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Kashrut: Introduction and subject matter

● The Domain studied:

Kashrut= laws of permissible and forbidden foods.

Includes: the rules of meat, fruits and vegetables, sea creatures, birds,

insects, mixing meat and dairy, bi-products of kosher and non-kosher

animals

● The characteristics we were looking for:

Finding the shape of the interviewees knowledge

Their ability to explain what kosher means

What knowledge models do they use to determine if something is kosher

or not kosher?

The ability to explain how they came to their answers?

How did their knowledge of facts differ from their ability to apply those

facts to practical situations

We expected to see more production systems such as: ”if this has fins

and scales, then it is kosher”

● Class Concepts we thought we might see:

○ models of cognition

■ Schema

■ Maybe case based reasoning.

■ Production systems.

○ conceptual change

○ novice to expert

■ not that we expected them to turn miraculously from novices to

experts but will the older interviewee be more of an expert compared

to the younger one who we would assume would hold the role of the

novice (perhaps both would be novices).

○ Development

■ We thought we might see differences that will be a result of the age

difference (but did not focus on them although we are aware to their

existence).

Netta Jansenson

Commented [MK1]: The content is fine here—but this was supposed to be a paper, not a bullet point outline!

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Procedure:

Sabjects of our interviews: Tehilla (8 years old), Tamar (6 years old)

■ Both share same background, school, teachers etc.

■ Tehilla demonstrated more maturation, so her mind could probably

wrap around concepts in a more abstract way, faster at applying

concepts

Ou r Protocol:

Teaching Goal

To identify what makes a food kosher, how to know how something is kosher, and how

we can divide kosher food into three types. To be able to discuss the relationship between

the three types of kosher food.

First Task: sorting pictures of food into

groups

Ask student: can you separate these foods into

different groups?

student can do this however she chooses, no

right or wrong

What different groups did you make?

What foods did you put in this group?

Why did you choose to put these foods in this

group? (for each food)

Can you group them in any other way? Why?

How?

This task shows us that they know what

each food is, and gets them warmed up.

This is an easy task, and there is no right

or wrong answer -- they can get

comfortable and creative and get talking.

Next we would move on to something

more subject matter related, now that

they feel more comfortable and have

practice.

S econd task: group the foods into kosher and

not - kosher

Which group is kosher? Which is not kosher?

Why is this food in this group? (for both kosher

and not kosher)

What makes this food kosher? not kosher?

Third task: make groups for kosher foods

Let’s take away the not-kosher food for now.

What’s left?

Can you separate the kosher food that’s left into

different groups?

What are each of the groups you made?

Why is this food in this group? (Here we can

start to pull out terms like meat, dairy, parve)

Trying to get to the definition of: Meat,

Dairy and Parve

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Are there any other groups you can make? Why?

How?

What makes this food kosher?

Fourth task: thinking beyond the items/cards

Can you tell me 2 more foods that would fit into

each group?

Why do those foods fit into this group?

Asking for additional information from

the interviewees.

Fifth task: What makes something kosher?

Signs of Kashrut for each of the above

groups

S ixth task: mixing meat and dairy, mixing parve

and meat/dairy

Questions such as: why can’t we eat meat and

dairy together?

How do you know?

Can I eat these foods together (parve+parve,

parve+meat, parve+dairy)

Why? Why not?

Things that can turn kosher to not kosher

We thought that during the teaching period we will be able to go deeper into the laws of

kashrut and with Tehilla touch the subject of mixing meat and dairy as well as bi-

products. We used the pictures (we set some extras from the pre-interview) as well as a

paper and pen we gave the interviewees in order to draw the kashrut symbols they

brought up.

Observations

Point 1: The older the interviewee was the greater was her exposure to the

topic of Kashrut.

Tamar knew the main rules of Kashrut but did not apply them correctly.

We expected a stronger production systems (rules for kashrut)

however she could repeat rule, but had no effect on her application.

“Mommy’s rule” was stronger.

Schema was most powerful in the sense of asking: have I seen this?

Do people say “don’t eat that it’s not kosher”. But not when it came

to the laws of Kashrut.

She had mistakes in identifying food items, we didn’t correct here

Commented [MK2]: I like the table above—it’s clear and explains what you were trying to do well, but this is not the right format for a paper!

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She used scripts – grocery store and shopping -- this is what we buy,

but they were not so clear to her.

She even insisted on eating a cheeseburger at home.

