Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 1930

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

[1:2 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 931

FRIDAY, 12 SEPTEitCBER, 1930.

The SPE.\KER (Hon. C. Tnylor, 11 indsor) tl)c•k the clnir at 10.30 ~1.nt.

('UESTIO:'\S. PREFEnE::-;cE ~oR EJ.rrr.o::J. .2-:.;r .\T \n.\TTOlRS FOR

E:\ll'LOYELS OF REDB\Xc ~IEAT\YORKS,

1. r he Parli

n:n the Rcdbank

(Jios!'VOO 7) ackcd the

i'w rntification f._l_eatworks Pnr­

T~''-Ult ;1; the clo~urc of n1ea hYod~ -:; ?

·• 2. T·1 such <:U!_ PY'·n~-. y,·!ll hP L:qucq: t1;c \.b:;Hoirs Board, \Yhcn constitub"!d, to give proff'n'IH'f iu thP rnnt· .•r of_ l'·uploy-nwr;.t to tlw a.t. thP Redbank nl:._"lL-·.orks "\Yh.J. 11u fault. of theirs, will 'ue dcpriYcd cf t h('ir 11~.-d:h )Od ar Hcd.bard.::: in <'UU· :·r1U":H e of the p: sagn of the Bill., "

T<lc PR E'.; p;:n (Ho:L .\. l•:. :\Ion(). _tubiu~.J rrplicd-

Bn:ll'd will not 0 f G OYC'rllD1Cllt;

J', c·of!Jlrl:'~ldation that ra i_ io_l hP to anv

•c depriYecl 'J£ r:xisting crnployrncnt through the e•' hli::hment uf the ab3.~toir."

Corro:\ ~-1--~ED I~r.FORTETl lXTO ( ~·r:T-~SLAXD, 1922-1U'i.

::r .·r~ '922 to \-ru·1f'ti' .·?"

pion) a de d the

Thn SE( (Ho". IL

.' RY FOH IGHICCLTURE . \Yalk<'r~ ('ooroo.·u) rc·pli0d~

'' }[1"22. 5 0n·t.; 1923. 6~ ions 192-L 1! ton ; 1925. 4 rwt. ; lG26. 559 ; and 1927. 4.602 tou;. I'n.r, iculars of all tho -c~ri ·ti. arc rut avail~blc_ but a1nonp-~t i ho.-c import·•d wcr<'·---Lo·w St '1'. Light-nin~ Exp! \Yl bbt)l' ~9, Hart-vi1k

1

D0li'a-t~·pl:' Ta ;g-ul~. Cambodia. (\JJ..-.:'T

1S Super lJgrrnda, and

Tuxt.la."

HEPORT BY ACTUARY BRE11KEll 0!. R\ILWAY SUPERA:ll\UATIOK SCHEME.

Mr. WIKSTA~LEY ((Jner nton\. for Mr. COOPER (!Jrcm.er), asked the Secretary for Railways-

" Will he iav upon the table of the 1-Iouse a report ~by :l\-11·. 1\ctuary Bren1ner, 1.":herein he reported upon a superannua­tion srhcme £or raihva.; mnployecs upon a £10,000 basis and a £50,000 basis?"

The SECRETJ .. RY FOR RATLW~\YS (Hon. Godfrcy Morgan, Jlurilla) replied-

" The hon. member mav inspect the report at the office of the UCornrrlj~sioner for Raihrays."

GovERN:iiENT E~rPLOYFES, SALARIES, AND \VAGE~.

Nir. DASH (31undinrtlmrra), for Mr. COOPER· (Brcmer): I desire to ask the Premier if he has an answer to the follow­ing quec;.ion addressed to him by the hon. member for Brcmcr on 16th July last:-

" \Yill he furnish a statement giving tho tot d number of persons in Govern­meHt emplo0rnent (including railway cmployc,~s under all headings), and the tota 1 'Llaries and wag·; paid a.; at 30th June. 1930 ?"

The PREMIER (Hon. A. E. :11oore, Au7Ji(ffl',) rcpli~cl~

of [I An~~t1t Sahnies or

ccs. \V ages per annum.

------------'----~·----

] ~-" ~313,39~,002

137 40,503

80

4

-tu2 11:1 UJ9

7

87 274

20,12G

988

175,188 36,1:53

255,21() 3,001

~2,647 c_!:Q,(/0

.J.,G+H,0:32 ~:· J,~so

17 .ClO

"(1\0TE.-The figlLCS of £4,6~9.032 and of £483.280 as tho amounts payabl· from revenue aud loan (other than cn1struc~ tion) rospcctivoly for railways include not on1y the per annun1 Tatcs of ~al- nes ard wag ·s as at 30th June, 1930, but' also C<)rt tin a\vard ._dlo-..Tances. In the case nf revenue these allowances would amount to appr•1ximately £270,000, and in the cnso of loan (other than conotruction) to approximately £45,000.)"

i)32 [ASSEMBLY.] Ratojlcation, E!c,, Bill.

covEn~.;-:.lEXT EMPLoYEEs rArD r-RoM LoAN FUND.

M·r. DASH (Mvndingburra): I desire to ask the Premier if he has an answer to the following question which I addr,e·.cd to him on 17th July last:-

" ·what is the number of Government employet:d paid h·orn Loan l~unds, and the total aggregate 1-vages pa1d to same -(a) as at 30th June, 1929; (b) as at 30th June, 1930?"

The PREi\HER (Hou. A. E. 11oore, .lubi,;ny) replied-

As at 30th June, 1929

As at 30th Jnne, 1930

Total i :X 0 • of

11 aggregate

1 Ent~

l

i' Jlloyces. 1

\Yages paid. ---

£ 4,615 1,475,182

'- (NOTE.---The rcggrc~atc wag-·s paid include, in the case of the ruilwa.ys, not only the per annum ran•,, of salarFs a~d vvages as at 30th Jun0. but nlso certain award allotYa.nc•~c;;.) "

PAPER.

The following paper \\'u3 laid on the table:-

Return of all n1oncy.::; advanced or ex~ peuded tmder "The Mining 11achin­cry AdYancos Act of 1906."

LA~D TAX ACT ATIIEND:I.IE~T l3ILL.

rr:t-rrRD READIXG.

The TR~ASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, 1Fynnum) · 1 be;~ to n10Ye-

" That the Bill be now read a third tim-=-."

Que ,tion put and pas~cd.

ABATTOIRS AGREE"'fENT RATIFICA­TIO:i\' AND 1\lEAT I:\'DUSTRY BILL.

INITIATIO"S" IN COM~.IITTEE.

(.'Jfr. Ilobu·ts, East 'l'OJi·'OOrnbrr, in t'he chair.)

The I'REMIEH (I-Ion. A. E. Moore, A. ub:gny): I beg to move-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to appr'l\·e, ratifv. and con­finn an agrC'ClTlCut tJ.1acl'.~ betWE'Pn th~ Honourable Arthur Edw,ud Moore. Pre­mier and Chief Secretary of the State of Queensland, for and on behalf of t.hJ Government of Queensland, and Swift Australian Company Limited, relating to the purchase of abattoirs in th;_, city of Brisbane; to provide for tho constitu­tion of .. ' Meat Industry Board having for its object th0 maintenance nnd con­trol of the said abattoirs, ;nd further powers and authorities regarding the rnoat industry; and for other purp03(s.''

Tho first part of this Bill provides for the ratification of the agreement for tho purchase of tho mcntworks. I do not \nmt to go into the full details of the Bill, but I want to gi~:e hon. n1ernbcr3 the information which it

[Tion. A.. E. Jloore.

i3 necessary for them to have at this stage. The agreement provides that the Govern­ment shall take over tho buildings, plant, and machinery for the sum of £490,00C, which will include structural alterations '1mounting to £103,000 odd and £4.WO odd for new refrigerating n1achinery that is neces­sary. The undertaking is not to be token over by the Government or handed over to the ]\,fe'lt Industry Board until all the alterations have been carried out.

:i\1r. TI.\NLON: \Vi!! all tlw ma0hin0ry be rPYlC\YC'd?

The PREHIER: The slrucrurc.l alterations a:.a tho machinerv will be spc0ificd in th.l :_:greeinent, anr1 \Yill be ayuiLlbL for ,_,vcry­l!ody to SC".

:Hr. \Y. lfoa0\X Smnr The C%t of the nlt~2rations !s iilcluc1Pd in ihe £490.000 ·:

The PHT,;~nER: y,.s. The nndcttaking wjll be hrrrHlf'd OYer to tho GovE'rnrncnt afb._'l' the ~ary altcra6ons--structural and othcrwi (;C'('H carried OUt at an indu-·ive cod of £490,000.

The GoYcl'nmcHt do not rtn:vthing in cash to1vards tho purchase PaYnwllt \Yill bl~ ea rrit'tl out bv 11ll .. Lns of ~ix-mCmrhL· debcnhJrPS extend] ng Over a pr:rioJ of twenty vears. The nn1ount of tho h8.H-voarlv deben­ture na~'mt>r:ts will rcn1njn the s;nH' OYer th, \Yholc Period. but it will be ;·ccognis, J th8t,

time on and the amount due for a grent:;r 'vill be

rr'paynlcnt nf prir;c!pal. 1\Ir. \V. FcmG.IX s~IITH: \Yhat is the rate

of i:ntere~t?

ThP PI\E~JIER: rrh0 n1tr~ of ir~t:.:r0·~t i:; 5 per ceni r:rhc S\Yift Cornpany has agreed to c>r,··b·uci :::·dc,vards of a rnost up-to,datn tyr~ for a sun1 not exceeding- £38.000. Thi~ rnattcr is also proYided in the ·~s1C~CD1Pnt.

c,I,-_ \'.'. FonoAx S:\TITH: That will be in addition to !he £-~90,000?

The PRK\TTER: Ye,. The board will ic>ne a .-epardc ''t of debeaturcs in re poet of thjs amount. It has not vPt bu~n ch-,fi11itc1v d<>ciclcd \Yhethe1· tho amoun't \Yi'l b" £38.000. \Ve hrtYe not vet had a deci,irm from the agent~ a· to wh~ethcr thc.v dcsiro the companY to construct the ncccssarv ofiiceA 'l'fhich will be afterwards controlled by HiC l\1cat Boatd, or '"h 'thc-r thev v. ill prefer to coEstruct their own offices.

l\fr. \V. FoRGAX S}riTII: \Yhat about rail­'" ay accom1,1odation?

Th~ PRE:\IIER: Ono more loop is nccos­' e "v. Tho new vRrds wiil be constructed in do<~ pro'=in1itv ·to thn pn•s0nt c1etruckin;:; yards of the Swift Company. and ir will be l!P 2~·-tl.!'Y ro p~1t in one n1orc loop and a third rail to cnahle :ock from the Kyoglc Hailway to be r:.1il('d rjrrht up to tht~ v.cor!:>. Th0 debentnrcs in respect of the expenditure upon th~'- \Yill c1 rry jnttTf'S..L at 6 per cer~t. U1H1 c a C'UlTcncy of ten yerrrs.

::'vir. \Y FOI' ~\X S:\IlTH: "\YlH:tt i"' tllr cnr­rcnr'" 0f the dehc'ntures in respect of the £.7~/J.OOO?

T;l -,-):PT ~,q::~~I\.: rrhry ,;-ill extend OYer a p--Tiod of tvv:' . -Y : c1.rs.

-,fr. Pou.rw1.:: \Yh~r has a separntc ·0t of !Jccn d c:(1cd upon in r0 poet of

j .nr> PHE:\ITER: Th0 Swift C'n;npnnv did not l'PJard the con~il'U('t;on of he -yards as

Abattoir·s Agreement (12 SEPTEMBER.] Ratification, Etc., Bill. 933

part of tlw undertaking it had to sell; but it was prepared to carry out the work. It was something rc;_d]y out:?.ido the operations of the works. but the company \Vas prepared t J nu.'ct the cnnYcntcnf'c of tho GoYernn1ent.

2\h'. \Y. For.r:E S}!l'fH: \Yho will call the l·:nr:crs?

The l'RE1'.1IER: The Swift Company. The \York \vill be subject to :;;upervjslon by ofliz:ers of the Department of Public \York;.

:\Ir. \\'. FORG,\:' S}llTII: How does the rate of interest proposed to be paid to the com­pany ccn1parc: with its aTen:ge diridencls oyer the past six ~vear-?

The PRE~ITER: T ht-.,· no kno,vlcclgc of their c1ivjdcnd:c-.

:Ylr. POLLOCK: Ha Ye they 110t been operat-1ng at a lo:-•..; for smne y ... ~ars?

The PRF.:\IIER: That might bo so. Hon. rnc·rnbr i'S ,~. :ll recognise that. '"hen there are four nlc'u.hvorks oncratin~r w·ithin the district trcatinc; n pndnct th ·t ~could Yer~ well be treated b;.- undertakings •cith one half tho operating capac1ty, anJ. the' Yo1nmo of trade ( apab];-; of being l1anrllc~d could be iHf'rea.•;cc1 fnnr 1 irnP~. it is po '"iblc tl1at there would be a le· Tt is a:1 ncrcntccl £art that, when killir: , ov·rations fnll from ,-0.000 head o£ cattiP .1mnn:r to 40.000 head per annum,

Increased cost of ~d. per lb. number of < _lti"lo is not

is qnitc po~ .. :~ible th(.t tltP!'C ,,·ill The Swift· Con1pany nlso ngn_'f'S

that. wbih• the ab~1ttoirs contintH'. it \Yil1 put through rlH' vd1o1c of th cattle that- it kill-.; in Brish"llr; fnl' a period nf tPn year::-.

~.Ir. IT. FonGAX S11ITII: \Yhat will the perso~nel of the board Le?

T!w PRE:\liER: I will toll YOu that directly. S-wifts haYf' agr00d that for a pcrio(1 of tt~n yca1·s the,v will guarantee to kill 40.000 cattle annually. or (he-ir :-'qui,-a­lt nt 1n ~heep and calves, or, falling that. to pay 12· 6d. per hF't<l. That j,, to ""-· in ~liP- VP~T in \Vhlc_ 1

1 th0Y do not kilf thB

1 'qniSitc nnmbcr of c~t.i::lc. they ',,·_i_}l n ~~v· J 2s. 6d. p~'r h( 1d in respect of th~ deficicnr_ ~. This is subje~·t to nltoratiw1 at the ~nrl yc•ars, ]ll'OYid0d ~he;>· kill more than qaota at the end of that rwriod.

:Vfr. :\LIHFR: You will strike an aYcragc 1

1_ The• YRE:..IIEH: !hat . ~s ,so. The _gre~t r·ulk o! the trR.·le or S\·nrts lnr::·anYorh::::. 1~ int·'rstatn and export. If i'(;yjf+s like to sell portio::1. of the1r onota for local consurnpt1on, llF'Y will h2 at 1iborty to do so, ju~t the ~an1c ·~~anybody f)L-,e.

'\Y. FoRG.\X S:\fiT1I: Is the l·J:trc1 goillg tu the killing?

The· PRE:\UER: It is pro1Hlin~ a p:1bl!r utJlit,,-. "nd It w'll do all the kiilin<r

:VII·. \Y. FonG.\X S1IITI! : It is go in: to do nJl the operating?

The Prn::\IIER: Yes-all tlj() killing. r_:~iiEng. ~nd freez-inr.

~fr. STOP~-oRn: \\Till it have a monopoly of thJ operating for Dri.b_~nc?

·The PHE~HER: 1'\o. I ,,-ill t,i,-c you P-·'ticnlars of tha; dirr·ctl:.-.

:Hr. Brr.cnC"C: -\Yill the boa:rd ki1l for s-.\-Ift-?

The ~v·~fts or

The board 'Yill kill for ehe. E,-c,,ybody wiil

have the same preference. It will be much on the lineJ of the agrocmGnt with .'l.nglis's, of the Redbank works, which have agreed to treat 20,000 cattle annually at the abattoirs. Swiits also have guaranteed a certain quota. 'l'hey must have provision for their monthly quota reserved for them m the works. together with the necessary free?.ing or chil­ling space. That is definitely ;;uaranteed, ar<d it is certainlv then the dutv of the 1loard to provide ihc necc;;;sary acc~olnnloda­tion for the monthly quota. If they want to kill in excess of their monthlv quota, they are to give notice o£ the fact thirty days c>l.'forehand. Then, if the board has the spacn availabk, it will let them have it. If not, they wil1 nct rccr iYc .... n prefr:rence.

::Vlr. STOPFORD: Will those 40,000 cattle be tre-ated at a fixed rate?

Tlw PHEJ\IIER: \V(' do not fix the rate of blling; that is left entirely to the board.

:\ir. clTOPFOHD: S"·ifts wiil have no gunan­tecd r-1tc in respect to the ;o,ooo cattle they will treat annually'

Th<l PREMIER : :'\ o; their rate will be exactlv the same ns the rate fixed for any­bodv 'elf1e. S\vifts arc to have no conces~ ~~on~s whatsoeYer. The only stipulation i~ tbat. '.".:herl: tlw guarantee j~ for a certain nnmber of cattle or a monthly quota, suffi­cient '·f'lCO, including chilling ard freezing

pt:.Cl\ n1u;;;t bu !na·<~e aYailable.

:Hr. PoLLOCK: Will that ~d. per lb. be l:ecaus~ the seast r,td ratl of pay are cut out<!

The PRE:\riEE: That '.res the difference In thC' ro:o;t, including intcre ,t and overhead

b~nYf'rn treatint; in the works cattle and ,0.000. Swifts will have no

in that r2spcct. 0\'81' anybody else. A per· Jn can ha Ye one be<._st slaugbtered at exacth' the ~arnc rate as another vrho L~ts 1.000 \,·catcd.

?\:r. \Yu.sox: \Yi11 the brw_rd handle the kill as a cor11mon herd.

T1le PH.ET+.I1El: · )__-.-0~. That prHctiro i~ tlw sanu a is adopted ir_ ~'~delaidc, but not at I-Ion1chu:::h. l11 SYchwY. Th bo-~rd \"ill

,t the ofi:'al nnlf s~'ll it at tho rnarket and the o ".·ntr~ <,~,j]l get the price

, li~ccL lt ~~ t:lc cost of lJl"odudion.

:\.Ir. Btr.CCCK: \\'ill the hoard retain an~­ti1ing in that r pt·ct?

The !JRE:l\IIER: Xo: ti1 !lOthiw::- for it. The off·:d

-of tlw incli\·idu•l \YilJ

for

boo rcl will retain the pro­

CJ..ttle are the offal for nHJ.rket rat_,

o\vner ma) the board

market.

The Px:pod-. ,~d 1oc :l trade arn to ~rJC' all ~r11arate ~o r ns expenses are ('OJlcorneJ.. The-:_·e js no qn{>tion of the txport or intrrstat< part of the leaning on the loc-I! section for part of cxpens0'.

:\.Ir. '\Y. F'lP~Ax S}ITTJI: You h11'. c not any 1~a1L'r ou ~C~lC'~1H~ inYoh·ed?

1t is t~ public ,~, iJl ' ~1 ; n \V ay: ThF

:· r'c 111 de. Y· ii1 hP comn;.o:.l to n lL

nnd P~~J?t~(r.~ nt pri r .c\~·l.~1~:gf:a·~ 0 lOtl~~·~~: for a(1r.'1ir:i::-,tr '.tiYe c~q;cnscs.

At th0 ccnnd rending rnuch n1otc jnfcrn:.LLtiou on

I shall give 1na.ttcrs~

lion. ~1. E. .!!loon.]

934 [ ASSELIBL Y.] Ratification, Etr., Bill.

)go I . 111 confining n1_vsclf princi­tPrms of the agreement.

HAXLO}.. unrlcrt··king to

The O\Yner of tho r __ t:.~ufacturcd lc3s

I haY~ lr it to the deem·, it cl -iro blc to

et'lnC' to ;n agrcornent "·ith loe.Ll but-chering in rcgarrl to the co11c'ction of

Lt-:'., fJOin the shops. : Arc tho pO\\ .:rs IYide enough board to indulgL' in tlH~ rnfd1U­

~na p ?

Th l'RE'IliER: \Yh, t(; l.Jannfarture ;_ r..: f a ud thne \\:ill panic•s for and other

~\[r. ~fAXLOX: 1_'hc p01Y:r."" to ~p- C~P,:"tako 3Hch w.:Jrk arc in the Bill?

rrL PRE::.fiER: Tho powrr:' for the nlt:nu­factur0 of \v-prtx~ucts a·rc in r~10 BilL if it i-· clcemcd advinhlc bv the bo rd the C'Ga1mitl '<~ 1vhieh ,,:ill as•lst the rn ca1·r,yin;:.r on thi~ pt; bl-ic uti lit\'.

'\fr. HYXES: Will th•c co'lsuming public be protcd0cl ·~

ThP PRP',I!KR: 1 shall bc-1 ~ f11ll infornrtt·io~ jn :----- ,Jnd r:''tcE~!g tag

Tr1_0D1-

- t the

::\Ir. If y~ ·1 Pl'£' crc:,tinP" .n prcpo.-;p to cnnt-,cns·ltf'' iL:

'Thn PRI•~.'-Ir:-·n: Xo. \V(~ '-ll'·"' (')'· .1ti:'(T a ruor~onol,v .ft1r thr~ nhattoiJ~:-; in rc...:.r, 'Ct of n~'!lt that is to he sold in Brisban0, <'xccpt with thu cor"nnt of tl~c bo:·rd. s~. L t .n·..; ·t ~h:11l not be rf'fu.:;c:l to uch finni' a l'.Ir· :.r:-3. Borth­\Vif'ks. c;ll· ''I1'ihnd }lf'nt Ex:>ort CompanY. ~Tnrarri··. Bucon F'art'orv. Dnr1ing DowDs B::con Factory. 1nd Fcoggitt .. Jonc .. ancl .J. C. IInttnn and Company for all meat that is J1P.f':3L'd ~ ,':uitablP for h11rr:.an ccn:sumptjon a!thouQ"h nn~uitEhl0 for cxpr.rt. ~\ lot of nH:at is r:ot snitt1 ble for 0xprwt t 1 :-tt is qu·it"0 surtablc for human corsumpt1on lol'allv and thP bo; rd C'hou]d rot refu' nPnnj~.':l~t;n to any of thmw fi1ms f,1 ~ell rlwut hPrP.

