july 2013 demos family oral histories

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Demos Family Oral Histories

Ridley Creek State Park, Pennsylvania.July 6, 2013.

The following conversations were recorded at the Demos Family Reunion in RidleyCreek State Park, Pennsylvania, in July of 2013. With the exception of Noel and JoslynDemos, all of the descendents of Hlne and Miltiades Demos were able to attend, aswell as some of Costas and Eva Demoss descendents. Genevieve Demos Kelley andRosemary Demos interviewed Diana Demos Baragar, Roger Demos, Peter Demos, andBarbara Demos Eller, as well as (briefly) Hunter Demos, Lynn Demos, and Tony Eller.Most of the memories come from the childhood and early adulthood of the speakers(1940s to 1960s). Some memories are passed down from the accounts of previous

generations.


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Table of Contents

I. Diana Baragar, Roger Demos.Christmas at the Demos House. World War II memories. Home life in Media.page 3

II. Hunter Demos, Lynn Demos.In-laws Impressions of the Demos Family.page 13

III.Barbara and Tony Eller.Memories of Greek Forebears.page 15

IV. Peter Demos.

Mathematics in the Demos and Demetracopoulos family. Miscellaneous Memories.page 17

V. Peter Demos.Stories of the Gunther cousins. Memories of WWII in the Demos family. page 21

VI. Peter Demos, Barbara Eller.Stories of Childhood Games and Activities in Amenia, New York City, Florida. page 26

VII. Peter Demos, Barbara Eller.Stories of the Demos cousins. Peter and Joslyns Summer in Ohio. Stories from Turkey.page 31

VIII. Barbara Eller.Memories of relatives in Greece, Cyprus, and Turkey.page38

IX. Peter Demos, Barbara Demos Eller.Demetracopoulos stories. Joslyn and Peters Ohio summer. Peters summer jobs.

page 40

X. Peter Demos, Barbara Demos Eller.Mama climbing the ladder. Memories of Mamas Fearlessness.page 46


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I. Diana Baragar and Roger Demos.Christmas at the Demos House. World War II memories. Home life in Media.

Genevieve: This is Diana. So Christmas?

Diana: Well, Christmas Eve, the tree was up with candles on it. We always had candles

on it. There was always a pail of water and even an insect repellent sprayer full ofwater, and maybe a sponge. Then we lit the candles. The tree was always sprayed withwater to keep it fresh, and, of course, there was always water in the can below. And onChristmas Eve, we would have Christmas carols, and it always ended with SilentNight.

Genevieve: So, what kind of Christmas presents did you give each other? Did you haveany memorable presents?

Diana:Well, one year, I think it was the five of us children poor Roger didnt get

much allowance because he was too much youngerbut we saved up our moneywe pooled our money, we went down to Philadelphia to the Sears Roebuck-- (they didnot have general stores so I think it was just a special store, one of the few SearsRoebucks stores at that time)and bought a radio, am and fm. FM was new at thattime, or fairly new, and so we could listen . . . We did have a radio before, but lots ofstatic . . . And Papa would always listen to the opera on Saturday afternoon. You canstill listen to the opera on Saturday afternoon!

Genevieve: My father used to say something about Jack Armstrong, American Boy.Were there any radio shows that you remember that were stories?

Diana: Oh my. He liked the scary ones. So there was The Shadow . . . knows what evillurks in the hearts of men. And there was the Lone Ranger and there was, whatelse was there, The Hornet . . . The Green Hornet.

Genevieve: So those were my fathers shows. Did you have a different set of radioshows that you enjoyed?

Diana: No, I dont remember choosing any shows myself. And that seemed to be thetype of shows that were on.

Genevieve: What about TV? Did your family have a television?

Diana: No. I never saw onewell, I suppose I saw a TV in the store, but even myparents didnt get a TV until after I left, perhaps in about 1960. Now TVs arent all thatold, and color TVs, although I had certainly seen color TVs before then, they were veryexpensive. And what I really sort of regret is that we did not get Mama a color TVwhile she was bedridden.

Genevieve: She had a black and white TV but not a color TV?


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Diana: Right. I can tell you something thats completely different.

Genevieve: Yes. Id love to hear it.

Diana: Joslyn promised, maybe he was 15, and I was 12, that he would take me to the

moon. People have gone to the moon, but I dont think I will.

Genevieve: He promised that he would take you to the moon?

Diana: Yes.

Genevieve: Whats the context of that?

Diana: I dont know. He was interested in such things, and he thought it would bepossible to go to the moon, and I dont think he really understood just how difficult

going into space, how hard it is on people.

Genevieve: I had never heard that story before. But he always loved looking at the stars,and he always knew about the planets and the phases of the moon. He could tell youwhether it was gibbous and all of that sort of thing. What kinds of things did you dofor fun when you were kids with your brothers? Did you have games, or did you goexploring?

Diana: We went exploring quite frequently. We could, our parents sometimes took usto Ridley Creek Park the other one was called Ridley Park, next to Media. And theresone in Media, so we would walk down to the park that was a mile to the west of us, I

dont remember [its name]. . . Glen, Providence Park, and wed watch the ducks andeven feed the ducks. And well, it was quite a walk. But we could walk in the otherdirection, sometimes along the trolley tracks, or sometimes we were driven there.There was another part that was a little wilder, except we had to keep the dog out ofthe stream because the water cleaning for drinking water was upstream, and everyonce in a while they would back wash the charcoal so the stream could be black withcharcoal and it could get on dogs. So once in a while even if we drove to that park wehad to walk the dog home, for one reason or another.

Genevieve: And what was the name of your dog?

Diana: Trixie and then Noel sort of rescued a dog from an apartment, and it ended upat our house, and that was Sappho, was its name before we got it.

Genevieve: I heard there was a dog named Duke at some point. Was that back in NewHampshire?

Diana: That was in Amenia, New York. My mother rescued him from the wild. He wassort of a teenage pup.


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Genevieve: Oh . . . Theres a baby going out into the . . . okay. So Duke was a rescue dogfrom the wild. So did he ever get completely tame?

Diana: Yeah, I think he was pretty well tame, but my mother had five childrenincluding a baby, a very young baby at that time, so she didnt have time to really

discipline him as he should have been disciplined. Duke was lots of fun. He loved togo tobogganing with us. We tobogganed down the hill and one time he didnt get outof the way properly and we tobogganed over his head. Nothing seemed to disturb himat all.

Genevieve: Ive heard that story! Yes, Ive heard that story from my father. So, this wasin Amenia. Can you tell me, why were you in Amenia? Were you staying with arelative?

Diana: No. It was difficult to find a place to stay. My mother had trouble with the heat

because she was pregnant, so we went up to Belmont to Aunt Irenes. And Roger wasborn while we were staying with Aunt Irene.

Genevieve: Now this is Belmont, Massachusetts?

Diana: Massachusetts.

Genevieve: Now this is when your father was a flight instructor? Tell me about that.

Diana: Well, he volunteered. It was called the Army then, it didnt matter what youwere doing. He volunteered. He felt a bit guilty, what shall I say, escaping from the

Greek army. I dont know just what his status was, but he was supposed to go into theGreek army, and instead he escaped to Cyprus. So he thought in the Second WorldWar he would volunteer. He wanted to go into the underground or something likethat, but he was told, no, he had relatives there, it would be too dangerous. Andmaybe we should tell you some stories that Zoe told me.

Genevieve: That would be great.

Diana: Well, Zoe was working, I think, for the American Red Cross in Athens, andwhen the Germans came to Greece, they came very fast, and the British who werethere, some of them were on leave, and they didnt escape fast enough to leave Greece.So there were a certain number of stranded British service men. So the Red Cross wasmaking arrangements clandestine and werent telling the Nazis about this at all. Whatwould happen is that they would make arrangement to take these stranded soldiersout to a waiting submarine. So the submarine had to be contacted to get close enough,and someone who spoke English had to go and tell them. Now they were aware thatthere were a couple of British service men. The locals were bringing them food, butthey could not communicate, and Aunt Zoes boss said, The Nazis are watching metoo closely. Will you go and tell them. They had made the arrangements. Just tell


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them, you know, to come out and go down to the harbor. These were little fishingharbors, so the Nazis couldnt be aware, and someone would row them out to thesubmarine. Isnt that . . . can you imagine doing that? But I guess, when circumstancescome like that, you do what has to be done.

Genevieve: Thats right. Are there any other stories you can me about how WWII

affected your immediate family? I know you left New Hampshire.

Diana: Mama couldnt stand the very cold, and she couldnt stand the very heat. So shewas hoping to get an apartment close to Papa, but everybody wanted an apartmentclose to the barracks, the air force camp.

Genevieve: And where was the camp?

Diana: In Alabama, but I dont know where.

Genevieve: Ah. So she didnt end up in Alabama, so she tried Amenia.

Diana: No. She went to Florida.

Genevieve: And was that with a relative?

