statisbcal branch to gPt the information. This House is entitled to the infDrrnation, aw.1 it would save all this bother if the sun-. gc ·Lion \V hi eh 1vas rnade bv the hon tnemb~r for Murilla were carried into effect-that is, that each year in the Auditor-General's rPport the expenses incurred bv ::\Iiniot<'rs in <e·a rrying out their duties shoiild be shown. The allegations that have been made in this Houso have been that Minister« have been {·xlravagant in their expenditure

The PRE:Yl!ER: I do n"1- think that can be ;:;ho,vn.

Mr. TAYLOR: If it cannot be shown, wily not supply the information?

The PREMIER: Because hon. members are only trying to obtain political pahulum.

:V1r. TAYLOR: Do vou thin:< that 1s : oculiar to this side of the House?

The PRE11!1ER: I do not think it is; but why r•ander tc 1t?

'\Ir. TAYLOR_: I do not want to pander :"' 1t at all, bur 1n renclcrmg public accounts tlw fullest possible information should be; oupplicd.

The P:~>EMIER: Tlw information in regard to my expenses has been supplied.

Mr. MORGA:>r: Only for the last twu years.

The PRE:UIER: And the year previous.

Mr. TAYLOR: The Premier eerlainlv Favc a s~atcmont la~t year, and he gwe t!le mformatwn the prevwus year, and I am quite vropared to accept that information. \Vhat we ask for is the expenses of other .Ministers.

The PREMIER: I do not see whv l should turn myself into a search department in order to get the information fDe JW'"·ions yPars.

111-. TAYLOR: A certain motwn was passed 111 th1s HousP, and the hon gentleman saHl th:tt the Aud1tor-General's Department had been mstructcd to supplv the informa­tion. . Whcth~r the hon. gentleman has got that mforma twn or not I do not know.

The PREMIER: I tcan tbsnre the hon. mem-b. r that I haw not got it.

Mr: TAYLOR; I accept that assurance, hut I sny the hon. g0utlClliUn ;.;hould have tln• inforn1:d-ion.

'The PRE::\IIEH: I ,do not think I ou:-r,.'1t to ::>t! a researf'h officer.

::\1r. TA YLOR: I do not think nm ,,houlJ be a research officer. but yoLt are the ~' bo~s. ''

The PRDJIER: To supply that informatir:m would ill\·olvc a s< arch in all d<•purtments for thirteen years back. That is not reason­able. In regard to each of those years the information has been given, at any rate by thP Prt>1nier in regard to his expens,~':l.

'Vlr TAYLOR: If the information has been previously given, it should not be hard. to locate it.

The PREMIER: for themselves.

:\Iemlwrs shoul.l do th,,t

7\h. TAYLOH: The information snggested bv the hotL member for .\1urilla shoLdd UP glvon. It is a very wise suggf:'.;"Uon nnd "'"' that the hon. gentleman shnF1ol take notice of. to have the information sup· plied in the Auditor-GeneraL; report each year.

The PRE:\IIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Cltiiluuoc): The hon. member for Windsor approachf:'d t.hc rnatter in a reasonable spirit, and I think he is entitled to some reply. I see an objection to asking the Auditor­GPncral to publish in his report each year details of my own expenses as Premier or of whoever may be acting as Premier. vVhat does that involve? The Premier is called upon to do a certain amount of entertaining. It has not been lavish under mv own admin­istration or under the administ"ration of any of my predece',sors so far as I know. As far back a;. Mr. Kidston's time, in Mr. Denhatn's t.itne, and in JYlr. Ryan's time, they did no more than a reasonable man in theL position of Pren1ier would do) and no one can charge me with having been extrava­g·unt or lavish or with travellino- round likP an Indian ~abob or anything liJ<e that. \Yhen I have occasion to travel in the South I take surh offiC'crs as are necessary, and the same when I am travelling in the" Xorth or anJnvhere else, and no one can reasonably cm·il at the expenditure. But there may be items of expense incurred that I should be ven- loath to have some audit inspector inquiring into and supplying to the Auditor­General for the information to be published jn the Auditor-General's report and then to ~omc before hon. members who might be looking for mruc politieal pabulum.

1\11-. MoRGAN : Are vour vouchers not audited by the Auditor-General!

The PREMIER : Thev are audited, but the Auditor-General would do no good by giving these vouchers to the public, and I would takP it as a very gross reflection upon n:yself. If I pay a public visit to the Dawson Valle•:, to a Premiers' Conference, or to my own ·electorate, I may have a party aeeon1panying me, and 've rnay have refresh­ments-say a hamper put on board at Too­woomba. and included in it a bottle of whiskv or something of that kind. I would not r;'garcl it as a very pleasant thing to have these vouchers published; yet you will find such detailed itoms in my vouchers, and I have no doubt v6u will fi;,d them in the vouchers of cverv 'Premier who has occupied that position in QnePnsland. Indeed I would achieve a rcpntaiion of being a very mean man if all these things wcr·~ kept out of t IH• vourhprs. I a In not one who 'takes YCrJ great pleasure in lavish large:::-:e. \Vhercver I go I endeavour to keep my cxpc·nsc down. AI the same time there aro items \vhich I \\'Onld not like to have puh­liehcd--not because there is anything wrong in the exp0nditure, but because a Minister shonlrl not be held up to public ridicule, and for that reason I do not think there is any necl''·sity to publish them. I am quite >Yilling to givP im11ortant items of my expen­diture. but T do not think the detail~d particulars of the vouchers should be pub­lie heel.

:VIr. ::\1oRGA:>r: \Ve .do not ask for that. The motion did not ask for it either.

The him~elf

PRE:YIIER: The Auditor-General does not gin' them. An audit

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]

896 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.l Supply.

inspector goes through each of the vouchers and makes a report of his examination to the Auditor-Ger:eral, but it is not necessary for all the details to bo published. If a Premier cannot he trust-ed with regard to thP items, he ought not to be in his position. It is no compliment to mnelf to be asked b, hon. members tD expose every detail of my expenditure.

