What would you say was yourunderstanding of divination?It is meeting with the spirit of theelement that you are working with,whether it is coca, tarot cards,maize or a mountain. In the case ofcoca, you meet the mother spirit,soul, or power of the plant, which isthe sacred part which never dies.

The practitioner must be in totalcommunication, spirit-to-spirit.It is more like listening tothe coca leaves thanreading them. It is ahigher state ofconsciousness.You have tobepreparedto

integrate yourself spirituallyto help another spirit.

Human beings aresacred cosmic seeds inevolution. The coca is asacred seed like us, only ofthe vegetable kingdom. Aswith Ayahuasca, or SanPedro, they have beencreated by Mother Earth toguide and heal their youngerbrothers - ourselves.Similarly we have beencreated to help otherpeople. As we becomemore open we discoverplants like coca, forexample. Not everybodysees the spirit of coca,Ayahuasca, or San Pedro,but they are here to help us.

What about the cause ofdisease, and how is itcured? Illnesses do not exist, we

create them with our mindsaccording to our attitudes and thethings we do - our karma.Resentment, for example, causescancer; a woman whose ovaries areunwell may be resentful of being awoman and suffers trauma. Peoplewho do not have the freedom toexpress their feelings suffer fromthroat problems and so on.

So how do we heal them?First we need to look at them

through the coca leaves, toknow what has happened.

Why are they resentful,fearful or anxious?

What is causingtheir problems?Difficulties

existingoutside

PREPARINGFOR THE

FUTUREtraditionalAndean healerDORIS RIVERA LENZ

talks to Howard GCharing and PeterCloudsley about theeffect of belief on health,how we get sick, andhow she helps patientsrecover, and she looksto a future when we willneed to keep balanceas material values nolonger isolate us fromthe Earth

SH ISSUE 57 2007 33

their body, such as a theft,disillusionment, or being lied toaffect them because they arepredisposed to have this pain.Then they get ill because they arenot in equilibrium with themselves.

The coca shows when and howthis began, it tells the story of howthey got ill.

Is there a difference betweenthe kind of condition whichdevelops over a long period ofnegativity, like cancer, and adisease which you can catchfrom someone very quickly?The first seems to be created byoneself, the latter is biological.Human beings are alwayspredisposed by their attitudes, this iswhy you need to know their story.Someone who has a superioritycomplex, or is aggressive andviolent, is on a downward spiral.They are weakened in their heart,stomach, and solar plexus - the ñawior naira (equivalent to chakra) whereemotional attitudes are held. So forexample, you eat a dirty apple, andimmediately you are ill.

A person who harbours feelingsof hate may feel perfectly well for atime, but problems with theirchildren, their husband, or lack ofmoney, intensify their emotions,which degenerate their body on acellular level. So they create theirillness because they were alreadyout of equilibrium. This is why twopeople might eat the same applebut only one falls prey to the illness.

Can you explain theAndean concept of theHindu word chakra?The nearest word in Quechua isñawi, or in Aymara, naira, and itmeans ‘eye’ or energy centre of thebody, but curiously chakra is a verycommon word in Peru, and isQuechua for a piece of cultivatedland, or field. I believe it has thesame linguistic root as the Hinduchakra. Just as some fields havelots of stones, and others are veryfertile, so our bodies, also part ofnature, are similar.

In the Andes, people willfrequently consider an achingstomach to have been caused bysorrow. Less than a generationago, people would make offerings,before preparing their fields forsowing. They would chew cocaleaves, drink chicha [maize beer]and even play music - a wholeceremony. The ancient healers orshamans would give floral or smoke

baths to people, curing them ofillnesses, fright and so on - the‘health’ of the land and the peoplewere treated as though interrelated.

When they remove weeds fromtheir chakra, they see it as removingnegative emotions from their person.So they identify themselves withtheir fields and with Nature, a littlelike Feng Shui - you feel better afteryou have had a Hoover up at home!

When they are feelingdesperate, the people of theAndes benefit from going to a wildplace, or some ruins, to screamand shout so that even themountains will hear. In this wayyou align with natural forces, thisputs you back into equilibrium.

Soul retrieval can be found inmany parts of the world. How dothey deal with it in the Andes?When a child falls suddenly, itssoul can leave its body and it mayget ill. If this happens, an offeringis made in the place of the fall, toheal the child.

There are many ways to ‘callthe soul’. You can get hold of apiece of the person’s clothing andmake a little doll and decorate itwith flowers or whatever theperson likes, and you call his soulin the place where the fright tookplace. You can use items likeherbs, a dove’s nest, rabbits’droppings, feathers, tobacco,coca, or whatever.

It doesn’t matter if there is nofixed place where the problembegan. If, for instance, someonehas been oppressed by someoneelse, you simply go to the highestmountain or near to a river to callthe soul. And before any session,

first you must ask permission fromPachamama, or Mother Earth.