}1r. IV. FonG I" s~nTH: Il<m do vnn pro­to deal with the priYate[y o• 11cd daugh­

~·ardf:?

_TflC P~T{'d fER: They will haYo to stop k1Jhng; cut we have arran --r,d for C("npcn­~ltion J.J be paid-not on th~~ la1J1 or an·-

a 1'0 artnn lly those on the octn -! csi'ab-

::Hr. \"\T. FoHf:FK S:uiTH: I1ov, ~.vi1l tlHlt bo fin." need?

The 1'TiF~;fiEH: That will b:' a the c .. pica]isation. 11ke th{~ f'm Prr1i11Rr"' jrrn·:bgation. AnT; 1l<lYC bo0n in-._:nrro1 np t,, '(:nte 1Yi11 to ~10 chnrQ'PS nga~nst the bor1rd. <llld thn amount Fl tlvtt connection is limited to £10,000. 1-' :i\'fr.+ T1:\X~OX: ThPr_P \vill h; 110 C'ornpcn"'a­t JOn _._or LY_: g .;ochv1ll of thos') slaughter­yards?

Tho PRK\IITIR: No. ThP actual out-of­p0cket C""::pensPs on1y \viH be ronsiderod. \''horoL a ',11"11 ~n.lwon comprllod under the prcs_C'nL SiauglhrTJng AC't to errct prF-~lnisns m~tmt;. say, £300 or £400 and \d1ich will only return him £100 when' pulled down, he

[ll on. A. T:. JI oorc.

'".J! be C<'mpcn·:~~ cl for tho dift;crcnc<' 1 preciai]on.

less

i Il'. \""i,T,

wore than

rrhc PREl\liEH: Son1e arc worth £1.500. .At scJ."t there arc thirt .. -thrQ(~ s1aup;htcr-v in c;-;:i:·t()r;c(. ar -1 it is to lw ll)ft to th( h;)" n1 to cmnc t') d11 \vit-h th·~e p._oplP ;;s to the c···mr:cn;:: tti'Jn !'''"able

~rr_ \Y. FoRG.\X S1nTH: I there any rrangelncnt in thP of h.· slnught ·-:·•"rds to

, .•ryie0 of 11-1c board';

Tlw 1'PE::\IIFR: hn e g·i ,,en tlH-~ ; lO]ntrT·nt .;. 'Tl:n

not be public

c'-J tlwt. bccnusc control of all oi the board

any v:ay.

?·Ir. IY. FoFGA'< S'ITITH: Many slaughter­men "·ill be displaood.

The PRE:\liER : \.s I st .t •cl reply to ' qw>tion b_;, the-~ hon. mcn1b0r Hose-wood, I hall make a rccominoudation to tho board that preference be giYen to men ho ill'P displaced by tlw operatim1 of the abat­toirs. \Ye anticjp,•te that th0._~_e is going to ' ' a cc;l·,ir1crab1c cxtcneion of killing v:hen 1 !"' ab·, tlcirs are o; artcd. At the present t i t)if' 1'-:L' La."~' rPer!, cd inquiries fron1 butchers i1~ tl11: :::outhorn ''fnt·, of Australia to know

·!1e1hc•r ;t ill· be possible for them to for kdlilt'-~ and chilling at these

'.rl' \Yill gin' an opportu11it:v to any ho ,, Elt them to do tho kill­

,lH1 lhc rate will be the came fm one or for fiftv cattle.

no conce~sion~~ and ar'ly profit. tlH' n r.;ponsibiliti~-:; in regard

t.) t _T<' t, J_· dctJption, and depreciation, , ill ~~-o to 1·cduc the charges.

, r. \V. FOTIGAX S·-rrTH: \Vhat about tho constitution of the board?

Tl::' PRK\HER: Thr' members of the h:) ~.rd wil1 bP aprJointed by t}w c;o,'ernor in CounciL There \Yill be onL ,;~cnoral rua na.ger, one l't:prcscntatiYc of i.ho produccl'S, ar:d

of the eo"· mncrs. The of the con"utnPr~ and the

of tho producers will be p;n·t· The chief man will be the

beP-t rnnn we c ,n -r(•t to n1anuge · ·oL· -a11d on hirn "~ill be tho re span-

for 1naki·1g rq1pointments and carry· in[{ on the work. So fH a:-; thr: cunning wOrks rtrc eonz _·rttcd. tho s~.vift ·will l1aYc the opportunity of taking onr -not at an; nric~ -·-but, if the Loord decides to );et rid ~f 'the canning orks. Swifts "·ill ha Ye the Sr.-.t oppurtunity of lcm:ing thcrn.

7\lr, \V. FORGAX 81!TTH: Vihat kind of illl

dvisory board will you hftYC?

T.1w PR E1\liET~ : I ha"" not spccifiPd for an adYieon· board in the Bill. That will be provided for in th' rrgulatiol'S. The Bill ii·.plf is rudl~ quite a ~irnp1u 0:1e. It pro· .-id---~ for <1 board and giYc- it 1he n0CC"sary

It will not do •;hat i-, c), re t Home-in regard to rneal ,~l-ion. The

"-:w rrre prrwidod the Dcpo rt-n1e~lt of ~\griculture vv.ill carry 011. All nH at .~1U_(, b ir:.::;pC'ct.-:d, and no D1C<"l.t will bo dlo'.c·rd to be 'old in the area except 1:it:h the consent of the board.

:Wr. Bc:Lcocr': ',Y]mt arc you F;oing to do 1 ith tho -urplus slaughter-house in6pcctors:

[12 SEPTEMBER.] J?rltifi ·at ion, Etc '? lJ ill. 035

The PRE~IIEI!. . I do not kno~,T,- y~·hat they ill do. or if there will be an,·. I am hoping

cc rtain an1ount of I\t thu present ti1nc

sornc or eight yards a dav; hat the,.- ., ill bo cou-cc•nh:a cPd ut the 'c\ o bcaot will be allo\\ ~cl to killed cxcerlt under thl; con~ ditions laid IJ:v the slau~htcring

aHd, any beast is unfit for it will be ck t10ycd.

beast will be taken !Jy almt1oir;-; and trcat~..-d in ·whatcYcr way

1 ;llld comprmsation given for the :\o prolit will !Jc

'l Pitk r by the

S UTI-I : \Yhr-: t do ~.-ou n1ean

Tho l'REl'.lTER: The owner will got the amount tlut the c:mdc•mnod bca t i,; >voc·th after it J.;; treated. \Yhat does not go in1o

will Le uspd for by-prodtL ts, get the Yaiue of that.

Mr. Bm.c-or ,;: : Doe, the Bill provide for inspccho11?

The PHE: UER: The Bill does not pro­vide for an:·thin~ in that waY. That is entirely <Yit',in the central of "the Depart-

rnfL_ cf .\erricn~tur~·. as at [11 a.m.J present. The bocrd ,.-ill appoittt

1:0 rnsp_c1nrs. This 1-, nrelv n pnblir, ntil :ty to pro yid, for the ~tnd d13tributio!l nf th'• 1neat, if ncces"iarv; I do not for a n1f''lt Inarket 1wC;-otP~C

thnt the• re are ope 8 ton; '.vho arc• butcht~r;;:.

Then~ is to a rhill·i11g-romn do\vn::~tair-s, to ,~hi eh ra11 go and purchase n1cat a<--~·ordin!2." to tlw qnantitT-r they ''"ant; and that is call,- r1 a ~lrOYlsion for a Ll•1 tt 1narket. A butcher rnn' bP ::tblt~ to p"!Jrchase y. hat he rPq11irc.s frmn oth('l' oncrativc-;. The board v:·ill haYP 110 pov:er to plll'rha .p cattl0 or sell meat. It >Yill not Le a dr>alcr. \11 it will haYc to do >Yill be to [llCoYidr• facilj.· s for killing at a cPrtain Jate.

c.Ir. BtLCOCK: 'Nil! the board han: con­trol over bu:chcrs· shops'?

The• PRE:\IIER :. );o .. The rcgnlaiions will proviClr~ for the rcgH~,trntJon of bntcht•r.•;' f-hops so that !he board will know whore they are.

::\Ir. KmwA::.r: Paddv's :'11arket m tho V'a1ley, for ins1ancc? "

Tho l'RE;.UEH_: Every butcher's shop wtll have to be r( g·;st"recl-not that thev will be taxed. but so that tho boar cl m a\' ·know where the ,:;;hop5 l"tre. ·

An 0PPOS!J'IOX :\lE .• !DF.R: Yon did not a:;k the Trc asurc~r '':hen you rnado that ~tate­mcnt. (Lrrn;;·ht r.)

The lt to clo ·with 1~' . it for ~\feat Board. (Opposition latwhter.) The board will be giYon controt of tlw killing, freezing, chilling, and any othrr tions eanied on at the >Yorks. If the by an:- chance, should fix fecJ th:tt did not meet its liabilitic,. for ono year. it ··ill h ve p_ower to mrroase the foC's to meet its liR.bili­tles nc-;:t year.

An 0PPOSITrox :vlniBER intorj ccted.

Tho PR1DHER: We pay no inLrnt for the first siY months.

:Hr. Km wAx: Primarily it i " Govern-ITH'nt obJigatlm1? '

Tho PIU•:!VIIER: Yes. Wo have not fixed th. foes in the Bill-it is left to the board.

Will the boa rei

The PRKMIER: i\o, just the same as for a.nybody else.

An (; PPO~TTION undertake to kjll years at 1;.:::_. 6d. a

Do vou sav vou for ~1 number: of

The PRKI\UER: Th., will be fixed; ant1 it jg clcfiaitelv f'Ct out the ngrccnlCllt t1utt s,vifts are orllv to be charged the san:le r~w as other pcopie.

~\ir. J3CLCOCK: How do you arrive at that h.-is of 12s. 6cl.?

PRKHIEH: It is bv "'"Y of a chart.. c~1-v,ha t \VC ~ \\·i]] be

losQ if tl~cv do ''ot kill tho1t nmonut of ::-tnck alter lu:tvlng guaranteed it. \Yho~ ~he a.b:~.t1oir:-~ arc fixing their rates for krll~ng a1ul frcezin!.;, they \vant to have ."Jrneth·Jng de/1nite to :,:o on. There is an agroc1nent for them to kill in Southern Quecusla'ld up to a definite rninirnum of 40,00(}, and thcro is 1.n D.YTcemcnt \Vlth the H'Jb.'<nk Cornpany up to~ a dcl!nito minimum oE .20.000. They kiJO\'V pretty \Vcll \Yhnt the lnlhng rcqunc­rncnts of thP citv of J-3ri·,t:anc area, are. The\ \\'ill be able t'o estiinatc fairly dcflnitel: what is nccc· al'y for them to charge as a fillll1111H~~~·

Mr. i'll LCOCK: \Yill t]p ,:ome charc·e be Hl<llk f~)l· all sections of the operations.

Tho PRK!\JIEE: }'\o c.;•clion can loaf on the othcT section, or Yice versa. \Ve (_'a.nnot have the Bri-,Lauc exporters l,_,afiug on tho inter: tat' cxporTl~rs.

:vir. KrR,c.\X: The nccom.ts h vo to be lc;pt se para tel_y ·:

The PHE~IlEl{: The ac~ounL will lK~ k~._-.pt separately.

_._\.n 0PP0~1Tl0:-\ ~lL\IBER: \Yill thctc be any

The PHEMIER: :\o; tho chargco for c::tch section >Yill be set out.

::\Ir. IV. FORGAX S3JITH: Tl!c>re >Yill h" no for a yariation in the killing

cha;,:gc

Tht• PR E::.IIEH: 0£ co::r -c. an~vbody who ha:-:. a ( l~T-•·;,~ in the \vorks for twenty-four hours -will not havP to pa:~ the satnc charge~ a~ a 1nan vvho has one there for twenty­e{ght days.

_5.Ir. PoLLOf'K: 'Vho ,, ill g·ct Lhc benefit of anv pmllt on the work--the producers or thC coa:;.unH'rs?

The 1'1\1<::\IIER : Both. I hope. l\1r. POLLOC'K: .:\re you going to flx the

pl·ice of rncat so thrrt the consu1ncrs \vill bo protected?

The f'Rl'::\TIEH: I do not kno'.Y tlnt it will be necc'''arv to fix the price•. I antici­pate that llw m·icc of meat >Yill not be any highc'r; po8'iblv ·it will be lower. It will depend on conditions. If, und0r tlw new condition~. ·we are going to hrt vn better f ,)m-pdition in the yards, there misht be little higher price for rneat; but. kill~ in;>; charge n.ric, by 2s. 6cl. per that arnount W1Jn1d be so infinjt,--3imal it conld not bo pnt on to the price. For inst,·ncc, ~d. pt r }b. on the price of n1c't on the_ nurub(1 r of stock whi<--h \o;·ou1d be going throu~h tho \Yorks, if they \Ven~ going at

lion. A. E. Jlloorc.]

936 Abattoirs Agn <3ment [ASSEMBLY.] Ratification, Etc., Bill.

anything likf' their capacity, would represent £80.000 per annum; so that a small amount of increase or reduction in the cost would mC'an a very big thing.

Mr. POLLOCK: Yon sai~l that the price of killing would be J'cduced about ~d. per lb.

The PRT.;\fiER: Ko. What I said was that i h:' rhfl'nenr·c in the cost of killing hchvecn 70 [,~·O etnrl 40.000 head going through the works on the original capital value would amount io about ~d. per lb.

~Jr. \Y. FOR'i-\X P.:11r 1{: T~ any nrrangc­mcllt mnrlc in th1' Bi11 fol' the boarcl or the Depart rncnt of Agriculture to arrange for th(· QTuclin-i of the bcnsts according to qtwlity:

The f'HF1IIFP: haYc left that cntirclv tn tho hoard an(1 to the: rrogu1a1ions. It is a dGJncstic matt()r.

)•TI·. \V_ Fcmnx s,n ·n: It is really a motter frr tltr D{'partnl nt of Agriculture and not the board.

The PRE'·TIER: I <:uit" ar.:ree that grad­ing is C'Sential and that is being provided for in the rerulatlorrs. ProYi--lon can be mado for meat grading. The big thing is to SPr' th;1t the pnhlir; f.tt't. nh.::ol11tf'1? whok sorn0 o!ed cle 1'1 kill0el nnder the best coniiition~. Th~- t11lng 1:-; r•:>n llv a r·nhlic ntil;h. fro'l1 '"hich. tho GoYC~rnnlont. r, €'XC'Ppt so far as to uwko

-1 Tr. \Y. Fon(;.'<~ P.:.tnn: l_-nu a,'f' PxtPndin_Q'

1-hf: TH'inciple of Stnh~ pntcrpris~' to the killing Gf 11ttl<'?

Th,, PHI~~ fTEH: Thl~ js not n Stat<'-owned c·n:-erpric:-:. ThP Stnt• \';:11 ]Jnn·~ I!othing to d J with t'h0 rnr1nr1s;rmcnt or 'vith the Pn"'.plov'' ''·. Thn~ thin~~·s rrrtJ ]eft cntirelv to thr bOnrd. vvhl('h "·111 l·1yc to rarn .. o'n a nubhc ntil-itv in thr pul1l' iYl~··rr-·~ts_:_in the iPtr'rt ~.1 ·. not only of tbe producf'r:", but a!so nf tbf' eonsun10r-.

~1"1'. HT'"T/'OC<(.: \Yill tl~( boanJ he rcspon-~iblo t'o P~.r1in·]10~1t? .

Th, PPE:\1TEP : y, · · a·Hi th'. apnoint­nH_'Pt~ \Vil1 h DJ) de h'~,_ i~.'

:\Ir. BTTrrorK: ,\ncl if it l10ulrl fail, the rc.:non?1bi1itv will be un tho Gon.~rnn1cnt of n1 .king' good tlr~ 1o~3.

1' 1 1~" PnF~JT"En: It n1n'(t b" in the ngtur0 nf thin'!': bnt I do ne,\- thi"k th· qnr'stion of fu.ih~rf' shn 11ld C< n10 lnt'o it, hrr -q1~8 the board i8- inn nc~l:ion to k1HnY th_, d0finitc minimum f!'l'1nti1-v 0f torlz: it w111 }wyc~ tn kilL the r>nnihl Yflln0 of :!ts work, and the interest and rr_'dPnJntion it hnc.; to IYlf'('t: and it ~houkl. be on a liflecl to f1x the rate of kill in" and other charg-e' \·chic!o will meet tho"o costs.

:.\fr. Bt,.LCfJC'K: Tt \Yill bahnH'r' i1-s ]edger at lhc expert'': of tl'lc cornrnunity?

Tho PRF'\1Il~R: That ma~· be the argu­rncnt Df thP hon nJctn h0r; but surely l1c mu-t understand t·hat. with a definite• quan­(t.\' th::1t th0 l)(Jilrd \Y"ill lo1ow it ha~ to put thnmr.:h. it should be able to ea lrnlate a he :cl I

For in~t.anrc. as I haYc alr tncntio~ed. 1 1 p:._r lb. on t:1P prir~ c, will r ·f."'an a

of £Bo.noc rwr nnrmn1 1n the fm":tncinr" Df the works: o t11n t w:1v ordinarv 10:::;.q won1d rne~n a -;cr:v :-:mn 1] diff0rcnce ii1 p!l<'l''l,

1\1 r. se1 !r1ri

Bn" er: : ITa Ye tn h..-. p : iJ?

you

fHon. A. R. Jloorc.

decided on the

The PRKYIIER: That is being considered.

Mr. BuLCO<.X: Arc you goillg to approach tho Cornmo:n'·r>alth GovC'rn1ncnt 1vith a view h dealing with the question of dual control in exarninations?

The PRKMIER: That is being gone into. That does not come into this Bill. I want to state definite!;,· that the undertaking is there for a public utilit:1·. and not for the purpose of profit. It will provide the oppor­tnnitv for those who han' stock to sell to have "them treated upon the one basis. When fat stock g. t below a certain pa_"."ablo quan­tity, meahYorks cea.se operating, \vhich pos­sibly means a glut in the yards berauso there is no opportunity for the outside buyer O'CCept for the purely local trade. Under the abattoir system the works will operate con­tinuously. whether a supplier has one head, ten head. or 100 head of cattle for treat­nlcnt: and the opportunity ·wl11 always be aYajJablc fm· the inter.statt• on~r-·t')r nud the export OllCrator. They can bl-lng: their cattle to be trc:11 d. ir-respcc·tiYe of the off ,eason. became the works will be operating all the time. It will probabJ,- mean a better -tabili,ecl market from tbe point of view of the [Jrodnc<•r. and the meat will be produced nnclcr ]Jcalthier and better conditions for n~c COrlSUlil('l'. In lllS" opinion. it \Vill be to iho advanta;;e nnd will lead to the develop­mer;': of the cattlf' indnstrv of this State. and ~.\,.ill be an adYa.ntagl! to the consun1cr3 in Brisbane.

GorERX.\I>CXT ):fEMBERS: Hear, hear!

~Jr. W. FORGA~ S:\UTH (.lfncl •'!!): In mo,,·in" thi~ rc,-;.olution the Prem1er first of ail :::aid that a }ward \voulcl be appointed, and that it would bo given complete control of tlw abattoirs. and that the abattoirs would be run for the lntrpose of ::u1.rl~ ing rneat for consumption by people within the metro­pol;tan area. He also stntcd that arrange­m<'nts ha cl be~n n: 1de for tlw treatment of chiller] meat for the interstate trnde, and that ~~ rr>1ng·emPnts \VOuld be made fo1· canning and for the export trade. He aLa said that thP arranp~cnwnts proYided for a public utilih· that would senc all inkrcsts con­cC\'necl: that l-htc board' ould kill on owners' account. whether it he a butcher. whether it be a con11H1 n,v engaged in the interstate trade, or a company engaged in the export tr~tdc. So far as I could g· thcr. the board will act '" killers. freezers. etc. It will be the lmtchcrs. using the term in its \Yide··t s· nf"P. ..:.\ charg-e 'vill Le nutde on the 0 1.vners of the c,tttlo for the senice rendered, such charge being- in the nature of an amount thct ,,-ill pa:; m·Cl'head and operating costs.

The PF.DIIER : Y cs.

:\h. \Y. FORGA::\' Si\fiTH: I understand that comncn>ation v.-ill b~ tendered to those who cot;duct slaughtcl·-:·.tn1s within the rnctropolitan area-that their businesses rcprc_.ent a Cf'rtain arnount of fixed capital.

The PRE}fiPR: Not land.

Mr.\\-. FORGA" S:\HTH: I am not refer­ring- to lnnd for the purpose of rn~v argume_nt. Provioion "'ill be made for compcnsatmg butchf'rs w!10 no1v have capital invested in slaughter-yard,. In some c some of the s1aughter-Ynrds have cost a arnount of rnoney, bl.tt in other en -s the c pitalisation will not b9 so higb. The Premier did not sa-~ v:hethPr in Hlo \-aluation of such plant n:,ard \':ill be had to its obsolescence.

The PREJ!IEH: Depreciation.

Abattoirs Agreement [12 SEPTEMBER.] Ratification, Etc., Bill. 937

:\1r. vV. FORGAN S:\HTH: Obsolcsc0nce in th<l sense I use the term means that there is a difference in ihc value of a slaughter­yard as a going concern and the value of such a plant when this Dill is passed and the slaughter-yard ceases operation.

