kakisa lake, n.w.t. july 17, 1976 volume 69 - pwnhc kakisa l... · 2015. 1. 29. · mr. john w....

MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR ARIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS

CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY ANDTHE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES, and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAYTHAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS

WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIESFOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTALAND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION,OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE

PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

Kakisa Lake, N.W.T.July 17, 1976

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 69

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts byAllwest Reporting Ltd.

Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 CanadaPh: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378

www.allwestbc.com

APPEARANCES

Mr. Ian G. Scott, Q.C.Mr. Ian Waddell, andMr. Ian Roland for Mackenzie Valley

Pipeline Inquiry

Mr. Pierre Genest, Q.C. andMr. Darryl Carter, for Canadian Arctic

Gas Pipeline Lim-ited;

Mr. Alan Hollingworth andMr. John W. Lutes for Foothills Pipe-

lines Ltd.;

Mr. Russell Anthony andPro. Alastair Lucas for Canadian Arctic

Resources Committee

Mr. Glen Bell, for Northwest TerritriesIndian Brotherhood, andMetis Association of theNorthwest Territories.

INDEX PageWITNESSES:

Henry SIMBA 7924,7935,7947Philip SIMBA 7929Jim THOM 7946I. THOM 7949

Kakisa Lake, N.W.T.July 17, 1976

(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)(CHIEF A CANADIEN RESUMED AS INTERPRETER)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'llcall our hearing to order ladies and gentlemen. Thejob that I am doing is to find out as much as I banabout the people who live in the north, about the waythey live, about their hopes and their fears so that Ican tell the government what in the end is likely tohappen if they build a pipeline to bring gas from thearctic to the middle of the continent.

There are two companies --Arctic Gas and Foothills Pipe Lines. Each wants tobuild a pipeline that would go along the MackenzieValley and into the big cities and industries in thesouth where people need natural gas.

Now the government has saidthat if we build a natural gas pipeline through theMackenzie Valley, then we will be opening up a corridorand that an oil pipeline will be built after that. Sowhat we have to consider is the development of acorridor for gas and oil pipelines along the MackenzieValley.

Now, the government has askedme to come here to the north to find out from you aboutyour life and about your concerns for yourselves andfor the future. I have been travelling through thenorth for two years now and I think I have learned alot. I have been listening to people all over the

Allwest Reporting Ltd.Burnaby, B.C. 7920

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north; Indian people, Metis people, Inuit people andwhite people. This is one of the last places I'll bevisiting before I sit down to write my report and turnit in to Ottawa.

I should say that if a pipelineis built, there will be, we are told, thousands ofworkers needed to build it. We are told that many ofthose workers will be brought in from the south. We aretold that the cost of this pipeline will make it the mostexpensive project that private enterprise has everundertaken in the history of the world.

You are the people that livehere. Some of you in the Mackenzie Valley live close tothe route of the pipeline, others farther away. But allwill feel the impact if the pipeline is built. To giveyou an example of what I mean, we are told that they arebuilding a pipeline in Alaska. You've probably heardabout the pipeline they are building there. In the lasttwo years, 80,000 people have come to Alaska becausethey wanted to get work on the pipeline.

We are told that there are morepeople unemployed in Alaska now in the middle of pipelineconstruction than there were before the pipeline gotstarted. Now, nobody feels that 80,000 people are likelyto come into the Northwest Territories if a pipeline isbuilt here. But if a pipeline does go ahead, manythousands are likely to come or want to come. One of theroutes by which they would come would of course be theMackenzie highway which is just eight miles from yourvillage.


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So, we are trying figure outways of protecting villages like yours from an influxof people from the south if the pipeline does go ahead.We want to know how you feel about the pipeline, aboutemployment on the pipeline, about businessopportunities on the pipeline and about measures thatyou think might be taken to protect your village.

So, I am here to listen toyou. After Chief Canadien has done his best tointerpret what I have said, we'll go ahead. So, canyou tell them what I was just saying?(CHIEF CANADIEN TRANSLATES ABOVE)

HENRY SIMBA sworn:THE INTERPRETER: That was

Henry Simba, the Councillor for Kakisa Lake. He saidthere are times that he speaks and it seems that nobodylistens. He speaks for the people in town and nobodylistens and that since Mr. Berger is here and there isa lot of people here, he would like to say something.

