kachkar-policeinterview

ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RICHARD KACHKAR BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT DANIEL NIELSEN (5809) AND

DETECTIVE MARY VRUNA (7164) ON 25TH, JANUARY, 2011, AT 10:01 HOURS

1 of 259 Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN: Alright? Okay?

Detective Mary VRUNA: Ya (UI)

NIELSEN: It’s Tuesday, January 25th of 2011. The time right now is 10:01

a.m.; I'm Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5-8-0-9 of the

Toronto Police Service Homicide Squad. I’m in room B029 of

Maplehurst Correctional Institute with my partner, Detective

Mary VRUNA , spelled V-R-U-N-A, badge 7-1-6-4. Ah, we

have asked to see inmate Richard Esbar KACHKAR, spelled K-

A-C-H-K-A-R. Ah, security officers Zolten RONKAI and

Darren JONES have gone to get him from the medical wing of

the Institute.

MALE: Well, there's a cell unit I would have taken normally but ah they

got him in the shower.

NIELSEN: He’s in the shower?

MALE: He’s in the shower and so.

NIELSEN: Okay.




MALE: We’re gonna (sic) be delayed by a few minutes.

NIELSEN: A few minutes?

MALE: Yeah. 5 or 10 minutes or however long it takes him to have a

shower and get dried off and get clothed and so.

NIELSEN: So okay. Well, we’ll wait.

VRUNA: M-hm.

MALE: Was in the shower - -

NIELSEN: Sure.

MALE: - - as we speak and when we walked in.

VRUNA: Okay, do you want to re-start?

MALE: Yeah.

VRUNA: Okay and just maybe the time again?




NIELSEN: Yeah and we've been told the inmate ah Mr. KACHKAR is in

the shower and we’re gonna (sic) be delayed.. So we're gonna

(sic) off the recording at ah 10:03 a.m.

MALE: I wasn’t expecting that (UI)

NIELSEN: Ya we (UI) that that has to be turned off.

VRUNA: Oh, sorry.

(Tape stopped) (01:48mins)

VRUNA: Okay, we’re going.

NIELSEN: Okay. We’re on video and um and we’re being recorded again

and ah it's Tuesday, January 25th 2011 and the time right now is

10 - 10 a.m. and we're at the Maplehurst Correctional Institute;

room B029 which is the Halton Police Liaison Team Office.

We're in the main office. I'm Detective Sergeant Daniel

NIELSEN, badge 5-8-0-9. My surname is spelled N-I-E-L-S-E-

N. Present with me here is my partner, Detective Mary

VRUNA, badge 7-1-6-4 and the spelling is V-R-U-N-A and

we’re with the Homicide Squad. We have asked to see inmate

Richard Esbar KACHKAR , spelled K-A-C-H-K-A-R.




(Background noise.)

NIELSEN: And we’re waiting for security officers; Zolten RONKAI, and

the surname is spelled R-O-N-K-A-I and Darren JONES to bring

him from the medical infirmary wing of the Institute.

VRUNA: We need to know the time when he's in the room.

(Speaking in the background – inaudible.)

NIELSEN: Hi Richard.

Richard KACHKAR: Hi.

NIELSEN: How are you? Come on in here. I'm Detective Sergeant ah

NIELSEN and this is my partner De’- Detective VRUNA.

VRUNA: Hi.

KACHKAR: Nice to meet you.

NIELSEN: We’re with the Toronto Police Homicide Squad and uh I'm just

gonna (sic) ask you to sit over there okay and the time right now

is 10:13 a.m.




KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: Richard and we've never met---

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: ---and um just so you know we’re being - we are on video

camera and we’re being recorded okay? Um, I'm just gonna (sic)

introduce more formally who we are. Ah, Detective VRUNA

and I are the lead Homicide Investigators into the death of Ryan

RUSSELL okay. We didn't see you at the hospital. Ah, some

other officers met went and they (UI) arrested you and charged

you. Okay? But we’re gonna (sic) ask you some questions; but

before I get into that, I'm just gonna (sic) go through a few

things. Um, we’re in a – an office right now um it's room B029

of the Halton Police Liaison Team Office. Ah it's normally

occupied and it's not occupied ah and so we can sit here and talk

to you today okay? Um the door is shut behind me, there's a

window and it's clear ah it's not blocked. Ah security officer

Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES are just in that room, it’s

called a DNA testing room. Um, they have a clear view in here

but they can't hear what's being said okay? Um, for the record




um do you see anybody else in this room other than ah Detective

VRUNA and myself?

KACHKAR: No sir.

NIELSEN: Okay and yourself -- there's nobody else in this room?

KACHKAR: No sir.

NIELSEN: Okay. So what I'm gonna (sic) start ah Richard um I know you

were arrested -- I'm just gonna (sic) run through what you were

arrested for okay; and you - and you have been charged and I

know you've been to court. The First Degree Murder is in

relation to a police officer by the name of Ryan RUSSELL and

that occurred in the early morning hours of January 12th of this

year just a little over a couple weeks ago, alright; So those are

the charges that you're facing and you’ve been formally charged.

You’ve been to court now I think twice is that correct? Okay.

Now I just wanna (sic) make sure that you understand your

rights before we talk any further. Do you understand what you've

been charged with?

KACHKAR: I mean what you've told me. I mean.




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: You understand? Ah, it's my duty to inform you ah that you

have the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay. You

have the right to telephone any lawyer you wish and you also

have the right to free legal advice from a Legal Aid Lawyer. If

you are charged with an offense and you've been ah charged -

Um, you may apply to the Ontario Legal Aid Plan for assistance,

1- 800- 265- 0451 is a toll-free telephone number that will put

you in contact with a Legal Aid Duty Counsel Lawyer for free

legal advice right now. Do you understand that?

KACHKAR: I did that already.

NIELSEN: Okay so do you understand that?

KACHKAR: Yes.

NIELSEN: Okay. Um, do you wish to call a lawyer right now?

KACHKAR: I need a lawyer to help me, I don't know what happened. I don't

know what's going on here.




NIELSEN: Okay. I'm just -- do you want to speak to a lawyer before you

speak to us or are you okay to speak to us?

KACHKAR: No, I should speak to a lawyer; I should have my lawyer please.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Because I'm ah---

NIELSEN: Have you retained a lawyer by the way?

KACHKAR: I'm in the process now of calling some people and---

NIELSEN: Do you have a lawyer?

KACHKAR: Not yet.

NIELSEN: Okay. So you’ve ah - you've not retained any lawyer?

KACHKAR: No, because I just got applied for Legal Aid and - and then just

applied for Legal Aid so now I'm looking for a lawyer.

NIELSEN: Okay. So what I’m going to do is there's a telephone here---




KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: ---um before we go any further so what I'll do is - and we'll ah

bring you into the next room and I'll put the telephone there and

we’ll give you privacy okay. Now I – I should tell you that we

can’t hear what you say because of the circumstances you will be

under observation. Do you understand that?

NIELSEN: Okay, I will call duty counsel and um actually we have to call

them first is how it's gonna (sic) work and we’ll call duty---

KACHKAR: I called one this morning.

NIELSEN: Did you?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I called a lawyer cuz (sic) I have a list. So, I called a

lawyer, said she’s gonna (sic) get back to me or I should call

back at 2 or something after lunch to see if - if she's gonna (sic)

be ah available so I have a few that I want to call.




NIELSEN: Okay. Um we were provided the name of a la’- of a lawyer – of

a - a lawyer by the name of ah Magdalena WISOMUSKA. Have

you spoken to her? (KACHKAR shaking head) So what's your

preference, would you like us to call a – a certain lawyer or

would you like us to call Duty Counsel to see if you can get

some legal advice?

KACHKAR: Well, in court already they said that um I should call the - I

should have some lawyers that I should call.

NIELSEN: Okay. But I'm asking you what - what – what do you wanna

(sic) do right now?

KACHKAR: Right now probably just call those – ah call them and then - and

then listen to what they have to say. Cuz (sic) I don't kn’- I don't

know what happened officer; I really don't. I'm running very

scared. It never happened to me in my life. I don't know why I

did it or what happened? I don’t have a – and---

NIELSEN: Okay. But – but you know listen, before you go any further we'll

ah - what we'll do is - so you don't have - I just want to make

sure I'm - I understand that you have not spoken to a lawyer,

you’ve not retained a lawyer?




KACHKAR: Yeah. No.

NIELSEN: You understand what's involved in that?

KACHKAR: Legal Aid, like a Legal Aid they proved that and then find a

lawyer who wants to---

NIELSEN: So you’ve not actually been interviewed by a lawyer?

(KACHKAR shakes head) Okay what I'm gonna (sic) do then

based on what you're telling me is um we will call um Legal Aid,

the number, and put them in - put you in touch with a lawyer so

you can speak to a lawyer and get some legal advice okay?

We'll do that. So we’re gonna (sic) have to make a phone call

and what I will do is I’ll have the officers um - actually, I'm just

gonna (sic) speak to them and see what the best way of

coordinating that is okay. Let me just ask them. (NIELSEN off

camera) What he wants is - we're gonna (sic) call a – ah Duty

Counsel so I think probably the best thing for us to do is to make

the call, we’ll let you take him back to his room.

MALE: Okay.

NIELSEN: Ah, subject to what you think I’ll call Duty Counsel and Legal

Aid and wait for them to call me back.




MALE: Alright.

NIELSEN: When they call me back---

MALE: M-hm.

NIELSEN: ---um maybe we can bring him back and he can speak to

counsel---

KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: ---ah here or is there some other area where he can speak to

Legal Aid?

MALE: Um---

NIELSEN: And if they call here can we ---

MALE: Well, why don't – why don’t we try calling them while we have

him here?

NIELSEN: Yeah. They won't - they won't answer ah it's the 1- 800-number

and we have to give them information to call back.




MALE: Oh, okay. Okay.

NIELSEN: That’s how it works.

MALE: So um, I think here is as good as any.

NIELSEN: Okay. So in the meantime while we’re waiting and we’ll – and

we’ll – can we take him back to his room?

MALE: Now the only other thing that we can do is he's entitled to a - he's

able to make a collect call from his cell. We have one of these

(inaudible) telephones.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

MALE: Um, that ah - if the duty counsel calls - calls back and like if he

gives you a phone number---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

MALE: ---that he can call collect.

NIELSEN: M-hm.




MALE: Then he can call the Duty Counsel from his cell.

NIELSEN: Why don't I try that. So what we’ll do is ah - we’re gonna (sic)

do that okay Richard? I’m gonna (sic) call Duty Counsel and the

officer is gonna (sic) take you back to the secure area---

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: ---and we’ll call duty counsel and when they call me; I'm gonna

(sic) get a number that you can speak to somebody okay?

KACHKAR: Thank you.

NIELSEN: Okay. So it's ah 10:21 a.m. and these officers are gonna (sic)

take you back to your area okay?

KACHKAR: Okay.

(Tape stopped)

NIELSEN: Okay. It’s Tuesday, January 25th, 2011, and the time now is

11:34. I’m Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5 8 0 9 of the

Toronto Police Homicide Squad. Maplehurst Correctional

Institute in room B029; I’m with my partner Detective Mary




VRUNA and Richard KACHKAR and we’re in the DNA room

with security officer Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES. And

Richard, we are being recorded again and we have a Duty

Counsel Lawyer by the name of Susan PORTEUS on hold.

Okay Richard, you have asked us to speak to a – a lawyer and so

we have a duty counsel lawyer ah we’re gonna (sic) forward you

some privacy and for the record the officers will be just outside

this door.

KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: We’ll be just inside this door. Ah, because of the security

measures we’ll be able to see ah and we ask that you remain

seated where you are and you have privacy. We can’t hear

what’s being said okay? So when you’re finished the phone and

I’ll just ask you to hang it up and then ah we’ll speak to you

okay? So we’re gonna (sic) shut the doors right now and the

time right now is ---

VRUNA: Hi, Ms. PORTEUS? Hi, I’ve got Richard KACHKAR here um

and I’m gonna (sic) give him the phone and then we’ll be leaving

the interview room okay? Yes, he does. Okay and there – there

you go.




NIELSEN: Okay it’s ah 11---

KACHKAR: And what were we talking about?

NIELSEN: 2011 and the time by my watch right now is 11:34 a.m. I'm

Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5-8-0-9 of the Toronto

Police Homicide Squad, Maplehurst Correctional Institute in

room B029 and this is my partner Detective Mary VRUNA and

ah Richard KACHKAR and in the DNA room um with security

officers; Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES and ah Richard

we're now being recorded again. Um you just got off the phone

with a lawyer, Susan PORTEUS is that correct?

KACHKAR: Yes.

NIELSEN: Okay. I'm just gonna (sic) accompany us back in the interview

room. Just have a seat over there okay? Thank you. You

understand we’re still being recorded right Richard?

KACHKAR: Yes sir.

NIELSEN: Okay. Have you spoken to a - a lawyer?

KACHKAR: On the phone.




NIELSEN: Susan PORTEUS on the phone?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Alright. I'm just gonna (sic) go over a – a couple of things. Um,

I told you what the charges you're facing are. I’m just gonna (sic)

recite them again just so you’re clear. It’s First Degree Murder

and it's in relation to events that took place on January 12th a

little - almost 2 weeks ago ah in the morning of January 12th

2011 okay? Um, in relation to one witness - or one victim is a -

a police officer by the name of Ryan RUSSELL and ah he died.

Those are the charges that you're facing alright. I explained them

earlier. Um and do you wish to say anything in answer to the

charges? You're not obliged to say anything unless you wish to

do so, but whatever you say in relation to the charges may be

given as evidence. Do you understand that?

KACHKAR: Yes sir.

NIELSEN: Okay. In your words, what does that mean to you?

KACHKAR: It means that I whatever I say could be used as evidence.




NIELSEN: Okay. Alright and we’re being recorded ah and we’re taking

some written notes as well okay; and ah the other thing I wanna

(sic) ask you is if you have spoken to any police officer before

you met us or to anyone with authority and that includes the

Security Correctional Service people. Um or if any such people

have spoken to you in connection with this case, I want it clearly

understood, I don't want it to influence you in making any

statement. Do you understand what that means?

KACHKAR: Yeah. People talking and since everybody knows something

anyways but I don’t know.

NIELSEN: Yeah. But did you under’- what - in your words what does that

mean to you?

KACHKAR: That they’ll say a lot of things but it hasn’t - it’s not what you're

talking about. You’re saying you’re…




NIELSEN: What ah - and what that means is has anybody made any

promises to you to say something to us? Ah, anybody made any

threats to you to say anything to us or not say anything to us?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: How have you been treated in the facility here?

KACHKAR: Very nice. They treat me nice here.

NIELSEN: They treat you well? Okay and since your arrest, how have you

been treated?

KACHKAR: Well, I don’t know because I’ve never been arrested before so

just standard I guess, I’m just being put in my room and wait

there and they have somebody watch me and I’d be eating my

food and have my bandages checked and that’s it. I haven't had

any communication.

NIELSEN: So when you went to the hospital, how did you get treated there,

how were you - how did you feel you were treated there?

KACHKAR: I don't recall. I don't recall the hospital incident and everything.

I don't recall that.




NIELSEN: Okay. Alright. Ah, I'm just gonna (sic) ask you a couple things

and um maybe a little bit about yourself and ah and it's up to you

whether you want to answer it or not? I mean it's um - I have

spoken to your wife, Maro. I understand um that you've been

married for quite some time is that right? Ah, how – how long

have you been married for?

KACHKAR: 20 years or 22 years.

NIELSEN: 20 years?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: You’re very soft-spoken Richard and I'm just gonna (sic) ask you

to try to ah---

KACHKAR: 22 years sir.

NIELSEN: 22 years? Okay.

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: And um and you have a couple of kids?




KACHKAR: Yes.

NIELSEN: And that's ah as’- Ashley and Berj is that right?

KACHKAR: Yes sir.

NIELSEN: Okay and um we’re gonna (sic) speak to that and just to - I have

spoken to Ashley by the way. She asked me to pass the message

on to you, I promised that I would. I'm gonna (sic) do that now.

She asked me to tell you that she loves you.

KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: Alright? So, I did tell her that I would say that.

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: Um, have you seen them? When’s the last time you seen them?

KACHKAR: I don’t know, I think after New Year's or New Year’s.

NIELSEN: After New Year’s?




KACHKAR: Before New Year’s.

NIELSEN: Yeah?

KACHKAR: Yeah, because um I'm not working and things like that and at

home you know I'm kind of just - because it's not my house so I

just stay there sometimes when I don't I stay at my place. I have

a little building that I stay at and---

NIELSEN: Okay. Which now - which - and when you say it's not your

house, which house are you talking about?

KACHKAR: My wife’s place because it’s like a kind um – um a co-op

housing.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: She’s there because she has like a medical condition.

NIELSEN: Alright.

KACHKAR: And it when our and – and she needed to get her time together so

she was – she’s with the kids there and so me going there

sometimes puts stress on her and you know she doesn't have time




for me she doesn’t have you know she wants to water her plants

or something you know she's not - I have to call her.

NIELSEN: Okay so were you - were you staying there?

KACHKAR: No. No.

NIELSEN: No and then ah - I’m just wondering; is that the – the co-op

KACHKAR: I'm not supposed to be there it’s just I go see my dogs there. I

have some dogs there.

NIELSEN: How many dogs do you have there?

KACHKAR: I have three.

NIELSEN: Three dogs and they – and they’re your dogs?

KACHKAR: Ah, the one that – that one um and the miniature pincher, from

the other apartment – I got, I got that when she was in the

hospital.

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: And then the other one too; the other Chanel is my dog too.

They’re hers, she takes care of them. They’re her dogs.

NIELSEN: She takes care of them?

KACHKAR: Yeah, they’re her dogs.

NIELSEN: They’re her dogs?

KACHKAR: Yeah she registered them and gets their shots and everything.

NIELSEN: Okay. Now how long is your – has your wife ah lived there at

that address?

KACHKAR: 2005?

NIELSEN: 2005?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And did you live there with her at all? (KACHKAR shakes head)

So you - you never lived there with her?

KACHKAR: No.




NIELSEN: And – and – and am I right in saying that your wife lives there

with your two children? (KACHKAR nods head) Ashley and –

and Berj?

KACHKAR: Like on occasions, I do – I go there, I visit you know a day or

like oc’- occasions I go there and visit, but I'm not welcomed

there. I’m not.

NIELSEN: You're not welcomed there?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: Now why is that ah Richard?

KACHKAR: I don’t know. I don't know. Again, I don't know. You know, I –

I - doesn't matter where and if I’m on the other side of the world,

I'm concerned especially about Ashley and Berj; you know who

they go out with like the wi’- the wife will tell me oh she's got

this boyfriend or whatever so I'll make sure I’m there. You

know where are they going and you know they think they're

going camping or they think they're doing a lot of things. So, I

have to say to her you're not doing that, you're coming home at

11. But she was working and she's coming home and she wants




to go somewhere else at 12, I says you're not gonna (sic) do that.

Her mom doesn't have that ability. Her mom is just a nice lady

and everything and she just doesn't like arguments. But---

NIELSEN: Okay. So you - you're talking about your daughter now?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And your son?

KACHKAR: For my daughter and my son, I’m all – you know and I'm always

there. Even though I'm not wanted there, I'm not supposed to be

there, at least I do that, whether they like it or not. You know

because I know there were some things involved and kids in high

school what they do. So, I – I always wanted to be part of that.

Now when they got older ah Berj is doing his thing and he has

his construction and his - and his friends he's older; and Ashley

is at her school. I'm fine now. Her mom is ah taking care of

things.

NIELSEN: You think ah your wife is looking after things better now?

KACHKAR: Yeah.




NIELSEN: So it wasn't so good before?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Because kids were younger and they’re swearing at

everybody and everything like that you know and---

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: ---and at their mom and everything.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So mom sort of got used to that thing and I don't get used to it.

When they swear that says that’s it you’re out of here. There’s

no way you can, it’s not your house. I said I don't care whose

house it is and those kind of issues so.

NIELSEN: So will you have an arg’- did you have arguments with each

other?

KACHKAR: Well, not arguments but they’re like - because they know they

can't argue with me---

NIELSEN: Okay.




KACHKAR: ---when I say 11 o'clock, you be home at 11 o'clock.

NIELSEN: So you're more of the - of the disciplinarian than---

KACHKAR: That’s right.

NIELSEN: ---and your wife has a heart and she's more soft is that what

you're saying?