The PRE,IIER: There is no goodwill.

::Ylr. W. FORGAN SMITH: That is so. In addition. it reallY becomes a breakdown value, or scrap plant.

The PREMIER : Yes. Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: In some cases

the plant will be Bold for use in country districts, where it may be so utilised. In any ca.se, so far as I can visualise the opera­tion of this Bill, thoro will be centralised abatto:rs engaged in killing for the local trade, t.he interstate trade, and any surplus kill which will be exported. A service \vill be guaranteed by the board to people who arc engaged in the business of selling the various meat product· nccessa.ry for hum•tn consumption. In addition to that, by­products will also naturally be dealt with.

The wi,dom of embarking on this line of activity is ono which can be seriouely ques­tioned at the present time. No one <·.m argue seriously against centralised killing. From a hygienic point of view, th0re is no doubt that a large centre of population like Brisbane should have had local abattoirs long ago. I honestly believe that in all centres of population of 1,000 or more people there should be some form of centra.lisecl killing, subject to eome pnblic authority which \Yill sec that lhe operations are co rried on in the public interests. There can he no doubt that, under a centralised sys~<'m of killing, many undesira Uo features nnder the present system would be eliminated. for no amount of ins11Cction under such <'On­ditions <an assure the people of the hygienic control of meat for human consumption. The case for centralised killing is one tho.t no intelligent person can seriously argue against. In addition, centralised ki11ing­should enable the Department of Agricul­ture to set out and enforce regu:ations regard­ing the g-rading and quality of moat in a way that is impo.<Sibk under the indiYidu"'li't !',;stem. If, for instance, a man vvants t-:> k1y butter uuder existing conditions, he will buy it according to grade and ctnality. The law provid0s certain grades aud qualities of butt<Jr. 1f the Premier enters a bnsiness houf!o to bn.v a pair oi shoes, he buy·,., on the basis of quality. and the price is dct"rmin~d on the bnsis of rpudity alid workmanship. Under the present sy.-tern of slanghtering cattle tho public has no m0ans of f)nsnring t.ha t the n10at is frorn a prirnc b~ll1ock, a ~Jag, or a speycd cow.

GoYERl~l\IE:S'r ~.IE~IBEHS : N onBenso !

Mr. \Y. l<'ORGAN S:'diTH: Certain mem­bers of the Government Party interject.

::_\lr. EDV."ARDS: Yes-nonsense!

Mr. W. FORGAN S:\1ITH: That is a sub· ject on which a person with a mind like the hon. rncn1bcr for Kanango tn1ght b rogal'ded a~ an expert. 1 ag-ain rc-poat that. if a person >;O"S into a butcher's shop uow_, he cannot buy on grttdc and qunJity. If a person :l<':.ks for a sirloin roast, he is snpplied with a cut from the sirloin, but he is unable to determine on the basis of quality whether t'oe cut is from the sirloin of a prime bullock or otherwise. If the members of the Gon,rn­mcnt Party do not realise the importance

of grading 1ncat on the basis of qua.lityr t hPu they are singularly ignorant of the position

The PRE}!IJCR : It is one of the main factors.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: I agree with the Premier that it is one of the main factors; and I hope that he will take the lirst opportunity to instruct the back bcnchers of his own party on those matters on winch he and I arc largely in agreement. (Laugh­ter.) However, the main feature that calls for criticism in this Bill is that the Govern­ment propose to invest approximately £500 000 of State funds in this abattoirs busi~ess. That is Government expenditure of loan funds, whether it means the raising of a loan or otherwise, because debentures will have to be issued to the extent of the <lntannt of the purchase price.

The PREli!IER: I might te11 you that the debentures are non-negotiable for five years.

Mr. \V. FORGA:-;: SMITH: But the intere:.t upon them is a fixed charge· on the revenue of the State, and the debentures inflate t!w loan expenditure of the State to the extent £500,000.

The PRE}liER : It does not come out of our (1Uota from the Loan Council.

Mr. \Y. FORCiAN S:VliTH : But it is a deiinite addition to the loan indebtedness of QHeonsland. It makes no difference ,,hether the £500 000 is taken from the Loan Fund Acconnt 'and jJaid direct to the \ Pndor3, or whether a fonn of purchase IS <..nrangcJ sn-ch at-; Is 1nu1tioncd in this mcasurP.

The PRimiEH : It does.

::Yir. W. FORGAN SMITH: There is no real difference. The only difference that rho Premier may plead is that the Govorn­nlont 1niO'ht not othenvif:o have been ablo 1·0 raise the £500,000. In other words, the Ucy,-crnrnent are floating a ]oan fron1 the f'Otnpany \vho arn tlw vendors _in this ca~P in respect of the pure ha: 0 rn'Jco of thmr plant. Obvious!:,-. too, they as ycndors get an ach~antage, because over a P''fiod of years on a fixed capitalisation of their assets the;, . re guarantrocl 5 pel' cent. interest by . the State. That, of course, mny be an obvrous ~._h-nntngc to the vendor cornpar:y ?peratrng

in C'-x:port. and to son1c ext.01.t 1n Interstate trade. It is diffieult to say whether they \\ onld l>o able to make that net profit operating tlw works themselvc, and to t~at e:....,"--'nt. thcv arc r£>ceiving an ,~dvantage 'vh1ch should b~ 11 consideration in fixing the llnrcl-mso price.

The PHE:\riER: They 111ight on the v;rittenw down nt!ue of the plant. They could not n1ako it on their original capital value.

1\lr. W. FORCA:-;: S:i\IITII: It means that. tCJ the oxt<•nt of tile price paid by the State, thn cmHpany arc securing for thernselves a­net prolit on their invc tifH·nt of at least 5 per cent. per annum.

The PRJnimR: A not pror1t on about £coO.OOJ--·tlH' written-do· 11 '· alue. Thev

to spend another £1CO,COO odd in directions.

''.Ir. \Y. FORGAN SMITH: Whateyer the <'apitali' >tion may bo, they are getting net i11tcrcst at the rate of 5 per cont. per ann lUll.

',I r. Hl.xLOK : Free of i ncorne tax? The PRE:.\HER: No.

Jlr. Bmith.}

938 Abrrttnrs Aqre- n:"nt [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. W. FORGAN S~IITH: Is thr-rc any differenco betw•>cn the debentures vhich .,·ill bo ;,sued to the compan:> and ordinary debenture• i"'ued b.\ the State?

The PIU'111 ~n: .Tbcre is no difference.

Jiir. W. FORGA~ S~V!ITH: lJnder the existing lrtw, if they are ordinary State debentures, they are not subject to f:-\hte incomo tax, but only to Federal inconrc tax. That is factor which should be considered in D the terms of this purclwce. A State is not snbicct to State incorne

SHl' spcclficall:.· inlllOW it. The PREc\ilER: It 18 not ~peci!:~ Jly

:imvo·;ed.

~Mr. W. FOIU~AI\1 S:'YHTII: Thc·1 the debenturC''3 arc fLT" of incoruc t<:_x, so that the corn'ct ;unount pa~<thlo In <Dny one · arrived at hv adding the v;~lue of b" that wot;ld otlJer-wls~~ lY~ pa~,-a1Jlc b,\7 t\1c vendor con1pan~· · and that factor should be cow idorcd in UTscs i-:_..:_g tho vn 1 uo of the inYcstn1ents to the con1pany. Thg HHdter i:3 open to very ~L·;;vc qucstioll as to whether. under the ex1shng fmaneial cirenmstanc0' of the State, tho Go\·ornn1ent arc justiflccl in purchasing t.he:-;p \Vorks at iho existing- rate of interest and free from incon1P tn.x. It reprt'Sl'llts a cer­tain chargo on the l"CYenues of the State. It roprpsents " certain charge on the peopl0 of the State that miiTht haYe been better used in other dircct1ons. Another pha~:~ of the ]lllrchac"' i, this-I rdn more particu~ lady to the cxpon trade: Has tlw Premict· anv infornuttion \Yith rc•gard to the Slllta-hifity of thP ,y_)rk~,, eitfH'r now o-r \Vhcn improved by Pxpcnditnro of £100,000. in l'Ortrcction n''"'" rnethocls of fr ez.ing nH•at fot ThPeo arc hro nwthod;; 110\\' in 'L~ v:hich Vi.·ill accon1pli:'-h prnc:ticall)' a l'Pi..Jiuhon in the frozt'll u1eat tradP.

The PREull£E: '1 hat is proYidod for.

:VTr. W. S:YliTH: That is wry satief&ctory. So as I hrrve been able to follow the 11cw method, w.hich is claimed to have been distinctly successful, the pres:nt method of frc,>Zing meat wi 11 bocomo a thmg of the past. U ne! or the existing method of freezing meat the ti,suh to some extent are destroved, which i,, not t.he case undm the new "m('thod. Furthermore•, considora.ble econornics are n1adc because of Lhc f'hortcr period rcqui rod for freezing to the desired tcinperaturo. ln add itiou to that, tlle cs110rt v..;ry lurgely \1 on!d bt• couGncd to C'Ut-up ll1f'rt t. In ot l:L•::_· \Yord~. bonos a.nd fertilisr>rs 1.onld rorn.~in an a· eN to Australia nncl bo antilable for cultiYation purpocos.

The Prc1nicr stat,;d that his oLjPctlYc ln this regard \·as lo gi\'C cficct to thu rPport of tho Beef Cattle Industry Commicsi9n. 'rhc r~CcornnH:mdu ti Otl of that con1n1i•.3sion wa., that a board should be formed .-~ith anthority to purebasf;, acfJ_uirc. or ercc~ up~to-dato fll('at" orks for cbattoir pnrpnses. But, in addition to that, it recommended that a condition precedent to such activit,~ should involv( a cotnplete organi::;ation of the cattle industey. The point I \Yaut rnorc information about in connectioH '·ith thi~ Bill is to what does the Pn•mier assume that this going to b::nctlt the cattle indu~try as such? vVo ln;ow lhqt, during the tremendous slump in ~nttle values, the numbers of the herds throng;h-'u.t the State wore very largol.v depleted. Ir1 •dditic·n to that, it is well known that the

rJf?' SmiU.

of the herds !t !1VCs vorv much to bo Onlv a few people ha~YP done Y~'~ry

rrwch in the· direction of building up their herds , ith a view to producing bcttcl'~que.lit.v hullr:ck;;; th:-tn ,',YC rtYailable at the prc::::cnt lime. That involves a responsibility on the indu,trv in the form of m·~:anisation that the Pn;rnjcr ha6 srtid nothing' about.

'\Yith rc"ard to operating costs and the fl:t 11Cral eft~ et en the conslnncr. it is well kno·. n tha.t the net cost to a butcher for meat landed on the butcher's block at the prescllt tirnc nndcr existing n1cthocls is :a. 1•·•r lh. That is. under existing methode of slaughtering, ~d. per lb. covers all the c0sts lo the bu•chcr for trampori of cattle to his slavg.hter-:;;~ard, killing and tn.":-t.trneut there, and 1TaH~port of the meat to his shop.

\ Gon:H'C}JE:\T }\TniBER: How do you aJ .. flYe at that f!gun'?

l\Ir. W. FOHGAN S:YIITII: In other \\~ords, ~cl. per lb. covers the price to the butch·er under the existing arrangcrncnts :: ~:d methods of killing.

hon. member oppo,;itc asked how I arrived at that figure. I am quoting

from sworn evidence tendered to the Indus~ trial Court. The evidence from the mectt-

works with regard to similar [11.30 a.m.J costs is ~d. per lb. higher than ~ that. The co5t of treatment in existing n1catworks in Nc\vcastlc, Sydney, ~.Iolhourne. and Adelaide, so far as I have been abl0 ·to g·et the figun. ~~ is in excess of tho cost I hav~e quoted. In other words, the operating cost:s of existing abattoirs in ot~er Stales arc h1gher per lb. than the cx1sbng costs to butchers lmdcr the existing methods. I am quoting from sworn evidence before the Industria,! Court, and also in regard to abattoir charge·, in Adelaide and 1\IclbourPe. Can the Premier assert that the cost to the butcher 'vi1l be lesa, Gl' oYen cquivalc,1t, under this board?

'I'll<' Pm:•.rTER : T,!lC'_v will be lr•ss than ~d. a lb.

Mr. \Y. FORGA:-.:- S:'IIITH: \Vhen were t l1o"e figures given to th,... hon. gentleman?

TlH' PnE)HER : You can ece the f-igure8 in il1e report I ga vc you. They arc less than that.

Jlh. W. FORGAJ\' SJ\IITH: I am quoting from the la't balanc~>~sheets of the boarde in the other Atol<'e, which indicate a hig.ber cost per lb. than the cost to the butcher in Bri~ba11e at the pn sent time. Of course, cyeryonc know' al!out the oYor~capitalisntion in Adelaide, ar.cl particularly in Sydney. I,Ye know tlw.t the Sychwy nbattoir' WPre run '1 a great loss for a nun1bcr of yC'ars, and

·.~illC'l' then the capitalisation ha: been con­siderable- reduced.

The l'HEMIER : And then increased again.

:i\lr. IY. FORGA~ S::VIITH: Increased as a C."::lH of addition8 to plant and irnprovc­nlcnts to n1achinery.

The PRE\liEH: No: besides that, they put on £200,000 that had been written off.

Mr. \V. FORGAN SMITH: In any case, there are ,~er"; many important cGnsidcrations to be taken" into account in den.ling with this Dill; and, while the Premier in his introductory remarks has given us a certrdn amount of inforrnation-which _vet rmnain,. to be c":tabli~hcd-wo shall require to rnah:B a very full study of the Dill before we can

[ 1~ DEPTE:\IBER.l . ' 939

'{ lJ<)l'OlFrb l V

effects ~>f,

,,

the iml)l;Ptdions <Jnd l. ~ ,w furtht'r cont­lllP1'c' \vilt b·· tna.clc

sl.:g0 of t lr0 Bill.

:\lr. WlEi'\IIOLT (F •:,.,ijtrn): I onlY wi.sh to deal in the 'vidr t Sf'nse ' rno~t '~ Il('ral wav \Yith dtis If I wc1c "to rl"al 1D flni~h. I rui~~-ht trrke a :ong ti en~~.

Tl1c r~ ~: 1 d n·ry sG"Ious qnc,~tion Of whether, firstly, as the of the Opposi-tion pointed out, it is nc:~css::uy to r ,tnb1ish ;tbaitoirs in n c1t~- likl~ Gri~,!Janr: .:.;econdly, ·whether dar ~chenH~ 1s sound and suitable; third!:·. whL.hN this is a \Visc and approprinL~ tiaw. in the JnicL~t of the 1nu~t -r~ou-; PC:~..,nornic cri~is in the history_ of An trali:J, tr; g'o ltl!O i-1 bi~ ~tpd. ~XJ1C'l1!'tYP YPntnrc, L'ntailillg \·cry heavy lwLdnws to the ~tate.

O:t thn fir.-.t (!Llt'-.;tirJll !""':-:) to whether son10 i.~lll of ce;Jtl"rl ;J:_uttuil-~ nndcr a beard ~)r

{Jt iJt•rv· i~P ~hon ld nor ht' in~tiruted J n CJT<>' with tlH I., td 1' of tl:t' Oppo~itinu. lt is au dClJicYf'HlC'llt that lll<: ,· b(~ \Yf'il f'Ol~~idcrc-d t:c;:;irablL'.

. Thl' ~PCC1Hld C!IF's~ion 1~ \Yheiher thi~ 8chcme I" <-l ~oalHt n11d ~FJ' O!lf'. I do not want to de d in an: but nLJ::-t gtLlcr,:l . uv \Yith rh if' pror1o::---l; but I just ''ant to s.lv t.hat I hf<iPY,- i1 is a boichc·d up and con~plicatt·d .. ('lH'DJf' Oll whir.:. we .. ;;;honld unt I j 11~t v.-i~h to rc·fre l1 rn'" rcading a• fc·w lin(·~ fl"o1u "!"

1• .' 1~~UP

of tl1r· "A~. ricultural .Jonrnai." I-Ion. rrH'Ill­!J('!'s -...,..~ll renlPlnbC'r that a party of l\c\v Zealand farrnPrs Yisitcd f:hYift· · 'nu~ahYorks and WPrc :-;ho··,:r,·n OYer th0n1, and the rnnnagt>r xnadc a, short ~ppc,ch aftc'rv· re~ in \Ybich !10 made the<o romarb.-

"A the;· Yn:rc TY!.·oh,Jl)h' ,,r a\\'i.tn·. 1hf' s,,j~t di tribntinr~ of n~~'at ancl cllliecl prod11ct, is concluc __ d ou an :.1tcnJational ba~i:-. and t'hc S\Yift brand. ar:d the high ~tandard it '.tanc1s for, is kno\Yll \\·arid­wide."

lie pointC'd ont that the,· ·\ere P<tvinn· \7 ~;ry st1ms. of monev f~,. c"ttle~thcy had

th,nk, £15,0~0.00J for .;lock. and itl wuges durin~ tl1o tinle the boon in opcrntion-·and then he

to s'':V thi.-

" "':Ye hnYC' nt cur Jispos:d in the importing: countr]r" of the \Yorlll a hio·hlv or :::aniqed selling org-ani~ J"tion. which

0c .1~1

tak~- good f'arc of tiH! products shipnPrl to it fro~11 the ,-ar!ous surplus-producing nountnf':-; \Yhf'rC' the cornnnnv·s r-lau2.·hV•r­ing- opcratio!"1s are ._'OlHluctf:d, and. you. !If'nilr:•mcn. have ~oen for vonrsC'lves the cfh?ient nH·thods we emplo·; in the prepa­rntwn of our products and towards the clin1inatloll of I\ ~t~Jc. ''

u~·-' that 0x:tract to indicah~ tl12 n~turc of i!rrn which it i3 proposed t·o bnv out and

,,-ith an amateur boord. (Opposition I ha"<' no hostility whatever to

rrrnC'mlwr ·when 1·hcy· c:mn hero, and T 1. as (•ne of thos0 \Yho Ctlnc into con­i" wt \\"it 1l Ol' intc:n-ir',\·cd thPjr rcprc•s0nt'tt:ivc nr nwn~sz:cr, ::\Jr. ~Ialkcl\v. I \Y::l,s glad to see i hcrll conlt'. nnr1 ~?lad to see them rernain. ~-\I,\· YlP\\. was that we v-.:antccl as much cn1npct> :on as possible.

:Hr. Km''.'AC'l: Do von remember the debate in this House on the question?

..,T: ,.\-IE:\1inLT: I rc·JH<'Inb ·r lt Ycry <· 1l. T l'~·nH'!lllwr ,;ypu ~ 'Hl~~· 1,f d1....: n~marks

1b ··t ·l;,... Be:• ~n<t,l l!Jaclt:. I do not \ ·~lJt, t:r) clsn of 11

1t Ill thi~ 11ro-a 1Yo:dd-wido

nu shonld h:•y(' sub::-titnted for 1i: a board of '' 11 \\ c1H 1lll . " (Oppositio.;I lauehter.)

Then HJ''fe it~ dw 2 ,,·hethcr it is v j e or sonnd-at tlrnc 1 i-..o ~-' 11l others

to add ·D n;orc to the th lJt of th,: ~.:Jtc. tlf' i.nrn it or cxpl~1in it a.;; \'(1U it j;:, C<J~h. is pai-c1 frorr1 1 rn:--t fn;ul issue cf delwnturPs, or Ln' impo'c' <t fr, li hility to tlwt cxtPut pcdple of t~tnte.

The L' t bo \lpp"'ition yedercla:· of int; re ~t. <.t11d

.A u~b·n11a is pa yin;..:: a ,-,•r·, I11011e;·. It is Paying 6 per cent .. wl1ereas l'\ ew Zt alancl is e:ettillg-it.'-' nwncy for 5 cent .. nnd other countrit\3 for en:n'' l :·ss. only know two su.!.rg• "t~on~

redif·-· that posllion. One i~ to repudiate tlcbt. The other i:" to irnproYe :·our

o.•curit-;-_ a}1pre(·iatf' "'OUr 1onn:, improYc the \", 1uc of :your 1'tock, ancl ~o reduc; your inter~·~t in tho \Yor1d)s rnarket.

InHead of l<~oking upon th0 nal ional debt <I"' ~OfllPthiug to be continHa11.v increased. \Ye eau achieYP out· end on1;7 by l't'U<ll'dir·g it as ~om0thi11g that ~hould lw rC'durt>cl. OnrP the

)rld JUOil!'V n.:nkot re ,li·,l':3 the States 'lf ..:\u~tl'.! lia--or tht• 1Yllo1e

to n•cluc~"' till'~ r dt'bb. and

·,y(' .-.:lwll br• nllh• to ~aYe' (If pnnnds 111 thrcughout the CJ!llHlonwealth. I \'q no' jll t1w Loa11 C'onncll, nor do I lK'liP\·e in tho Financial Agri'eUJC'lit. It wou1d l"• to • C'E! \YhPre this \vrctchcd 1.i).flll <'CHlt'" in, and wh t vahw it i;:. if 1 Statf' can. of it~ own fr::o will. ~oad auother £500,000 on to its 11ational debt.

