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Partha PratimUnfollowFollow Partha Pratim

Need advise from HVAC engineers on my 72 room business hotel. VRF or

Chiller Plant

Property located in Himalayan region. Max daytime temp - 28C (June) Min temp - 0-1C.Rainfall is heavy, more data in this link -http://goo.gl/AB7xQAdvantages & disadvantages of both systems. Capex & Opex of both the systems.

1 month ago

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2/22

NILESH POTDAR,Deepak Salgotraand 6 others like this

You,NILESH POTDAR,Deepak Salgotraand 6 others like this

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PankajUnfollow Follow Pankaj

Pankaj Patil VRF is better option as compared to chilled water system because... 1) Avoid pumps for chilled water circulation

2) Less energy conversion hence low energy3) Avoids water treatment.4) And most important in your case is that VRF can be used as heat pump during cold.

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nechiforUnfollow Follow nechifor

nechifor emil Chiller system. Reasons:1. The big limitation in the literature states the refrigerant lines can be as long as 500 feet, butwhen you read the fine print, after the first T from the condensing unit, you are limited to 135feet to the furthest unit.2. chillers are factory tested, also on VRFs refrigerant leak is an issue especially if the systemserves small rooms where it can cause oxygen depletion (for a hotel... well better be safe)3. Huge quantity of expensive freon compared to cheap water4. Chiller can be used also as a heating pump, or better use a normal heater for the water, forcold season, as all freon based heat pumps are far from being energy efficient.5. VRF are complete, proprietary systems, from the controls right up to the condensing units,refrigerant controllers, and all the system components other than the refrigerant piping andthe dedicated outdoor air supply unit(s). So for warranty we have to use only their products,specially the indoor units wich moslty suck in terms of air speed confort.6. Life costs are kind of the same in the begining, but later the VRF failure rate is higher.

7. cheaper instalation costs, (compare 5/4" or 1/2" to 4" ....and you'll need a lot of pipe).8. Outside air does need to be treated independently of the VRF system, but for you that
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might not be an issue as you'll probably use natural ventilation anyway.Still, VRFs are more energy efficient in an ideal situation compared to chillers, so they aregood only on replacing an old freon system, but on new buildings...Oh, and this is moslty a war between manufacturers so huge discounts are common and canchange the balance for each project.



5

KantaUnfollow Follow Kanta

Kanta A VRF system is energy efficient system but for a hotel like yours Chiller plantswould be more useful. As regards energy efficiency use efficient chiller Compressor withbetter IKW /IPLV rated and use Variable Frequency Drives for pumps [ Secondary & also forprimary]. Moreover Mr. Nechifor stated earlier that the lenght of copper pipe in the case ofVRF is a limitation hence the VRF has quite a few conditions attached to the system. BesidesVRF would have multiple compressor whereas in Water chilling plant would have limited

number of compressor . So VRF system is more vulnerable to Central plant ( water chillingsystem). VRF has to be services by specially trained people [ often by the supplier] butmaintenance of Chiller plant are easy and not that special and costs less. Moreover if youwant to cool your restaurant/Kitchen areas, the chilled water combined with Air handling unitand ducting is the best possible way than that of VRF. In both the system you would berequiring Treated fresh air. And you can install Heat recovery unit also to save energy.So if VRF is the system for saving energy then good designer & planner can save energy inconventional water chilling system too.Capex: VRF systems are costly.Opex: Efficient Chiller plants if designed & Operated properly the operation cost are not thatexorbitant.



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Mohammed K.Unfollow Follow Mohammed K.

Mohammed K. Raziuddin Owais I agree that in case of the hotel, Chilled Water systemswill be more ideal and especially in Himalayas where you do not have problem of the wateravailability and also the noise criteria will be much less with the CHW application. As

mentioned by Kanta A, proper design with Energry recovery will be more optimim from bothCapex and Opex point of view.



3

NILESHUnfollow Follow NILESH

NILESH POTDAR Dear Mr.ParthaI Think Air cooled chiller is suitable on this climate because cooling & Heating both arerequiredAir cooled chiller are available in 20 to 130 TR, Design for out door use in ambient

temperature of0 to 125 deg F.Low temperature processHeat recoveryThermal storageEnergy efficiencies that exceed ASHRAE 90.1 standardsReduce HFC-410 A refrigerant charge earns LEED EA Credit designsAbility generate up to 140 deg F leaving temperature for the the heat recovery applications



3

Jos MaraUnfollow Follow Jos Mara
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5/22

Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez Dear Mr. Partha.Before answering, I should like to get your reply to the following questions:1- Are you thinking the system be able to produce cooling and heating, or you havepreviously decided the heating be gotten by fuel or gas boilers?2- What about the size and use of your public areas?.