KACHKAR: Yeah. She's like you know lets guys go up into her room and

they hid in her room and I say no it's not going on. Let them go

get their own room that's not how it works. You don’t do that

around here. Because they’re coming there smoking - smoking

things and stuff like that in the house and I said that not going on

and my wife would go and come and tell me; oh and so she

leaves and come back and she says oh and they’re smoking,

smoking stuff and whatever, whatever. I says you know what

those guys you’se (sic) bring over if I – I kept them on the side

and I said well - I don't want to repeat it now. But - but I just

explained to them that you know - don't do that around here.

NIELSEN: Okay and how did ah - how did your children accept that from

you?




KACHKAR: Um, I think they - I think they – they – they - I think it’s – it’s

like me being here, how do I accept it? I don't wanna (sic) be

here, but I'm here and you know I have to live by the rules, and

the rules are right. So whether I wanted to complain or not you

know it's my business.

NIELSEN: You respect the rules?

KACHKAR: I respect the rules. I respect what's happening and - and that was

the whole reason I went to the shelter and everything. Because

I---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I need to get up early, have a little breakfast and have my

coffee and go do my work. I’m a toolmaker. I - I get up early

and do my thing and go to work; after work come home you

know and have a nice dinner, go for a walk but that's all.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: It’s simple.

NIELSEN: I understand.




KACHKAR: So it got too complicated and I don’t want to – I kept up getting

up at 12 and then eating this and that and coming home at

(UI:01).

NIELSEN: I’m just gonna (sic) - I’m gonna (sic) get back to that. But I

wanted to ask you and you said something um about your house

um – um – the one on Welland where your wife and your

children live? You said you're not welcome there; what do you

mean by that?

KACHKAR: Every time I go it's like what's he doing here and you know

something’s wrong there something -- they just don't like me.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: C-cuz (sic) I take up their time, my mom's time, and she pays

attention -- just kid stuff officer, just kid stuff - nothing, normal,

nothing you wouldn't have in anybody's family; anybody could

have that.

NIELSEN: It sounds like that to me. But---

KACHKAR: It is – it is - there’s nothing – there’s nothing.




NIELSEN: ---I’ve got teenagers so I can - I can relate a little bit ah and that

sounds like what you're describing.

KACHKAR: Yeah and the thing is I’m kind of---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I’m kind of um - I'm just a normal person too so when things

have not – and when things happen you know, could happen.

Like they start smoking drugs at school or whatever you gotta

(sic) accept it. It happened. That's what they're doing. There's

hundreds of kids, they're getting pregnant, they're doing that. So,

I don't know if you ah - there's a way to prevent it in every

family good or bad.

NIELSEN: I don't think there's any perfect way other than to understand

your - your child's life---

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: ---and then they try to be the parents.

KACHKAR: That’s what I did and---




NIELSEN: Is that what you were doing?

KACHKAR: That’s all what I was doing officer and like and I’ve even one

time when – when she went there, she moved to her place, I

went to go get my place. There’s many people. I used to go and

you know especially these um accommodations and so many

people wanted me to live with them and I'm a really good person

to get along with and cook and---

NIELSEN: You’re pretty easy going?

KACHKAR: Easy going; I never have a problem officer with anybody.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So, but that wasn't the point, I didn’t -- the point was I had to

finish this and make sure she’s okay and even until now to go to

school. I made sure she - you know she had to go to school, do

her student loan, get her things going and it's tough.

NIELSEN: It seems to me that – that you're trying to be a good dad.

KACHKAR: That’s all.




NIELSEN: That’s all you're doing?

KACHKAR: That’s all I'm doing.

NIELSEN: Okay. Now is - is there some um - is there some legal um – is

there some legal reason why you couldn't go back to the house?

KACHKAR: No because we've had arguments and things like that.

Arguments, my wife used to go you know I don't know when

she's coming home. We had that pulling and that tugging and

they were calling the police and this happened.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I was never charged or anything. I’d always wait there.

NIELSEN: Is that on the Welland Avenue house?

KACHKAR: No, that wasn’t even when I moved to Toronto -- I had a hou’- I

had a house in Toronto at Bangor and Sheppard.

NIELSEN: Okay.




KACHKAR: So that was co’- that was - I was paying over like $2500 dollars

for that and the hydro and everything.

NIELSEN: But did you rent or did you own that house?

KACHKAR: I was renting.

NIELSEN: You were renting it?

KACHKAR: I was working with a company at the time and when it came so it

was okay because I was getting okay and then that company

moved to Florida so I thought I’d stay. I liked Toronto and my

wife liked it here.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But she - I wanted - and we needed to scale down. We needed to

do something, but she has no communication skills - I mean

absolutely.

NIELSEN: Maro?

KACHKAR: Yeah. She can't. She knows it. She kind of always takes things

as if…when you tell her - when I talked to her she seems to




know it already and – and ah you know and we can't just say –

and say look and we’re in this situation, we need to scale down.

Why don't we go take a look at houses you know and it’s in a –

and not a - this could be an enjoyable time. But everything

seems to be oh no we’re moving again and so I - I have to – I

walk lightly. I walk on egg shells. So if we had a chance to

drive out - we were driving out to Niagara Falls just for a hou’-

for a visit---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---and everything. She didn't want to come or whatever. But she

came and then we stopped at St. Catharines and we found a little

apartment there for like $800 dollars or $700 dollars and that's it

and we decided to move there with the family; and we moved

there ri’- right away and she moved in. It was nice and ah then -

and then the kids put them to school.. She put them in school,

nice schools there.

NIELSEN: This is in St. Catharines and when - and what – and what year

was that ah Richard?

KACHKAR: About 2004; I think.




NIELSEN: 2004? So you moved from Toronto to there?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: Okay and how long had you worked in Toronto?

KACHKAR: I've been in Toronto since probably May of 2000.

NIELSEN: So about four years?

KACHKAR: Yeah or little bit more.

NIELSEN: Always at that same address on Bangor?

KACHKAR: Ah, no I was in - I was staying alone at one time when I was

working with the company because my family was in Vancouver

still. So I was working with the company and then I was

travelling like every two weeks I was going home for the

weekend. Like I’d leave at night, fly to Vancouver---

NIELSEN: Oh.




KACHKAR: ---see the kids and then go out. I’d leave in the evening and I’d

come to take the – the 11 o’clock flight and then go to Toronto,

go to the office in the morning.

NIELSEN: That must of been pretty stressful?

KACHKAR: Mostly on the kids, not on me.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: For me it was like you know and was it just a – it was hard.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But that’s - I thought that was gonna (sic) at least help me---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---and you know my future---

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---instead of sitting back. It was hard. I never had a dull

moment.




NIELSEN: What company were you working with at that time?

(Background noise.)

KACHKAR: At that time; Misa Pharmaceuticals.

(Background noise.)

NIELSEN: Misa? And what were you doing for them?

KACHKAR: I was just like office manager and helping them. Like tooling

and things like that.

NIELSEN: And when did you start working for – for Misa Pharmaceuticals?

KACHKAR: I think 99.

NIELSEN: 1999? And you said you were living in Vancouver; were you

living in Vancouver at the time? (KACHKAR nods head) Like

whereabouts in Vancouver were you living?

KACHKAR: I was in North Vancouver.




NIELSEN: North Vancouver?

KACHKAR: On um – on ah Phil Avenue (ph).

NIELSEN: Phil Avenue (ph). So you were there with – with Maro and your

children and ah how did you get this job with Misa

Pharmaceuticals?

KACHKAR: Um, I don't know through family, through ah – ah my uncle

came and I don't really remember that. I don't recall all those

things now.

NIELSEN: Your uncle? What's your uncle’s name?

KACHKAR: Ah, Fred.

NIELSEN: Fred? What's his last name?

KACHKAR: KACHKAR.

NIELSEN: Fred KACHKAR?

KACHKAR: M-hm.




NIELSEN: So did he - did he have a - a high position at the company or was

it his company?

KACHKAR: No, it was his son's company.

NIELSEN: His son’s company?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: And who’s his son?

KACHKAR: Um, Jack.

NIELSEN: Jack? So Jack actually owns Misa Pharmaceuticals?

KACHKAR: I think so, I don't know.

NIELSEN: Is it and that’s - so that's how you got the job? (KACHKAR

nods head) Okay so you started working in Vancouver and you

were an office manager?

KACHKAR: Yeah and he was buying a factory in ah - and buying a factory

and ah so I was just doing the due diligence on the - on the

acquisition.




NIELSEN: Where was that?

KACHKAR: Ah in New Jersey.

NIELSEN: In New Jersey?

KACHKAR: In Ferriton (ph). So I was sent out there and stayed late.

NIELSEN: What’s the name of the town or city?

KACHKAR: In Ferriton (ph).

NIELSEN: Ferriton (ph)?

KACHKAR: Ferriton (ph).

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: By Vineland

NIELSEN: Okay, I don't know New Jersey very well and so.

KACHKAR: M-hm. So it was a rough place---




NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: ---so they found the right guy. I get in there and it's all the

comp’- the factory is all dysfunctional and everything so they

wanna (sic) sell it and they have their list of all their things.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So now I'm gonna (sic) check it, check their software and all that

and things are winding up, that’s it.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Like that’s what was my job and then from there I would fly

back and---

NIELSEN: Back to Vancouver? Okay so was Misa based out of Misa –

Misa Pharmaceuticals?

KACHKAR: No out of Edmonton.

NIELSEN: Out of Edmonton? Okay so did you work out of Vancouver or

Edmonton?




KACHKAR: Edmonton. Sometimes I would take the lap top, but mostly, I

would be in Edmonton. So I've been away from my family since

1999 or so.

NIELSEN: Since 1999 - that's a long time.

KACHKAR: I've been with them, but because of the travel and that Y2K thing

and all that.

NIELSEN: Oh, yeah. I remember that.

KACHKAR: I handled all that because I had my computer; I had my ah you

know skills in that area.

NIELSEN: Are you – you good with the computer?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Where did you learn that?

KACHKAR: I've learned that at um (UI:01) College because I studied

architecture.




NIELSEN: I heard that and – and---

KACHKAR: I studied architecture in Armenia. My background is Armenian.

NIELSEN: Okay. Are you Armenian?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Well, my - I'm adopted.

NIELSEN: Oh, you are adopted?

KACHKAR: I’m adopted into an Armenian family.

NIELSEN: Okay and then what were you - what are you - your parent’s

names? Your adopted parents?

KACHKAR: Um Betty and Esbar KACHKAR.

NIELSEN: Esbar?

KACHKAR: Yes.

NIELSEN: Betty and Esbar? Okay. Are they still alive? They're not eh?

Were they living in Vancouver and they adopted you?




KACHKAR: Yeah, but in Edmonton. I think.

NIELSEN: In Edmonton?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I have three older sisters.

NIELSEN: Okay. Did you have a - another name before you were adopted?

KACHKAR: Um, see I had -- we had never been told my – my – and I was

never told that. People when I - I was never told---

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---I was adopted. I was treated nice and everything and then few

times it came up and my wife always says oh we need to know

who you - I really didn't need to know. I really didn’t want to

know because my parents weren't that good. My parents - like

people like they’re hard to explain. But where they take their

adopted people and they take better care of it so um

s’----

NIELSEN: How old were you when you were adopted?

KACHKAR: Just a baby.




NIELSEN: Just a baby? So did you - did you ever find out - have you ever

met your ah your---

KACHKAR: No, I---

NIELSEN: ---your birth mother?

KACHKAR: No. No. I was in Vancouver and in Toronto once and I phoned

cuz (sic) I was in Toronto and I - when I was there working and I

called - there’s some - there’s now an adoption - an open

Adoption Registry and everything like that. So, I was in the

process of that.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Like after that I don't know and they sent me a letter or

something, but I don't know where that letter is or no - no

follow-up.

NIELSEN: So you – you - you don't -- you had no other name that you knew

of that you went by until you were born? (KACHKAR shakes

head) Okay and so you - you were adopted in Edmonton when

you were a baby?




KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: Okay. Where did you grow up?

KACHKAR: In Edmonton.

NIELSEN: You grew up in Edmonton? Okay and do you have any brothers,

sisters?

KACHKAR: Just three older sisters.

NIELSEN: Three older sisters?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: What are their names?

KACHKAR: Grace, and Da’- Ingrid and Daisy.

NIELSEN: Grace?

KACHKAR: Ingrid and Daisy.




NIELSEN: And Daisy - and were they adopted as well? (KACHKAR

shakes head) Okay, so they---

KACHKAR: I don't think so.

NIELSEN: Okay. So you---

KACHKAR: But - I don't think so. It's something like they knew something

was different you know and there was always something --

normal stuff.

NIELSEN: How did you find your life in Edmonton when you were growing

up?

KACHKAR: It was rough and it was a tough city you know? You know a

tough city. I used to go to c’- store, the corner store and get

robbed and punched out, and get robbed as a young kid. From

day one, right out in from of the store.

NIELSEN: Yeah?

KACHKAR: Just running all the time. School and always running and

running and always people just running and problems and---




NIELSEN: Did you um - you went to school in Edmonton I take it? How

far did you get in school?

KACHKAR: I went to high school. Archbishop. I went to Our Lady of the

Victories in elementary and then St. Paul's a Junior High and ah

high school, I went to um Archbishop MacDonald.

NIELSEN: How far did you go in high school?

KACHKAR: Grade 12.

NIELSEN: Grade 12? How did you do in school?

KACHKAR: Um, some things I did well, some things I didn't.

NIELSEN: What were you good at?

KACHKAR: Like um math and machining and ah - something language arts

and either I did really well – really well or I did really bad.

NIELSEN: What did you do bad in?

KACHKAR: Um chemistry and stuff like that. It wouldn't make sense to me




NIELSEN: What was your favourite subjects when you were going through

school? I personally, I hated math but ah I liked the sciences.

KACHKAR: Drafting and things like that. Machine shop, machining.

NIELSEN: Okay. Were you good at it? Did you have a lot of friends

Richard when you were in school? Yeah?

KACHKAR: Some. A different – some - and some friend. Like I had a few

friends, a few certain friends. We – we had certain friends in

high sc’- in ah - in high school.

VRUNA: (Clears throat.)

NIELSEN: What did you like to do when you were in school? Did you have

any hobbies? Did you play sports or anything like that?

KACHKAR: Yeah. After school we’d – you know our my buddies and I we

would do street hockey, do normal things.

NIELSEN: Yeah? You play hockey?

KACHKAR: Like I didn’t go into the - I wasn’t able to go play, but I played.

I played ah with them - with them when I could.




NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: I’d find a stick here and tape it up or whatever.

NIELSEN: Just a regular---

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: --- a regular Canadian kid who played street hockey.

KACHKAR: That’s it. Because my parents brought me up different. I - I

started working when I was young I was working when I was 14

working at dishwashing in my first year.

NIELSEN: Oh, yeah?

KACHKAR: So, I worked all summer and then---

NIELSEN: Where was that?

KACHKAR: That was at Mayfield Inn in Edmonton because my uncle would

take me right?




NIELSEN: 14? So, you were young when you started working then?

KACHKAR: My uncle was the manager there and I liked that and then that

school, I had my car. I always had a car when I was 14 even.

NIELSEN: You had a car when you were 14?

KACHKAR: When I started to learn my learners---

NIELSEN: Your learners?

KACHKAR: ---when I was 16 my dad gave me his car and---

NIELSEN: He gave you the car? What was the first car you had?

KACHKAR: It’s um a 1978 Meteor Monte Carlo. Because I’d go use that to

go pick up my mom and ah from work - she worked at the

hospital until 11.

NIELSEN: So you must of been pretty popular, a 16-year-old with a car?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I did - it was okay. To a lot of people it was okay, I had a

lot of friends and there was no reason to not to be any problems.




NIELSEN: Did you have no - no problems in - in school?

(Background noise - phone ringing.)

KACHKAR: A couple of times there were some guys, I don't know where

they pop out of ah - I don't know like (phone ringing in the

background) – KACHKAR we’re gonna (sic) kill you or

whatever. Come after me with a knife and---

(Telephone ringing in the background.)

KACHKAR: ---some guys from other schools.

NIELSEN: Now why would they - why would these---

(Telephone ringing in the background.)

NIELSEN: ---people be saying that to you?

KACHKAR: Just like bullies, just like today, bullies. They always come out

with their plan because I went to an academic school---

NIELSEN: Right.




KACHKAR: I need to do my thing and there's some guys that have been in jail

already since 12 years old stealing cars or whatever.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So now they're still on - you know I maybe asked his brother –

oh, where's your brother and how come he's not in school or

whatever and that’s it. They’re chasing me around and keep

coming to me Rich and you know the guys wants to kill you with

a knife so I’d take off already out of the back door.

NIELSEN: Were they - was it just you in particular or were there other

people?

KACHKAR: No, it was just me.

NIELSEN: Or were they be treated the same way?

KACHKAR: No, it was just me.

NIELSEN: It was just you eh?

KACHKAR: Just me.




NIELSEN: And that sounds pretty tough, but you're finished school right?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: So what did you do when you finished high school?

KACHKAR: I was working um - with um – with a rental company; I got a job

rental - a rental company and he had contracts with um

apartments and things. So you find - you call them and we pick

you up and then I find you a ten – I’d find accommodations for

you like if you called and you said you’re new in town. I'd come

and pick you up and he's telling me oh I want to go check out

some places and then I know - and that’s it and then I get um a

commission. 50% of the first month rent.

NIELSEN: It sounds pretty good.

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And I mean for a young guy and right out of school?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I would be a – a lot of my friends always would ask me

they need a job, and they need a job and everything. But you




know what to go get a job, you have to go get a job that's the first

thing.

NIELSEN: That’s right.

KACHKAR: You know I can ask and I can do, and I can have contacts, but

you really need to just go and get one. So that was that and then

– then ah it was just – and people were growing up in high

school with hockey and everything and then those years maybe.

At la’- after high school my family friend came and he studied in

Armenia.

NIELSEN: Who’s that?

KACHKAR: His name was Raffy BALIAN (ph). He was a - a doctor.

NIELSEN: Raffy BABIAN (ph)?

KACHKAR: BABIAN (ph). He’s a friend and so he's a friend of my - well

sister’s husband’s from Lebanon or something so when he came

to ah - he came to Edmonton to visit so I went to pick him up, I

was like younger too and you know he was older than me. He

was a doctor; I think so.




NIELSEN: How old were you then do you think?

KACHKAR: Probably, 18.

NIELSEN: 18?

KACHKAR: So, him – yeah, I helped – and I would go pick him up and go

stay at his house because I didn't like my place at home. I didn't

like it you know. I wasn't able to do much and---

NIELSEN: How come?

KACHKAR: I don't know and you know girls and they always do their own

thing. My parents were smoking, chain smokers all the time.

NIELSEN: Did you get along with your parents?

KACHKAR: Ah, I did because I – I did - I just did.

NIELSEN: Yeah?

KACHKAR: But if otherwise, I didn't because you know I wouldn't. Um, I

don't know. Sometimes they did and sometimes we didn't it

would all depend on their mood. It wasn't a normal relationship.




NIELSEN: Wha’- what makes it not normal? In your mind?

KACHKAR: Well, I never seemed to be able to do anything right and---

NIELSEN: You?

KACHKAR: M-hm. Yeah.

NIELSEN: But then now who - gave you that idea?

KACHKAR: I don't know, just the way it is. You know like I’d go to work.

NIELSEN: Was it your mother or your father?

KACHKAR: Kind of yeah and the sisters. Like ah they always knew

something I didn’t you know. I’d come - I’d be adopted and

then when I was 15, I was like working in the kitchen---

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: ---and making prep things and everything so we had to peel

garlic right? I peeled - peel bags of garlic. So, I remember when

they used to come and pick me up they’d like be ewe and what's




that smell? That kind of stuff, stupid stuff. Like now I would of

said it’s garlic you know, get used to it. Then I was just a youth,

I didn't understand.

NIELSEN: Okay. So is that the extent of why you didn't think you had a - a

great relationship with them?

KACHKAR: I---

NIELSEN: Or is there something else? Did you get along - did you get

along um better with your dad or your mom?

KACHKAR: Well, I think with my dad I used to get along and they had a

business and everything and I always used to go help them in

their business after school or---

NIELSEN: What, what was the business that they had?

KACHKAR: A men’s wear store.

NIELSEN: Men’s wear?




KACHKAR: And they had it - it was on the other side of the city so after my

dad was working, working for the Government all day then he'd

go to the store.

NIELSEN: So he had two jobs? He worked – what did he do for the

Government?

