Kirshner

[ATAC editor’s note: Numbers before each entry represent minutes and seconds. Text in square brackets is added description. Text not in brackets is spoken text.]

[00:00] [Six people- an older woman, an older man, a young man two boys and a middle aged man- sit down on chairs that surround a small table.]

[00:00:00.05] NARRATOR: Film shows a way to do therapy with a young heroin addict and his family. Excerpts from therapy sessions will be shown to illustrate the procedures. The family was selected to be part of a research program on the use of family therapy with addicts on methadone. The therapist talked with the parents at a research interview and persuaded them to try family therapy for the addiction problem of their son.

[00:00:21.20] They agreed to come for a first therapy interview and to bring the whole family, including two younger brothers. The young man is 25 years old. He's been a heroin and amphetamine addict for five years. He has been detoxed a number of times. The longest he was off illegal drugs in those five years was two months.

[00:00:41.67] The mother works in an office. The father has a small business. As their therapist sits down with the family, he assumes they have agreed to come regularly for therapy. He is surprised when the mother says she's not coming back again and she and her husband are separating.

[00:01:00.09] INTERVIEWER: So. What's doing?

[00:01:03.07] SUBJECT 1: You got a sad group here.

[00:01:05.60] INTERVIEWER: Sad group, huh?

[00:01:06.85] SUBJECT 1: A very sad group.

[00:01:08.84] SUBJECT 2: Yeah. Because I'm not going back anymore. You're not coming back anymore?

[00:01:15.60] SUBJECT 1: I'm not saying it because of that, I'm just saying it's a sad group.

[00:01:18.38] SUBJECT 3: They all have things to do tonight.

[00:01:20.27] SUBJECT 2: I didn't have anything to do.

[00:01:21.59] SUBJECT 3: I do.

[00:01:22.86] INTERVIEWER: What's the sadness about?

[00:01:25.12] SUBJECT 1: In four words, it's a screwed up family. In four words, a real screwed up family.

[00:01:31.34] INTERVIEWER: And you're not coming back anymore?

[00:01:33.59] SUBJECT 2: No. I don't think it's necessary. First of all, I'm moving. He's going on his own. He leads a life of his own, he comes with me. He can do whatever he wants. He'll be 26 years old. If he ain't going to start now, that's it. And he's already made a mistake since we got here.

[00:01:54.07] INTERVIEWER: He's taking dope, you mean?

[00:01:55.19] SUBJECT 3: Yeah, once. Because I made more money than [INAUDIBLE] if you let me go.

[00:02:01.88] SUBJECT 2: I mean, it's not necessary for these two to tolerate this.

[00:02:04.77] INTERVIEWER: Right?

[00:02:05.24] SUBJECT 2: I mean--

[00:02:05.56] SUBJECT 3: I'm not bothering them. You are bothering them. Explain to the doctor that I'm not bothering this boys at all.

[00:02:10.79] SUBJECT 2: But, where do you think this is all coming from?

[00:02:13.40] SUBJECT 3: Me. Been for five years.

[02:17] [Pause in video.]

[00:02:18.54] NARRATOR: The therapist could assume that's the therapeutic problem is one person, the addict. From that point of view, the young man has an inner compulsion to take drugs. His family is not really relevant except as a stress factor.

[00:02:32.00] SUBJECT 2: He's welcome to come, if he's going to get a job. I'm not throwing him in the street.

[00:02:36.00] SUBJECT 3: Give you more money, I owe you more money for everything?

[00:02:38.24] SUBJECT 2: You don't owe me anything. I don't want no money. All want you to do is, do what to have to for yourself.

[00:02:44.51] SUBJECT 3: I try. You know how hard it is.

[00:02:46.12] SUBJECT 2: You do not try hard enough.

[00:02:47.36] SUBJECT 3: Why don't you think about trying to think about how hard It is.

[00:02:50.04] SUBJECT 2: You don't try, you sleep in bed all day.

[00:02:52.40] SUBJECT 3: Oh bullshit. You know why don't you think about what I'm going through and how hard it is to go through it.

[00:02:56.89] SUBJECT 2: I can't imagine, I can't imagine.

[00:02:58.92] SUBJECT 3: No, you goddamn can't imagine, can you?

[00:02:59.98] SUBJECT 2: No I can't. I can't imagine that I would do such a thing to my parents. I can't imagine it.

[00:03:05.12] SUBJECT 3: Oh, I'm doing it to you? Huh, do you think that I'm doing it to you? Do you?

[03:10] [Pause in video.]

[00:03:10.54] NARRATOR: The therapist could assume that the problem is not one person but two people. The son takes drugs and fails in collaboration with his mother to keep her involved with him and give her a purpose in life.

[00:03:21.44] INTERVIEWER: Somebody fill me in on what happened since I last talked to you? And why don't you fill me in.

[00:03:26.06] SUBJECT 1: That's it. I gave it to you all in a few words. It's a screwed up family.

[00:03:29.94] SUBJECT 3: I had a job--

[00:03:30.81] SUBJECT 1: She should go with--

[00:03:31.12] SUBJECT 3: --I lost my job

[00:03:31.96] SUBJECT 1: --him

[00:03:32.21] SUBJECT 3: --and I did go.

[00:03:32.86] SUBJECT 1: He should go with me, she should go her way, I should go my way. This kid I think he's the most-- I pray to God he stays with it.

[00:03:44.01] INTERVIEWER: You two want to separate? Is that what's happening?

[00:03:47.03] SUBJECT 1: I don't know. I think it's best thing for us.

[00:03:49.56] SUBJECT 3: You are full of shit.

[00:03:51.33] SUBJECT 1: I mean it.

[00:03:51.76] SUBJECT 3: Because of me?

[00:03:52.19] SUBJECT 1: No.

[00:03:52.62] SUBJECT 3: Oh yeah? That's all the whole thing.

[00:03:54.89] INTERVIEWER: George. Shut up.

[00:03:55.52] SUBJECT 1: No It's not because of you.

[00:03:56.91] SUBJECT 3: If i got something to say, I'm going to say it.

[00:03:58.75] INTERVIEWER: Everybody in this room has a chance to talk. I'm talking to your father now, man.

[00:04:01.47] SUBJECT 1: Why are you so incoherent?

[00:04:03.08] SUBJECT 3: You just doing this because you're saying you should go your way, she should go hers because I'm a dope addict trying to make it. Do you know how hard it is to make it? It's like trying to pull an elephant. You know.

[04:16] [Pause in video.]

[00:04:16.20] NARRATOR: The therapist could assume the problem is three people, which is the premise of the therapy shown here. The parents communicate through the son and stay together because of him. And when the son begins to succeed and so leaves home, the parent face only each other and threaten to separate.

[00:04:31.73] At that point, the son fails taking drugs and the parents pull back together to take care of him and to quarrel with him. This sequence keeps repeating. To move the son out of the parents' marriage so that he can function normally, the therapist must first place the young man in the center of the marriage.

[00:04:48.20] That is why the young man is brought together with his family for therapy even if he's living separately from them. It is to help them get apart. The family is at the stage in the sequence when the son is moving toward more normality by registering in a methadone program and starting school.

[00:05:03.23] The parents threaten separation and the young man began to fail by taking drugs and by missing school. Since the goal of the therapy is to move the young man out of the parents' marriage, a first step is to move him physically out from between the parents and place the therapist there.

[00:05:19.02] SUBJECT 3: Look I'm 25 years old. I can sit where I want.

[00:05:21.56] INTERVIEWER: I'm asking you I'd like you to sit here.

[00:05:23.46] SUBJECT 3: All right, 0

[00:05:24.38] INTERVIEWER: Thank you.

[00:05:24.76] SUBJECT 3: Relax.

[00:05:25.23] INTERVIEWER: Right.

[00:05:25.54] SUBJECT 3: Be happy.

[00:05:25.93] INTERVIEWER: OK.