~rr. :.IoRG.Di: \Ve never asked for that; it is the total amount we ·want.

:Mr. S\YAY::'\E (Jfirani): Before the vote goe,; through, I thin]~ we are entitled to more information than the Prermer has already given. This pxpenditure is a matter of great importance. \V c sec comments from time to timo in the Press upon the huge cost of these Ministerial tours. From year to year when information has l.Jecn asked for there have been counter-charges made by hon. JllPn1bcrs oppositl' since the~v ha_,·e been on the Government side of the House as to what used to be done in the past. It is only right in the interests of the taxpayers that we should be supplied with full infor­mation with regard to large items of el<pendi­ture. The Premier burked the question by asking whethet· a bottle of whisky should be mentioned or not. ~obody asks for such a thing. The basis of the whole discuscion is the motion which was previously passed, as referred to in " Votes and Proceedings " for this session, page 170, when the Premier was asked the following question :-

"Has his attention been drawn to the following motion, carried unanimously by members of the Legislative Assembly on 1st September, 1921 :-

That rherc should b: laid nnon the table of the House a. return ~howing the amount paid or incurred by the State in respcct to the travelling ex­penses of each indiv.idual member of the :Ministry during the years ended 30th ,June, 1910. 1911, 1912, 1913. 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, 1921 ?"

There is nothin&( there seeking to pry into petty details, such as the hon. gentleman tried to infer was the object of the motion. The ho11. &(entleman has from year to year persistently refused to supply the informa­tion. I sometimes wonder whether respon­sible goYernmcnt still exists, or whether we are not under a dictatorship. ·when Par­liament says that a certa,in thing should be dune, it should be carried out. I appeal to hon. members opposite to snpport us in our contention. The Premier has been insulting on previous occasions on this matter, and he cannot wonder that we are beginning to think that there is some ulterior motive in refusing to give the information. When speaking on this subject in 1921 (vide "Hansard," page 447), I quoted this refer­ence which the Premier had made to this matter-

" The reason he did not furnish the hon. member with the information was obvious-the hon. member and his colleagues wasted so much time on the Estimates. They wasted three days on the Commissioner of Prices vote and four or five days on the Home Secretary's Estimates, and then they complained oecause they could not get information. He assured hon. members that he re­gretted not having had an opportunity to furnish them with the information they were seeking, but it was entirely their own fault."

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

It is utter nonsense to speak m such terms­as that. The hon. gentleman could give the information in five minutes. Year after year the Opposition have justly insisted upon their right to this information, but we have been flouted and insulted every time. The whole trouble could be ended bv a few words and figures, giving the information asked for. It is a gross reflection upon the conduct of public affairs if such figures canno! be procured. \Ve are perfectly within our nghts, and I hope that the Premier, for the sake of hrs own reputation and the good name of Queensland, will at last do what he knows he ought to do. If the hon. gentleman were in Opposition

nobodv would be more insistent [9.30 p.m.] than he is to get such informa-

tion. I remember the late Mr. Hamilton. at that time the hon. member for Liregory, moving a reduction of a vote by £1 became the then Commissioner of Police \\as s_upposed to be employing his orderly m prrvate work, and the manner in whrch members now in opposition insisted on their right then, and I supported them. In this question . a far bigger principle is mvol,ved, and 1f the hon. gentleman refuses to give us the information. I hope that the public will take notice, and it will set them \vondcring 1vhy it is tba.t the GoYernmont refuse t-o give their representatives the infor­mation required.

::\ir. VOWLES (Dallnt): In 1921 I spoke on this subject, and now the hon. member for :.Iurilla ha<, mO\·ed for a reduction in the vote as a prokst against the persistent refusal of the Premier to u-i;-e the information to which we arc ent itl~-d, not only as a matter of right. but the House has directed that it shall f!"iYen. All we can do is to enter our emphatic prote."t against the atti­tude of the Premier. \Vhen he complains that \V{\ arc .r1ca1ing only \Yith his Estimates, we can tell him that he ,_·as quite aware that this rnatt<'r was being brouf!"ht fon;-ard, and that in rcplv to a qur ction he said he would give thP information , lcn1andcd bv this side of the House, and that information referred not on]:: to the oxpencli; 1\1"2 of his own depart­rn2nt, lmt cf aiJ J.Iinistors from 1910 to 1921. It is not the intention of anv hon. member on this side ~f the House to pr'y into the small detai\s of the vouchers of :'v1inisters. If you look rnto the reply to the question yesterday, you will find that the attitude taken by the Premier was that the details were being pre­pare-d: but he has siddracked the matter on several occa··ions, and here we find him bring­ing forward the further excuse that the n,atter is too paltry and that we should drop it. I can quite understand it; I can remem­ber a document which once before was before this Chamber. dealing with what was known as ".Johnny's Jazz.''

Mr PEASE: I can remember " George's Jazz."

Mr. VO\VLES: While it would not be a fair thing to ask the Premier to give par· ticulars of the spendings of himself and his predecessors, and although it would take a lot of time. w« have to remember that last session, or in 1921, a private member on the Government side was supplied with the whole of the details of expenses prior to 1912, and if they were available in respect of the past, how much more should details be available in respect of the immediate past? I would remind the Premier that he and his Ministry are custodians of the public funds, and they

