1

NUNC ET UNDIQUE

aq da yvelgan

NUNC ET UNDIQUE

2

sarCevi:

siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva

demonebis Sesaxeb................................................... 3

cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi ...20

meSvide .........................................................................32

aq da dRes .................................................................49

dialogi ......................................................................67

3

siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva

demonebis Sesaxeb

heklberi: amas winaT isev mecnierebaze iyo kamaTi

beki: raRac daweres, xo?

heklberi: ho, TiTqos viRacas unda rom Cvens StatSi

mecniereba daRupos da gaanadguros

beki: raRaca albaT unda ganadgurdes raRaca ara..

heklberi: a?

beki: TiTqmis. me politikosebis mxridan ar

vgulisxmob

heklberi: aba?

beki: TavisiT.

heklberi: eg ra martivi pasuxia

beki: rTuli ginda?

heklberi: Zalianac ara, magram ai im TavisTvis, exla

zemodan rom giyurebs, xom unda iyos gasagebi

beki: mag Tavis motana kargi sababia mecnierebaze

saubris dasawyebad

heklberi: saubris ki ara, dialogis

beki: rogorc aris – TviTon mixvdi Tu avtorma gaTqmevina?

heklberi: daiwye exla – sad iyavi manam, sanam avtori

gadawyvetda Sens daweras

beki: ara, – sad iyo avtori manam, sanam es azri

gauCndeboda? anda, kidev ukeTesi, rogori iyo avtori manam,

sanam es azri gauCndeboda – am samyaroSi, me da Sen rom

varT, es sulis gamosawrTobi kiTxvaa, iq, sadac avtori

cxovrobs – ara, sruliad legitimuri da azriani, samyaros

rom asaxavs.

heklberi: mTlad ar aris is rac unda iyos, magram ara

uSavs.. ratom aris ai es Tavi kargi mecnierebaze dialogis

dasawyebad?

beki: imdenad kargia, rom avtors SeeZlo sulac ar

eTqmevinebina is ori suleluri fraza Cvens StatSi

mecnierebis ganadgurebis Sesaxeb. kargia imitom, rom imas,

rasac dRes mecnierebas uwodeben, Zalian gansxvavdeba

imisagan, rac mecniereba hgoniaT

heklberi: anu?

beki: anu, ra hgoniaT mecniereba Tu ras uwodeben

mecnierebas?

4

heklberi: nu maimunob, orive, an jer pirveli

beki: fiqroben, rom mecniereba, aris is, rac

Seimecnebs samyaros, iZleva ufro komfortuli

cxovrebis saSualebas, igonebs iaraRebs, maT Soris

sasikvdilos, anadgurebs garemos, igonebs garemos

SenarCunebis xerxebs, inarCunebs mas, axangZlivebs

adaminis sicocxles, amcirebs adaminis sicocxles,

uzrunvelyofs sistemebis mdgradobas, da ase Semdeg.

heklberi: es CamonaTvali Cinuri enciklopediis

ganmartebas hgavs

beki: romels?

heklberi: ai amas, avtors rom mohyavs Tavis wignSi

- cxovelebi iyofian Semdegnairad: a) imperatoris

sakuTreba; b) balzamirebulebi; g) moSinaurebulebi;

d) ZuZuTa goWebi; e) sirenebi; v) zRaprulebi; z)

upatrono ZaRlebi; T) am klasifikaciaSi Sesulebi;

i) yvelas rom Tavs esxmian, TiTqos gagiJebuliyvnen;

k) usasrulod bevrni; l) aqlemis bewvisagan

damzadebuli Zalian wvrili funjiT daxatulebi; m)

sxvebi; n) es esaa larnaki rom gatexes; o) TiTqos Sors

rom dafrinaven.

beki: sulac ar hgavs

heklberi: hgavs – ramdenime saukunis Semdeg es

gansazRvrebac msgavsi iqneba – anu, Cven ganvmarteT, ra

hqvia imas, rasac akeTebeb isini, vinc mecnierebis saxeliT

moqmedeben da vinc mecnierebi arian..

beki: iseve, rogorc Cinur ganmartebaSi – cxovelebi arian

isini, visac hqviaT cxovelebi

heklberi: es moxerxebuli ganmartebaa da arc ise

sasacilo – anu, usasruloa, SeiZleba usasrulod

gagrZeldes da Sesabamisad, potenciurad SeuZlia marTlac

yvela cxoveli moicvas..

beki: anu, egreTwodebuli aRweriTi ganmartebaa, ar xsnis,

aramed CamoTvlis..