3- What about the location altitude over the sea level?



2

MilindUnfollow Follow Milind

Milind Pawar Dear Mr. Partha,Decision of selecting airconditioning system is situational and you consider following,

A) aVAILABILTY OF WATER , ELECTRICITY AND OCCUPANCY LEVEL INHOTEL,

1) Do you have enough water available? then use water cooled screw chiller which areefficient these days along with FCU having automatic balancing valves or PICVs.2) If you have scarcity of water then would suggest air cooled chiller and fcu.3) What would be your load profile ? If your occupancy level is going to be more than 70%all the time then do not go with VRF.B) Location : If your hotel is remote place then see service availability and technology youare using . VRF are quiet technical and you need to really go to OEMs only.C) Maintenance cost: water cooled chiller 1200 rs/ ton , air cooled chillers 1500-1600RS/TON and VRF 2500 -2800 rs/ton.D) Refrigerant : Use eco friendly refrigerant eighter R-134A / R 407 C

Sorry cant write every thing , if you need any advise on do let me know . You can contact meon [email protected]. I may be of help to you as I was in HVAC industry for 15 yrs . Itwill be just friedly advise to help you take right decision . Alternatively you can contact meon 9833830837.good luck



6
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6/22

RajanUnfollow Follow Rajan

Rajan padave hello Mr.Partha

if the location in Gangtok and if it is a business hotel you can certainly go for a VRF/VRVheat pump model by any company in INDIA. All the machines are good and infact they willnot derate much at the temperature range of the region.

But the technology to work good it takes a real good contractor to execute the project duringinstallation .

And the quality of power is also important. If their are frequent voltage surge in the region isuggest you put and surge arrestor in the elctrical panel for the VRF to protect the equipment.

Some equipment come in with the built in surge protection but i really donot know whichcompany your are going to go with but before finalisation you can ask the vendor regardingthis.



3

SekarUnfollow Follow Sekar

Sekar Ram Partha, We are currently desgining a project almost similar to yours. Havechosen VRF. Initial costs are lesser than CHW. VRF optimizes energy under partial loadconditions as well as during high diversity situations as you would expect from a hotelproject. Thesed days vendors can offer 100% OA units working in conjuction with roomsplits (concelaed or high wall mounted), so we are able to tackle the ventilation requirementstoo. Corridors, lift lobbies can go with cassette units. And in Hmiachal you have theadditional advantage of going for heat pumps if you so desire. Vendors can offer eithercooling only or cooling + heating. The vendor supplied controls are sohisticated to such anextent that the outdoor units can produce as low as 10% of its full load capacity and thecontrols can measure the cooling energy consumed by each indoor unit (depends on your

willingness to invest). For this application VRF could be a right choice. regardsSekar R
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7/22



3

NARESHUnfollow Follow NARESH

NARESH KUMAR Dear Sir,

I agree that in case of the hotel, seems to be VRF is more sutaible as suggested by Mr. SekarRam. As today in India projects of load 200 Ton are designed with VRF/VRV.However for more precise decision on hvac system you need to keep below pts in your mind:-1) Your overall budget2) Occupancy rate3 ) Availability of water

Please feel free to contact us for your quires. We are a Delhi based HVAC consulting &Contracting Firm. We are into this business sice last 30 years.You can write to us @[email protected]

Regards,

Naresh Kumar9541182360



2

JamesUnfollow Follow James

James Schulz Sir,

Having engineered and designed several VRF systems (LEED Silver) with the sameparameters as you describe, a VRF system coupled with an ERV air delivery system will give
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8/22

to the greatest level of comfort and energy efficiency. If there is an opportunity to assist,please feel free to contact me.

Sincerly,James Schulz



1

MahadevUnfollow Follow Mahadev

Mahadev Udamale Dear sirWe have another option good Free maintainance floor space not equipied Hot &coldboth option in that indual operation indual bill That is Temperzone Dx system ductable unitin new tube and tube techenology .also water cooled ductale system best of bestresult . Pl. send detais to get proper offer [email protected] .