We in Kakisa live here.Sometimes living here is hard. At the time that anIndian agent wanted these people to move to FortProvidence, at the time the old man sitting there,Philip Simba, was the Chief then. They didn't want tomove into Providence. They said this was their land,their hunting ground and they wanted to stay here.Proof of that is still here at the -- about four milesup along the shore there. They've got their old housesstill there and across the lake too.

That's why when the Indian


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Agent told then that he's going to move them toProvidence nobody wanted to move. They wanted to stayhere. You see the houses here, that's the original groupof people who had been here before. We're still here.

Sometimes living here ispretty hard. At the time that the old chief theredidn't want to move, I guess he had thought of thefuture of these people. So, I guess he had foreseenwhat was to happen. So they didn't move.

Here, they don't want foranything. They don't have to wait for fuel to makefire or anything like that. They didn't have to wailfor anything. They never had anything to do withwelfare. Their life is hard but they got by havingnets in the water, in the bay here and along the shore.This is what they get by on. This is how they live.

He said that the time whenthe Indian agents were trying to move them toProvidence they had come here a number of times tryingto persuade the old man to change his mind. But hesays he doesn't know what his father had thought orwhy, hut. they never persuaded him to move. He saidthat they wanted to live by their fishing lake. Beforethey built these houses along the shore here, they hadlived in Tathlina lake, in that area. At that time,they had a huge forest fire I guess and it killed mostof the fish in the water.

So they moved into this area.They established their little community here and it'swhat you see today. At the time when they were living


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at Tathlina Lake and all the fish had died in the water,drifted to the shore. There was dead fish all along thelake, on the shore. You couldn't drink the water sothey had to get water from the -- out on the swamps orwherever they could find the water.

When they moved, the dogs hadto run along the shore. Some of these dogs ate some ofthe fish and some of these dogs died as the result ofeating that fish. So, they made their way here andhere is where they established their little community.

He said when they got hereagain, the Indian agent came around again and told themto move to Providence again. Since they belong to theFort Providence band, they should go over there.However, the old man said "no", that they are peoplefrom this area and here is where they want to stay.Twice the Indian agent made some kind of a report orsomething to send to Ottawa for them. Finally aboutafter three summers, the Indian agent came and toldthem that they could cut logs and they can build ahouse for themselves. He said there was no carpenteraround to help them, nothing. These are the housesthat they built. The Indian agent -- Indian Affairsprovided the materials for them. There was nocarpenter. They didn't have any carpenter or anythingto build these houses.

He said that finally theysent a carpenter here. He started fooling around withthe houses and all that but he didn't stay too longbecause, you see his little monument there, the guy


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drowned in the water.This is just a part of our

story here in Kakisa. But he likes to say more to Mr.Berger.

Since you are here, you mightas well listen to other problems that we have. Therehas been talk-- he doesn't know who the people were, butthey have been around and they wanted to build a damhere by the falls. There is people that use KakisaRiver for fishing in the fall time from Kakisa Lake andalso from Fort Providence. Where the Kakis a Riverempties into Beaver Lake along the Mackenzie River,there is shallow water for quite a ways out into thelake. But if they, you know, build a clam here, thewater will get less and less shallow. There will he nofish for anybody and they can't even go fishing forwinter time. That's why they are against the buildingof the dam.

If they build a dam here, hewas told that the river will flood and above the groundthat we are sitting on now would flood at least tenfeet over the banks. This is the only high groundaround the lake because everywhere else it's flat.It's flat down that way and it's flat down that way.There's a lot of beaver living that way and there's alot of beaver this way. If they flood here, they'regoing to have to move again. If they build a dam,they've got electricity and that. They don't needthat. They've done without it so far and they don'tbother with it.


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THE COMMISSIONER: They don'tneed it here.

A Yes.Q In the village.A No, what they use is

just gas lamp and that's good enough for them.Q A gas lamp?A Yes.Q The electricity probably

won't be for Kakisa. It probably won't be forProvidence. It'll probably be for other largercommunities like Hay River and Yellowknife and Smithand around that area. It's going to damage our fishinggrounds and that, and we don't need it. It's not anecessary part of our life.