Lacked confidence to explain her answers, did better when Mommy

interviewed her.

Held on to bits of knowledge even when she was not sure how they

fit (such as the first animal she mentioned as being kosher was a

Giraffe).

Tehilla was more outgoing, knew the rules and could apply them to different food

items even those which she wasn’t familiar with. (even through the process of

sorting she sorted by food and drinks or by Brachot) Tehilla’s schema was much

more settled and complete.

Point 2: The teaching and follow up interviews - what do they remember?

Both remembered much of what was taught although Tamar need more time to

focus and remember.

Point 3: New material - was it retained?

We felt that Tehilla’s knowledge was more organized than Tamar’s, so had much easier

time recalling what she learned on the second week. Tamar memorized it for short term,

so she was able to answer questions during second interview right after the teaching part,

but had more trouble recalling what she learned in the following week’s interview.

Analysis:

Point 1: The older the interviewee was the greater was her exposure to

the topic of Kashrut.

Tehilla’s first interview while she tries to explain the law for kosher and non-

kosher animals:

N: what about this one? T: a squid D: o.k so how do we know this one is not kosher? T (measuring her words): this isn’t kosher because it’s a sea animal and also it doesn’t have fins or scales... A pig is not kosher because it has split hooves but it does not chew its’ cut. D: you just told me two different things. Lets start with the first one. Can you draw me a picture here? (D offers T a choice of two colors t picks the purple pen and gets a sheet to draw on) o.k

so you just told me two things: split hooves and chews cut. Can you draw me a picture of a pig? Tehilla draws a pig. D: show me on your animal – on your pig what makes it kosher, if you saw a pig how would you

know, what would you look for? T: if it chews the cut.

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D: What does it mean ‘ if it chews its’ cut? T: it chews its’ food over again D: so what would have happened if the pig ate a flower? T: The pig will just eat the flower and it will go to its’ stomach, if it chews its’ cut it has

three…four stomachs, it goes down to one stomach and comes back up and goes down to another one. D: o.k. so that’s called chewing its’ cut, does a pig chew its’ cut? T: no D: so what about…you drew also something else… T: I drew a split hoof, (circles the split hoof on her Pig picture) it has a split hoof but it doesn’t chew its’ cut, it has to have both in order to be kosher. D: so what if it has just one? T: It’s still not kosher because it needs both of them to be kosher

Tehilla was able to explain, draw and use the law of kosher animals. Even when she was

not sure about a certain animal, if she know we didn’t eat it she assumed it was missing

one of the Kashrut criteria’s . Her mental models and production systems were stronger

and realistic, while in Tamar’s case it was not so clear.

Tamar trying to explain the way of knowing if fruit and vegetables are kosher

(during first interview): Netta: how about these? (gathering some pictures), these are all what? Tamar: vegetables. Netta: How do I know they are Kosher? Tamar: cause it says. Netta: where? Tamar points at the vegetable. Rachel: It's written on the vegetable? (in surprise) Tamar smiles...no Netta: so how do you know? Tamar: It comes in a box. Netta: It comes in a box? Do you sometimes go shopping with mommy to get some vegetables and fruit? Tamar nods. Netta: for example, an apple? Do you get an apple for snack? Tamar nods. Netta: does the apple have a kosher mark? Tamar: no Netta: so how do you know it's kosher? Tamar moves her shoulders... Rachel: you just know? Netta: tell us what do you think Tamar thinks for a moment and with her hand covering her mouth says: You have to ask.

Commented [MK3]: What do you mean by mental models here? I think that you’re right that she has some pretty well developed knowledge but I think you need to unpack this a l;ittle more in terms of class…

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Netta: you have to ask? Who do you ask? Tamar: mommy Netta: mommy, o.k, and how does mommy know? Tamar: Tamar pauses and smile.... Netta: how do you think mommy knows? Tamar: the man told you (Netta happens to be Tamar's mommy) Netta: and how did the man tell me? Tamar moves her shoulders and says: He told everybody. Netta: he told everybody. who did he tell? Tamar: you Netta: he told me. but how did the man know to tell everybody? Who told the man? Tamar: you! Netta: I did? but I didn't know, the man had to tell me ?! Tamar doesn’t answer (she is moving a lot) what do you think, how did this man in the store know that these vegetables are kosher? Tamar: because he can ask the people that make those things. Netta: he can ask the people that make those things...how can he ask them? Where do those things come from to the store? Tamar: like from a farm, the trees and the ground.

