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Interview with Armstong Edward Manuel August 11, 1994 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South New Iberia (La.) Interviewer: Felix Armfield ID: btvct06054 Interview Number: 778

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Interview with Armstong Edward Manuel (btvct06054), interviewed by Felix Armfield, New Iberia (La.), August 11, 1994, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995)  

COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture

at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library

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Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University "Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South" Armstrong Edward Manuel D.O.B.: August 2, 1927 Interviewer: Felix L. Armfield August 11, 1994

Felix Armfield: Today is August 11, 1994. I'm Felix Armfield,

the interviewer and I'm about to interview Mr. Armstrong Manuel

at his home at 1406 Neco Town Rd. Mr. Manuel, would you state

your full name for the record please.

Armstrong Manuel: Armstrong Manuel.

FA: And Mr. Manuel, how long have you lived here in New Iberia?

AM: All my days.

FA: Born and raised right here?

AM: Born and raised right here in New Iberia.

FA: What end of town were you born?

AM: This is the east end but we're sort of in the country. I'm

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out of the city limits. The city limits starts up there at ( )

Drive which is, you passed it coming this way.

FA: ( ) Drive?

AM: Yeah, that's the city limits. So we are out of the city

limits here.

FA: Now what end of town did you grow up in? Did you grow up

out here in the country or were you in the city?

AM: I was born on East Main Street where the hospital is now,

Iberia General.

FA: And there were homes out on that...?

AM: There were homes there, even the quarters. I lived in a

quarter, not a big plantation but a small one, had quarter

houses.

FA: Did you?

AM: Yeah, that's where I was born at.

FA: So was that like a farm area out there?

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AM: Oh, yeah.

FA: Who did the farm belong to?

AM: The farm belonged to Fred Littlemeyer.

FA: And that was who the family was working for at that time?

AM: That's who my family worked for at that time and living

on...

FA: ( )?

AM: My dad was the overseer and he worked for the farm. But

the farm was for this Fred Littlemeyer fellah.

FA: And this was a white family?

AM: Oh yeah, that was a white family.

FA: Now when you say you lived in the quarters there, were only

black people living in the quarters or were there white quarters

there or did everybody live together out there?

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AM: No, there in the quarters where we were was all black. But

then they had one white family lived across the street which

worked for the farm too.

FA: But the white family didn't live...?

AM: Oh no, they didn't live in the black quarters, oh no.

FA: When were you born, Mr. Manuel?

AM: What year?

FA: Un-huh. What's your birthdate?

AM: I was born in 1927.

FA: What month and day?

AM: Eighth month, second day, August 2, 1927. That was the

year of the high water, yes. I hear about it now. I was born

that year but I don't remember that.

FA: Do you ever hear your parents talk about how they fared

during the high water? Were they affected by the high water?

5

AM: Yes, they were affected by the high water but they didn't

leave because our house in the quarter was the only two story

house and they went upstairs because the water took the

downstairs.

FA: And did the other black families join them in the upstairs?

AM: No, I think they had to move. My family said they stayed

because they didn't want to move and the water didn't rise too

high for a two story house. But all the bottom was...

FA: More or less destroyed?

AM: Oh, yeah.

FA: So you were born in 1927 just two years because the great

Depression set in.

AM: That's right. The Depression was in the, I say the early

thirties to my knowledge. But I was a little baby boy at that

time.

FA: Do you recall seeing your parents having to do things

because the Depression was going on?

6

AM: I had an interview on that not too long ago, a high school

student. This is it. My family lived through the Depression

but we never had it hard because my daddy was a farmer. We

raised everything that we ate. It was only clothing we had to

buy and that was minimal in the line of clothing that we had to

wear. You know, black folks didn't have to dress up all that

much back in those days. If you had clean clothes you was

alright, even to go to church. We had a priest, I'm Catholic,

and our priest back then said if you came to church in your

overalls with the jumper, that was fine because it wasn't what

you wore it was what you came to church for, to worship. And

black people didn't have a whole lot of clothes but they didn't

bother about a whole lot of clothes. My family had everything

when it came to eating. We raised everything. We raised hogs,

chickens, cattle, you name it. We raised all the vegetables you

can think of just about, some we don't even raise today. Don't

even find them in the supermarket today. We raised that back

then. My daddy used to raise his own coffee beans.

FA: Really? On the farm?

AM: That's right, on the farm we raised coffee, grow them

coffee beans, ground the coffee ourselves. We had the coffee

grinder. We had the corn sheller. Because back in them days,

well corn meal, we didn't have anything to grind the corn meal

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but we had to go down to the mill they called it where they made

corn meal and hominy grits.

FA: Oh, so you made you own grits?

AM: Well, the little mill down the street did. We didn't make

it.

FA: You'd take what?

AM: We took the corn what we raised and brought it down there

and they'd grind it because we couldn't grind it. We didn't

have anything to grind the corn. We had something to shell the

corn with.

FA: So you made your own grits?

AM: Yeah, yeah. We even back in those days brought our own

sugar cane to the syrup mill to make our own syrup. Now this is

years ago. They don't do that today hardly, not grind your

sugar cane to make your syrup. The syrup mill will grind sugar

cane and make syrup to sell you.

FA: I never knew sugar cane was such an industry until I came

to Louisiana.

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AM: Oh yeah, that's the industry in this area, not in the whole

state of Louisiana. But this area, the southern part of

Louisiana, here is sugar cane. Northern part it's different.

If you went up around, anywhere beyond Erath going up toward

Shreveport and north Louisiana, up there Bastrop and all that

stuff, Monroe and stuff, the crops are different and you've got

a lot of timber there. It's like you're close to Arkansas and

that's all timber land up in that area. But in this area we're

the sweetest, we're the hottest, we're the saltiest, we're the

peppersist. You're in the part where you raise pepper, you

raise sugar cane and they make salt. They've got salt mines all

out here.

FA: I didn't realize that until I came down here that there

were so many salt mines. You all provide the salt for all parts

of the world.

AM: That's right, right here. You've got Weeks, Jefferson and

Avery's and we've got Cort Blanc, all salt mines in this area.

FA: Go through that again, southern Louisiana is the sweetest,

the saltiest, and the hottest...

AM: Hottest with the peppers. What did I miss?

9

FA: Well, you've got the sweetest with the sugar cane, the

saltiest with the salt mines, the hottest with the heat down

here.

AM: No, no, no. The hottest with the peppers.

FA: Oh, the hottest with the peppers.

AM: Pepper is hot. The sweetest, the hottest, the saltiest,

pepperist.

FA: Well, you told me this before, you said the sweetest was

from the sugar, the saltiest from the salt, the hottest from the

heat.

AM: No, no, the peppers.

FA: And the spiciest was from the peppers.

AM: Well, you can go that route. That would be fine with me.

FA: But at any rate, it's definitely the sweetest, the saltiest

and the hottest.

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AM: Yeah.

FA: So back up just a minute to a statement or at least your

reaction to a statement that I asked a little earlier on. You

talked about the quarters and how you and the other black people

who worked there for the Littlemeyers lived in the quarters but

the fact that there was a black family that lived across the

street.

AM: A white family lived across the street.

FA: Oh, a white family that lived across the street.

AM: Right.

FA: That worked for?

AM: For Littlemeyer.

FA: They did not live in the quarters?

AM: Oh, no.

FA: Now why do you frown such and say no, no, no?

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AM: (Laughter) That might be an expression. But it's just a

fact, the whites did not live in the quarter with the black.

There was no whites in the quarter with the blacks. That's why

he lived across the street which is on the side where

Littlemeyer lived but he did work on the farm just like the

blacks did.

FA: They worked right along side you?

AM: Right along with us.

FA: But the fact here is that the house that the white family

lived in belonged to the Littlemeyers also?

AM: Oh, yeah.

FA: Were you treated any differently? Be honest.

AM: I'm being honest. We were treated like blacks and they

were treated like whites and there was a difference. You didn't

have a mixture like we have today. The whites had their place

and the blacks had their place. Even when you went to church

the whites and the blacks didn't sit together until we had a

black church. Now by the time I come along we had a black

church, St. Edward's. But my mother and daddy when they were

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younger went to St. Peter's Church which was the white church

because they didn't have a black church. My mother and daddy is

buried in the white cemetery because they had a plot before we

had a black cemetery and it's right by the street. That man

there had that plot early, early on because it's right up to the

sidewalk.

FA: So your parents and their generation and those that

preceded them, in fact they were all buried in the same cemetery

because you were buried according to your church you are saying?

AM: Right.

FA: And at this time you are talking about obviously before the

1920's?