\"\~hc'n i:ti-r(_)duc-ing a Bilt ~·cstC'rdnY tk·dinr. with the super land f'·tx. the Tr0asurer said thnt tlw finar:cittl no--ition had !.!.'UH~ yprv tnnch to the \\ lrse'. That is true. and I r(_•alisP it. T a m g·ol1 1' to f'UT pPrt the GoYcrn­JncHt in f"'YCl'vthil!g r::ece: .. -arv ro ~2."Ct the kc<"'l of tlL' ~hip ~f St·atc oncf' ~non: -on a lcYcl, ,,nd I "ill t. kc lllY full share of the bla•nc: lntt tlw Gm·cmDH;nt must Eot haYe it both wa:·,:;. rrhe,v must not. bring- down the nrgu-ltl('Ylt. ,_ \Yn f~id thi4. and W•"' djd that, ;:lthough it wns ilftaln:-:.t our po1icy or pro­QT.fLlllH10 when \Yf' canH~ in)'' nnd Hwn ron­

tinut thjo;, sort of thing b:'l w:in thP rrr::.-n· m::>nt, 'It ,~,as p:-nt of our progrannnc." or that it \Yas a sug-gestion frorn the Beef C.tttle Industr'i CorlunisPion scYernl ·.ears ng-o. The tn;th of the whole thlrlg j., 1hnt we have got the financial a.nd f'Conon1ic \Yagon borged. This is a grnnd countrv. \Ve have tho most ocnntiful fannin~g and stork country that I ha,rc P':er ~l'C'n. and we ~ ill g·0t thP \Y<1i!nn ont. The /H oplc ,\"in srt~ th8t it is got 'out: bat thc7 want l'o makP sn:·e first th:1t theY will b,, able to say, "NeYE.'r again!" ·The first t-hing is lo gf't the wagon out nr~d get things on a sound ftnanci.al footing·. and then see that \VC do 11ot 1!,'0 hack again. ,V .. lu~n ,,",·e pull a bullock ont of the be;;· aucl '"0 put the Topo !'Ollnd its horns. ,,-c tnake sure that hP is nnlled to safr• ground and ,~ill not topple bnck ag-nin. It is no use ;1:-;kiJ1g pC'oplP to rnnke sacrifices aud to got off tlw top hampcl· --there is quite a lot of top lLP11[1('l' to ot off-and rtt the same time rmt an ext·ra load

Jl/£r. 1Yienholt.]

940 Abattoi,.s Agreement [ASSEMBLY.] Ratification, Etc., Bill.

on the en<:! of the wagon. That '' absurd and ridi~ulous. It is like a man in a very serious financial position who is paying an exorbitant price for his overdraft and being warned by his banker to reduce his over­draft to reduce his employees and increase their' hours. and at the s:tme time the said Plnployer buys a ne\v n1ot'or-car. This is not the time to put another penny of new debt on the Shllc. vVith thP big financial and economic storn1s breaking right overhead) the Premier should de~ide not to put an extra rwnny on the public debt of Queensland at this time.

Let me end up >Yith this-and this is more important CYOll tha a the Bill itself. I ask tho Premier if he is going to allow frer·dom of thourrht (o members of his party, and the Leader "of !'he Uppo,,ition if he is going to "llo·v freedom of thought to members of his rarty, on this meacure. B_,, freedom of thought I nH 2n the right to sneak, vote, and think quite openly on a question of this sort.

:\Ir. CoSTELLO: That will be done.

:\Ir. \YIE~llOLT: I am delighted to hear that; but it does not come from the Premier.

Tho PRE ~rER : y~ es, it does.

J\Ir. \VIEXHOLT: That is splendid. We now have the '>'{'l'Y thi11g that, IY(', want here. A measure of thi.o sort will be subjected w various opinions-hon. members will hold opinions either for or agn inst. LPt us Yote in that \Vav on thi.:5 and C'YCrY other nlPH:-;Luc

except· a v{;te of want of confldeneP or a vote of censure, and let a Govcrnrrwnt not need to resign unless a vote js taken either on a \-otc of ,,-ant of confidence or a Yote of ccn­;,nrf'. That i· all I 1vi~h to f.ay at this st'age. I de-,ire to it nln in that, so hr as I :ln1 rnr- l n. it her appro\·e, raUfy, nor c-,nfinn thi~; Egrcr-rncnt.

0PFO~~TTTOX ::-,Tf:)IDERS: lJcal', hear!

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. Goclfn•y l\1or::;an, Jlurilla): I would like to refer to one or hYo matters referred to by thP hon. n1en1ber for Fa.ssiff'rn, especi* allv to his statement that the Govcrnm8nt desire to substitute a board of manag-em~nt for tho abattoirs in place of the \oresent highl.v conlTolled system of management by Swifts. The remarks of the hon. member \Vorc based on altogether ViTong prcmisf's, bcc,'luso thC' GoYen11nent are proYiding that the abattoirs s.hall only make provioion for the slaughtering of cattle, and do not propose to t-mhark on an:'i-7 systc~1n of n1arkcting the rroduct~, '.vhicll is a 1110 t irnportant factor. The hon. member oug-ht to know that this board doe: not intend to deal with, buv, or market a.n.v product in any shape or forrn. \V c arc c-oing to en tor into an agrcernPnt with Swifts to slaughter 40,000 cattle for a period of ten year" on their behalf. \Vc Jo not intend to interfere '' ith Swifts in market­ing thc:ir products OYf'rsc,-ts or in any othr::r part of the "-orld. They are at libcrtc· to n.so th(_'ir o-.vn organisation for the manu­facture' and marketing of their produds­frozen OJ' c-hlllcd mo:-\t, a:-; the t.aSf' n1a · bo. To '-av that the Govennncnt intend to ctnbal'k on those aYctnH'') of indnstrv ls "tn'trl1ing it very rnuch indeed. The 'hon. membc·r must know that all we iutend to do is to rr wide for the slaug.htering of cattle. etc., in thce;e works. The establishment of "bottoirs will tend to cheapen trcfttmcnt costs, because at the present time Swifts arc

[Jlr_ tl'icnholt.

able to operate only for a few months in each year.

:\ir. Km WAN: That applies to all meat,­\,~orks.

The SECRET AE Y FOE RAILWAYS : The works when operated by the board controlling' the abattoirs, will be kept r';'n­ning continuously all the year round, whwh will result in continuity of work for the emnlovees. There will be no cos ,ation of op~rations throughout the year, although in :-:orne u1onrhs it rnay occur that the numb~r of calves, pigs, and sheep slaughtered whll be ,rn-eater tha,n in other months. Those b1g works, which cost in the yicinity '?f £1.000.000, will be kept continuously m operation the whole year. Under such con­cl'tions W<' shall be able to slaug.hter much cheaper than S1Yifts can flt the present ruomont. That fact ha~ already been recog­ni,cd bv the firm controlling the Redbank mcatwoi·ks. It is one of the most energetic firms a.nd at its head is Mr. Angliss, who, llcrh~ps, possesse"' the greatest ability in that particular calling of any man in Aus­tralia. "Notv:ithstancling that "Mr. Angb6s Js interested in the Redbank meatworks, so satisfied is he that abattoirs will c.heapen the cost of slaughtering and treating cattle and sheep that l1e inteLds to have the whole of the c 1ttle and sheep whJCh are now ,]aughtered at Hedba:>k .slaughtered _at th_e abattoirs. 1\Ir. Anghss, therefore, rs evi­dently satisfied ~hat the establishm<;nt ;>f abattoirs will bnng about a reductwn m slaughtering costs. and that the- costs ~,11 be lower than is the case at Eedbank, wh1ch he intends to close down, and enter into an arrangement with the board to slaughte1· a ccrtail1 number of cattle and sheep annu­allv. That is the opinion of 2. man of the 1 bility of Mr. Angliss, and.} feel sure that the hon. member for Fassllern m•1st knmY and admit t.hat Mr. Angliss possesses. t~e greatest ability of any man in Anstraha m the slaughtering and treatment of cattle, sheep, arid pigs.

The hon. mcrnb r for Fassifcrn talked about an a1natr tr board. !-fe doh' not know vvho tho members of tlw honrd will be. \Y <:; can ha,~e the ntanag·cr of t!Jc ~P 'iYorks DPI10lntcd a:-; a :mernbcr o'f the~ lwn.rd, if we so desjre. \Yhc·n the hon. nH•mbPr talk~ about an ,'1n~atcur board, hn know::; nothing about .it. l!t• i: simnl? n1rking \vild stat0mer.L; which _.re not likclv to be borne out by facts; and

is not the rig-ht and proper thing to do at th1s nlor-· _nt. I-:Ie should \Yait and "PP tJre conF'J'iitjon of the boctrd before mnkinQ' such 'n·nutrks. If the hon. n1crnbrT· h ul hi.s v,a,· and put his ]Oolicy into opera­tion th:' · ~ hole ('Ountr~.· wonlJ br~corne -: g~u'lnt.~ I~ndt>r it no ]lrogrf'·:) 1~-ould be m·,rJ<'. (Opposition laughter.) The hon. ll1( ntbC'r for Fa:---:.ifC'rn does not b0lrcvc nJ

IIc belieYes that the whole remain stagnant, ami thd no

should be registered. I wonld point that although a man may

ont. if he can fmd a 1-vay of mooe that will ptOV(' profitablE i· his cluh- to inY<'St that money.

So, to~>. with the P:tatc. which rna~~ bt• in tl'mnoran· difficulties If the StatP can find n ~~-a~- Of invc t1ng n1onc_--:· that will bo p1 ofltFJlJle to it, ., nd v.r111 ass 1st jn its dcYclop­ment_ then it is the dut:· of the Gm-crnment of the State to do whJ.t they think best in thtJ mnttcr. 11articu1arly if thev feel sure, <J:' \Ve do, th tt the re~mlt will be~ satisfactorj

Abt;tloiTs Agreerm-nt [12 SEPTEMBER.] Ratification, Etc., Bill. 941

for the future of this great State of ours. Speaking as a cattleman, I s!L:.· quite deJi­nitely that this new venture will be beneficial not only to the cattlemen but to cYery individual in the State. I defy the hon. member for Fassifern or any hon. membo:· to condemn the· proposal once he h:~; seen the Bill; which, to my mind, Is almost perfect.

Mr. DtcNLOP: Like your railway super­.nnnuation scheme,

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: So good is tho sup2r;:tnnuation schmno that I intend to put it through this House, whether the hon. member likes it or not. I am satis­fied that in that instance the people con cernc l will benefit, just as in the mattet• non? undt•r discussion I ~an satidl0d that a benefit will accrue to the State bv the action we arc taking. I support the Bill, and will do m, best to see that it is put into effect.

Mr. POLLOCK (Grcr1ory): The hon. mem. bcr for Fae'' jfcrn n1ade n particularly fine <>pcech-(GoYPrnnlcnt lau7htcr)-not because he ha}lpencd to ngreo with m,tny of the points I had hoped to make. but b'ccause he made ull of the points much better than I could have hoped to make them.

Gonm:oJEXT ME:IJBERS: \Ve agrc0 with that. (Laughter.)

:\Ir. l'OLLOCK: The similes of the hon. lllPtnbr-r. for Fa''>ifyrn \VCrc Yer:,~ telling, and should haYe conYU1cecl those hon. 1nen1bers \Vho are half-hearted on tLs qucction that we a l'(' entitled to g-et some further jnforrnation before committing ourselves to the purchase of thrse works.

::-,Ir. I(EXNY: Don't vou belie~~-, in tb; principle of abattoirs? ~

:1Ir. POLLOCK: I bolic1·e in th;, principle of centralised killing. I have alwan believed in that princiJ?IP; but the question an~1ng rw_w 1s one wh1ch has not yet bed1 'atJsfadonly answered-that is, as to tbc bellefit the consumer and the producer are to get out of the expenditure at th·3 prc:"lcnt time of £528.000.

~I r. 13 CTLER : They are not spending £528.0°0; theY are not spending one -hi! ling.

:1-fr. rt~.\SE: Y~ou are responsible for it.

The Cl-L\IHMAN: Order:

1\Ir. PDLLOCK: £528,000 \\ il] be spcnt--

1\Ir. BL"l'LER: rrho a,rnount will bo spent ,o ._-er t·wcnty years.

~Ir. POLLOCK: \\'hat doGs it matter what the period is? It is the money that will bo ~pent _in acqui_ring the:se works. (GoYcrn­tncnt mterruptwn.) Mr. Robcrt,. this used to be a Charnbor where a rnan J could put the c tso for his constituency without inter­ruption. I hope it i-" going to Le that now. I hnYc no objection io intorjectio.!JS: but no !:on. member shonld be allowed to talk above

hon. rnomber who is trying to make ca~e.

::.1 r. \Y .-\RRE~T : You a re the ·worst offender in the~ House.

:\lr. POLLOCK : I rrm a constant inter­:.:ctor, but only "hen an hon. member waits foi~ it.

:\h. \Y.',TIREX: You are the worst offender.

The CHAIRMAX: Order!

1\Lr. POLLOCK: However, if it takes me a ·week, I will say· what I ha Ye to say.

The CHAIRJ\L-\~: Order:

Mr. POLLOCK: Thank you, 1\Ir. Roberts. You will sec that it is necc'8ary for me to r;,:_•ceiYe protection.

The CHAIR!\l:AN: Order : The hon. member is largely responsible himself for the interjections. If the hon. member will [;O on with his speech and leaYe tho rest to tlH', the job will be done.

J'.lr. l'OLLOCK: I would remind you, ~lr. Hobcrts--

The CIL~IR!\L\X: Order :

:'Ir. POLLOCK: I "as taiking of inter­ruption~. J\Jr. llobcrt~.

The CHAIRMAN: I want no reminder all; I ·.vant the hon. member to cominue sveech.

:Hr. POLLOCK: Thank you, :,lr. Tioberts.

The CHAIRl\IAN: Order ! Order !

::i~r. POLLOCK: I would remind yoll---­

Tho CHAIR!\1AX: \Yill \he hon. member re·umo his scat: I want to ·ay that I ohall not gi Ye the hon. member a further chance. I ask him now to contimw his speech, and I will see that he gets what he is asking for.

l\Ir. POLLOCK: That is all I dcsire. The question lve have to decide in COL.:>ideriPg the desirableneBs of introducing this Dill is this: Are the consumer and the producer going to get the value that the Uovornment are forced to pay for the-'e meatworks? That is a fair question. It is a question that tl::w Premier will haye to answer at the second reading ~tage. Some of the things obviously that the public will get out of the pmchaso of tht se n1cntWOL(S are thc;;e: Th8V \vill get protection in the forrn of a .supcfvi6ion of the moat supply that the public are con­suming. How much is that "orth? Is the

. added protection they are going to got-the added suvervision and prm·entwn of killing beasb unfit for hnrna.1 consurnption a~ a result of centralised killing as against partial protection t.he public got from pri n.te slaughter-yards-suffici0nt to warrant the C'<penditure of £528.000? At thi;; stage of the proceedings we are asked to consider the desirableness of introducing a DJ!! to acquire or ratify the purchase of these works. Therefore, if \Ve are goiL6 to give :m intelligent Yote upon the question of ratifying that agreement, \Ve ought to know what advantal!cs the public are going to get ot. of the works.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS : You will get th"' on the second reading.

Mr. POLLOCK : I am asking for the infm"nation now, so that at the s•)cond read­ii,lg stage the Premier may give to the House and to the public, who haYe some righte, the information desired. In every direction the Co\·ernrncnt are reducing wages.

Only yesterday they rcmoYed a large number ef people from the ambit of the Industrial Court so that wage' can be reduced still further by employers in tho rnining and pastoral industries. I arn using th~t as an illmtration to 6how that it is done because the Governn1ent say sheer neces,ity is driving the Government. The argument on every hand is that they would

Jlr. l'ollock.]

842 [ASSE'\IBLY.J

not do these unpovu1ar things if it wprc not bl'Cansc of the huge amount of cxpendih1r~'=: loaded up by the previous Government, v:hich has forced them into this position. I argue, and t.he hon. member for Fassifprn rig,htl:> argued-and no man can dispute his argument-that, when the Government are taking from the wage \Yorkers of this com­munity money that is nec•cssary to keep the bodies and souls of their families together, it is a very bad time indeed to add to the public deht another £528,000.

This brings me to this point-that the Loan Council arrangcrnentc. arc such that, if Queensland expends £528,000 of loan money on the purchase of abattoirs, she will receive that much less Lom the Loan Council.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL W.\Y~: That is not true. This is a sale vf debentures-quite a different proposition.

:\lr. POLLOCK: It is a proportion of the loan expenditure of the Government, as arranged by the Loan Council; therefore, from every point of view from which you look at it, there is no possible shadow of douht t.hat the expenditure of this money will mcnn ll lllC!'Ca;,,d intcrcot bill. If the protestations of the Government are to be relied upon, 'iVD are to have greater econo­mies and the gradual removal of eoJcguards like the Industrial Court from the wurking p•:ople so that the Govcrument can pay their wa~, antl pa.v interest ~nd rodcmption-\vhich is to be over a period of twenty years ir,

this inetance-at the expense of ll2 noon] ( hc pcopil' of this State who have

to work for a, living. Therefore, is it not obvious that, if t.hc Government continue to argue th;tt all their econon1y citl,, all Leir rctrenclcrnonts, all the thiugs they aro doing n1ainly to working pco11le, ar·~ being doue ber:ause of the stern ncr.;es~ Eit" of tho t1na.ncial position, tlH'J cannot lJL' n:gard0::.l as s:tH 're'!

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: You are no, garne to vot~ aguin:3t it, ali the sanH'.

~\lr. POLLOCK: How does the hon. mem­ber kuow tlwt ·: }:[p will fi1:d out ,vhat l an! prepared to do when the t!rno conH'S. (Govcrnrnc __ t laughter.) The hon. 111Cn1ber will E11cl thu~ there arc quite P nurab0r of peup1c p_r_,_'pa rd to voto .ag·ainst this Bill ulJle J t.he qu .;;tJons IYC' ha Ye a -ked are <lll:-)Wt'l'L'd tl .1rou~.~·hly. \ t the present tin1e I carllrf_:t s~:;e----<nHl tl:o Pn•wier ha~ not shown nw-that thc,-e is oufticied justificcttion for the cxpc_udit'urc cf ihi £528,000 of public ruoncy.

The St:,_'Rl-:TARL FOH. n '·JL\YAYS: \Vait till thJ second re:.· dl :1g.

'\lr. ['(iLLOC:\:: Tlw Premier said that at t:H( v ~·y Ol!L-L:t the kllling, ~')Sts will be rt·uuceu--at.C\ 1 aur not breaKing no1v onlv u bnut the cco~lOlnics of tho industry, bat ar;r

to deal with t .t<' Bill-he said costs would rednccd b\

as the br'cwcr;, 70.(, ,Q catt:c a vcar. He

not giYo to the 'Con~urner, hecau~c \Yt' could not pnt Oll or take it off the co,;;;t of u pound of 1ncat., <Jnd thr:rc is a ?-!OOd dcu l to be said for that. On Uw other ll<lJHl \'--~ cat:nct g·jve: ,.l~ty n1uch to the pro­ducPr j£ jt lo:: only a n1ntter of 6d. per lb., bPC''l_Usc~ nut. of t1wt js going to come somo­buJy'" cut Lf'fcn·c~ the prcduccr gets his sh.'rc. Ob;·ioll' ly. jlldging from what the Premier ~aiel, tht·r' · not going to be YOr"'".r n1uch sav­ing t·o eithf'r the producer or the consumer o£

[Mr. Fullock.

the mc"t. If neither of these people L going t!) gc-~ any great advantage out of the Bill, ''"ho is?

'YT r. BUTLER : They are going to get an ud,-antage.

Mr. POLLOCK: '!_'hat is "het I want to know. That is wh" I c nnot brii1g myself to vote for the introduction of this Bill until I know what advanblge the public arc going to get out of the expenditure of £528,00J of public money. Surely !hat is a fai, ques­tion! Sun?lv we should not be asked to vote for the desi1:ablcncss of introducing a Bill of this kind until we are con,-inced that it is desirable!

:i\Ir. CoSTELLO : Did. you ask those que- tions wh<'n your Government purchased cattle t:tations?

l\Ir. POLLOCK: Yes-in the right place. I \Vas onr of thr~ three or four rnernbers vrho strongly opposed the purchase of cattle statlons.

:\Ir. CosTELLO : I congratulate you.

:\fr. POLLOCK: I ask the same ql!estions now. 'rho GoYernrncnt aro not prepared to allow Hl'gotiations in a rnattcr of this kind t'o come bdore Parliament .eo that v, ~ can unc1r·rstand tlw mClttor and agr('O to the pur­eh -:>.se, and not bo called upon merely to tatify the agrc-_•rncnt after th{' purchase is rnade.

1Ir. EnwARJk: \Yhy cliclJ,'t you oppose the purchase of State stations ou the floor of the House?

:\Ir. POLLOCK: I ask the hon. mcncbcr \Yhv he and other n1cmbcr:::, IYho ·wont round J:hi~ House sa""7in£r lhev ,,·ere' in favour of ha,-ing arbitrati~n rct"aincd bv the public servants did not vote on that quc·ctior. "hen "''' raised it in the House the othel' da:,.

:VIr. Eowmos: I told you why.