He said, you visit all thesehouses here and you won't find electric lights hangingon the ceiling or anything like that. They use candlesand gas lamps. They buy their own gas for the gaslamps and they don't need it. Nobody's going to comearound and dictate to them how they should live andstuff like that.

He said that if we had beenliving in town, had all the modern facilities likeeverybody else has, we wouldn't be sitting in a dimlittle room like this. You'll have a lot of light towrite your notes and that.

They built this place for theIndian agent. He had his office in the back here. Ifwe had been some place else with all the modern


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conveniences, then everybody wouldn't be crowded likethat in here.

He said he'll talk againlater. He like to thank you for listening to him. Hesaid maybe the old people here would like to saysomething also.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much Mr. Simba.

(WITNESS ASIDE)PHILIP SIMBA, sworn;THE INTERPRETER: He said I am

the oldest person here in this room. I'm from adifferent generation than these people are. I was bornaround the Nahanni area. I grew up at Fort Simpsonwith my grandfather. I am from that region.

He said that he lived withhis grandfather and he was about four years old when heseen the way that people live. The kind of life thatwe live had been pretty hard. He'd lived through it.What they lived on, there was no tents like you seetoday canvas tents. They had moose hide tents.

There was no canoes. Theymade their own birch bark canoes and they made theirown moose hide canoes. This was the kind of life thatthey had that he lived. He's seen it.

Everybody is out in the bushhunting and trapping all winter long. Come springtime orsummertime everyone would go to the town or wherever theyhad a trading post. That's where he has seen all thepeople gather. This is what he saw with his own eyes.


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He said at the time there wasno money, no dollars and cents like we see today. Theyhad beaver and it was referred to as skin. One skin,or it doesn't matter how much you had. A person couldgo into town and bring three or 500 skins, He spentmaybe one skin but there was actually no change orwhatever given back to him. This is the way that hefeels that the Hudson's Bay Company cheated the-peopleand took advantage of their ignorance.

The people suffered for thatbecause of the Hudson's Bay Company.

He said that the kind of lifethat they had was hard. They in a sense, provided theHudson's Bay Company with what they have today. ComeSeptember, everybody goes out in the bush hunting.Wherever there is fish, everyone would put in nets andcatch all the fish. Some of the people may have shotone moose, some, two, three, four. They cache them.They build a small hut and put them all in there.

When the first snow comes, theycame into town and the Hudson's Bay has at least 12 menworking for him. No, 15. Each man had a team of sixdogs. These people went and got the moose. This wasprovided to the Hudson Bay for his food. In thewintertime they provided him with rabbits and all that.This was how they helped the Hudson's Bay. That's how hegrew rich on the misery of the people. I guess. That'show come he's got a beautiful store today.

There's a couple of peoplethat he mentioned was Camsell and another man, McLeod.


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These were the Hudson's Bay managers or traders that heremembered. He said that the last three members thatthey provided the Hudson's Bay. He doesn't know,doesn't remember for how long this went on because hewent in this area with his father then. But he doesremember that back then they had sort of a rationsystem for the Indian people. All the food that theygot moose and fish and everything the Hudson's Baykept -- everything went to the Hudson's Bay.

In the summertime once a weekthey get the ration. Everybody gets flour and sugarand some meat. There was no lard or anything. Theyhad to use fat that was made from moose fat that thepeople had made. They were given chunks of that. Forone week of flour, they used to get a can of fine cuttobacco, one of those empty cans. It's not the sizethat you see today but it's smaller. They used to getone scoop of that for flour. This was supposed to lastthem for a week and for sugar.

This was given to people whohad a lot of children. They'd get one scoop of flourfor the week. Also they got a small container, a smalllittle cup of sugar for the week. Every Friday, Iguess they had a tower. There was a hell in there.Every Friday night about six o'clock or something, theyused to ring it. So everybody used to bring theirpacksacks over there just to get it.

These were the people whowere on the employment of the Hudson's Bay. This wasnot the native people but this was actually the


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Hudson's Bay workers. All the moose and fish andeverything that was supplied to the Bay was for the --to maintain and feed the Hudson's Bay crowd. This waswhat was given to them.

There was some old ladiesthere too, old widows and that. They got part of someof that too. He says he talks about it because he hasseen it and because he was there to help some of theold ladies, some of the old widows to get their scoopof flour and scoop of sugar.

