how money affects happiness: gretchen rubin · how money affects happiness: gretchen rubin author...

How Money Affects Happiness: Gretchen Rubin Author of the New York Times bestseller The Happiness Project

JD Roth: Hello everybody. It's J.D. Roth once again. And today I'm very

excited to be talking with Gretchen Rubin. You probably are most familiar with Gretchen as the author of the bestselling book, The Happiness Project. She also has a website. Is it still The Happiness Project or is it just GretchenRubin.com now?

Gretchen Rubin: Either way you get to it. The title of it is The Happiness Project,

but the URL is GretchenRubin.com. So but either way you can get there.

J.D. Roth: Okay, excellent. So of all the interviews that I'm doing for this

new book, I'm actually most excited about this one I think. Because, well first of all, I've been reading your stuff for a long time. And, second, the more I learn about personal finance and the more I learn about money, the more I come to believe that it's not the mechanics, like how to pay your bills or how to balance a budget, that actually hold people up. It's the psychology. And deep down – well, I started my own book, Your Money: The Missing Manual, my very first sentence is, "You don't want to be rich, you want to be happy." And I think that's very true. And so because of this, I'm excited to talk to Gretchen. Gretchen, thanks for being here.

Gretchen Rubin: Oh, I'm very happy to be talking to you. J.D. Roth: So you've spent a lot of time thinking and writing about wellbeing.

But your background isn't in psychology, necessarily. You're a lawyer, right, an attorney, and you've written books about history. I'm wondering if you can tell us how you found yourself writing about happiness. What led you here?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, first I had to make the switch from being a lawyer to being a

writer, and I had done that about 10 or 12 years before I picked up the subject of happiness. And, really, my interest – and I think it sounds like what you're interested in too – is human nature.

J.D. Roth: Right. Gretchen Rubin: Why do people do what they do? So all my books are related to

the subject of human nature. And I wrote two biographies, one of Churchill and one of JFK, because they're sort of exaggerated figures. And so you see human nature writ large in these giant, giant figures from history. And then one day as I was on a city bus, I was looking out the window and thought, "What do I want from life anyway? I want to be happy." But I realized I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I was happy or how I could be happier. And I decided I should have a happiness

How Money Affects Happiness, Interview with Gretchen Rubin

2

project. And at first it was just going to be for me, but then I realized it was such a rich topic that I wanted to write a whole book about it. And so I've been reading and writing and thinking about happiness and everything related to happiness, like home and habits ever since.

J.D. Roth: Wow, that's awesome. And I think it's kind of fun that you sat

down and asked yourself what is it you wanted from life and you decided you wanted to be happy. Because it was Aristotle, who said that, "the highest aim for everybody is happiness," right.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, and I think – you know sometimes people say, "Well, if you

think about happiness, don't you sort of trip over your own feet? And thinking about it will mean that you sort of – you get so frustrated or you're so solecistic you can't be happy." But I think a much greater danger for most people – at least it was certainly true for me – is that the danger is never thinking about it at all, and never thinking about, "Well, what could I do to be happier?" you know. "What's sort of a low-hanging fruit that I could do, just part of my ordinary day?" And it certainly was money. It's like, "Well, what are the thing – what are the aspects of my relationship with money that could make me happier?" Sometimes when you put it that way, you shine a spotlight on a different kind of answer. So I think that thinking about it very directly is actually, for most people, a very useful exercise.

J.D. Roth: Well, and I think it's very interesting because the research I've

seen, both on happiness and money, seem to imply the same thing. And that is if you try to pursue happiness directly, you're not likely to achieve it. Happiness is more of a byproduct than an end.

Gretchen Rubin: But okay, people say that. J.D. Roth: Un-huh. Gretchen Rubin: Un-huh, yes. But how would you – I don't – how would you

directly pursue happiness? J.D. Roth: Well, I – Gretchen Rubin: Or how would you directly pursue it that would be different from

the way you would indirectly pursue it? I mean I think most people would say the same thing.

J.D. Roth: You're right actually. Gretchen Rubin: That no one, no one, even marketers don't argue like, "If you buy

a fancy car you'll be happy." They say things like, "If you have adventure, you'll be happy." "If you feel like your beloved family members are safer, you'll be happy." They always connect it to these higher values. So I think no one – no one thinks that living the life of decadence is going to make you happy. So it's not


3

clear to me how you would indirectly pursue happiness in a way that would be different from how you would directly pursue it.

J.D. Roth: I think that's a great point actually. I've been reading – 'cause you

see it all the time in the happiness literature, the fact that happiness is a byproduct and not an end in and of itself. But I've never stopped to think, "Oh, well what exactly does it mean?" because I guess it is kind of an odious thing.

