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Is chopping bolts OK?

2011-05-19 00:00:00

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T he doors - Cadare se from RAGNI DI LECCO on Vime o.

David Bacci

2011-05-19 23:26:51

Hell yeah! especially if you own a Hattori Hanzo!

DWF

2011-05-20 00:07:33

Yes!

Use r De act ivat e d

2011-05-20 05:17:52

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that it is always okay to chop bolts... what if someone choppedBiographie? Not cool.However, I think this route definitely falls into the category of good to chop: a beautiful andprotectable crack. There is no question that this route should not have bolts.

Andre w Haydawg

2011-05-20 06:23:06

No question the bolts should never have been put in.

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Once they are put in, however, chopping them doesn't achieve much. The damage done to the rock is still there, thebolt doesn't go away. It is just not useful.

Sport c limbers can no longer use the route, which I suppose one could argue is the "natural/appropriate state" and agood thing.

It could also be considered a selfish / self-righteous move once the damage was already done. Aka "this is for mystyle only, I am right by definition and without debate, and I have the right to deny access to others".

Worst case scenario, bo lters come back and bolt it again. Now you've got twice the metal, not much of anachievement.

Being in the northeast USA, I have seen chopping of bo lts, and rebolting of chopped routes. A lot of the examples, askaelen says, are not as cut and dry as this. I'd rather these guys went and talked to the bolter, and tried to developsome regional consensus, hell maybe prevent him/her from bolting more trad lines, rather than chop and walk away.

But eh, maybe they did.

Silvan Schüpbach

2011-05-20 10:53:10

Actually I`m working on a "greenpoint charta" which is caring about this question. So far, in conclus ion, I figured outthe fo llowing points:

A bolted route has to be c limbed in a proper style (Redpoint, not pinkpoint) without us ing the bolts. That is thegreenpoint ascent

The greenpoint ascent has to be graded for two objectifs: the evidence of the trad line (the sporty value) and thequality and quantity of the placements. For example the doors is a stellar line which has only perfect placements (i`veclimbed it last week). so it has a a very good rate for being de-bolted. an other example is Kammerlanders "prinzipHoffnung" which has a very very high evidence but, the placements are rather poor, so the rate is maybe lower thanfor the doors.

On the other hand, there is a social aspect, that the person that has put the bolts should be informed about theprocess for deciding chopping the bolts. And, the bolts should be paied back to the opener!

There are a lot of c lass ic crack routes that has been bolted after the trad first ascent, so it should be possible to dothe opposite (chopping bolts). But mainly we should go on looking for new lines and ascent it on trad.

Jonas Wiklund

2011-05-20 11:18:01

Always

Tut t ologo

2011-05-20 16:38:20

NO

Pe dro St abile

2011-05-20 16:40:16

I´m in favor of chopping bolts but there is one thing... always respect the person who put up the route, talk to themfirst... this is how we do it here in Brasil. If not, they can just re-bolt it... twice the damage... and then what? Chop, bo lt,

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first... this is how we do it here in Brasil. If not, they can just re-bolt it... twice the damage... and then what? Chop, bo lt,chop, bo lt...........

Alan Hills

2011-05-20 17:17:06

Why chop the bolts? The mountain is already scarred! Now, instead of some useful, rusting metal bits on the wall,there are some useless, rusting metal studs stuck in holes all the way up the c limb.Chopping the bolts is just a selfish elitist act. You can prance around on your high horse all day trying to justify it butall that has been achieved is that now only c limbers with trad gear and experience can enjoy the route (Toprope yousay? Please, toproping is for c limbing gyms) A better so lution is to not bo lt the route in the first place, but once it is bo lted the damage can't be "undone".

Marc Ge rmani

2011-05-20 17:33:45

some people bolt anything... like the ugliest routes ever... it sucks...

so i think that chopping is sometimes as bad as bolting...

but this video is about bo lting a traditional line... and i believe it ruins the virgin state of the rock once it's bo lted...