1\Ir. POLLOCK: No; they just accepted the cr.1c 1

;: of the Prernicr"s 1-'·hip; and natur­ally any IU;Jl1 under tlu; present fonn of party pol1ti'~·~ clo.~s tho ~8lDn thi .g. I sav Ycrv ddinitclv that the to the pnblic haYC vnot yPt iJCt''l1 bv the Premier. He hrts told us the ~f the

how the wmks arc tc be purchased: debentures aro be paid for the

~ ilie fur se of

t·o be utilised in rPuovating thG works. told us of the hizh rate of interest vn

D1U"WY to be paid bv the Goyernment on aC('OnEt ··Jf the purchase and construction of

: lmt h' 11as not told us of the benefit the public or any c::ction of the public

to g-et from the purchase of these ,, orks. That is -,ll that l'arli:nn'-'nt and the public rC'qnirc to kno\v. I arn not going tO say,

·l ncYcr haYc either r,rinltr-ly or publicly f'aid, the things about S\vift<;:.' n1e:1t rork:3 tr .. ~.t· people outsid(~ have said ab1ut the GGYt~l'l!!11''l1t's purchase. I do not bclicvo­

o£ thern; but I do ~lV that thr·;c nicat­haYc be~·n l1'11YkC'd around in an

·on_:_~ to sr•ll th01n to anv GovcrnmC'nt that-.' ns preparc:1 to bc•y them. That

truth. An rndcaYour was made to sell them to us

\ ben vvc \Ycrc a Governrnent. An endt'1Your­was made tn sdl them to the Brisbane City CounciL It ".rs well known that thr prc·,cnt OViTners of th(~ !n~ah,:orks ha :c been losing on them during the past few years. I do nol

Abat.'oirs _-lyn nun~ [!:.? SEPTEMBER.] I?utijicatt'un, 117tc., llill. 943

wish to flattel· the hon. mornLer for F'assi­fern · Lut I do want to ay that he made one ~f the moot telling poiuts in this debate "hen he said that. if these people, with their world-wide organisation and efficient methods of rnanagernent, could not rnako a profit, no beard >\8 might appoint would have any chance of doing so. (Government inter­ruption.) Hon. members opposite can howl as much a-. they like. These arc my opmwns of the Bill and this is the place to state them. I ask the Premier or any member of the Covcn1n1cnt who can give tho rca~ons fot· which I han' asked in favour of the purclucso and in fayour of the Bill to let us have then1 so that 'vo rnay grYc Intelli­gent votes on the question.

illr. DULCOCK (IJarcoo): I listened with a grc ·:t deal of attention to the Premier's introductory rornarks. For sorne tirno \Ye ha Ye been thirsting for information in rcfer­r•nce to this proposal) and the Prernier's ren1arks this rrrorning arc tho first iuforrna­tion wo ha Ye b( en able to get. A princ~ple is inYol\ cd in this question which r·equrr:es ~onJe l:onsiJcration. \i'~T e hold that Parha­lll<'llt is a deliberatiYo body, and should not Le called upon merely to ratify scmething that th<J Executive of this Parliament has done. in other words, we should not be a:-.kcd to pass judgrnent on the rnerits of a prupo~al to purchase these rucai works after tbat course has been agreed upon. \Vh:'t we arc being asked to do, and what we Will lw compelled to do against our wishes, is to ratify something that the Pn;mior and the Cabinet have done.

:\Ir. BLACKLEY: Havo you not done the "mw thi,Jg in the past?

Mr. BDLCOCK: Ko. If then' is one fundamental principle underlying parlia­wentary practice-and possibly Jt Is the principle that can be. advanced for the main­tenance of our parban1entary Instituti~:ms­n is Pnrliarneni's control oyer expcndrture. Here wo find that Cabinet has decided to do a certain thing. \V e arc asked, not to n urec to the purchase of the nu'atworks, but, i.~ effect, we are required to give our ratift­vation to a docunrcnt on 1,1·hich the parchase i.::; ba•cd and to an agreement which has nlrt:<..ulv been cntcre l into. That is a tnost ri diculOu:J position; and the n1ost ridiculous t hi no' in it js to a~k Parliarrrcnt to do a t·hin:; thJt the Government have already cl('tc~mincd :hall be done. .t\.s a 1nattcr of

the Cabinet haYe alrcadv taken the which is nec~csarv to translate their iutJ effect. "

On the general question of the purchase of these n1eatworks there i..; room for a big di~pal'iiy of opinion. Any. nran \vho ~as o'i,·nn attention to the quo· t1on rnust reah·,e ~hat, there :-,hould bo son1o centralised s-:.,"'stmn of killing of domestic Hl!Jplics in Queens· lond; but nobody thought that it would be tJC'<>:ssary, nor did anyo · ever conten1plate that tlw Government would be so short­~ightod-to put tho b~;:,t possible constrncbon on it-to engage in interstate and ovors~a~

The argument in favour of a~att?ll';:. ; cs:entiall· an argurnent for the distnbu­

t ion of l10aithy, hygienic meat supplies for t!I,; people in the bigger centres of popu­larcon. I£ we lJring the question down to t'.at basis-and that i:5 the only basis upon "hi eh any Government should approllch the question-we shall be automatically able to eliminate any consideration of interstate or oncrscas trade. On the quc.,tion of centraliced

donte' tic killing thoro can be no difi1 rence of OJrinion. Anyone who has given the mo_,t cur..ory attention to the question must bo convinced of the necessity for centralised killing for that purpose, carrying with it, as it doPs, adequate moat inspection. The co-t o£ doing that should not be overwhelm­ing, and should be-could easily be-borne by the consuming public; but. when you find intermingled with it a project to send moat to the other States and overseas, you must naturally view the question with a good deal of suspicion.

, Let us examine this adjunct of the ques­tiOn-overseas and mterstate trade.

\Ye know that the O\ersea. meat trade is a most precarious business \Ve know that dur­mg tlH' past few years it has been surrounded with diilicultics that the best beains in the cattle world have not been able to overcome \V e know that Argentina is doing certai~ t!ungs that we are not able to do. We know, in addition, that the demand to-day 1.., !~n· sn1.a1l carcasses, "\vhich we are not pro­ducmg. \V e know the difficultie.s of oversea shipment as a result of being located so far h-om the markets of the world; and in that ryspect onr difficulties. are greatly intensi­frcd when comp,trcd With thu difliculties of other exporting countries.

Mr .. HGTLER: \V hat has that to do with <t Lattoirs Y

)Jr. BliLCOCK: The hon. member for Port. Curtis has nrPat\vorks in his own o1cc­tol'a te: Those works were furrnod on a co~opcr'--'ti q) .basis, but that co-operative b8.sis faded, an_d 1t was. necessary to adopt some other basis to mamtam the works.

:'vir. BuTLER: They are the best meat works .end the most economically conducted in Queensland.

Mr. BDLCOGK: The hon. member says ~?· but they faded on a co-operative basis. lhe .orgamsatwn that faiL'd in his electorate disclosed the wcaknes~cs that caused its failure; and the GoYcrnment are now asking the llt'OfJle of Queensland to adopt a prin­Ciple wh1ch the hon. mcm ber for l'ort Curtis knows faikcl in his O'nJ constituency. Yet he

1IS gomg to s1t behmd the Government,

anc1 I· going to Yote for the perpetuation of a system that demonstrated it had only 01w capac.ity, and that '"as capacit v fo·r fnilme. \Ye know quite we!! that t:lwifts '\ l~re nnable to corHluct their oporatio.ns Sltercs•,fnlly. \':e know that for a number of years their operations n>;ult•·d in a loss. ''; L ::nDw that the works were hawked around to ev-ery possible and every impossible buyer in the Stcctc. \Vc know that the works could '1a1 e be' n bought at auy time during the 1)nst f1ve ~,cars.

Mr. Bl'1'LER: Could the works have been purchased for £380,000?

:'llr. BULCOCK: I will deal with that phacc and with thc hon. member before I concindc•. Swifts will have the right to kill a certain number of cattle per annum-40,000, according to the Premier-or the ('fJuivalcnt ~n qthcr stock. I-icro you havo a b1g orgarnsation-huge 111oatvvorks rcpre­~enting a big initial capitalisation-which ,,,,nnot be made to pay. The Swift diroc· tors \vould say, " If we cannot make the \Yorks pay, we \vill not boar the whole cost in regard to this particul:.1r undcrt--._king. "~hat is wrong with getting the Govern­ment to make the public of Queensland bear some proportio:> cf th:s cost'!" In other

JJlr. Bulcock.]

944 Abattoirs Agreement [ASSEMBLY.] Ratification, Etc., Bill.

word,, the:~ propo,c to reduce their killing costs. ~w1fts arP saying, in effect. "Let the people of Queensland take this over, and we will acquire a :;pace in which to kill. and will save rr1oncy on th0 proposition. We should be relieved of a plant that is of little va]u·c so far as future y0ars an• C0:1-

cerned.j' It is a well-known· axi01n in tht: meat trade that under ab a tloi r killiq;­oporations a plant becomt s ob ')kte in a very few ycari'>. rrho period of ob~olPSl'C'~H~ is becoming ntoru restricted every yl'al' OIVJng to ne1v invention::; in regarJ to trcatnH'IH <llld carriage of nH:at. Tho vrescnr systcn1 of refrigeration which is in u~e in Swl[tB, and which will be the system in OpNation b:c the board with certain modiii .-tl iollS and expenditure, ls rapidly bcconting ob~o]et~._•. Then~ are new systen1s of rctrigc ration: which allow the meat to be phcPtl on tile .tllarket in an Cjltirelv diff(~rcnt condition-­a svstC'ln which has lnoro to rccomnH .. )nJ it tha\1 the pre~rnt sy:;tom-a ~ystcm thctt pw duces meat that cannot be cJdpctcd from fresh n1eat-a svstem that does 110t cau~t~ the rne .. ct to brcR.k do-wn in ti~~ul' aEcl ernit the Bucculcnt j uiccs vd1cn cooked-~a syste111 or sysb~rns that arc going to sv.'cep ;be world. They will be the only syotem', that will t,,, accepted in mcatworks in the futun•. \Ye have tl1c Gon:>rnJHent now lH'Opo~iug to buy an ob.soletc plant--a rofngeratiug that can deal with the rnellt o't!Y flll

obsolete way--a s.) .:;tcnl that \'rill soun di·t trded almc.Jt PLcirely by progr·· n1eat companies.

Swifts arc gaini11g ,.Yerythlng in re-gard to thi:::; agreement. The~, stand to lose 11othing. They Ul'r) coni~·0rving their ovYn interests in regard to canning. They haYc certain kill­ing righLs, which are being conserved under this Dill. I say most emphatically that tho conservat~on of their ·rights jn regard to can­ning and tho conservation of their rights in regard to killing are just about equal to the volume of their trade during th0 bot fc•w years.

Mr. COSTELLO: \Yhat is wrong with that·:

Mr. BULCOCK: In effect, they are being relieved of thei-r entire expenditure by throwing an obsolete plant upon the hands of the Government. llnd so long as the Go­vernment operate that plant they will be the peojlle to gain a big benefit under the agn•e­ment.

The who!~ historv of Swifts and ArrnotH~ is a story of meat' diplomacy and intrigue. Some of the greatest scandals of public life in the United States of America have been associated with Swifts and Armours in the conduct of tho meat business in that country. One of the most sce1sational books ever pub­lished was Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle,'' and wo must not forget that among the principal characters in that book arc the principals of this firm to which Parliament is now being forced to hand over £500,000 of public money.

There is another very strong objection that I have to this particular rnatter, and it is this: I maintain-and I think it is commonlv recognised in all countries in tho world which are progressing in thought~that the killing of meat in a given aroa is cssent1ally a local problem, and sh~uld be vested in. the lo~al authority responsible for the admm1stratwn of that 'particular area. That is a principle that is v.ell established, more particularly in Germany where they have brought this ques­tion of ~eat inspection and distribution up

[Mr. Bt~lcock.

to a higher perfection than any other country in the world. The whole of Queens­land will have to foot the bill in this regard. Hon. members opposite have attempted to nm away from this question, Those hon. members would have us believe that Swifts are selling this concern, and there is no obligation on the State in regard to it. Hon. members opposite have told us time after time that these abattoirs will not bo a State enterprise. If they arc not to be a State enterprise, where does the State stand in rcgurd to the matter? Has not the State to 111cct the rnaturing debentures?

:\1r. DucKLEY: Not necessarily,

:\Ir. BFLCOCK: If the State has to meet the n1aturing debentures, it is a State enter­prise. If the State has to meet the maturing debentures vvith respect to these works, then the State is responsible, and in the final analvsis tlw cou o]idatpcl rt'YC'lllte will haYc to f~ot the bill.

}Ir. \VATIREK: \Vi!! the securitiH run a\Yay?

~\ir. DL:LCOCK : The hon. member knows quite \Vcll that there is a distinct dcprecia­tion~moro rapid than in .any other nlant-in a mc"t plant. The dcprcc ·ation in Swifts and all othrr big canning plants is alarming in the cxtr,•me. For the information of hon, members, I would point out that Swifts in America, and Argentina 'regard the efficient life of ono of their plants at fifteen years, and this particular plant has been Oi1erating for more than fifteen years. If you >tpply the ]JO!ic_v adopted by theqe people in .Arncrica in recipcct of t1ns plant, then it ehculd have b<'en cli~cardcd at the end of ftftcon years. 'l'hat shows that the principals lJl'"JSt intlruatct concC'rnccl. on the applic:1tion of their o'n1 theory, should h 1ve thrm'"ll this plant straight on the scrapheap. Yet the Government, like the dumb-driven animals whieh will be slaughtered at these works, haYe been driven into this contractual obli­gation.

The hon. member for Fassifern has asked hon. members to exercise independence of thought in regard to this matter. What hope is th•_re of hon. members opposite exercising any independent thought in this matter when the historv of it is this: Cabinet submitted the matte~ to caucus; caucus took all day to discuss it~obviously some members of the GoYcmmcnt Part>: were obdurate; and obviouslv some members of the party requi reel" to be convinced of the necessity of this a--reemcnt~and then adopted it. It was only necessary to com·ince a majority of the hon. members.

Mr. KENNY: You arc speaking from experience.

Mr. BULCOCK: A majority of the GoYernment members have apparently been convinced in this matter, A delay took place in the introduction of this Bill-a delay ,,-hich is wdl understood bv any person who is acquainted with parliamentary practice. The pooition is that a majority of the morn, bc•rs of tlw Govm·nment Party agreed to the purcha·- c of these works. An agreement was rhen entered ir:to, >tnd it did not matter abouL the minority. I venture to say that, if hon members opposite were free from the tram­mels of party and '·ere free to cast their Yotos along the lines of their convictions, and would support hon. members on this sido and dei\nitely .-ote a;rainst this Bill at >t\1 its stages, then the Government would bo

Abattoir• Agreement [12 SEPTEMBER.] Ratification, Etc,, Bill. 945

defeated on this particular issue. (Govern­ment interruption.)

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! :Ylr. BULCOGK: Hon. members opposite

know that what I am saying is true. (Government dissent.)

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! }'[r. BULCOCK: In regard to one phase

of the question, the Premier indicated that the three distinct branches of operation are to be kept financially independent, and that one is not to loaf on another. Let me show the position that will arise. First, let us consider the domestic killing. We know that wherever a centralised system of abattoirs ha' been established the cost of meat to the consumer has been increased. At a later stage I propose to submit some con­parative costs to bear out my statement that the centralisation of killing in an expen­sive abattoir must necessarily lead to a higher price being paid by the consumer per 11ound of meat. I will admit that the public can be burgled in this regard. A board is to be created to estimate the requirements of the public; but the requirements of the public can easily be estimated in half an hour by the officers of the Department of Agriculture. We know that the board will base its charges on tlie amount of meat required over the area it will serve. It is not a very difficult matter to do that. Any child can determine those prices so that they would show a profit in respect of that particular matter.

Now we come to the overseas or export trade, which we know is more likely to show a loss than it is to show a profit.

:!1/Ir. BUTLER: Who is going to lose?

Mr. BULCOCK: The Premier has as,ured us that the profits from the domestic killing are to be used for the reduction of killing costs generally. \Vhen there is a loss incurred in regard to. overseas trade, what is going to be the position? The Treasury will have to meet that liability. (Government dis­sent.) That is the point to which I wish to get hon. members opposite. It is inferred from their dissent that the Treasury will not have to meet these liabilities. If that Is the case, then the liabilities will have to be met by the only other possible under­taking that can meet them-the domestic killing side of the business. (Government dissent.) The same thing might reasonably be applied to the interstate trade although possibly, if worked up, the interstate trade will be a profitable organisation. The fact remains that at least one of these activities is going to show a loss-namely, the export trade-and that will be su bsidisecl either by the .Treasury or by the consumer.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Absolutely wrong. You do not understand it.

Mr. BULOOCK: I understand it only too well, and that is the thing that is irritat­ing the hon. gentleman. who had to come to the rescue of his leader and make a specious pleas in this House 1n order to try to controvert the very reliable state­ments that were made by the hon. member for Fassifern.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: You don't know the Bill.

At 12.25 p.m., Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong), one of the panel

·Of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

1930-3 N

Mr. BULCOC'K: The Secretary for Rail­ways says that I do not know the Bill. I have asked questions in this House seeking information on the subject. I asked those questions because the Premier would not give us any information about it. The only time "e got any information in regard to the Bill was on its introduction. when the hands of Parliament are tied. 'The Premier has introduced the Bill, and says, " We are not going to repudiate a contractual obligation entered into by the Government." If every­thing was open and aboveboard-if every­thing could stand the closest scrutiny and investigation-why did the Premier not bring this Bill down before the agreement was entered into and ask Parliament to agree to the purchase, and not ask Parliament merely to agree to the ratification of the purchase? \Vhy was that not done? We are not asked to agree to the purchase; we are asked to ratify something the Premier has clone; and the circumstances are such that the man in the street is shaking his heacl and insinuating that the Premier-as ~he Treasurer very often insinuates-" Ah, If you only knew what I know in regard to this and other matters."

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: What are you insinuating?

Mr. BULCOCK: I am not insinuating anything. I am merely saying that the Go­vernment are introducing a Bill to ratify a thing that has been clone, whereas the proper course was to introduce the Bill ask­ing Parliament to express an affirmative vote on the desirability of purchasing Swifts' meatworks. There is a vast difference between the two, and a difference that I am very anxious to hear the Premier explain on the second reading of the Bill.

Question-" That the resolution (21£r. lfoore's motion) be agreed to "-put; and tho Committee divided:-

AYES, 30. Mr. Annand Mr. Kerr

Barnes, G. P. :llrs. Longman Barnes, W. H. Mr. Ma< groarty Blackley Maher Boyd Moore Butler Morgan Clayton Pderson Costello Roberts Deacon Russell, W. A. Duffy Sizer Edwards swayne Grimstone Tedman Hill Walker, H. F. Kelso Walker, J. E. Kenny , "'.,.arren Tellers: Mr. Butler and Mr. Costello.

NOES, 23.

Mr. Barber Mr. Kii·wan Bedford Mullan Bow O'Keefe Bra,·;sington Pease Bruce Pollock Bulcock Smith Dash Stopford Dunlop Wellington Hanlon Wienholt Hanson Wilson Hynes Winstanley Jones, A. Tellers: Mr. Bow and 211r. Bulcock.

AYES.

Mr. King Brand Carter

Resolved in

PAIRS. NOES.

Mr. Collins Conroy Cooper

the affirmative.

Mr. Bulcock.]

946 Federal Aid Roads [ASSEMBLY.] Agreement, Etc., Bill.

[12.30 )J.nt.] The House resumed. The TEMPORARY CxUIR~IA~ reported that the

Committee had come to a resolution. 1-\.osolution rq:!;r0ed to.

Fmsr READI::-iG.

The PR]liMIER (Hon. A. E. Moore, 1! ubiun!f) vre,ented the Bill, and moved-

" Th:tt t'he Bill be' now rea.d a first tin1c."

Question put and passed. Second reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for 'l'th·,day next.

FEDER\L .\ID ROADS AGREEMEC'\T APPROVAL .ACT (VARIATION OF AGREEMENT) APPROVAL BILL.

SECOXD READJ!><G.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS /HC?n· Godfrey Morgan, Jiurilla): This Bill B mtroducecl for the purpose of ratifying an agreen1ent entered into between the Prime J'.IiuistPr of the Commonwealth on behalf of tlw Federal Government and the Premier of QueenslunJ on behalf of the State. The agreement varie:J the agremnent made in 1926. allcl has been brought about because other States of the Comtnomvealth found it difficult to meet their commitments under the original agreement.

No doubt hon. members recall the fact that in 1926 the theH Commonwealth Govern· men.t decicle.d to impose a special tax with a VIew to raismg rnonev for road construc­tion pm·posPs; and an ag.reement was entered into between the Commonwealth and the States to the effect that for ten vears that tax would be collected bv the Commonwealth a: the collecting authoi~ity, and distributed to the States to the extent of £20,000,000, 01 at ihc rate of £2,000,000 a year. The Commonwealth thus agreed to return the grcfltcr portion of the taxation to the States the distribution to bo made on an area and population basis. Had it been decided that the fund should be distributed on the basis of population only, Queensland, being one of the smaller States in point of population, "oulcl have received a smallr.r amount than she is entitled to under the agreement. !Jnder this variation of the agreement there Is to be no alteration of the basis of dis­tribution. The money is still to be allocated on a population and area basis so that this State will continue to receiYe fr:om the Com­monwealth £376,000 a year.

It was provided in the original agreement that the States would subsidise these con­trib':'tions to the extent of 15s. for eYery £1 recmved from the Commonwealth, this sub­sid0· amounting, in the case of Queensland, t() £282,000 annually. This Bill ratifies an agreement which provides that in the future there will be no neces~ity for the States to subsidise the contribution of the Common­wealth Government to the extent of 15s. per £1 or to any extent whatever. I can say definitely that several other States, owing to financial difficulties, found that they could not continue to find the 15s. for every £1 provided by the Commonwealth, which it was necessary they should do in order to entitle them to the Commonwealth contribu­tion; and in that fact is to be found the reason for the varjation of the original agreement and the occasion for this Bill. I am glad to say that Queensland was not

[Hon. Godfrey Morgan.

in that position. Although we agreed to this alter a cion of the agreement in order to help the other States. we could have con­tinued to line! the 15s. In fact. we are ntaking provi~ion to that end; and I am hopi11g that in the near future and untjl t h0 agrrcnH1 llt expires ten and a-half years from its execution Queensland will be able to continue to find the 15s., and thus carry out the developmental work which is so necessary in different portions of this State. 'Whether that will be possible or not remains to be seen. \Ve cannot altogether forecast what is likely to happen in the next twelve months or the next two or three years; but we hope that we shall be able to con­tjnue the very progressi YO road construction policy which has been in opc'ration for ~everal vears. and that we shall be able to pursue !t until the expiration of the agree­ment at the end, probahly, of another RiX years. rl_lhe agreement ':rill expire in about ,ix years from the present time. ·

Mr. \V. Ji'ORGAK S~IITH: The whole question of transport requirer, review.

