interview with marcos - august 1995

8/13/2019 Interview With Marcos - August 1995

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Interview with Marcos -

August 1995

La Jornada August 25

Carmen Libra, writer, Part 1, somewhere in the Lacandon jungle,

in August

Surrounded, harassed, in almost total physical isolation, Marcos

insists in talking about the nation, in knowing "what its heart

wants".

The plebiscite on this Sunday is one form, but there will be many

others, he says, because a "push" has to be made towards the

construction of an alternative that avoids having the country "goto shit like it is doing now".

This is clear to everyone, he stated, "except the government,

which believes that it can still handle the crisis", a crisis that in

addition to being economic, is now political, clearly, but --pay

attention!--"not necessarily revolutionary", which, instead of

leading to a transition to democracy, could be converted into a"reactionary crisis" and "take the country into fascism, without

necessarily a military coup".

The warning was made by the subcomandante of the EZLN inthe first personal interview given to the media since February

9th, when, --after the Attorney General of the Republic revealed

his alleged identity--he was converted into the most wanted manin the country. No one has seen him, besides his supporters,

since that day in February when the Attorney General insinuated,


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showing a photo of Rafael Sebastian Guillen Vicente from

Tabasco, that he had "unmasked Marcos".

"By the way", he added with his particular sense of humor which

is hard to explain how he still has it, " this story about the guy

from Tabasco who has so ruined my correspondence withwomen, is not true. Write, write there that I am taller, stronger

and more handsome than what the Attorney General says, so thatthe girls will start writing me again. Okay?"

Just a few weeks before the National and International Plebiscite,which the EZLN called for, Marcos left one of his refuges of the

past few months to meet with the reporters from La Jornada andto send a message to the country's civil society, which is who,

according to the judgment of the Zapatistas, should start to

determine the direction that the nation will take.

"The people have to understand that they have to participate,

since if they don't, we will lose, and if we lose, they lose; they

have to understand that if we are defeated, they are defeated", he

said insistently.

"The democratic proposal should be made a reality, or instead,

everything is going to be even worse, if a coup takes place,

which I talked about with you before and that--I insist-- can be

expected not from the federal Army but rather from the fascistright".

--In whom are you thinking?

--In the most organized structure of the right which is theNational Action Party (PAN), not the Army--he said again and

then expanded--the alternative of the right for resolving this

political crisis is not a coup in the classic sense of the word,which is to say, that the military take power and begin to


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administer the government, which is what is understood to be a

military coup. No: the most organized and best prepared option

of the right to capitalize on the crisis and carry out the

reactionary alternative is the National Action Party. And they

(the PAN members) are preparing already, not for the year2,000, but before. The National Action Party is betting that the

regime, not just the PRI party-state, but the PRI regime will not

last six years.

--In your judgment, how would the transnational capitalists view

this?

--They are will to bet on a change in the regime, so they aresupportive. For this reason the National Action Party winks at

this sector, and appears to be saying: "I can guarantee the same

economic process and resolve the political crisis". This is the bet

of the "slow, negotiated transition", and as examples there are

Baja California, Guanajuato, Chihuahua, Jalisco..."

Marcos held his pipe at the same time as his voice hardened:

"With the imposition of the fascist solution, people will lose

hope, and when they kill your hope, they don't have to kill you

...If this happens, then they can do what they want with this

country: take the oil, let's go..to the national toilet!"

The subcomandante guerrilla tried to clarify what the Zapatistasare hoping for from the civil society:

"Now we don't just want sympathies. That all of these men and

women who since January 1994 have said NO to the war,

understand that we are on the same side, and that whatever

affects us, affects many others, in fact affects the struggle for a

transition to democracy. In other words, the failure or the successof this plebiscite, among other aims, will not be ours alone".


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--How will the success of the plebiscite be defined?

--In that it takes away the use of weapons from both sides, and

that the discussion stay completely within the political terrain. In

other words, by means of the plebiscite, neither one of the armies

would be able to use weapons: this would be an achievement forthe plebiscite, the Dialogue at San Andres, and the entire peace

process in Chiapas.