Diana: She was semi-promised an apartment in Miami, I think, and that fell through.She had already been through the paper. She got an apartment in New York. She wasdownsizing, so we were supposed to move into that apartment, and then it turned outthat these people couldnt find a smaller apartment, so we didnt get that apartment,so we were house-staying in the trailer, and going to Tante Alices for well, we didnt

have much in the trailer. Trailers at that time were fairly primitive, and it was an oldtrailer already. I guess at that time there were trailers with showers in them, but ourscertainly didnt have anything like that. It did have a little stove, and outside of that,we had a chamber pot. Actually, I think we had a little childs.

Genevieve: After Roger was born or before?

Diana: Before.

Genevieve: So she was pregnant with four small children.

Diana: Well I was six.

Genevieve: Okay, so her children were old enough to do a lot of things for themselves.

Diana: Yes, but they didnt always do it too willingly. It depends what you mean. Ican tell you another story about being small children. Noel actually got me into firstgrade because believe it or not, I was big at that age. And it was November because wehad stayed in New York too long and it was November and Mama wanted me to go


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into kindergarten, and the school did not have kindergarten, and it was just anelementary school, so Noel had to go to another school. And Mama wanted to meetthe teachers. So, while Mama was meeting the teachers, Noel and I were in theprincipals office, and he was bragging about me. At that time, I could add 2 + 2 = 4; 4+ 4 = 8; and I certainly could go up to 1000.

Genevieve: In your head?

Diana: Yes.

Genevieve: You could go up to 1000, so you could add any three digit number withitself?

Diana: No just you know, add powers of two.

Genevieve: Oh the powers of two. Okay, so 1024, technically.

Diana: 1024, yes. Thats why I tell people thats a good number to know: 2 to the powerof a nice round 10. And by the time Mama got back to the principals office I was infirst grade on probation. So there I was in first grade on probation, I think it was a fewweeks. I was five years old, I dont know all the technicalities, and I passed theprobation, and after that, the principal found out I was too young. But what was shegoing to do? I had adapted to grade one, and thats what could happen. But thesedays, were so official in the cut off date. And anybody with three older brothers, threeolder siblings, you know?

Genevieve: Alvin, would you like to be interviewed as well? Would you like to be part

of the oral history?

Alvin:Part of the oil industry?

Genevieve: Part of the oral history.

Alvin: Oral history!

Genevieve: You could tell your first impressions of the family, when you first meteveryone. If youre interested. Right now Im listening to Dianas stories about gettinginto first grade.

Alvin:Okay. When she graduates . . . it will be time for me to join the conversation.

Genevieve: Okay.

Alvin:Not from grade one . . .

Genevieve: Okay. So you had three older siblings, three older brothers . . .


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Diana: And they teach the younger. And the younger child always wants to knowwhat the older children are doing. The younger child always tries to keep up, much tothe older siblings displeasure sometimes, especially when its out playing something.

Genevieve: Did you sometimes want to join in games and were a little too young for

that?

Diana: Oh yes.

Genevieve: What kinds of games?

Diana: Actually, they were more active games, rather than card games or anything likethat.

Genevieve: So, baseball or basketball? Or capture the flag?

Diana: I dont remember playing baseball or basketball, actually. We should ask someof my older brothers. Older siblings!

Genevieve: And how old were you when Roger was born?

Diana: Six, and almost a half?

Genevieve: So, what did you think about not being the baby of the family any more?

Diana: I dont know. Mama had trouble nursing, so she gave him the bottle, and at that

time they were saying the cows milk, the formula was as good as mothers milk. Andso, Mama would prop me in a chair and give me Roger to give the bottle to Roger, soat six, I was giving him a bottle, almost seven, I guess.

Genevieve: And how old were you when you moved into the big house in Media?

Diana: Eight.

Genevieve: And that was after the war was over?

Diana: That was after the war was over. Papa went back to teach in New Hampshire,but it was too cold for Mama. Mama had some trouble with her health. When she waslittle, when she was in Switzerland, I dont know just what happened, but she says shefroze her lungs, which is not really something that happens, but they had to cup herchest.

Genevieve: So, she had a hard time in New Hampshire, so you moved to Pennsylvania,and when you moved to the big house in Media that must have been . . .


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Diana: Liberty! I had a bedroom!

Genevieve: How many bedrooms were in that house?

Diana: Six. [Roger corroborates . . .]

Genevieve: Would you like to pull your chairs closer together?

Roger:Im listening.

Genevieve: All right, well well do one at a time then. So what else can you tell me?

Diana: Oh, getting to school. When I was in the first grade. It must have been a milebecause it was . . . it might not have been quite that far. But the shortest way to go wasthrough a field, and my brothers, bless them, told me it was full of bulls. Be careful,those are bulls down there! Well, it wasnt until I was much older that I realized that

bulls do not stay together in a field. You dont have more than one bullThey werecontented cows! But whatever my mother told me, she probably told me they werejust cows, but to me, the boys had said they were bulls, so they were bulls.

Genevieve: So you walked past this field on your way to school.

Diana: We had to go through the field. But it was a big enough field that the cowscould be at one end . . . That was the shortest way to go. Sometimes we went bystreets.

Genevieve: Hi. [Owen: He wants his Mommy.] Ill skip the first game . . . Okay this is

Roger.

Roger:I dont remember coming to Media. I was only two.

Genevieve: So you just grew up there, and lived there your whole life until you gotmarried?

Roger:I lived in more places before I got to Media than I did afterwards. So I was theonly one that went to the same school, K-12. I went to the same building complex, K-12, not just the same school and walked to school every day and came home. Andcame home for lunch because we had a long lunch.

Genevieve: Oh you came home for lunch.

Diana: 35 minutes in high school. So you run home and, well, it was 30 minutes plusthe 2 !minutes between periods.

Genevieve: And this was a mile away?


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Diana: Oh no.

Roger:3 !blocks.

Genevieve: So, you would come home, and your mother would have somethingwaiting for you?

Roger:Yes, we would come home for lunch. Except for my senior year, I worked in thecafeteria a couple days a week, and those days they fed me. And Mrs. Bad made surethat I got nice generous helpings, even though the manager said you give him toomuch! she said, dont worry about it, you get very nice helpings. But, had to say,Ive lived in Media since I was two, so thats all I remember.

Genevieve: So, what kind of food, speaking of food, what kind of traditional foods didyour family have at holidaysor just favorite foods, favorite meals?

Roger:Every Sunday at 1 oclock we had Sunday dinner and usually had a roast.

Genevieve: Roast beef?

Roger:Roast beef . . . Im trying to think of what else . . . but roast beef quite a bit.

Diana: But it wasnt a prime roast. It was a . . .

Roger:No. Thats right. It was a pot roast. And we used to have pork also. And thenwhen Noel was in college, he worked for Sun Oil, and he went down to the gulf topick up oil on the tankers, and they used to fish on the way down and the way back,

so he would bring up a whole huge fish, sword fish, quite often. And wed havesword fish for day one and day two and day three, and the whole neighborhood hadfish until finally they said, This is it! No more fish!

Diana: He didnt bring it that many . . .

Roger:And I remember at our old house that we had the old wringer washingmachine, and wed go out there and put it in the washer and in the wringer, then goout and hang it up outside. That was in the shed. And the kitchen, we had an old, oldgas stove. All I remember is Papa cooking. I remember Mama baking some, makingpies or making cakes. I dont remember Mama cooking.

Diana: She didnt make pies. It was too hard on her back to roll out the dough. Believeit or not, thats my specialty: pies.

Genevieve: Mmm. Youre making up for it.

Diana: I guess so.


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Genevieve: So are you saying that on a daily basis, your father did the cooking and notyour mother?

Roger:Yes. Yes.

Genevieve: Really?

Diana: Nana would help. Sometimes I would help. Roger would help. Aunt Zoe came.

Roger:Oh! And cooked up neat stuff!

Diana: Yes.

Roger:Aunt Zoe came and would go, Oh, look at all these wonderful dandelions outin the yard. This is wonderful. And shed go out and cut the dandelion greens andwed have dandelion greens.

Diana: I thought that was Nana. Did Aunt Zoe do that too?

Roger:Aunt Zoe did that too.

Diana: But there were other things, lots of Greek food that she made for us. We had alot of hamburger. The ground beef, the cheapest ground beef at the closest store wasthe best anywhere. It was from the A&P, and people say, But I went to the A&P. Itsnot thisquality. I mean they went to another A&P and it was not that quality.

Genevieve: So what can you tell me about your cousins and aunts and uncles? And Im

wondering also if you could start with your mothers side of the family, what youremember about that side of the family since we dont hear about that side as often.

Roger:Well, I remember going to Dicksons wedding in New York. I went up toDicksons wedding up in New York Cousin Dickson. Tante Anne and Uncle James Igot to see quite often because . . .

Genevieve: Who is Dickson?

Roger:Dickson is Uncle James and Tante Annes son. Uncles James and Tante Annecame down and they babysat a farm in Downingtown---basically a sheep farm, so weused to go out and visit them quite often. I dont know if you remember that or if youwere in college.

Diana: I think I went out once.

Roger:Okay.

Diana: It started fairly late.


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Roger:Well, Uncle James taught me how to play poker.

Diana: Really?