have a publir a~ Wl'11 a" a 1noral duty to give an account of their ::-te\varcl~hip. and a fair and bonc5t a' ~cunt of their dealings with the public each. I ask the hon. gcntle­Jttan to remcrnbcr that he is soon going before hi, nia::.tct::-~-the gc'ntlenH'n who lend money ln the old colllltrv-for a renewal of loan'',, and. when they fin.d that the Premier and his rc::'ponfibl, ;,lini~tcrs arc afraid to give to the L'tcctors <' ~:ucenslanJ dlC details of tho L'xpcnditure which they have incurred a1 l\linictor.·, rh· n I submit their financial credit will not bP iruproveJ. because, if they aro a"'han1ed or afraid--,yhichevcr it n1ay be-to give the detail:::, there must be son1e reason for their roiu.sal. If all is fair and above­boarcl~ii tho e.·:pendituro is justifiable and legitimate~thorc is no reason why all the details chould not be place-d on the table, so that nH mb0r3 of the Committee and the public g~-~ncraEy 1nay inspect them. There is in this rna·tcr no diffcrPnce between the Min­istry and the directors of a company. If the directors of a company tol-d the shareholders that thev ha-d incurred certain expenditure but were not prepare-d to give the details, they would not retain their positions very long. :\o n1'1!1 who is in a position of trust i' fair to !timsolf or the people he represents unless ho is prepared to show the whole of the detaiL uf his expenditure of money in the light of da~-. \\' e arc told from time to time that t!tis information will be available, but that it is not desirable to have it, because. if C'Orrlparis :ns arc Il11.dc, the expen­ditun' of the past will not look well in com­parison with thP expf•ncliture of members of this Govcnn:ncnt. \Y {~ arc not concerned about tlw comparisons. vVe only want to get tho information ,-hi eh wo ar _ entitled to han•. and ~11 ,-.-~ can do is to demand it, but the Go,-ernment are either afraid or unwilling to giyr~ it. I support the amend­ment. and I think hon. members on this side arc justified in taking up the attitude that we are taking up to-day.

Mr. J\IOORE Uu/,igny): I •-uggost that the Pr('rnier should carrv out the resolntjon of the Ilouso and see that this information is giYen. It is most r•'markable that thoro should be any hesitancy in gi ,-ing those figures. This inforrnation \VaS given by Goverlll,lf'uts on previous occa:"io~1s. The Pr01nicr is rcr,ortcd in " I-Iansard " for 1921 jn these \Yords-

" I do not want to go into details, but, if the hon. rnernber dc•sires it, it can be donc~much to tho disad,-antago of the preyious ::\finistors. ::\lembers opposite had one ,,uch instanrt· last year in regard to the C\orthern trip of the Hon. J. G. Appel, which cost the S'tate £2,343, but when the question v, as asked as to what cxpPnditure the trip actually inYolved, the information that the hon. gentleman gave when Home Secretary disclosed only about half the expenditure actually ineurred. Far better to withhold informa­tion than give inaccurate information. There is no objection to the motion being carried if it is made to include the years of office nf the previous Administration­say, from 1910 to 1915."

'!here was no objection raised to that infor­mation being given. The Premi·?r cost an tmpardonable slur of! thP previous :VIinistry by stating that the figures would cowpa.re unfavourablv for that .Ministrv if thev wero tn hied. \V,hen a slur like that is possecl, it is only right that the Premier shoulu carry ont his ;uggestion. I do not want detail',

1923-3 E

891

and I do not want to ca:-;t any suspicion on a;•-.-bodv. I oni" \Yallt to kno\v \vhat expenses ho\~Tc Lll~Cn iucu~rcd bv the va.riou:-, .1.\lir_istE'rS frorn tirne to tinw. 1: presurrw the Pre1nier does Eot 1nca11 to in<Sinua ic 1 hat he- cannot j usti£:, the expenses. They were asked for­,t~H~ giveu when he was in opposition. I ( .: 1mot see any reason for 1vithholJing sorne-11ting that should s~o the light of day. There Ct1~1not be any adv..__r~H~ crit]cism. if everything ;, right. If ehrything is not all right, the 1 r:plo have a rig1lt to knov;. l ~uggeet that the J)rcn1ier carry out his sugg,et>tion of 1921, aml allow the people to decide whether the funds haYo been honestlv and fairlY adminis­trrred. If the expend1tul·e has been exces.eive, then the Government should take the onu,. on their own shoulders and not hide behind the statement that it will take too much time to prepare the ,information. \Ve do not want (ktads. . Ho~. W. H. BAR:"'ES (TVynnum): It is pc·rfectly clear from '' Hansard '' that the 1nforn1ation was given on previous occasions.

The I'REOI!ER: Occasionally. Ho~. W. H. BARNES: It was given m

Dl4. The PREMIER : T.hat was one year.

Ho~. \Y. H. BAR:'-<ES: l\lr. Fihe!!y wa& in opposition, and he asked a question which n as amwtred fully. It is no use the hon. ~~untlcn1a-n trying to sheltf=-r himself ia the '""Y in which he is doing to-night. I \Hot<> t•J the department myself and asked d"em to furni~.h n1e 1vith particulars of rny O"\Yn

t':q•enscs as a 2\Iinistor Gf the Crown, and tlw cxpcnces connecte-d with the Chief Secre­hry's Department. The reply I got was a 'idetracking ·one. Finally thev wrote tv me furnishing me with the part'iculare of my o" n expenses, which l already had, and refusing to furnish the expenses of z,t,hor :\linisters. T.hen I wrote to the Auditor­r:•.•neral and tried to get the informrrtion from him. It is perfectlv certain that the Pretnier or sqmcoue in his deparhnent fur­ll'diCd the hon. member for Gregory with cenain information with regard to the hon. member for Albcrt when he was Home Secre-1" ry. The hon. member for Gnoo-ury was ·,_bJe to quote the details of the expenses of I JJa.t hen. gentleman. The Premier hno said 1 hat \Ye want to know every detail in con­I:tdlOn with his expenditure. We do not. \\'e are not asking for that at all but we a-.k ·what the hu-l1p sum i". \Ye af,l~ed what t~e cxpendiuro \vas in 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, LJJ.4. and 1915 in connection with the Chief :,0._:-rctar.>'s Department, and the Premier pornised it. How will the effect of keeping it back appeal to anyone? It lead3 ue to rmne to this conclusion-and it is correct­~.nd it is only the hon. gentl~man who can give ,ne answer to prove that 1t 1s not correct~ that the expenses have been so great that he IS afraid to furnish it. It is no use the PreJ?ier shaking his head. I challenge him to-mgh~, a~d charge him with being afraid !o furmsh the expcnd1ture of his own depart­liWnt smce he has been a Minister, and since thr:o Govcrn1ncnt which he represents bave !wen in power.