Gretchen Rubin: Well, no, I start – somebody said to me – I get very exercised that

these people often say this. And a guy was like, "I don't believe in pursuing happiness directly. I believe in helping other people, connecting with other people, learning to do something better and taking care of my body." And I'm like, "That's exactly what you would directly do to pursue happiness. Those are like the top things." So you know I don't know what the – I don't know what the – like, what's on the other side of that argument. But, anyway, it's certainly very valuable to think about what you think that would be, instead of just sort of assuming that you know.

J.D. Roth: Right. And so I guess where I was going to go with that,

originally, was that a lot of times people think that pursuing money itself, pursuing wealth, will make them happy. And yet from what I found, that's not necessarily true. It's not the money, itself, that makes you happy. It's the things you can do with the money obviously. And maybe it's the same kind of thing that you're arguing with the direct pursuit of happiness and indirect pursuit of happiness.

Gretchen Rubin: Well, the thing about money is that money, itself, does not buy

happiness. But money buys many, many things that do contribute mightily to happiness if you spend it wisely. So money – one of the biggest luxuries that money can buy is the freedom not to have to think about money all the time –

J.D. Roth: Exactly. Gretchen Rubin: – which is a tremendous luxury. J.D. Roth: It's a safety net, a security point. Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. A feeling of security, a feeling of being able to give to

others, a feeling of being able to help. If your child needs extra lessons in something, you can pay for that. If you want to have a party, you can have a party. You can buy towels without waiting for them to go on sale. You can take better care of your health. You can join a gym that's a little bit more expensive and that it's so much more convenient. But then you'll go. But I mean if you're buying your 50th pair of leather boots, that's not a wise choice. And I also think – and I bet you've seen this – is that money affects happiness much more in the negative. It's like health in that way. When you don't have your good health and you don't have money, you feel very dragged out. Then when


4

you have it, it's very easy to take it for granted and not think about how much the absence of it would affect you. And so it's something that is like it weighs down more than it boosts up, I think.

J.D. Roth: I think that's an interesting insight. One of the things that I've

seen in the research is that money can buy happiness up to a certain point. And then once people have a certain amount of money or a certain amount of material comfort, that additional money only brings on a marginal increase in happiness, so –

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, but it who that as people get wealthier they do get happier. J.D. Roth: Yeah, absolutely. Gretchen Rubin: And one of the things that I really – there's sort of a figure. I don't

know, I should trace it back. But there's of a figure like, "After $75,000.00 there's no difference in happiness." And you know this is obviously not true because $75,000.00 represents such – that's a meaningless number in a way. Because I live in New York City and $75,000.00 means one thing. But my grandparents lived in North Butte, Nebraska. $75,000.00 has been a lot different then. I have two kids; you have 12 kids; you have no kids. I want a horse; you want a turtle. I like to rent movies; you like to collect modern art. I have two elderly parents with a lot of health issues. Your parents are young and strong. I mean there's just so many ways in which that money, just it's like – that's like saying that the best height to be is 5 feet, six inches. That's the happiest place to be. Well, do you play basketball? Are you a jockey? There's so many factors that go into it for an individual. It might be true on a statistical level. But it doesn't really help you, as an individual, to know what's statistically true in that framework.

J.D. Roth: Well, I think what's most important, actually, is relative wealth

and – Gretchen Rubin: Yes, absolutely. That's – you put your finger on it. J.D. Roth: Yeah, so how much money do you have compared to your

neighbor, compared to your friends, compared to your family? And beyond that, more than just relative wealth. It's what are your expectations and how does your reality fit those expectations. So if you don't have a – I know people who don't have a lot of money. And yet they're happy as can be, even though their friends are wealthy, because their expectations are lower and they don't want a lot. They're happy with what they have, and it's a choice they make.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. I have a friend – two friends who are married. And they

said that they deliberately constructed their life so that at any point if they wanted to work for the government that it wouldn't affect their lifestyle. They wouldn't have to move to a different


5

house or go to – have to send their kids to different schools. They always wanted to feel free, because they're very dedicated to government services, so they go in and out of government all they time. And they said they didn't want to – because a lot of times – and this is your point about expectations – you build yourself into a certain income. You make choices that mean that you have to earn a certain amount of money. And if you made different choices you would feel much freer not to make that amount of money. So I thought that that showed a lot of forethought on that – on their side that they realized, "Well, we've gotta construct it so we won't feel trapped in the private sector, because we don't want to feel trapped. We want to feel like we can always make the other choice." You know because with government jobs, it's like sometimes it's the right time, sometimes it's the wrong time. You bounce around a lot. And so they just always wanted to preserve that option.