[00:05:26.24] SUBJECT 3: They think I shoot dope because I hate them, I want them suffer. They are very mixed up. You all are mixed up.

[00:05:31.01] INTERVIEWER: OK. Let me find out what the fight is all about here. And what's been happening in the last--

[00:05:36.83] SUBJECT 1: It's been a constant turmoil between her and him.

[00:05:41.02] SUBJECT 3: Not me.

[00:05:41.73] SUBJECT 1: Her and him.

[00:05:42.66] SUBJECT 2: Not really--

[00:05:43.02] SUBJECT 1: She can't cope and he can't

[00:05:43.54] SUBJECT 2: --no.

[00:05:43.93] SUBJECT 3: Do you realize that I'm a drug addict?

[00:05:45.32] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. We will get--

[00:00] [Pause in video.]

[00:05:46.29] NARRATOR: That brief episode, expresses the typical sequence of the family. As father says the mother cannot cope criticizing her and threatening a disagreement between them. The son makes himself the problem and draws father's attack. This way of helping the parents avoid disagreements also prevents the parents negotiating the differences and so keeps the unfortunate pattern stable. Let us look at that typical sequence again that occurs as a family theme in many forms and is typical in families with a problem young person.

[00:06:16.10] INTERVIEWER: And what's been happening in the last--

[00:06:17.33] SUBJECT 1: It's been a constant turmoil between her and him.

[00:06:21.93] SUBJECT 3: Not me.

[00:06:22.60] SUBJECT 1: Her and him.

[00:06:23.15] SUBJECT 2: Not really--

[00:06:23.79] SUBJECT 1: She can't cope

[00:06:24.29] SUBJECT 2: --no.

[00:06:24.69] SUBJECT 1: And he can't.

[00:06:25.08] SUBJECT 3: Do you realize that I'm a drug addict?

[00:06:26.50] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. We will get to you. Hold on.

[00:06:27.47] SUBJECT 1: I'm not talking about drug addicts. You made a mistake. I mean it was stupid of you to do it. Very stupid.

[00:06:31.23] SUBJECT 3: [INAUDIBLE].

[00:06:33.44] SUBJECT 1: You wanted an excuse and you've got it. The cheapest excuse you could've gotten. You got an excuse. Hey, there you go you going to have fun all your life.

[00:06:40.29] SUBJECT 3: I wanted to do this because I want my father and mother to break-up--

[00:06:42.67] SUBJECT 1: You have nothing to do with this.

[00:06:43.37] SUBJECT 3: --Drop dead, die of heart attack.

[00:06:44.52] SUBJECT 1: You have nothing to do with this.

[00:06:45.63] INTERVIEWER: George, your father is saying you've got nothing to do with them breaking up.

[00:06:47.91] SUBJECT 3: Oh yeah? Then how come it was mentioned in the beginning?

[00:06:50.30] SUBJECT 1: Our life isn't fun.

[00:06:50.83] SUBJECT 3: She's making them crazy because she yells because of me. I got her [INAUDIBLE].

[00:06:54.89] SUBJECT 1: She yells because of everything there's no reason why she shouldn't because you don't do a god damn thing. Do you understand?

[00:06:59.61] INTERVIEWER: Hold on! Yeah, I'll like to talk to the two of you alone. George, could you take your two brothers and go out in the waiting room?

[07:07] [Young man and both boys get up and leave circle.]

[00:07:09.06] NARRATOR: The therapist must have an agreement with parents in the family that they are cooperating together to solve a problem. The therapist thought he had such a contract but he has not. There's only confusion and something must be done. The therapist take action and essentially start the interview all over again by establishing a contract with the parents and setting an agenda for the therapy to follow.

[07:31] [The middle aged man sits with the older man and woman.]

[00:07:31.64] SUBJECT 1: He's going to look for excuses, little excuses. Now this incident here now he's going to go out and shoot. Now this is wrong. I know. It's a 100% wrong. We're not helping him.

[00:07:42.76] INTERVIEWER: That's what we've got to try doing.

[00:07:44.54] SUBJECT 1: The boy is trying to help himself but we need help as much as him maybe more. Now this not your affair. You know what I mean? I mean you got your problems with him.

[07:55] [Pause in video.]

[00:07:55.69] NARRATOR: The therapist might respond to the father by offering help to the parents or by defining the therapy as for the whole family. It is best to avoid exploring family problems and keep the focus on the problem son. The goal of the therapy is to establish a correct hierarchy with the parent pulling together to deal with an irresponsible son. By dealing with the son first, the therapist will have more success with any parental problems later.

[00:08:21.75] INTERVIEWER: Right. And that's what we're here for.

[00:08:24.59] SUBJECT 1: Right.

[08:25] [Pause in video.]

[00:08:25.63] INTERVIEWER: OK. That's what I'm trying to say. The three of us have got to work together so we can help him to help himself. That's all. Now are you willing? See the point is that the three of us as adults have got straighten him out. And we can do this if we work together. I've worked with more difficult problem than this with success. And I'm telling you, if we work together on this we will lick this problem. And whatever else comes up between the two of you is another issue.

[09:03] [Young man and boys rejoin the circle.]

[00:08:58.53] NARRATOR: The therapist brings the boys back in. He has begun to establish the parents as joint authorities over their son, rather than a husband and wife struggling helplessly with each other and with their son.

[00:09:09.66] SUBJECT 3: So say what you have to say I have an engagement I want to go somewhere.

[00:09:12.85] INTERVIEWER: I hear you. OK. Already told you what I had to say out in the hall. That any kind of stuff that goes on between your folks has little to do with you. All right?

[00:09:23.80] SUBJECT 3: All right? I got that down pat. They don't like each other.

[00:09:26.68] SUBJECT 2: That's not true. Well, I don't know what true. What is true?

[00:09:30.06] INTERVIEWER: OK. Let's say this, that when they get upset at each other it's not necessarily because of you. Is that a fair statement?

[00:09:35.59] SUBJECT 1: Definitely.

[00:09:36.60] INTERVIEWER: OK. That's a fair statement.

[00:09:37.80] SUBJECT 3: 90% me. How's that?

[00:09:39.17] SUBJECT 2: You're wrong

[00:09:40.01] SUBJECT 3: 50?

[00:09:40.44] SUBJECT 2: You're wrong.

[00:09:40.69] SUBJECT 3: Bullshit. You don't know what it is. Be realistic with me at least. Have I caused you heartbreak?

[00:09:46.74] SUBJECT 1: Oh yeah. Certainly you have.

[00:09:48.31] SUBJECT 3: But your boy never got arrested. The fast, quick little jackass queer jerk-off never got arrested but he was junkie turning to a junkie. Can you understand that? How can you understand it? My own father understand all that. Do you know what the hell I'm going through? Hate each other I don't give a shit because I'm doing my thing, trying to do it. And it's hard.

[00:10:08.62] INTERVIEWER: OK. Why don't you explain to your folks what you are going through?

[00:10:11.36] SUBJECT 3: They don't want to hear shit.

[00:10:11.78] INTERVIEWER: They're listening. They're listening.

[00:10:13.20] SUBJECT 3: Twist my arm. Every time I do what they want to do.

[00:10:16.11] INTERVIEWER: They're listening now. What are you going through? Come on. Tell your folks what you're going through.

[00:10:20.33] SUBJECT 3: Hell, man.

[00:10:20.75] INTERVIEWER: OK. What's going on?

[00:10:21.58] SUBJECT 3: It's just every time I'll be straight and soon as the word dope everything just stops. I think nobody you, her, nobody, just miss heroin.

[00:10:32.84] INTERVIEWER: You were straight, you were-- hey, hey, you straight for how long?

[00:10:35.26] SUBJECT 3: Two months.

[00:10:36.03] INTERVIEWER: OK.

[00:10:36.32] SUBJECT 3: And I got it for free. Not even from Tommy or Mary and they are all straight. And he said get high but they know how to control it. People get high. He probably gets high but he's not a glutton. I'm a glutton.

