Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 2 JUNE 1904

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Address zn Replp. [2 Jnn:.J Questi'Jil. 215

The SPEAKEH (Hon . .A. S. Cowley, He1·bat) took the chair at h~lf-past 8 o'cl<>ck.

QUESTIOX. BHbBA~E \V.n'EH St:l'l'LY.

J\Ir. CAJ\lEHOX (Brisbane Nm·th) r,sked the Secretary for Public Works:-

As a member, e.c oJ!i~_:o, of the Brisbane Board of \Yatcrworks. will he moye t.h::tt board to ~npply, for the iniormation of tile Hont-B. a list of' the sizes of the vari(ms c~a-.t-iron mains in the retienlation of the water sulJply of the city of Bri.~bane: together with the dates w11en :;:nch mains''"'( re severally laid down P

2lf) ChinP1· lul our [ASSEMBLY.]

The NJWRRTARY VOR PFBLIC WORKS (Hon. D. 1<'. Denham, n.'h?') re[Jlied~

I 1JaYe reque-tPI1 the Boarcl r>f l\":tt ·wnrk:'l to furnbh the data desired. whi,_~h will l)e m·tde a"':nilable ~~,, :-(oou !::; possible.

l>:Errrro.'\s. Sn:DAY CLOSI:s'G OF PcBLTO-HocsEs.

Tloe ::lECIU;TAgy li'OH, PFBLIO WORKS vret:JentPd a petition from certain elf".::ctors of Ox1ey praying fol' an arnendrnent oi the licensing laws, so a,~ to arl.n1it of lilnited h1Juts for the cale of li<Juor on Sund>tys.

P<:>ti~iocs of si1ntiar lJUrpurt and ljrayer were presented by Mt-. Kerr (B((r('oo) and .\Ir. Lindley (Wide Bay).

The petitions were recei\·ed.

PAPER.

The following paper, lairl on the table, was ordered to be printerl :~Certain pCipers relative to agreement with li!Ir. F. ,Jones. Government Commercial Agent in the East. ·

REMOVAL AND APPOI:\T}IEJ\''1' OF CIVIL SERVAKTS.

On the motion of Mr. J\!IACARTXEY (Tuo­wong), it was formally resolved~

That. there be laid on the table of the IIonse a retnrn Hhowing the names of all pel':-oou:-~ dnclurling snrJernumera.ries employed tor a greater period than six month~). subject to the Public ServiCL. ~tct, \YllO left the serncc owing to dea.th, re,,ignation, di:smi~~ai, or re­trenchment. bf~twecu the 15th clay of Septembel', HW3, and the l7tll day of :nay, l9fH. and the positlons held. by them re,)pectivel\·; together with tile names of all per~ons admitted to the service hetween thJ same date~. including supernumeraries. and tbe duties for whieh they were respect1ve1y employed, ~ ·larie~~ paid, etc.

CARELESS USE 01<' FIREAR:\IS BILL.

~FIRST READIXG.

On the motion of Mr. PLUXKETT (Ano·t), this Bill wa,, read a tirbt time, md the ,;econd reading made ~ll Order of the lJey for Thm·"day, 7th ,T niy.

LEGAL PRACTITIOXERS BILL.

:FIRST REAT>I:<G.

"On the. motim~_;:t 1\lr. KT~:\.:'\ A (Bowcn), this B1ll "' c1.'.l 1ead a tili:ic t1me, nnn tllt... s~eond re'<""' hnrr made an Order of the Day fur Thursday, th~ 7th .Tuly.

CHIXESE LABO"CE IX THE TRAXSVAc\L.

Nrr. LE SIN A ( Clrrmont) in moving~ rl'hat this Honse empllatically protc~·Ls ag;:dn~t the

introduction of Chinese labJur into the Trn.ll'~Yaal until a referendum of the whi:r: of that eolony has be;.;n taken on the or re~pon!3ihlc ;4'0'\" "~·11-ment is granted.

gaid : \Vhen I placed this nvhon on the bneines+ paper the other day, I Jhti;ered mysdf that it would go as ".FornL.d "; but a::; 1 nnder:-:tand thflt the Premier has cal!,,d "l'iot Formal" to it, I suppose the necessity has arisen for me t•l give sorne rf~.1son,:.; why the motion .':'hould b".! adopted by this A-,sernbly. The reaocmc, which I have to give are, I think, pretty we:! obvious to hon. memb.~rs. I think that although the ordinance empowerinl!' the Tran~Yaal Gon·, n· ment to introduce Chinese into that Briti,h possession has been passed by the Imperial

Governmr>nt, it is no:. yet t.oq late to l'Pgister our protest n~'ainst the af'tion nf that GnvernnlenL VYe \.re Vt'l'Y rnnch intert?:-tt l a-. n 1Jtnple in kt: ~,ing- thifl nt>wly-ncquired rlornininn frt·e, if p<lSsib1c, fr0rr1 the incnr~iun of hr1'-·des of ypl]ow people, '-Vhn, arcorclin~ to ne\Yspapen;, n1:-:ga­zines, and revie\v~, are being introduced to tnke tht> plac·! of nnti\'e labuur, and for the purpo~e of taking it nut of the po> er of white people there UJ obtain }lny large 1neasnre nf emplo_, xnent in the princ:pnl inductry in tra:; St".te. All the States of AustLclia. are very mnch interested in this rrwtter; the FederLil Gov,)nnneut have "lre:tdy taken action in the m:.tter, find the resolution v:l:ich I uow rnove i~ identical word for word with the l'esol'\tion lllO\"f'd by Senator JVIcGn gor, and w hi eh was carried by the Senate. lt may be thought that the Senate, representing tl1e feeling of federated Austrahu, having p~u~-;ed ~nch a, n1nt iO!:l, there is 110 ueed for a separate AuR.tralian Parliament to take any part ,;t tdl in ti,is matt r; bnt I wonld likP to ~note from a recent article which appearerl in "The ContemporarY Review,~' writteu by a me1nber of the Engl{~h House of Common,, in which he ,;ays that althou,:h the Imperial Pm·lia­rnent. has passed thi~ ()l'dinancP, en1powering the Tra"nsvaal Gnvern1nent to iznport Chinese in almost unlimit.ec! numbers to work the mines of that colonv or doruinion, there is :;;till :l neces~ity for the people of Australia and 1\ew Zealand to pro. est against thiR actio11. P.d"i it is, the people in ]\' ew ZealanJ, Sontb Australia, Victoria, and Canada, ha,~e alre•1dy protested against this ordinance, and although the :Feder::d Parliament have done their duty in the matter, as have other ParliamentK, I thick the least '·' e can do in this P<:trliarnent b to also prot<'''t ag~\inst thi, ordinance bein~ assented to by the British Parliament, or at all ev<>nt" to pro]~OSc' that the\· should hold their hands m;tii a refuenrlnm of the wh1te population tbt Te has been t-; ken or resvonsibL governnlent bas been PStab}i:;htd .. I \Vill just make a brief reference tl) what w:'~, "-<nd by Mr. H~rbert Samuel in his ar'icle in this "Revie\v" on this Chine~e labour. He is a Yery rising prmnising Conservative n1ember of that august Chamber~the Honse of Commons. There are one or two pr·int:-; in hi~ argument ·wh1ch I would like t<; qnote fnr the i11fornlat ion_ ,.f hon. rnembers who ha'i'e not n-.:d :his "l{t":vi~~w.;' He deals wit.h the ""rious e.rg-u,,ents offered fr.r thP introduction of Chint- •e ]nto the Tr n~Y . ._al, and points <mt that preci;;ely the · an:e a1 gu­nlentH could be used to jnGtify thP i:1truductwn of Ch1nt-':if> into Queen-::land, ()t' any vthu St<Jte in Austl\llir .. to wurk, ~<Js-·he do not gi \ e thP illnFt-ra.tiorl, 'lmt 1 snppl~· iL-th tin 1niues of Cornwa11, or any other minPs v.rhich con~inu8 to remain undevelopE-d in the l.: nited l(ir.gdUin. He.'ayR~

There are many indnstrie-.. no": mu1evclotJec1, ·wh!<'h by their helv conld be made }tf'tin~ and t'rous.

~;·~.~~~~~~s;1 ~ ~~e si1:t~~:ne;,u~ 1~v~~~~~:~re~~nbt th~~cr;a~~~ Chine~e in >Jousiderable lldmber.-: \Y~rc introduced into th(;se L::-:lalJds a uuaniuwn::; Padiameut. ''Hpported or compelled by a unanilnon~ _public, ·E1ld pnt aside a'l othrr bm;iUF'·.\', would ovPrri,:~ <l'l werc-'Pary :-~r;;n­

mr:nt'.;, would leavr nnr,.callecl the forgotten doctrines of la;,. <::ft .. ,·e econo~11ie~, and wonld hal:ltcn to enforce with the utn•ost. strinueneY the s:~me law~ wluch have been adovtc.t el:-;e,vhcrc in ~e-rery ::<imilar case~

Then he C~dds~

The leading issue. then, ·which stands prominent in this disCHSoe>inn is whetber tlw influence or the British State Rhould be nsed so as to that the temperate regious of the Empire shall he homes of the white race or b8 largely inhabi.t• d by ~Ir1ngolhns. Had the .Johanne~;burg polier preraHeil in Austrnlia, ~ew Ze~~­land, Cmada, and Cape c~,iony, those territorie~ would by now have bceome as Chinl~<" as Singapore or .lava. 11he wisdom of their peo})lf ... forestalled such a con-

Chinese Labour [2 JUNE.l in tlze Tz·ansvaal. 217

summation. The dnn~er has been limited to the ·rnms­vaal, to Rilorlcsia, and to the ('Ooler portiOllH of Xatal. But the vastne~s of those colonies, the po.-:siblc great­ne% ot their tntnre which is in peril. rcnilers the qur:;tir;n, even ~r) timitwl, oE profound importance to the Emvire.

There is one point uprm which I should like to imi · '·. I ha Ye here a rep, rt of a meeting of unemployed, cut from the Cape A>·gus dated 2!Jth J)ecernbet. It giveA an acc(JU•lt 'of the efforts which were being made to afford relief to the unemployed. The meeting was attended by Dl'. Smart, .a l"ading 111au in Capetown, Bishop Rl)UllPY, and. other pron1it1ent citizenR. In the course of the Yarious speec:he.; delivered, it was pointecl out by :\fr. Tiwmas Han·is that-

·~he bulk of' the nu employed was composed of skilled artn:nns. Beggars could uot be chooserf;, and these men tlid not reLglire pick and sho\rel worlc The clas.s of :..nen he knew would not accept charitv. and also would no~ work under colonrPd Jnf'll. It' tlle Govern .. ment s.tarted repl'uductiTe works it wonld ab:o;orb the ~killed labour.

:rh~re is a strong objection among the unemployed :n ~outh Afr1ca to work in c01mectioa with any I~dustry whe;e c;loured labour is emploverl, and 1

t.1e mtrodu:t.wn m to the State nf a large number i of CtnneHe 1~ one of the m, ·st dangerouR action::; that could he take,n, having regard to the future of the State. It has been pointed out that the injury resulting from the influx of Chinese there would not be confined wholly to that State. The ; men who are to be introduced are to be bound ' down by conditions which practically leave them but very little liberty to act without the consent of their employers. :b'or imtance, .:V[r. Samuel says-

The labourers will have no libertv to better their position; they may not enp.:ap;e in any Occupation what­ever, exrept unskilled lahnnr in tlle mines. TheY will have no liberty to reside elsewhere tlmn in V such ll\utrters a~ f~:wir employers may provillC them. They wtll have no hbert.y to tlUit tbose premh;es, nnle~s their employers shall graut- them a -permit-which 1villnot be valid in any case for more than fort:r-e1obt honrs 't'hey Will haTe 110 lihRrt:: to leave Olle mastc~· ir1 orde~ ~?work for another. Thm· are li~Lble to imprh:onment 1t they shonld refuse to work, on aeernmt of b;in<"' unable to obtain rec1rcss of g-rievance,~ or for anY othe~· ca.u::;e. If they c ... ·,eape from confinement they inaT be arrested witll?nt warnt11t, fined or imprbOned. "and ~nyone who .. ~wrbours or eonceals" them is t'-!llall:y lntblc to penaltw~. In the HlHJdesian Ol'lUnance h tbe further provision that nny imported labourer who enrteavours to escape f'l'<)lll the eolon~r without a vass­}Jvrt, or anyoue .dw a,.:~i~ts sneh an attempt nut\" be severely pnnishecl lJy law. On t:.e tcrmiHatio~ of lheir indentures. tbey are to be returned, by rorce jf neces­:-:;arv, t0 Chma, and arr~tng.:ment:-; will b .. made\vi.th the ,·, >lon.'" of Xatal to prevent their EY'a.pe dnring Uw rail~ wa.~· .JOurne_,. or ::-t. the yort of embarkation. It is easy ~o foresee tl~e ch~eredlt to the 1-:mpire tlmt will ensue from the stnngent apJ.;lic,Ltion of such provisions.

It i.s :Jr~c~ic~tlly ""limited or veiled form of ,Javery wh1ch IS ne1ng Introduced, with(lnt the con~ent of the white popul.ttion of the Trar•waal. I think, thereforr·, it is the duty <>£ their fellow. citizens ~n the E1npirr, whether in Qne(~n8ln,nd, nr "j.Ja.on~and, or Canada, or any other part of the Ernptre, to enter a protest againRt the Im­peria: Go,·ernnle'Jtsanc' ioni ng such an ordinance. :::1Ir. SamnL-'1. in winding up his argmnent, points out that-

The issue will not r:,~t wher1. it stanfl:::. 'l'he senti­ment of antagonism to this nwa~nl'l not onh· in I·~ndnnd but aL;o in the g!·eat ;'_;elf-goy~rning colo'uies, a.\ld an10ng larg;e sections Jf the popnlation of the Transvaal itself, is so strong, it rests on :-;uch firm founda~ions of argnment, that the nltnuate repeal of ~~eb~ri~1~~~~~~1~~1d abandonment of the schemP- appear

l regret to say that exactly what was predicted by many members sitting on this side of the Chamber wh8n the late G·overnrnent was in power has come to pa•' in South Africa. \V hen the late Sir J. R. Dickson, ?,t the commence·

ment of the war, moved his nwtinn with rPfer­encA to sendirg a contingent to South .. AJriC<l, the Inetnbers now ~it ing on thi~ side nf the Rouse strongly oppo.-;ed the 1110tioo. ThP pre­Rent Federal Ministtr for Defe,.ce, :\[r. AmJercun Daw~on, spoke very strongl~' agaiust it, as did also Senator Stewart, ~enator Higg~, Sena.tnr Turley, and the members who aro at precent in tbe House of Repre:·e1ltath·e:;::, ak well aR rrtP1n­

hers who are still sitting· in the State Pm·!ia· ment of Queensbnd. They said that the war wa.s undertaken filr the purpn~e of e1labling the mineowners in the Rand to alter 1 he conditions under which they were compelled to e1nploy white 1nen ~Lt decr:nt wages, under decent conditions, and to establish an oligarchy of their own-to ahdish if po"sib'e re.-ponHible gr•vernnlent a:_-; it existed, ar1d a~ it no longer e"ists therP. A Crown colony haH heen created there, with government from D.J\vniner street, and the first act of the Go\8rnment, witb the advice of Lord Milner, backed up by capitalists, is to p"ss an nrdiuancr; to permit capitalists to flood the Transvaal-which cost so much blood and treasure-with an influx of Chinese bar· barians, alien in religion, in blood, in t-entin1ent, in taste, in civilisPvtion, and in traditions, and opposed to e•·eryt.hing that make-< the greatness of the British Empire--to make, practically. this part of the Empire (South Africa) one of the most promising parts of the Empire, merely an ontpost of China. It appears to me that if the white people of the Empire are going to sit down calmly and permit the Imperial Government to do that witho~1t protest, they may go even further, and the t1me may come when other parts of the Empire will be thrown open to an inflnx of this description. I move this motion, thereiore, for the purpose of giving the House an oppor'unity of voting for it. I should like to see it pa~'Sed. I regret very 1nuch that no refPrPnce 'vas nwde to the matter in the Go,-ernor ·s Speech, as it is such an important matter, and one of far­reaching consequences to tbe race of which we are members. As some of the other State I'arliaments have alreacly passed resolutions dealing with the mrttter, it struck me that in a democratic country like (lueensland, with a Liberal Government in power, it is the proper thing for thi; House to clo, to also expr:"s its disapprw. al of the action of tlr • Imperial authoritie,, and to trans­mit the reso!utron to ·the home authorities. It may not have the effect of cancelling the ordinance, but it may ha Ye a far-reaching effect in another direc~"ion. Before long we may have

an Imperial authority apprmtching L4 p.m.] the .Austr·1lian States 'md trying to

make arrangements with them in connection with preferential trade. It is already on the cards that such an approach will be made, and if then they want preferential trnde with us, why should we not lay down Cf'rtain conditions? One of the conditions might be that this ordinance permitting the invosion of the Tmnsv~al by hQrdes of Chinese should be abrogated. If toley refused to accept that con­dition, "e might very well reject their pre­ferential trade jJropo,als. There is another point., ton, jn thi~ connE-ction. The very snc~ cessfu! operatiJ•ns of .Japan in the East. in her conflict with Rni<>ia has raised that Eastern nation to the rank of a first·claRs power, who will have to be reckoned with. It berefore strikes me th".t the time is ripe for the Aus· tralian Parliaments to influenc-1: the Fed­eral Parliament, if they possibly can, to have a reasonable provision made in the present treaty which exists between Great Britain and her Eastern ally. These matters in which the Chinese and Japanese to· day are

218 Chinese Labour [ASSEMBLY.] ~rt the Transt•aal.

beginning to Rhow such remark>tble political and military vigour ought to warn us in An,tralia, and pa1·ticulnrly in Queensland, where there is only a small handful of people scattered over an immense territory, that we are liable to dangers which, though not visible at the present time, may manifest them selves very materially as soon as peace is once nwre proc1aimed in the East. Therefure, anything which affects us in our relation,hip with the yel:ow or the brown people ought certainly to determine our Parliament to take tirne by the forelock and make all possible , ;feguards against th.• danger. I therefore have moved this motion with nn honest desire to enable the House to express an O}Jinion on the question. You, Sir, know that practically right throughout the Empire, public opini•m has been very much vexed and stirred by tbe proposal to intro­duce thosA people into that newly-acquired portion of the E1npire. Religions conventions, representative bodie:-> of religious denomina­tions, e1ninent politidans and volitical societil_.:.-:, self-governing States, through their represen­tatives in Parlian1e11t, in Ltct nJl classes and c nditions of bndie' and indiYiduals throughout the Empire, have expressed their disapproval of this action, lmt app.uently without any effect. It led to an amendment. in the Addne~s iu Reply to the Kiug's :Speecl1 aud tu the G-r·vernrnt~nt getting a Harrow uw,jority in the llotbe of Commons, and I think to a motion of censure ]ater on~ which rnet with a ~imilar fate ; a,nd in each instance it \Va~ ,,_.,hown that a large body of rrleln bers representing the electort-1 of the United Kingdom were opposed to the policy of the (}overnn1ent. ].:fr. San1uel points out that men wh<> offer any effective opp sition to their wisbes-like Mr. \Vybergh, tbe Com­xnissioner of ~IiDts; 1lr. Cre1·swel1, the nut.nagtT of the Village .!\lain Reef Mine; :\k Mon"ypenny, the editor of the chief .Tnhanne cburg neWS!Ktper­find it impossible to retain their positions. Ap­parently the mineowners, hacked up by the nflnence of Lorrl :\Iilnor_ havre been ab'e to

induce the Imperial Government to grant their request.. [Hon. H. PHILP: :\Ir. Chamberlain was opposerl to the Chinese an<l in favour of white men.] The author of this review points out-

The politicnl and iudn~trial position of the It and, and, in some degree, of the Transvaal as a whole, is almost unique. The only parallel tba.t comes to mind i8 that of the town antl dif'trict of KimberleY. A con­siderable European eomm1.fnit.y i" dependel1t-on the Rand entirely, throu;;lwnt the Transvaal very largely­on a single industry for the maintenance of it~ pros­perity. This dependence ll''Cessm·ily t.llaces great power in the hands of the smnll gron11 of men who are tbc owner&, or reprPscnt the owners. of the capital hy \Yhich the industry has been createfl rmd i" now worked. Their influence i~ supreme. Xo law which threatened their inte,rests could he vlaced on the statute-book.

'vVe can understand how these people therefore have no particular de"ire that a large body of white labour should be established in the Transvaal. The grounds on which one or two men like :Mr. Tarbutt, another director of an incportant company and the chairman of the Villag-e Main Reef Company, whv exercised some considerable influence over there, and one or two others, appear to be on the surface that the mines will not pay with the employment of white labour, and that they must have cheap yellow labour because there is an insnfficient supply of blnck labour. Mr. Tarbnt.t, in an oft­quoted letter to 11r. Cress well, says-

I ha Ye consulted the consolidated ~oldfields people, and one of the members '.Jf the board of the Yillage }1Hin Reef has consulted Messrs. Wernher, Bcit and Company, and the feeling seems to be one of fear that if a large number of white men are employefl. on the Rand in the position of labourers, the R-ame troubles will arise as are now prevalent in the Australian

colonif,,-i.e .. that the combination of the labouring Plasses will become so strong as to 1Je able to more or less dictate, not only on questions of wages. but also on political (1ucstions, by the power of the votes when a representatiYe f7overnment is est.ablished. I am only concerned to show that. the refusal of the mineowers to emptoy \Yhitc labour on a large scale on the Rand does not sufliee to prove that such a course i:'; imprac­ticftble. Other motives come into play which amply account for their attitude.

'I'be statement that the mines will not p>ty is distinctly proved to be false. The financial editor of the Economist-no mean authority­writing recently in the Daily jviail, Lundon, gives t-OU18 pa,rticnlars \Vith resrect to di\·idends and share values of mines scattered throughout the \Vitwatersrand. In>teod <~f these mines showing a decreased output, imtead of them being poor and requiring the che ,pest passible labonr to develop them, they appear to be amongst the richest mines upon the face of the e~rth so f::tr discovered.

rrlw total output of gold fwm the Transvaal mines is steadily increasing, lw \ iug ad nmced from seven milions in the year after the \Var lo ten millions in the following year, until it :-;tands to-<lay ~~t Jg million:-:;, \Vhich is within one million and a-hHlf of the output of the record year before the \Yar.

rrhe condition of Vfl'Y many of the gold~lnining corn­pm1ics is one not of f1f~prnsion, but or cxtraonlinary prosperity. I will tal.;:e haH a dozen of them Hnd test their eonJition iu the two most obYions ways-namely, the amount of diviflenrls they pay thc~ir shart'hold.er,o:;, and the price at which tiwir slmre-.; :sta'td to-day in the 11nblic market.

rrhe Crown Rc0,f, from 18!l:) to 1002 paicl an average annual dividend of 1:!:6 1-:) p.c. Its J;:l shares stand to-day at £16

The Ferrena, from l8m to 190:3, 173 1-10 p.c. Its £1 shares stand to-llay at £Hl.

The 'rem mer, from 1803 to HH' J, 13~ p.c. Its £1 ~1HnT·, stancl to-<tay at £10.

The 3Ievcr and Cbarlton, from 1802 to 1903, .J6~ p.c.· Its £1 slmres stand to~day at £5.

The New l)rimrose, from 1tl91 to HW:3, :j61 p.c. Its £1 ~"<hares stand to-daY at£:..: 11-16.

Tl1c Robilison Gol<l.:Hiuiug, from 1893 to 190:.3,10 7-10 p.c. Its -t5 shares staJHl to-day at £9%.

And so on, with eight other leading mines-the riche"t mines in tbat extensive district. These are the most prosperous mines on the Hand. Of course then; a.re many others which are not now, nor ever will be, prosperous. Still the figures I have quoted prove conclusiVely that the state­ment that Chinese labour is necec sary for the working and development of the indnstry is not based npon fact. \Vith regard to theee poorer n1ine·,, the writtr in Lhe l!.,'conomi,r;;t gue; on to say-

But the future po~.-;ibilities of the::-e are not impor­tant enough to justify the crcatiun of a new penalla\v. degrading to human lal1otu, repellant to OliT colon~;:s, and shocking to the instinds of on:.· own people.

\Yllat hHs been proYell 1s that the mioeowners don't want white labour on political a" much as on economic grounds, and that they have themselves checked the supply of black labour by tbeir own folly and mis­management. ::-\till that supply .stF'1.<lil.v grows, a<; the following figures. taken from the Tran"''">al Govcrnmpnt ::\lining Engineer'~ Report (Blue-book !SD5. lJ. 19±) eon­clusiYely t-<h0w-

:Xatives iu the mines.

J~muary to ,JunP, 1902 2+.527 JulY to December. 1902 ::Ll.261 Jariuary to June, 1903 52,4tl7

It has just been :-1nnonnced that for this lasr. month of Fcbrnary there has been an increase of up-w~u·it::.: of 1,100 natives aud I believe:-, the total number working at the present moment is about 70,000.

So tbat on the two ground,-namely, that nati\·e labour is S("1rce, and that the rninE. ~ will no~ pay to '~ ork with anything bnt yellow or cheap labour, the evidence is di,tinctly against those who ad vacate the itnporta,tion of coloured labour into the TransYaal, and it therefnr~._ ... behoves lH',

underotanoing- that the agitation is largely based upon politict~l and economic grounds, and i&

Chinese Labour [2 JuNR] !n the Transvaal. 219

largely directed again"t trades uninnism and the possibility of a politicrrlconfederation drifting into the hands of the. representatives of a democracy m th~ T;ansvaal, and understanding that it is an agnatwn got up by the mineowners-the men who engineered the war-the men who found fun_ds, to some extent, to foment the agitation whiCh led to the war~-it behoves the neople who underst>1nd those facts and the member' of this Chamber, representing the people outside, to enter a protest against it. To my mind, the eastest, the cheapest, anrl the most expeditious way of doing that is for this Chamber to declare by passing this resolution this afternoon- '

That this House emphatically protests again:-;t the :introduction of Chinese labour iuto the Trrws•, aal until a referendum of the white population of that colony has been taken on the subject or responsible goyernment is granted.

I h,we very much pleasure in moving that resolu­tion, and I trust that it will commend itself to the g·ood sense of the House, and that hon. mem­bers will treat it sympathetic:;clly.

The PREMIER : The hon. member for Cler­mont expressed regret that refmencre to thi' subject finds no place in the Governor's S)Jeech. \V ell I hardly think the subject is one for reference i~ the Speech. But, leaving that as a debatable point, I would j nst s.ty thnt if all the su bj cts that every !ton. rnemb-:r in this House thoug·ht shonld have reference m the Governor's Speech had such reference, then the ::Opeech itself would h:t. 0 be;n protr<~cted to a lengt.h equal to that of t.he aver.tge Address. in Reply speech. I hardly hke the terms m whtch the motion rs couched and I_h ,rd!y ~ike_ the time of the House being occupted m clenlmg wtth matters which really concern primarily-though I admit in a secondary deg-ree they concern all pa;ots of the Empire­but which, in a prirnary degree, c ,lwern anothet colony. That is the only heNihtion I have in according my support to this motion. ]jut, much as I dislike anything in the nature of an interference by the Parliament of one ::ltate with the internal affairs of another State still I am prepared to support this motion. :i: believe that the policy of introduci;.g Chinese m wholesale numbers into South Afric> will prove a rnistake, and, notwithstanding a1l that has been said and that may be said by people who are IntereRtt:d in the introduction of Chinese into that State, I believe that the results will be disastnms to the best interests of the Transvaal. [Honourable members: H<:ar hear !) It has been said here, and it has bee~ said elsewhere, that cheap bbour-Chinese labou_r-is absolutely necessary for the profitable worlnng of the goldmines uf the Transvaal. \Vhy, Sir, when we rmnember that these mines are the richest in the world, we can hardly help wondering that -uch a demand should be made upon thte creduiity of eommon-sense people. As a matter of fact, so far as concerns at least the majority of those mines, there have been other reasons than that behind this movement. \Ve will assume that cheap labour is nece,s::try for the working of some of the !JOorer mines. Then we must remember the fact that South Africa is not like any of the Au,,tro.lian States, dependent wholly upon white labour, but that it has at command labour that is cheap, and that I believe is reliable, in the native races of S"uth Africa. And yet with those teeming millions of kafirs all round the area of land occupied by this group of mines, the mineowners are not content to draw their labour supplies from this source, but they must go across the seas and ~ring in a class of peopl~, who, ltowever re­liable they may be as labourers, will constitute a much gre •.ter danger to the future of the whole territory, and indeed not only to the tuture of the Transvaal bnt of the neighbouring

States. I say, Sir, there must be other reasons than those that are advanced by the advocates of Chine~e labour, in support of their claim to be supplied with that class of labour, and I believe the one and sole impulse is the desire for larger divi­dends than are now being drawn from the mines. (Hear, hear !) It has been argued by the hon. member who introduced this motion that the question is a political rather than an economic question. That rnay be so. I an1 not p>:epared to offer a definite opinion on that subject, so far as it "lpplies a motive for the demand tur the introduction of Ohine'e labour into the Transvaal ; but if it be uot now a political question, I aw perfectly certain that. in the not far dist,ant futur,c it will become much more of a. political than an economic question; and I feel very well assured, basing one's concluf'ions upon the experience of the Australian States, that the result will be-.ts I have already expressed lJ!Y opinion that it will be -disastnms tJo the best interests not only of the Tr .. nsvaal~ but rf the neighbouring South African Stat.?l. The hon. 1nernber for Clermont has quoted frnrn an article in a recent, itlsue of the "Conh mporat'Y Review," by Mr. Herbert Sau:n.1el. a rnem ber of the 1-Inu~e nf Cmnnwns. 'rhere a~'e (1neor hn1pa'.~ geRin thatarticle,vhich

\Vonld also draw npon. 1-Ir. Sarnuel says-In none of' tlw TransYtLa.l mine"i with. I b, lim·e, the

:o:ingle exception of the \~illngc 3-Iain Reef, is there any system of .-;team or electrical haulage underground, in none is there l'Wm a horse or a mule to supplement

brute f.)rct of human labour. J.:vcry tnbful of 1~ pushed from the workiug place to the shaft by

m eH-?~ ~yst8l'"<l of traction which, were it still existing in a coal or iron ~to~IC miue in England, -;,vould"com.mand the attention of experts as a remarkable illustration of the almost f0rgotten devices of :t, bygone clay. 'rhe u::-;e of llHtL:hine drills. again, is still Yery partial. That \"iew is stron~ly confirn1;t~ory ·1f the vievr exprfssed by ..\Jr. Oresswell, sornetin1e rnanager of the Vill ge ::\Iain Reef, a man of considerable practical exl-JeriPnce in South ~>-\frica, whn con­tended that if mc1llern met~10rls were applied to the ·working nf those minE"' there \Vould be no necesdty tor iJhe importation of chP 1p .A.--h.tic labour; tha~ that i' tho one thing necessary to secure the profit ~bl e \Vorking of those mines, and that it i' quite as po,sibie to profitably work the gold mines n[ the Rand with white labour as it is to work rrliue~ c,f a sin1i1ar grade with white lab•mr in Au,tralia. .\1r. Samuel aL<o makes this remark, and it is pertinent to the situation, if not to-day as it i, likely to become-

\Yhen two races liYe ~idc hy side difficultie.-; almost invariably arise. In the 'rran~vaal there \Yill be four­the Brith.h, the Dutch, the nntives, and the Cbinc~c. Already the racial difficulty in that part of the British Empire ha~ be<n productive of sufficient bloodshed and political otrife. I am •·ery much inclined to the opinion that the policy adopted by the Transvaal authoritie', and sanctioned by the Ixn1Jerial Gtn ernn1ent, in introducing the Asiatic element into South Africa, so far from minimising will materially add to the difficulties of that country. These are the views I hold upon this m tter, and they lead me to the cc,n­clusion that, however much I may object to the form in IVhich this motion is drawn, and however much one might object to pursuing a policy which seems in any way an interf<'rence with the right of a neighbouring State to control its internal affairs in its own way, it is the duty of memberR of this House to adopt the motion (,S

expressing the opinion of a ::Otate which haH had some experience of the class of labour w hi eh it is now prnpo,Pd to introduce into South Africa. For these re,son; I propose to give my vote in favour of the n1otinn.

