investment disputesicsidfiles.worldbank.org/icsid/icsidblobs/onlineawards/c...page | 719 b&b...
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B&B Reporters 001 202-544-1903
INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR THE SETTLEMENT OF
INVESTMENT DISPUTES
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
In the Matter of Arbitration :
Between: :
:
GABRIEL RESOURCES LTD. and GABRIEL :
RESOURCES (JERSEY) LTD., :
: Case No.
Claimants, : ARB/15/31
:
and :
:
ROMANIA, :
:
Respondent. :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Volume 3
HEARING ON THE MERITS
Wednesday, December 4, 2019
The World Bank Group
1225 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
C Building
Conference Room C3-150
Washington, D.C.
The hearing in the above-entitled matter came on
at 9:00 a.m. before:
PROF. PIERRE TERCIER, President of the Tribunal
DR. HORACIO A. GRIGERA NAÓN, Co-Arbitrator
PROF. ZACHARY DOUGLAS, Co-Arbitrator
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ALSO PRESENT:
MS. SARA MARZAL YETANO
Secretary to the Tribunal
MS. MARIA ATHANASIOU
Tribunal Assistant
Court Reporters:
MR. DAVID A. KASDAN
MS. MARGIE DAUSTER
Registered Diplomate Reporters (RDR)
Certified Realtime Reporters (CRR)
B&B Reporters
529 14th Street, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20003
Interpreters:
MS. MARLIENA FILIP
MS. ALEXANDRA IULIANA MLADEN
MS. ALEXANDRA DOBRIN
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ALSO PRESENT:
Attending on behalf of the Claimants:
MS. ABBY COHEN SMUTNY
MR. DARRYL LEW
MR. BRODY GREENWALD
MR. PETR POLÁŠEK
MR. HANSEL PHAM
MR. FRANCIS VASQUEZ JR.
MR. ANDREI POPOVICI
MS. GABRIELA LOPEZ
MR. FRANCIS LEVESQUE
MR. WILLIAM STROUPE
MS. NATALIA TCHOUKLEVA
MR. JACOB TRUMM
MS. DARA BROWN
MS. ALYSSA HOWARD
White & Case, LLP
701 13th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
United States of America
MR. FLORENTIN TUCA
MS. IDA-LEVANA ZIGMUND
MS. ANCA DIANA PUSCASU
MS. OANA-MIRUNA URECHE
MS. RUXANDRA NIŢĂ MS. ANGELICA-IULIANA HOGAŞ-PINTILIE MR. CORNEL POPA (via video for Prof. Birsan)
Ţuca Zbârcea & Asociaţ ii Sos. Nicolae Titulescu nr. 4-8
America House, Aripa de Vest, et. 8
Sector 1, 011141, Bucuresti
Romania
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APPEARANCES:
Represent Gabriel Resources Ltd.:
MR. SIMON LUSTY
MR. RICHARD BROWN
MR. DANIEL KOCHAV
MS. RUTH TEITELBAUM
Representing Roş ia Montană Gold Corporation:
MR. MIHAI BOTEA
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APPEARANCES: (Continued)
Attending on behalf of the Respondent:
DR. VEIJO HEISKANEN
MR. MATTHIAS SCHERER
MS. NORADÈLE RADJAI
MS. LORRAINE de GERMINY
MR. CHRISTOPHE GUIBERT de BRUET
MR. DAVID BONIFACIO
MR. BAPTISTE RIGAUDEAU
MS. EMILIE McCONAUGHEY
MS. NICOLE CHALIKOPOULOU
MR. PATRICIO GRANE
MS. STELA NEGRAN
Lalive
35, rue de la Mairie
CH - 1207 Geneva
Switzerland
DR. CRENGUŢA LEAUA MS. ANDREEA SIMULESCU
MS. MIHAELA MARAVELA
MS. LILIANA DEACONESCU
MS. ANDREEA PIŢURCĂ MS. ANDRA SOARE FILATOV
Leaua Damcali Deaconu Paunescu
10 Zborului Street, sector 3
030595, Bucharest
Romania
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C O N T E N T S
PAGE
PRELIMINARY MATTERS.................................719
WITNESSES:
DRAGOS TANASE
Direct examination by Mr. Greenwald...............728
Cross-examination by Dr. Heiskanen................769
by Ms. Radjai...................818
Redirect examination by Mr. Greenwald............1045
Questions from the Tribunal......................1049
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P R O C E E D I N G S 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, ladies and 2
gentlemen. It is my honor to open the third day of 3
the Hearing, First Session of the Hearing in the ICSID 4
Arbitration Case 15/31 between Gabriel Resources 5
Limited and Gabriel Resources (Jersey) Limited versus 6
Romania. I hope you had a pleasant evening, and 7
again, for the third time, I express that you will 8
have a very serene and constructive day. 9
I have a few points before starting with the 10
examination of Mr. Tănase. First point, I would like 11
again to thank our Court Reporters for the Transcripts 12
that they have prepared and that we have received. 13
I would like also to note receipt of the list 14
of issues and rebuttal document prepared by Claimants. 15
You have received it. I would like to thank both 16
Parties for having sent the electronic version of 17
their Opening Statements. 18
I would like to thank Sara for having made 19
the report of the time used and the time remaining; 20
used by Claimants, five hours 31 minutes; by 21
Respondent, six hours 13 minutes; and by the Arbitral 22
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Tribunal, one hour and five minutes. 1
We have received Claimants' letter concerning 2
the request to add Mr. Pierre Amariglio as a 3
participant. 4
Have you a comment on your side, Respondent? 5
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes. 6
If he is a member of Gabriel's Board or an 7
employee of Gabriel, we have no objection, but if he 8
is merely a shareholder of the Company, we do have an 9
objection. 10