The bottom line was: mommy knows what’s kosher of not. Tamar was not trying to apply

a rule that refers to fruit and vegetables but to processed items (kashrut symbol). Our first

impression was that: She knew the main rules of Kashrut but did not apply them

correctly. Tamar did not see at first conflicts such as eating meat and dairy together and

even insisted that she always eats her hamburger with cheese. Our overall impression was

that in her mind: "Mommy knows best" and this is how she will decide what is kosher or

not, and not the rules she learned, as seen in the following example:

Davita: picks one of the picture: let’s take a look at this one. Tamar: it's a hamburger. Davita: right, let’s look at the hamburger because I see there are lots of stuff in it. Netta: can you tell us what's in it? Tamar: Ketchup, peppers (actually pickles), mustard, cheese, hamburger, bread. Netta: and this is Kosher? Tamar nods Netta: you're sure Tamar: nods Netta: do we always eat our hamburger with mustard and ketchup and peppers, a bun and

cheese? Tamar: no Netta: what do you usually put in you hamburger? Tamar: ketchup and hamburger. Netta: Ketchup and hamburger, you don't put peppers? Tamar: no! Netta: why not? Tamar: because I don't like peppers.

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Netta: do you put mustard? Tamar: I don't like mustard Netta: how about cheese? You like cheese? Tamar nods. Netta: do you put cheese in your hamburger? Tamar nods happily. Netta: you do? Tamar continues to nod. Netta: well that's interesting.

Point 2: The teaching and follow up interviews - what do they remember?

From Tehilla’s teaching session:

D:...so that’s one rule. If it’s your animal, you’re not allowed to give it meat and dairy. You can give it non-kosher meat; I can give it pig meat or rabbit meat. I can give it not kosher cheese. But

I can’t give it both of them together. Remember we said with the hamburger: you can’t mix them, you also can’t eat them together. And another thing you can’t do with meat and dairy is you

can’t get benefit from that. Can you tell me what it means to get benefit?

T: Like it wouldn’t really be good if you sell it to a non-Jew. D: Benefit means it helps you, like it’s good for you.

T: Like you can make money by selling it. D: Interesting. So let’s say I’m a Jew. Tehillah wants to make a pizza store, and she says “You

know what, I want to make a not kosher pizza store because I just want to.” Would you be able to sell this kind of pizza at a not kosher pizza store?

T: No because we don’t really want the non-Jews to eat non-kosher. You don’t want to make a

benefit from it, by selling by getting money from something that is not kosher. D: Okay, so it’s a little different than just something not kosher. Let’s say it’s kosher meat and kosher cheese and you put them together.

T: You don’t want to sell something that you’re not allowed to eat, that is meat and dairy. D: Right, something that is meat and Dairy. So I could sell this (bacon), but I couldn’t sell this

(pepperoni pizza).

Tehilla’s post teaching interview: Interviewer(s): Can Miley (Rachel's dog) eat rabbit? Tehila: Yeah.

Interviewer(s): Why? Tehila: Because umm an animal is not a human and animal can eat any type of non-kosher food

but can mixed meat and dairy. Interviewer(s): I can’t give her a cheeseburger? Tehila: You can’t because you are mixing cheese and meat together (confident).

Interviewer(s): So I can’t give her it...oh man. Interviewer(s): She is going to eat matzah instead.

Interviewer(s): Can she have squid? Tehila: Yes. Interviewer(s): Can you have squid?

Commented [MK4]: It’s true that she seems to be generating a rule based on mommy, but it’s also the case that she has lots of experiences and bits and pieces of kosher information, even if not in a rule

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Tehila: No. Interviewer(s): Because it tastes disgusting?

Tehila: No, because it is not kosher...it does not have fins or scales. nterviewer(s): Last thing, how about marshmallows?

Tehila: Umm it depends some of marshmallows could not be kosher but some can be kosher. Interviewer(s): How are they any different from carrots? Tehila: Because umm they don’t grow from the ground they are made from ingredients (pause)

umm. Interviewer(s): And they are made.. how?

Tehila: And it depends they are made. Interviewer(s): So some of the ingredients can be non kosher. Tehila: Yes depends how they are made.

Interviewer(s): Can I own a cheeseburger store? Tehila: You don't want to make a benefit from mixing meat and dairy.