Ho:-;. D. H. DALRY1\IPLE (Jiackay): The hon. ge10t!eman who spoke Jn,t appears to object to the form of this motion. He also appears to

220 Chinese La1>ou;· [ASSEMBLY.] 1;1 tlw 'lhmsraal.

think that it is a matter with which we have no ground for interference- that ic is a matter ?ecided by a self-governing colony-and yet he IS gomg to vote for the motion. I should have supposed, from his remarks, that hf' would have come to tH1 entirely opposite c·mclusinn. It seeme<i to me that the argument•, both of the Premier and of the hon. member for Clermont, carry them a good deal further t',an pussib!y they may inten:1, or than this n1otion will g·o. Those arguments were to the effect that the mines could be profitably worked by white labour, provided that. modern methods of mining were adopted. In that case the motinn doe:< rwt go far enough. It shonl<i go further, and I would suggest that some member of the J,abour party should move a.n amendment to the effect that no coloured labuur be permitted in the Trans\.aal. Either that, or we mu't come to the conclusion that this motion is only one of the usual Thursday afternoon fireworks. I hope the hon. member for Cl~rmont is not playing anything in the way of a joke on the

House, which has :;;erious1y assem­[4'30 p.m.] bled to tr,msact the bnsir.ass of the

country. K ow, there is one reflec­~ion _that comes into my mint.!, and I welcome 1t with no plPasure; but associations of ideas are not always m11tters which one can control. Do we manage our own affairs so beautifully that we c,m afford to tell the Transvaal people bow to manage theirs? :\lust we talk about the Tnms­vaal on Thur"lay afternoon, when all the rest of the week we cannot get :Ministers or nwmber,, opposite to defend their act-ions in this State, or thrnw the slightest light on the object with which action has been taken in certain n1at.ters. Artj \ve in the position of the n1an who, with a beam in hi:-; own eye, hunts about for the n1otes in his neighbour's PyeH? It Js n'.n::,t mysteri­ous bow gendemen, \vho will Ecr: srep forward and defend their policy, will con1e for''" ~rd on Thursday afternoons and twidd<e their thumbs, and talk about what shonld or should not be dmw in the TranKva,Il. [1\lr. KEHll: Ht?;~r, hear!] I arn s()rry that the member f(lr Barcoo should show any undue hilarit~~,. on thi:s slnous occasion. Should we not rathPr ·Oiand up for tbe right' of white labour, not in ont~ corner of the worJd but should we not endefvonr ~o Lre.k the sha~kles and fetters of the white men in all part~ of the world? The white n1an uught to be on top. That i~ our opinion. Then why not express it~ \Vhy m the c ;se of the Trans\·r,al :'r·" we to allow these plutocr:ttic mineowners to exploit the wealth, which Nature m:< de, by means of the unfortn,,ate African? h it not just as bad for the white rr1an that he c:nnn1)t g-et work because there ic a superfiuitv of .c\.frican labour­buck njggeu, as me m ber8 Opposite ,,-.[tU thmn­as tLat L•e cannot get work on ftCCount of the superflui~y of Chinan1en? If n-wwbers oppo~ite are consrstPnt they will an1end this reRnlution. I call upon them a,, representativrs of labour to do so, and act vvith some degree of consi3tency. 'l'bat is rny attitude. The reSolution dues not go far enough. All these argurnents nbuut the employment of machinery and tlw rights of the white rrutn con1e to this if carried to thdr loaical conclusion-that we, the people of Queensla~c­and I notice that if twenty or two pe<>[Jle g-et together they call theUJsel' es t.he people uf Queensland -in furtherance of the rights of wbne labour protest against the en1ployrnent of .coloured labour wherever it is en:p!oy<'d. It IS JUst as bad for the white man to be pre­-vented fron1 getting en1ployrnent because there is somebodv from Timbucwo who is a black man, or a Swazi, or Zulu, or Hindoo stopping him as if he were stopped by t.he Chinaman. \Vhat matters it to the white man who cannot get work? Yet these gentlemen by the it actions

apparently sanction this abominable injmtice to the white m~n. It they consider this matter of so much importance, and are so Fatidied with their own succ ~ss in n1nnaging their OVilll affair~ as to protest to 1 he Imperial Government :m cl " friendly State against the employment of Chine"e, and at the same time actually sanction the employment of other coloured labour in the South African mines, then I cannot say much for their consistency. If they do not believe in the employment of Chinese labour on the R:tnd, and if they think that if they do not lift up their voices ag·ainst it, su~h labour will be employed; if tbev believe that they have so mucb influence that their pro­test will be effective, ann if they do not also protest against the employment of the man from Bechuanaland, or the Zuln,. or the fhvazi, will it not be supposed that the Home Secretary and the Treasurer absolutely approve of and eudorse the employment of black men to any extent in South Africa? I defy any reaooning man to a void coming to any other conclusion. This n1otion is rnost ernbarra~sing to rr1e1nbers oppo­site. \Vhat sort of position does it put them in with the Trades Hall! The carrying of the motion in its present form wili lo.,e some of tlwse gentlemen the chance of re-election, and I urge tne hon. member for Clerrnont to get some of his friends to move an amendment which from their point of view should be entirely dP;irable, and which, if it is not u-,ovecl, will place those hon. gen Jen1en in a very false posi­tion. I do not think there is any donbt about it. [Mr. LEsJNA : "·by do you not rrHwe it?] There is one point I wou:d like to make, and it is thi . ..;. _._.\_~,;;uming that it is: right to pro­test ag·ainso the people uf ~outh Afric:t manag­ing their own "ffairs--[~lr. LEsiNA : Oh, no.] That is e'mctly wh>tt it i>. [:Wr. LESI!\'A: The reRnlution :sayt; they an1 granted pov\er to look after their own affairs.] Tbe resolution fHtys, ''until a referendun1 of the \V bite P'>pulation of that colony has Leen taken." As tlwugh a referendum could make it right! To is either wn•ng or right, 9nd why should the white population exclu,ively have a refer­endum in a country which bel.mgH to the blach? There is the gross injustice of the thing. The whites go to that country; they rob the people whose forefathers have been there for countless generations. \Vhere is the justice or equity in shutting these people out trorn the referendutn on thi~ special subjf'ct, \vhen by the laws of :South Africa coloured men arc' a<imitt.ed to the fmnchi,·e, and entitled to take rnrt m a referendum The whites hY virtue of their strong arm, seize the country, "they rob the black man of his soil, they make 11im a serf, :>nd they say he shall not even have the right of maE­hood-a vote. I really think the people of South Africa had better manage their own affairR. They cannot rnanage then1 worse than hon. members oppo,ite woulcl. These gentlemen would give the 8outh African native no rights; yet in North Americ>t--that g-reat republic over which the stars and stripes bann,•r waveH-thcy emancipat~d the negro. Abra.ham Lincoln, with a stroke of the pen, scmck off his shackles and made him free. \VhY should '' e he ~:tiled upun to interfere in the affair,, 0f South Afric:t '? \Vhat would WP think if the Go\'ern­lnent of Sierra Leone, or Cape Colon:y, or Trini­dad, told ns what our duty was in connection with any particul r line of policy? SuppC'Sf' the GoYernment of ]'iji wrote to us and told ns what our line of action should be in reg-ard to cert.ain Polyne:;;ians. Or suppo.3e eYen the (~overnment of J'\ew Caledonia attemr,ted to interfere with us'? \Vbat was said by the Pre­mier was right. The interests of the· Eastern race~ are more or less Cl)nnectell \vith ours.

Cl! inese Labou!'

But it seems to me that that proposition cuts hnth wuy::;, for our atfalrs are RO very nn1eh connected by commerce with the rest of thP world that our interests cannot be a matter of indifference to the coloured racer,, :For instance, if the Emperor of J\'Iorocco- who appe "'S to be very busy just now wioh reg,,xd to the capture of one or two gentlemen-the ~\likado of ,Tapan, or hundreds of other dusky potentates were to communicate with us in regard to kanaka lauour and tell us wbat to do, I think we should probr,bly reBent it, But assuming that this state of thing was perrnitted to exist, a.nd a:;:t~uwing that we are so much hrmnd up one with another in the n1atter of production and distribution as to tnake it necessary for us to interfere, then I ''"Y that the people of Paris, Berlin, ='few York, and Chimtgo all are intems•cd in this matter; and I may say th"t you, Sir, having travelled over South Afric>t <t good deal, are aware th>tt all the shareholder~ in th8 mines there are not British subjects, It is all very well to prop<Jse legislation at other people's expense, and it is well known that people in Germany, France, and Arnerica are very large shareholders in these mines. \Vhy, W" are interfering in a crmmopolitan affair, and for all we know the ErnpP.ror of Gerrnany, \V ho i~ :L very active gentleman, might send UR a n1es~clge stating that a motion of this kind will injuri­ously affect the affairs of Fatherland, by depri­ving- a lerge number of German subjects of the prr,titH that were accruing to thern, and woul·i continue to accrue, had it nut been for the improper interference of the hon. member for Clermont, I do not know that I need sav much more, but I will point out that if hon. members wish to carry out what they de~ire, an an1endment in this n1otion shoul~! be introduced S'J as to exclude all coloured labour. I would also point out that, to my n1ind, it is an act of terrible assur11ption-a pharasaical kind of act-f,,r the people of this State, who have a very large country, and a huge debt to match, to take upon thewselve; to send n1essageR which are sirnp1y \vaste paper. This matter has been cliHcmsed in South Africa and in the TransvaaL [Mr, LE8JKA: The Cape Parliament pat-;sed a resolution coudernning this actiou.] As far as the Transvaal i, concerned. Do they want to do awuy with kafir labour? If t.hey don't, why don't they? [Mr. LESIXA : They want to make the coloured man preeene their millions and kee)J down the wnges of the white man.] As far as one <;,<n ga,•,,her, the majority there are in favour of the intro­duction of this Chine,,e labour. I do noc advocate it ; but the Doers have exprt''sed their opinion-and they are thP mm•t itnpor­tant raC<' in South Africa- thRy generally appr<>ve of the introduction of thislal•our, which, after all, is something in the way of an experi­rnent. There i~ a concluding pan.graph in the quotation which the Premier read which I should like to refer to. He pointed ont that in the or:inion of the author he quoted ths introduction nf Chinese races in South Africa was likely t' lead to another difficulty and be an adclit(;,nal source of :.:trife; that there are European.c;, 1:1atives of the soil, and Roers there already, and the introduction uf a fourth race would add to th· risks of w:,rfare and bP an additional menace to the ruling race. If the hon, member has ever read Cresar hP might remernber that C:--eF<ar's counsel wa:;: to "Oivide and conquer,': and it is extremely probable that if there were five or ten races in South Africa instpad of four the sovereignty of the empire would be a great deal safer than with only one. The empire in Indh has been created and continues to exist because of the number of different races there. I have pomtecl out the weakness of that argument and

tn the TransvaaL 221

I cl" lh't think the time on Thursdav afternoon should be frittered away in this 'fashwn-in ab, 1lntt> fnti!itlws and inanitlc;.

:\lr, D'LI:\SFORD ( Cha;·ter,, 'l'mccrs) : The hon. member who has ju.;t sat down says that this 111otion j::; ir,C:)nsistent because it doe,;; not include the whole of the coloured race..;, anr1 to be consistent. it Khonlcl exclude every alien n_nd only lt>a\'8 tb.P white rnan in South ~\..frica; bnt the hon. rnew ber n1ust know that the Zuivf-;, the Swazis, and the Rotten tots and other coloured neople there an~ tht> l,boriginals of ~outh .Africa. Such being- the ca~e, they <'trP in thA sanle poRi~ tion as th" aborigina,ls of .._-\._ustralia, although they are rnuch mor<~ intelligPnt, a.nd I do not think that the hon. I111-rnt·er will g(l so fa.r a ... to Euy that hecau~?. whitf.· labour legi:-:lation in Austrn lia has prevented the Chinese from corning here and will preYent, :-:tfter a cprtain date lmnaka< frum being emvloyed in the sng<tr business, and excluding other alien races, there­fore we should bnndle out our aboriginals. That \Va,, never propusAd, and is noli likely to be pr(J­posed, and it would he just as wrong to say such a thing in connection with a country like South Africa, where a large proportion of the jJopnlation are natives. n has been asked: \Vhat right have we, in a Legislatnre in Aus­tralia, or in <tny portion of the Empire, to inter­fere in the affairs in South Africa. That ha,s been asked repeatedly; but was that :1'ked when the people in Au<tmlia and other portions of the Empire were asked to take part in the war? Citizr;ns of tbe Empire were asked to take part in the war. For what purpose? In order that the dioabilities under wtlich British people there were suffering should be nmoverl. That w,ts the stated cause of the war. It was said that th~ war was neces­sary because the Boers were inflicting certain hardships and injustices upon the white people there. Tlwre.f( 1rE', Australia, Canada, and other p8rtions of the Emnire were askeri to take a hand in the v.:ar ; and, as a matter of fact, they did take a hand in it, and they "ssisted to bring about the vict 'ry. The Transvaal and the Orange Fre,, States are to-day a British posses­sion hec:mse of that war, and partly btconse of the action taken by other portions of the Empire than South Africa and Great Britain, It we were willing at that time to take a hand in the war, surely, seeing that the object of the Go­vernment ,,'as to free tl<e white people theee, \V8 have a right to Jift up our vnicPs if we sec that the white P<'O['Ie are likely to !'nffer rtn injnF:tlce from lPgislation ur anvthir.-' else forced upon them from out­side. \Ye must remember that the South African peonle have no~ got respon.;;..ible governruent. If they, b:~" n1edium of a referenc1nrn, or thr(1ugh the,ir eltcte<l legislator<, had >h,Jwn that it" as their will to employ Chinamen or any otber aiien race, it would not be right fur us to interferP in any way, even by:: n1oti!)u such as that now before the Hon"e. Bnr. thf'y have not got respnnsib1f~ gnvernment, and we are therefure }Jerfec.:tly justified in pas:-:ing snch a, re~·)lntinn, if we have a sufficif>nt Ill'1~orlty to do Ro. Indirectly this queAinn affect, Australia. It is likely to affect one of our great industrie'\ that is the rnining · industry, if nn" rnnre. The ernployment of n, largr· nnn' ber of Chine~f' in Suuth Africa will ultimately L:·iv cau~A to certrlin per..;nn~ in thi:-: countrv to raisu a cr\r for cheap Jabonr in nur mines.' Already I find t,hat there i• a tend• ucy in som0 nf the reports to emphasise the contention that mines contoining ore below a certain grorie will not pay. I "' _,s reodinv a report the other clay, not an official report, but " rPport by some engineer to a board of directors in Western Au,tralia, in which it was vointecl out that owing- to \vages-the average was Hornething lilm 12s. Gel. a day-being abnormally high,

222 Chinese Labour [ASSEMBLY.] ~n tlw Transvaal.

mines containing low-grade ore were not workel at t:,e present time in \Ye,tern Australia. Aml although there was not a Htrai~ht nut suggestion that Chinamen shc.uld be obtained. still there ;,vas the suggestion that some eh e'ap clas8 of labour should be procured. Even in thio House we hc>d the other night a member on this sicle saying that in an indmtry like the cotton in­dustry wage;-; Rhould not f'tand in the wn~' of it~ establishtnent. The cont· ntion (Jf the hon. n1ernher wa·, that if the indu~try w·ould not pay Gs. a. day to white 1abonrPrs, tbere was no 1'83'-;011 \Vhy Ct)lonred labour should not be en1-1J!oyed, or at. any ratf' f;Ome cl 1"R of luhn1r r~'cei ving le~:-: than H::-. a day, in o1·du· tl1ar, that indm,trv f.:huuld be e.':itabl1shed. 'l_lhere has been at( ;ldF-nC)~ all a]nng the line to pick np i.ndustrie11 which wilt not. pay the 'v0gt',S that white re )p~e here ar~-> accnston1ed to rec·8h·e ~a tendency tn P~t~bli.-,h indu~tries :;~nd Pllter ]nto ~OllT[H''tition with nationB .,.,-ht-"re t.he lahonr i~-~ of a lo\YGr st:1ndard than it iti in r\u~tralh. ThP es~·tb1it<hrne.:.:tt of inrlustri-' ernplnying low­paid lahour will RRBi8t to hring do\vn to a lower level the whole of the labourers in An"tralin. The ambition of thP Labour part}' and of up-to-date den1ocra.tR in Anstralia i.') to pay~)- li.vin•[ ,,~age­to confine our:;;elve-H to Ruch il1du·tries a,, \V8 can work at a. profit by pa~~ing a rea~nnable living wage to thos•' engaged in them. Coming back to the mining industry, I would P•>int out that all over Que-one,land and all over Aus­tralirt are quite a nun1ber of reefs of lo\v­grade ore, and it 1night ver:- weli be cnn­tended that lwcaus<• those reefs cannot b.e made to pay a f1ir rate of wages to \Vhite 1niner~, Chinamen should be obtained to work th>'m. That is the very contention in South Afri -l.

They say, "\Ve have a mining inclustry, it is the most important indu,try in South Africa, but it will not give a profit to the owners to work them on a large ~cale u1Jles~ we have a cheatJf'T chRs of labour than white labour." In other word". they say that the mining industry in South Africa will not pay if white miners are employed at a living wage. \Vheru is the difference between that cry in that portion of the British Empire and the crv that is raised here in Queensland~ The difference is that in Sonth Africa they have not got responsible government, and they have therefore succeeded in ol1taining this special cheap labour, and the only reason why people are not clamouring· for Chinese or other cheap labonrin Queensland is that we have got re­sponsible Government, and they know theywoulcl not get that cheap labour. I\Ionopoli0s and com­bines have been succes fully carried out in all parts of the world in spite of responsible Government, and the result has been a large reducti<>n in wages. Industries such "" the one spoken of here the other night, which would not pay under the conditions we are used to--r,t the standanl of living we are accustomerl to in Anstralia­have been established, but with lJJPst mis­chievons result:S. Such being the c~1se we are perfectly ju,tifiecl in movinf( a resolution of this description in this legislature, because in doing so we are assistiug directly or lndirectly persons ref'icle' t in South ~.:\frica,, and becanEB we con­ceive that it is injudicions to ~~Ye effect to such an ordinance in South Africa as it may indirectly affect u,s here in Australia. That is my contention. It never has been con­tended in South Africa that the white man can-

not do the work. I suppose that [.5 p.m.] nobody in this House would dare to

get up and say that white miners are not suitable br mining work, that the mines are too hot or too damp, and the conditions are not suitable for white labour. The main reason given in the past why kanakas should work in the sugar industry was that white men cannot

do the work. If it could be contended th '•t white labour is noL suitable for rnining !Jurpose~ then perhaps th~r~ would have been Hon1e good reason for the illt.roduction of Chinaruett into Sonth Africa for those purprBes; but that has not. been contended by the champion of the Chinaman at all. The hon. member for 2\L:ckay said just now thnt if \VG in A.ustralia n1.:n1<:1ged our own affair~ ~o well we might be justi­fied in trying to tc:ccb the South African people how they should rnanage the1r"'. J adtnit that the coutinuou;; {_j-. •vernnlent, of u hich 1 he hon. 1nember \V[)~ a worthy snpp(Jrter ;_vhih, tht·y 1<7'21'8 in lJtnver, did nnt manage the atf:1i·: , rJf th;-. country well1 but Yery barl.ly indt'.-·cl; but since thf' J)fnrgan GoYerntHent ha ccnne in o p HYPr

tber -· has lwen :1. chan\~·e for the bettet, und although ROIIH::' mi.stakPs 1ut.ve LePn n•:tdfl, y"t

. they ktve not been v:ilful mistake.:. T!J, y bene nnt been l:Jllge b1nnder~3 of the nature of_ those made by the continuont-~ GoY• rnment. \Ve are nwn~t.drJg c,ur O\Yn tclffa.irs very \Tell at. the pre­sent t.in1e in ::\1lln ction vvittl white labour in Aush:Jia. '1_"~! e Comrnon,l:f- ~1lth l1as pa~t:ed Splendid and €f~·t ,-.ti\ t' legislation d€.1ling vi'i th c(Junrerl. alit>n labour, so that if we corJ:ine uur Pel....-es iu the qnt't:-.Llon as to wlH.,tht--r Vi"e ,-.re nmnagin'' our own :::dfairs \Vf·ll in connection with white lab(_)ur in Au~tralia, we rnay b·.~ ju~tified in expre~·;ing a \VitJh in reg.,rd to Sonth ..:-\..frica. I know that tlJe white labour legb;lation doeR not meet with the approval of hon. members opposite. Now, .the so-called dearth of labour which ht,s be, n stat,~cl to exist in tlouth Africa, has arisen from the fact thas during the war a number of kafirs were engaged by the Governrnent in different vocation~, and were r~ceiving a cmnparativcly high rate of wages. lip to the period when I \isited South Africa the kafir miner' in the industry were nul. really 1ninert-:. in any sf'nse. They were rP.cei ving fron1 Ss. to 12s. a week and bread and beef, and work­ing about twelve hour, a day. But sir,ce that time the war has taken place, and a large number of kafirs obtained a comparatively high rate of wages and were able to save money. At any rate, thev received sufficient to pumhase a good number (Jf cattle and a large number of wive'. The chief aim of the kafir when he went into the 1nine" was to Rave sufficient money to en:(ble hin1 to return and purchase cattle and wives, and then rest for the remainder of his life, while they work for him. That is the reason for the so­called dearth of labour in Snnth Africa. There are still a l>trge number of kafirs who are avail­able, and if it is only a queetion of pa:ying a little more for the cla"" of l>tbour they h.>d m the past, then there is plenty available. Bnt ont.>ide of that altogether, there are any number of white n1iners who could be obtained frorn Great Britain, from Australia, and irom other parts of the British :Empire, who would be only too plear,ed to vo and work at a reasonable rate of W>~ges, and we know that the mining· industry is a very profii·able mw. I believe the South African mines have [kid millions of pounds in dividends to the absentee shareholders. It is an industry which has paid very high wages t0 labour employed there. I contend that after all this Chinese labour is not cheap labour at all. It i' only cheap in the sense that they receive very little money; bnt the fruit of their labour is not comparatively so great as that of white labour. It requires intelligent miners to profitably work those mines. That has been shown times out of nu1nber. Even in the l'v'Ialay Peninsula it has been proved that a white man etn do more,.- rk than three 8r four Chinese, and that in the end the higher wage paid to a white man iR cheaper t:.an the lower rate of wages paid tn a Chinaman. As the Premier pointed out, it is very true that modern

[2 JuNE.] in the Transvaal. 2:23

methods should be used to cheapen the numng indnstry. \Ve have always found that where there is a cheap class of labour employeo, whether it i-; a dave class or a "·emi-~lave cla~:-; of labour, the iny.._ntion8 di: ... covered are \'ery f:w indeed. It it-; only where an intelligent anrl higbly-jJaid class of labour is employed that they are C'll1Stantly 1naking new discoveries and 11ew invention., fLnd cons::quen:Jy bringing into use up-tt>-date ln~,i~hiuery. 11oderu inven­tions are uuly apvlicd in places where there is in~ellig;.:nt la.bour eruployed; one is a corollary of the ntner. If ron continue cheu,:) slave labour, er even a .,Grni-slave cl1.8S of labour, it results in carelessness. \Ye have iu mining a cheap clatJS of labour, amongst which accident"' are nun1erous, and although life is valu>cble, they never put a piecr:. of tirnber in the rnine \vhett> necessary. That was ?roved in South )drier. with Zulus and k,ifirs. The term kafir is applied generally to the whole of the :South Afric~n natives. It wa; proved conclmively that the kaiir labour brought about this condition of things. At any time mineo\vners wonld .~;:)oner :-.ee a katir n1aimed and killed, a." frfquently happtmed, tha.n put in an Pxtra ~-;tick CJf timber. 'J~in1ber c 1>'5L" rnoney, while kafirs are chertp 1 and, of course, the n1ain consideration witl1 thE' clil,ss uf l~gislBtor.:; like the h(\n. member for ~Iackay, ::\ir. Dalrym)Jle, is chtapness. [Hon. D. H. l>ALRDIPU;: Yon don't know what cheapness is.] The hon. gentleman is not cheap. The con­tinuous Government cost this country too much, and the "tirerl " 1:finister, the hon. member for ~Iackay, has been one of the w0rst andmostexpen­Sl\'fl 11inisters Queensland has ever had. The hon. gentlemltn has been very dear-not like his fric,nds, coloured labour. I admit his merits a< a debater-he is one of the "'blest in this House­but he has been an expensive administrator. [Hon. D. H. DALRDIPLE: High·priced labour is ofte" th<J cheapest. J I do not think there is any necessity for me to continue any longer. I think we are justified in passing such a resolution af:; this, and I also think that it would he a good thiog if the white people in South Africa can be saved from having a cheap class of coloured labour thrust upon them through <'utside in­fluences. It is well known that the mines there tcre managed by directors who reside in Great Britain. Many of them are not likely to even visit the R>cnd, and, so long <1S the)' can get their gold chnply, they will be satiofied. They are quite prepared to thrust the Chinamen upon the white people who are living in the Transvaal, and among whom the Chinamen will live. I think this Legislature ought to take into con­sideration other things than mere cheapness, and I shall certainlv vote for the motion,

Ho:-;. Sm A. RGTLEDGE (Maranoa): I think tlw hon. rr1e1nber who has jnMt sat dovvn hlt; unnecessarily devoted a gre:ctt deal of time to inveighing against the ir:;troduction by capitalists of coloured labour into a British com­munity. I du not think he will find many to disagree with him that it is very undesir.·, ble that we should ha 1e numbers of Cninese or any other colourt:d race coming in and taking the plnce of the white p-eople of Queensland. I should not re~·ard the ,,,ction sin1ilar to that of the Transvaal Government, or of the Imperial Government in :-.anctioning the ordina.nce to which the hon. mPmber for Clermont referred, as proper if applied to Queensland. But what I '\Vant to knnw is what concern it is of ours. Tb8 people ,,f South Africa surely have intelli­gence enough to manage their own affairs without asking what our opinion is on the subject. [Mr. LESINA : They have no votes.] That is so-they have no such represen­tative institutions yet as we have, but their affairs are under the r,aternal care of the

In1pP.rial Governrr.ent, and t-iUrely it is a question that the people of the Tranvaal-what there are of them-and the Imperial Government ,hould settle between thcmsel ves. I regard it in this wa.y: \Ve have no right, as outsiders, to volun­teer our opinions to peqple with whom we have nuthing whatever to do a" to how they should znanage their affairs, or ho 1 '' thr~ British li-overn­ment ought to man.1ge them for them. 1\ly hon. friend on the left says that, if they were to pass resolutions condeu1ning :-tny action of our Go­vernrnent, we shnnld l'Pgard it fts an intrusion, and as an atternpted. encroaclnnent on onr r·ights. I credit the hon. member with tbe bet intentiqns in bringing this motion forward, and there is no doubt he can reckon upon the sympathy which 1nost of u~ ha Vf~ \Vith the view that he> entu·­tains as to the nnrl ·sirlthle char«cter of colourerl aliens glnerally con1ing into a country in large number; in support of his resolntion. I do not complain of that objection existing in his rnind, or in the mind of any other hon. member, or of any numlJer of hon. members; but what I do object t1) i.s that \Ve nre a~ked to pass a resolution declaring our opinion;:; upon subjt:'ct~ that we are not COlllpetent, frorn our personal knowledge, to deal with. 1 really do not know ho\V to ruake up 1ny 111ind, ,,_s to whether the ordi nanc,• is a rjght ordinance or a wrong one to enact. I have stP.n n1uch in print on b<Jth sides of the question. I have read opinions expressed by men who have lived for a very long ti1ne in the Tw.nsv:1al-men who are not 111ineowners, n1en who are not in any WJ.Y interetited in • he rnines of the Rand, n1en \\ ho are rega,rderl as bt-ing nwdel citizen<;, to who~e opinions deference ought to be !'aid, and who are entirely unselfis:1 and disinterested in the posi­tions they take up. I say l have re~cl expresu sions C'f opinion from nurnbers of tht::~e, who have approved heartily of the introduction of this ordinauco, and who ha,·e declared that the Britisil Government, in their opinion, did the right thing in sanctioning it. I know that there are some who hold the contrary opinion; but how are we, so many thousands of miles away, able to ""'Y who are in the right. Few of us have ever been there, we know nothing hut what we hear or read on the subject, and how are we competent to form an opinion when the people on the spot are not themsel1es in agreement? [l\lr. LESINA: The only Le~islatnre in South Africa-that in Cape Colony-has carried a resolution dead against the introduction of Chinese.] Quite so. \Ve know that in Cape Colony there are a large number of people in the Legislature who are opposed to coloured labour in any shape or form, just as I suppose the majority of those in the Legislatures in Australia object to it, and they have passed a reeolntion there, just as I suppose a resolution will be passed here, because it is in harmony with the popular view. But is there any comparison to be instituted between the action of the Legislature of Cape Colony and the action of the Legislature of Queens­land? They are next-door neighbours so to speak. The business aff:tin and the political affair' of C..cpe Colony are a matter of profound interest to the people of other parts of South Africa, and ,-ice t'C?'Sil ; they are Yitally concerned with thP welfare nf the people of the Rand to an extent that we ltre not. It is becauKe I do uot like t J mec1dle with other people's business that I do not think we .1.re called upon to express an opinion at all. As I said, I judge more from the opinions expre"sed by people lidng on the spot than even from the opinior.'' expressed by the Legislature of Cape Colony, and, when among the most reputable people of the Transvaal there are to be found diver­gent views upon the subject, how are we in a position to form any reliable opinion at all?

224 Chinese Labou?~ [ASSE:;viBLY.] tn tlle Transvaal.

If wA were to pass a resolution genera,lly ad­dressed to the ImjJerial Government, stating that m onr opinion it is not desirable that there should be colourf'd labour introduced into any part of the British dominions, we might be met by a strong rebuff. To tell the Imperial Government in effect. that there should be a white Sonth Africa would be an r~hmrd position to take np, and one that could not be sw;tained. And after all, the introduction of the-:(->. rnen i . .:.; not to be regarded as n pernwnen t provision for the labour supply of nny part of ~outh Africa. The Pre­mier referre.1 to tlw teeming· millions of coloured races in Sonth Africa who ought to be called upon. if tiley ha,·e not enough white litbour to C3tTy on the operation~ of rnining there. That has been a puzzle to me for a long time. I could not understand why on earth they wanted to introdue~ Chinese or other people into a cnuntry where the native raceo simply swarmed. It seems incredible tha/. kafirR cannot be engagPCl for the purpcJHe of cnrrying on the mining in­dustry there, Surely they do not demand a ,-ery high pt'ice for their sen·ices. They could he got much more chF .. •.ply than Chinese. It is one of the mysteries of the situa'ion which to a person situ1ted Rn far ::tv.,ay seems nnaccountahle. I am in a dif!iculty, therefore. :'l]Jeaking broadly I regard it as undesirable that anywhere where white races predominate a large number of coloured people should be hrnught in to carry on nny industrial operations. But that is an abstract question, and I may have an opinion on that ab<tr"ct question without being justified in offering an opinion on the concrete question as to whether, under the rigid rules which are to be obserYed in the introduction of these Chinese, it i,; a right thing to do or not. And without in any way•expressing my approval of wh~t the In1perial Government have done in Ranctioning the introduction of those people, I object to be called up 1n to pronounce ,;n opinion upon a quer•tinn of this kind. \Ve see so many contra­dictory statements that one hardly knows what to believe. Some s~y these people will he kept in a state of semi-shvery. If that can be sub­stantiated it on"ht to excite feelings of abhorence in the mind of e,•ery British subject. But I should like to know whether that is so. I have read so much on both sides that I do noc know whether it was a right thing ur a wror g thing on the part of th British Government to sanction the passing of the ordina.nce, and I do not f<·el myself corn petent, hs a member of this Legislature, to pronounce an opinion UIJ011 it. Tb,~ref,ne I do not like to become a party to a resolution affirming what is containt>d in the nwtion before us. Then, a~ain, it ought to be borne in mind that, if there is any necessity for Australia to speak on the r.ubjt- et, Australia has already spoken. The Federal Parlianrent has passed a resolution of this kind, :end surely that i' enough. \Vhen tbe high cqurt of Legis­lature of Australia has expressed its opinion, th.,re is no occ"sion fqr all the subordinate Legis­latures of Australia to come in and echo what has been said there. We heard a lot the other night about the I•'ederal Parliamellt and the Gu;·ern er-General, and bow the several States and their Governors have subsided into a Yery subordin'lte po,;itiorl. If that is so, sur8]y the Federal P.trliament is competent to spt·ak the mind of Australia on this subject ; and as it has spoken, I submit, with all deference, that we are wasting our time in giv-ing expre.:,~ion to an opinion which certainly can ha 1·e very little weight as coming from a comparatively small part-s peRk­ing in the sense of popuhtion-of the great C<>mmonwealth of Australia.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxley): I hesitate to take up the time of the House. The hour is passing

rapiilly, and I should like to see thi.s motion divided upon or carried on the voices. The rnain objection taken to the n1otion seexns to be that it is interfering in a matter with which we have no concern. rrhis can hardly be said to be the case. It is very prob:1ble that in the not far distant future Imperialfederation will Le brought about, and anytbing that stands ill the way of that eunsurllmation shuuld be "' oided. \Ve underc,tood that the receut war in South Afric:o was Ctrried on in the intere~ts of the Uitlanders, who were being oppressed by the Dutch ruler. of the Transva i ; th"t in order that they mi~·ht have fullliberry to enjny the sarne p:i1·i:eges w" enjoy here thctt war was entered upon. In that war Australia volunteere'J bsr forceR, this State being tbe tir.~t to do so. \Ye lwve, there­fore, some intereBG in South .A.Jrica,; and I think we are fully justified in passing a resolution which has alree.dy been adopted by Victoria, New Zealand, Kew South \Vales, and both Houses of the :Federal Parliament. \V e have had c<>n iderablo e'tperience of the diffi­culties incidental to coloured hbour. Ti:is n1otion inn<_) '~en He deals with the coloured lRbour question, becan.::;e the natives are there, and it i'. not sought to exclucle them from the mines. It is rnerely a protest against the u1finx of Chine~e indented labour, under conditions which have been described as 'omething akin to semi­sla' ery. The kafirs have, no doubt. been very high-handed since the w.ar, and it is hoped that the introduction of Chinese will bring them k· their bearings. That is very largely the motive actua• ing the mineowners in this matter. In "' recent issue of the Telegraph there was an inter­view with a Xew South \Vales member 0f Parliament, who referred particularly to this qnPstion. I will read a short extract from it-

As regards the empl<YJ•ment of OhinPse on the R::tnd, ::.\1r. -Willis stu.t~::::s that he has heard more about the question outside than inside ~Hrict-t. The people there appear to be stnpified or bulldozed. by th>-J fearful power wielded by tlv~ f'apitalh;ts, <Ln<l chieHy the conti­nental men. "X ever in my life have I seen," he remarkP-<1, "'a whole conm:ry so bonncl hancl and foot a1 d :-:o much at the heC'k and call of the capitalists as Sonth _\.frica-in fact, I brlien~ tllat a man's lite would not be safe in Johannesburg ·were he t.o attempt to address a meeting agninst the iutrodnclion of the Chinese." In X a tal the pt,ople simply say '· Ir.'.;; lhe Transvaal's own bn.:dness '': in Capetown they say" A..s the black won't \York the vellow must, as it is :t black man's country, and the.;; remain quieq~ent.)) The number of Cllinc."e requirPd for the first. year .. ~\lr. 'Willis says, is 13ti,OOO, gradually incre~tsjng nntil ::WO,OOO is reached.