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Respondent--Claimants? 11
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: He is an employee of a 12
shareholder. 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. In that case, no 14
objection. 15
DR. HEISKANEN: Then we have an objection. 16
If he's an employee of the Shareholder, he's not an 17
employee of Gabriel. Gabriel is the Party to this 18
arbitration, not Tenor Capital. This is now a 19
confidential hearing, as we have agreed, and he cannot 20
be considered a party representative. 21
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Claimants? 22
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MS. COHEN SMUTNY: My understanding is that 1
there are no formal rules about who can be a party 2
representative, and if the Party designates a person 3
to be its representative, that that's--that's 4
acceptable. 5
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Respondent? 6
DR. HEISKANEN: We understand that he has 7
already identified himself for purposes of this 8
Hearing as a representative or somebody who is 9
associated with Tenor Capital when he signed up for 10
the Hearing. 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. 12
(Tribunal conferring.) 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. We have considered 14
both Parties' argument. 15
This Hearing is a confidential hearing. 16
Indeed, we do not see reasons for Mr. Amariglio to be 17
in the room, so we would like him to leave. It's not 18
that we have distrust, but it is just for application 19
of the rule. He's not here. Okay, good. 20
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: He's not in the room. We 21
understood that that was dependent upon your decision, 22
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so that's fine. 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay, good. That's fine. 2
Next point for me, you remember that I asked 3
you whether Ms. Mocanu and Ms. Şerban could possibly 4
be present already this week? 5
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes, Ms. Şerban will be 6
available Friday. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, I'll ask our 8
Secretary to see how she could now prepare a new 9
updated version of the program so that we can discuss 10
it. 11
And you remember also that we still have one 12
issue for us to decide; it is the request for the 13
European Commission that you have received now. 14
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: Yes. I confirm 15
that I received a letter late yesterday, and I have 16
not been able to transmit it yet. 17
Sorry. 18
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I'm not worried. 19
It will come. It is not urgent, but in any case, once 20
we have received it, we would be happy to take a few 21
minutes to have your last argument concerning their 22
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participation so that the Tribunal could decide. We 1
have informed the EC that we would decide this week, 2
okay? 3
Good. I have nothing else. 4
On your side, have you another point you 5
would like to raise? 6
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: Nothing further. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. On your side? 8
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes, simply to indicate that 9
there is a new person on the Respondent's side 10
attending the Hearing, Professor Dragoș , legal expert 11
of the Respondent. And we also have Mr. Găman and 12
Mr. Ariton attending because the Claimants have 13
indicated that Mr. Tănase will be providing rebuttal 14
evidence during the direct examination on their 15
evidence. 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 17
You remind me politely that I should have 18
started with this, so we take note of the new 19
attendees. 20
And on your side, no new--nobody joined the 21
club? 22
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MS. COHEN SMUTNY: No, no. 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. In that case, we 2
may proceed. 3
DRAGOS TĂNASE, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS, CALLED 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, Mr. Tănase. 5
I don't know how to spell your name. I do my best. 6
How would you? 7
THE WITNESS: Good morning. I think you are 8
pronouncing it fine. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay, fine. Good. You 10
know that you will be heard in this procedure as a 11
witness. You had already had opportunity to do that. 12
I would like to introduce the Members of the Arbitral 13
Tribunal that you already know. On my left-hand side, 14
Professor Horatio Grigera Naón, and on my right-hand 15
side, Professor Zachary Douglas. My name is Pierre 16
Tercier; I’m new, you know that because I've replaced 17
Ms. Teresa Cheng. You know the Secretary of the 18
Tribunal, and on her left side is the Assistant to the 19
Tribunal, Ms. Maria Athanasiou. 20
You will be heard as a witness. May I ask 21
you to read the Declaration, yes, that you have in 22