While teaching - new information came up from Tamar which she did not mentioned before. The information was labeled in her mind but she did not fully

comprehend it. The teaching process turned to be going over rules she knew and

less teaching of a new concept. Her knowledge came in pieces which she applied

randomly as and when she chose to. Or was it due to the fact she opened up to us

and felt more confident to demonstrate her additional knowledge on the subject?

We were under the impression that Tehilla had more options and confidence in

understanding the new material, as if it fit better with what she already knew. She also brought up the laws of waiting between eating meat and dairy (though they

were less clear to her when it came to eating dairy first and then meat). She

volunteered information about kashrut and brachot and it seemed that maybe as

part of "classroom schema" -: say as much as you know (brachot, etc.). She was

also more comfortable to ask when she did not know or understand.

Point 3: New material - was it retained?

Tehilla's follow-up interview (a week later): D: can I feed my dog lobster? T: yeah D: what if I want to open a restaurant and ... T: you shouldn’t put non-kosher food because you don’t want to make money by selling non kosher food. D: lets say, is there a difference between selling shrimp which is not kosher and meat and dairy

which is also not kosher? T: they are both not kosher and one of them lives in the sea and one of them is meat, one of them

is like from a shrimp that lives in the see, one of them is from pig or something lives on the land.

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D: so lets say this one lives in the sea and this one lives on the ground N: but if I have a restaurant for non Jewish people, non Jewish people that do not eat kosher?

Do non Jewish people eat kosher? T: no but still you can’t sell N: can I still sell them this? T: no because you don’t want to make money by making something to sell, you don’t want to use it. N: but Hahsem made this I didn’t make this T: you want to sell it to them to make money, you can’t use it to make money. D: what’s wrong with making money from it? T: you could sell it and people could pay you money. D: why is that a problem, I could sell baseball caps? T: because you are using it to do something else ammm that,,,to do something and,,, D: can you say it in another way I’m not sure I understand what your saying. T: that you can’t use it to do something else to get money and because you can become a millionaire by selling non-kosher food and D: is that a problem? T: yes, because you are trying to use something that you are not supposed to, you can’t use to make money, it’s like you are using something against what Hashem said to do something .

Tamar’s follow-up interview (a week later):

N: do you remember when we met last week we spoke about those food items (Tamar is nodding) do you remember what was the first thing you had to do?

Tamar nods: to make them in groups

N: according to what we learned last week, can you now make them into two groups? Tamar

starts organizing the pictures

N adds: all those pictures into just two groups

Netta repeats it when she sees Tamar stopped and looked hesitant.

it looks as if she is setting three groups: vegetables, bakes goods and non-kosher foods. then Tamar puts bananas and bacon together. When she is done there are more than two groups.

(It takes a full page of transcripts to get to the next point) Netta: we were talking about somethings that we eat, that some of them are...what's it called... Tamar: Kosher

N: Kosher, and some of them were ... Tamar: Not kosher!

N: do you think you can build two groups that one of them will be all the kosher things and will be all the non-kosher things?

Tamar nods and gets to work.

she picks the ham and cheese and puts it to one side and says: o.k. this is not kosher. R: wait which one is this?

Tamar: the Not kosher. R: why

Tamar: because it has cheese and it's meat and dairy

N: it has cheese, what's the problem with the cheese?

Tamar: we are not allowed to mix meat and dairy.

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ALL: O.K. Tamar continues her task putting shrimp and lobster in the non kosher pile.

she picks a picture of bacon not sure what it is. N: do you know what this is?

Tamar: no

N: this is bacon

Tamar: it's kosher?

N: it's made out of pig. Tamar places the picture with the non kosher items.

N: why did you put it there?

Tamar: because it comes from a pig. N: and what is the problem with pigs?

Tamar: They are not kosher.

Tamar did place the picture of pizza with peperoni in the kosher pile:

N: what's that (pizza with peperoni picture) T: pizza. it's not kosher N: it's not kosher? so why did you put it here? (Tamar removes the picture from her froup of kosher items) Why is it not kosher? can you show on the pictures why it's not kosher? T: because it is mixing meat and dairy. N: because it's mixing meat and dairy. R: where is the meat? T: points at the peperoni pieces R: what kind of meat is that? T: thinking.... N: so you remember what's it called? T: (hand over mouth) peperoni R: do tou remember where it comes from? T: pig N: so if you put it on a pizza. you can't T: eat N: and how about if it is a kosher hot dog if you cut it and put it on a pizza? T: no N: why not? T:we're not allowed to mix meat and dairy

From the beginning we saw that Tehilla’s knowledge was more organized than Tamar’s,

so she had much easier time recalling second week, Tamar memorized it for short term,

so was able to answer questions during second interview, but had more trouble recalling

the third interview.