AM: In the 1920's because I was born in 1927. By the time I

was born St. Edward's was in existence. Barely, it was new, but

it was in existence. I'm talking about my when my mother and

daddy had to go to church and go to school. I don't even know

where my daddy went to school. I don't know. I'm the baby so

my sisters and brothers were there before me and I'm sixty-seven

years old so that's putting us way back there you see. I was

born in 1927. I only went to St. Edward's. I never did go to

any other school but now doesn't mean there wasn't black

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churches what had cemeteries. I'm talking about the Catholic,

there was only that one church and everybody Catholic went to

that church that was buried in that cemetery.

FA: What do you recall having heard your parents say about how

they were treated at St. Peter's as opposed to St. Edward's?

Did your parents live long enough to be members at St. Edward's?

AM: Oh, yes.

FA: So was it a clear understanding that once St. Edward's was

built, all the black people that had been attending St. Peter's

then began going to St. Edward's?

AM: Had to go to St. Edward's.

FA: What was that situation, were they kicked out of St.

Edward's?

AM: Oh, yes. Until integration they did not go to St. Peter's

anymore because that was a white church. Once they built a

black church all the blacks had to go to the black Catholic

church which was St. Edward's.

FA: Do you know why blacks were kicked out of St. Peter's?

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AM: Simply for the fact that we didn't have integration then

and there was a black church so then it was no longer mandatory

that they had to go to St. Peter's and once they had a church to

go to, it was better for them than going to St. Peter's and

having to set in this little corner...

FA: So they had a little corner there?

AM: Oh yeah, that was just for blacks, just a little spot which

wasn't very big. Now this is my family, my parents telling me

that.

FA: So all the black people...

AM: Had to crowd in that little corner. So naturally they

didn't want them there in the first place and whenever they had

a church then they went to St. Edward's which is still in

existence today. However, there is more than one Catholic

church now and you can go to...

FA: But that was just the old one?

AM: Right, and you can go to any one now. You can go to St.

Peter's now and you sit anywhere you want in St. Peter's today.

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There is no more segregation in these churches. But there was.

FA: When did that occur? When did blacks and whites start

going to the same Catholic churches here in the area because

when you were growing up, that was not the case?

AM: No, no, no, that was not until they passed integration in

the late 1950's or early 1960's.

FA: So blacks and whites did not start mingling in each other's

churches...

AM: Until they forced integration in the schools.

FA: And that's when the church did also?

AM: The church had to accept them too because then there was no

more segregation so to speak. People segregated themselves

though and they still do. But it was not forced segregation no

more. It was forced integration though. Oh, they forced

integration and this is one of the stories that my wife likes to

hear me tell about forced integration. Because when they forced

integration in the schools I opposed it because I felt if you

had equal facilities for the black children as well as the white

children, the books and everything, and they would have forced

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equalization at that time the blacks would have been further

advanced than they are today to me. Because if you had

equalization then the white man would have accepted you better

than he did by them forcing integration on him and he still

wasn't equal. And today they feel as though you're still not

equal. We've come a long ways but we're not tee totally there

you know.

FA: So you supported more or less the equalization of public

schools rather than integration?

AM: Oh yes, oh yes, that's the way I felt. And I feel like

that today it still would work. I'm going to tell you my

theory. If you had equalization, those black teachers teaching

those black children, they would progress faster than they did

after they had integration. The black teachers had to teach the

white children, the white children were negative towards the

black teachers. The white teachers had to teach the black

children, they were negative towards them. That's backed up

education instead of advanced it in my book. I'm not saying

everybody because everybody didn't see it the way I see it, all

they wanted was integration. There were a lot of black people

felt like integration was the thing that they wanted and that

was the best. But let me tell you what it did. In my world, it

backed up the black man far back further than it was before

17

because when you didn't have integration if a black man opened a

little grocery store on the corner, they patronized it. If a

black man would have opened a little old bitty service station

and had one pump, they would buy gas from him. But then when

they had integration and you could go to that big fancy service

station and them white people let you use the restroom - because

you knew you couldn't go to their restroom at that white service

station, you went to a black service station where you could use

the facilities. The black man got put out of business because

the black people brought all their business to the white man.

And it only stands to logic, that's what integration brought.

Equalization would have never brought that.

FA: So you think that basically the black people prospered

economically from segregation? That economically we benefitted

from separate facilities?

AM: Right.

FA: Because we were forced to frequent our own businesses

simply because we were not allowed to attend or enter white

facilities.

AM: Right. You didn't go to a McDonald's back then if they had

one because they had a little bitty window over here for blacks

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and the whole big place was for whites. You didn't go in there,

you went to the window and got what you had to get. So you went

to a black restaurant and ate. The black restaurants now,

they're all closed. There is no black restaurant in New Iberia

open today behind integration. Now that's from a businessman's

standpoint. That's not from that dude on the corner because he

wanted to go to that white place to be where them white folks

were and he was able to do that.

FA: What was life like here in the 1930's and 1940's? By that

time you have a vivid memory. You were aware and alert of your

surroundings.

AM: Those are the times I'm talking about.

FA: When did you begin school or where did you go to school

here?

AM: I went to school at St. Edward's. I started school when I

was a tiny tot I would say. I can't remember.

FA: How much education did you receive, Mr. Manuel?

AM: I went up to the seventh grade. I did not go to high

school.

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FA: And this was at St. Edward's?

AM: No, no. I went to St. Edwards's until the fifth grade.

Sixth and seventh I went to public school because we moved from

up there where I told you I was born in the quarters, we moved

in this house here. My daddy built this house in 1938. I was

born in 1927, we moved out here in 1938. So I was like eleven

years old. I was still going to public school because they had

a little one room school down the road there and I went there

through the fifth grade. It went from one through fifth. Now I

went to St. Edward's until we moved out here so I must have went

out there probably the fourth and fifth grade. Sixth and

seventh grade I had to go back to New Iberia because it only

went to fifth grade out here and I went downtown to Lee Street

Elementary sixth and seventh grades and then I dropped out. My

daddy was in his older years and I had to come work on the farm.

So I worked on the farm then.

FA: Now did you all own the farm?

AM: My daddy owned this farm where I'm living now. We got

fifty acres here.

FA: All this farm land out there is the land that your father

20

was farming?

AM: Right, after he left the quarters.

FA: Beginning in 1938 when you moved up here?

AM: Right.

FA: How did your father manage to buy this property out here?

AM: That's a good story you're asking. Fifty acres, my daddy

and...

FA: Fifty acres was the original acreage that your father

bought in 1938?

AM: No, not in 1938, he bought it probably earlier than that

because he owned this because he started working it. But I've

got to tell you a story. Him and his brother bought it together

because one couldn't afford to buy this and it was sold for four

hundred dollars. I've got the deed. Fifty acres of land for

four hundred dollars and it took two of them to buy it. My

daddy and his brother bought it together and his brother worked

it, was trying to work it rather and then he realized fifty

acres was too much for him to work with the little mules he had.

21

So my dad built this house and left the plantation and moved

out here and my daddy bought him out so then my daddy acquired

the whole fifty acres.

FA: He bought his brother out?

AM: Bought his brother out and he owned the whole fifty acres

and he worked it himself.

FA: Your father had been saving money in the quarters

obviously. How did he manage to save money working for this

white man?

AM: Okay, let me give you a, everything was so much cheaper

than they are today. Those people worked back then for seventy-

five cents a day. Not an hour, seventy-five cents a day. You

had people working by the day. I can remember when they started

getting a dollar a day. I worked in the field for the ( ) when

I was still living up there.

FA: Who?

AM: ( ). He was the next door.

FA: I don't know how to spell that.

22

AM: No, I don't know how to spell it either. You might look in

the phone book if you want to get the correct spelling for it.

But my dad, when they caught up, for me to make extra money he

would let me go because everything was with mules, there was no

tractors like we've got today and when they would lay by the

crop, they called that lay by, they would go in there and bust

the middles but you had to have one mule ahead of the other so

we would around and lead mules, us kids, they didn't take an

adult for that, they would hire kids. We would work for twenty-

five cents a day and that was big money.

FA: Twenty-five cents?

AM: Yes, indeed.

FA: When are you talking about you did that kind of work?

AM: We did that kind of work in the summer because school was

out by then.

FA: What year, about the 1920's and 1930's?

AM: Oh yeah, that's in the early 1930's. I'm talking about,

let's see, we moved out here in 1938, this was probably 1935,

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1936, something like that. Maybe even 1937 because I didn't

work long for the ( ) and I only worked there part-time. That

was like in the summer. When school let out we would go and

ride the lead mules for ( ).

FA: And they'd pay you twenty-five cents a day?

AM: That's right.

FA: Work all day long?

AM: Twenty-five cents.

FA: How far did twenty-five cents go?

AM: Twenty-five cents went a long way back then because you had

tokens back then and ten tokens would equal a penny and you

could go to the store and buy some sugar, they had loose stuff

then, probably a half a pound of sugar with a token or two

tokens.

FA: You mean you'd just go in and they'd weigh everything for

you?