Roger:Really.

Diana: I played poker by the time I was seven.

Genevieve: Now tell me about that. How did you learn to play poker?

Diana: I had older brothers! What do you expect?

Genevieve: So the four of you would play poker.

Diana: Oh no, we played with the neighborhood kids too.

Christmas inMedia. Clockwise

from top: Diana,Peter, Joslyn,Roger, Noel.


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II. Hunter Demos and Lynn DemosIn-laws Impressions of the Demos Family.

Genevieve: This is Genevieve, Im here with Hunter, Lynn, and Barbee Eller, and Iwanted to first get the impressions of my mother Lynn and my aunt Hunter(Marianne) about what you thought of the family when you first met the Demos clan.

Did you have any stories or impressions that you can share? So when did you firstmeet them? What was the occasion?

Lynn:Actually, I met them a few years earlier when Jos and I were dating in about1969 or so, and he brought me up to Media to meet everybody. I met Noels family.They had three children. And I met Roger and Grandmama and Grandpapa, and itwas fun, and we lit the Christmas tree candles and let them burn out one by one.

Genevieve: Okay. And you must have been maybe in London at the time? (to Hunter)

Hunter:Oh no. I met Peter in Cambridge. He was in law school, and Peter wanted totake me to meet the family, and I thought that was a very nice thing. And I rememberwhen I first walked into the house and Grandmama came out to greet us, and Ithought it was Rita, she was so beautiful, and dressed so young, and was just such abeautiful, beautiful person. I thought it was Rita, and of course I remember the bighouse, and I remember they portioned out the bedrooms, and they let me and Petersleep in the same room! And Im not sure how that was negotiated but there seemedto be no problem with it. And I think Grandpapa silently ruled the roost. I meanGrandmama was, she was the heart of everything, but Grandpapa was working thestrings in the background to make everything happen, especially the cooking. Thatwas always fun to see Grandpapa in the kitchen.

Genevieve: Do you have any memories of foods that he used to cook?

Lynn:Oh, he was the best chicken frier in the world. He just knew how to do that, andit was never greasy, it was always wonderful. And then he would make a rice pilaf,seasoned veryheavily with cinnamon, and deep-dish apple pie. You know we alwayshad deep-dish apple pie. And he was very proud of it. He would do the whole thing.We would try to help him but he would do that whole meal. We would always lightthe candles on the table. Yeah, we had good times.

Genevieve: What else can you tell me about Grandmama? About her personality, orthings she liked to do?

Hunter:She loved to garden, of course, and that was very much a part . . . well, overthe years because the garden doesnt just happen in a season, and so Ill let Roger,Roger can tell you more about his part in the garden. And I remember she kept a list,she read the paper, and she kept a list of movies they should be certain to see or booksthat they should be certain to read. I dont know if they followed through on it, but Iwas impressed with her list-keeping.


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Lynn:You know, the thing that I always noticed about Grandmama, was that if youwere having a conversation with her, you were saying something and got interruptedby somebody else, afterward she always would come back to where you left off. Shealways wanted to pick up where you left off. She never just went on. She always wasinterested in what everybody had to say, and I thought that was a really good trait.

Genevieve: Is there anything else you would like to add?

Hunter:No, unless theres a special question youre curious about.

Genevieve: Well, Im not sure.

Lynn:Well, at Noels house, I remember, you [Hunter] werent there that time, butPeter came with Stephen and Nicholas they were pretty young. And the Ellers camewith their little kids, and Jos and I were there with you [Genevieve], you were a baby.

And we just hadgreattimes. I just enjoyed the family so much. And Rita wouldalways cook a lot of spaghetti for us all.

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III.Barbara and Tony EllerMemories of Greek Forebears.

Genevieve: Okay. And now heres Barbee Eller, Costass daughter. And Barbee, Iwanted to ask you particularly about the story of Evro, Eurydice . . .

Barbara:Aunt Evro in Greece?

Genevieve: in Greece, yes.

Barbara:When . . . Im going to have to have help from my historian . . .

Genevieve: And this is Tony, Barbees husband. They both recently went on a trip toGreece.

Barbara:And we went to the Gennadeion. Thats where Aunt Evro worked; thats thehistorical library in Greece. It was started in 1927, and then the Germans came and help!

Tony:Well, the story as I recall it, is, of course, during war time, all things of interest tothe Greeks were in danger. And it was Aunt Evro, who really at great risk to her ownpersonal safety squirreled away, I think in her house, several important documents,not works of art, I think books. All the history books of Greece, from the Gennadeionlibrary, and hid them in her home, and they survived, and she received recognition forthis. And she was the, I dont want to say head librarian, what was it, curator maybe?

Barbara:No, she was the head of the library or the second head at the Gennadeion. Youcan look online and read about it; her name is mentioned. So when we went there,they were so open-armed and impressed and took us in and gave us royal treatment,and said, Oh, you should have told us that you were coming, and we would haveprepared. Anyway, they were very impressed.

Tony:The we was Barbee Demos Eller and Anne Demos Ruof, the two daughters ofCostas you were given this VIP treatment at the library.

Barbara:And our granddaughters, one of whose names is Belina Zoe Korali Benichou,and Zoe was the sister of Eurydice, and also had a part in saving Greece during thewar. The person to ask is Connie or Anne. They know the stories better, but Zoe wasan important person in that. And then Korali was the roommate of Aunt Evro, KoraliKrokodeilou, and she was also the dean of Pierce College, so they were impressedwith Belinas name. And, of course, Iris Octavia has this Greek name, so they liked thegrand-daughters. Aunt Evro also was five years old in Constantinople when they weregrowing up and saw lots of the when the Turks came through and mutilated andbeheaded and mangled all the Greeks, and all her life her dreams were bad about allof this activity because she was just a five year old and saw it all. So probably when


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she was risking her life to save these books, she was kind of remembering part of thisupbringing. So.

Genevieve: I had never heard that story before, about the books. Diana actually told astory about Zoe and the Nazis, but Ill let her repeat the thing to you. And I waswondering if you, Barbee or anybody else, could tell me any more stories about the

cousins or the aunts or any other stories that youd like to share.

Barbara: Well, Uncle Raphael, who was head of the philosophy department atHarvard for fifty years, as a six year old, wanted to find out what would happen if heset fire to the toilet paper. And he did. The bathroom was on the sixth floor. They hadsix stories, a six-story house, one room per level. And the water was in the kitchendownstairs, and they had to run water all the way up to put out all this fire.

Genevieve: So they did save the house?

Barbara:Yeah. It was not much damage but he was also, he was very exploratory, whatdo you call it, not rebellious . . .

Tony:Boyish?

Barbara:Boyish? Maybe.

Genevieve: So it was really six stories with one room per story? I cant imagine that.

Barbara:The kitchen was on the bottom. The bathroom was at the top, and I wont tellyou how the bathrooms work. Youll have to ask somebody else, but that was in

Constantinople. Anyway, Raphael would play chess with his siblings, and he wouldbe perhaps losing the game . . . Oh, can we pause just a minute?

Demetracopoulosfamily, circa 1917.Oldest to youngest:Costas, Raphael, Irene,Demetrios, Stephanos,

Zoe, Miltiades,Eurydice, Dorothea


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IV. Peter Demos.Mathematics in the Demos and Demetracopoulos family. Miscellaneous Memories.

Genevieve:Okay. Im here with Peter Demos. And, Peter, I wanted to start by askingyou about some well first of all do you have any stories that you have been wanting totell before I start asking any questions?

Peter:Well, I cant think of any, but maybe Ill tell about Papas reaction to my schoolperformance. So, if I wasnt number one in the class, he would tell me when he wassmall, and he had seven brothers and sisters, that he would tell me that when theywere young, they were always number one in the class.

And I thought, then he said, but there was an exception. And I thought, Aha!Then he said, you see, Demetrios was sick for one year, so he had to stay back a year,and then there were two of my siblings in a class, and they couldnt both be numberone.

Genevieve:Oh ho ho. So, did he have the same attitude toward everybody in yourfamily? Joslyn . . .

Peter:I havent heard that from my siblings, but . . .

Genevieve:But you were expected to be number one. Were you number one?

Peter:No. I resisted living up to expectations. I thought I wanted to be loved forsomething other than my performance.

Genevieve:So, did he do a lot of teaching on the side? I mean, did he teach you math . ..

Peter:No, he didnt teach math directly, but he always had mathematical puzzles. Heloved to do puzzles. And after he died, my brother Roger thought we ought to have amemorial, which we did. My father didnt want one, but Roger said a memorial is forthe living. The night before we went to church, we all collected at my brother Rogershouse and his wife Barbs house, and there was a whole group of us, we were alldoing mathematical puzzles for about three hours, and then the next day after thechurch memorial, I was thinking the best memorial was the one the night before.Thats what he would have liked to be his memorial.

Another mathematical performance, a few stories . . . One was that when he was six orseven years old, his brother Raphael, who was ten years older than him, and his otherolder siblings got into a discussion about whether or not you can teach a child myfathers age algebra. And my uncle Raphael thought that you could, and the othersthought that they couldnt. So Uncle Raphael, they made an agreement that UncleRaphael would teach my father algebra that summer.