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front of you. 1
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my 2
honor and conscience that I shall speak the truth, the 3
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good. 5
Just a few words before starting. You know 6
already how it will go. I will come to it in a 7
moment. There will first be direct examination. It 8
is--I will again explain; it goes a little bit further 9
than what is usual; then you have the 10
cross-examination, and then the redirect, and the 11
Arbitral Tribunal have the right at any time to ask 12
you questions. 13
You have prepared for these proceedings three 14
Witness Statements. The first that was for the first 15
phase and the Provisional Measures was dated 28th of 16
July 2016; the second for this on the merits was the 17
30th of June 2017; and the third, for the 2nd of 18
November 2018. Have you these documents before you? 19
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have the documents in 20
front of me. 21
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Can you confirm 22
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the content of these Witness Statements, or do you 1
wish to make amendments? 2
THE WITNESS: I confirm the content of the 3
Witness Statements. I have no amendments to make at 4
this point. 5
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. So, you know that 6
this is your testimony. You know the procedure. 7
I said a moment ago that the direct will be a 8
little bit special because, for reasons that were 9
connected to the way the documents have been 10
submitted, it has been agreed that the counsel for 11
Claimants have the right to ask you also questions of 12
documents that have been submitted very recently, 13
so-called "rebuttal documents." So, that will be the 14
first part. Then again, as I said, cross and 15
redirect. 16
For the benefit of the Transcript, I invite 17
you first to answer concisely to the questions, and 18
secondly to avoid to speak/interrupt the speaker, in 19
order to avoid overlap, possible overlapping of 20
statements, okay? 21
THE WITNESS: Okay. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. 1
THE WITNESS: I understand. 2
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you in just a few 3
words tell us what was your involvement in this case 4
when you joined Gabriel and then what was your 5
position very shortly, just in order to refresh our 6
memory; everything in your statement we know that, but 7
just in order to introduce yourself. 8
THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9
So, I'm Romanian. I joined the Project in 10
2008 as Vice President of Finance, and then in a few 11
months I became the General Manager of Rosia Montana 12
Gold Corporation in Romania. 13
I reported at the time to Gabriel Resources 14
CEO Alan Hill. 15
Then I spent my last, basically from 2008 to 16
2018 I was General Manager as of RMGC. 17
In 2018, in August, I was appointed as CEO of 18
Gabriel Resources. 19
And since August 2018, I have a double 20
capacity, CEO of Gabriel Resources and General Manager 21
of Rosia Montana Gold Corporation. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Very good. 1
Okay. No question from my co-Arbitrators, in 2
the benefit of time, I give the floor to counsel for 3
Claimants. 4
MR. GREENWALD: Thank you, Mr. President. 5
DIRECT EXAMINATION 6
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 5
In that case, on Respondent's side, who will 6
lead the cross-examination? 7
DR. HEISKANEN: Mr. President, I will start, 8
and then Ms. Radjai will have a few questions. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. 10
DR. HEISKANEN: But let's make the hard copy 11
binders available to Mr. Tanase first. 12
MR. GREENWALD: And we will wait for 13
Mr. Ariton, too, and Mr. Găman. 14
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes. 15
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. 16
(Pause.) 17
MR. GREENWALD: Do you have a copy for us? 18
(Comment off microphone.) 19
DR. HEISKANEN: The Tribunal's ruling on this 20
issue, the hard copy, as you will recall, will be made 21
available to this Witness, and both the Tribunal and 22
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counsel on the other side will be relying on the 1
electronic documents. This is simply a matter of 2
logistics. The service provider we have here in 3
Washington, D.C. is not simply able to provide at 4
short notice, or at reasonable notice, this form of 5
documentation. 6
MR. GREENWALD: Well, one observation is, at 7
least can we have an index of the documents that are 8
in there before we begin? 9
And second observation is, as we've discussed 10
with you both by e-mail and earlier in the Hearing, 11
we're not going to be providing binders to Respondent 12
to have Respondent not reciprocate and provide binders 13
to the Claimants. 14
Again, going back to what we said on the 15
first day, we want the Parties to play by the same 16
rules. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. We have a problem 18