heklberi: mainc ratom gansxvavdeba is rac hgoniaT

mecniereba imisagan, rac mecniereba aris?

beki: principSi, rodesac raRacaze fiqrs iwyeb, is raRaca

ukve gansxvavdeba imisagan rac is manamde iyo, sanam fiqrs

daiwyebdi

5

heklberi: es yvela SemTxvevaSi asea?

beki: me mgoni ki. rogorc ki raRac xdeba

TavisTavad cxadi – magaliTad, mecniereba, samyaros

mowyoba, saxli, Seni megobari - es

TavisTavadgasageboba misi buneba xdeba. anu, am

SemTxvevaSi sagani, myofi, adamiani, aris yvelaze

ufro TavisTavadgasagebi..

heklberi: auf, es ra filosofiur gaugebrobaSi

magdeb..

beki: ara, ubralod gixsni, ratom xdeba yvelaferi

sxva, rodesac masze fiqrs iwyeb

heklberi: Sen ginda Tqva, rom TavisTavadgasageboba

sagnis bunebaa da ara Cveni damokidebuleba,

romelic Cveni survilis/ganwyobis mixedviT

icvleba?

beki: ho, me geubnebi, rom Cven TavisTavadgasagebTa

samyaroSi vcxovrobT, da nebismieri cvlilebis

mizani aris TavisTavadgasagebobis Secvla

heklberi: ise, rom dafiqrde, SeiZleba marTlac ase

iyos _ sagnebi da sityvebi Cvens winaSe raRac

idumalebiT ki ar arian warmodgenilebi, da Cven – Cveni

sizarmacis gamo ver vxedavT maT arss – aramed isini arian

rogorc TavisTavadgasagebni – da mxolod Cveni survilis

mixedviT xdebian isini Rrmebi da gansxvavebulni –

sxvadasxva fenebis da siRrmeebis Semcvelebi

beki: da Semdeg icvlebian kidec – anu, Cven rom gvgonia,

rom vicode rame, niSnavs vicode misi warmoSoba, amis

sapirispiroa da niRbavs da faravs.

heklberi: niRbavs da faravs, Semodis sami filosofosi..

beki: maimunob...

heklberi: kargi, davseriozuldebi – platonis da

sokrates damkidebulebac – sinaTlisken da gasagebobisaken

swrafva – amis SeniRbva/arcodnaa erTis mxriv, xolo meore

mxriv – amis damalva

beki: risi damalva?

heklberi: rom saganze azrovneba mis Secvlas iwvevs da is

ukve aRar aris TavisTavadgasagebi bunebis, amitom im

momentSi amovardnilia samyarodan

beki: magram mere xom isev xdeba am axali sagnis

TavisTavadgasagebad qceva da misi TavisTavadgasagebi

6

samyaros nawilad gaxdoma _ Tuki es azrovneba

moaxerxebs daamtkicos, rom aseTi axali sagani

ufro gamosadegia da praqtikuli, vidre Zveli?

heklberi: ki, rogor ara. am SemTxvevaSi gza

TavisTavadgasagebobisaken – sakmaod rTulia da

gaaCnia ra sagnebs da sityvebs exeba saqme.

beki: saganSi TavisTavad araviTari siRrme da

dafaruli azrebi ar unda arsebobdnen –

potenciurad - Tuki es sityva varga am azris

gadmosacemad – iq “mTeli samyaroa”, Tumca am

msjelobebis mere es “mTeli samyaroc” kargavs

azrs..

heklberi: igive exeba adamianebsac – sagnebis mimarT

SeiZleba amas SevurigdeT, magram sxva Cvennairis

mimarT? iqac igive viTarebasTan gvavs saqme?

beki: me mgoni ki – ubralod, hm, ubralod,

adamianebis Soris TavisTavadgasagebobis rTuli

struqtura muSaobs: komunikacia aris raRac

konkretuli konstruqciis SeTavazeba meoresaTvis

mis Sesaxeb, da Tu es konstruqti misaRebia, maSin

komunikacia Semdgaria. arseboben miRebuli da dadgenili

konsruqtebi da Cven enobrivi TamaSebis da Jestebis eniT

vaxdenT am konstruqtebis gadarCeva/SeTavazebas.

heklberi: es xom Zalian martivi sqemaa, erTi miTxari, ra

konstruqts sTavazob roca seqsi ginda konkretul

pirovnebasTan?