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Genevieve:And how old was your father? Six? Six or seven?

Peter:Yeah. So, and the agreement was the others would make up the test.

Genevieve:Okay.

Peter:So after, I dont know, three or four weeks, Uncle Raphael said that Miltiadeswas ready, the others made up a test that wasnt easy particularly, but my fathermaxed it out.

Genevieve:Oh wow! Do you know what was on the test?

Peter:No, and then also when I missed a math problem at school, he would say that henever missed math problems except when he went to graduate school and he wasretained in Ellis Island for months.

Genevieve:For months.

Peter:Yeah, and by the time he got to graduate school, they were taking the midtermtest, so he took the midterm test, and he missed one problem, but he never missedanother problem, ever.

And another story about him. He for a while was on the faculty of ColumbiaUniversity. And he was there for a year after coming back from a fellowship inGermany, after he graduated he went to a fellowship in Germany and came toColumbia. And his young colleagues there were impressed with his intelligence, butthey had a scheme. They went out to a speakeasy, because they were at the time of

Prohibition, they went to a speakeasy, and after he had several beers, they asked himone very difficult proof. And my father just spilled it off just like that. And then, but hedidnt tell them that was going to be the subject of a class he was giving the next day,so he had been preparing for it already.

Genevieve:So did he get this mathematical talent from his parents?

Peter:I dont know. I mean, his father was an Evangelical minister (they called allProtestants Evangelicals at the time in Constantinople). So his father was a, well hewas a church leader. He was a lay minister. He didnt go to any religious training. Hewas a lay minister.

Genevieve:Did he do something else for a profession, besides being a minister? Yourgrandfather? Did he teach school or anything?

Peter:I believe not. But his mother was apparently very well trained. In school she didvery well. At that time, and she was an Orthodox, at that time in Cyprus, girls nevergot more than six years of education. But she had an uncle in Cyprus who was ateacher, and he was a bachelor, and he got a flyer about a school opening up in


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Smyrna, Turkey, now Ismyr, and he thought, you know for teaching girls after sixyears, it was a school established by American ministers, but not of any particulardenomination, and so he said that he would support her going there to that school,and she went, and she did very well in that school I believe, but you cant do it by herstanding in the class, since there were only two in her class, and in the list of graduatesof that school, she is the first one. I saw the registrar, and there was Anna

Constantinidou, the first graduate there of that program, and along the way, shebecame Protestant, and the story is that my grandfather and a buddy as a young man,they were walking through, they were walking along in Smyrna. Smyrna was a Greekcity, well part of the Ottoman empire, but essentially a Greek city, so they werewalking along, and they got attracted to this singing that they heard, so they went intothis thing that might have seemed like a church, but it wasnt like a church, becausethere were not any of the icons that the Greek Orthodox Church has, and apparentlyhe said to his friend that theres a girl up there, a lovely woman up there singing, andtold this friend, Well, why dont you get to know her? And his friend said, Well, ifyou think shes so cute, why dont you meet her? So he did, and he got converted

upon which he became the lay minister back up in Constantinople. So the thoughtwas that he was going to go into business, commerce. He was born in Portaria, whichis in whats now the Greek mainland, and my grandfathers father was one of threechildren, and three boys anyway, in the old days, children meant boys, becausewomen didnt, girls didnt count, but anyway, the three of them decided that one ofthem ought to stay back in the village and maintain the household and the other twowould go into commerce in Smyrna, which was a big center of commerce, you knowacross the Aegean Sea, and the two of them that went in commerce would take care ofthe education of the sons of the one that stayed behind. So the one that stayed behindhad twelve boys who were all promised an education in Smyrna.

Genevieve:So who is this? So this is your fathers uncle, who stayed?

Peter:No, that would be my fathers fathers uncle.

Genevieve:So Stavross uncle.

Peter:Yeah, was giving them an education in Smyrna to become a businessman orgiven a practice, or he got into the business, but anyway after he met Anna, I guess shewas a pretty powerful person. So, she might have been the powerful intellect in thatfamily, but Im not sure. But theres some other things about that too. Uh, I forgotwhat I was going to say. So thats you know mostly. I dont know if thats in the familyhistory or not. Oh when I was in Greece about a decade ago I met somebody who wasa Protestant, a Protestant from Asia Minor, and he was writing a history of theProtestant movement in Asia Minor, focusing on six families, one of which was ourfamily. And he had a lot of stories about them, including that my Aunt Zoe was inlove with somebody that he was Orthodox and she was Protestant, and it came tonought, and Aunt Zoe was supposed to have been a very attractive woman, somewhatvoluptuous.


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Genevieve:Can you tell me any stories about the home life there in Constantinople withthe nine children?

Peter:Well there were nine children, but after a while there were many more childrenbecause one of the other families that he was doing a story about was the Nicolidoufamily, which Zoe Canellakis is a [descendent of]. So there was a bookseller that was

very good friends of my grandfather, and the two families were very close. Booksellersin the old days meant that you sold mostly bibles and then some other books, so Zoe . .. (hey, you guys, Stephen, hey move away here; were recording! . . . So get that downin there too.) So the wife of the bookseller died in childbirth after having seven oreight kids, and when a wife dies, theyre orphans because in those days, men didnttake care of their children or make the home, so all those children moved into thehousehold of my grandparents, and Zoe Canellakis was always considered a memberof our family. I knew her parents as uncle and aunt, and Zoes mother was like a bigsister to Miltiades. So they were always, any time there was a Demos family reunion,they were always part of the things. I mean it centered around Boston, where a lot of

the relatives were.

Genevieve:Now is it true their house was six rooms? And each story was one room, soit was six stories?

Peter:I dont know about that. I know that my father said that at night you would goto a stack of mattresses in the corner, and pull one out, and go and sleep on themattress on the floor, where there were, there might have been, you know, a dozensleeping there, and that periodically his mother would take the mattresses out andsoak them in kerosene to get rid of the bed bugs.

Genevieve:Oh my goodness!

Peter:Well, Ill tell you something else, when my father was in dementia, he talkedabout Zoes mother like a big sister, but she was his first grade teacher. She learned tobe a teacher, so she was, you know, somewhat older, and in dementia, my father saidwhat a great person she was. When she was at school, she was just a teacher, not hisbig sister, but when he was home, there was no teacher left, she was just a big sister.

Genevieve:And what was her name?

Peter:Sophia.

* * * * * * * * * * *


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V. Peter Demos.Stories of the Gunther cousins. Memories of WWII in the Demos family.

Peter:My mother's family I don't know that much about. Joslyn knew more than anyof us. I did go to, however, my mother's big sister's funeral. Well do you want me totell you how my mother got to the states? Do you know that?

Well my mother's mother was married to a Gemran. My mother's mother was French-Swiss, and that's how my mother got the maiden name of Gunther. Back before the,back in 1910, somewhere around there, Germany was becoming very nationalistic andmy mother's mother wanted to go back to Germany. [Correction:] My mother's fatherwanted to go back to Germany, and my mother's mother didn't want to. When mymother was about three years old, they got divorced.

Genevieve:And that was the reason as you understood it? Because he wanted to go toGermany and she didn't?

Peter:Well, yeah, that's the way I understood it. That might not be true, but some yearslater, he wanted to take the kids to Germany. Okay? This was during the First WorldWar. He wanted her older brother to fight the Germans. So Mama's mother, I don'tknow how she got to be a governess in the States, but she left the four children,including my mother, with some relatives in the mountains of Switzerland, wherethey maybe couldn't be found, and . . .

Genevieve:As in they were hiding from their father . . .

Peter:Yeah.

Genevieve: . . . who wanted them in Germany.

Peter:Right. So my mother's mother got the International Red Cross to help get herchildren to the States. And finally they got a deal, not a deal, they got a way to come tothe States, and from Switzerland they went to a port in France. I do not know howthey got across there, but you know her oldest brother must have been seventeen,eighteen years old. So anyway, they got on an American troop ship taking Americantroops back to the States. Her mother had told her older sister, "Don't let the childrenplay with the soldiers." Because, I don't know what she expected the soldiers, uh. . .My mother's sister, she was seven years older than my mother, who was ten, gotseasick, so she was stuck in bed. So my mother had free range of the boat, and thesoldiers just really loved her, because a lot of them had families back home andeverything. So she said she had the most fun in the world. She didn't know anyEnglish at all. So anyway, so they were coming across the North Atlantic with radiosilence, so they didn't have any news or anything. Finally, when they landed, theyfound out that the war, the First World War had ended. So, you know, she got hereNovember 1918. ---One of the things she said she really played with them, playedtricks and stuff, and one time she took a hat of one of the soldiers and hid it and thesoldier wanted the hat back. "Oh," she said, "I threw it overboard." And he was


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horrified he said because he was out of uniform, he wouldn't have the hat. So shethought she'd better tell him she didn't throw it overboard. She didn't realize how badthat was.So she was brought up a lot in the houses of places where her mother was a governess,and they liked to have somebody who spoke French in the house. So she wasgoverness in many places across the country, from Cape Cod to Los Angeles to Kansas

to places like that.