now. We cannot really copy three volumes in order to 19
satisfy. 20
One point would be the first request would be 21
to have a copy of the list of exhibits that will be 22
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submitted. I think this should be-- 1
DR. HEISKANEN: That we can make available. 2
We can refer back to the Tribunal's ruling on this 3
issue. As you will, this was discussed during the 4
pre-hearing conference, and the Claimants' position at 5
the time was that they will be using electronic 6
documents during the examination of our witnesses. 7
The Respondent's position was that we will be--we 8
reserve the right to use cross-examination binders, 9
and the Tribunal's ruling on the issue was that if the 10
Respondent or if either Party uses cross-examination 11
binders, they will be made available to the Witness 12
and to the Court Reporter. And that is the ruling we 13
are complying with. 14
There has been communication between counsel 15
and whether we would be able to make available at 16
additional copies of the cross-examination binders to 17
the Claimants' counsel. We indicated that we will try 18
to do that as a matter of courtesy on the 19
understanding or on the condition that the service 20
provider will be able to make a sufficient number of 21
hard copies. That was possible for Mr. Henry 22
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yesterday. It was not possible because of the volume 1
for Mr. Tanase. 2
This is a matter that was discussed during 3
the pre-hearing conference. 4
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: There are a number of 5
concerns. One of them is when Claimants made the 6
proposal to proceed with an electronic record, it 7
would have been an agreed record, and it would have 8
been an agreed of set of iPads that would have--and 9
both Parties would have been able to see what happens 10
when you hit a certain tab. Claimants' counsel is 11
concerned to know what is exactly behind those tabs 12
that the Witness is being asked to look at. 13
I think if the Claimants' counsel are not 14
having a copy exactly of this binder and we need to 15
pull it up, someone from our team needs to be able to 16
verify what is actually put in Mr. Tanase's binder 17
that he's looking at. This is a basic due-process 18
issue that I think should be well-understood by 19
counsel that before you show Claimants or a Party's 20
witness a document, counsel for that party should be 21
able to see the same thing, so that one sees what the 22
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Witness precisely is looking at. 1
That's a large part of the issue. 2
DR. HEISKANEN: Mr. President, I can add to 3
that, that these are just exhibits which are on 4
record. They will be also shown to the Tribunal and 5
to the Witness electronically on the screen, so 6
exactly the same document. 7
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: No, no, no because the 8
Party--a witness has to be able to, when it looks at a 9
document not only look at a paragraph. A witness is 10
given a copy of a full exhibit so that a witness can 11
look and familiarize him or herself with the document 12
that's put in front of the person. So looking at a 13
little couple of lines on the screen is not sufficient 14
for these purposes. It aids others to follow, but 15
that's not the answer to the fundamental question. 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I think we cannot 17
now suspend the Hearing and wait until we have another 18
document--sorry, yeah? 19
MR. LEW: Can I make a suggestion? 20
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yes. 21
MR. LEW: Which is, one of the challenges, of 22
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course, for counsel is to know what documents are 1
being shown, and if there's not a binder, there seem 2
to be a lot of documents. If we could get the index 3
of the documents and allow us time to pull them up 4
electronically because, as you know, it takes time to 5
find a document in the record, and the questions may 6
just go on, and we won't be able to keep up with the 7
documents as the questions are being asked, so that 8
may require a few minutes for us to be able to 9
identify and then pull up electronically on a laptop 10
the documents that are being-- 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, we have now to 12
decide in order to make this Hearing take place. I 13
would like, really, to have a copy of the list of the 14
documents that will be submitted. 15
DR. HEISKANEN: We are happy to provide an 16
index. That's not the issue. 17
I just refer the Tribunal back to its ruling 18
in Procedural Order Number 25, Paragraph 48, and that 19
is the ruling on the basis of which we have operated. 20
As you will recall, the Parties at the time had a 21
different approach to the cross-examination of 22
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witnesses. The Claimants' approach that they will be 1
relying on electronic documents only and that there 2
will be no need for hard copies at all. The 3
Respondent reserves the right to use hard-copy 4