Jack Dixon

2011-05-20 19:29:44

You know, someone like Alex Honnold could probably make "trad" leads of virtually every sport route out there, thatmost 8a.nu members could only dream of do ing; even with bolts. What if someone like that decided to do such, andstart chopping every route they do in such fashion? Would that be a legit practice? Just po inting this out as I agreethat this is mostly an "elitists" practice; that being: chopping bolted lines after ascending them on gear! I'm not go ingto say that I think that this route should have been bolted; perhaps it shouldn't have, but this is a s lippery s lope andthe route could have been led "trad" yet left for other, not so bold c limbers to enjoy!? Where should the "line" on thispractice be drawn? Also I noticed that the anchors were not shown on the vid and I sorta assume that the bolts therewere left in for convenience of retrieving the gear? Not 100% pure, anyway, if so?? And I wonder if there was top-rope rehersal, by the leader in the video, off o f the bolts or anchors, prior to this video ascent? That would nullify anyjustification for retro chopping, in my book!!

Brian Kimball

2011-05-20 20:47:10

To me it is VERY SIMPLE this route is a crack c limb and there is NO ARGUMENT EVER that is should have been bolted.IF you do not chop an obvious crack c limb such as The Doors then it says to everybody that it is OK to s ink boltsinto ALL or ANY crack c limb that you would like to lead as a Sport Climb for whatever reason. It is VERY IMPORTANTthat this route and others like it are chopped and it has NOTHING~NOTHING to do with being elitist at all. This route isa SPLITTER CRACK CLIMB if you say it is "OK" to bo lt this route then your are saying it is "OK" to bo lt every 5.10 handcrack in Yosemite National Park too and that would be beyond ridicules. Of course the anchors are bolts what elsewould they be a piton anchor which would pin scar the crack forever with a bright multi-co lored webbing anchor? I amsure he lead or aided his way up the route and rehearsed the route on top rope-when the route had bolts "SportClimbers" used that same top rope rehearsal method. The point here is that to have a line of bo lts go ing up everyobvious splitter crack c limb in all o f Indian Creek, Yosemite and the rest of the World would be SIMPLY ridicules,would it not?????

Brian Kimball

2011-05-20 21:03:07

No just because your Alex Honnold and you lead a Sport Climb on gear does not mean that you should chop the

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No just because your Alex Honnold and you lead a Sport Climb on gear does not mean that you should chop thebolts and make it a traditionally protected c limb. That is a no brainer as well but SERIOUSLY some people shoulds imply not be allowed to own a drill PERIOD~ESPECIALLY the JERK that bo lted this route The Doors how un-attractivewould it be to see bolt hangers and quick draws hanging right next to every beautiful crack c limbing test piece. The line and the rock dictate weather or not something is to be a "TRAD Climb" or a "Sport Climb" if you can not seethat this route is a gear protected crack c limb and you own a drill you ought to be locked up until you get your headscrewed on straight, no?If you are not up to the challenge of leading this route on BOMBER GEAR then maybe you should consider top ropingit...if that is not cool enough for you then maybe you need to grow a pair sack up and learn to use removableprotection. I am sorry but this is a serious offense in our sport today and it needs to be taken seriously too manypeople think it is "OK" to just go s inking bolts where ever they please.Should we build Oxygen Bars at all o f the High Camps on everyone of the Worlds 8,000 meter peaks? If plac ing gearon that pitch is to much for you than pick a different sport or recreational hobby

Je ns Larsse n

2011-05-20 22:24:03

1. If the route is totally safe, you should first talk the the guy who bolted it and say you want to remove them.2. If the equipper agrees that it is totally safe, it can be chopped.3. If the equipper does not agree that it is totally safe, the guy who want to remove them should show that it is safeto take falls anywhere.

Edit: I should add that I am speaking of cracks on trad crags. Many bolted 6a's are totally safe but if they are notcracks and located in sport crags I do not think you should chop the bolts.

