green engineering pc general meeting (with notes) june 16, 2015 marty bradley program committee...
TRANSCRIPT
Green Engineering PC General Meeting (with notes)
June 16, 2015
Marty BradleyProgram Committee [email protected]
What is Green Engineering?
Biofuels RenewableEnergy
Energy ConversionEfficiency
Airframe EfficiencyAIAA Conferences & Literature
RecyclingOperations
Climate Monitoring
GE.comBoeing.com
Enviro.aero
Enviro.aero
Wikipedia.org
GEPC Charter
The purpose of the Green Engineering Program Committee
(GEPC) is to promote a holistic, systems approach to improved
energy efficiency, sustainability, renewable energy and ‘cradle-to-
cradle’ design. GEPC serves as the AIAA focal point for all “green”
aerospace-related programs and technologies, and works
synergistically with the appropriate technical committees to assure
that the AIAA membership is adequately informed about all aspects
of this critical aerospace activity.
GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
4
GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
5
Attendance – GEPC General Meeting June 16, 2015
1. Marty Bradley2. Charles Beard3. Ben Schiltgen4. Andy Gibson5. Katie Bradley6. Tayo Ladeinde7. Gary Dale8. Jerry Welch9. Cheryl Bowman10. Tarek Abdel-Salam11. Valerie Lyons12. Brien Seeley13. Jeremy Straub14. Jason Slagle15. Hernando Jimenez
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Dani Soban – record information
Green Engineering Program Committee
Publication / Communications
Tayo Ladeinde
Awards Essam Khalil
EducationTarek Abdel-Salam
MembershipDanielle Soban
Service Subcommittee RepresentativesService Subcommittee Representatives
Technical Subcommittee RepresentativesTechnical Subcommittee Representatives
ChairMarty Bradley
Vice Chair (Future Chair)Ruben Del Rosario
Past ChairJason Slagle
ConferencesFranz-Josef Kahlen
Liaison xxx
Green Aviation - xxxLarry Leavitt – ERA
Marty Bradley et al.– Electric Aircraft
Green Energy - xxxNicole Mendoza – Tethered Wind Turbines
Jeremy Straub – Space Solar PowerGeorge Miley/Michael Houts - Advanced Nuclear
Noel Bahktian – Energy HarvestingMarty Bradley – Geo-Engineering
Standardsxxx
Public Policy Katherine Bradley
June 8, 2015
GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
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GEPC Meetings – Summer 2015
GEPC General Meeting - Telecon/Webex – June 16th at 8 AM PDT
Aviation 2015 – Dallas June 22-25th– GEPC Meeting – Wednesday June 24th 5:30-6:30 PM – Malta Room– Aircraft Electric Propulsion Path Forward - Coordination Meeting - Monday 12-
2 PM - Cooper Room
P&E 2015 – Orlando July 27-29th
– GEPC Leadership & ConferenceTeam Meeting» Monday, 27 July 2015 5:00-7:00 pm
– GEPC Meeting» Tuesday, 28 July 2015 5:00-7:30 pm
Space 2015 - – Space Based Solar Power Session (Jeremy Straub)
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DEP/ODM Near-Term Activities(DEP=Distributed Electric Propulsion ODM=On-Demand Mobility)
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DEP VTOL sUAS, AUVSI May 4-8LEAPTech Media Day, AFRC May 12AIAA Aviation Jun 22-26 Transformational Flight SessionsOn-Demand Mobility Road Mapping Forums, EAA Oshkosh July 21-22AIAA Electric Propulsion P&E Forum 360 July 27NASA UTM UAS Convention, Ames July 28-30Transformative Vertical Flight Concepts Workshop, Ames Aug 3-4Blue Sky Quiet VSTOL Workshop, Langley Aug 26-27 HyperCommuter Study Review, Langley Sept 29-30NASA-FAA ODM Roadmapping Workshop, Kansas City Oct 21-22DEP Scaling Study Review, Langley Dec 8Thin-Haul Technology/Concept Development Review, SciTech Jan 6, 2016
On-Demand Mobility Missions
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ODM Missions fit across vehicle categories that vary in size, performance features, and how they interact with society.
sUAS Package Delivery: <55 lb, 10 lb payload, Vertical Takeoff and Landing/Hover capable, Imperceptible noise at 250 ft, robust/redundant control with inability to hurt ground observers, 50 mile range, 50 mph speed, $.025/mile operating cost with autonomous operation.