He said that a long time agoguns that we know of today was no use to the peopleback then. They used bow and arrow. They had, whenthe guns were introduced here, it was those old typesof guns that had sort of a hammer on it I guess, youknow, that they filled to put the powder in the back.You know. It was pretty dangerous I guess but if themen had it long enough, they, you know, they could loadit up in a hurry if they had to. But it took a long,long time to get used to it.

But then his father receiveda gun one time. This was one of the newer guns whichhad pellets I guess. You load it up with pellets andit had the cap on it. The people seen it and theyliked it so they went to see the Hudson's Bay managerand the guy who was in charge of the post. The guypromised them that they would, you know, order for all.So it come springtime the freight came and all theseguns were unloaded. Now, to buy a gun, they didn'thave cash. You bought them with skins. You pile your


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skins to the height of the gun, even before youreceived it. There was all kinds of pelts: beaver,fox, marten; everything, all piled up. He says he hasseen this happen. He's seen two people buy guns likethat, trapping all winter long. They lust piled their,all their cache for the whole winter and got the gun.

This is how they lived. Thisis how the gun was introduced among the people here.He said this is the kind of life that we live and ithas been a hard life. The way we lived a long time agothere was nobody around to dictate to us how we shouldlive and what we should do. Among us, we had a leader.The leader was usually the man who knew mosteverything, hunting and all that.

Aside from him, there was themedicine man. He was usually the one who knew how longhe was going to be among the people. Then somebodyelse, after he was gone, someone else took his place.These were the only two people who were sort of leaderswithin the Indian group of people who lived. Thenlittle by little, the white man came without tellingthe people why they were here and why they came.

Slowly the change came and thenall of a sudden there was an entirely new different,everything was different. Not knowing about and notbeing prepared for it, you know, everybody was sort of inthe air like, you know. This is the way that it still ishe says, not understanding what happened. This is sortof a culture of shock I guess you might say.

He said at the time nobody


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was in a set place. There was a set place I guess forthe trading post. Everybody wandered around after thegame. Whenever somebody shot a moose or anything, theyall would go over there and live there. They had,for the shelter, they had -- they made a shelter outof spruce and whatever was handy then. Then theyhad a fire in the middle and they made dried meat andthat.

When it was gone and somebodyelse shot another moose someplace then they moved overthere again. At the time he said nobody was worriedabout a house. Nobody complained about the cold.Nobody said that it was cold or anything. This, isthe way that the people are. He says, "I was one ofthem". I lived that kind of life. Even today, I stillwonder about that. I still marvel at the kind of livesthat we had. There was no complaints. Nobody gotcold.

He says, but today, I live ina house like this and I get cold when I never used tobefore. I wonder about that. He said back then we hadno clothing that we have now. Everybody dressed inrabbitskin. A good hunter usually dressed in beaver.Usually about four big beaver pelts would make a goodcoat for any man. They had everything was -- even theblankets and that was made out of fur, either beaver orrabbit skin. No one did complain about the cold oranything.

He said that he lived among alot of people and he travelled with all of them. He's


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telling you this story because he's seen it with hiseyes and he's been through it. He said if he hadfriends today who is still alive with him, they willtell you the same thing, the same story.

There was one or two fluepidemics and a lot of his relatives and friends passedaway. But he's telling you this story and he is at themoment kind of leary on saying any more or carrying onbecause he thinks that maybe some of you think that heis not -- he's just telling you a story because he isall alone now and no old person here to say that he istelling you the truth.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much sir.

(WITNESS ASIDE)

HENRY SIMBA resumed:THE INTERPRETER: Every year

it was about the same thing. You go trapping and toget whatever was necessary. You got the pellets foryour gun, powder for your gun and maybe if there was,you know, you got used to chewing tobacco or you gotused to some tobacco, you had some and there was sometea.

If this was gone, you know,you had no more of that, then you went to the tradingpost to get some. You hunt and you trap all winterlong. All your furs was bought in the springtime.There you lived at a fishing camp in the summer. Atthe end of August, you start again looking for furs:


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beaver and bear or lynx or whatever that the Bay wantedto buy. This is what they did all year around, justtrapping.