AM: Yeah, everything was loose.

24

FA: Bulk?

AM: Yeah bulk bags, a hundred pounds of flour, a hundred pounds

of sugar. You didn't have all of this packaged stuff.

FA: You didn't know go in and buy a five pound bag?

AM: No, no five pound package. It was all loose and they

bagged it in the store for you. Oh, yes. We kids would get up

ten tokens if we had a penny we could go buy about five pounds

of sugar and make kool-aid with it or sweet water. Not even

kool-aid. They'd didn't have the little kool-aid like we've got

today. We'd have lemon and make lemonade with it or just

sweetened water. Sweetened water was a treat to us, man.

(Laughter) Not soda pop like we've got today, sweetened water.

Oh yeah, little kids would go wild over that. Sweetened water

was a big thing. That's right. And we'd go and buy sugar with

a penny or some tokens. And they would give you a little small

candy for ( ). You've heard of ( )?

FA: What does ( ) mean?

AM: ( ) was something for nothing. They gave you that because

you bought something else.

25

FA: Okay, so you went in the store and you bought cookies and

you say ( ), that meant give me more, give me extra?

AM: Well, you could say ( ) and they might give you more but

then they may give you ( ) on your own. That depends on how

the white person felt in the store.

FA: ( ) is a French word I assume?

AM: I would imagine so.

FA: Because you all have used it a lot here and I'd never heard

the term until I came here to Louisiana and I had this other

woman tell me about it, remember we used to go get ( ) and I

was like well, what is ( ) mean. She said oh, it just means

extra. They'd give us ( ).

AM: Right. Now that was the word for it. I'm like you, that

could be a French word. You would have to look it up. I don't

know how it's spelled. They don't use it no more. I only heard

of it when I was a kid. You can't go in the store and ask for

no ( ) today. There's no such thing.

FA: I'm going to spell it the best I can anyway. But ( )

26

meant extra?

AM: Right. That was something for nothing.

FA: Did your parents speak any of the broken Creole language?

AM: My dad did.

FA: You father spoke in the Creole language?

AM: Yeah.

FA: Where was your father originally from?

AM: My father was originally from right down the road. His

daddy owned a lot of property down this road.

FA: Now if his father owned that property down there how did he

end up working for a white man over in the quarters?

AM: Oh okay, when my dad grew up like his children did, we all

left home, they left and went on their own. My dad, when he

first left home - my dad was married twice, he had two sets of

kids - my dad bought a piece of property out there what they

call ( ) Point. That's out there by ( ) Bayou. That's where

27

his first kids were raised. Then when we were raised he was

over here with Fred Littlemeyer.

FA: Did your grandfather maintain the property down the road?

AM: As far as I know he maintained it as long as he was living

and those kids probably did work for him when they were kids.

But my dad was up in age by the time I was born.

FA: So what happened to the property once your grandfather

died?

AM: It's still there.

FA: And it's still family property?

AM: It's still family property.

FA: So you can say that rightfully the property belongs to you?

AM: Oh, no, my dad's part, you see that went to my

grandfather's children which would be my daddy, his sisters, his

brothers. And they all got their, we got some down there, yeah.

We've got like a ten acre tract down there.

28

FA: Okay. So you do have some.

AM: We do have some down there, yes.

FA: It sounds like it's heir to heir property. You can't sell

it. The only thing it can do is go to your children when you're

dead, that portion that belongs to you?

AM: Not necessarily so. If all of us wanted to sell it, yeah

we could, my daddy's children.

FA: Everybody would have to agree to it.

AM: My daddy's children, yes. Even if my daddy's children, we

would have to get together, I don't want this.

FA: You're rightfully you father's child.

AM: Yeah, but I'm not his only child.

FA: No, it is the family property.

AM: Yes, indeed. And that down there would be his family's.

FA: I'm sure he'd be delighted to know somebody's kids would

29

keep it in the family.

AM: I'm the only one. I don't have any sisters or brothers

here. My sisters, one is in Brooklyn, New York, one is in San

Francisco, California and I've got one brother living and he

lives in Antioch, California. There is no sister or brother of

mine here in New Iberia.

FA: I want to know how your grandfather got that property.

AM: I don't know. I don't know because my grandfather's father

was a slave and that possibly could be how they acquired it. I

don't know. I'm not...

FA: Sounds like that property has been in the family hands a

long time.

AM: Oh, it has.

FA: At least by now a hundred years or so.

AM: I bet. My daddy had this.

FA: It would be worth looking into.

30

AM: Yeah.

FA: Just so that you would know how the family came about this

property. Because you know the interesting thing is, what I'm

trying to point out is that in the 1930's and 1940's black

people had property. Black people had property galore but after

the 1930's and 1940's many, many, the vast majority of black

people lost their property. They lost property either to local

white farmers or to the federal government.

AM: Un-huh.

FA: But your family was able to hold onto their's.

AM: No, they did not lose it.

FA: Obviously somebody knew business in the family and knew

what had to be done.

AM: Well, my daddy was a farmer so that was his business at

that time, that was a commodity.

FA: A lot of the farmers they were rightfully so farmers but

the thing that was lacking was they had been poorly educated so

often times they didn't know how to read or write and they

31

didn't understand all the fanagaling that was going on or

sometimes the legalities involved. Sometimes they discovered

that when they thought they were paying property taxes, in fact

the records didn't reflect that they had paid property taxes.

AM: A lot of them, that's how they lost it. This is what I

think back then, that's why I say blacks not necessarily were

educated but they had...

FA: We've never been a people without common sense.

AM: That's what I'm talking about. They had good common sense.

In my family that's what I think tied them over, common sense.

Not education because my daddy was not educated either. Trust

me, my daddy was...

FA: He knew how to make a living.

AM: Oh yes, he knew how to make a living. That's right.

That's all it was. He was not educated. But he made a living

running his own farm.

FA: It's a fascinating story that a family here in the deep

south and not only acquired property a hundred years ago but

they still own that property. You all have held onto your

32

property and that's a feat within itself.

AM: The property that my daddy bought, you're looking at fifty-

some years. This house was built in 1938 and my daddy had

already owned this property. His daddy had owned all that

property down Neco Town Road which is still belonging to the

family. Each child had their part and they're dead. None of

his children are living, my grandfather's children. I don't

have any uncles or aunts living. They're all dead. But that

property is now to their children. But it's still in the

family.

FA: Did you recall other black farmers in and around you at the

time when your grandfather owned that down the road and when

your father bought this, were there other black farmers in the

area?

AM: They had some of that property just across the street right

there. Sold it or lost it, I don't know how it was but it

belonged to some ( ).

FA: And they were black, ( )?

AM: Yeah.

33

FA: Okay.

AM: And that went to David Mayes. How he acquired it, I don't

know.

FA: So you've seen black farmers?

AM: Oh, yeah. Now my uncle had some over there what belongs to

David Mayes. One of my daddy's brothers used to live across

there too. Had his own farm back up in there. He don't own

that no more. I don't know, I was here when all this...

FA: But you've seen black farmers lose property to whites ( ).

AM: Yeah, right. Bought it, dwindled it, whatever. You see

what they would do, they would mortgage their property to these

white folks and then they'd go get another second mortgage and

the next thing you know, the first mortgage bought the second

mortgage and took the property.

FA: Oh, that's how it would happen?

AM: Oh yeah, that's how it would happen. Or the second

mortgage would buy the first mortgage or whatever way you want

it and then the black person who had it loses it. But then he

34

lost it because he got himself in too deep, you see.

FA: And that happened ( ).

AM: It did happen though.

FA: The record clearly shows that it happened and it happened a

lot back then.

AM: Oh, yes. It sure did.

FA: Did you serve in either of the wars?

AM: No.

FA: How did you manage not to?

AM: Deferred.

FA: How did you get deferred?

AM: I was working in the farm. I was working for my daddy

then.

FA: Now that's interesting because did your father just handle

35

things so far as making certain that the records showed that you

were working for him and that you got deferred?

AM: Yes.

FA: Because I've talked to several people who got deferred from

World War II but they got them because white landowners...

AM: Well, that would have been the case had it happened that

way but no, my daddy was a farmer and if you worked on the farm

and you had proof that you had acreage to work then yeah, you

could get deferred and that's what happened in my case.

FA: Now were you the only male child at home at the time, your

father's only male child that was home at the time of the war?

AM: Yes. My brothers went.

FA: Oh, and he was your older brother?

AM: Right. You see they went before and I was the only one

staying here with my daddy and I was the only one left to work

on the farm because my older brothers went in the service. I

was the only one that didn't go.

36

FA: And all your brothers made it back home safely from the

war?

AM: Yeah. Had two older brothers.

FA: And they both served in World War II?

AM: Right.

FA: What kinds of things were you and your father growing here

on the farm?

AM: Sugar cane.

FA: You grew sugar cane?