--Is success also going to be measured by the number of

participants?

Supporting himself against the trunks that make up the sides ofthe bench, constructed recently for the interview, Marcos

explains:

--We will have two criteria to evaluate it: first, whether the

plebiscite was really national, whether it includes if not all of the

states in the Republic, then at least the majority of them at a

significant level. This would be an achievement, even if it is lessthan the general election. And then, whether the level of voting

in this plebiscite is greater than those of the last two (the one thatwas done against the government of Carlos Salinas, which had

600,000 votes, and the one on the National Plan for

Development, which had 300,000 votes). For this reason it is

important to the EZLN that the 10,000 tables for voting are setup, as planned by the Civic Alliance, throughout the country.

--I get the impression that this referendum, plebiscite, or consult,

as all of you call it, has the aim of opening a new dialogue.

Would this one replace the one that has been conducted with the

government?

--Look, I think that the EZLN, and in general whateveropposition force, does not have any reason to dialogue with the


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government. It is not going to achieve anything, except put off

the confrontation. In addition, the alternative that we are seeking

is not going to come from the government or from the political

parties or from the EZLN. It will come from something new.

What is that? I don't know. For this reason we have to talk andtalk and talk about these things, with those people with whom

since January 1994 we are in synchrony.

--Marcos, then what is the plebiscite?

--The plebiscite is like a thermometer and makes up part ofsomething that is going to start to function or that is already

working: this type of dialogue is very primitive, as primitive asyou talk--I listen to you--and I take it in. This is not to say that

necessarily there has to be plebiscites, consultations or referenda

constantly; perhaps we will find other ways. But when we omit

the government and we begin to talk directly, perhaps we will

find other ways.

--The process of a referendum, for example, is not considered as

part of our laws. The government and the majority of the media,

with their silence, could disparage it, arguing that the process is

illegal, that it doesn't count.

--That's probable, but they can't stop it. They don't have any

credibility to do that anymore. In addition I think that theprincipal force of the plebiscite is in its organization, in all of the

efforts that are being made to carry it out. The other important

part is that someone, whatever citizen, would take the time to get

an ID and to spend the few moments on August 27th to answer

some questions, with the confidence that his or her opinion was

going to count in the final tally.

I noticed that the Subcomandante appeared optimistic, almostexcited:


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--Do you believe that many people are going to participate?

--I don't know how many is many people--he responded between

laughs, I suppose because for the first time he did not respond

with his classic "a shitload"-- Look, I see it in stages: if they

begin to move to organize it, we will view that as a good sign. Ifwe are able to bring together again the former Convention, that

will be good too. Or in other words, if at least the six thousandwho went to Aguascalientes again become active again.

--There are those who say that one thing is that the peoplesympathize with the Zapatista cause, and it is another if they

become involved. Aren't you betting a lot on the "civic society"?

--And why not bet on it, if they have showed us on several

occasions what they are capable of. In addition, look: we are at a

point of indecision, at an impasse in which the society in general

is going to determine who yes and who no...

--Don't you find this civil society still very disorganized and alittle slow?

-And yet they move--he responded with a sly look--All you have

to do is look at the young people. The young people, for us, have

been a surprise. We thought that we were going to confront an

urban youth who were completely brainwashed, selfish,

completely alienated through years of being bombarded by themedia. And contrary to the image that we had of them, we have

found youth who are very aware, very critical and very

committed.

"The same thing happened for us with the women, and as a result

the largest part of the solidarity and sympathy with the EZLN

comes from women, whom we also can not divide into strata:whether they are workers or middle-class. No: they are women.


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--We are in a hurry, all of you aren't?--he interrupted, with irony.

--But do you think that the Zapatistas and the road that they have

chosen is the future of the country?

--No: the future of Mexico is not a ski-mask, nor a weapon...butneither is it a necktie and a diploma from a foreign university.

"This mercantile criteria that they have learned in their advanced

studies abroad, from De la Madrid to Zedillo, and those who will

come later--the businessmen who administer countries instead of

businesses or as if they were businesses--this is who has been

applying this political lesson, with the consequential results, inMexico.