Tho SECRETAHY Ji'OE RAILWAYS: I quite understand that. As the country progresses and develops, "·e shall find that Yvhat is considered suitable to·clcty is probably obsolete in a few years. That ,.-ill mean that a eoHSidorable sum of moncv will be expended in introducill!:\' new and up-to-elate methods which in a few years later will probabl)·. in turn, become obsolete, and the State >,iil suffer consiclnablv because of th" additional co t incurred. •

The a<srecmcnt also provides that in the fnture tfro Commomn;alth Government will haYe no control whatever over the money gnmtccl to the various Sbtr". Prior to the ne"\Y agrccn1ent, it was nee~ ,.,sary for tho States to snbmit to the Commonwealth Go­vernment for their approval particulars of the class of road to be constructed; and the Commonwealth Government laid down the conditions upon v: hich the r.noney was. to bP expended. Upon the passmg of this Bill the quota of the States will be handed OYer to the respecii,·c States, who will then be at libPrty to expend the money in what~Yer wav thev desire without anv restrictiOns imposed 'by the Commonwealth' GoYernment. I feel sure that is a g-ood move. In the first plar,•, the Commonwealth Government imposed the petrol tax and collected the revenue therefrom; and their association with the matter should end therP, and the States should be free to expend the moneY in whatever manner they desire, provided it is utilised for the purpose for which it was granted.

Mr. W. FORGAN S:viiTH: There will now be no need to submit plans and specifications to the Commonwealth Government?

The SECRETARY Ji'OR RAILWAYS : 1'\o. The original agreement also provided that thD worlt was to be clone by contract wherever possible; but, when. the Bill is passed. it will not be imperative upon the State 'Government to call tenders. If we are of the opinion that c.ertain work .can be carrie.d out more economiCally and Will pro­vide a job of a more lasting natnre if car­ried out under the clay labour system, we shall have the right to have the work done bv day labour. The States will have great~r liherty to decide just how the money Will be expended.

Mr. W. Ji'ORGAN SMITH: What control will be exercised under the new agreement?

Federal Aid Roads [12 SEPTEMBER.] Agreement. Etc., Bill. 947

The SECRETAR'._ FOR RAILWAYS: The CommonFc'a lth Goycrnment \Yill exer­cise no control at all.

Mr. W. FoRG.\~ S:un'H: It will still be nece.,sary to submit certificates shmYing· that money has ben spent?

The SECRETRAY FOR RAILWAYS: That i" alL The State Go,·crnments will give an undertaking that the rnonoy will bo expended for the purpose for ''"hich it \vas provided.

Mr. KEXXY: That is the only condition?

The• SECRETAR\ FOR RAILWAYS: That is practicallv the onl-c condition. The agrcc~JCnt al>o pr-ovides that the money may be utilised m maintaining ro~ds already constructed. In some of the other States­-Victoria in particular-very large stuns of money have be0n cxpendeU upon roa,d con­struction; and the burden of tax-. tion has become so heavy that it is al--:o~t driving pe?ple from the land. Althoug-h the people enJo:- excellent roads, the taxCLiion imposed upon land vCL!ues to mCLintain those ro~ds has been so great as to rend0r the land almost vain<' less. The position i, wmewhat akin to that of the purcha.' "l' of new rnotor car. For two or three vcars car requires little or no cxpcndihi;,o, but after that period the tyres begin to show signs of Wf nr. ti10 alac>hllH rv e: ·ts out of order, nnd the f.'r is continua.lly' in the garage for repairs. \Yhich in ;::on1e C1scs it is uneco­non1ical to carry out.

It is the same with a road to some extent Aftc1· it h s been comtructed for three or fonr years, n. lot of mono has to be e-xpended to keep it in 1cpair. Then tht• trouble corn-

It IlPf:cL-> continual attC'ntlon. It the mo.Jc,- that has to b0 spent on repa.irs

to th~sc roads that is causin:;?; so n11lch con­cPrn 1n the Soutlwrn States. \Vc in Qucf'ns­land han• not reached that stage just yet; lmt. 1f \H' n re not careful. we chall reach i; before long.

_ Som<' of onr shires, especially those in the "i mth. took adyantagc of the scheme for the construction of maln roc.ds to such an extent thrrt the: "''" now approaching the Govern­ment for rf'lif'f frorn some of their financial burdens. \Yhih' the going was good, they secured a 11 the m one\ noc sible to be ex­pended in theil' areas. 'Other lot al authorities "'7hich wcr2 n1ore cautions and considerate to their ra~cpayers were not prepared to make nppltc:ttwn to the Main Roads Commission for the expenditure of considerable amounts of money on main Jnd developmental roads. They said that thPv would raise the taxation JH'Ce<sa n· for roads from the people who would benefit from them.

.Mr. KrRWA~: You are having the history ot guarant cod raJ! ways repeated.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILvYAYS: Some of the local authorities in the North \\ cnt full steam ah<>cd with the po!icv of constrnr+!ng main and deYelopn1enta.l rOads, and obta mer! every penny it was po--sible for t.hcm to obbin f0r. the purpose. To-dac- they ~1nd that the prrnCJpal and interest payments Pl respect of thatmoney are so g-rPat that they 'annat meet the1r responsibiliti0s, and they ar<> scekmg relief from the Government. Up to .the present I have refused to grant such reh:£. They haYe to stand up to their obli­gatwns. I have maintained that 'attitude t~roughout. They knew exactly what obliga­tiOns the,- were entering into at the time they made the agreement; and now, having

fe}l nt the money, the:- will havo to meet their obligations in tho sarne ''ay as the Government have to meet theirs. I have given full details of what is contained in the Bill, and I feel sure that it is likely to go through ,, ithout opposition from hon. mem­br rs opposite. I have much pleasure in moving-

" That the Bill be now road a second time.''

J\lr. \Y. FORGAX SMITH (Jiacl,a.y): 'This is a Bill of which I approve. Not only is it nece'<sary to ratify an agr 'ement entered into between the two Governments but the general prirciples in the agree1nenf are ···hat the late Secretary for Public Lands, )•Ir. DunstML stood for at the original con· fl~rence in 1926.

1t might be \vel! for me just to outline bricflv wmo of the historv of the Federal main, roads agreement. During the period when the Bruce-J?age Government were in .._JO\\ er, when thE. buoyant revenue largely ob+J.inod irorn customs and excise -~vas ttt its pt~ak, in'3t(~n d of reducing taxation or reduc­Ing cap1utl indcbtedne,, ;, the Government cn~J~1rkc·c1 on a polic.'.,r of giving largesse to the States. ,, ith the definite obj?rt of getting politica 1 support frorn the distribution; and w countlc. s different directions thev entered jnto wlwl \:as the proper {_i_omaiil of the State,,. They gare a grant to a State for a spec-ifH_, purpose, anc1 bv that nu)ans obtain?d some form of control "a~ purely State •:ctiYitJcs. I agree that thoro IS a necessity for a con1pl0rc l'Cf;Oll~truction of the FcclC'ral and StR.tc Constitutions. There is a necc~~-­~ity for 1 rc:o;tatmnent of Federal and s-;-:1te fun~ tions; but, \vhi1e the Constitutions 1~c1nain D 3 the:;~ arc at the present til:lc, I do not approve of one authorjtv er1tcring the domain of another for politic;,] reasons, a:':) ,uch action can only result in dual tax:l~ tron of tht' same people. A re,_ ,'llHL' 1 1riff obviousl:c is a tax on the people who JF8

Imported goods. It is not a prote-ctive tariff, Inasmuch --~s it doc:s not pr:.~vcnt tltc P'OOJ~~ coming in; but it is a form of raising revenue by taxing the people who u e those good:: ..

During the period in which this and other agrcmr1cnts were inalFruratod, the GoYcrn­rnent used that revenue' in various directions this being one. Thcr0 was this sli<"ht differ: ;\_p<:e i~n connection V.'jth the road agc-ef'nwnt: Iho Commonwealth, being the onlv authority which could tax petrol. made p;ym0uts to tlw States from the revenue raised· and that can be .rf:Jarded as a fair an(1 '-'ql;itable a rrangcment. With the development of motor ~.ranspor~ better roads "\vere required, involv­lllg a h1gher cost than was the case in the old days when we managed quite well with the bullock wagon, spring cart, etc. That cost of road construction was olwioush· too hca vy a charge for the local authorities' and the States had to use a different meth~d of iinancinr; such construction. \Ve in this State. first of all, put on the statuto-book the Main Roe.ds Act, which imposed a charge for motf}r registration. etc., the proceeds from w hJCh were used. for road construction, a_nd to some extent reheved the local authori· t1e' of a proportion of the ea pi tal cost of such road construction. The Commonwealth Governmcm came into this arrangement chiefly with. a_ view to carrying out their volley of distnbutmg large•;se for political support-a form of political patronage. They· were asked to some extent to do so by

Mr. Smt~th,]

94c8 Federal Aid Road8 [ASSEMBLY.] Agreemrnt, Etc., Bill.

certain of the Southern States. South Aus­tralia had impoS0d a tax on petrol. That "'"'' taken to the High Court, which ruled that the tax was in the nature of an excise tax, which was exclusively the function of the Commonwealth Government. A confer­ence was called bv the various Gm-ornments, ac which the 1926 . .agreement was arrived at. 'That meant that the Commonwealth Govern­ment wore to pro,-ide a cert~in sum. of money for a period of 'ears for distnbutwn to the States on the basis of area .and population. It was further stipulated that for every £1 spent bv the Commonwealth or given to the States under this agreement the States should provide- 15s. Fm·thc;rmore, there was to J:e a repaj'mf:'_ t at the :·ate of 9 per ?ent. I!l liquidation of the capital cost, .and, m addi­tion. all propo><ds and also all tenders for ''ork were to be submittE'd to the Common­''"alth Yiinistcr for ·works for his approvaL I was ~\cting PI·emier at the time, and I oppc"od very strongly t~e. Con:mon."·ealt.h obtruding into State admmistratwn m tlus fashion. It would be no advantage to per­manent construction to have two authorities scrutinising plans and specifications, or approving or otherwise of the various tenders wbmittccL The Commonwealth Government illsisted on that line of action, the majority of the St:a te' agreed. and Queensland had to o·i\-e ,,, a, . But tho thing was wrong in pri ~ciple. 'because it is the height of absurditv fur two governmental authorities haYing t'o do wit11 the same citizens to exer­cise a form of dual controL

That has operated until the existing agree· ment, but the new agreement entered into removed that form of control, and the moneys raised under the agreement by means of a petrol tax are paid, in the proportions agreed upon, to the various States with no other provision by the Commonwealth than that the State• receiving money for this purpose shall expend the money in that specific direction. In other words, I take it that the Commonwealth Auditor-General will require a ccrtifica te from the State Auditor-Ger::eral that the moneys advanced bY the Commonwealth have been spent for the purpose stated in the agreement.

The principal Act was passed in 1926, and the agreement set out therein provided that the Commonwealth and the State would provide annually £376.000 and £282,000 respectively for a period of ten years for the purpose of the construction and the reconstruction of certain roads to be desig­nated " Federal Aid Roads."

From the date of its inception to 30th June, 1929, the amount to be so provided was £1,974.000-three years at £658,000 per annum-but, a' the full works programme on that apportionment had not been carried out. only £1,560.238 had been expended up to the <'n.l of June, 1929.

Of the amount mentioned-the Common­wealth'.'! contribution was £885,671 and the State's £674,566; those figures being for a three-year period.

The local authorities benefited by the expenditure are required to repay the sum of £258.820, or approximately 17 per cent., over a period of thirty years. The above figures represent the actual expenditure under the agreement ; but the actual amount made available under the agreement totalled £1,974,000, being three years at £658,000 per annum-£1.128,000 being made available

[1vlr. Smith.

m· appropriated by the Commonwealth, and £846.000 by the State. Of the State's pro­portion of the £846,000, £553,851 has been apportioned to the Loan Fund Account and £292,149 to the consolidated revenue fund.

This question of Federal aid towards road construction and State expenditure gener· ally is one of special importance to the State, having regard to the liability of the State in regard to certain works that have been constructed. \Yhen the Minister was speaking·, I said that the question of trans­oort was one of the most Important that Ciovernments were called upon to deal with. The State has expended millions of pounds on the construction of railways. I have already given the figures and also the amount expended by the Commonwealth and the State in regard to road construction. To that sum must be added the figure expended by the local authorities, representing a con­siderable proportion of the Rtate's indebted­ness. All this capitalisation is a charge upon the people, and, with changed methods of transport, traffic is being diverted from the railways to the roads, ~ith the result that all Governments are bemg confronted with considerable deficits in the running of railways.

The Government have endeavoured to deal with the matter in various v, ays. They have initiated rmd placed upon the statute book taxes dealing with heav:,' vehicles; and taxes have been imposed on various other types of vehicle,, with a view to making it uneco­nomic for that class of transport to be conti11uod on the roads.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: To make them pay a fair amount towards the cost of construction of the roads.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: That is the statement of the Minister, but it is- a state­ment that I need not accept. It is a matter that is open to argument.

A very large proportion of the public debt of the State is represented by I'ailways. Those railways may have been justified at the time they were built, though I do not

propose to enter into that ques­[2 p.m.] tion for the purpose of my discus-

sion this afternoon; but since thev have been built the conditions relating to transport have materially altered. Those railways arc not now used to anything like the extent that was the case formerly. One onlv needs to have a knowledge o£ the var'ious railwav line, of the State to realise that what I say is true, and a very cursory glance at the financial tables of the Commis­sioner's report indicates each year not only a falling revenue with regard to passengers rwd trade, but also a falling off in the volume of trade offering. With a view to meeting that situation. and to cope with the competition with other forms of transport, the Government introduced the Heavy Vehicles _\et Amendment Bill last session, under which they have imposed very heavy charges on various forms of road transport. I am of opinion that nothing the State can do will prevent the deYelopment of transport on the linos which people desire.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Do you think that good 'roads ought to be built parallel with our railways?

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: I repeat that nothing the State can do will prevent the evolution of modern metho-ds of transport.

Fedeml Aid Roads [12 SEPTEMBER.] Agreement, Etc., Bill. 949

The internal combustion engine is something that has C'Jme to stay. It is a convenience in countlcos different directions, and an aid to modern trans)Jort, and the sooner the posi­tion is heed tF all the State'. concerned the easier it will he to deal with the position, Tho Sccrotan for RaihYaYs asks if I believe in btdding roads parallel" with the railways? CertainlY not. I do not believe in the State authoriti~~ spenrling rnoney in one direction \Yhirl1 lnPrelY rncans a Io o;; of revenue in con­necti< n witli' another form of State e'<:pendi­ture.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Hear, hear! I an1 glr1d to kno'.V tbat.

J'vh. . FORGAX S:'vliT.H: That brings me to f H. se I arn rmtting. I am definitely in fayoul' of a cornplete econon1ic review of all onr r:oc·cns of tntnsport within the State with a Yiow to dPtcrmining what shall be the functic•n-; of railwa~-s and what the functions of ro d . The State cannot continue indefi­nitelv runninrr raihYavs Hnd rends reprcsc!Jt­ing itn ~ncreat:;cd c~tpltal cost a1:d charge 011

the ~--~nH citizen~. Sooner or later son1c Govermnrnt will have to fr.re the que,tion of havino· an ~...'cononTic Slll'YP.- 1naclo of all the tran~1~or1 nroblPnl:;; of the· State \Yith a vio\v to determining which fotm of transport shall he usC'f1. Tl1-t h ~ to smPP extent been dono in other eountriH. In Gr< 'lt Britain, for examp1(\ some of the bip: railway colTil?anieg, the sha'lTS in 'Yhich us <l to be a good mv< ', t­nwnt and sou.nd security. L_nso mcrgrd. They haYc eliminated com6ctition among them­sol n_'S and the ronPcqubl;'e is that fe\vcr trains' are running: but, in addition to that, the, h"Ye cntf'rccl into the transport businesc; and run sen ices for th0 carriage of goods and pac•,cne:ers by road. To some extent that cliuinat- s the competition.

The SECRETARY FOR R.\IL\'iAvs: Do you think th<> GovPmment ought to do that?

';\lr. \Y. FORGA::\ Sl\liTH: The conditions i11 Crcut Britain are different. I a1n nlerel~,­rucntioning the fact that in Great Britain it i~ rva.lised that motor transport is part of the incvitabL· eYo1ution of transport con­ditions. and rnilvray-owners there appreciate the fnct and haY0 then1s0lves t•ntcred into th ~t fornl of tran~port, ·with the result that the r-~, o sCI'Yices are. to a ]arge extent. \Yorked nJJdcr the san1e contrJl. ono becoming coni­plE'nwntar to the othr'l'. lllnch loss and OYer­lapping bring- tlwrebc· avoided. The samo thing hap]')Om in the United States or America :,ne! in other highlc· dm·eloped rnnntric~. I an1 not prepared to arguE' at rho pr, ,ent juncture in favour of our Rail­'"~Y Department entc,ring the domain of n_otor tr«mport: but T say that a complete sun-ov of the 'vholc transportation problPm hmdd br cnade with a Yicw to determining

,,-hat forms of trar:sport arc going to be used. The ::\Iinistcr asked whether there should be a nrilwa- and a road tho one alongside the othr 'l'hat is the position in man;· cases. Tho 1nc:~~,,nce of taxation ma·T~ varv to smne dr•n·ep: but the Caj1ital COSt of the railways and of the roads in Queensland is the capital liabilitv of the same individuals within the State. 'and we cannot continue indefinitely with tlw existing methods. Sooner or later it will hc..Yc to t•e rletermined which mode of transjlort the people are going to u;;;e. "\re we going to have motor tran,portation on roac1s, or ar£' we going to have railways? I'D is qnit2 evidPnt that in many cases \Ye cannot afford both.

J\lr. G. P. BARNES: The earlier it is under­le• ken the less difficult it will be.

Mr. \Y. FORGA::o.J SMITH: Yes, and I a1r arguing in favour of a cornplctc eco?-omic ourve',· of the whole of the transportation of the State. Thousands of pounds are lost <'ach war, fresh capital liability is being undertaken and fresh difficulties are thereby bf·ing- en atcd. This. is something .to w~ich this House should gJVo some cons1deratwn, and this Bill has some bearing on it. The Commom,·ealth makes a grant from revenue for the construction of roads. The State adds to it by an appropriation of i~s own: and appro:c.imately £1,000,000 a year Is b~mg spent on road constructlOJ~ by ;·arwus authorities at the present t1me. Side by side with that we have a huge liability in the Railway Department, be-aring interest but not earning sufficient to pay the interest. The whole position of the railways will have to be reviewed. I am penonally m favour of a drastic writing-dm,-n of the capitalisation of the railways, and that "·ould be part of the survey of transport!'­tion problems to which I allude. The rail­ways should be placed und .. r such a capitalisa­tion as would be a fair and rcasonahlr charge agaimt the enterprise, having regard to present-day values and cond1twns of ra1lway transport.

::.1r. VYAHREK : That will not solve the trouble.

:'vir. W. FORG)._N SMITH: That would not, of ito.plf, soh·e the trollble, but it would ;ave the wastag-e. It is obYions that to-day one form of transport competes with the other One form of transport reduces the ca.rni~g capacity of the other; :·et the capital charges on both methods of transport ha vo to b, met b,_- one and the same people. In other "·orde. ti1o total rosourr:•- of the State come from the one source. One can describe it in ;.his way-that there is only one stocking from which cyerv cost mu'" be drawn. All the'<' thing·s <11'0 a cbarge on the actual 'Wealt_h pmduction of the St.at' in cctch year. It 1s l'Yidont that \'re can1~nt nli:'ord two systoms of t'ranspo,·t caterjng fer the varno bu~.iness~ and it is ncc~·ssary that 've f~1.nuld decide definitely for the future what form of trans­nort is o·oinO' to be us"d in certain cases. \y c canr~ot ~ontinue indefinitely providing l ,-lad facilities which din1inish th:__· earning cap1cit:: of railwcty lines. \Ye cannot _wipe our the cnpital indebtcdncso of a rallway line b-,cause it is a charvc on the State, but we can reduce the running costs by altered methods and altered arrangements. In any case, rny propositio11 ifJ one t~at should appeal to C'VL ryonE~ ,,vho has gn-:n an.y thought at all t·o tho position-that 1s, that, in:::,tead of proceoding in thr: casual way we are 1 _~~·occ<~ding at pre::;ent, \1 o should endeavour t•J co-ordinate all forms of tr.msport and put the transport system on a sound ccononu­cal iootino·. The Bill has a bear\ng· on that· quc::;tion;

0

and I raise it bccau-.;c of its _in1port~ ance. The new agrocmPnt entered Into b~­hYccn the States and the Commonwealth ~s a sound agreement. and the 0Jmmonwealth 1s ro be cono-ratulatcd upon removing the haras­sing rost~ictions that were imposed by the 1926 agreement. I support the socnnd read­ing of the Bill.

Qubtion--" That the Bill be now read a second time"-pqt and passed.

Jlr. Smith.]

950 Art Union Regulation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Art Union Regulation Bill.

COM:'iiiTTEE. (Jfr. Jlobcrts, East 'f'oowoomba, in the chair.)

Clauses 1, 2, 3, schedule, and preamble agr"ed to.