0

Pushpinder SinghUnfollow Follow Pushpinder Singh

Pushpinder Singh Rana A/C application in 72 rooms...still not a big hotel to considerChiller..it must be VRF.This is application that would require part load operation most of times which means energyefficiency....indoor units come with noise level as low as 25dB and the from SVC &maintenance point of view, Chiller is disaster...is water so easily available in Himalayas...youare not harvesting rain water...it's still the ground water and we know the plight of watersupply in hilly region....also Chiller back-up operation is weak against Hi-tech VRF system in

case of failure....imagine of 1 ODU (VRF) but other modules still operating to carry on theoperation...what if Chiller fails? Would you ask your guests to change room or even hotel in
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9/22

the middle of night (worst case) would would the flood the blogs with this horribleexperience and giving deadly blow to your business....this all is not story but practicalexperience from a Co. that makes both Chiller & VRF..to me, both are my product and I'dlove to sell.....



3

Pushpinder SinghUnfollow Follow Pushpinder Singh

Pushpinder Singh Rana Thanks Mr. Kundu,And now let's see this matter from an Economic perspective....

However, at the onset, I feel I better clarify that I've no intention to promote my Co. or myproduct here..it's just between a sincere advice on VRF Vs Chiller irrespective of brandconsidered...so here goes the economic on the basis of LCC or total cost of ownership thatcovers initial, operation & maintenance cost (3 cost factors)..

Please exploit your buyer power and ask VRF & Chiller supplier around you to make acomparative analysis on all 3 costs...it's obvious that operation and maintenance cost of VRFwould be less and if the VRF supplier gives you product at the same initial price as of Chiller,the breakeven point or payback period won't exist at all (as a rule of thumb, VRF solutionmight have higher initial price but when competition becomes intense, you know how pricecuts/discounts are offered) and if you get VRV sys at a lower initial price, all gain isyours.......

Now the gist of all points...VRF is technically better by all means and it'd be more economic throughout it's life cycle

over Chiller......shall one still consider Chiller...for what??

regardsPushpinder Singh RanaMBA(Manchester), B.E., LEED-Green AssociateLG Air Conditioning & Energy Company


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10/22

2

GeneUnfollow Follow Gene

Gene Eng, PE After reading all of these comments. All have vaild points to ocnsider. I tendto favor VRF due to part laod potential. What is missing in most of discussions areavailability of power source. How $$ woudl be the cost to bring power in for the chiller andcomparing that for the VRF. VRF would have a much higher diversity factor so that thestartup current is much lower than the Chiller thus reudicng your overall electrical installationcost. Also,what are the available mechanic skill in your area. It is a huge consideration. If youhave a take 3-days to get a techincian there when you have problem with a chiller, you would

have a huge operating lost..consider such thing when you recommend or purchase anysystem, epecially for an Hotel. I think all in all, VRF is the logical and operational winner forHotel application.It takes a business man's view in here, not a pure Engineer.



3

Partha PratimUnfollow Follow Partha Pratim

Partha Pratim Kundu Dear Network Friends,Its been an enlightening discussion for the last couple of days. I am grateful to all for theirvaluable comments. This is where LinkedIn scores highly over any other social networkingsite.

I do appreciate each and every comment made. As a businessman i would give foremostpriority to saving capital & operating costs. As a hotelier, i would give topmost priority toGuest comfort. As a responsible citizen, i would give topmost priority to the efficient use ofenergy & technology which reduces the environmental impact.....

Partha Kundu


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11/22

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Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez Dear Mr. Partha,First of all, please excuse my English. If you do not understand something of what I write,feel free to ask again to have it clarified.My opinion about what is most convenient, if VRV system or water system, is that both are

correct, and is not possible to reply any advice without try to get previously more informationabout your hotel.I can think of questions like: Does the hotel already exists? Is it an existing hotel and atpresent is not equipped with HVAC, now you want to install?. Or on the contrary is a hotelproject and not yet built?.Other questions may be: What do you plan for operating the hotel, particularly for public areas? Is the re staurant onlyto be used by hotel guests, or is to be used also for major events and celebrations (weddings,parties, etc)? Are all the rooms the same size?. What is the size of the most of the rooms (area ft2), and

the smaller room?