KACHKAR: He was a communication’s technician and operated Government

telephones.

NIELSEN: And then they had a store as well?

KACHKAR: And then he bought a store.

NIELSEN: So he was doing both at the same time? What - what was the

name of the store?

KACHKAR: Dior’s Men's Wear (ph).

NIELSEN: Now was that in Edmonton as well?

KACHKAR: That was in Edmonton North Town Mall so it was really and I’d

have the suits - I remember we came here to Montréal to - and

from Tor’- we were in Edmonton and we drove to Montréal and




he’d buy the suits and he’d make – he’d make and he would

have the things made by Shipley and Ricky Allen. Nice suits.

NIELSEN: All high-end stuff?

KACHKAR: And then there was a lot of people that - from you know on the

oil rigs and things like that they come in. He set them up nice, a

suit on and everything like that.

NIELSEN: So did they - and did the business do well?

KACHKAR: The business did really well. It was doing well and my mom

would work there too, but she - she worked in the hospital and an

administrator in the hos-- hospital.

NIELSEN: Which hospital was that?

KACHKAR: Royal Alexander Hospital.

NIELSEN: So your mom worked in a hospital and your dad worked for the

Government and he ran ah the store?

KACHKAR: And she did - she worked at the store until… she used to work at

the store and it could be the morning until he gets there so she




can go to her job, so basically we kids were at home and do –

just do what we do so when I used to come home and try to

make something to eat and---

NIELSEN: So it sounds to me like your parents were out a lot because of the

jobs? So – now, I – I didn't ask you, but are your sisters older

than you or younger?

KACHKAR: Older than me.

NIELSEN: They’re all older? Now you're 44 right? And how old are your

sisters?

KACHKAR: I don't know a little older than me. 45 or 46 and I mean 48 and

ah Daisy 50 something. I lost communication because when my

mom was sick and – and I was working and she was sick I came

um - I came to see her because she was sick and it's hard - it's

hard for me to fly back and forth. Like I had my time every two

weeks I could say I’m going home and I could fly out.

NIELSEN: When was that?

KACHKAR: Ah, when I started working like with the Pharmaceutical

Company.




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So when my mom was sick and I don't recall the year so I wasn't

able to go out that much so when she did pass away and I went

there they would - nobody would even hugged me or anything so

it was over and it’s just as well.

NIELSEN: So you weren't very close at that time?

KACHKAR: I was very close with my mom. My mom.

NIELSEN: What about your sisters? That's what I'm - is that what you're

saying to me?

KACHKAR: Yeah. But that was just weird and they - and they were just

weird like and they were just weird and I didn't have anything to

do with them.

NIELSEN: Why do you think that was?

KACHKAR: I don't know. I don't know. They enjoyed their lifestyle there

and my parents and---




NIELSEN: So at some point ah when you were growing up with your sisters

were you - were you not close with them or you - you weren't?

You weren't?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: So and – ah just to get back to what you are talking about with

this ah - ah this doctors and is it Ra’- Raffy? This doctor?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: No? What happened there?

KACHKAR: So, when he came he was a cool guy and everything he said um -

and he sa’- he told my parents you should send Richard to

Armenia.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So that was a surprise to me.

NIELSEN: And you were 18 at this time?

KACHKAR: I was 18.




NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: And when he said it, I said I don't think so. I mean, I'm just

getting ready now and I'm ready to go because I didn't have any

girlfriends or anything like that. We weren't allowed to

have…like, guy friends.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: But there was none of that kind of relationships stuff.

NIELSEN: Were your parents strict?

KACHKAR: Not really, no.

NIELSEN: No?

KACHKAR: No, I could go out and come. They trusted me a lot and I had

good friends.

NIELSEN: How come you didn't have girlfriends?

KACHKAR: No, I had friends like girls.




NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: But not those kind of girls that we bring home and sleep with

them and stuff like that doesn’t go on like that.

NIELSEN: And why is that?

KACHKAR: Just apparently – and just we’re not like that you know?

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: The same with my wife, she's the first person I met and like the

first person I’m with. And I met her in Armenia.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So, I had lots of - I had lots of girls coming and going or

whatever.

NIELSEN: You didn't have like a steady?

KACHKAR: No.




NIELSEN: Intimate girlfriends?

KACHKAR: No. No, never.

NIELSEN: And growing up?

KACHKAR: No. No.

NIELSEN: Your wife was the first one is that what you're saying? The first

ah woman that you were intimate with? Okay. So Raffy says to

your folks you…

KACHKAR: I should go to the Armenia.

NIELSEN: Armenia? Okay.

KACHKAR: So at first I said oh I don't think so and you know and this and

that; and ah so I went and I did some research and then when my

mom said oh you're going to Armenia. I said, I knew that, then -

then I better go because my mom made - my mom would then

tell me---

NIELSEN: She wanted to go?




KACHKAR: She said you should go

NIELSEN: Okay. Do you speak Armenian by the way?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Did you learn that growing up?

KACHKAR: No. So, when I went there I didn't speak any language or

anything. I went by myself and I had a few hundred dollars in

my pocket and a suitcase and - and then go to Montréal and then

I went to Moscow and then when I was there um---

NIELSEN: So you're 18, pretty young?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: It must of - now did you go by yourself?

KACHKAR: By myself.

NIELSEN: And so what happens when you get there?




KACHKAR: Ah my flight I kind of figured out and a flight goes there you

know I'm kind of like ah - ah I'm kind of shy type so I go and -

and I’m looking for my flight. My flight’s there and it's gone

because I have the ticket from here. The flights gone, flights

gone and maybe three days in the – in the airport in Moscow.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So my flight is gone and there’s just - and they’re just ignoring

me so finally somehow they put me on a plane and I flew there

and my relatives picked me up there and I don't know where we

were and what was going on.

NIELSEN: This is Moscow?

KACHKAR: In Armenia now.

NIELSEN: Armenia?

KACHKAR: Armenia and I was coming down with other people and they

grab you and everything you know.

NIELSEN: Is there a city in Armenia?




KACHKAR: Yerevan.

NIELSEN: Yerevan?

KACHKAR: Yerevan.

NIELSEN: So that's where you landed? Yeah and that's why your relatives

went there?

KACHKAR: Yeah. They picked me up and - and brought me home.

NIELSEN: Which relatives met you there?

KACHKAR: My mom's - mom’s older relatives because they're from Egypt.

Because there was a geno - in 1915 or something there was a

genocide and half my family flew back went to - and stayed in

Russia. Some went to Egypt and my mom was born in Egypt.

NIELSEN: Your mother was born in Egypt. How about your dad?

KACHKAR: I think my dad was born in Lebanon.

NIELSEN: Lebanon?




KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And they - and they ended up in Russia?

KACHKAR: No, they never went to Russia.

NIELSEN: Or Armenia?

KACHKAR: No they never did. They met in – in Egypt and then my dad they

went to – Europe, to Sweden. My dad was setting up the phone

systems in the Middle East and my dad’s a phone technician and

my mo’- and my mom was setting up the embassies also in Saudi

Arabia.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: And so.

NIELSEN: So it's from there that they came to Canada?

KACHKAR: Yeah and they – and my dad says he liked it there and he had

prob’- he liked Beruit he says. But there's always problems and

fighting and he says he'd come back to ah - go back to Canada

and he came to Edmonton. Actually, he came from some - I




don't know where Vancouver or something working in factories

and so on. But Edmonton is where he - we started in 1964 or

something.

NIELSEN: That’s when you came to Canada? In 64?

KACHKAR: My two other sisters were born in I think Lebanon. But me and

Grace - Grace and I were born in Edmonton.

NIELSEN: You were born in Edmonton? Okay so this ah - and when you

get to Armenia and you’re - what's the name of the town?

Yerevan?

KACHKAR: Yerevan.

NIELSEN: Yerevan.

KACHKAR: So it's a preparatory school, a University just for thing, so they

give you a little room and then you – you go to class and brand-

new language. I thought I was gonna (sic) study Russian and

they said no and you're gonna (sic) study Armenian; and

Armenian is a very difficult language, 36 letters, complete

different and everything.




NIELSEN: That’s university?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I went to university. So we started, started giving me the lo’- the

letters of the alphabet and go home you know and then when you

go home there’s a lot of students there that already know the

language from Lebanon, from different countries. Syria. So

they're all partying because that first year is like preparatory for

them, next year you go to University.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So again, I had to be alone and now I had problems with them

again. I had problems again.

NIELSEN: What kind of problems?

KACHKAR: Like um I was learning the language rapidly, I learned it rapidly

like it was - it didn't take me long, I could start communicating.




NIELSEN: Did you have like a - do you have a knack for picking up

languages?

KACHKAR: I picked it up quick.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: It wasn't a knack. I’m I’m when I'm able and I'm comfortable in

everything like anybody else. Have the ability, you can do it. So

I remember going to the - I don't know it was a party, a New

Year's party and I guess these guys were gang were - and those

people I want with and they were from Lebanon and they spoke

English. So, I was always hang – hanging – I was with them and

then I would - we’d sit there and then um just dancing - you

know they dance there and they eat and they dance and

everybody was dancing around.

NIELSEN: Sure.

KACHKAR: Some guy head butts me or whatever in the - and comes like that

pushes me around on the floor. I’m just about to come after him

too; and one of my buddies says no don't – don’t do that or

whatever.




NIELSEN: Why did he do that to you?

KACHKAR: Well, I - I don't know maybe I don't know what he was on. It

was just I guess there were gangs; two gangs.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So, I says - so I sat down for awhile I says better leave and then

when I left - I started to leave, I saw those guys – and there’s a

whole bunch of guys at the door and all that so.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So a big confrontation with them. Pulled out knives and

everything and cut me up everything.

NIELSEN: Where did you get cut?

KACHKAR: Like on my back and my shirt. It wasn't bad because they were

hitting me and it wasn't really - it wasn't really putting me down

so I just pu’- did what I could do and then I moved on and then

the next day they round all these guys up and find out that um

they were after me already.




NIELSEN: And why? Did you ever find out why they were after you?

KACHKAR: Because I was with the other group and, you know.

NIELSEN: They thought you were part of the other group?

KACHKAR: Yeah and you know where I go, we have fun. I don't hang - I

don't like trouble and if I – my and even my – my best friend or

something never liked trouble; not even downtown I have a

friend and I stay with him. He drinks too much and everything I

tell you - you know and I'm---

NIELSEN: What friend is that?

KACHKAR: Stevie B - Stephen BROWN.

NIELSEN: Stephen BROWN?

KACHKAR: He has an apartment there. He's a nice kid. He's a nice boy.

NIELSEN: Yeah?

KACHKAR: He does his Tin thing and everything. He’s just - you know, just

a man trying to survive.




NIELSEN: How long have you known him for?

KACHKAR: Ah, I met him when I was in Toronto. I met him through some

friends because I was – through Stap’- I was getting orders

through Staples delivery.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: And so I met one guy and he was nice and he had me - after

work we met up.

NIELSEN: Which guy was nice?

KACHKAR: Norman.

NIELSEN: Norman?

KACHKAR: Norman and he was a nice guy and I was new to Toronto and -

because we had people coming in from the UK and stuff too and

they said oh don’t you have any friends or mates? I said; no. So

when you - when I don't have I just I don't know it just happened

I just pray and I had some friends. So they - and then I met

them and then through them I – I’m - I went to s’- the – like oh




and we’re going to a birthday party and come along, come along.

So that's how I met, that’s how I started to meet my friends’

downtown.

NIELSEN: In Toronto?

KACHKAR: In Toronto.

NIELSEN: Just kind of going to parties, social - regular social events.

KACHKAR: New experiences for me officer. New experience. I've never

been there. Especially in Regent Park there and ah---

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: ---that corner where I - and why would I go there? I would never

go and I don't even know like what - and I go there at night.

NIELSEN: So these guys are your - and that's where they were living or

staying?

KACHKAR: Yeah. No that's where they live.

NIELSEN: That’s where they live?




KACHKAR: They live. So I see you know where they're living and they ah

that life and everything and---

NIELSEN: When was that - when did you meet ah - when did you start

meeting these people in Toronto?

KACHKAR: It was like 90 um - I just remember 93 or so.

NIELSEN: 93 and that’s when you?

KACHKAR: No. No, later. Later. Later. 2000. 2003, I think.

NIELSEN: Okay. Is that when you were here living with your family?

KACHKAR: Yeah, on Bangor Street in Toronto.

NIELSEN: Is that when you started meeting these guys?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I met one guy and then I met his friend; and he was a

really nice guy. He's from Jamaica.

NIELSEN: Which guy is that?




KACHKAR: His name is Peter.

NIELSEN: Peter?

KACHKAR: Peter.

NIELSEN: Do you know his last name?

KACHKAR: Um, I do. Peter um PASOA (ph).

NIELSEN: He’s from Jamaica?

KACHKAR: Yeah. So, he's nice.

VRUNA: Sorry, what’s his name?

KACHKAR: POASA. P-O-A-S-A. POASA. So, he was always nice. When

he started working, he started working at Krispy Kreme and

driving and we always used to – I always used to call him he and

he got - and we always used to talk about work and everything

like that. You know, I would tell you officer and if we were - if I

was messing around with him, I would - I would tell you know

and we’re doing this and that; but we weren't and we were just

chilling.




NIELSEN: Just doing the - and just regular buddy stuff? Hanging out. What

kind of things would you do?

KACHKAR: Just buy a six pack and sit down you know and then talk about

things and because we were older. So now when we were older,

a lot of these younger kids are just coming around and this and

that. So we started to like you know put - put kids in their place

too especially around there. Kids were coming around and - and

you know they'd respect us and---

NIELSEN: So when you were hang around with these guys, you were

hanging around Regent Park? That’s where most of um - your

buddies lived? This gu’- this guy Steve um how long have you

known him for?

KACHKAR: I just met him at - and he - I met him and he - he was there at one

party or something like that. When I was going there ---

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: --- It - it was very strange for me. It was strange. The lifestyle

was strange so.




NIELSEN: Strange in – in what way?

KACHKAR: Everybody’s there and going and coming, and they're smoking

all that you know and---

NIELSEN: When you say smoking what do you mean?

KACHKAR: Well, they’re smoking weed and that.

NIELSEN: Weed?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Okay. Not cigarettes, smoking weed?

KACHKAR: Smoking weed like it’s nothing; I guess.

NIELSEN: So you were doing drugs?

KACHKAR: Drinking. Yeah. So for me it was like unusual.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: And---




NIELSEN: Did you get into it?

KACHKAR: No. No.

NIELSEN: Do - do you smoke ah - you don’t smoke weed? Ever?

KACHKAR: No, I use to take you know I used to try and everything. But I

don't smoke.

NIELSEN: No? Any other drugs you take?

KACHKAR: No sir.

NIELSEN: Never tried ah any other illegal drugs?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: No. Even - even when I drink if my in-laws are home; I says

we’re gonna (sic) drink they say; no, no we don't wanna (sic)

drink and so um---




NIELSEN: You don't drink either?

KACHKAR: I do drink, but I – when I drink, I just become you know I

become more open and---

NIELSEN: You lose your inhibitions.

KACHKAR: Yeah, I just say things that I say and---

NIELSEN: That you ah, wouldn’t say when you are…

KACHKAR: No, I would say it; but when I'm drinking it’s like it's different.

It's hard to explain. It's better I don't anyway. It's not good for

you.

NIELSEN: Okay. Do you drink a lot?

KACHKAR: No. Not even beers.

NIELSEN: No.

KACHKAR: Not even beers. No, sir.




NIELSEN: So when you drink and what – and what would you normally

drink?

KACHKAR: I drink, I don't know maybe make a drink with the wife, a

cocktail or something – and if it’s something nice and then we

drink it and I just giggle.

NIELSEN: You just get happy?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I just giggle.

NIELSEN: Do you ever have any - any problems with ah drugs or alcohol?

KACHKAR: No sir.

NIELSEN: Never?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: This guy Steve; so you know him since about 2000? When’s the

last time you seen him?




KACHKAR: By New Year when I came to town and that's why I'm having all

these dates um one - I thought it was just after New Year's

because on New Year’s, I went - wanted to go home.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: I went home because I was - I went home and they were eating

and they just didn't – they were standing by the door and when I

came in, my kids said, oh, he's here again, he's here back so.

NIELSEN: So when you say New Year's are you talking about January 1st?

KACHKAR: Something like that.

NIELSEN: Like regular New Year's or some other New Year's?

KACHKAR: No just regular New Year's.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So then I just turned around and I walked back to um – walked

back to ah the bus stop.




NIELSEN: Now when you say you went to see them you're talking about

your wife and your children?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Is that the last time you saw them? Can you tell me about that,

what happened then? Okay, this is New Year's?

KACHKAR: I think so.

NIELSEN: And you went to their house?

KACHKAR: I think they were eating and getting ready to eat or whatever and

I just went in and – I didn’t - I just went in and they were all

looking.

NIELSEN: You went inside?

KACHKAR: No, just a little bit.

NIELSEN: So you’re just in the doorway and what happened?

KACHKAR: They just said you're not welcome and I was prepared for that

already. I knew that. That happens often.




NIELSEN: Why? Why were you not welcome?

KACHKAR: I don't know. They don’t tell you - they wouldn't tell me you

know?

NIELSEN: They wouldn’t tell you? Is it – is this – was that something that

had been going on for a while ah Richard, that you weren't

welcome there?

KACHKAR: Ah, like when her parents came and I went picked up her parents

from the airport, everything is cool and when they wanted to go

to Niagara Falls it's all cool we go; they buy their shirts and

everything and we get home, come downstairs; “oh you have to

go” um.

NIELSEN: Now whose parents is that?

KACHKAR: My wife's parents.

NIELSEN: Your wife's parents?

KACHKAR: They came in from town and all their relatives came into town; I

said fine I'm in and out. You know what I know it's - I know it's




not right. It’s like right now you could say okay get lost and

then - and then and then say okay Richard come in and get lost

you know; I - I would go with it. Because you have your

authority and you have your right you're an off’- you know and

you – you have---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I'm just saying manners is your own business people.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: If you wanna (sic) tell me, you tell me. But if you don't want to

tell me, you don't have to tell me. But they weren’t telling me

and then they says oh you have to go so here I go.


KACHKAR: Like in summer; like when her parents were here in summer.

NIELSEN: Last summer?

KACHKAR: It was hotter days.




NIELSEN: Was it last summer of 2010?

KACHKAR: This this last summer we had the eight. Yeah, the last summer.

NIELSEN: Of 2010?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: So her parents came to town?

KACHKAR: Her parents - her parents - her – her sister and brother from Iran.

Her other mother-in-law, their two kids. Had like 12 people in

the house and they just didn't want me around for sure. So, I just

packed my bag and I go. I go to Stevie's house because I had a

key for Stephen's house.

NIELSEN: Is this Stephen BROWN?

KACHKAR: Stephen BROWN.

NIELSEN: Stephen BROWN---

KACHKAR: Yeah.




NIELSEN: ---in Regent Park?

KACHKAR: Yeah and he had a room on.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: But he's a nice guy, You know he cooks and everything and

we’re okay and nobody comes in that room when I'm there.

NIELSEN: You guys are good buddies?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I think so. He – he does his thing. He respects me a lot

and you know he does and he always helps me.

NIELSEN: So you had some problem with your wife's parents?

KACHKAR: No, I didn't have any problem--- it was nothing just - they just

came and after we went out to Niagara Falls and everything and I

came down. It’s like oh good we’re gonna (sic) have an evening

and go to - and she just said – she said you have to go.

NIELSEN: Who said you had to go?

KACHKAR: My wife.




NIELSEN: Your wife. How did you feel about that?

KACHKAR: Just - used to it already. I was used to having my bag ready

already that's how I am.

NIELSEN: Now you told me initially that you weren't living there at that

time?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Now were you staying there from time to time? (KACHKAR

nods head) How often would you stay there?

KACHKAR: Few days. You know a few days here and there and then. Any

time I was there I would be like in the basement. I wouldn't even

come out of the basement and that would make her mad and she

- and she was mad because I'm not allowed to be there. Because

they gave her that on special condition.

NIELSEN: M-hm. You mean the?

KACHKAR: The apartment.




NIELSEN: The ah – the unit?

KACHKAR: Yeah, the unit.

NIELSEN: So did they - the understanding was that she could live there---

KACHKAR: With the kids.

NIELSEN: ---did that, did that have to do with um some kind of income she

was getting or?

KACHKAR: Income and our arguments, and our misunderstanding with the

kids.