Are people who come to you forcoca divination often unwell?Many people are unwell in their spiritor mind, there are lots of problemstoday. They are particularly afflictedin the stomach, the solar plexus,and the navel. It’s the place ofemotional pain, and also where weare linked to Life.

The first thing is to discoverwhat is going on in the present.Maybe the wife had an accident,the husband was unfaithful, theyhaven’t got a job, the house isfalling down… Then I look to seetheir capacity to accept a criticism,to listen to the coca mother leafticking them off saying “Youhave done this, you areinsecure, weak, a drunk, or aprostitute.”

This sounds like a morepsychological approach;you are seeing whatpeople are doing tothemselves. How do youmake sense of the beliefthat the problem is causedby sorcery, for examplesomeone feels thatanother is envious of themand will curse them?You have to show the personhe is not the victim of sorceryand that he is creating theproblem in his mind. Theyneed to go back over it;talking about it brings it outand is the first part ofbecoming well again.

It is true that some peoplewill take vengeance through

When they arefeeling desperate,the people of the

Andes benefitfrom going

to a wild place,or some ruins,

to screamand shout sothat even the

mountains willhear. In this way

you align withnatural forces,

this puts youback into

equilibrium.

sorcery when they feel prejudiced, oroffended in some way, because theyare sick. When people think they havepower and feel superior, the ego canbecome very negative. The first thing Ido is to wake up the consciousness ofthe person who has been harmed andtell them that evil does not exist! ‘Youare inventing it’, I tell them. Brujos[sorcerers] do exist of course, but youneed to use a bit of psychology.

So the power of sorcerydoes not really exist?Neither good nor bad exists, we createthe good and the bad. But I recognisethat the person may feel attacked.When someone falls ill it means theyare weak and the curandero [healer]must speak positively and encouragethem to shine light on it. Then theycan create positive thoughts forthemselves. If I agree and say they arebewitched, it makes them worse.

I see you are trying to shiftthat person’s reality around,but do you recognise thatsorcery can exist?Of course, but the act itself is not sopowerful as white magic; it is thenegative spirit of the Brujos’ whichcreates the power of the spell. If youget hold of a chicken and take off itsfeathers, put a toad inside, and hangit in the doorway of a hatedneighbour, you can give them anasty fright, but without a powerfulnegative spirit nothing will happen.But if the intentions are verynegative and the person is weakthey will pick it up quickly.

The most powerful Brujos arefound in the jungle where there arepowerful plants for healing, just asthere are dangerous plants that canparalyse your body. But plants havemuch more wisdom than people. Doyou think that if I go to a floripondio[a shaman who works with flowers]and say “I want help to do harm to soand so”, that it will be at mydisposal? You have to make a pactwith the spirit of the plant.

Do people need tobelieve that your ceremonyhas done something?When people trust that I am acurandera they open up, and I havespecial permission to go into theirsoul, and work with suggestion. Imight give them a floral bath with aherb that has spines, and askpermission from the spirit of thatplant to heal the person from fright ora bad spell - I bathe them, put themon a diet, cleanse them and purify

When a child fallssuddenly, its soul

can leave its body and it may get ill.

If this happens, anoffering is made

in the place of thefall, to heal the child.

It doesn’t matter ifthere is no fixed place where the

problem began. If, for instance,someone has been oppressed by

someone else, you simply go tothe highest mountain or near to

a river to call the soul

them. I call their soul and givethem strength and they get well.

You are a psychologist?It’s okay to say that.

A lot depends on the mindand education of the person.Some curanderos hardlyspeak to their clients, do they?No - but I talk a lot, although thereare times when I can’t say anything.

Is there something similar goingon when you pass eggs overpeople to diagnose and heal?There are several ways of workingwith an egg. We know that an eggis the union of the masculine andthe feminine. We should recognisethat this union is supremely sacred.We are the product of an egg too.So the egg is the total energy ofthe mother’s and the father’s cells.You take the first egg of a hen,which is virgin, and ask the‘angelic’, elemental spirit to takeaway the illness of a person, youask the spirit for permission to doit. Then you pass it over their body,its like an X-Ray. You can also do itwith guinea-pigs or rabbits, but Idon’t like doing it with animals.

Is it a mechanical process,or is there an energetic linkbetween you and the client?There is a link, a connection withthe spirit of the egg, because Idon’t have X-Ray eyes. When Ibreak the egg into a glass of waterafterwards and interpret thepatterns there is no set of rules that

says that a bubble here alwaysmeans this or that. The moment thehuman mind comes into thepassing of the egg or a coca leafreading, the process goes out ofbalance. If I want to comfort you,and I say “You’re not going to die,you’ll be OK” it’s spoiled.