He said at the time that theonly way you could get anything was to go trapping foryour livelihood because at the time nobody -- there wasno work and nobody knew about anything about the wageearning or anything like that.

Sometimes at the insistenceof the Bay manager or at his urging the people went andgot more furs so that they can get some, you know, whatlittle they can with their furs. This what they did.He's been through it he says. He's been through itall.

He has lived a hard life withdepending on our own ability, I guess, to hunt and trapand that. He says I remember a time when we ever firstheard about the government was when Mr. Carr somegovernment agent came to Fort Simpson. There hebrought in a whole bunch of supplies including cows.He says then they gave the Indians blankets, flour andH bacon and everything else. From that day, ourdependency grew. We forgot about what we used to do,our old ways of life. Seeing that they had sort ofdeleted. or depleted the game in the bush, everybodystarted making their way to where the government waspassing out all these stuff. That's how they starteddependency on government grew.

More and more this happeneduntil today. The way you see Indian people are today.


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He said sometimes when he was young and nobody knewanything about a dollar and sometimes someone wouldfind a dollar or someone from the Bay and not knowingthat, you know, what, you know, how much it was or whatit was worth, they used to give it to the local priestwho told them that one dollar was worth four skins.They used that to buy, you know, because the priest hada whole bunch of supplies and that, you know, theybought a little stuff with that.

Four skins were worth maybefour quarters or whatever. But he said that it may havebeen funny for us young guys sitting here and laughing atthat but for them at the time not knowing what it was,you know, used to go the priest because he used to givethem four skins. It was lots I guess you know, for onething you can get four. It's was lots to them.

THE WITNESS: You give thepriest a dollar and then he give you four skins worth.So, when you find a dollar, you get a dollar from theHudson's Bay, well you give it to the priest. So hegive you four skins. He doesn't know what's four skinsmeans. But everybody even if they find a dollar, wellthey go to the priest. This is four skins and you getback -- I don't know. Maybe four quarters, maybe, Idon't know -- maybe four dollars.

THE INTERPRETER:He remembers the time that it

must have been a little over forty years ago that whenthey used to live at Tathlina that they first seen themoney or the cash that like we know of today. They


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heard that there was three traders that did come in fromdown south into Providence. These people were buyingbeaver. So they made their way to Providence and whenthey got there, these people approached them and saidthat we'll buy your furs. So instead of going to theBay as usual, they went to these traders; three of them.The traders offered them 30 or 40 or $45 each pelt.That's the only time that they found, you know, theyknew the dollar. You know, not actually knowing thevalue of it but you know, they had it. That's when wefirst seen money like that.

This land is big and that.We are all friends, white, Indians. We passed throughthis land. We are part of it. I guess at one time oranother that we did fight among each other and that.You had to learn down there, which is down south and wehad our land here. All of a sudden, there was a lot ofwhite people around. You know, what they were doing wedidn't know. But we are all friends and brothers.You're like us. You eat till you're full. Youdrink till you quench your thirst. We do the samething.

We live off the land and wewill continue doing that until the day we die. Here heis referring to himself. He says and there is talkabout having the pipeline and that. The people thatshould be more concerned should be the people from downthe river where the pipeline will go through. Maybe itwill pass us by here but we will continue living theway we always been whether there is a pipeline or


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whether there is no pipeline. We'll keep on living theway we were.

The people down the river,the delta area, they are the ones who are moreconcerned because their area where they live and huntand that is much smaller than our area here. That'swhere the pipeline is to start from so they are theones who are more concerned about it. But we will keepon living the way we are doing here as long as there isno interference from anybody anywhere either by thepipeline, government or anybody else.

He said that what his fathersaid about the pipeline, you know, is true and that inthat area where the people from Trout Lake probablytrap this way too. And the area where the pipeline issupposed to travel across was a good hunting area.Sometimes they do go down there but they don't go toofar nowadays because one person cannot travel alone aways than he used to.

The people who are making themost of this pipeline issue are and must he the peoplethat are more affected and that's the people down thedelta area. He say and where they go he can show youon a map the Tathline area.

He said that whatever thathis father said, he has heard this story a lot of timesfrom a lot of old people. Apart from his father he haslistened to a lot of stories like this. He said thateverything his father said about clothing andeverything is true. That he's heard it from a lot of


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people. The white man that is here, is he is doing hisown business and he is not bothering them at all. Ifwe are to gain any sort of benefit from them beinghere, then let them be here.

