legislative assembly friday october · opera1 ioi-is of the f:tores purchasln g authority of the...

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1923

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1978 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

FRIDAY, 26 OCTOBER, 1923.

Tho SPEAKER (Hon. W. Bertram, Maree) took the chair at 11 a.m.

SUPPLY.

REsUMPTION oF CoM~IITTEE.

RECEPTION OF RESOLUTIONS.

Mr. POLLOCK (G1·egory), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, prc>-'nted the resolutions from Committee of Supply.

The TREASUHER (Hon. E. G. Thc0dore, Chillagor.): I beg to move-

" That the re~olutions be now received." Question put and passed.

ADOPTION OF RESOLUTIONS.

The resolutions being taken as read,

The TREASUREH (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillauoe): I beg to move-

" That the resolutions be now agreed to.' 1

And, hon. members indicating a desire to discuss resolutions 12, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 40, 61, 65, 72, 83, 99, 102, 106, 113, 114, 130, and 131-

Resolutions 1 to 11, both inclusive, agreed to.

H0wlution 12-" State Star, s Board"

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): This Board has been brought into existence in order to coordinate the buying of the necessary material requi1··ed for the various Government departments, of which there are quite a number. I certainly agree that a very proper thing has been done in appointing such a Board, but I do not know just how far the powers of the Board go in tho direction of purchaJing the supplies that will be required during the coming year to carry out the extensive programme of works which the Government have foreshadowed during this session of Parliament, in conl?-oction vvi th irrigation works in particular. I would like to know just what is being; done in that regard. The Board which has been established has some verv capable men on it, but it seems to me that, if it is going to provide the most efficient servicB and is going to save money for the State. practically the whole of the time of the members will require to be devoted to the work for which the Board has been created. It is not a question of buying· a few thousand pounds' worth of material, or a few thousand pounds' worth of this or that, but a question of buying hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of material during the coming year. In order to get the be't service and effect the S3vinp;s which "u all desir·e the Board should have very wide powers in 'buying, and should be under the closest possible supervision of the Minister. We all realise the importance at the present time of saving a' much mono~ as w·e possibly can in carrying on our pubhc works. I think that thousands of pounds can be saved if the Board is given ":~'r.Y wide powers and the very clos?st superVISIOn 1s exerc1sed by the Minister m regard to the purchase of supplies and matorials for Govr rnment departments. I do not think that the activities of the Board should be confined to buying envelopes and paper and that kind of thing-I think the Board should have discretionary power in regard to buying

[Mr. Taylor.

for the Government activities. Those who are in charge of those activities should be in constant and close communication with the Board with r,•gard to their requirements, and they can supply the members of the Board with the prices for which articles can be obtained in the localities in which the,· arc operating. I think the Board can r.ender capable and efficient service if given the necet:l ary powers.

l\Ir. MAXWELL (1'ooworrg): I agree to a certain extent with what the leader of the Opposition has said with r~gard to the power, which it is neces,ary to g·ive thB Board. Personally, the members of the Board are very estimable men, although the Board might be ('onstituted di!Iercnth· from what it is. ;yJy contBntion is that to ROt the best results from a Board like this you must have business men on it. I would suggest the advisability of altering the personnel of the Board, with a view to having two or three businHs men upon it, instead of so many accountants. I stress tha.t point, because I really think that, irrespective of the sterling qualities of the acountants upon the Board, better results will he achieved by having more business men upon it. l commend that suggestion to tlw JHmister.

1\Ir. PETERSON (Xonna,,by): ·when the Commonwealth was ushered in we c.nne under the regime of interstate free tradr-, but the Southern State< have been able to got over that difficulty, as the Xew South \Vales and Victvrian Governments have given preference to theil' o'vn manufactures and thu~ contravened the principle of free trade \vhich it was ailcgecl would be brought about under federation. Seeing that New South vYales and Victoria arc seriously affecting the n1anufacturing intcr0sts of Queensland by adopting a nernicious system like that and subsidising their O\Yn industries, thus infringing the svstem of free trade mbodicd in the Federal Constitution, the Government of Queensland should retaliate and see that their manufacturers are protected similarh'. On reference to statistics we find that there has been very little increase in the number of industries in this Sta to. It simply means that we are ponalise,d as a State. as our manufacturers cannot tender against Southern manufacturers in thtlir own market on a.ccount of the protection which is givBn to Southern manufacturers by their State Governments. \Ve are not '"king very much when we ask that something similar should be adopted by our own Governntent to give son1e pro.-:lference to our local manufacturers, all things being equal as to standard. quality, and so forth. There is nothing extraordinary in thr.t. lt is merely asking that Queensland manufacturPrs should be put on thu same footing as tlwso in the other States.

Mr. ELPHIC>JSTO::\'E (O:ricy): I should like to emphasise the importance of the buying part of the activities of the State Stores Board. It is quite eimple to dispose of goods at a. proGt if they arc well bought, ancl I agree with the leader of the Opposition that closer attention should be given to tho question of buying. My remarks must not be taken as any reflection on tho men in chan;c, and I am not suggesting that any specral method of bu0 ing should be adopted· but the activities of the Government now a.bsorb a very great amount of money, and I would suggest that the State Stores Board should leave i tsolf open to receive Buggestions from business men as to methods whereby they

iiuppty. [:!G OCTOBER.] Supply. 1079

•can acquire material for the works in ' hich <he GDvernment are engaged. A good me1ny la bo11r and time saving devices arc cmning on ine market, and it might be nec'~'Rary to h'lve thcrn in,.,-t~stigated with a view to rh0i1· adoption. When engineers or storekeetJ.·r~ on Govern:tnent jobs in :i.is+ 1nt r1arts of th·! Si ate SC'Hl in requisitions for g<Jods they very frequently nanw thP class of l!cods thPy l'cquiro, and I know that the feeling nrPvails in the GovcrnmPnt Stor0s that it is better tD send them exactly whot they ask for; but the men in the far-distant. p1rte of the State may not be acquainted with the improvowents which modern industry and science havn pro\ idod, and thPrcforP it s0oms io me that thA functions ot: tlw Board might be more usefully discharge•! if i1 kept itself thoroughly a.cquaintor! ''"ith these• new jdcas. By that mean· wn rnjgbt keep our wmks right up to date and redllC' ,;,o cost of construction. I repctt that this 5Hftg\ '3tiort is not a r0flection 0n thf: nL~n 111

charge, hut merel:v a suggestion b~. \Yhich they may serve the State more usefully.

The TRE~\SURER (Hon. E. G. Theoclore. r:hill'f(JO,): The i:)tatr• Stmc- Board to which the le·:ulor of tlw Oppositiou has referred, oJ,d whi~h has been in existence for about the last four mouths, has not been constituted as a purchasiug bDard. Its object is to co-0rdinato the store su-vices of the different ~lepartm'cnh and brmg the whole of the organisation of the stores into harmonv. The Cl1iof Secretary's Department controls the State Stores Bra11Ch, which does the buying aud n1pplying of ;Jl the departments ••xce:Jt thDse which have their own Hores bran.chos and purchw·e their own requir·_ n1enh direct and not from the Government: Stores.

The Stat' Stores Board is not taking rlircd control of the purchasing busine~:,.,, and it i::: nc•t discharging the functions of a purchasing 1Joard.

The :Main Roads Board has purchased its motor ]orrice and plant through the State 'Stores Board. The Board consists of men of practical experience and \vith conl.niercial knowledge: and they would not he likely to act without getting the best possible advice regarding the things thoy have to purchase. Tho chairman of the Main Roads Board is ·consulted before tenders are accoptcrl, and he has an opportunity Df scrutinising the items. Bv those means "''' shall be able to got a fairly efficient and economic system and one that will no doubt result in considerable saving to the Govornm<Ont departments. This system will bring about co·ordination and at the same ti.me will do :n' ay \vit:h those irritating delays, losses, and Jr>conyemcnces which some of the departments thought would be the nece,sarv ·concomitant of the formation of the State Stores Br-ard. Some of the departments were very much opposed to the formation of the Board. "iow <hey can we that the Board can work cutirely in conjunction with the department requiring the stores and that they obtain a tremendous advantage, because the Board can purchllse to hotter advantage by reason of having a wider range of kno,v~ ledge and more experi<'nce. The Board has exporioncod buyers. and tho sum total of 'this organisation is that all the departments aro benefited. As I have alreadv remarked, tho State Stores Board will control the purchases for all depa.rtments with rthe exception of those which through circum-

stanC'es must necessarily be exr~mpt, such as the Hailway Department.

Mr. TAYLOR: \Vould it not be bciter for the Statrc Stores Boa re! to act in consnlta tion with the Railwav Department? They may bP purchasing th~ ,ame material at times.

The THEAf\URER: It mav be found neccssnrv to son1e extent to ro:ordinnte the opera1 ioi-Is of the f:tores purchasln g authority of the ]{ailwa',' DPportmcnt and the State Storc3 Board. 'rt may be that both authorities arP purchasing the same material, and that one· purchase could cover both. It was at first suggested that the Stat0 Stores Board should purchase for the Raihva,, Doparttnent. btn that departlnent rai-.:ed some obJection, chief!" on the ground that l\ 10rnat many of their purchases were of a h1ghh technira.l nature and th0 engineering .staff had to be in constant consultation in laying down the specifications :md in carrying out the 1wcc"ary 1 osts, etc. It was then thought that it was best to allmv the railway purchasing authority to purchasP the stores for the Raih<.-ay Department. ·whether that dlffiClJ.lty can be overcome I c~nnnt say- at present, but whatevcr development takes place will ho the ecsult of the experience gained by the State Stores BoanJ.

HoN. VI. H. B~\RXES (1T"J;nnnm): I am sura the information conveyed by the Treasurer is very acceptable to the Committee. I would lik<:' to fDllow up the remarks of the hon. member for Toowong by pointing Dut that it is highly c!Psirablo that the members of the State Stores Board should ha'" soma commercial knowledge. Xo doubt it would be an advantag·o if -uch were tho case. In saving- that I ~1n not in anv way reflecting nt~on 'the pr,osent members r::f the. Board. It would be manifestly unfair to do so.

I rose more particularly l"o point out one of the -disadvantages that exists at the prcRont moment in connection with the buymg. Perhaps it is a difficulty that the Government are not as well acquainted with as they ought to be. 'fhe remarks that I ~m about io mako are not ro be construed as reflecting on the manalremont of the State Produce Agency; but p'rior to the advent of the State Produce .AgPncy, y.;hencYer any lir..cs of produce wore required the plan adopted was lo send round and get quotations. Now that the State Produce Agency has been established, that institution has been allowed to execute orders a,t its own prices. If that were allowed to be done in everv Dthor walk of life it would be considered manifcsth· unfail'. A trading department, whether it' be the State hutclwr shops or any other trade departnwnt. has a right to be· placed on _allfours with the priv'ate firms that are qtwtmg. It will be seen at once that a great element o£ danger is associated with iL It will be perceived that with no competition they are t1ble to fix their own prices. That is a very grave temptation. If a Government department is to be run as "\veil as a private commercial department, the practice of asking pric-es from outside tlrms should be largely encouraged. The pwsent position is absolutelv unfair and unbusinesslike. The manager" is a. gentleman who does l1is work "\V ell. but, as I -aid, the temptation is groat and the principle wrong. If the turnover of the State Peoduce Agency-I am doalin~ with that enterprise more pariicularly-was analysed over a period of twelve months, it would bo found that quite one-fourth of the business was done with Government institu-

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

JUSO Sunply. [ASSE:\J:BLY.] Supply.

tions. It will be nt once seen what a mighty factor that is in running- an c~1terprisc:., and what a Lig thing it is to base the bnsine~s of the Ynrion:-:, Govcrnn1ent d',PUTtl11Pllt<:, at vour fillf."C r pr,,J~. A Governnwnt dP11artn1ent ;hould be prOJ1ared to gd iuto line with comnu.~rcin1 house·; if it is going tJ lin:) and conduct its busi"'"less on the ~ante lines as other people. Cumm0reial hot~o;es have to pay .-;tarnp dnti(~s and other taxation ,~,~hich the Stntc 1'rocltH Agency hrr.s not got to pay. Tlw princ·iplc is altogether wrong, and I \Yould like an expression fron1 the Tn·1sm·er in that regard.

Resolution agreed ro. Re -olutions 13 to 32, both inclusi,·e, agreed

to. Resolution 33-" Rail'l{"ays, Gcnrral Estab

lishnu·n·, Uhil'j Oifice''-

1\Tr. G. l'. I3AH'i'ES (ll'arU"i,·kl: It seems to me that u1attc'rs in connection "·ith railtY<l}' collstruction ;-~re~ at an.~: n.J', deYclopinr; in the minds of the people.

11hc 8IWRET.AHY i10R RAJL\VAYS: Thi-; resolution doe;S not clHtl "\vilh raihYaY con -iruc-tjon. ·

Mr. G. P. BAR~ES: I named Hcsolntions 33. 34. 35, aud 36, ~Ir. Spc tkCl', but you might rule me out of ord,,r if ·I stri~tlv conllncd ruv n~n~ark.~ to Rc,solution ::3. I should like. to know if I \Youlcl be pcrfc< tly in order in discussing Re"-olnt ions 37 to 36 togetlll'l' -~ I want to di,·cu~:- railways gentralJc·.

The SPEAKER : Hesolution 33 dc~ls with salarips and contingencies.

Me·. G. P. B.\R:'\ES: Th<.' amount g-ranted nndcr Hosolution 33 is £2.99S,u87, and I imap;incd that it had to do \Yith railwav construction. That is the n1:1tter I a"nt to deal with.

The SPEAKER: The maiter the hon. rncmber dPsil'Ps to di.scus.~ con1cs uudcr Hcsolu!ion 127-" Balance o-f Loan Fund Accol!l't." I '>'ill allow the hon. member to raise the question on that rPsolntion.

Mr. G. P. BAR:\'ES: I thank you <·xcecdingly, Mr. Sprakcr. Rc~o1ution c.1grced to. Resolutions 34 to 39, both inclusiYe, agreed

to. Hcc-:o!u!ion 40-" Court of Industrial

Arbitration "-Hon. IV. H. I3ARNES (Tl'ynnum): It

seems to me that just nov there is a danger of the s0'stcm of arbitration

[11.30 a.m.] breaking down. I refer more particu!ttrly to the unfortunate

happ~ening-and I do not express anv opinion as to \Yho should be blamed-in connf'ction ,dth a ('f'rtain indnstrv in Bri::-<banc. There is a likelihoo,{ of a br< ~kdown resulting on acrount of the in1nos:;;ibility of coming to an arrangcn1cnt. The important fac~ or in C0JlnC'Ction ith arbitration is that when an a\Yard is made bv the C' _~nrt it must be accepted b:- the parties coucerned. I do not want nn· remarks to be interpreted to mean that I haye no faith in judges, and no doubt judges may be obtained who will deal with the matter impartially, but I do think that in some cases arbitration could be better ('a,rried out b" men who have a thoroup;h knmYlcdg,. o( the bnsiness concerned. \V e arc in such a position that the GoYernmcnt 1nav use infltH'nco in the direction of seeing- that. when an arbitration decision is given, that decision should be

[Jion. W. H. Barnes.

obevcd. The Se.,rotarv for Public vVorks· must appreciate how ,:egrettable it is that ''Jmething is looming in the distance that will probably develop into a big strike or a. lockout. It is most regrettable if that cannot be obviated.

I do not know the experience of other hon. member'· but my experience is that thPre are a great nnn1bcr of n1cn out of employment at the present tillle, and, if this strike is going to eventuate, it will add to that number and the position will be Ycry serious. I therefore ask that the good offices of the ::\lini:;ter m a v be used to try to obYiatc thr_; troubl(?. \Yhlch~-,,ccJns to thro.::ttcn to increase very considerably.

:\'lr. TAYLOR (Windsor): As the hon. m0mbcr for \\'vnnum pointed out, it is regrettable that this unfortunate troublo ex isle. Just how it is goinf[ to be overcome it is ven· difficult to s.w. There should be> no reasoi~ whatever, nO\V' that the Industrial .'ubitration Court has been established, that the Government should ha YG to interfere in any shape or form. There should be no necessity for such interference. The Act hrts b,;cn brought into being and the machinery is there.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC \VORKS : You do not agree with the hon. member for \Yynnun1?

Mr. T:\ YLOR: ::\"o. Tl10 \Yhole machiner:· is there for both parties. I quite rcalis•' that Governments han' intervened in such matters. but thoro should be no· nc'cessity for it if the parties concerned only realise what the situation really is. I do not know the complete facts in regard to the present troubl<>, but a decision has been arrived at by the Arbitration Court Judge, \Yl10 said that the introduction of what is called the clock svstem was not contrary to the award. If th.e judge had said that the iutroduciion of the clock system wascontrary--

The SECRE1'ARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: \Vhat the judge said was that there was nothing in the a\\ ard that prevented the clock system being introduced, nor was there anything in the award that compelled the men to agree to it. It was not provided for in the award.

::\Ir. TAYLOR: I admit that you cannot compel men to work nor can you compel employers to open their <>"i.ablishments to· employ those men; but, if the judge had said that. the introduction of the clock system was contrary to the award, "·ork would have been started within twentv-four hom·s. There is no question a.h01;t that-the employers would simply haYe had to obey the decision of the Court. Instead of that we have had this unfortunate strike lasting· for several weeks. I would not like to think that there is a danger of the Arbitration Conrt sye;tem breaking down. Personally I do not think that there is, because I cannot see anYthing better at the present time. nor. when all is said and done, any· thinp; more just and equitable. ReYiewinffii the exporirence of the last few years. I fa1l to sec anything bett<>r looming on. the horizon. I think that GoYernmcnt mtcrferenre should be one of the last things to be brought. into operation. \Ve can neither make cn1plovecs go to \vork nor cn1plo_vers provide work. The position is nnfortunate. and it seems to me that greater r<>p;ard' should be paid to the fact that the Arbih·a-

Supply. [26 OcTOBER.l Supply. 1\JSl

-tion Court has becu established. not in the interests of ono section of the communitv but in the interests of us all, and that these strikes from which we suffer should be ·obviated by the efforts of the general community, so far as is humanly possible.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. \Y. Forgan Smith, Jiackay): I have listened with a great deal of interest to the views expressed b,- the hon. member for Wynnum and by the leader of the Oppo-·ition. Th" system of industrial arbitration that we have in Queensland at present is about the best that humqn ingenuity has yet devised. It deals with various contending economic interests, and auY Court or individual acting as Hrbiter between contending Bconomic interests has no easy task. So far as intervention in dispute;; and the remarks of the hon. member for \Vynnum are concerned, I wish to inform the Committee of what has taken place regarding the Minister's attitude up to the present time. I wish to say very definitely that it has itlways been m.'· policy as Secretary for Public ·works never to take sides in a dispute that is before the Arbitration Court. I consider that it \Yould be yery improper, when a dispute is before the Court and contention existed, for the Minister to take sides. _'l.ny activities in which he engages should be in the nature of conciliation, and acting as a medium between the contending parties and seeking for a common basis wher<?on a compromise might be arranged.

HoNOURABLE ME:\l:BERS: Hear, hear!

Hon. W. H. BARNES: That is reallv what I had in view. '

The SECRETARY FOR PeBLIC WC!RKS: I uuderstand that. and, generally speaking, agree vnt.h the Yiews the hon. goutloman expressed. vVhen the dispute took place in Sargeant and Cmnpa.ny's \Yorks it was duo t<.' introducing what is known as the clnck· ing sptem of co,ting. not only for ,,tartin!" work in the morning, at m ,d hours, and whrn knocking off at nig·ht, but also for checking the time when a Jnan startf' a iob and the time when he finishes it, oo that" an accurate t:ysto1n of costing can be carrie-d out. I have St'en a largo number of difierent syste1ns of co:-:ting in operation in YariclU9 parts of t.hP world, but with re>g·ard J·o the rnl~rits or dcmeritd of this dockjng sy::1·ern I have nothing to say. The pc·itlon i~ ihnt the n1cn refuse to \vork und~..,1· the svsterr1. The matt··r came before the Caurt, a,:.d the Court's decision was that there was nothing iL the award against introdu: ing 1his s)'SI;.lm, and that the cmplDycrs "'cro within their lega-l rip-bts in iutroducing it and. als•1 that tlw emplc,veos were within their ),gal ri".·hts in rofm3--ing to operate lJndcr it. There was no breach of the a \Vard inYolved in the di~pute at all. The Ironmast~rs' As:~ociation th(_•n ~~ked n1e ~o receive a dcJ?uta~ion. :vl~ich ~ o1d. one n1ght la~,t \Yl1 Pk u~ t,nr~ .:\hntsp•rs roon1. I met rPprcscntatiYcs of the Ironnlasters' AssoC'ia.tion tht~n r:nc1 di.;;cu~s·--J thn -.ituation with th._;m. I pointPd out V{'l':V

{·learly tha~: it was tho functio!l of the court to f'onsidcr thQ merit" of a di ,:;.:plli c antl nnt ~·he function of the sl~Crct-n'Y fpr Pl;blic \Vorb. Thev said thPv rr,alised that, lnn that they w0re approa~·'ting me bec·lmc I might bo able to brint-! abont a C'onfc~r~~n{;-\3 \vhich \vou1d enable th whole situation to be discu;;secl and porhaps SOlllC form of sPtllf'ment would eventuate. I then got into to<Ich

witb the unions conc0rncd and \vith the Trades 1J all C:om,·il' o Disputes Committee. to "horn the handling of the dispute had been n~ferred. I intervicv;ctl them the fo~knvjng day in the iVIinistPrs' room and di' mss<orl the eiit1ation with them, with the rr·,tlli. t.hat they stated they were p~c foeJ ly a.grpeablc to meet the Iron1nasters' AstJociatioH at ar:..:;- tinH:" to be mutually agreed upon, and they suggested a time and place. l\1y 5ocretary then informed the Ironmasters' Association of what had transniredj a.nd a"* a cQnsequence a conference was· hold last Friday afternoon. l' nfortunatoly the sugge .. tiDn that "as made letter on as a reo<.tlt of that conforenen was nppa.rentl:_;~ not accepted. No rrgr~ement -was anived at, and consequently the dispute went on. Ading under thr;ir power~> under the I11dustrial Arbitration Act thc> Ironmasters' A;.sociation then informed the Industri;tl Rcvistrar of their intention to take a ballot fDr a lock-out in the industry within the F<Ictories and Shops District of Brisbanr'. Tha-t ballot was taken, and the resu;t was published in the papNs the other day. Speaking from memory, I thmk the vot,mr; \\'aS 30 for the lock-out and 6 agamBt. C<:Jnspquently everything has beeu done up to the prc .. ent time in a perfectly legul. "a.y. A further conference wao; held-I thmt;: Mr. ,Tustice Douglas presided-but up to the present nothing has come of it.

l f the Ironmasters' ~~ssociation go aheacl >;ith the lock-out and there is a lock-out of the men engaged in the iron !nd~stry "·ithin the Factories and Shops DI~tnct •Jf Bnsbano it will mean that a large nmr,ber of men' will be locked out, and, in addition tD that, large numbers of men will he ictvolvod who ha.ve no ,av in the dispu~'' at all. Builders' laboure'i's, carpenters, watersl.dr' \':'dl'kcrs, and men engaged in othe1· foe m~ of IJ:Justrv will sooner or later be affectcrl. It is liko 8verv other form of dispute; it is one thinrr to start the dispute but a very differl'nt thin~ to "'ay -vvhcrc it i~ going to C'l}~l. rrhe louger the dispute lasts the more bLtt'"' the situation becomes. and the more d1fficult It is to effect a settlement. That is my experience, \vhich is a f~jrly \vido one.

\\'here the public interest is invol vorl a.3 suo-rrested uy the hon. member for \V,-rmum is this-the.t any spread of. an. industrial disjn:te is CDntrary to publw_ mterest, . as rt · f!'c•cts parties w!to are not mt.ere· .. ted m the o. iginal dispute. and suil'ering is . caused tlwrebv. endc•r the Industnal Arbttl'atwn Act the Socretan- for Public \Vm·ks has fJO\ver to do ccrta:in things. IIc ho.J.i:S po-\\ or :o rnove the court ·with a vic1.v to bringing abont a settlcn1ent, but he has 1~o PO\V:_r-

and it would be a vcrv unv.rise thing to r,tternpt to usurp th:lt pCnvcr-to ont er. ~nto the n1atter and seck to Sf'Curo a, dc·c•·--:1on. The -'\.Iinister. in the public interest. can move the Court v.ith a vi.· w to prcvPntlng any sprc·ad of the dispute over il larger section of \• orkers. Ol' with a. ,~iPw to bringing abont <L

furl·hcr CDI!fcrenco. That is the cxtL Jt of U1c JYTinister's influence. ancl Li"> po·.nn~s aro dcfin,•d in the Industrial Arbitratio" Act. At the request of unions and of emploYers, ju:__:t as in the caso of thf; iron1nast\:r~, I iutYe in the past been instrumental in bring· illg about conference, which havr pnvPd the '\\ i"v for a bctH('ment. I haVt' done th d ir1 nnite a large number of in~ianc·~~. and I tlJ1nk it is 1n,v dutv to u '>e rny ~entices in that direction where they can he of n.ln,J: but it can onlv be done in the w;,•: Df an inter· 111 ~diary .bringing the contcilding PJ rties

fJ on. W. Ji'organ Smith. J

1983 Supply. [ASSE:.liDLY.] Supply.

together -with a vil""W to th(•ir settli!lh the dispute thC'rnsclves, or \Yith a \-iew to Jncn-ing the court to give an award or calling a con· {('u:mce to arrive at a scttlen1ent. That is the position as it stands.

Mr. MOORE (.~ubiany): The suggestions that have been made by the Minister in con· ncction with this strike or lock-out ~eem to be reasonable in one way, but uppnrently the object of haviug a conference is that suggestions might be made whereby ": com).Tomise will be anived at. Anybody who has read the resolutions put forward at the conference can quite understand thut it was rtevcr meant that a satisfactory conclusion should be arrived at. The resolution~ that were put forward were to the effect that the 1nen were to go on for :;;ix months aR they were working and then they would decide whether the' would work under the dock S\'Stcm or not and their deci>ion was to be finai; that made a settlement absolutely impossible.

The SECRETARY FCJR PcBLIC \'\' ORKS : You a.re mixing the thing up altogether. The rl~olutions von are referring to W(·rc rcso]ulions carried by the employeeB of Sargcal't and Company.

:\fr. MOORE: T,hose are the ones I am referring to.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \\' ORKS : The conference that was held was between n'presPntatives of the Ironn1a::.h~r~' A:'lsociation and the Trades Hall Council's Disputes Committee a.nd representative' of the unions rcmccmed-quite a different thmg.

Mr. ::vlOORE: What I am referring to is tlw conference held b!' Sargeant and Company with their employees. If there is a d.sire to arriY-e at a reasonab:e solution of the difficulty you do not expect one side to put forward absolutely impossible conditions. in<'lucling a condition that, although they have broken an award of the c:ntrt, thev are to be paid for the time they did not w'ork.

Th(' SECRET.iRY FOR PcBLIO WORKS : There was no broach of the a ward.

J'cir. MOORE: I do not know what the hon. gentleman c<1lls it. but when the court ,a:iYr's an a·ward and tho n1cn refuse to \vork undPr it---

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLic ·wORKS : Y on are untire]y \vrong.

Mr. MOORE: Is it not admitted bv the :\1 :niste1· that, if the judge had decided against the use of the clock, the works would have been started the next day ?

The SEORE.rARY FOR PUBLIC vY ORKS : In any case, I do not think any good results will be achLved by entering into the merits or demerits of the dispute here and taking sides.

Mr. ::vlOORE: \Ve want to S?C the spirit of the Act carried out. It is not only a question of arbitration, there is the question of conciliatior: as well. That was one of the main reasons wh:v the Act was brought in by the prcsPnt Premier. The point he strEssed most of a;i was not the need of always going to the court, but the necessik for conciliation. I would imprc·s' upon the Minister the advisability of endeavouring to limtt the strike to 1he wcrks in connection with which the dispute began. and to bring about a conciliatorv spiri" <o that work may be r·esumed and there will be no danger of ·the dispute spreading.

[Hon. W. Forgan Smith.