NIELSEN: So um when did that become an issue?

KACHKAR: Those things are always like issues and ever – and every

movement with her is like kind of like that you know? I can - I

can go there I know the managers there and everything---

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: go walk the dogs. I don't have any restraining order or anything

like that.




NIELSEN: So you got no legal restraining order or nothing? So um---

KACHKAR: It’s when they need me basically they need me; when they don't

need me they kick me out of the house, that’s all.

NIELSEN: Okay. Were you providing any source of ah financial support to

your family?

KACHKAR: Well, when I work, I was working – I’d always work. I’d go

work with agencies and ah they’d always call me.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So, I'd get up early 4 o'clock, she would make breakfast you

know I take my little lunch, and go work and that's what was

happening; my – my first job was like working at um – this

plastic company in Belleville in the plastic company they make

hand dispensers. So, I do really well when I go into these

companies---

(TIME IS 1:00:43 VIDEO

RECORDING STOPPED




WORKING THE

FOLLOWING PORTION

IS AUDIO)

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---with my tool making experience. I do really well and I get

even the jobs $10 dollars an hour but they're paying the $15

dollars an hour so I've got a $10 dollar attitude and they've got a

$15 dollar expectation. So, but it didn't matter; I would work

always and they would pick me up and plus they pick you up and

you - and they charge you $10 dollars.

NIELSEN: So you – you're making your - you're making money by doing

temporary jobs?

KACHKAR: Ah, yeah and I’ll get – and not only temporary, I worked at

Sleighgrove (ph). Any job I get into, I get in.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Nice and welcomed.




NIELSEN: Did you stay long there?

KACHKAR: Oh, yeah. I stayed long like six months, seven months.

NIELSEN: Then how would - why would you leave the jobs that you got?

KACHKAR: It’s over the contract but they’re making heaters and things like

that so when that's over I just have to look for a new job.

NIELSEN: And this is through a job placement agency so there's like a

contract they go to the agency---

NIELSEN: ---look for people for a certain period of time? Is that what

you're talking about you would say for that length of time; and

sometimes I know ah from ah other people's experience ah

people get to stay on of those jobs. Did that ever happened to

you, did anybody ever offer you---

KACHKAR: Um---

NIELSEN: ---full-time jobs?




KACHKAR: ---that would be creepy and it had become such a - such a big

deal for those people like---

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---I was working for Ferrero Roche, Ferrero Roche the chocolate

factory at the time.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: Packaging and everything. I mean you know they got the brown

shirts and then the blue shirts and all that; and I have my white

coat, I'm happy with my white coat. I'm happy; I don't need a

brown shirt or anything.

NIELSEN: So when you would make money would you provide some -

some money to your wife?

KACHKAR: Oh, yeah.

NIELSEN: How often would you do that?

KACHKAR: Every - anytime I had money. I would---




NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: --- go shopping or - or pay something. Pay for my ah, pay for

something.

NIELSEN: Okay. Now are we talking recent - recently?

KACHKAR: Ah, recently it was hard. Ah recently I was working with a

construction company and we were – I was - I was supervise the

the um 333 ah the Bay - Adelaide Centre.

NIELSEN: So you were gonna (sic) supervise?

KACHKAR: Supervise the construction project at - for the – for that – for the

downstairs.

NIELSEN: The project?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And what’s ah - what are - are you trained to do that?




KACHKAR: Yeah, supervise - well, in construction, I’m - with my

architecture and the plans I can read drawings. I'm very good at

reading drawings.

NIELSEN: Were you actually working for a company?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: What was the name of the company?

KACHKAR: The company was um Renovate All and it’s, so I was helping

him with other projects, but he wanted me to manage that

project. So I was---

NIELSEN: Who - who's he?

KACHKAR: Um, Maroon - Marone ZATAR.

NIELSEN: Marone ZATAR? So he was your boss? He hired you - when

did he hire you?

KACHKAR: I don't remember the date exactly it was in ah May or something.

So it was on and off.




NIELSEN: Of last year?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And he hired you to be a supervisor at a construction site?

KACHKAR: No he hired me first just to come on and we were building a

house and doing things though.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So, he eventually – um and you know he's got that leave – ah the

new contract.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So he wanted me to be supervisor and be there and ah do those

things. I am good at that. I am good at that because---

NIELSEN: You are good at?

KACHKAR: Making sure, like, the protocols with the security downstairs.

No contractors - you don't leave doors open; I had no problem




telling contractors or whatever move their vans or – I’m kind of

always out there.

NIELSEN: So you're a good supervisor? A good site supervisor? Are you

still working for him? When did you stop working for him?

KACHKAR: Like I was working and then I called um - then he called me, he

said oh job starting, but I had already started working with ah

Ferrero Roche in the chocolate factory.


KACHKAR: May again; I don't know.

NIELSEN: Of last year?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Of 2010?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: So---




KACHKAR: I started with him. I went in to work with him, and doing

construction and doing that and cleaning up the houses, getting

them ready, waiting – kind of supervisor labour work.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I mean his house was finished and he thought that we – we

would go to other projects too to fix, he would have these other

homes to go to. He would also take me, we’d go fix them up and

things like that. I’d use his van and so on - so then now this - this

one came along and this to the building of a sushi restaurant –

for Blow Fish Sushi Restaurant.

NIELSEN: Right. Where’s that?

KACHKAR: The one on King Street. I've never been to that one.

NIELSEN: In Toronto?

KACHKAR: In Toronto.

NIELSEN: Okay.




KACHKAR: So he now wanted me to supervise that project. So I had already

started when I go into the building I always have to go

downstairs with my ID you know for the ah security and so on.

Any contractor who comes in had to come with me. Even in the

beginning there the first contractor would come in and I say hold

on here is different. So I was just – I’d just be myself. So that's

what I'm saying and then - and then I really wa’- I want it and

then I would come back for some meetings and so on that's when

my in-laws were in town. So about when that happened then I

came back and the agency called me again. The agency calls me

almost every morning.

NIELSEN: Okay and what agency is that?

KACHKAR: I think um Universal Staffing or CNN Staffing.

NIELSEN: Is that in Toronto?

KACHKAR: In St. Catharines.

NIELSEN: In St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: Every day they’d call me even if for issues - they’d call me.




NIELSEN: And - and is that because you’re a good ah - you're a good

worker?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I'm a good guy. I get out there, I do my thing and nobody

- and nobody ever heard prob’- problems you know and they like

me a lot. So ah you know when they call, if they have a nice job;

I don't like to go out to those other chicken places, killing

chickens and whatever. I don't do those things and certain jobs.

So---

NIELSEN: Just ah – this so the job that you were doing like a construction

supervisor; why is it that you stopped working there?

KACHKAR: Well, it - it was on hold because he was getting - they were

getting their contractors together. They had to get some funding

together, proof of funds to get their contracts together – to get

their team together.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So I went back to St. Catharines ah for money. As soon as it's

not working there because I’m staying at Stevie B’s. Steve -

Stephen's house.




NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: And as soon as this - this job is not right and so after work I’d

come there and after and then - and then he says oh he’d call me

he says, oh, I don't need you for this week. That's it, I go, I go

home now. I come back to St. Catharines. So then I go to St.

Catharines and try - I go to the wife’s for a few days you know

hang out there until - until waiting that – so when I got there the

next day - Universal Staffing - when I'm working at Universal -

when I'm working ---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: She - I can - I can be there. You know I can stay there and just

mind my business and come and go. That's what happens.

NIELSEN: When you're working for Universal?

KACHKAR: When I'm working; yeah, I have a pay cheque and I - I can come

home.

NIELSEN: And – and your wife doesn't mind it?




KACHKAR: No. Because she's on a limited budget, I understand her too and

even when she is, I don't take from her budget you know and if

we eat - we eat a little sandwich or whatever. We’re not big

spenders.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So when I came, I already had that job with um Ferrero Rocher

and I was there and it was a good job it was like - it was good for

me. It was a big, big factory and I was working on a line and

everything. He said come back he says, I need you. I says well I

need like a week.

NIELSEN: Is that in Toronto Ferrero Rocher?

KACHKAR: No, they’re in Brampton.

NIELSEN: In Brampton?

KACHKAR: But that's through an agency in St. Catharines.

NIELSEN: Okay.




KACHKAR: So that's how much I work I go I get it through an agency and go

there and they would pay $15 dollars to take you out there in the

van - and they’d pick you up and then they bring you home.

NIELSEN: From where - where were you living when you were working in

Brampton?

KACHKAR: I think I was staying in my building. I have a shop in Geneva

Street in St. Catharines. I have a little shop there that I stay---

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---when it's warm. Because I was trying to winterize it---

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---because I’m waiting for my GST back and everything.

NIELSEN: Is that 70 ½ Geneva? How long have you had that for?

KACHKAR: Like 2005, I bought that.

NIELSEN: You bought that?




KACHKAR: Yeah when the wife moves there I bought that and I was living

there.

NIELSEN: How much did you pay for that?

KACHKAR: $29,000 dollars.

NIELSEN: 29,000 eh?

KACHKAR: I didn't even know that building; ah because I didn't even know

when I found it and I went. It's a small building. I needed a place

for me. So there was---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---a little shop there and the guy had a good little day room in

there. But I did some renovations; I took everything out and

then I tried to stay there. I had my couches and everything and I

changed it again.

NIELSEN: So you were living there---

KACHKAR: Yeah.




NIELSEN: ---part of the time?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I put a new door up and things. It's a dangerous area

there though. So I'm not dangerous; but it's a weird area.

NIELSEN: Weird – weird and dangerous how? What do you mean?

KACHKAR: Um like those guys at night time. Those crack heads and things

on - by the Salvation Army. It's Queen – are you familiar with

St. Catharines?

NIELSEN: I've been there a couple of times. Yeah.

KACHKAR: Yeah, there’s some weirdos (sic) out there walking around.

NIELSEN: Okay. So that - that's the kind of danger you’re talking about?

KACHKAR: Yeah, like my neighbours even the neighbours there or I bring---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I brought couches and things like to move in and I went to

Toronto and I came back and everything is gone and my




neighbour says well those guys took it. So from day one, I had

problems again. Well, probably.

NIELSEN: Richard, you - you said that ah your wife didn't mind you staying

um on Welland Avenue when you were working. Were you

working all the time or were there times were you wouldn't be

working?

KACHKAR: Um no, mostly I was working or going to training. I did ah – I

was working with Krispy Kreme Donuts driving there and do -

doing deliveries.

NIELSEN: Where is that?

KACHKAR: They’re in Mississauga on Mavis. Mavis and um a big area

there; Heartland.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: That area there.

NIELSEN: When did you do that?




KACHKAR: It was in 2007. So I was driving the trucks and I - so I would

leave here at 5 - I would leave here like 4 in the morning, catch

the first bus to - to Toronto and then get - get back on the Go

train and go back to Mississauga and then catch the bus and go

to work get my truck and go do my deliveries out in Oakville

and then out back to Brampton, back to Whitby, Ajax. Basically

finish at about 9 or 10 and then come back and go back and get

back downtown and go back home. Because I had nowhere to

stay in Toronto.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: It was just like---

NIELSEN: How long did you work for Krispy Kreme for?

KACHKAR: For over a year.

NIELSEN: For over a year?

KACHKAR: Over a year. I was just delivering to their Sobey’s stores going

there, picking them up, delivering them. They lost the contract

so I was on unemployment.




NIELSEN: You were on unemployment?

KACHKAR: After that. So unemployment; I went to the I was at this um - I

followed a program---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---and you could upgrade your skills and everything so I took

heavy equipment - heavy equipment operator and truck driver

training.

NIELSEN: Where did you take that?

KACHKAR: At um - in St. Catharines at um – a Truck - Canada Transport

Ca’- Transport Canada Training.

NIELSEN: In St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: In St. Catharines.

NIELSEN: Okay. When did you take that?




KACHKAR: It was maybe 2008. But you do … I’m I'm not sure of the dates.

All the dates - like really they’re different. I mix up days a lot.

But it was after that.

NIELSEN: It was after that?

KACHKAR: After the Krispy Kreme. I went and did a – like there’s a way

you take your … you go and you do your resume then you get

upgraded and then they take your um - they take your um - not

everybody gets it … a lot of people want to do things.

NIELSEN: How did you get it though?

KACHKAR: Just by being – ah being um qualified to – to do that; to do the

heavy equipment and the truck driving so.

NIELSEN: But had you had training or experience in that before?

KACHKAR: Ah, I operated equipment; heavy equipment like that.

NIELSEN: When you say qualified, what do you mean?

KACHKAR: Like I'm technically able to do that---




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---to drive those things and stuff like.

NIELSEN: Based on your experience and education?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I think so and - and it was something, it was definitely

something new.

NIELSEN: Alright.

KACHKAR: So to hop in a - in an excavator.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: First you know to - they teach you what this is and that it is and

then you just get in it and there's a big area and then you just

start going; and then you just start learning the scoop and you

start learning all the techniques and what it is and how to put the

foot and all the ah landing gear down and so I became like an

expert in ah heavy equipment. Bulldozer and backhoe, ah an

excavator and um grater.

NIELSEN: It’s a lot of heavy machines.




KACHKAR: I operated all those. I did all my times, the morning until night I

was there, to do three shifts.

NIELSEN: Now how long did you go to school for that for?

KACHKAR: That I went for just a few months. A few months and then after

that was finished, I went back to class for my ah AV.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So, I ah got in the - the truck. The big 18 wheeler.

NIELSEN: Right. What happened?

KACHKAR: I started to use that thing too. First to start to get it going.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: Get gears and get going and---

NIELSEN: Were you good at it? Yeah. What, did you get a certification?




KACHKAR: So then I did - and I started to hook up the trailer, back up the

trailer and I jumped in the trailer, drive around. I used to drive

around all the Niagara region you know. Keep it on the road

Ritchie, stay on the road because sometimes - it's a technique for

a 53 foot truck.

NIELSEN: I imagine it would be.

KACHKAR: Yeah. It's hard to keep – and plus in Niagara---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---the roads the way they are it's bumpy rough roads. So I - I

think I did well with that and then at that time there was ah that

strike. I went to go - to get my license. I have my licenses for

heavy equipment.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: But to do you get your license for your AV, you have to go to

um the Ministry there and you have to drive out to Brantford or

somewhere because they were closed on strike; and ah I got – I

did my ah – I got my air brake the Z and everything and I went

for a ride with a guy---




NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: --- it seemed okay. But I was nervous or whatever, I was

grinding too many gears and I was grinding some gears and then

I was at the intersection I let some lady go and I – I’m in the

intersection.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So, I said let her go and he said you’re not supposed to do that or

something - you know and then backing up - backing up and I - I

was okay but I don't know the guy - one of my trainers told me

not to look out the window or whatever and so I - I didn't pass

that test.

NIELSEN: Okay. So you didn't get your AZ?

KACHKAR: I didn't, I got my Z but not the AZ.

NIELSEN: And you didn’t get ah the A part?




KACHKAR: Yeah and so I called the school and everything and they said

well they couldn't really do much. So now here I spent all that

time and I spent $18,000 dollars grant.

NIELSEN: Where did you get the grant from?

KACHKAR: That’s from the government they give that.

NIELSEN: To take that course? Okay.

KACHKAR: $18,000 dollars.

NIELSEN: $18,000 dollars worth?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: So at the end of it all did you - did you graduate? Did you

graduate?

KACHKAR: I graduated and they said oh there’s a work placement and

everything and that started to become all kind of fake too.

There's no work placement.

NIELSEN: So you never got a job?




KACHKAR: No. I was---

NIELSEN: In that – in that line of work?

KACHKAR: There’s no bulldozer, no heavy equipment going on or whatever.

So I have all those certificates so here I am and---

NIELSEN: Have you worked with heavy equipment after getting that

certificate? Never eh? Listen I sort of would like to take you

back again to um - we've talked about a lot of stuff. But you

were talking about when the last time is that you saw your wife

is New Year’s – New Year’s you think it was?

KACHKAR: I don't think I was well. Something was wrong with me.

NIELSEN: What do you think was wrong with you?

KACHKAR: Well, I was just walking around and well I have no family and - I

just don't have and I didn’t – I felt bad.

VRUNA: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.




KACHKAR: I just felt bad like. Like I just felt bad walking around and I

didn't have family and so I was staying in - that shelter in St.

Catharines.

NIELSEN: Which shelter is that?

KACHKAR: A shelter in Southridge.

NIELSEN: Southridge?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: How long had you been saying there?

KACHKAR: Like a week or so. I was staying there and everything was fine

there, but I didn't like it either. It was weird. People at night

getting up and going in and out and---

NIELSEN: Where you staying before you went to the shelter?

KACHKAR: At home.

NIELSEN: What shelter was that?




KACHKAR: In - on Welland Avenue.

NIELSEN: On Welland?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: With ah Maro and – and the children?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Yeah. But I – know like – that I knew that morning I’m

gonna (sic) go, I have to go you know. I knew that I wanted to

go. Because I could feel - somehow they like it just to give me

the boot.

NIELSEN: What do you mean – whose they?

KACHKAR: My wife and the kids and my son. Like my son won't come out;

if I'm at home, he doesn't come out and eat.

NIELSEN: Why is that? Ah, do you have a problem with your son?

KACHKAR: No. Um I went - he was sick last year or last Christmas

whatever and he got very sick and I was there for him. I helped

him out and everything and then he just - he just has his own

private - private things. He goes out he does his things.




NIELSEN: So up to um - before you went to the shelter you were staying at

home with your wife and children?

KACHKAR: Ye’- well, yeah but it was a - it was ah like that one of those um

… I'm really not supposed to be there at that time you know

that's - sometimes they don't want me there even in the morning

to go walk the dogs or whatever.

NIELSEN: Now when you say stay there like you - you're sleeping there?

KACHKAR: I’d stay on the couch in the basement. Yeah.

NIELSEN: So you're not sleeping with---

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: ---with Maro - and how---

KACHKAR: I sleep alone.

NIELSEN: ---and how long had you been staying there?

KACHKAR: Like off and on all these times.




NIELSEN: Off and on? Now when you say often on and you go to stay

there, how long would you stay for?

KACHKAR: Three, four days.

NIELSEN: Okay and then why would you leave?

KACHKAR: Because even when I get there, it's like “you're not staying long

are you?” It's like..

NIELSEN: Who’s saying that?

KACHKAR: Like the wife and my kids – “why is he here?”

NIELSEN: So both your kids and your wife don't want you there? You

wanna (sic) be there because they're your family right?

KACHKAR: I do. Yeah.

NIELSEN: Is that the reason you go back? But you're saying - did they

actually tell you they don't want you there? How does it make

you feel? It's got to be pretty tough.




KACHKAR: Yeah. Well, I'm sure it happens to people so I just walk out.

NIELSEN: Yeah, people have their problems is that ah – and how long has

that been going on for like that?

KACHKAR: I think for a long time she's been doing that to me since I met

her.

NIELSEN: and you keep going back?

KACHKAR: It's not that I'm going back, like I’m just you know it’s like you

go to a job and you have somebody there that's always doing that

and right you go there.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: I have my job. I take care of my kids’ right?

NIELSEN: Now when you go back, are you being asked to come back or are

you going back unannounced?

KACHKAR: No, I go like - I go – I go back quietly again. Just sort of go back

again and like---




NIELSEN: Is it kind of the same thing every time? You stay for a few days

and then they ask you to leave? How do they ask you to leave?

What do they say?

KACHKAR: Just like even at night time, we’re there, we're sitting; my wife’s

there, we’re sitting, we’re having tea and my daughter would just

like tell me to F off and just like for no reason.

NIELSEN: No reason, just tells you to F off?

KACHKAR: I look at the wife and the wife is like smiling and ah – you guys

are strange and I go start putting – I go start putting on my coat

and I'm gone.

NIELSEN: Why would they say that to you? Had you - had you said

something to your daughter or your wife that - that would cause

them to say something like that? No. So they told you and they

asked you to leave?

KACHKAR: Lots of times.

NIELSEN: And where do you go when you - when you leave?




KACHKAR: I just go walk. I walk all the way. I’d walk to St. Catharines. I

walk downtown St. Catharines. I walk all those places. That's

how I meet all these people; street people.

NIELSEN: And when they - when they ask you to leave how do you feel?

KACHKAR: I don't know. I'm just like - I just feel ah I don't know. Like you

go to a job and you get fired and you – you know?

NIELSEN: It can't - it can’t make you feel very good.