Hyper-Commuter PAVs: <1000 lbs, 1+1 pax payload, Heli-pad field length capable, Imperceptible noise at 500 ft, robust/redundant control with safety equivalent to GA aircraft, 200 mile range, 150 mph speed, $.75/mile operating cost with VFR ease of use autonomy.
Zip-GA Aircraft: <4000 lbs, 4 pax payload, <2000 ft field length capable, Imperceptible noise at 1000 ft, robust/redundant control with safety equivalent to automobiles, 200 to 400 mile range, 200 mph speed, $1.50/mile operating cost with IFR ease of use autonomy.
Thin Haul Commuters: <10,000 lbs, 9 pax payload, <2000 ft field length capable, Imperceptible noise at 2000 ft, robust/redundant control with safety equivalent to automobiles, 200 to 400 mile range, 250 mph speed, $3.00/mile operating cost with IFR ease of use autonomy.
sUAS Equivalency: Bicycle courier
HC-PAV Equivalency: Motorcycle
Zip-GA Equivalency: Automobile
Thin Haul Equivalency: Shuttle Van
Each mission class builds upon the others to increase ODM market breadth and impact.
Aircraft Electric Propulsion – Path Forward
• Opinions or discussion items from GEPC Members? Brien Seeley will send a chart and talking points Andy Gibson – highlighted challenge to show scale-
up to a regional size electric aircraft
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GEPC General Meeting – Conference Status
• Aviation 2015 (Andy Gibson) See separate slide
• P&E 2015 (Valerie Lyons) See separate slide
• Space 2015 Space Based Solar Power Session (Jeremy Straub)
• SciTech 2016 (Chris Hughes) Call for Papers - Abstracts due June 2, 2015 ERA Special Session (Larry Leavitt) Geoengineering F360 Session (Marty) – waiting to hear from F360 Chair “Supercritical Transformational Energy Production” – Roger Herdy looking to submit
or find a home for his paper “I just have the session slots reserved. Right now, I only have ERA and the papers
that came in through the GE call. I have not heard from Transformational Flight yet, and you are still thinking about one for AATT. I have one oral presentation on Hybrid Electric from Armstrong proposed for GE. I don’t have any other information yet.” – Chris 13
GEPC General Meeting – Conference Status
• Aviation 2016 (TBD )
• P&E 2016 (Tarek Abdel-Salam)
• SciTech 2017 (TBD)
• Other topics (conference sessions not scheduled yet)
1. Airborne Wind Turbines (Nicole Mendoza) – possible presentation to GEPC at SciTech 2016
2. Energy Harvesting (Noel Bahktian) – possible presentation to GEPC at SciTech 2016
3. Advanced Nuclear (George Miley/Michael Houts) – presentation on state of the art at P&E 2015
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Aviation 2015 Report – Andy Gibson
Number of papers (submitted / accepted) 4 Technical Papers submitted, 2 accepted. 6 Oral Presentations Invited, 6 accepted and sessioned.Number of sessions (regular and invited) One; GEPC-01 Overview of NASA Advanced Air Vehicles Program. Two accepted Papers passed off to other sessions. "Selected Array of Technology and Systems Options for Ecologically Responsible Aviation“ moved to ATIO-07 Systems Engineering and Analysis. "Landscape Analysis Framework for Low Carbon Energy" moved to ATIO-06 Fleet and Route Planning.Duration and schedule of sessions GEPC-01, Thursday June 25th, 2 - 5pm.Highlights / topical areas of your sessions Decided upon single technical session; focus to introduce the projects in the Advanced Air Vehicles Program.Any other pertinent information Not at this time; it seems that SciTech might be GEPC's focus, but P&E received good returns as well, which
could be because it's P&E, or because Valerie wanted to re-write the CfP. We decided not to re-write the CfP for AVIATION specifically to see how it would compare to SciTech, and that question was answered.
