high lube oil temp 1453407.s

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Ammar

Like Comment (36) May 31, 2013

High lube oil temp Ammar I.Chief mechanical engineer at North oil company

solar centaur 40 gas turbine has got a tripping on high lube oil diff. Temp. Between header and gearbox drain . Could you people share your experiences in this regard on your machines? Also what effect could it cause to the machine? Thanks. Hoping great participation.

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Leonardo G. Mechanical Resident Leader in Yemen LNG

I'm srry I don't know the solar turbine. Also is not enoug (for me ) only this information. If the temperature in hte bearing is normal and in the drain is high the problem probable came from the; A-Insolation of drain(is the drain are in the hot area) B- if the higt temprature are in the bearing and low in the drain the problem came from the thermocouple. C-I'm sorry but for give more better dettailsI need know better Solar machins I talk for ge machins. Regards

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PS Please give me the temperature in the header Gear box bearing if Have and the drain. In case don't the bearing temperature have ti take in consideration: Vent gera box is good? Ifyes have bearing problem or instruments problem

Ammar I. Chief mechanical engineer at North oil company

Dear, Solar gas turbine was tripped due high differential lube oil teperature between gear box drain and header supply,at the same time all bearing temperature rising above the limit


The diff. Temp. Is 40 f


In this case the diferential are true. The instrument work well. In GE header the temperature are 55Celsius and the bearing temperature in the gear box bearing around 60 to 80 Celsius. Critical medium critical temperature is 115Celsius. 40 F is the desine temperature correct? becouse for me the diferential temperature 40F is low. You have thermocouple in the gearbox bearing?if yes please give me the bearing temperature? Vent of gear box is static or connected in the oil tank under negativetank pressure?


We have RTD on gearbox drain, bearing temperature as follows Brg1=90,brg2=81,brg3,4=78, and the temp.of lube oil enter the cooler was 84and discharge from cooler64


Vent of gear box iam not quit sure,I must check it , give me pls the different.what can cause. But at the same time compressor bearing temperature are within the limit


Der Mr. Ammr The vloue that you give me are un celsius? maybe yes. So..Temperature from oil cooler are high and more high in the header. Normal the bearing temperature oil are beetween 50 to 55Celsius and from cooler not more at 50 52 Celsius becouse the thermostatic alve to be mixt with bypass the return oil from cooler to oil



from tank. (this is the temperature in Hevy gas turbine with whit metal bearing) In this case have to looking the oil cooler (if air cooler if the fan work well and if the bandle tube eternal side are clean. In case have water cooler looking the D.T.water temperature in and out if good orn not if the water temperature is in and out is the same looking the water thermostatic valve if are in open full open position need to be clean the cooler bandle. If the thermo valve is closed need to open and encrease the water flow. Any way the header bearing need 50 max 55 Celsius. Any case looking the manual instruction regarding the specification temperature that need the bearing. In GE H.G.T. the max. temperature must be 55 Ceslius. Gear box Vent; if don't have the vent encrease the temperature and leaking some oil or vapour oil in the bearing and also have noise from the gera box. (sorry for my english but don't use my traslater now)

Kevin K. Field tech at Solar Turbines

Is this a generator? How many hours on the gearbox? If it is the drain rtd it should hit alarm, is it? These are checked (PLC?) by the plc for 200deg F alarm, and 250 deg F for shutdown. I have 28 years in field service for Solar.


I should have added, iwhat is the "typical tempurature"? Has there been a vibration survey done?


Dear kevin, The train consist of solar centur 40drive solar compressor . The plc copare the temperature for gear box drain with header temperature if it reaches 45 f the turbine trip Today i increase the setting of lube oil header pressur by lube oil regulator the unit run two ohours and shutted down again. No vibration observe.


I should have added, gear box drain temp.190.4F and lube oil header temperature 152.6 F.


Is this a solar supplied control set? How old? I take it this is an increaser gearbox, is the thrust bearing gap being measured by temp, or an axial prox probe?

Kevin K.



Field tech at Solar Turbines

I've never seen control logic that compares drain temp to header. "norm" has been 225 deg F. alarm, 250 deg. f shutdown, these temps you have if staedy are fine.


Dear sir, It is not solar supplied control set it have been upgraded lastly,yes it is increaser gear box there is an RTD inserted in gear box drain .what should i do.


As I stated those temp values are normal. I'd suggest you contact the person that wrote the control logic, and ask them what to do.Solar logic is simple as stated if the rtd temp reach 225 deg F, alarm, 250 deg F shutdown. Oil in is already at 150+. I don't at all understand this logic.


Could you please give me any document to prove what we said about temperature and solar logic set. Any document if it is possible. I will appreciate.


I am retired. I might have a backup copy of a compressor plc program. You can contact Solar with what you have.


Thanks for your cooperation, just last questions please, what this signal means High gearbox drain diff temp.


I would recommend you request an engineering spec from Solar on this. That information is open to you. Do you have any current service bulletins? This might be covered in that. Solar won't disclose technical letters to non employees, but the ERL (engineering release letter) you should be able to obtain. If you cannot get what you need you can contact me at [email protected]


For whatever reason, the control logic is looking at header temp, and comparing it to drain temp, subtracting it (differencial), and I assume on what you posted it is compaing the diffreential temp to 45 degrees, if greater than or (again I assume) equal to 45 shutdown. Is there no alarm?




Yes Mr. Kolof 1I agree your racomandation

Yordan Y. Control and instrument engineer

Hi! If the turbine was running with this logic before - that means that your mechanicall losses in gear box increasing (i assume that no problem with measurements). It is good way to chech the condition of gear box by starter motor current (compare it with previos one in good condition), turn the GP manually and check for any unusual noises. Check if something come in oil pipe for gear box and your oil flow is redused.