KACHKAR: No, I don't feel good, but again – again like I don't really take it

to heart really. I do - I get upset and everything and I just – I just

go walk it off.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Go downtown and I talk to people or whatever. It's just---

NIELSEN: So when you leave, where - where would you stay at?

KACHKAR: I just go to my shop – my building.

NIELSEN: To your shop? On Geneva.




KACHKAR: Geneva. Yeah. I put the heat on – yeah, I put the heat on there,

stay there. The next thing you know people are coming there

bringing me stuff from the Salvation Army; food and---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: It’s the weirdest thing.

NIELSEN: Tell me about the last time that you – you saw your wife on New

Year’s?

KACHKAR: There was like – when - they didn't even want to see me. I just

turned around.

NIELSEN: Who did you speak to when you went there?

KACHKAR: I think my wife was there, my son was inside and Ashley was

inside.

NIELSEN: Okay and what was said?

KACHKAR: You can't come - you can’t come here, you can't stay here.




NIELSEN: And who told you that?

KACHKAR: I think Mar’- Maro did. Maro.

VRUNA: Pardon me? I’m sorry?

KACHKAR: Maro, the wife.

VRUNA: Maro?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIESLEN: So Maro told you – you can’t stay here. And did you say

anything to her?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: And what happened after that? What did you do?

KACHKAR: I just turned around and I started walking back to um - takes like

an hour to walk. I had my sweater and my coat. That's what I

remember it was cold out, but I had no gloves on, I had no hat,

but I wasn’t feeling cold.




NIELSEN: Alright.

KACHKAR: I just walked back and then I walked back and – and um I just

walked back and went to the bus station.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I bought a ticket. Was a ticket, the next ticket to Toronto, 7, 8

o'clock. I came back.

NIELSEN: Did you get on the bus? Were you by yourself? So what

happened after you got on the bus?

KACHKAR: I just arrived to Toronto, got off the bus, I walked downtown.

You know Toronto of course?

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: I walked down Dundas Street just I walked all the way to my ah

- I didn't even have any clothes with me.

NIELSEN: Did you have um - a suitcase or anything like that? What did

you have with you?




KACHKAR: Nothing - just my coat, my shoes.

NIELSEN: Just what you were wearing?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Did you have money on you?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: You had no money? How much did it cost you for the bus

ticket?

KACHKAR: Like $22 dollars I had. Because I saved when I was staying

originally at this house which they were giving us two dollars a

day or something. I was saving that.

NIELSEN: That’s the only money you had? Just what you got from the

shelter? Did you have any money in the bank? Do you have any

credit cards? Um are you under any financial, do you have

financial problems?

KACHKAR: Not really. No. No.




NIELSEN: No. You just don't have any money in the bank?

KACHKAR: No money, no.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I have a – I had a jeep and it was stolen. I was parking it across

the thing and one day I come and it’s gone. That’s normal all

my stuff was stolen; couches, everything I have.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: So – so – so sometimes they even give me insurance if I go out

to buy a couch and they say oh and do you need insurance I say,

no, no, I don’t need it and … we - and we’ll give it to you. So, I

would call the police. I called the police a lot over there. It's

better now, way better now.

NIELSEN: On Geneva Street?

KACHKAR: Before you couldn't leave your bike out there one second.

People would jump on it. It’s weird.




NIELSEN: Ah, just to go back to your ah – so you - you got a ticket to

Toronto. Why would you – why would you do that? Why did

you get a ticket to Toronto?

KACHKAR: Just I wanted – I said – I said you know that’s it I’m gonna (sic)

go to Toronto and start working ah in Toronto.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Because if I work in St. Catharines, I need my wife's support to

go there you know to have some lunch and have something I’m

cooking. It's not that I can't, but when I'm alone I get depressed

or whatever. I've been alone before. I used to live there on Vine

Street.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

KACHKAR: I used to live by myself.

NIELSEN: Vine Street in St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I had to do that when she moved – new - and went from –

we moved from the apartment she went to a house. I needed to

go out get my own house too so I got a - a little apartment there;




and all those guys downstairs all the crack heads or whatever

making noise and everything. But the guy told me upstairs don’t

bring problems.

NIELSEN: Did you get depressed?

KACHKAR: I get very depressed by myself and - and sitting there and---

NIELSEN: Now when you say depressed?

KACHKAR: I don't want to eat, I don't want to go anywhere. I just – and I - I

don't want to hear anything and I just don't.

NIELSEN: Have you seen a - a doctor for depression? Have – have you

ever um---

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: ---so you were getting sad -- is that what you’re saying?

KACHKAR: It’s not sad it's just like you lose all your – anything. You just

lose everything. You don’t care about things. Like if I – if I was

ah walking across the street and it’s a red light and I’m walking




and the cars are gonna (sic )come and hit me and I’m just

walking.

NIELSEN: And that’s because of how you’re feeling?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: like you don’t care?

KACHKAR: I don’t care.

NIELSEN: Is that what it is? Is that a good way of saying it?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: And so you’ve never seen a doctor about that?

KACHKAR: I went – I went like in Toronto, I went and even that day I went

to the hospital. I wanted to see somebody … she says oh you

have to wait and see. It was one of those things that was never

gonna (sic ) happen.

NIELSEN: Which day is that – that you went?




KACHKAR: I don’t recall. It was like the same day that I went to the shelter.

I went there and then I went back to the shelter. So she said oh

you wait, so you wait and I said I’m gonna (sic) fall down I’m

not feeling good. I really feel bad. I never felt that bad in my

life -- I don’t know why, but it was happening to me.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And ah when I was staying there, there was other people saying

oh my mom’s got –they’re yelling at me my mom’s got cancer

she has to wait or whatever and I remember somebody fell out of

their chair or something.

NIELSEN: And this is in the hospital?

KACHKAR: In the waiting room. Yeah.

NIELSEN: But do you remember which hospital that was?

KACHKAR: I think it was St. Beadman or something. I don’t remember; I

just came through the side.

NIELSEN: This is after you came to Toronto?




KACHKAR: Because when I went to Stevie’s house---

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: ---he’s weird. Stevie’s weird - drinks too much, talks too much.

I have no idea what he’s talking about. They have inside jokes

right?

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Their own thing - I don't get involved in that. You know at – at

night time when I’m trying to sleep, they’re still playing cards

and he drinks and so---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I even sit in the hallway and there’s so many times I’m telling

him I got to go I can’t stay here. He holds me back. He thinks he

can hold me back.

NIELSEN: He doesn’t want you to leave?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I told him, I says don’t do that one time, two times; don’t

do that.




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Never do that I’m gonna (sic ) lie down if you make noise, I’m

gonna again try it again - and that’s it. I’d push him to the side, I

move out.

NIELSEN: So tell me about – so you get on a bus to Toronto and um what

happens when you get to Toronto? You don’t have anything

you don’t have any money, you have just the clothes that you’re

wearing? What do you do?

KACHKAR: I just get to um – to ah – I go to Stevie B’s house.

NIELSEN: So you went to S’– you went to Steve B’s house. And uh was

that at night or was it day time when you got there?

KACHKAR: Night time.

NIELSEN: Night time? So you actually got to his house at night time did

you go into his house? Okay. Do you remember what time you

got there? Steve B’s house?

KACHKAR: In the evening or something.




NIELSEN: Evening?

KACHKAR: 7, 8. He was surprised to see me, but that’s how I am.

NIELSEN: Okay. But he let you come in?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: And tell me what happened. Why did (Inaudible) how long did

you stay with Steve B?

KACHKAR: To that I don’t – I remember I went to the shelter.

NIELSEN: You went – you stayed until you went to the shelter?

KACHKAR: No, I went that night. I didn’t sleep but the next day I says, I –

the next day I said I better go to the shelter. I walked all over

Toronto and then I went to the shelter.

NIELSEN: So you walked all over Toronto? And ah which shelter did you

go to?

KACHKAR: Ah one on um Dundas – on Dundas and Parliament.




VRUNA: I’m – I’m sorry Richard?

KACHKAR: I don’t know the name of it.

VRUNA: You’re covering your face so I can’t hear you.

KACHKAR: Sorry, I don’t know the name of it.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Was the name of Good Shepherd; I think.

NIELSEN: Okay. So had you ever been there before?

KACHKAR: So, I lined up and then we went and had lunch and saw a few

guys oh Richie, Richie. I know a few guys from there.

NIELSEN: Richie?

KACHKAR: They call me that.

NIELSEN: That - is that what they call you?




KACHKAR: So we had our spaghetti. It was nice because I wish I had known

earlier. I wish I had known earlier about that place.

NIELSEN: Now you said something about um you went to the hospital. Did

you go to the hospital before you went to the shelter?

KACHKAR: I thought I had to go to the hospital because I wasn’t feeling

good. Like now I’m not feeling good.

NIELSEN: Okay. How are you feeling right now?

KACHKAR: I’m feeling bad. I’m feeling the same way like that. Confused I

don’t know why? Time when I went or why and I’m just – I’m

just confused.

NIELSEN: You feel confused right now?

KACHKAR: Yeah and the – the – my - I'm not supposed to even be talking -

he says I'm not supposed to talk. I'm supposed to wait for a

lawyer.

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: But you're asking me questions just pertaining to you know these

facts so.

NIELSEN: You - you know if you want to answer you can, if you don't

that’s up to you, it’s your choice.

KACHKAR: Yeah. Up to this point, after this point I think – I think it was

right what you asked because it’s – about that guy you know.

Anyways, I’m gonna (sic ) be honest there’s no um – and there’s

no other way. But up to this point, I don’t know somebody – did

somebody put pills in my drink or what happened like that.

That’s where I’m at right now.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: And – and it’s very unusual for me and - and it seems that way.

It seems that way for me.

NIELSEN: Somebody put some pills in your drink?

KACHKAR: I wasn't sure what happened, but I wasn't normal. Because if I

was normal and you met me---

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: --- you would see I'm a different person. I’m different - I go to

work. I come to work, you see me having my break. But now I

feel different. Something happened to me. So after this - after

that---

NIELSEN: So today you feel different than when?

KACHKAR: Well, I - no I’ve been feeling bad; the same way I've been feeling

bad. I went to the doctor’s on that day.

NIELSEN: The day you went to the shelter?

KACHKAR: The day I went to the shelter---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I said where’s the clinic – where’s the clinic? I have to speak

to somebody really somebody like.

NIELSEN: Who did you ask that to?

KACHKAR: To the - there's a community centre that they aro’- around -

around Regent Park. That one on um---




NIELSEN: The Regent Park Community Centre?

KACHKAR: Yeah, the centre there.

NIELSEN: You spoke to somebody there?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I spoke to a lady and she says oh you have to go to the

doctor's office. I went around the corner went there was a girl

there, she her - she her veil on.

NIELSEN: A veil?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And - and what kind of - what do you mean by that?

KACHKAR: Just a veil like and she was in a---

VRUNA: (UI:01)? A hajib?

KACHKAR: ---yeah. But in the doctor's office. Like I need to see a doctor

please I'm not feeling good. I'm not feeling - is very important




and um I was just losing everything, I don't know what it was. I

felt something was wrong with me.

NIELSEN: So when you say you weren't feeling well was it - did you feel,

was it because you were depressed or something else?

KACHKAR: I felt so empty and dreamed and I didn't know where I was

going, what I’m doing. Like how I'm here even. That's

continuing now so after that and then all those events. I don't

don’t know and even how I get here and now I’m in prison? Do

you think I ever dream of that?

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: And---

NIELSEN: Had you seen a doctor that day?

KACHKAR: No. He came, he looked he said oh you seem okay. I said okay.

NIELSEN: So the doctor did look at you? Now this – this - is it a hospital or

is it a clinic?

KACHKAR: I think it's a clinic.




NIELSEN: Near the community centre? Now how far away from the – the

shelter is this community centre?

KACHKAR: Like the shelter is there and you know Parliament goes this way;

I think. I just came on Parliament and it’s in the back there and

on - on ah Parliament or maybe Gerrard Street.

NIELSEN: That’s where the clinic is?

KACHKAR: I - Detective I'm not kidding. I'm so disoriented, I don't

remember all those things, those things, where I went, which

corner. I couldn't recall it.

NIELSEN: Okay. That's fair enough. I mean you don't---

KACHKAR: I wouldn't---

NIELSEN: ---live in Toronto so it’s---

KACHKAR: No, but I know the places. Like usually I’m there, usually if I’m

there I get up early at 5 o'clock on days - on days that I'm

working I'm up – I’m up at 5 boom, I’m gone. I get up, I get on

the bus and go somewhere, I'm gone. I'm working.




NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: It’s not normal for me. For me to walk around and do it's not

normal.

NIELSEN: So what you're - what you're feeling now had you felt this way

before? How about in St. Catherine's? Like when you said that

you were depressed?

KACHKAR: You know I would go for a while and then I’d come back. The

only thing that bothers me is even - even in the morning see.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: We’re all at home a Sunday morning or whatever and I says all

we’re gonna (sic) do is have a cup of coffee, take our dogs for a

walk, enjoy our day.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: just start with me early in the morning – “ you’re this, you’re

nobody. I can’t walk with you. Don't even think you're coming




with me” stuff like that. You know I used to talk a lot. Now I

just keep my mouth and it's whatever.

NIELSEN: You used to?

KACHKAR: I used to like say you know talk. I said, well, who do you think

you are and blah, blah, blah.

NIELSEN: You’re talking to your wife?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So, I told you that. I haven't done that in a long time.

NIELSEN: When you have an argument with – with your wife, how do you

– how does that make you feel?

KACHKAR: I don't have arguments with her anymore.

NIELSEN: No?

KACHKAR: A long time. No, there’s no arguments.




NIELSEN: Alright. So getting back to you see – you saw a doctor he took a

quick look at you?

KACHKAR: Yeah at Regent Park he looked and I says I'm not feeling good.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: He goes well, you seem okay. But even my friends there that I

know them from before---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---they come by and um I don't know, you know there's a - it's a

different lifestyle. It was introduced to me because I - you know

at that time I didn't have anybody, so people are nice to you

know. You know maybe you know maybe that guy is a thief or

whatever, he does this he does that they're all doing that. It's all

lifestyle they have. I don't get involved in that. I don't and I

would always discourage them to do that. Why are you doing

that? Especially they come and ask for money I says no and I'm

not giving you any money. I am different there. I mean if you

know some people that know me there quite a few people know

me there. I just go and you know?




NIELSEN: And they’re friendly?

KACHKAR: They’re friendly to me. You know nice people. I don't deal with

them and I don't have any business with them; and I don't sm’-

smoke with anything and so.

NIELSEN: So after you saw this doctor what did you do? Is that when you

went to the shelter?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I was hungry.

NIELSEN: You were hungry?

KACHKAR: I was hungry.

NIELSEN: Were you hungry? Okay and so you - is that why you went to

the shelter?

KACHKAR: Well, no, I went to the shelter because yeah I thought I could go

there and get um like signed up for um you know a program or

something – a place to stay. So - because it's hard.

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: I really came to the point where I know I'm really in bad shape.

Because my wife can’t help me, I don't have any money.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So basically, I'm on the street like all these other people.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: So, I said it’s better just go through this.

NIELSEN: Is that why you went there?

KACHKAR: So, I went there and I started to feel okay. Had dinner, had

everything and they says oh you come back at night in there and

that.

NIELSEN: So you had dinner during the daytime?

KACHKAR: In the afternoon.

NIELSEN: Okay.




VRUNA: The evening is that what you said?

KACHKAR: In the evening; yeah and there would be cookies, they would put

cookies and everything. So I did that and then I don't know was

it after that of before that? I don't recall. That's when I went to

go see – see the doctor.

NIELSEN: Alright.

KACHKAR: Because the guys I know from there too they came and sat with

me too. I know if you guys - he saw me he says - he goes, Bro,

you're not looking good there’s something's wrong.

NIELSEN: Who said that?

KACHKAR: One guy I know from there from a while I don't remember his

name. But he knows me.

NIELSEN: Did – are you talking in the shelter?

KACHKAR: In the shelter. Yeah.

NIELSEN: Is it like a worker or is it just---




KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: ---he was just standing there?

KACHKAR: Just ah somebody that I know from the - from the park there,

would come and go.

NIELSEN: Okay. So you go there during the daytime---

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: ---and you had something to eat; did you then leave?

KACHKAR: I think I went to the - to the doctor's office.

NIELSEN: Okay and what did you do after the doctor's office?

KACHKAR: I walked around or whatever.

NIELSEN: Did you talk to anybody?

KACHKAR: No.




NIELSEN: Anything thing happen? Did you have any arguments with

anybody; any problems? How were you feeling after you left the

doctor's office?

KACHKAR: The same. Worse.

NIELSEN: Worse and how can you - can you describe worse?

KACHKAR: Scared, like something is going on, something's happening to

me. You know what was going on, something was gonna (sic)

happen.

NIELSEN: Something’s gonna (sic) happen?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: Was this something - was this a physical feeling or … I'm just

trying to understand how you were feeling.

KACHKAR: No, in my mind it’s like something was happening and I think I

was being surrounded by this environment. It just came - it just

come, something happened. I don't know what happened?

NIELSEN: When you say this environment can you---




KACHKAR: Everybody's out there waiting to eat, it's a normal lifestyle for

them.

NIELSEN: Okay, being on the street?

KACHKAR: Being on the street.

NIELSEN: And that – and that was making you feel?

KACHKAR: It made me – it did something to me. It made me feel just

distraught.

NIELSEN: Because you’re on the street?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: With no money?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: M-hm. Alright. Did you ever go back to the shelter?

KACHKAR: At night time.




NIELSEN: You went back at night? Okay did you talk to anybody before

you went in? Did you take any drugs before you went in? Were

you drinking? So what happens when you go in? What did they

do?

KACHKAR: I don't know we ate or whatever.

NIELSEN: Did you have to sign in or is there a form or something that you

have to fill out?

KACHKAR: See, I - you know what after that I can't recall now what

happened? I don't remember now after that what happened?

NIELSEN: Well, what do you remember about going into the shelter?

KACHKAR: I don't remember.

NIELSEN: You don't remember anything at all? Do you remember going to

sleep? Nothing at all? Do you remember speaking to anybody

inside there?

KACHKAR: Remember people were speaking, saying things, whatever.




NIELSEN: What were they saying?

KACHKAR: I don't know. They were talking non … I never heard such

nonsense. It was just nonsense or whatever and blah, blah, blah,

talking. Yeah.

NIELSEN: What does that mean blah blah blah?

KACHKAR: I don't know.

NIELSEN: What kind of nonsense?

KACHKAR: I don't know. It's unusual for me to be somewhere where people

are speaking and sleeping and talking like that.

NIELSEN: How did you feel about being in that shelter?

KACHKAR: Good.

NIELSEN: Was it a good shelter? Was it clean?

KACHKAR: Well it seemed okay.

NIELSEN: Yeah?




KACHKAR: The best shelter I've been in, besides that. Yeah.

NIELSEN: You’ve been in the one in St. Catharines right?

KACHKAR: Yeah, the one in St. Catharines.

NIELSEN: How did it compare to the one in - in St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: Massive, it was bigger.

NIELSEN: Just bigger eh?

KACHKAR: And I didn't like the one there---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---in St. Catharines. People getting up at night and kind of like

walking around. Apparently there's a lot of drugs there. People

getting kicked out for drugs.

NIELSEN: This is the one in St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: Yeah.




NIELSEN: What about this one in – in Toronto?

KACHKAR: This one, I didn't have the chance to know. I don't know.

NIELSEN: No? Did they ah - what time did they make you go to sleep? Or

is there a time?

KACHKAR: I don't remember. I don't remember.

NIELSEN: You don’t remember that at all? Okay. So do you remember ah

going to the hospital?

KACHKAR: When?

NIELSEN: When you got injured. I know the doctors and the nurses were

talking to you.

KACHKAR: I really don't recall. All I remember is just like - I don't recall

much.

NIELSEN: What do you recall?

KACHKAR: Just like looking in the ambulance. Sitting in the ambulance.




NIELSEN: Yeah?

KACHKAR: I was just taking a couple of breathes and that's it; breathe,

breathe and that was just it.

VRUNA: Sorry, Richard.

KACHKAR: I just said a couple - just take a couple of breaths and just keep

breathing, keep breathing.

NIELSEN: How did you feel?

KACHKAR: I didn't feel anything.

NIELSEN: Were you hurt?

KACHKAR: I guess so.

NIELSEN: What - what did you feel?

KACHKAR: Not much; I didn't feel much.

NIELSEN: You didn't feel much?