In my estimation we r~re perfectly justified in passing the motion move1 by the bo.1. member

1 for Clermont protesting ngainst the introduc­tion of Chinese to operate the mines in South Africa.

Mr. P. ,J. LEAHY ( War1'Cyo): I do not know a gre»t deal about mining matt.er.•, but l do not

think thi~ is a 111ining HL{.tter ;t,t nil. [5·30 p.m.] It. is to a 1·ery large extent a ques-

tion affecr.ing- the rightR of the colony that proposes to introduce Chinese la hour. I am not a believer in any form of :~lien ~ab •nr, unlt"S very strong re1snns •...:an h · ·''lduced in f,,.vonr of itH introdnction, but I ce,t>tinly do not kno1v ennugh at the preRent Tnomc~lt a.l1on'", this subject to enable nlP to give a votr. either for or against the1notion. Ih~lVP.nodesireto question thP motives of the bm. m ern her for Clermont, though I must say that anything emanating from that man might reasonably excilP suspicion, because both inside and outside the House he generally goes in f~r political fireworks. If tbe motion had been brought forward by the Premier or some gentle­man occupying a resprmsihle position, it i8 probable he might have found me sitting on his side. I will not say that no arguments he.ve

Chinese Labou;' [2 JUNE.] m tlie Transvaal. 225

been adduced in favour of the motion, but I do not think that any arguments sufficiently strong and convincing have bPen arlduced to justify me in giving my vote for it. \Vhat is the pnsition? At the present moment thPre is no such thinR as responsible government in theTramvaal. \Vhy? Becanse after the war-a war in which many of us were glad to think Australia took a prorninen t part-it was concJidered that a certair: time must elapse before the country was npe for self.government. [Mr. LESINA : And it is to be postponed indefinitely by introducing thousands of Chinese.] I am not prepared to admit for one moment that the introdnction vf responRible governrnent is post¥ poned by tringing Chinese there. For some time to come the Tran,v·a,al will not be ripe for self·government. The Boers have not yet g<>t over their feeling of sorenes., which is quite natural among people who have received a severe beatin>{. LMr. LgsrNA : That is why British settlement should be encouraged.] I am not opposed to the encouragement of British settle­ment. At the present moment the Transva~tl is not ripe f<>r self-government, but l have no doubt that as soon as ever the con­ditions are favourable for se!f.gnvernment it will be gra~te~. Now, a prHssing neCP8sity appears to exist m the Transvaal for the develop­ment of the mining- industry. There is a Govern­ment in that colony, and that Gnvernn1ent, such as it b, must deal with the question of labour, whether it is alien or native. That Go· vernment, with the facts at its command-and I submit that it is only reasonable to a'sume that the facts at its command are fuller than those at our command-has in its wisdom decidt'd upon a particular course. They have very much fuller knowledge on the mCLtter than ,,e haVf•, and if they approve of the introduction or aliPn labour, I am not prepared to admit for a moment that we are right In passing this rnotion and condemn­ing what they have d,me With a full knowledge of the facrs. A» reg><rds the interview recently publi>hed in the local papers, and which was rea.:! by the Secretary for Agriculture, Mr. \Villis admits t bat he has heard a great deal more about this Chinese labour que,tion since he left South --:\.frica than in Sou- h Afric;~ Itself. 'fhe Secretary for Agricultur, oaid that :\lr. \Villis reportPd th;ct the people of i:\onth Africa were ttfraid to express their opinions, but :ilr. \Villis did not apply his remarks to the whole of Sollth Africa or Natal. He says that penplt:' in Natal t:ny, "It is the bnsi­neHS of LhH Tran..,v::Ld, and we d<) not wit-ih to interefere." If the people of Natal, who have a fuller an,! wider knowledge of the question than we have, take up that attitude, I Sllbmit that in pas:-:;ing thi.-; rt"::)rdution we go hPvond our powers. [.\lr. LESIXA: He sttid the pe,<>plP­were terrorised.] Nll; he s<tid the pt>ople of t,h(~ Tra.nsvaal 1.vor·e terrorised but 1 do not think there is a Britun who i~ terrorised anywhere>. Under the Gt)l..-ernnlent which exists· at the present time in the Transvaal I do not, think terrorism exisfs, thoug-h it iH pract.i::-;ed by meru­bers sitting on the other si,le. I am fairlv familitlr with manv of t.hce home and South Afric"lll papel'R, an'd r have ~een nothing to wan ant n1e in h~~lding- the opinion tha.t a reign of terror ex is·.~ in South Africa, and thrtt people ,ere afraid to expre-s their opinion'. Now, in the f.we of these Lccts, we are justified in assumii1g that if the wl,ite popnhtion uf the Tran~vactl are not in favour of the introduction of Chine~e, th ... y are not very strongly Against it, beclluse 1f they were very str·ongly ao· tinl'\t it there is no question we would have ilPard a great deal .more about it. IN e were told by' the Premier and other speakers that the Transvaal mines were the richest in the world. I do not

1904-Q

know where tbe hon. gentler:nan got his inforlna­tion. Jt depend~ altogether upon the ligl1t in which you look at it. [Mr. LESINA: 179 per cent is a fair indication of richnes:-:.J If ! uu mean that th~y turned uuta v-ery large amount of gold, and that in the past they have paid pretty go<>d dividenrls, then you may C<•nsider the1n rich rrlines ; bnt you n1nst re1ner:nLer that in the past, the fact that they ba,ve paid large divid{·ndR \vas 1nainly owing to their having had cbea•J lttbuur, and if they had had to pay the same rat~ of v,-agt-·..::; as are paid in Austndia, I question whether the dividends would be ~ y­thing like as great as they are now. [::\I r. LESINA: The cc.t is out of the bag. High did­dends means low wages.] I am simply replying to the contention of the other side that these are the richest mines in tlc!e world. Now, if I have any preference at all in the matter it is certainly a preference. in favour of giving en1ployment to white people, though from what I have some­times seen of some white people, I am bonnd to think that some of the coloumd races are­at least their equals. My preference, how­ever, is in favour of the employment of white· people wherever possible. My objection to tbi,c 1notion is that in passing it we are going alto· gether outside our functiom. \Ve in Australia should manage our own business, and we should not attempt to dictate to people 5,000 or 6,000 miles '"'ay. Have we not enough to do to manage o~1r own affairs without telling the Imperial G,>vernment that they ought to dis­allow the introduction of Ohine,,e into the TranS·· vaccl? 'fbere are great and pressinl': local ques­tions which demand our attention instead of havinf?; a whole afternoon wasted by thh; exhibiti<>n of politic"l fireworks. \Vould it not have been better if this afternoon we had: bad before the Hnnse a Bill dt•aling witb some important and pressing matter? There is the Bill of the hon. member for Bowen giving rights tn worrlt-n to practise as barristers and solicitors and conveyancer>; ; anothH 13i!I has to he introduced by the hon. member for ObH,rters Towef', Mr. Dunsf<,rd, dealing with rnining ~ccirl.ent:-; ; in fact tht>re are a nurnbt:r of Bills which could lw,ve been brought undc,r dis­cu,sion this aftPrnoon if the · ime of tbe House had not b'-< n wasted ovel' this motion. At any rate son1et hint; would have been brought orl~ [!Hr. LESINA: \Vha' am your doing now?) I am end<''avonring to dispel some of the ignorance­which nnf rtunatP.ly P-XiRts in t.tu~ rnlnds of m~Luy hon. members opposite. fl\Ir. l>'ot'.\R1'Y: You are an authority rn ignorance at any rate.] I am Ct'I't8in you an•; and although I have been rndeavouring to <hspel the ignor.nJce dil"play~J on the other s~de, I tvould never attempt tn di::;pel the quantity of ignc1ra,nce the l1on. member for Toowoon1ba posse~~es, for I never atte"'Pt the illl)'ossible. Now, if the Im· p<·rial Government, told rm whttt they ought to tell n~~, their reply would hP in the nalure of a snub. [:Yir. LE~ I~ A : Did th• y "nub the other Parliaments?) The fact that they did n<>t nub the other Parliani~llt>-if it j, a fact "t all-dor,, not pro,,e tbar. the other Am,tralian Parliament" did not dt-senie a snub. 1 do not dP.-;lre to ~PE: :t,k at any length on thi~ watter, and I can only aflsert that it is n1v bt·lit->f that this rnution. ic c,~trrit>d, can be }J.rnducLive of no good, a'ud I cannot see \\hat w:.:s to he b -{ined in moving it. I think the hrrn. me m her for Clernwnt only t~~ok this action ftlr electioneeri:t:Jg purposes, and I rm ter my protest against the time of the H"use being- taken up at this early stag-e of the ~e~sion for elPctioneering pur­poses. Certainly anything that I bavp, said cannot be construed as electi(meering tactics­as a matter of fact, it may bave the oppo>,ite effect. If the hon. member for Clermont wishes.

22<1 Chi11ese Labour [ASSEMBLY.] u1 the T!'ansvaaT.

to take up the time of the House, he should bring forward 1nex.sures of pree.sing imtJortance, and then he would get our attention.

:VIr. BURROWS (Cha1·tcre TmceTS) : In listening to the speech of the hon. member for Maranna it appeared tu me that we should be able to claim his vote for this motion, seeing that he claimed that if he only knew how these men in South Africa were going to vote, nr what

wished, he would lmvP been \Vit h them. also said thctt the people in Snuth ,Africa

\:Vere ca,pa.ble of looking aftl~r tbeJnselYPH, and that is what we claim; but •..ye comp1 ,in that they are not given an opportunity of looking after themselves ],y having a v.tte. [Mr. P. ,f. LllAHY: Then why not give tlwm nne '!] That i:-:; what thjR motion 1~ks for. \Yith rega.rd to our undoubted right to interfere iu tbis important tnatteJ, the hon. rnernber for \Varn-'go f"nys \VB

have no such rigl1t; but, aok, bad we noL the right t<> iuterfere "ith :::lonth Afric., when the

ther,• were in troullle. and if 1-'0, sun~ly \,ve -·e the :-:imne right no\v, [:\It·. 1_) .• r. LE:\HY: .Are thl-'y in tl·ouble there ::-1ow ?] Yl_,_,, in gr.· :ttPr trouble than before. ~l_1he trouble before ·_nP war "J.s that thev were afraid that thev v <'nld be han1pered by the :Boers, and they 'ver~ not given a 1

•. ote. They have lle-ld nweting~ iu South ..c\frica, and they have endeilvoured to b,, allowed to fJrotest against this highwhanded ac~iont and they asked for a rt'ferendun1. and th.c:1t was refn~ed them. \V e have been asked how this m»tter concerns Queensland, which is so many thousands of ll1i1Ps a. way from South Africa.; bur. <tre we any further M' ay now than before the war broke out -has the distance increased? That was the time when everyone talked about preHerving the Empire. It was said that we were one ot the brightest jewels in the cro'>vn of the Empire, or smnt>thing to that eff..,ct, and our meu \\·ere a:' ked to go to South Africa to protect the Empire. [Mr. ,T, LllAHY : Your party said they were '"'swashbucklers."] Now, who have reaped tbe advantages which those men the hon. member for Bnlloo calls "swashbucklers "---(laughter)-­aided in procuring? The capitalists are retaining nil the advantages, and the unfortunate kafirs are worked like beasts; their llodif-' are mangled and bruised, and even when they kept away from the work they were taxed and compelled to work. Cap­tain Cress well, who held a very high military position in South Af, ica and took a prominent part -in the war, »aid it would he better to employ white men than even to employ the kafir. Now I would like a vote taken on this matter, but bBfore that vote is taken I should like to quote frotH the South Afn:can G1wrdwn. Listen to what is eaid there-

).To speeches however eloquent, no m11jority however great. no ent.hu~iasm however sponta.neous could have done as mneh for the anti·Asiatic cause as the tactics adopted by the Chinese party to prevent freedom of speech.

These people had gathered together to express their dieopprobation of this hig-\;l-handed method; but the capi<alistH combined together and paid men 15.,. a clay for the purpose of breaking up the meeting. ::'\ow, I have a copy of an affidadt by one of these ITIOl residing in J (Jhannr'3burg, and he swears as follows :-

1. I wa"' approaehed by )!fr. A., who aRkod me t,.} attend the public meeting of the African Labour League to be held in t\Jo \'ranrlerers' Hall on .Jlond::ty, ltth De~ ocmber, Hl0:3, and thc~re to the utmost of 111)" oower. by m·eating a. disturbance or othenvh:.e, 1n·enmt a vote being taken or carried b:v the said At'J•ican Lahonr League antagrmi1-'tic to the introflnction of Asintic labour, or a vote being takPu in favour of the referendum of the white inhabitaiJiS of tl1e 'l'ransntal.

2. rrhat I did attend the sahl meeting on 14th Deeember, 1903, and thm·eon carried out my instruc-

tions m:: far as posf-1ible by shouting- and olJ:::trncting generally aud tbus preYenting the :5pcakers being llf'ard.

:-3. 'Phat for so doing I rcceivf'd the sum of 15s. as promised by )1r. A. when he engaged me.

Another person swore thac. he attended the meeting on the understanding that he was to rf.Cd ve 103. fer doing tbe utmm~t in hi, power to prt>vent a vot8 being- carried by H1e Africn.n Labour Lrngue :1ntagonis' ic to the irnport. tion of Asiatics, and that he did so by shouting "\Ye '.vant Chine~:k'," and ot11e1WiHn disturbing the n1eeting and preventing the speakers being heard. This mnn states that he demauded the ;-:;urn promised for his ~ervice::-;, hut had been reftmed on the gr .. unds that he bad received the lils. promised. He adds that he did not receive that sum, nor had he signed any receipt for it. This ;,rose frnm the fnct tl,at the pa,-m,•nt was n1ade in a hall in a centre uf the tow·n abour, \vhich hundreds of nH:n cmL n~gated, and 111any who had not attPnded thc-> ITlet';'ting wertt in and u~ed the nan1es \Jf tllo.se vvho were engaged, and ob·a.ined a rt_.\'i.'ard for Sf-rvicf-;:.; never reildf--red, with the re,nlt that when the men -,, ho Dctnally did attend and n,:-;sist in oh~tructiug the rr1eeti1Jg came to get pnid, they were d< nou11cerl a im­pr"tors. I have little further to '·y, as I am anxi()us for thi~ que:-:.tion to go to the \·ote. I f;UppoRe rnnst bun. rr1en1her~ havf-' nad the spm-che.s delivered in the}\ dt->ral Parlianwnt on this subject, and I think it is quite clear to any persnn who has t ·k'n the t.rnnble to ntake him­self acqnainted with t e fc~cts that if there is any indestry in the world which can afford to pay fur white labour it i- these mines in South Afric;;, I ha ,.e very much p!t·asnre in support­ing the motll)n,

HoN. R. PHILP ('J'ownsd//e): I do nut wish to taJk this Inotion out, but I rnnst ~my it is Vt->ry amusing to see prominent rnembt-rs of thi~ House who opposed the sel!dit•g of any help to S(mth Africa at the time ,,f the war, now rnaldng so much noise about ChinPS"-the hem. rr·ernber for Clermont, and the· bun. member for Charters Towers. I believe the latter dterwarde volun· teered to go to South Africa, hut took good care that the doctor would not r-aos them. \Vhen I was in South Africa, I epoke to a well-informed gentleman there, who to d me tJ-.at if they paid the same rate of wng ... s <1S we pay to miners in A11stralia they could w• ·rk the njnes. The wages of white men at that time were .£1 for eight hours. But what right have we to inter­fere in this CJUesl ion ? If we m Queensland made mining laws wl ich do not suit the peoJ•le of New s .. urh vVales, would not we send up a howl if they interfend in the matter? [An honourable m• mb• r: Kot on the labour question.] On any qne.,tioll. I would not have spoken at. all bur. for the remarks made by the Secrer ary fur Agriculture with regard to the conrliti<>n • f these pour Chinese. He asked what wuuld becumP of t.hem when they went tH the Tran~vaaJ '! Does he not know that no country in thf-' v. oriel ha..s (iQl\8 Dl?re to abolish slavery than tl e Bri i-h Ewpir' ? D>•es he infer that these Chinf"se are g(1ing as slaves to South Africa? [Mr. LESI~A: Yes.] If all r he servants ernplnyed by th~-' hou. lll(:'In 11er WPre as frt'e as will be the Chint-·St' who are ·going to South Afric;--l, they won ld he fn·e mf--'n. I h:-lve heen in Natal, where theH:' iH ju:-:.t as much fre<.-·don1 aH in Qqeen . ..,lat•d, rfhe DUlllhPr of whitr> D1f'll there is abou< 50.000, the mmt er ,,f Zulus 780,000, and the number d lnrli n coolies ()0,000. It is very :-trange tbat iu Nah-d tht-V canuot get snfficient Znlus to v<ork in th'- r ,n,-li ld,-iu fact, they wil1 not do it. If a Zulu is a,;ked to work on a s,nga.r plantatio,, h will R·1y it. iR c~~olie\ work. [The HOME i::lECRETAHY: \Vho made. it coolie's work?] You might as wella"k mewhofirst people~

Additional Sitting Da.v. [2 JUNE.J 227

Africa with black men. It is no bnsiness of ours what they do in Sonth Africa. Do we want them to kill all the black j>enple, a ntl ""Y they will have only a few white P""ple in s .. uth ...._L~..ftica? \Vhy do not we t·~.ble a tno1 ion on 1 he J<ipant::'stJ-RUt-Sia.n war, and expr'2s:;:; our opini()n Jn 1 ha~'? \V hy du \VB nos '<t.Y to I{nssia., "Yuu had nn right to send Rus.,ja,ns ov. r to China .and capt~lrl-' l\I "11churia, and tight gainst the br,tve,Japanese'!" \Ve have as lllrlCh nght to in­terfen~ in the one qncsti~m a~ tlto nther. Only h1st night h'8 wt-re discu;-;:-;ing the engagemtmt of an :unbatl~arl.or t(J go to 11ongolia, and now we ::tre pc ltf-~stin;.:; a·~ain:;t :;;ome rvt)ni"Jrllictn"i going to ~outh .... -'\.fri< t. \Vhy, th~~y \vili Ma.v, ".J oneR, Z-}, 1een:"'!an( l i~ a plact' which dnes not .. vant ~ few Ch~nl'-'~t-: to gn to Sonth Afric·t ; tve \':ill h~ne no~lling tu do H it:h tluf-'ensland, ,. nnrl he \vill n1lt g~·t a.n:v order-; from the Chin':-':.·/. Hun. n1en1~)ers can :-:r'~ wb t gra\': nar.ionu! qnestion~ the pas ... ing of this n~:-.:o!ut.jrm 1nay involve. Qn8f'I ... la1lcl n1ight have to gpt ber gunho::tt.-. out, and thPy v, onJd bav" t•J lw manned by the Lab1JUr party now, becan~e I do not know of any hone~t r __ spect.a'lle Hl tD \\thu .• ·ould fight under the 1

TH~t'~ent Fe· lerall\Iini:·;terfi)I' \Var, \V ho:-:ti~mati~(:'d then1 a-; "cowards, swa,:;hbncklers, c-u.d curs." No man wonld ti;,{ht under a fiag H:here the Minh;;· er for \Var was a man '" ho described them in that way. [The 'l'REASUlEit : Are you going to he a rebl=\1 ?] Certainly I \V01J]cl

be a rebel 'f he was :i\Tinister f<>r \Var. The hon. mt"Inber for Cla!nont would have us do sometlling- which Inay possibly embroil us in a war \Vith a powArfu1 naJ,ion ·whose popnlt.ttic}n nurnhers some 400,000,000. \Vhen China <tnd ,Tapan bec,>lY!e L"t fricmds we shall h>tve to be very careful what: WP ;:;ay about that big country. When Ch ine,;e cnrne t;J _,:-\u,)trali;\ it iR time enough furtH<topr(1te.st. \VPh veaiready"'aidthatwe\~.lnt no 1110re Chinm;p in A_u~tralia. Let us stdP at that. Fur ll'-' in queensland, a people nutnbei-ing only a11ont 500,000, tn say to a country \vith a. population of 400,000,000, "You must not send your peopl~ to· South Afric >,"is a piec, of pre­sumption. \Ve have no right to communicate with the Secretary nf State for the Colonies on the subject. All such communications must go thr· •u:;-h the Governor-Gen_·ral of Australia, and the Feder:>l Parliament have already expressed their opinion on the rrntter. \V e should be quite sati,;ned with what tiF·y have done. \Vhy should the hon. member for Ulermont, for a little paltry e~ectioneering purpose, takB np the thne

·of the H, ~use this aftern Jon with a dii-icu~sinn .1s to whether WP should 1nake a protest ag~-,]n:-:,t 20,000 Mnng-nlians to Sonth Africa? Only Ja,t night WA dibcussed the a_ppointrn~nt of a man sent as Queensland commercial J;{ent to Clilna, Hong-kong, and ~Ianila, which is now an appen­dage of the United States.

At I o'clock tlte I-Iouu, in accordance u·ith Sc:s~'>iorwl Order. 2Jl'occeded u:ith Goternmeut business.

ADDITIONAL SITTING DAY. The PRE:\IIER: I beg to move that the

House at its rising do adjourn until 3 o'clock to-morrow. I take this step because we are now in the third week of the session, and we are still on the Address in Reply. I have no desire to curtail debate in any way ; in fact, I think that members on both sides should he given full opportunity to say what they desire to say on the Address; but three weeks is much more than the average time devoted to the discus3ion on the Addrecs in Reply, and we ought to close the debate this week, and be prepan~d for business when we rneet next Tuesday. Business is waiting for hon.

members, and therefore there is no necessity for delav on that score. I would point out to the HousB and to the leader of the Opposition that last week he as3ured me that he would endeavour to assist me in closing the debate this week. That is the reason why I submit this motion. There is not much prospect of the debate being closed to-nig-ht. [:\lr. J. LEAHY: Ono member on your side took up hours yesterday.] ,,~ith ro~arcl to the implica­tion that some ·of the mpmhers on this side. took up a long time yesterday, I say that the longe~t spooche~ have not ldflle· from this side. but from the Opposition side. [Mr. J-. LEAHY: I have not spoken at all yet.] I am not com­plaining', but I ar:1 stating, the facts in reply to the intorjr,ctioll of the hon. member. It is to be expeetBd, of course. that the bulk of the speeches ,~ ill corne frorn the Oppositiou, and that they may prolmbly he a little loll er than those from this side. H01vevor, I think with this evenin" and the whole of to-morrow there ought to b,; sufficient time to allow every mem­ber who has not yet spoken to do so.

Hox IL PHJLP (Totmsl ''lr): If I thought '1-vn f:houid filii· h this debate to-nwrrow, I shoulcl have cal!t•d "l\ot formal" to this n1otioll: hmn ",;:hat I can learn from this ,i,IP aJiil r.he nthcr side of th0 House. there is no chauc0 nf it clo~iug to-morro,v. ..[\._ num­h('r of LlPnltJPl'S han:- not ::;poken at all, and from what has tran,pircd during the debate,

1 thP,v VPl',V auxious to get son1o explanation frotH G(rvr-rurne11t in answer to son1e of thP serious charges InadP by this sido of the House. I t\ume;ht last week that the debate ,~vould bP fiuisrled this week. but I can see now that it would bc> impossible to do so. It is a most unnsual thing in the third week of th<• ~p; '3ion to commence to sit on Friday. [The PRE~fiER: I do not desire to alter the existing practice, hut I am anxious to get businns through.] I am anxions also to get business through; but a good many members on this sir-le who have not spoken wish to speak, and there are a good many members on the other side who wish to speak, and there h not tlw slightest chance of getting the speeches through in one night and one day. Although we ha,~o been sitting three weeks, this is onlv the seventh day we have sat. A good deal~ ha.,, happened in the interim since last session that the House would like to get some satisfaction upon. ThC' JYiacdonald case is a serious matter, and :l\linisters have not nttcmpted to take it up as they ought to have done. The Promier has stated that the Address in Rt'ply is not the time when the matter should be discussc d; but when one of hiS ;;trongcst supporters wished to move the adjournment of the House in order to do so, the :~1wakcr r.aid he would be able to do so m the d~batc on the Address in Reply; but we have hac! no opportunity. I think some member of the ;\linistr:v ought to get up and c•xplain \~by the :.finistrv differed with the judge and Jury at rto~kha-mpton. and the Full Court. LThe P RK~IIER: I-I a ve vou never known 1t done before '1] l cnta'inlv have never known in Ouc•r•mlancl so had a 'case as the Macdonalds­r;'ot lv•arlv so bad. HowcVC'l\ this is not Lbe 'ti!DP tn discuss it. [_A Govern­;rJPnt member: \Vhat about the ··Hopeful" case'] That was not nearly as bad. and most of the "•'Orkiug men of (~uoensland

against the hallging- of the men Hopdul " case. [~fr. DUNSFORD:

J\:<'nniff case was as bar!.] I do not thmk Kenniff case vas as bacl as the Macdonalcl

ea, .. , I have o-iycn reasons why the debate should not he~ ourtailnd. and it has been lengthened because of the great silence of the

228 Ariiitional Sitting Da~1- I ASSEMBLY.] Additional Sitting Day.

?\Tinisters and their followers. You. Sir. have said that this is the time to discuss that case, and we H:ust bo\v to your ruling, and we haye dis­CUSi0CI it as temperate-ly as possible during this deb1t-·. Onlv two me m bC'rs on this side have mentioned th(• matter as yet. [The TREASL'RER: Do ;-ou obj,•c-L to being given more time to discu:;:s it[] I f

1o not o-bject to rnorc time, but I am pointing out to the Pn;mier whv this thing is taking so luug to discuss. It is Owing to his o·,vn silence. Besides, since this ckbatc wa -, opened, a grl•at nu1nbcr of things have c~Y11e to the knowlPclgc of hon. rrw1nbcrS. Some of tlw things that h~vc been referred to were unicr"J\Vrl to me before, and that is the reason whv hou. n1en1bcrs on this side wish to sav sonlerhjng on the rnattcr. I have done rr1~r bcsl---uucl I intend to do mv best-to mu'la!l the spc'echcs. Tbere have b'een no very long speech(", op this side since the hon. member for Carnarvou has spoken. I lhink the c pccches of those on this ''iclc of the House have bcfm no lo11ger than those of mcrnbcr'i opposite. The hon. mcrnber for Bo 1,'/en spoke for b·Yo anr! a-half hour-, and the hon. member for ::\i>tckay spoke fm three hours, and I think ITJVBt hon. mcn1 bers vvould sooner hsh-'n to the; hon. nwmb0r for ::\Iackav for three hours th'-'n to the hon, m cm ber for' Bow en for three minutes. I hope the Premi<'r will withdraw the motion. I know hem. me m bm·s on this sidn of t.he 1-Ionse have n1adc engagerncnts to leavr: town on Friday, and it will be a great inconYenicncc to them to break those engage~ InClliJS and come to the IIousc. Of course, if the House de-cides to sit on Friday, they will hu,ye to break those cnga,goments. [Mr. 1\L\X­\\ .ELL: \V hat about the inconvcnic'JICC' to muu bers who come from the far North'] I re­lll0Jnbcr the tnnr· 1vbcn those 1nernbers Vi'ho come from the far North kept the House sitting months longer than there '''aS anv occa.~:ion for. It, is not a good thing to try an~l r~rcveut. 1_rwmbe~·s spe_aking .. \Vh0n I occupied tne pos1t10n of Prcnuer I trwcl all mcthotls to curtail thc dcl,ates, anrl I found that the best tDI.!'thod was to giYP as much frcedo1n as poosiLlc in tlebatP. The more you try to stop ,Ic-t;c.te. the longer :spocchPs you will get. I hope the PrcL'lcr ·w1ll sec his wav to '''ithc1ra\v this motion, and I ca.n as."1rc him I will do m 0 hest

1 to han tht' debatP finished nl•xt week .

. ~f _wt- (tO 81~ on Friday it is not po~siblo to fiBtRh the (1f'Ua.te· on that. clav.

:\Jr. J. LE~\l!Y (IJullon) ;c I am astounded. after the appeal made b.>- the leader of the Oppo:;:nhon to th~' Prernier. that the hou. gcutlcman ta~P~ no 11otice of that appcal-I do not '':V rt an appoal t'xactlv. Tlw PremieT muy0d n1otion very uic'P1y. and

ple:t:--Pcl to that he i, not trvin·~· hfJ\1. into ~hortc~uiu~;· fhcir

or of that kiucl. or' conr"' arH:l i1e 1niuht. t.hat if

chosP. questinn whethPr counh·y ' <F~ld :;tand it.

not jn-,"i~' . .l:le ai tlti~ There nre fiftpeu rucrnlJc-r:-; on has(! n0t spokpn yPt. EYcrv Olll'

fllC'ml:('l :; H)"[H"f' a COlt:-;tit.ufenc~;. th0 ~nXEf' to he hPanl in th'i:-;

a;'; !10:1. E:'l'.'i vvho have alread"': aJld hfn: the ]ym. n,c!Jtlemall

c•xpcct tbr -::p fiff0en nwm Lcrs to rnak(~ their ~JlO~'clr-~s i!J fiv\" ~ix hours? Lonr: srC'cchc~ ~1a',P. ecu nuu1e n1PrrlLPr,, nn the GoYcrn-~ent ::;iilc: of thP -while hon. members hk.:) m:y~elf havf' bPPn "'.vaitirr.{ all the 1vcek for au OPJ;Ortuuitv. , ?\ uthitl{.~· i,-;.: of n1o:re import­ance h1an t!wt t 1wrc dwulcl l;c full and free ~Phat~ on f_o .. .'\ __ ddtrss in R.cpl:v. 'l'ne occasio11 Is nrnq.ne Hl~ (\)ucen.:-;]ancl; it is unique in Australia. \\ e ha .. .Ye llO\'' a new Government

practically meetine Parliament for the first time. ThP Iat.-· Uo-v,crnrrte.nt-the "continuou:s·· U<JYP1'1lll1C'IJt it ha'! hceu cal1ec1-was in ollicP. in a more or less varied form, for ten or twclve­yea,r':l. This Governn1cnt \Yere onl,v in p{nver for a few ·week:-; last sc,~-jon. No inrnurtant 1natters "\Yere introduced. 'fhev sai~1 thev \Vant.ed timP·--there "'.'aS to be 3..' curt-ailnw1!t of the pnblic ~oryico and a :-:trai~ht0ni11~· of thE'' fiuaJJCP:', and \\·hat \\"P..; 1vant.cd wa-; admin-i:-:tration. ...._'\ftcr a rt- of ~PYPn nl' Pight tG.onth~ the · haY<' !IlPt l lou~f'. und i,-; it not fair thitt 11 110vv Covcrnmo11t-uew n1eu \vith a JlE""' pnlicy--:-;hould allow ll~ to haYP thP fuJlp,,t a!Hl frec,-;t di:-;cu~"ion wit.h l'C'(!·anl to their adminic-tration? [Mr. TcRNER: IY elL we

ant to t<-i, e yun an extra day to di,ctbo it.] It is not a que -tion of an extra dav,Lccause I know some hon. members on this side made engage­ments last week to go to Ipswich to visit coai mines-it may have something to do with J ones. Aro the-y to break those engag·ements '? The Premier should have given the;n notice in time. [The- TRK-I.Sl'RER: The business of the country cannot wait for them.] I know the hon. gentleman's idea of bw;iness, and I shall have another opportunity of telling him what I think of his ideas. The point at t1w present time is this-and the Premier should know it, with his long experience in this HousE' and iu thC' chair--that there arL' certain things ·which ha.-e to be said on the Addrees in Reply or on the Financial StatemPnt. rTho PRE:<iiER: Hear, hear~] It may be as well said the one time as the oth0r. I never shall bo a party to preventing a n1an saying what he has tD say in the House in a reasonable wav, but I do not think it is advisable that he' should get up and say it again in the debate on the Finan­cial Statement. I think that i;; wron~·- as it would be a waste of time. But everv ;}1ember has a right to express his opiniOn of thP actions of the Governrne.nt. during· the rt~ce---, on the Address in Reply. In the debate on the Financial Statement it is not absolut.clv uecessary that everyone should speak at alf: but on an occ·1sion like this every haiL n1C'1nber ~hould be given the fullest opportuuity of sa.v­mg what he has to sav. Of course. the Pre­mier says he 1vill get it~ but. a number of nH:m­bers are not ready for it. Some of them have to go home, and, in any cn~c, there i~ plenty of time, as we have rnet six weeks or t.\vo m_onths before the ordinary time. It is a very w1so tlnng that every hon. member should have the opportunity of studying the al·gu­mPilts pro aud con. lie mu~t i.Je in a po..-;ition to discuss the speeches of other hon. m'enJb•rc It is very difficult to ascertain what are ideas of some hon. members on the other side, becau -e their minds are not lucid. and their

arn ~omewhat mixed; runl Utt' cas{'. vou ','.ant to read throuo-b

in Hunsard, y-her<' t.bc r~port·Pr~ into COlTilllOil-sc-n~e Eugli~ll. -..p

eau see ·what it is they have t.o ~av. this n1c-an::l that 1vc the replying to them. the

th0 countrv can be carried on pr'rl.'"· l cel'taillly thi~1k it would bt> a of til.r:lf' if thi:" dcl1a.tc is allowPd to tttkP it~ c JlH'· C' ju tho ordinarr 1Yav. It v,-ill nnf take -rnor(' than da vs· JH'Xt~ "\vPck. I to spc:ak for ~n hour. perhaps t1vo hnurs. 'A'ill uot be nccc:,fmry for n1e at thi" staf(C' of Hw dc-batP to to over the \vhole gruuud oYer aud OYPr again: they nood only lightly tou;h upon eubjects that ha.-e already bec•n thoroughly dealt with. It will only make a day's difff'tc'llCG in any case. Fro1n ~-vrhat I hear, th0ro are manY members on the­PrenJic·r's 01vn side ,~,rh~ do not '''ant to sit to-morrow. LThc TREASL'RER: No one want-

Additional Sitting Dap. [2 .JuxE.] Addil"iu111rT Srtting Da.71. 229

tu it to-n1orrO\\-; it is just a casp of necessity.] I tC'eolleet when the Treasurer \1 as on this side he u...:ccl to give us weary, dreary speeches by t!H' h1Jur, alld he did not care two pins about the business of the country. Not for the last t~.:n yPars have such intelligent speeches been delivm J from th, ,o benches as during the last t",o W!'eks. It has been an education to the House and to the country. I can say for myself that if tho Premier, whose speech \\·as Yory conuiliatory, will give way on this ruatter, I an1 ptepare·d to rocot him in every wa:.· I can as a private member. [The PRE­:,n~::;~: You are rr1orc than a priYate rncm­bcr.J That may be, because I happen to sit on the front Opposition bench. But I hold that no rnan Lc~ornes _vv~ser or more important bc·cause. he 1s a J\1mtster. There is only this to be sa1d m hts favour, that he has had some expenence of office. But the privileges of evc'ry member of the House are the same and evPry one is entitled on an occa"ion ol this kilJii to have tho fullest freedom to state his opunons fully and fairly and as lengthilv as the rules of the House will permit. But how­OVl'l' long the speeches have been on this occasion they have been as I said exceedingly intl'lligcnt, and no on~ can sa~ they were dirc~ted i_n any manner towards the purpose of stonowallmg. Some of them may have been UJHluly spun out, owmg to interjections from the other stde; but, as a rule, they have been to. the pomt. To say nothing of those on this .s1e1e who want to sp(~ak, we arc all anxious to hear tlw Treasurer. And then there is the ~ImnP Secretary, who had a great deal to sa~ '":st year about a variety of things I shall call lns attention to. I want to know "hy hP has changed his views during the last twelve mouths-;whethcr it is office, or what it is. These thmgs want a lot of criticism and thev ought to !,\et it. The TrPasuror to!;! us when m opposition that he was sent here to criticise the qc;v,crnrnC'nt, and that it was his business to cntJCise the Government: and he did so at grc~.t length and on rnany occasions. Then. agam. wo are all anxious to hear the polished cloqucnro of I he Socrdary for Public Lands on many Important fJUPctions, particularlv with regard to sottling people on the land.' Alto­c;cthcr. I think i.t would letd to the quicker '1c:~;-,atch of busuw ;s If the Premier would v-ynndraw hls motion.