The St:CRLTARY FOR PuBLIC \YORKS: You do not seem to realise the difficultir,. The· :r\1inister must not usurp what is a judicial· function.

Mr. :MOORE: I do not think the Minister should usurp a judicial function, but .a Minister of the Crown, esp"cially one repre..::enting union organisations, can exercise a good deal of influence on the sections of workers he is connected with. His suggestions would possibly carry more W'ight than those of the court. I think the Minister would be woii a,dvised in cases of this sort to use his influence as far as possible to· endeavour to bring about a conciliatory spirit, and see if >an end cannot be put to a dispute which is really only with regard to the effici<mt carrying on of an establishment.

There is anothm· matter in connection with the Industrial Arbitration Court to which I wish to refer. A little while ago we had a strike a1non~" •') certain section of se'''Tcragc worker . I would like to know whether the Act wa, adhered to as regards taking a baiiot, and the notification to the registrar, and whether the baiiot wa·; carric>d, and the detarl, of the voting. The report in the Press was no,. ai ail clear to me.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The Industrial "Registrar was kept in touch with !he v.hole thing.

,h. :V100RE: I am satisfied with the :\1inister's explanation. It did not appear :ike that from tho reports in the Press.

Resolution agreed to. Resolutions 41 to 71. both mclusive, agreed

to. Resolution 72-" Lazaret~'--

Mr. GLEDSO~ (Ipsu·ich): I want lo bring the position at the lazaret at Peel Island before the Government. This matter has been dPbated in the House almost every year. A number of hon. members visited the lazaret and made certain recornmcndations, some of \rhich have been carried out, while othNs have not. I want to make a, special plea for further assistance fo;· the nurse at present In

the lazaret. I find from the repod of the Commissioner of Public Health that there are fifty-five patients on the island-twentyfive white males, ten white females, seventeen coloured males, and three coloured females. During the vear there have been live patients discharged-four males ctnd one female-while there have been six admissions. Three new cases have heen "~dmitted, and thr<"c readmitted. That would show that there has been one additional case during the vear. The nurse has to look after th" whofe of the·e patients. The doctor visits the island once a we<>k. The nurse has to go rour,d from hut to hut attending to those who are unable to leave their huts, and ;t is too much for one nurse to do. Applicauca has been mad<> previous!,- for assistance. and I want tc put in an additional plea w-dav for that assistance to lw given, otherwis-2 it 'v:ill n1ean that the nnr.sc will have to leave the island, as she will be unable to C(Jll~ ir1uc to stand the strain which is being put Hpon her. ::)he has bee:1 there five months, and during that time she has only had eight da:·s off duty. She has to make evf'rv week frorr1 thirtv to fortv intraycnous inj~ctiOns. which take up a consi.derable tim", in addition to attending to drPssings and other matters. Peel Island i., a scatt.,rcd place, and the nurse has to e;o some distance·

Supply. [26 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1983

from one compound to another. It is not as iJ it were in a hospital and the patients were close together. The coloured people arc by therr1selve, in a corn pound, and the white people are separate from them. I want to mention what has been done in connection with the treatment of lepers in other parts of the world. I have here a report showing how the British Empire set out to d"al "ith the l<>pcrs in the Pacific hlands. and it is being done on a thorough scale. ri1 he:v organised one Island-Makongai -and set it apart on the 'ugg<"·tion of an eminent British doctor. The report states-

"A staff of farmers, gardeners, dairymen. tradesmen, and police readily forthcoming, and when M akongai was readv to receive its lepers, the staff was complete.

" The hand of British0rs has carried on eYer since, undeterred by isolation and triumphing in the cure of the many lepers constantly lea' ing the island. When 1\Iakongai first was opened there were 600 lepers, to-da v there are le~c; than 300, and it now is de-finitely assured that l0prosy is being stam pod out of the British islands of th~ South Pacific."

In connection with the workers, it says-" Is it not right that the world and

at least the Ern pire, should c01~e to know of the groat and noble work of Makongai, to be told that every month a leper is discharged from the asylum, curPd, clean, and wholesome· and that this work goes on year after y'ear carried on . hy B_r!tishers who giV>e their lives, thmr abihhes, their ambitions to the ~:me generous and noble purpose of holpmg their much scourged fellnw men and women, victims of the saddest of human r)iseascs-leprosy. This band of workers liYe .in the deepest isolation, far from relatwns and friends, from many of the pleasures and comforts of life. And lhey work on untiringly, giving all, without thought of earthly reward."

Th~t also can be applied 10 the nurse who 1~ In attendance at PNll Island. I should hke the Government to see if some assistance cannot be given to the nurse to enable her life to be a little easier than it is now.

. HoN. W. H. BARNES (Trynnum): I should hko to supplement the remarks made by the hun. member for Ipswich. Anyone who has been on Peel Island must feel that the services which aro being rendered there b\ the nurse are in the interests of the comm"imitv

generally and of those who find [12 noon] themselves depres,ed'' a., the

r·esult of their isolation. Mv c·xperience in connection with Peel Islan;l has been that many of the patients imagine they should not be there at all, 'and thev have extravagant notions as to what should be done for them. I say without he~itotion that any person who "does work there in the capacity of warder, male or female. or in any o.ther capacity, is doing splendid service, particularly when we remember that such a pC'rson very largely cuts himself or herself off from society, becctuse nobody goes to Peel !&land from choice. Anyone who has been there must have come away ver>:. very d<'pressed. I can well remember that during the time of Mr. Airey's administration of the Home Department the inmates ,rero anxious to get a dentist to attend to them. and hon. members can well understand the

difficulty which was experiPnced. I feel that the nurse to whom reference has been made by the hon. member for Ipswich is doing work like that of Father Damien-a service which everybody in the community ought to appreciate very highly. Such persons are isolated on an island without the possibility of seeing nunv friends, and notwithstanding the Yen- best ·that can be done at times of the year the conditions are anything but pleasant hecause of the mosquitoes, Hnd anything that can be done to make !if" there more bearable should be done.

Rcsol ution agreed to.

R<>solutions 73 to 82, both inclusive, agreed to.

Resolution 83-" 'l'hc 'l'reas1lry-Harhours and IliL·ers''-

Mr. S\VAYXE (Jlirani): I should like to sav a word or two on this vote on the quoslien of the docking accommodation of Brisbane. I think it is generally admitted by ihosC' persons who have looked into the subject that it is most inadequate, and that very urdavourable rc:-:;ults arise in f'onscquence. lt may ho urged as st1·ange that I, a country member, am suggesting the expenditure of a considerable amount of monev at Brisbane, but in reply I would point out that this inadequacy of docking accommodation affects the interests of the primary producci·s, b(•cause in getting their produce to the markets of tiw world ey,cry facility should be afforded; in fact, it is a matter of necessiL: for t.hem. Sometimes it is urged that some o-f the oc'angoing shipping lines should make Brisbane their terminal port and I know· that ono of the objections to such a course is the lack of proper docking accommodation here. It is natural that shipowners should wish to dock their y,essels when they are empt~, and that naturally occurs when all the cargo has been discharged at a. terminal port a11d she is ready to load up for the return journey. At the present time it is impossible to dock a largo vessel in Brisbane. I do not think the present dock is >afe for a vessel of much oYer 2,000 tons.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: Do you mE an the dry dock?

Mr. SW A YNE : I am referring to the dock to which this vote applies. I know from the manager of one of our coastal shipping companies that once or twice they docked a vessel of only about 4,000 tons-bv no mc·ans one of their largest vessels-but the risk of breaking her back was so great that they never docked her here again. Amonl!st the coastal ships trading to Qucensl<lnd we have Yes;els up to noarlv 8,000 tons. I believe the "Canberra " is that tonnag-e, and the " \Vyreema" is oV>er 6,000 tons. 'l'he gentleman to whom I refer Cbtimaled that from his firm alone £30.000 worth of Wl'd<: would go to the engineering s,hops her8 i11-B1·is bane if there was a dock to accommod ,, t& its ve,·els. There are other coa,tal companies with offices here whose businC'ss wou.ld amount to a considerable sum, and I am told' that altogether nearly £100.000 wol"th of work for the iron-working and other trade,. could be kept in Brisbane if we had an up-todate dock for the coastal trade alone. I suppoBe that a like sum would result from the overseas vessels; so that hon. ,members can s0e that the construction of a good clock here would probably mean £200,000 worth of work a year for our engineering and allied trades, whilst, as I have already pointed out, such

JJ.fr. Szcayne.]


accommodation would greatly facilitate the placing of our primary produce on the markets of the world. As bearing out what I say I "ould like to draw attention to rt d<'b tto which took place in this House in 1913. v hen the Denham Government wore in office. Ono of the present Ministers, then in opposition. is reported on page 2184 of " Hansard" for that year as follows :-

"Mr. I-IccxJIAM (JJuranda): The m"tter mentioned by the hon. member for l'llaree was deserving of serious consideration. The testimony quoted by the hon. member in reference to the inadequacy of the docking accornn1odation in Brisbane ho had read jn the newspaper, and he kne\v that skilled nwn had had to go south in order to earn a living, because there was not sufficient employment for them in Brisbane. It was no wonder that we had not high-class workmen hPro for that particular class of work, when thr · were only employed a portion of their time. The Dry Dock cost something liko £60,000."

If those remarkB were true in 1913, I certainly think the case is doubly strong ton years later. for I suppose the si7c o! the vessels coming to Brisbane has doubled since· then.

It has struck me that, if it comes to a question of cost and the availability of funds for the construction of an up-to-date dock, some of the money which is being spent in an unproductive way-on bricks and mortar or building stone-might well be employed. Take, for instance, the big building which has been commenced to complete the Treasury block. \Vo are often told that the Government offices are cong<'- ted, but just a little while ago the State Insurance Building was opened and must have afforded a good deal of accommodation for our State departments, and it seems rather strange that so soon aft0rwards we should have this other big building going up. I think it is quit;:, logical to suggest that that building, which we are told is likely to cost £230,000, might well have been dispensed with for a few years and the money better employed in the construction of an up-todate dock which would take the largec-t ship tra-ding to this port. It would be greatly to the advantage of everybody engaged in the engiueering trades here as well as our producers. V{ e ar0 told that those trades are often slack, perhaps more slack on the whole than any other trade, and ono of the difliculties in getting apprentices indentured to such a trade-\' hich many of our boys want to follow-arises from the fact that our ongiueering shops arc not ah• ays sufficiently employed. Hon. members will see. therefore, that the construction of a dock in Brisbane would be of advantage in many ways. It would be of advantage' to the mPn already engag{'d in the engineering trades and also to our boys who are anxious for opportunitie'c to learn a trade. I understand thP qun.:tion of fl ~itc is a diflic>u1t.\'. A sitP at Ih,milton has been mentioned. and it has also been suggested that in order to save overhead charges a new dock should be constructed alongside the present one. It has aho boon stated that there is not a good foundation alongside the old dock. This is all a matter for investigation. An >'ngineer on one of the ocean-going boats \?to other day suggc·-,ted Kangaroo Point ,~ a site. I do not know whether that is

~Mr. Swaync.

witable, as I am onh a layman. His argu· ment in favour of the Kangaroo Point site was tha+ there crmld be -a double-ended dock which could be lengthened or shortened as required by moving the caissons. It could take two or three :.mall vessels, or it could take the largc-,,t vessel that comes here, and at flood time it could be cleared of all obstruction and be an additional vent for the outlet of watrr from the upper reaches of the river. I thought this was a suitable time to bring this matter forward. Everybody must realise what an advantage it would be if we had sufficient docking space to take the largest oversea ships that came to our port. \Ve certainlY should have suflicient space to take our largest coasters. It is only the sm11.ll boats of 2,000 to 3,000 tons, so far as n1v inforrnation goes, that can be docked here." 'l'he Treasurer could very well consider this matter.

Resolution agreed to. Hesolutions 84 to 98, both inclusive,

agTeod to. Hesolution 99-" Irrigation and TVater

Snpply Cornrnission (Inkerman Irrigation Area Fund) "-

Mr. TA YLOR (Windsor): The question of irrigation ha:s been pretty well thrashed out, but I would like to suggest that in connection with works of such magnitude there should be utilised the services of some one other than an ordinary bookkeeper or clerk to keep a close check on the accounts and thus prevent undue expenditure and see that everything is being carried out in the most efficient way. \Vhen we are spend· ing millions of pounds on undertakings to employ a first-class accountant at £1,000 per annum would be money well spent. The experience of the Government in con· nection with the Inkerman irrigation area will show the nec:•JS'ity for carrying out my suggestion. The individual I have in mind v.'ill not be reoponsible to the Png·ineer in charge, but will be responsible to the Minister and the Minister onlY. He should have full control of the accounts of all these large public undertakings, and the Minister or his Under Secretary should kPep in absolute close touch with tho progTC'S payments that are being made ancl in close touch with all the commitments. Probably tho first information a Minister g<'ts that there is an cxcc,,sivc expenditure is when ~f~rtain reports or stat,;ments ar8 placed before him b, those in char!J;C of the work. It is abcolutely e<scntial that a first-class accountant. with a verv wide knowledge of tho work. should be pl~ccd in control of the expenditure on the Inkcrman and Dawson VallPy irrigation areas. so as to 0xcrcise tb 1t chock which is absolutelv ncccssarv on a large expenditure of Gm·ornment f~mds.

l\Ir. MOORE (A.ubiuny): I notice that there is a sum of £15.000 proviclcd by this t·csolution. The Commissimwr of Irrig-ation in his report states that it will trrke £65,000 t-o complete this scheme. I do not quite understand what he means bv the word;, "to complete the scheme." If he means that by the expenditure of £65.000 we ar~' froing- to bring ini"o the jrrigab}r nca 18,000 acre' instead of the 2.500 acre' that wo haYO at prc';:'nt, it would b0 \Yisr' lTIO\T on the part of the GoYernmcnt to expend that £65,000 and bring the scheme to a eomplPtion rather than leave it in its prcoent condition. It has been a costly experiment


so far, and we might as well go the whole hog and bring it to completion rather than leave it uncompleted. For about five years the hon. member for Bowen endeavoured tn explain that the scheme would not be over-capitalised, and that the amount of monev that was being spent would be easily born-;, by the people living in the area because of the increased production that would result to them.

Mr. COLLINS: The hon. member for Bowen :never said anything of the kind.

Mr. MOORE: Now, when it has been found that the scheme is grossly overcapitalised and the money has been squandered in a reckless and inefficient manner and without getting anything like the benefits that we should have got, he does not say much about the farmer being able to carry the burden ·and being able to pay the interest and redemption from his increased output of cane. \Vhen we get a report saying that £65,000 is required to bring the scheme to completion it should be brought to completion, so that we can see where we are rather than spend a small amount and leave the scheme unfinished. If it has got to be a failure in the end, let us have the completed ,cheme and not a half-finished scheme. When it is completed we shall see whether the expenditure has been justified, and whether there will be any benefits for the farmers, as we were given to understand the1·e would be. It is wrong to leave the scheme halffinished, especially when the discrepancy between the pre9ent irrigable arPa and the acreage that will be included in the irrigable nrea on completion of the scheme is so large. The whole scheme is going to be disastrous to Queensland unless we can bring it to a proper state of efficiency and ascertain whether we can work it on a profitable basis without placing too heavy a burden on the taxpayers.

Resolution agreed to.

Resolutions 100 and 101 agreed to. Resolution 102-" Cotton 'l'rading Ac-

count"-

HoN. W. H. BAR~ES (Wynnum): The cotton business has been thrashed out pretty considerably during this session, still each -day seems to bring with it further light from other ,sources-more particularly with regard to ratoon cotton-and, unfortunately, conditions generally in Queensland are dry at the present time. I want to ask the Premier -althow;h he is not in charge of this itemif he does not think that even at this late hour some consideration should be given to the matter of ratoon cotton. The hon. member for Warwick quite recently brought forward facts and figures, certainly not with regard to Queensland. but with regard to <me of the islands adjacent to Queensland. He pointed out !hat ra to on cotton topped the market in Britain and elsewhere. I am advised that in the columns of ono of the newspapers this morning it is statE'd that South Africa is considering an alteration in their methods of growing cotton. It will be admitted that, if cotton is going to be a success-and we n.ll hope it will be, special consideration will have to be given as to whether it is advisable to grow ratoon cotton or not. Even at this late hour the fullest consideration should be given to the question of whether we have done all we can in connection with ratoon cotton. I

1923-6F

referred to this matter on a previous occasion and made a suggestion that the Government, even if they did nothing further in the way of legislation this session, should test some of the ratoon crops which may be retained in desirable localities.

The TREASURER: The Minister has undertaken to do that.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I am sure that the hon. gentleman will see that is carri0d out. The matter is of vital importance to Queenshnd. Fresh industries are needed to be startf,d successfully. It would have been a good thing for the company to have spent money introduced from outside sources, but now apparently they seem to be getting the money from an inside source. The more companies properly controlled that will come and invest in new industries the better it will be for Queensland. We should endeavour to keep them in instead of trying to keep them out. It would be disastrous if thP industry is not a ,succe<s after receiving the investment of Queensland money as well as money from the other t\tates and from outside sources. The conditions unhappily are dry, and the prospects for the season are not altogether bright. I hope that rain will soon come and that the prospects of the cotton crop will improve. The Tr•easurer will be doing a service to Queensland if he treats this matter, not in the light of those gentlemen who are interested, but in the light of the mills and in the light of the farmer who is trying to make a living in Queensland.

Resolution agreed to. Resolutions lOO to 112, both inclusive,

agreed to. Resolution 113-" Soldier Settlement"-

Mr. KERR (Enogyera): I would like the Trea"urer to indicate what is the intention of the Government in regard to doing what is so necessary in relation to the large arnount of money that has been spent in the settlement of the soldiers on the land. Queensland has spent well over £2,000,000 of loan money on these settlements, and the rei urn to-day for that expenditure is practically nil. In view of the fact that these settlements have been in operation for a number of years, I want to know if it is the intention of the Government to tackle the very serious problem that has arisen and see whether it is possible so to assist these soldiers that there will be a return to the State for the money that has been spemt in trymg to secure for tlwm a hvehhood. As has been pointed out on previous occasions the land which these men have been placed on has not been satisfactory. The amount of loan monev made available was insufficient to give" them a proper start in life. In fact, it might almost be said that everv effort has been made to make the settlement of the soldiers on the land a failure. 'l'he question has not been tackled properly. A number of large land settlement 'ehemes have been approv.ed of by this Chamber, yet 2,000 of poss1bly the best settlers in Queensland have not been able to make a success on the land bv reason of the wrong advice that has been tendered to them under the jurisdiction of the Government. They were filled with hopes before thev went on the land by pamphlets issued by the Agent-General in London, and by propaganda made on behalf of the Government after they reached Queensland. They were

Mr. Kerr.]


led to believe that everything m the garden was to be lovely, and they utilised their gratuity bonds, amounting to from £50 to well over £100, in endeavouring to make a success of their new undertaking. They also used their deferred pay, amounting to a la1·ge sum of money. but they have reached the unfortunate stage to-day of not knowing which way to turn.

These settlers, after spending their all and giving many years of their lives to accomplish their purpose, aro now in a ""~.\·orse position than when the,- started. I do not want it to be said that the soldier settlements in other parts of Australia havo been a Euccess, but I want to know what the intentions of the Government are in this mattet·. The Government havo quite recently appointed a Revaluation Board, but I say, without hesitation, that that Board is merely pla~·ing with the question. What is the good of reducing the liabilitib of the settlers bY £50 or £100, when the settlers are unable to pay one penny of interest? The Govern1nent could relieve them of the whole of thoir loan liability, and ihen they woulJ not have a chance of success. This c1ucstion has not to be tackled merely on the baeis of :-e-caluation. The rnen arc gro,ving produce for which no market exists. They should be accordeJ a chance on some of the better >ll'eas to produce a commodity for which we have a n1arkct. The settlers haYc been unsucc,,,,,fnl uccauso they wcro placed on !mY-class laud lo grow products for hich there is no market. The Revaluation Board

\\as a ppointcd by the Govern[12.30 p.m.J ment in compliance with an elec-

tion pro1ni::-,e. Last S£'ssion I moved that a Roval Commission should be appointed, and I , de bat·- d the question for SOJJlC tin1c and gave n1y reasons for the appointment of that Con1rni-.;sion. Those rc>aoons -till hold good to-day. If such a Commission had the power to deal with the proulcms that l refencJ to, and to go into the question of giving thes<' soldiers a chance of securing a profitaLle livelihoo-d, I c msidor that it would be justified. But the Government sit tight and lot thbe soldiers eke out a living and gradually leave the repurchased estates on which they have been placed. \Ve have hundreds of 300-acro blocks with vacant houses in a state of disrepair, and the land cm·ered with weeds. That deplorable state of affairs exiets under the present regime. I appeal to the Premier to stop this aste of public loan money, and to g·ive these soldiers a '" go." Tho Revaluation Board ·works more or less on the book principle. It says that the book imp1·ovcn1cnts stand at a certain figuro, and that when the soldiers were placed on the land they cost so much, and the difference is Y.Titten off. ::\1anv of these soldiers have receiYed from £50 UpW:trds in the Wrty of loan n1onc":; for sustenance. That is how some of the loan money has gone. and that loan 111one•t ifl not being talum off tllf' valnations. The sustenance should be takc,n into consideration and a portion of the load taken oft the shoulders of the soldier settlers. The Government · hould take everything- into cons1deratwn, and should no longer penalise the~e men by allowing them to rerr1ain on useless settlements. Rather than ask that any monfltary consideration should be passed for the time and money they have expended, I say that they should be compensated by placmg them on new lands; bv giving them the same conditions as would· apply to new

[ iflr. J{ err.

settlers coming into the State. That would' be only j Listice to these men, who weremisled in a number of instancb bY pamphlets and by c.ther information th~t v.-as promulgared. They should have achance.

1\lr. W. COOPER: \Vho misled them?

Mr. KERR: The~· were misled from the word •· go."

Mr. V\', COOPER: By whom?

Mr. KERR: I have distinct recollectionsof the t-ime when I came home from England, \Vhcn propaganda v.~a8 issued about tho BeerLurrunl settletnent, and the possibilities of growing pinc'lpph~s, etc., there. We know that the ground is unsuitable and the settlernent of no use.

~Mr. Vi-. COOPER: You aro not answering n1y CIUC.:ltion. By \vhorn vverc thev misled?

Mr KEHR: The situation is desperate. We have paid tens of thousands of pounde from tJ1c finances of the State, irrespective of the grant,; received from the Commonwealth, and still this stat-e of affairs goes on. The Gm·ernmcnt have not tackled the question as they should, but have brought in theirllseles,, Revaluation Board.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member is not discussing the vote.

Mr. KERR: This is a loan vote. The TREASURER: The administration of

soldier settlements is charged to revenue.

Mr. KERR: I feel quite sure that I am entitled to discuss tiw question. I would like'tn indication from the Treasurer as to theintention of the Government in this matter.

Mr. \VARREX (J[urrumba): It seems tO> me that this vote of £50,000 is simply going into a sink. The solJier settlements generally are a failure, and that is not due to the· bum an clement so far as the soldiers are coEcerncd. My sympathy is absolutely with i lw se ldier settler on the land. I consider that this scheme is one of the worst blunders that any 11inister has ever committed. Year oy year we he_ve to pass loan money to bolster up mistake"- made in the past. Allowin)l' that the human element that wa~ responsible for tlJC failure of, say, Beerlmrrum, has gon,,, thr,se ntcn have been ailo\ved to r,eiTI<-Lin in distress and have gradually become smaller in r:umber through the process of starvation a:td elimination. I consider these soldier scttlon are orthy men, and that something different is needed to the present proC('SS of advancing loan money each year.

The hon. member for Enoggera has repeatedly maJo the statement that these men were on baJ lands, and that, as they could not make a success of that land, thcv should be transferred to other land and allowed to start afre~h. I think that would be the cheapest mcthoJ of overcoming the difficulty. I do not mean for a moment to convey tho idea that a lot of our soldier settlements could not be ;old and that we could not make good a lot of that settlement. The failure of the soldier settlements has been due to three causes. In the first place they were overcapitali' d. In the second they were allowed to g·n in for o\·er-production, with the result that wc could ·not secure markets. Fruit seem" to have been the only thing that we put our soldier settlers to grow. In the Southern States an amount of success was gained by allowing the soldiers to cultivate

Supply. [26 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1987

wheat. \V 0 have far too manv soldier settlers growing fruit-I think that -i,"e incr·eased the fruitgTowers by 1,800. The third cause of th0 disaster was bad management.

The SPEAKER : Order !

lHr WARREN : I know that you would pull me up for that. 1\fr. Speaker, because it does not deal with loan mono·:. At the same time, it is one of the causes ·leading to the waste of loan money, and on that account notice should be taken of it.

Wlwn tho elections were taking place the Trer,sur·•r made two promises that stand out prominently in my memory. One was that a Board would be a.ppointed to do something for Eeerburrum and other soldier settlements. The other was that the over-capitalisation of thC' InkcrmaE irrigatiDn scheme would be dealt with immediately. The latter promise was carried out to the fullest extent, and I do not object to thut, because it is a stunid ,,.,_,sL of energy for men to try to produce successfully from land that has been overcapitalised. The promise ,,-ith regard to solrlier settlements was not carried out, and I as'< that the Treasurer ,}wuld go comprc·her,sivel.' into the scheme of soldier settlement and do something. Even if the fir,t loss is heavy, it would be far better to lose that moncv and make these men contented and prosperous rather than have them dragging on y car after yoar and spendmg more loan money for very little benefit.

;\L·. EDWARDS (Tanm'lgn): It is well known to every hon. member tha.t \Ye have discussed the soldier settlement question over and ovor a.gain and time and again the Government hav·P been asked to appoint a practical board to go into the whole question.

The, SPEAKER : Order 1 The hon. member will not be in order in discussinrr the quc::;tion on those lines. e.

}lr. ED\VARDS: Tl1C' Government wnuld be 'sell advise.d if thcv follo-.,cd the advic" of the hon. membu- for Enoggera and at once got down t0 tintacks in this matter. It must be app>Lrent to evervone that. n11 hough the Government and the Secr.Aarv for Pnblic Lands h::ve taken i·his question o'f solcher settlement m hand, the right thing has nnt been done. Day after dav the soldiers on the Coominva Settlement are 'leavinrr iheir holdings, which means a great vvaste ~o the State, and that applies t0 almost evcrv other ,,,_:dier settlement. l hope the Gove~'nment will see that those s0ldiers who are still sticking to the land are given fair treatment, and that the Government will appoint someo'!-e whD has had a practical knowledge of \Vliat the sold1ere are trying to do in o:;'dor lo ad:vise the snldiers. With all due respect to the Board that has bccm appointed, [ ~n.y the person who is going to give aclvico io ihe soldiers which will enable them to make a .-.uccess of their venture requires to !m:ve a knowledge of the work that the soldiers are trying to do. ~\ BD>Lrd that can give advico on fruitgrowing will be of very !ittle use to give advice on ·d1e O'rowina of cereal crops in the dry belts of Quocml~nd. As the hon. member for Enoggera pojnted <'llt, in rnany instances the holdings havu been abandoned and the improvements loft to go to ruin. I know of instances in mv own electorate where soldiers have left thci'1· homes and the houses are deserted, a.nd, it the Government continue on present line·,, 1t wdl mean that the money which it is

proposed to expend unde1· this v0te will go into a sink. I h0pe the Government ·will do· something definite in the interests of the soldiers, and that they will not desert men who have been struggling for a number of yearo trying to make good on their areas.

:\fr. MOORE (A.zrl;igny): Some little time ag0 I received a c0py of a letter written b\ the Sailors' and Soldiers' Fathers Association, Toowoomba Branch, and l think the Premier also received a copy, "\vith referencP to a visit they paid to the Cecil l'lains Soldier Settlement to investigate tho con,htions thew, and in that letter they make

· certam suggestions to the Premier with regard to this settlement, which im·olved iuereascd grants a.ncl a reductiou in vaJuatic:Jns. I do not know what stops the hon. gentleman l1as taken in connection with this matter-w,hether he has decided to meet the request of the Fathers As,ociation or not; hut they h~ve put their case very suc.:inctly. A gre;tt m:my of the soldiers 011 that sdtlement imagine th, y have not re< ·'i vcd the· r,dva.nce that as pl'Dmised. They were led to believe in the " Soldiers' Settlement llirectorv" of 1919 that thev were to receive an advance up to £575 for stockin;:: pur0JOS<"·',

and that in addition a sum of £625 would be advanced on the land. Evidentlv 1 here is s0me misunderstanding. The Fathers Association, after visiting Cecil Plans, '\V rote-

" \\~ e ask therofDre that the Government will take into cmsidcration the follov\~] ng ,as a n1cans of rdicYing tho position:-

1. Capitali"e the arrears, if an:·, of the rcntals due to tho department.

2. Extend the scope of the Soldiers' Settlement RevaluatiDn Board so that the holdings (i.e., land, implements, and stock) may be reviewed V'ith a_ view to reduction of capital value, wh](:h in turn \vill mean reduction in tcr.ttal and other payments to be made to the department.