The House resumed. The CnAIR:>IA:i' reported the Bill -.·ithout

amendment. Third reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for Tuesday next.

ART 'C~IO~ REGULATIOK BILL.

RESUMPTION OF CO~IhliTTEE.

(J1r. Rob·,·ts, East Too1coomba, in thr chair.) Question stated-

" That clause 18 stand part of the Bill,"

on which :Mr. Hanlon h'ld mov._d the follow­ing amendment :-

" On page 8, line 7, after the word­' prescribed,'

insert the words-' Provided that no fees shall be pav­able in the case of a permit for an art union, raffle, or guc.:;sjng com­petition in_ aid of charitable, religious, or educational purposes.' "

Mr. I-IA::\LOX (lthaca): It is the b3imce of meanness on the part of the Government to tax moneys rai- eel by an art nnion or a guessing- competition in aid of charitable, religious. or educational purposes. There is no possible excuse for it. :f hope that the _\.ttorney-Gcneral will see sotne sense of the fitness of thing-s by accepting the amendment. There is no doubt that the- amount that can possibly be gathered by making a clmrge for a permit for this purpose, unless that charge be made absolutelY unreasonable will be too small to be of any importance to the Trea­surer. Surely there is no po"sible excuse for confiscating- money subscribed in this wav for charitable, ~religious, or educational in·,d­tutions!

The ATTOR~EY-GE:NER \.L (Hon. N. F. :Macgroarty, South Brisbane) : I cannot accept the amendment. Then' has been a good deal of abuse going on throughout Queensland in connection with art unions. Tl-w administration of this Act ·;:ill entail a good deal of work. :Many inquiries will have to be made throughout the State. There is a possibility that inspectors will have to be s~nt around to make these inquiries. The admmtstratwn of the Act will be a charge on. the department, and it is only right that tl:;:s charge -honlcl be defrayed by the impo­sJt._wn of a fee on certam applications. Only tlns mornmg I hfld brought to my notice the balance-sheet of an art union wherein 3Dpcarerl an amount of £560 for postage. (Sensation !) In the caso of another balance· shE>et there app~arecl the exorbitant amount of £380 for P'rinting. (Renewed sensation !) I cannot do anything in such cases under the pre-sent circnmshnces. It is necessarv for the Go;-Prnment to have a proper suner~nswn over all !h<;se things. The people who apply for pcrm1sswn to conduct art unions will have to pay fees to pay for the inquiries and inves­tigatiom that we shall be called upon to make. I h"ve al-readv intimated that the proc0eds of any art un;on up to £100 will be exempt from payment of any fee. The hon. member for Ithaca knows us well as I do that the proceeds of many art unions in aid

[Mr. Harzlon.

of churches do not re:tch £100. No fees will be charged in respect of those art unions, the fee operating only in cases where the proceeds exceed that sum.

Mr. :MULLAN: We did not cha•rge any fee for the services of the police in making inquiries.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It muet be admitted that the position to-day in co?nec­tion with these matters is most unsatisfac­torY and we propose to have them more fuli~ im-cstigated with a view to placing them on a better footing.

1\Ir. HAXLON: Will the amount of £100 -, hich you mention be the gross procAeds?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If the per­son applying for the art union states that _it is proposed to raise £100 or less, there Will be no fee; but a rea,onable fee will be imposed with respect to amounts over £100. Of course, a refund will be made if the anticipated amount of the art union is not realised in eases where a fee has been paid.

Question--" That the words proposed to be inserterl in clause 18 (,~Ir. Hanlon's amendment) be so inserted "-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES., 20.

Mr. Barber Mr. Hynes

Mr.

Bedford J ones, A. Bow Kirwan Brassington Nlullan Bruce O'Keefe Bulcoek Pease Dash Smith Dunlop Wellington Han!O'll Wilson Hanson VVln;-;tanley Tellers: Mr. Dunlop and Mr. Hanlon.

NOES, 30.

Ann and Atherton Barnes, G. P. Barnes, W. H. Black!ey Boyd Butler Costello Daniel Deacon Duffy Edwards Grilnstone Hill Kelso

l\lr. Kenny

D~. ~~~~'in JAr. l\1acgroarty

Maher Maxwell M organ Nirnmo Peterson 8izer Sway ne Tedman Walker, H. F. Warren Wienholt

Tellers: Mr. Boyd and Mr. Butler.

PAIRS. AYES. NoES.

Mr. Collins Mr. King Conroy Brand Cooper Carter Pollock Tozer

Resolved in the negative.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH (Mackay): I am opposed to this clause, for the reasons that I stated earlier. It is introducing a new and pernicious form of taxation. Not onlv are the Government searching the poc.kets of the poor in connection with the unemployment relief scheme, but they are now endeavouring to raise further funds by a tax on art unions. The reason given by the Attorney-General for refusing the amend­ment which has just been defeated was that a tremendous amount of inspection would have to be made. Does the hon. gentleman intend to appoint an army of inspectors under this Bill with a view to policing the Act and the regulations that he proposes to

Art Union Regu.lation Bill. [12 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Regulation Bill. 951

frame under the Act? Perhaps he will find some of those 10,000 jobs under this measure. The claus.e introduces a very pernicious form of taxation, and it is one to which I am opposed.

At 2.27 p.m., Mr. GRniSTONE (Stanley), one of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

Qne·tion-" That clause 18, as amendDd, >land port of t'he Bill "-put; and the Com­n1lttPf~ diYided:-

Mr. AYES. 29.

Annand Atherton Burnes, G. P. Rarncs, \V. H. Blackley Boyd Costello Daniel Deacon Duffy Ec1wards Hill Kelso Kenny Kerr

Dr. Mr.

Kcrwin i\Tacgroarty Maher :11axwell M organ t·~immo

Peterson Roberts Sizcr Swayne Ted1n3n \Valker, H. F. \Varren \Vienholt

Tellers : Mr. Boyd and Mr. Hill.

NOES, 20. ~lr. Barber ~'lr. Hvnr s

Bedford Jones, A. Bow KinYan Brassington l\iullan nruce O'Rf',-fe Pulcock Pt>a.-e Dash Rn1ith Dunlop VVE"Jlingtom Hanlon \Vilson Hanson , \.Viw·-tanley Tellers: Mr. Bedford and Mr. Hynh.

AYES.

:llr. King Brand Carter Tozer

Resolved in

r2.30 p.m.]

PAIRS. NoES.

Mr. Cn!lins Conroy Cooper Pollock

the affirmative.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. Uar((roarty. South Rrisliane) : I beg to move the following amendment:-

" Insert the following new clause to follow clause 18:-

' The Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister mav by Order in CounciL from time to tim~ delegate to an,· officer designated in such Order in Council all or any of the powers or duties of the Minister and such delegation mav be either for a specified time or without limit of time and the Governor in Council mav at any time, on the recommcndatio~ of the Minister, by Order in Council can-cel such delegation. '

' The officer to whom st1ch powers or duties are delegated shall, to the extent of such delegation and while the same subsists. have all the powers and perform all the duties of the Minister; but no such delegation shall be construed so as to prevent the Minister from also exercising anv of such powers or performing any of such duties.' "

This power is proposed because it may be necessary, when the Minister is absent. to delegate his duties in respect of this mea­sure. Probably the Minister will have to

delegate his powers to the Under Secretary or some other ofliccr in his department, and perhaps the police magistrates in the various towns will undertake the work for him. Occasions might arise \Vh-cn it \vill be impos­sible for th<:' Minister to attend to the whole o£ the administration at one time.

Mr. CosTRLI.O: It is onlv a machinery clause. -

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes.

Mr. l\IIULLAN (Flinder·s) : I would like to know why the Minister considers it desir­able to insert in the Bill power to dele; a tc his authoritv to another officer anv P!Oro than in an:v' other Bill. It is al"ays under­stood in Bills of this nature that the Minis­tPr deleg-ates certain powerc. of administra­tion, although he. of course, actually sig1~s the paper involv·cd and t tkcs the >"sponSI­hility. \Vben tlw Sccr·etary for Labour and Industry passf'd his Incom0 (Uncmpioyrne:1t Relief) Tax Bill he took very great powers; but he persono.l'ly wi:ll not •eoxer·ci,.e a 11 of them. Thev will be exexcised bv his ollic·'.rs, subject to 'his approval; but the Minister did not think it liteccssary to ;ay that he might deleg-ate his powers. Of co:.use, it is neecssarv for Ministers to hasc pa:rhctmcn~ tary sanction to sign papers. and •nany Acts arc administered bv the AttnrncY·Gcn<:ral, although in none of.thcm do we fh1d specific power to delegate his authority to his ofli­ccrs. Of course, I know thrt. if it came t-:> a qnestion in court, some rEfliculty might arise about the signature, and possibly that may be the reason for the amendment.

'The ATTOR:'\EY-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. ~Iacgroart:v. South Brisbane): Let me give hon. 'm0ml-1C'l'~ an illustration. In subclause (1) of clame 5 it is provided-

" Notwitlbtanding the provhions of the Gaming Acts as hcreinbdm:• defined, it shall be lawful for th" M1mstcr, sub­ject to such conditions as n;ay be pre­scribed. either generally or m any pal:• ticular case, to grant a permit on alJPh­cation being made in the prescnbcd n1annPr to conduct a lotter:-T, art unron. or r~ffiE-', or ,guessing compctjtion, or drawmg.

The Minister might be a\\aV when such an application was made. and under the amend­ment it would be lawful for the Und<>r Secr0tary to gmnt the permit. An occasion might even nise in which somebody woul-d dispute what had been done unless the po\Yer were specifcallv given.

New clause (Jir . • liacr;roarty) agreed to. Cl"nsc 19--" llotification of cx;stinr; regu­

lations ''--agreed to. Clause 20-" llcr;ulations "-Mr. KIR\VA:'\ (JJrisbanc): Paragraph (n)

provides-" R0f'Juiring entry by pre"cribcd pe_r­

son:3 into n bond in such amount and rn the prescribed for.m,for the due obssrv­.ance of any permrt.

J.; the Attorney-General proposing. to app)y that ·provision generally or only 111 certam cases? In ouite a number of cases it would not be considered advisable or proper to insist that a bond should be entered into, because the bona fides of the applicant would r;ot be in question. It may be found neces­~ary to insist upon a bond in certain ( ases.

The .'I.TTOR'!'iEY-GE'!\iERAL (Hon. N. F. Macg-roarty, South Brisbane): The object of the paragraph is as stated by the hon.

Hon. N. F. MacgroaTty.]

952 Art Union Regulation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Art Union Regulation Bill.

member for Brisbane. Hundreds of people will apply for p~rmits who will. not be required to enter mto a bond. Th1s power will be utilised only when neceo.sary.

Mr. H.\~LON (lthaca): I should like to call the attention of the Minister to two or three paragraphs dealing with matters in respect of which regulations may be made. The first is paragraph (h) :-

" (h) The amount 'to be paid as sa!a.ry, commission. or wages, or rn connection with the organisation, conduct, or man­agement of any art union, raffle, or guessing co1npetition, c1,rnival, bazaar or fancy fair, or any en~ertaim!'ent . or device or scheme used m conJ tmctwn therewith."

That will enable the Minister to make regu­lations controlling salaries, and I should like his assurance that it is not proposed to create a job or a profession for salary hunters in connection with this Bill. The great objection that the public have to art unions for public purposes at the present time is that they are suspicious that some of the money is not being utilised for the purpose for which it is subscribed. \Ye object w outside people making a proi1t by way of wages, hire, salary, etr. Paragraph (i) provides-

" 'l'ho amount paid for rent or hire of any chocolate wheel or device used m connec~ion with a lottery."

The confectionery firms whose chocolates are being used at any carnival are always on]J too pleased to provide wheels, rolling games, or box games, that may be required free o£ charge for the purpose of having their chocolates disposed of at a carnival. There should be no chargo for the hire of these things so as to secure additional profit. VV e object to persons who suppl:-· these device' receiving some payment for them. \Ve have an objection to opening up new avenues of exploitation of charitable efforts for profit. Paragraph (j) reads-

.' The proportion of the gross takings to be paid to the institution or object in aid or in support of which the art union is formed or the carnival, bazaar, or fancy fair is conducted."

It will be very hard to regulate these matters in advance. It is quite possible for a bazaar to be absolutely ruined through a wet day, with heavy financial loss to the promoters through no fault of their own. After providing tents, equipment. stalls, and the nc.:?o:::·mry goods, a carnival can Yery e2sily be ::;poilt by a w0t week-end. resulting in a heavy financial loss. It will be diffi­cult for thn Minister to prescribe in adnmce the proportion of gross takings that must be prm-iclccl fm the object for which the carnival is being run.

Paragraph (l·) is the most dangerous of the lot. It reads-

" .k) The term' of agreement betwc·en persons promoting art unions. carnivals, bazaar.,, or fancv fairs in aid of anv relioious, educational, or charitable inst]. tution, or an0• hospital or ambulance, or school of arts or returned sailors' and/or soldiers' institution, or other approved institution. and the persons controlling such in '3th. uti on."

I haw o decided objection to catering for the .proressional promotor of art unions or charity-fund-re' ising schemes. This is the whole d:nu;cr to tb1s systcn1 of raising money

[Hon. N. F. Jfacgroarty.

for ~haribble purposes; and the only regu­lation th:,t can be justified is one prohibiting promoter& from being pai?·. If any body of men or women are sul!icwntly mterested iJ< a chn rity, they are only roo willing to Q:iYc their E<:rviccs free for the purpose of ~aising funds for it; if not, they should not have anything to do with it. In the en;nt of ar1 art unioa being orgamsed for a chantable ptn·po:...e) any person drs_i1:ous of ass.oc~ating him, 'lf with it and rcqunmg to be pa1d for hi-, services should not bo allowed to have aJJ\'Lhinrr to do \vith it. ln cases ·where n1oney is ~ai,ed for other purpusos it might be right that those participating shoL!Id be fairly rcnHllJf ,·o.t( ,J; but t:here is no excuse for any­Oil> connected with anv object for the raising of fn:tds for charitable and other public purrmcs getting any reward at all. I hope the ~Iinistcr v,·ill gi vo us an assurance. that t h<> door will not be open to an.' professiOnal art' union pro1noters, and that the hiring of mrrchincrv and appurtenances to conduct these fair or ·carnivals will not be encouraged, eRnecially in ca1cs where they aro no\v lent gratis.

The ATTORJ\"EY-GEXERAL (Hon. N. F. 1Ial'gl·uarLy, South Brisbane): After listcn­ino· to the hon. member for lthaca, ono would Jhink that by this Bill I am op.cning up fresh avenues ''"hereby prornoter.::> ~nll receive fees fron1 art unions and fairs. I can assure hon. members that this system was well established before I went to the Department of Justice. Since then I h>L\C gone a long wa.y to stop promoters making money out of art unions or from plants used for such pur­posP,, \\'hen I first went into the depart­ment there were a number of men w1th plant's around Brisbane who~e _idea of assist­inn· charitv '"as to conduct fans on a fifty· fifty or a ~ixty-forty basis; but I consistently turned down applications fr01r1 them .. I >;-,11 giYe an instance. I recen-ed an application from a certain gentleman in Toowoomba who wanted to run a fete for a charitable pur­pose. The committee of this body wrote and asked me if I could grant the permit. The rent to be chorgec! for the plant was £100 per week. I replied that no such application would be entertained. and I made the sug­ITC,tion tbct thev shoi1ld purchase their own pLant and. TUn the fete. They did so. and \Vt're able to obtain suHiC'ient 'Yorkers to conduct the fete withod any expense.

~vlr. HANLON: 'rhat person must ha Ye thouoht that as there was a change of GoYC

0

rnn1ent ~vhich favoured private enter­prise, cncouragPrnent would be given to persons with private plants.

The ATTORNEY-GEXERAL: He was entirely wrong. Strictly speaking, I have no power in these matters. These people nsuallv went to the local authonty m the rown 'in which they were operating and .oecured a permit. I had no jurisdiction . in the matter but I will have nnder th1s B1ll, und these J~rornoters will receive no sympathy from me. Paragraphs (h), (i), (j). and (k) are tlrere f0r a purpose. If a perfectly bona fi.de application is made, it will be dealt ;vrth under th<'•8 provisions, which will ch1efly apply ro m eh forms C?f entertainments :'s merry-go-ronnds and swmg-boats. N~ chant­able or religious body would obtam such plants for themselves.

It may happen that t~ese merry-go-ro~nds and other applicances will have to be lnred, and that some little amount will have to

Bureau of Economics [12 SEPTEMBER.] and Statistics Bill. 953

be paid for the hiring. I much prefer, of course, not to pay anything, as I am of the opinion that people who conduct these affairs should do so with their own help. That is the principle on which I work as far as possible; and I can assure hon. members that the promoters will get very little sym· pathy from me. At the same time, there must be some provision to enable a small payment to be made, if necessary.

Only the other day I had an interview with an hon. member of this Chamber, who wanted to get permission for an art union in respect of which £800 had to be got to pay for the prizes before one pennv went to the charitable object for which t"he art union was to be conducted. I told the hon. mem­ber that that was u1_1reasonable, and he agreed to my suggestwn to postpone the application unti~ this Bill went through Parliament. It Is cases like that to which we must give consideration in future as we know that people may ask for pe;mission to conduct art unions in respect of which for example, sufficient money may have t~ be found to pay for two motor cars. I do ~1ot agree. with that type of art union, as, ;n my opmwn, the principle of art unions rs that the prizes should be donated for the object for which the art unions are being conducted.

Mr. MULLAN: I take it that in cases such as you have mentioned vou will ask for a guarantee? "

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes. If th~ people d~sire to run that type of art umon, they >nil have to put up a guarantee. Further, when you come to large art unions of that description, there are many expenses that h~ve to be met in the way of printing, advertrsmg, and clerical assistance. In the case of one art union to which I made reference to-day the expenses for clerical assrstance amounted to £190. I have no intention of allowing laro-e sums of monev to be paid a way in respect of art union"s that are conducted for charitable, religious, or educational purposes. seeing that the people who support these art unions do so wit~ the prjmary object of assisting the j)artrcular rehgious, charitable, or educational mstrtutwns for which funds are required.

Mr. MuLLAX: I can see you working twenty-four hours a day !

The ATTOR~EY-GEXERAL: I mev have to do so; but I face the future with the utmost confidence that charitable objects will get much more support than in the past b·· reason of this measure ·

Clause 20 agreed to .. Clause 21-" Proclamations and rrqulations

to form part of this Act "-agreed' to. The House resumed. The TE1IPORARY CHAIRMA='i reported the Bill

"ith amendments. Third reading of t.he Bill made an Order

of the Ray for Tuesday next.

BT'REA U OF ECOXOMICS AND STATISTICS BILL.

SEOOXD READIXG. The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND

INDUSTRY (Hon. H. E. Sizer, Sandgate): In mo.-ing the second reading of this Bill I do not propose to traverse the whole of the ground that l touched on at the initiation stage. By this time hon. members have had

ample time to study the Bill, and I am sure that they will have found that their sus­picions were not well founded. I have read very carefully the speeches delivered by hon. members opposite, and I have come to the ~onclusion that, on the whole, they will sup­port the measure, because they have accepted the principle laid down therein. The need for such a bureau and the work that it can do has generally been supported, provided the bureau is established on impartial lines and 1 he officer in charge is an officer of Parlian~ent and is there to give information to the com­munity as a whole and not to any particular section. I take it, generally, that that was the view of the Opposition; and, after read­ing the Bill, I believe they will have come to the conclusion that that is exactly the posi­tion the Government have taken up. P•ro­fc,sor Brigden will be an officer of Parlia­ment, and the bureau will not be for the Lcncfit of any particular party or person, but will be for the benefit of the State as a whole. For that reason I feel certain that in the main hon. members opposite will support the 1neasurc.

I read the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, and I can assure him that I did not give him any reason to believe that I consider Professor Brigden a J\Iessiah. I am sure I never countenanced that idea at all: but I do feel that he can render invaluable service in the dissection of information and setting it before the people in such a manner that thev will understand the real position: and I an1 perfectly sure, too, that we in turn can decide on the proper policy to adopt from the information obtained. There is no doubt that the longer the preoent crisis exists the greater is the demand for detailed infor­mation. The problem would probably be easier of solution if we had a better appre­ciation of thP real problems we have to face, and if we could got a better forecast of events throughout the world and a 1'ealisation of tlwir relationship to Queensland and Aus­trali>t during the next year or so, so that we could shape our course accordingly. To illus­trate my point: It is not VCI'J' long since Australia was going nwrrily along, and, although ceTtain people >vho were called dire JW"imists, from the data which was available, predicted a position such as we are meeting to-day, very !iitlo regard >YHH paid to their warnjngs. They 1vere like a voice crying in the wilderness, but the accuracy of their fore­cast has been proved by th0 changed condition of affairs in every pM·t of the world. These changed conditions have proved that we need n1orc and more accurate forecasts to warn us of the dangers that arc likel:v to lie ahead. iYhcn Professor Brigdcn made his speech in Sycln"y some months ago, predicting a fall in the national income of £60.000,000, that wns the first indication that the big minds of the public had become aware of the serious storm which was aproaching. At that stage

full significance '""s not paid to [3 p.m.] the position bv the community.

Yet that is cxactl~, the position we have to face. During this crisis the demand for more and more statistical information and 1ong--d1~tance forecasting based upon accurate data is continually being made. In fact, we cannot handle our national problems ''' ithout such information. We cannot shape our financial or economic course without that information, and we are lagging very badly behind some other countrih-the United States of America in particular, where there has been established a large number of

JI on. H. E. Size1·.]

954 Bureau of Economics [ASSEMBLY.] and Statistics Bill.

~ronomir bureaux which sell their informa­tion to business organisations and so forth.