AM: Oh, yes.

FA: How much sugar cane would you plant, fifty acres? Would

most of the land be sugar cane?

AM: Most of it would be sugar cane, yes. We had a little corn.

FA: This was about the time of the war, right?

37

AM: Oh yeah, you see I would have still been too little but by

the time of the war I was old enough then to have to be deferred

because I was old enough to probably go in the service.

FA: How is the sugar cane grown and the harvesting process? I

don't know anything about sugar cane so if you can tell me.

AM: Okay, the planting season is now, starting now. It used to

be September you planted. These farmers have gotten so big and

so big til they have to start planting in August now to be

through by the time harvest takes because as soon as you get

through planting you're already into harvesting. But these

farmers have so much to plant until they'll be up til the latter

part of September planting, they'll still be planting. And the

latter part of September now you start grinding, at least by the

first of October for the mills to be able to grind all the sugar

cane by the first of the year because none of those mills hardly

run after the first of the year.

FA: Is that the way things were done when you and your father

were growing sugar cane?

AM: No, no, no. I'm going to give you that. I didn't know you

was going to want to know that. Back in the days when they

harvested sugar cane with mules and not tractors and cane

38

loaders and everything like we have today what the farmer did

was do what they called winnow. They cut the sugar cane and lay

them down in the furrow and put the tops over the stalks and the

tops over the stalks until they got to the end and then vice

versa to have them all covered and then they'd go back and pick

them up as they could because they would freeze because it took

them too long to finish harvesting their sugar cane. They would

go all the way into February harvesting sugar cane.

FA: When would you start?

AM: They would start like in October.

FA: They would start harvesting around, that's sort of late

fall isn't it?

AM: Yeah. But you would harvest all the way up to January and

sometimes up to February.

FA: Through the Christmas holiday season?

AM: Right through the Christmas holidays you went on harvesting

sugar cane then because they couldn't harvest them as fast as

they do now. So a farm the size of my daddy's farm was about as

much, that's why I'm telling you my uncle couldn't work it.

39

Fifty acres was a big farm back then. Today fifty acres you

could not farm that and make a living because it's not enough

and back then that was about all you could farm unless you had

like a plantation so to speak.

FA: From all accounts that I've heard it sounds like it was

just some major, major heavy duty labor.

AM: Oh, yes. My dad with just fifty acres had to hire ten or

twelve hands.

FA: So you hired others to come and help you harvest?

AM: Oh, yes.

FA: You only had to hire those people during harvesting season?

AM: Right but you had people like what I was telling you about

north Louisiana, up around Opelousas going that way, well they

were through with their crop and they would come and work in

these sugar cane farms for that grinding season and that lasted

like four months then. Today that's just a two month operation.

FA: You hired some other black workers to come in?

40

AM: Yes.

FA: What would have been the consequences of having white

workers come in or were they not... (End of Tape 1 - Side A)

Tape 1 - Side B

AM: That was a no, no.

FA: Those poor whites...

AM: Went to work for other whites.

FA: Went to work for other whites but they were not about to

come in and work for a black person like your father?

AM: No, I don't care what he had. I don't care what he had.

That was the same thing, when I was a young man I always wanted

to go into the trucking business and have my own truck.

FA: Eighteen wheeler, right?

AM: Right. But when I was a youngster I could have bought a

brand new ( ) and I wouldn't have been able to work it because

I was a black man and that was a black man's truck and the white

41

man wouldn't hire him.

FA: That would have been in the 1940's?

AM: In the 1940's, yeah.

FA: And you desired to be a trucker?

AM: Right. I did get to that.

FA: But it was obviously later on.

AM: Oh yeah, much later.

FA: But when you were a young man and you wanted to do these

things...

AM: I would have liked to but then you couldn't even if you

could afford a truck. I couldn't afford one anyway and I

couldn't borrow the money to buy one because they wouldn't have

loaned me that kind of money being a black man in the first

place.

FA: Why do you say you couldn't borrow the money to buy what

you wanted? Why couldn't you walk in the bank and ask for a

42

loan like anybody else?

AM: (Laughter) A black man didn't go in the bank and borrow

the money unless he had that white man to say loan that black

man that money.

FA: He wasn't going to say black man. He was going to say

black boy anyway.

AM: That's right. He would say loan that man this money and

you had your backer. He didn't have to put up any collateral or

nothing. All he had to do was say loan it to him. But then

they loaned it to him to buy some equipment to work some land

maybe sharecropping the white man's farm. That's why they got

it. But not to buy a truck to go work for some big company

because they wasn't going to hire you. But my day came and I

had my own truck and I did good.

FA: There's nothing like sweet revenge is there? (Laughter)

AM: It was not until the late 1970's, 1979 before I put my

truck on the road. I did it. I ran from 1979 to 1991, my own

truck. But earlier than that it wouldn't have worked. It was

only then when they started leasing black boys trucks. And that

was still black boys. (Laughter) That was still black boys.

43

FA: Can I ask you somewhat of a personal question and that is I

guess in one sort of sense ( ) of when you talk about you all

most of the fifty acres that you had here or still have here was

invested in sugar cane. What kind of money are we talking about

here that was earned from that amount of sugar cane back then

when you and your father were farming?

AM: Back then it wasn't a whole lot of money but it didn't take

a whole lot of money to be valuable back then because things

were so cheap. Probably my daddy might have made four hundred

dollars out of a whole crop back then. He worked the whole

year.

FA: The whole year and the profit was like?

AM:AM: Was like maybe...

FA: Four to five hundred dollars?

AM: Profit, yeah. Today I got some boys work this land, they

sharecrop it on a fifth.

FA: So you are a black landowner. You've got the

sharecroppers. You're the first person I've ever met and I'm

44

delighted to meet you but go on.

AM: Okay, this land or these black guys working it, what I'm

saying it's still being sharecropped and you're working on a

fifth and today on a fifth you're looking at about five thousand

dollars. So you've got five times five thousand would be the

amount of money you'd get from a crop on this same fifty acres.

But my dad, if he made five hundred he was doing good, real

good. That's the difference.

FA: How long have you been sharecropping the land?

AM: Since early 1950's. My dad died in 1948. It never really

went uncultivated but my mother was still living and she took

care of this and some guy worked it for a couple of years where

he didn't do very much with it. As a matter of fact, for years

we had people sharecropping it what didn't do very much with it.

I'm doing better with it now than we've done in years because

I've got some good farmers working it.

FA: What kinds of things do you provide them with?

AM: On a fifth you don't have to provide anything but the land.

If you went on fourths you'd have to put fertilizer and stuff

like that. But on a fifth which is four for them and one for

45

you, that's the fifth, you don't provide anything but the land.

They provide everything.

FA: And this is a fifth?

AM: Right. That makes a difference.

FA: It's a major difference as opposed to sharecropping for

half.

AM: Right. Oh, for half, that's been out of existence for

years. They're trying to go to a sixth now.

FA: Oh, really? What would that mean?

AM: That would mean one out of six, five for them and one for

you. Because the farmers are saying it's costing them more and

more to work the land. But you used to have what you're talking

about half but you're taking about way back when my daddy was

still living where you worked land on shares and you got half.

FA: So it's totally different industry now.

AM: Oh, yeah. It costs so much now.

46

FA: ( ) where you had to have all the equipment and all the

seeds and the fertilizers and all that stuff.

AM: They buy everything.

FA: You just provide them with the land.

AM: Just the land.

FA: I hope to be able to get a bird's eye view of what fifty

acres of land looks like.

AM: I can show you.

FA: I'd like to see. I've got to ask you something that you've

got to talk to me about because I've heard some things about it

and I want to hear about it, as a sugar cane grower as a young

man I understand that there was such a thing in this neck of the

woods that was the brown sugar festival. What do you know about

the brown sugar festival?

AM: You referring to when you had...

FA: There was a sugar cane festival.

47

AM: And you had the black parades and the white parades. That

was the brown and the white.

FA: Did you, in fact, participate in the brown sugar parade?

AM: Oh, yeah. I didn't participate like having a float or

anything like that but I went to the sugar cane festivals.

FA: When you say you worked at the sugar cane festival...

AM: Oh no, I said I went to the sugar cane. You had the parade

and then you had the fedo do they called it. The fedo do was

dancing in the street. That was your biggest activity, the fedo

do outside of the parade. Now the parade was beautiful. The

black parade was beautiful. But you didn't have no whites in

the black parade and you didn't have no blacks in the white

parade.

FA: But everybody went to each other's?

AM: Everybody went to each parade, yes.

FA: I've heard that the black parade was...

AM: Beautiful, beautiful.

48

FA: What made it so beautiful in your eyes? What did it

consist of?

AM: Okay, okay, that goes back to what I was saying in the

beginning. You were segregated then. That's what's killing it.