3. Make available such p;11·t of the £575 (see page 7, ' Soldiers' St'ttlement Directory,' 1919; as may be neccssarv to carrv the settlers en till rain falls and they replenish their horde."

After close investigation they point out that the settlers on that estate can make good if thr·,r are given a reasoncl.ble opportnnitv. It is onk bee au<l of the want of rain ·during the last eighteen months that these~ settlers are in the nnfortunate position theY are in to-day; and, if the:· got further assistance, and the scope of the Board to inquire into the valuations of improveiT;ent~ is extended so that it can inquire into tho que,tion of the valuation of the land. they Ycill have an opportunity to make good. In a. fevv instances tho blocks have been a~anduned, a.nd .it will be for the Board to take into com;ideration all lho various points in Clmnection with this settlement and to sen that the money placed on the Estimates is , pent to the best possible advantage of thL l11Cn who aro still there. Thov have had mane· pamphlets issued to them," which quite a Hlmber of the men think arc misleading. I know of one instance where a 1nan eude~vov.red to get an a.ch-ance on a block 1rhic!1 was specially reserved for soldier sett lemon!priority \\as to be given to returned soldier . ., of good character. I know qui to well the block which was taken up by a soldier, and. after waiting ten months and applying for·

Mr. 1l1oore.]

1988 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply

an advance, he got a letter from the Department of Public Lands saying that, owing io the poor average rainfall in the district, the department considered the land was not sufficient security for an advance, and they refused to give it. A state of affairs such a,s that certainly calls for investigation. In such a case the settler should be given an opportunity to take up land on which he -can make a suitable living rather than be -compelled to stay on his present holding and in the end be fm·ced to ,abandon it after ail his work and a.fter spending all his money. Some of the .members of the Fathers Association at Toowoomba are practical men who have been on the land, and they took the trouble to go out at their own expense and make a personal investigation in order to ~ee whether the complainto they have been r·eceiving from the soldier settlomPnts are justified or not. They hav<l made their r0port, which should receive the fullest consideration from the Government. They are not endeavouring to put the Government in a hole. Their hon0st intention is to aosist the men who have gone on to these prop·crtics ro make an adequate living for themselves. I would like the Premier, if he has roc01 ved that communication, to state whether it is the intention of the Government to accede to the requests made, and to give these Beltlers the assistance they were led to expect would be given. The Government should Bither do that or give these men an opportunity of ~oing on to other land on which they can make a living.

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby): I wish to supplen,ent the remarks of the leader of the Country party. The Cecil Plains seUlcment i2 in my electorate. Two or three years ago I introduced a deputation to the late Secretary for Public Lands, who made certain promises which have not been honoured. We w·ere told that a State inspector would report on the conditions of each individual soldier to the Minister, who would subsequently visit the selection, but that has not been done. I can safely say that 90 per cent. of the settlers on Cecil Plains arc enitable for the class of work they are d.oing, but unfortunately they have suffered from drought conditions. The trouble there is in regard to area, the capital value of hnd, th" rental, and also the need of consideration "ith regard to arrea.rs of rent. I think we should t-reat soldier settlers even better than other settlers. All that these men are asking for is fair consideration. Although I did not have the opportunity to go whon the ToowoombaitPs went out-I was up there on another occasion-! realise that they are not men who are going out of their way to make complaints. They went out. in response tu statements they ha·d received from the soldiers as to their condition, and were acting from a patriotic and humane point of view. Thoro is no " stickvbeak" hnsiness su far as they a.re concerned_:_they are taking a special interest in the soldiers-and I would urge the Premier to give every consideration to the request they have made.

Resolution agreed to. Resolutions 114 to 126, both inclusive,

agreed to. Resolution 127-" Balance of Loa•! Fttnd

Account, 1923-24 "-HoN. W. H. BARNES (Wynnum): Pro

bably the most importani; question facing Queensland to-day is with regard to loan money. I take it that the most important

lMr. Moon~.

question is really the visit of the Premier to the old country in connection with maturing loans. There is nothing so vital t.o Queensland just now as our being "ble to r<'-establish ourselves by the renewal of the loans which are maturing next year and t.he following year. I.do not !mow '':'hether the Premier has any Inforntatlon wh1eh he can give to the Houso in connection with them. 'l'here is no member of the Committee who would like to feel that the l-Ion. gentlemar; is going home and wi!! not succeed in his 111ission.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER : He will succeed.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I am glad to hear that interjection. It would be disastrous to {Jueensland if he did not succeed. ,~. ha_ve in mv hand a chppmg from the Daily Mail ;-, of last month, which ·shows t.he difference of opinion which <'xists With regard to the Queensland delegation.. As eotrly as 1918 the London "Times" po~nted ollt what would happen to the Prcmi~r If he went to the old country. Even 1~1 th!s n1orning' s " Courier " public attention _Is drawn to some n1ovement now on foot 1n the old country. It would be exceeding)y disastrous to Queensland if the Premier d1d nut succeed in connection with his contemplated visit. It cannot be contendec1 at present. whatever might have been cont~ndP.d on a previous occasion, that the PremiCr 1s being hampered. I do not agree w1th the statement which has been made to the effect that the delegation detrimentally affected the position with regard to a loan . on the Premier's last visit to England; but It c~nn~t be said that anyone besides t~e Pren.ner IS going from Queensland on thi.s occasiOn ~o take any part in connection With the pubhc affairs of Queensland.

As the subject is of such very great importance, the Premier ought to t.ak~ the House into his confidence before we ad]OU~n and let us know what the prospects are m cr:,nnection with this vital matter.

The TREASuRER: I cannot tell you more than I told you on the App.ropriat!on Bill. I think it is premature on this occasiOn to do so.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I do not want to do anything which would hamper the hon. g('ntleman in connection with the matter. The tendencv so far as we can see, is unfortunately in 'the direction of the tightening of money. If it should ha.ppen by any means that mo'ney is not available. and it is not. possible to renew the large amount of l.oan money falling due, it will be a most >enous n.atter for the State. vVe arc face to fac<' with another big factor. l!nfortunately. for some time the imports mto Austra.haQueensland probably is more favourably situated than the other States-have been greater than the exports, and that is resulting- in the tightening: of the money rnark!"t iu Australia. Even 1 f we are successful m renewing the loans, the rate of intere~t, as compared with t.he previous . rate, IS so high 1hat a heavwr burden will be. placed on the people for payment of . the m.terest bill. We cannot renew loans without m~urring fairly heavy charg.cs in that conn0ehon. The fact that our financial arrangements h~ve not been too satisfactory-! am not referrmg t{) n1oney coming in across the _coun~er, because that has been satisfactory-Is gomg to add to the difficulty. If by any means the success we desire is not achieved by the


Premier when he goes to the old country, and he has to come back as he did previously, it will be disastrous to Queensland. 1 hope ihat the hon. gentleman, consistently with what he considers wise at this juncture, will te,ke the House into his confidence before the adjournment, so that we may know the exact position.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): In connection with the Loan Fund account, one approaches with diffidence the subject of the maturing loans. We have to be careful to say nothing which may have a detrimental effect on the position of the State. During the whole of thi' session of Parliament it has been the aim of hon. members on this side not to say anything or do anything which could in any way be interpreted as being prejudicial to

the Premier's mission to London. [2 p.m.] Our desire has been to do no-

thing which would make the p.osition more difficult than it is. I think we all realise the difficulty, and we do not want to increase it by any remarks we may make, because we realise the importance to Queensland of a renewal of the loans falling due during 1924-25 at as low an interest as possible if the State is to progress. The matter vitally concerns every one of us in Queensland. and particularly vitally concerns this Parliament. I notice that the controversy has been renewed in London with regard to a matter which many of us hoped was a 1 hing of the past. It seems that it is not going to be allowed to remain a thing of the past. and on that account the difficulties confronting the Premier are increased. As I said a few moments ago, I have no desire to say anything to make his difficulties greater, but at ihe same time one cannot help feeling that the view which is taken in London indicates that what did in Queensland a short time ago has not been forgotten. A letter in the " London Times " of the 29th August last, written b:r Mr. Step hen \V alter, says-

" Queensland is already a debtor State, and yet she needs va~.t additional sums. ·where nro thcv to come from-where is the man who would lend his monev to a Government which he believed capable of breaking its contract and confiscating the money loaned?"

Those are very strong words.

The TREASURER : They are saying the same thing about the Canadian Government.

Mr. TA YLOR: I understand that. The letter proceeds-

" Are the people of Queensland going to allow the State to be handicapped by the continuance on its statute-book of legislation which has produced the effect of tightening against it the purse-strings of the world? That is a question for Queenslanders in general. They need no reminder that within the next two years their Government will be called upon to find some £24,000,000 for the repayment of State loam. Until 1920 they had experienced no difficulty in borrowing money in the cit.' of London. The failure of the attempt to raise a loan that year -after the passing of the notorious Act -provided an illuminating commentary upon the view which the city of London took of that repudiatory measure."

" That was the first warning. Have the State Government learnt nothing in the intervening years? If so, a

surprise may be in store for them when next they present themselves in London in the guise of borrowers."

That is what is operating in the minds of the people overseas-

" Apart from the disabilities under which the aggrieved parties still chafe, there are two aspects of the situation which especially merit attention. The first and most important is in regard to the general question of the principle involved. By the passing of the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920 the Queensland Government committed an act of bad faith. By the operation of that Act they legalised the breaking of contracts. In defence of their action they took their stand upon what they regarded to be the right of a sovereign State to amend or to repeal anv Act without reference to existing contracts. This doctrine is at once so novel and so revolutionary that the Brilish investor has every right toinsist upon enlightenment upon certain contingencies that might easily arise. If the present Queensland Government are firm in this attitude and confirm the implied view of obligation and eovereign right, what rnav not be their attitude towards contracts generally, ex1stmg or future? Why should any contract be observed if such observance can be shown to be irksome? What is to prevent th0 disclaimer of all their liabilities and obligations when th<' moment may seem propitious? Upon a satisfactory answer to these questions muFt depend a continuance of the confidence of the outside world and of the amenities which confidence a!olle can bring."

I do not want to labour the question. It is regrettable that the position has arisen, but we have to face it. The question of the valuu of Queensland's assets does not enter into the matter at all. It is just a question of the sanctity of contract. Just exactly what was pointed out during the passage of the Land Act Amendment Act in 1920 has occurred. It is a serious position, and we certain! v do not want to see a breakdown in the public works of the Government. We are committe.d to a policy of railwav extensions and other very important public works that are necessary and vital for the prosperity of the State, and any breakdown in loans would be very regrettable indeed. I do not anticipate that there will be any very great difficulty in the matter of the renewal of loans, but there may be .a clifficulty in regard to the rate of interest that we shall have to pa;c. We may have g-reater difficulty with regard to· loans in the future than wP have experienced in the past. I certainly contend that a number of resolutions that were carried at a certain ('rmvention held in the Central District earlier in the year at which the Premier was present are not going to help him. I do not think the fact that the Premier proclaimed himself a socialist and intends to bring into existence the policy formulated at that time is going 'to help him. I think the reverse is goino; to be the case. I trust t.hat in the futuro our legislation will be nf such a llftture that we cannot have it hurled at us that we have repudiated contract,_ As I said at Longreach, I think the terms and condition&

Mr. Taylor.]

il990 Supply. [ASSE.l\lBLY.] Supply.

of the pastoral tenure :,nd th-3 limit of the reapprnisements, which may be on a sliding scale during the curren::y of the +erm of the lease, should he embodied in the lease, and that there should be eome fiP.:Jlity f:pec-:f1ed in tho contract ~r the <tgre>,ment so that no Government m the futmc can break a contract or be accused of repudiation.

The TREASUHER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chi/luuoe): 1 do not thiuk that much can be gained by having a discussion on the Duestiou raised by the loader of the Oppos.ition. I cannot •ce how the object of the GovernlnL'nt in arranging for thl' conycrsiou of 10:\ll·· falling due can be assi,trd by any action that mav be taken in this Par: iament to propitiat< the pPople who arc stirring up this. controversy in Eng'land or to permit them to dictate the domestic policy of the Queensland GoY!'rnment. Personally I cannot soe that any good can ari~e frorn a dis-cu;sion Dn this question. A full di~rus~ion now is bound to reyive the old controversy ard lead to rcnimination and violr 'lt di~putation r0garding the righb or vrrongs of that legielation. The Government have contended all along that the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920, around which the ('Ontro\rr-rsv centrPd, a1:d which was intro-duced lir,t in this Chamber in 1915. does not mvolve repudiation. That is just as ,-iokntly denied by the re;m.•ocntativc; of the pn:--t-oralists on the other side, \Yho contend that that legislation wue repudiatory. That i~ a d.ificren('e of opinion. \:Ye cannot ~ecorcilc it: we ha Ye to acrPpt the situation u it i:-. Tlw ncrsons i11 London who are responsible for the agitation n1ay not be-and I am rather inclined to think thcv are notthe persons who were directly affected by that legislation. I think they are people ·who <HP butting into the argtuncnt and stirring ur- the controvPrsy so as to arouse fear in the minds of tltc pcoplr' who ha vo investment'· in QuePnsland. The rcYival of the ar;-itation on the mbjcct is likel:-' to bring ahout further ·wrangling and difficulties, which arc likely to create in the mind of the investors distrust invoh·ing the IH;;::~<;;ibility of the Go,-ernment not being able to ?.rraugt~ for the conversion of our loan.;g in 1924 and 1925. That is the horrible menace with hi.:h Queensland IS face-d at the present time.

I candidly confess that I regard the controypr~y that i~ g·oing on with the greatest .apprehen~iou. hecau:"e it is a ve>ry easy n1att0r to f'C'a re off invc -tors. InvostDrs 111ay know nothing whatever abot1t, and n1ay not lw interested in the slightest degree in. thl' l<'gislation that went through in 1920. Y d thP impression may be created in th'-'ir mincls that the State has done some vioJent \",Tong-, and has no rc~ard to its contractual or ~tatutory obligation'S, and regards lil'htly the interests of pcop:.,, who have im·cstmcnts in thie; State. It will be easily seen that, if such an impression 'hould be eroded, it is possible that people will desire to inv0st their monPv in some other security. That is the danger of the controycrs_v. 1 am sure that the rcpre«cntatives of the financial institutions, banking institutions. and Australian land and ~nortgage comnanie"", who are largely interested in invec,tments in Queensland, ba vc decided to let that controversy die to enable the Queensland Government to arrange the conversion loans within the next iwo years on as favourable terms as possible.

[.Mr. Taylor.

As business men they see that any difficulty that may be placed in the way of the conYersion is bound to react on all industries ;n Que0nsland. It stands to reason that any difficulty arising out of the controversy in London which makes it necessar7 (o pay heavier rates for the conversion will mean that extra burdens will have to be b )rne by the people. No earthly good can come to the people who think that they me suffering lw the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920 bv their making· it difficult for the GovernmcJ{t to convcrt the loans.

:VIr. Stor,lwn vValtcr, m his letter published in the London "Ti1ncs," appcar3 to assume that the Queensland Go,-crnment is going to London \Yith an application for new n1onev t~) carry on a public works policy. That is not the purpose. :'vly mission next year will be onlY in tho interests of the lo,;n conversion,. ·The money was raif;cd in London n1any yoars ago. In fact, some of the moncv that woe raised fortv yc'ars ago is falling due next year. ThcrC has been no default-no desire or suggestion of default-in regard to our obligations under these loans. Queensland Governments for generations past ha vc met all their intcreo,t obligations with meticulous promptitude on the due date. The principal moneys have always been repaid on the due date. No one can justifiably say that the Queensland GoYernn1ent has bPen careless in n1ceting all its obligations. There has be<'n no suggestion of default, delay. or of incmwenienc0 caused to the people who have inv0sted in Qn0ensland securities. I see possibilities of tremendous difficulty to the State if that old is~uc is raised again ·when no good can come of it. ·

\Vithin the three years that have elapsed since 1920, when the unfortunate episode occurred, the Queensland GoYernment has cnrried on reasonablv. has met all its obligations and carried on as a rational, rPasonable, and dcn1ocrntic Govern1nent is expected to curry on. IV e have never admitted the right of financiers in London, whether a group of financiers or individual inycstors. to control our legislation. Such a policy "-ould be subvcrsi ve of the interests of the State. \Ye must determine our own domestic policy without pandering to any intcn·ots in London. The representatives of the finnncial companies hero. of the BritishAustralian companies which have inveotments in Queensland, banking con1panie5', loan and n1ortgage con1panic·"', ]and con1panies, pastoralist rnrnpanies. ".lnd all surh companie", reco•;nis:' that fact. In fac' I have tangible OYidence that they concur with me that every assistance should now be given to the Govcrnrncnt to arrange the best terms for the conversion-that all should co-operate in order to get the best possible terms. An increase of 1 per cent. in the interest on the loans that are falling due in the next few ye!l:rs would mean a verY heavy burden upon the State of QLJeensland, and thoro is no reason "h:-' we should be expected to carry that additional burden.

\Vithout de•,iring to reopen the controversy, I "ould like to put forward this aspect of the question. The hon. member for \Vindsor suggested that it might be advisable to in"ert in the instruments of lease the conditions that would ('nsure to lessees the contract which th0y accepted from the Crown. Well

, and good. I am entirely with the hon. member that, whatever conditions the lessee is

Supply. [26 OCTOBER.) Supply. 1991

'fmtitJed to ought to be stated in the lease, making it quite clear what are the obliga· tions as between the lessee and the Crown But in the case of the pastoral leases which were subject to the amending Act of 1920, the condition that has been harped about so much in this controversy wa' not stated in the lease. It was a concession stated in an Act of Parliament. and that Act of Parliament was amended.' Mr. Stephen vValter said that it was a novel idea for a Government to amend an Act of Parliament under which someone gets a benefit, and which he might regard as a contractual or statutorv obligation. In my opinion his interpretation i;; wrong. If we admitted such an interpre· iation, Parliament would have to be charv about having any amending legislation at all on the as"'umption, or expectation, or fear, as the case may be, that under the Act which it was sought to amend someone was getting a benefit, and that to amend or repeal that Act would cause someone to snffer an injury, and therefore the State would be committing something in the nature ,of an act of bad faith. I cannot hold with that doctrine. It is true that, when any legislation is repealed or amended, a num· her of individuals may suffer an injury, but that is the common result of legislation. Legislation is brought in for the common good. I do not say on behalf of the Govern. ment that it should r':ckles,ly pass legislation injuring the rights of citizens or of those who have interests in the State as ,investors. The Government must take into account the rights and interests of its citizens .and investors. But a Government should not depart from its duty merely because someone might say that the legislation was repudiatory, confiscatory, or something in the nature of a breach of contract. That doctrine would limit the power of Parliament, and take away to a considerable degree the sovereignty of the State.

This contra\ ers:,~ assurne:.. great significanre because the people who are connected with it have great influence. There have been innumerabh Acts of Parliament passed during the last bnenty years b.:· the Queensland Parliament and bv other Parliaments of the British Empire -\vhich haYo to a greater <:legrec interfered with domc,tic rights than {]id the Land Act Amendmer,t Act of 1320.

'Tht•rc may haye b0on at the time some ·objc:tion or sonw protest raised or petition lodged, but there has b0cn no t,clcral outcry in regard to those Acts of Parliament, he-calbO in those (';lses the individuals "\·:ho suff€'rrd w0r0 not as influential .as iho indi~ viduals who claim thev have suffen·d in connedion with the 1920 "Land Act Amendment AcL This tronble would never have been heard of if it had not affected so influential a cl as; as the Queensland pastoralists and investment companies. It is because they are so influential and have the car of the Press in London that this agitation is revived 'from time to time. That is my honest belief. I can remember quite a number of Acts of Parliament which, considered from the point Df view of certain individuals, have been <;onfiscatory-which indeed have been much more conflscatorv than the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920. Take the Rights in Water and Water Conservation and U~tilie,ation Act Df 1910, which expropriated all the rights of nrivate ovi,rners in running streums the banks of the streams, and so on. That Act might be said to repudiate certain rights,

but it was justified. Although it was passe? by the Kidston Government. I say that It was justifi(,d in the common interest. Still it was confiscatory. There was a protest eaised at the time, but the controversy was not continued year in and year out. Then the Mining on Private Land Act of 1909 interfered with certain rights of private owners of land. Certain of those rights were reo"trictcd and the Crown got new rights. The Crown took the right to prospPct and to mine on those private lands. 1'o that cxh'nt the Act was confiscatory, but no great protest was nised in that connection" In 1912 the Denham Government passed the Prickly Pear Destruction Act, which impmed new conditions on the pastoralists. although these conditions were not mentioned in the instrum0nt of lease. It imposed on pastoralists a condition to undertake certn in measures to secure the eradication of prickly-pear.

Mr. KELSO: For the public good"

The TREASL:RER: For the public good.

Mr. CoRSER: For which they got arr exten-sion of lease.

The TREASL:RER: They got no exten· si on of lease ,vhatever and no con1pcnsa tion. I "as in Parliament at the time the Act was passed, and we debated the particular proYision which i1nposed new conditjons upon the lt''see. and failure to carrY out thc'e conditions I1n certain circumst~anccs involved forfeiture of the lease. It was a new condition impc,ed on the lessee for the public good. If that is a justification for this class of legislation. that is not the contention of I\lr. Stephen Walter. He does nut say that you can onlv do this for the public good. He savs von n{ust not do it at all. If public go-od ·is a justification, is it not for the public good that the pastoralists should pay as much for their Crown lands as the grazing farmers pay for the same class of land in the same di ,trict and used for the same purpose'? Is that not for the public good?

Mr. T.HLOR: The grazing farmers knew exactly what they had to ~pay when they took the land up.

The 'l'REASL;RER: If the doctrine of " for the public good" is admitted, then it is only a question as to how far it can be extended. rrhc avf'ragc rental paid by pastoral lessees before the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920 was passed wa' 16s. Sd. per square mile. while the rents of grazing farms' averaged 69s. per square mile. Because of that disparit:: the Land Court could not fix for grazing farms what they considered a fair rPntal because the di,parity was so great" That hampered settlement and to some extent interfered with the public revenue" I do not wish to force this opinion ·down the throats of those who do not sec eye to eye with me on this question. I am just giving my own opinion, and I say you can quote jnnumerable .instances in Queensland and in almost every British Dominion of Acts of Parliament having been passed that interfered with vested interests as rnnch as, and in 1nany cases to a greater deg~ree than, the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920 did. Yet there has been no constant clamour about it. \'Vhen I was in London a certain action taken by the City of London authorities was brought under my notice which was a flagrant interference with vested interests, or it could be so described. Earlv in the nineteenth century certain city C'ompanies had been

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]


given a concession regarding their holdings along the Thames River

The concession amounted to this: If thev effected certain reclamations and improv~ments to their properties-which thev did effect, and which afterwards became l~nown as the Thames Embankment-they were to be free from certain ra.ting a"essments. That lasted for a century, until the City of London authorities considered that these companies ought to be assessed for a sewerage xate or for a service rendered, and they imposed that rate. The companies objected, and it led to legislation which was finally decided by the House of Lords itself-the highest legal tribunal-which decided that the companies under the ancient concession or franchise that they had been granted were free from that assessment. The City of London authorities then approached the Government. A Bill had been introduced in the House of Lords and pa~sed through that House, and was being ·debated in the House of Commons when this controversy regarding the Land Act Amendment Act of 1920 was being carried on. I said to the representatives of the companies who waited on me, " Could you get a more flagrant act of repudiation than that? " There was a statutory exemption from certain obligations, rights, and assessments; the City of London authorities attempted to revoke it, and the highest authoritv in the land upheld the companies' right. That law has since been pas,ed. and it upholds the right of the City of London authorities to impose the as~E'ssment. So you can cite manv Acts of Parliament which have been passed in the public interest which limit Dr take away vested rights in propertv in the particular country in which the legislation 'vas pas<;led.

I come to more recent cases. The Government of Western Australia a few years ago mtroduced a proposal to build a railwav-I forget the points at which it started ·and finished-at any rate, it was in a northerly direction, and for a great distance ran pai:allel to the Midland Company's Railway, whwh belonged to an English company. The Midland Railway Company immediately protested that their franchise protected them from any competition by the State, and thev seriously protested against the Governmen-t going on with that parallel railway. They were so insistent in their protest that thev prevented the Premier Df Western Australia at that time-I think it was Sir Newton Moore-from making certain negotiations in London, and their protest was upheld. Since then the Western Australian Government have built that railway parallel to the Midland Compa~y's railway. Every year brings from th~ chairman of the company a reference to this allegedlv flagrant action of the \V estern Australian Government in interfering with their right to the whole of the rates and freights paid bv the merchants of the citv of Perth. · ·

Mr TAYLOR: The Western Australian Government should ·have purchased that railway.

The TREASURER : I do not pretend to be able to justify, explain, or in any way take up the defence of the action of the Wec.tc-rn Australian Government but I am pointing out that these are ca~es of what other Gov·ernments have done. "With the full recognition of the rights of parties which are 'upposed to be affected they have carried their schemes through. Queensland did it in

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

1920, and we are held up to a perpetual attack and vindictive opposition on the part of certain people in London.

More xecently still the Canadian Government clashed with the city authorities in London. The case arose over what is known as the Grand Trunk Railway. During the war the Canadian Government took over the control of the Grand Trunk Railway. They gradually extended the system, and purchased other private railways, and they have now a very iarge State railway system. The question of compensation arose· during the war and it was postponed until after the war, when a settlE'ment was arrived at. The Act provided that a board of assessors. or some tribunal of that sort, should determine the compensation which would be payable to the proprietary interests with regard to the railways that were taken over. That tribunal subsequently determined the matter, and as the result of the determination C'ertain classes of shareha !den, got nothing for their shares. The· tribunal decided that those shares had no value whatever; the amount involved represented millions of pounds. The shar·es were mainly held in England. It was the decision of a tribunal which had no personal interest to serve, no axe to grind, and presumably was not personally vindictive against any of the interests aff·ected. That procedure was taken under the statut<JS of Canada. Because the Government of C'e,nada accepted that decision they are now being threatened by certain interests in London with all kinds of penalties. if they attempt to go to London to raise money. I suppose Governments throughout the British Empire now and again will be faced with that situation. We in Queensland have had experience of it since 1920. In my opinion the difficulty mainly arises through wrongly directed energy on the part of people who will insist on thrashing out in Lol'don issues that ought to be determined in Queensland and in this House. The people

of Queensland arc reasonably [2.30 p.m.] minded. They do not desire to

se" anyone robbed or any injustice or injury done to anyone, and a Government who treated harshly or unfairly or unjustly or in a ,-illainous manner interests which are· rPpresented in Queensland would not liv' long. The people of the State are inherently j<Jst in mind, and that is why I say we can cafelv leav·e all these questions to the final al·bitrament of the people of our own State.