J.D. Roth: I think that's so smart. One of the things that I've come to realize

over the past few years – we always hear the advice that in order to prepare for retirement and to make sure that you've got a buffer, you should save 10 percent of your income or 20 percent of your income. And I'm not going to say that it's bad to save 10 or 20 percent of your income. But it's better to save even more, which can be difficult for some people. But if you can save 50 percent of your income, you trade this huge gap between what you need or want and what you actually have available, and that allows you so much more freedom.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. That's the thing is I think one of things that money can

represent to people is freedom. And that's part of why it's – money, what – there's this wonderful Gertrude Stein line where she says, "Money is money, and everyone has to decide sooner or later whether money is money. And they always decide that money is money." And then it's like money is money.

J.D. Roth: It's a tool. So in writing about happiness, you discovered that a

lot of the – what you were writing about was actually related to habits. So your next book is going to be about habits. And I find it interesting that you say that, "Habits are the inevitable architecture of everyday life and a significant element of happiness." So what do you mean by that?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, you know it's interesting. When they do research on habits,

it's something like 40, 45 percent of our everyday life is governed by habits. So, clearly, they're important for happiness just because they're happening all the time. That's the way work is 'cause it's why you spend so much of your time at work. Of course it's going to affect your happiness. But also, as I was looking at people and people who are happier and people who are less happy, and also when I would talk to people about what their happiness challenges were, I would see, over and over, that people who had habits that worked for them were happier. And people who had habits that didn't fit, were not working for them,


6

or when they were really struggling to make or break a habit, it was a serious happiness issue for them. And I began to see that if you can get a grip on your habits, then you're much better able to construct a life that is going to support your happiness. Because like with savings – perfect that you just mentioned – it's a perfect example. That's something that you can either automatically do it and it takes no effort, no thought. It just runs, just happens. Or you can be deciding every time or trying to make yourself do it and, more or less, succeeding or failing. And so I became very – and I was so puzzled by some things about habits that no one else seemed to be – couldn't notice or be concerned with.

J.D. Roth: Like what? Gretchen Rubin: Like there's this assumption – when you read all the habit stuff,

there's kind of an assumption that everyone has more or less the same aptitude to form habits. And that's just clearly not true. If we could just look around at people in our life, that's just not true.

J.D. Roth: I can look at myself. Gretchen Rubin: And there's – yeah, and there seems to be also an assumption

that people have the same attitude towards habits. Well, I love habits and embrace them, but I have friends who fear them and resist them. So they have a whole different attitude towards habits. And then there are things where people at some point in their life they will easily have a habit. And then, at some times, they won't be able to form they won't be able to form the very same habit. Like a friend of mine who said, "When I was in high school I was on the track team. I never missed a track practice. Why can't I go running on my own now?" Same person, same habit. Why not? And then also, a lot of them do – people like, "Oh, I really should go to a spin class," but they can't make themselves go. But you're like, "Well, you don't really want to go to that class, so I sort of see why you don't." But then there are people who are like, "I love going for a walk with my dog after work. I look forward to it with pleasure. I enjoy it. I look back on it. It's good for me. It's fun. Why can't I make myself go for a walk with my dog?" I'm like, "Why can't you?" So that you know there seem to be all these big mysteries of habits, and I just became determined to try to plum the mysteries and figure it out for myself, so.

J.D. Roth: I'm eager to read this book. It sounds like it starts – well, the

happiness stuff and the habit stuff kind of is related to the work of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and his concept of flow. And I'm not going to get into that here, but I find his work on flow just so fascinating because it – he talks about building purpose and meaning and finding happiness and how habit can help us do that.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. Well you know flow is interesting because flow is sort of –

when you're in flow, you're neither happy nor sad because you're


7

not really – you're really so outside yourself. It's interesting. It's a very – it's related to happiness, but it's not the same thing as happiness.

J.D. Roth: Oh, that's an interesting insight, too, because to me, in my head I

equate the two, and I'm going to have to go back and read the book. I really like it. So it sounds to me as if, when you're talking about habit, you're kind of talking about routine. Are habit and routine the same thing, or are there differences?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, I think a routine is a series of habits. So you have your

morning routine which is your series of habits. And then some people will be like, "Well, what's a ritual?" A ritual is a habit that has a transcendent meaning. So for most people brushing their teeth doesn't have a transcendent meaning. But if you say a prayer of thanksgiving for your teeth as you're brushing your teeth, then that could become a ritual. Or something – or hand washing, or something like that could from being a habit to a ritual. So what I try to do is lay out 21 strategies that I've identified that people can employ to make or break a habit. Because maybe for you, three of those strategies would work, and for somebody else a different three would work. Because you're different from me; we have different challenges, different personalities, different things work for us. You're a night person; I'm a morning person. There's a million things that you kind of have to take into account as you're thinking about it.