KACHKAR: No. Just pain and hurting.

NIELSEN: Where were you hurting?

KACHKAR: I don't know. Like all over here and I don't really recall.

NIELSEN: In your body? Your upper body. And that's when you were in

the ambulance?

KACHKAR: I don't remember how I got out. I don't remember, I don’t

remember what happened and then I just was in the ambulance.

My arm was broken or something twisted the other way.

NIELSEN: Your arm was twisted? Which arm? You're looking at your left

arm the one you've got in a sling?

KACHKAR: Yes, sir.

NIELSEN: You’ve got a bandage there.

KACHKAR: All stitched and everything.

NIELSEN: What happened to your arm?




KACHKAR: I don't know. It was all broken, twisted off and just---

NIELSEN: It was all broken? And that you remember that?

KACHKAR: I don't … I just remember my arm was hurting, I looked over and

it wasn't there, and my arm wasn't there.

NIELSEN: In the ambulance?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: And what else happened in the ambulance? Do you remember

the ah paramedics talking to you?

KACHKAR: I don't remember … they were just putting things on me and---

VRUNA: Sorry, Richard you've already---

KACHKAR: I don't remember much. I don't remember anything. Just the –

just seeing the ambulance go I thought I was dying.

NIELSEN: You thought you were dying? What kind of things were they

putting on you?





NIELSEN: But you thought you were dying? Why did you think that?

KACHKAR: The ambulance and I don't know.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I couldn't breathe. I saw some blood coming out. I was on the

snow, I think they pulled me out.

NIELSEN: You were on the snow?


NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I saw blood everywhere.

NIELSEN: So when they pulled you out, do you remember who pulled you

out?

KACHKAR: ah---




NIELSEN: What I'm gonna (sic) ask you is when – um do you remember

how you got there? You don't remember anything about how

you got there? So what's your - your earliest memory you had

before you got in an ambulance?

KACHKAR: I do not remember.

NIELSEN: You don't remember; and when you get to the shelter, do you

remember signing into the shelter at night?

KACHKAR: Yeah. It's weird because I was sleeping on the - on the plastic, I

was sleeping. I was so tired.

NIELSEN: You were sleeping on the plastic?

KACHKAR: On the steps there that go up into the shelter?

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: I was just sleeping there.





KACHKAR: At night

NIELSEN: At night?


NIELSEN: Okay. So you were sleeping on the steps? Outside or inside?

KACHKAR: Inside.

NIELSEN: Inside. How long did you sleep there for?

KACHKAR: I don't remember. I don't remember. Isn’t it better that I get a ---

I speak to my lawyer and they help me out and I go all over all

these things with them and then they speak to you? Isn't it better

to give you a - because these answers are all like s’- I don't know

like.

NIELSEN: Well we’re just --- I mean and that's up to you Richard; what

we're trying to do is understand what's happened okay?

KACHKAR: Yeah. You're asking about my family and everything.

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: The lawyers clearly told me don't have to, you shouldn’t say

anything if you don't have a lawyer. I mean maybe I shouldn't

have.

NIELSEN: That’s your choice.

KACHKAR: No but it –it – it I'm just saying, there's got to be some - there's

got to be something happened here right?

NIELSEN: Well?

KACHKAR: Something happened. I was involved.

NIELSEN: We’re - we’re trying to understand what happened.

KACHKAR: So.

NIELSEN: That’s why were talking to you?

KACHKAR: Yeah. So---

NIELSEN: Yeah.




KACHKAR: --- since I haven't – haven’t had a chance to talk to anybody and

understand or what happened and everything like that; it's

probably better I wait and call - call them – um that lawyer and

then - and that way we can talk. You know I've answered you

guys a lot of questions about my past and what I do and the

family and everything like that. Even if my lawyer asked me not

to say that or what – see, I don't know - I've never worked with a

lawyer.

VRUNA: M-hm.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So.

NIELSEN: You’ve never had a lawyer before?

KACHKAR: No. Why? Usually when I have to do something, I do it and a

lawyer just snaps or whatever? I don't know. What do you need

a lawyer for? There's a code book, everything’s booked,

everything is a lie, everything has a sub-thing, it’s all - you do it.

But I've never been involved like this. So at this point; I need to

tell you those things.




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Yes.

VRUNA: Could I just ask a couple of questions to clarify something?

Like with the stuff that you've already told us?

KACHKAR: Sure.

VRUNA: Okay. When was the last time you stayed at your Geneva

address?

KACHKAR: I don't know exactly.

VRUNA: You don't know? Was it like - how about like - let's break it

down.

KACHKAR: Just before I came here.

VRUNA: Just before? So---

KACHKAR: I'm always there - everyday I go there.

VRUNA: Everyday?




KACHKAR: That’s where I spend my days there.

VRUNA: Yeah?

KACHKAR: I get my heater going and I stay there.

VRUNA: Yeah and what kind of things do you do there?

KACHKAR: Just sit, read, write my notes.

VRUNA: What kind of notes do you write?

KACHKAR: Like business things, what I want to do. I want to open a pizza

place. Ah, I got to fix, what I got to fix; the doors, the roof---

VRUNA: M-hm and -- and where do you get the money to pay for all that

for?

KACHKAR: Well, there’s some grants available. Rehab um res’- residential

rehab programs are gonna (sic) gonna (sic) have money available

for that.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: Or I was gonna (sic) work, do some jobs again and work---

VRUNA: Okay. Um so---

KACHKAR: … pay me …

VRUNA: ---you’re saying so you remember going to see your wife right

and had you – you were - but you all of a sudden went to stay at

the shelter at which? Southridge right? Now was that because

you couldn't stay and I'm trying to - and we’re trying to figure

out why you went to stay at the shelter.

KACHKAR: Oh, that already needed to happen because me, I like to have

aroutine.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Get up early, have my breakfast, do my job, go get my work and

go---

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---because that's it and---




VRUNA: And you couldn't do that at Geneva?

KACHKAR: You can’t - I can't do that at home or anything because she's like

retired, she lives her life.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Like she’s retired, like she has her dogs and everything like that-

--

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: it's good for her.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But not good for me.

VRUNA: Okay what about at the Geneva address? Do you have like a

fridge and stove to be able to do that there or a bed?

KACHKAR: I used to. I used to.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But I cleared it out now so I can work. So I can um I wanted to

insulate it.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---and use it. I have my microwave and everything, my heat I

turned all that off because I was gonna (sic) insulate it this year

and I do it. I have a little stove and stay there.

VRUNA: Okay. Alright so I - I understand. I was trying to understand

what came - how you came about doing that.

KACHKAR: Even at home when they tell me to leave, I would go to Geneva.

I have a chair there or whatever, I have a blanket.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Then I stay there for a few hours.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Ride my bike.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Even in the winter.

VRUNA: Where is your bike now?

KACHKAR: Probably in the store.

VRUNA: At the store? Did you have your bike that day when you went to

see your wife. You said that you walked – you walked?

KACHKAR: No. No, I just walked. I didn’t ride my bike.

VRUNA: Yeah. Okay. Um you were telling us that ah the agency, this

employment agency that ah you ah um called – you call every

day right; where would you call from or they call you?

KACHKAR: No, they called - they called my wife’s house.

VRUNA: Your---

KACHKAR: they called my wife's number.




VRUNA: Okay, and how does she get a hold of you?

KACHKAR: I usually check in right? I'm usually there, come in or ph’–

phone her from – from my job search.

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: I’m either at my job search.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I’m at my shop.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Or I’m working.

VRUNA: Is there a phone at your shop?

KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: Do you have a cell phone? Or did you have a cell phone?

KACHKAR: Ah, I had one. But, I don't usually ah - it's not usually on---




VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---unless I'm starting my work every day.

VRUNA: Oh, okay. What number is that and do you - do you remember

the number for it?

KACHKAR: Um, not really. It's a little black one I had in one of my bags

where I left them; I don't know.

VRUNA: Okay and where is your bag now? What kind of phone is it?

Like is it with a dealer?

KACHKAR: No, it’s a pay and talk. I think Virgin, it's a black one, I opened

it---

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: it’s a 647. I don't hook it up much. I don’t. Because a lot of

people say get a phone, get a phone. Why do I need - I don't

really need a phone.

VRUNA: Yeah. Is that phone under your name or under your?




KACHKAR: Um, I think it's my daughter's phone because she got a new one.

VRUNA: Okay. So your daughter gave you her phone? Okay.

KACHKAR: Its’s like a pay month to month.

VRUNA: M-hm and how much do you pay for it?

KACHKAR: If I put $15 dollars, it will last me a long time.

VRUNA: M-hm. Okay. So these companies you work at and do they

usually pay you cash money or do you make---

KACHKAR: No, they pay me every week.

VRUNA: And how do they pay you?

KACHKAR: Just with a cheque.

VRUNA: And you have a bank that you deal with?

KACHKAR: Yeah. CIBC, I cash it.




VRUNA: In St.?

KACHKAR: In St. Catharines?

VRUNA: In St. Catharines. Okay. So when was the last time you got a

cheque?

KACHKAR: The last time I got paid? October.

VRUNA: October?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

VRUNA: Was the last time that you had got money?

KACHKAR: October or September.

VRUNA: Were you were you actually got a pay cheque and?

KACHKAR: Yeah so I was working at Ferrero Rocher factory; I remember

that. Because I was called back to this construction company

and he said come back. If you don't come back tomorrow, don't

come back. So I really wanted to come back but I had a job

there, so---




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I was staying there.

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: But then that job too. They put me on a shift and they’re telling

me this and that, I said no, please. No, thank you and I just …

and that’s it, and then the next day they said we don't need you

back.

VRUNA: Okay and ah so what did you - who - where did you get money

in –from October ‘til now? How were you surviving? Like it's

difficult right and winter is coming and---

KACHKAR: I know, I - I don't like I do work here and I don’t know, I just

have some money.

VRUNA: Like are you getting social services giving you money? Do you

qualify for like a family allowance pay or?

KACHKAR: I don't know. I already tried.




VRUNA: Well, make sure you call.

KACHKAR: I do qualify. Because I went to the shelter they would (sic) sign

me up on that.

VRUNA: M-hm. But you never actually physically got a monthly cheque

from them?

KACHKAR: No. No and I didn't need much money because like I said you

know if I had stayed with the wife, I would have a little breakfast

and then I'm gone all day.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And then I - I have the real food I buy from ah Giant Tiger or

whatever? Sardines or whatever and eat them.

VRUNA: But you need money from somewhere. So is it money that you

ah saved or you had in the bank or?

KACHKAR: I didn't have money.

VRUNA: Do you have any? You said you have a CIBC account, do you

have any money in that account? Nothing eh? What about um




your identification now like your - do you ever carry a wallet or

a---

KACHKAR: I usually just carry my license, my health care and my bank card

and whatever and SIN number.

VRUNA: And where - where is that identification?

KACHKAR: Probably in the hospital or whatever cuz (sic) they were in my

pants right?

VRUNA: M-hm.

NIELSEN: I don’t know.

KACHKAR: I don't know either.

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: That’s why I'm saying?

VRUNA: Okay. Okay. Alright. Um, have you stayed at the Good

Shepherd house before?




KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: Had you stayed in any shelter in Toronto before?

KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: No? Okay. What about um - what about … do you know how

long you stayed with Steve when you came?

KACHKAR: Ah, Stevie B; sometimes I stay with him for weeks.

VRUNA: Okay. But, I mean this time.

KACHKAR: This time, I don't remember; a few days or something.

VRUNA: A few days? Yeah and do you remember wha’- what those few

days were about or anything between you and him? I know you

said he drinks a lot and plays some cards.

KACHKAR: Normal - normal stuff, normal stuff. He’s always talking about

his girls and stuff like that stupid stuff.

VRUNA: M-hm. Do you have a girlfriend? No? No? Other than your

wife? I mean you pay - you –you sound it and---




KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: ---you have a treacherous relationship with ah your wife right?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I have a lot - all the girls that come by, they like to see me

and we talk and nice. I respect them. They’re all like my sisters.

VRUNA: Okay, which girls are these?

KACHKAR: Like friends like Stevie B has – all of - every day has new girls

coming over with friends and---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---a lot of girls he has---

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: ---coming over.

VRUNA: Okay.




KACHKAR: So they come, say hi, hi Richie, how are things talk to me; The

only thing I talked to them about, I want to fix my place in St.

Catharines and come help me.

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: Basically that's why I'm there. There’s got to be … if they're not

in a good situation they got to find somebody to come help me.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So that's the reason I was there too because I don't find myself

any better than anybody else and I don't have any family.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: You know they have a family and things like that.

VRUNA: And they sort of took you in right?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: Yeah.




KACHKAR: They've always been nice to me. Even I remember sometimes I

didn't have money they ordered chicken they eat, we eat or I

would cook at his house. That's all.

VRUNA: Yeah. Did you ever – did he ever ask you for money to pay

him?

KACHKAR: Steve B.?

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: Not really.

VRUNA: Yeah. You said he drinks a lot, so if he was there drinking,

would you partake in drinking? You don't drink anything at all?

No? What do you normally drink?

KACHKAR: I usually drink - well, nothing, just a juice or whatever.

VRUNA: Like for breakfast when you get up in the morning what was

your – what’s your ideal break’- breakfast?

KACHKAR: I just make tea or have some toast or something. He doesn't have

much food. Make some eggs or whatever.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Or go to McDonald's---

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: ---for coffee.

VRUNA: And how do you pay for McDonald's?

KACHKAR: Well, in fact usually I have some money on me.

VRUNA: Yeah?

KACHKAR: This last time I don't know what happened. This last time was

something in my … it must be something in my – something.

VRUNA: M-hm. What about drugs that Stevie B used? Does he do any

drugs like? Not prescription drugs, like crack and?


VRUNA: You don't know?




KACHKAR: No. No. No. No.

VRUNA: What about weed?


VRUNA: Have you ever participated in any of that? No? Have you ever

tried to purchase drugs on the - on the – on the street or?

KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: What about um you know in times where you needed to get

money and you were really sort of destitute, did you try to - did

you ever steal, rob or? For money? You're shaking your head;

but?

KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: No? No. Okay. I just have a couple more.

KACHKAR: Because I don't need to - I don't need to rob. I have some

clothes. I have my - you know some food.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I never had to.

VRUNA: Yeah. So if you wanted to get your things right now, where

would they be?


VRUNA: You don't know?

KACHKAR: No.

VRUNA: No? Okay. Does anybody else have other than yourself, who

has access to your Geneva address?

KACHKAR: Just my wife.

VRUNA: Yeah. Okay. How does she have access?

KACHKAR: She just has a key, she goes checks on it and stuff like that.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: She checks the mail or whatever.

VRUNA: M-hm. Okay. Um, I just want to understand, I'm trying to

understand and - I think you might have explained it but the

reason why you weren't supposed to be at your wife's house.

KACHKAR: M-hm.

VRUNA: You keep saying that I'm not supposed to be there, I’m not

supposed to be there. Um is there - like what's---

KACHKAR: When we moved to St. Catharines and I had the apartment

everything was fine.

VRUNA: Yeah.

KACHKAR: She does her thing again. She goes out at night. I don't know

where she goes. Like the same thing that you know like I had. I

did.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: She goes out, I don't know where. She walks around and then

and then she checked herself into the hospital.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: She checked herself in the hospital. Then she had to stay there.

She was there about a month.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And since she was there for a month then the Child Protection -

Child Protection Services called me, and I says well, I'm not

working right now and things like that and come you know.

Basically, this has happened before. She leaves me with the

kids, she goes, I take care of it. But this time, I said she was

there I says I can't.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So they said okay wait, wait, wait. So they came and they

interviewed me and so on and they found out that things were

not so bad. I could take care of the kids.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: While she was in the hospital, we do with the kids now the kids

will have to make dinner together. We make food together. She

used to get mad when I’d have the kids, I would wash my car

have the kids clean the rims.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: She’d have a problem with that. Clean the rims of the car. So

I'm - I'm getting them to clean the rims, to feel good about

themselves, clean the rims to go for a ride.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So, I don't know, understanding difference like that. But as far

as the - your question again was – was for what?

VRUNA: Why you weren't supposed to be there? You keep saying, I - I

wasn't allowed to be there.

KACHKAR: Because she - she got that place in emergency situation because

ah there were problems at home; violence at home or problems

in the house.

VRUNA: M-hm. Between you and her or?




KACHKAR: Well, you know, I never had a chance to say anything so all I

know is that she went and said something. I don't … without -

you know we could of gone to a counsellor or whatever we were

having issues. But she sort of went and did her thing told them

her thing. And they interviewed me and basically they said this

girl needs her own place---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---and I shouldn't be there.

VRUNA: Okay and you too’---

KACHKAR: And I shouldn't have gone back there.

VRUNA: So basically it was the ci’- the city or the government gave her

that housing on the condition that she was gonna (sic) be a single

mom living there?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: Is that?




KACHKAR: Yeah. Because they thought---

VRUNA: Yeah. You---

KACHKAR: … that her …

VRUNA: (UI:01) the gist of it?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: Because her condition gets bad when we argue. If somebody's

not in a good shape and they argue, it makes it worse right?

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Especially, somebody like me.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So that was the thing.




VRUNA: Okay you just - you just said something that just - you said that

she had the same thing that you have where she left at night.

What - what does that mean?

KACHKAR: Like just the way when the would just walk around all day like

when you have nowhere to go.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But she had a home.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: she - nobody would tell her anything.

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: She was on her own.

VRUNA: Well why is that the same with you are – I’m not…

KACHKAR: What when – no – when - but she comes home.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: I don't tell her to leave. Maybe I had dinner ready, usually I do.

Dinner is ready---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: --- kids are clean everything. But she still prefers to go out like

after work and when she was in Toronto ah we were in North

York, she would be there by Finch and the Tim Horton's or

wherever she was working there.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: She would work like 15 hours a day or whatever and then she’d

come home and then she’d go back, go shopping again. Like

just stuff like that, all night.

VRUNA: M-hm. But how is that the same as you?

KACHKAR: So now when she used to – so she used to just leave - so now

when - that's her house, it's my house she tells me that every day

this is my place. So you have to go, you have to go---

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: ---and I get up and I go.

VRUNA: M-hm.. Okay. So let me understand. When you go to a shelter

you're only allowed to stay there between a certain hour – and

for a certain hour right? Is that correct?

KACHKAR: No. No.

VRUNA: Like what were the rules for the Southridge?

KACHKAR: The shelter? (U:01).

VRUNA: What were the rules for Southridge? What time did you have to

present yourself?

KACHKAR: Just in the morning you get up and you have a shower and you

have breakfast and - and you sleep and you go into the room and

you can either go to prayers or whatever.

VRUNA: M-hm. So if you wanted to stay at the shelter during the daytime

you could?

KACHKAR: Yeah.




VRUNA: Oh.

KACHKAR: I did. That’s what I was doing.

VRUNA: Okay. In St. Catharines?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

VRUNA: And then - but if you wanted to leave for the day what time

would you have to be back by?

KACHKAR: Oh, by 10.

VRUNA: At night? Okay. So - so did you – in those - in that period did

you ever leave there and---

KACHKAR: Yeah. A couple times.

VRUNA: And where would you end up going?

KACHKAR: I - I'd go to the ci’- I would go to the job-search bank on Church

Street.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I do job search and things like that. And then um was it one

night? One night … I really liked it there.

VRUNA: At Southridge?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: Yeah? Well, that's good. That's good.

KACHKAR: I did.

VRUNA: Yeah?

KACHKAR: I liked it. I told the lady too; I liked it.

VRUNA: And what - did what you like about it?

KACHKAR: And that was like---

VRUNA: And what did you like about it? What did you like about it?




KACHKAR: Just the consistency and you could eat and you could you know -

and you could---

VRUNA: They took care of you right?

KACHKAR: Well it's not that it's that is, it’s not that. It's not even the money

it's that they have a program and then you could eat and its done

and you're done now you can go do your job or do whatever; and

I needed to speak to somebody there about my issues.

VRUNA: Okay.

KACHKAR: So and---

VRUNA: And what were they?

KACHKAR: I think I spoke to somebody lightly, but then I the lady came

from um – from welfare---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---to get me set up. So I think she got me set up there.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: Well, she must of. I started setting up like that.

VRUNA: Okay and so what issues did you need to speak to somebody

about?

KACHKAR: Like why I’m – ah you know even though they were kicking me

out of the house, I feel like I still want to go and be there or I'll

let, you know, be there---

VRUNA: Right.