I do not know that it would be a wise thing to have a discussion on this unestion, because, as I say, there are wide differences of opinio10. I am aware of the opinions held by hon. members who sit opposite, but I cannot see how a discussion in connection with the falling du·e of moneys next year could be of benefit. Their renewal is of serious import to Queensland, and the consrequE'nces of failure might mean commercial depression, or consequences \vhich are_. at any rate, nDt very pleasant to contemplate in their effect on the whole community. Of course if the attitude were taken in London that it is impossible to give us that money, most serious conscquenceH mig-ht ensue, because it cannot be expected that Queensland will accept conversion upon any terms.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

The TREASURER: As a State we are entitled to as much consideration as anv other State in Australia. The State has


resources capable of enabling it to meet all its obligations, and I am sure that, if the investors of the money themselves were allowed to decide by their own judgment, or through the medium of their own financial adYisers-trustces, solicitors, broker3, and others who advise them-we would get the money. I am justified in making that statement, by the fact that, if you examine the Stock Exchange lists published in London, you will find that Queensland stock ranks pari passu with the stock of other States. The Queensland " Sixes" are quoted to-day on the London market at £103a, which is on a par with the stocks of similar denomination of the other States of the Commonwealth. That sho"s that the holders of Queensland stocks are not anxious to get rid of them. But they could easily get the impression that ever:; thing is not right and that the security is not as they would like it to be, that it is not gilt-edged, that it is a dangerous thing to hold, and so want to get out; and it is that sentiment which may make a tremendous difficulty in regard to the conversion'. The stock which wo have falling due at the end of June n('U year -about £12,000,000-is held largely by people who in many cases have held it for many years. The Bank of England Bets as keeper of the Inscribed Stock Registers, and pays the interc't regularly.

Mr. KELSO: It is mostiv held by trust e~tates. ·

The TREAS"CRER: 1\Iostly bv tl'ust estates, the controllers or managers of which are desirous of holding that cla's of security which gives safety for the principal involved. Some of the holders of that stock have ha-d it for forty years. There are very few transactions in it, and it is very rarely quoted on tho exchange, or sold or tramfcrred. That shows that the holders are content with that class of stock. But if they ever got the idea that things "erp not right in Queensland, nahnally they would get rid of the investment If they could, and that is the difficulty which may arise from this controversy. Nobody regrets more than I do the stirring up of the controversy in London, and I do hope that it is more or less an academic discussion by people who think that things were wrong in 1920. I hone that it is not inspired by a desire to make' a real hardship for Queensland when we <>ome to undertake conversion. If it is onlv an academic discussion, no great harm will be done. Xo doubt I shall meet in London people who desire to discuss matters affecting Quecn>,land, and I shall do it as temperately and tactfully as anybody who represents Queensland possibly could, but I want to say in passing that it is impossible for us to make concessions to people who are threatening to hold us up, if they are attempting to hold us up merely that they may be able to dictate the policy of a Government which is ruling in a State possessing sovereign powers. GOVERN~fENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. G. P. BAR='i"ES (lVa,.wick): I do not

want to say one word which would h>we the effect of doing anything by which the depression through which we are passing might be carried to an extreme, and I do not rise for that purpose at all. I want to say a few words in re>r.;ard to matters of railway construction. It must be apparent to everyone that matters of that kind are shaping themsehes in ,,uch a way that they are of very

great importance, not only to Australia, but to Queensland in particular. It is to railways which affect Queensland in one important respect that I wish to direct attention, because on the one hand they might turn out to some extent to our detriment, whilst on the other hand they might be turned to the wonderful advantage of the State. I think it is all important, when these Estimates are going through, that we should know the minds of the railways authorities about the matters to which I am going to refer.

Possibly the Premier himself is informed on the matter, and I notice that the acting Prime Ministe1· of the Commonwealth made a statement in respect to it only a week or two ago. I can quite imagine that the proposed North-South railway ig receiving some attention from the Government, and the influence of the Premier in the matter may turn the scale. In this respect I am aware that a great opportunity is offering to Queensland became, if I rightly understand the position, the Commonwealth Government will come to the reecue in the matter of finance. I understand that it will be a joint matter, and f,hat a very big contribution will come from them. Queensland has alPady approved of a railway from Camooweal to Tobermory, and the proposal has been made that, in addition to carrying it to Tobermory, it should go on to Bourke, in New South Wales. I draw particular attention to this fact on account of the big move whicl1 is being made by the people ~f New South Wales. I dare say the Premier ha.s seen a pamphlet written by the Hon. G. R. W. McDonald, M.L.C., of New South Wales, on "The Camooweal-Bourke Railway Project "-a very intere-o;;ting document.

The early remarks in the book indicate the feeling regarding this matter. The book states-

" The most important railway line requiring to be built to-day in Australia in the interests of the men on the land in Queensland, New South Wales, an-d Victoria, and in the interests of the mea 1-consuming public, is one to run from Camoowcal, on the border of the Northern Territory, to Bourke, in the north-we't of New South Wales.

" Without this line it is impossible to stabilise meat prices throughout the Commonwealth, by reason of the fact that both New South Wales and Victoria have now ceased to be beef-producing countries in the ordinary sense of the term, and the public of these two States have perforce to look to Queensland for an adequate supply of beef."

That is the propaganda that is going out, and one rejoices at it. I suppose that nothing we can conceive of would do more good in the bui].ding of thc line, especially right out in the far-back blocks of the country, Jhan the building of a railway s11ch as this. At the same time wo must be concerned with the route that the railway is going to take, and what we shall do in order to meet the traffic that might follow the wonderfully big opening up of the country and the verv big expend.iture. The " Brisbane Courier" of the 16th instant Teports-

" To emphasise the importance of extending the railway from Bourke to Barringun on this side, and from Cunnamulla to Barringun on the other, a deputation from the Producers' Associations

JJIJ.r. G. P. Barnes.]


of :t\ew South Wales will wait upon the Premier, Sir George Fuller. It is under· stood that tho graziers in Southern l,.)ueensland are also moving, and will ask Mr. Theodore to build a line from Cunnamulla down to Barringun. . . . It is the hope of representative graziers 'hat ultimately there will be rail connec· tion from Bourke right out through Cen· tral Queensland and on to the Northern Territory. . . . Now that the graziers in Queensland are so keen upon extending the line from Cunnamulla to the border, the belief is that the two Governments could agree to start the building ,imultaneously. Unqueotionably this proposed line from Bourke through Queensland would be of immense value to the pastoral industry of New South Wales and Queensland, and it would also greatly benefit Yictoria and the Nort_hern 'I crntory. Queensland and the Terntory are the natural breeding-grounds for our cattle, ju.ot as New South Wales and Victoria are the natural fattening grounds."

I understand that the Premier has givon expression to 11 thought in sympathy, and he must be in sympathy with a proposal such as this; but, if I remember reading rightly, he preferred that the lino should be constructed from Cunnamulla tD Hungerford, which is opposite Barringun, in New South \Vales. I think the oriP'inal idea of the cDuntry was that '' ith this transcontinental railway we should make for W ooroorooka, which is a g-reat doal nearer our own border railway than the other point. The further you got a way from the border railway the less are Queensland's chances of retaining Dr preserving any of that through traffic. Railways may be built, but if theY are built a greater distance west than the distance, say, bet\veon Hungerford and Brisbane, the distance will be so groat. and Sydney being a lessor diste.Lce. the opportunity of any of that trade coming to Queensland will be lost. Hon. members will therefore see the groat significance of this lino. I stress it for the verY big consider,ttion of the Premier. It is well to keep this lino towards Thargomindah. ]:yen supposing the line is going to come by \Vooroorooka. the matter is of such deep and great concern i1S to concern all Queensland residonto. Unless we do our part in another direction. as was pointed out by the late J\fr. Thallon and Mr. Stanley years ago, by pushing out our bordPr railwa:v, we are going to lose the opportunity of ea rrying on that trade. I dare sav the Premier will call to mind some of the references that were made long ago in connection with the matter. I ha vo looked up the remarks that W<'ro made in connection with the- railway extension tD Dirranbandi. In " Hansard'" for 1914, at page 2356. l\Ir. Paget, who "as then Secretary for Railv ays, said-

" \Vhen I wfts at Dirranbandi opening the lino, I drove out a mile or two to look at the crossing over the Balomw. \Vhen floods come down, the Balonne and Culgoa rivN·s are not crossable for quite a number of months, and that was so for several months at the beginning of this year. \Ve arc losing th0 traffi•c from the countty west of the Balonne and Culgoa rivers for the reason that the stations beyond the rivers cannot make Din·anbancE their railway station because of the difficulty of getting acmss those rivers in a reasonably wet season. I very

[Mr. G. P. Barnes.

seriously considered whether it would not be advisable for tho Railway Department to build bridg0s over both rivers prior to the House approYing of the construction of the section further west, but I was unable to do so owing to the fact that we had no power to expend money in that direction beyond the rail head."

He further •·.aid-" \Ve have made this section 51 mik'

60 chams-\Yhich is rather longer 1 han we general!:.· build-for the reason that it t,;kes the railway to a point just 1 mile south-west of \Yoolerina Station, on the main stock route between Bollon and the south0rn border the State; so that, when u·c have the section cDmpletod, we shall be right on the stock ronto. and people will haYe no trouble in bringing their stock to the terminus and Phippi'ng them to '\ hPrever thev desire over the Queensland rai I ;,yays.'' ~

After reading the Commissioner's recommendation, Mr. l'aget further said-

" The terminus of the south-\\·cstern line at Dirranbandi is situated on the !'astern bank of the Balonne River. and as ihPrc is no bridge oyer this river or over the Culgoa Rin>r 5 miles to the west thc•reof. and both these riYers are for months at a time uncrossable for YPhiclcs, the traffic now \von to the railwav com0s onlv from the north and south of 'the line; a·ll traffic from west of this tcrminm passes over the Queensland border into J\'ow South \Yaks. This <'xtonsion \vill secure to Queensland rail\Ya.vs and port~ their lcgitirnate trade, and direct into its natural channel the soutb-we::<tcrn traffic.''

The railway from Dirranbandi to a position 50 odd miles west was passed by this House for construction. New South \Vales has such a great pull that there is a possibility of tho railway being built. If we are to retain the f!TCat inland trade which belongs to th,

we shall have to hurrv forward our own railway scheme and construct those railways that hayo already been passed. Some years ago Mr. Thallon referred to the distance and the Yaluo of this railway to Quocnsl11nd in these words-

" I prefer the \Yarwick route because the distance from the seaboard to the rich district south of St. George and Cunnamulll1. is shorter than via Charleville or Youlba. The distance via Charlevil!e to Cunnamul!a will be 618 miles, but, as it will be necessary to go south of Cunnamulla to make sure of the trade, we may put it down at 650 miles. The distance via 'Warwick to the \Van·ego would be 568 mile·<, and, if the Ipswich-Warwick line wore constructed, only 500 miles. . . . I am strongly of opinion, there, for<', that our additional railway should run east and west-not north and sDuth -and so secure the trade to Brisbane for ever and ever. . . . The residents of the St. George and Cunnamulla districts would doubtless be as well sorYed by an extension of the ]\' cw South \Vales lines from Narrabri and Bourke, and they would probably cost less. Possibly that will be done if the long-talked-of federation comes about. but the port of Brisbane would, in that case, lose the trade for ever, and it is not to be thought of by Queenslanders."

Supply. [26 OCTOBER.] Suppl?!· 1995

:Mr. Lothem, in this connection, also said-" With the advent of federation, and

the consequent abolition of differential rates. and the construction of a direct line to Warwick. which is certain to be built sooner or later, it would undoubtedly open out the largest area of country in )i"ew South \Vales and Queensland."

I make no apology for making reference to that man with a great vision many years :>go. Ho followed up that statement by mdica tmg that the construction of the western border line was vital to the interests of Brisbane aud the State as a, whole. I ~·o.se to emphasis?' the wisdom of proceeding without delay with the construction of that railway in order to secure the trad•c which rightly belongs to Queensland. If that trade IS once lost to Quoensland-and we know that New· South Wales is making every effort to secure It-we shall lose in addition that trade on which we have already spent so much money in carrying the railwav towards Urandangio. If the transcontinental railwa} or the Camooweal to Bourko section is constructed that trade will be lost unless we are out there with our railway to meet it. It is impossible to conceive the great value ·of that trade.

The TREASURER : . If the cross section is b':ilt. naturally the South-western railway will be connected up with it.

Mr .. G. P. BARNES: The danger is in .allmvmg that railway to be constructed with<mt having the cross sections extended to meet it. VV_e can build those cross sections in many ·directions, even to Cloncurry "\Vindorah 131ackall, and Charleville. A good deal of the trade from those c(mtres would go either to Townsville. Ro~khampton, or Brisbane, but the cro'" seetwns arc essential. The -chief point is that the border line should be built to preserve the border trade. That border line could go wuth from Tobermorv. The distauce fro.m Tobcrmorv to Svdnev is. 658 miles .and to. Brisbane 509. Thargon;mdah also enters mto the question, but the distance from Thargornindah to Sydney is 730 miles and to Bnsbane 720 miles. It :-:ill at once be seen from these figures that, Jf _we are to hold our own from the mileage pomt of vww, wo shall have to utilise the bo~der lino, a:r:d th_c Vi~ Recta railway to Bn;bane. This will give to Brisbane a mileap:e advantage of 640 miles as against "730. We only need to look at the map of ~ucensland to soo how deeply we are Interested. The " Daily Mail " of the 18th October last drew attention to this matter. In an article it stated-

" Special railway rates have been levied for that purpose."

That is the part of the trade of New South Wales.

"It was with the object of checkmatinothis drift of trade that the souther;;_ border railway was carried so far west in Queensland."

"This State has ceased doing that. Nothing has been done for eight or nine years to capture that trade that we went for. We secured the great bulk of this trade and it has been .a tremendous advantage' to us. The article goes on to say-

" But it is significa.nt to note the eagerness of Kew South \Vales to connect with the Queensland system at a point from which traffic will be drawn to

Sydney and to observe the reluctance of the came State to join up with Southern Queensland, because traffic thereby may be attracted to Brisbane."

The concern of this State is to build railways to secure trade on it, own account. vYe are Australians .certainly; but, when it comes to the expenditure of money, then we are con< ''rned as to the development of our

own trade. Things .are moving [3 p.m.] in this direction. I wish to point

. out incidentally tho wisdom of the R_ailway Department giving its attention to this subject. A connection is proposed from C'asino, New South \Vales, to Acacia Creek, 3 miles from Killarnoy. The immense advantage of the construction of the border lino will at once be seen. If the railway that is now proposed from C'asino to Acacia Creek is built, it will strike at the trade that now comes to Brisbane. The construction of the border lino will be of immense ad vantage to Queensland in time of drought in addition to fostering business of great interest to this State. Until the country realises its dut:; and carries out that policy, not only along the border .and in Central Queensland, but carries out the railway which was passed by this House and looked upon somewhat doubtfully by many-I refer to the Via Recta-we shall have difficulty in securing the trade which is so valuable to Queensland.

::\Ir. ::\IOOHE (A.ubigny): It did not require the S]W<dl of the Treasurer this afternoon to impre_:;s upon the How3e the gravity of the position of the State of Queensland at the present time. I do not feel inclined to say absolutel:v nothing on a quC'stion of such vital irnportance to the State. I quite understand that if the Trrasurci', \Yhcn he goes honH", is able to pcJint out to the people in control of fi_nancin 1 tlwttf'L~ that the publi-c heneJit was ~Suffiricnt!y in jeopardy to warrant his .action no 1110re w<mld be heard of the unfortunate ha ppcnings.

::'IIr. HARTLEY: \Vhy cay "unfortunate"'?

l\Ir. I\lOORE : I want to point out to the Treasurer that tho Government weGt into thP action ,,·ith tl~t_•ir eyes O]lClL The Oppo~itim1~nnd I "\Yas an1ongst the111~ opposed it all they could. The;- did nil that they coul-d to point out what might be the i.'esult, and it 1\ :_1 ':l only afte:r several years that the Govcrnn1cnt succeeded in i)a.;;~ing the lr b'islation. TlH re is no occaoion to rdcr to the manner in which it was dorw. I clo not think that I should be .ck·ing n1:-- duty if I tondonod no\r "\vhat \VO

fought against previously. \V c alv, .-:tys believed that it v.as 'nong, and I certainly think we aro perfectly justifted in maintaining that a wrong "\vas done. I do not want to ban1l1cr the GovPrnmcnt in any way. No doubt the TrPasur0!" pnt up a strong case on his own behalf, and he does not 'nmt the Opposition to lwlp him in that wav. .'u to what other States have done, to ~11y mind that is entirely lH si do the point. In manv of the C-''es that the Treasurer quoted the conditions were not analagous. "\Ve must recognise that the periods of the lcaoes in which the alterations were made were definite'. It is of no use the Tnasurer talking :1.bout cases of perpetuity on the other side of the world in the manner he dicl.. I realise that the position is most difficult; but it is of no good blinkillg the fact now and issuing an ad misericordiam

1lc1T. MooTe.]


appeal. The Government knew when they went int~ the matter what the result wQuld be. Because they thought the people of England would forget after .a certain period and whether the people concerned are influential or uninfluential, has nothing to do with it. It is only a matter of whether the actio11 was right or wrong. In my opinion it was wrong, and I do not feel inclinod to condone the Government.

Mr. HARTLEY: It was right.

Mr. MOORE: That is a matter of opinion. We considered it wrong at the time, .and we still consider it wrong. I hope that the Treasurer will be able to give sufficient explanation, and that he will be able to convince the people on the other side of the world who have the conversion of our loans in their hands that he was justified.

Mr. KELSO (-Vundah): The information which the Treaeurer gave us this afternoon was very interesting, because the hon. gentleman revealed his mind on a particular matter and Hdmitted that h0 re:ohscd the great difficulty with which he is faced in his mission tu London. While the Treasurer suggreterl that we should not have a fulldress debat0 on the question-with which 1 agree-I think that he went into tho matter a little more fully than was necessary in defending the Government for their act of so-called repudiation. I do not intend to discuss it; but I should like to remind the hon. gentleman that there is a law of eminent domain-that is ".for the public good." I do not agree with the Treasurer so far as tho legislation in question is concm·nc:<l. Tho leader of the Country partv has JUSt Bt..tted that in one case quoted b,· the Treasurer in regard to the city of London something had been going on practically in perpetuity. \V c know very well that the English law does not rccogni'e perpetuity in m.any matters.

The TREASURER: The English luw did recognise the perpetuity in thi.-, instance. It wa"· only overruled by an Act of Parliament.

. Mr. KELSO: That is quite so. Possibly It was not known to have been changed for a matter of centurie< before that.. Prohably Parh.arrwnt was right in interferinrr in a matter like that if they went. ir~to the merits oi the case; hut the leases concerned in an Act of Parliament had a defmite short. time to run and we on this side considere-d that the' conditions of the leases ought not to have been altered.

If we on this side of the Chamber can :Jo ,anything to assist the Treasurer in renev\mg the loans, that assistance will certainly be given. I believe that he has tho ability to convince certain sections that an act of repudiation was not committed. The leader of the Opposition has intimated that durmg the seosion the Opposition have purposely refrained from criticism on financial matters in order that the Tr0asurer would not be hampE)red in getting the loans renewed. We rcahse that even an extra ~ per cent. interest wo~ld considerably penahse the whole commumty. We on this !side feel that the Trea -Clrer shoul,d be encouraged in his efforts to get satisfactory terms fol' the renewals. The remarks made by the hon. gentleman in regard to prosperous companies and businesses in London which are adverse to the renewal of

rMr. Moore.

the loans except at a certain increased rate of interest is a complete vindication of our claim that the celebrated delegation h&d r:othing to do with the hon. gentleman's previous financial mission. It is a fact that there is nothing more sensitive in this wor.ld -not even a young girl~-than the money market. The slight~st hint that is bandied ahout to depress the credit of the State is taken advantage of by those who lend money, in order that they may get a little· extra advantage to which they are not entitled. \Ve certainly do not want to do· anything to hamper the Treasurer in hisefforts to renew these loans. We sincerely hope he will be able to renew the loans, and we sincerely hope he will renew them at a similar rate of interest to the rates. which have been charged en loans floated recently by other States of the Commonwealth.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett): I am also hopeful' that the Treasurer will be able to renew these· loans; but, at the same time, I rertuinly claim, as a member of the Opposition. that we are in no wa-y responsible for any of the actions that led up to the doubt in the minds of the Treasurer and his friends as to whether the hon. gentleman is going to ((d the loans renewed. We are not going to hold ourselves responsible for the aCtions of the GoYernment during the last eight years. \Yhen Bills were going through this House that were likely to lead to ill-feeling on the other ;;ido of the world we opposed them. It is for the Government to govern, and it is not for us to get them out of the hole they are in. I sincerely hope that in l\w inter0sts of tho State a- good bargain wiJl be made, but at the same time I am not going to say that we are in any way rc,ponsible, and I cannot see that there are any political reasons why we should not say what we want to say in this regard.

Mr. HARTLEY: \Vhat about t.he delegation?·

11r. CORSER: We know nothing of any delegation, and the old parrot cry about the delegation is known probably more to ban. 1 tembcrs opposite than it is to an,~ one on this side. The actions-probably not oi the· l'rcmier, but of quite a number of members si i ting behind him-ha vc been responsible for the whole statf' of affa.irs. Only a couple of years ago a boast was made that they could get their lortn money in America, but now they find their hands are tied it is not for us to make any apology for them.

I am hopeful that the money wili be forthcoming-, because we know mane:;· is. essential, and I am supporting this vote because we knovv a large amount is required for urgent works under construction at the present time. In our railway progra,mme alone a large amount of this money is rcouired. Of this moneY which wo arc aslred to vote now £152,00.0 will be spent iu th• South. and the whole of that £152,000 is being appropriated for railway construction in th" Durnctt district, An amount of £380,000 is bein_g appropriated for railway<; in the Central disteict, and of that amount £210.000 is to be spent in the Burnctt. In th ·· N' orth £187,00G is to be spent. on loan works. The tota.l amount appropriated for· the whole State for new railwa'' lines is £719.000. and of that amount £362,000 is being spent in the Bm·nett and £357,00[ i& being spent in other portions of Queensland. \Ve are in the ha;,py position of havin~ more than half the loan money spent m the

Ways and Means. [26 OCTOBER.] Dental, Opticians, Etc., Bill. 1997

Burnett during this year, and that is one reason for my a.nxiety to see that all loan moneys that are necessary are forthcoming. I am supporting the vote because I know the money in this instance is being opent on something that is urgently needed and on Eomcthing that will be a big factor in the -development of the State.

Resolution agreed to. Resolutions 128 to 131, both inclusive,

oagreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS. RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE.

(Mr. Walhr, Coo1·oora, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe): I beg to move-

" (a) That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the yoar 1923-1924, a further sum not exceeding £5.766,059 be granted. out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Queensland, ·exclusive of the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account.

" (b) That towards making good the :Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1923-1924, a further sum not exceeding £2,986.416 be granted from the 'l'rust and Special Funds.

" (c) That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1923-1924, a further sum not exceeding £3,236,906 be gra.nted from the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account.

" (d) That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1922-1923, a supplementary sum not exceeding £173,619 Os. 1d. be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Queensland, exclusive -of the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account.

" (e) That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1922-1923, a su]lplementary sum not exceeding £304,648 3s. 8d. be granted from the Trust and Special Funds.

" (/) That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1922-1923, a su]oplementary sum no,t exceeding £216.062 Is. 4d. be granted from the mGneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account.

" (g) That towards makin:j' good the Supply granted to His Majesty on account for the service of the vear 1924-1925, a sum not exceeding £1.200.GOO be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Queensland, exclusive of the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account

" (h) That towards making good the :Supply granted to His Majesty on account for the service of the vear 1924-1925, a sum not exceeding £'700.000 be granted from the Trust and Special Funds.

" (i) That towards makin,o; good the Supply granted to His Majesty on 'lccount for the servicn of the vca t• 1924-1925, a sum not exce&ding £600.000 be granted from the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account.''

Question put and passed. The House resumed.

The 'TEl)fPORARY CHAIRMAN reported the resolutions.

The res'umption of the Committee was made m, }lrder of the Day for Tuesday next.

RECEPTtON AND ADOPTION OF RESOLU1'IONS. On the ihotion of the TREASURER (Hon.

E. G. 'Iheodore~ Chillagoe), the resolution.s were received and agreed to.

APPROPRIATION BILL, No. 2. FIRST _,ND SECOND READINGS.

A Bill, founded on the resolutions reported from the Committee of Wava and Means, was introduced, and read a first and second time.

COMMITTEE. (Mr. J?. A. Cooper, Bremer, in the chair·.) Clause 1-" Appropriation"-

Mr. MOORE (A.ubigny): I would like to ask the Premier a question which I omi!ted to ask this morning when the resolutwns were going through. We want to find out Vihere the contribution from the Government to the Unemployment Insurance Fund !s proYideJ for. We asked a questiOn about It on 20th Sentember last. ·when the Works Estimates '~ere going through, the Minister said that we should find it in +he appropriation in connection with the Supplementary Estimates, but there was nothing about it there. Up to 30th June last, the Government had paid into the fund £15,000, and the employers and employees £33.701 3s. Sd. each.

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoc): That is provided for by an appropriation in the Bill. It should have been in the ·schedule, but it was left out.

Clause put and passed. Clauses 2 to 8, both inclusive, put and

passed. " Sehedule"-Mr. FRY (Kurilpa) : I would like to ask

the Treasurer whether, in connection with salaries of the police. provision has been made fo;· bringing them into line with those of the Police Force in !\ew South Wales?

The TREASURER: ='Jo extra provision has been made this year.

Schedule put and passed. Preamble put and passed. The House resumed. The TE~IPOR-IRY CHAIRMAN reported the Bill

without amendment.

THIRD READING. The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Thc•odoro,

Chillagoe): I beg to move-" 'J'hat the Bill be nm;· read a third

time.'' Question put and passed.

DE='JTAL, OPTICIANS, A='JD PHARMACY BILL.

INITIATION IN Co:.~r"'!a'TEE.

(Mr. F'. A. Coopfr, Brcmer, in the chair.) HoN. F. T. BRE);NA;\l" (Toowoomba): I

beg to move-" That it is desirable that a Bill be

introduced to amend the Dental Act of 1902, the Opticians Act of 1917, and the Pharmacy Act of 1917 in certam paT'· ticulars.''

Hon. 'F. T. Brennan.)

1998 Dental, Opticians, and [ASSE:.\IBL Y.] Pharmacy Bill.

This rs only :t small Dill of eight clau,es, dealing 'mainly wrth the . natura of the examinations f.ct by the var10u~ Boards and the qualifications of a certain class of persons attached to the ceveral professions.

Mr. MOORE (.-lul,iyny): I \Vould like a little more information from tho Assrstant Home Socrctar, before we decide ;;·hether it is desirable to introduce this Bill or not. The hon. gcntlen1an has giYcn us no information at all. Ho has only said that it has wmothing to do with the examinations, but he told us nothing about the fees or a11ything else. If it is going to lllNtn that exanlinations will be done awa: 'With in some sections, and that there · are to be only partial cxan1iuations in others, ·we oufht to kno\.c This rnay be a very serious innoYation.

The SECRETARY FOR AGHTClLTC'RE: \Yhy not wait till vou sec the Dill?

:ur. :VlOOHE : Thon it will be said, " Why did you not objc>ct in the first place"(" \Ye want to know what tho Dill is about before

we agree \\'hcthcr it is d0~irable [3.30 p.n<.] to int>·oducu it or not. lf it is

\vhat [ have a su~picitJll it is, l think it is cntireh· unclc,irable that such a Dill should be bro;,ght iu.

The SECRE"rAHY FOR .AGR!Cc'LTURE: \Vhat is your suspicion?

::\lr. TIIOORE: l\Iy suspicion is that it will allow into a profe·",sion cc·rtain rnen ''Tho have not pas:-;ed thP proper examination, but \vho have nwroly been employed in it-they per· bnps have 110t taken the trouble to study and prss the exam111ation. If that suspicion is correct, I · trongl~· object. I would hkc some further iufurnultiun.

::\Ir. TA YLOR (W inll.•or) : I clo not know that it is desirable that a Bill such a· tho rnotion dc~rribc.:J should b(' iHtrocllH 0cl. I cert.ai12ly think the ::\Iini~tcr ~honlrl give us IUCrC' info1·mat1on as to 'vhat runcndrncnts it is propo:::c'-.1 to n1akP. 1t is :"aid that nH'll \rho han .. ~ qua1ifil'd ~·.:1·vice l].ndcr eertain co11dit ions arc going bP allowed to prac-tise, and vcc woulf1 like to kno .·· whether thcct suggestion is C'Otl'L'Ct.