The PREMIER: You nre very reckless in your challenges to-night. Ho~. W. H. BARNES: I am not. Here

is the :premier .sitting on the front bench nnd saymg he w11! not giYo the information. The community outside will sa v he j.g afraid to give it the light of dav. ·The Premier knows that is the reason, and he cannot deny

Hon. W. II. Barnr.s i

LA;:;SE:\IBLY.J Supply.

it. A comparison of the expenditure in connection with the p0riod from 1910 to 1914, both years inclusive, >vill show that during that period the expenditure of the Chief Secretary's Department under this head was vcn· mc'tch smaller than it has been sine£. Th~ Premier in refusing to furnish the information shows that the Government have something which they do nDt want to disclose to the public. That must be the answBr to the refusal to furnish the Com­mittee with this information.

Mr. H.OBEH.TS (Hast 1'ooll'oomba): We haYe to recognise that the position we find ourselves in to-niil'ht is largely attributable to the action of the Premier in the previous yea1·. Time and again questions have been asked as to the items of expenditure. and thcv have been withheld. but ultimately, after continual pressure, the Premier said, " I£ vou are prepared to ask for a series of ye~1·s corresponding- to the years the pre­sent Government held office, we will have the information compiled." The Opposition accepted that suggestion, and wer.e expect­ing to see this expenditure of members of the present Government, together with that of their predecessors, tabled. From time to tirr1e it was promi8ed, until quite recently. I agree with the hon. member for IY n1num that. unless the information is fo;·thcoming. {here must be something in connection v-;ith it which Ministers are not prevared to disclose. The Premier made the suggestion-not the Opposition-that the Government were willing to table a list of exvenditure, provided that the expenditure fvr a similar period Jlrior to their accession to office was tabled with it. Time and again we have asked for that information, and time and again it has becm refused. In 1918, Jl.1r. Butler, the Government member for Lockyer,. asked the question-

" \\'hat >vere the expenses of the ex­Premier, tho Hon. D. F. Denham, and staff, during his tour through :\'orth Queensland during 1913? "

\Ye do not find that that question had to be rq)ea ted time after timD, session after ses­sion. It was anS>vered next dav. That sho•ved that the information, SD far as Mr. Denham was concerned. had been left at the office and was available.

Hon. F. T. l3REXxAx: What was it? iHr. ROI3EH.TS: I will giYe it. The

Pn.-..mi·cr replied-" The expenses Df the ex-Premier (the

Hon. D. F. Denham) and staff during his Northern tour from 31st March, 1913. to 6th May, 1913, were £655 10s.''

lion. F. T. BREXXA).T: They were very rca:-~ona b]c.

:VIr. ROBEH.TS: We are not questioning thou. That information _,·as given to hon. gentl0n1r-:n \vho to-night and se,.:sion after se~sion have refused to give a return of their expenditure.

Hon. F. T. BRExxAx: The Premier gave it to you.

1\Ir. ROBERTS: The Premier gave nothing of the sort, and I am surprised at the rc·marks of the Assistant Home Secretary. The Premier only referred to £700 or £800.

Hon. F. '1'. BRExx.\x: £800.

1\Ir. RODEH.TS: We arc entitled to know the c.ast of the various exrwditions around tlw countrv.

Hon F. ·T. BRE~xAx: He told you.

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

Mr. ROBERTS: He did not tell us. \Ye have to recognise that we do get statements -we have the Auditor-General's retmn hero dealing with the Premier's visit to England. I want to say for the Opposition that we asked for similar information to that. \Ve do not want to know, as the Premier has said, that he bought a bottle of whisky or a couple of packs of cards on the way to ToowDomba. \Ve want some idea of what the trip cost, and the general expenditure of public money.

:Mr. SW\YNE (Jiirani): I wDuld like to point out that only yesterday the Premier gave us to understand that this information was to be given. Before the vote goes through I wish to state that year after year he has been promising to give us this infor­mation. If he refuses to do so now, he most certainly breaks his promise. I am sorry to say that we must infer that we cannot rely upon his word. I know that that is a most serious statement to make regard­ing the Premier of Queensland, but in sup­port of it I would like to point out that the motion was first moved in 1921, and the Pren1ier's reply was-

" I cannot say positively when it will be available. but the information is being compiled. qnd I hope to have it tabled before the session closes."

(Government laughter.) Government mem­bers ma:v think it is a laug·hing matter; I do not think the taxpayers will. Of course hon. members opposite are willing that one man should rule Queensland, and that Parliament should be a dead-end.

GoVERX}IExT MDIBERS: No! No!

Mr. SW A YNE : I do not think that ·their cDnstituents wish them to adopt that atti­tude. In July, 1922, the Premier was ag·ain asked, and he said that the information would be supplied as early as possible. Again in September. 1922, in replying to a similar qnestion the Premier said-

" The information has not vet been supplied to me. \Vhen the motion was passed instructiDns \Yerc given to the Auditor-General and officers were put on to compile the information, but the figures have not yet been received."

These answers were misleading. He said that he would give certain information 'v hen he had not the slightest intention of giying that infonnatiDn. I find again that m October, 1922, the Premier said-

" Th8 return has not yet been pre­sented to me. and I am unable to tabk it. This will be the last opportunity of doing it this >nsion. The matter has been in the hands of the depart­mAnt to cDilect. the statistics, but for ;;:on1e reason it has not been con1pleted."