Ho;>.J. D. H. DALHYMPLE (Jfcu1azy): It has not, hecn the practice to sit on Fridav at this ·-~ar;y stage of thC' session, and there is~ one re~'<lll why I f'ntirely object to meeting on Fnday. I haYe said more than once that I am. exceedingly anxiou~ that the party op­pnsltP should remain 111 power. Friday is :.tlways accounted an un]uckv dav. and circum­stances do not justify the. Government in ta}~Ing any. c~allcc···; they arc too insecure. Tnordore. It rs out of consideration for them that r a.sk them not to sit to-morrow. If the last Gowermnc'nt had not sat so often on Fri­d,:_vs they might now be sitting on those benches. \Vith regard to getting on with busmcss, do hon .. membPrs suppose that WP

arc_• no: c1mng busuwss when ·we arc dealing with lhe affairs of the past recess and of a futun·. PxtC'nding, in Dr. 1\lax\vell's case, to t h: nnxt five years? Is it not business to criticise. to infonn the public? The 'rfoasuror fnJl::: U:' he VI ant:s business, and his busines:o., \Ve naturally expect, is of much importance. As to wh0ther hP will be successful or not is anothN thing. Ancl here I am reminded of the "nswer of an old woman who was doctoring a. small child, and whose treatment was ques­tioned by another old woman. The old woman. objecting to be interfered with, said,

.. I rlo not know who can treat. the child if I cannot: 1 han• hac! twoln• children and haYP buric'd ten.'' 1 arn not at all certain that when thP 'TrPasurcr cloc~ get to business hr- will not bury another tt>n.

I-:fox. SIR ~\RTHCR RCTLEDGE (Jiuru­llOa): I am one of those who object at thi,; early stage of the se:ssion to sitting· on an addi­

tional day. There was never any [7.30 p.m.] attempt on the part of the late

Government. to limit the right of hem. members opposite to criticise the action and policy of the Government as announced in the Governor's Speech. Such tyranny as that would not have been tolerated, and had the Government attempted it recourse would have been had to tactics known as stone­walling. [:\lr. LESINA: \Vhat about Standing Order No. 136 ?] It is not the custom on occa­sions like this to import the power contained in Standing Order Ko. 136. I should like to see the Government dare on this occasion to put iuto operation that section as an exercise of power at this stage of the session. I can understand that when the session is consider­ably adYanced, and a lot of business is in arrears, and when members are using obstruc­tive tactic.s, that it is right to m;e the power con­ferred by the Standing Orders, but an attompt to use such powers at the opening of a session, as has been suggested. would be to provoke members beyond all endurance. \Ve know the outcry that was raised when certain standing orders were put into operation by the previous Government. and ho\v it was termed an outrage on the liberties of members. I am referring now to that section which permits a member to move "That the question be now put." [The PRE~!IER: \Ve have no idea of doing anything of the sort.] I do not sug­gest it in any way. I think the Premier has too much solid common sense to attempt a course of that kind. At the same time nothing

1 is gained by curtailing liberty of speech~[~he PnE1IIER: There is uo desire to]-by malnng us sit on Friday, It is a sort of rod held over us, and the Government practically say, "\Ye will flog you if you exercise your right of speech." \\'hy should one member hoYe a greater right to ::-pe _j;;: than another·: \Yhy .-:;honld a fe\'" 1ncn arrogate themselyes the ri~d1t to spf'ak, to the exclu~ion of other~? I :-oay eycry 1ne-mher ,,·ho is capal.:Jc of ex­prc·-::::~illg him:.;clf, and has Yicws to express. ~o long· a:-:: he cloe-, ::::;o in morleration. has a ri:2ilt to Le heard. r~,~r. LESIXA: The Federal lo~islators :sit on Friday.] Yes. but the circum­stailC<\'> arC> uuitiUf'. Only an in~ignificant pro· portion of tlw Fecler~tl rnernbcrs rcsid0 in :\l0lb mnw. They go there for a specific purpobe. aud thE'Y lm·"-e noth~ng· ch-o to do down th<'re hut le;l·islate. !The PREMIER: Tltc-re i::::; a 1argf-~r proportio11 of Federal Inem­bPr-. residPnt in c\lelbourne than of State rnptnlicL• rPsidmtt in 1~ri~llalJ(•.J 'fl1ey stay there becan>e thev arc ohli£Pcl to Tc,idl" there for the time being:but how many F<edeml mem­bers from (2ueensland. South Australia, New South \Vales. \\'estem Australie, or Tasmania. though they may beccnne tPinporary residents of ~lr'll:ourne. can hJ -;aid tn lL• bonrf fide rr.;;idents? They arc n1Prely r0"·ic1f'nt:-~ for tlw time _l-H~ing r:\Ir. LESIXA: And that applie:s to this !:-louse as well.] The o"ly objPcc those members have i.J t'f'ing- i11 ~Iclhournc 1 .... to atte11d the ~"ittiu,!.l.~ of tliP FPdcral Parliarr1ent, 1mt t.he san1e circ:nrnstnncPs do not apply to 1nernL·e1·~ of the State I,ecislature of Queenslar:d. The circnmsta1:ce" are not by any means rarallPl. T an1 an ach·ocnte for g-norl tcmpPr. and eyery­thin'_'.· hPin~ dmw as plca:-~a1•tly a~ pos·-il>lc. and I -\ ould 11ot. like to ~ec the Pr(~lnier run the risk of rnffiing the fpelin::-s of n1eml'er~ unduly,

230 Adlitio;;al Sitti11g Dav. =ASSEMBLY.] A1lditional Sitting Da.IJ.

or of exciting· an a·mount of hostility which there is no dispo~ition to exhibit, l>y forcing U:3 at thi~ eal'J 1.' stage of the se~.siou to :sit on an extra da-,'. •

Mr. vVHITE (.llu•g;·u .. e): Ever since this motion has been brought forward 1nernbors haw· becm rushing about the House trying to fiud pairs so that they might make arrange, mPnts to got tnvay. I have seen b,vo or three on this sid0 working with that object, and I haYG my-elf been trying to get a pair. [Mr. C:,OPER: I will pair.] I think it unfair that che House should be asked to sit on Friday, and I hopn before the Premier ask- us to sit on this extra day he \\'ill give us notice, and make his motion anplc· to uC'xt Friday.

1\lr. FORSYTH (('rrrpenlaria): I do not think the busine, ~ of the countrv ·will he ox­podit<'d by sitting to,morrow. If I thought thqt, ·.,~~ sjtting to~rnorrow \VC could finish tho d\!LatC', tha.t ·v•:onlrl he a very gnorl thing, but I arn i!wlinPcl to rhiEk that. if the I-Ioust> is forc.ccl i:1to thi' posi+;ou at this early period of rbc < ssion, instc-~acl of expediting businC'ss it will probably prolong the debate. A largo ll'dmb0r of rnPrnbcr.- are engaged in in'!port::1Dt

\':hen the I-Iou.sc is not sitting, and nuln~· them. like e:ys.::lf, hayc mad<~ busine~s en­

.~--::n ~F·ment -., bccau~c thny distiJtetly understood that the House would not sit to, morrow. Then, a.J?:ain, a large nurnbcr of 1nPn1bers have gone hor 1e for the time being, and the consequence io that if we si(; to,morrow there will be a dull IInusc. and hon. Jnmnbers 'vho rnav be speak­ing ·will not be able to tl row the sal11e a1nount of f~nthusiasm into their rernarks as \Vhen thcv ha"'' a full House to listen to them. The Premier himself said he would like a holidav to-rnorrow, and after the general expression 0£ npinion on this matte'" from this side of the H•,usc, which I think should have som<. effect I hope that he will make un his mind not t~ Mit tn-n1orrow. ~

J\Ir. P .• J. LE~\HY (Wf1rrc'!o): I trust that the Premier will not persevere with this JHot.ion. I haYe !11adc• arrangC'rncnts to go to Tucnvuon1ha to-n1o1TOW on a business nmtter. [-Th(' PHEJ\1Ir··.P.: You can go. The hou. mem­hC'r has got. tht· pride of place to-night. J Yes; hnt. I w:mlcl like to l<•arn -.omething from the debd<•. awl ae, vet I haYe heard \'erv little frorn hon. D1Prfl b'crs opposit,~ of an inst"'"ructivC' nature I "\Vuut to n1akn up rny mind as to whethe_ this Go,,crnmcnt is a g-ood or bad one, for ~~t pr''SEmt. the judgmcmt has gone forth tha.t thny haY-:' fai!ed b;v default, and I \·,aut to list<m to tlw ::VJinie icrs' defcucc, if thev ha Ye :my; but if 1 am compcll•·d to go to Too, \VOornba to-lTIOl'l'O\\'. I Inay form a wrong opinion of the G.overnrn0nt. There arc manv rnPnlbfi~s on this side who are engaged i~1 business, w bo are not profesr;ional politicians, who havP itnportant \vork in addition to parliamentary ma.rJer,;. I may be told that that is what we are paid for, but I think it will be a very bad day for Parliament and thf' countrv when the House is corn, roscd altogoth0l: of men who give their wholP time to politics. It is cleeirah!c that we should have l11C'll here rcprPf 0nting the l'ariouH indus­tries of the country" a..ncl we' cannot expPct such men to sit here day after day. f!.VIr. TPR!\ER: Then they have no right to draw their scrPws.] I bf'liRve that the majority of hon. members on this side arc quite willing to give up their screws, and nothing would give me grcat,f'r pJrasure than to record my vote to that effect. l'ntil we abolish payment of mPmbers I do not think we will be likelv to have r;oocl goyernment as in the good" old tirrH.'S V~'ht'n there \VaE no payment of merr1bers.

\Vht>ro is the crying necessity for this motion'? \Ye have started very early this year, and, judging frorn past experience, it does not rnake 1nuch diffc·l'(::ncc how rnany clays a WC'Ck we c;it becat.tSe we finish the session ,bout the sa1~1c tirne eYcry yrar. There arc tvvclvc rnem­hers on this side who wish to speak yet, and \Vho Ci.l'C:~ a11xious to enlighten hon. n1mnbers opposir<~ a11d t.ho conntrJ: ·with thei~ views yariuus mat i c~rs. There 1s uo question tha;.., \YD :-~it to-nwrrow, it vvill interfere very seri­ously '"·jth tho mlgagerrlCni...s of son1c hon.

an cl I do not see any reason why we four clays a \Neck so early jn_ thE...

There arc rnauy n~a ons ,.-hy we .iwuld ha.n• au cxtPndcd clt·batc on the ..:\ddrc~b in Reply which were not so appal~ent in vears, and ·why should the_ hon.

\\:ant to stifle thP debak ': Of cour:-;c, v:i'·h his servile ruajority--

Th. ~~pr~.-\l(EH.: Ordc'r! P . . ] . : Well, with his obedient,

a.ncl chained-up majority---The ~PL:.AKER.: Order! '\Ir. P. J. LEAHY: He eau do that; but

th;t is uot a fair ;vay to treat this House, ('Specially_ at this (~arly stage o.f _the_ sess~o~1, und I aga1:.1 C'tltcr n1y protctrc against h1s actlO.il.

J'dr. BURHOV\'S: 'l'ho arguments adduced bv the othC'r side against sitt.iug to-n1orrO\V are y:;ry peculiar. We are told that they wa~tt to g"'.~t. avvav to-rnorrow, because they have ~nv!l-te hu~ine~.:~ to att~-ud tu. The idea ?£ men t:~lhng thPmselyus legislators not \V?-nhng t~ s1t to~ 1110!TOW hecaus1.~ thev have pnvatc worl.;: to do: \Ye, on this sid0, wm~t to' 1t to~rrwrrow, bcc...tuse Lhere is importaJJt public busmess to be done. Then t-hey say that thcr~ are n~any lllC'lll bers who wish to talk: bui; ts not tl1at a .further .re,~~ou for s)tting- to-rnorn.nv? It vnl~ g1ve i hP In rnore tirne- in which to air their elo­qnouco. They say that they will not be able t) hear what ''· c on thts srdc have to say: but they can read it in I-lonsurd, and, as a Inatter of fo.ct. thcv have not brought forward any arguments ~which nr:ed

1a scriou~ .reply.

.Another argurnent. adva.nccct for nc?t s1tt:ng to­lllorrow is that the I-iousP Inct earher this year than usual. \Vhut is the use of sitting earlier unless WC' n1akc use of our opportunitic,..;, and o·eL on vvith busine~;;; '? ~ \nothPr rpaso11 giYcn for 11ot sitting- to-D!Ol'fO'' is that ;:nernbe~·s -, t::r• not. forced to sit on Friday so cad:y !n the session toforc. Thcv \VCrP not forr:0d to du so for the YC'fv goocf l.'c-:ason that thc latf' G0vcrnnwut had ~no business ready. TinH: after tirno the latr Co\"Crn m cut had no busi­n ;s for the House• to do, and we had to adjourn in order to givo them time to prepare Bills. rrhis Govcrnn1ont have g wholP ~hcaf of wn· important Bills r< 'Ldy, and I thin!< that if hon. nwm lwrs y, ant to talk at sucn grc~at Jcn~th \VP should ~ii not ·n1ly on Friday. 1mt ah'u on ~Ionclay and even other dav.

l\Ir. :\iACARTNEY (Too·wonq): i should not have spoken if it had not been for the remarks made by the hon. member for Charters Towers. After the remarks which he has made, and seeing that a proposal ,., as made by th8 present Secretary for Public Lands last: session that we should sit early on Friday morning, I am almost forced to the conclusion that it ·is desired that the hours of Parliament should be so regulated that men having any interest except in politics should be debarred from coming into this House. I am inclined to the opinion that thPrf' is a desire to limit +he persons who may be able to come to this IIouse in i'uc:h a wuy a.s to strc'ngthcn a certain party in the State. It is what might be termed >'ome eYid•_'nco at h<J.st of the adoption d

Additional Sittin,q Da;y. [2 .J tTNE.] Additional SiUing Da,y. 231

arwther plank of the Labour platform. I should like to be here to-morrow if the Hou;p sits, but unfortunately I have entered into an engagernent, not knowing that the House was likely to sit, and I shall not be able to be present. '' hy we are asked to sit to-morrow I cannot understand. Last week we had Vic­toria Dny, and, though the Premier desired to sit on that day, the House was not inclined to sit on a day which was being observed as a public holiday. It was sugQ·ested that we should sit on the Friday, but the hon. gentle­man who leads the Government omitted a ,;light formality which he, of all other members· of tho House, ought to have understood-that was, to give notice of the motion.

The SPEAKER: Order, ord0r! ::\Ir. ::\IACARTNEY: I do not know that I

am very n1uch out of order in sug·g"esting a reason for the motion to-day. The hon. gentleman did not give 11otice of the motion, and because his suggestion that we should sit on Friday was not immediatelc adopted he come' along to punish hon. members by pro­posing this motion this evening. I think he will hasten debate, smooth the· temper of hou. mernbers, and generally expedite uu~iness, if he ,,-ithdraws the motion.

~ir. LE;-:;ll\'A (C'Itrmont): It ha~ ~aid 1w t.h(~ hm1. met-;11H•r for Bulloo. opllllOlt

on the cunrlnct of Lnsiue- ::> in thi~ f iutt:-'0 i:-­c.'ener~lly accepted ,, it bout cavil, there are at least fourteeH Jl1f'n1bcr~ oppo~1te who dc·,1re to uir their (1-luqncn(·p on the ~rieva1tee:.:. 1,.·hich lmve occurred duriug thC' recess. If there are four1e-~·n rrlcnibcT..: on that P.ido who "\vi:..;h to ~peak, and they expect }IiHish·r~ to get up in tur!l;-. and n,iYc au account of their achniu­istratioll, and -th('re are seven othE'r Inen1l1 ···r.-; on thi--. :--:iJo \·:ho '•Tant to speak. that n1a.kes twAtlty-eight. so that if threl· rnerrlbers speak bach day...._ and we ~it for tl11·ee days a week that will take us up to a)'out till' 28th pf the> rllOllth. The Prernier i:-:; animated by the very l..:indC'"'t aud purest impuLse..;, hi~ dE "ire lwiug­that tlHhe men11Jer:-; ''"ho arP pm1ti11g to Llll­bo~·orn tlwrn elyr-~ and ~~et. l'id of the infor­rnation they han=• gathl'recl during· thr rece::-s ::~hould have an opportunity of doiu ~· so to­ITIOJ'l'O\Y and the next tv~;-o or thrN' :-:itting rlavs. 'There i:-: nl0nt-,. of tiP1E' to YC'ntilate L;r~Pvauces ~}efor0 RuPpl.v i~ p;l'autPcl. ThP latC' (;ovennllC'llt Il12YP1' callt r1 thP I-iolt..::;e to­gethc•r until late in July. vV c have met in : !av this that 0 shall nrohthly it a C{~l!lplc , loiE er than in ~all nrdi11ary :-:c-s~ion. thP dP:-:irP of thP PrPPliC'r to

real busi.lH'·:.:-: of: t]K• ;-:p. ;ion a..; \Ye dflsiro to get to wade

to nw that the attitude t1.k0n ·~·m·"""·' on the othC>r sidP in cmmcction

rnattPr to ::::ome Pxtent savourt-~ of v. The l1m1. m0n1bcr for ::\Iaralloa indiL!'lla11t at. \Yhat he said IYas an

attf'ntpt 011 th0 part. of tll0 CioYPrnrn{~nt to coerce hnn. men1ber~ iuto sitting- to-morrow. I should have preferred to '"f' thE\ Premi•.\r make the Frida:v ~itt.lng a permanent fixture' for the .session. If we ~it four days a week. I b<>lieve we should be ablo to 0et awav about lhC' end of :;\Jov0mber. aftct hav-­in:; pa"ed much useful legislation instead oi: baYing 50 ppr cent. of the- Bill;;; ou the sheet sacrificed and thrown into the waste-paper basket. at great loss of time and money. I believe the Premier is inspired Lv an anxious and sir:.cere desire to have piaced on the statute-book of the country le" islation contained in the Speech, and with that very objPct he called Parliament to­gPther, and vvith that object de~ircs also that we should sit on Friday. If that does not rnean ~dncerity a·Hd an honest desire on his

part to clo business, I do not know what other 1ncaning you can give it. I am also anx1ous to ~c(~ business gone on with. I want to §!et away to my district very early bcf~re Chnst­mus: but if speeche·•1 of three hours duratiOn. uch as that delivered last night by the enter-

1 ailling 1nen1ber for ::.\lackay, continue to be ddiYPrccl. it will be impossible to get away ntP.ch bt~fon' Christrnas. If WL' sit here f1·on1

:311 to half-past 10 on Tuesday, \Yeclnesclay. , l!(i Thur..;da.y. lwlf of whieh is dovoiyd to r::.rivatc· IlH.'Dlben~· LnsitlCSS. and deliver 111 the (·~_:ul'~c· of that tirnc fiye speeches a wc~=-k~-with

men1bers---\>vc shall be into July we get on with auy actual work at all.

The- position tak:Pn ur 1,Yith rPgard to the ~~~11si':lc motion uf the Pre1nicr bv the hon. nn'Jnlwr for B'_tllnu, the hem. rn~en1bcr for ).:(.l,l'f!llOU. and th<• hon. ll1E'ITI1JC'l' for rf.loowong ]s H l'("Yf'latiou. Ulld f think a rcn_~lation to the C:.('.nntrY. Thrv ~H'e eYidctttlv not desirous of n<.t:':'-iin.g. h'gi~-lation as much a's thry p~t'tcnd ~o

~o·w, lhe bu;;iucss IlH:'ll who g1ve t.ht-'H' ro lt g·i~lation cmnP hen• weary at half­

in'-· thP aftor:!loon. IotnH(e~ ~ into the and. like the hon. member for

.a.v, (1C'liYPr a three-bout,/ RpPech with no rt i .. ·n.l ('llrl in viov~' ;)la t.hf' rest of their

i:1 thP billial'rl-J·oom: and us0 it as a social aud thcu go awav about 10 o'clock.

I ay that otu.;·l~t to l1e ~stopped, and if the Pren1ier i. a practic<.l lnu:;ine~_,s mau, and iL~Puds tn do rhc ·work of the country-e\-on 1l1ong·h it will jar on tro minds of some of the 1nsiness men-hP will have th0 heart:; support nf me:-.lbttr~ sitting l:eh1nd him anrl of a large mu:IhcT of ~lC'Of;lP in the eountrv outside.

Dr. GARDE (Jlaryborough): 0

Personally, I r1o not n1inrl ,;;;itting to~ni01Tow. hut we obj0ci to br-ing· coerced. \Vc arc under the inlprcs­sion that thf' m11zzle is wantNl to be forced us t.he \vav it i~ on the othe.r side, and it rather Parfv in the f:e~sion t.o comrr1ence it. \VO cannot. ha\P fref"dom of speech on ~.'tddtf'ss in Reply. I think it may be too to get. it whPn we come to the Estimates. 1-\ .QTeat n1unber of que~tious haYC' f,e-en asked, and the ba.cl administration of the Government has been criticised. I am quite unlike th0 hem. n1en1ber for \Varrego. who cannot make hi;;;; rnind as to t.he prc~Pnt Government; have nJadP up my n1ind about the1n. _A n1ore wishv-\\'ashv G-overnrnPnt I never hPard of. It has nron;iscd to do so much. and has clone e<o little:. The Tteasurer, who promi"'d to save :S:Jilll.Oii!l, ha,; sawd onlv £30,000·~-he has been dispensing with unfo1~tunate civil servants. f;\lr. LESINA: That is not th" motlon.l That ie< not the motion. but we would like to see our questions answered before 've rro on with any further bu . .;;:inf':::;:-before \Ye get the ~,ag, put on.

The SPK\KER: Order 1

Dr. GARDE: There is verv little ehance of putting it on this side at t'his stage of the ~ession. This is tb(~ (~arlie·,,t se .sion we have had for many yean ancl yet thee want. to try and pmh on work whethPr wo wish it or not. I think it i, a bad precedent. It would have beAn better if the Prerninr had gmw on in tlw eve-n tenor of hi~ Wi1V, and wo should have got to the actual business perhaps quicker. I trust the PremiN will see his way to with­clrac-: the motion, as a good number of mem­bers here have made appointments for to­morrow, and will find it inconvenient to come.

::\fr. C \~VPBELT C'ilor:ton): I also wa11t to cnte1' my pro1-0··J n:.;·ajnst the rnotion. I do so 011 the ~round that thP Pre1niPr has l1e0n dis­cou!'tcon:-, t.o the 1 rouse, inasmuch as no nctico Vi'as r.:in--'n of his intention to propose this motion,' aPd a lot of memlwrs on this side" haYe 1nade ~nga~ements for to-morro\~.'. I

232 Additional Sz:tting Da,y. [ASSEi,fBLY.] Add1·ess in Repl,y.

hase lYlUdl' a11 cg_Lgen1ent to go to Ipswich in t:UlJIH:>ctioH 1vith ,-;orne coal-n1iu.e inspectim1s \vith :-;oniP gpnt1crnen vdw are- spending a ~.ond deal of 1110IH'Y in C:OlllH:'ction '''ith tl1at. indu•',iTy, and I thought it my duty to accept that inyitation; but if the IIouse ~its to­n,onov· I shall have to break the engagement. If ,ve had known of thi, three or fom': days ago. Wf' would haye been sa>:erl fron! an a'vkvvard sih1ation. It io quite ri,-ht that the Premier :-~Lnuld haYO charge of the conduct of bu::~ine:;s. hut lt is most unfair to spring a motion of this kind Oil the Hous" on the spur of the moment. ,., .• j,p TREASVRi':R: You had notice two days ago.J '[The PRE::\IIER: The llotice required by the .':)~A,nding Orders was given.] No one in their "'Cll..-es \Youlcl ba ve expected that the House \-Y:·~ .('·oing to ··it 011 Frida~v this '''ee.k. and the

r·tJC.e in the· ra~i- should have been a guidf' the Cove-rnrnont on thi" occasion. In thi:'i

cJ.:.c- tlw :Standing OrdPr~ act harshly. allrl. if the PrP1ni<:.•r cunsnlted hi:-; own best interf':-,t:-: i,, regard to the conduct of bu:-"illes:--. he wunlci. list-PH to the respectful reque:-;ts of tll(-' numhor of 111ember~ on thi:'i sifle.

.!.lr. STORY (Balonnc): In asking the House to sit to-morrow. it sPems to mP that the Prt>1nic-r is treating this House with a large amount of (lisc•)nrt< .y. He savs, in effect. "A lot of you are going t'o speak. \V ell, I will give you time to speak," as if the speeches to be de!i re red were of no in1portance whatever. Thr main thing is to get rid of them and finish ~he• Arlch·ess in Reply, and then the House c:ao proceed \vith vvhat the hon. gentleman cct!~idet·s P';oro in1portant business. Kow. I de not know that. then~ is anything of rnoro in1porta11cP ·which can come before the House than criticism of the Gon~rnment policy; and. whet! tho Prr-1nier gi\ es us another day 1 he dees not give it for the purpose of enabliug thu I-Iou -..e to hear the L'pinlons of men1bers on t,hi, "ide aud po" <ibly of mt>mber:< on the otlwr sid0: but berau,,e he desires to get rid of what hL' considers a nul ·"a nee to a certain extent. I ''Cl') much object to that. \Ye know that a large number of hon, members will not be pre­sent to-rnorrov,. because thev ha Ye rnadc other arrongcments, ar1d it ,,·ill riot be pl<lasant to be here knov\'ing that V\'C arc brought here just t > get rid of us, as it wme, and get rid of a C•.'rtain amount of talk. I suppose it is natural cP.ough for the Government to be wc·ary of criticis1n. Thcv have, not answered so::nc most jmportant chai'ges which have been made against them, and information has been sought ro which no reply has been given; and I take it. from the Premier',- action. that, if the deLate is finished to-n1orruvv. he Inean:; it to fittish with absolute silence on the other side. vV c are to say what we have to say, and then h0 rlonc with. \Yell, that is not the wav the Oppr"ition should be treated. The fact of corning here to-rnorrow \Yould not trouble me a bit if we were coming to a full House and a properly comlurt0d debate. but I feel that the wish of the Premier is to get rid of us as quickly as possible.

~-ir. PJ;CNKETT (A/h, l't): I think hon. nwmlwrs on the other side arc treating the hon. rrwrnb0r for VYarr0go with yery great dis­cnurt,e y. vYe kllow that the hon. nwmber has he •n waiting for a long ti1ne to rnakc a speech. 0JH' thing that steikes n1c as very peculiar is the numlwr of hon. members who have spoken "ll the othPr side. They say they are wronged

hctn'i asked to sit on Friday. but th01· COL"idcr the convPniencP of me1nbers

"\vhn con1P h,.....re to c1o businPss anrl got back to iherr hrm>r•,. Tlw only objection I have to r.he motion is !hat thP Prc mier is not asking .us to sit eYcry Frjday. Hon. n1embcrs on

the othc;· side sav that members on this side are gagged. The.re is no question of gagging about it, as hon. members will have another day to talk. I do not think hon. members on this side are willing to apply the "gag" to any hon. n'omber, and I hope there will be no necessity for using it at any time in the future. I hope the Premier will stick to what he said. lt seems to me that, no matter what he or his pnrty bring in, it is found fault with. I sup­pose that is fair on the part of an Opposition. but let us trv to treat ono another fairly all round. ·

Question put and passed.

ADDRESS IJ'\ REPLY. RESUMI'~'ION OF DRBATE.