Mr. KE\G ILo(lilll): I should like to hane :-;mue inforwatio11 \vith re, pect to the propo3ed amendment of ilro l'harmac:: "\et. I have in rny n1ind peop1c who arc carrying oll businc.<;;:j(''' and who in1roduc:e pharmacy as a side line and enga Q,'e chernists to dispcn:3e medicines. I am told that down South quite a number of the largo retail house·,, soft· goods house~. and :"O on. carry on this busincs~ as a side line and engage chcrrri~ts to mukc up prescriptions. I consider that unfair competition, and I wonld like to know from th-e Minister wlwtlwr there is a prohibition of practices of that dc.,cription.

Hon. F. T. Bm:xx.\x: Thoro is no such provision in the Bill.

2\Ir. WALKER (('noroma): I havo it on th<' YPrv best authoritv that a number of men \Vh~J, up to the pn';;3cn1 tirnc. have been too careless or laz:v to pass their Pxaminations are going to be put on the same foot· jn~· in regard to dispctJ.sing of dangerous drugs as qualified ch0rnists who have taken the hcu ble and gono to the expense of learning their profoesion.

'l'hc SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS: That is in tho present Act.

Mr. WALKER: If you are going to give these mon who up to the present time haYe

[Hon. P. T. Brennan.

not bothered to pass their examinations the·· sauw standing a.~ qualified n1en, you are· doing son1eth1ng that is unjust to the comnlunity.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS : The· hon. hrember for Kurilpa came in under the sarne condition~.

::\Ir. WALKER: I under tand that, if a man has bL·en practising for a number of years and has failed to pass his examinations, it is intended to put hrm on the same footing as the man who has qualified by examination, ·"hi eh is unfair. Let him pass the· exa1ninatlon and put hin1~elf on the sarne pla11e as the rest, so that wo may retain the. high opinion ,;ye have of our chen1ists all O\"Cr Australia. Thc'rc is reciprocity in the"e matters with the other States of Australia, anu it ''·ill be only a matter of time when \YO shall hcn-c mer! from J'\ cw South \Vales an'l ·victoria \Yho have been too lazy to pas5 thclr exan1inatio11s con1ing up here and; squeezing out our qualified men. \Vo clo not want unqualified 1110n di~pensing drugs or· in any ether profos,ion. It would be just as right to say that we should allow laymen such as .\ ou,. }Ir. Cooper, and n1e to compete with the .1-hsistant ::\1ini··ter in his learned profcs""ion.

::\lr. \YAHREX (Jlurrumba): There hasbeen a lot of discu, .. ion during this 1'arliament about tho importance of experts, and it ;.r.:enb inccnsistcnt that the Govennncnt should bring in a Bill to break clown the d'f'rnist'~ profr.,·sion.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICT:LTL"RE: \Vait um il yo •r see the Dill.

::\Ir. W AHRE:\" : I think that wme information should be given at this 'tago. \Yo hn,-e !ward from the GoYornmont benches a iot a bout the enormous co5t of physic. I am \"Cl": thankful that I do not take much ph_,:sic. but I think that, if we have to uso it, it i-. Lr better to ha:-e it dispensed by a qualified man than by one who is not qualified.

::\Ir. VOWLES (Dalby): I do not think it is desirable that these Acts should be· an cllc1ed until \VC gt~t some more information. I ha vc beard ::;o1no rumm.Ir•,,, and the} are nlurnting.

The PRE~IIER: ''Rumour is a lying jade."

::\Ir. \'0\VLES: I think we shall find in this < .tse that rumour is tolling the truth. It is said that a number of individuals who up to a Ct'dain time had the right to submit H.cmsches to examination and did not do so arc to be achnitted to these profPfsions withour examination. Apparently the GO\·ernmcnt a n• going to gi vo the opportunity tc• m on to inflict i hemselYes on the public in the profeseion of pharmacy and the dispensing of drug· when they are not of sufficient capacity to pass tho proper examinations or have not ho c1 sufficient in tercet in their work to take· advantag·c of tho legislation \Yhich has been pasoed to enable them to qualify. \Vh:v sPould \H' cater specially for them? It is n1ukiug a very dangerous alteration in our la,\·.

Tho SEC RET,\RY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS : The~ could han: g-ot in with no 1110re knowledgE" then they have now.

:\Ir. TlloORE: In 1885.

:\Ir. \'0\YLES: I do not know that. I know that the Dental Boanl is prepared to co;:sider all cases fairly, and I believe that,.

Dental, Opticians, and [:lG OcTOBER.] Pharmacy Bill. 1999

if people do not receive justice, the Minister ·has the right to take action.

The SEcRETARY FOR PeBLIC LANDS : You asked t!Jat the case of a man that you said had been unjustly treated should be specially dealt with.

1\lr. YO\YLES: That \vas a very, ver:: strong caoc. The man was behindhand with hi's applieatjon. Something went wrong in the post, and it arrived in Brisbane twentyfour hcurs late, and he lost his opportunity and had to earn· on for f1ve years until I took an intPrcst in his case and succeeded in getting recognition for him. It was a caso of a close corporation treating a man unjustly.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Do close corporatiOns do injustice?

1\Ir. VO\YI<ES: J'\o; but this one did in one instance.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: In t\vo or three jnstances.

:Mr. VO\VLES: If You can show that an indiYidual is being b~dly tr0atcd, well and good; but when you are dealing "ith classes of indiYiduals-as I understand the GoYcrnment aro going to do-who have had the opportunity to qualify, and when it affects th~ h0alth of tho communitv-even the lives of the community-it is not right to gh·e them the privilege of practising and corn· pcJ ing against men who have qualified and al'(' doing a real service to the community. \\'hat will become of our confidcnc<' in the profc"ions? A man is going to make up a prescription, probably containing a dangerous poison. \Ye haYe confidence in him in 1naking up the prescription because \V8

bdieve that he is capable of under.;tanding it and makinp- it up.

Hon. F. T. BRENNAN: Do you say that Jack Ward of \Varwick could not make up a pr·PS-eription?

Mr. VO\YLES: I do not know Jack Ward. I 'mderstand that th0re are twentv-five Jack ·wards concerned in this Bill, ancf that they have brought a certain an1ount of pressure to bear on the Government. Evidcntlv Mt·. Jack \Vard has some claim on the Govern· mcnt. If he has a personal claim, let him bring· it forward as an individual and show that he is competent; and, if he is being done an injustiee, every hon. member in this Cornnittec who boasts that he is prepared to do justice to the communitv at large will be pt·e)ared to consider his case and, if necessary, ey2n agTee to legislation. But the Gorernn1ent are not going to induce us to a.greo that it is desirable to take a whole section of the people and giye them sp·ecial legislation when that section consi,ts of all sorts of individuals-some of them no doubt desirable, but others questionable. and others vcrv questionable. \Ve should not be legis· lating in this way in matters that affect the health and possibly the lives of the community, and just casually saving, "Oh well, you have been so many years at the trade that you are now going to be giv-en the opportunity of becoming a boss." In order to gain entrance to any profession you have to pass examinations, and, if a man is not competent to pass the examination, or if he has had an opportunity and neglected it and the fault is all on his side, we should not be legislating in the dir·ection proposed. I would like to refer to certain matters men-

tioned by the hon. member for Logan. That is a practice which is being earned on at present, particularly in Brisbane and some of the other bigger towns where certain busines.ses or con1panies are engaging chemists to competG against legitimate chemists. I believ.c that the names of some of the companies ha;-e practically been bought. Generally, the companies have been taken over and arc being utilised, not by chemi-ts but by shareholders outside for prof1t. The Pharmac~- Act was never intended to be used in that direction, and, unless the chemists are L•giti""ate chemists and the businesses are legitin;ate businesses, • we should take steps to lcg"late to stop that sort of thmg.

Que-tion-That the Bill be introduced-put· and the Committee divided:- '

Mr. Barber , Bertram

Brennan Bulcock Carter Col!ins Dash Ferricks Fo!ey Gillies Gledson Hartley Jones

Tellers:

Mr. Corser , Costello

Edwards Fry Ke!so Kerr King Logan

Tellers:

AYRS. :Jlr. Dunstau

, Conroy ,, Kuwan ., hilday , \\"ilson , Couper, \Y".

AYES. 2:5. Jllr. Land

, J.arc;ornbe L!oyd }leCormack }fullan Payne Hiordan Ryan t-:mith Theodore \Yinstanley Wright

Mr. Foley and JJr. 'Vrigbt.

XOE8, 15.

lllr. Maxwel! .l\1oore

, Kott Peterson Taylor

, Vowles , \Varren

Mr. Costtdlo and )Ir. r,ogau.

PAIRS:

XoEs. :'\fr. w~tlker

l'etnf-' l~rant1

JJ :Jlorg::m , ~lplJCl .. ChtJton

RPsolved in the affirmative.

ThJ House resumed.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRl\IA~ reported that the Committee had come to a re~olution.

Ho!<. F. T. BRE:'\NAN (l'oozcoornba): I beg to move-

,, That the resolution be agreed to."

1\Ir. TAYLOR (Trindsor): I called ,, Divide!" boc"LbSe we object to the attitude adopted by the .:Minister in not giving the House m!crrnallon un the amendino· Bill which he proposes to introduce. rfe was Informed of certain run1oul'S circulatinO'" aroun:d the city. Certain inforrnation 'va~ supphcd. and that may be right or wrong. The attitude adopted by the Minister was most unusual, espccialJy as wo arc nearing the end of the session. \V e have been working rrctty hard to get the business through, and, if the Minister can in an,. way facilitate the despatch of businesc by giving -o;,Y11~tC'vcr infor1nation is in his po1ver, he should do eo. Thi• Bill was only put before the House ye,terdav. As the 2\Iinistor absolntelv r!eclined to 'furnish tho little information asked for, I was quite jnstifierl in calling for a division. It is bad tastr1

Mr. Taylor.]

2000 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Prickly-pear Land Bill.

and bad form for the Minister not to give information which is honestly sought for

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! Question-That the resolution be agreed

to-put and passed.

FIRST RMDING.

HoN. F. T. BRENNAN (Toowoomba) presented the Bill and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time."

Question put and passed. The secc.nd readin!i was made an Order

of the Day for Tuesday next.

QUESTIONS. REPORT OF DESTRUCTION OF THE TOMATO CROP

BY CATERPILLARS, \V ELLINCTON POINT DISTRICT.

Mr. KELSO (Nundah), asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock--

" 1. Has his attention been drawn to ,a letter appearing in the Brisbane " Daily Mail " of 20th instant, in which Mr. J. T. Bilsborough writes of the terrible havoc caused to the tomato crop in the Wellington Point district by the caterpillar?

" 2. Will he inquire into the truth or otberwise of the said statement 1

" 3. If the statement is correct, will he inform the House what action be proposes to take in the matter 1"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICDLTURE (Hon. W. N. Gillies, b'acham) replied-

" 1. Yes. " 2. ,and 3. A special entomological

inquiry into the infestation has been conducted in the Cleveland district, in which Wellir.gton Point is included. A report thereon has been prepared by the Government Entomologist, and will be issued in namphlet form as soon as it has bee11 prmted."

PRICKLY PEAR LAND BILL.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE. (Mr. z,·. A. Cooper, Bremer, in the c'hair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC J~ANDS (Hon. W. McCorrnack, Cai1·ns) : I beg to move-

" That it is deeirable that a Bill be introduced to make better provision for the administration of lands infested with prickly-pear, within the State, and for other consequential purposes."

This Bill ,ombodic<s the recommendations that were recently made of the Royal Cornmission. It is r,roposed to place the pricklypear areas in Queensland under the control of a Commission consisting of three persons. The Comwission, after having surveyed the prickly-pear areas, will recommend to the Government that certain areas be declared prickl;:-pear areas, and that other areas be declared buffer areas. The dut10s of the Commission will be divided into two headings, judicial and administrative. Judicially thev will .sit and act as the Land Court acts to-day. That portion of the St<ate that is de~lared a prickly-pear area and a prickly-pear buffer area will be taken out of the jurisdictiQn of the Land Court

[Mr. Taylor.

aud placed under the jurisdiction of the Commission. The Commission will sit as a court in its judicial capacity and cieal with all questions such as rent, conditions, etc., as a judicial body. It will be answerable only to Parliament for its conduct of that portion of its functions. For it" administrative duties it will be answer a b!e to the Governor in CounciL Its admini,trative duties will include the spending of money, the method of de,truction of pear, and the hundred and one things that come under the administrative heading. It is proposed to appoint the Commission as early as possible. It will survev ihe areas so that ·during the coming year-perhaps by the middle of the year-the Government will get the organisation going and make some effective attempt to deal with the prickly-pear menace.

I am not going over the whole of the Bill at this stagP. The main object of the Bill is to give greater security and confidence to the holders of prickly-pear lands, who. in return for that security, will be expected to carry out certain C<mditions of clearing. The

last law operated adversely [4 p.m.] against the man who attempted

to clear as against the man who did not clear his la.nd. Local authority valuations, and even the Land Court rents, adversely affected the good man who cleared his land, and really allowed the man who did not clear to escape the result of his carelessnBss and to hold his la.nd under better conditions than the other man. The main object is to give confidence, to arrange for expert advice, and to give extensions where it is considered necessary-generally to give compensation for good work performed. It will impose conditions and restrictions where work is not performed. I do not think it is necessary to go any further with the Bill to-day. It is a very comprehensive measure and it. has no politics in it. It is a measure that will have to be scrutinised closely, and, if it does what the Commission thinks it should do, it will at least prevent the spread of prickly-pear. \Ve cannot expect to clear the pear areas, but we may expect to prevPnt the spread of the pest.

It is proposed that a definite sum of money shall be appropriated each year to assist the measure. 'l'his is a matter that has been neglected by successive Governments, and sooner or later something will have to be done. I acknowledge that it is late in the day, but I have tackled the question because I realise that, if it is not tackled now while the report of the Royal Commission is fresh in everybody's mind, it might be allowed to become a " slaughtered innocent," and nothing be done to solve the problem. The second reading will be taken next week, and hon. members will have an opportunity of perusing the Bill in the meantime.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett): I thank the Minister for his explanation of the Bill. It is certainly satisfactory to know that the provisions he has enumerated are to be embodied in the Bill, which proposes to deal with those areas which are clearable and also to protect cleared land. Jurisdiction is to be given to the Commissioner over such areas. That seems to be a most essential and desirable condition. We see day by day a greater fJOssibility of our densely infested areas being cleared. Since the introduction of the " Dactylopius Tornentosus" by Mr.

Prickly-pear Land Bill. [26 OcTOBER.] Prickly-pear Land Bill. 2001

Temple Clerk. that proposition is becoming in their use otherwise he will get into a more hopeful without any human labour at row. I am' pleased to learn that thoro is all. Wo hope that this Bill will bring about nothing in the Bill that will make it corn-what the Minister prophesies. I think the pulsory for Parliament to devote money in Commissioucr is out to do good work. purchasing arsenic pentoxide to fight the

Mr. PETERSON ('J"'" ormanby): I appre- pear. ciate the remarks of the Minister and notice ::}Ir. VO\VLES (Dalby): I am very glad that he said that the Bill is non-political. that this Bill has b')en introduced. I cer-I hope that he really means that. When the tainlv think that it is time that some mee1sure Bill gets into Committee I trust that we should br< introduced to try to cope with the shall be given an opportunity of improving prickly-pear problem. I ha.ve never ne15lecte_d it. an opportunitv since I have been 111 thrs

The SECRETAHY FOR PFBLIC L.lxDS: I under- House of advocating that action be taken, take that the Bill will be non-political so and I think there is only one other hon. long as you do not raise political questions. member who has been more persistent than

Mr. COS'rELLO: \Vhat about appointments? mvself-thc hon. member for JY1urilla-who has been termed the "prickly-pear fiend." "'e have asked times out of number why no m2ntion of prickly-pear was made in the Governor's Speech. \\ e have asked on every occasion whether the Government intended to undertake the eradication of the pear. ::'\ ow something has come forward as the result of the findinrrs of a Roval Commission. The people of Que~nsland d~ not appre53iate \Yhat it n1cans and ho\v necessary It IS to lro·islate to save our biggest asset, our land. Itbis a remarkable thing to find on referenco to the map attached to the rcpor_t the. aren that is alreadv infest.~·d-I thmk It Is 23,000.000 acres_:_and the scourge continues. It is hi h time that the Government should attempt sm·ioush to bloc)< the incurs!ons of the prickly-pear. The Mnustor has grven us ct~rtain rrlCagro inforrnation ,-dt~ respect to t 1IC Hill and of course, at th1s stage we could uo't exp~ct anything el··c. \V c are told that the Commission \:ill have full power 111

its judicid capacity >vhile in its administrative capacity it wiil be under the control of the Gm·unor in Council. \\'hether that control will be reasonable or not is a matter for the future to decide.

Mr. PETERSON: I do not believe in introducing politics into a Bill like this. Although the Bill has been introduced so late in the day, it cannot be said that hon. members did not r>tise the issue long before it was embodied in the report of the Prickly Pear Con1n1is:.;ion. Time and tin1e again when I >Yas sitting on the back benches opposite I aclvocatcd the e>~iablishment of a Prickly Pear Board. and other hon. members han' Hlso achocatcd it. I sinccrclv trust th .• t when the Bill '""•ts into Committ;,c we shall ha,ve "'' opporhmity of amending it. if necessary. in the interest of the people of Queensland.

The SEcRETIRY FOR P<:BLIC LAxDS: I have spent hours on it.

Mr. PETERSON: I give the :Minister credit for doing so, and I think the time is now rjpe fol' the rncasure to come into operation. I consider that the Commission did not go as carefully into the insect problem as it ought to have done.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC L'<NDS: That is only an expression of opinion bv the Com~ mission. It does not follow that: it is embodied in the Bill.

J\lr. PETERSO;'\: In their report they recomn1end the use of arsenic pcntoxidc; and I do not knov: hm>· a bodv of men could recommend to a department 'that it should use arsenic pentoxide after our experience of past years and the cost incurred. The suggestion staggers n1e, and there is nothing political in m;· saying that.

The SECRETAHY FOR PuBLIC L.INDS: That is only a method of procedure. There is nothing about that in the Bill.

Mr. PETERSON: I was under the impression that it would be compulsory to use arsonic pentoxide, and that tllolicands of pounds would be expended in a product which has b•~en proved to be practicallv use-less. '

The SEci!E'fARY FOR MINES: Arsenic pentoxide will not be used, as the hon. member appears to think.

Mr. PETERSON: I am glad to hear the Secretary for Mines sav that.

The SECRETARY FOR , Pc;BLIC LANDS : \V e shall haYo to attach most importance to biological means of fighting the pear.

Mr. PETERSO;'\: I intend to read con·espondence from settlers in mv electorate showing what excellent work the "Dactylopius Tomentosus " is doing in the destruction of pear. rrhcre is some misconception between the "Dactylopius Tomcntosus" and the " Coccus Indicus," and one has to be careful

I am looking fonPrd with a g-ool deal of interest to the ~Bill. l darpsay no horl. rrlcn1-ber knO\I~S more a hont prie::ly~jwar than I do. I :1n1 onf~ of thosP \Yho liYe in a district \chich is affeetcd io-da,,, and I know the incursions it is making. I have seen thousnnds of acres of Cro~vn 1a.nds ruinc·-1 year nfter vcar-land in occupation Dud land not in. oCcupation-a!lcl ."-o all re tl_isc' th~t pnckly-pcar clcanng IS not cconon1Iel1l. \\ e can kill it and get rid of it in many ways, but the ques1 ion i' whetlwr the game 1s worth the candle. H it i, going to cost £4 an acre to ckar land that i· only ',' orth 10s. an acre when it is cleared. then a mau requires a big heart to tackle it.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES· Arc the;· not w;ing r;rickly-pt 'll' for foddC'r in your electorate?

l\1r. VOWLES : To a small extcut, hut no nu1n will grow prickly~pe,,r for f?ddcr for choice. ~When YOU speak about jll"!Cklypear as a fodder, it is nJl right if ;von have it in scrub countrv where there 1s 0<hbl0 ·<Tub, snch as saltbtish. In tho:e cases it will keep cattle alive and CHm fatten th0m, but, no 1nan \vho is in that class of conntrv \Yould have prickly-pear in prpfcrence to gt:a~s.

The SECRETI\RY FOR PL:BLIC LANDS : It is f<Urprising what some 1nen have done on prickly-pear land.

Mr. VOWI.ES: I know they have done wonders. but the cost of clearing is too great; and when you got men to work on

JJ1r. Vowles.]

2002 Prickly-pea1· Land Bill. [ASSE:J1BLY.] Prickly-pear Land Bill.

prickly-p0ar clearing, as a rule thev are a class of ';~-orkcr who do not do a goO'd day's \Vork.

l\1r. COLL!KS: \Vh:-- is it that you must always oay something against the worker?

Mr. VOWLES: I am not talking about canecutter& now. The man who tc1cklcs that job generally is a man who is looking for tucker. If you have to pay the high wages fixed by the In~ustrial Arbitration C~mrt and the high pnces for pmsons, It brmgs vou back to this proposition--that the Government have not only to crefLte a Commission, but they have to engage in. rc,earch and find some new means of dealmg wrth the pear in an economical way. 'vVe cannot cxp•cct the Commission to do the impossible. It is going to be a matter of experiment and a n1atter of experience, and if you appnint a Comn'lission consisting of practical 1nen, then vou have a prospect of making some hcad,,;:av. I could suggest many men, but possibly they ,.-ould not be acceptable to the 'Minister but I do a'k that the Commission shail co~sist of business men, and that it be kept altogethe,- outside of politics.

::\Lr. 1\lOORE (A ubiuny): This question is of vital importance to the State. I have had a g-ood deal of experience in pricklypear co{lntry, as I took up land in a!l area that was clear of pear, and now there IS pear round the whole frontage. I regret that the Royal "Commission on Prickly-pear did not bring in a minority r~port according ~o their own convictions, instead of bemg gmded m their report by what they thought the Government were likf'!y to accept.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC LA;o;Ds: \Yho suggests that?

Mr. MOOR R : I suggest it. I read a great deal of tho evidence, and I asked one member of the Commission why he had not· gone on tho evidence given before the Con1n1ission, and he stated he did not think it would have been much good, and the Commission had made recommendations that they thought the Government were likely to accept and put into force. I know the Government did not issue any instructions, but I say it is rather a pity the Commission went on those Iincs.

The SECRET•,RY FOR ~\GRIClTLTURE: Don't you think their recommendations are practical?

Mr. MOO RE: Yes, as far as thE'v go; but I do not think they go far enough. I was •:cry pleased to hear the Minister state that it "as the intention of the Bill to carrv out the recommendations of the Commission as far as possible, so that the men endeavouring to clear pear will get assistance, and the man letting it grow will not get the assistance he has got in the past.

The SECRETARY FOR PDBLIO LANDS: The only objection that I saw to the report was that they wanted too much power given to the Comn1ission.

Mr. MOORE: Very drastic powers will be necessary.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : In this Bill there will be quit" a number of issues crop up in regard to rights.

Mr. MOORE: Very big issues will crop np, and the economic _iboue will . be most important of all. It IS most difficult to ectimate t.lre cost of clearing pear, and it is

[Jlr. Vowles.

quite possible that the Board mav make am estimate of the cost of clearing" pear, but when it comes to be done, it will be found' that the cost is three times as much_, and it will become uneconomical.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : On present methods there is not much hope of clearing pear by hand.

Mr. MOORE : There is not much hope in that regard. The most pfficient anci the most economical wa;,• of clearing that I have seen has been by rolling it down by tractor in scrub country.

Th, SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : That svstem of clearin" would be impossible in some places. ~

Mr. :'\IOORE: It is onlv wh"re the land is. good that that svstem c[tn be carried out. In other instances, it is only a question of keeping the pear in check.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLlO LANDS: Pending some biological solution, it may bepossible to prevent the spread of the pear.

Mr. MOORE: I hope the Bill recognises the difference between clea.ring pear in thebig pas,toral areas and in the small areas. that are close\7 settled. What might be a hardship in the big· pastoral areas could be easily carried out in the closely-settled areas, where the land is more valuable. I was discussing one or two points with Mr. Payne, a membE'r of the Commission, and apparently the Commission based the whole of theirrecommendations, in so far as they deal with local authorities, on the bigger areas in the pastoral districts. When I pointed out what it would me:tn in the closely-settled. areas, where holdings consist of 160 to 200 acres, he said they had not taken that pO'int into consideration at all, and that they would endeavour to remedv that when the Bill was. going through. •

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I am going so far in regard to pastoral kaseholda that I a.m giving the lessee on the expiration of the lease a priority right to one of the grazing farms into which it will be cut up. That is not now in the law.

Mr. MOORE : I trust the Bill will soon be in our hands, so that we can study it at the week-end. I am glad to hear the Minister cay that he .does not regard the· Bili a.s a party measure, and that he will be· prepared to accept any reasonable sug;gestions which come from this side of the Housa in the direction of making the Bill mor" workable.

Question put and passed.

The House resumed.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR:\fAN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

The resolution "as agreed to.

FIRST READING.

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (:Hon. vV. McCornmck, Cairns) presented tho TLII, and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time."


The second reading was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

Fruit Marketing [213 OCTOBER.] Organisation Bill. 2003"

FRUIT MARKE'l'I~G ORGANISATION BILL.

l'< rTIATJO:-i" JN CoMMITTEE.

(Jlr. P. A. Cooper, Brcuu:1·, in the chair.) The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTuHE

(Hen. "\V. :'\. Gillie~, Eaclwm): I beg to move-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to provide for the organisation of the ma.rketing of Queenslanr1 fruit.''

In moving this resolution, I think t'Iat the cbronic state of disorganisation in the fruit industry of Queensland justiGcs a Bill with this title. The scheme set out in the Bill h~s been formulated by those who bave authority to speak for the fruitgrowcrs of thi· State. I refer to the Standing Fruit Committee of the Council of Agneulture, the State Advisorv Board in connection with the Federal frt1i t scheme, the Director of the Southern Fruit Growers' Society, the Provisional Committee of Direction which was appointed by the large fruit conference last July. when the scheme was approved of, as the Provisional Committee of Direction by whose assistance it will bo po·:si\Jle b carry out this Bill if it becomes law. At the fruit conference. at w.hich all frnitgrowPril in Queensland had the right to be present, there were 110 delegates, representmg 75 per cent. of the fruitgrowers of Queensland. That conference was brought about as the re·sult of a scheme which V\.-as dra,vn up by the Standing Committee of the Council of Agriculture. 'The Director of the Council of Agriculture wont to the Southern market' and collected certain information about the marketing of Queensland fruit, a,nd after his return the Standing Committee went into the matter and drew up a scheme. That scheme was printed and circulated amongst all the Local .Producq·s' Associations in vvhich there were any fruitgrowers, and they were requested to send delegates to the conference, which was probably the largest fmit conference evL·r held in Queensland. At that conference the scheme embodied in tl,is Bill was almost unanimously approved of. Since then the Council of Agriculture has asked for the Bill to be brought in this S•'Ssion. As I have said, the disorganised state of the fruit industry is "' .iustification hr something special being done for the industrv. The Bill contains the scheme rh·awn ttp by the Standing Committee of the Council of Agriculture a,nd approved of by t.hc fruit conference·.

Tn brief, it provicies for a committee of direction. A provisional corn1nittee was s•'lectcd at the conference I have just mentioned, and it will hold office for six months afrer the Bill becomes law. After that an election will take place, and the fruitgrowers will elect a permanent Committee of Direction. That Committee of Direction will be a corporate body a,nd will have powo" to '"sume control of all the fruit grown in Oueensland-to control the marketing, transr;ort, and packing of all fruit. The exioting channels and oq:ranisations will he used. The object of the scheme is not to bring about drastic reform-not to create a pool, bec<eusc the fruitdTO\\ ers on more than one occasion haYe declared themselves against a pool. If a pool were formed, it would have to irdce tbe responsibility of marketing -and dcalmg with the whole of the fruit at once. The Committee of Direction representing the fruitgrowers will as•,ume control of_ the marketing and dealing with the frmt a,s

and when necessary. It will use the existing channels -and machinery for the time Loing. Local associations will be used. It is intended that thesn local associations shall be unified. I think that is all I need say at thi '· juncture. The Bill will soon be in the hands of hon. members, who will be a,ble to study it during the week-end. I hope that next week we shall be able to pass the Bill and that it will become law.