[10:48] [“Later in the interview” text on screen.]

[00:10:51.61] INTERVIEWER: Soon as you get a job you mean. So the next thing is for you to get a job, make some money and then move out. Is that the idea?

[00:10:58.02] SUBJECT 3: I don't want to move out.

[00:10:59.44] INTERVIEWER: You don't want to move out?

[00:11:00.71] SUBJECT 3: No. Because he needs help too. They both need help like I need help.

[00:11:05.48] INTERVIEWER: That's a different problem we already discussed that when you where gone.

[00:11:07.43] SUBJECT 3: No. He could drop dead right now. I think about it more than I think of my own problems. That I tried to myself, thinking how can I help my father and mother from being nervous. That's crazy. I'm high and I'm thinking how my helping them.

[00:11:22.26] INTERVIEWER: George, could you do me a favor? Do me one favor. Would you turn that job over to me? I'll worry about your father's health.

[00:11:28.49] SUBJECT 3: But he made me. He didn't make you.

[00:11:30.58] INTERVIEWER: All right. So what?

[00:11:31.18] SUBJECT 3: Do I make any sense coming here with that, then, he made me.

[00:11:33.65] INTERVIEWER: So what do--

[00:11:34.34] SUBJECT 3: I care.

[00:11:34.79] INTERVIEWER: I know you care.

[00:11:35.53] SUBJECT 3: More than anybody else cares.

[00:11:37.10] INTERVIEWER: OK I want to make an agreement with you. If you care about you father's health, right? Which I know you do. Turn it over to me and you worry about your own business.

[00:11:45.98] SUBJECT 3: Soon they move everything will be cool like a happy home. I come in, I want to go out. I'm with a chick she has three kids. I'm having fun I want to stay. I'm 25. I feel like I have to report into the army. But I want to call you mom because I know you're worried, you nervous, you don't sleep.

[00:12:00.69] You understand ma why I call you? Girl 26-years old wondering why I'm call my ma. I say mommy am at so and so's House. Had a good time last night. I'm All right. What that sounds like to a 26-year-old girl like I'm checking in with my Sergeant or something.

[12:15] [Pause in video.]

[00:12:15.09] NARRATOR: The therapist is about to make the major therapeutic intervention of this therapy. The goal is to draw a generation line and have the parent hold together with each other in relation to the son. A first step to achieve this goal, can be to ask the most distant parent to take charge of the son.

[00:12:30.68] The therapist would ask father to deal with the problem of the son. And he will ask mother to communicate to father rather than to son. In this way the father is introduced into the middle of the intense relationship between son and mother.

[00:12:43.00] If the therapist can hold father in the position between mother and son it is the first step in the ultimate joining of mother and father. The therapist offers a directive using a long pause to get attention so he will be heard.

[00:12:55.88] INTERVIEWER: OK. So since George is so upset, I [INAUDIBLE].

[00:12:57.66] SUBJECT 3: I'm not upset. I'm really having fun now. I feel like a nut.

[00:13:00.74] INTERVIEWER: [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah, this is what I want to try. For just a week. OK. That's an experiment in the house. If you have any complaints or you want to check up on George, whatever you want to do. Tell your husband to do it.

[00:13:18.48] SUBJECT 2: But that's no problem.

[00:13:19.42] INTERVIEWER: You hold on.

[00:13:20.13] SUBJECT 2: Whatever I ask him, he tells me.

[00:13:22.70] INTERVIEWER: No, no, no. See, I don't want you to do it, though. See, I want to give you a rest. I want to give you a rest. I mean that now. You got a lot of stuff on--

[00:13:29.19] SUBJECT 2: He offers me that. He tells me. He says to me, please be quiet. If something is wrong tell me, let me talk to him. But I just can't seem keep quiet. I feel like I'm the only one that's going to make it better and I feel like I'm making him worse.

[00:13:47.99] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. OK, so we'll try it different. George, would you hold on? We're trying something here.

[00:13:50.86] SUBJECT 3: --like it hurts me when I do dope, huh?

[00:13:53.58] SUBJECT 2: I don't feel that him, him or him is capable of making him better.

[00:13:58.11] INTERVIEWER: Well right now what you're trying is evidently not working. OK. Let's look at the fact it's not working. I mean you're concerned but the way you're going about it is just not working. And you got a lot on your mind, maybe that's why it's not working. You got a lot of things on your mind anyway now. Right?

[00:14:15.62] OK. So I want to have you worry about your own things. And If you have some you're concerned about with George, tell your husband and let him tell George.

[00:14:26.41] SUBJECT 3: He's been telling me in a pretty good way too.

[00:14:27.97] INTERVIEWER: Honey, is that fair enough?

[00:14:28.92] SUBJECT 3: And I've been telling you.

[00:14:29.55] INTERVIEWER: You just hold on, hold on, hold it, George.

[00:14:32.72] SUBJECT 3: Dad, than ever in the past five years.

[00:14:33.50] INTERVIEWER: Are you willing to do that?

[00:14:37.16] SUBJECT 1: What's that again?

[00:14:38.32] INTERVIEWER: If your wife has something she's concerned about with George like she wants to ask some questions, some information, whatever, would you be willing to do it instead of her?

[00:14:48.08] SUBJECT 1: Certainly.

[00:14:48.67] INTERVIEWER: You're willing?

[00:14:53.72] SUBJECT 1: Did you get your medicine Monday?

[00:14:55.56] SUBJECT 3: No because I was-- Hell, I can't take my medicine that I'm on now. You know methadone makes me talk, makes me go nuts, like you say I'm dopey.

[00:15:04.49] SUBJECT 1: Did you go to the clinic?

[00:15:06.58] SUBJECT 3: Methadone last 80 hours, dad. I can stay-- I can go four days without getting sick.

[00:15:13.14] SUBJECT 2: Well, how come you go everyday?

[00:15:14.83] SUBJECT 3: Why? Because you have to. That's the law.

[00:15:17.68] SUBJECT 2: You didn't go today?

[00:15:18.83] INTERVIEWER: Hold it. There you go. You are asking him again, you're asking him again now.

[00:15:21.32] SUBJECT 3: Oh. I just didn't go. I was with a girl, I was having fun. I should have been somewhere. I lied to you.

[00:15:31.45] SUBJECT 1: Would you let me talk a minute. You'll have to take a urine test. You didn't take it Monday. You having trouble urinating?

[15:37] [Pause in video.]

[00:15:38.00] NARRATOR: The directive asking mother to communicate to son through father seems so simple, yet it is a major intervention. The therapist becomes a communication traffic cop encouraging the father and son to talk together and preventing mother from talking with son about his problem.

[00:15:54.93] The significance of the intervention is shown by the response to it. The family members try to return to the previous communication sequence. They will also threaten to leave each other and the therapist even fleeing the room as the son does later.

[00:16:09.49] SUBJECT 3: Oh, they didn't take it. They know I did heroin. I told Henry, I said, I did heroin. I do so much, that I didn't forget. Usually I don't forget. I shoot because it hurts me to do this, even when I'm high, Mom. Does that makes sense?

[00:16:20.12] SUBJECT 1: You do it this past--

[00:16:20.63] SUBJECT 3: I can't figure it out either. Saturday.

[00:16:23.52] SUBJECT 1: You did this past Saturday.

[00:16:25.41] SUBJECT 2: Again.

[00:16:26.26] SUBJECT 1: Why?

[00:16:27.62] SUBJECT 3: Again. I don't know. It just was there. Nobody understands. I'm not coming back Sam. I'm telling you.

[16:34] [“Later in the interview” text on screen.]

[00:16:37.89] SUBJECT 1: We're coming back.

[00:16:38.70] SUBJECT 3: I'm going to ask Henry for help, for medicine. You can come back, but I'm not.