For son1e rea"on thi'3 information that \Ye are entitled to has not been given. Yester­dav the l'rc·micr said in answer to the hon. mCn1ber who rai~cd the question-

" I sn;-.{gc-st thP hon. mctnbcr should 1·aise the question ,;vhcn the. Estimates are bc1ng d1::;cus·-ed.

The CH AIR::VL\.C\' : Order 1 I wDuld point out to hon. mPmbers that during- thf' last ten minutes there has been nothi,}g but tedious repetition. That is against Standing Order :\o. 141. and. if the hon. member has nothing fresh to ach-ance in support of the

[G SEPTEMBER.]

ca-:L'. I a:·1 ~£raid I shall hn\·e to ask hiri1 t::-J re UlllC hi~ SE'ai.

::\Ir. SiYAY:'\E: I have introduced quite fresh matter.

Mr. ;\IORGA:'\ (Jiuri.Jla): I think I haye the right of reply.

The C:f-IAIR::VLL'\ : Order ! The hon. mcm­iJL•r has exhausted his full time.

Question--That £12,381 only (Jlr. Jiot'{!an's w11, nrlm rntl be granted-put: and the Committee divided-

J.Ir. Barnes, \V. H. Bell

,. Clayton Costello Deacon Edwards Kerr

"'' King Logan

,, Maxwell

An:.s, 1~.

}1 r. }loo re , }!organ

C>ott Peterson Hobert; Sizer .SwaYne TaY for YoWies

Telh!t'S : :Jlr. King ::tnd J.lr. L 1£;"'--l.!L

N"O.E-5, 31. llr. Barber :lir. Land

Bertram l.,arC'ombe Brennan LloYcl Carter ., ::u cC\Hmad Collins 3IcLachlan

.,, Conrov }1 nllan Coopei·, F. A. Payne Cooper, \V. PeaB, Dash Pollock Dunstan Hy~n Ferricks Smith Fo!ey , Stopford Gilday . . '!'heodor~ Gledson \Yeir Rartley , \Yellington Huxham \Yinstanley Rynes Wright Tellers: lir. Hartley a11d }Ir. ~leL"chlae.

PAIR.

,\ye-}Ir. Appcl. C>o-;\Ir. Wilson.

Rcwlved in the negative.

Mr. MAXWELL (Too1cono): I desire to offer a few remarks before the vote goe, thrmwh. I desire to saY at the outset that 1 n n1Y opinion the sucC'ess of any busines~ or of the public senicc depends on a co~­tentecl service. \Yhen people enter a bus.I­ness or a publir organisation like the pubh.c >'en-ice. naturally one of the greatest ambi­tions thev have is to obtain the blue ribbon of the service. I find an item in this vote for " Under Secretary and Secretary . to Premier." I have a very vivid recollectiOn CJf a man named Garland Abell, who occu­pied the position of Acting Gnder Secretary during the temporary absence from the State of the late Mr. I'. J. McDermott, who was then Under Secretary to the Chief Secre­tary's Department. I also have a recoll.ec­tion of a Ycry con1pli1nentary reference ben~g nu1..ck jn reference to the con1petent _way 111

\vhich that gentleman carried out his duties as Act ino· L'nder Sccretarv. I do not know the rca.sot7 IYh}~ the opportunity VYas not gi \~en to one with such excf'!)tional qualification~ '" that gentleman was stated to have of takinp; up the position of Under Secretary, in,tead of somebody else being appointed. \Yhy was the pri.-ilegc not gi,·en to Mr. Abell of getting the blue ribbon of the department? I find that he was transferred to another sphere of acti.-ity. \Vhile I realise that the salary for the position he now occupies is greater than he previously recciYed, still it slwuld haYe been possibl<> for him under ordinary conditions to obtain .£800 instead

of £600 per annUlYL I a111 not saying a ,,~ord agaimt the present occupant of the position.

The PllD!IER: Tlw oncstion is: Do you think the most witable !mm got it?

Mr. MAXvVELL: The gentleman \Yho pre­viously acted in the capacity of L'nder Sec­retary did his \vork so well that on a previous

occasion in this :House he got a [10 p.m.] wonderful amount of praise from

members on both sides, and it seems to me that. if be was competent during the alJsencC> of the Premier and the Gnder Sccretarv from the State to do the \York in such a ,;-ay as to receive the congratulations of members of the House and of the Govern­ment. surely he was competent to carry out the work of the rncler Secretary permanently. I have heard the Premier say that every opportunity should be given to the man on the lowest rung of the ladder to rise to the topmost rung, and that it is only a fair proposition with respect to the public service, otherwise it is apt to become a dissatisfied and disgruntled service. 'What is the good of any man trying to fit himself for a high rank if he is to be pushed out of the position and wmebody is to be brought in from out­side to fill it? I think it would have been far better if the appointment had been given to the man who was carrying out his work eo well. The Premier ought to give the House the reason why the change was made.

The PRE}I!ER : Just this-that the most suitable man was selected for the position.

Mr.· 1\IAXWELL: I suppose I must be satisfied \Yith the answer, because certain questions have been asked of the hon. gentle­man in the past and we have had to put up with his replies. However there may come a time when we shall be able to get more satis­factory information.

Mr. ::VIGORE (A ubion!l): The Premier a little while ago made statements about the fixing of prices which were rather mislead­ing. He said that the Commissioner of Prices did not fix tho prices of bran and pollard.

The PRE}IIER: The hon. member for Murilla was blaming the Commi"ioner for tnc high j)l'lC83.

Mr. MOORE; He is responsible. and I shall explain the reason. The \Yheat Board fixed the price of wheat. and the Commis­'ioner of Prices fixed the price of flour and there was no margin in bet\veen. Conse~ quently there was no alternatiye for the mills but to fix the prices of bran and pollard so hig·h as to enable them to carrv on.

The PR!DIIER: That is a criticism of the vv"heat Board, not of the Commi~sioner of Prices.