There is justification for specially dealing with the h;uit industrv in its present disorganised cnndition. It is an ind"nstn which shoul-d be fully organised. because of ihy perishable nature of the commodity. h Js cepable of great expansion in Queensla_nd. Much of our unused land at the present t1me should be growing fruit. There is ~ lot of land which is suitable for that purpose in the tropical and semi-tropical aroas of tlw State. I think that every member of the Chamber realises that something should he don<' in a,n effort to orgrmise th • fruit industry. 1'here bas been son1c littl~ critici2ITh in the Pros·" from anonymous wnters, but there has been no concreto scheme put forword by anyone, so far as I can se""! that i., preferable to the scheme outhned m, th_e Hill. The Southern Queensland I• rult Growers' Society cl airns to represent threefourths of the fruitgrowors o! Qu~enol" ncl, a11d the executive of that society ;s unammously m favour of this . scheme. The sc'·eme. to some extent, will 'tbsorb tha,t organisation, if it is agreeable_ ~o bo absorbed in a bigger scheme than It IS abln to bring about. I think there. is every justiGcation for hon. members givmg this scheme t 11eir serious consideration and suppDrt.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): As the Mini;;tor· has said there is a, very urgent demand for smnethir{g to be done in connection with the> fruit industry. H ha>" been a.bundantl.r eYident during the last twelve or mghteen months that to organise vrimary proclucen is one of the mosL difficult tasks that can \Je ir,ken on. It is only po•·;ible \Jy legisle~tion snch as we have been discu'Sing lately that the effective organisation of the prinnry prodncero can be brought about .. vYhou WO

get the Bill we shall see what ts proposecl to be done. It seems to me that the mca"m·e i-. somewhat on the lines of the :Meat Industry Encouragement Bill we woro considering last night.

'rhe SECRETARY FOR AGRICcLTCRE: The only e;sontial difference is that this is roally a trading scheme and the meat scheme Is an advi80f;\' scheme.

Mr. TA YLOR : Are the expenses of the underta.king to be found wholly and . solely b·" the fruito-rowors themselves, or wtll the Government

0

as::;ist thern financially in carrying on their activities.

The SECRETARY FOE AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. N. Gillies, b'aclwm): This Bill was not preceded by a messa go fr9m. His Excellency the Governor because It Imposes no financial obligation on the Government. It sets out that the committee shall make all the rwcesmry arrangements for Gnance. Whether the Government will be asked later on for a guarantee, as in the case of the Wheat P0ol and the Egg Pool, is another matter. There is no obligation on the Government to finan,·e the scheme nor is there any suggestiOn by the growers that the Government should do so.

Mr WARREN (Murrumba): I am convinced that there is an absolute need for some such scheme as that contained in the Bill.

Mr ... Warren.]

2004 Fruit 1v.£arlceting [ASSEMBLY.] j Organisation Bill.

Nobod:v knows that better than those who have boon working for it. The people who are moving in the matter are conscientiously of the opinion that this scheme is going to ill(' •t the case, but I have a responsibility to

the fruitgrowers in my electo[4.30 p.m.] rate, and I do not know whether

the growers who are pro-posing to rarr~~ ont thi~ scheme will bo <>apahlo of handling £1,800,000 worth of fruit a YUU. The scheme will have to be controlled b:v a body of men with sufficient capacitv to earn· it to a succc>sful i•·sue. It is on the cards 'that thev ,,-ill fail. It is no UoO saying that because this scheme is rather a gooct sclwme-if not the best which can be put before the growers-it will succeed. Thcr·" is certainly something· in it-the growers have been battling for it-and they rnav make a sucCC'AS of it. I arn not as satisftecl" the Minister, however, that the growers indi.-idually, as distinct from their orgauisation, arc in fayour of it. I would be wholeheartedlv for the schcnw if the Minister had tak ·n a· poll or was prepared to do so; and T rlo not ask for mor<' than a democratic majority. I lwliovo that the Stanthorp·B growers arc in favour of the srhemc praeticallv tu a man: but, if the Government pass the schcn10 and the growers are not unanimously, or fair!:, unanimously, behind it, that will be a weak 11oint.

T;, SECR~nRY FOR AGRICl.:LTURE : I am nssured b> the body which has brought up the scheme that the big· majority of the growers are behind it.

l\Ir. WARREX: I have made that statement m:vsol£, speaking of the Local Produc·crs' Orgalisiations, but I am sorrv to think that th<' Southern Quo('llsland Fruit Growers'

. Societ:· is prepared to sink ibelf, as the Minister said.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTl.:RE: To be absorb. d in the bigger scheme.

l\Ir. \Y ARREN: It is not being ahsorbed: it is boiug ,,unk-or otlwnvise the capital of the society 1vould be used by the new scheme. 1 bclieo.-c thaJ, if th, case wpre put fairly lwfor:' the growers, they would suppott it, but the fact that it has not been put before them as gTowcrs is oue of the r·casons -why th,,- might be against it.

The SECRETAHY FOR AGiliOULTURE: That means that you think a n1ajority are in fa vom· of it?

M r IV ARREX: I am propated to go out and put the case for the scheme befor-e the gTo\vcr.-: and contribute m•," share of the cost of doing so. I am not trying to decry the scheme. I think it is as good a scheme as any \Yhieh has bP~·n suggested, and that it contain,~ the gerrns of the very best schen1c that has eYPr been a<h-anced. I' am very glad :f10 :\linistor is introducing the Bill in th· spirit which he has shm.-n, but I ask wh ther it vconld nol be bdter even at tbe eleventh hour to plac0 the scheme before the grow •rs and get their sanction. That is the only weak spot in the Bill, and. if it is as ''oak as I am afraid it. i--., it •vill ha.-e the efl'ect of produci Ill-( a very ba cl result. From the point of \·iew of the organisation, the gro'wcrs hav c'Jnlc here in a manly \Ya~y and havf' produced " schenco.• which is certainly workable. They arc not asking the Government to dip their hands into the Trpasury for them, although I an1 of opinion that no scheme to organise a hod_v of poor fruitgrowors will succeed without thE: loan of money or support from the

[iVlr. Warren.

Gc·:c,·nm<'nt in thr shape of the backing of a bank o.-erdraft. Not long ago, on the vote for " Soldier Settlement" in Committee of Supply, we were dealing with the terrible condition of the pineapple industrY, which proves the absolute need for some organisation, and whilst I am not exnctlv satisfied with certain daus<!s of the Bill. { feel that the neect for the Bill is so great that it would hP wise for the Minister scriouslv to tako -into ronsidc•ration the suggestion's I have nFrde. because I am convincpd that the grmvorc; Y>ould then be more united than en'r. On the second reading of the Bill. with tho permission of the House. I intenct to go into· the hi ... tor · of the fnut ;nrlustn- to sho''' how it has been practicallv "dov\·ned" from thCJ Ycry inception of tli.e organisation. The \ 1:h1.·atgrowers and gro,,~ers of othor prim:•r v products have ne.-er suffered to the samo extent as the fruitgrowers, and I would be the very last. representing as I do more fruitgrowcrs than any other man in this Chamber. to do an~·thing to gin' the industry a setback. All I am saying is sa id with the intention of trying to a-,ist the industry and cnnble this Bill. with two or three modificatloJw to come into operation at a Yery early date.

Mr. COSTELLO (Carnarrnn): After hearing the explanation of this Bill by the Mini~ter, ono can onlv arrive at ihc conclusion tha( thi_., is a grt;W('rs' schPn1e which originated at a conference held in Brisbane in Ju]v ]asi. If the gro,vers arc as unanirnous. for' this scheme as we undcrst.•nd from the Minister they arc. surely they are competent enough to look after tlwir own affairs! \Ve h<we hearct of the deplorable state of organieaiion in the fruit indmtry during the last three years. \\'hat did the Government recent];: tC'll us after '"e had F·ccnrcd about £750,000 from th" Commonwealth Go.-ernmPnt to finance the fruit industrY? Thev told the fruitgrowcrs to put their own house in order bcfor0 thcv came to the Government for anv fm·the~· assistnnce. The fruitgrowers in Que0nsland are the first to mo.-e in a scheme like this, and eYidently they are tmanimcus on the matter. The hon. member for l\Inrrumba "as o.-identlv afraid that the B·-.11'd w:auld br· incompetent to manage the industry. The fruitgTO\YCrs have asked for this necessnr,v machinery, and the,· have p;uarantPcd \vitbout an7 cost to the GoYernmf'nt to caiTY on their o-wn businf'BS. If the Boar cl is incompcteut, then the fruitgrowcr; who ha..-e their rrprcs0ntatiycs on the Board will see that rnen of bnsinc~s kno\dPdge are placed there. I shall probabl:.- have a goorl den! to sny on the Bill at a later stage. I hope that it will ha.-e a ,.needy passage through this House. so that the scheme can be put into practice at an early date.

Ques1 ion put and pacscd. The House rf'SUlll('d,

The TE:ItPORAHY CHAIRl\LIN reported that the Committe0 had come to a resolution.

Th0 resolution 'vas agreed to.

FmsT REAm-,;a.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (IIon. \\'. N. Gillies. Eaclwm) presented the Bill, m1rl moved-

" That the Bill bo now read a first tin1e."

('uestion put anct passed. The second reading of the Bill was made

an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

Land Acts (Ret'iew of Cattle [26 OcTOBER.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill. 2005

SALARIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE. !Mr. P. A. Cooper, Brem• r, in the chair)

HoN. F. T. BRENNAN (Toowoomba): I beg to rnovo-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amend the Salaries Act of 1922 in a certain particular."

'Ibcre is really only one clause in the Bill, which reads-

" In the proviso to section six of the principal Act, after the words ' provided that' the words save as is next herein· after mentioned ' are in•,erted, and the following provision is added to the last section:-

" 'Notwithstanding the last foregoing provision, every member of the Police Force shall make payments towards the Police Superannuation Fund in the amounts which are payable on the salary aduallY received by him after any deduction from salarc· by this Act pre•·cribed has been made.' "

Question pnt and passed. The Houec rc,umed. The TE:IIPORARY CHA!R}!AX reported that the

Cnmmitte0 had come to a resolution. The resolution was agreed to.

FIRST RL\DING. Hox. F. T. BREKKAN (Toozcoomba) pre

seHted the Bill, and moved-" That the Bill be now read a first

time." Question put and passed. The second reading of the Bill was made

an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

LA:\D ACTS (REVIEW OF CATTLE HOLDING RENTS') AMEND:YlEKT BILL.

SECOXD READIXG. The SECRETARY FOR FGBLIC LANDS

(Hon. \\-. ;vrcCormack, Caims): There is very little to add to what I have already said on this Bill. The idea is to give relief to h•ssees holding Crown land for cattle pur· no,.:>s. One will rcadih· understand the i1eccssity for the Bill aftc"r im-estigating the stnte of the cattle market. There is practically no sale for our meat overseas to-day; ou1 n1catworks arc not opern1ing, and our market is practically confined to local consumption. The rents that will be reviewed wPl'e fixed by the Land Court when high prices "ere ruling for stock. The rents fixed at that particnlar time have rendered the prc11f'rt ie~ yaluolt~ss from an economic standpcint. and it is now proposed to allow the leaseholder, b,\' notice in ''Tiling to the :\finisl<"r, to ask for the review of his rent. The Minister ,vi!! then have the matter submitted to >he Land Court as promptly as poesiblc. and the matter will be dealt with b.-- the Land Court, in chambers if pos.,ible. h is not proposed to go over the whole s.\·c.tem now adopted in fixing rents, because that method will entail endless delav and uniJ.cccssary expense upon the les~ce. V The Land Court has all the evidence at its disposal with r0gar~l to the carrying capacity of holchngs and w1th regard to all the other matters that are dealt with when fixing rents.

The main issue that they will de11l with, without hearing evidence, is the market for

meat in Queensland. It is proposed that the Court shall sit immediately after the passage of this Bill and a lessee may make application to b~come a party beiore the Court. The members of the Land Court will sit in Brisbane or elsewhere as a court and review the whole of the rents that the owners asked to have reviewed under this Bill The rents that are reviBwed will have a currency of five years commencing from 1st Julv. 1921, and terminating on 30th Jun<'. 1926. They may be called slump period rents. This period will be regarded as a rehef period owing to the lack of markets for stock. Any lessee who has paid his rent 11p to date will, in the case of a roductwn being allowed by the Court, be credited with the overplus on the balance of his term. There will be no refund of rent, and the credit will be as from lst July, 1921. The Iwod for this Bill is patent to everybody. lf the nrices of cattle existing a few years ago ani compared with the prices existing to-day, it is obvious t.hot tho rent wh1ch w<" considered fair when cattle were £11 or £12 per head, is unfair to-day when the cattleowner is almost insolvent, and the prices of his cattle are about 19s. per lOO lb., or about £5 or £6 per head in the saleyards. There is a very small market for cattl8 to-day. In fact there IS no market qt all for cattle in the North-vVost, where most of the cattle in Queensland are. The local consumption of cattle amounts to very little and tho Southern market-- are out of the question at present. The meatworks are not operating, and the cattle are accumulating on the runs with no possible avenue of sale for 'them. The position eYen for the big companies is ve~'Y -difficult. .It may be arg-ued that a reductwn of rent w1ll not save the situation. I quite admit that. If the rents were cut in half, it would not make a .rreat financial difference to the owner of the holcling. The Bill is an evidence of the bonit fides of the Government to take their share of tho burden of the slump period. and at the same time the financial institution<> will rceogmse that an obhgations rests on them to carry on those people until ~uch time as the market i1nprovcs. That is the object behind the Bill. It will l'ive some immediate relief that will be ;aticfactorv to the lessees. It vvill further Fhow to "the people who have supported fhc cattleowner ancl especially the smaller individuals that thcv chould take a further share of th'e responsibility in financing thorn. The fmrtncial institutions vv-ill hav-e to carry the cattleownr~s until times improYe. It will bo no good tht:ir foreclosing on the stations, as in that r~lSC thev would haYo to e,trry on. The Bill vv-ill 'giv<' a good deal more rcljC'f than appears on its surface.

\Yhrn I introdvced the Bill I said that the Minister would be able to deal with the question of occupation licenses. I have hund that unl"'' I embo<h- occupatwn licenses in the Bill I shall bo placing a burden on mvself bv having to cancel the 0xistinp_' occuPation 'IjcenseR and ism18 nr:w ones. When the Bill reaches the Committee st11gc I propose to introduce an amendment having for its object the inclusion of occupation licences as well as pastoral leases. Quite a large quantity of our country in Quec111sland is held under occupation licenses running for a long period of years. It has 11cver been selected as leases but has been held by pastoralists as occupation

Hon. W. McCormack.]

2006 Land Acts (Review of Cattle [ASSEMBLY.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill.

lic~nscs. It \Vot!ld bo unjust if the full rent were maintained on the occupation licenses and u reduction made on the adjoining leaseholds, and I propose in Committee to ask for power to enable the Minister io deal wiih occupction licenses and save the necessity of cancelling- the present licenses ana i"uin;.; fresh ones. The rent of the leaseholds-adjoining- will be fixed by the Land Court, and the MiniBtcr will take that fixation as the value of the adjoining occupatioh lic<>m•,s. The whole of the cattle country, both tlw leasehold and occupation licenses, will lJe brought to the same rental.

I do not think that I can add any more to rn.'' remarks. I am anxious to get the Bill ihnmg-h. There are no controversial matters in it and every hou. membc··· will admit that so1ne rdiL1 f nn1st lle given to tho "Cattlt•mcn who cannot sP!l their stock.

0PFOSITIO~ ME~fBER'l: Hear, hear !

The SECRETAHY FOR P'CBLIC LANDS: The nect''sity for the Bill is a co<llpelling ono. I han' already been affording relief ·by extending the period for payment of the :rent as long- as possible. The liability for that form of relief is eventually carried bv the holding, and sooner or la tor the leaseholder will have to find the whole of the rental. The proposal to have one member of the Land ·Court sitting ;,s a Cnurt without appeal 1s founded on the necessity for despatch. The principle under le ing the Bill is to give relief and not to give advoc2,tes the opportunitv of appearing· before the courts to fight as to' the amount of the reduction. The Court will be able tD decide the reduction v;ithout the parties paying advocate;3 to appear for thmn. "The: position i:;, a critical oneJ us the rents that were fixed during the boom twriod arc too high and the Court will act accordingly. An appeal from one member to tbG Full 'Court is not necessary on a question like this, becauw the \vholc principle embodied in the Dill is one of concession. The matter \vill h<' dealt- with by one member of the Land Court. He h~s all information as to the state of the market. the carrying capac1ty of the land, and the rent. The main thinfi that he will have to consider is the state of the meat market. The rentals of '"omo holdings will be con-

siclerablv reduced. I make bol-d [5 p.m.] to say that the Court will reduce

all the rents fLxed during the boom period. The rents fixed during- the last mo'1th or two will probablv not be disturbed. c'l.s \Yill bo discovcre~i if you look over the list of decisions in the Land Court records that have recently been rnade, the Court has taken this matter into consideration and there has been no hardship.

Mr. PETERSOX: \Vhat about those cases that came nn last vear? Will they g-et the benefit of this ~'I. et?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAND'S: .Every leasehold usert mainly for cattle will J.1ave the chance of coming before the Court.

Mr. PETERSON: You mentioned some that had been assessed last vear. Were not their ronts fixed on a basis'" of compa.rison with what others were paying? Would not that be a hardship on thun '!

'I'h'" SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: >V<> would have w leave that to the Court. 'Those people fixed up, say, twelve months

[Hon. W. McCormack.

ago. would have the right to go to the Court.

Mr. JI.100RE: The Bill says that the conditions shall not apply to any holding ayop!ied for as a pastoral holding or selected os a grazing selection after 30th June, 1921.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::-JDS: That is ,o.

M1·. l\IoORE: Some have had their rcnta rpmdrupled since then.

Thn SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: lt is no us" sending- them back to the Court \\hen they have been dealt with quit0 receEtly cinring the slump period. I ehall read to hon. members the rcll1arks of the Land Court, as the 'luestion has been raised, to show tha.t the slump period has been tabm into consider'ltion. J\lr. Justice O'Sullivan says-

" Tho n1ain contention put fon .. vard on behalf of the appellants was that the present depresood conditions of the cattle industn-, and the small hope of an improy~'n1ent, \varrunt,t;d a subst<.Jntial re-duction of the rent determined afresh by the Land Court. The fact that P.eighbouring grazing selections had recently been surrendcH~d was u~cd as evidence that the existing depression in the industn· had reduced the demand for, and ,:[t!uo of lands deYoted to, the gra.zing of cattle."

That gives -an illustration that the Judg-e dealing with those appeals on the Appeal Com·t took into consideration the cxbtlng conditions.

Mr. :VIoonE: But the Judge was iixing- a rent for seven or ten years. If he h"d been fixing it for five years, it probably would have boon lig-hter.

Tlw SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC LAl'iDS: The Judg-e says further-

" VITe have givf'n full consideration to the 0\"idencc to the conditions prevailing during the Part of the ·U::·'·essment r--~riod already expired. and to the present condition and prospects of the cattle industry."

'That quotation proyes that there i' little nPed fo;· resubmitting to the Court leases dealt \vith during- the slump period. vYe will allow them to be submitted to the Court, but the Court will probably not interfere w11h the amount fixed.

:c\f r. DELL: It was fixed for a certain period, for which there will not be a recovery.

The SECOHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: As a matter of fact, tbf' seven or ton~year period rents fixed since 1921 "'ould have an adsantago O\rer the rents fixed in th8 slnmp pt:·riod, ns tho price of cattle ma.'. in1prove in the HlUlntiine. 'l,ho\- are fixed for a certain neriod, and you cannot have it both \\,~vs. If Your lcaso \\"US a~"c~c;;;sed since the siu!np and, g-iYen the advantage out];ncd by the ,Judge in these cases ,,-hen all th•.>e things \Vere considered, you lVould have a ten-~ ear period. which would go from 1922 to 1932, and you would not be ree 'SCosed during that period.

Mr. :YIOORE : Not nece,garily.

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Yes, because if the period was ma.d~ up to 1926, provision is made in the Bill that they may go on for the full period. You would go before the Court and would be

Land Acts (Review of Cattle [26 OCTOBER.] Holding Re"ts), Et"., Bill. 2007

""sessed in the vear 1926 on the better conditions, whereaS" anybodv who has a!rendv hod his rent fixed during the slump rwrio~l WJll have his whole period to go uncle"' those

"Conditions.

Mr. MoORE: That will not reduce the rent to :tnything like it would be under a fiYe-year period.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: I do not know whether it would or not. I do not propose to dictate to the Com·t what rent it should flx. The wh<Jlo argurru:•>t ~urrounding- this question of repudi~tion is mtederence on the part of the Stn te. yet hon. members opposite suggest that wo &hould inleden> in the conduct of the Court.

Mr. MooRE: :\"o, I am suggesting that if n Judge fixed tho rent for a five-year period m a slump he woulrl flx the rent lowe1· than kr a ten-year period during which there would be a better chance of recovery.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: "The main idea behind the Bill is to deal with properties that had their rent' fixed dm·in~ boom perio?s. 'Chat is the only justillcatio~ for the Bul. and 1t would not have been introduced othcrwi"<e.

Mr. MOORE: \Yhy not hn-e them all reassessed?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: I am not going to argue that point.

Mr. PETERfiO!>i: It would be fairer if that •sore done, and it \Vould give univcLJa] eal:isfaction.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It seerns to mo that jt would be a sttggPstion to the Court that it did not knm,, its busine·'S. It would not be j ustifwd. :Messrs. Hc!l'dacre and Shannon, of the Land Court Sittings Appca~ Court, have definitely stated in th~ir recent de~isions extending b·ack thl"Oug-h th·' slump penod that they took into consideration the lack nf ma.rkets mHl other matter·"··

Mr. PETERSOx: In the Leiohhardt "district S!Jill8 rents have beer~ increased to five~ tirnes their previous figure. Give them a chance !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: "Those increases may have been bc"etl on the carrying capacits of the land. The rents rnu.y have been too low prior to the incrC[!S8. The lack of markets was taken into considcrat~cn. Those officials have Baid that, etnd I ·cannot TO beyond the1r statement. It lS "

:matter upon which I have an open mind. liir. MOORE: \Yhy not give them the choice?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: The:,· will haYe a ehnncc. I have an open mind upon the subject. I am rather cardul about stating that tlm Court does not know its husinos'. I say, _,·ith all dcfcrPnco to the Court. that it ,,-ill giYe the relief ,,-e expect it ~will give. but I am going to leave it 'entirely 1 o the Court. I am not going to suggest that we should influence it in anv wa:. I am ,m·e that it "·ill gi.-e full -consideration to the appraiscments rr·-:ently m a de, but it Y.'Ould bo rather an insult t;, the intelligence of the members of thr· Land Court to make anj suggestions in the n1atter.

Mr. PETERSON: The Couri; said rcc,·ntlv ihat it had to bo guided by adjoining rcr:ts:

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: 'I'ho Court has full power to take into consideration markets and other factors. This Bill does not give it any greater power, €xcept by definitely stating that these factors

shall bo considered. It is well known that the Court has that power at the present time. In Committee, I propose to move the amendnwnt that I lw Ye indicated to include occupation licenses, and I think we can go into Committee this evening and get the Bill through. I beg to moyc-

" That the Bill be now read a second time."

:Mr. MOORE (A uuigny): 1 am plccsed to see that this Bill has been introduced, as it is an absolute necr·ssitv. vVe ha\e the GoYernrncnt recognising ~in connection ''~ith leasehold country that the present market conditions necr·s~itate a l'C'duction in the 1·entals and we have the Treasurer on the same day bringing in a Land Tax Act Amendment Bill impocing a super tax on exactlY the s.1me c-lass of ncoople on similar counh:v which is being us~cd for a similar purpos~c, but which h>;ppens to b" frc~hold. It seems rathet· rcmar.<able that the distress should be recognioed in connection with one section of the industry, and not recogmsed m connection with another section. I cannot agree with the claim. of the Minister ~hat in regard to the holdmgs reappraisPd smcn 1921, the position obtaining to-day hcs been recognised b;,· the Land Court, and that a lower rental has been fixed accordingly. \Vhile the Court mav have taken into con~ oideration some aspects of the case, the Court would also take into consideration th,, rental of adjoining holdings that had been reappraised, and would fix a rental at a rate somewhere in the vicinit.cr of the rental pard by the adjoining holdings, otherwise an unfair position would arise. X thtrall;.:. when the l\Iini:stcr brings in a Bill recognis1ng tho slump conditions and ptovides special conditions for the f1xing of renh over a certam dPfinite period. without saying- that the Government are interfering with the Court at all thev arc outlining tt policy 'vhich they ex]JOot the Court to follow. The.; s>ty that for a certain period they expect the Court to fix ren tals that will not be uEj ust. and which will enable these people to recover their position. \Yhen the judge of the Court recognise' that he is fixing- the rent for a certain df.finitc slump pr~riod, \vhich }:;; retrospective for eighteen months, it will. make all the difference in the rental he ftxos. If he is fixing the rental for a ten-year period, he ,vilJ probably anticipte th ·t ihe market will recm·er before !hat period expires, and possiblv fix a higher rental. Tho-.e lessees whose ·holdings have been reappraised since 1921 should havo the right to approach the Court so that the rentals of their holdings will he fixed on the samo basis as those of other cattle-holdc:<. If it is only going to affect a ver.:" few holdings, it is not going to affect a vital principle of the Bill. and it will be something if we can only get an amendment leaving it to the discro1ion of the Minister to say that, if a holding is fixed at a low rental. the holder of the adjoining lPaso, taken up since ,June, 1921. shall have an oppodunity of going to the Land Court and getting his holding rcapptaiscd.

The Bill pro.-ides that the Court shall take into consideration the advantageous situati?n of the holding- in relation to markets for Its cattle and other products. It is quite possible that certain abnormal conditions mav exist, such as "\Ye have experienced during the last few months when the Svdner market has been available to some few· holdings. If that condition obtained just at the time the

Mr. Moore.]

2008 Land Acts (Review of Cattle [ASSEl\1BL Y.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill.

Court is fixing the rent, it may make a very considerable difference in the reutal fixed.

Mr. CoLLINS : V\'hat do vou consider a fair price for a bullock?

0

Mr. MOORE : A great deal depends on the age of the bullock. I do not think it possible for anyone to raioc a bullock to a selling age under 25s. per 100 lb. The cost of production varies gmatly according to tho class of country and the rental paid. Unde,· abnormal conditions, the marketing conditions may appear favourable in some instances. During- the last few months lessees in the Charleville district who were successful in securing trucks to get their stock to market were able to get good prices at Sydney; and possiblv under these concli· tions thev mav have i.heir rents fixetl at prices considel:·ablv hig-hor than otherwise would have been the ca~se.

It must also be rem em be red that a large number of lessef' 1l are consiJerably in arrears. The Minister said that the desire shown by the Government to recognise the conditions in the industry would encourage financial institutions to share in the losses and carrv on these people for a pc-' iod. I do n~t altogether share that view. I have never found that financial institutions wore actuated by sentimen1. It i.-' purely a matter of busmess with them, and merdv because the Government recognise the po::i'ition and reduce the rent for n cc r·tain period, that is not going to rnakc the financial jnstjtutions an~,~ n10l'C liberal as rer;s·ards Jlnding monPv to carry on the o peoplE,. It m a v be found· d••·,irablc for these people to bori·ow moncv to carr.; them on, and in son1c cast"~ thPY wiil have to hoJ70'IV to pav thPir arrears u( rent bec!'use th<" Bill provides that the•· must pa): their arrears before thev can take advantage of the Act; and that bemg so thev must han1 son1o securit:,~ as to what the n_:nt is going to be after the ftve-yoar period is over. It IS quite possible that after the iivo-vear period the rents may be considet:a blv increased. \Ye do not kno"· what thev vc·iil be. and it was found in 1905 that {t v.as abwlut•ly essential that the borrow~r and letodor should know cxactlv the co·1ditions on which the rent would b~ fi~ccl. "in mdcr to 0nable the lcs~('C'"' to -ccure' ;;;uffi.C'iC'nt mono:- to can·:; on. If them is a likdihoocl ~hat the rent \riil be fixed 200 pN ,oe·,t. or 600 per cent. h1ghcr than it \Vas in the ~Jump pcrjod, it is going 1o alter considerab], the value of the security on which tho rr1one~~ is lent.