beki: arsebobs ufro rTuli modelebi, magaliTad

siyvarulis dros, rodesdac SeTavazeba yoveldRiur

urTierTobasTan SedarebiT rTuli bunebisaa da aseTive

rTul, arayoveldRiur aqtiur Tanxmobas moiTxovs

meorisagan, da faqtiurad, niSnavs Seni momavali

partinioris bunebis, hi, hi, arsis, Secvlas

heklberi: aba ra, iyo sxvisi, gaxda Seni seqsualuri

partniori

beki: SeiZleba egrec avxsnaT.. anu, Sen amiT meore

adamianis, hi, hi, bunebaSi seriozuli koreqtivi Segaqvs

heklberi: ho, rac ar xdeba bordelSi – iq seqsi aranairi

siaxle ar aris arc SenTvis da arc Seni partniorisaTvis

beki: ho, iq seqsi sagnebis da sityvebis

TavisTavadgasagebobaSi moZraobs

7

heklberi: iq Secvlis SeTavazeba iqneboda bordelis

macxovrebels ise daewyo qceva, TiTqos bunebis

Secvlas Tavazobde..

beki: albaT, magram ara mgonia aseTi TanamSromeli

bordels aetana

heklberi: aseTive bunebis unda iyos

qarizmatulobac, albaT..

beki: me mgoni ki.. qarizmatuloba am SemTxvevaSi

SeTavazebuli konstruqciaa, droSi gawelili:

mmarTvelobis, liderobis mosurne sakuTar mizans/

obieqts sTavazobs bunebis Secvlas, misi

TavisTavadgasagebobis gadasinjvas

heklberi: misi TavisTavadgasageboba ra aris?

beki: gaaCnia ra unda qarizmatulobis SemTavazebels

– erTi jgufis, erTi Tvisebis da xasiaTis

admianebis, Tu, qveynis xalxis lideroba..

heklberi: aaa, is eubneba rom unda gaxdes maTi

lideri da raRac drois ganmavlobaSi sxvadasva

meTodebiT aCvenebs rogori mamaci, mzrunveli,

principuli da ase Semdeg aris...

beki: da mere ucbad viRaceebi aRmoaCenen, rom is

qarizamatuli tipi gaxda, farTo sazogadoeba . . .

heklberi: sxvadasxva sifarTovis sxvadasxva SemTxvevaSi

beki: macale, sazogadoeba Tanaxmaa – zogi sixaruliT, zogi

orWofobiT, dahyves mis nebas

heklberi: Zalian moxerxebulad waramodgine qarizmatuloba

rogorc seqsualuri aqtis winapiroba

beki: SeiZleba, magram sinamdvileSi . . .

heklberi: sinamdvileSi?

beki: ukacravad, Tundac, es erTi procesis sxvadasxva

gamovlenaa – Sen azrovneb TavisTavadgasageb movlenaze,

Sedixar sasiyvarulo uriTierTobaSi, xdebi qarizmatuli

politikosi Tu ubralod komunikacias amyareb axal

jgufTan – Sen amiT arsebuli TavisTavadgasagebobis

revizias iTxov da aRwev, Tu warmatebuli xar

heklberi: magram xom unda arsebobdnen gauziarebeli

SeTavazebebi.. ..

beki: ki, da aseTia filosofia

heklberi: vai?

8

beki: ho, filosofiuri teqstebi, Tavisi sirTulis

gamo, da Cven Cvens droSi me mgoni mivadeqiT im

etaps, sadac filosofiuri teqstis erTaderTi

maxasiaTebeli sirTule xdeba

heklberi: albaT

beki: nu mawyvetineb. es teqstebi Tavisi sirTulis..

heklberi: an usargeblobis

beki: nu mawyvetineb, sirTulis gamo ar ziardeba,

anu, maTSi aRwerili TavisTavadgasagebebis

gaazreba/revizia rogorc wesi – rTuli gasagebia –

amitom, isini ganwirulebi arian

warumateblobisaTvis

heklberi: mecniereba?

beki: rogorc iqna davbrundiT saTaurTan

heklberi: karga or-sam-oTxgverdiani gadaxveva

gamogvivida..

beki: mecnierebas sxva iaraRi aqvs, riTac is

aiZulebs TavisTavadgasagebobis sakuTari

gadaxedvis/reviziis gaziarebas

heklberi: ra?

beki: Sedegi – macivari, televizori, raketa, Satli,

avtomati.. gavagrZelo? mecniereba axali TavisTavadgasagebi

sagnebiT avsebs Cvens samyaros, umateben mas sagnebs..