Jason Se rviss

2011-05-20 22:37:12

Should have never been bolted in the first place! Good job!

Brian Kimball

2011-05-20 22:52:54

This is go ing to sound risky but c limbing is a dangerous risky sport. I do not think safety should be the main concernin weather or not it is appropriate to bo lt crack c limbs. Look at the 80' run out on the Monster OW or the Hollow Flakepitches on El Capitan, those pitches are not safe at all but does that mean we ought too s ink bolts in every ten feet??? You would loose so much...the spirit o f c limbing, the spirit o f adventure and risk vs. reward. Another great example of a c lass ic crack c limbing test piece being bolted would be the 130' 5.14a R/X China Doll inBoulder Canyon, CO. I would love to see those bolts get chopped but a few people would be really upset so becauseof those few people all o f the majority have to live with the ugly bo lts on this immaculate perfectly protect-able crackclimbing masterpiece. Luckily the top half and crux of the route were never bo lted as it was to difficult to free c limb atthe time the lower 5.13c section was bolted. The entire route is far from "safe" with its multiple stout V9 cruxes 20'above small brass nuts but if anyone bolted the extension I would have to chop it for sure. Why? Well we establishedit and it has been freed on top rope and freed on gear placed on lead. Yes it is dangerous but that is part of whatmakes it one of the best 5.14 crack c limbing test pieces in the entire World if you bolt it then it will just be anotherSport Crack. The bolts also ruined a CLASSIC A3 or C2 in this China Doll. Again if it is to risky for you then you areforced to top rope it or not c limb it at all same goes with the big Off-Width cracks on El Cap.

jaap

2011-05-21 01:19:53

@ Brian: The routes you talk about are all in areas where trad c limbing is pretty much the standard. Routes are only

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@ Brian: The routes you talk about are all in areas where trad c limbing is pretty much the standard. Routes are onlybolted if there is no other way to protect them...well, that's how it is supposed to be... or am I wrong?What if this route is in an area where there are no other cracks...everything else is bo lted. That's what the guy in themovy says I think. I guess trad c limbing is something that is not done in that area. In that case it seems logical thatthe line is bo lted. Nobody has the proper gear because it's basically useless except for that one crack. All the otherroutes are bolted, so the "scars" in the rock are already there. In that case it seems selfish to just chop the bolts andmake it a "tradclimbers only". That's how I understand the s ituation anyway. I don't know the actual area or theroute...so maybe I'm completely wrong?!?

Jan Pålsgård

2011-05-21 06:14:04

Unfortunatelywe seem to live in a divided world where there are sportc limbers andtradclimbers. The tradclimbers also c limb sport while the sportc limbers don`tc limb trad. A contributing factor to this divis ion for me seem to be that areasare defined as sport-areas or as trad-areas. We get a c limbing-apartheid.

The sport-areasfoster a mentality where you don´t look for protectable trad-c limbs. You bolteverything, and so you transform an area or a crag that initially had thepotential to be a rich mixture of both sport and trad into a sport monoculturewhere people don´t learn trad, don´t strive toward c lean c limbing and cannoteven see a beautiful protectable crack like The Doors as something to leaveboltfree. (By the way, what was the reaction in the local community tochopping?)

At someplaces there are even people who are pushing this divis ion. TheGranite-grotto in Bohuslän, Sweden is such a place. Here there are perhaps 10routes between 6a and 8b++ that could be protected with natural gear. Some witha highball start…but still. There are 30+ sportroutes if you count extensionsand permutations. As things stand there are now only two naturally protectedroutes left, one at 6c that is c limbed 1-2 times a year, while the other route whichwas led with a preplaced ballnut 5 years ago at 7c has not been repeated onthe sharp end (but is topropeable and has been toproped). This, I believe, becausenot even tradclimbers bring gear to a “sportcrag”.The sportc limbers naturally think that these tradclimbs are a waste … but arethey really? Does a c limb only get its "value" from the French grade and its number of ascents?Do some routes actually increase in value by getting few ascents?