The fact that there is a longtradition behind these methodsof divination helps you?Of course, it’s an ancestral thing.

What is different about Westernpeople? What do they need?Their heads cutting off - no, its onlya joke! To be serious though, theirreligion has failed them, the Churchauthorities have kept vested interestsand institutions going. Eventuallypeople have thrown the baby outwith the bath water. In Peru, the

These people go to the cityand see a TV and think

‘What a beautiful TV!They sell their llamas andbuy one. I am sad to seetheir children who are so

pure, being contaminated.

They learn negative habitsand are hypnotized, and no

longer want to work theirland. It really hurts in my

soul to see a Q’erocurandero obsessing

about dollars

campesinos [country people] havenever really believed in the Europeanreligion, the Pope, sin, guilt etc.,which has only confused them.

When the Inca Atahualpa wastold by the Spanish he should bebaptised, he replied:

“No, I won’t change my God,for a God which has died already. Ibelieve in one which never dies.”

It’s fine to have Gods - theOriental ones, an Inca, an extra-terrestrial, Buddha or Krishna. You

can have as many Gods asyou want, it doesn’t closeany doors, no one is beingjudged.

But there will never beanything like Mother Earthand the Sun, or the Moon.Think what would happen ifwe lost them - that is God!Mother Earth is thefeminine aspect of God,and Father Sun is themasculine aspect, and weare all a product of that.

But what has become ofWestern religion?

Materialism, loss of identity, loss ofcustoms. How can we help peoplein the face of the avalanche ofproblems being created today? Cutoff their heads? Give them a heavydose of positive cosmic radiation?

There are so many strugglestoday. People are no longerthinking about nature, but moneyand the help they need. They havebecome completely insecure.

The tendency today is foreverybody to want to move into thecities everywhere, to live likeAmerica, build motorways. Butimagine if we went to live in natureagain, surrounded by mountains, orin the rainforest.

It’s sad. I’ve spent time withpeople in the Andes. I have seenpeople leaving their traditionalclothes and customs for theMaranata religion. They are agroup that says why do youbelieve in the Earth, the Sun, thepuma and the condor? Againreligion is controlling the Andeancampesino. These people go tothe city and see a TV and think,“What a beautiful TV!”. They selltheir llamas and buy one. I am sadto see their children who are sopure, being contaminated.

They learn negative habits andare hypnotised, and no longer wantto work their land. It really hurts inmy soul to see a Q’ero curanderoobsessing about dollars, meanwhileforgetting his power. This loss of

values for material things ishappening so fast, it’s incredible!It’s the Western influence whichhas been working over 500 years.

They see on TV the huge kindsof potatoes which can beproduced using fertilizers, and theythink “How beautiful, I want that,”but they don’t know how the Earthis ruined by fertilizers.

What do you think will happen inthe future on a planetary level?People will get a nasty shock fromseeing the increasing changes andnatural disasters on the Earth andwe will be shocked into changing.Unfortunately this is the only waywe will change.

So that the collective fear willnot infect us when these thingshappen, we need to work daily tobalance ourselves. Even if thosearound you are overcome, youmust be a maestro and maintainyour centre.

Everybody worries about theirfuture, no? But there will come atime when they will have finallywoken up to the realisation thatthere is no future in the way weare going. They will be shockedinto living in the present, and thiswill create a new human being.We will realise that individualismdoesn’t work and this will unite usin a shared future.

The desperation will show thenecessity of love. Who will want todo harm or be aggressive whenmoney and material things havebecome useless? We will comeback to a new kind of communityconsciousness.

This is an expanded version of theinterview published in the book PlantSpirit Shamanism by Ross Heaven andHoward G. Charing (Destiny Books)Howard G. Charing has worked with manyshamans & healers in the Andes, theAmazon Rainforest, and the Philippines.With Peter Cloudsley he organisesspecialist retreats to the AmazonRainforest at the dedicated centre locatedin the Mishana nature reserve.Peter Cloudsley has built up a documentedarchive of Fiesta music, icaros andshamanism, and has collected for theBritish Museum. He has travelledextensively in Latin America, especiallyPeru, studying the diversity of music andshamanism. Peter offers courses on musicand popular culture in Latin America. For more information about Amazon andAndean work, contact Eagle’s WingCentre for Contemporary Shamanism.www.shamanism.co.ukeagleswing@shamanism.co.uk Tel: (01273) 882 027Eagle’s Wing will be working with Doris andJuan Navarro the shaman from the north ofPeru (featured in the article The MesaNortena (Sacred Hoop Summer 2004)in a special tour in Peru March 2008.

People will get a nasty shock from seeing the increasing changes and natural disasters on the Earth and we will beshocked into changing.Unfortunately this is the only way we will change.

So that the collective fear will not infectus when these thingshappen we needto work daily tobalance ourselves