Gunther Family, circa 1913. Left to right: Anne, Hlne, Jeanne, Bertie (Herbert), John.

Genevieve:So she wasn't separated from her mother? I thought that she had to beseparated from her mother in America for a while.

Peter:I don't know anything about being separated. I know her mother died of breastcancer when my mother I think was seventeen or eighteen. I'm not sure of the dates.That's when my mother was back in New York.

Genevieve:Now, so your mother went to Hunter College? Is that right? Do you know?

Peter:I don't know. I'll tell you one of the earlier experiences in the States, which waswith her for the rest of her life. She was going to school soon after she got here---youknow, she didn't know any English. On her way to school, she saw a child skating,going over a little bridge, skating on the pond, and he went through the ice, so she ranto tell somebody. And nobody would understand what she said.

Genevieve:So what happened?


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Peter:So I guess they lost the child. So that was a I dont know if it was a nightmare,but its something that . . . She remembered the horror of it, the frustration of trying toget people to come.

Genevieve:Oh how awful! ---- Now I thought there was a time when you either stayedwith Tante Alice or somebody and there was some con-man that worked in somehow.

I just dont know the story. Whats that? Theres something about a chicken coop, andthen theres something else about somebody, either Tante Alice or somebody wasmarried to a con-man who tried to take the familys savings, or something like that . . .

Peter:Well, yeah, well, I dont know any chicken coop stories other than the stories ofwhen we went to Florida with the trailer and everything back in 43 when my fatherwas in the service. My mother got a small house-trailer and decided that we weregoing to Mexico, okay? Which was pretty adventurous for going in the car that wouldgo thirty miles an hour, you know, pulling a trailer during the war.

Genevieve:Why did she want to go to Mexico?

Peter:She wanted to go someplace that was warmer than New Hampshire, and also,the dollar would go ten times as far (as far as living expenses) in Mexico as it did inthe States. So, off we went. We got as far as New York, and we found out that the U.S.government passed a regulation, prohibiting anybody sending dollars to Mexicobecause the German sympathizers were laundering the money that went to Germanyor to the Axis, you know, during the Second World War. So therefore, we couldnt goanyway. There was a con-man involved. So we stayed in New York.

Genevieve:Was this Amenia? This was a different part of New York.

Peter:No, this is New York City, on our way [to Mexico]. We stayed there about amonth. We did not stay with Tante Alice, but I think it was Uncle Bud who was withTante Alice then, the con-man. And actually, we stayed in a hotel thats still there, Ithink, called Beekman Tower. So she had a small room there, and she and Dianastayed in that room, and the three of us older boys went to stay in the trailer that wasparked on a big lot that was kind of covered with coal because thats where the coalused to be brought up the East River, and there were big silos down at the end of theblock which was on the East River. So that whole block was deserted because theystopped burning coal in New York. It caused incredible pollution and soot at thattime. That block now is developed with offices. The block south of that is where theUN starts, but when we were down there, south of that block there were slaughterhouses and small manufacturing it was really, kind of a bad area. One time we sawa sheep running up First Avenue chased by a little truck with a man on the runningboard with his shotgun, trying to chase the sheep up First Avenue, to get him backagain. So, we didnt know what we were going to do, and Uncle Bud said that he wasgoing to get an inheritance. Thats what the deal was. All he needed was some money,so he could get that inheritance. And he said that was going to inherit a home inMiami, so we went down that way. Of course, it came to naught, and my mother for


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years was still convinced that he had been gypped out of an inheritance and all heneeded was some money. So that became a bone of contention between my father andmother, because my father thought he was a con-man too, and he probably was a con-man because Ive never seen any evidence that it was anything else. I mean, evenwhen I was a lawyer in L.A. my mother asked me for money to go to this con-man, soshe was pretty duped.

Genevieve:So he was Tante Alices husband at the time, or a boyfriend?

Peter:Yeah, boyfriend or partner, something like that.

Genevieve:But that didnt last? It was just a temporary . . .

Peter:No, that went on and on and on. I dont know for how long it went on. When, inher later years I know up in Fort Washington in Manhattan that that wasnt . . . No,she did not move up there. That was somebody else. That was her sister.

Genevieve:Yeah. She was staying with Irene at Belmont, right? Did she stay with Irenein Belmont . . .

Peter:Irene in Belmont? When we got backfrom Florida, we went up to Belmont,Massachusetts. At that time she was pregnant with Roger. When we were in Florida,my father came home for Christmas vacation, Christmas furlough from the service,and Roger was born September 7th, and she went to the army fort outside of Bostonwhere she had the baby. And thats when we stayed with Aunt Irene for severalmonths. During that time, Mama, pretty soon after Roger was born, wanted to find aplace near New York City, so she could be close to her aunt.

Genevieve:And this was her Aunt Alice . . .

Peter:No, Tante Alice was her sister.

Genevieve:I thought really? Because Anne was her sister.

Peter:Okay, thats right Tante Alice. Youre right. Tante Anne was her sister.

Genevieve:So when you say she wanted to be close to her aunt, was that Alice thatyoure referring to?

Peter:Yeah. So anyway, so she left Roger in the care of Noel, Joslyn, and me. And letme tell you, we did everything. We made the formula, we changed the diapers, weswished them out in the toilet, did the laundry, did the formula the whole shebang.

Genevieve:So just to clarify, this was an overnight. She was gone day and night. Shewent on a trip. She didnt come back every evening.


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Peter:No. She was gone for a week or more.

Genevieve:And you had no adult supervision whatsoever?

Peter:Well, I mean, you know, Aunt Irene would come around. She made the food,but she didnt stay there. So we did it all. I dont remember. But . . .

Genevieve:You were in Irenes house.

Peter:Yeah.

Genevieve:So you werent kids in a house by yourself, but you were the ones in chargeof the baby. And who was the best with the baby: you, Noel, or Joslyn?

Peter:Well, it was I think Noel and I, but maybe Im prejudiced in my remembering.But when I had my first son, the nurse said, when I went to the hospital, Do you want

to try to change the diaper of your son? and I just did it. And she said, Whoa, didyou have a family before? because in those days, there were safety pins . . . you putyour fingers behind the cloth diapers, you know, so you could put the safety pin inright. I dont know if you brought your kids up that way . . .

Genevieve:Well, my younger siblings did cloth diapers with safety pins, so I knowabout that.

* * * * * * * * * * * *


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VI. Peter Demos, Barbara Eller.Stories of Childhood Games and Activities in Amenia, New York City, Florida.

Genevieve:So tell me some stories about the boys, the three boys, when you were small.What kinds of things did you do for fun? Did you play indoor games or outdoorgames?

Peter:Well, in the winter we played indoor games. We finally lived in Amenia, in NewYork, which wasnt that close to New York City, but there was a railroad line up there.Anything closer was too expensive. So we were up there, and we did things like . . .we went through the whole book of card games and learned every card game in there,except bridge, but close to it. My father taught us bridge as soon as he got out of thearmy. But we went through every game, and we knew which ones were any good andwhich ones werent so good.

Genevieve:Which ones were your favorite?

Peter:Well, we played canasta, but canasta was a nothing game because once youknew how to play it, it was obvious what you do, and it didnt make any sense to playit anymore. But we liked . . .

Genevieve:Wait, is this canasta, is it with an R at the end, like canister?

Peter:No. Canasta. Cansta.

Barbara Eller: Do you know what we used to do?

Peter:Oh, so Im doing an interview.

B: Oh, I know but I want to tell . . . We used to do. We used to stand and run andswing our arms and touch in front and in back to see who could do this a lot. And Icould never reach because my arms werent long enough, and I always felt bad.

Peter:Is that part of the interview?

B: Thats part of the interview.

Peter:Okay. So, anyway, we liked 500 Rum. That was one of them that we really liked.

Genevieve:So, what about outdoor things. Did you do adventures?

Peter:So we did, yeah. That year we were in Amenia, New York, we used to play withour friends. We used to play cops and robbers, and there was a series of houses therethat we could run across the roofs and jump over to other roofs and play.


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Genevieve:What?! Wait, wait, wait, you would run across the roofs and jump to otherroofs?

Peter:Yeah. And when we were in Florida, a lot of the kids did that, includingjumping from a roof and swinging on a branch to get to the other roof.

Rosemary: So how high were the houses?

Peter:Yeah, they were pretty tall. These kids down in Florida, they would come outthe second floor window and jump to the ground.

Genevieve:I guess there arent too many rocks in Florida.

Peter:Well, I dont know. Not too many rocks. We roller-skated a lot, back in the olddays with steel roller skates. And even before we went to Florida I remember one timemy father came home and said, (you know it was a warm day), and he said that the

day didnt go too well, there were a bunch of children rolling past the open window,roller skating past and making a lot of noise, and we were wondering if that was thetime we went by. Because a college campus is a wonderful place to roller skatebecause they have those nice wide sidewalks and no traffic. I remember in Florida weused to like to, well, even before we went to Florida we roller skated up 1stAvenue,and we would hold on to the back of trucks or cars and then let them pull us up 1stAvenue. And then we went up to the 59thStreet Bridge, and then we walked across the59thStreet Bridge.