He said that we had learnedfrom the white men, educated like them. Some of us hadgone to grade 12 and that. He himself, he's gone toonly six only because he was sick at the time. Part ofour education was French because of the nuns who werehere and prayed all the time.

He said all these people thatyou see sitting here had attended a year or two at theconvent at the boarding school in Providence and thatonly when they got of age and were in their 2('s andthat, that school actually did start. Family allowanceand all that, they never had.

Q What?A Family allowance.Q Oh yes.A Never had it you know.

Because of that, you know, there actually is not muchfor them to do except to rely on the way they used tolive before. He said that they didn't learn too muchwhere they stayed in the boarding school. You spenthalf your time praying and that the nuns insisted thatwe speak French. If we didn't then they put us in thecorner for a hour. If you were chewing gum anywhere,they used to put it on -- you know, make you put it onthe top of your nose and then put you in the corner andyou stayed there for an hour.


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This was not education. We didnot learn anything from that. how are we supposed tolearn when we are in a situation like that. That's howwe are here and you know, for us there's nothing --there's actually nothing. We didn't learn anything fromthat.

And that you people who aresitting here are the same us. You got ten fingers,your legs and that. The only difference between youand I is your language and the color of your skin.That's it. Some of you are good people. Some of youare friends. But the only thing is that when we meetyou is that we want to talk to you. We can't unlessthere is somebody close by who speaks your language andcan interpret for us.

Our trapping area is in thevicinity of where the proposed route of the pipelineis. We have been that way before but in this pastwinter, we didn't go that far because some of the olderpeople here -- some of them have been sick and theyneed the young guys around to look after them so theydidn't go too far away from here last winter.

He said that where thepipeline is to go, maybe we would not be affected byit. But we are in an age now where there is change andthere is to be many white men here. We can't gainanything or earn anything by doing no work at all. Wehave to earn a living like them. They came herewithout invitation or without any consultation with thenative people. They have been doing whatever they were


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since then.The people more affected is

the people who are in the delta region. The white mancan do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't botherthis community. But the only thing is that this thingshould take place and the white man can do whatever hewants after the land claims thing is settled. Thenthey can go ahead and do whatever they want.

But they can do that withoutdisrupting anybody or bothering anybody then let themgo ahead and do it. These people here, living here anda good example about interference in this community isthat at one time there was four geologists here wholived in this building here. They paddled around andall that. They put some nets out in the water there.It must have been an inch --one inch mesh.

THE WITNESS: Inch and a half.Or two inch.

THE INTERPRETER: So they tookthe fish and they gut them and then took some samplesfrom there and then threw the fish away. They lefttheir nets there for three or four days, you know. Thefish were dead in there and getting rotten. Thesepeople were probably getting paid for living here.Here they could have hired one or two of these guyshere to bring the nets for them and visit the nets andthat.

Q These were fishbiologists are they?

A I think so.


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Q Yes.A But they took samples

from, you know, along the shore but everything.Q Yes.A Finally it got to a

point where the fish were all in the nets and that,rotten and all that. So they came over here and had atalk with them and told them to leave. They left.

They told them to take theirnets out and that and so they did and then they left.

Another example of this wasthat a few years ago they had all these guys here weredoing some commercial fishing down at the end of thelake for pickerel and that. When they came back oneday they came back to bring their catch back in here.When they came in there was a whole bunch of peoplehere young people and that. So he was over at thishouse and he saw them so he came over here to ask themwhat they were doing. He found out that these peoplewere from the correctional institute in Hay River.

These people said that theywere going to build some cabins down along the lakethere some place. So, he told them that they shouldn'tjust come in here, barge into here without talking tothe people and telling them what they want and thatthis area is none of their business and they shouldn'tbother it. It's for the people here. So these guysleft and they took all their supplies and canoes andeverything and went back and left. Since that time,there is nobody that has been bothering them at all.