Forum 360 Panel Session – Challenges of Green Aviation – Wednesday 2:00-4:30 pmGEPC Meeting – Wednesday June 24th 5:30-6:30 PM – Malta Room
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Valerie Lyons P&E 2015 Status
Number of papers (submitted / accepted) = 6 · Number of sessions = 1 (regular paper session)· Duration and schedule of sessions = 6x30 min = 3 hrs -· Highlights / topical areas of your sessions = wide variety of
"green" engineering topics - from liquid propellants to aeronautics.
Plenary Program“Technology Development and Trends in Propulsion and Energy”
Forum 360“Aircraft Electric Propulsion”“Role of Bio-fuels in Future Aviation” Still looking for speakers!
Continuing Education“The Application of Green Propulsion for Future Space”
GEPC Leadership/Conference/General Meetings 16
Must Read--Important hotel information for P&E
Good morning,We look forward to your participation in the Propulsion and Energy Forum next month.
We were recently informed that the hotel is sold out, other than the AIAA block, so we encourage you to make your reservations this week or as soon as possible to ensure you have a place to stay. We expect the AIAA hotel block to sell out shortly. Please let me know if you have any questions.
Best,Pamela BertelsonProject Coordinator, Protocol ActivitiesAmerican Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics www.aiaa.org 1801 Alexander Bell Drive, Suite 500, Reston, VA [email protected] 703.264.7542 (direct) 703.264.7551 (fax)
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GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter, Newsletter coming out for Aviation
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
18
Green Engineering Program Committee
Publication / Communications
Tayo Ladeinde
Awards Essam Khalil
EducationTarek Abdel-Salam
MembershipDanielle Soban
Service Subcommittee RepresentativesService Subcommittee Representatives
Technical Subcommittee RepresentativesTechnical Subcommittee Representatives
ChairMarty Bradley
Vice Chair (Future Chair)Ruben Del Rosario
Past ChairJason Slagle
ConferencesFranz-Josef Kahlen
Liaison xxx
Green Aviation - xxxLarry Leavitt – ERA
Marty Bradley et al.– Electric Aircraft
Green Energy - xxxNicole Mendoza – Tethered Wind Turbines
Jeremy Straub – Space Solar PowerGeorge Miley/Michael Houts - Advanced Nuclear
Noel Bahktian – Energy HarvestingMarty Bradley – Geo-Engineering
Standardsxxx
Public Policy Katherine Bradley
June 8, 2015
What is a Policy Position Paper?
• A policy position paper is the form in which a policy issue is presented to Congress.
• It is a brief, 1-page paper summarizing a key issue and what Congress should do to fix the problem.
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Existing Environment Position Statements
• February 2009Aviation’s Role in Minimizing Environmental Impacts
• January 2010Essential Capabilities for Operational Climate Change Monitoring
• May 2010 Energy and the “Greening” of Aviation
• May 2010 Understanding, Mitigating, and Adapting to Climate Change
• February 2011A National Strategy is Required to Address Obstacles to Sustainable Alternative Aviation Fuels
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How to get a Policy Position Paper Developed
• AIAA Public Policy is picking a few (3-5) broad, key policy issues to promote to Congress.
• The other issues will be referred to local Public Policy representatives who will try to fix the issues on the local level.
• The goal: Identify green engineering policy issues both large-scale and local to promote to AIAA Public Policy.
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Potential Green Engineering Related Policy Issues
1. EPA and airplane emissions2. Funding cuts for AFRL fuels lab that was
providing significant help for biofuel certification activities
3. Your ideas4. Xxx
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EPA Takes Step Toward Regulating Airplane Emissions
The New York Times (6/11, Mouawad, Davenport, Subscription Publication) reports that in “the latest” of President Obama’s “major initiatives to combat global warming,” the EPA said yesterday that “it would take the first step toward regulating greenhouse gas emissions from airplanes.” The Washington Post (6/11, Mooney) indicates, however, that “rather than moving ahead on its own, the agency plans to continue to work on with the United Nations’ International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Christopher Grundler, who heads the EPA’s Office of Transportation and Air Quality, “defended the international approach,” observing that “an international standard would cover far more aircraft than simply a domestic standard, and would cover far more greenhouse gas reduction.”