Mr. P .. J. LEAHY (Warrcuo): The House has \vitne~sed an extraordinary spectacle since it opened this :;ession. \Ve have had temperate and very efl:eoti ve criticimr from this side of the House, and there has been no "erions attempt on the other side to answer that criticism. 1 here has been a con,.,piracy of silence ; either that or they are not able to offer any adequate defence . Ministers seem t,J desire to allow the question to go by default. They are conscious of their , political guilt. They are in the positi<'n of a naughty little boy who has rebelled against the P"rent a! authority, who knows he deserves a castiga,tion, and wants to creep off to bed unob* serned. I say it is most discourteous tu tbe House and to the country that the strong and searr·hing criticisms from this side should not have been answered on the other side. Ex-Ministers have got up and nfferPd daxnaging critici~nlH against the Government, and there has been no reply. I submit that this fact, of itself, con­Rt.itutes an indictment agaiuHt the Government. \V bat is the object of an Addreos in Reply? I take it that there are two main objects--one, to criticise the aetinnR of the GovPrnu:H~nt during the recess; the other, to enable members to express their oplnionr: on the various rnntters mentiuned in the Governor's 1:'\p< ech. I will btke those objects in their due order. It may be ne cess <ry, before l deal with the actions of the <lovenunf'nt during the rece~':>, to go back a little bit to some things that occurred prior to the formation of the new Government. :For son1e yf'ars there W3-" n party that. lived upon tloe real or imaginary miHdeeds of the so·cal!ed continnous Government. Year after year the public were told all manner of 8\'il thi11gs about that Government-some, no doubi', true, but the great m:1jority false. By constant re(Jctition a eonsirlerable portion of the country no rloubt came to the view that a charge was nesira hle. It does not by :ctny me ,ns follow that, bee mse the public thought a change was de -irahle, the men who occupied the Treasury hPnches at thnt time were in any way to blame. Th<• law of the world is change, ::tnd the public would h:we got rid of a Govern­ment of angels if they h,d sat on the Tnc1sury bench for thirt<E'n years. The new Governmf'nt had previously man<" great pr,.mi'':'· They t?ld us that if they had the opportutlltv of dealmg witb the finances of tlw country they would rnake revenue and expenditnre 1neet. I remember on one occasinn-I mig-ht ahnost call it an historic occasion-the prP,ent Treasurer told the House, and he rPp:··nted it tnon~ than once, that if he were on the Treasury bench h•· could save£.~00,000 {_!er .J.nnum. That was to bP a permanent saYing in the expenses nf the Stc.te, It i" supposed that that hrm. gen1leman is one of the strongest members of the <'ahin< t. Some pH>ple say be is the real Premier, but I wi,] not go as far as that. At any m e, "hatever ddects he may have, he has a certain amount of strength and force,

Address in Reply. [2 JuNE.] Addn1s ·m Repl_y. 233

although very often it is misclirected. I take it he has had plenty of opportunities of showing the Honse aud the country if it is possible to do what he s:<id he would do. · The whole of the boasted economy of the Government up to the end of June rloes not amount t·• more than £10,000 or £12,000. [An honourable member: Nouseuse !] It is not nonsense. I repeat that the amount of economy made by the present Government up to t.he end of .Tune-I am not referring to the total an1()nnt per annum- does not exceed £1:J,000. [:Vlr. lkNSI"ORD: We are £100,000 better off this year than last.] The hon. member ex hi hits his lamentable lack of knowledge of the position. Why is the p"sition £100,000 better? It is owing to the action of the late Govt·rnment that the position i.sso much better tn-day. The late Government last year cnt Clown th6ir ~EstimateR tn a much lower amonnt than the pre.vious year -by at least £100,000. The only real saving that this Government has been able to effect has been through the dismissal of civil serv ·nts and the reduction of certain allowa,ces. \V e know that at the eml of ,June the deficit will not be as large as it was last ,June. The smaller deficit this year is owing to two facts : one, that the Labour party has swallowed one ,,[the planks of its pl«tform with regard to the sale of land­£2G,OOO was secured from this source last week in cash in one transaction ; the ot.her is, that during the continuance of the drought the late Government t.re•tted selectors and pastoral lessees with the utmost liberality, and the rents then due :1re now coming into the Treasury. How­eVt'r, owing to the bon. n1en1ber's interjection, I am getting ahec1cl of my subject. I was speaking ahout the pronrised saving· of £500,000 a year. I venture to affirnt that no Treasurer, however able, can effect a saving of £500,000, or even of £250,000, in the expenses of the S ate. The thing is absolutely impossible. [:VIr. DuxsFORD: There has more than that been saverl ;;ince he made the statemtnt.J I will tell the hon. mem­ber more about that than he wishe" to hear. Now, the estimated expenditure for the current year iSJ, in rounJ nurnhers, something like

£3,700,000. There are cert:.in por­[1'30 p.m.] tiuns ol the expenditure which it is

impossible to cut down. For in­stance, we ca11not reduce the interest on t.he public deht, which comec to £1,600,000. \Ve are not likely to be able to reduce railway expenditure, or that portion of it which is paid out of revenue for lllaintenance, etc., which amounts to £1,000,000. The amount of money expended out of revenue in connection with e lncation and charities comes to, roughly, £400,000. There are the schPdnle salarie~, etc., vvhich corne to about £100,000, and if you add up the whole ·•f these items you will find they come to £3,100,000, which, deducted from the total expenditure of £:l,700,000, only leaves £600,000 for the whole of the civil sen·ice and all the other ex· J)Pll liture of the Government. Conseqnently, rf t.ht· hem. gentleman wanted to save £.500,000 he would practically have to do away with the civil service and other expenditure. ''rherefore, I say it was utterly impos,ible, and I c~tnnot understand any ruan posses:::ing an elementary knowledge of figures having the temerity tt' make a statement nf that ki11d. The proof that he was unable to dn it is that he has tried and has fctilerl. Coming back to the amount of ecnnomy exercised by the present Government, this is the position. I n1ust say, in pHssing, that I have no desire to state anything that is not bir or put the pr•sitiou unfairly. Any man who makes a statement which is not true darnages his own case. In any .;;ase, even if I did not think it bad policy to make a statement of that kind I would not .do it because 1 believe in sticking to the truth.

Now, the first saving· amounted to some­thing like £1:3,000. It is true that the figureR published were sornewhat larger than that, hut they included certain things which h"d been paid out of the loan mone~·, and which in reality were not sa1·ings at all. :B'or instance, if I were contemplating the building uf a house to co<t £1,000, and if I later on decided I would not build it, wnuld anyone say that that we.s a saving? Xow, a portion of the amount whrch was suppo•·ed to rmve been saved by the Trea­surer comes exactly uncler that category. It was expenditure which u'ually had been charged to loan, but on this occasion he did not spend it, and he claims credit for that as an economy. Did you ever hear tbe like? Claiming credit on revenue account for something which would pro­perly have been charged to loan ! In the second lot of savings which were recently recommended by the Pnblic Service Board of Inquiry, the amount came to about £1:3,000 or £14,000. [Mr GRANT: £20,000.1 If we are to believe the papers, the amount did not exceed £14,000. That has been stated by the Cou,·ier, the Telegraph and the 111 ail, and no one has yet contrad rcted it. It may be that the hon. member for Rockhamp­ton kl1ows a grf,,tt deal more than all these three papers combined, but I have never yet seen my statement dieput.ed. If, then, you add these fig-ures together, they come to, roughly, £26,000. Then there have been a few economies made in connection with travelling expenses, which amount to £1,000 or £2,000. It is perfectly clear, therefore, that the tot«! economies effected on revenue account do not exceed £30,000, and, a" I have already pointed out., we will not get the benefit of the whole of that economy this year, because a considerable nnml er of the Pconoruies will only take pffect fronr the 1r;t July, It is perfectly clear, therefore, that what­ever the financial position at the end of the year may he, the present Government will have had very little to do with it. If the deficit is reduced matnially it will not be owing to the reduced expPnditure of the present Government, because, as I have shown, their ecownnies have atnounted afLer all to very little indeed. The good sea!'ons ancl the larger volume of trade, together with the sales of land, will explain most of the improvement that has taken place in our finances. I inter,d, however, to elaborate this matter later on, [Mr. GRAxT: Later on'!] Yes. \Y1 en I am dealing with a matter of this kind I intend to 'ay exactly all I wish to say, and no amount of disple;~stue exhibited on the Govern­ment side will have the slightest effect upon me. If anything, it may have the effect of inducing me to cl)ntinue my ~~hser:rations1 a;nd make n1y speech rather longer than rt othenvr.•e would be. If, th!-'refqre, hon. rnernh:~rs desire me to shorten my s~eech, they should behave themselves pro­perly. 'Ve hear a great deal of the ac· ion of the Treasurer in connection with the m•rney due by local authorities. This gentleman has a very fair amount of ability. But he has been lauded np to the skies as a hea\'en-born financier. :Mysterious little paragraphs have appectred in t.he papere from time to time, and if you believe half the things you seA in print about the Treasurer he should long ago have been trans­lated to a higher sphere and be wearing a halo and wings. Now, what does the hnn. gentle­man's aetion amount to, all told? He has condemned the late Government for allowing so much money to remain outstanding. The hon. g~ntlemnn formally demanded that thi" money shoulrl be refunded, and one instance was given in the case of a public body in Rockharnpton in which the hon. gentleman did not even spare his own people, and insistPd upon them meeting their engagements. But what is the fact about the Rockhampton case? That board went to

234 Address in H eply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl,y.

the bank and bono wed money to pay the Tre:t­surer, and next week they got a loan of £10,000 from the Treasnrer and paid off the Lank. That is not a solitary c1"e of its kind. [i\lr. G ltAYr: That is not the case !j That i·; the case. Tt,ey obtained thf' Hllmey from the Treasurer, anll they paid off the bank. But that is niJt. the worst f,-ature. If they had only obte.ined a loan sutliciently ]arg" t" pay off the hank it would not have beeu m bad, but they ac•m•lly got :t

loan frorn the Trect:-JUrt:>r for about thrt'e time.-; the nPCt-s..::ary amount; so tba~. thPV are iu a very much better position th"n if the Trea,nrer had never made any demand upon them >tt all. [:VIr. GRAN1': That is not the t :iSe.J The hem. member will have an opportunity uf :Jiring his elnquence whcm I have done, if he is not chained down. I should like to say here that tlH•re is a very im­portant reason why the late (~,1vernment should have tre ltt~d tite locl=l 1 inll horities with the greatest. cletnency. ]1.,nr a. nurr1ber uf years this country has suff- red from an unprece­dented drought-the nw•;;t t-evere in thP recol­lection of }tny rnan~and if tbe Govcrnrnent h~<d insisted on rtll the local authorities meet­ing every penny of their obligations, it would have inflicted a very great hardship upon them. I do not think that by tbe clemeney they showed they lost et single ponnd. I d() not wish to be nndPr ,to()d a::; condew11ing the Trea­surer for callillg in thi" money. l'robctbly he WRS qnite right in doin~! it·; hn•; I waut to show that the conditions are altogether alter> d. Th" present Trea,urer called thie up in good times, antl I liave not the slightest donb' that if it had not been for the political convul-ion which took place last SPpternber the late Treasurer would have been in office, >tnd he would have also caller! it up; hut he woul<l have exercised a little more clemency and judgment than the prP'Ient Trra..,urt--T iH exercif.ing. Now~ I intended to refer to thP civil service cmnmission at Yery great length, but, having heard so much about it, I will not refer to it at the length I had intendt-d 1 b1-oau~e thf~ hon. 1nt>n1ber for Toowong has dealt with it so fully and >o vigorou,ly that there is really very little left for anyone tn snv on the subject on either Hide of the Hmme. Xow, the 1Hinistry told. U:-l at the eli'St-' nf last t-'E'ssion that the only thing· they wanted was to be allowed to go into reces--. It R8emed the c t,rdinal prin­ciple in their lives-the whole sum of their exiH­tence~was the squaring of the fina.nee.s, making revenue and ex penditnre ha1ance; and they :-aid if they were allowed to go into recess it would soon be seen what they could do iu that direction. The TreaRtn·er told ns in a supplernent~ry docu­ment which was dignified by the name of a u ~Financial State1neut," whiCh he deli vt-red a few mo11th, ago, t.hat if there was nothing "tall done there would be a deficit of £Hll,OOO at the end of June; but the Gnvernn1ent were going to do great thing", an I inferentially lead the Honse to believe th"t by their efforts t,bere would not be any deficit at 1 he end of ,June. There were many of us at the time who thought that there ought not to be any deficit at the end of June, because the new Government. was singularly fortunate in coming into office after the d1 ought broke. [Hon. D. H. lJALRY~IPLE: Before it broke.] No, they came into office >tfterit broke, and when things looked rem:nkably well and pr,mieing. As a matter of fact, they came in not immedia­tely after the drought broke, but some eight or nine months after it broke, and this was all the better for them, for it takes "'me time before any benefit can be felt through the bre:>k-up of a drought,, \Ve wPre told th8.t if they had an opportunity of squaring the finances of the country they would do so. They did not tell us they would req nire the assistance of a ci vi] •ervice commission; they were quite content to

do the work themselves. fHon. D. H. DAL­RYMPLE: They h:td to cttll in another doctnr.j Y E'ti, and a much more expensivt~ ont-. The 1\Iirlistry tri,~d the-ir "prentice hancP' at this n·trenchment, and aftPr sou1e paltry and inequi~ table economy they found they would have to appoint a counnission, and they went outsidt> the State to g·t t.wo men to coinpoHe the maj,,rity of that connni~sion. The irl1niRter told nH the other dny that one gentlewan waR C\Jlltlt'eteU with a nnmber of certain con1panles, mtcl the only conclusion to lH~ inferred from that it~ that this gentleman mn .... t be a 10 gninea-r-'ig. :' I belie\'8 that that is the terrn app1ied to In en wh0 me in a Jot of companies and who <lo r1n1 hing else. If he ha:-: b£-'en eng-agr c1 in so many cnm·· paniet-;, he surely cannot be <1 rnan who could give the Go\·ernrr1et1t. prop""r recommendations, t-specially with reg:1rd to th~~ civil ,._prvice here. Then thPy t<tke a gt"Jl' le man whn has b, en in the civil :->ervice here for :,Orrte yeart:-i. I do not know him cmd have no d•"t-ire to Kay anything ag-ain->t hitu, bnt the-y place him over the heads of other c<qJ<::b'E' rrlt'll in rhe civil service who are old enou~h to be hi>< f>tther. ""ow, what conld be expected fr(Jtn a crnnmi~sion of th;:tt kinrl? The Honw NtJcretary t11Jd us that tlle civjl !'.P.l'Vice <Ire IlO\V purfectl.\ )-;;lt.i.sfied-th<lt thingH nrl;:' gj·ing on smo~~thly, A..nd d!ctt they hles~ t.he (;uvernn1ent and the comrnis;;;.ion for putting tht-m on a sound basis. Xo~v, wlth regard to thd.t, tl1P18 i...., a liLtle periodical ctdled '• Tile Publ1c Sr>rvice Review,': an issue of which c,,me ou~ yesterday f lr the rnontb of .June, a.nd looking ovHr that this i:; what I read-

'rhe service has been on tip-toe of expectation to know what the rPsu!t of thi:::;so-rallert.~earclnng-inqn,ry would be. 1\' ow it k:to\VK, aud it cannot conceal the hrnad grin that o'er~p!·earls its eonntenance when it is told that t.he service 1s now re-graded and r,-~-classified. Xo doubt the :J.Iinh,ters who are- exerebi .g tlle fnnetions of the Public Sen ice Bmtrcl fee! satisfied tlwt even-lmnded jn-.:tice has bec~n JuPted out Hllround: they bel· 'i-'t.: that they have done well in the intel'E ~ts or the serv1ce and the eoulltr1, bnt if they wonld de~cencl from thP board­romn and go (l.oWll into the ~erviec, \Vhlk right through the rank and file and ~ee aud lPa n tor thcwsclves what lnts lJeen tlone antl what left undone ill the way of cla.~t'iii('ation, retrenehrnent. and p!omotion they would )!;O baek to their boardroom and ex:rJaim, "And we thought that thi~ wol'k had been well done!" \V ell done~ To ensure its being well done, they would reqttire to spend hours in:;tead of minntet.'. searclling, iu4_niring. anU examining, and then some measure of !'lH:ccs~ might he obtained. ft. took three yun·s to re-clas::.it'y the pnblie f'Cl'Vic·e in Yictoria In Qneens­land it took a:; m:-tny month:s 'fhe eompari,..on is obvions. The whole re.sult. in so far as Q11eensland is concern eel, bears tbe iJIItHimafurof ha te and itn111atnre judgmeBt. \Ye are ~mclly afmicl that the Puhlic ~ervice Hoar(l has been booc1wil1ked into a policy of eec11wmy th<Lt \Yill nltitnHtel~ prove to be a !'Urprhdllg extrava­gttnc ~.for it is at.tonisbilJg. sometime"-. how ext:mv:.tgant a poliey of econorns ean become.

I do not wish to he underRtood as condernning economv. I have ,-tat,~d inside and ontside this House that there i- no reascn why a man in the public service 'hould gP.t more than a man out­side for doing similar work; neither is there any reason \l'hy men in the pu I >lie service should get les-; than ls pa.id tn rnen outside for sirnilar v. ork. I do not believe in a pampered class; but, who­evt·r 1 he.sf' men are, they Rhould get fair treat~ ment and justiee, and I empl1atically assert that it was impossible for that commission to lmve visit,ed all the departments and thoroughly re-grade them in the time at their command. In facr,, I am inclined to think that instead of re-grading the servic0 they de-graded it. And a very remarkable thing is this: Af er the conm;ission did their work­which I say was very imperfectly and very injudicionHly done.,-they were asked to recom­mf'nd a civil service c01nmi~sioner. \Ve were· told a good deal a few nights ago about the

Address in Repl,y. [2 JUNE.] Add1·ess in Reply.

recomme.ndation which a certain gentleman made. It was made in such a peculiar way that only one man could be appointed to the [)()sition, and the man who rnade the rec.nnrnenda,tion was the m~n who was appointed~he re<>ily appointed hirnself. And i8 it a reasonable thing to sUpiJOse for one rnon1ent tbat a rnan whmm whoie · tirne has been spent in the Audit Department pos­se::::;sed the necess.try knowledge and experi­ence to qna.lify hinl for thif;; po~ition? If the G•Jvernrnent wanted a coinpetent ruan, there ;1,re plent.v in the service vvtw a.re more fitted f,r the position than Mr. Br. mum, and )Jl"ntv ,f men who h >Vc' been retrenclied~ 3.Ir. Francis, for inst;:nCt', \vho is a very old ctrnd ab},_~ poiice rnctgistrate. He ba,..- been all \)Vt::Jr

Queen8land, and he has a gr .... at know·ledge of otfice work. I rn, self know a number of rnen who are betcer ti tted for the pc"ition than l\1r. Brennan. I do not \i<·nnt to rnakP btatements in this Ho11se which may not be tnw

1 and if I an1

wr;mg I :<ball b" glad to be correctr d ; but there are pc.>ple who think that Lhe Trt tsurer iR like the celebrated Henniker Ht•aton. wiJO was in the habit l ,f mrt_plnyir~g ghustN, and they imllgine that :Jir. Brennan is the gh(J'-lt \Vho .sup~ }:Jlied Lhe figures vvhich the Treasut?r has on n1any occa,:;;ions used in hi~ speeches. [:Yir. \~IUl'H : There j, no truth in that.j I am very glad to hear the hon. member interject that there Io no truth in the statement. If the stat,,~ment is not ttue, I am f1articularly pleased to hear it ; but it has been made, and it is just as well that I should refer to it. At any rate, it is very .singular that this yqung and inexperienced 1nan Rhoulrl have such a hi~h and rernuner.Ltive fJll~ition given to hin1 when there are ROmany older and more experienced tnen available in the service. LeaYing that jnrt of the subject, I ask what pos,;ihle juscitic·Hion there w.1s fot the Governrnent givir g lncrea~e-.:; to civit E-Jel'\'ants at a tin1e when 1nany mE>n have had to be r~trenched and thrown upon the c"ld world, and the Go· vernment h:cve as much as they <an do to find work for t.lw unemployed ? ·Take, for in­tance, the £2,000 increases recommended by the comrni:-)tiinn. Could not thn~e ofiict>rs who~e salari'' are tu be increased very well afford to wait a year or two for those increa--eH '? Could not a mnn receiving £500 or £000 a year do verv well for a year or two without that extra £100? This £2,000 which goes in increa.ses would have enttbled t.he Govennnent to keep tv. enty men at £100 per annum f',tch, and would that not be better than giving increase". to those n1en who are alreafb· iu the receipt nf large oabries? [:\Ir. GR."''T: The late Government did exa0tly the same thing.] The late Government did n•Jthing of the kiiHI. [~fr. GIUN~': Yes, they did.] [The SPEAKER: Order, order !] I am particnlarlv plc·ased to hear these m' erjections. I never feel that I have hit hard until there i<arel<onnJl. 'l'hela·e Government may have done something of the kind in one or twn cases, and for st•ecial reason'J; but they did not do it on the s'mte scale as thP presem Go­vernment have dune it. The next item on my programme is Dr. :iYhxwelL I believe he is a gentleman of the very highest attainments. [:Yir. WHITE: Question!] Well, I am told that he is, and I am willing t11 admit it. I have met Dr. ::Yiaxwell; he has always impressed n1e as heing a gt"ntlernan of very considerable attainments, a11d 1 believe he was thoroughly qualified for the pos1tion for which he was engaged by the late Government. But, as the hon. member for lYbckay told us last night, the serious objection to the action of the Govern­ment in connection with the ap)Jointment of Dr. lVlaxwell is that two years before his time is up, and Without any necessity for it, his salary is con­tinued for another three years at the rate of

£3,000 a year. \Vhat may happen before that time we do not know. It may happen that owing to the action of the l''ederal Parliament the sugar indusLry will burst up in two ysars frow tbe Jll'e~ent tirne~, and we nmy not. require Dr. l\laxwell at all. Yut thi,; (iovernmeut, whieh prof8sses t11 ne an t-conornical (}overn~ tnent-it is only a. pcoff•~-sion-doe...; a thing which) if it hc-1d beeu done by the ]ate Guvernruent, would hL \7e 1:J. en derwunc d bv ev~ry n1ember sitt.ing on the hendH·-.; opp, ~~i'Le. Perhaps it rnay b~ refr~.:_.,bing 1f I gave a.n Ppinion which is not 1uv own in CflllUection ~.~vith thL matter. A.n att..rniJt ba:s been rnade by mentben; on the ("i-o~ veriiTnent Slde of th8 Hou,;e to defend this appointnlfmt. The 'f\·easun"r, 1\1r. Kid..,ton) ~pectking at l'vir. ivlc.Donnell'~>i n1eeting in the ·valley, attPn1pted to defend it. Now I purpose readit1g a brief extract on the -;nbjfct frmn the Ci-ovt•riHnent org.~n, 'The }Vurkwr. [Hon. D. H. _DALl::rL\IPLE: I thoug-ht T'lath was the Govern­tuent orga.n.l I nrn-110t Ct-:rta.in whether :11ruth or The IVo1'kcr is tht~ Goverornent (•rgan. rrhi8

1 iti what tbe paper .... .tys-How about Dr. }Iaxwell. who is boss of the suzar~

mills !tt £:3,0(10 ~L ycm· ~ Tlw apjlOintment was ouly madt~ the other day, and £'l,lh!tl ~r~euu 11 preLty stiff fig-m·•~ in lhesc parlons times of all-round_ retrenchment and \\' '.nt-of.work. Wliat a wowler he rua~c be if t.lle Jlriee is not tno hi~l1, ancllH' is really wort\1 as 1lllH'l1 to the Statt~ as four .:\linbters of the Crown~ Or as much, RaY, as Pl'C!ltiet• Jlorgan, 'l'reasltrPl' Ki(bton. Home

! Se.crp;tary .\.irey, w1 t.lt the \Ylwle llalll throwu in as makeweight :

I am not sure that he is not worth as n1nch a.s the lot, but that is not saying very Inuch-

Jlr. KJd;.;ton, at Frank ,:\Tt·Donnell'.s Yalley meeting, jnstilied the bigh s.-tlary paid to Dr. Max·.>ell on tlle ground tlmt tlte State had a very large surn-£000.000-

1 iuvt-- teLl in the CCtJtral t;ugar-miHs. 'l'lle argument ba~iug- :-alary ou tlle H.JUOUl1t of eapital inv(·~ted is utterly f.tllacious, cmct i~ not. applied. an~·,vherP in the pnhlic seeviee. It just comes t.o this-either ::\faxwell Is one of the :.rreatest marvels of tile age. or ..J-iorgau. Killstm1, and 'Airey are arrant clnffers that ::\Ia.-xwell should b:' worth as much as the lot of thmu put together.

\Vas there ever such a fallaciou8 arguruent as that put f<>rward by the Treasurer? If there is anything at all in that argument, what salary ought we to be payi11g thE Rail·-\·ay Cornmis~ sinner? The hon. member for :\lackay said last night that in the smne proportion we ought to pay the Raihv_.y Commi,siuner .£20,000 a year. But the hon. member was wrung by £100,000.

1 If we take ea pi tal as a ha~is, we ought. to be paying the Railway Cumrni <sinner £120,000, bee'""" the arnount of · nwney inveHted iu tbe sugJ,r~Jnilb is only .£iJOO,OOO "r £(;00,000, wherea' the. amonnt invc·sted in railways is over £20,000,000, or fo,·ty time:) at> n1nch n:orwy as is invested in tbe sugar­IllilJ.::~. r:I.'herefore, if there i .... anythingi11 the argu-

1 nwnt of thei.Jresidiuggeniuson the bench oppo~ite we ought to be P"-} ing Mr. Tballrm £120,000.

: [Hon. D. H. DAl>RDfPLE: \Ye are swe-ating ' .\Ir. Thallon.] Ye,, we are sweating him if that argumen~ is correct, and the sooner \Ve give hirn a salary sornewhat cunnnensurate with the \'ast amount of money invested in railways the better it will be in the interest of justice and fair play. 'I'he argu1nent i~, of course, ab.-;urd. Referet1ce has been 1nade in this debate to the ~ystezn of repurchasing land by the Government.

i There is one eRtate, the Glengallan ~~~tate, which has been repuichasecllately. Any person wbo has any knowledge of the agricultural dis­tricts, and of t be way the price of produce has been going 1lown during the last twelve month", knows perfec'ly well th>tt agricultural land has bteu worth }p.;;s during the last slx months than it was twelve months ago. Jt w>ts stared in the Press at the time, and was not contradicted, so I presume it is correct, that the Glengallan Estate was offered to the late Government at £4 an acre-·

236 Address in Rep1,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Add;·ess in Reply.

at any rate, at the same price that the present Go­nrnment JJaid for it. If the present Govern­ment simply gave the same price as that at which it was offered to the late Governmer•t, probably I should not refer to the matter at all, but the late Government did not buy the '"tate, and in doing so they showed their wisdom. All estates bought by the la•e Government were paid for by debentures bearing 3~ per cent. interest, and the Glengallan Estate was offered to them on the same terms. This is the important point to which I wish to direct the attention of the House. '.rhese 3~ per cent. delwntures were worth £95 on the London market. I do not think they are any higher now ; and instead of the present Government paying for the land by debentures they paid cash, and lost £5 c.>sh on every £100 of the purchase money. That is a fact which requires expbmation. I do not know anything more damaging ag"inst the Govern­ment than a statement of that kind. Then there is another matter in connection with this busi­ness. The Government have allowed the late owner of the property to retain 3,000 acres of the best land. I wish to be perfect] v fair in the matter. It may be that in the Lands Office there is something showing that the late Govern­ment were prepared to make a similar reserva­tion. I do not know whether that is so or not, but at any rate I think it is the duty of the Government to give us the facts of the matter. I may say, further, that although on the whole

this system was worked fairly well, [IJ p.m.] it ought to be gon~ on with very

carefully indeed. In speaking la't SPR8ion~ before the new Government can1e into office, I expressed a sim1lar opinion. Any person who watch<>s the markets must know that produce has been coming down for the last twehe months. \Ve know that maize which was worth, three or four years ago, 3s. or 4s. a bushel i• only worth about ls. 2d. a bnshel now ; lucernP, which was ·worth £6 a ton, is now worth only fil-I b •ught it at 17s. fkl. Butter, which was worth lO~d. to lld. a I h., is to-day only worth 7d. or Sd. a lb. The dairying industry is re­ceiving a good deal of attention lately, and, as there ~houlrl be no misconception about it, let me say that this fall in price is a great rleal more than appears on the snrface. If butter is down to Hd. it has only gone dnwn 33 per cent., but it. bt~s really gone down more than that, becau.<e well-informed people tell me that it is impossible fur a farmer to produce at a lower price th'tn 5rl. the amount nf cream that will yield 1 !b. of butter. It is obvious thl1t if, two or three years ago, the farmer sold h·s butter at lO~d., he made a profit of 5~d. ; and if it is still co~ting the san1e to pr0duce, and t1e only gets 7d. a lb., be is only making a profit of 2d. a lb. Consequently butter brs come down in the re.tio nf 5 to 2; and one rnust con1e to the conclnsion that land for dairy purposes is not worth a' much as it was twelve months ago in this State. That is another reason why the Government ought to proceed very carefully in this matter. At one trme the hon. members opposite urged that no estate shonld be purcha,ed with­out the sanction of Parliament, and I admit that under existing conditions there is some­thing in that con,entinn. I admit, if they were all careful and experienced men in charge of the 'freasnry benches, a provision of that kind would not be neces:.:ary, but if we havB any more purchases of that kind I should be verv much inclined to record my \'Ote in the di-rection advo­cated by h<m, members oppo.;ite some time ago. It ;, quite possible when that occurs those hon. members will have changed their opinions with their sides. \Ve have heard something abont the unemployed. The marvelions thing to me is that we have heard so little about

them; because if the late Government had been in office, the adjournnlPnt of the House would. b:J.ve been moved the first week. The ad­jonrnn1ent was moved on several occa~inns when there was lese need for it, and I think there is a conspiracy arnongst the labour organisa­tions ontside to keep this unemployed question in the background. [:vlr. LESINA: \Vho are the conspirat .. rs ?] The cla" you belong t•J. All over the \Ve.,tern country there are more unemployed than I hrtve known for the last three or fonr ye,trs, They are w'wdering abont, many of thern obtaining food fron1 RPleetors and station­owners as they go along. [Mr. LESIXA: \Vhat about the poll tax?] I will tell you something about the poll tax and the way the present Government me administering the Act. They are carrying it out in a har,her form than the late Government. [:1\fr. RYLAND: They are not carryinE, it out at all.] Tbe.-e disorderly interjections are not going to get rne off the track. I will deal with the poll tax in its proper place. I think we have scriptural authority for the statement that everything should be done "decently and in order,., and though authority of that kind may not appeal to the hon. member for Clermont it a pp~als to me. The efforts of the Government so far with re~ard to the unem­ployed have been puny and ill,directed. \Vh»t have they done? They have employed a nnmber of men cutting prickly pear and clearing scrub. I do not blame them for that, but it i; remark­able that in every instance-there may he one exception-all this work is being done in the electorate'< of members who sit behind the Government. They have not done anything in my electorate, although there 11re tt number of unemployed there. I think they are t»king a wrong method alt•·gether. It is expected that when land is cleared it will be sold, and that the price realised will cover the cost of the work and the unimproved valne of the land. \V hat we want to ascertain is this: If we get imp~rtial e1 idence of the value of the land before clearing was commenced, and what. it sells for after the land has been cleared, we shall know whether we have gained or lost by the transaction, and I venture to "'Y that in every instance we will lose heavily by the trans•ction. If this iand is not turned to some U<eful account, in twelve or eighteen months it will be as bad as e1·er. If it werP offered to selector<, and they were given a e·~rtain amount of uwney in thA ~hape of a bonus. these men would set to work to clear the land 'and cultivate it, and would give work to the unempl<>yed. If that were done, the same amount of employment would be given, ,;nd there would have been a great deal less loss to the S·ate-possibly no loss at all. There is another method-and a very much better one­of dealing with the matter. Gi l'e work to the unemployerl destroying rabbits. vVe have heard a great deal abont tbi' man named Jone•. (Laugh­ter.) I enjoy the arlvantage-if it is an advan­tage-of knowing :1\fr .• Tonh. [:\'fr. lfortsn'H: Did he ask you for a recommendarion 'I] He would not have g"t it, if he had. I met him at Thargomindah and at Cunnamu1la, and I saw him in Brisbane. I thought everybody knew him; and when I heard that a gentlman named ,Tones was appointed, I had not the famtest con­ception tlHt it was the ,Jones WP know--I did not think such a thing was possible. I did not think the Government, wit.h all their faults and all their failings and bachlidings, and with all th~ir ignorance in certain n1atters, would h'l.ve done anything of the kind. It came as a perfect reve­lation and a sh•·ck to me to find that Jones had got that positiOn. I do not int•nd to say more on this subject than I think is absolutely neces­sary. It is no pleasnre to me, nor is it any pleasure to any of the members on this side of

Add1·ess iu Repl;IJ. [2 JGKE.] Address tll Repl,y. 237

the Home, to say anything against the character of any uutn, bnt thit'; aJJpointrnPnt was ~m inde­fensi!11P, so outrageon~, s.o terribly bad, that we shcmld be fabe to the duty we owe to; he coUIJlry if we allowed the a!•Pointment of that man to g<> unchallenged. [Hon. D. H. TlALl\HIPLE: )end fabe to other countries, too.] Yec, \\e ~ould he false to the duty \Ve <~we to other countries as \V ell, A good deal of information has alrea1ly been given to thh; I-lon,-;;e with regard to :JYlr. tTones. l hrt;·e perused the papers which the Premier laid upon the table to-night. At one time I intended to go very fully into them, but I find that, if I were to rlo that, I would probably keep the House until midnight, and I have no desire, for tny own cotnfort • ,r that of the 1-Iou.s:e, to take up such an amount of time as that. But I have here two reports obtained from undoubted somces, and I have not the sl1ghtest doubt that any member of the Gover,.ment could have obtained the information which I was able t" get in half an hour. \Vhile the inform>t­tion is confidential, I han' not the slightest objection to gi;·e the Secretary for Agriculture the source< of my information. One of them, after giving a long ea' aloguf' of misdeeds, winds up in this way: " He was inclined to sport­ing while here, sharp, and alert to score points." Evidently he 'cored a number of points over the Government. " And he requires very careful handling"-which he did not get from the present Go,·ernment. The other winds up, after a somewhat similar catalCJgue of rnis­deeds, but much longer-t,idently the first did not give the whole li,;t: "He i" regarded by the commercial communitv with distrust, and it is the opinion of those who have had dealings with him that he is unprincipled and unworthy of confidenc;e." [A Governm.mt member: \Vbat are you reading from ?J I will give the Secre­tary for Agriculture the original documents, but I h!>.ve no desire to put them into Han8ard. This i,; the point I wish to emph<"ise: That information which I was able to g-et in a few minutes might have been got hy the Gov~rnment. Th. y did not get it. \V by? I can go furr her, '"'d say sorue­thing which I did not intend to ;;ay, bnt I will say it. \Vhen :VIr. J ones came here from Sydney, he told the rwttw,ger of a certain large wholesale boURe in Brisbane- and I wiil give the nan1e of the HIRn::tger alRo to the Secretary for Agriculture, if he wish"s-be told him that he wanted a billet from the G<>vernment, and he -mnst get it; and, when I turned up the papers which the Premier has laid on the table, I am rather inclined to think there ]s smnt>thing in his contention. On almost the first page -this paragraph caught my eye-