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There is a lot of peoplecoming in like this and not bothering consulting thepeople here in town. This thing has to stop becausethey are the ones who, you know, benefit from whateveris in the water and whatever is on the land. They puttheir nets up there for their own use. And thatanybody who comes in here and starts fishing and doingthat and they are sitting there and watching them whilethey could be doing that and getting paid for it. Allthe survey posts put in here, these people in thiscommunity planted them and that anybody that comes hereshould just go to the end of the highway there.Whatever they want to do is to get approval andpermission from these people here before they do anysort of fishing or whatever.

And that they do some fishingon this, you know, on this lake here. There was onetime last spring -- this spring. The fisheries hadgiven them a quota, a limit of 21,000 pounds of fish.They were about to start fishing, commercial fishingand they had made plans. Everybody -- all the youngguys here were ready to fish. Then all of a suddenthese three men from Hay River came and they were goingto do their fishing here to.

So he phone Casey Jones in HayRiver, telling him not to send these guys down becausethey were the ones who were going to their fishing here.

Q Who is Casey Jones?A He is the --Q Fisheries officer?


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A -- the government --Territorial Government employment. He's an economicdevelopment officer?

Q Yes.A He approached Fisheries

but Fisheries couldn't do anything because there's nolaw or any set rules or regulations that prohibitsanybody from, you know, fishing.

So these guys came in withtheir nets and they used three inch mesh while theacceptable measurement for any mesh here in this lakeis four and a half. So these guys brought in about 30nets and these guys just started. In no time at all,their limit was -- they caught their limit.

Then these guys came and leftand they left all their nets down there at the end ofroad there down by the bank. The fishing inspectorcame and, you know, confiscated about 16 nets all threeinch mesh. Part of the blame went on them and leftthem a bad name with the fisheries people. So herethey are with, you know, they could have done all theirfishing throughout the summer but their limit was gonein no time at all. So they're just sitting here andwonder at so much an hour they're sitting here for.

There's no work at all hereand they learned to pray when they were in school.That's all they do there and I get paid for it all.

Q Praying comes in handy.THE WITNESS: We expect the

pipeline any time. We get a free gas for it.


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THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, pleasedo.

(WITNESS ASIDE)JIM THOM, resumed:THE WITNESS: What I was just

saying here was that there was two person that was onthat land use research in Kakisa here, One of them wasBetty Menicoche and Rufus Moses who did the interviewwith the people here. There was twelve of them, twelveable men that did all their trapping during the -- thatwere between the ages of 30 to about 40 I guess, 45.There are just only about ten of them now -- ten ableperson that are doing all their trapping year round.

I was just explaining tothem that what you see on this map is just where theydid all their trapping during the winter and thespring.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.A Trapping seasons. I

said like most of them did all their trapping way uptowards Trout Lake but later years, I guess they'vejust been up to this area. There main concern was justright up to where the Kakisa River flows. They've beengoing through all this. This area here is a real goodbeaver country and that where they're, -- you noticethat they're --

Q To the west of TathlinaLake.

A Yes. That's wherethey're doing all their -- that's where they do all


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their spring hunting and that. Some of them have beento do the west end of the lake where they have alltheir old camps situated right over here I wasexplaining to them that whatever they trap along theirtraplines were all marked on the map. There is lynx,marten. There is wolverine, weasel, squirrel, beaverand whatever sometimes we call "chicken on the way" ortraffic. Just whatever they get along their traplines.

Some of them look -- it's agood place also for moose and that's where you havequite a bit of marks where there have been getting alltheir luck with their hunting and killing moose.

(WITNESS ASIDE)HENRY SIMBA, resumed:THE INTERPRETER: He said that

he's been up to here, up to this lake here with thatgeologist. He said that they came out here with thegeologist and that's where their canoe tipped over. Soalong this route a helicopter picked them up. Butwhile they were along this route he said they werecounting all the beaver dams. He mentioned to theperson that he was with while they were doing all this.He mentioned that there was supposed to be a pipelinecoming along through here.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr.Ellwood, do you just want to point out the route of thepipeline on that map? Mr. Ellwood is with Foothills,one of the pipelines and he's just here to listen towhat you have to say. But if you can just draw it withyour finger along it.


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MR. ELLWOOD: The route comesjust past Fort Simpson here, running down through hereand out like that.

A But also Henry said allalong these two lakes this a real good beaver countrythere.