J.D. Roth: I think that's so smart too. My main model in Get Rich Slowly

was always do what works for you. Gretchen Rubin: Yes. J.D. Roth: And by that, I meant there's no one right way to accomplish any

task. You have to – I feel like too many people in the financial world try to lay down these laws and say, "This is the one right way to get out of debt," or "This is the one right way to do a budget." And it's just not so.

Gretchen Rubin: Well – J.D. Roth: There are – there's more than one way to accomplish anything. Gretchen Rubin: No. And I think it's so true. There's like this impulse to come up

with a one-size-fits-all solution. And I think that this is why a lot of people don't succeed is they're like, "Oh, well. I know that the way to exercise is to do it first thing in the morning." And it's like, well, that doesn't work for you if you're a night person. Morning people, that would work for them, but it's not going to work for you because you can barely get up at 9:00 AM right now to get ready for work. There's no way you're going to get up at 8:00 and go for a run. It's just not realistic at all. So why are you wasting your time. So you might feel like, "I can't for the habit of exercising." But, in fact, if you tried to go after work, even though


8

a lot of people say, "Oh, that's terrible. It'll interfere with your sleep and you won't do blah, blah, blah," well, you know it might work for you. And so I think you're exactly right. The first thing to do is to start with self-knowledge. To say, "What kind of person am I? What's worked for me in the past? When have I failed in the past? What sounds appealing to me? What sounds doable to me? And there's so many things where the opposite things work. Some people – one thing you often here is, "Start small. Keep it super, super manageable, low bar." But some people get excited by a big, big hairy audacious goal, right. Some people –

J.D. Roth: Right. Gretchen Rubin: – they're excited by something big, and taking little steps bores

them. They feel like there's no momentum and they lose interest, and then they don't stick to it. But if they had something big, maybe they would stick to it. It's not that there's a right way or wrong way, exactly what you say. There's no one answer. It's what works for you. So you've got to take that time to do self-reflection, which is – can be kind of a pain. But it's really an important step.

J.D. Roth: Well, and it can be tough to be honest with yourself. Gretchen Rubin: Ach, yes. J.D. Roth: I mean going with what you're talking about right now about

different ways, different approaches working for different people, one of the things that I struggle with sometimes is my alcohol consumption. And I –

Gretchen Rubin: Oh, yes. J.D. Roth: – I started talking about his on this blog and stuff. And there are

times I think, "Oh, my gosh. I drink too much." And so a challenge I have for myself is to try to find ways to drink less. And my girlfriend, she's the kind of person who can say, "Oh, you know I'm just going to have a drink or two a couple nights a week." For me, I fall into the trap where – I think it was F. Scott Fitzgerald says, "First I take a drink. Then the drink takes a drink, and then the drink takes me." So I'm the kind of person who tends to be like all or nothing.

Gretchen Rubin: Yup. J.D. Roth: So I need to say, "For the month of January, I'm not drinking,"

which is what I've been doing. And it's an interesting exercise for me, and I find that I can do it. It's much easier for me to give up drinking entirely than it is to say, "Oh, no. I'm just going to drink once in a while."

Gretchen Rubin: Yup. No, I talk about that with the abstainer/moderator

difference. And it's interesting. Many people want to drink less.


9

And it's not the same thing as being an alcoholic who needs to give up drinking at all. These are people who, like you, who just feel like they'd feel better if they drank less.

J.D. Roth: Oh, yeah. Gretchen Rubin: And with – so the abstainer/moderator is a really interesting thing.

I thought this was just me, but it turns out there's a lot of people like this. It sounds like you're one of – one in my camp. For some people, it's much easier to give something up all together than it is to indulge a little bit. And it's very important to no this, because both sides try to convince each other. And moderators – those are the people who can have a little bit – will often say things like, "You shouldn't be so rigid with yourself. If you deny yourself everything you'll fall off the wagon. It's not healthy to always say no to yourself." But the thing is, for an abstainer, it's easier. It's easier never to have French fries. It's easier to never have sugar. It's easier to say none that can manage it a little bit. And one of the ways I always say that – this is a good test for whether you're an abstainer or moderator is let's say that I handed you – and here, J.D., I'll ask you to – let's say I handed you a bar of delicious chocolate. And I said, "Hey, J.D., eat a square of that chocolate." So you eat a square. And then I'm like, 'Okay, hey, just put the rest of it in the drawer of your desk." For the rest of the day, would you be like, "Oh, my gosh. When am I gonna eat the rest of that chocolate bar?" Or would you be like, "Oh, I had a little bit of something sweet. I don't want anymore. I'll have another square tomorrow."