After my eall at yonr otnrc ye"ter<la.y, I saw Jlr. ,J amcs Jlau:e, J'L1LR .. wlto had interviewed. ::.\Ir. llcakin in 31elhournc- -

ami so on. The very first introdnction that this n1~tt1 ha~ to the QtH•<>nr;lanrl Govc:rnnH'nt is fnnn a Labour member. [Hon. D. H. DALHD!l'LR: A Labour job <>ltugetiH"r.] Does uot <lmt go a long way to coruplP.te the chain nf ::ronf which has been f<·l'gE-d i>ll this side to the effect that, thi~ n1an ~ot the billet aR a reward for political services·~ fA Governrneu t rnentbP.r: Y un look very indign tnt.J I look very indi~nn.nt becnlU''2 I feel very inrligna11t. I <ttll nqt like hon. lllt'!n­

ber~ oppo~ite who pr:Jft-f'S a thing \Vhid1 t.hev iu nCJt believe. \V hat the hon. men1ber for Ba:r'mne told us about thi,; man wa < perfectly trm' : That when therP was a meeting 1H-ld in Cunnamnlla, some years ago, and when Lhere was a distnrb­ance-the most di8g-r~ceful, T venture to Ray, that has ever occurred m \Y ec;tern (-.lneensland­the extreme Labour men of Cunnamulla, led by this man, refused to give a hearing to the then

Pri;,nlier of the colony. Thi:::; rnan was the rillg­leader. On (•ther occasionR we know he \Va"l a strPTib Labour partb:1n. \Ve know th:it he was prac ically a Lnbonrorganiser, Lhough probably he \\as not paid. \V t:-' know that be diRserninated the fa]sp g=~spel of }B,htmrisrn wherever he went, and now, after man\· yeas of pn' ching this causP, he comes ar11l demands his wages. [Mr. FoR~YTH: And he got lh>·rn.] He got them, and the Gll\'ernment have got a great rle·1l 1nnre than they bargained for in connection with the matrPr, too. It is very cheering to be told tbat there is an imprc,vernent in the country. It is a fwt so perfectly ap­parent that even the dull intelligence of mem­bers of the Goverr<ment has seen it. Do we not all know that there ha' been an improve­ment in the cnuntry? Is it po"sible that we could have five or Hix good frtliR of r,.in in eighteen months without an improvement in the country? Of cour~e there iK a very con:-.idera.ble improvement, and it is owing tl) that improve­ment in the country, and not to any ndruinistra­tion on th~ part of the Government, that we have h~td the improvement that there is in the revenue of the country. The action of the Government has been , a "carcoly appn ciable factor in the improved conditinn of the Trea­sury. I pass oVcl' the Dairy Bill, much as I would like to refer to it, because I find it will take me a c>mple of hours to get done if I exhaust my subjects. I shall only say with regard to the measure that something of the kind ia wanted ; bur. I should recommend the Secretary for Agricul1ure to read the evidence which was recently given in Victoria in connBction with the way in which many of the factories treated the farmers when they brought cream to them. They cheated them wholesale. I should be ;ery sorry to think that anything of that kind was done in Queenslaud, but it is certainly wort,h in­quiring into by the Mmister. I now c"me to deal with a matter which genPrally has the effect of emptying the House. \Vhetber it ha' th"t effect on the present occasion or not, impelled by a senRe of ; ublic duty, I intend to rder to it at smne 1ength. J\lost 'of us, I suppr)se, haYe read the reply which the Premier gave to the hon. rnen1ber for Brisbane :North, }lr. Carneron, in conntc i\Jn with thr request made by the pastoralists. I agree with the hon. member for Leichh<trdt that many, if not >tll, of tho'e reque:-ts could have been granted wit hnut any <hnger of injury or loss to the ~t>tte. The rr:f}Uest ... J aft er all, were very modr:rate. Tht;re \V<M" nothing 1, ery extrnordina.ry about them. There was uothing a.,ked for that wou id re~ult in any lo;-;s to the State. There: \\ere f1nly two or t.hrPe matters 1 hat wf:re really of any gTPat irnpnrtancP. OnP- of them \Ya . ..; th tt the rents should be fixed before tbe notice nf eltcctiun was give.n to come undr~r the ~..\et of HJ02 I run awarr, of c1 •llr~e, that there n1ight be a little difficulty, but I do nnt, think the ditlienltieK are insnrnwuntahle. A_ rfqut\;;;t (,f thit' kind, which wa~ re~arded a.~ VE-'l'Y ilnportaiJt by the pa~toral­isr.s, ~hould have recPived nturt> uon~idH·::ttlon than it did from the Premi·::'r. l-[i~-; nmin argn­rnent for refusing thB rtqnest was thi-:tt in 1H8-± the rGnt,..:; \Vert· not fixed before lE,{seec.·, can1e nr1rl.er the .Aet. ])ut thel'e is no cun1pari--on bt'Lv..·ef-'n tl:e pr····ition in 1.:--:t-:4 and that e'{i:-.tiug now. A .. t that tin1e runs a\ I 11Vf'f tl,uePnRland were lodli:e: i UJlOn as an ;tH':let, and ledse::.·~ did not 2le~lt::ttt a.bout con1ing und~~r the Act becnul::'e thPy kne\v th<lt, if they \vere compel!ed to pay a rent somewhar. higher than the country was \\'ortb, it would pr.y them better to d" it t'1an to f,,rfeit their improvel1H:'nt:-:;. Bnt to-day those runR are no longer looked upon as an as,et. In many cases they are looked upon as a liability, and I

238 Address in Rcpl:if· [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl_y.

am verv much afraid that, if something cannot he clone to enable the rPnts to be fixed before notice of election to come under the Act of 1902 is given, a larger nun1ber of rrwn \Vill not come under the Act at all. The other matter which I consider of imnortance is the request that a man should be ailowod to surrPnder his lease and forfeit the whole of his improvf'­ments. That has been the practice. I bclieYe. in ihi::~ coun trv for many vcar~, and it has been thP praci.icc in Ne,;, 8nnth \Yale's. and J lle1ic:vr it i~ the practicE' !n C'Yery _,A_u~tra­liau State. Then whv rC'fuse to insert a provision to this effect In the l<>ases? ·when the lnattPr \Va;.; brous?ht- Lefore the late Gov,-rnment, a promi:;;~~ wa·1 made, that it would be dealt with, and the pres:mt :\Iirrist"r for Lands promised that he wmild confirm the adion of his predccPssor. I do think that hon. g·entleman would he q·uiltv an act of re-pudi~tion, but vve ought to ha~-e son1e stro11ger re<l·con than has yet been offered why that prornise v,as JJOt redcen1ed. Another nwtter !;-:; the qu(-.:;~-,tion of cornpelling peuple who take up land on ·"ire-netted runs to destrov rahbit.,. The pa~toral 1es~ee has to kPcp his~ fences in order in accordance "\vith the conditions uuclrr which he ~ot hif. extension, hut the insid<' man can come .in and select, and is not hound to do anything- at all with regard to the destruction of rabhits. No person has a greater re;;ard for ReJectors th3,n I have, or is more anxious to treat them fairly, but I submit that we should treat both parties justly. An amendment _in the law in that respect would be very desir­able. I desire. before leayinp: this portion of the subject, to enter my protest against the language u-ed by the hon. member for Barcoo in connection with the squatters. That hon. member does not appear to be able to p-et over his old prejudices. He has got int-o a par­ticular ~roove--cannot carry his eyes beyond his mental horizon. It is just as well that the House and the country should recognise the fact that there is a very large area uf that \Vestern countrv that will not be fit for anything but pastoral occupation. The bulk of the men who have held that country for the last thirh vcars are poorer to-day than when t~1c~v tnol~ i't up, and in the existing condition of things there is a very strong probability that if those mPn are not treated justly-! will not sa:;· generously- large areas of that coun­try will be thrown up, especially as the rabbrt is suriously nwnacing its carrying eapacity. \Y<• have been told a good deal about selectors bv the hon. membor for Leichhardt and others. r" should like to say, whilst I am quite sure that hon. member gave us the exact facts as regards selectors and the Lands Depart­Incnt, that in rnv own experience in the \Varrego <'ll'ctorat~ I do not know of a single instvrw0 in which the Minister has forfeited for not paying rent. In making that statement I Hrn ::'\hying nothing more than any rnan onrrht to <lV under t.he circumstance''. I may, ho~YPYel'. e~pr0ss my n~,grc~t that the motion I ir>~rodncf'd last vcar was not carried. There ,, ould hr:tvc hf'cn i\o occHsion for the comments the ho11. nwll!bcr for L0ichharc!t made; it woLrld have !wen impossible to forfeit. Leav-inu asidn question of forfoiturP, I do not thrnk J-hc - member ovPr-statcd the case dn~ling with the condition of selectors. \V c han' to rc .. egniso tho fact that all over that countrv there are a number of men in occupa­tion Of t>Pl£'ctions '"'ho at present have no .::.;tock, and that their Tents are very mnf'h highov than those the pastoralists are paying. Hon. members will admi~ that I have always endeavoured to clarm farr treatment

for the pastoral lessee, but I will 'ay this: That I have never seen any valid reason why the pastoral lessee should pay £1 or £1 5s. a mile for his couutry, and a selector on the same country should pay twice that amount. It rs sometimes contended that the squatters pay too little. :!ly experience points to a different conclusion. I think he pays full value. for hrs country. If the i\lin!.,ter for La_nds wrll take anv advice from me, rt wrll bo thrs: That rf lH' wi~hes to retain those .<electors in thH \Yestorn country, particularly the poor ccuutry in tho Soutb-west, it \vill 18 ner::essary for h1m to l?t them have thoir land on such terms as · .. ·1!1 enable them to put it to profitahle use. [The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIO LANDS: The rent rs settled by the Land Court, and the rent there have just been reasscsced.] I nm a'Hare that the :\linister has nothing to do with the rents. I a1n speaki11"· in a broad aud general way. The wurce of the trouble was that when the Lands Department threw open thoc•3 selections the rent ''as fixed bv proclamatiOn for the first terrn of the lease irl all cases too hi~h. Then the coinmi.~siouer>, who are mere servants of the Governn1ent, removable at a month's notice, naturally endeavoured to get as much rent as they could for ~he Government. I scarcely know of one sohtary mstance where the3 recommended a reduction. As a n:de, UH?V rd.ommcnded IllCl'eases, nobvlths!and~nf~ tlrat the ori· iual amount was too ln•;h .. I o:1ly lo:O\Y or on(~ place in the South-\\'f'st 111 "hieh tho couclitions are really favoural-le for selection. a11d thn.t i~ aroulld Cunnan1ulla. If T wanted to st~lld any ruember of the Lah?ur nartv al!Ywhcro as a punishmcJJt. for his s1ns, I w~mlcl' seml him to a \Yestern selection. Another trouble the selectors haYe is with re­gard to putting down bores. It is impossible for a man to do that v. ork on a single selectiOn of 10,000 or :!0,000 acres of dry country. lf settlers are to be able to carry stock on th~t couutrv it will be ahsolutely necessary 111

many ~ases to put down bores to supply them "\Yith water. There ouf.(ht to be a small re:serve of -.a v 25 acres and rnonev should be found to pL~t' d~,vn a b~re, by arrftr1geme11t '''ith the ,;electors, who would pay a rent which would cover the interest on the cost of the bore. In doirw work of that kind the unemployed could b; set to work more profitably than thev arc now. I come to another matter, perhaps the most important which Queem­land has to deal with at the present time. I refer to the question of rabbits. It seems to me there is a very inadequate appre­ciation in Brisbane of the magnitude of the

rabbit question. I hav<: in !llY [9.30 p.m.] hand the report of an mterv1ew

held with certain gentlemen who have an intimate and extensive knowledge d the question. .Mr. Hood, who is chairman of the '\Iitchel! Rahhit Board. was mtervwwed r•,centlv on the ,ubject, and I wish to read a comparatively brief portion of his remark&-

In the years of the drought millions of rabbits pE'rish€'11. but illc gTowth of ~ra:-s and herbage ancl t_he replenishing f tanks and stre:tms haYe b~ought witll 1 hem a trcJuetld01b multiplie~Jtion of rabbits. In the Warrego (listriet ttJcy are parti{'ularly nun,erous. and tlH'lr grrnvth tlwrc~ ha~ been faeilitated by the eolla-pse of the \Yarrego Rabbit Board. 'f hat body, after laymg out a g-ood deal of money. cxlmnsted its crPdit ahout threE· vears ago. and the Government WPre obliged to step in and carry on its work. Fnfortnnately. the reYCllliC, owing to the decrease 111 stock, fell. so sho_rt th~lt it did not suffice to keep all the fences rn rernnr, and it left, no nwrgin for dE) a ling with the pAst in the en(•}o~ed bnlding~. The r,·~:mlt is thn.t they lHtYe spn td and multiplif'd in all directions, and have become a menace to the country.

Addre.ys in Repf.y. [2 .JUNE,] Address in Repl.y. 2:39

Then further on he s~ys-

It is the border fence of the 1Iitchel1 nab hit Board 1Yhieh is keeping baek the wav9, nnd the strennons etrorts of the hoanl1t~clf in the directirJU of poi.:;oning and trappi11g t!Jat are preventing the pe~t grtting a bold in the .},lite hell di::;tl'ict. In the \'rarrPgo distrlct step.;; are beiug taken to J..::eep the priuciprtl lines or feneing in proper repair. The b• "'t eonntry, he points out, is netted in, lmt, nule:->s the l'abt1lt~ ::.\\arming in and out. of many enclo.:wd arf'a~ ~ll'f' dealt \Yith. he thiuk:-~ it is only a matter of time lJcturc they take pos'lessioll of the whole eountry. \1"h:tt led to the pest gf•tting ,,:J a hold over thl! 'YaiTt'~O dis.trict. \Yrl.S

that the were crectefl too late The mischief had prar~tiulll y been flonc he fore the rcquh;ite stet-JS had bc::>n ta.ken to cheek it.

I ha Ye here another report of an interview with a. g~ .. ntleman \' ho has had a \'ery e-x:tenshe .aC({Uaintance with thi;-; pe~t, a.nd one who~,~ te."'tirr~ony iH absolutely indf'penchmt.. I n'lfPr !O JYir. \Vnndbim, -, !llember of the Land Court. This is what he suys-~

'rlle \Vcstern districts of Sew ~onth ·wales: \Tere com­pletely en-teu ont h_\ rabbits I \YHS oYer lhat eottntry in 1~-32. bc·t'ore tlle rabbit iu·- <L~:ou. ~\t. that 1itnt' it was fil~.t~cla~~ country--country very like that of~onth­wcstfl'Jl Queensland. I \T:1s out tlu:rc again in 18U5,. and the lwldiugs !I nU deteriorated tln'ollgh the r:LTages of the raiJhits. Xot only had t!H·t· de::-:troyE~d t.lll~ hest lJa~tllragc. bnt they had been so t.Lick aJHl. :-:o nurnerotts thH.t they lJad poh-onc<l thl ground. and tbt' whqle of the mi-.chief liad been (lone in 1.!Jree or f'onr years. J'rom .\t'W -..outh \\-ales the pest S\n~pt into Qncen~slan(l. I was at Bulluo Downs and other runs in Soutb-westcrn ·Queemdand in l8Bi' and 1~98; ar'.d tbe rabbits then were kept on that }JOrtion of the country. and pre­vented from advauci~,g by means of \Yell-erected rabbit~ llPtting fe1wes :Xatufally iu the Hlclo):;ed areas tlie .country was much eliten out, especially on Hulloo Dowus. Since tlleu I he{lr that the rabbit-netting fences have been allowed to get i1·to di~rcpair, and the rabbits are mardung upward rapidly. Th<~ t being so, I think it will be only a, watt er ot' a few yuus be fort) the whole of Queensland will feel the very serions effects of the invasion. ~

[Mr. LgsrNA : Good heaven" ! What have we done to put up with all this?) I' is not intended for the bon. memberfor ClPrntont. It is intended for men of a sPrious turn of mmd, who have the welfare of the country at hE>art, and I tell the hon. member tbat he is gning to bear a great deal more of this queRtion, at,d that, if be ant! his party do not set.t.le it, the rabhit question will settle Queensland. Mr. \Voodbine goes on to say-

If they are allmved to increase in South-west Queens­land as they are doing they will advance further, and get on lhe Darling D<Jwns. RHbbits, you know, trend north and cast. rrhey arf' mttl\ing north, and have a1readv been seen in the vicinity of !{oma, and I should 8ay they are further down. In a good season like this they breed marvellously, and they eat out the bes~ pasturage. As long as that holds~ out. and they can advance in to npw· territory, the~· will not touch the bad stnfl', and they can do without \vater when there is plenty of fresh g' ass.

There is no question but that these rabbits go on increasing in alarming nu m bAr:-::, and round aboUt Bri8bane there iH a very great deal of ignorance on the subject; I do not think the Premie-r or even the Secretary for Lands reali"es fully bow serious a menHce tbis pest is to ~neen,Jn,nd. On looking through the papers from time to time I see paragraphs like this-~

Rabbits arc inereaslng in this district in millions. but there appears to he HO effort made bY the G-oYernment to stop their march, and HS a coru~cq~cnce tile pastoral propert.ie·~ out this wa~' arc being eaten out by the pest.

Then a correspondent, writing from Hungerford, says-

I was particularly struck with the bare appearance of the eountry on the ..:\ew 8outl1 'Yale~ side of the netting_ fenee, and upon making inquiries I learnt that J

the country right to Hrmrke, "~amuuing, and Wilcannia was almost as bare, the rabbits haYing eaten the country out. Cl'rra\vimJ_va and BoonLl'a !'tations, adjoming- the horder, at present look remarhalJly well, altlwngll on drivlng ::long tlw road I connted many rabbit:-;: tile pest being also notie{~abl;~ when driving thron~h t.ltc rrharg· )mind all l'ttn. ThPre is no doubt tLat ralJbit fencin~ is the only cft'edive \-VJL\ to cope with the P~-'~t. as along the bord_m· tencr, iu tile drought. old hands haY A info: mc(l 1ne 1 hat 1 he rabbits clied in millions. ~llitl llarl to he ~·lt;ared :l'xay front tlw fenct-71or mi\f•s hat'l.;:. Still wt: lia,·e t.lle rablntJ no\Y on lmmy of tl•c rnns in the (listrict in millions and miLlions, and it i:o: only a qtw.~tioll of time whPu they nntRt rL.tch the Gnlf. The rail bit qne~twu :-:ll0'..1ld h:r,·e been made

national one ,YBftl'1' ag'O a::> pa~torahsts in the ~outh­Wt \C l·ave rnined I hern:;elves fPHLing in the rodents for the benefit n[ the whole enlnny. Xo UonlJt <luring the dronght hunn\' dicrl ill millions, and if steps had been tllen tiiken to have all the cheek fpnees repfdrcd and kept in repair and 101) poi. .. on~earts ke~t going throud10nt lllP rli:-:triel, regardless ot' cost, bnnny wonld ha\"c taken many year.-; to Ureed up. _As It. is uow. there aJ·e more rahbitt' in tlli d1~triet than in the ::,ood seasous of 180:2 and lK\!:J,

He goes on to say that fencing and poisoning are 'ery effective, and that if so met bin~ is nut done the wbolt> eoun•rv will be uven·un. Then we tind that. the rabbits have :wtually got as far as \Varwick. \V hen I re:ttl that I said, "That is just \\·hat we wanted; the rabbit question will be settled now," but notwith~tanding that the rabbits are tlwre the Government have tnken no action yet. I suppose tlrey •re rwt sufficieutly thick there. Here is a paragraph which I took frum one of the BriHhane daily pHpers-

An ol<l Tf''idrlent of Dalvf'£11 repm·ts that rahbits have hcen se0n in that f1i;:;trict lately, and that a burrow W{lS discmared '\Vit.ltin ;~oo yards of the raihvay station. He states that rabhits are also on the Queensland slde of the rabbit-proof fence farther 'Yest.

Then another correspondent, writing frmn Ero­lnanga, Hays--

I regret to report that the rabbits are spreading all over the •iistrict. Twe!Ye Inonth:-~ ago you would not hear "rabbit'' mentioned, but now it matters not to whom you talk. whethel' ~quatter, drover, she;-uer. earrier, or deadbeat. the eommon remark is. "'fhe rabbits nre spreading in lhfiusand~." The general consensus of opinion ~eems to be that, unless immediate steps are taken to check his progrc•,s, the rodent, in less than twelve months, will take possession of the whole country.

I could go on reading extracts by the hundred relating to this matter, but I will just content myself witlt one more. In a letter from \Vindorah a correspondent says-

Within a radius of nbout 100 miles from here, Keroon. gooloo, Sprin;tield. and Tenhflm stations arc infested, and the traces of the rabbits are visible on every S(1Uare mile. rrhis is bnt a small portion as compared w1th a 1·adius from Windorah Lo Charleville. The reports from here to Ads. vale and on to Cbarleville teem with refer­ences to the amount of damage being done by this dire visitatiou. and travellers report that the tracks of rabbits are visible every1vhere.

[Mr. LESINA: Is it not po"sible to tin the rabbits?) The bon. member does not know what be is talking about. Reference was made last session to that vety matter by the bon. member for Charters Towers, and now the bon. member for Clermont makes somewhat similar reference". It is true enough that in some districts of New South \Vales and Victoria, where the population is thick, where railways exist, and where the climate is fairly coCll, you can tin rabbits, hut once you get away frorn the raihvay lines in \V esteru districts it is quire impossible to brim; them to the railway stations in a condition tit for tinning. Kot only C<HJ you make no use of the flesh, but you cannot even nse the skin, and the only reliable phm by which you can destroy this pest is by poisonir;g and trapping. One man with a poison cart can make a kind of track 10 miles

240 Addres8 in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

long in a day, and di,.;tribute pellet,.; of phosphoros and pollard. I understand that if this is done and ke[Jt up you can ke•>p the mbbits in check at an expenditnre of about 7s. lid. to 10s. n sqnare mile. [J\1r. LES!NA : Can you not tan their bark?] T•1ere are some persons whose bark there i:-:; no occa.sion to tan, because it is tanned already. I do not think west of Cunnamulla you c·u1 rnake any ec )llmnic u.:;e of the rabbit, and the only eff.cti ve methed of dealing with thern is by voisoning and fencing. In con­clusion, T ,hould like to say that there are vety few people who have any Hea of the rapidity with which rabbits increase. I hold in my hand a printed document which goes into the question very fully. I have no desirH to read it becmse it is very long, but boiling ic down what its figures convey is thi<: Take a male and female rallbit with ~ight youngoneR, and assume that they breed under noriTLll condition-; at six wPeks old, and that tht>y have y,,nng eYery Hix week~ aftenvard~. Working it out-I h"ve got the figure' here which any hon. member c~n see-we find that in twelve months the total number a pair of rabbits will breed will be 3,40;\~40. I should be very glad to sho>v that statement to the Treasurer, e.s he knows a little about figures, and, if it will have the effect of convit,cing hon. members of the danger that is threatened from the rapid breeding of these rabbits, my work will not be in vain. .Most people have heard of :Mr. Sidney Kidman, who is known as the "cattle kin>;"; he has had as much experience in the \Vestern country as any man in Australia, and this io what he said at a meeting held in Brisbane-

The rabbits are rather a ~erious thing out there. The reeommen(1ations of the eouferenl'e seem to me to be Yery fair, anLt they propose a very fair form of tax. There's a tremendous lot of aba11doned C~luntry in ttat })art-so mnny st;..tions thrown up. It' peOllle can't dtttl w1t· tlle rabbit~ on freer old land, worth pounds pe1 acre, "\Vt at is to be done when thousands of miles of tlht class of couutry llave to be con~idered;.. WlH'll it will get stocked up again, I'm ~ure l (lon't know; the losses have been greate!· tllan anyt in~ people imagine. Wh;tt tho:;;e pnor devils must h·.ve sqffered ~ All through r he dr •ngllt we were paying £1H a t 111 for ~artage, and that, \Yas after railing gond~ 6UO miles. or course t.hry ard having a splendid ::-:eason out there now.

Then he went on to sp~ ak uf matters in con­nection with the land administration tD which I should have referred before, but I wili read it here--

At the meeting )·ou compared tbe term~ oiTerP<l to pasloralists by Qneen:-land ·with those obtainable in ~outh Austral m.

l\h·. Kiilm>~n prod.w•e(l pnrticular~ of hi~ }Hopertie::-~ in both State:-:. For ll,G-::l-1-G. s'illarc miles in Qneen~land his rental amounts to £2.t\24 l7s. ;)(l., to say nothing of rabbit rate~. divhioual board rate:-:. alJd hig-h carriag-e. ln the Xortllcrn Tenitory lie holds Yietorm Dmvn::;, area 1L6 H ~quare H!iles, ~uHl pay~ the ''onth _\ustralian Governlllent £HOO 1 ~s. a year.

He p>tys 2s. Gel. a mile for hh land in Snuth ~-\.ustralia, while he payH to the Q11eensJand Trea~ sury three or fr,ur tirne~ as :illuch for hiH l:tnd here. I think I ha\'e said en<•ugh to show that thi~ rabbit que.stidn is a very Sf"rions one, and I think it is not ,..,nongh f~ 'r n per-. ... on to point out the nature (Jf the eyj] ; he shr •>1ld alf.:o pre~H-·nt to the Gm·ernnwnt proposals which he thinks will check thc; B\'il. And I think the metho I "ng­gested at the recent ~nnft·rmH.:e held in Brit<bHI1e was an eminently fair one: That in lien nf the preRent sy,ten: a tax of 10 per cent. on the rent.s should be contributed by the lessees; selectors to pay only 5 per cent. It was not sug>;ested that the 10 per cent. Rhould be added to the rent, but that this tax of 10 per cent. should be levied on the ba,is of rents ; and

that this arnonnt should be paid to the centra[ board. And then, recognising the fact that the Govt'rntnent is the owner of lnnd, it was con* sidered only reasonable-and I think it i~ eminently reasomtble-that they should con­tribute 20 per cent. on the total amount they now recet ve as n-nts frorn all t be pasto1 al lessees. It was considered by men who have hacl a long and experr. kno,;,ledge. that this would come to £120,000 or £130,000, and 1f this were done it would be possible to ]Jre­vent the rabbits spreading and destroying the rest of Qneensland. The Premier h:J.s stated that. £1,200,000 has been expended ; but, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Korth Bris­bane, the pastorahsts contributed two-thi•·ds of that amount.. Tbe Governrnentcontribnted only £400,000, I shall now quote from an article in the Darling Dou ns Oazette de·• ling with this matter, >lnd I t.hi11k it;, of sp<'Cial value, as this is a paper published in the centre of an agri­cultural di" rict. It shows that people who have no present interest in this question take a large and impartial view of the po,.;ition. This is from an arLicle contained in that paper dated the 22nd April last--

Those engaged in industrial pursuits in Queensland have had to eon tend against many serious difficulties. ·when r.atural conditions have promised a fair oppor­tunity for the prosecution of an industry, labour disputes­have more than counterbalanced the good effects of the season ; and when a propitious season combined with freedom from industrial disputes seems to point to a good time for the indtlStrial captain, he find~ that tbe Combined good effects arc neutralised by t.he presence of an animal or vegetable pest. This has been par­ticularly thn lot of the \Vestern vastoralist, \YhO->'-' trial~ have been scarcely less than thot;C inJiicted upon the patient ,Job. It is in tier· 1 surprising t.ba..t tht!SC n.cu have still the heart to battle ag-ainst the adver~e cir­cumstances which are unfailingl.v mauifes;ting them­selves. There was a time in the history of Queensland when dissensions between the pastorali:-<t and the agri­culturist preYented a full rnea~ure of justice being given to eittJer of these exceedingly clesi. ,tble cla::;ses of settlers. Old prejndi('f'<; die hard. and there are still amollg..;;t us men who would strive to revive old di~sen­swn~, but, generally spcal\ing, the men of to day are 1viser than those of n ~eneration ago. \Ve realise that the p~::-~toralist and the agricultnri::-~t arc ead1 in his O\VH

way tuanfully niding in the developmcn t of the ::itate. They are working not on parallel but on converging lines, which h:tve a common objeet in view. l~nt when the converging lines meet, the pastoralist has to ~1ve pl:1Ct~ to the agricnl(urist.. That has hecn t.lw le~dn taught by history in all countries and in all agf''·

After Raving that pastorali~t;, particularly in the \Vestern country, are entitled to fair and liberal tre»tment, the article goes on-

There is uo qnrstion of the hcrcnlean efforts lr'adt) hy the pa:-:torali~ts to check the spread of the rabbits. bnt tllcv now 1all hRck exhaustet1, and a~k the G-oYernnwnt to t~Ll<e np the work. Is 1t a \YOrk the Gm:ernment should uudertakP ~ "\Vc may be wrong. bnt t'rom tfte ~t:wdpoint fiOm wh10h we view t}Je (tncstiou we thil1k it is unr1oubte<llY a national work. and as ~ueh .-..hould be undertaken in· the Government

LThe SECRE~'AHY FOR l'c:BLIC L.\NllS : The hem. member for Norl h Brisb,ne, -itting in front of you, knows perfectly well that the conduct r,f some pastoral 1st:-:; has not been irreJHnacha hle in cnnnecti'm w1th this matter.] [.:VIr. CA1IEl<OX: I do not admit that. J I 'hould like to ask: I.> there any re:cuwn why a. tr:·nant who occupie:-; et•nntry in this State ,bnulrt be compelled to protect that c ·nntry? [Tile SECHE'l'AHY FOR PUBLlC L.ums: That is not the que.sti.m.] I want to point out that there is no rea3on why tbesP men should be compelled to protect the country frmn rabhit.s any rnore than n, ten~nt 'honld be compelled to protect a house from white ants. The position is this : In this State there is a large area of Crown land. and this land Is now threatcmed with destruction

Address in Reply. [2 JUNE.] Address in Reply. 241

'Ly the rabbits, and th(' G-overnment are n1ore interc•sted in this matter than th'' p:<st.,ralists. 'l'he progress of the mbbi~s should be checked. 'l"hey are thr(''ttening the I>.triing l)o~wvns, and if the Gnvernment doeR not deal prdrnptly and effl-'cti \'t>ly with thetn, in a few yt.~trs they will lose a large amount of re\ en ne. l think I can leave the rabbi•. question no c ;>nd pass on to 80rDPthing Plse. \Vtj ha\·e tl~ en told a great deal abtmt immigration and i')O forth, but after the speech the hem. member for :\Iackay n1adt• last night, t do not inlfmd. ro refer to this subject at >Ony great length. lf we du not hold out every enc mragement to men uf capital to curne here, they a!::lsuredly Wtll not corne !lere--if they uxe not sure of erlCI;uragernent, of n1aking money, they will not come here, but wiil go sornewhere else where•. the conditions are bt:'tter. In Ar~entina anrl in Canada they are receiving sucb 1nen with open arn1s, aiid if \Ve intend to increat>t our population-and without increa··ed popuLtti.m thi, country will never be what it ought to be-we mnst cut down the prices of our landti--in :smne oases give the land for a nominal figure, a11d aL.o give every encourage­ment to the residents on the soil. If we did that we should do away with the un­employed question, and with a great many other difficulties that we labour under at the present time. ·we hear a great deaL about adult suffrage. Some pooplo imagine tha• adult suffrage is a romodv for all our ovils. The hon. member for I~eichhardt told us all al:out the Heform Act of 1832. but he hrgot another Act which was passed in 186i. The argument of the hon. member was that our legislation with regard to the franchise is less liberal than the legislation in England As a matter C>f fact, it is a great deal more liberal than it is in England. Practically every adult male in Queensland who wishes to get enrolled can do so; there is nothing to stop him if he has been resident in the country for a few months. As to the vexed question as to whether women should be given votes, I may say that. when I was younger, and possibly not so vv1se, I was a strong advocate for giYin~:; women votPs, and I rnay even voto for it; but the more I have read and the more I have observed, the less inclined am I to extend the franchise to women. As hon. members mav know, in many of the States of America tho women have had votes for many yE' ,r·c, but some of those States have altered the law and deprived women of votes. \Ye lmo·v that at the Federal election in ()necnsland last De­cember only slightly over 30 per cont.. of the women voted. Of course, I may bo told that this was the flr ,t timo they had exercised the franchise, and that on future occa~ion::; a large number will g·o to the poll. [~,lr. LESINA: H-ear. hear!] rrhe hon. n .. en1ber cries "lJear, hear" too som>. If he knew the condition of thing·· in A u:-:.tralia he •-.·ould not say " Hear, hear." South .Australia was the first State in the Common-.vealth to give adult suffra~e, and, w>h ithstanding that, a"t ti1e election held in Dt·cen1l: :r t}w poreentage of won1en who polled in that State was smaller than in any ot.her State. It barely exceeded 23 per cont. That is a very strong argurnent against giving women votes. I do not say that there are not vory ,trong argurncmts in favour of giving votes, but I arn inclined to auTee with Sir Edmund Barton, who, '.··hen i~troducing the Franchise Bill in the Federal Parliament, said the advantages about balanced the disadvan­tages. I am smucely prE>pared to say whether it would be a good thing· or an evil thing to give tht'm the francbis<e. If I wore quite certain that the women of Queensland wanted votes, I would give them votes. As we hear

1904-R

so much about the referendum, perhaps it would bo just as well if we asked the question of the voters, and also one or two other ques­tione. \ great Inany people imagine that a vvidcr franchi~e is going to be a cure for all onr trnublcs. I a1't1 glad to know that the Hon1c Sec retarv does not believe in a wider franchise at the 'present moment. If I am doing the hon. gcontlcman any injustice, I hope he will sot me nght. I was rather pleased to see that the hon. gentleman was not in favour of t'Xt(~nding the franchise under cxi~ting condi­tions. :\Tost. hon. members know that he has litPrEu;- leanings. On a reet~nt occasion he c!Palt with the subject of education, and said-

It i', assumea, on all hands, that an edn('ation of the orthodox brand must of necessity be a very fine thing. It may be a good thin~ to teach a bo~r to read, and it may be a very, very hacl thing. If the growing- youth takes kindly to Defne, DiclH-ms, I,ytton, ~cott, Shal~espeare, Byron, Thackcray, it may be well. antl n~ading may be­come for him a fount of perennial profit an cl pleasure. Bnt the growing yonth-HS fal· as I have obServed-is a greflt d(•al more likely to ~pf'Ud hiR ti111e in thP pu·usal of " Comic Cut~." •· Deadwood Dicks," records of the turf, annals of the boxing ring, and :::dmilar literature. And in this rase the ability to read only me~ns the ability to debauch the intelleet.