MR. ELLWOOD: There is anotherpipeline, the lateral pipeline to serve the communitieshere, from about here the pipeline goes across to FortProvidence and then along the lake and along thehighway.

THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe Ishould explain that Mr. Ellwood's company wants tobuild a pipeline that will go over to Providence, PinePoint, Hay River, Yellowknife and Rae so they have totake a pipeline from the main line across to Providenceand then along the river. That's one of the reasonswhy we are here because that pipeline they want tobuild according to the way Mr. Ellwood just described,it seems to go through an area that you are concernedabout.

Excuse me, do you want totrace the course of that lateral again just as best youcan.

MR. ELLWOOD: It would runfrom a point about in here towards Providence andthen goes along highway there and goes here acrossthe highway but still on this side of Birch Lake soit goes up here and about somewheres just to thenorth of the west end of the lake here to up to


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about Trainor Lake.THE COMMISSIONER: You'd

better tell me if a consensus has been reached here.(WITNESS ASIDE)I. THOM sworn;THE WITNESS: No I am saying

what Foothills saying that it was just a proposed routethat they were having and then showing them the map.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.A Showing on the map where

they are proposing to have the pipeline. They are saidwhat they "concerned with is that if they were in thearea surrounded by the pipeline then they would beconcerned. But they said that's only just they don'twant no pipeline till there's a land claims settlement.until it's finished after a settlement is settled.

Like it seems just to show wherethe pipeline is it looks easy but he said -- what theyare really want to say is that they don't want to, youknow,no pipeline until this land settlement is settled.

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorryChief, I missed that.

CHIEF CANADIEN: I said theyre not talking about it until they've settled theirland claim then they can do what they want.

THE COMMISSIONER: O.K., Imean O.K., I understand.

WITNESS SIMBA: You shouldtalk Slavey to us.


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WITNESS THOM: Yesterdaywhen I did that land -- explained it to you aboutthat land use research map, one thing I forgot tomention was that the people that were around theProvidence area were all in family groups like alongin the farthest corner there were all the Gargansand then coming into Big Point like I mentioned likethe Landrys and further up the Horn River theMinozas and the Landrys about 5 miles.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Landrywas the old man that spoke last night?

A Yes. This area rightover here, that's where we were all living in families.I sort of forgot to mention that.

Q Yes.THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we

would all like to thank you for coming here andlistening to them. Maybe at the same time, in thefuture that they would like to -- if something elsecomes up and they would like to talk about it then we'dcertainly like to add on to what they have said here.You know, get in touch with you or whatever.

Q O.K.A There is not too many of

them that live here and that but all that we talk aboutcan happen only after the land claims is settled. Wedon't know the course of action that is to he taken bythe Brotherhood because we've just had a new leadernow. But we live ourselves here with nobody telling us


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what to do with that place. If we had lived in anotherplace and had all the conveniences of anybody else oranywhere else, possibly we won't have our meeting in alittle garage like this but we thank you for coming,everybody.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, thankyou. This is a nice place to have a meeting. Youshouldn't apologize for it and I am sure that everyonethat came with me is very comfortable to be here andhas appreciated the chance to see Kakisa Lake.

You know, my job is to findout what would happen if we built a gas pipeline andestablished an energy corridor in the Mackenzie Valley.That means I have to try to figure out the impact thatone people have upon another. I know a lot about whitepeople and white society because that's where I comefrom. That's where my roots are but I want tounderstand the native people and their roots. In thatway we can judge what the best thing is to do today.

I have listened closely toyou and I think I understand how you feel about things.Let me just say that for me it's a great advantage tocome to these places and here what the people who livehere want to tell me. That way I don't have to readabout it in books or just listen to the people who cometo Yellowknife to tell me what they think about it all.It means that I get the chance to hear from you peoplewho live throughout this country and whose future willbe most affected.

So thank you again and if you


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have anything to add, you can get in touch with methrough Chief Canadien or through Mr. Jackson whom youknow. You should feel that you have every right to letme know if there is anything you wish to say that youforgot to say today. So thank you again, maybe youcould translate that.(INTERPRETER INTERPRETS ABOVE)(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO AUGUST 9TH, 1976)


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kakisa lake, n.w.t. july 17, 1976 volume 69 - pwnhc kakisa l... · 2015. 1. 29. · mr. john w....

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