documents for examination of witnesses. 5
And again, as I indicated, the same exhibits 6
that the Witness has in these binders will also be 7
shown on the screen as we are in exactly the same 8
passages on which we will be asking questions. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I suggest the 10
following: 11
First, could you provide--this really must 12
not be a complicated task--a copy as soon as possible, 13
a copy of the list, you have a lot of people, if one 14
of them can now prepare the list or index of the 15
document that you will have, is possible. 16
DR. HEISKANEN: As I indicated, the list is 17
available, and we will make a copy available to the 18
Claimants' counsel. 19
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. 20
Secondly, when you receive the document in 21
the bundle, indeed we will have the reference to the 22
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exhibit, and we will wait until we have it. I will 1
give green light because I'm certainly the one who is 2
the slower in the group until we have it so that 3
everybody has the electronic version. That is what 4
you wish to have. 5
Now, the third question would be whether 6
there is a discrepancy between the document that is in 7
the file and the document that is on the 8
screen--first, I already trust that will not be the 9
case; and, secondly, the Witness himself could check 10
with the version that you have in paper and the 11
version that is on the screen whether this is the 12
case. In case you have the slightest doubt, you 13
mention it. 14
Would that be agreeable with you, Claimants? 15
DR. HEISKANEN: Mr. President, we are in the 16
process of e-mailing the index to the Claimants' 17
counsel and also providing a hard copy, but again I 18
can--it's the same exhibits that you will be on the 19
screen, the three binders only contain exhibits that 20
are on record. 21
MR. GREENWALD: I think we should wait until 22
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the index is provided in hard copy to proceed. 1
MR. LEW: Yes. 2
PRESIDENT TERCIER: In hard copy? 3
MR. GREENWALD: A hard copy of the index. 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Oh, the index. I thought 5
the binders-- 6
MR. GREENWALD: It can't be more than a 7
couple pages, it should be not more than a few minutes 8
for them to print it. 9
DR. HEISKANEN: We suggest then we have a 10
short break. 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yes. 12
You tell us when this is done. 13
MR. LEW: Thank you. 14
(Brief recess.) 15
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yeah. 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION 2
BY DR. HEISKANEN: 3
Q. Good morning, Mr. Tănase. 4
A. Good morning. 5
Q. My name is Veijo Heiskanen, counsel for the 6
Respondent. I will be asking you a few questions this 7
morning, and then my colleague, Ms. Radjai, will have 8
a few further questions on another subject. 9
You should have now the documents in front of 10
you, but, as we explained, they will also be available 11
on the screen. So, if you find it more convenient to 12
look at the document on the screen, you can also do 13
that. 14
Now, as you have explained in your Witness 15
Statement, you joined RMGC in January 2008? 16
A. I believe it was February, but that's 17
correct. Yeah. January 2008. Yeah, that's correct. 18
Q. And you began as general manager in April of 19
2008? 20
A. That's correct. 21
Q. You were not involved in the Project before 22
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AFTERNOON SESSION 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: So, ladies and gentlemen, 2
good afternoon. I suggest that we resume. 3
Before that, everything now is fine now with 4
the list of documents that will be used? It's okay? 5
You have received it? 6
MR. VASQUEZ: If you're referring to the 7
documents for the next witness, counsel for Respondent 8
said that we would get a binder before the break, so 9
we're expecting that when the Witness takes the stand, 10
that we'll be handed a binder. 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You have it? 12
(Comment off microphone.) 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yes, but do you have a 14
copy for counsel for Respondent? 15
MS. RADJAI: I believe we're talking about 16
the next witness. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I understand. But for the 18
next you will have it? 19
MR. GUIBERT de BRUET: That's what I 20
understand. 21
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay, good. Fine. 22
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No further point? 1
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: I'm sorry, I need to make 2
a correction from before. This is about the 3
attendance in the room. I misunderstood, and Ms. Ruth 4
Teitelbaum, since we last had spoken, she has not been 5
in the room. She is only an advisor to the 6
Arbitration Committee, and for that reason she's not 7
any longer at the Hearing. 8
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Thank you very 9
much. 10