The parade is going to diminish. It's diminishing now. I

doubt if we're going to have one in the next few years. All

because the blacks and the whites is all together and it

minimizes the parade. The fedo do, they want to have them

together and still want to segregate so the fedo do fazed out.

They don't have no more fedo do for blacks. And the whites and

the blacks can't get together. So you don't even have the fedo

do no more.

FA: Dancing in the street?

AM: That's what the fedo do was.

FA: Now when did the fedo do used to occur?

AM: For the sugar cane festival.

FA: Was it daytime?

49

AM: No, no, nighttime.

FA: That was usually after the parade?

AM: Yeah, after the parade.

FA: And that was the dancing in the street?

AM: Right.

FA: Would you all block off a certain area?

AM: Oh yeah, block off a whole block.

FA: Usually where would it be held?

AM: Hopkins Street because Hopkins Street was your black area.

FA: That was a like main street?

AM: That was the black main street, right. Hopkins Street was

the black main street and the whites had the white Main Street.

FA: Now did you go to each other's fedo do?

50

AM: No. Oh, no. Oh, no. That was segregated.

FA: Now did you have live bands and things at fedo do?

AM: Yes indeed, oh yes, they had live bands.

FA: But there is no brown sugar cane festival anymore, right,

it's all just the sugar cane festival?

AM: The sugar cane festival, yes.

FA: But I'm just saying you all went so far as to have a brown,

queen brown sugar cane?

AM: Oh, yes.

FA: I've never been anywhere and heard of such festivities

having taken place.

AM: And it was great.

FA: When did the brown sugar cane festival, I understand that

is no more?

AM: No.

51

FA: Do you know when that stopped or when that stopped

existing?

AM: After integration.

FA: Sometime in the 1960's, huh?

AM: Integration killed it. It fazed out gradually because they

would still have the black parade, they still would have the

black parade until they got to where they couldn't have the

black parade because they wanted one.

FA: Who's they?

AM: I don't know if it was the officials or the general public.

All I know they fazed it out.

FA: How would you have preferred it to be?

AM: Just like I said about everything else, equalization.

FA: You like that brown sugar cane parade?

AM: I liked that.

52

FA: Now where would you bring the bands in from? Some local

kids in high schools?

AM: Right.

FA: But you brought in other bands?

AM: Oh, yes. Bands came from all over. Black bands from all

them black schools came for the parade and you had all your,

even from up at Opelousas, Crowley, Eunice and down all the way

to Morgan City that way. Sometimes even further than Morgan

City. All the black schools, not colleges, high school bands.

FA: Did you bring in Southern University?

AM: I don't think we had college bands. It was all high school

bands.

FA: Did you have Grambling?

AM: I think Grambling would come.

FA: Yeah, I've heard others mention that Grambling would be in

it.

53

AM: Yeah, because Grambling had a marching band that was out of

sight. And you know about ( ). Well Grambling and Florida, I

think it was Florida A&M, had a good marching band. They used

to have the battle. But this was like in Baton Rouge where

Southern and Grambling would have their big games, football

games, and they would have these battle of the bands. That's

when you'd see all these college bands. But for the sugar cane

festival you didn't have many college bands. You had high

school bands from every black high school in the area, even I'm

telling you like all the way out of New Orleans you would have

black bands would come for the sugar cane festival. Because you

had the black and you had the white. And all the black

schools...

FA: Now when did the sugar cane festival take place? I assume

this was in the fall of the year.

AM: It was the fall. It would be like November I believe or

the latter part of September. September. Yeah, you're looking

at maybe a month from now the sugar cane festival will take

place. It's going to still take place.

FA: Whenever you get ready for the sugar cane festival but it

sounds like just before they got ready to go into the year's

54

harvesting because you said harvesting started in October

AM: Right.

FA: So they finished the last year, ( ).

AM: By the time they got through planting the festival and then

they went into harvesting. Sometimes they'd already be into

harvesting. Oh yeah, they'd be already into the harvest now.

But like you had it just when they would get through planting

and going into harvesting. That's was when you had the sugar

cane festival.

FA: Now do you remember any of the brown sugar queens that they

named? Can you tell me any of them by name?

AM: No.

FA: Don't remember anyone who was brown sugar queen, huh?

AM: I couldn't give them to you by name. Do you remember any?

Beulah Manual: Myra ( ).

AM: Myra was a queen?

55

FA: And that was Myra ( )?

AM: ( ), yeah.

FA: And she was one of the brown sugar queens? Who elected

these people as queens? Did people in the community decide?

AM: No.

BM: They had like a ( ).

AM: But then to elect the queen how did they do it? Did they

raise money like they do for the Mardi Gras thing?

BM: Yeah, like a contest.

AM: Yeah, they had contests.

FA: And they usually were like high school girls?

AM: Yeah.

FA: After the war ended in 1945 and soldiers are returning

home, they returned here to Louisiana, was there a feeling in

56

the air that things were going to change. You'd just fought a

war, so many black men around the world and they came back, was

the sense that things were going to get better? What happened

as you approached the latter 1940's and 1950's? Did things get

worse here?

AM: No, it didn't get worse but it didn't get better. They had

that assumption what you're saying that it would be different

when them boys got back from the service but it didn't.

FA: What did it take for things to get better?

AM: The civil rights movement, NAACP. That's what it took to

make the changes but that's what forced integration.

FA: I'm glad you brought up the NAACP. Maybe you can tell me a

little bit about the 1943 incident that happened here in New

Iberia when all the black doctors were ran out of town.

AM: Yeah.

FA: Leo ( ) lost his life, president of the NAACP. I can't

remember his last name right now but his first name was Leo and

he died as a result of a meeting.

57

AM: St. Edward's?

FA: Un-huh. So was he was your local branch president of the

NAACP and he and a couple of others men were beaten but he was

beaten mercilessly and ( ).

AM: Vaguely I recall something like that but I don't...

FA: But what happened with that 1943 incident? How did people

feel when all the black doctors were run out of town?

AM: Well, it was awful but there was nothing you could do about

it then because you still didn't have integration. That was

when they were really fighting it. I mean the whites were

fighting it then. They didn't want it and they still were

fighting it and they was winning. All of the doctors had to

leave because they was going to kill them. There wasn't the Ku

Klux Klan here like parts of Mississippi but they would have

gotten them one way or the other. Like you said, this black guy

what got beat up, there was a lot of that that went on I just

wasn't...

BM: Leo Hardy.

AM: Leo Hardy?

58

FA: From what we gathered in talking to people downtown, Leo

Hardy didn't die right away but he died later as a result.

AM: As a result, yeah. I understand what you're saying, I

understand.

FA: All the doctors were ran out and never came back.

AM: No. New doctors came.

FA: The first doctor that you had following that incident was

Dr. Diggs I believe?

AM: That stayed, yeah. Diggs is still here.

FA: What kind of medical care did you receive in the area? Did

you go to New Iberia General if it might have been called that

then? Did you have hospital facilities in New Iberia and blacks

could go to it as far as you can remember?

AM: Yeah, right.

FA: Did you get the same treatment as white people though?

59

AM: Well, I wouldn't say that. No, no, no. You got treated

like a black person when you went to the hospital.

FA: You say treated like a black person. What does it mean to

be treated like a black person?

AM: It means that you got second rate facilities. Even if you

had a black doctor what went to see you in the hospital, you

didn't have a room like a white person had.

FA: Oh, the room facilities were different?

AM: You didn't have the facilities, no.

FA: Can you tell me how they were different?

AM: They were different because they wasn't serviced like the

others were. Oh, no.

BM: And separate.

FA: You wouldn't be on the same ward?

AM: Un-uh, no.

60

FA: I didn't know that.

BM: They had rooms in the back for blacks.

FA: That was the ( )?

AM: General was right there on Main.

BM: And it had I think five ( ).

AM: Your facility was not the same.

FA: There wasn't even a separate ward for women who were

delivering?

BM: No because they had a man across the hall from me had

hepatitis when I was having a baby.

FA: Are you kidding?

BM: Un-huh.

FA: And there wasn't like a maternity ward?

AM: No, no, no. No, they didn't have that.

61

FA: But that probably was provided for on the white side for

white patients. And what time period are we talking about,

we're talking about the 1930's and 1940's?

BM: ( ) because I had my first child in 1950.

AM: Yeah, I imagine it went up to the early 1950's.

FA: Mr. Manuel you told me a little while ago about when you

went to New Iberia General or ( ), I don't know which one you

were talking about, you had small waiting places that you were

talking about, black waiting facilities were not the same as the

white?

AM: No.

FA: When you say they weren't the same do you mean that they

weren't as elaborate as the white facilities?

AM: Right. You didn't have the same facilities.

BM: All of us had one bed and just a little thing beside the

bed and just a little area where the doctor could come in and

tend to you.

62

FA: The rooms that you stayed in if you were hospitalized were

even smaller?