I think that probably it will be found necessary-in 111y _opinion, it will be necessary --that some proviston should be put into the Drll to say to what extent the rent is to be ra1sed after the stipulatocl period, so as to enable these people to secure financial accom. modation to carry them on. As the Minister ~md, cattle are absolute!;~· unsaleablo-thPrP ts no market at all for them. It is no use saying they are worth £2 or £1 a he<1dyou could not give. them away; there is no market for them m a great part of the ~tato. That means that all the people holdn;tg st.ah"!ns have to be carried on by financml mstitutwns. It is no use expecting financial institutions to carry on these people merely because the Government show svm· pathy. They will want definite security to mduce them to advance a. sufficient amount of mono.\ ;to crtrry them on.

Mr. COLLixS: vVhy not get them to reduce their rate of interest?

[.Mr. JYloore.

Mr. MOORE : If the hon. member for Bow en considers that it is going to assist the development of this country .and lead to the introduction of capital here by saying that the rate of interest should be reduced, he is mistaken. I think the position will be worse than the position we are in to-day. It is quite easy for the Government to try such a suggestion, but I am satisfied what the result will be. My experience has been that financial institutions do not work on sympathy--they work on security. 'l'he manager of a bank is not working on his own money but on the money of the depositors and shareholders-and he has to sec that he advances that money in a way that is secure.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA:c-;-Ds : But they get into a position where they have to go Dl1.

Mr. MOORE: They do, but they take every precaution to get as good a security as they possibly can. It has been a marvel to me how a large number of the cattle-owners have carried on at all, and now that we have a drought which is necessitating in many cases a large expenditure of money to keep their stock aliv2, it will be essential to put a provision in the Bill to !imi t to some extent the rents to be imposed after the Jive years .ue over, so as to enable them to get money to carry on. They will have to get financial institutions to advance the money to pay the rent. Some of these people may haYe credit balances in the banks, but so far as I know most of them have big over· drafts, largely owing in many cases to cattle being bought at rather a high price, and since the cattle slump they have no assets at all to speak of.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : rhey are not all in that position.

Mr. :MOO RE: They .are not all in that position; if the:v were. the position would be hopclcs·'· To enable these people to recover they will have to have something more definite than a reduction of rent for a Jiveyear period. There will have to be some guarantee giYen as to what the increase of rc•nt is likely to be at the end of that period. Th:' financial institutions who haYe to lend mone,, to carry those people on and to pay the rent even at the reduced rate. will want to see the security they have g·ot and \Yhether they arc justified in lending them sufficient money to carry on beyond the Jive-year period. \V c tlo not know how long the slump is going to continue. It may stop in eighteen months O\Ying to the organisation \vhich is taking place; but from the present appearances in Europe and the tin1e it is likelv to take for those countries to recover and

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be in a position to buv meat from Australia, it does not seem tu me that it is going to be over in a year. It is more likely to take some considerable time. \Ve mav be able to alleviate that by efficient org"anisation, but we arc not likeiv to have such an improvement that the rent can be raised to anv extent for a considerable time after this ii;o.year period. I am pleased to. hoar the Minister say that he has an open mind and is prepared to accept amendments which are absolutely essential.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I have· not an open mind in regard to extending the Bill beyond 1926.

Mr. MOORE: I do not expect the Minister to extend the Bill, which is brought in for a

Land Acts (Rev;ew of Cattle [26 OCTOBER.] Holding Rmts), Etc., Bill. 2009

definite period, but it is quite impossible to say what the rent should be after that.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You do not want us to make another mistake like we made in 1905.

Mr. MOOHE: The country would have been abandoned for years and years if it had not been for what the Government to-da.y call a mistake. Hon. members opposite at the time that Act was brought in said that it was absolutely essential, and that the industry could not be carried on unless that provision was put in.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There was no j ustifica.tion for it.

Mr. MOOHE: It is all very fine to say in 1923 that there was no justification for it in 1905; but tho Government at that time would not have brought it in unless there was a justification for it. It was done to enable the people to secure money with which to stock up, otherwise they could not have done it.

The SF:CRETARY FOR PuBLic LANDS : You know it is a mistake now.

Mr. :i\IOORE: No. I think it was the only thing that saved the pastoral industry_ The other States were not in the condition that Queensland was in at that time, and they had not the same class of country. There is far more freehold in the other States on which they can secure money than there is in Quennsland. This is the only Shtte with a vast amount of leasehold country belonging to the Crown.

The SECRETARY FOR PLTBLIC LANDS : Yes, and they get country h:ore for a quarter of what they do in New South Wales.

::\Ir. MOO RE: Of course they do. The SEC'HETARY FOR PrnLrc LAKDS : The

woolgrowers get tho highest price in the world's tnarket.

:\Ir. MOORE: Only since the war. What was the price of wool in 1902 or 1905?

The SEC'ILSTARY FOH Pc:BLIC LAXDS : Queensland wool has been bringing a good price for a long time.

Mr. MOORFi: It has been bringing a good price, but nothing like the price it is bringing to-day. But I am not talking about the pric"' of wool to-day. I am talking about the position these unfortunate people are in, and, if they ha vo to be carried on by financial institutions, wo want to rnakc it possible for them to get suffici<'nt accommodation from those institutions. The Minister roalisoq the position. Ile knows the circumstances of ao large number of theo,o people, because he has personal contact with them. I do not think the Bill goes far enough. There is anotlwr thin::; I am afraid of-that ic" haying no appeal from one judge. I think that the Minister should allow an appeal from the decision of one judge. \Vo know that two members of the Land Court have hold the portfolio of Secretary for Public Lands. Thev come in to con tact with lessees of all sort••, and it is quite possible that the lessee who has a particular grievance does not feel the sam~ confidence in a man with whom he has had a dispute previously, and he would, therefore, like to have the opportunity of going to the Minister.

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : They are much more lenient.

Mr. MOORE: Perhaps they are, but the Minister comes into conflict very often with lessees.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: They are not likely to give a wrong decision.

Mr. MOORE: They may not be likely to give a wrong decision, but a man is likely to be biassed if he has had a dispute and considers that the applicant is a tenant who has been trying to get at the Crown.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : He will be inclined to be more lenient because he has been in the department.

Mr. MOORE: I hope that the Minister will take into consideration the advisability of allowing an appeal. He wants to see that these people arc satisfied and get a fair deal. There is nothing very much in the Bill to dispute about, but I think it ca.n be made more equitable and much better for the people to work under. I hope that, when we go into Committee, the Minister w~ll show himself as reasonable as he has been In connection with other Bills which have come before us and accept amendments which are likely to be for the benefit of the measure.

Mr BELL (l<'assifcrn) : I am sure that all hon. members must feel gratified that the Government have decided to make some recognition of the situation in which the cattle-owner has found himself as a result of thu drou~ht and the slump in cattle prices. The Gov~rnment themselves must realise the unfortunate position of the cattle-owner as tht• rc'-nJlt of seasonal conditions and market

fluctuations. In recent years he [5.30 p.m.] has been in a very bad way

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indeed and it has been impossible to make cattle properties pay. They probably will pay 1n time, if the Minister does not pnt up their rents too :n::ueh. If ~ome rPcognition is not given to the situation, the pastoral lessees and gr"'zif!g farmers \vill be compcllcrl to abandon thmr country to the prick!> -pear and dingoe.; and other pe,ts. At a deputai ion on the 13th of last month to the PrPmier. the Secretary for l'ublic Lands, and the Secretary for Agriculture, it was suggested that an amendm~n~ of the Land Ad should be made on Simtlar linos to section 46 of the Land Tax Act, \vhich would hrwo giYen the Minister pow.er to deal with rents in cases where the mer1ts justifi0d him in doing so, but thcl :!\Iinister 2ecmed very reluctant to accept the suggestion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Do you not agree wi ih me?

:VIr" BELL: I think the hon. gentleman was probably quite ri::;ht.

The SECRETARY FOH Pc:BLTC LA>rDS : I would hrwe been the whole Court.

J\Ir. BELL: It has been recognised that son1o con~,ideration is necessary, but I '\vould like to point ont that the Land Court will h tve power onlv to deal with a period of ftve voars from "30th .June, 1921. The leases of some of these cattle properties have only three or four vcan to run. and I think the Court should 'have power. to Pxtend those periods for the special period of fiye years. The Court also is to take into consideration the value already placed on the adjoining holding, and, although I recognise that there is no way of dictating to the Land Court .. I think it should deal with each case on tts merits.

Mr. Bell.]


As the Minister pointed out, this Bill is not a ~olution of the difficulty in which the cattle-owner finds himself; but I would like to quote a few figures to show that the rent of cattle properties does bear a considerable proportion to the cost of production. Take a station in the northern part of the State. The expenses amount to £1,156 18s. 10d., and the rf'ntal to £358 5s. 10d., or a percentage of 30.68. On another station in the southern portion of the State, the expenses are £3,091 148. 4d., and the rental £721, or a percentage of 23.32. Hon. members will see that in those_ cases the rental does bear a very fair relatwn to the total cost of production.

I '_lm very pleased to know that the Minister mtepds to amend the Bill by including occupatwn 11c0nse country. I think it very nece,sary t:hat occupation license country ~1sed oxclus1vely for cattle-raising should be mcludc•d, and I would like to see the lessee have the right to appeal from the decision of ono member of the Land Conrt to the Land Appeal Court.

Memb_ers on the Government side at times have. sa1d a good deal about the profitc of grazmg farmers and pastoral lessees, although lately thov haYe had the experience of the State stu.twm 1o prove that they pass through penods of losses. Probably some Crown leaseholders have at times made money, but they have _also had heavy expenses-big ships requu:e big sails. I know that our own expcnonco of the 1902 drought was verv mofortunate. Before the drought we ha-d 17.000 cattle, and after the drought we had o~ly 70Q; so that OL!l' herd vcas practicallv Wiped rlght out. vVe had again to stock up a1though we had practically no income, and hm~d~'eds of leaseholders "ore in the same poeitJOn. I hope that the Bill will pass with the amendment, which have been suggc,sted.

Mr. CORSER (Burnctt): This Bill will certainly afford a meamro of relief to pastoral. lessees. and grazing farmers. I was assocwtod w1th the deputation which asked the Gov~rnmont for some relief for the cattleowners m the shape of a. right to go to the ~and Court for a reductwn of 50 per cent. m the rents _of pastoral holdings OI' grazing farm,, and 1t was understood that a Bill would. bn intr?duced making a 50 per cent. reductwn poss1ble. From what I can gather, tlus measur~ does not provide for a 50 per cent. rednc!Jon. It provides for a review of rentals; but on the basis of the rentals as they are. fi~cd to-day, which have been assesee-d m tim_os when cattle wore bringing ~uch better pncos and ca·ttle properties were hkely to be regarded as more valuable. I h_ave h~d personal experience of cattle propertiCs adJacent to a holdin~ of mv own 11hich in 1917 carried rents higher tha-;, that of the one m which I was personally interested. At the recent Land Court, however. the rent of the latter property was increased to a higher ~gure th~n those of the neig-hbouring propcrtJes-showmg that the Land Court v. as e-:cn after the fall in the price of cattle: dFposod to mcreas~ rents to higher figures than had been considered fair in times when ?attle were bringing good prices. I think it IS only fair to say that the Land Court should review the 'Cents from the point of vw;v of the drop m cattle. The general pchcy should have been admitted that the Crown should make an estimate of the value of all c:tttlo properties and then grant to the cattle-owners a 50 per cent. reduction on those figuns. If that were done, we would

[Mr. Bell.

get the relief which the graziers really require. I think that would have been better than the present Bill.

I cannot see that the financial institutions will be of very much greater help to the pastoralists after the Bill is curried, because it does not offer them any greater security than at present. To-day they will not make Dny further advances, because they claim that they have lent too much already on the value of the cattle, and the value of the lease is necessarily reduced proportionately.

If you want to increase the value of that lease so as to enable the holder to obtain an increased advance from a financial institu· tion, 1' t us get down to business and grant an extension of lease as a reward to those grar.iers who during the time of stress were compelled to sock financial aid. Then w·e wnuld be doing something to bring about a gTe<tt benefit to the State. If wo granted an rxtension of lease to holders of land used for other than agricultural purposes there would be an increased value to the lessee without any cost to the State. On thP greater value of the lease the financial institutions woul::l make a greater advance, and with thd money more employment would be crcatod and utilised in increasing the value of the lease or grazing farm. If we want to give any concessions to the leaseholders we can do it by giving an extension of their lease as a reward, and they will then be ab!o to ohhin concessions from financial institutions. It appears to me thnt in approach· ing- the Court we are approachinp: a tribunal that adjudicates on set lines. The Minister states that the rents will he assessed on the ~ urying capacity of the holding. That 1s a wrong promise on which to start, lwcause the carrying capacity is generally hken as moaning the number of cattle that can be carried on a selection, and we fmd that most of our stockowners in Queensland a.ro lo-day carrying too many stock, probably owing to the fact that they cannot sell their slock They aro probably overstocked becnuco the hig-h rents compel them to do so. That is to the detriment of the best interests of tlw State. It is wrong to do anything that will compel the stockowners to carry too many stock on their holdings. It is an unsonnd principle to adopt to fix the rent on the number of cattle carried on a holding. That is more likolv to increase the number of cattle on a holding and increase the tronblP'\ and dangers of the pastoral industry, and the Land Conrt and the department should discourag·e that sort of thing. In 'tll {\1Fos bofon· the Land Appeal Court thfl department will go with all its officers and dcfr,nd the rental that has been fixed, and in sorne cases \Yill endeavour to incrca::te it, and all along· the lino they are doing great damag-,• to lhc State bv compelling the lesJCC's throug-h their action to overstock their holdings, ca{;sing no end of trouble in time vi drought. It is only natural that people will overstock when thev cannot unload their stock on anv market. Then the Land Court conlPS along and says, " Your carrying capacity is so and so." They are asked " How many head of cattle are you carrying," and that is gi-ven in evidence against lhem and their rcntals are fix'd accordingly.

Mr HARTLEY: If the holding can ca):ry that number why should it not?

Mr. GORSER: It c»nnot carr" it. That is the trouble, and when there is a drought

Land Acts (Review of Cattle [26 OCTOBER.] Holding Ren19), Etc., Bill. 201 I

the cattl" must die. Because the cattle are there that is not to. say that the holding is carrying the cattle satisfactorily. If the holder does carry that number and there is

short:'lg·P of rain he must lose a certain number. The Government shc,uld not make it neces,ary for him to stock up still further by estimating the carrying capacity at the number that he has to carr}' during periods of stress. ThP Minister claims a rent is fair when it is fixed on the basis of the carrying capacity of the holding. That is a wrong basis of assessment. The officials of the depgrtmcnt should supply a report as to the quality of the land and what class of grazing conntr:· it is, and the department should be abl<; to iudge for itself from the experience f"ained from its rangers and officials what should be a fair rental. The leaseholders are to hr allowed now to ask for a reduction in the rental, which will be asses ,cd on the old system, and the rent will be fixed on the valuation submitted by assessing rangers. Th•, asspssing rang·er may go from the Gulf or the Central district to a district in South'-"c··t Queensland where he has never been lwfmc. and in rm hour or two he is supposed t-o be able to give the valuation of a pastoral 'bloci< or a grazing selection. He then gives hi,, l'rofossional knowledge as evidenc<>. and on that <>vidonce the Land Court will decide an application for a reduction in rent. There shoul·d be a fair report sent in. and it should be based on th0 practical knowledge of wmeone in the di .. trict. The old SY.Jtem of obtaining n valuation f1~om thB local rangers in the district through the local land agent's offic,• is better than the system of having outside as:;;:e,Qsing· rangers.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC LAXDS : \Vhv ·did your Government do it? '

Mr .. GORSER: \\'e did not provide for ades~Ing rangers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: You did.

Mr. CORSER: Not on grazing farms. 'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS : You

took the average carrying capacity as the b:1US,

::Yh. CORSER: No. Past Governments proYided that local rangers who know their own di;tricts were to assess the value for thu Land Court. The pr sent Government have adopted the <s~ _,tmn of appointing special ~; 4o;;~._ssing rangers, who go to all parts of Quemslancl. I have had them up in the Burnott district, and thev had not boon th('ro pr0viously c 1;cn as -.:isitors. They go out to a block in a n1otor-car or ride ont, .111d J)("'P in here and peep in there, and they conF~ back as even greater autboritH·F- 1·n the value of the land than the owner himself. They arc authorities on the carrying capacity, the rainfall of the district, and on particular grasses that they may have nev0r seen before, and they do not know the true value of the timber grown in the district compared with the value of timber grown a thousand miles away.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : You \ven? bcat•"n in that case.

:Yir. CORSER: I wa-; not. I had to defend myself. and I defeated the assessing rangers ·on their values at the Land Appeal Court in Brisbane. I was able to come to Brishane and def0nd mvself against the assessing ranger and the Crown. ancl I have some right to -express the knowledge that I have gained in

the interests of the unfortunate settlers who ean.1of, get down to Brisbane personally to rldencl lhemoclves before the Land Court against the Crown.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC LAClDS : You were the unfortunate settler.

Mr. CORSER: I was not unfortunate. hecaus8 I was able to defeat the assec,sing ranger at the Land Appeal Court. He only had " very slight knowlcdg·c of the country, but he sent in a report in the same way as reports arc sent in to the Land Court in the various districts concerning the different grazing farms. It would be far better to have a report through the local land agent's officE' whc're all the information could be compiled from year to year. and the local land agent coulcl then assess the values in the different portions of the district.

Mr. HARTLEY: You are quite hopeless.

Mr. CORSER: ThP hon. gentleman is quite hopeless. I would like to see him on a grazing fann. If the hon. mcn1ber had any kno\Ylcrlgc of the industr:T ho would endorse what I say. It is essential that this Bill should be introduced. vV e •vcrc hoping that the Bill woulcl provi-de for a :.>:C'nera! 50 per cent. reduction of rents in all cases. The Priekl~·-pcar Land Bill makes proYision for an increase in the obligations o.f the lessees. vVP hope that this Bi!l will carry •mt ',Yhat the ::\[inistcr was auite in earnest D bout when he promised the 'deputation that \Yaitcd on hjn1. ancl 1nnko provision for a 50 per rent. reduction.

Tht' SECHET.\RV. FOR Pt:BLJC LAClDS: I did not make that promi.-:e.

Mr CORSKR: I hone that the 1\linister \\ill brlno- r~ll thos0 \Ylio ha,~f' bcvom~ se]f'C'~ t Jrs since~ 1921 within the st '"w of the Bill eo that. notwithstancling the fact that the•· h1Ye ho·rl tl1Pir rC'nh nx0d bv tho Court sin<"e 1921, thPy ,,.jlJ haYe the" opportunity of ha .-i ng their rents reYised. I hor" that th0 rrnts \vi1l be rcvic\vcd from a more Ienion1 roint 0£ vie\V than th•· can~ying· CJpacity and the Governm:nt policy. \Ve ehoull1 · cot a\Yay fron1 thc idea that -..ve .hould keep our' boot on the neck of the man \Yho i" a gr~,zlr-r. Many gr:1ziPrs are sma1l mc·n- \Yith sn1all intcre3t'i. J\lany .are also intrrc~icd in compnnicG which, as a rule. •ro not ('0111nos::-d uf one n1nn. T am plonscd

tc, learn +hat the Mini·ter intends . .,-hen the Bill is lwfore tlw Committee, to include

ithin its ":->O'l8 a QTicultnral lc·1 "·C~. as the 0\YnC'r of thnt forn1 of lew<~J i~ the onJy one that is not inclndPd in it. I hope that the Bill will ~.cive relief that the Jl[iniBtcr ilO]'ll'F it will. ..

Mr. PETERSO:'\ (Tormrrnb!f): I •mnld l;J;:c to lenn from the Mini,ter 'whether he intimater! 1w interjection that there is no proyision in the: Bill to ?ive the. soh•ctors who have had th01r rents rc-apprmsccl clurin~· the la't two years the ri?ht to obtrtin Telief. I hrtw lool~ed verv carefnll.v through I he Bill. and I cannot seeo anv s:1ccifie clause which denicc, this class of selector the right (o f!Ct relief. The rents of man,- of the ?ettlPrs in the Central district have been qnadrupled, and even raised higher than that.

The Sr:CRFTAHY FOR PT:BLIC L.\XDS: I cannot o·iyc them relief: but theY will have th0 ;ight to go to the Lancl Court. T take it that the hon. member refers to land that bas been selected since 1921.

Mr. Petcrson.]


Mr. PETERSON: That will bo very good news for those people in the Contra! dist"Ict. The tim8 is very ri pc for the introduction of the Bill. It is jnst as well that it is not to b,, among the " slaughtered innocent,," because many of the selectors ;n mv district arn on the~ verge of ruination. 'I do not know how they g<'t along, as they are unable t,o ~J"Ot any increasb in their overdrafts, and they cannot pay their rents or the penalties. The Bill will give them new hope, and it will help the industry to become re-established in the position it held before the breakdown of the pricP" of c ,tttle. I intend to support the Bill in the main.

Mr. VOWLES (Drtlby): I was rather hopeful when this icgislation was foreshadowed that some practical result would come from it. I am rather inclined to come to the conclusion, as tho re,,ult of ct,rtain statements made by. the :Minister this afternoon, that no good will result from it, and that the hon. gentleman hedged when he said ho was not going to dictate to the Land Court. The Court has alreadv stated that it has taken into considcrat{on in JnanY of its re-deterrninations the drou<'ht conditions which have exioted in the pas'L I am beginlUng .to v·onde.r \vhcthcr there i~ any business m the Bill or whethet· it is not part of a make-bohcvo and propaganda to put the Gov0rnmcnt in a better position with the London financiers than thr·v are in to-day. Parliamnnt is not going 'to give a direction to the Court .as to -what \YO con sidor should be the basis of red0trrmination £or ~ho future. If it do'"' not do so we arc nDt arting on a right ba~i·: '

)Jr. TIARTLEY: What rlo c-on think should be- the basis of redetermination?

Mr. VO\YLES: PMliamant should gi·rc a dtrectJOn. Tho J\lini<ter. at the same tin10 a~ he introduces thi;:> lcgi:dation, tells ns that the Court has ruado a JH·onou!rccn1ent that it has takPn tbc::;e n1attcr~ illto con:-:idcration as a fartor rn dotonnining, rent:::.

The SECRET.\RY FOH PT;BLIC LAXDS: TJ. .t it-i, on son1o of the holdings. In sonH' cases the roLts Wf'l'C assrssed much less than the preYious decision.

:'Ill'. CoHSER: Vr ry few.

.IYlr. VOIYLES: Any <·ne who i.J acqualntod with the Land Court kno\\, tho basio that the Court ctdoptcd to bring· a! out uaiformitv. It apparontlc· thinks that, if an injustice \\-a6 done to onc n1a11 in the bc()'innino- 0vcrv <?th.'r n1an mu:Jt. suffer the ~an1o i~justic€ 111 orcL'r to bnng about uniforn1ih'. I know of C<Lscs where a nlPlnbcr of thn :court was a1,kcd by the Connnissioncr \Yho was in charge of the procPc:dings, to deterrnine t~e rental of a grazi•1g fann on the san:e lmrs as the rental was determined for the ·,uljoinin;; C'<Ynntry. )Jo evidence \Yas placed br:for0 the Court r:s to the basi' on which the other rental was fixed, but tho Commissioner said, " You have a map shovving \Yhat tho adjoining country is being ar"~essecl at." Ho had the temerity to ask the Court to take into consideration the evidence it had before it as to the adjoining country. and assess thB rental of the grazing farm at the same rental va.iue as the adjoinin" country. I hoped that a good deal of rrliPf would he gi,·on under this moas•no. 1 thought that, when a deputation went !o the Minister) consideration \vas to be givcm

·[Mr. Petcrson.

not only with respect to an alteration in the rcntals but also to that part of the Land' Act which provided that for the fnture in determining rents the 50 per cent. increase to which we have been accustomed in the past should not be considered. I would like to seo those principles considered, because cattle-owners hnv0 no market, and the Government haYe been exploiting the CrowH tenants merely because during the drought period l t has been necessary to have ~ome land to run their cattle on. The Govern:nor.t took advantage of that fact to raise !he rents of pastoral holdings, gra?Oing farms, and, more so, on occupation licenses. I kno" cases where men have been compelled to pav two or three times the rental that theY had been accustomed to pay for occupation licenses. The lcgislati'ln is desirable and I hope that the Government will make a good job of it.

;\1r. TA YLOR (TV·indsor) : I think that hon. members generally are in accord with the proposals embodied in tnis Bill. We have heard a great deal during the la't m<mth

or two of the tremendous diffi[7 p.m.] culties that cattlemen are experi-

encing-not Ro much fron1 tho prc,-ailing drv conditions, but more on account of the" failure to find a satisfac!ory morket for their cattle. It has been realised bc- tho Government that it is only ri[\"ht and pnper that the:;- should give the cat:lemen ns,.!stnnce during these Yery strenuous t,imF:,,, oEd that thcv should afford them a certam amount of relief.

As the Minister pointed out in his rcma.rks, he does not e:qwct the Bill, nor do we. to t•ut the cattle indmtrv on a sound footing. '!'hat is going to take a long time. Still,. when a nu1n's bu~illt"r.,, is at a Yory low ebb it is surpr~:-:ing what a \Vondcrful assi~tance it is to have a little financial support or rdiof. rtncl how this helps a. man t.o hang 011. It is merch a case at present of hanging on nntil such tirno as thoro i~ an ilTIJll'<•Vl'·

u~0nt in trade co11dition..s. gon~rning the iudnstrv. Cnfortunatcly \Ve han.~ not yc't

ou;· e:attle into the Victorian markets, it i~ plcusing to know that probably

2.000 cattle a week are going ovr'r the border through \Vallangarra to I\ow Sonth \V,dc•s Pnd arc mc0tin~ \ViLh a favourable rr1u:rket. This is helping the cattlemen to some extent. 1 should haYo liked to see something. in tbe 1~ill f:trrtillq,- that, \vllen a rc::t.~)}'H·arsr:n1ont t kcs place. there should be some lim!t to it. l and a good many other::.: would ha YC pre~ \1 rrod a repeal of the 1920 amending Act. There has been a good deal of concrnYers_,. in rf'gan.1 to that _._!\et. 6ono tL'nning it repudiation a11d others denying that it wa rc•pudiation. It c~Lnnot be gain'·rricl. ho\1 O\ C'r, that there has been n consider<.< blo an1ouTtt of fc·eling on ihe matter, and I think it \HJU!cl haYe b0en a wise thing had the Gm-crnment (:ccid0d to repeal it.

This Bill is brought in to aiTord >'lmE rdiof to the cattlemen, a.nd I weicomo it. The Oppr')ition will submit a fC'\\. ;unc·r<lments, and I hope the Minister ·:;ill accept thC'm. I think this is a tin1e \Yhcn the Government should be generous in their altitude towards the cattle industry. \Vo hardly know what would havo b?en the position of Queeneland 1f the sheep mdustry had been suffering similarly to the cattle industry. Next \Ve·ok-I think on Tuesdaywe shali have the commencement of the wool 'ales, which will mean £1,250,~00 to

Land Acts (Review of Cattle [2G OcTOBER.] :Holding Rents), Etc., Bill. 2013

£1,500,000 beiJ<,g re~liscd. The high price; that have lwcn rccewed fo1· wool have ]>een <Jf YCry groat fi''"'3istance to this GovernmPr1t ·.I'd tD all Govornmcmts, and we all welcome

the da:· when the crtttle industry will he re-c .,tubhshed on a .;;;ound footing a.nd at3~umo 1 he plac ., it previous!:.· occupied as one of the le<tding industries of Queensland.