J.D. Roth: No. Gretchen Rubin: I would be haunted by the chocolate bar. J.D. Roth: Yeah, me too. So this is another thing I'm doing this month is

doing no sugar. But I did this stupid, stupid thing. I went to Costco the other day and I bought a bag of these little Lindt Truffles, or whatever they're called. And I put it up in the cupboard and I was like, "All right, yeah. I can have one of those once in a while." No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Gretchen Rubin: Why did you buy – if you gave up sugar, why did you buy them? J.D. Roth: Well, because I wanted – I don't go to Costco that often. I

thought, "Oh, I'll have them when I'm done with my diet. Gretchen Rubin: Okay, can I say something? Gretchen Rubin: Yes. Gretchen Rubin: Okay. One of my favorite [talking while laughing] of my habits is

that loophole. Because I already – there's people who are making habits are constantly on the lookout for loopholes. We're like cell phones searching for a signal. What is my loophole? So what


10

you did is the loophole – is loophole number 7, which is called the planned fail loophole. [Laughter]. Because when we make a decision that doesn't seem related to the habit that we want to form, and then we're like – but we seem to have planned to fail, to put ourselves in a this irresistible situation. And often people will say like, "Well, I'm not buying this for myself. I'm just buying it to have around the house in case company comes over." It's like yeah. "Oh, you know, why not sit in the smoking section?" Why are you sitting in – so I would challenge you to say, in what – if you're giving up sugar, in what universe is buying a Costco-size package of Lindt Truffles – how does that fit into bargains are a big loophole. Oh I can't –

J.D. Roth: Oh, come on Gretchen. Gretchen Rubin: – like, this is a huge bargain – J.D. Roth: Don't be logical with me. Gretchen Rubin: – right. Convenience foods are almost always the things that we

should be – they're almost always the foods that we should be making less convenient, not more convenient. So a giant economy-size thing of truffles? Every warning sign and sirens should be going off in your brain.

J.D. Roth: Oh, my gosh. I think I was probably hungry at the time. I think

this is fascinating because it relates directly to personal finance. When I was getting out of debt, when I was struggling with debt, one of the problems I had was I continued to spend money on comic books. Comic books were this thing that I wanted. And I tried to do things like say, "All right, I'll give myself a budget. I'll allow myself $50.00 a month on comic books or $20.00 a month on comic books," or whatever it was I decided. The problem was I'd keep going into the comic book store or I'd go –

Gretchen Rubin: Uh-uh. J.D. Roth: – into Amazon and look at the books. Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. J.D. Roth: So I put myself directly in the situation where I was going to be

tempted. Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. J.D. Roth: And because I'm, as you call it, an abstainer, I thought it was

much more effective to just say, "Nope, I'm not gonna go into the stores. I'm not gonna look at the comic books." And it didn't prevent me from buying them, but it sharply reduced my spending.


11

Gretchen Rubin: That is so smart. So did you give yourself no budget or you just didn't allow yourself to look past like –

J.D. Roth: I didn't allow – I stopped trying to pretend that I had a budget for

it. And I just – I tried to avoid exposure. I stopped reading comic book blogs; I stopped going into the stores, and I just tried to avoid comic books entirely so that I wouldn't be tempted.

Gretchen Rubin: That is so interesting. Yeah, I mean that's – you're exactly right.

The abstainer/moderator isn't just for food or alcohol. I had a friend who played Ruzzle, and she was saying like –

J.D. Roth: Ruzzle. What is Ruzzle. Gretchen Rubin: I don't even know. It's some kind of game, word game that you