Genevieve:Where is this?

Peter:This was in Manhattan, when we were staying there. So we walked partwayacross, and that was right over what is now Roosevelt Island. (I dont know if youknow New York). At that time it was called Welfare Island, and there was insaneasylum down there we knew, so we looked over the bridge to see if we could see anynuts down there running around.

Genevieve:And this was the three boys mostly who did it?

Peter:Yeah, I mean Diana was too young. I remember that we stayed in New York onour way down, there was a pier at the end of 47thStreet where we stayed, a pier ontothe East River. And there was a coast guard boat there that was tethered there, andthey were keeping track of the ships coming up the East River making sure there wasnothing, you know, wrong, and we all wanted to go down and see what the PT boatwas like. But they wouldnt let any of us down except Diana because she was surelytoo young to pick up any information.

Genevieve:Right. Little did they know how smart she was. They should have beenmore careful.


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Peter:Oh yeah, maybe three years younger than Jos. Well, I remember that Joslyn,Noel, and I had this blond hair, and Joslyn especially had a little bit of reddish in it,and wherever wed go, people thought how cute we were. Then when Diana camealong, everybody thinks the younger baby is cuter. So theres Diana with dark hair,and it wasnt curly like ours, and we would stand there listening to everybody makingoohs and aahs about the baby.

Genevieve:Well, Diana was a very cute baby. Ive seen the pictures. She wasexceptionally cute, I would say.

Peter:Well, you know what my father said.

Demos Family circa 1939. Left to right: Noel, Peter, Joslyn, Diana.

Genevieve:No.

Peter:He said that Stephen was a very very cute baby, but Peter was the best lookingbaby he ever knew.

Genevieve:Your father said that you were the best looking baby. Oh.

Peter:So then, when I told Stephen that, Stephen said, Yeah, but he never metChristian, Noels youngest who died.


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Genevieve:Your father never met him?

Peter:No, my father I think didnt meet Christian. Maybe he met Christian, but I dontknow. Yeah, he must have met Christian.

Genevieve:So then who did Diana have to play with? If the three boys . . .

Peter:Well, we played some with Diana, but you know, she was kind of younger, andsometimes it was only Noel and I doing things without Joslyn, kind of older things,because I was taller, you know, I played up a lot to Noel to keep up with him, andJoslyn couldnt do it. Then Noel and I played football with the kids around the placethat Joslyn was really too small for. And that was, you know, it was kind of brutal,because I was tall, people thought I was bigger, but I was . . .

Genevieve:But you were so skinny! But remind me was there, didnt you have amedical condition that made you very very skinny, or something? Was it polio or

something?

Peter:Well, my mother was teaching us all to be well, the three of uswas teachingus to be bilingual by speaking French with us when my father wasnt home. And thenat one time I stopped talking when I was, I dont know, maybe three years old or fouryears old or maybe younger. So she stopped doing it because she thought speakingtwo languages messed up my mind. What happened . . . I mean later on, I mean, Ididnt think much about it, and she didnt either, but I had problems swallowing myfood. So I remember being at the dinner table after everybody left trying to get thefish, which she thought if she cooked more maybe I could swallow it better, but itmade it dryer, that was the principal problem. So I couldnt get it down, and she

wouldnt give me any more milk to wash it down, so I would sit there and do it. Thatwas, you know, that was part of my life. I could hardly talk. When I went to first gradeI almost flunked because I couldnt talk. So I learned to talk reasonably well. Finallywhen I was in, I dont know, seventh and eighth grade, some teachers got sometraining and thought that I might have a speech problem. So she asked me to stick mytongue out, and I could hardly stick my tongue out, so I had speech therapyessentially through high school and college. I couldnt stick my tongue out to say theths. So when I was in college in speech therapy, they had me read from the Bible,with the Saint James version with the thous and the thees and the witnesseth, Andthen he saith and all that, so I think that Bible had a lot of spit in it at the end of it. Soanyway, I had and sometimes I still do, when Im tired, I would have to consciouslythink in my mind how to move my lips and my tongue to make the words, so Iwouldnt speak. I would pause in my speech to try to think about how to do thewords, and even after I was a lawyer, I had a hard time with litigation. Somehow thatreally bothered me. So if you notice, I did pause then because I did think about how tosay it. But even when I taught law school at night, doing it socratically, I rememberafter three hours with a break that I couldnt talk anymore. So, you know, maybe sinceI didnt eat that much when I was a kid, maybe that was something to do with mebeing skinny.


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VII. Peter Demos, Barbara Eller.Stories of the Demos cousins. Peter and Joslyns Summer in Ohio. Stories from Turkey.

Genevieve:Well, heres another topic. This is a complete change of topic, but what canyou tell me about any of your cousins, aunts, or uncles on the Demos side? Do youhave any memories of them . . .

Peter:Well, I remember when we were kids we used to send Christmas presents tothem, and I remember, you know, it included Zoes family. And I still have aValentines card that she sent, that she and her sister sent to me when I was sevenyears old, saying Happy Valentines Day.

Genevieve:And so you would send to all of your cousins? You had a lot of cousins!

Peter:Yeah. Well, I remember sending them to, I think, to Costas children. I remembera lot of them that we sent to, including on my mothers side.

Genevieve:Now did you mother integrate well with the Demos family? Did she getalong with all of them?

Peter:Yeah, I think so. But my Uncle Raphael was . . . You know, my mother wastrying to get on the stage, and she danced in some shows and stuff like that, and so myuncle thought she was a floozy, or something like that -- my Uncle Raphael.

Genevieve:Oh dear. But this was before she was married, right? That she was trying toget on the stage.

Peter:Yeah.

Genevieve:So he, well, okay.

Peter:I mean, they didnt think that. You know, they were stuck up, some of them,Uncle Raphael. Uncle Costas and Aunt Irene and Aunt Dora, they were all happy.

Genevieve:They were accepting.

Peter:So anyway.

Genevieve:So what about, now I heard a story that one summer you and my fatherwent and stayed with Costas.

Peter:Thats right.

Genevieve:And sat on the roof or something, and played the piano, and ate a lot offood. Thats the way Ive heard the story.


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Peter:Well, what happened was, there was summer it was very hard to find a jobaround Philadelphia, so we thought since they were building the Ohio turnpike,maybe thered be some jobs out there.

Genevieve:Oh! You wanted to be road workers?

Peter:Well, we wanted a summer job, any summer job.

Genevieve:I wish I could have seen that! Okay. So what happened?

Peter:So we went there, and we looked around for a job. It wasnt getting very far. Butthen we played with Connie and Barbara, and they were, you know, they could hear arecording of a piano piece and reproduce it, a classical thing. So, Stephen was in theMarines at that time, and actually, I was going to go in the Marines with him, take aleave of absence from college. So he decided he would take a leave of absence fromcollege after his first year at Harvard, which would be after my second year, so I

joined the Reserve Unit and signed up for the active service and got my orders to go,but since I hadnt been that long in the Reserves or something, they gave me anotherphysical, and I flunked the physical, so I had to go back to college.

Demos Family circa 1951. Left to right: Noel, Roger, Mama, Papa, Diana. Standing: Joslyn, Peter


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Barbara:You and Stephen were going to go in together.

Peter:Yeah. We were going to go in together.

Barbara:Right, I remember.

Peter:And then, so Stephen wanted to know what the hell had happened to me, that Ididnt show up in Paris Island when I was supposed to down there. And Stephen justbarely got in because he was too short.

Barbara:He spent the summer putting iodine in his milk, just in hope that he couldgrow another quarter inch, because iodine helps you grow. And I was twelve, so Iwasnt paying a whole lot of attention, but he needed that extra quarter inch for theNavy, but the Marines took him.

Peter:The Marines. Yeah, he was in the Marines Air Force Unit.

Genevieve:So, why did you flunk the physical?

Peter:Why did I flunk the physical? Well, they were worried that I was skinny. Theywere worried about my eyesight. And I have this, Im not only skinny, I have thisthing here [points to rib cage]. . . And in the Marines, the backpack that they cross thisway, and they thought it would all fold in. . . .which was highly unlikely! But, youknow, they were worried about my eyes, too.

Barbara:Can you tell the story of our fathers competition in having babies?

Peter:Well, I don't know. Well, I remember that they talked about it.

Barbara:Well, there was a quote from Miltiades the general in Greece, the GreekGeneral Miltiades, who said . . . I think your father had you, and then my father hadDeeDee, is that correct? Or the opposite?

Peter:No Costas had DeeDee, and after that Noel was born. Then Anne was born; thenI was born. And then Joslyn was born.

Barbara:And then Stephen.

Peter:No. Stephen. After me was Stephen.

Barbara:And then it was Joslyn.

Peter:Yeah, then it was Joslyn.

Barbara:And then there was some time.


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Barbara:This is the wrong side of the family, but my mothers father was one of sevenboys, and then the youngest was a girl. They lived near the Ohio River, and when theolder boys got big enough, they would take the youngest two-year-old and throw himin the Ohio River, and he would swim.