1\Ir. DEACO)J' (C·unnin(!ham): There is not much to he s•nd on this Bill, but there an• one Dr two matters on which I "·onld like information. It is provided that the Bill will only apply to those holdinc; that arc nL:mly used for the dopasturing of cattle; but ,r do n.ot see that any provision is made to gn·e rohof in the case of a cattle holdincr that i; also running a certain number of sheep. 1 suppose it is loft to the discretion of the Court to decide whether a k•see has a few more cattle than he hrrs sheep. and ihe man who has a few more sheep than he has cattle will not get any b0nefit. I hope the Government reco~nise th · t the industrv is in a had way, and will realise that othe~· <::attle-mYners should be given similrrr relief. If it is going to be a ~ood thir,g for the Crown lessees. it should be good thing for other cattlo-0WJJO:rs. because thev are suffering the s,me disabilities as the Crown lessees who ore getting relief from the Crown, The Government hav-e onlv introduced thi ., measure because thov fine! them~··lvrs in the position that they cannot collect their mone.'·. I feel sure that if thev wore ab!P to collect thr•i1· mane·. th··v \Yot;ld not bother about this Dill at all. Ir'o\ ·c \'N, thev kno ,. the c .1ttlcn~en. are np ag·ainst it. and th0re lS no pc~~1h1 hty of thPir rCC'OYC'rinrr

their lo:o.:cs; and tht'l:Pforp the GoYcrnmc•r;t are making a Yirtue of noce3siiv and giYing them some relief. ·

There is ono mrrtter I do not CJnitc. undor,,tand. The GoYornmont will not allow the Court to reconsider the rentals in the case of pastoral holdings whose reni·als have been reassessed since 1921. In the case of two adjoining holding.:;, both tu::ed for the san1e r;-rrposc, on0 lcsst)e will bo abl0 to submit his case to the Court, and the other vv-ill not lw allowed to do so. The result will be that Dne lessee will be paying a higher rental than the other. That sort of thing will occnr all over the countrv. That knocks th<• bo!iom out. of thPir arg~<ment in connectio~ ,;v1t~ wl:at IS kno,vn a\ thD "RPpudia.t.ion Aci.. Then· ans-u:nent m regard to that . \et was that simdar countrv- should pay tlw same rental, bu~ under this Bill the cattle-owner will be paving a lower rental than the sheepown?r holding simibr countr·-. The RIIeepowncr will be paying a high rental for t~c f~n.n1e class of country bcc.::u=lsc he is carry1n~ sheep. ·

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LA:-ms: Ho Is 110"\V.

1\Ir. DRACOJ'i': That was ono of the }'tasons . f~r provionsl~· bringin·r in the

Retmd1at1Dn Act." Tho GovPrnm(~nt are creatmg the same situation nndcr this Bill. l want to hea_r the Minister's cxph··,:.tion on the matter. If he. has any to gi.-e. I hope 1l1at.. when othe:: mdustries get inh1 this P()Slbon. they wlll have similar treatmePt. When the cattlemen 'vent into the iudu-trv th~y knew. that. slumps might. occnr They hav!! had bad times and need relief, aud I hope that every other industry "ill receive the same consideration.

The s~cRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA:>!DS : V\'hen rents were high prices wore high.

Mr. DEACO~: I know that. She<'pmen'., r('nts v:cre raisoci ;vhcn prices woro high. An. all rents ?'Oing to follow iho s~,..,_t(, of the market-that i' what it r·o•110s to. Is it going to be the same all round?

The StWRE'rARY FOR PcBLIC LAKDS: Do vou :t.ggest that we should withdraw the Dill'!

Mr. DEACON: ::\ot at all. What I gest is that the Government should similarly with other industries when ~;d int,; the same position.

sngM d0al they

Mr. EDWARDS (,Yc,wnr;o): The sontin:enh cxprC's6e'1 b:v the Minister when he inrroduced the Bill were very refreshing, particular!~~ after the statements 1nade frorr1 the GoYernr:nent bC'nches ~·c,_,terday in connection with the l\Icat IndustrY Encoun.gement Bill. I am satisfir·d. as I think other hon. members are also. that the :\1ini,ter is trying io grapple with the crisis which is Llcing the cattle industr:c in Quepnsland. If the hon. gentlema.n realised how desrwrate i; the position of many of the men in the cattle industrv he would make the Bill ;·ptrospedive. ·u it was fair on the one hand h collect the rents nnder the retrospective systmn. it is equally fair on the other hnnd to make the reduction of l'('nt rci.rosp:~c1 ive. There are rnanv catt1e~owncrs \vho have not made one penny out of their holdings for the last tv.-o or three vcars, and the Government haYO not come to· the rf"scue as soon a'·· the~y shouirl ha.-e done. They have left many of these unfortunate people to strugv,le on under the worst conditions possible until they are p··actica lly down and out. The Govrenment como along "-hen thoy c umot po,ibl:·· collect r(•nts and oficr these people a reduction in 1hei1· rents. I maintain that that shonld l:a\'e been done long ago, before th:> cattle 1~1(1nsh'? got into its present dc<::p< rato con~ clition. It IS a short-eighted 11olicy {or the C:oYernment to extract rents from the cattle ;ndustry or any other industry ir; the Itr;-1xin1nn1 f ":tent. Jf lYe go throug11 the r 'tcle di2tricts at the JH'0sont time \"e c.m ,,,o that impro\'ements have not been carried on:_ like they were in years gone b-:" Tha,t me-ans that ever wne in i.ho Stal-l is suffcri: er on acr:mnt o'! the high rcntals which the ill~}u;;;try ha:; berm a~kccf to pny in tho past and the drought conditions which it has had to go through .

The Minister, "·hen introducing the Bill, said that the Court would ahvavs take the carrying <-apacity into considcrat{on. I hold that no Court could P' ·-,sibly have determined the carrying c:npncit~. of land taken up in 1920 and 1921. br,~ausr the cattlemen in many di:;:tricts achnit thnt the:'\~ have never pa~sed through mch tnubl0somc times as during the la"t few years: and in order to determine the rarry.ing capacity of such country it would have been necc~sary to take into consideration, not only the carrying rapacity in da;vs gmw by, but also during a cycle of years such as those through vvhich we arc passing.

I hold that, if the Government arc sincere, thev wlll not attempt to drain from the pastorcdi~ts of this Sta1 e ever~· penny of rent they can crd out of them: anrl the same thi:.g applies to the rents of small holdings, which are practically on the same basis. If the Government are going to draQ' all they pOo"ibly can out of ihe people in the way of

Mr. Edwards,]

2014 Land Acts (Review Of ('attle [ASSEMBLY.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill.

rents, they cannot expect them to make this State prosperous, as it should be 1f they were getting a lair and square deal and were a~·-,isted in the early stages of settlement.

Question-That the B1ll be now read a second time-put and passed.

COMMITTEE.

(J:fr. F. A. Cooper, Breme1·, in the chair.)

Clause 1-" Short title "-put and passed.

Clause 2-" Application of Act "-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. \V. McCormack, Cai.rns): I move the insertion, on line 11, page 1, after the words

" Division I.," of the words-

" and to occupation licenses held under Division II."

I have a whole list of consequential amendments. They all follow on the decision to include occupation licenses in the B1ll.

Amendment (Mr. AlcCormack) agreed to.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny): I move the omission, on lines 4 to 7, page 2, of the words-

" This Act shall not be applicable to any holding which has been applied for as a pastoral holding, or selected as a selection after the thntwth day of June, one thou'"nd nine hundred and twentyone.''

It is quite possible that tho Land Court, in fixing the rents for the holdtngs .taken up since 1~21,_ did not take. iJJto~corlSlderation the passmg of th" Bill. ihey tixe_d what was considered by them. to be a fan· rent for the full period of tne lea,e, and allowed for the fact that the mdustry was like],. to recunerate before the expn·atiOn of that terrn, U:nd accordjngly fixed the re~t higher than they would have done had tlus Bill been in operatiOn ,1,t the time. If !his Bill had be<'n in operation at the time there 'vould have been some grounds for fixing the rents on a uniform tHt'is. The l~ases that have been t<ckcn up during the last month or two, when the :'11in_ister knew that this Bill was going Jo be mtroduced, would be in a different category. If the persons who tcok up the leases since 1921 find that their rents a re higher thrm the rents that have been reappraised bv the Court under this Bill in conJtedion with land of the same carrying rapacit:v and same conditions of marketing, it is only reasonable that they should have an opportunity of appealing to the Court u_ndee this Bill In exactlv the same wa:v as If they had taken up theie holdings prior to 1921. If in certain districts one property is asse·-sed at a higher rental than an adjoining property when both properties have the_ same ca!rving cajlacit,v, then the person paymg the higher rental vnll alwa' s consid-•r that he is suffering an injus.tic0, and l think that he is. I cannot see that the amendment \Vill do any damage to the Bill. It will onlv enable tho.se individuals who hav,, taken up their hnldings since 1921 to be placed on thE' same footing as those who will be entitled to the benefits of this Bill. Thev will on]? come nnder Jhis Bill for exactly the s~me period as those who took up the land before 1921, and theY will feel that they are on the same footing. I do not think 'that the amendment

[Mr. Edwards.

is going to affect the department to an,v .considerable extent, and l trust the JVllmster will accept it. I have no knowledge of the number of leases that have been taken up· since 1921.

The SECRET\RY FOR Pt:BLlO LAXDS: ~ot many.

Mr. Nl:OORE : If there is only ono, an injustice would be done, anrl I think it wo~ld be better to give that man an opportumty of obtaining the same benefits as hisneighbour.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRl\1A:.J: The amendment moved by the hon. member for Aubigny has for its object the omission of lines 4 to 7. The Minister has an amendment to move on line 4 and another amendment to move on line 5 and if the amendment moved by the hon. ~emher for Aubigny is defeated, the 2\linistor will be preclndoc: from moving his amendments. The amendment. therefore, will he to omit the words on line 4.

::\1!-. TAYLOR (Windsor): There is some· justification for the amendment moved by the hon. member for Aubigny. I think the Minister will admit that the rents that have been fixed for the leases taken up sincE> 1921 were large!;, decided upon the rentals that were> being paid by lessees who took up· land before that time, and ,~,ha are now going. to come under this Bill. There i, no doubt 'Ahatever that there will be a certain amount of friction caused in connection with the matter. I could understand the Minister· refusing to accept the amr•ndmcnt if there was anvthing unreasonable in it The rentals of the "!eases taken up since 1921 must have· been fixed, to a very great extent, ~m the rentals previously fixed for other holdmgs.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAND& (Hon. W. i\fcCorrnack, Gair11s): There are good reasons for not accepting this amendment. In the first place, tho department has fixed the rentals of the now leases <mce the slump Lleriod with due reg:trd to the Pxisting conditions. Secondly, the pPrsonsselecting the land knew the position exactlv as we know it to-dav. There is nothingmisleading in these leases. The persons who selected the land were surrounded by peoplewho were suffering from the depression. Thedepartment knew that when fixing tbe conditions. There is little chance of the new lessees getting relief from the Court. The main argument against them would be that thcv knew of the conditions existing when they took up the land. That argument do''' not apply to people holding leases _or cocupalion licenses before 1921. Then rr>nts had been fixed, and they had no redress. That is the object of the introduction of the Bill. Land is open for settlement at tht' present time and is being taken up for c1ttle purposes. No one can suggest that thesemen are not selecting the land witb. their ov<' open as to the conditions. Another r:'ason for not accepting t.he amendlltent is that it would break into our reappraisement puiods. The first p0riod roni for the new leases has been fixed, and it is not sug .. f:P'ted that we should relieve thorn. The Biil is to relieye those people who are suffering- through no fault of their own, ,;r.d not Jlf'<>plc who took up land the day before vcsterdav with a full knowkdgo of tho )lOBi· tion. It would be wasting t.be time of the· Court to ask it to consider thcso ea .cs.

Land Acts (Review of Cattle [26 OcTOBER.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill. 2015

Mr. MOORE: 1921 is a little further back than the day before yesterday.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC L"\NDS: I can aseure the hon. member that no hard"hip will be occasioned by refusing to accept the amendment.

Amendment (Mr. kioore) negatived

'rhe SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. McC'ormack, Cairns): I beg to move the insertion, on lino 4, page 2, after the word-

" holding" of the words-

" or occupation license." T,bis is a consequential amendment.

Amendment (lVIr. McCormack) agreed to. Clause, as amended, passed with a similar

consequential amendment on line 5. Clause 3-" Notice of flection to take

advantage of this ,.let "-put and passed [7.30 p.m.]

Clause 4-" Reference to Land Court"put and passed.

Clause 5-" Duty of the Court under this Act"-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I beg to mcve the insertion, on line 30, page 3, after the words

" twenty ~six/' of the words-

" or, if the term of the lease will expire before the last-mentioned date during the period commencing as afore~aid and ending on the date of such expiry."

I th1!'k that that is necessary to complete the pl'OVISlOll.

Amendment (Mr. JllcCormack) agreed to. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS

(Hon. W. McCormack, Cnirns): I beg to move the insertion, on line 43, after the word

" aforesaid " of the words-

" (or such lesser period up to the date of expiry of the term of the lease)."

This is also a consequential amendment. Amendment (Mr. lJicCormack) agreed to. Consequential amendments on line 52 of

page 3, and line 26 of page '4, agreed to. Clause, as amended, pqt and passed. Clause 6-" Readjustment of pe1·iods "-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I beg to move the insertion, on line 33, after the word

"six,"

of the words-" (or, if the term of the lease will expire before _the last-men~1oned date, during the _penod commoncmg as aforesaid and cndmg on ·date of such expiry)."

Amendment (Mr. kicCormack) agreed to. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS

(Hon. W .. ::WcCormack,_ Cairns): I beg to move the msertwn, on hne 34, after the word

"holding," of the words-

" the rent whereof has been reviewed under this Act."

Amendment (Mr. M.cCormack) agreed to.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny): I beg to move thu insertion, on line 54, after the word

''Act" of the words-

" Provided that the annual rent for any period following the period endmg on the thirtieth day of June one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six as aforesaid shall not exceed the annual rent payable for the next preceding period by more than one-half of the annual rent payable for such preceding period."

When I was speaking on the second reading of the Bill I pointed out that the posi· tion of theee men is a very precarious one, and the Minister said that he has seen many of their overdrafts and knows their position. I am spriously afraid that, if they wanted security. there is no guarantee that these men will be able to raise the requisite amount of money, not only to pay their rents, but to carry on. In my opmion the position was never more serious in the industry than it is to .. day. ·when the slump came eighteen or twenty years ago the cattlemen had not paid high prices to secure their stock. To-day cattlemen are holding stock for which they paid tremendous price', and when the bottom fell out of the market they had no assets at all. Tho position is so bad that 1 hey have not been able to pay their rents or to get financial institutions to back them and enable them to carry on. I think that they should haYe a more definite form of security to put before the financial institutions to enable them to obtain funds to carry on until conditions improve. vVe all know that banking and financial institutions do not carrv on their businesses on sentiment but require security. That is essential. If they carried on business on sentiment, we would have no financial institutions at all. I think it is a reasonable suggestion to enable these people to get on their feet at present, otherwise, wl•en the market improves, they may be mulcted in rent and be almost 1'n as bad a position as they are to-day. An opportunity should be given to them to get on their feet and see whether they cannot make the industry a profitable and prosperous one.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. '\Y. McCormack, Cai1·ns): The hon. member for Aubigny is proposing an amendment that. has caused a great deal of trouble in the past in connection with the Land Act. I do not think that any Government are likelv to insert such a clause in the Land Act again. The Parliament of 1926 can deal with this matter in their own way. I do not. think that we should attempt to put on future generations something that might be very unfair to them.

::-.1r. MooRE: Yol! have already put on a. lot that is unfair.

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LANDS, In this case the hon. gentleman is making the same difficulty for the future that previous Government did. Not only the Labour Government, bnt Mr. Denham, found this a hampering limitation, and he passed an Act through Parliament-or his Government intended to put it through, but it was not accepted by the Upper House -to counteract this hampering limitation imposed bY a previous Parliament. Anyone who studies the question will admit that Parliament should never have gi'ven that concession. It was a most unfair limitation.

Hon. W. McCormack.]

2016 Land Acts (Reviru: of Cattle [ASSEMBLY.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill.

At the tin:o Parliament was called upon to do som0thmg. as wo are to-dav. to relieve a desperate situation. Instead of doing it in a way that w_ould not injure future interests, they d1d It m "' way that will injure the future interests.

Mr. MooRE: You don't know that vou have relieved the situation yet. ·

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The intention to-day is to give relief over a porwd of winch \\ e have sonw idea of the conditions that will prevail. vVe know that we can expect little or no relief during the ~cxt twelve months or hYo ~;·carR. Perhaps ~n hvo ycar'3 . there rnay be an irnprovcment 111 the meut Iadustry throug;hout the world. \Vc kno>:' that organisation is lacking in the moat industry. but wo also knmv that the boot organisation in tho world is of little use if a markt't for the produce i:3 not available ~~ith orgnnisa1ion in the industrY hero and ;n the methods of distributing the moat in the mar!<ots of the world lot us hone th<se conditions will pass away. It \You1~l be an urnviso thin~r, .and a thing iho Govcrnnlc~'!;,,ould IJo-r; agree to .after thP-ir experience 1n ,1.ho pa\".lt, to pnt anv limlt.ation on a future Parliament .. I havo ·investigated this questiOn of the hmita tion, o.nd I iincl the >vhole thing- was duP to a. little bit of weakness on the part of the then Premier. Tho pastoralists in those days would have accepted the lea sos as they stood.

Mr. KT:\G: They would not hayo accepted t}wrn.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS: I have heard prornineut paetoralists say that they put the quc,tion to Mr. Cameron, who ''as then a me m bor of this liouso. and thev said that. if they had failed to get the 50 per cent. Iimitation, thcv would have acccpt..._,J_ their lca~ps nnd tlllng~ \YOuld havo been all right. Then we >Yonld not have bl'en in thP po-.;ition we arc in to-day, and \YC \Yorild not have had the awful position in the Jl"'toral industry of one man paying a much hig-her rPnt~ than another for tho samrl class of country.

:VIr. JlloORE: They paid it with their eyee open.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAY\DS: Of cours-e they did, because this limitation was there. TJJP State has a rig·ht to the true economic value of its estate, but that limitation preycnted tbo State frOl)1 getting tbo truo cconotnif' value of ih land, and it was an unfai1· limitation. Hovyeycr I do not intend to discuss th>1t aspect of the question. It is past and gone. bnt. while I am arlministcring the Dcp.ntmcnt of Public Lands there wi 11 bo no mistake like that made in thf· future. I a1n not going to acc0pt an amendment that \Yill tio future Parliaments. If there is a new l"arJiamoHt in 1926 lot it deal \Yith t.hc situation as it finds it. Mv ad.-icP will he not to a·iyc relief over ai1 <>xtondod. period that will tic up posterity. G1vP rPhof for such tnno Ds human forPthought can foTcsPe, but do not tie up our future people ~·cith agrocrneni~ and limitations that arc unfair to them and unfair to the State. I do not intend to accept the amondn1enc.

Mr. TAYLOR (TVinrlsor): I was sorrv to boar the Minister say that he had no intention of acrepting the amcnfhnont. It is simply rcaffirml11g· a prinriple whirh was considered right and proper many years ago.

flion. TL ]JJ.cCormack.

[n regard to tho Minister's remarks about the State being entitled to the true economic valuo of its estate, if that priuciple was applied a 11 round in roo-ard to a lot of tha public estate at the p,:'esent time, tho Go~crnmcnt would find thov would hav'e to pay thC' orcupicr. If it is u good in ono case, it should be good in the other.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC LA:-iDS: The periods <:.'£ reappraisement avcrago th-8t.

Mr TAYLOH: The alt~rntio>1 made in 1920 hfls created a Vl'ry difficult position The Go,ernmcnt .-iow it in one light and the people whr. find the money in the \\ay of loa!'s to Queensland look at it in quite a drfteren~ light, a!1~l we . .are up against a yory stiff proposition at the present tin10 1n regal'd to pastoral rental~·. \Ye have to face tho facts as they are. It is all very well to say the State is entitled to this or is entitled to that. It is all vr;ry well for the Mini.•tcr to sav that he will not accept the amenclnoont; the >vholo quoc:tion is that.

hen this conression wa.::J given rnany years HtSO, 1-hc mi;::takc the then Government 1nado was that. imteacl of fixinp; a 50 per cent. rnaxin1nn1 ir;creasc for t.he hole period, the-y .c:.hould have fixed a sliding scale of increases. 'rhat is to say, thev ehould ha.-o start>'d off for tlH' ftrst period with the limitation of 50 per cont .• the second period with a limita· tion of 100 per cont., anc; for the third neriod a limitation of, say. not ,moro than 150 per cont. If that had been done. the State WQnld ha ye hocn a1npl"': pr<JtPrtcd. To n1n kP it 50 per cont. over"' the whole period of the li'asc; was probably a mistake. and I wouJ.d not a reprove o£ anything of that kind hcing done In thj'~ instan{'e we arc o.nly providing for a 10-ycar lcn~e and I do not think the Statf' is likely to lo'e anything at all by putting in that proviso at this time.

Amendment (J!r. Jioorc) negatived.

Clam,e, as amended. put and passed.

Clauf3c 7- '" .htrisdi,·tion of one mc,mbr:r" -put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR P'GBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I beg to move the insertion of the following new clause:-

" [8] (1.) At any timo within three months after the pa;;>ing of this Act the holder of any occupation license to which this ,\et is applicable may give notice, in writing under his hand or under the hand of his agont. to the Minister that he desire, the Minister to take into consideration the rent paid in respect of such occupation license since the first day of J ul;-, ono thousand nine hundred and twenty-one. and the rent payable in future during a period of five years commencing on the date last aforesaid and ending on the thirtieth day of June, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six, or for such period of time less than the period last aforesaid in cases where such occupation license shall have been determind at a date earlier than the thirtieth day of J uno, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six, under the provisions of j,he principal Act.

" (2.) Every such notice shall be in the form hereunder set forth or to the like effect, namely:-

" District of

Land Acts (Review of Cattle [26 OCTOBER.] Holding Rents), Etc., Bill. 2017

"Occupation License No. " To the Minister for Lands.

" I [we] the undersig·ned, being the holder of Occupation License No. in the above district, hereby make application for reconsideration of the rent paid in respect of such occupation license since the first day of July, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-one, and the rent payable in future during a period of five years commencing on the date last aforesaid and ending on the thirtieth day of J uno, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six, or for such period of time lns than the period last aforesaid in cases where such occupation license shall have been determined at a date earlier than ihe thirtieth dav of ,J nne. one thousand nine hundred ;md twcntv-six. ancl subject to the provisions of 'the Land Acts (Review of Cattle Holding Rents) Amendment Act of 1923.

"The 'aid occupation license has, since the thirtieth day of June, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-ono, been used mainly for the depasturing of cattle.

" The number of cattle now being depasturcd on the land comprised in such license is [set forth approximately the number of cattle. If sheep are being depastured on the land, set forth approximately the number of sheep].

" Given under hand at , this day of , 192 ,

"\Vitness , J.P. A.B. " In the case of two or more occupa

tion licenses held by the same person, the whole of the lands comprised in such licenses may be included in one such a pp lie a tion.

" The fact (if it be so) that such land· on the date of the application aforesaid was being wholly or mainly used for the depasturing of stock other than ea ttle or that no stock were then bBing depastured on the said land shall not of itself preclude the Minister from extending to the applicant the benefit of this section.

" (3.) The Minister shall reconsider the rent of every occupation license comprised in such application, and in so doing shall have regard to-

(i.) The decrease in the earning power of the land held under such license by reason of the fall in prices of cattle and other products obtained or obtainable therefrom; and

(ii.) The advantageous situation (if it be so) of the land in relation to markets for its cattle and other products; and

(iii.) The decisions (if any) of the Court made under section five of this Act with respect to cattle holdings in the localit,- of the land held under such license, and in particular the rents fixed with respect to such holdings by the Court for the period of five years under the said section mentioned. " (4.) The Minister in his discretion

may fix afresh the rent payable in respect of any such occupation license for a period of years commencing on the first day of July, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-one, and ending on the thirtieth day of June, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six, or any earlier

1923--6u

date when such license is determined in any manner whatsoever under the principal Act.

" (5.) The rent as determined afresh by the Minister under this Act shall be the rent payable in respect of such occupation license during the years aforesaid.

" (6.) The amount by which the rent actually paid by the licensee on the area comprised in the license as existing on the date of the notice of his application under this section in respect of such license is in excess of the amount which would have been payable on such arBa if such rent had been at the rate fixed by the Minister under this section, shall be credited to the licensee and applied towards payment of the rent of the land which may subsequently become due."

This now clause sets out in detail the method by which the Minister will fix the rentals in connection with occupation licenses.

Mr. TAYLOR: Does the Minister fix the rental?

The SECRETARY FOR PGDLIC LA?-JDS: He can increase it at the present time but he cannot decrease it, and my original proposition that we should cancel the occupation licenses and issue new ones with a new rental would have met the situation only it mc·a.nt a tremendous amount of work in the Department of Lands, and incidentally I "·ould have had to sign all these occupation licenses. so I decided to put it in the Bill. The procedure is the same as applies to the lessees, and the Minister in fixing the rental will take into consideration the same matters that the Court takes into consideration, and in addition to that he takeo the rental fixed by the Court on an adjacent holding as a fair rental. If the Court reduces the rentals of the leases in the district where occupation licenses are held, the Minister will fix the rentals of the occupation lic~nses on the same basis as that adopted by the Court. Instead of having half a dozen systems of fixing rents the Minister will accept the Court's decision and apply it as nearly as possible to occupation licenses adjacent to the leases.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett) : Other things have to be considered in connection with, occupation licenses. Country under occupation license is generally inferior country. It may be country that was wanted for cutting up into grazing homesteads at an earlier date. Generally speaking, it is the inferior country on the run that has r,ever been designed as a separate holding.

The SECRETARY FOil PFBLTC LANDS : I ha YC

considered t.he matter from every point of VleW.

:1Ir. CORSER: I do not think i( wonld be \ 1:i 'iC to take it out of the l\1jnist~r's hands. Ho shonld take into consideration the fact that., wbilo the Comt ma.y decide on a. c.crtain basis. the land over '~hich he will havo jurisdiction will be the poorest land in the iocality.

New clause (Jlr. JI cGnrmrzck) agreed to.

1_"~he House resumed.

'!'he TE~!PORARY CuAIR:I!AN reported the Bill with amendments.

The third reading of the Bill was m.1de rtn Order of the Day 'for vY ednesrLry next.

Mr. Dorser.]

2018 Paper. [ASSEMBLY.]

ROCKHAJ\1PTON, TOOWOOlVIBA, WARWICK, AND GATTON PUBLIC LAKD MOHTGAGES BILL.

SECOND READING.

HoN. F. T. BRENNAN (Touwoomba): This is a Bill in connection with certain institutions in the cities of Rockh~mpton and Toowoomba and the towns of \V~rwick and Gatton. A request has been made by several members, including myself as the member for Toowoomba, that these institutions should be allowed to mortgage their properties. Such authority has previously had to be obtained by mean. of a private Act of Parliament, but there being four associations which desire this power we have decided to introduce i;bis small measure to enable them all to carry out their wi;,hes. Instead of limiting the amounts as reque·tcd by the varicus institutions, we have decided to give them power to approach the Governor in Council from time to time according to their requirements, so as to obviate the necessity for .any further private Bills being introduced. I have much pleasure in moving-

" ·That the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. G. P. BARNES (Warwick): As one whose electorate is concerned in the Bill, I desire to say that the people of Warwick appreciate the action of the Minister in including that town in ihe Bill. Heretofore moneys have been raised under the gmuaatce of certain individuals to the bank, and we know how unpleasant that kind of thing generally is. The Bill will enable the various societies named-and others mav come in later-to obtain the money they "require on ordinary mortgage. The Eastern Downs Show Snciety at Warwick owe a debt of £730 to the bank, which has been guaranteed by the committee. They will now mortgage the land and the mortgage will be the security for the debt. There will be ample safeguard in connection with these matters, as the Government have to be app,·oached before a mortgage can be entered into.


CoMMITTEE. (Mr. F. A. Cooper, Bremer, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, and the schedule put and passed.

The House resumed. The 'TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN reported the

Bill without amendment.

THIRD READING.

HoN. F. T. BRENNAN (Toowoomb•L): I beg to move-

" That the Bill be now read a third time."


PAPER. The following paper was laid on the table,

and ordered to be printed:-Second annua.l report of the Main Roads

Board for the year ended 30th June. 1923.

The House adjourned at 7.58 p.m.

[Hon. F. T. Brennan.

Prickly-pear Land Bill.

legislative assembly friday october · opera1 ioi-is of the f:tores purchasln g authority of the...

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