AM: Oh, yes. And that was your black section, period.

FA: Did the white doctors attend to black patients?

AM: Some.

FA: Okay, so they would come in, they did have patients that

were black?

AM: Yeah, some.

FA: Now were black doctors permitted to work in the hospital?

AM: In the black area.

FA: But black doctors were not going to go to the white wards?

AM: And they were not going to wait on no white people.

FA: What about black and white nurses?

63

AM: I would say you had black nurses what waited on white

people but not doctors.

FA: Black nurses were waiting on white people?

AM: Un-huh. Because then they was equalized to maids. They

wasn't a registered nurse.

FA: You can take the bed pan?

AM: Yeah, right.

FA: You can clean me, you can bathe me.

AM: Yeah, right.

FA: The same kinds of things that black women were doing anyway

outside of hospitals, taking care of white people.

AM: Right.

FA: You can lift me, you can handle me.

AM: Right. That's what you had.

64

FA: Somebody told me they thought it was quite a while because

there was a registered black nurse here in New Iberia.

AM: I'm telling you. Oh, yes. It was.

FA: ( ) a real black nurse was a rarity.

AM: That's right. Whoever told you that told you the truth.

FA: And I can't remember who it was.

AM: I don't know who it was but I know they told you the truth.

I'll vouch for that.

FA: Someone told me ( ).

AM: That's right.

FA: What kind of treatment would you receive if you were in the

hospital and you were the patient and white nurses came to tend

to you?

AM: They didn't.

FA: White nurses did not come and wait on you.

65

AM: You was in the black section and they had black nurses.

That's what I'm saying.

BM: If you had to have a shot...

AM: Oh, they might would come give you a shot, yeah. But you

didn't have a registered black nurse.

BM: Anything else she would call the black woman in.

FA: At least the women who were there doing nursing.

AM: Right.

FA: But they were not registered nurses so they could not

administer medicine and give shots?

AM: No.

FA: They probably ( ) by the whites.

AM: I'm going to go you one further on that. You had some of

the black nurses who were not registered nurses that after they

had been there for some time working with these doctors for some

66

time they let them start doing this because they were familiar

with it and they could do it and they let them do it. What was

this, he was a male, I think he was a male nurse, remember that

guy downtown, I can't call his name, for years and years who

worked at the hospital.

BM: Eddie?

AM: Right, Eddie. But he was a nurse.

BM: Like an orderly.

AM: Okay, but then he would do everything.

FA: For a black person?

AM: For black persons, yeah, not no whites but black ones.

BM: But he was with the white doctor, Dr. Land who ( ) in the

hospital.

AM: That's what I'm saying, they let him do it.

FA: He had something ( ).

67

AM: Yeah, that make him be a big dog though. Not that he was

trained but he learned from working with the doctors and they

let him and you had nurses do the same thing.

FA: And when was this stuff of thing going on?

AM: Oh, that was into the 1950's. Oh yeah, that was into the

1950's.

BM: Your daddy was still working in the hospital in the 1960's

and 1970's.

AM: In the 1960's, I'm telling you, that went on.

FA: Was it clear in this area, I mean I know everybody didn't

belong to one church. I know we want to think that everybody

had a church belonging or a church affiliation but not everybody

did. What happened to black folks in the area that didn't

belong to a church where they could be buried? Did it then

become the community's responsibility at that time?

AM: No.

FA: Were there benevolent societies around here?

68

AM: Yeah, you had that.

FA: And was the church their benevolent society?

AM: They had benevolent societies back then and you could

belong to those. I never belonged to one, I'm not going to say

that, but I heard of them and I know what you're talking about.

FA: ( ) that was a question to you if you were to pass because

Mrs. Manuel knew that she had somewhere to bury you because of

your family cemetery, correct?

AM: Right. And like I said, my parents even had a place even

though it was in the white cemetery but that was Catholic too.

But you had Baptist churches and I'm assuming if you didn't

belong to a church whoever was in charge of seeing to you

getting buried could easily get you into a Baptist cemetery.

FA: So the Baptists in the area provided spaces for non-church

goers?

AM: Right. That's the way that would...

FA: They would take the responsibility of providing spaces for

non-church goers but the Catholic church didn't?

69

AM: I don't think so. It would have been hard to get you

buried into a Catholic cemetery if you didn't belong to a

Catholic church. You had to be Catholic.

FA: Do you think that still remains today?

AM: Yeah, I think it still remains today.

FA: Me being a non-Catholic if I wanted to buy a plot at St.

Edward's could I purchase a lot at St. Edward's?

AM: Not today. I couldn't buy one now. They claim they don't

have no more but there are building a new cemetery and they're

going to have some more. It's not in existence yet. But still

you couldn't buy one.

BM: ( ). I keep wondering well, what are they going to start

doing with people out there.

AM: Well, they're opening non-church cemeteries. There's one

right down there.

BM: Non-denominational.

70

AM: Yeah, non-denominational and anybody, black, white,

Protestant, Catholic, whatever, can go into these. That's what

they're doing now because most of your church cemeteries are all

filled up. They have either got to start new ones or something

like that. What you're saying is true about the cemeteries,

yes.

FA: This is just the kind of stuff I wanted to hear and you

said you don't know if you had anything to tell. This is one of

the most exciting interviews I've done yet.

AM: No kidding, I think you're pulling my leg.

FA: I wouldn't do that to you, not at all.

AM: Well, I'm glad if I can be some service to you. I didn't

know, you know, if this would be what you wanted.

FA: You've talked about it all. There's so much here that's

going to be invaluable for generations to come and I'm glad

we've got it. I'm delighted.

AM: Thank you.

FA: I think perhaps one of the most interesting things that you

71

shared with me is the fact that blacks owned land.

AM: Oh yeah, blacks owned much land back then, like you said

but blacks lost a lot of land.

FA: But to be able to talk...

AM: To someone in a family that did not lose their land.

FA: Not only had land but had land that dates back to a hundred

years or more. It's amazing to me that you had small black

farmers who lost it all but somehow your family held onto it but

not only that, you all acquired more in the nineteenth century.

AM: Right.

FA: I think this will be telling these young people that ( ).

AM: Oh yes, oh yes, I've always said that especially now to the

youngsters now coming, the opportunities are so much greater

than mine was and I told you my dream came. So you know I tell

them they can. They can do a whole lot more than I did because

I don't say we're where we should be but we've come a long, long

way. And these kids today, if they really got out there and put

out like we had to do they could achieve much more than they're

72

doing. Oh, yes.

FA: What I'm going to do, Mr. Manuel, is take some time and go

through some history if we can or retake a look at it. What I'm

going to do is go through the family history and get some names

and dates and as stories come up feel free to keep talking

because I'm sure there it will be something about your family

history that might evoke some stories. And the last name is

spelled?

AM: M-A-N-U-E-L.

FA: I've never seen ( ). And the first name is Armstrong?

AM: Right.

FA: I've still got to find out ( ).

AM: I don't know, I don't know.

FA: Did you have a middle name, Mr. Armstrong?

AM: Edward. Catholic. All Catholics got a middle name.

FA: Oh, really?

73

AM: Oh, yeah.

FA: It's a saint's name?

AM: It's a saint's name, yeah. That's your christening name.

FA: Well, that's the name of the church too.

AM: Yeah. I belong to St. Edward's and my middle name is

Edward.

FA: Now this is your christening name, Edward?

AM: That was my christening, yeah. That's how you got a middle

name back then.

FA: And the address here is 1406?

AM: Neco Town Road.

FA: And this is a New Iberia address?

AM: Right.

74

FA: Is it 70560?

AM: Right.

FA: Your date of birth again?

AM: Eighth month, second day, twenty-seventh year.

FA: ( ).

AM: You're not ( ) though.

FA: No, I'm ( ).

AM: You missed a good one.

FA: I'm not quite ( ).

AM: You missed a good one. That ( ) is the best.

FA: Where were you born, Mr. Manuel?

AM: Iberia Parish.

FA: In New Iberia?

75

AM: Right.

FA: And your principal occupation, you say you were farming

most of your life?

AM: Oh, no. I was an independent trucker and I worked in the

oil field service, I worked for an oil field service company for

twenty years. I only farmed when my daddy was living.

FA: Okay. And pretty much once your father passed you gave up

the farm?

AM: Right, and started to sharecropping and it's still being

sharecropped today.

FA: ( )?

AM: Yes.

FA: Now is the of rotating the sugar cane fields still

important to the land, how people ( )?

AM: Yes, yes.

76

FA: You still have to do that now? I've only heard about this.

AM: They still do that. Not as much as they did before because

what they would do is raise sugar cane for so many years and

then they'd raise corn but corn was then for feed for your hogs,

your cattle, your mules, your horses. Today they've got

tractors so they don't raise corn. They're beginning to raise a

new commodity called ( ). Saw a lot of it right down the road

there.