1\h. IV. FORGA::-i s~IITH: Their busin<:SS organisation is very complete. One organisa­tion there is the largest of its kind in the \YOrld.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: We are a long way behind them in that respect. VVe know that the Cnited States of America is v<'ry up to date as a business nation, and one of the strongest points in its organisation is the statistical department. Each inclustrv has its own ;tatistical department and its own economists to mn.su;·e the value of the basis on which bnsinc" is established. 'fhat being so, is it not a strong reason th.tt we should possess the same advantage?

I might be permitted at this stage to say a word on behalf of the people >vho are g·overning Australia at the moment. quite irrespectiw of political parties. With the tremenclons problem'• of administration to be dealt with, it is difficult for those con­trolling Governments to find the time neces­o;ary to get out the necee3ary data and arrive at a correct view of the position which has to b,, handled. \Y c must have specialists, ,,ne] we need a few mot'c of them to concen­li'ate on work of that description. It is not popular work. It is not an exact science, as the Leader of the Opposition saicl. ::'\either !s rnedicine an exact science· but while it is not an exa_et science, we ar~ ver;~ thankful for the serncE>> of the doctor. Ho cannot cure all our ills. hut he knows more about many of them than we do; and, if we took l1is ad.-ice-we generally ignore it-we would probably have better health and liYe !ono-cr. Just as tr('dicinc is not an exact scie~ce neither is eC'onornics; and we want to get competent people concentrated on this science. placing the facts before us-not necc':,:;arily g-iYlng advice-because I do not "l!togcther think it ig the province of the bnr0au to adYPC' on e.-ervthiw··-but to state the fa.ct,. As the Leade~· of the Opposition has r1ghtly said, 'vo shall 'never corne to unanimity as to the right way of doing thmgs <>Yen when we ha.-c got thP facts. If there is to be a di.-ision of opinion, let us ha.-c common ground as to the natun: of the cWobJcm.

The Le-ader of the Opposition stated it was necl ssary to find out how best to utilise the resources of the country. That is what we want to get at. V\"e want to know what -arp the re:-.::ou~~ccs of Queensland, vi.~hat are f>lH g0og;raplucal and ccono1nif' divisions, and whu+ can be best produced in this or that portwn of th<' State, so that our energies nl:'ed not be wasted. There are many things whrch would ha.-e bP-en excellent propositions had they been carried out in some other por­tiOn of the State than the one in which thev were triPd. There has been a lot of research ~<ork; \\' e are now cond_ucting experiments m :t\ orth Queensland wrth regard to the ~rowth of tobacco, in connection with which rt luoks as if we had discovBred an economic district which will produce tremendous W('a.lth from the development of that 1ndustr:v; \vhercas. if we C'arried out the cxperimc'nt in some Dther clistrict, it would prove a cok,,sal failurC'.

Mr .. BmFO~D: It is a job for agricultural cxpenmentahsts, and not for economists.

Thn SICCRET ARY FOR LABOUR AND 1::\"DUSTRY: It is; but I use it by way of

[Hon. H. E. 8izer.

illustration, because it is rather clifficult to get instar:ces of the exact type of work we shall get from the bureau.

Mr. BEDFORD: The onlv wav the economists can help is by s1noking ~cigai·ettes.

The SECHE'L\RY FOR LABOuR AND IXDGSTR't : Aud both the hon. member end I patronise that iEdustry frc~ly. It is

difficult to giv(' an exact illusrration of the work of the bureau will be; but we

eau make the big, broad statement that its obj0ct ,,;][ lw to get down to the real e2Scntial economic fuct •. I lwlieve that in mnn:v cases when we speak of the potentiali­tic.; of the State, were we to investigate, we would iind a lot of >vhat we sa v is realh: on!" hot air. It is much better for all con­corirnd to have a specialist in,·ostigating these things, in order to see exactly what is 'vorth concertrating on and what is not. That is the desirable object to achieve. For in-tancc, the services of the director of the bureau have been asked for in order that he may make an investigation of the very important question of the economic relation of the harbours and railways. Difficulties. perhaps, arc being perpetuated in many places because the Government own the rail­ways directly and the harbours indirectly. A certain amount of business onlv is to bo done, and probably an investig:~tion will disclose to us a policv >vhich will be of immense value to this StLte. So rnuch is this recognised that the se nice:, of the director ha vo been asked for-not bv the Government, but bv per,ons interested out-side. ,

:\fr. DliXLOP: Do they prefer to haYe him acting alone or as one of a comrnission?

The SECRET~\RY FOR LADOUR A::'\D 11\D'CSTRY: I do not know. I understand that he will make an independent report on the problem.

c\lr. J\1ULLAX: If you Ct\t out political interests. the Treasurer or the Prmnicr or anyone else could settle it in half an hour.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOuR AND E\Dl'STRY: I do not know that. although I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that trouble has been created in the past by political parties, and that trouble can be perpetuated. That is all the more reason why the bald facts of the case should be brought to the front. It has to be borne i,r mind that the int-erests of political parties at. different 6nu's make questions much more complicated; but, apart altogether from that, there aro tremendous Yeste-d interests which arc very difficult to overthrow without forcing hardship and diolocation on communities ~vhich may be 9;reater than the benefits which the chango of policy adopted in the solution of the problem may bring in its train. The important thing we need to know is what the effect of such a change v:ould be, and which would cause the greater loss and inconvenience, because that know­ledge migM put the question in a different light. I merely cite that instance by way of illustration.

The main point with whi-ch I am concerned i.; the necessitv for concentration for the time being on big national problems. Since we last discus,e-d this measure this necessity has been forced unon our notice in a Temark-able manner. ·

An advisory committee was appointed, co­ordinatocl with which was >Yhat might be t£nncd an unoffi.cial Bxpert committee, to

B-ureau of Economics [12 SEPTE:VIBER.] and 8tf1ti,<tics Bill. 955

~liPlJly the i:1forrnatio11 vd1irh 'vould indicate what was necessary to grapple with the present financial crisis in Australia. The ~f'rvircs of Professor Brigden were requi­~itioned; and that' is why power is given in the Bill to enable his services to be availed of in such a direction.

It could be argued, and justifiablv so that this is a Commonwealth matter. The' Com­monwealth Government certainly did take ;-mne steps to establish a Bureau of Econo­mi, s. but all the States should pursue a similar course. Australia would then have up-to-date economic machinery competent to supply data rPlating to the economics of Australia as a whole; but, in the absence of an efficient Commonwealth department. there is no reason why the Queensland Govern­ment should stand idly by, if thev can give the lead in this matter and be the means of providing the services of an officer which will result in benefit to Australia in this' hom of crisis. I do not think Queensland can be criticised for providing those services. At least it can be said that the mere fact that the services of Professor Brigden were Tequisitioned confirmed the judgment of the GoYernment regarding the man thcv selected for the position. I hope that, as tl1e months go by, the work that will be canied out will be) of a~si~hl nr·e during this crisis.

Certain information is badlv needed at the present moment, and this p"oint will serve t<• iilustrate what I have in mind: At the present tin1e> the GoYt?rnmcnts of Australia are grappling with the economic position. but none of those Governments is possessed of any information upon which it can be decided upon reasonably accurate groundi or anything· approaching reasonably accurat~ gTouncls. what is the real wealth of the States O!' the Commonwealth. Calculations might vary by between £50,000,000 and £150,000 000, but it is imperative that we should se'cure information which will permit of a more accurate calculation than that. It is neces­sary that >ve should know whether a 10 per cent. reduction in costs will be sufficient to carry ns through this crisis. vVe should be "ble definite], to sav that the reduction required is 10 per cent., and that it will be unnecessary to impose a reduction of 12~ or 15 per c0nt. If a 15 per cent. reduc­tion is required, then that should be readily ascertainable, and we should commence from that point, instead of ,commencing with a 10 per c0nt. reduction, only to find that it is not sufficient to meet the problem. At the present time we are unable to say "~hether the reduction should be 10 per cent., 1o per cent,, or 20 per cent. The expert committee is endeavouring to arrive at some basis upon which can be determined the precise percentage that is required in this national emergency.

There is no doubt that a Bureau of Economics would be of tromP'1dous value m impressing on the people the dangers of inflating the currency at such a stage as this. The view is held by a certain school <of thought that our problems can be over­come by an infla.tion of the note issue; but anyone who h_as g·iven the subject any thought IS convmced that tha.t is not a way out. Still, there is a very strong popular feeling in favour of such a, course in order to overcome our difficulties. I hav,e very good reason for believing that it was seriously contemplated by one legislative body in Aus­tralia that the note i;;sue ,should be inflated to meet certain proposals in connection with

the production of "·heat. I believe that it was pr6posed to issue notes in payment of the wheat produced, the notes to be {lance lied when the product was sold.

The proposal might have been all right if the amount of wealth received was equal to the amount of notes issued, but, if a greater amount \Vas paid than V\.,as received, a multitude of notes would be floating about the community; and the aftei'-effects of such a scheme would be much more serious than the temporary benefit gained.

Mr. W. FoRGAN S:.UTH: The amount of the note issue would not be greater than the amount to be received for the wheat.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOlJR AND INDUSTRY: Notwithstanding that it is the popular view outside, the hon. member should know that these things cannot be done 'vithout iU-coH:::equcncc~"· follo,ving.

'Mr. MuLLAN: No considered authority \YOtdd make that suggestion. It is an ill­considered one.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND IKDUSTRY: The proposal in the Federal Parliament to guarantee the price of wheat was much more than a more passing thought. It became very nearly an actuality.

7\1r. \Y. FoRGAX SliiiTH: The proposal of the Federal Government was to guarantee a price for wheat through the Common­wealth Bank, exactly in the same way as your Government have done in Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: That sort of scheme would lead us into difficulties.

:VIr. vY. FORGAK S'liiTH: That is a, fact. 'I'he State of Queensland for years guaran­teed the Wheat Board.

The S11;C'RETARY FOR LABOUR AND J)[DUSTRY·: It would lead us into the Yery position that we are desirous of warn­ing the people against, because the Com­monwealth Bank, which could guarantee the notes issued in payment of the wheat, did not have the money to make the guarantee.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: Who said that?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD INDUSTRY: I say it. But it is not only my own personal opinion; it is based on information supplied. by the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank to all the Governments of Australia. The Commonwealth Govern­ment could not have fmanced such a scheme; and, if there had been an increase in the note issue, there would have been an infla­tion, with all its dire consequences.

Mr. vV. FORGAN S:11ITH: You are talking nonsense!

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: I am not.

Mr. FORGAN SMITH: You are not stat­ing the position at all when you say such a scheme would have a dangerous effect on the community. If the Comonwealth Bank financed the total wheat crop of Australia, the total amount of money representing t"he value of the whole of the wheat would not be in circulation at the one time. Take the operations of the State Wheat Board. If the total payments in respect of the wheat crop amounted to £300,000, not more than £100,000 would be advanced at any one time.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: I say very distinctly a.1itl

Hon. H. E. Sizer. I

956 Bureau of Economics [ASSEMBLY.] and Statistics Bill.

deliberately that, had the Federal Govern­ment proceeded with the proposals and given a guaranteed price for wheat, as a result of the fall in the price of wheat-and econo­mists tell us the price is likely to fall still further-there would be a tremendous infla­tion of our currency, and we would be in dire trouble. That is a doctrine that we can slip into very quickly, and it is one of the great dangers we desire to avoid. We want advice regarding what appear to be very easy ways out of our problems. That would not have been a wa.,- out of that problem. At this stage we "want to steer clear of all these " wild-cat " schemes of financing, which may tickle the ear and result in the inflation of our national credit.

Mr. HANLON: Are you taking power in the Bill to prevent Professor Brigden from advocating a policy of inflation?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: Not at all.

Mr. HANLON: Then IYhat has this to do in the Bill?

The SECRETARY FOR L.\BOUR AND INDUSTRY: No distinct line of operation can be given with respect to a Bureau of Economics; but what is needed is the dis­s~nlinatiol~ of so.und econon1ic views, par­twular ly 111 a trme of crisis such as the present. It is such views that want to be expressed, and not views on schemes of inflation.

Mr. W. FORGAN Sii!ITH: Our trouble now is due to the inflation of credit during the war period.

The SPEAKER: Order ! I hope the hon. gentleman will continue with his speech.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND IKDUSTRY; The matter will become l';lC'reasmgly .rmpo~tant with. the passage of trmc. Cert::mly, rf drfficultres mcrease, the tendency wlll grow for people to look for some attractive by-path, instead of following the. hard road whrch rs the only road to take. It rs nnportant that at the present time we should keep to the hard facts of reality, and not lose our heads over theones that can only prove dangerous to the con1n1unitv as a :vhole. Undoubtedl:v the dissemination of mformatron from a Bureau of Economics and Statistics will be of tremendous value. Un­doubtedly, too, industn needs more informa­tion on which it can "proceed along proper lines .. That fact has been recognised by the Ame_nca_n roople: :Yho make use of 1nariy fine mstttutwns 'lmrlar to that which we are creati~g: It is absolutely essential that such an actrvrty should be in ~xistencc secino- that it acts. as it were. as a ba,·ometer: to al{ those varied activities in the co1nmunity which go to make the wealth of the country. It is hoped that in the not far distant future rcgulnr business bulletirm will be issued from the bureau fo_r the gu;dance of people in mdustrv, and m that way data will be sup­plred to the people of Queensland in the same way that. people in other countries are kept posted w1th cond1trons from similar institu­tions. 'I'hat is one direct benefit which will come to the people from this bureau. . l cannot help repeating that, if investiga­~wn hac! b_cen n:ade of_ many of the projects m co~ner~JOn ':''~h whrch we are at present experwncmg drfficulty, the advice of econo­mist• would have faved us a tremendous .amour;t of money. It is 'probable, for rmtancc, that many branch railways would nul ha'.'O been built, because a full eco-

[Hon. II. E. Sizcr.

nomic investigation of the proposals would have pointed out the absurdity of spending £1.000.000 from which there was very little prospect of interest being returned. I simply me that illustration to show the neces­sity for providing means which will prevenJ our perpetuating such a condition of affairs. Thco railway problem is, of course, a difficult ono, but, if an econornic inve'"tigation had b"en. made in the past, that problem would not be so acute to-clay.

The same remarks apply to many other activitie,, and it will be apparent to hon. members that the bureau will be of consider­able service in giving to the public accurate data on which public opinion can be moulded. Undoubtedly, information furnished on a reliable basis will be a great corrective to many of the existing e.-ils. Much of the industrial trouble in the past has been due to ~uspif'ion, and I beEeve we can accorr1plish much if by the presentation of reliable infor­mation we can remove the feeling of sus­picion which exists that one side in industry is not dealing fairly 1vith another. There is a reluctance on the part of certain people to give information. I have in mind whc.t hap­pened during the disastrous coal strike in J'\m,- South vValcs. That was a foolish pro­ceeding, but what made it worse was that. when the men aske-d for facts, the awners ·rcfmed to gi.-e them. What they stated mav have been true, but it created an atmosphere of doubt which die] not make for the peaceful solution of the problem. It created a sus­picion of there being "a nigger in the '"cod­pile." \Ye want to get awa,· from that.

\\' e vvant a bureau which will be beyond suspicion-a bur"au which may not be able to tell us 1vhat to do. but which will at ]cast [!i ,-e us all the facts available. I hope' that it will be utilised in that direction, and, as time goes on. I hope its investigations will be conducted in such a manner as to inspire the confidence of the people who ha.-e dealings with the bureau, so that the returns will be of some real value to the people concerned.

I mav be somewhat of an idealist, but 1 am horiing that our way out of these m;my probl01ns is b:~ getting more light on them. I h>we a lot of confidence in human nature, and I still have confidence that a big majority of the J>Pople are fairminded, and will fac~ the poeition when the facts are fairly and honestly put before them. 1 thi11k thct will be of value; but agam we; cannot measure it in pounds, shilling-s, and pence. It may not be possible even to fore­c,Lst 'vith accuracy: and it n1av not achieve what we hopt', btit ·at least it looks a reason­able proposition.

Ther0 is on~ other thing I would like to c,ay. It may be necessary to call for ccr·tctin returns. Returns are most objectionable, but I cm aHlire the House that I have di'­cussed this aspect with Professor Brigden. and no one realises more than he how harass­ing and objectionable certain returns are, and it is his intention so to remodel tho returns which are already sent in as to enable him to extract the necessary informa tion. I hope later on to move an amendment to provide that we may be able to use the• taxation figures-with proper safeguards-to­enable the bureau to get much of the neces­sary information. I want to make that clear. At the present time most of tho information can be got by that means; but

Bureau of Economics [12 SEPTEMBER.] and Statistics Bill. 957

m the Bill it will be seen that we have introduced a specific clause providing that llO information shall be published in any form that the individual can be recognised or pcwdiscd as a result of the information !Jeinb made public. Vi"hat is wanted is not to take individual figure~, but figures for iudu::;trv as a \vhole. I c1n assure hon. mcmbei·s that they will find a special clause il' the Bill providing that information so c btaincd will not be publish0d in a form vvl!:ch can be Ji,tinguished to the detri­ment of an-, indi•:idual, and will not be a l . Pach uf tile secrecy clauses of the Act.

1\lr. H-\XLO:-i: You promised secrecy in the LJconlc Tax Act.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND I:\DUSTRY: And there is s ;crecy. I hope 1 he Lr:ader of the Opposition will consider ibat point. \Ve do not want to a-,k people to. ?ClHl in further returns when, by the utdlf-~twn of returns alreadv furnished we can cxtrae, a!! the information that is nPccssary without detriment to anybody.

[3.30 p.m.] Mr. W. FOHGAN S1!l1'H: That could be done

by using tho taxation office.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND I:\fDUSTRY: That is t.ho proposal and I h'!pe the House will appreciate th~ point. We do not want to harass people, yet we ~annat do anythmg unless we get the mformahon. The people have it, and the bureau has not got it; and, if the people will not give the information, we are pretty lwlpless; but, by means of a liaison between that department and the Registrar-General's Dopa rtmem, wo hope to be able to co-ordi­nate returns as well as the returns supplied to the Department of Agriculture and other departments and get matters put into a s1mplcr form and comprise evervthing in one form. •

It may be necessary to get accurate data fo.t· a number of districts which would probably oast £25,000 or £35,000 per annum i£ obtained soparat<ely, and in the meantime \1-C would probably have worried the life out of everybody in getting it. Hon. mem­bers can accept my statement that we shall t-ry to get the information with the least trouble and expense to the people. I hope we shall be able to reorganise the depart­ments so that it will not bo necessary to call for new returns except with respect to mat­ters of interstate trade, which are of verv great importance. It would cost a lot of money to get all the information \Ye desire; but I do think we need it in connection with interstate trade. and I think that it can Le arranged. I think it will bo unneccs­cary to use all our power, but we shall take the po\1 er to get it in case of need. Of course, it is not well to use all the jlO\c er we take. I thiuk the chambers of commerce and industries generally are so vitally desirous of obtaining accurate data in ·regard to interstate trade that I have every reason to believe thev will assi t m in that direction. Anv difficulties can be overcome by co-operation between the Rail. way Department and the shipping com­panies; and, while we may not get it quite accurately, we shall have a, fair idea of the extent of our interstate trade. That is essen­tial. Take the arguments which have been used in this Assembly as to whether Queens­land has a favourable trade balance or not.

Mr. W. FoRGAN SMITH: Tbat is not seri­ously challenged.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDDSTRY: It has been challenged to a very great extent. It is essential to know the real position of our interstate trade, and then we shall ha.ve an opportunity of placing before the people the markets avail­able in this State for some commodities which we ought to be able to produce but which at the present time we are importing. I do not think we can make the people do that; but, if we can get accurate details and show there is a block of busine'o in Queens­land to the extent of so much per annum, the minds of Queenslanders will turn towards scetting that business for themselYE'3. We shall be giving leads; we cannot do more than that; but what we do will be a guid­ance. I feel sure that the House and the community generally will not be harassed by unnecessary returns. I think we shall be able to arrange matters in such a way that tbe information will be obtained without undue annoyance to the public generally.

The Bill. as I mentioned earlier. intro­duces the innov,1tion of making the Director responsible to Parliament. As to whether hP will he aYailable for the assistance of Rach side of the House, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, I should like to say that his sen-ices will be available in that way, and not only to hon. members, b11t also to the whole commun;ty; and I hope that, as the :..-Qars go by, we shall get some direct b0nefit from his appointment. If I have ever given aro impression to the contrary, I certainly v. 'sh to correct it. I am sure that the Director will be symnathctic and enthusiastic in his work, and I believe that he can make a great succl)"s. His appointrnent is the fir t Pxperiment of its kind in Australia, and l ag-ain ask hon. members and the public J"C>l.;-rally for their sympathetic consideration, nclt expecting him to wave a magic wand and overcome all our difficulties at once. I trust that, as time passes, we shall find that, as a res11lt of this move, fewer mistakes will bP made in Queensland. I feel that we have given a direct lead to Australia, and that the services of this bureau will be of tre­mendous value during the months of crisis. The information which has been and is being obtained and is being made available to myself and other members of the Govern­ment, and to Australia generally, cannot but bo useful. As investigation is concentrated 011 our problems, we shall get nearer and nearer towards gaining a correct view of the situation which all Australia has to face, and, if that is the only thing which this bureau achieves it will have been well worth while. If as a' result of the experience which the Director gains and the reports which from time to time will he made available, the lnforrnation disclosed acts as a corrective in the minds of future legislators, then the bureau will have done some good for Queens­land and Australia generally. I beg to n1ove-

" That the Biil be now read a second tin1e."

::\1r. \V. FORGAN SMITH (Mackay): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed.

Resumption of -debate made a.n Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

'fhe House adjourned at 3.40 p.m.

Hon. H. E. Sizer.]