KACHKAR: --- I don't want to leave ---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---it’s not that I don't want to leave like I usually … I like to

finish my thing you know so.

VRUNA: Finish your thing?

KACHKAR: Well the kids aren't ready yet. They're still young, my kids are

still young and like at least I'd be in the picture somewhere they

can call me.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I don't need to be there all the time; but just in case they need

me.

VRUNA: M-hm. Yeah.

KACHKAR: Oh, dad here’s this. Oh, I went - she wants to go camping, she

wants to sleep over at a boy’s house.

VRUNA: You wanted to be part of their lives?

KACHKAR: Yeah. I said I don't think so. You know - so that was it.

VRUNA: M-hm. Okay what about – so you were saying religion; are you

a religious person?

KACHKAR: Not really, no.

VRUNA: No? Do you go to church? Were you raised in a certain kind of

religion? Do you ever practice religion while you were married

with your wife?




KACHKAR: No. Like I go Catholic school whatever, but I just --- that – I

don’t know ---

VRUNA: Catholic?

KACHKAR: --- hope been there and maybe get some shut eye or whatever. I

don't know what um---

VRUNA: Did you go to church while you were in the shelter?

KACHKAR: I went a few times.

VRUNA: Now do they pray at the shelter?

KACHKAR: If you want to.

VRUNA: Yeah and did you?

KACHKAR: A few times.

VRUNA: Yeah? Yeah? Okay. How do you feel about religion?

KACHKAR: Um, like I feel it's your conscience … how you feel.




VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: You know like I feel it's like how you feel like um – um it's how

you are like sh’- it's your conscience. Like – like um - and you

know even like abortion I feel is wrong.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: You know, I don't like them.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I don't feel they're right. You know that … I don't think those

things are right. So---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---I went through one of those and I never - I can’t I still don't

forgive myself you know?

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: My wife was young, we were just new in Vancouver and I never

accepted that yet you know. Took a life and---




VRUNA: Your wife did that? I'm sorry?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

VRUNA: That after your two children were born? Okay.

KACHKAR: So you know I never really get closure on that.

VRUNA: No? Did you ever try talking to your wife about that; and what

did she tell you?

KACHKAR: She wasn't well and they had to do it. She wasn't well.

VRUNA: After she did that?

KACHKAR: No, even before she wasn't well.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: We had two kids and a little apartment and everything and

finances and stuff like that.

VRUNA: So is that the reason why that happened?




KACHKAR: No there - there came a point, because I was married in Armenia,

there –there came a point even when my – and with my first son.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: We went to the hospital - we were students and went to the

hospital and even the doctor came out say oh you should get

abortion. So, I don't think so like it wasn't even a question. So I

had my son and I grew up my son. I wasn't - you know I grew up

my son there and then - and I had to move around. I had to find

a new house and like I’d find a house next to the – we’d live at

student hostels right?

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But I'd find a house with water and gas and I’d say take it. The

wife would always say oh you just want to take me away from

my friends and stuff like that so.

VRUNA: M-hm.




KACHKAR: So it’s always something like that. I took her to Edmonton she

say oh I didn’t like Edmonton and it’s all something. It was

always something.

VRUNA: M-hm. So there was always a problem?

KACHKAR: Always a problem. Always I never did it right. I always did---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---things like that.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I'm not sure what that has to do with this but.

VRUNA: No, we’re just – we’re just ah you know … we don’t know, we’d

like to know who Richard is right, and you’ve been very helpful.

KACHKAR: Well, yeah---

VRUNA: Right?




KACHKAR: ---and I - and I hope that it ah you know this - this follow-up I’m

just telling you from my point of view how it is.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But I'm just - tomorrow you could see me and it won't affect me

you know? I go do my work and it doesn't affect me. It used to

affect me to go to work.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But I became immuned to it or.

NIELSEN: It used to affect; what do you mean?

KACHKAR: I’d go to work; in the morning I would argue with the wife and I

would go to work.

NIELSEN: But it bothered you when you went to work?

KACHKAR: Well yeah. Because I had the tool, I had the machine I started

thinking about what I'm doing or. Honey, what are you doing,

what are you making today? Or something it’s always that. So

my work was always affected; and they liked me at work. In




Vancouver I worked with ah some big companies, nice

companies. High tech companies. (UI:01) technologies with

smart car company and everything, but there’s always some kind

of little problem you come you know - would come with your

little baggage of problems.

VRUNA: M-hm. So has - obviously, you were in the hospital right? You

know that right? You were.

KACHKAR: I don’t recall.

VRUNA: At all when you were in the hospital?

KACHKAR: No. No, nothing. I black out.

VRUNA: So are you not wondering how you’re - you came about here?

Have you not questioned it or?

KACHKAR: I remember - I remember getting up or just opening my eyes and

there’s like security there and then the guys come out or other

guys come out say oh we discharge you and bang they just took

me away. Until this day.




VRUNA: Are you not wondering what - what the circumstances are or

what it's about or why you’re here?

KACHKAR: I have. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

VRUNA: Yeah? Have you asked anybody about it? You haven’t? So

aren’t you anxious to know why you're here? Like other than

we've told you you've been charged right and you've had a

couple of court appearances. Have you not inquired about what

the circumstances that or particulars did you tell anyone?

KACHKAR: Not really because there's nobody I mean so the security,

Warden and everybody’s giving their little opinions …

something - something's going on that they know and I don't

know. That's what's happening. And I've never been in trouble

before and I’ve never been in jail before. I've never had this suit

on before, I've never been shot at before---

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---or anything like that. Something happened to me tragic, I

don't know why and now I'm sitting in there so.

VRUNA: And how does that make you feel?




KACHKAR: You know it makes me feel like day-to-day, if something's

happened; I'm hoping that I can call my lawyer, I was supposed

to call at 1, but I’ll call them back. I hope I have somebody who

can clear me up and explain to me and sit - I'm not well now

either. Like I might not even – you know, it's hard for me to

recall this. Probably, I’m gonna (sic) go like that - like that, like

back like a zombie again.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So I go lie down in my cell. I really appreciate speaking to you.

Um um - couldn't imagine - like now somebody has no daddy,

has no wife and trag’- what a tragedy and what a person like ah –

ah I don't know what to say. What is – what a thing to say.

What a thing to happen. I don't know these people. I don't know

why I did it. I don't know people are telling me everything. It's

like – it’s like a bad dream.

NIELSEN: Now have you ever in your life have you ever had like a time

period like you're – you’re describing where you don't

remember? Has this ever happened before?




KACHKAR: Yeah, like things when my dad passed away and stuff like that.

He passed away he called me down and I had to go down. I – I

went with my friend Peter from here, from Toronto. He was

working at Krispy Kreme. Ah, I can't move, I can’t - I'm so

weak when I went to Toronto I had to pack his furniture. I - how

could I go into my dad’s little apartment. He had a house and he

had an apartment. They tell me, oh you have to pack his

apartment. Why do I want to pack his apartment if he has nice

things there and everything I want to just leave. I don't feel

people like are gone like that, gone and gone. He might not be

there but he had instructions for me. He wanted me to take the

car for his son and everything and this and that. Then the girls

would come … yeah it's the same situation I feel.

NIELSEN: But what - what my question was clearly you remember, but

what I'm asking you was there ever a time period … we've asked

you about what you said you can't seem to remember is when

you went to the shelter in Toronto and when you were put in the

ambulance.

KACHKAR: I don't. I don't.

NIELSEN: Is that - have you ever experienced that before in your life?





NIELSEN: And you're telling us today you didn't take any drugs? You

weren't drinking?

KACHKAR: I remember coming and looking over the bridge there and going

like to Regent Park.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Looking over the bridge, I was gonna (sic) go – I had my head

over, I was just ---

NIELSEN: What were you thinking?

KACHKAR: I’m gonna (sic) jump. I was gonna (sic) jump.

NIELSEN: You were gonna (sic) jump?

KACHKAR: Easy.





KACHKAR: That was the day the same day; the morning of all that or the eve

- one evening.

NIELSEN: The evening?

KACHKAR: Yeah. One evening I don't remember. I was going to Stevie's

house.

NIELSEN: Now is this when you were going to Stevie B’s house or - or

after you left the shelter?

KACHKAR: No, before the shelter.

NIELSEN: Before the shelter?

KACHKAR: Before the shelter and then that - then that was the evening, so

that why the next morning and I think I went to B’s house stayed

outside his house because he was inside drinking.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: So, I slept in the hallway. And that next morning I started to

walk over, went to the hospital. I started saying I'm not feeling

well; they have no room, I had to wait in line and then I went




there, I walked away, walked all – where did I walk? I walked

down - I don't remember and I walked far.

NIELSEN: So you were looking over a bridge?

KACHKAR: Yeah on the way home.

NIELSEN: And you’re - you said you were thinking of jumping?

KACHKAR: Yeah. It's clear you know … something like that---

NIELSEN: And when you were doing this---

KACHKAR: ---It never happened to me before.

NIELSEN: That never happened to you before?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: Would you say that's the worst you ever felt in your life is that

fair?

KACHKAR: I don't even know why.




NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I don't even know why. I had hope you know. Okay and so

what, my wife doesn’t like want me there and the kids. I thought

I was over that you know --I really.

NIELSEN: So it sounds to me um like - what seems to be the ---

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: ---thing that you bring up more than anything in the time we've

been talking quite a bit … your relationship with your wife

seems to be something that upsets you.

KACHKAR: Not really, the relation with her; it's really not that important

because you know what she's an adult, I'm an adult, I move on

you know and---

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: ---and in anything, I can move on, I move on. But it's a matter of

me being there in case something happens to her. Who's gonna

(sic) help her kids? Who's gonna (sic) - whose gonna (sic) sup’-

you know these kids they go one day on the street and they end




up - one day you go a kid on the street they end up giving you

dope and whatever and whatever or.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Right? Guys out there, what do they know what they’re doing?

At first it could be crack and then tell you to do this and do that.

So for me, I'm too worried about that because she's a - she's a

vulnerable kid. She only has me and her dad; she doesn't have

any grandparents or any cousins or anything like that.

NIELSEN: Your daughter?

KACHKAR: Yeah and she doesn't get along with the wife either. Always

arguing, always arguing, swearing again at her too.

NIELSEN: Okay. Did you have any recent ah arguments with your

daughter?

KACHKAR: I don't know. Not really recent. She wanted to go get an iPod

and I says why don't you - she wanted to get an I’- one of those

iPods and I said well why don't you look at another one or

whatever. She got mad, threw all my clothes down on the floor

and whatever. So my wife just goes out and buys it for her. You




know if I kept my mouth shut, let them do it, I think they would

go on, they’re okay maybe, they are okay. I don't know. They

don't need me. They hated me.

NIELSEN: So you know the same thing that I asked you from ah - from my

perspective um seems to me what seems to make you upset is

your relationship or issues with your - your wife and your

children.

KACHKAR: Well it doesn’t really make me upset.

NIELSEN: Yeah.

VRUNA: Well, how - how about it affects you right? and that has from---

KACHKAR: It doesn't really affect me because in the end I can't help it

anyways. In the end; I can't help my daughter has some eating

disorder, what can I do she has to go to the doctor and follow the

doctor’s orders. I don't get involved, I never get involved when I

can. They come to me ask something about tubing or –

something about a car or something, I can help them. But I

never get involved with people and their gossip and blah, blah,

blah or pills or wh--. I don't know, I'm not a professional. So at

that point, that's why I said at this point it's better I leave,




because they're fine. They know they have their doctors, they

have their school, they have themselves, they can deal with

themselves. They don't need me anymore. I'm not even upset,

wasn't even affecting. It wasn't affecting me. I wasn't always

distraught leaving my wife and things like that. It wasn't that it's

better. It was a good - it was a good time because they knew and

I knew and it was a good time for me to move on. I wasn't even

gonna (sic) contact her. I don't even contact her. The, the

lieutenant let me call her a while ago, just a few days, otherwise,

I wouldn't even of called.

VRUNA: Where were you going to move on to?

KACHKAR: Just get my job and get my apartment and start my work. That's

all I wanted to do. But there's a lot of jobs now here with my

heavy equipment and everything. I know I can do it. But not

like going back like this and back-and-forth. I needed to stay

now. That was my point and I was ready. And now that - that

thing happened, whatever at night I don't remember. I don't

know what happened. That's what I need to - I need to put back

together; I don't know.

NIELSEN: You don't remember what happened?




KACHKAR: No. Obviously, it wasn't part of my … obviously, I wasn’t plan

it or anything like that. It was just so weird.

NIELSEN: What was weird?

KACHKAR: Just everything, even going to a shelter. I didn't have to go to a

shelter. I could of called friends, I have other friends here I

could of said you know, I need a week to stay with you and they

would of. I don't know why I ended up like that.

NIELSEN: This thing when you - when you went to the bridge. How long

did you stay at the bridge for?

KACHKAR: I was standing up and seeing the water, water and I said, I said -

then I said that's gonna (sic) be weird because - it's gonna (sic)

be weird. People are gonna (sic) be concerned about me and you

know because I know they care about me. I know my family

cares about me.

NIELSEN: Right.

KACHKAR: So, I just did it on the spot. I never had those feelings before. I

don't know.




NIELSEN: How long did you stay on the bridge?

KACHKAR: Five minutes or a few minutes, I stayed there.

NIELSEN: And where is this bridge again?

KACHKAR: Just the one on um ah - I think Gerrard Street, just Gerrard Street

by - by River.

NIELSEN: So it's over the water?

KACHKAR: Over the water.

NIELSEN: Now you say that you never felt like harming yourself before?

That's the first time in your life?

KACHKAR: Um like that? Yeah.

NIELSEN: What do you mean like that? Have you felt like harming

yourself in another way before?

KACHKAR: Not harming, but just like getting out of the picture.

NIELSEN: What do you mean by that?




KACHKAR: Like feeling that I'm always causing problems for people and so

I don't want to be a problem for people. So I just wanted to, you

know, what do you do? You're always there. Like say I'm here

now and we - and we’re eating but we’re here and then

somebody comes and says oh, what are you doing here? That's

enough to just ruin my evening. Really. Maybe it's a joke or

not a joke, but it doesn't happen to me outside, usually people

don't … have the opposite. Usually people are happy and I'm

happy to see people. I’m even happy to see you here

NIELSEN: How do you feel - are you saying that you felt like a – a burden

to people is that fair?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Like they’re up high and they started cutting, they start

cutting the tree and leave me out of it.

NIELSEN: How does that make you feel?

KACHKAR: It makes me feel I want to get out of this situation. It makes me

feel I'm out of here like.

NIELSEN: And when you mean - when you say out of here; and what do

you mean?




KACHKAR: Like just don't exist.

NIELSEN: Do you want to die?

KACHKAR: I don't know. Like I wish I would just go like, just go away

somewhere. Just, where, I just would be somewhere else. No, I

don't feel like I want to die, but I just don't feel like there. Like

if I could be lifted up and go somewhere else like not –I don't

feel - I don't like those countries. I don't like those are - those

Middle Eastern countries. Those Armenia those place - I don't

like those places. They have no rules, everybody does what they

want to do. They - I don't like those. I just need - want a place.

I don't know.

NIELSEN: Richard, what do you think of suicide? What's your personal

opinion on suicide?

KACHKAR: I don't think it's right at all.

NIELSEN: No?

KACHKAR: No.




NIELSEN: Now is that because of - why is that? Is it because of religion?

KACHKAR: No, because I just didn’t feel it is right, just take your life like

that. I think it's sick, it causes sickness around you. And you

hurt people around you. It's just not something - I mean---

NIELSEN: I'm gonna (sic) ask you a question Richard; I know you’ve said

you don't remember. It sounds like you're feeling -- not feeling

very good about yourself. Is that fair? When you came to

Toronto?

KACHKAR: Even before.

NIELSEN: Even before? How long have you been feeling not good about

yourself?

KACHKAR: It’s been a long time. Like even in the summer when her

relatives came from - from Iran and---

NIELSEN: Last summer?

KACHKAR: You know they ate and then they told me to leave. I says can I -

just a piece of watermelon they said no. Like they cut

watermelon and ate…




NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And then they say you have to go after they cut the watermelon.

NIELSEN: So that - you've been feeling bad about yourself a long time.

And you've described a number of reasons for it. You've told me

how you feel about suicide. You've also said that you’d like to,

because of how people leave you out or make you feel that you

are a burden, you'd like to ah go away or not exist?

KACHKAR: Yeah just be away.

NIELSEN: Is that fair?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Like if I go to Stevie B’s, I don't tell people I'm there. I

don't have a phone. I don't want people to call me. I don't want

to call anybody. I just want to be alone.

NIELSEN: Have you ever thought of any other ways where you wouldn't or

you couldn't exist? Now you told me you were thinking of

jumping off a bridge. Have you ever thought of any other way?

KACHKAR: Yeah, like moving.




NIELSEN: Moving away?

KACHKAR: Just moving away.

NIELSEN: But that's a big difference to me - moving away and jumping off

a bridge . Jumping off a bridge is taking your own life.

KACHKAR: Yeah. Doing that, you know, I'm just telling you because it’s the

truth what happened.

NIELSEN: I appreciate that.

KACHKAR: Yeah, I wouldn't just sit make that up. Like I never looked off -

like I go over - over bridges I'm even scared of them.

NIELSEN: And that's why I would bring it up because you said that.

KACHKAR: Yeah, I go over bridges I'm scared of them. I go, you know,

life’s important. I have my daughter, she's asking for me.

People have – the other man has his daughter.

NIELSEN: On this occasion you said you were thinking of jumping?




KACHKAR: No, it wasn't I was thinking. It was like---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---it just became something possible. It became a possibility.

NIELSEN: A possibility?

KACHKAR: Yeah. Like---

NIELSEN: But it didn't last though?

KACHKAR: No, I said that’s - I better get out of here and go like shake my

head, walk back.

NIELSEN: Have you ever thought of suicide?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: No?

KACHKAR: I know I'm - I know I could I'm helpful to people. I go to – when

I go myself to people like even to Regent Park. I've never been

there right? I don't know, my friend took me there. But I met




nice people there. There's people who, nice people there.

Working people, after work, you know they come, they have a

beer or whatever. That's good for me. I used to finish work,

have a beer and sit outside, talk about things. So anywhere I go,

new, I work and people like me I'm okay. So, I needed a - just a

start somewhere. I needed a start – just start to do something

and be useful with what I have.

NIELSEN: Richard, what do you think about police officers? What's your

experience with police officers?

KACHKAR: I have all respect for them, love them. Take care of people, have

hard jobs. Protect people, they're always there for you.

NIELSEN: You’ve ever had a problem with police officers?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: Police officers came to your house a couple of times. How was

your dealings with them? How did you find him just?

KACHKAR: I appreciated what they did. They came, just told me to cool

down and---




NIELSEN: Yeah they treated your wife okay? And they treated you okay?

And your children? You said something ah earlier when De’-

Detective VRUNA was talking to. You said something about

being shot. What do you remember about being shot?

KACHKAR: I don't recall.

NIELSEN: Why did you make that statement? Is that because of your

wounds or you actually know?

KACHKAR: No, because they told me.

NIELSEN: You were told eh?

KACHKAR: I wouldn't have known. They told me. They said here, here,

here, here. Here. I still don't believe it.

NIELSEN: You’ve never asked anybody about what the allegations are?

You were in court. Did ah you not talk to Duty Counsel about

the allegations against you are? What we’re alleging that you

did. Did that - that lawyer didn't explain that to you?

KACHKAR: I didn't have a lawyer.




NIELSEN: There was Duty Counsel – in -in court---

KACHKAR: She was---

NIELSEN: ---when you appeared in court and they had a synopsis of

charges about the allegations there. Did not anybody go over

that with you?

KACHKAR: Yeah, they said I'm – I’m being charged with Murder. Just like

they said in the court here.

NIELSEN: Did they say what - what it involved? What were the

circumstances that they told you?

KACHKAR: Yeah it's Murder in one because it’s a police officer.

NIELSEN: M-hm. So they told you that.

KACHKAR: They told me that.

VRUNA: So what about the circumstances that were surrounding---

KACHKAR: I don't remember anything.




VRUNA: ---to that charge? You don't know what led up to that?

KACHKAR: No, because I didn't have a lawyer - I didn't have a lawyer to

speak to and I didn't ask.

VRUNA: So do you have any questions for us about that?

KACHKAR: I - I should have a lawyer with me. I should have a lawyer with

me that---

NIELSEN: It’s you asking questions of us; do you have any questions of us

about it?