Fine. Please, Ms. Radjai, you have the 11
floor. 12
MS. RADJAI: Thank you, Mr. President. 13
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION 14
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Mr. Tanase, so we 4
are at the end of your examination. I would like to 5
thank you. 6
I would like to have a few minutes, one or 7
two points that we should address before going forth. 8
First, the time, Ms. Secretary Marzal, can 9
you give the time, the result. 10
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: Yes. 11
THE WITNESS: Thank you, everybody. I will 12
go. 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yes, of course. 14
(Witness steps down.) 15
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: So the total times 16
are for Claimants' remaining 28 hours and 15 minutes; 17
for Respondent-- 18
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you also say the time 19
that has been used? 20
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: Well, I can do the 21
subtractions. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay, you can do it 1
tomorrow. 2
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: I can send an 3
e-mail tonight. 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yeah. 5
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: I just need to do 6
the subtractions. But Claimants, 28 hours, 15 7
minutes; Respondent, 23 hours and 6 minutes; Tribunal, 8
3 hours and 35 minutes. 9
I believe that Respondent spent today 5 hours 10
and 24 minutes, and I need to do the subtraction for 11
Claimants. 12
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good. That's 13
Points Number 1. 14
Point Number 2, I recall that, in line with 15
the decision that was taken, you should prepare the 16
list of exhibits and the issues for the--we have it 17
already from Mr. Avram, but from Mr. Gligor, from 18
Ms. Lorincz, and on your side you should do the same 19
for Mr. Găman. 20
Third point concerning the program, we will, 21
of course, start with Mr. Avram, then Mr. Gligor, then 22
Page | 1061
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Mrs. Lorincz. The goal should be really to have still 1
room for the first part of the examination of 2
Mr. Găman, so I hope--not only I hope, I urge really 3
that this should be possible. 4
I would like to recall you that as far as I'm 5
informed Mr. Avram, Mr. Gligor, and Mrs. Lorincz will 6
be--will need an interpreter, so it will take a bit 7
more time, as we all know by experience. 8
The fourth point, you remember that I asked 9
the Parties to make a few comments concerning their 10
requests and your requests or the request of the EC. 11
We have already received Claimants' position. I would 12
be happy to have your position whether you can do that 13
so the Arbitral Tribunal could take its Decision. 14
Yes, Dr. Heiskanen? 15
DR. HEISKANEN: We will communicate it 16
tomorrow morning. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Very good. 18
These are the points that I had on my list. 19
Have you another point you would like to raise? 20
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: I think that Claimants 21
think there maybe should be some clarity about the 22
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direct for Mr. Avram because he will not be speaking 1
about new so-called "rebuttal documents" but only 2
these most recent exhibits. I forget the number now, 3
215 and 655, he will only make some comments about 4
that, that will be the only thing. 5
So, the question is, it seems to us that this 6
does not warrant Ms. Mocanu to be in the room for 7
direct. I don't know if that was what the Respondent 8
expected. We just think that we should at least be 9
clear so that we don't have a disagreement about that 10
tomorrow. 11
And if there's any difference of view on this 12
issue, that maybe we should just discuss that briefly 13
now what the expectation is. 14
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Dr. Heiskanen? 15
DR. HEISKANEN: Certainly if there is any new 16
evidence or comments on these new exhibits, Ms. Mocanu 17
would have to be able to participate and attend the 18
Hearing. 19
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: The challenge is that 20
Ms. Mocanu is also presumably going to say something 21
new about the document that Respondent put in, and so 22
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now I think the Parties are entirely in an equal 1
position on this Issue and, I think that--but yet 2
Mr. Avram is going to be examined first, and it just 3
doesn't seem that it's appropriate in this 4
circumstance for Ms. Mocanu to have the advantage to 5
hear whatever it is that Mr. Avram is going to say, 6
and then say something else. 7
It's just not in the same circumstance as we 8
were for the other categories. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Dr. Heiskanen? 10
DR. HEISKANEN: You know, in our view, it's 11
exactly the same situation. It's rebuttal evidence. 12
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: Well, it's not rebuttal 13