But in addition, this political class creates a parallel economic

class, of businessmen and bankers who think alike. Take a look

at, for example: How could the Mexican bank be so stupid as to

commit suicide with these usurious conditions that they have

imposed and that have generated the most important socialmovement, in my way of thinking, of 1995, which is El Barzon,

which is not indigenous, nor working class, nor political.

Marcos does not hide his admiration for this movement, and

again asks:

"How is it possible that the stock market could animate--with theconditions that it imposes--a movement like that, and do what no

one else has been able to do-- except fascism--which is to

mobilize the middle class against the government and, in this

case, against the stock market. Really, it takes being reallystupid."

No--he insisted in his proposal--"for this reason I tell you that thefuture is in a new world".


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--What will arise from where, if everything is in crisis?

--What is in crisis is the system, the government, the old things

and the anachronous ways of doing politics. But the nation can

survive with a new pact, with a new political class, and with new

forms of doing politics.

--And the push? From where will come the push?

--It is not going to come from the left or the right. The right is

going to again present another revolution but this time it is going

to put the Great Inquisition or an equivalent.

--So?

--It will come from the social sector, whose political

participation is what has characterized the last decade of the

century in Europe, in the United States, and in the case of

Mexico, during 1994-95, but that has its antecedents in 1985 and

in 88. In 85 it was more than a land movement for Mexico, andin 88, which we did not know how to view it as an opportunity,

and thus letting go by, what we know consider was an historicopportunity.

Marcos admitted the lack of capacity of his organization to

"read" what was happening in 1988, with Cardenism; he regrets

it because he says that perhaps, they, the Zapatistas, could havedone something to help so that as a result at that time the country

could have taken another direction.

And talking about the social "awakening" of 85, especially in thefirst hours after the earthquake, during which the people

mobilized themselves, governed themselves, he suggested:

"A great social movement, without organic direction, about very

specific simple demands, with creative forms of struggle, in


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large part as a response, as a rejection of the traditional forms of

doing politics of the left or the right".

--And won't your proposal have to do with the dream of self-

determination of 1968?

--Yes and no. I believe that what we are proposing is just the

stage before that of self-determination.

--But if you are proposing something completely different from

what rules the world now, and that the strongest impose...

--Yes. It is like the antithesis of neo-liberalism: a broader socialparticipation that makes itself political, which is to say, the civil

society becomes the political society, without having necessarily

to go through the traditional forms of making politics.

--Or in other words, in one way or another, the society stops

turning over the government to a representative, and assumes the

responsibility of governing. In subversive words: the civilsociety takes over the government, takes power and gives it to

someone. But it warns this someone that if he or she doesn'twork, he or she will go.

"This is where the indigenous people of Chiapas have what I call

a world proposal: we organize the world in this way, we exercise

power, we give it to someone, but we continue being vigilant ofthat person, and when he or she doesn't work, we take him or her

out. That's what is done in the indigenous communities."

--And if what they are proposing doesn't work?

--They are clear about this and say: Perhaps what we are

proposing will work or perhaps it won't. We don't know, butwhat we do know is the other--what is there today--doesn't work.


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Because, look: how is it possible that after 20 centuries, the

world--with neoliberalism--takes a step back of 300 years?

"And what is worse still for us: the government's proposal in the

dialogue at San Andres doesn't want to go back 300 years, but

rather 500 years! It wants to finish the Conquest of Mexico, notlike the North Americans did, annihilating the indigenous. No

they go beyond what General Custer did. They--the government-- are planning to continue a process of absorption and destruction

of what is indigenous: their culture. That's the genocide, not in

assassinating the indigenous, but in making them stop being

indigenous. How so? By attacking their customs, their forms ofgovernment...in this sense they are more reactionary--or more

revolutionary, according to the new political language".

--In this new world that you talk about, where does the EZLN

fit?

--The EZLN has to disappear as such. It is part of the old, of

what has to disappear. Don't forget that we are an army willing

to die, but also willing to kill. In the new society that is going to

be created, this does not have reason to exist.