Here wecome naturally to another contributing factor. I believe that the 1-dimensionalFrench gradingsystem strips adventure c limbs of their value as an experience.The British system is not perfect, but it tries hard to take the mental factorinto account. Many sportc limbers define themselves by their redpoint grade.

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into account. Many sportc limbers define themselves by their redpoint grade.They don´t want to risk failure on a lower grade with a high E-factor, where Estands for the experience.

Finally Ithink that the misnomer “trad-“ contributes negativally to the perceived valueof tradclimbing. Trad is actually anything but traditional. It has evolved evenmore than sportc limbing due to training, gear and sportc limbing fitness. Tradas it is defined today has never before existed. If possible I would like to have changed the name to“adventureclimbing”or something else that po ints to its additional dimensions.

So insteadof eth(n)ic c leansing I would like to see us ec lectic tradclimbers mingle withthe sportc limbers at the same areas – where that is possible. Can´t be a totally bad thing, can it?

Je ns Larsse n

2011-05-21 08:59:41

In a debate like this it could be mention that maybe half o f the route in Santa Linya would be able to do on trad gear.

What I mean with this is that you can not just chop down bolts at Santa Linya just because it is doable at trad gear.Santa Linya is a sport crag and I do not see any point of having trad routes in such crags as long as they are notperfect and totally safe cracks.

If you had put up a trad route in Santa Linya nobody would have repeated it and I consider such an act a very selfishact just to get the name in the guide book.

gianluca

2011-05-21 11:08:09

been once in cadarese before the bolt wars. that crag is 99% crack c limbing where most routes can be safely done on trad gear, no doubts around this.

first some routes have been bolted and that made the crag known.then new routes have been opened as trad routes.then the trad routes ' first ascentionists looked back at the bolted routes and probably thought "why are they bolted?"and started a bolt war.

I guess one of the first bo lt-chopped route was a nice 6c+ but i'm not sure.

To understand why it has been bolted in the first place one should also know that -there's no trad c limbing in northern italy and most c limbers are unlikely to own a full 00-4 cam rack. This was evenmore true some years ago.-the routes are long (25 meters?), the cracks are very parallel-s ided and as a sport c limber i wouldn't show upwithout having at least some doubles. Chocks are probably useless.

Since i finally own a full rack and anyway i now live far from the crag, i find it nice that the bolt chopping action isindependent of the level of the route.

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independent of the level of the route.

I also think that given the italian s ituation, i think that the few really easy routes (less than 6a-b?) should be left in a"trad school" state to encourage beginners to try the style...ie requiring gear to be safely c limbed but doable with asmall and cheap rack. (maybe intermediate lower-offs every 15 meters and bolts on cracks wider than fist s ize couldbe a so lution?)

f ridolin se nt

2011-05-21 14:14:41

in western germany is a basalt c limbing area named ettringen. the rock is suitable both for trad and sportc limbing. thelocal po licy has been to leave it to the first-ascender...he decides wether bo lts are placed or not, inc luding theunwritten rule that if it is possible to protect a line with gear then the first-ascender SHOULD refrain from bolting thesesections. SHOULD...not MUST...this actually works out very good. there hasn't been anything even c lose to a "bolt-war". at least not that i know of. in result this had led to an area with over 1000 routes that offers a very big variety of c limbing style, from super-protected bolt-ladders on featureless pillars to easy-to-protect cracks and horrible psycho-testpieces up to 5.13R/X...AND you even come across bolted cracks that could have been easily led on good gear.while this might be an eye-sore in some cases and i wish they hadn't been bolted i personally did appreciate this a lot,when i started trad-c limbing a while ago. freeing many easy cracks that had bolts and not us ing them was a perfect"safer" start into trad-c limbing, learning to handle the gear, etc.although i do think that it it perfectly good having c lass ic c limbing areas where bolts are not used such as indiancreek, yosemite or the routes on british gritstone i do think that c limbing has evolved and i prefer a more to lerant andless narrow-minded approach when developing new areas.