evidence. 14
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, the Arbitral 15
Tribunal will decide and communicate the decision to 16
you. 17
It would be for Mrs. Mocanu? 18
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: I don't know if--because 19
Mr. Avram is not providing any rebuttal in his direct, 20
we don't see any need for any of Respondent's Experts 21
to sit in on the limited direct he will be giving. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. The Arbitral 1
Tribunal will decide and communicate its Decision 2
after this meeting. 3
Do you have another point? Do you have 4
another point? 5
MR. GREENWALD: If it's possible to have 6
clarification--I understand the Tribunal's preference 7
would be to have Mr. Găman start tomorrow in the late 8
afternoon, if possible, and what we're asking is if 9
the Respondent's position is if that's going to happen 10
realistically. We would like to know. 11
DR. HEISKANEN: Fair enough. We will be 12
seeing where we are after the Hearing, and we will 13
communicate by e-mail to the Tribunal and counsel for 14
the Claimants as to where we are for tomorrow. 15
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. 16
MR. GREENWALD: Thank you. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Do you have on your side 18
other points you would like to raise? 19
DR. HEISKANEN: There is just one, if I could 20
get a minute. 21
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: If I used the word 22
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"expert," I did not mean to do so. 1
DR. HEISKANEN: Can I confer for a moment? 2
(Discussion off the record.) 3
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes, Mr. President, we just 4
wanted to confirm our understanding of what the 5
Claimants' counsel just said about the rebuttal 6
evidence that Mr. Avram is going to produce tomorrow 7
morning, so I understand now that he's not going to 8
comment on the evidence of Ms. Serban or Ms. Mocanu on 9
direct examination. 10
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: That is correct because we 11
understand the Tribunal to be saying that rebuttal 12
evidence can only be comments on new rebuttal 13
documents, and we are to indicate in advance what 14
those documents would be. And so, although we don't 15
consider them rebuttal documents, we identified the 16
three basically those exhibits that are about 215 and 17
655, that's it, and so Mr. Avram necessarily is not 18
going to be giving any testimony that would be 19
characterized as "rebuttal." 20
DR. HEISKANEN: Okay. That confirms our 21
understanding, and that is fine, thank you very much 22
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for the clarification. 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Does it change the 2
position that you had? 3
DR. HEISKANEN: No--well, it means that we 4
have no longer a pending request to allow Ms. Mocanu 5
and Ms. Serban to attend the direct examination of 6
Mr. Avram tomorrow morning, except for the issue of 7
the new--two new exhibits for which the Tribunal is 8
now going to take a decision, as you indicated a few 9
minutes ago. 10
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Ah-ha. I thought it was 11
the answer to our--okay. Fine. 12
Okay. Otherwise, do you have another? 13
DR. HEISKANEN: No issues on our side. Thank 14
you very much. 15
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 16
I have a very important point is to thank you 17
all for a long day, especially our Court Reporters 18
that are still in front of the Tribunal, and I look 19
whether they are still smiling or not. I think they 20
are. I wish you all a very pleasant evening, and we 21
will meet tomorrow morning at 9:00. 22
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(Whereupon, at 6:22 p.m., the Hearing was 1
adjourned until 9:00 a.m. the following day.) 2
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I, David A. Kasdan, RDR-CRR, Court Reporter,
do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings
were stenographically recorded by me and
thereafter reduced to typewritten form by
computer-assisted transcription under my
direction and supervision; and that the
foregoing transcript is a true and accurate
record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither counsel
for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to this action in this proceeding, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this litigation.
DAVID A. KASDAN
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I, Margie Dauster, RMR-CRR, Court
Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing
proceedings were stenographically recorded by
me and thereafter reduced to typewritten form
by computer-assisted transcription under my
direction and supervision; and that the
foregoing transcript is a true and accurate
record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of
the parties to this action in this proceeding,
nor financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this litigation.
_________________________
MARGIE DAUSTER