play on your phone. And she said she realized she wasn’t reading any books, because she would always read books before she went to bed at night. But instead, now she was playing Ruzzle. And she had – she's like, "I had to delete it on my phone, on my iPad, on my desktop, everywhere because – " She said, "It was like I just – it was like I just – once I had it, I could not stop." Now, sometimes people think, "Well, but isn't your life a little bit bleaker because you don't have your love of comic book, you don't have your love of Ruzzle." And I think that that's a really important thing to think about. But then – but I think, sometimes, when you do feel sort of out of control of yourself, like you're not serving your bigger values, that's a bad feeling. And so you can say to yourself, "There will come a time when I'll go back to comic books. But right now, right now I feel like I'm serving myself better. I'm choosing not to do it." My sister had this amazing phrase. Because I was talking to her about being an abstainer, and it turned out she was an abstainer. And I'd always thought she was a moderator. And her big weakness was French fries. And she said, "I realized that it's just easier for me not to eat the French fries then to just try to eat a couple or split a helping or whatever." But my sister's one of these people that always has to say yes to herself. She doesn't like to say no to herself. And I said, "But how do you say yes to yourself when you're saying no to French fries?" And she said, "Well, I tell myself, "Now, I'm free from French fries." And that's how it feels to me. If you can be free of something by giving it up, it's for an abstainer. Moderators, it's not the same. Its really for an abstainer. You do feel free. You do feel freer. It's like off your mind in a way.

J.D. Roth: Right. That's exactly it. Gretchen Rubin: That craving, that out-of-control chasing feeling goes away, and

it's not fun to feel that way, really. J.D. Roth: No. By removing it, it's no longer – you don't have to make the

decision. You're not tempted. It's just like, "Nope, I'm done with it." And the thing is, Gretchen, what I found with the comic books is after a couple of years of saying, "No, no, no," I could just


12

gradually reintroduce them. And now, I don't have this problem where I go in and just buy a bunch of comics I'm never going to read. Every once in a while I'll buy one or something. And I've become a moderator in that regard and with books.

Gretchen Rubin: Yes. And see that's so interesting. Yeah, so you don't have to

say like, "It's going to be this way forever." You're just like, "Well, right now, this is what works for me. This is what I'm choosing to do right now," always to remind ourselves that we're making a choice. But we can choose wisely, and we can make choices that will help set ourselves up. But you said something a minute ago that I think is incredibly important, which is about making a decision. And I think that's where habits can really come in handy. Because when you're making a decision, any decision, the smallest decision, you know what pair of jeans to wear today, it drains you. And the fact is habits were created by the brain to save us the mental energy of deciding. We don't have to decide whether to wear our seatbelts. We just do it. We don't have to decide whether we're going to floss – brush our teeth. We just do it. And so the more you're just like, "Am I going to go to the comic store? No, I'm not 'cause I don't go to comics bookstores." "Am I going to – am I going to buy candy when I go to Costco? No, I'm not," because you know – because then you don't have to decide. It's just easier. And so anytime there's something where you want to just do something automatically, the more you can make it into a habit, then the easier it becomes because you're not wearing yourself out with debate. You know people who are like – oh, like I – did you see this in college where like – I was like Hermione Granger, and I never missed a class. And so I never debated like, "Should I get up and go to class?" because I'm like, "Yeah."

J.D. Roth: Yeah. I never missed classes either. Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. But then there's some people who were – everyday they

were like, "Ah, should I go to philosophy class?" and it's this huge debate for them. And so not – whether or not they go, they're exhausted and drained, and their self-control is depleted. And then half the time they would decide not to go, so then they made a choice that later on they would regret. So the more you just sort of say like, "You know what. I've made my decision. I'm not going to constantly visit. I'm just going to do this as a habit," it just – it preserves your mental energy for things – 'cause we got so many demands on our minds. You have to try to save what you can.

J.D. Roth: And this goes directly – I didn't think we would touch on things

directly related to the chief financial officer, Tom Keesy, that I'm using for the book. But this worked perfectly because one of the things that I argue is you ought to automate as much as possible because –

Gretchen Rubin: Absolutely, yeah, yeah.


13

J.D. Roth: – it removes the need to make decisions. Gretchen Rubin: [Break in audio] 100 percent, 100 percent. Absolutely. That's the

– yes, because then there's no decision. You do something once and it's done. Automatic payment or automatic savings or – and then you're also – and then you don't have to worry about it. So like a friend of mine said, "Oh I was – I just was kind of –" she had really little children and she was like, "But I would – the idea of college, paying for college would just float through my mind and sort of make me feel sick to my stomach and come and go." And then she said, "Finally, I just put up an automatic savings plan. And now I'm saving, and also I'm not having that constant sort of horrible wave of anticipatory angst and guilt," because she's like, "I know I'm doing what I should." So she gets – sort of gets triple benefits from it. Absolutely, that automation is so helpful.

J.D. Roth: Yeah. Now, one last thing. This is already running longer than I

expected. I hope it's okay. Do you have a place that you need to get to?