FA: What's ( )?

AM: ( ) is what they use for, I think it's being used for ( )

oil.

FA: ( )?

AM: Isn't that what that ( ) was for? It's called ( ). They

was going to use sorghum and they discontinued the sorghum.

They've got something better they call ( ). It's a new

commodity in this area but I saw a lot down there even in

fields.

BM: I've seen people out there on local farms.

77

AM: Right. It's being raised by local farmers. I think they

ship it off because we don't have an ( ) oil plant here.

FA: I did not know that there were so many natural resources in

Louisiana. I didn't know there were salt mines. I didn't know

there were oil fields. ( ) natural resources.

AM: That was the early commodity. I know we had four.

FA: Mother Nature has given you certain natural things that you

don't even have to do because it's there and Louisiana is ranked

as one of the four states ( ) that wealth is being held on to

by a handful of people. There's no reason for ( ).

AM: To be poor.

FA: To be as poor as they area, to be like second, third,

fourth, some lower educational rate.

AM: I would believe it about education but I can't believe

Louisiana is one of the poorest.

BM: Yeah but what he is just said is like certain families.

FA: But you have some of the wealthiest families included here

78

but by the same token they are holding onto that and that wealth

is not ( ) throughout ( ) therefore Louisiana is ranked ( )

as the poorest state in the union.

AM: No kidding? I didn't know that.

FA: And it hit me dead in the face when I got ( ) New Orleans.

There again, blacks here have really been shafted ( ). I

think people out here ( ) and I've always felt that way. That

made me conscious because I grew up in a rural area of North

Carolina. Because basically those oil fields and those salt

mines belong to ( ).

AM: Oh, yeah.

FA: ( ). And they're shipping that stuff to all parts of the

world.

AM: Avery's Island belonged to two families, the Averys and the

( ). That's only two families.

FA: The ( ) married the Averys.

AM: So they've still got it.

79

FA: I think one of the Avery daughters married ( ). What's

the phone number here?

AM: My phone number?

FA: Un-huh.

AM: 364-5219, area code 318.

FA: For all official records that are housed at the university

with your interview, do you want your first name here Armstrong?

AM: Right.

FA: Middle name, you want your middle name too?

AM: Edward.

FA: Is there a nickname you want there?

AM: Mickey.

FA: Mickey?

AM: That's what everybody knows. M-I-C-K-E-Y.

80

FA: Because some people may not know Armstrong?

AM: That's for sure. Many people don't know.

FA: So they'll look on the records and say oh, I know who that

is.

AM: I know Mickey, oh yeah, I know Mickey. Yes indeed.

FA: And local people probably wouldn't know who Armstrong

Manuel is.

AM: A lot of them.

FA: But many of them will know the nickname.

AM: Right.

FA: So now we've got a nickname so local people will know who

that is.

AM: Right.

FA: Now Mrs. Manuel, can you give us your first name?

81

BM: Beulah, B-E-U-L-A-H.

FA: Now that's a real southern name.

BM: Yes.

FA: Did you have a middle name?

BM: I always use my maiden name which is ( ).

AM: Why you didn't use Elizabeth? (Laughter)

BM: I don't want to use it. I use ( ).

FA: And the last name is ( )?

BM: Right.

FA: What's your birthdate?

BM: February 4, 1931.

FA: Where were you born?

82

BM: In Baldwin, Louisiana.

FA: What parish was that in?

BM: That's in St. Mary's Parish.

FA: I was going to ask you what county. We normally call them

counties. Ya'll call them parishes.

AM: Right.

FA: I've learned something. When you're talking about a civil

parish as opposed to being a church parish.

AM: Right.

FA: And you are a librarian?

BM: Un-huh.

FA: Okay, Mr. Manuel, what's your mother's name?

AM: Emily.

FA: Did she have a middle name that you know of?

83

AM: I don't know what the middle name was.

FA: But her last name was Manuel?

AM: Right.

FA: What was her maiden name?

AM: Thompson.

FA: I haven't heard of that. I mean ( ).

AM: Well, okay I'm going to give you a reason probably for

that.

FA: Okay, ( )?

AM: No, she was born right here in Jeanerette but my

grandfather was Indian and that might be where the Thompson

comes from.

FA: Okay, that sounds a lot more ( ) formerly a French name

and they ( ). And your mother was born in Jeanerette?

AM: Right.

84

FA: Now is that Iberia Parish also?

AM: Yes, but I believe...

BM: Most of it is Iberia Parish.

FA: Okay, I'm going to list it as Iberia Parish.

AM: I would say yes because since...

FA: Oh, some of it laps over into another parish?

BM: Right.

AM: Well, if you went across St. Peter would be in St. Mary's

Parish but my mother lived on St. Peter Street so just put it

New Iberia - Iberia Parish. Not New Iberia, Iberia Parish.

Because the biggest part of Jeanerette is in Iberia Parish.

FA: Now to you recall your mother's birthdate?

AM: No.

FA: Do you remember when she died?

85

AM: 1961.

FA: Do you know how old she was when she died?

AM: No.

FA: She died in 1961?

AM: Yes. How old she was I don't remember.

FA: Do you remember what month she died in 1961?

AM: Oh, that's going to be hard. I need to call Cyril. If you

need that I can get it. I'll call my brother, he knows

everything. I don't remember.

FA: Maybe you can call him. Is it a local phone call?

AM: Oh no, he lives in Antioch, California.

FA: No, don't call him.

AM: We can call him.

86

FA: No, just tell me what you remember. You know that she died

in 1961.

AM: That's all I got.

FA: What do you recall your mother do for a living?

AM: Housework.

FA: What was your father's first name?

AM: Gregorie, Gregorie Manuel. You pronounced it ( ). That's

the way it's pronounced.

FA: And it looks like maybe some ( ) of Gregory.

AM: Well, some people called him Gregory. (End of Tape 1 -

Side B.)

(Tape 2 - Side A)

FA: (Tape sounds blurred.)

AM: I imagine so, he was Catholic, but I don't know.

87

FA: Do you recall your father's birthdate?

AM: No. 1948?

FA: Do you know how old he was at the time of his death?

AM: His exact age I don't know but he was in his eighties.

That's all I can remember.

FA: Do you remember what month he died in?

AM: December I believe, I'm not sure. He died in the winter.

FA: And where was your father born?

AM: In Iberia Parish.

FA: In New Iberia?

AM: Right. Right in this area down the road.

FA: And your father was a farmer, right?

AM: Yes. That's all he ever did, farm.

88

FA: How many children did your parents have?

AM: They had three boys and two girls, five children.

FA: ( )?

AM: Okay. Married name?

FA: ( )?

AM: Married name, Ed Manuel. Okay, Evette was the oldest.

Talmadge, that was my oldest brother.

FA: Who was next?

AM: After Talmadge was Cyril. That's a easy one. Anetia.

Armstrong.

FA: You're the fifth child?

AM: Right.

FA: Okay, can you remember anybody's birthdate? How many are

younger?

89

AM: Okay, I'm going to give you the best of my knowledge. You

want to go Anetia first or you want to start at the start?

FA: I want to go with whoever you can go with first.

AM: I can go with Evette but that's not going to give you her

birthdate. That's going to only give you the day she was born.

She was born on July 11 but what year - Evette is in her

seventies, I don't know.

FA: We'll figure it out.

AM: See I can't give you the birthdate because I can't give you

Anetia's either.

FA: Okay, but she was born July 11.

AM: Right.

FA: When was Talmadge born, what's his birthday?

AM: I don't know and he's dead.

FA: Okay, do you know when he died?

90

AM: 1960. Talmadge died a year before Mama or a year after

Mama.

BM: When Kennedy was killed.

AM: That was 1963.

FA: You mother died in 1961?

BM: So Talmadge died in 1962.

AM: After Mama died, yeah, 1962.

FA: Do you know what month it was?

AM: No, I don't remember.

FA: You just know it was 1962 when Talmadge died?

AM: Yeah.

FA: Okay, good enough. Cyril, when is Cyril's birthday?

AM: December, I don't know. Why don't you let her call? Cyril

would give us all of what your are asking.

91

FA: Is Cyril local?

AM: No, he's not local but it don't matter we can call him.

FA: I don't want you to call him.

AM: That don't matter, I'm going to do the calling. Get that

phone over there and bring it here, Mama.

FA: What about Anetia?

AM: If you just talk about something else and let her call

Cyril, Cyril is going to give us all of that.

FA: How many children do you have? We don't need Cyril to tell

us how many children you've got.

AM: Oh, no. I've got two.

FA: Give me their names, the oldest to the youngest.

AM: Charles Manuel, Evelyn Manuel. I've three step-children if

you want them.

92

FA: Okay.

AM: That's her children.

FA: Do you want them all?

AM: Three - Felton, that's her's.