No, he restated assuredly, the new world will not include the

EZLN, it will include others.

--So the EZLN is not planning to take power?

--No--he responded, and in response to my gesture of

incredibility, he further explained:

"We have come to realize that the problem is not that of taking

power, but rather who exercises it. We could say: we are

overthrowing the PRI, and now the Zapatista Party of NationalLiberation is in power. As President, Marcos. As Secretary of the

Government, some one bland: Tacho, he says with sarcasm; for


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Secretary of Foreign Relations, a great diplomat: Moises;

Education for Heriberto; for Secretary of Women's Action, Eva,

in the end..."

Marcos amused himself, distributing roles.

It is perhaps for this reason--the lack of interest in power--"that

the word of the Zapatistas has been well received in othercountries across the globe, above all in Europe. It has not just

been because it is new or novel, but rather because it is

proposing this, which is to say, to separate the political problemfrom the problem of taking power, and take it to another terrain."

--What terrain?

--A more plural terrain, a more altruistic one. Where they do not

jockey for positions of power, since you are not going to be able

to hold onto power illegally. And so, in this new terrain, to

construct something new, something where the ideas of the

Zapatistas would have to be diluted or transformed in such a waythat it would be irreconcilable." But this, he stated firmly--"has

to happen also with the Party-State, with the other traditionalpolitical parties, and with all of the traditional forms of doing

politics."

--And so, what is the EZLN going to be?

-- Our work is going to end, if it ends, in the construction of this

space for new political relationships. What follows is going to be

a product of the efforts of other people, with another way of

thinking and acting. And there we are not going to work; instead,we would be a disturbance.


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Part 3

Raul, like a good photographer, was the first to notice it. The

only thing that I had seen on his brown shirt were the ammobelts with their rows of bullets, the standard- issue bandanna, and

a small shield with the national flag on the left side of his chest.

--Did you see the other?--Raul asked me.

--What other?--I asked out loud.

Marcos happened to hear and immediately unbuttoned from the

right side of his shirt a golden shield, and put it in my hands. Infact it was gold, and the shape of the eagle was very different

from that of the modern eagle. I appeared to me to be a standardshield from the Mexican National Army, like those that only

high-ranking officials receive, such as generals, for example. But

the shape of the eagle intrigued me. If it had belonged to a

general, it would have to have been a general from earlier times,

I told myself.

--How did you get this?--I asked him.

--Someone sent it to me....and please excuse me for not tellingwho it was, but I am not authorized to do so--he said, making a

face that could be seen under the ski-mask, like those that

children make when they are proud that they have a secret.

"Just put--he said to me--that a great Mexican woman gave it to

me, a struggler for her entire life". He then put it back on his

impeccable shirt, which gave me such envy: Why did he only

appear dirty from his knees to his boots, I asked myself after the

many hours that he had been sitting in front of me. On the other

hand, in this humidity and the other conditions of the placewhere the interview had been held, I felt disgusting from the top

of my head to the bottom of my feet.


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And then this mixture of humor and rebellion that he kept up

despite the isolation in which he was living; as well as having

up-to-date information, which allowed him not only to talk about

national questions, but also about the issues of globalization and

its economic project, that is so in vogue... but also about thestrategy of this project with regards to the armed forces of our

countries.

I said to Marcos that, just when the transnational financial capital

is celebrating its triumph with a great party, they, the Zapatistas,

appear. What type of future then can the Zapatista project have?

--It is the only one with a future--he responded to me strongly--:the globalization project world-wide is a failure and has only

generated its opposite. Not only have nation states not

disappeared, (to be absorbed into a great global state), as was

planned--this is the central thesis of neoliberalism and its native

equivalents like Salinas or Menem--, but rather what it has done

is to further fragment the national states into pieces. As a result,what it is succeeding in doing is to complicate even more the

social problem, the economic issues, and the problem of global

development.