[00:16:43.81] INTERVIEWER: I want you to come back. I want you to come back at least one more week to see how this works for you. One week.

[00:16:48.96] SUBJECT 3: I'm going to get away from them. I'm going to make a loan and as soon as I get away--

[00:16:52.37] SUBJECT 2: You couldn't make a loan from nobody.

[00:16:54.60] SUBJECT 3: Oh no?

[00:16:55.32] SUBJECT 2: No.

[00:16:55.60] SUBJECT 3: Do you want to make a bet?

[00:16:55.84] SUBJECT 2: No. The only way you going to make it is if you sell heroin to your friends.

[00:16:59.11] SUBJECT 3: There's ways mom. I will hustle and bustle.

[00:17:01.92] INTERVIEWER: George, hey, George. One more week. I want to see how this works out.

[00:17:05.53] SUBJECT 3: I don't want to. You talk to them.

[00:17:07.73] INTERVIEWER: I'll talk to you privately then

[00:17:09.40] SUBJECT 3: OK. Come on. Nobody understands me. I'm a nut. I'm retarded. I'm a nut. I have a disease.

[00:17:15.80] SUBJECT 4: You want to be.

[00:17:16.77] SUBJECT 3: Right. Yeah, sure I want to be.

[00:17:18.47] SUBJECT 4: Then how come you keep on saying it for Huh? How come-- it's real funny, ain't it? Jerk-off and get off.

[17:24] [One of the young boys leaves circle.]

[00:17:24.47] SUBJECT 3: See, he's right.

[00:17:25.32] SUBJECT 4: Yeah, I'm right.

[00:17:26.03] SUBJECT 3: You're right. Come on in. Sit down.

[00:17:28.57] INTERVIEWER: He's not going anywhere.

[00:17:29.82] SUBJECT 3: I don't care where he goes. I don't care.

[00:17:31.92] SUBJECT 1: You don't care about nothing.

[00:17:33.10] SUBJECT 3: I don't care about nothing. I've tortured this people so much I don't want to care no more. That's why I want to leave.

[00:17:39.96] SUBJECT 1: We are just holding your time Sam

[00:17:41.53] INTERVIEWER: You are not holding my time. Now where are you going now.

[00:17:43.09] SUBJECT 3: I'm going to thumb home I don't need a ride.

[00:17:45.78] INTERVIEWER: OK. We've got some other shit to talk about here. All right. So you're upset and that's why I don't want you to move out of the house.

[00:17:58.79] SUBJECT 1: Did you go to the clinic Monday?

[00:18:00.09] SUBJECT 3: What?

[00:18:00.86] SUBJECT 1: Did you go to the clinic?

[00:18:02.06] SUBJECT 3: No. I didn't go anywhere. I don't want to go no where.

[00:18:06.56] INTERVIEWER: Have you been to the clinic this week?

[00:18:07.79] SUBJECT 3: Uh-huh well since that last time I got high? I was there tonight. Henry don't even-- I'm going to talk to him and I'm going to ask him one more time to stick with me because I'm just jive ass. I'm trying but it looks like I'm not trying. I'm double talking right now.

[00:18:25.58] I'm really trying but it's impossible sometimes. Do you understand? Nobody believes it. Now all of a sudden somebody says I've got some heavy shit. Everything stops.

[18:33] [Young man stands up and jacket falls off of him. He appears extremely agitated.]

[18:35] My coat falls off, all my clothes. I'm nude. That's all there is. Baby, I want to be nice. That's all there is. That's what this does to you.

[00:18:45.14] INTERVIEWER: You understand that?

[00:18:45.98] SUBJECT 2: Is this a mental illness? No. This is not a mental illness. No. No. I don't understand. I don't understand. No.

[00:18:52.90] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. OK. So what you're saying is your mother and father don't understand how hard it is.

[00:18:56.78] SUBJECT 3: They don't.

[00:18:57.87] SUBJECT 2: No. Not when a boy says that he love me and he loves his father and he--

[00:19:01.07] SUBJECT 3: I forget all about you when I see my baby heroin.

[00:19:06.16] SUBJECT 2: Well why don't you just pack your clothes then move out with your baby.

[00:00] [Pause in video.]

[00:19:11.73] NARRATOR: By the end of this first interview the therapeutic plan has been set. Therapist and family have a contract and a procedure to follow. Father will deal with son and mother will communicate to son through father. One can expect to the threat of separation might occur between the parents and if so the son would relapse and take drugs to save them.

[19:32] [“The Second Interview” text on screen.]

[00:19:32.25] At the second interview, the therapist sees the parents alone. He must establish a good relationship with them to help them through the difficult times ahead. In particular, he must persuade the father to go on dealing with the son even if means trouble with his wife.

[19:48] [Therapist sits with just the older man and woman.]

[00:19:48.78] INTERVIEWER: This next four weeks is going to be tough.

[00:19:51.93] SUBJECT 2: For Georgie?

[00:19:53.93] INTERVIEWER: And I want to prepare you in advance for that. To know what you're coming up against. It's going to be very tough period. And depending on what decide today in terms of how you could use me in the best way to ensure this guy stays off drugs for the next-- I'll would say the next four weeks is going to be critical. In terms of how he's going to react to the detox and so on.

[20:21] [“The Third Interview” text on screen.]

[00:20:21.55] NARRATOR: During the second week, the young man was detoxified and brought down off a massive dose of methadone. An argument occurred between the parents, which included mother throwing dishes about the house. At that point the son took heroin and the father got into a physical fight with him.

[00:20:38.04] Therefore, the sequence expected was followed in just a matter of a week. The young man improved, the parents had a fight, and the young man relapsed. What was new was that father got actively involved in stopping the young man from taking heroin.

[20:52] [Therapist sits with older man, woman and young man.]

[00:20:52.67] SUBJECT 3: Wasn't too stormy.

[00:20:57.66] INTERVIEWER: And I could see that you are making a real effort to get this guy to be what he can be, huh?

[00:21:01.68] SUBJECT 1: It's do or die for him this time.

[00:21:03.07] INTERVIEWER: You're going to stick it out, right?

[00:21:04.78] SUBJECT 1: If he doesn't do something this time, I'm not going--

[00:21:07.00]

[00:21:09.84] SUBJECT 2: Well, I didn't stop it.

[00:21:11.07] SUBJECT 3: You didn't stop what? It didn't last too long. Did it?

[00:21:16.95] SUBJECT 2: I didn't think either one of them was going to really hurt each other. I mean, he would never hurt his father. And he could have, well he could have, he could have killed him.

[00:21:24.94] SUBJECT 1: [INAUDIBLE] since Monday or Tuesday.

[00:21:27.66] SUBJECT 3: And he was following me down street. He kept following down the street. He said come on back, you bastard. Come on back. You want to get killed again? You scared?

[00:21:36.26] SUBJECT 1: I said I want to talk to you.

[00:21:37.59] SUBJECT 3: Talk to me? Yeah. Take another shot. Right? Try another one. Huh? Made my head go just like that. Twice. You're getting over the hill Pete. You taught me forward left but you dropped you right down so you'd be coming right across the chin. You hurt a little bit? Right here?

[00:21:50.73] INTERVIEWER: Well, how about the fact that your father is making a real effort to keep you in line. To get you to be what you could be.

[00:21:56.88] SUBJECT 3: I appreciate that but I didn't do nothing the other night. I was just standing there. I walked in the house and all of a sudden lamps were thrown and everything.

[00:22:03.76] SUBJECT 1: You know what it was, we were so happy. The last time we spoke about him. We were happy, he was doing good, he was sweating out that there [INAUDIBLE], whatever they call it. And just like that he just gives up everything. So there was a little medical mistake. So it seems that little medical mistake gave him an excuse. I'm almost positive he shot when he came out of the hospital. Did you?

[00:22:30.41] SUBJECT 3: Once.

[00:22:32.41] SUBJECT 1: Once. There you go.