KACHKAR: No, because I because I know I did something wrong. I know I

did something wrong, I did something stupid. I'm having a hard

time recalling it. I’m mixed up. I've never had a pol’- I've

always had highest regards for police and all my - and all things.

I always even wanted to be police. But why – you know why

would I do that? And even if it was let's say, you know, it could

of been anybody. It could. It could of been much worse too. It

could of been a group of kids and a bus stop … they shoot. This

could have been disastrous. But it wasn't. It didn't have




anything to do with police. That's when the wife calls the lawyer

on the newspaper cop killer everything. I said wow. Wow.

NIELSEN: I'm trying to get ah when you - maybe I'm misunderstanding;

you said it could of been worse?

KACHKAR: Yeah. It could have been. Well, I mean it could.

NIELSEN: A - a young man lost his life.

KACHKAR: Yeah. What happens if I - what happens if I had hit a whole

bunch of people?

NIELSEN: If it was somebody other than a police officer that would make it

worse in your mind?

KACHKAR: No, I'm saying police officers is - is tragic.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: But any life is tragic as well.

NIELSEN: Okay.




KACHKAR: Police officer is tragic but that’s his job; same thing with these

Wardens here. They're taking care of people. They – taking care

of people with disease, with AIDS - you get AIDS through

blood right, through a fight.

NIELSEN: And that's just part of the - that's the nature of the job – the job?

KACHKAR: Well, the nature of the job but plus the person goes out

(Inaudible) I’m seeing that. It's tragic what happened. I can't

believe what happened.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: I don’t know how it happened.

NIELSEN: Did what happened - all this happened. Did it happen because

you were upset with yourself and your life? Is that what the -

what the problem is?

KACHKAR: I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know.

NIELSEN: You don't think so?

KACHKAR: No, because I have a good life ahead of me.




NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: My kids are older now and everything. I don't have a bad life. I

have a good life. I have all my skills, everything ready to go.

Just – this is just a training part, it's just a matter of - of making

sure they're okay, that's all.

NIELSEN: Like going back to what you've told us. You went to see your

wife and your kids and they didn't let, they didn't want you in the

house. When you left you had 20 - $22 dollars to your name.

You had no other money. You had only the clothes on your

back. You came to Toronto. It sounds to me like you weren't

very happy.

.

KACHKAR: No officer; I’m happy because I know here Stevie B’s got some

clothes for me. They'll help me out and one day I get a job when

I want to. The reason before I couldn't is just because I was also

going back and forth, back and forth. But now when I came this

time---

NIELSEN: M-hm.




KACHKAR: ---it was here to stay so they were gonna (sic) I could get help, I

could go to the next morning. I could go down to the job place

and get a job. I was ready this time.

NIELSEN: You also said you weren't feeling very good. In fact, I think I

asked you this ‘is this the worst you felt in your life’ and you -

you agreed with that. Is that true? Is that a fair statement?

KACHKAR: Um, yeah. But it's separate from that. It wasn't because I'm here

or there. I wasn't feeling good just because - just like if you were

eating and then you told me to leave.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Say if the food came and you said leave; I would feel like bad.

That's all it was.

NIELSEN: So when you say you felt bad, bad enough to go to the hospital

or clinic, because you wanted to see a doctor? That's what you

said right?

KACHKAR: Yeah.




NIELSEN: And I asked you if this was the worst you felt in your life and

you said yes. But was it bad like you just described, somebody

asking you to leave and you don't want to or is it bad for some

other reason? Because the way I understood it, it's not---

KACHKAR: Bad becauseI know I'm not gonna (sic) go back anymore. That's

the end of it.

NIELSEN: Back to?

KACHKAR: Back home, or care or anything. Even if the call and say oh

Ashley's in trouble; I can’t help you anymore.

NIELSEN: Had you made that decision?

KACHKAR: I did make that decision.

NIELSEN: When did you make that decision?

KACHKAR: When they – that - when I left Toronto that night.

NIELSEN: You said?

KACHKAR: When I left St. Catharines that night.




NIELSEN: So that was a pretty final decision on your part?

KACHKAR: A very final decision.

NIELSEN: You said you weren't gonna (sic) go back?

KACHKAR: Ah, it's not that I wasn't gonna (sic) go back, but I'm not gonna

(sic) go here and there and call and everything that’s - that’s, this

was decided. That was after the shelter I think um - in St.

Catharines. That was the purpose of that.

NIELSEN: Alright.

KACHKAR: I could have stayed at the house too. I could have stayed. Even

at night they didn't want me there, I couldn't have said oh please

can I stay, they would of let me stay. But I had enough of that.

NIELSEN: You had enough then?

KACHKAR: Yeah. It wasn't – it wasn’t right for me. It wasn't right for them

They don't want me around, they want their privacy. I respect

that. Just like I knock on the door and I'd say can I come in you

say no you’re busy.




NIELSEN: And so when you went - you said you went to Toronto you made

the decision that you weren't gonna go back?

KACHKAR: No. I wasn’t gonna (sic) go back. I was gonna (sic) stay, find a

place and go for the housing, get my housing, and whatever

whatever to get my work going.

NIELSEN: So again, this - you don't think this happened, this incident you

can't remember - you don't think it happened because you were

upset with your life?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: Do you have any explanation why something like this would

happen?

KACHKAR: I've been way more upset in my life. I've been upset with my

dad, what happened, my sister. I've been upset before, with the

wife and and a lot. This wasn't upsetting this was a a good - it

was a - it was a almost a good time. You know kids are older

now. They are, they’re 21 and 18. That's it, they got to be okay.

I've got to move on. I don't know what happened to me.




NIELSEN: Is this the first time that you made this decision that you were

gonna (sic) move on?

KACHKAR: Yeah. But even before when I was here, always I’m thinking

that I'm gonna (sic) go on the weekends, go back home see the

kids when I'm working here.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: Always I’m going back. Even the bus driver was asking ‘you're

spending more money on the bus than you’re um – than you’re

ah making.’

NIELSEN: Do you have any questions of me or do you have any more

questions?

VRUNA: No, I just ah - when you went to the hospital you actually went

into the hospital, did you register when you were there or?


VRUNA: Did you tell the reception there that … you went into the

Emerge or where did you go?




KACHKAR: I went into some – through this - I went through there the

security guard took me and took me there.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And I think I gave her my name maybe. But there was like five

people, six people there. The lady with cancer, another old lady

there. There was a whole bunch of people there.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And I said and how am I supposed to do that? How am I

supposed to wait? She said look everybody's waiting.

VRUNA: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And then somebody yelled at me and a guy says oh I'm a med

student, and my mom has cancer and we’re waiting.

VRUNA: Okay. But you gave your name?





VRUNA: Yeah. I got … the only question I have is um you know the

family of this officer right is gonna (sic) wanna (sic) know that

ah Detective Sergeant NIELSEN and myself have spoken to you.

KACHKAR: M-hm.

VRUNA: Is there anything you want us to say to them?

KACHKAR: I'm just so um sad that I did something like that tragic. Now they

don't have a daddy and their kids and everything like that. It's

just - it's just horrible thing. Horrible thing. I don't even know

why - why or how or? I'm sorry. Sorry is not even a word.

What do you,what … it was an accident. It wasn't meant to be.

Kids without their daddy not coming home and the wife has no

husband and all their family and friends and a man of such nice

position.

NIELSEN: Can I ask you something about what you just said? If you don't

remember, how do you know it was an accident?

KACHKAR: Because I never planned it. Never did any – never went on

purpose. It was some - something happened.

NIELSEN: Like how do you know it was an accident?




KACHKAR: Well, because I never planned it never.

NIELSEN: Because you didn't plan it ahead of time? You just kind of just

did it?

KACHKAR: But that I did it. Driving was night time. I don't know what

happened.

NIELSEN: Just because it was night when you were driving, do you have a

hard time remembering?

KACHKAR: I don't remember any of that.

NIELSEN: You don't remember any of it?

KACHKAR: The cars coming and going this way and that way and I can't turn

and just confused.

NIELSEN: What was making you confused? The cars or because it was

night?

KACHKAR: Just like, I didn't even know what I was doing. Where I was

going.




NIELSEN: Where did you think you were going?

KACHKAR: Just running.

NIELSEN: Just running?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: What were you running from?

KACHKAR: I don't know. That's what I'm saying. I really don't know what

happened. It's weird … I don't know what happened.

NIELSEN: Do you remember hitting any cars?

KACHKAR: I don't know, there's something's coming …

NIELSEN: I know.

KACHKAR: … flashing everything. But, I don't know. I can't recall what’s

happened that night.

NIELSEN: What kind of things are flashing?




KACHKAR: Just lights and cars and I'm driving and that's all. I don't

remember---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---any of those details.

NIELSEN: Okay. Now do you remember how it is you got to be driving?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: And you don’t remember hitting anything? So what are some of

the details that you do remember?

KACHKAR: I don't remember anything.

NIELSEN: You don't remember talking to anybody when you were driving?

Do you remember anybody, anybody saying anything to you?

KACHKAR: Someone with me when I was driving?

NIELSEN: Saying anything to you while you were driving? No. You just

remember driving back and forth?




KACHKAR: I don't even remember. I just don't - I don't even remember that.

NIELSEN: But you said that, that's why I'm asking you that.

KACHKAR: It’s like a dream or something.

NIELSEN: It’s like a dream? What about the lights? What kind of lights?

KACHKAR: Cars. The cars - like I would go this way and then they would

stop and then they would put me this way and then I would –

would sort of blackout or something like that and then I’d back

up and I’d go again and make things happen.

NIELSEN: So you’d back up?

KACHKAR: I don't remember. I'm just … I mentioned, that’s the kind of

lifestyle I had now I do something like that. It doesn't – it

doesn’t---

NIELSEN: Oh, so it sou’- it sounds to me like some of it is coming back to

you?




KACHKAR: Well, whether it's coming back, I don't know where, how and

what, so? If I get – if I sit in - if I sit with somebody---

NIELSEN: M-hm

KACHKAR: ---and – and learn and understand more and more details, I could

do better. I could do more, I could explain more. But right now

I can't recall. Especially, I'd remember um - all I remember,

even in the hospital, getting up and they say just wake up. Yeah,

that's weird. One minute I'm there, one minute I'm there in the

shelter one minute –next minute I'm in the hospital. That's what

I'm seeing.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: And all those little flashes of how I wish I could tell you. Has it

happened to somebody else, I - I don't know. But in your career

you, have you heard of such - such a thing?

NIELSEN: Well it's entirely different. It's---

KACHKAR: M-hm.




NIELSEN: --- I've been doing this for a long time, so every case is different

and this - and this one is different. Every case is different.

KACHKAR: Yeah. I never hurt a fly in my life … I never hurt nothing and

everything I have always helped - helped people. Then have

something tragic like this happen. So either I'm sick, sounds like

I'm sick.

NIELSEN: What do you remember about the vehicle you were driving? Did

you have a hard time driving it?


NIELSEN: Remember how you were dressed?

KACHKAR: No.

NIELSEN: What about the weather, what do you remember about that night

outside? Was it cold?

KACHKAR: I don’t remember.

NIELSEN: You don't remember?




KACHKAR: Isn’t it better I get a - I get the lawyer and we go over that and

get that? Isn't that better in you - in your opinion?

NIELSEN: What I tell you is that’s up to you, that's your choice.

KACHKAR: I need to do that officer. I've been saying that from the

beginning. I need to do that and maybe I'm sick. Obviously I'm

sick.

NIELSEN: You think you're sick?

KACHKAR: For sure I'm sick. Something’s wrong with me. Of course, who

would do that? A normal person wouldn't do that?

NIELSEN: What do you think is wrong with you?

KACHKAR: I don't know, maybe I have some kind of disease in my head or

something? Mental illness.

NIELSEN: Have you – have you ever seen a psychiatrist before?

KACHKAR: A few times.

NIELSEN: You have seen? Okay. Because I asked you that.




KACHKAR: No, I know. But they don't take me in. I go there to see them.

People have recommended me. I go there, I see them, they look

at me, says no, you go and you're okay.

NIELSEN: Who recommended you to see a psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: Like my mom and my - other people and - and in Vancou’- in ah

Toronto.

NIELSEN: Who in Toronto told you to go see a psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: Like my workplace.

NIELSEN: Which workplace?

KACHKAR: At that pharmaceutical company.

NIELSEN: They asked you to go see a psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: Yeah like things happen they say---

NIELSEN: Who – who - who in your workplace asked you to see a

psychiatrist?




KACHKAR: I don’t remember, one of the workers. One of the girls there.

“He’s crazy. Ritchie, you're crazy or whatever.”

NIELSEN: So just sit down and talk or?

KACHKAR: Yeah, just like that.

NIELSEN: Did they say---

KACHKAR: No. No, like that. Like talking. Like we’re doing something

about paperwork or whatever, and I ask this and that and like an

argument and they’re – they’re in an argument and … You

should go in crazy house or whatever.

NIELSEN: Anybody else?

KACHKAR: Well, in St. Catharines when I, when I broke up with my wife,

they said I should go; and I went and he said---

NIELSEN: You went to see a psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: Yeah, I got to see him. Yeah.




NIELSEN: Which one did you go see?

KACHKAR: I don't know, the Canadian Mental Health Association in St.

Catharines. I don't know even if he is a psychiatrist. No, I don't

believe he was.


KACHKAR: Maybe 2005.

NIELSEN: 2005? Like who recommended that you do that?

KACHKAR: Like Child Protection; I think.

NIELSEN: So the Children's Aid or?

KACHKAR: M-hm.

NIELSEN: Child Protection or Child and Family Services? That type of

thing?

KACHKAR: Um, I don't think they meant specifically, but they said you

better go get help. Oh, my mother-in-law. Last when we we

talked.




NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Did I mention that?

NIELSEN: Yeah. Did you actually go get help? Did you see the

psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: That’s why I went to Southridge. That's why I went to

Southridge. I went there, told them I'm here and I went and had

a good time. My family was here and they said that's I need –

they need – I need to see - um my mother-in-law said I need to

go see a psychiatrist and take medicine.

NIELSEN: Why?


NIELSEN: No one’s ever told you why? And did you actually ever go and

meet with a psychiatrist?

KACHKAR: Not really. I always meet with the - with the social worker and

everything. And then that's it. I never really go see a

psychiatrist. I’ve never seen a psychiatrist.




NIELSEN: In - in your whole life? So you've never and truly?

KACHKAR: I've been in their offices and everything but never go inside and

visit with them, no.

NIELSEN: Do you have appointments?

KACHKAR: I think so. Like in Vancouver my mom made me one and he

said get out of here, he says who told you to come here I said oh

my mom. He goes oh that's garbage.

NIELSEN: You’ve made appointments but you never actually sat down in

an office with a psychiatrist who asked you questions. That's

never happened? So you've never been treated for any sickness

of the mind?

KACHKAR: I think I have that.

NIELSEN: You think you have that. Why - why do you say you think you

have that?

KACHKAR: Just look at my actions. Look at my actions. What everybody's

saying I'm doing now. I’m in jail. There’s something wrong




with me. I wouldn't be here. I would be out cleaning my sister's

place or cooking food or being with my dogs. Why would I be

here? Something's wrong with me.

NIELSEN: And that’s your explanation for that. You have no - other than –

because this has never happened to you before?

KACHKAR: Opposite. Opposite. I've always been caring. Even coming

home off of the bus. Somebody's causing a ruckus on the bus,

I'll – I’ll make sure he's okay and sit until the bus stops. I'm

there you know? Car accidents, I'd be driving my truck and

would be doing my deliveries and (Inaudible) puff of smoke

everybody is driving by. I would stop my truck, go help the

people out if they're stuck in the guardrail. A lot of accidents.

That's what I'm saying. It’s very unusual. It's the weirdest thing

that ever happened to me.

NIELSEN: It’s the weirdest thing?

KACHKAR: Yeah.

NIELSEN: It’s the weirdest thing in - in your life that's ever happened?




KACHKAR: Of course. Weird is not even - I took a li--- I did a lot of

damage.

NOTICED THAT VIDEO

CAMERA STOPPED

WORKING ATTEMPT TO

RESTART IT WAS MADE

TIME ON AUDIO PORTION IS

VRUNA: Um---

NIELSEN: Okay. Our camera is not working and it’s um - we just noticed it

at 2:03 p.m. but our audio recorder is still working.

KACHKAR: So ah - so – sorry, officer may have the time please?

NIELSEN: It’s 2:03.

KACHKAR: 2:03. So when I go back to my thing, I'm definitely gonna (sic)

call some help.

NIELSEN: That’s up to you.




KACHKAR: I have to.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: Because I don't recall. I would tell you. I would tell you

everything. I don't know what's going on.

NIELSEN: Okay.

KACHKAR: It’s so - so out of character, out of touch. As far as the family

and everything, how - how - it will be like my whole family. It's

my whole family, that what happen. Even I feel that now I did

that. How could somebody prepare for that like? Like I'm

driving on anywhere or do anything to cause that? Or in the

army or somewhere and you do that. I never take or hurt

nobody. Now I have to … you know?

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CAMERA AND IT




STARTS RECORDING

HERE)

They must - I hope they're not angry. I hope they're not angry.

NIELSEN: Who’s - who's they?

KACHKAR: The family.

NIELSEN: The family of?

KACHKAR: Of the victims. I hope they're not angry.

NIELSEN: Well, they're upset.

KACHKAR: Yeah. Ah – ah but angry. Because I know, because I'm sick so.

NIELSEN: They’re devastated at their loss.

KACHKAR: Yeah. But I’m - something's wrong with me. That's all I think

about is that loss.




(VIDEO STOPS

WORKING AT THIS

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REMAINING PORTION

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I'm not worried about this even the rest of my life, I'd stay here.

What is mine. I did that. I caused that much damage. What

could, why – what how can I – ever, how can I ever be?

NIELSEN: How much damage do you think you caused?

KACHKAR: A lifetime damage for people. No father now, I feel bad.

Irreparable. Like if this happened to your family or my family or

anybody's family. It happened to somebody's family. A nice

family.




NIELSEN: Well, what would you like - would you like us to say anything to

the family?

KACHKAR: Just like that he’s my own family, my own father too that I did it.

It was like - my own father. My own son, my own kids, the

same. I feel the same---

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: ---it wouldn’t be. (Inaudible) So those things never should of

happened.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I shouldn't of been out there you know I shouldn't - it shouldn't

of happened. I put his life … it shouldn't of happened. And if I

spend the rest of my life in thing that's still nothing. I've never

spent a – a day in these places and now I’m here? It's so weird

for me, really. It not weird; it's just I’m - do you see I'm not well

when you look at me? Do you feel something's wrong? You

must feel that?




NIELSEN: Ah, again to be fair, you seem pretty normal to me. I mean

we've been able to converse for I think three hours now or 2 and

a 1/2 hours. Um yeah, I'm just trying to understand what

happened. That's what I see.

KACHKAR: I don't even know that area. I don't even know that.

NIELSEN: M-hm.

KACHKAR: I come from a good family. I don’t know what happened to me.

I just feel in my own family. I’m very, very, very, very, very

sorry that never um - and – and my family too. My family must

be so disappointed in that. We don't see people in our lives - we

don't see people different like that. It happens to anybody, it

happens to us. I don't feel different. My kids. My kids, I don’t

feel that.

NIELSEN: Well, Mary do you have anymore questions?

VRUNA: No, I don't.

NIELSEN: Okay. We've been talking for quite a long time um which -ah

the time right now, what we’re gonna (sic) do is we’re gonna

(sic) get the – the guards are gonna (sic) take you back to the




infirmary okay? Um, the time right now is 2:08 p.m. I'm just

gonna (sic) get up---

KACHKAR: Okay.

NIELSEN: ---and I’ll have you stay there until I get them to come and get

you okay?

MALE: Yes sir.

NIELSEN: If I could get your names? What are your names?

CUMMING: Fred CUMMING.

HARDING: Kyle HARDING.

NIELSEN: Alright. Do you have badge numbers or anything?

CUMMING: 0343

HARDING: 0194




NIELSEN: Okay. Richard it's ah – it’s now 2:09 p.m. There’s two security

officers here ah Fred CUMMING, badge 0343 and Kyle

HARDING, 0194. They’re gonna (sic) escort you out okay?

KACHKAR: Thank you

NIELSEN: Okay. There’s Darren JONES here as well. I'm turning the

recording off at ah - it's just after ah 2:09 p.m.

kachkar-policeinterview

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