That is a very strong argument ag~inst our present system of education. The bon. :,;entle­man further Baid-

Fnrthermore, if the ability to read only implies the ability a11 d desire to read a certain type of newspaper daily and its disgusting· records of social sr:tndal. political jobbery, and wholesale massacre in Africa, Asia~ and elsewhere, then I submit that the ability to re:1d is a pmver our commn11ity might dispense Yrith without sustaining any scrions darn age.

It is a very easy matter to give a man a vote. It is no e~sy matter to teach hjm to exercise his power rightly ancl truly. The exte!Jsion of the franchise is all very well in its way, but in the educated, enlightened voter lies the trne hope or democrat.

The Home Secretary ;;dmits that we have not got the educated and enlighcened voter at the present time, anrl I "greP with him that until we do get that. C"ducated aml enlightened voter we Hhall not snff"!t HllY f'edOilS darnage hy not extend1ng the franchise. But there is a ,:.;reater authority th:tn eYen the 1--Iome Se::ret.a ry-a man na1ned G. B. Shaw. [An honourable rrtember: '.Vho i...; he ?J '11 he hm1. tnPmbPr ~bows his ignorance in nnt bei11g acquninted with G. B. Shav,.r. He is a Iitt"rarr m: .J;, <:tDd sonH::.; :rear,s ago was n :-;ocia1i~t an~i wrotP. a nurilber of able es~·1ys on socirlli,...:rn; bnt likP ll1<Ht other p.; ople as hd ha...- gTO\Vll old et hi~ d.:-~ion llRS Lr( aclened. He i~ ,.;;till a democr.1t, nnd in a \\ ork whieh was published a fe,v rr10t1ths :\go 1Je ·wrnte t he:-:e wor~l~, \Vlneh I submit ~hrmld be li ,·t>ned to carefully <:1nd tal-a~n trJ he·1rt by f·Very r]enlnCr~:t-

1\ow we have yet to ~ee t.l!e man who. lmving any practical expericnr·c of pro1et:nian denJIICrac~, lutR any belit-f in its capacity for solvmg grent 11nlitical pro­blem-". m· even t'or doing or•1inary p<~roellial \\Ol'k intelligently ant! eeouou:icaliY. Only under de<:.potit::ms awl ol1~~a1 ehic.s ha.::; 1 he racli{':tl faitlt in · umvers.al suffrage" as a politic:ll arisen. It withers the momPnt it is expose tn f•ractical trial. Au'i'1raii:t and f'·-t~l.'itta. which are Yirtl!ally protPcted il·mom-atic l'epuhlies. ~111 1 }'ranee and tllf: r:-niterl. Rtates. whie1t are aYm.veilly inde]Jendcut. clcn!O(•ratic l'CpnblH'8. are nellllC:r he~-llt.h.\ nor wi~e. 1.\nd tlwy\-vould be wor.-;e in-;tf'Hcl of it' their JlOpnlar .:\Iini.~~ .JTS W<'re not in art of dodging popular enthu-siasms, aml popular ignoranr·r:~-

..'l.t one minute to 10 o'cloek, l\Ir. TURNER called attention to the state of the House.

Quorum formed.

Mr. P . .J. LE .. A .. HY, resuming, said: Some hon. mr"m bers do nnt care to hear home truths. Mr. Shaw further says-

The demagogue, though he profess (and faih:} to readjust mar,ters in the interests of the majority of the

[ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl,y.

elcct01 ·, yet ~tereotypes medioerity, and organises intolerance.

That is the opiuion of a man who is still a great clerr1ocrat, and it is au opinion which should carry a great deal of weight in this House. I am not an opponent, as I think I ha vc already said, at least not a very strong opponent, to widening the franchise under pro­P''r conditions. But I say we shall have to be quite sme that the conditions in this Bill are fair and juflt. --:l grc'at deal ha.:- been said. on the cpc• Lion of the reduction of members: and

11r:n the present ~Vlinistor for Agriculture the adoption of tlw Address in Reply

ye .. ·, he said it was a splendid thing that a man should die for his countrv. and that it was the duty of cYery ono of US, even if it rnct:..nt political (•xtiuction, to Yoto for a measure wch as that. ThC' present Premier last ye•u told us that the first Bill he would introduce }'\'Ould bn a Rill to reduce the num­ber of IV e know that all over A us-

South .Australia, \Yestcrn ~tlustralia, ?\c' South \Vales, and -victoria-the number of mC'mbcrs h<-; bt•cn reduced. and yet we are

to believe that public feeling in Queens­is '0 clilfcrcnt from what it is in the other

t.haL WP haYc no certain knowledge the people ch,sirc a reduction in the

number of nwmbcrs. Th<• thing is perfectly ahsurd. The Labour party, as most of us kno\v, have kept the Goverrnnent in power in :'\cw South ·wales for seYeral years, and the Labou;: party there opposed the reduction of members as strongly as possible-until they wuld not oppose it any longer; and then they atr.0n1pted to :shelve the question the san1e as it is attempted to shelve it here-by means of a refcrC'11dum. Then they made a fight for a limit of nind:y---some people suggested that it should he below ninety. With what result? ThC' people by an overwhelming majority ,-oted for thP !owPst number thev were allowed to vote for. \Ye ar0 vcrv often told in this Chamber that we should' do things because rho other States have done them; and if there over was a case in which we should do as the other States have done, it is in a case like this. All over Australia there is a large majority in fa,-our of reducing the number of members, and why is it that we are ncit going to follow suit? Do we not know that on account of federation the duties of mem­bers are less onerous than before, and what is the reason the Government insist on shelvmg this question? I can only come to one conclu­sion-and I do so with very great regret-that the party on whom the Government depend for political existence are afraid to reduce the number of members, and are not game to face the consequences. The leader of the Labour party "let the cat out of the bag" last week. He told us that he did not believe in the reduc­i,ion of mernbc•rs; and is it to be supposed that the leader of the Labour party, who controls the Premier, will allow him to bring such a Bill in '1 V\'bat have things come to when the leader of the Labour party shapes the destiny of the country? Is that a condition of things that the people of the country ought to tole­rate? If we are going to have a referendum at all-I do not think it is necessary-it should rtot be simply confined to the one question of ho\v n1an~y members we are going to have. \Ve should :)ay, "Do you believe in thf~ p.~ymc nt of members? If so, what would you give them-£300, £250, £150, or £100?" vVe might also say, ''Do you believe in adult suffrage?" If we put the question before the people at all, we should do it thoroughly; and when I find hon. members opposite refusing to

bring matters of that kind before the people the only conclusion is that they are afraid to trust the people. I now come to a very im­portant mutter, and that is the sale of land. 'l'hat is intimately connected with the finan­cial position of the country, and, as I have already indicated, the finances of the country rrrc icnmcasurably the biggest ques­tion which the Government has before them. I am very glad-because I like to give the Govnnment all the credit I can-that they haYe gone in for the sale of land. 'The,y recoatly sold some 50,000 acres near Cunna­rnulla. Of course thn Treasurer nw de them sell that in order to reduce his deficit. I do not find fault with the Government at all for s(•ll.mg it. I ''"Y this country will Eever be pru,-,pcrous uutil \Ve sell a groat deal n1ore hud. I have perwnal lmowleclge of that lu,nd; it r11ns along the railwa,v on both sides, and it ~annot be disputed that it is the finest ln1Hl in South-western lJueen;;land----probably equal to tlv best land in the Barcoo. If the prier obtained is the value of that land, and 1 bclir>ve it i,-, vou will have to sell the poor \Y rf'tera land ~t ls. or ls. Gd. an acre. This cmmtrv "i!l never be ''.'hat it ought to be unless· we sell bnd extensivelY. \Vr have sornetiting lik'' 400,000.000 acres· of land, and CVP!l ]f Wf' sold it at 1-.he low aYcrage of 2s. Gd. an acre that means £,10,000,000. I do not sup­pme that "c eould sell it in twelve or eighteen months, but v·c might in twelve or fifteen years. ,Just contrast the position we should be in then with the position we arc in to-day. \Y<o could pay our mttional debt, on which we have to pay £1,GOO,OOO a year interest, and we wc,u!d have £10,000.000 left for public works. Our revPnue, deducting the an1ount now re­cPived from rents. would be improved to the

xtcnt of £1.100.000 per annum, so that we ~;,hould require no incOme tax; we could afford to increase the education vote, to go in for old age pensi·:ms. and to do a lot of things we cannot Clo ntH'\'. But, better and more Im­

portant than all, the wealth of the country would be incn•ascd bv the usB the land would be put to. I am convinced from a knowledge of the hislorv of this country that unless we go in for larg<:> sales of land we are not going to have prosperity in our time, and perhaps not anv time. I am of opinion that the in­come tax should not be re-enacted. I do not carC' whr•ther I stand alone in this matter. L NI r. Cow.\ P: Poil tax as well ?J Y ec, the whole lot. I voted somewhat reluctantly for the income tax, but I saw plainly that owing to the condition of the country at the time it was a matter of ncce"ity. The drought was on, and it was impossible to sell land at anv price. You could not get anybody to buy it 'and we wanted revenue. There was no other c/Hnse left to the Government, because they had to find revenue to pay their way. The posi­tion is altog0ther different now. We have prob­ahlv the finest season we have had for twenty veues. Our flocks and herds are increasing, not, perhaps, very rapidly, but they are increasing. 'J'iw whole country is covered with verdure, and there is a cheerful tone generally. The channels of revenue are not dried up the same as th8y were a few years ago ; and if the Government would sell land in moderate quan­tities, they would be able to dispense with the income tax and with the special retrenchment ali<o. I believe that not onlv would the sale of land have that rffect, but it would also tend generally to induce settlement, and in that wav would be a very desirable thing. \Ve have l'eon told a great deal about the harsh manner in which t!:~ l'<te Government admin-

Address in Repl:IJ· l2 JuxE.] Add;·ess i;t .Reply. 24B

istered the Income Tax Act last year, and, of cour,,c. now that we have a sympathetic Go­verun1cHt---a Governrrtcnt that is practically a Labuu::_· GoYf'l'JHncnt-it is only natural to sup­posP that the poor rnau would bo treated Su,-mpathC'tically, that he V\'?Uld :receive 110

harsh atmcni". and that his fcelmgs would not be at all. Now, I hold in my hand a

dated 27th :Hay, and signed by the for IncornP Tax, w hi eh I shall

t.hc If ous~-'-

~\-o .·e of Dr·,·ltuut:Jn o' AvetU.

To the 111aua:sf.cr, l'. J. Le~.hy alld Comvany, Lnulted, :, .. tivual _\lutua1 L'luun 1 ~:rt-. Hl'1:::iiJ,cllC,

Take uotlf~e tnar; the Hlld Tiuentwned wxpa} .::r::i emplo.\ ell uy j ou lJ,H·e lal!utl Lo till! ~1uu of 1 U.:l. }Ja.J.<tlJt'.: b.Y cad1 of rm tbu ot _-)lH'Il, H:Hl·J, on t.lw a:sou::; . ..:;nee_l.-. made lJy lJUbhu datua the bL lU •·±, <UHll l~.eretlJ du~.:~ ll'c JOLt to b~ the agec~L oi' ui tuu :-oa;d ta:.;:payer:s 111 r1 ~veo.:t or t tw said a:s1le~~mcuts, anu 1 reqnn·u to pay tllC tax tllUt;Ou. t110,e"11er \Yllll a !s. cad1. l./'lllg Lite adtlit.JOlwi att1uuut by ,ecw:mtil of the LU("Jlne rl'ux Act Oi: lUJ::.

And Lhc name of the employee is A. A. Priora. l~.lr. GHA:\T: rftlat is the sal1le notice that 1\ as seut out last yctr.J Li\lr. CoWAP: And you voted for it.] This man, l may "''plain, is not a regular employee of my firm in Thargo­gomindah. He IS a man whom we employed !or a few days only. Last year he got a few days' "'1\ 0rk fron1 us. too; but there was no uotice of this kind sent then. The Govern­ment that controlled the affairs of the country lik;t yc;ar did not send notices of this l<ind. [c.lr. CowAP: Oh, didn't they?] But this year we find a Governmcut, "'hich is supposed to be iu svinpathy 1vith the poor n1an, administering this' Act in a much harsher ancl more drastic manner than the late Government did. I intend to in£onn t.he Con1missionor for Inco1ne Tax that I am not going to be the agent for this rnun. Before I received this notice I paid this man any money I owed him; and if the comrnis-jionur ·want~ to get tho money he can apply to the man himself. The less those hon. members talk about the income tax the better. ThPv had an opportunity last year of doing away with the poll tax, and they would not take it. [t is owing to the action of hon. mem­bers opposite that it is possible to send out sueh notices as that which I have just rear!. \<Vhen member; on this side wanted to exempt men up to £100, every man on that side re­fused to do it, and it is O'<'' ing to their action that the poll tax is the law of the land to-day., They are responsible for the porpctuatwn of the poll tax, an cl instead _of d· _ _no~nc~ng the late Government in conncctwn w1th It, If those ~cntlernen are ·y>"ise, the loss they say about the question the better for thcm•, 0 1Ycs. The country has got their mea.sure .about it, and the country "'ill make thou opmwn about It known at the right time. [Mr. KERR: They !mow who put the poll tax on thorn, anyway: l [Mr. J. LEAHY: And who refused to take 1t off.! Before lcaying the cle.-elopmcnt of the coul1t1·y, in rny opini?n, :vhat t.hif> country wams at the preson<,o hme 1s the development of all its primary industries-pastoral, agncul­turul and rnining. \Vo want to sell land, and thorc'bv decn taxation. By rneaus partly of the- procc of sale~ of bnd. ~nd partly, perhaps) by borrowrn~ of a .mo~~w.r-ato a nount of n1oncy, \ o want to burld rml­way,,-light and otherwise. 'ye w.1nl" to do Pvcrything we can to mere a se th0 productJVc powN of the country. I bdwvo th":t the pro­rlucers~-whr thcr they arc pastorahsts. sel~c­tors or a,o-ricultnraJ farn1ers--·-are now begin~ ning to r,;cognic' that they have intere·,ts in

common. 'l'hc Labour party at one time tried to delude the small selector mto the behef that they were his friend, but the selectors are l eoo,Hing wioor. I noticed a vGry pregnant fact ,,ecentlv in Yictoria in connection with this matter: There was a farmers' league being formed at a place called Cranbourne, and the chnixman explained the objects of the IYJBf-)tlng, as follow~:~

Tlwv were met to ent01· :.t prot ;;;;i again:- the trend of ~oeiali.:;tic kgblation, and1o cnwhat Jll'. Tom }faun's doetriue. In the to .. ns all(l citie.s the .sociali::;t:-; voted "to u man," whi!r> in the country tlw· electors were too ~upme t1> vote. 1 he COil.:-l'flH; lHk' \Yns that the 'l'rad_e.s Hall exo··u!lVC wer,; becOJniu~ <tnC!aeious, and wt>re '-Clldin;!, re_lJre:sentatn-" ont into t!le euuutry to contest tlte Heat~; ·where tl1ey thought the,\' had a ehatH~(~ to score.

.AJter some rerna.rk.s tht~ f()llnwing reBolntiuns \vere earl'ied u11anirnuu.sly :---

Tllat. jn YiC\Y of the result of the last Icderal election, thb meetiug of lanners. propul't_\'-OWllel •. and producers, con!:ii.ders tlwt the Litu~ lla~ arrrYell "\ViWa t.}H"'Y ~hould fontl themse ve~ into an as:-;(, to tw r·llh l ''The li':~rmer~·, Property-o,vner~,' aLtl rs' A~·:;ncia-tion." haYiug- ror Its the banding tltvmsel\'CS tog;etlL'l' in a ~ol U bot~Y, tl,e tYU'j>O~e of re :bt!llg to the utmosu nt all cleetJon:-.. wltetiJcr federal or St' te, all sueialrstic and Labour nllldi<latc~. alt ~1 JCi:.l~istle leghda­twn. and to generall} watch oyer tl1C be~t interests of the as.sociatiuu.

The elections which have just been held in Victoria prove abundantly that the farmers are awake. There is a growing tendency for all producers to come together, and the old pre­judices are gradually being rcn,10vcd, and a h<'tter state of feeling begmmng to exiSt between all classes of producers. A large number of people think that the Darling Downs man is an opponent of the \V estern man, and the \V estern man an opponent of the Darling Downs man. I know the hon. mem­ber for Toowoomba, i\lr. Fogarty, has often said so in this House ; but the truth is that, wh<>thor in ch·ought time or in ordinary times, the \V cstern man is the best consumer the Darling Downs man has got: and, if the popu­lation of the \<Vest were doubled or trebled, it would be a distinct advantage to the Darling Down,. In the same way settlement on thE> Darling Downs is an advantage to the Western people. Vv e require maize, chaff, and other produce, and each of the'C' classes of people arc mutally advantageous to the other. When this £act becomes more generally understood there will be less trouble in dealing with rab­bits and other land matters, which affect the whole of Quecnslnnd as much as they affect the We ,t. \Ye have heard a great deal about this Gonrmncnt, and all that they were going to do. ff I v;ere to sum up what they have clone, and what they have 1iot clone, I would "Y that they have been remarkable for broken pr~)mises, f~r harsh and petty econom:;, for the clisoTaceful action re J ones, for their shirking the question of the reduction of mem­ber>. for retardill(l' the deYelopment of the co·-nt,-y, for frjghtcning capital ou~ of the country and preventing it from commg here, a,nd for a number of other iniquities which, as thr auctioneers say, arc too nurnerous to n1un­tion. I should like also to c'rnphasiso one fact. and it is this-that in my opinion, and in the opinion of a grc'At num.her of othe_r people, the Premi<>r has hroken faith w1th this House and \•,·ith the countrv. When the Government took offk-, there- wcr~r:- 111an:v who inw.girwd tha.t the P:·emin would be strong enough to keep the L:4 'honr nart-v in cbcck. r:_rhev sa-id this was a Lihrral GD\"~rnm0nt, and Lal;our was going to be brought to its senses, and son1c misguided

241. Ad,!ress ~n Replp. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl_y.

people thought they were going to make Labour moderate. What do we find? It will L'~ interesting to turn up the official organ of the Labour party-the WoTko·--and see what it has to say about matters of this kind. The Wor~e1· of the 7th May last says-

As it i"~. thO-" 1 wh(J sre ben:~:tth the snrface of politics kno\V \Vell That the element of stah litv in the move­ment is proYli:t->d hy Lhe or::;aui~ntions (mt~it1P Parlia­ment, not by th(-) letttlersand n~:~ret.'entatn·l~~ 'vithin.

There are ~omc the fJ'nrt: T could name who are loYal and sta~tnch to tl10 bacl..:bon8, ther(! ~ue oU1ees ·who would_ not consci<Jnsly pcrlnitthel!l:o:elvrs to be deftceted from the straight, path; but, g-ranting ~~n that. no earnest student nf thing-s parliamentary can clo~e :ns eyes to the fw'.i that ~o:Lli ion is not a f1i('t on which a sturdy and ind.-pendent. T.Ja.bo'uJ' party eau hnpe to thrive. Under eertH.in eoncEtious it has a me1lieinal value. per­haps, but neither p _·rsous l!or part1es can exist on pl1ysie.

Labmu· 1Hl~ its mvn di~tinctive aims ancl objeets. They can be aeeompli~hed Olll,V by a .. Labour Govern­ment.

In the 'arne journal of the 14th l\Iny we read-'l'he n~:)rkeJ· h:~s before remHl'ked tlvtt it is no'"

expecting the n.iJlennium 1 rom the :\I organ (-.overn­ment, :wd the 11rr·ent seom ... :m opportune time to repeat it.

VVith the vote in the hands of the whole people, Dcm(>eracy \Vi·l but ncell tn b~tw its commands HUd the Governme11t will obey. If not the -<iorg:1n Govern­ment. then some other Government.

-With po\ver in its hnnds and rlesire in it~ hearts, the pe0ple may swerp onward in triumph even to the co-operative commonwealth.

If that i" not a phin, blunt dechtration of "socialisation -in onr time" I do not know what it is. The hon. n1en1ber for Clern1ont some time ago announced that h0 did not intend to C<~nle forward fnt th2tb elPCtflrate again. 1--.nr som.e reat~on 1'r other he has chang~-d his tnind. He went up to Clermnnt the other da,y, and UJO:ed some \·ery strong languagP, a~ r~ porte.f in the Inca: p lper. I have nu de::-Jire to inflict, on the Hon~t~ any c~>nRiderable r~(1rtion of his speech; it is qnite Pnough t h., t we have to 1i~tPn to him. I wiU, howe-·.:er, read a por~-i11U of it. Hl' said.~

'l'lle Labour l_J:trty Vi'OUld only support the present Govern·~ ent so long a it was ot ll:'C to 1lle part.v. At'ter electoral reform, tl!(~n would cc,aw tlw delug-e. The I.Jahour 11arty w:u;: fo1· '·,lle to the L;g-h· l'r, bidder." If ::\Ir. Philp cmne along. they wonl1l snpport him providing thny got somAthi11~in rt-turtl ..._\t 1n·~-~ent t11cythought they cnuld get electoral refol'Jll tltrough tlle :Jiol'gan Governnwn '··

Tht:lt is the wb<,le thing. They want ttn exten­sion vf the franchise which '.dll pnt them in p·~~~e ,__;·m of the Treasury b-:~nch, nnd they are simply using the present Govt-rnment fur that puq;u:::P. To rnaku q :lite sure that I am e-xpn~::::sing the st>nse nf :he po.,rt.,· out ide gene~ I J}y l \vin give JTI ex'ract. frorn another Niinbterial u:gan, '111'Hth. I, ~h.y::;~

}~tcetoral reform; ( 110 adnlt ''110 Yotc. 1.'hat i.., the wateil wo1·d. Ct _il thnL i~ aehiCYt:l:. the L~th11nr mnst not. dare not. 1Jrl:tk awa\· fnJllt 1';- pl'P~etn tinu; the-· Elll•t no1. dare ll.(J1. On m:ytllin:• by \YO:d m· <lcPll which 1 tin·: · tt ~-:.t t'oi·w;n·.t tlt•''-' mu not. not. fall er i.n in their ti:kli1~y 10 high idChl ol' ~J'Ilt~ dClJlOCraey. \Vh:tt i.:-; Jlnr.~·tn :-. llc not f <:::wtl\· Yllwt lH' de(~lli"' tile : J,abonr party to b(-\ a eat~p:t\V;. ·Is it to bt:! SHJlposed 1 thrtt ,-\.rtunr :.\Ion:an e;une d .wn from the pt'·:cr:rul !

qnietnflc of the Spoakf!r'~ elHtir to lead ti1e prC'~ent coa:ition 11 ithont the tull voree~~t1n" 1 hr1t. so f<tl' a~ hP. was abk. lw inten('J.f'fl. to n~e the Lab JUt' p<Lrty. and that, ~o far as t,hey \Vorc abk. thE'y fully intended like­wise to u-;e him~ It wa~ tL barg-dn. alld he aeeepted it. It \vas a ca~,c of barter mlll sale, and he acceded to the terms.

Is it possible for a more severe condemnation of that party to be framed? I said some time ago that the Premier had broken faith with the House and the country. >Vhen he got a sufficient number behind him to form a majo·

1

rit:v, many members did not think they were ,,oing to ~.upport a Labour Governrnent-. but a Governrneut led b.r a pr0.'3ttm<lbly strong n1an, who could control Labour. Those men were opposed to Labour, and are opposed to it still. The House and the country were deceived, for it is quite evident to me that the Premier is prepared to go any length to conciliate the Labour party, if it is necessary to do :-'O, in order to retain power. li0 \-Yill give the1n anvthinrr thev a, k for, i11cluf1ing: the h"<l:ral fntnchis.o. In Amerir 't they ha·1·e llo L Jeml franchise at all. OnG Yery important rea -on '<'hy there .-1honld bP a diffPrencc l1ct·veen the State franchise and the Federal fmn­chise is thi": If the franchise is alike in both in~tances a n1ere bird of pa~sage will have the same aclvanta·;e-, and the same privileges, and the ~arnc pol1tical po,~·er, as a permanent resident of the Stare. In the> Com­Inonwealth there can be no [_Treat harrn in that, because a man cannot very well live out of the Con11non '.\· calth, and if there is mis­government he has to b< ur the brunt of it. whereas in a Stat·_-,. if by his Yotc he has helped to bring about :-nisgoYPrnmcnt, in t-n ent_y-four hours he can clc•:.n· ont into another t)tate, and escape the consequences of that misgovern­ment. I shouLl like to add that iu the other Australian Statf's, v:hf'Tf' thl'y haYP given women votes, the machinery used i;1. not that u-ed at federal elections. There is not lt single State with a machinery Bill similar to that of the Federal Parliament. and ·hy should we be called upon to do a

1111 that lll,ll·· of the other ::__~tatC's has dn:rJc ·: Jn New South \Yalcs :·ou ha.-e to get an clec­tor,.J right, and there arc a number of con(li­tions to be comnlied >"Jith which .:ere not in the federal Act. 1\:hv should l1uccnsland alonP have this (1rastic rneasuro of reforn1? ThE'rc is only one conclusion W" can come to, an cl that is that politics haY8 degenerated to such an ('-~tent that thi~ condition V\ as rnado bet\oYC't:n the Labottr part.y and the PrPmier, and that the PrPn1icr is Pnch a-..-ouring to give f;l-~'ect to tl:w cond-ibon. A yc1.r or b·/o ago the PrPrnicr i\'as not :1 Labour 1nan. I an1 not g-oiu~·· to repeat utterance~ I have heani hiLl gi,-e expre:3sio11 to, Lccause I do not think it right tn rcpcc tt pri,-atc couvor"ation: but '''<" ali kno~.~.r. frorr1 the opinion'1 published in his aud from his occasional spo'~clw~; in the anr1 tLo connh'y that hP \Vas l1(;t a Labour 111an.

How did h,; become sucldcnlv conYcrtc-d? Did it conJo to him in a vio;:ion of the night? It is a. rt'markahlc thi11g that a ~_nun whose opinions \ ·cro oppr:- ?d. to La1'0l:U' at OtlE' tin1c should in three week~ change~ thctn. If 've fiu -1 T·· !i~ in

c of the f'rc:niPr and th S:'cr0tary for .~nd 1nenJ1ccr", I thinl~ \VC

\> ,lT~lnh:-d in to the conclnsion thr~.t of not the n "mlt of their

' nne c -u;c;e 'vhich lw~ anr1 prohal,ly an

,J. T,-r.:AJTY: This is " a~f'. "1 I thi11 1 ~ it IY lR T('nnysnn

The jingling of the gninr-a helps 1l;e nnrt tb:tt honour feel~.

I do not. know that that is b:1t if it i~ it wonld cmJYC''' n,. tPrial ' hir b · t 1H'

.. c n; i10.30 p. m.] to rrcomponsP

t ,an .J nf opinion ,d-~i{ 11 l~c J.w...; undcrf)'one. ~ow. I say that the Go"

f'ich '"Slll11Pd offi"'D tmdcr suc:1 +"ayo': a1 eo''' litions ha> disappoint0d both the House an cl the COUJJtry. Then-- is ~10 mi~·· akc al;out it. For h1nnd8ring' and i11capacity thPy ar.e unparalleled. Nm er h<efore havr there i'een so many actions performed in the short space of

Add1·ess in .Repl,IJ. ~2 .fc.NE.j Address i11 Repl.IJ- 245

:J.~Jinc rnouths which a Government haye been ashamed to defend. I admit that manv people f~okcd upon the change of GoYcn;­rn(·IIt. 1t11 a:1proYal because they thought the Prc•m!Pl' '.':oulrl carry out a safe liberal policy. Thev did 1101 t.hir1k he wap, ~'oin<X to b:-~ dra~:~·ecl at the chariot wheels of Labour, that he was going to be their instrument-an automaton to register the dec,rees of the Labour party. P(".~_..,cilaJly, I baYo uot h:•nu di~appointed. I knew.~ the or.~·m•i~·J.ticm~ outsidt~ that arc the h:u 1-honc of the Labour party, and I know that no man of that party is free the moment he gives Yci.___.e to anyt~1in ~- which cnmes iuto conflict with rhe forty-four planks of the party. The r ,:J]ic lwlievecl that the Premier could control tlw L .. bour partv, but, as I have already re­mark •cl, he is a' mPre ornamental fi -nrelwacl carryiL., ont their airn and wi:.;hcs. His political existence depends upon Labour sup­port. In addition to what he has promi~eJ. tlwru is to be a great deal more. It is as cer­tain as that the sun will rise to-morrow that we will ha.-o a land tax; and what will the farmers of \\ anYidr and Darline· Downs think then <lf this unholy alliance? ' The hon. gentleman m'...tst carry nut any demand~. rcabonal~le and Hllroasm.~a hle. \vhich the J ..... abour partv mav rnrrko. It is time, indeed, that every rriembei· of th1s ~ r oq'"'e who ha~ the welfare of tbe country at heart, and is posses"od of independ­ence-. to fearles~ly exprf'ss his opinions. no matter on what .ide he sits. I was exceclindv dad to hear thP opinions exprP,socl by the h~n-. n10Jnh(•rs for Stanlev and Loichharclt and I believe if other members had as much 'courage as tho.o:e 1TI()ml-rcr" flisplayed, there would very sooiJ h::_- a diffp~·t~ut statP. of affair~. I do not think the pPnple of this countrv desire that the Government should be 'permanently hanclccl over to Labour, but as far as I can see, if thin's go on in the \Vav thev are gain-:, that "ill be result. Tlw country is g·oing- i:o be handed OYPr to the t0nder rnPrcie~ of pro­fc:-::-;]onal politicia11s; who will ch-'"trnv priYute <:•r;r:c>rpri~e. Tbei1~ airn is to hrin~.r' about a r;o1 1·1il'ion of ~o 'jalis"'l1. Thev v.-v1lt ~to chmr.::·e ~hP '1rinl ord0~~ of thi11g~, alJd in n:y opi11i~n1 th1t cha1urc v·1Jl not !Jt' tn tbc arh :1nta~(~ of the COlnn1n11ity. rrhe inevitable pffect \\'ill h~ hl lo "er thf' .<;;ncial and rnatPrial condition of the people. and brin~ us all do\vn to the ,,.rn<e dead level of uniformity. [Opposition members: Hear. hear']

:ilr. RYLAND (Gym pie): This is probably tbe only opportunity I shall have of saying- a few v·ords on the Aclclrecs in Replv. I cannot ag-ree with the sentiments expressed by the last speaker, especially with reg·ard to the objects and aims of the men sitting on this side of the House. Our aspirations as a reprmenta­tive body in political life is to bring· about pence and goodwill amonc-st men, and to make this a l'ettm· country for people t0 live in. Referring- to •'·hat the hon. member has said against the coalition, when I .at opposite I was always told that politics was invariaHy a matter of concession-that no party could exist of iLelL but that they must g·ive and take. Members sitting- on this side are in touch with the a·pirations of the people. comeqtwntly they arn on the Government side, and the late Government party are in opposition. It is only ju~t no\'' that \Ye arc~ cominq· to realise it.. I do not think any great calamity is going to tefall the country simplv Lecc.U'iC there are a foe men on this side who have been elected by the democratic vote of Queensland. Thing-s appear to re p-oinu· on all rivht in other States under coalitions such as we have here. [Hon. R. PHILP: It ruined New South \Yalcs.] The prosperity of the most prosperous State in A us· tra-lasia has been brought about by a comhina-

tion of the democratic element,-I refer to New Zealand. \Ye must admit that New Zea­land at the present moment is more prosperous and stable in its industries and in a better posi­tion apparently than any other State, and we hope to bring about a similar state of things here. I also clisa.gree with the last speaker in connection with the poll tax, because he insinu­ated that it was the Government in power, supported by the Labour party, who wm·e the rneans of introducing the garnishee principle into the Income Tax Act. \Vhcn that was going- through the House, was it not the mem­bers now sitting on this side who pointed out the injustice that it would be to both master and man? I have the division list in my hand and I find the name of P. J. Leahy, the member for \Varrego, on that list voting with the '·_\yes," so that that provision should be retained in the BilL In face of that, the hon. member comes here and tries to make it appear that the Labour _party and thei~ ':\cl­ministration are responsible for the existmg state of affair•·. An Act must be administered as it is found on the statute-book, but our object is to c)lange _ that law,, .and I. hope that during this se,Pion sometnmg will be clone to relieve the poor unfortunate people who are struggling under the poll tax. lf hon. meml·crs opposite would not talk so much, we should get to business. I also dis­agree with the advice he gave to the Govern­ment with regard to the sellmg the lands of the countrv. He said that we shall never have prosperity· until the last acre in Queensland is sold. \Yhat proof can he give that if the last acre \Vas sol cl prospe1~it.y \ovould corne in? I can refer to otlwr cc>untries who,·e all the lands are f rt•cholJ~-Eng~and, Scotland, Ireland, and other couutrics, and is there universal pros­rJeeity there? ~0: bccaWK' the lands are in the l· ·me! of the fc1", and Lhc otlwr people have to ~() begging for leave to live i1~i their own uat.1vc couutry. I app1:ov0 of auy Governn1cnt trying t8 bring about. seith~n1?nt; but th_e late Government had to bnv land bac·k after It had bee'" oolcl yeMs ag·o to-· cna<)lc people to settle on it. \Yhorc is tllP r-.. 1s m for tins? Surely i h\:re are other way gettiiig rid of t.he hnd bv which we can the people pros-p(·ro~ls~ I do not. knov so Jnuch about the in­yaswn of the rahbits l"· fpcr c.J to bv the hon. mmnbcr for \Vanego; but it rcminclccl me that whPn the prPscnt I\ 1ng ~.vas Prince of \Vales and hr was :'pcakinr· on socialism. he said:­"' \V r art• al~ socialisfs to a certain degree," and v1hat is tl1c hon. rnem bcr for \1\"" arrego' :i degree? He " 'nt to nationalise the rabbits. That is the c:dcnt of his socialism-beccmse it affects petsonal interest" The hon. 1nmnber tried to ridicule the proposal to give a vote to women­he was co•1sidering ·whether he was justified iL cxt,•nding thP franchise to women or not. iVhat righL has he to · 1.y whcthe,- the franchise should lw extc•mlcd or not to won· c•n? A \\'Oman n1ight say: ''Oh. I have not made up n1y mind ""~." hctlh~r the hon. mcmbpr for \Var-

shall have a vote or not." The posihon ie snm<.. I am very pleased that the Go­\·crnnwnt haY(' bron.rrht -in this Bill extending the franchisP. for it '.\·ill be the moans of doing a' ay IYith clae.s k:6-lation. and I am totally U!!alnst dn~~ lr!:;islation. \Vo want to lay a