[00:22:36.39] NARRATOR: There is crucial aspect to this therapy. If the therapist wishes to correct the family hierarchy and place the parents in charge within the family. He must first be in charge of the case himself. It is important that the therapist reach agreement with his fellow professional and have medical management of the case, so that nothing is done without his permission. If custody or drugs are used without his permission the therapist will fail. In this case, this medical arrangement was not made at the beginning of therapy.

[00:23:04.48] During the second week, the young man was detoxify them placed on a drug that would cause them to reject heroin. This experiment was done without considering the therapy and it went badly. The young man shot up on heroin again, perhaps in relation to this drug treatment or perhaps in relation to his family. However, it is important that the therapist not condemn his fellow professional but find something positive in what they have done.

[23:27] [“Later in the interview” text on screen.]

[00:23:28.12] INTERVIEWER: Didn't I tell you it was going to tough week?

[00:23:29.31] SUBJECT 2: Oh, yeah you said it was going to be a tough week. But I figured, a week is--

[00:23:34.71] SUBJECT 1: When we come here he had been discharged from the hospital. That's what disappointed me he put all that in there, all that effort and just--

[00:23:44.99] SUBJECT 2: And the third time but he looks great. Doesn't he?

[00:23:50.25] INTERVIEWER: A little tired, good.

[00:23:51.80] SUBJECT 2: He looks good, you know. And he tells me that he's feeling good.

[00:23:53.86] INTERVIEWER: OK. Wait, wait a minute. Hold on. You said that was a waste?

[00:23:58.39] SUBJECT 3: It was not a waste.

[00:23:59.31] SUBJECT 2: Well it is a waste because he don't want to nothing.

[00:24:01.03] SUBJECT 3: I don't want to be on no [INAUDIBLE].

[00:24:03.26] INTERVIEWER: You detoxified so that's not a waste.

[00:24:05.10] SUBJECT 3: I was on 40 milligrams to come down in six days. You know what that is? You know that did? 40 milligrams if you and him split it you die.

[00:24:12.95] SUBJECT 2: Now you see this is what I'm telling you.

[00:24:14.78] INTERVIEWER: OK. So first of all, it wasn't a waste because he detoxed. That's the first thing. His system was clean and that's important.

[00:24:21.96] SUBJECT 1: Now is system is dirty again.

[00:24:23.51] SUBJECT 3: No it ain't. Ever since last week, last Friday.

[00:24:26.50] INTERVIEWER: All right. Hold on. Let's get back to work. So, in other words, he was wedged in between the two of you and agitating the two of you, in addition to anything else that was going. OK.

[00:24:38.67] SUBJECT 2: It makes everything else worse.

[00:24:40.32] INTERVIEWER: Makes everything else worse.

[00:24:41.52] SUBJECT 2: Right. It make everything else bigger.

[00:24:43.51] INTERVIEWER: OK. The question is, how much longer are the two of you going to let George do that to you? Now you are moving into a new house and I see that as a fresh

beginning. Now, if George is going take over the job of letting helping your son straighten out, in conjunction with me, is that agreeable to you?

[00:25:07.91] What more needs to be done in terms of you? Because I'm concerned about you being worried about him, about you were getting upset. Because you have a lot of stuff on your mind now. You're moving. You've got a lot of things you're doing. You got your job. There's a lot of responsibility there. And I'm so concerned about you being over-worried.

[00:25:27.95] SUBJECT 1: Because she can't put him out. She can't stand the thought of him being in the street like a derelict, or starting to steal. That's her problem. She's got to be strong. And if he's not going to help myself I don't want an invalid around the house. I mean, if he didn't have arms or legs, I mean, that's different.

[00:25:47.66] SUBJECT 2: You know what I thought, I thought I'll leave him and I take him.

[00:25:53.10] SUBJECT 1: You know what I thought? I was going to do that. I was going to let-- I was going to leave her and have her take him.

[00:26:00.88] INTERVIEWER: You know what I think? That's the shittiest idea I have ever heard.

[00:26:09.32] SUBJECT 2: I know it is.

[00:26:11.75] SUBJECT 1: That's what I feel too.

[00:26:14.03] INTERVIEWER: OK. Now what can your husband do for you to ease the worry about your son.

[00:26:22.50] SUBJECT 2: He can't do it. He has to do it. It's what he does.

[00:26:26.37] INTERVIEWER: I'm going to work with George separately and we're going to meet together. Now what can your husband do for you? He's going to start taking care of Georgie now. So he's going to start helping him and talking to him and stuff, and checking him out all that kind of stuff. What can he do for you? What can your husband do for you?

[00:26:46.82] SUBJECT 2: He can't do nothing for me. He can't. I mean I feel I can do a better job than him. I feel I'm the only one can do it.

[00:26:54.78] SUBJECT 1: I don't know. I'm stuck there. I don't know what you mean

[00:26:57.61] SUBJECT 2: I feel I can do a better job than you.

[00:26:59.82] SUBJECT 1: A job with Georgie?

[00:27:00.79] SUBJECT 2: Well, I feel I can.

[00:27:01.88] INTERVIEWER: There we have it. And you're saying that you're the one that can do the job. You don't want to give over charge to your husband you're saying he's going blow it and kick Georgie out of the house. And then you are going to get upset and leave with Georgie.

[00:27:14.37] SUBJECT 2: Well, that is what I think I would do. But I don't know that I can manage it.

[00:27:17.23] INTERVIEWER: OK. But what I'm saying is that's how your mind is running right? That's how your imagination goes. And I'm telling you, George senior has already said it that because he's a man, he understands his son's problem and what he needs in his life better than you can, even though you are his mother.

[27:36] [“Later in the interview” text on screen.]

[00:27:37.62] NARRATOR: The therapist perceives with the assumption that what he would like to have happen is what the parents would like to have happen. He defines the parenting job as interfering with a husband and wife pleasure. The fact that such interference occurs does not make the parents willing to shift from the parenting issue to the husband and wife issue.

[00:27:54.45] As the therapist states the goal of the parents becoming closer as husband and wife, there are significant pauses and indications that they are more comfortable dealing with each other through the problem son.

[00:28:05.79] INTERVIEWER: You want to get him straightened out so you can get closer to your wife? Is that what you're saying?

[00:28:08.61] SUBJECT 1: If he was straightened out, I'd raise him again from the time he was a child in the new house.

[00:28:11.53] INTERVIEWER: If he was straightened out you could get closer to your wife. That's what you're saying?

[00:28:18.16] SUBJECT 1: Naturally, if there's contentment in the house, peace and contentment, then definitely everything would be straightened out.

[00:28:26.62] INTERVIEWER: And is that what you want?

[00:28:28.65] SUBJECT 2: Well, I want that with him. Yeah, but it's not going to be. It's not going to be. Unless he's there, unless he's all right. I mean because I just don't feel right and nothing else matters to me

[00:28:39.10] INTERVIEWER: I know. I know. OK. But that's where we want to go. We want to get him straightened out and the two of you closer.

[00:28:45.88] SUBJECT 1: Definitely.

[00:28:48.29] INTERVIEWER: Like you pointed out, they are wound up in each other, you know, the two of them, they depend on each other.

[00:28:55.88] NARRATOR: It is better for the therapist to receive the hesitation of the husband and wife as indications to him that he has work to do to bring them together. These are not messages, which merely report how they feel, but are guides to the therapist and should be received that way. The therapist continues on this issue by projecting them into the future.

[00:29:18.05] INTERVIEWER: OK. So let's say he gets a job and he's been working for about a month. Everything is going fine. What do you want then? I want you to tell George, what do you want George to do then?

[00:29:31.52] SUBJECT 1: Save his money.

[00:29:32.81] INTERVIEWER: Tell him. Tell him.

[00:29:35.07] SUBJECT 1: Save your money. Get what you want. The things you say you want. That'll be great, wonderful. Give your mother some money for the food and that's it.

[00:29:47.74] INTERVIEWER: You want him to leave at home?