The Huffington Post (6/10, Sheppard) reports that the EPA “did not announce actual regulations at this point,” but “rather...its intent to reach an endangerment finding, which would trigger regulations under the Clean Air Act.” On its website, US News & World Report (6/11, Neuhauser) notes that the EPA, under the current administration, “made a similar finding in 2009 that led to new emissions standards for motor vehicles, and has pushed to harness the Clean Air Act to reduce carbon emissions from power plants.” US News added that “such moves have been vigorously opposed and portrayed as federal overreach by industry and conservative lawmakers, but have been upheld in court.”
The AP (6/10, Lowy) notes that the ICAO “has been working for five years on developing global aircraft emissions standards for the first time. Final agreement on those standards is expected in February of next year.” However, “a final US decision on adoption of international standards is likely to be left to the next presidential administration,” as “EPA officials said the earliest the agency is likely to propose adoption of ICAO standards would be in 2017.”
Bloomberg News (6/11, Snyder) says that “environmental groups welcomed the EPA action they have sought since 2007, though some cautioned about the tie to the ICAO.” Vera Pardee, “a senior attorney at the Center for Biological Diversity,” said yesterday, “It’s an important first step, but too little too late. ... EPA is punting responsibility.” In fact, “Pardee said the ICAO may delay significant reductions until 2030 or later.”
Reuters (6/10, Volcovici) reports that Paul Steele, senior vice president at the International Air Transport Association, said, “If you’re a big airline and you’re flying to 100 countries a day, then complying with all those different regimes is an administrative nightmare.”
The Wall Street Journal (6/10, Ostrower, Harder, Subscription Publication) reports that Nancy Young, vice president for Environmental Affairs at Airlines for America, a trade association representing U.S. airlines and air cargo carriers, similarly said, “Aviation is a global industry, making it critical that aircraft emission standards continue to be agreed upon at the international level.”
24A good discussion topic for Aviation and P&E GEPC Meetings
https://twitter.com/aiaaGEPC
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Green Engineering Program Committee
Publication / Communications
Tayo Ladeinde
Awards Essam Khalil
EducationTarek Abdel-Salam
MembershipDanielle Soban
Service Subcommittee RepresentativesService Subcommittee Representatives
Technical Subcommittee RepresentativesTechnical Subcommittee Representatives
ChairMarty Bradley
Vice Chair (Future Chair)Ruben Del Rosario
Past ChairJason Slagle
ConferencesFranz-Josef Kahlen
Liaison xxx
Green Aviation - xxxLarry Leavitt – ERA
Marty Bradley et al.– Electric Aircraft
Green Energy - xxxNicole Mendoza – Tethered Wind Turbines
Jeremy Straub – Space Solar PowerGeorge Miley/Michael Houts - Advanced Nuclear
Noel Bahktian – Energy HarvestingMarty Bradley – Geo-Engineering
Standardsxxx
Public Policy Katherine Bradley
June 8, 2015
GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
27
Actions:
63. Schedule follow-on IMECHE workshop – Ruben Del Rosario66. Advanced Nuclear presentation for GEPC Meeting at P&E 2015 – Michael Houts67. Energy Harvesting and/or Energy Water Nexus presentation for SciTech 2016 – Noel
Bahktian68. Airborne Wind Turbine presentation for SciTech 2016 – Nicole Mendoza69. Find new Subcommittee Lead for Liaison - Marty & Leadership Team70. Valerie needs speakers for F360 panel “Role of Bio-fuels in Future Aviation” at
P&E . Gary Dale to check on getting an LNG speaker (maybe change session name to “Role of Alternative Fuels in Future Aviation”). Marty to check with Boeing contacts.