FA: And what's his last name?

AM: Butler. Gregory Butler. Edwin Butler.

FA: That's the names, you don't have those birthdates do you?

AM: Oh yeah, that's her children, she's going to remember.

FA: Do you have grandchildren?

AM: Yes.

FA: How many do you have?

AM: Okay, Evelyn's got two and Charles has got three. That's

five grandchildren.

93

FA: Edward's got two?

AM: Evelyn. Oh no, wait, you're going back to my children.

Evelyn.

FA: Did you say Edward or Evelyn Manuel?

AM: Evelyn.

FA: You don't have an Edward Manuel?

AM: Oh, no.

FA: Evelyn Manuel.

AM: I didn't know you put Edward. Evelyn is a girl.

FA: Okay.

AM: I've got a son and a daughter, Evelyn and Charles.

FA: Now Evelyn has two and Charles has...?

AM: Three.

94

FA: So you've got five grandchildren?

AM: Right.

(Mrs. Manuel telephones Cyril.)

AM: Cyril, don't get excited, we just need some birthdates.

You can help me? Okay, I've got a guy interviewing me and he

needs to know if you know Mama's birthday and Papa's birthday,

that's to begin with. Do you know either one of those? Okay.

Okay, Mama was born in 1890.

FA: What month?

AM: Okay. And Papa was 1876. He don't have the month. He's

giving the year. Don't put it up just yet, I'm going to get

Talmadge. You know Talmadge's birthday? Okay Talmadge, October

24, 1920.

FA: When was your sister Evette born?

AM: Okay we've got Evette July 11, I don't have a year. 1919.

Thank you sir.

FA: Is Evette still living?

95

AM: Yes.

FA: What's his birthday?

AM: What's yours? December 28, 1922. No, he ain't going to (

). My brother's alright. (Laughter) ( ) my brother it's

going to be a bad ( ). Okay, Anetia, I've got that, is August

12, 1925. Okay, now we've got them all.

FA: So Talmadge is the only one that's dead?

AM: Talmadge is the one dead, yeah.

FA: Does he know a month that Talmadge died?

AM: Do you know the month Talmadge died? (Pause) 1962 in the

month of November.

FA: November, 1962?

AM: Yeah.

FA: Okay, that's enough. Where was everyone born?

96

AM: They all was born in New Iberia.

FA: New Iberia?

AM: Oh, yes.

FA: That's all I need from him.

AM: Okay. (Ends conversation with his brother.)

FA: Okay, what is Charles' birthday, you son Charles?

AM: Charles is January 2, 1948.

FA: What about Evelyn?

AM: Evelyn is February, 1949.

FA: She was born in 1949?

AM: The year after Charles.

FA: We can wait on Mrs. Manuel for the date.

AM: I don't know if she's going to know either.

97

FA: Oh, yes she will. You might think she's ( ).

AM: Why?

FA: Because she don't know that birthdate.

AM: That's my child, that's not her's. That's her stepchild.

FA: No, this is your child.

AM: But that's her stepchild.

FA: Oh, that's not her child?

AM: No.

FA: Oh, okay, I see.

AM: I was married twice.

FA: I thought maybe you two had had children together.

AM: No, we don't have any children together.

98

FA: Oh, okay.

AM: Butlers are her children.

FA: So you don't know birthdates for the Butler children?

AM: No, she's going to have to give them to you.

FA: Actually, I dont' need these I thought maybe these were

your children together.

AM: Oh, no.

FA: Okay, this is all I need is Charles and Evelyn.

AM: Mom, what's Evelyn's birthday. I've got Charles.

BM: It's not in February?

AM: That's what I said, February, but I don't have the exact

date. Is it the same day as you? It can't be the fourth.

Looks like to me it's the twelfth. Twelfth, okay. That's makes

it right if you come up with twelve and I got twelve, that's

right.

99

FA: Where was Charles born?

AM: That's New Iberia. Now do you need their mother's name?

That's not her children, that's my children.

FA: Un-uh. We're just looking for you once they found the

children's records ( ) mother's name. We've got the birthdates

and their names. Okay, now you can take it from there if you

want to find these people.

AM: Okay.

FA: Okay, you've lived in New Iberia all your life, right?

AM: Right.

FA: And where was the last place you went to school?

AM: I went to Lee Street Elementary. I went to school again

after I was an adult if that makes any difference.

FA: Okay, let me get that and then we'll get back to that. And

that was here in New Iberia?

AM: Yes.

100

FA: And you completed the, what grade did you say you

completed?

AM: Seventh.

FA: Seventh grade here at Lee Street Elementary?

AM: Un-huh.

FA: Do you know when you completed the seventh grade?

AM: That's going to be hard for me to remember.

FA: What was the school that you attended later, night school?

AM: Un-huh.

FA: And what was it?

AM: J.B. Henderson High School.

FA: And that is no more ( )?

AM: No.

101

FA: That went away with integration?

AM: Right.

FA: ( ) named for a black man?

AM: That's right.

FA: I've heard about that. And when did you do that Mr.

Armstrong?

AM: That would have been in the 1960's.

FA: Did you acquire your G.E.D. at that time?

AM: No. I completed high school. I didn't take the G.E.D.

test. I didn't take the test, beat me up if you want, that was

my fault and I finished with good grades.

FA: You completed the coursework?

AM: I just didn't take the test. I would have got my degree.

FA: Okay, but you did night school in the 1960's?

102

AM: Un-huh, I completed the courses.

FA: Give me those two jobs that you told me that you held down.

You were an independent trucker and...

AM: I worked in the oil field for Halliburton. Trucking last.

FA: You were independent so you were trucking for yourself?

AM: Un-huh.

FA: And that was here in New Iberia, right?

AM: Right.

FA: How long did you do that?

AM: Approximately ten years. More than ten years, 1979 to

1991.

FA: And then you went to the oil field?

AM: No. I told you trucking was last. You asked me last

first.

103

FA: Okay, I'm sorry. Give me the oil field one, the one before

that.

AM: Okay, the oil field was from 1959...

FA: Who were you working for at the oil field?

AM: Halliburton Services.

FA: He got that from ( ) didn't he?

AM: Un-huh.

FA: That's the first time I've heard it. And that was New

Iberia?

AM: Right.

FA: And when did you do that?

AM: From 1959 to 1979, twenty years.

FA: I think you worked ( )?

104

AM: Yeah. I worked even before that but that's the longest. I

worked for another oil field service company which was ( ). I

worked for them eight years too. You might put it because that

ain't all my days with Halliburton.

FA: Now, are there any awards or honors that you've held you'd

care to mention at this time?

AM: No.

FA: And you are Catholic?

AM: Yes.

FA: And your church affiliation is St. Edward's?

AM: Yes. I've got some little service awards from Halliburton

but they don't amount to nothing. They just give them to us for

not having accidents. Safety awards, that's what I want to say.

I said service but they were really safety awards.

BM: You got a watch.

AM: Naw, I got that dumb clock. (Laughter) I don't know where

it's at. It's in the room.

105

FA: That's for your retirement?

AM: Yeah, that clock.

FA: It looks like it gets bright all of a sudden.

AM: Yeah. They do that.

FA: I didn't know whether my eyes was playing tricks on me.

AM: No, they get bright, not necessarily get bright, what

happens is they get dimmer and then they come back bright. You

just never know that they're dim. Every time that pump comes on

there...

FA: Do you belong to any civic, community, educational or

political organizations you would like to mention at this time?

AM: No.

FA: You never served in the military?

AM: No.

106

FA: What are your hobbies? What do you like doing just for fun

in your leisure?

AM: I don't have no good hobbies.

FA: Maybe you don't have some you want to mention but...

AM: Oh, no. My hobby is doing what I do around the house, the

yard and stuff like that. But I don't hunt, I don't fish, I

don't play golf.

BM: ( ).

AM: I don't do that either.

FA: You were a dancer one time?

AM: No. I'm a TV freak. I'm that today. I'm a TV freak if

you want to put that on there.

FA: A TV freak.

AM: That's what I said.

FA: Okay, what I need from you Mr. Manuel, the interview

107

agreement which just says that you give Duke University

permission to house these tapes and to be used for the scholarly

research and continuation of this and your signature and today's

date.

AM: Okay.

FA: And I'll need your signature on this line here and date.

AM: Okay. Give me my glasses please. Thank you. Okay.

That's it?

FA: That's all I need. Now the only thing I want is for you to

make a closing statement for me, whatever your heart so desires.

Anything you care particularly to say in your closing comment.

AM: I'm glad to say if I contributed anything to your research

I'm glad I was able to do so.

FA: You've made a major contribution and ( ).

AM: Thank you.

FA: It has been my pleasure. Thanks to you and Mrs. Manuel for

allowing us to spend time with both of you. It's been a

108

wonderful interview and thank you so much for your time.

109