"And now comes the issues about the military: regarding the

military, this strategy continues along the same line: we

incorporate one capital, one business: Earth, Inc., and this hasjust one army, one single security force, and one grand military

police. We absorb all the armies, or in other words, a rehearsal ofthe NATO.

"But what occurs is exactly the opposite: the borders aren't

erased, but rather multiplied, and the armies aren't simply

absorbed into one large one, but rather they are divided intomany. There's the example of Yugoslavia, and that of the former


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USSR, with the conflict of Chechenia. Military men who once

fought together now fight against one another.

"I believe that what the process of globalization produces-- he

said with assurance-- is to send the idiots to the dogs, since now

they don't have a prisoner, they end up attacking themselves.And as a necessity the armies are contaminated. Because the

function of an army to ensure the existence of the national State.If this national state begins to come apart, the army is not

subordinate, but rather begins to turn on itself.

--And in the case of the Mexican National Army? The case of

Mexico and the Mexican Army could be even more dramaticstill, because in Mexico it is possible to distinguish various

regions completely distinct from one another, like nation states.

In general terms, the North, the Southeast and the Center. This

three, at least, have very different problems. One could talk of

even three different countries at the economic, political, cultural

and social levels.

Marcos referred to the nationalist tradition of the Mexican

National Army, and recognized the presence in it of "military

men of honor".

"The Mexican army, amongst the armies of Latin America, has

always had an attitude of relative autonomy, with regard to theNorth American military policy. As a fact the career military

men, those whom we call "military men of honor" are military

men because they believe in the military career, not because they

are looking for a salary. They are or were proud to belong to the

armed forces. A group very similar to the Mexican foreign

service and their career diplomats.

"A few were very proud of the progressive and independent linethat had been maintained. But precisely because of this line the


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Mexican military men have been a problem for the North

American military men, that they are now seeking to resolve

through its project to create a continental military force: the

equivalent of NATO, but in Latin America."

--Could the United States or the Pentagon achieve its objective?

-- No, I believe that the result that it is going to produce isexactly the opposite, which is a delicate issue for the Mexican

Army: "It was thought that Europe would unite more, and now it

is more divided than in the Second World War. In the plans itwas said: one sole world, one sole leader, one sole boss, the

United States of North America. And now we have a world thatis much more divided. There isn't even a military control over

one or the other forces. And they have achieved what no one

believed was possible: export Beirut (export the horror) to other

countries: Yugoslavia, Russia, Europe... and soon others will

follow, like Spain, Italy, and other countries, both developed and

underdeveloped. All of this, under the guise or the argument thatit is about inter-ethnic struggles.

"And this--restated Marcos--is the project of the right at the

global level: a deferred crisis, permanent, until the crisis makes

itself stable, which is to say that to be in crisis is to be stable, that

you become accustomed to living in crisis. That you become

accustomed to see deaths, assassinations, bombings,everything...Yugoslavia, but throughout the entire world, in

Mexico.

--Why?--I asked, horrified.

--It is like this because the most powerful money is the financial

one and it has no fatherland. To it it does not matter if the statesare all one or they split up. It has nothing to lose, it does not have


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a factory, a piece of land; it does not have a business. It has

money, and it can move it wherever it wants.

--Why did you mention Mexico?

Because in Mexico the governing class, the stock market andothers have been very sensitive to the process of globalization, to

the point of putting it above all values, or supposed ethics ormorals, and I don't refer to ethical values or religious morals, but

rather what used to be called a love of one's country or sense of

nation.

"In this I believe that Chomskyis right when he says: the nationstates are ending, the powerful classes or the national

government leaders are disappearing; there no longer is a

national political class; there are administrators of businesses

with branches.

Marcos became serious, very serious, when he warned: "There

the bet will be whether among the Mexican political class that isin power there are still groups or factions who still feel what has

no explanation or what is felt here in one's chest: what isnationalism, the love of nationhood, of history, of

fatherland...and then they put themselves on the side of their

country."

It now was night, and the interview still had not ended. Our onlylight came from candles. Raul Ortega could hardly see to take his

last shots, and used the flash. Marcos lit his pipe, keeping the

flame of his match lit, and looking at it for awhile, giving Raul

time to take the photo.