Commented [MK5]: You are presenting this inf ormation from the interviews as long excerpts from the interviews that you then comment on, but I really need to see the reverse—I need to see you writing an analy sis first and foremost and then use smaller snippets of interview to justify your argument and make y our point.

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Tehilla knew right away what we were looking for while Tamar took much longer and

started the interview the same way she did a week before when she did not know our

expectations. However when we went into the details we taught such as byproducts from

a non-kosher animal Tamar remembered they were not kosher because their source was

not kosher. We thought that the fact that both girls were able to remember much of the

lesson was due to the fact that all the information was based on the knowledge they

already had prior to our interviews.

Tehilla is closer to an expert when it comes to Kashrut and Tamar was more of a novice,

and therefor she could do better than Tamar. Her knowledge was encoded in chunks

which she was able to put together in a better and faster way than her younger sister. Her

production system regarding which animal we will be allowed to eat was better.

If we look at Siegler’s work (Siegler, R. S. and Crowley, K. (1991). The microgenetic

method) Young children used different strategies even if they were taught the best way to

calculate certain math problems they chose to use any method that worked for them.

Tamar new the rules that apply to kosher and non-kosher animals and other foods but did

not use the rules consistently to determine what was kosher. Tamar’s operation fits his

conclusions. So maybe we can say her knowledge is chunked up but she couldn’t put the

pieces together because she doesn’t have the board picture (schema?).

What would I do differently?

Keep the interview process more focused and stay on target.

Relax and be patient and not jump to conclusions that I might not have been clear

and that’s why there is a delay in getting an answer.

Use more objects for the teaching part – something that could help especially

when dealing with a younger interviewee (such as pictures of a cow and the kosher

symbols).

Keep in mind this specific slide from my teacher’s presentation:

The problem is that what seems to us to be the same task, is really a

different task for a student. What seems to us to require learning one

set of simple rules, actually requires a number of coordinated changes

to knowledge

Commented [MK6]: That certainly helps…

Commented [MK7]: Correct.

Commented [MK8]: This is a good thought – I wish that you had expanded on these ideas throughout the paper! There’s a lot to say about this besides for the couple of sentences here.

Commented [MK9]: Yes!

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Tachlis

When we teach new materials and test our students and then complete our job,

but reviewing it throughout that year and the following years helps remember it

and add on to what the students learned based on past knowledge. So if we

make sure to use or incorporate “old” materials it might help our students build

a steadier and more profound knowledge. It puts the bits of pieces together.

If we talk about Kashrut it is not enough if the student has a list of rules they

need to be connected to prior knowledge and tie in. (In a younger age: we eat

only kosher food. Next step: what kind of foods are kosher? Next: what is the

difference between kosher and not? Things that are always kosher? Etc. each

year adds more details.)

There is an issue of maturity, not just education. If we teach certain concepts

too early they will be meaningless and probably won’t be used by our students.

There is a certain developmental stage that the learner needs to be in so he can

be capable of using the lessons he was taught. For example:

Students in younger grades (pre elementary and lower grades) should be taught

simply and consistently.so if we are teaching Chumash we should work more on

the structure of the pesukim, how to read them and understand their meaning

using basic rules of grammar. Midrashim and extra definitions to Peshat should

be added to advanced grades once they dealt successfully with the basics –

which would be the schema of a chumash lesson. (Later they will build a

schema for reading and understanding Rashi etc. which can perhaps be referred

to as a production system(?): Rashi has a problem with a word in the Pasuk, he

gives a solution to answer the question we should ask about the pasuk)

Teaching to deal with real life situations, not just by words but also by

experience – puts the knowledge into a more useful place. We are

incorporating other schemas of knowledge systems that will enforce our

knowledge and help us seek the right conclusions. For example:

Go to grocery store for shopping.

Have them explain to someone who knows nothing about kashrut.

Plan a party and pick food from a grocery list.

Go to a farm to learn where do fruits and vegetables come from.

Go to the zoo and identify kosher and not kosher animals by observing

them (so they also have a mental image of the kashrut signs in animals and

sea creatures and know what to look for in a store).

Commented [MK10]: Good point

Commented [MK11]: I’m not sure that this is true… and I certainly don’t think it follows from your study

Commented [MK12]: All excellent examples