Mr. J\IOORE: If the Commissioner of Prices fixes the price of a commoditv and the Wheat Board fixes the price of wheat, it is absolutclv essential for the mill also to fix prices. ft amounts to exactly i he same thing r~s the Comn1issioner ,fixing the price.

The I'RE}IIER : The criticism was directed towards the Commissioner of Prices and not towards tho \\"heat Board.

Mr. MOORE : The Wheat Board is open to cri tic ism Just the same. On the Downs the price of Ycheat is fixed at Sd. per bushel higher than in Brisbane, consequent!;. the mills are coming down. to Brisbane.

Hon. F. T. BRENKAK; The seasons fix the price of bran and pollard.

Mr. ::\IOORE: They do not. though they have something to do with it. The Commis-

Mr. Moore.]

900 [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

sioner of Prices prac1ically fixed the price of those commodities. The Premier said that the Act was not intended to operate harshly against the primary producers. I know that at the present time the Commissioner is not fixin!' the prices of butter and cheese because· that has been taken out of his hands. but we ,cl] knmy pe:·fectl~· '.\ <'ll what the <'!feet "os before it was taken out of his hands. The Butter Committee in Queensland, in their annual report. said that £242,000 had been lost to the dairymen in Queensland because of the price-fixing, which prevented them getting the price ruling in Nc•Y South \Vales.

Mr. \V. CoonR: That statement is not true.

Mr. l\fOORE: I am quite prepare-d to take th!' work of the Butter Committee of Queens­land, who are experiencec! men, rather than the word of the hon. member for Rosewood, who knows r:othing about it. That commit­t<?e issued a statement which was circulated throughout Queensland. They would not have done that if thev had not had correct information at hand. - The hon. gentleman mav excuse the Government for what has happened.

Mr. \V. COOPER: I know the statement is incorrect.

Mr. MOORE: I know that, if the people had been allowed to send their butter to New South \Vales, m to obtain the price in Queens­land that was ruling in New South \Vales, they would have got more money.

Mr. \V. Com-ER: They did not get as much for the butter in New South \Vales as they did i:1 Queensland.

11r. :VIOOHE: The hon. gemleman does not know what he is talking about. He once made a speech in this Chamb··r and did not know the year he was referring to. Here we haYe a rcspon~iblc colninittec making a defi­nite statement. Let the hon. gentleman prove it to bt incorrect if he is able. Just •imply to get up and say it is not true is net proving that it is not true.

Mr. \V CO()PER: 1 did prove that it \YUS v.Trong.

Mr. l\100RE: The statement is capable of proof, and I ask the hon. member to dis­prove it. I would like to c:mgratulat' the Premic•r on getting rid of the main portion of the department in connection with the Commissioner of Prices. In my opinion, it is absolutely of no use, and has never been of any use. I would like to quote the report of the Agent-General-who was once a Cabi­net Minist<?r-to show what effect price-fixing has in connection with primary products. The Agent-Generctl, in his report, says-

" Price fluctuations have been quite abnormal. Everv time the market rose it rose too high, 'and everv time it fell it fell too low, a considera-ble element of luck charaeterising selling results. The average selling price was lower than in any year since 1916. Some complaints were received of one or two of the earlier shipments that they were not quite up to the usual standard, but the quality soon improved, and is now very good, our best quality being admittedly quite the equal of Danish or Irish. With retail prices down to 1s. 2d. to 1s. 4d. per lb. in the early part of the year, an enormous con­sumption demand sprang up, which together with large buying orders fro~ the Continent, quickly absorbed the bulk

[.Mr. Moore.

of the old stored stocks of butter, as wel:i as the heavy arrivals. The boom which followed in :March, when an advance of about 50s. per cwt. was registered, was partly speculative in character, and partly due to ;m a.nticipated shortage of sup­plies, •vhich, however, did not materialise, for, as soon as retail prices advanced to meet the wholc-.ale rise, the demand dropped off and prices gradually fell."

When you get good S!'asons and big quanti­ties the Corrn~iscjoner of Prices is useless. He can keep down prices in a time of droug·ht, but in good seasons the law of supply and demand operates. The Commissioner of Prices should not operate with regard to primary products during a period of droug~t. I would be glad to see the office of Commis­sioner of Prices wiped out altogether, because I cannot see that it has ever been of dllv me. \Yhv. tlw other nig1:n ·,,, had th-' ho~1. member for Rockhampton criticising the cffice and pointing out that the Commissioner did net fix the prices, but merely followed up after the pric.c3 had already been fixed by other people.

Mr. '\V. COOPER: You have no need to ol,ject to price-fixing if the Commissioner has failed.

Mr. MOORE: Whv should we keep a useless department going, when it is of no value? That is what I object to. The Pre­mier is getting rid of it gradually, and it is a verv useful step for him to take. We know perfectly well that the position to-day does 110t warlt interference bv tho tiovernment in fixing the prices or distributing commodities. This policy has always b!'en a failure, and ha" tended to raise prices in 'very instance in cyerv State. I cannot Sef' any advantagf' that has accrued. ·

Mr. \V. COOPER: Do vou s~tv that price­fixinn: has a tendency t~ raise- the price of products'!

1\Ir. l\HjOHE: It has done so with some of them.

Mr. \Y. COOPER: Then you object to the primary producer getting a higher rate for his produce?

Mr. MOORE: I object to price-fixing being re,ortcd to in drought time to keep prices down, and in good times it is of no effect. Let the Commissipner of Prices in a good season fix the price of a primary rroduct and see how many will stick to it.

Mr. PEASE: The Commissioner of. Prices is not fixing the price of butter to-day.

Mr. MOORE : Because it was taken out of his hands.

Mr. PEASE: See what a mess the mar]<:et lS Ill.

Mr. MOORE: If the hon. member for Herbert will go into any dairying district he will realise for himself why it is in a mess. Unfortunately he sits here and pre­tends he knows something about it.