--How is Marcos and what is going to happen to him?--I asked

him.
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Marcos is in perfect health--he said rising from the bench and

sticking out his chest, while letting go with a laugh.

--No, I'm serious. How do you feel? Seriously?

Well, I feel very persecuted. They want to kill me! And knowingthat they want to kill you, believe me, is not a very agreeable

feeling, we could say.

"In addition, now with the certitude, that of those from the other

side, with whom previously one could talk with, now you can

only expect betrayal.

"All of the military movements that are going on, including the

ruses of the vaccination campaigns, humanitarian aid, have in

reality the objective of finding us, of knowing where we are, in

order to be able to carry out military action. Although according

to them--he said shrugging his shoulders--the CIA already knows

where I am and is only waiting for the opportune moment to

strike the blow, or in other words, the surgical operation that forsome time they have been preparing.

Marcos, denounced the intervention of the US in Chiapas: "We

know that the North American government is very involved in

the assassination project, to the extent that its satellites are

interfering with our communications, and they are passing on the

recordings to the Mexican government, which does not have thetechnology to intercept these communications. The North

American government does, and is using it; this we have

confirmed. Said in passing, as a greeting to Mr. Clinton...

--You probably feel very much under attack, is that true?

-- Yes, and look, perhaps it is for this reason that we have beenso clumsy in certain things, like for example, in the criticism that

we made about Aedepech, when they negotiated with Dante


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--No--he explained--we are asking anyone to believe in us. We

are not ordering them to: Give up your idols, come with us, we

are the right ones.

"What we are saying to the people is: destroy everything, make

something new, Use us! Use even our blood. Because there issomething more, more than where we were in 1985, more than in

1988, that is not Cardenas, more than in 94, that is not theEZLN.

--If the EZLN sees itself obliged to become a political force,what will happen to the weapons?

--A political force has to incorporate in an organized way other

forms of struggle, that are neither armed struggle or clandestine,

which is what makes an army like ours.

--But you have said that the weapons are not up for discussion,

that you will not put them down...

--That's how it is, but then we would become a structure that

without giving up our weapons, could lead other forms ofstruggle, but that are not necessarily looking to take power.

"For this reason I distinguish between a political party and a

political force: a political party is in fact defined by the effort to

take power. A political force doesn't, not necessarily.

--What would the EZLN offer, as a political force, to the other

sectors of society, and not just to the indigenous people?

--What the EZLN has to offer to the Mexican society is someone

who listens to their demands, and pays attention to them, that

takes them into account. We constructed this culture, and welearned to do it, because that's how we grew, if not we would

have continued only being eight or twelve people.


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--And it the majority do not vote in favor of your becoming a

political force, but rather that you unite with another party

organization?

--We do not know what is going to happen: if we are going to

become a political party, if we are going to vie for positions inpopular elections or are we going to be a movement without

being a political party, without becoming a legal entity, butrather simply mobilizing people, putting together demands, or in

other words, acting as a counterweight to those in power in order

to keep them in check, I don't know. What we do guarantee is

that whoever comes to us, we will listen to them, we will takethem into account like we are taking them into account now,

with the Plebiscite, in deciding what we are going to do.

--And the weapons?

--We are not going to give up our weapons because they are our

means of survival. But we are willing not to use them-- except in

self-defense--if there is some other way. In other words, we will

not resort to using weapons to obtain what we want.

--And is there another way?

--I don't know. The Plebiscite is the first step in finding out.

--What are you hoping for, you specifically, from thegovernment?

--Death...

--But if the Plebiscite goes better than expected...

--No, look, nothing can be hoped for from the government:: Why

didn't it dialogue with a force that has six million recognized


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votes, like the PRD, or the National Action Party (PAN), which

had 17 million votes?

--Well, it has dialogued with some people, including all of you.

--Yes, it's spend seven months dialoguing with us, without anypositive results. As a result the country is in uncertainty and

distrust regarding the process of dialogue.

--However the dialogue continues.