[00:29:49.11] SUBJECT 1: You got your room.

[00:29:50.95] INTERVIEWER: You want him to live at home?

[00:29:52.61] SUBJECT 1: Yeah. As long as he's-- he can stay with us the rest of his life. I mean, we want to see him get married.

[00:29:57.49] SUBJECT 3: They don't have nobody.

[00:29:58.21] INTERVIEWER: But your wife disagrees.

[00:30:00.38] SUBJECT 2: No. I don't want him married.

[00:30:01.76] SUBJECT 1: She doesn't want him to get married. She wants him with her the rest of her life. You misunderstood. She wants him the rest of his life and I do too as long as his straight.

[00:30:11.57] INTERVIEWER: You want him to live with you for the rest of your life?

[00:30:13.32] SUBJECT 2: Why not?

[00:30:13.92] SUBJECT 3: Like I told you Sam, long as I'm straight.

[00:30:16.30] INTERVIEWER: But what about him getting married and having a family so you can be grandparents.

[00:30:20.67] SUBJECT 2: Well, I mean, if it happens, I mean, what I'm going to do about it? But I prefer that he stays.

[00:30:26.00] SUBJECT 1: Suppose I become senile, I start becoming senile. [INAUDIBLE].

[00:30:28.60] SUBJECT 2: Especially as to having children, I don't want any of my children to have children.

[00:30:32.13] INTERVIEWER: Why not?

[00:30:33.06] SUBJECT 2: I just don't.

[00:30:34.93] INTERVIEWER: Let me understand this now you want have to take care of him for the rest of your life.

[00:30:40.47] SUBJECT 1: I don't want to take care of him.

[00:30:42.57] INTERVIEWER: I thought you had to feed him and everything.

[00:30:44.41] SUBJECT 2: I have to feed myself and my husband what's one more?

[00:30:46.94] SUBJECT 1: If he's ready to go.

[00:30:48.88] SUBJECT 2: I mean, I mean, it's up to him. I'm not insisting.

[00:30:53.98] INTERVIEWER: But what you're saying though, is you prefer to have him stay with you for the rest of your life.

[00:30:58.20] SUBJECT 1: No. She prefers him not to get married.

[00:30:59.25] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. Let's find out.

[00:31:00.52] SUBJECT 2: No. I mean, if he decides that he wants to go on his own. OK. I mean and everything's OK. That's good. He could have a place of his own. I can understand his got things that he would want to do that his not going to be able to do in my house.

[00:31:18.28] INTERVIEWER: That would be all right with you then?

[00:31:19.98] SUBJECT 2: That would be all right.

[00:31:21.25] INTERVIEWER: And how about you?

[00:31:22.47] SUBJECT 1: Certainly.

[00:31:23.63] INTERVIEWER: So that's a goal, then?

[00:31:25.23] SUBJECT 1: Yes. It's a goal. That's his goal. Our goal is that he straightens things out. That's our goal.

[31:32] [Pause in video.]

[00:31:32.05] NARRATOR: The therapist by straightforward persistence, is persuading the parents that they will have to give up their son and deal with each other. Even though, as the son says, they feel if they don't have anyone else but the son. The persistence through the hour ultimately pays off as will be shown. At this point the therapist physically move the son out of their marriage again.

[00:31:55.48] INTERVIEWER: Sit next to me.

[00:31:55.87] SUBJECT 3: Hey. This is ridiculous. I see this all the time.

[31:57] [Young man moves to sit next to the therapist.]

[00:31:58.76] INTERVIEWER: We are going to watch this now. Hold on. Hold on. I just want you out of it. And will the two of you as parents, please discuss what you have in mind for your son and come to an agreement. About whether or not, specifically, what you have in mind as an idea for the future for George. Now I want you to tell your wife, don't tell me.

[00:32:23.72] SUBJECT 1: Well, the only thing we disagree about is that she doesn't want him to get married. Even she feels that if he was straight that he'd want to find a girl.

[00:32:31.13] SUBJECT 2: How can you say you don't want someone to get married when they don't even have a girl. There isn't any girl present. There never was anything of this, or close to this. How can I know how I really--

[00:32:40.51] INTERVIEWER: Hold on. Hold on.

[00:32:42.46] SUBJECT 2: I know the one he was close with, the one who started all this shit.

[00:32:45.92] INTERVIEWER: Now you are talking to your son again instead of to your husband.

[32:48] [“Later in the interview” text on screen.]

[32:49] All right you want him in a good environment in is on apartment.

[00:32:51.62] SUBJECT 1: Right.

[00:32:52.17] INTERVIEWER: That's what you want?

[00:32:53.27] SUBJECT 2: Yes.

[00:32:53.77] INTERVIEWER: OK. And that's OK with you? And you are willing to work towards that?

[00:33:00.38] SUBJECT 2: Towards what?

[00:33:03.32] INTERVIEWER: Towards making sure that he's prepared so he doesn't leave prematurely. That when leaves, you know that your husband has helped him with the finances and helped going over showing him how much he needs. And then giving him your blessing.

[33:19] [Pause in video.]

[00:33:20.24] NARRATOR: Although some therapists think of the problem as one where parents hold onto a child. It is best to keep aware that the child also holds on to the parent. When the parents sound like they're willing for the son to leave, he responds with a certain reluctance.

[00:33:34.55] SUBJECT 3: Much as they don't need me, they think they don't need me, they're going to need me.

[00:33:38.91] SUBJECT 2: Why?

[00:33:39.35] SUBJECT 1: Why?

[00:33:41.12] SUBJECT 3: You don't know yet.

[00:33:43.87] SUBJECT 2: You must have some idea George, I mean what are trying to do scare me or something? I mean, like you know I got some kind of cancer or something and I'm going to die?

[00:33:51.67] SUBJECT 1: You think I may drop dead and your mother may need you.

[00:33:54.06] SUBJECT 2: Oh. I would love to be in my own apartment.

[00:33:56.30] INTERVIEWER: Can you tell your son that you don't need him?

[00:33:57.97] SUBJECT 2: I don't.

[00:34:00.09] INTERVIEWER: OK. Tell him that. Tell him that.

[00:34:01.99] SUBJECT 2: I don't think anybody needs anybody if you have yourself.

[00:34:04.54] INTERVIEWER: Tell George you don't need him.

[00:34:06.35] SUBJECT 2: I told him that. I told him coming up in the car. Right. I don't need you, George.

[00:34:11.63] INTERVIEWER: Now tell him in the straightest way possible that you do not need him. That when he is straight and together you don't want him around because you don't need him.

[00:34:18.94] SUBJECT 1: We love him but what we don't need him. He needs himself.

[00:34:21.49] SUBJECT 3: Now.

[00:34:22.36] SUBJECT 1: No. Later.

[00:34:23.48] SUBJECT 2: You need yourself all the time.

[00:34:25.71] SUBJECT 1: We need each other.

[00:34:26.37] INTERVIEWER: But you want him to live with you and take care of you? Is that what you want?

[00:34:29.27] SUBJECT 2: Not for the rest of his life.

[00:34:30.56] INTERVIEWER: You don't want that?

[00:34:31.43] SUBJECT 2: No. Not when we are two old people. How's he going to benefit from two old people.

[34:31] [Pause in video.]

[00:34:40.91] NARRATOR: This third interview was a turning point in the therapy. Early in the interview, mother was saying this kind of thing about sons who lived with their mothers.

[00:34:50.57] SUBJECT 2: You know, there are so many families, where the son are still with them and they're happy. But these boys they come and go as they please and sometimes they don't even come home for weekends. I know a boy, he works with my other son and his aunt works in my place.

[00:35:05.82] He must be 28 or 30 years old and he still lives with his mother and father. And he would never leave his mother and father, maybe because he feels they need him because they're older, but he has older sisters who are married. He has no problem there.

[35:23] [Pause in video.]