He said the control system was retrofitted. He didn't say how long this condition has exsisted since then.


Agree. But usually after retrofitting from non manufacturing company there are commissioning prosedures, 72 hour test, performance test .....


Point is the temps he has are not high.


In order to discover increased mechanical losses it is not enough to put some limits. You should know delta T and flow to calculate them. If we assume that the flow is constant (practicaly it is) than variable is only deltaT.


The gearbox drain is orficed. If the control system was retrofitted in the winter where the header oil temp was much cooler then proportionally the drain temp is also. I've never seen a differential temp control system as is described. Looking back at some solar tech letters all I could find was engine thrust bearing min max and depending on viscosity, again, these lube oil temps are fine..




I thing the header temperature should be the same. I also never seen something like this, but i think that it is good solution to implement such a logic (of course if it is tunned well).


I am going to drop of this thread as again I have said these temps are normal. The drain temp reflects the work being done by the gearbox. The compressors, and again I assume at least a two body low stage/high stage has bearing drain temp rtds. Those are in for protection of the babbit balanance piston seals. The GP/engine thrust bearing temps are monitored for excessive seal clearance since Solar utilizes combustion air for sealing. Thats also the reason for hot section postlube, to cool the bearings after shutdown.

Jimmy S. Owner, Black Diamond Security Solutions

Sounds like you might have a differential pressure rather than a differential temperature problem should check your oil filters if it is a temperature Delta then check your cooler have it cleaned I'm not an engineer but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express

Sandy M. Sales Manager at C.C. Jensen Ltd.

Jimmy, I think a night at the Holiday Inn Express more than qualifies you to comment on the situation!! LOL

Brett L. E&I Maintenance Coordinator at RocOil Cliff Head Offshore OIL Project WA

If you have a high header temp. Check the thermostatic control valve for excessive recycling due to a sticky power pill. This is a common problem with Mars engines

John C. Area Sales Manager at Emerson

I'm not an expert, but generally if you have a high outlet temp and your instruments are OK and your inlet temp. is OK - you must have "something" in your system adding calories to the oil! Faulty cooler? Bearing running hot? Damaged gear wheels or....? Try using "normal" fault finding technique ;-)

Byron S. Accounts manager at Solar Turbines Retired

Kevin Koloff gave the correct answer, he is as I, an X solar FSR. All other responses are simply filling space. Time to move on!




Dear sir, It is not solar supplied control set it have been upgraded lastly,yes it is increaser gear box there is an RTD inserted in gear box drain .what should i do.


As I stated those temp values are normal. I'd suggest you contact the person that wrote the control logic, and ask them what to do.Solar logic is simple as stated if the rtd temp reach 225 deg F, alarm, 250 deg F shutdown. Oil in is already at 150+. I don't at all understand this logic.


Could you please give me any document to prove what we said about temperature and solar logic set. Any document if it is possible. I will appreciate.


I am retired. I might have a backup copy of a compressor plc program. You can contact Solar with what you have.


Thanks for your cooperation, just last questions please, what this signal means High gearbox drain diff temp.


I would recommend you request an engineering spec from Solar on this. That information is open to you. Do you have any current service bulletins? This might be covered in that. Solar won't disclose technical letters to non employees, but the ERL (engineering release letter) you should be able to obtain. If you cannot get what you need you can contact me at [email protected]


For whatever reason, the control logic is looking at header temp, and comparing it to drain temp, subtracting it (differencial), and I assume on what you posted it is compaing the diffreential temp to 45 degrees, if greater than or (again I assume) equal to 45 shutdown. Is there no alarm?


I thing the header temperature should be the same. I also never seen something like this, but i think that it is good solution to implement such a logic (of course if it is tunned well).




I am going to drop of this thread as again I have said these temps are normal. The drain temp reflects the work being done by the gearbox. The compressors, and again I assume at least a two body low stage/high stage has bearing drain temp rtds. Those are in for protection of the babbit balanance piston seals. The GP/engine thrust bearing temps are monitored for excessive seal clearance since Solar utilizes combustion air for sealing. Thats also the reason for hot section postlube, to cool the bearings after shutdown.

Jimmy S. Owner, Black Diamond Security Solutions

Sounds like you might have a differential pressure rather than a differential temperature problem should check your oil filters if it is a temperature Delta then check your cooler have it cleaned I'm not an engineer but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express

Sandy M. Sales Manager at C.C. Jensen Ltd.

Jimmy, I think a night at the Holiday Inn Express more than qualifies you to comment on the situation!! LOL

Brett L. E&I Maintenance Coordinator at RocOil Cliff Head Offshore OIL Project WA

If you have a high header temp. Check the thermostatic control valve for excessive recycling due to a sticky power pill. This is a common problem with Mars engines

John C. Area Sales Manager at Emerson

I'm not an expert, but generally if you have a high outlet temp and your instruments are OK and your inlet temp. is OK - you must have "something" in your system adding calories to the oil! Faulty cooler? Bearing running hot? Damaged gear wheels or....? Try using "normal" fault finding technique ;-)

Byron S. Accounts manager at Solar Turbines Retired

Kevin Koloff gave the correct answer, he is as I, an X solar FSR. All other responses are simply filling space. Time to move on!

Fidel L. Jefe de Mantenimiento Pecuario en Productos Alimentarios Sofia S.A.

Hi, would be good to check the status of the thermostatic valve. located near the oil filter. similar failure had a centaur 50. Also analyze historical trends to see temperatures in the drains. whether they were increasing or was somewhat abrupt.

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