- fomvlation st.cne-to haYe equal rights PHJttcr--and do a\vav with class le:;is­

la.tinn. I lwlie,-e in an equ~l adult franchise. Th0 late> .A ttorncv-Genera], when he was spt>akmg on this st.Zbjcct, said that he had not maclc un his mind on thP matter yet, and he tall:;:{•d ~hnut \YOmPn going to the booths, ,, hPr<', perhaps, there might be a lot of drunken nten; but anyone who witnessed the

2c1G .Address zn Repf.y. [ASSEMBLY.] .Address in Rep~y.

last federal election must admit that there was ncYcr an election in Queensland where there were le~,;s drunken men or less drink consumed. In n1auy CLU:!P~ tho rnen carne off their work, took their wives or sweethearts to the polling­place, voted together, and then went home. In everv wav I think it is desirable that we should h.,ve "this franchise, and, personally, I cgu hope that we will never have the " better half" in politir•1 until the '"better half" goes v.•ith U3 to the ballot-box. Kow. several nar.:1es l1avc bcPn bandied about this Charnber d11ring this dobat(', and onp n1an's name is Jones. The hon. member for I,Yarrego has j Llst mentioned that he was associated with him one~- I An honourable member: He met him.] J do 'not know to what extent he was a:.~"mciated with him. Ho rr~a•r have been a pc'rsonal friend of his, and i do not kno\v w·hethcr that is any reco1nrnendation for Jones. [An honourable In em bcr: "fhat vvas not known to the GoY( enrnent. J I y,hink that if that had be8n known to the G-oYcrnmcnt, it v ould haTe oavcd a good deal of rhscussion in this House; I clo nnt know that the Govunment would have appointed him if they had known that. No one hcaecl :tbont ,J ones until it bccan1e a politi~ml qncstiou. I rcrllc!nbf'r that l\lark Twain said in ono of his works that he nrvcr knnw he Wd'l a hors" thief until he stood for an election. \V c have hearrl u good 1nany things aboGt Joncs that \VC never knc1.v until he got this appointment, ancl no one else over klww them. I am not at all a porsonal friend of Jonr , but I hL.ve hoard that b~ has some very good recornmcnrlations from good firrns in thjs trnvn, notably Carcw. Gatdine~. and Billing­ton: but all these thiqgs have been raked up for politi,_·al pu rpose:'l. Ev,·n if the Govcrn­~ent n1ad~~ a 1nistakc in this appoint1nont, that IS no argtnncnt. agaiast political refonn or ag'"inst the Governor'·; Spc·ech. Then Dr. :\Iax'''ell's name has been mentioned. I,V c ,_,·ere told by tlw late Govomment and their support<•rs that h" was a splendid man-a grand fellow. and that he was cheap at £!3,000--that you could not beat him; but since the prc~scnt GoYcrnment haYc come along, he has been given about double the v.:ork he had to_ do before, and now the Opposi­tiOn_ are crymg out a bout it, although he IS getting t1lf' smne salarv as before. Those arc the thin<Ss the coun'try wants to htvv(; expla.ined. I-iow was it that vvith a ch"''fi" of G WC'rmJwnt Dr. jyiaxwell changed the colour of his skin? _How does it happen that hon. members opposite find fault with his appomtmcnt? Simply because he has got an 11!( _'c'ase of \Vork without any increase in pav. Do hon. members opposite think that he is 'a blackleg, or that he is doing too much for his mon0.Y 't If so, Jet them speak out and sav so pl~i_n!Y· I think t~e Government were rigl~t in utllmng the sc•rnccs of Dr. J}faxwell as they ha,v:' done, a!ld not allowing his talents to be buned 111 the ground. Of course the present Government did not bring Dr. :!i1axwoll here. they clid not fix his pay-the only thing they did was to :tsk him to do more work for his money, ancl then thc>y are growled at. JYfr. Brennan 1s another man about whom there has been a great deal of talk. When the late Go­vemment werE' in power I often heard from their supportc>rs that he was a good man. He has hcen pointPd out to persons in the streets of Gympic. ''Do you see that man?" a person would bP ask~ d. "Ye,," was the reply. Then he would he told: " That is Mr Brennan of the Audit Dep:trtment, the. smartest man in the Government emplov." He caught an embezzler in Gympie. Th.at man should

have been caught sooner, but as soon as Mr. Brennan came he was caught. vVhen the Income Tax Department was established the late Government ca"t about for a smart man for tbat department, and whom did they send there? They did not send '\'[r. Francis, whom the hon. member for \Yarrcgo this evening recommended as a suitable peroon for inspec­tor of the public service, but they sent Mr. Brormau. Evidently they considered lw wa, not a bad man. The-n the present GoYernment wanted son10 fairly srnart n1an to do verv im­portant work, nnd, having the reco1Dn1C11da­tion of their predecessors, they appointed Y[r. BrennarL I want to kno-., from members of the Opposition how is it that this f2reat falling av. ay on the part of Brennan came about dur­ing the time which elapsed from the elate of his appointment to the Income Tax Department and his appointment as a member of the Public Service Inquiry Board? How is it that he deteriorated in that short space of time I hope that some hQn. member on the other will endeavour to enlighten us upon point3. \Yith regard to the progranune mitted to the House bv the Government, an1 of opiniou that it~ is a desirable one. and I rJhould like to see the whole of it placed 011 the statute-book Such le .islation as jg he n• proposed would be for the best

of ~.~ · wenslnacl. I believe in a broad and iu as.:>in1ilating our franchise

franchise, which will dn awav deal of hoartburning in ctHlncC­

ti() 1 this nutHer. _.At the prc-ent ti1ne thPI'P a!'P ditfwult.ic.-! ob,tructio-ns, and ob­stacles in the way of men, especially those in nu'- ide rlictricts, gotti11g on the rol( and thev CClilSt pwntly clo not fee•! Yery kindly toward's the other sectio11 of tho communitv who have. cto it wc,re. the best of them, and ;,ho deprive them of what th0y cousiclcr their rights. As a, .,lP~ 'Lcr rcprct:?nting a n1ining constituency, I arn r>leasE·d to hear that, taken as a whole, thC'rf' ~1a~ 1w<'n an incrE.'aso in the production of miw_'rals during tho past twelve months and during di!o two or three years. At the r:;a1n0 tiLw are a great n1any unen1ployed iu eonut ctii)ll v,.rith raining at the present time, aJ,d I a.m satisfied that some means could be devisccl for opening np the mining re.:.:,ources of tlw ;--Jtal(' by admitting the '"Torking 1Y1incr to place:> \Vh( re he is now debarred fron1 l'llt-~~rinrr. I a1n pk"lSf'd to find an intintation in thn to the effect that it is the inten-tion of Govennncnt to introduce a. Bill • ,_·c;yidiHg- for n1ining- on priYate propert,v. From .m~' nvvn cxpcrit'nce I know that thoro n.re teaci' of mineral land held as heehold or c a mineral lease. from both of which thc' pro~r('ctor and thP minf'r arc excluded, and I i hin k \Yt: should ha Ye legislation ou sirni­la:.· lines to thai· '"·hlch ('xists iiJ other ~tates, uudl~r \Yhich rnincrs are pcrn1ittcd to c·ntl'r t.ho·:" lands and mine for precious metal \Vithout doing injuslicP to the present ovvnors. It is not a wise thing that anybody should be in the position to act as the do,; in the manger. ancl keep those rich lands from being utilised. There is no industrv which has done more to pro1note BcttlcmPnt 'in Australia than the min­ing indnst.ry. The GoYernment hav8 often b0en recommended by 1nining- members to orcct s1naJ1 crushing batteries in places \vhere there are iarge quantities of low-grade ore. v•·hich it might not pay a private company to "ork. By that moans wo should ha.-e those ore-s workPrl. and a .field for employment would l'e opened up. vVith regard to mine inspec­tion, w hi eh is a!-,o promised in the Speech, it would be a very good thing, not only for the working miner but also for the employer. if WC'

Address in Repl,y. [2 JUNE.] Address in Reply. 247

had efficient inspection tu ensure the proper ,·ontilation of mines and the establishment of good sanitary conditions. \Vhere men have to work in bad air, not only is it an injury to their health, but they arc not able to do the sanw work as th0y c -.~ulc.l under better sanitary couclitions, so that it is to the advantage of the ompioycr as well as the miner that these mat,tcrs c,hould rcce>in' prop~r attention. A school of mines has also 1 ecn referred to. I know they have been successful at Charters Towers and in G::c·mpie, and, although it has been struo;gling along in Gyn1pio and is doing fairly well, a little assistance from the Govern· ment will greatly assist them. 'fhere is a ntunber of yonng Inen at Cympie, ~ewe of

them in fairly good positions, and 111 p.m.] working miners, who take ad·

Y<ltlUlg'e of the school of mines there and attend the classes. Although I re· gret to say that some speak disparagingly of scientific knowledp·e, when it is combined with practical knowledge the best results are attained, and if the Government will assist the schools of mines and keep them going it will be for the best interest of the State. An­other thing connected with mining· is the Ex· plosives BilL I know from practical experi. ence, and it has been pointed out on several occasions, the _ reat necessity there is for legis­lation to secure the keeping of explosivec in a safe condition. Some people are very careless, and in fact reclde"s, in the storage of explo­siYes, and something should be done to secure greater safety. I am also glad to see that a \Vorkrnen's Compensation Bill is included in the proposed legislation. In (~ueousland we arc behind the times as regards an Act of this kind. In England thev have had a \Vorkmcn's Corn. pens tiou Act for five or six years, and they have u1n.dP some an1endmcnts extending its operations. In :South Australia they have an Act of that kind also. These Acts work very fairly, and without any undue interference with the employer. I think it is only fair that ell!p!oycrs should participate in some of the risks of trade, and it is simply extending the principle of trade risk to employees. We kno· that according Jo the law of averages a certain uuml•er of accidents will h<tppcn, and some provision has to be n1ade to insure against them. A merchant who has larg;e storehouses, or sl1ips going to se,""~,, tc,kcs th~._~ precaution to see that a cert >.in amount of the value is covered by iDsurance. because it is known by experience that a pcrc.:ntagc of accidents will happen to ships. and that warehouses 1nay cou. to g-ril'f by f1ro or ·)thcr causes. Trade risk has bccorne a p~~rt of inturance, and that insurancP is t.' ken )nto acconnt and 1nade part of tho working expenses. In the same way it is well knovn that a certain number of men working in a mine or a factory will meet with accidents, and it is only fair that the industry should cov "' ;;ome of the expE·nscs connected with such accidents. The legislation in Eng­land and other places has proved very satis. factory indeed, ancl I hope to see a fair mea­sure carried th1 :mgh this session. At the present time the law is very uncertain and un· satisfactory. Under the common law, or the Employers' Liability Act, if there are any claims made for compensation, a lot of ex. pense is incurred in case of litigation. I think if we had an Act like this it would be beneficial to the employer and the working n1an. A g1·e::tt many cases come undc•r mv ob5,crvation whc-~rc accidents havo happened' without a moment's notic,;,, and there is nothing to support those depending on the

workmen. Therefore I think it is only fair that som<" proYision should be made to meet such case,. Some years ago, l\1r. Fisher, at that time one of the members for Gympie, brought in a Bill on these lines, and I also took the matter iu hand. The late Government also promised a measure on those lines, b_ut I am ,;orry to say that the amendments whwh were sought to be made in it rendered it useless, and it was thrown into the waste-paper basket. It was not a 'Working Men's Compensation Act at all, but simply an amendment of the Ern· players' Liability Act. The repurchase of l'stE .. tes j~ tnentioncd in the Speech, and I am pleased to see that the_ Government are using eaution with regard to It, bc~cause the question "' '''.'S if "hey pa:· too much for thc,e estatc.s,

too high a price is put upon the land, w1}1 lJc possible for the selectors to meet their

iiabilitws. Tlo.cy will ha,·o to pay_ back thiS 1nuney~ a,nd it~ a:Ppears ~o me that 1n a great m cas''S the burden IS more than they arc a~JlP bea.r. If thcv have a few good season& t~-l<-'V will be a blc tO pay off their liabilities, but' if a bad sea3on comes they will not :Jo lt')lo to h ·'P 011- I think that phase should be considered, and that the Government should movr> vcrv slowly in this matter. I Pm very t~le<t"Pd ~ tha,t. i he GP\'err1mf-mt 1nt\re intitn:-1ted their intention of ,dopting as much a.s p!)ssihl!' the betrerruent principle in connec, tion with the buildin:.~ of raihuys. Th~t '' -ver~~ good principl<-", and if it hn.d ;mly bec_n rtdopted wht-m we fir"lt ~ nnmenced rarl \",·ay _con­struction in QuePm.,Jand, we wonl<l not tw..vB : e~n in the paRR ·we ~q·e 110\V v. ith rf'.gal'd to ou.r ra11-ways. In NtW Zeahr,d atyne t1me the railw~y~ rlid not pa,-, ju.-;t a-; \1 A fJnd th: rr;t not _pay1!1g here, and they alJT>O)UtPd a COll11IllF~i_l0ll tO 1nqu1.re into the nltlttPr, and the report of the conltnlS­einn was th·,,t every £1 'pent in bnildin:; r"ilways had incre .. secl land valueil to the extent of £2. Supposing at the time we borrowed the£10,000,000 loan for thP- construction of public work:-:) the principh' had been adopted of collecl ing some pPrtion of the incrPafll rl Yalue of the land to ao tO'"ards poying for che coot of the construction of the r~~i.lways ~ .. hirh bad given that enhancecl vahv to the land, those lines would have been pretty well fn·e of that loan mOTIP.V bv no\v .. And it- is not on'y country landE that ;re ~ncrear- d in v:;llue- by the cnn_.;trnction of r.:ilv;,ayl4. City land." are also increased in Yalue hv becmning tho eco11omic Ut'nrreH of tl.1ese public highwayR. All the railway" 1 hat Cdllre in Bri:-:ba.ne h~ve f-lWl'ln,;u:-:1 v ntcrwtR, d the h1nd valuet' ber0. It vvill b~- a stcr• i;l the n::_,·ht direc~ tinn if 1he (}overnn1ent lr,i late thiA ~ysten1 e'r~n nuw. I saw l;y ·1 p;:_ppr the othnr day tha~. it is proposed to _n1a,ke a ra.ilwHy ~-onlt~wh.ere nt_) 1n th~ D<llby di,tnct to a pLce ea!led ,.Jmda }flll, '~nn a 1 estimate wns p:i\'f-'11 th;-J.,t:. thel't' •..vas ~·:lnetlnng· like 30 000 ncreR of Crown bnds there, and that this ra~lway would inc1 \_a"e thP value of that lnnr\ by over 30 Per c ·nt., an,\ that ~h:lt. incrp:1~ed value woulo amount tn £2il 000 or £30,000. That value would not be created ~yit h' .lJt r he 1 ail wHy, ,Lnd it is a good business p1 illeip1.e. that that. incrr>~!SPd value ,honld g-n to the cn·.ht of the ra1l wa? and h"lp to wipe ;,ff th" lnnn rnotH'Y Rpent in buildit~g the line. If that principle h.·d lwen aoopted m connection with the lines lmill m1' of the £10,000,000 loan, we wnuld have been in a, splendid P' sit! on to·.day. _ TL:re w~mld h,~ve been no nectssJty fnr 1mposmg; b1gh fre~ghts. ! he irnp=~sition of high freh.:ht:-; hamperR Indu . ..;.tnes, Bnd it would have been far better fnr the people set tied on the land if this prinetphl had been in operation all al11Pg, fts the amount collected on, account of the incre:1sed value of the land W'Ju!d

248 [ASSEMBLY.] Addnss in Repl;y.

have obviated the necessity for charging high >rates and freights. It is not tuo late to adopt the principle now. I acknowledgll the ditticul­ties the pre~ent G1)vernn1ent a.re in in having to pull the country out of the slough of despond into which it has falien. Like Christian, it has a heavy burden on its back, and it is sunk tlmost to the neck, and, if the Government cannot pull it out and se'c it on the right roJd, with its face towards the Delectable l\fountains, still in doing this they will be takin~ a step in the right direction, and I congratulat; them on it. In C'nmection with this <]llestion of the better­ment principle, and bearing akl upon the re­purchase of estatPs, I read m the p:tpc>rs where an e:;;tate na1ned VVooloogfl, in tbe \Vide Bay district, has been offered to the Government. It C<mnot be called agricultural country. It is well watered, has a nice aspect and fin<e scer,ery, out at the same time it is only dairy land. One of the inducements ireld out to the Gove_n­ment to purchase the estate is that it has a rail­way running through it, and therc> are three rail­way Htatiunti on it. Of cour.se the Government are asked to g1ve a bigger prie J because of the pre~-;ence of the railway and railway stations, and that is one e:;.::trnple of our general position at the present ttrnE'. The Government borrow tnoney to build railways anri rail way stations, which incre>ase the value of the land. Then the landowner.-5 corne along and want the Govern­ment tn give them the value which the l•md has been given by the construe~ ion of the ra,ilwavs and stations. J::I~>W can any country prust;er under r<uch cond1twns? This is the country tbat we ·n~ told has been run by busine~s n1Pn, and now .'·ocia.lists are going to run it aground. ,y ould men run their ovvn hu,;ineR-;eR o11line:, like that? Would they spend moue:~ in in1prnving a man's property, and then bny his property Hncl pay hinr f,r the increased value brought ab,iut by th~~ ..... e improvements? There i~, no comtnon sense in the way the Co>tmtry has been run in the past. It has pract1caliy be-n 1un for a few privileged individuals. ~Ioney ha-; b.,en b1,rrt1Wed and expended for •he bendit of" few. Clas.; legisLction <•f the wore: kind. A snmblous state of affairs! X~nv, be< dl~e men C·'ll1e intn p(HVE:T who h<t\8 a fajrer idea of the rights and wrongs of thinv._.", ''To aq:'l tnld r-.hat they art~ go ins tu do all ROrt~ of thing::, and that the people sho11ld be frightf--IH'd 11f Lht-UL But the penp1e wili. nnt be fright ·n·-d of ; hem. Tile pt'l)ple are beginning to t,hjn,-:s in r-heir pl'OfJer li ·ht. TltH very same tha.c 1 an1 talking alvmt the hon. tnernber for Btl\H:·.n •vaN telling us about last uigh~ in connection "vith ;-! e sng ,r mill::', where the G •Vt~rnnh .. ut lll<lll•"\' went. tu ii!Crf'<L~R the value ~lf tht.~ suga,r l.u!~,-; ~'no.rmous 1 y t.hr.1ugh the build­Hlg nt Cc>ntral rrnll::;. The G•l\'ernntf-nt ail·nv~d tlJar, llluney to g" into the p~~cketR of a f,_,w of thr-ir. 1!\Vll friPnd.:, a11rl then they come down on ~tw poor unfurtunat~-" fan1w• s who h:"tn~ te.};~_'U UJI tl11~ nngar lan~~~. and trv to get it lmck fron1 thPm, vvhile t hP V a:uo\v the o· het' fpJlow t1: get aw.~y with tr e s\vag. Tftt're is no ~en.::;e ·of ju.;L,__"1 in it. The hon. merub, ... r for Bnwf·n to1d u-< ]n,:..;t ni ... ht nhout the at1oeiouN atticles nf n~;::;l;t·ia.tion dr~1wn up by r.he Ia;vye~s t0 get at t]H~~H_: peoplf'. Those are only a r.e\~ l•,~ta?c~s: t! t ;t L tll;u.; · 1 rt.te th'-' gPneral systen1, an·l r could g1vu hnnnr~d~ of others where the gen- rnl public hnve been robbed, a~ it were, for th"" henetit of thP- fe\V. And chos'~ sa1ne people con1e here and talk abnut .Jonp,: and .... ;c~y h(• went a\v.~y ~vithnut parlng hi" debts.! P.oh;{b1y tl11·se dt-'hi do not amonnt to rnor~-" th-nJ f~200, or £JOO, or £1~000 at the out·· id<·; and yet. thet ~_~are n1en on the other side who l1a\e n lo.wed the indnstri~·ns hard-v.'urking lllf'n of thi-. c"nntry to hA rolJbed to the Pxtent of £30,000,000, or £±0,000,000

wit.hiu the last twenty years. I am g-lad the eyes of the country are being- opened, nnd that things are going to ilnprove. And tho~e on the other side think the people are taking in nJJ tlwir chaff. It is more likely that they will "wink the other eye." I am pleased to find that tbP Government are going to amend the Ag-ricultural Bank Act. 'l'bat Act was P'"sed by the late GoF"rnrnent, but it was only a wake-bHlieve, and gave no relief to the farmers who were in the hande of the money-lenders, which is the basis of this legislation in the other State~. Kot only rs tlote Act bad, but the admini:;tration of it is bad, especially about the valuation. If a man wants to borrow £20 or £~0, he has to ~end .£3 for the valuation. I will give an insh1nce of a. case that came under my O\Vtl noticl'. _._:\._t Gy1npit>, a man I know well~a poor man v.dth a large family­made an application to' he Agricultural Bank for a ::-:Inalll,,an. He niar,a ... ::;rd to raise the .£3 surne­how or another, ~1nd sent in his application. After \vaiting ::t considerable timt>, hA wrote down and asked if there w>ts any charred of getting the money. The reply was that he could not get the £50 he wanted. He then applied for the return of his £3, and was told he could not get it. That was under the administration of the late Government. [Mr. PAGE'f: ~o; the bank is administered by trtH<tees.] That \\as not in the Act, but in the re•'ulations issued by the late Government. In N~w Zealand, the valuation fee is only 10'. for getting- .£100, and it increases by a graduated scale up tu £2 2''· Here we paosed a bad Act, ,md the regulations were ten times worse. I hope that in amending the Act, it will be mr;ddled 011 1 he Victorian Act, unrler which a farn:cr, if he h::-ts lJOrrowed 1110IWY frorr1 a financia.l institution a..t R or 10 ptr cent., c1n obt::~in a loan at() per cent. interest and red•mption for thirty­one and a-half years. Hundreds have avaihd themHJives of tha• Act, have lifted their mort­gage~, anr1 rednced their iiJtert-st bill hy one­half. Thev were en,.bled to gd out of the hands of tl~e BJO,ley-1ender~. It wa.~ R·-Hletbing like that that we· exp< cted, b:~t "e did not get it h·ntll t: e late Gfi\'1-'JDillt·nt. I hoJ•e we :-:h:dl get it frou1 the prttsent Governmf'nt. \Yith n-gard to thP rPcent. retrr·ncbnwnt in the civil servict>, I t.niy kr>!J\,' OI1P ma:1 who w::18 affected by it. thr; l<<te Ir>pector of ;>.Jine,, 1Ir. Yr)·ar. i\lr. Fr.rar~ I undc>rr-;rand, ls ··8\f'tlt.\·-Rix yeal's of age. .r\nytlody 3Cfp1H .. inted ·with rnini.ng kn(~ws how difficult Jt iH to get allont a rrnue. You ha·vetn ditub donu winzP~, atJd (1 \'er rocl{R, and along ~tope~, ;1nd 111' and d(I\Vll 1add.t-rs; in fact a man \Va11t~ to he as active as a native l1ear. That cannot be f::'Xl·€Ctt:>r1 of a umn of St->\'euty-six. It tnav l1e sa.id be can go down the ~haft 111 the Cage, ailCi \V.~ Jk ab..ut \V here thr~Tb is 110 f·b...-truc~ tion. Bnt it i:;: not th~erf' that irwuection is re­qmred ;- imt tie hard and difticul•,. plaCt"S where only a v~·ry acti\·P wan can ge: tl·, nd v here a wan o~ Beventy·six couid nnt, be tn go. In 1hat one in·.,lat:\:P, w!lich i:-; the <H·e I <:-tll1 familiar \vir b, I t;11ll1HltJnd thP pre. Pnt Gnvt::rn­I!Jf'Ilt in tbc ir net.ion. J do nnt '" 'Y; \\·ord r~g.'-linst .1\Ir. Fry,tr, bntsti.] his;{gt:>i~P:nli'rely at.;ain~~ him. Then~ has bren a 1o~ of criticism of the action nf

the Gov·ernm~ nt in Ctmnecr;ion with [11"30 p.nl.] \be mwrHpioyerl. I do 11ot say

t!>C>t tbey wiir he ohle to m lw a gre:1t sucef·:-s of their t--Cheme. The cundition of the une1n1Jloyed j~:_; nne ',f t hf-· mo~t dltticul.t ~~les­tions that havt> to lw L1cHl Hl ~~11 c1v1 J:-ed ( .~untrit>e, but I think t hiH G<n ernmPllt iN ITJLtldug a g(10d try lo H::·ti]P the C)lw:-.1i<~n. '\Ye ;l_%vP :.ny anwunt of idlt-; }HlH1 and 1dlf' J!''oplP, a11d 1t ·wa11ts orgcmi".atil·ll to brillg tht' icile land and the idle people together. I wa~ in the Burnett rlist• ict recently) where Aorne of those men are \Vork111g,

Add1·ess in Reply. [2 JUNE.] Address in Repl_y. 249

.1nd I made inquiries as to how they were doing. I 1nn--t say that a." far as nty obRervation went they were making a try to do the right thing. l 111ade inq uirH: '~' frcnn thf~ surrounding settL-•rs, and their te,timony was that the roads which were being made would b, suitable fur the dis· trict, they could see nor.hing wrong with the clearing that was going on, and that the Govern~ ment would get their money back. ()f course they may not get it back for " few y••ar~, but still the value of the work is there. I do not believe tho~e lll-'11 are going to n1ake fortunes, or accurnulatP banking accounts, but this i~ srnne­thing to keep them going until they eau come acro "'l other work. 81>111e nf thrse men have been looking round with the intention of ,ettlmg down on this land, and one in particular said to me that if he could get any sort of a show he would take up a selectim,, work on it,_ and do a little timber·ge•ting, and he might manqge to knock out a living. It has been suggested, and I tnight rr1ention it here, that perhaps the Government could see their way to making a dam or sinking a well in the district, which would furl her improve t!teir estate. I think the Government are really to be corn· mended for trying to do their best in this matter. The question of immigration, and the decrease in our popu 1&.t]on, is a Yerv serious rnaUer and it is admitted that the solution of our diflic~lties is not going to come until we get a lot more population. It does appear to me to be some­what contradictory to make that assertion while the pe 'ple who are here have not enough work to <lo. It is contended by some that it is the people who a<e to come here who will find work for the people wb., are here, but I do not know how that will work out. I admit there ic~ a diflicultv in the matter. Many schools of thought ha\•e set up different theories to account for our povertv. At one time it was laid down by one of the lead­ing schools of thonght that thPre were too rnany people in the world--that population wa,s pn"'~­sing agaimt sub-istence, and th"'t there was no provision made at K "tu re's table for all the pPuple there w,~re in the W<Jdd. Tba•. idea atJpear." tn have been explod.ed, and w~; <:tre now told th •.t there are not enough people to eat all the good ~:hin,.;s that art> produced, anrl. that we are suffering frmn oYer-production. The difficnltv appnrs to be to find the man who will giv,~ us a solution of our difficulties. I have re<!d a gr)ori rnan ~, work; on thi-. question ; hut whetlwr a :ountry h'-" too many people in it, or whether 1t has not enougf1, i~ an open quPs­ti~m. There i.-.: no country which has to1) much population if the opportunitv is only given to the masse' to work, bat the difficulty seem' to be th 1t weal h E<et~ into the hands of a few, and th~ rn''""',s are left to 'cralll hle for the balance. I_ren1ernbl~r 1uany ye,~rs nuo reading a book I~\ HS glVHt a:-; a, pres,..nt-l{ohinson Crnsoe, written by De Foe. It iR r<·3lly a w><rk on political econm11y, a_nrl. Du Fo~~ h~:d ttJ go to gaol for the pnnc1p e ~ he f?nunciated. Rnbinsnn Crusoe vva.s on an hdand all to himself ~nri HLn:cing \Vi!h nothing hut a wreck, he' after a ht.tle wlule prudnerd l~vervthin~ he wanted. But by and hy thre Englis"hmer; came to the isl"nd and, after lookine; round awhile they said "This island belongs to us, and yen~ wili hav~ to give ns half of what you prod nee for the right to liYe here." That island bec:mw from th»t time ovrerpopulated with RobinHon Crusoeand the three Englislnuen on it. There was not room for all of them. All Robinson could get was just what barely kept him ali VP; there were oDly three other fellows there, and he had to do all the work to support the other three. That was

the position there, and that is the position in Queensland to-day; that is the posi­tion all over the civilised world to-day. Labour has to give up ev<-rytbing for a bare living; and, no rnatter h1>W 11!\V thP standard of living is, if a rnan c n live on one meal a day, he has to live nu it and give the rest to the tnan who owns the rr1e 1.llS 11f production. That is the p<'sition, and this bland of Austm1ia is not over-populated; hut the only thing is that the lands of the country do nnt bt-lOnl! to the inhabitant,; thereof. While I am on this ques­tion, I may say that the other <hy I wa' in a district where I saw an abundance nf corn, grapes, pumpkins, and ever1 thing else th"'t could be grown there ; cOin could he bought for 7d. or Sd. a bushel-any amount of it; and the grass was sn abundant that a man could hardly ride through it, and the people there did not know what to du with it. Kow, these arc• times of plenty, hut times of famine will come. Kow, in Canada, they make pro,ision fqr the live months of winter, and in the old cmmtry they do something the ::<arne. Of cour:~e we have not as severe a winter here as they have there, but we have peri,dical droughts; we bave y<;ars of plenty and yeaf' of famine, and we should make provi,ion Juring the years of plenty for the years of famine. 1 think that the Gov<crument could rln something in this marter. \Vith regard to Egypt, I have read th;ct th<-'Y had seven years of plenty and years of famine followed: but they had a man at the head of the Gcnernment there who 1nade provi.,ion for the yt-ars uf famine-he got hi" pe<)p!e to builrl stnrehuuses in which to put the corn, and when the famine came there was "corn in J;;gypt." vVhat we want is a ,Josrph to build storehouses in which to place the surplus of years of vlenty to provide for yeai"' of famine. Wem''Y not be able to S.lYe all stock in such tiweR, l ut we could save :-;nme stud stock, and they h><ve none something in the direc­tion l have iudicated in Amel'ic;;, called grain elevators. \\'e could get enough galv.m1seo iron to bulld tanks to st;ore eo,·n in the tnnt·.s of plenty, and keep it, for years of Lnuine. I do not know ho·v much it wc,uld ccst to make a sntlicient number of these tctnk;, which ,ch,uld he built near railwayf-1. The GovPrntnPnt ha~ done ~mne­thing in thi~ direction in build in~ sheds at War­wiek and I{illarnPy ; but we want to ~ee the principle extendeci, and 1 think this would pay, .b.r the 11orrual condition of things in Australia is year:-; of rlrought and ye:1rR of pl~nty; and if 1 he ;ru,ney that the late Government spent on the nc.w "Lands Utlice and on the tank c.:.nginPs had be· n dl-VOted V) this work, such store.bm.IsP.- wou~.d hold sufficiPnt uroducts to tierl. us over tlve or six~ ear~ of drought. I bave

orne further n·mark"' to THakP, but l do not ~,ovish to detain hon. membt-n,, and when tht~ J:!.....,inancial Statement C011J{>S on I SfJall have a few more wordo to 'ay. I have nnt d.-alt with one-tenth of tht- rnaJa~1mi11istration which has occurrt"d in pest yearo; but we "hould try and put things right, and l t.him< the present G"Yernment ohould gHt ever~' supp1lrt in their tndeavour to attain t,h)t ,:.md-t" a .. sist us out of the "Slough of De:-:;pnnd" which past malad•nini..,tration and bad laws have put us into. [Honourable mem· bero : Hear, bear ~] -

Mr. MARTIN (Bu·rrum): I beg to move the adjournment of the debttte.

Question put and passed ; and the resumption of the rlt·bate was made an Order of the Day for to-Inorrow.

The House adj•mrned at ten minutes to 12 o'clock.