Gretchen Rubin: I'm okay. J.D. Roth: Okay, good. I saw – another thing that you've mentioned before

is the difference between being an over buyer and an under buyer. And I find this fascinating because I am most certainly an over buyer. And by that, I mean that well, I go to Costco and I buy my box of truffles and my huge pack of toilet paper. And I get in such trouble for this. When I find something that I like, I'll buy three or four of it 'cause I'm afraid it might not be there again. And so I have –

Gretchen Rubin: Like a tee shirt in different colors, that kinda thing. J.D. Roth: Yeah, so or hiking boots. I have this set of hiking boots that I

bought like six years ago. And the problem is when you buy three pair of the hiking boots, eventually the material starts to degrade, even if you're not wearing them.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. J.D. Roth: And my girlfriend, on the other hand, is an under buyer. And so

she'll often find that she doesn't have things she needs because she's like, "Well, why would I need cough syrup here. I don't have a cough."

Gretchen Rubin: Oh, that is – J.D. Roth: And when she does get a cough, I have to go out in the middle of

the night to buy cough syrup. Gretchen Rubin: Yes, that's a total under buyer way of thinking, yes. I'm an under

buyer, yes. So it's funny when they're paired up. Yeah, yeah.


14

It's helpful just to recognize – again, back to this idea that we were talking about earlier of self-knowledge. I think if you know about it, because now that I know that I'm an under buyer – some people have to hold themselves off from buying. But I have to really encourage myself to buy, and say things like, "Oh, Double AA batteries. Let's get some Double AA batteries." I don't have to buy just one tube of toothpaste because I know we're going to use it up. And if you've got a whole family using one tube of toothpaste, it's going to go up. But things or bulk. Don't wait until the gas tank is all the way to empty because you'll go ahead and fill it up when it's a quarter of a tank, even though, as an under buyer, you want to – you want to just postpone. We just don't like – there's so many things we don't like about it so we want to postpone, postpone. But then if you're an over buyer, you can say to yourself like, "You know, how fast am I going to use this up? How many coffee mugs does one family need."

J.D. Roth: Right. Gretchen Rubin: I have a friend who – an over buyer friend who bought all these

clothes for her newborn baby. But then her baby was born larger than she expected, and then by the time –

J.D. Roth: Oh. Gretchen Rubin: – the seasons rolled around and everything, her daughter had

outgrown a whole bunch of clothes before she could even walk. And it's like what – and I think over buyers – and I don't know if this is your experience – a lot of it is they feel pressure because they feel like they have to do a lot of errands, they have to put a lot of stuff away, they have to manage all this stuff. They feel guilty when things expire or don't get used properly.

J.D. Roth: Yes. Gretchen Rubin: And then – and don't – and so there's a lot of anxiety with being

an over buyer. But there's a lot of anxiety with being an under buyer, like the – you see your girlfriend. You're the one making the midnight run to the drugstore, so sometimes it's you that's bearing the cost. Or like, "Oh, I don't have mittens and it's incredibly cold outside, but because it's February nobody has mittens in stock anymore," or you know, "Boy, I really wish I had some butter, but I don't. So there goes my plans for lunch." You know, whatever. Again, if you know your own tendencies and kind of mindfully counteract it when you see yourself heading in the wrong direction.

J.D. Roth: Right. But it takes work. So being an over buyer, one of the

things that I've struggled with for a decade now, once I recognized the problem, is I have too much stuff. And when I lived at the old house and was married, it was a problem that my wife and I struggled with constantly. We just had too much stuff. And there's this psychological burden that comes with owning so


15

many things, especially things you don't use, you have to store and all that. So I gradually – I tried to become mindful of the fact that I am an over buyer and do tend to have too much stuff. So because of that, I try to err on the side of caution. And when I'm able to make a cautious decision, I ask myself, "Do I really need this or want it, or is it just going to become clutter."

Gretchen Rubin: Yes, well one good – there's a couple of good tests. One is, "Do I

imagine that I would use this tomorrow?" So the thing with your truffles is you're like, "No, I don't want to have this tomorrow because I'm giving up sugar. I'm not going to have this for a month." And then you're like, "Um, do I really want to have them for a month before I eat them? Maybe not." Or if you're buying clothes, a lot of times if you're like, "Ooh, this will come in handy." It's like, "But would you wear it tomorrow?" And you're like, "Nah, I wouldn't wear it tomorrow." Maybe that's a sign that maybe you're not –