Mat s Engquist

2011-05-21 20:20:39

@Jan Pålsgård:

Why are you always trying to establish a conflict between "trad c limbers" and "sport c limbers"? What are your goals?How do you benefit from such a conflict? Is it just "funny" to "debate"? I don't get it...

Why don't you - if you had been honest you would - invite these "idiotic" sport c limbers and teach them about thebeauty of "real" c limbing. You have loads of opportunities to do that and to end this stupid conflict. Do you want that?

Trust me - no matter what you think I will never place one s ingle bo lt - neither will I chop one...

I know "my" kids would benefit from being tought by a master...

Crist iT

2011-05-21 23:42:28

hey somebody should correct me if i understand wrong....but in Yosemite (US) it is the legal law that say it isforbinden to bolt !! isn't it ? of course i am thinking that this was done after c limbers pushed it to be so....

Mure san Crist ian

2011-05-23 13:06:07

Trad c limbing also leaves scars on the rock, and in time it is even possible to damage the crack so as to beimpossible to place the belayers. So I think it's arguable which c limbing manner of rocks are "imoral". Anyway,chopping bolts without the permiss ion of the one who oppened the route is not OK.

david

2011-05-23 13:34:59

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Choppingbolts seems like a rather fundamentalist way of thinking; you impose yourpersonal ethics on all others. There is no natural law that states that bo ltingis bad, it's just ethics. and it's just YOUR ethics, not any kind of global,universal ethics, a large group of people have different ethics.

I think there are only two possibilities where you are allowed to chop bolts, ademocratic decis ion of all people concerned with this act, or if the rockstands on your own land. in all other cases: these bolts don't harm you so you have noright to but your own interests over the interests of others!

some peopleon this planet think that god blablabla... I don't think that this gives themthe right to take actions against others, in princ ipal it's just the same

by the way, if there is a conflict, it's very one s ided, I don't think that any sports c limber cares about a trad c limbertradclimbing or sportc limbing or c limbing with a green hat ... but obviously trad c limbers have a problem with sportc limbers, as they do it the "wrong" way, well I don't see any right or wrong, it's just a matter of your personal flavor;

Mat s Engquist

2011-05-24 07:08:42

Perhaps it is just a tiny minority of all c limbers who actually care but the "ethics" argument is quite commonly usedto tell other c limbers just that - that they are not do ing it the right way.

It is allmost religious, and I actually though c limbing was a sport - not a religion, and the "ethics" is often used in anextremely unetical way.

If you highlight this in a discussion it get's even worse - then you are not only do ing "it" the wrong way (whatever "it"is) - then there is no limit to how ignorant you will be regarded, s ince you obviously do not understand the "rightway" - just like in any unforgiving religion.

Ethical? Hell no..

In addition, the people talking about the only right way to do things are not at all interested in teaching others aboutthis way - thay are only extremely fast to tell them they are wrong...

Mr Lahe y

2011-05-24 11:56:21

It's selfish and disrespectful to totally disregard other peoples preferences like that.

Jan Pålsgård

2011-05-24 13:12:40

This is obviously an important discussion. Some people seem to believe that it is about the rules of the game. But

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This is obviously an important discussion. Some people seem to believe that it is about the rules of the game. Butthe rules of the game concerns what constitutes an on s ight, a red point etc. Questions like those are up to theplayers of the different games to decide.

To bolt or not is a completely different question.

The Door is two different routes with or without the bolts. The moves are to a certain degree the same, but withoutthe bolts the experience is completely different. For tradclimbers the experience is really important. At least asimportant as the moves. There are a finite number of lines like The Door. Is it really up to one guy with a Hilti todecide how to manage this resource?