[00:35:23.46] NARRATOR: Toward the end of the interview after the persistent effort by the therapist the mother expresses the issue this way.

[00:35:29.28] SUBJECT 2: Maybe if you would talk to Donald and see how miserable he his being with his mother. That he wishes we could put his mother away. That's really how Donald honestly feels. Oh. It's not that he don't love her. He has no mind of his own. None at all. Oh.

And Donald he would love to have been married and he could have been married and so could Robert. Robert don't even want be in the house where is mother was.

[00:35:53.14] SUBJECT 1: Donald was miserable in his house.

[00:35:54.95] SUBJECT 2: He's so unhappy. Donald is pathetic. All that laughing and joking it's all a front. Let's talk to Donald and see how he feels.

[00:36:03.89] SUBJECT 1: He's relieved, he's happy he's relaxed.

[00:36:05.88] SUBJECT 3: He's just getting payback for everything he did.

[00:36:07.71] SUBJECT 2: What do you know what Donald did?

[00:36:09.00] SUBJECT 3: And that's how I'll be paid back too.

[00:36:10.49] SUBJECT 2: You don't know anything that Donald did.

[00:36:12.17] SUBJECT 3: I'll have to be paid back.

[00:36:12.80] SUBJECT 2: I don't know anything that Donald did.

[00:36:13.94] SUBJECT 3: All the shit I'm doing, I've gotta to pay back something.

[36:18] [“The seventh interview” text on screen.]

[00:36:18.10] NARRATOR: The family has shifted from a discussion of how the son should live at home to how we should leave, while he expresses doubts about that. The interviews continue to focus on a job and school and disengagement from the parents. The parents are required to talk more to each other. First, about the son and then about other aspects of their life. Three weeks later in interview number seven, the progress continues.

[36:40] [Older man, older woman, young man and middle aged man sit in a circle and speak.]

[00:36:41.56] INTERVIEWER: Your son had tremendous cravings for heroin and he's no longer taking heroin that mean that big changes are taking place. That's what it means. And it means that what you're doing at home and what we're doing here is helping him get on his feet.

[00:36:55.82] SUBJECT 1: That's what I say too.

[00:36:58.51] SUBJECT 2: I don't want you to be with this boy.

[00:37:00.26] SUBJECT 3: I go with who I want to go with.

[00:37:02.25] SUBJECT 2: And see this upsets me. Because I don't like this boy.

[00:37:05.92] INTERVIEWER: You're not going to go out him.

[00:37:07.34] SUBJECT 2: No. But he's going entice him again. He has ways you can't imagine how.

[00:37:12.93]

[00:37:13.20] SUBJECT 1: [INAUDIBLE], Marge, that's his problem.

[00:37:14.53] SUBJECT 2: He really is an evil person.

[00:37:15.70] INTERVIEWER: Listen to what your husband is saying. Tell your wife again.

[00:37:18.18] SUBJECT 1: That's his problem. If he doesn't come home one night, that's his problem.

[00:37:21.48] SUBJECT 3: Why?

[00:37:21.89] INTERVIEWER: What do you mean?

[00:37:22.96] SUBJECT 1: What I mean, I don't like him being out overnight. If he's going to be living with us and under treatment, I don't want him to be out overnight.

[00:37:29.59] INTERVIEWER: All right. So--

[00:37:30.38] SUBJECT 1: That's all

[00:37:30.47] INTERVIEWER: --let's make a rule about it.

[00:37:31.56] SUBJECT 2: Well I told him that told,

[00:37:32.80] SUBJECT 3: No. No. You're not making no rules for no 26

[00:37:35.12] SUBJECT 2: But we got rules over here George. Me and your father have to come here. We have things we have to do to help you.

[00:37:42.39] INTERVIEWER: Hey, George could you stop grooming yourself for just a minute for that heavy date you got?

[00:37:45.08] SUBJECT 3: I ain't got no date, I'm here to talk about myself.

[00:37:49.83] INTERVIEWER: Your folks are saying they want to stay out overnight.

[00:37:52.21] SUBJECT 3: Yeah. So? That's one reason why I'm going to getting my place sooner than I think. You don't need me. You don't You don't need me for this work I'm doing. You can just tell me, you don't need me.

[00:38:02.87] INTERVIEWER: How'd you hear it that way?

[00:38:03.61] SUBJECT 3: That's what I heard.

[00:38:04.23] INTERVIEWER: How do you figure?

[00:38:04.97] SUBJECT 3: Because if I do the work for them, I'm going to go out.

[00:38:07.56] INTERVIEWER: They're not saying you can't go out.

[00:38:08.73] SUBJECT 3: Overnight.

[00:38:09.44] INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Right. That's what they get excited about.

[00:38:14.27] NARRATOR: As the parents and the son face the issue of separation, it becomes more real to them. There is no relapse and the improvement, continuous. Three weeks later, the young man is working and making plans to go to school and to move out to his own apartment. One might predict that the parents would develop a sadness, as well as, more conflict with each other at this time of separation from the son. They talk about separating or possibly substituting someone else for the son.

[38:25] [“The ninth interview” text on screen.]

[38:37] [Older man, older woman, young man and middle aged man sit in a circle and speak.]

[00:38:39.11] SUBJECT 3: I've had enough of that freaking air it makes me sick. I'm going to move up to the east and get me a nice little place somewhere up there and I'll just go to work from there. They'll even know where am at. There would be a phone booth in the apartment building, whatever I'm in you just call me if you need help or something.

[00:38:54.53] INTERVIEWER: OK. So the first thing then is for him to get a job.

[00:38:56.96] SUBJECT 1: And the second thing is for her to change your mind about not coming back anymore.

[00:39:01.77] SUBJECT 2: I'm not coming for the next couple of weeks. Youse can go.

[00:39:05.90] INTERVIEWER: OK. George. Could you excuse us for just a minute now? I appreciate it. OK. Look you can take your college book. And I'll talk to you alone and will discuss some things. Maybe I got some pointers. Because I used to work in school. You don't have to come all the time. I'll give you a breather. If you think that's the best thing. Because I think you got-- despite the fact that you and George agitate each other I think you've had a very big influence on him getting better. [INAUDIBLE].

[00:39:38.56] SUBJECT 2: Well, I can't take no more I've got news for you.

[00:39:40.75] INTERVIEWER: And what is it you can't take anymore?

[00:39:42.04] SUBJECT 2: Anything. I'm tired. I just want to be left alone.

[00:39:49.04] INTERVIEWER: How come you never went to that place in New Jersey, dancing with your husband?

[00:39:53.11] SUBJECT 2: Where?

[00:39:54.53] INTERVIEWER: What's the name of the place you were telling us about?

[00:39:58.81] SUBJECT 2: Oh. I don't know.

[00:40:05.39] INTERVIEWER: You just want to be left alone? Huh?

[00:40:06.86] SUBJECT 2: Yeah.

[00:40:13.75] INTERVIEWER: You and your husband are at your wits end.

[00:40:19.08] SUBJECT 2: You're just finding that out?

[00:40:20.32] INTERVIEWER: I'm not finding that out. Look. I told your husband something on the phone when I talked to him the other day. That one of the problems your son has is that he's constantly afraid that the two of you are going to break up.

[00:40:36.68] SUBJECT 2: Well maybe that will bring him right out of it. I've been thinking about that.

[00:40:40.40] INTERVIEWER: This is his greatest fear.

[00:40:42.00] SUBJECT 2: Why?

[00:40:42.81] INTERVIEWER: Why? Because he feels responsible for it. This is his greatest fear.

[00:40:46.69] SUBJECT 2: He apparently would be responsible.

[00:40:48.20] INTERVIEWER: I don't think so. Why would he be responsible?

[00:40:50.29] SUBJECT 2: You don't? Well you know. I don't know. But any time that, that boy has been in the hospital or he ain't been home we get along fine.

[00:40:58.98] INTERVIEWER: You get along better when he's not home?