Peter:What?

Barbara:Into the Ohio River.

Rosemary:Teach them how to swim that way.

Barbara:They would throw in the two year old, and Im sure their mother never heardabout it. They all learned to swim.

Rosemary:So did thy end up more or less afraid of the water?

Barbara:I have no idea, but I never heard any stories that they were afraid. Its justthey learned to swim in the Ohio River at two, so it sounds like your bicycle story.

Peter:Yeah. So, anyway, Aunt Irenes oldest was Alex. He was in the Army Air Force,then it was called. That was before it was a separate unit. He was I think a tail-gunnerover China sometimes. And there was Tina, who was nothing like her sister. She was .. .

Rosemary:How old was she? Or how much older is she than you?

Peter:Shes several years older than DeeDee. There were twenty cousins. There were

the three of them. Tina used to love to do these teenage dances, you know, where theywould do this. And she had her friend Sally, and they would throw each other overtheir back, you know, over the hip, throw them that way.

Rosemary:Like swing dance, or jitterbug.

Peter:Yeah, jitterbug. Yeah, and she was the one to put on make-up, in high school ---and completely different from her older sister. I dont know if she ever went to college.And she believed in the Ouija board. And she in her older age became . . . she thoughtshe had powers, the healing powers and stuff like that.

Barbara:Whos this?

Rosemary:Tina.

Peter:And she called herself, well, she likes to be called Athena now.

Barbara:We saw her, probably four weeks ago at Connies 50thanniversary. Connieand Bob had a 50thanniversary, and Tina came and Sabra and Anna came, and my five


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siblings were there, four siblings, the five of us, and a bunch of other people, childrenand all. And she was fine. We gave her a ride home.

Peter:There was a huge problem regarding Tina and Alex, you know, in the last fiveyears. Alex became a, like a hermit in his house. I mean, his house became a wreck,unkempt, and they had a very close friend by the name of Papi. I dont know if youve

heard of that name.

Rosemary:Ive heard of that name. How are they . . . ?

Barbara:Papis parents, Papis father was Despotis, Uncle Basil, and he had been takenin by the Demetracopoulos family way back, and he was kind of like a brother to themall. And he married Andromache.

Peter:Yeah. Well, he had gone to become an Orthodox priest, and he was veryquestioning of the orthodoxy.

Rosemary:Papi?

Peter:No, Papis father, Uncle Basil. He became, uh, there was a group of people up inCambridge around the 20s that would discuss philosophy and everything like thattogether, including Uncle Raphael and my father was in graduate school, and Basil,and some others.

Rosemary:What is his last name?

Barbara:Basil Despotis. He was . . . well, go ahead. I dont want to take the story from

you.

Peter:Well, he used to have this, I dont if alone or maybe with others, the HarvardDental School. And so he was a very bright guy, I guess, and he questioned theorthodoxy, and so I dont know what he became. Maybe he became an atheist, anagnostic, a humanist . . . became a dentist.

Barbara:Okay, now Basil was sent to school with Uncle Raphael and Costas inMersovan. And they rode in a cart that they couldnt sit up in. They had to lie downthe whole way to Anatolia, wherever that was, in Turkey.

Rosemary:Why?

Barbara:They couldnt sit up because it was too small, and so they rode lying down.Thats what I heard anyway. And we have a picture of one of the carts. But Basil wassent along to take care of Raphael and Costas and make sure that they would mendtheir socks and keep their clothes neat. Basil was 18; my father was 17; and UncleRaphael was 16. And so Basil did his job dutifully, but Uncle Raphael did not like tocomply, and so he would put on a sock with a hole in one area, and another sock with


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a hole in it another area. So the holes didnt show, and hed get away with that whenhe was there.

Rosemary:And where?

Barbara:This was in Anatolia, in Mersovan [Merzifon], Turkey, and it was a two-day

ride, I believe, to go to school there. And then my father became the teacher of thesixteen-year-olds, for physics. I believe it was physics. And he said that he didnt daresmile at all the first semester. He never smiled, and he always gave quizzes every day.And the kids hated it. But the second semester, he could smile and joke with them,because he had them all under control. And a number of them came up to him andsaid Thank you, for all of those quizzes because they really learned a lot. So that washis teaching style. So anyway, thats where they were when they were 17, 16, and 18.

Peter:Well, Ill tell you the story that I heard from Uncle Raphael, and I dont know ifit was from my father . . . is that they left Constantinople on a boat, and they went

along the south shore of the Black Sea, or the north shore of what is now Turkey. And,you know, it was all Ottoman Empire then. It wasnt Turkey as we know it now. AndMarsovan was up on the Turkish plateau, and where it dropped down to the sea therewerent roads, I mean it just dropped down precipitously. So they would go up, Ithink on donkeys, up there, with armed guards because of the bandits, I understand. Idont think the Turks bothered them. And at night, they would stay on the way up ina cave, you know, with a big wooden door on it, with the donkeys and all got in there.And I guess they had a little door there, or something, in case somebody wanted to goout. But if the bandits came and that little door was open, they couldnt get in becausethey had to . . . Thats the door thats called the eye of the needle. So that school nowis in Thessaloniki, otherwise known as Salonika. So that got moved there when they

had the exchange of populations back in 22 and 23. That was an Americanmissionary school.


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VIII. Barbara Eller.Memories of relatives in Greece, Cyprus, and Turkey.

Barbara:A new chapter of continuing stories about Uncle Raphael. And you heard theone story about his socks, and he was a renegade, and many things. And one of thethings he did was play chess with his siblings, but he was older and Uncle Milto was

the youngest boy, so when Raphael was losing his chess game, (or checkers, whateverthey had), he had collaborated with Miltiades, who was maybe nine years old, andRaphael was maybe fifteen or sixteen, to call him in a hurray (Raphael, Raphael,come), and he would get up in a hurry, and all the pieces would spill. So I dontknow if he knows that Miltiades was the collaborator, so I wanted him to hear that.

Rosemary:Oh, it looks like hes deep in conversation. Can you tell some of your classicstories?

Barbara:Which are the classic stories? Which ones?

Rosemary:What are the classic stories? Theres when you went to Greece and they hada special secret recipe to heal someones burn . . .

Barbara:No. Theres a story that Aunt Irene told me, when she was 90 years old, andwe were in Cambridge. And I had asked her a few questions, and she said that theycould never wear anything but blue as children, because they were ministers childrenand they didnt want to be ostentatious, so all the girls wore just blue for their clothes.And then, she said (and shes been in this country 60 years or more) but she told thatwhen she was six years old, she fell and cut her forehead. And there was a gash. Soshe went to the local nurse lady in the village, and the nurse lady put on a salve, and

her head got better. And when she was older, she said, What was the salve? And thelady didnt want to tell her, but she said, come back, and Ill tell you some othertime. And (wow, theyre dancing over there, Phoebe and Vivian), anyway, so shesaid that the salve was, the nurse lady, who had nothing because they were in innerTurkey, had found a nest of baby mice behind her couch, and she took them, causethey were very young and mixed them with yogurt and squeezed them through hercheesecloth. And that was the salve, which means that I guess it had plasma andyogurt and so on, and she put that on Aunt Irenes head. And it healed and there wasno scar, and she showed that there was no scar, even though she was ninety. But shesays shes been in this country long enough to know that had it happened here itprobably would have involved 15 stitches or so and probably would have scarred.And she was comparing here to there. So in case youre ever stuck with nothing else

Rosemary:stuck with just baby mice . . .

Barbara:Save your baby mice! Anyway, so those two stories, the wearing blue and theother I got from Aunt Irene, oh, 1990 or whenever she died, before she died, obviously.

Rosemary:Did your father ever tell stories about his parents?


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Barbara:A little bit. He said his father always told the children if they were getting introuble or if they did something wrong, he would say, or if they called each othernames, like liars, he would say, I have no child who is a liar, and that would be theend of it. There would be no children who lied. And they were all very truthful. But hewould say it that way. And if you did something wrong, you would say to him or to

the other person, Im sorry, and I wont do it again, and then that would be the endof it. They were very good otherwise. So his father was wise, I guess. He didnt talk anawful lot about his mother, well, except that . . . he was the oldest of nine, and henever knew when there was a new baby coming, except when he walked home fromschool he would see the nursemaid out hanging diapers, and then he would say, oh,a new baby! Of course, that would happen every two years, but it took him a littlewhile to figure that one out. But it was never talked about, never shown, hiddencompletely. But his father, they had the Bible reading every single morning. Theywould read the Bible and have prayers early before their day, and one time they hadno bread and no flour, and they gathered and prayed because they were hungry. Of

course they were chased out of town after town because my grandfather, Stavros, hadbroken away from the Greek Orthodox Church because he didnt think icons wereaccurate. And he became a Protestant in an Orthodox country, and thats notsomething you do in Greece, so they would chase him away with his family. But hehad a small following of people. Anyway, this one particular time they were starving,and at the same time, over in England there was a very rich lady who gave to theEnglish government $100(and this would be in 1900I suppose my father was tenyears old, or eleven)and said to send this to the Greek government and distribute asthey see need, and they knew about my fathers family. So they got some money as ananswer to their prayers, made bread. They took in people from the war. They took inXyrillos and his sister and raised them as their own children. They took in Uncle Basil

and his sister? or just Basil, I dont know, and raised them, as far as I know. And theywere always giving and giving and giving. And when I was there in Greece in 1960and people would meet me and they would say, Oh, your grandparents, they werejust little saints, and they thought they were little saints. So they had a goodreputation, even in 1960. . . . So those were a couple stories.