Mr. PEASE: Business mismanagement is the cause of the present state of the market.

Mr. MOORE : I permit the hon. member, who represents a sugar district, to have his say, and give his explanation on that ques­tion: When it comes to a question we are interested in and what we have to make a living on, we should be allowed to state our opinion as to whether price-fixing is the· success it is claimed to be, or whether we

Supply. (6 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 901

•uffer by it. Because a. supporter of the Government says that my statement is incor­rect, it does not mean anything.

Hon. F T. l3REX:-i\N: The farmers admit they are better off under this Government.

Mr. \V. CooPER: And they admit they are better off under price-fixing.

Mr. MOORE: To-dav the Government have 1,400 applications f;r relief from those engaged in the farrning industry, and they have had to discontinue giving relief. The farrncrs arc in ~uch an unfinancial position that they cann1Jt carry on.

Hon. F. T. BRENNAN: An act of Provi­dence. You will be blaming us for the position that has arisen in Japan yet.

:V1r. i\100RE: I remember a speech delivered by the hon. gentleman at Mary­borough, in which he wanted to deliver an ultimatum to Japan, and if they did not agree to his demand, he wanted to blow their ships out of the water. (Laughter.) I congratulate the Premier on gradually getting rid of what I call a useless encum­brance in the office of the Commissioner of Prices. The Premier quoted extracts from articles appearing in the "Age" but other articles in the same paper point 'out that the prices of to-day aro due to price-fixing and Government interference. It gives a whole column of instances of where Government il!terf~rence has increased the price of com­modities and caused difficulty in their dis­·tribution. That is one of the chief troubles to-day, and no Commissioner of Prices can alleviate it. It is no use getting up in this Hm<:se and giving half a truth to the people outside. Let them understand the position. If the prices of certain commodities are high, and the Premier wishes to refute my con­tention that that is due to the action of price-fixing, let him state what price was fixed. W o know that the people in the country arc paying ~d. per loaf more than the people in Brisbane, and we know that a flour mill has had to dose down in the cou11try and r<emove to l3risbane because of the action of the Wheat Pool and the Cam­missionet of Prices fixing ~ higher price for flour than in Brisbane. That is , position we should not tolerate. \Ve should eucourage the establishment of industries m ;he country. Tf that was done, instead of conccutrati11g them iu Brisbane, it would be lwttcr for the State.

Mr. MORGA~ (Jlurilla): The Premier hac Ntdeavoured to show that 1 made a mis•tatement to-night when I stated that tlw Commissioner- of Prices was ro­"l'onsibl~ for the in~reased prices of the by-products of wheat, such as bran and pollard. What I said was perfectly true, and I do not withdraw one word of it. The Commissioner of Prices. was responsible, be­cause he fixed the pnce of flour so that the millers were compdlcd to put extra prices upon their by-products in order to make their operations pay. I withdraw nothing, and the Premier's bomb proves to be a squib. As in numerous other things, he tries to twist and squirm and mislead us. Probably he ran across to the Commis­sioner of Prices, who gave him the infor­mation that no price had been fixed for bran and pollard.

~Jr. KERR: The Commissioner would de­dine to do so if he was asked.

Mr. MORGAN: I made it as clear as pos­~iblc that the Commissioner of Prices, in

fixing the price of flour below its proper ,,alue. assisted the city people to got the benefit of cheap flour.

Ho11. F. T. BREXx.\X: Inferior flour. The PBEl\IIER: The hon. member is again

wrong, for the Comn1i:._,.sioner of Prices has not fixed the price of flour. It is not regu­lated.

Mr. MORGA1\': The price has been fnc>d; the Premier is trying to quibble again. The Wheat Board fixed the price of wheat, and that influenc-ed the price of flour; but the Conunissioner of Prices also f-ixed the price of flour, and he fixed it below its Yalue, causing the miller, who had given 5s. 6d. a bushel for the wheat, to get his profit out of the by-products.

Hon. F. T. Bm:XNAX: Flour Is not regulated.

:VIr. i\10H.GA:\': The bottom has fallen out of the hon. gentleman's argument. The case was just the same in connection with the decontrol of butter. \Vhen it was seen that a big quantity of butter was available, the Government had it decontrolled, because they saw there was going to be a glut. They got information that there was a glut of wheat and tried to get rid of flour. My remarks were quite true. and I do not with­rlraw them in any shape or form. The Commiesioncr of Prices was responsible for the price of bran and pollard being above its true value on account of the price of flour.

:'\fr. SIZER (Sand gate): I should like to support the contentions of the hon. member for Aubigny.

Mr. PEASE: The bottom has fallen out of his argument. \Vhat is the use of continuing it?

Mr. SIZER: The Commissioner of Prices controlled the prices of wheat and offal. What forced the egg producers to ask for an egg pool'

::Yir. PEASE: That was after the elections.

.Mr. SIZER: The egg producers had to ask for a pool because the prices of offal and the by-products of flour were so high.

The PHEMIER: The hon. member is wrong, because the Commissioner of Prices has not during the last twelve months fixed the price f..:Y'i' offal. Snrclv thf' hon. rnembc-r < l.ll ~(''~· that the Wheat ·Board is a factor affecting the price of wheat.

::\fr. SIZER: The hon. gentleman says the Wheat Board fixed the price, and the millers abo wanted a price for gristing the \vhcat i11tO flour. t~,nd so the prif'l' '' ,'s ii,l'd.

The CHAIRMAN : OrdN ! The hon. IDcm­Ger will not be in order in discussing the Wheat Board.

Mr. SIZER: I do not intend to discuss the Wheat l3oard. As a result of the inter­ference in t.hat direction the price of offal was increased.

The PREl\IlER: 1'\ot by the Commissinner oE P1·ices.

Mr. KERB: It was £1 per loll more than flour at ont.., ~tagc.