[00:41:00.01] SUBJECT 2: Yeah. That's right.

[00:41:01.76] INTERVIEWER: Is that true? George? Is that true?

[00:41:04.69] SUBJECT 1: I'm a little confused.

[00:41:05.98] SUBJECT 2: Only when he's in the hospital not when he's anywhere else. Because when he's somewhere else then I'm nervous and I'm worrying where is he?

[00:41:12.26] INTERVIEWER: OK. Right. When he's in the hospital.

[41:15] [Pause in video.]

[00:41:16.52] NARRATOR: This is a typical reaction in the families of disturbed young people. When the child is in the hospital, the family and parental marriage is stable. Treatment stabilizes the family when custody is used. It is only with normal behavior that action takes place that makes it possible for the family to change.

[00:41:34.81] INTERVIEWER: So that's why it's his greatest fear. You know that when he's not around the house and making sure that the two of you are living together in some kind of crazy way. This is his greatest fear that he's going to be responsible for it. The two of you breaking up. This is a tremendous fear he lives with. You can't imagine how powerful it is.

[00:41:57.37] SUBJECT 1: I don't know what she's going to accomplish by even thinking about us breaking up.

[00:42:00.14] INTERVIEWER: We'll find out.

[00:42:01.34] SUBJECT 2: This don't have nothing to do with you. It's me I'm thinking about me. Oh. You have a fine time. You don't worry about a thing. You come and go as you please. Do what you want. I just want an out. I'm going to my brother. I don't know where you think I'm going. I hope you don't think running away with somebody.

[00:42:21.67] SUBJECT 1: I wish you would. You know [INAUDIBLE].

[00:42:23.52] SUBJECT 2: You wish I would.

[00:42:24.55] SUBJECT 1: I swear to god in heaven.

[00:42:26.41] SUBJECT 2: Well, there ain't anybody.

[00:42:28.15] SUBJECT 1: Maybe you should find somebody because they're all going to have a better life than you've had. Believe me. You definitely do Madge. My word of honor you deserve somebody.

[00:42:35.85] SUBJECT 2: We feel sorry for one another.

[00:42:38.34] SUBJECT 1: I don't feel sorry for you. That's stupid.

[00:42:40.58] INTERVIEWER: And tell Madge why it's stupid. I don't think she's made it clear. Why is it stupid for her to leave?

[00:42:45.08] SUBJECT 1: I think it would be greatest thing in the world if she finds somebody. Maybe have a love affair also.

[00:42:50.30] INTERVIEWER: You want her to have a love affair?

[00:42:52.51] SUBJECT 2: Yeah. I could have a love affair with this all piled up inside me. Right?

[00:42:56.08] SUBJECT 1: That's what you need.

[00:42:57.88] SUBJECT 2: I need some other jerk.

[00:42:59.98] SUBJECT 1: We get some of that out of your body and your mind.

[00:43:02.87] SUBJECT 2: Would it? That's for you. Not for me.

[00:43:05.15] INTERVIEWER: I don't believe it. You're telling your wife to go have a love affair and she's saying no. That's a strange discussion.

[00:43:15.64] SUBJECT 2: Well that's the easiest thing to do.

[00:43:17.45] INTERVIEWER: What's the easiest thing?

[00:43:18.65] SUBJECT 2: To go out and find somebody. It's easy for a girl.

[00:43:22.25] INTERVIEWER: But you haven't done it, though.

[00:43:23.69] SUBJECT 2: No I don't care to. And he knows if I did he'd be the first one to know about it because I would leave, I wouldn't make a fool out of him and out of myself.

[00:43:35.20] INTERVIEWER: But you haven't done it.

[00:43:36.94] SUBJECT 2: No. I'm not interested.

[00:43:42.12] NARRATOR: Although one might expect the problem between the parents as the son becomes more independent or even between mother and son. It is more surprising to find that the father becomes particularly upset as the son is about to leave.

[43:50] [“The tenth interview” text on screen.]

[43:52] One should never underestimate how involved a supposedly peripheral father can be. The following week, the therapists sees father and son alone says mother wants to rest.

[44:00] [Middle aged man, older man and young man sit together.]

[44:04] SUBJECT 1: I'm so freaking fed up. He's giving me hell.

[00:44:06.90] INTERVIEWER: Right.

[00:44:09.13] SUBJECT 3: I'm not giving nobody hell.

[00:44:10.12] SUBJECT 1: You think you're not giving hell?

[00:44:11.15] SUBJECT 3: Who said I'm a jackass and you're going to be a jackass the rest of your life?

[00:44:15.51] SUBJECT 1: That's the only saying you've saying all night.

[00:44:17.21] SUBJECT 3: That's all I dream about.

[00:44:18.38] SUBJECT 1: That's all? My goodness. That's all you dream about. What a terrible statement that is. He's a jackass. I'm a jackass. His going to be jackass just like me the rest of his life. In order words I'm a stupid ass. I'll admit it.

[00:44:30.82] INTERVIEWER: How do you think that makes your son feel?

[00:44:32.66] SUBJECT 1: He says it.

[00:44:33.67] INTERVIEWER: Makes him feel bad. Right?

[00:44:35.17] SUBJECT 1: Like a jackass. He's a jackass, like me.

[00:44:37.59] INTERVIEWER: It makes him feel bad that his father talks about himself that way. See, more than what you're thinking about him, it makes him feel bad about you.

[00:44:44.16] SUBJECT 1: You're 25 years old. I'm 50. I'm 25 years older than you are. And all I've got left is a few more laps. You've got everything ahead of you.

[00:44:51.51] SUBJECT 3: Few more laps. You've got more than a few more laps.

[00:44:53.77] INTERVIEWER: You've got more than a few laps. Come on. You've got a couple good golf games.

[00:44:58.91] SUBJECT 1: Yeah, I've got a few good golf games.

[00:45:00.79] INTERVIEWER: What do you shoot in golf anyway?

[00:45:02.95] SUBJECT 1: A woman beat me this Sunday. 21 handicap from an 18. She beat the shit out of me.

[00:45:09.59] INTERVIEWER: You were off that day? Look, I agree with you. It's no good for anybody for him being at home. I agree with that I think you're doing the right thing, but see we've got a plan so he gets out of there financially OK.

[00:45:22.18] SUBJECT 3: Look, tomorrow I can be out of there, packed up.

[00:45:24.57] INTERVIEWER: No. See, I don't want it done that way.

[00:45:26.28] SUBJECT 3: When you get out. You think you're going to get out, you just get out as fast as possible. So there ain't no more complication.

[00:45:31.60] INTERVIEWER: There's nothing. There's no more complication if you leave in two weeks. Now what's the complication?

[00:45:35.03] SUBJECT 3: He need me two weeks more like he needs the Black Plague.

[00:45:40.39] George. Do you think you can stand your son for two more weeks? I Mean, if we know that is moving out and he's got a room and you know you see he's got his money situation OK. You think you can live with him for two more weeks? You know what I'm saying? I want it done right.

[00:45:57.20] SUBJECT 1: I definitely know what you're saying.

[00:46:00.21] NARRATOR: Although the family was interviewed once or twice more, the therapy was essentially over and the son moved out of the house. In a follow-up six months later, it was learned that the parents have briefly separated. The son moved back home again and the parents went back together. The young man had cut off this previous friends in the drug world, was working and had stopped the use of heroin. Two years later the young man had a responsible job and was doing well, while still leaving with his parents. Four years after therapy ended, another follow-up was done. The young man was still off heroin and still had a responsible position. He had moved to an apartment of his own. Later he moved to another state. The parents remained together.

[46:15] [Credits roll on screen.

Father- Fred Forest

Mother- Louise Martin

Addict- Cotter Smith

Son 2- Dave Driscoll

Son 3- Robert Spences

Therapist- Jack Hrkach

Assistant Director- Dorita Madanes

Director- Claudio Madanes]