71. Send slide and talking points for discussion on Aircraft Electric Propulsion – Brien Seeley. Marty to use in AEP coordination meeting at Aviation on June 22nd.
72. Send sample of Aircraft Design Newsletter to Marty & Tayo – Hernando Jimenez73. Xxx74. Yyy75. zzz
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Green = complete
Actions:
52. Investigate Speaker / Session on Geo-Engineering - Marty53. Investigate Speaker / Session on Energy Harvesting – Noel Bakhtian
54. Use other AIAA Facebook groups and pages to publicize GEPC Page – Marty
55. Find leader for Standards. - Marty & Leadership team56. Have them explain process to do a standard for AIAA. Have them identify other
current non-AIAA standards related to green aviation of energy – Standards Leader
35. Help find new Green Energy leader – John Blanton37. Outreach to student chapter – Tayo to get email POC’s for student chapters from
Betty Guille
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Actions:
21. Standing up a new Major Award Nominations Committee – Contact Wayne Hurwitz [action GEPC Awards – Essam Khalil]
25. GEPC Awards – Figure out possible award nominations for Green Engineering related people or projects (RCEE, ERA, SUGAR, MIT Double Bubble D8, ???) – Essam Khalil
26. Identify SciTech16, Aviation 16, and P&E 16 GEPC Technical Chairs – Ruben Del Rosario – Franz-Josef
27. Develop process for Green Engineering Best Presentation Award – Essam and Conference Subcommittee
28. Publish 1st Newsletter – Tayo Ladeinde (Marty to send intro paragraph)29. Figure out status of Engine Design Competition & GEPC Role – Ian Halliwell, Jeff
Hamstra, Tarek Abdel-Salam
30. Send out email to enable/energize liaison activities – TBD31. Find new lead for Green Aviation – Marty & Leadership Team
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GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
31
GEPC General Meeting – June 2015
• Introduction & Introductions – Org Chart• Conference Status• Subcommittee Leads – Around the room
Public Policy Initiative Communications – Twitter
• Action Items• Open discussion• More details on future AIAA Conference Forums (optional if
time is available)
32
Update on Forums
Briefing to Technical Activities Committee6 May 2015
Dates & Venues
• SciTech 4-8 January 2016, Manchester Grand Hyatt, San Diego,
CA 9-13 January 2017, Gaylord Texan, Grapevine, TX 8-12 January 2018, Gaylord Palms, Orlando, FL
• DEFENSE 8-10 March 2016, Applied Physics Lab/Johns Hopkins
University, Laurel, MD– Date available spring 2016 (not under contract)
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Dates & Venues (continued)
• AVIATION 13-17 June 2016, Washington Hilton, Washington, DC 5-9 June 2017, Sheraton Downtown Denver, Denver,
CO• Propulsion & Energy
25-27 July 2016, Salt Palace Convention Center, Salt Lake City, Utah
10-12 July 2017, Hyatt Regency, Atlanta, Georgia
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Dates & Venues (continued)
• SPACE 12-15 September 2016, Long Beach Convention
Center, Long Beach, California Out year options being explored based on suggested
cities and RFP responses:– Orlando, 12-16 September 2017– New Orleans, 2018 dates TBD (focused on early to mid
September)
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Dates & Venues (continued)
• Staff exploring multi-year contract with Hyatt SPACE 2017 (Orlando) SPACE 2018 (New Orleans) SciTech 2019 (7-11 January, San Diego) SciTech 2020 (dates TDB, Orlando)
• Deal would include concessions leading to cost savings for all four forums
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Dates & Venues (continued)
• AVIATION and P&E 2018 options being explored based on cities suggested and RFP responses AVIATION 2018
– Chicago: 11-15 June or 18-22 June– Atlanta: 25-29 June or 18-23 June (AV14 in Atlanta)– Honolulu: 25-29 June
P&E 2018– Cincinnati: 23-25 July– New Orleans: 9-11 July (incomplete bid; staff requesting more
information)– Also looked at Indianapolis but not available
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Organizers: SciTech 2016