Is the hotel a multi-storey building? How many floors? How many rooms per floor? Has the building a flat terrace on which to locate equipment, or the roof is pitched and

makes it impossible to install the equipment on the outside?To respond in a responsible manner would be many more questions to ask, so I will answerbased on assumptions, and letting you know what are the assumptions whose have beenconsidered.As is my intention to give a long answer, I will send it step by step in several sending duringthe weekend.Regards.



1

Pieter JanUnfollow Follow Pieter Jan
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12/22

Pieter Jan Duineveld I prefere VRV/VRF more than chillers.VRF/VRV are more efficient, and simpel.We build malls, houses, offices, hotels, cinema's etc whit VRV/VRFBut most important: the experiance of the installer!!Look carfully to his reference!

Stil practice is profing

only one point water (chillers) are better than vrv/vrf,We started in R22, changed to 407c, than R410.... what will come???And the indoor units are not compateble.....So after 10 yaers spare parts are difficult to find

Find a good installer and trust him...He has to build it, maintenance it etc...

Greatings from the Netherlands



2


Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez SECOND SENDING

Rules, codes and Standards to be applied:

I do not know the technical Codes and Standards to be applied in India. In Europe in general

and Spain in particular, is mandatory from 1998 the introducing of ventilation air (outside air)

into all air-conditioned rooms, and is not permitted that this air be introduced by means ofopened windows or natural ventilation. We need this outside air to be filtered, treated(temperature and humidity) and mechanically driven to the locals (both rooms and publicareas). The reason for this imposition is obviously to guarantee inside the building a cleanenvironment and quality air. Depending if Indias regulations require, or not, the existence ofthis outside air filtrated, treated and mechanically driven to the acclimatized spaces, willdepend largely the type of system to be recommended.

It is sure you must meet too with a Safety Code for Mechanical Refrigeration (which is

usually a "Copy and Paste" of the ASHRAE STANDARDS 15 and 34). This legislation, incase of centralized facility only applies to water main thermic machinery (chillers and / or

Heat Pumps) and the room in which they are located. In case of VRV, applies to the entirebuilding. Compliance with this law criminalizes much VRV system. I will explain later why
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13/22

this statement.

From now to the end I am going to assume that:

The legislation in India is similar to Europeans legislation, and it is man datory the driving

of outside air by mechanical means (fans), duly filtered and treated, to conditioned areas. It must be implemented a safety code for mechanical refrigeration similar to ASHRAE

code.



2

JonUnfollow Follow Jon

Jon Shipman Contracting Limited VRF no question. The installation is simple using smallpipe and you have the choice of 3 pipe heat recovery or 2 pipe which is even simpler toinstall.

I think chillers will always have their place especially for very large buildings and they havebecome a lot more efficient with the advent of screw compressors etc but VRF is the 21stcentury technology.

One of my customers in America has just won 2 Best Western hotels for Daikin overreplacement chillers, the driving factor was noise, the U.S. has an ageing population andpeople will not put up with something in the corner of the room sounding like it's about totake off it's almost impossible to hear a VRF fan coil.

Energy saving and an almost total lack of maintenance was a big factor and the fact that it isnow possible to install a VRF system in aluminium with Reflok. This system delivers a super

clean installation to the client virtually guaranteeing no compressor failures as the oil doesn'tlook like Coca Cola through brazing scale.

Regardless of what installation method you use most of the VRF manufacturers have greatproducts, Daikin would be my preference I have worked with those guys from the beginningand have their equipment in my own factory and in 6 years it has never missed a beat.

Regards

Jon Shipman
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14/22

Partha PratimUnfollowFollow Partha Pratim

Need advise from HVAC engineers on my 72 room business hotel. VRF or

Chiller Plant

Property located in Himalayan region. Max daytime temp - 28C (June) Min temp - 0-1C.Rainfall is heavy, more data in this link -http://goo.gl/AB7xQAdvantages & disadvantages of both systems. Capex & Opex of both the systems.

1 month ago

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PankajUnfollow Follow Pankaj

Pankaj Patil Magnetic elevated bearing chillers are 2 to 2.5 times more expensive thanconventional chillers in India and very few companies have this product in India. Blue starhave such chiller but available in less than 200 TR capacity. Daikin have wider range in thiscategory. Also due to power quality issue, customers are still not ready to go for this type of

product. But noise level is much lower than conventional chiller.
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