--Yes, but it is because above all the government needs to appear

that it is governing. And it can't even do this well, like Salinasdid. Salinas was able to maintain the appearance of governing,

even with murders and everything else that you could imagine...

But Zedillo can't even maintain this appearance, and the murders

continue...

--It is said that in his State of Nation, President Zedillo is going

to announce a very ambitious plan for Chiapas. In what waywould this plan influence or affect the communities?

--No, look--he responded softly--: the lies have never had an

affect. In addition, regardless of what they say, they don't have

any money."

--And the participation of the World Bank in this plan?

--The World Bank is not going to risk anything until it has the oil

in its hands. But for this to happen, two things have to happen:

one, eliminate the EZLN, and two, they have to dismantle the

indigenous communities; which is to say, destroy them

culturally. This is the government's project, the project of the

Pentagon, or even higher than the Pentagon: the social andcultural destruction of the communities.


23/25

And this is when Marcos' expression changed. He lowered his

voice. A heavy shadow fell over his face:

"Look, what is going to do damage is the prostitution that is

coming in, the alcoholism...The incorporation of the indigenous

world or of that part of the indigenous world that was isolated inthe Canyons and the Highlands, from the worst of Mexico: the

Mexico as consumer, the prostituted Mexico..."

--What can be done then?

--To trust, or bet on their tradition of resistance, like what is

preserved in the Highlands of Chiapas, more than in the Jungle.Return to the teachings of Old Anthony which was what

converted the EZLN into what it is today: a very flexible

organization.

"The secret of the indigenous resistance since the Conquest- -

says Old Anthony--is that it knows that when they are being

beaten, they can't always take a hard line, that sometimes it isbetter to be flexible.

--In the face of the panorama that you described earlier, isn't the

EZLN and even the civil society a very small force, a very weak

one?

--No, no we aren't so small, you will see--and the light returnedto his eyes--"Let's put things in perspective: How many of those

on the other side are willing to die for what they believe, and

how many of this side are willing to die for they believe in? You

are going to see that there are many more of us on this side. Theother side is not going to have many...

--Do you think that there are many Mexicans willing to die indefense of their culture, of their oil and the other resources?


24/25

--No, I am thinking of the small group of Mexicans in the EZLN

who are willing to die, he said, amused in the face of my

solemnity. And he explained to me:

--"Look, what's going on is that there is a difference between

these and those: the difference is that we believe in what we aredoing, and that's it".

--After the "retreat" of last February 9 or ...

--Say it, say it--Marcos encouraged me--"after we ran, isn't that

what you wanted to say?"

"Yes, after not having confronted militarily the army's offensive,

the military force of the EZLN shrunk a great deal.

--Look, the military force of the EZLN is intact, which is to say,

we still have our weapons, we have experience in combat, and

we have not been defeated.

--There are those who say that it has grown enormously.

--It has grown, but we say that it is not in significant amounts,

which is to say, we maintain our balance. Where there has been

very considerable growth is in the political arena.

--And if the military option is imposed over the dialogue?

--The first thing that would happen is to make a surgical blow at

the head, to remove the tumor. Then they would massively

expand the military presence: a camp in each community, and

along with this military presence, continue forward with the

social decomposition: prostitution, drinking, commercialization,

the gradual loss of the indigenous identity, culture, and its

project. A brain wash: erase history, erase that part that theEZLN talks about.


25/25

--This would be an intermittent war, but they could be so stupid

as to opt for genocide. Because in the end, in war there is no

control. There's the case of Ocosingo in 1994..."

--You really believe this?

--Yes, but not even like this are they going to beat us, because

war, and especially modern war, is not just an armedconfrontation. War is, above all, a political confrontation, and in

some of its facets, but hardly ever in the determining ones, is it

military.

--Where are the modern wars carried out, Marcos?

--In the communication media. It doesn't matter how much

actual physical damage you do to the enemy, which is much

more expensive, what matters is to appear to have destroyed him.

"This is the war that we are in today".

--What do you regret, Marcos?

--Of having given you this interview, he said laughing.

interview with marcos - august 1995

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