Ethics concerns many things, one of which is how to share a finite resource. There is seldom one good so lution thatsatis fies everyone, so it´s important to talk and try to agree on a compromise. This compromise can inc lude rulesfor how to manage the crags in an area. Of course, these rules does not constitute The Law, but they are the bestthing we c limbers can achieve when based on mutual respect. It is in order to achieve this mutual respect that Iargue for sportc limbers and tradclimbers to mingle at crags that are not trad and not sport, but have a little of both.

Mats Engqvist seems to be whining about conflicts, lack of respect, teaching, ... ? For me one of the best things andat the same time most frustrating things with c limbing and c limbers is the high degree of anarchy. In face of thecharming and problematic anarchy my only so lution to most of the conflicts is to go out and mingle. Mingling fostersmutual respect - there are always things to learn from each other.

And then we must talk ... like this perhaps?

david

2011-05-24 15:45:16

Is itpossible to trad c limb "The Door" s imply without us ing the bolts? Ifyes, what would be a plausible reason for chopping them? If you just ignorethe bolts and place your own gear, great … you have all the experience, if youwant to use the bolts, great … use them and find your own experience … noproblem … no reason to chop bolts

Fe rnando Albe rt i

2011-05-24 16:29:40

Interesting discussion, happy about the level (apart from a few personal attacks)

This is something i really did not know where i stood as i never tradclimbed in my life and do not know the ethics ofthat disc ipline and did not want to blabber something s illy. But after reading these opinions I must say that i agreewith the point of view that it does depend on the crag/c limbing area..

Cheers!

Jan Pålsgård

2011-05-24 16:30:50

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@David Tradclimb "The Door" with bolts in place ... wouldn´t that be somewhat like so lo ing a route with harness, ropeand rack ... but not actually us ing it. Same experience? Hardly.On the other hand, what about toproping the boltfreevers ion? Would that be too unmanly for the sportc limbers?

Brian Kimball

2011-05-24 21:50:52

Jan has very good points there are SO VERY FEW pure splitter crack c limbs of this nature on our planet and if you sayit is OK to bolt this then someone will go and bolt the beautiful Salathe Headwall or some other c lass ic pure splittersand say "well we are sport c limbers that want to c limb a crack on bolts" which is WAY MORE SELFISH than choppingthe bolts PERIOD why cant you people see this DAMMMITTT!!! Sport Climbs are EVERYWHERE there is like a ratio of99.9 to 0.001 SO MANY THINGS for Sport Climbers to c limb on BOLTS EVERYWHERE!!! BUT there are only a VERY,VERY FEW pure hard crack c limbing test-pieces like The Doors and TAINTS its PURITY by having to stand at the baseof SUCH A BEAUTIFUL NATURAL LINE and see the big huge bolt hangers RIGHT NEXT to a PERFECT #1 CAM placementUNACCEPTABLE by World Climbing Standards to have those bolts there and the REAL SELFISH ACT here was to bolt the1 in 1,000,000 crack c limb 1 in 1,000,000 for every 1-MILLION SPORT CLIMBS there is ONE, ONE SPLITTER like this andto BOLT IT because you are too selfish to call a top rope ascent "good enough" LEAVING the crack in its naturalBEAUTY un-marred and un-scared by bolt hangers for the ever growing number of people who enjoy the purity andchallenge of leading such a line. YOU SAY "just ignore the bolts right next to the perfect hand jam crack" I say HOWthey are ugly and right in my face like a BLOB of YELLOW paint on PICASSO MASTERPIECE....I say "WHY NOT TOP ROPEand leave these 1 in 1,000,000 materpiece creations FREE of ugly bo lt hangers don't be a selfish SportClimber......Personally I have LEAD many bolted Sport Climbs on natural protection and you do not see me selfishlychopping those bolts because they are not "pure splitter crack c limbs" SO PLEASE DO NOT SELFISHLY BOLT PURESPLITTER CRACK CLIMBS!!!

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