[Crosstalk]. J.D. Roth: I like that question. Gretchen Rubin: One thing that somebody suggested that I think is a great idea, is

if you see something that you want and you're going around with a cart, don't put it in the cart. Only put things in your cart that are on your list. And then – but say to yourself, "You know what. If I go around the store and when I get to the shopping lane, I just had – you know what, I really do want that kite." And you can go back for it. But you have to make this special trip for it and you got to remember that you want it. And she said usually she either forgot all about it by the time she got to the checkout, or she was tired and she's like, "Ah, it's not worth it. I'll get it next time, if ever." And so sometimes just putting in a little bit of delay, making a little bit of inconvenience for yourself to break that kind of toss it in the basket. Some people – and it's interesting about online shopping – for some – because for some people, online shopping is helpful because they're more likely to impulse shop if they're in a store and they see things. And they see things they wouldn't otherwise get, and it's so easy to just – they are more likely to impulse buy when they're actually surrounded by stuff. Then other people, they're more likely to impulse buy online 'cause it's just click, click, click, click, click. And, yeah, and so you sort of have to know if you're trying to buy less, which is your less preferred way of shopping, and shop that way. If you do better in person – I mean if you stick to your – what you – your list better in person, go in person. If you stick better to your list online, maybe online.

J.D. Roth: That's interesting 'cause it's another dichotomy, like abstainer

versus moderator and over buyer versus under buyer. Gretchen Rubin: It just depends on how you interact with it. It's interesting. One

thing about shopping that has seemed true to me, and it's very


16

obviously as an under buyer, since I don't like to shop. It's that for a lot of people – we spend so much time in our heads. And for some people shopping, it's like a tactile physical thing. You're out in the world and you're engaging with people and fabrics and smells and tastes and beautiful sights and everything. And so there's something about it. But I – one person come and said on my blog that she goes to really expensive stores where she can't afford, and she just treats it like a museum. And she said, "But you can touch everything and you can look at." And she says, "It's beautifully presented. And I just go there to enjoy it. But I can't buy." But she said, "I still go to a place where I cannot buy because I don't want to be tempted to buy." But she thinks of it as like an experience. And, in a lot of ways, I think people do shop as an experience. And you can say to yourself, "I can shop as an experience. I don't need to buy." That doesn't have to be part of it if the pleasure that I'm getting out of it is really related to the fun of shopping.

J.D. Roth: Exactly. Wow. I feel like this has been a great conversation. But

before I let go, I'm wondering if you've got any tips that you can provide listeners for – I don't know – building better financial habits based on the research you've done, or other things people can do to build better financial habits or –

Gretchen Rubin: Well, just the simplest thing, and I'm sure you've talked about this

many, many times. Like a great – first start with self-knowledge. We talked about that at length. So self-knowledge. The other thing is monitoring. One of the things that comes up over and over again in the research, and it's certainly true in my experience, is if you just keep track of anything you tend to do a better job. And your impulse to keep track of something is much less when you are doing something that you think you shouldn't. And so, you're very aware of the impulse not to write something down or not to track something because that's probably the danger moment. But just tracking what you're spending and saving is a great first step. If you feel like you can't take on anything else, just start tracking. And because, over and over, they show in all different kinds of behaviors, mere monitoring is usually enough to begin people to start making steps of behaving in ways that are more in line with their values.

J.D. Roth: And it's kind of that whole notion of what gets measured gets

managed. Gretchen Rubin: Absolutely. You manage what you measure. It's absolutely true.

And if there's something that's important to you, find a way to measure it. You know people will say to you, like, "Oh, but you can't measure quality time with your children." I'm like, "Oh yes you can, yes you can. Measure that. You can measure a lot of things. You can measure time in nature. You can measure – because you can measure time, you know.


17

J.D. Roth: Yeah, and this has been especially true in my own life. I'm the kind of person who definitely, whatever I measure I do much better at.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. J.D. Roth: And if I found that if I abandoned the measurement, it's because I

know I'm doing something wrong or against what I want to be doing.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, it's like a warning sign, right. J.D. Roth: Yes, exactly. Gretchen Rubin: I still with eating, because I use the Javelin Up Band and I use it

for several monitoring things. But one of the things I monitor is what I eat. And it's when I'm like, "Oh, what exactly did I eat at dinner last night. I don't know. I'll start fresh tomorrow." It's like, "Well, let's go back and thing about that. What exactly – how much cheese did I eat," because that urge to skip is that's when you need to pay special attention.

J.D. Roth: Well, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for chatting with

us today, Gretchen. Gretchen Rubin: Oh my pleasure. I feel like we could talk all day. J.D. Roth: I know. Me too. So if you want to read more about Gretchen's

philosophy, you can read The Happiness Project. And next year, you'll be able to read her book about habits, which is called – or will be called, Before and After, is that right?

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. All right. Thanks so much. Excellent. Thanks so much.

###

how money affects happiness: gretchen rubin · how money affects happiness: gretchen rubin author...

Documents