• Executive Steering Committee Robie Samanta Roy, Lockheed Martin Corporation Richard Christiansen, Sierra Lobo, Inc. John Tracy, The Boeing Company George Lesieutre, The Pennsylvania State University General Chair: Mason Peck, Cornell University
• Forum 360 Chair: Ann Zulkosky, Lockheed Martin Corporation• Forum Technical Chairs:
Brad Burchett (ASG), Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Jeanette Domber (ADSG), Ball Aerospace Misty Davies (ISG), NASA Ames
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Organizers: AVIATION 2016
• Executive Steering Committee Tom Edwards, NASA Ames Research Center Todd Zarfos, The Boeing Company Michael Bragg, University of Washington General Chair: Robert Gregg, The Boeing Company
• Forum 360 Chair: Samantha Magill, Honda Aircraft Company• Forum Technical Chairs:
Cees Bil (AASG), RMIT University LaTunia Melton (ASG), NASA Langley Research Center
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Organizers: P&E 2016
• Executive Steering Committee Michael Heil, Ohio Aerospace Institute Robert Hwang, Sandia National Laboratory Alton Romig, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Julie Van Kleeck, Aerojet Rocketdyne General Chair: Daniel Dumbacher, Purdue University
• Forum 360 Chair: John Horack, Teledyne Brown Engineering
• Forum Technical Chair: Justin Locke, United Technologies
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Organizers: SPACE 2016
• Staff identified candidates based on approach to SPACE 2015 and developed proposed list Young professionals serving as primary organizers Some suggested candidates are carryovers from 2015,
some are new• Will need a Forum Technical Chair to be identified
soon
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Organizers: SPACE 2016 (proposed)
• General Chair Ariane Cornell, Business Development & Strategy, Blue Origin
• Forum 360 Co-chairs Aaron Parness, NASA JPL [Carryover] Brad Steinfeldt, Georgia Tech
• Other Members Kate Stambaugh, JHU/APL [Carryover] Justin Kugler, Center for the Advancement of Science in Space [Carryover] Tim Hinerman, Blue Origin A.C. Charani, Virgin Galactic Kristen Bloshock, Lockheed Martin
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Organizers: General
• Staff compiled suggested candidates for General and Forum 360 Chairs for SciTech, AVIATION, and P&E 2017 and developed short list
• Targeting to confirm candidates by mid- to late- June
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Organizers: SciTech 2017 Short List
• General Chair Werner Dahm, Foundation Professor of Aerospace &
Mechanical Engineering, Arizona State University Juan Alonso, Associate Professor, Department of
Aeronautics and Astronautics, Stanford University • Forum 360 Chair
Robbie Robertson, Air Force Research Laboratory
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Organizers: AVIATION 2017 Short List
• General Chair Fay Collier, Project Manager of the Environmentally
Responsible Aviation Project, Aeronautics Research Mission Directorate
Pres Henne, Gulfstream (Retired)• Forum 360 Chair
Ed Waggoner, Program Director, Integrated Aviation Systems, NASA ARMD
Ella Atkins, Associate Professor, Aerospace Engineering, University of Michigan
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Organizers: P&E 2017 Short List
• General Chair Meyer “Mike” Benzakein, Professor, Mechanical &
Aerospace Engineering, Ohio State University (Retired GE)
Lourdes Maurice, Executive Director for Environment and Energy, FAA
• Forum 360 Chair Ruben Del Rosario, Manager of the Fixed Wing
Project, Fundamental Aeronautics Program, NASA John Olson, Vice President, Sierra Nevada
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Organizers: Expanding the Pool
• Process for identifying chair candidates solicits feedback from stakeholder groups Board of Directors, Corporate Member Committee
• Not receiving enough suggestions to build a large pool of candidates
• Suggestions we receive are usually limited to AIAA members, volunteers from TAC structure Need to broaden the net to provide new ideas, fresh approaches Individuals outside of our community help us expand programmatically
and increase relevance Opportunity to engage potential individuals who should be AIAA
members but are not48