Mr. SIZER: It does not affect the question one bit vdwthcr it 'H·as ilxcd bv the CorrnJis­sioner of Pric0s or not. The· price of offal was such that it was impossible for the egg producers to carry on.

The PREMIER: The egg pool was asked for about six mont,hs ago. What prices have been fi"ed by the Commissioner during that time'?

Mr. Sizer.]

902 Sup.rly. [ASSE::\IBLY.] Supply.

Mr. SIZER: The cause was no doubt mYing to the iYheat Board having fixed the price of wheat. and secondly becaue' the Con11nissionpr of Pric..:s had to al1o·w an adequate price to the millers for gris+ing to CJHble them to get a pmfitablc rdurn.

The PRE\liEH : The Commiseioncr of Prices thtrinfl the last twelve JLOflths has not regu­lated that at all.

Mr. SIZER: They haa to accept a price fnr flour that could not rossibly pay them.

The PRE\IIER : The miller was not u12der a'H regulatwns of the Commissioner of Prices.

:!\1r. SIZER: iYill the Premier say that during the time under review, through the operations of the· ii".beat Board and the Com­missioner of Prices between them fixing the price of \Vh~'at and restricting thC' prict~ th<" miller could get for his flour, the price of offal was not increased?

The PREMIER: Yuu may be right so far as the iVheat Boara is concerned.

Hon. F. T. BRENNAN: Through dnmping flour from the South. That is whv Barnc' ani Company built a mill over the" river.

Mr. SIZER: Through Government inter­ference in that direction it became impossible for. the egg producers to carry on, and !hey had to ask for a pool. 'I' hat is one of my complaints against Governnient interference. They put on a little bit here and take off a Iittie bit there--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. mem­bc·r ca.nnot discuss the operaticns of the Wheat Board.

:\lr. SIZER: I would not hav,, di<S<?ussed the matter had it not been introduced bv the Premier. There IS a connection bet\Vl'm~l the two.

The PREMIER : There is not.

:!\1r. SIZER: Xo doubt there IS a con­u.edion.

The PRE?hiER: The hon. member may ~a.v so, but there is not. The Comr11is.sionei..· of Prices has not regulatecl the pric" of flour. bran, or pollard.

cUr. SIZER: A price was fixed for wheat and fur flour.

The PRE\HER: By the iVheat Board.

'\Ir. SIZER : WhY did the millers form a cleputation and ask "for a better price:

The PRE:IIIER : To the \'\heat Board.

Mr. MORGAN: The storekeeper< can. only sP!l flour at the regulation price•. That 1s flxcd by the Commissioner of Prices.

[VIr. SIZER : GoYernment interference in that direction has probably been an advan­tag-e to one industry, but it. has m<tde condi­tions impoesible in another industry and the ,,,oner we get rid of the Commissioner of Prices the better. I am quite convinced that ordinary con1peti tion is of suc,h a kind now !hat it is the best price-fixer we can have.

Question put and passed.

AGEKT-GENERAL FOR THE STATE. The PRK\1IER (Hon. E. G. Th!'odore,

rhilla(l'"): I beg to move-" That £10,945 be granted for 'Agent­

General for the State.' "

[Mr. Sizer.

This vote is gradual!,- diminishing. The staff has been gradually reduced in order t-o economise. The actual expenditure last year was £12,475.

::Vll". MORGA:'i" (Jiurilla): The Premier has told us that the expenditure on this vote is gradually decreasing. Would it not l1e advisable to wipe out this institution altog;ether? \Ye were told when the Agent­General vvent home that he \vas going to do this, that, and the other, but we seldom ever hear of him. I have read his report, ·whirh i:;; practical in n1any re'3pects, but are we getting value for our money? I do not n1ind s11ending n1oncy provided we get a C]Llicl pro quo for it. If a politician is in the road and the GovNnment want to get rid Df hin1 brcans0 he i~ 1ikelv to be a danger to the existing Prcn1ier, ~he iR sent overs0as.

The PRE:IIJER: \Yould you "cut the painter."

:Mr. :\10RGA)J : This has nothing to do with " cutting- the painter.'' The hon. gen­tleman wants to " cut the painter " by· doing awav with the office of Governor. That is an ~ffice which offers a convenient opportu­nity for a Premier to get rid of a politician who is a menace to him.

The SECRETARY FOR P<.:BLIO LANDS: The other States do it.

Mr. M ORGAN: Many things happen in· the other States that I do not a<rree with. The Government pride themselves u!)on doing original things. They say that they are not going to be guided by other States. and that, if a thing is right, they will do it. The Secrdan for Public Lands savs that other States d;, the same thing. I heard the hon. g-entleman, when he was Speaker, say that the House had "U)n·Pme power to do as 1t likt•d. independent of procedure. Indepen­dentlv of other States, if we are not getting value for the monev spent, let us do away with the position. ·

ThP SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : When we etart .abolishing things you object. \Ve aboliehed the upper House, and you objected to that.

:!\Ir. :-IORGA:\: If the Gowrnment think it i.- ach-isable that the office of Agent­G,,ncral should be continued. let us improve it, because it is no use under nresent condi· 1 ions. I informed tlH' Agent-General of my opinion when he was here. I do not know· ,-lwthcr he \Yill t~ke an.v notice of what I say now when he reads it.

ThP PRE,IIER: \V e will send your speech to him.

::VIr. ::\IORGA:'i": The Premier must admit that it is no use continuing the office if we do not get value for tlH.1 n1oncy Fpent on it.

At 10.30 p.m., Th<' CHAIRMA)J said: Vnder the provi­

sions of Standing Order No. 307. I shall now ]pa\'C the chair and make my report to the House.

The House resumed. The CI-IAIR3-IAN reported progress.

The resumption of the {3ommi ttee wa' made an 01·dcr of the Day for to-morrow.

The IIouse adjourn!'d at i0.31 p.m.