Rosemary:Thats good.


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IX. Peter Demos, Barbara Demos Eller.Demetracopoulos stories. Joslyn and Peters Ohio summer. Peters summer jobs.

Peter:Their father [Stavros Demetracopoulos] was against a lot of games. He wasagainst them playing bridge and things like that, so when in 1931, when my father andmother went to Greece to visit, the brothers were playing bridge when their parents

werent there. And my mother was supposed to look out, in case they were comingback in. So she said, as a joke, one time, Theyre coming! and everybody put thegame away so fast, hid the cards . . . So they didnt appreciate her joking around withthat.

Barbara:Well, when did ourgrandfather die?

Peter:You know, I dontknow.

Barbara:And when did ourgrandmother die?

Rosemary:Before then. Ithink it was late 20s. I justlooked it up.

Peter:Okay. I know we metsomebody, the person thatwas doing the history of the

families in the Protestantmovements. We met him,and he had met ourgrandfather, in Athens, andapparently he, for a fewyears, was a minister of thebiggest Protestant church inAthens. And it wasinteresting that the storyabout how he became aProtestant was that hewalked into a church --(thisis what he wrote on his littlebio and I think I have a

book with the biosomewhere)-- he wrote thathe walked in there, and he heard this, somebody talking, and it was a veryphilosophical and interesting thing. It was a sermon. And he got really interested in it,and that led him to becoming a Protestant. It was interesting that he said that he

Anna and Stavros Demetracopoulos


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remembered the name of that minister, and it was something Constantinides, which isthe masculine of Constantinidou, which is what his wife was. So I was wondering if hemade an allusion to Constantinides, or if maybe it wasnt Constantinides that wasreally the minister, he just put that in. Apparently, that kind of ending . . .

Barbara:Constantinides, and Constantinidou would be the genetive.

Peter:Yeah.

Barbara:Thats the feminine form.

Peter:Yeah, yeah. All women would be the . . .

Barbara:But Anna was Constantinidou.

Peter:Yeah. Well, see the other story was that he met her because he walked into a

church where they heard singing, or a place where they had singing. And he wantedto meet that cute young woman up there, and thats how they got together. Thats thefamily story. So, but its interesting that the Constantinidou name came up.

Barbara:I did hear that he went to his various friends and said, Marry her! She shouldnot go back to the islands and be lost. Marry her and keep her here. And his friendsaid no. And he went to another friend and said, Somebody should marry her. Whydont you marry her, and keep her here because she shouldnt be lost out in theislands. She needs to stay here. Shes so brilliant or whatever. And he went to . . .

Peter:Well, Cyprus is a really big place . . .

Barbara:Yes, but they didnt want her to go back there to Cyprus. He didnt want herto. And then he went to a third friend and said the same thing. And the third friendsaid, Marry her yourself. So he did. But he was trying to get someone to keep her inthe mainland. And when he asked her to marry him, apparently, it took him so longthat she made her handkerchief into shreds. She twisted it, and twisted it, and twistedit . . .

Peter:When they had the Balkan Wars, and there was that conflict between the Greekarmy and the Turkish army, Anna moved the three younger siblings; they took themto Cyprus.

Rosemary:To her family?

Peter:Yeah, so Miltiades, Evro, and Dorothea all were in Cyprus for a while. And myfather came to the States on a British refugee visa.

Rosemary:Right. He had a British passport.


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our local shopping center and got a star on the receipt, and so he won a basket full ofgroceries, so at least he came home with a big basket full of groceries, plus the bread,or something, that he went down for.

Peter:I dont remember that.

Barbara:But Joslyn would play the piano every morning, or all day maybe, and hewould play the [hums Beethovens Sonata No. 20 in G major Opus 49, 2ndmovement]is that Beethoven? But he only knew that much of it [sings about 10 measures] so thatshow I learned it because he played it all day long every day and got really good at it.And Peter would sit and read the encyclopedia.

Peter:I dont remember that either.

Barbara:And then when my father came home for dinner, he was full of facts, and hewould quiz all of us, do you know this? Do you know that? and we didnt know any

of it because he had been the one reading all day. But my father always liked to talk,and so he would talk late into the night with Peter about all the encyclopedia thingsand then still have to get up a seven and go to work, and Peter and Joslyn would sleepagain until noon. And it went on and on. And so finally Daddy got them a job at theOhio turnpike being flag-boys.

Rosemary:What are flag boys?

Barbara:Well you hold the flag while the cars go this way, and then you let it downand the cars go that way. They were building the Ohio turnpike up in northern Ohio,and so they went up, and they had a job. But they came right back that night, and they

didnt like it.

Peter:Is that right? I thought we couldnt find a job.

Barbara:Thats what I heard.

Rosemary:You dont remember being a flag boy?

Peter:No.

Barbara:Just for a day. Finally they went back to Philadelphia or Media, but they got asfar west as our house and stayed a long time. It was fun getting to know them, playingcards.

Peter:That was the hardest summer to get a job. Every other summer I had jobs. Onesummer I worked on a commuter railroad. There were graded crossings, and it ran offa third rail. It was called the Philadelphia and Western railroad. I was surprised whenI found it, and I went in there they hired me. It turned out that towards the beginningof summer it was a hard labor job, and it was a very well-paying job, and they kind of


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reserved those jobs for the University of Pennsylvania football players, but one ofthem hadnt shown up. So here I get this job as a 130-pound weakling, and Imworking with these hunks, football players. Let me tell you, I put on 20 pounds of justmuscle that summer. And I was carrying, in the heat of the summer . . . We re-tarredthe roof of the place where all the trains came in, there was a great big roof. And Iremember carrying those huge pails of hot tar, up across the roof, and I did it just a

well as the others. So after . . . So that was good. I put on some weight. So after I gotback to college that summer, -- oh I quit in August when I had made just up to $599 orsomething, cause if I made that extra dollar my father couldnt claim me on theincome tax. So we quit early. But when I was back in college in November, I decided,Im going to go down to the gym and work out, so I can keep that muscle. I wentdown there, and I weighed myself, and I had lost all those pounds I had made ofmuscle! So thats what Ive got to do. I got to get back to pumping iron and get someweight on me. But that means you get some weights, and you do an exercise, and thenyou do another exercise . . . I think I used to do about ten different exercises withweights, and then I would do them three times. Thats how you put on the bulk. But

thats a lot of work! You really get exhausted. But I did it in a way that wascardiovascular.

Rosemary:Right. Right.

Peter:So some people do three times. They do weights and they wait a few minutesand they do the same thing again. I would just go from one to the other immediately,and kind of circulate them around. But thats a lot of work. But Ive really gotta do it.

Rosemary:Or get a job working on the road on the railroad, I mean.

Peter:On the railroad.

Rosemary:So did you have jobs when you were in high school as well in the summer?

Peter:Yeah. I dont know when I had my first job. It was either between my junior andsenior year or my senior year and college. I worked one summer at night developingfilm. They had a 24-hour service, so you developed the film at night, so they couldmake the print in the morning, another crew. They were expanding, so there was anawful lot, but since it was alone and tedious, you needed to work really hard to get thehell out of there, even if you knew if you stayed long there, you would get more hoursand more pay, so they hired somebody to help me. It took us just as long with twopeople as one because you had somebody to talk to. And we would take a break andgo and get, at a place that was open all night, get pancakes or a pancake breakfast atfour oclock in the morning or something like that. I had one job working on themaintenance crew for Media. In the summer they hired people. You know I did thingslike go down to these holes in the ground and painting the pumps on the sewer lines.

Rosemary:Is that the kind of thing that Noel and my father would do also in thesummers?


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Peter:I dont know what they did. Noel I remember was the ice cream man onesummer.

Rosemary and Amanda:Oh thats fun.

Peter:I dont remember so much what Joslyn did. But I think for several summers . . .oh! When I was in high school, Noel got a job putting up aerials, and I would help himand get paid. You know television was just coming out And I remember Noel waskind of fearless. He had this long metal ladder that when you went up was really kindof swingy like that. [waves hand] And I remember one time it didnt reach beyondthe eaves, and it reached up to the roof so that the eaves came out like this[demonstrating with hand reaching over the top of a ladder] so Noel reached up andfelt that it was really firm up there. So he just reached up, swung out, and got up onthe roof.

Rosemary:Oh. That sounds dangerous.

Peter:And then I went up the . . . I was a little bit more scared of heights. So when Iwent up there with the tools and the stuff like that, with the ladder going back andforth when you had only one

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