Sesabamisad, mecnierebas macivriT aqvs nayidi indulgencia

heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba ganwirulia

warmatebulobisaTvis sanam sagnebiT avsebs samyaros?

beki: ho, Tanac, aq ormxrivi procesia – erTis mxriv

adamiani sul ufro da ufro xdeba raRac teqnikuri

Cvevebis matarebeli – magaliTad, operaciuli sistemis

gamoyenebis Cvevis, xolo mecnierebis mier mowodebuli

TavisTavadgasagebi sagani swored imitom xdeba

TavisTavadgasagebi, rom am operaciul sistemaSi xdeba misi

SefuTva

heklberi: a?

beki: aba warmoidgine, macivris gamoyenebisaTvis rTuli

gamoTvlis gakeTeba rom giwevdes, avtomatis yoveli

srolisas tyviis traeqtoriis qaRaldze gamoTvla.. aravin

ar iyidida maT da ar gamoiyenebda

heklberi: yovel SemTxvevaSi Zalin cota – TviTon

mecnierebi albaT, da am sagnebis gamoyeneba/warmoeba rTuli

9

da Zviri iqneboda – da sul idgeboda sakiTxi

mecnierebis gamousadegrobis Sesaxeb..

beki: eg zustad aRwers filosofiis garemos –

filosofia aris macivris yoveli gamoyenebisaTvis

yinulis Seqmnis procesis Tavidan bolomde Catareba

da tyviis srolisaTvis yoveli tyviis traeqtoriis

gamoTvla sxvadasxva formulebiT

heklberi: maxvilgonieria, magram ara mgonia,

filosofosebi amaze dageTanxmon

beki: nu dameTanxmebian, nugeSad ramdenime gverdiT

ukan gadafurclon da aagon TaviTavadgasagebobis

filosofia, vCuqni..

heklberi: ra cinizmia, Tanac Tavxeduri

beki: ratom – arc araferi ikargeba bunebaSi

heklberi: da mecniereba?

beki: mecniereba warmatebuli filosofiaa,

romelmac miagno TavisTavadgasagebi sagnebis, an

ubralod, sagnebis Seqmnis gzas

heklberi: filosofiur qvas?

beki: ho, meti ra aris azrovnebis istoria, Tu ara

sagnebis Semqmnelis da gardamqnelis Zebna? igive SeiZleba

iTqvas literaturaze – literaturac amravlebs samyaros

sagnebiT/sityvebiT – wignebiT, failebiT, teqstebiT – isic

TavisTavadgasagebobis amocanis amoxsnaa

heklberi: ho da rac ver ixsneba da rac warumatebelia –

mecnierebaSi da literaturaSi – aris filosofia da sxva

misi msgavsni

beki: ase pirdapir?

heklberi: ho

beki: mokled, azrovnebis istoria ase gamogvivida –

heklberi: gamogvivida? me mxolod gismen

beki: geSinia? filosofia da sxva yvela mas mimsgavsebuli

aris reliqturi, memkvidreoba romelic daicala sityvebis

da sagnebis Seqmnis unaridan, da mainc SenarCunda albaT,

araswori warmodgenis gamo, rom raki literatura da

mecniereba iqidan gamovidnen, rasac mere filosofia ewoda,

iqneb kidev moxdes rames gamosvla iqidano..

heklberi: ise, xandaxan xdeba kidec..

beki: magaliTad?

10

heklberi: magaliTad – filosofiuri teqstebi

xandaxan gavlenas rom moaxdens literaturaze da

mecnierebaze..

beki: egec xdeba, marTali xar – mag imediT

arsebobs eg reliqti – rom iqneb rameze moaxdinos

gavlena. magram es ise iSviaTad xdeba, rom

filosofiis istoria asec SeiZleba warmovidginoT

– gavlenis moxdenidan gavlenis moxdenamde,

ramdenime saukuniani intervalebiT..

heklberi: magram gavlenebi xom arsebobs

beki: ise, kacma ar icis, es gavlenebi marTla

gavlenebia, Tu saerTo struqturebi

heklberi: ras gulisxmob?

beki: imas, rom me rom ar vicode, rom seriozuli

samecniero naSromis ukan televizori an

kondicioneri iWyiteba, ra Tqma unda, im teqsts

bodvad Sevracxavdi, romelic ar iqneboda ufro

zusti, vidre nebismieri cnobili Tu ucnobi

filosofiuri teqsti

heklberi: magram samecniero sazogadoeba..?

beki: merwmune, Cemo patara megobaro, samecniero da

filosofosTa sazogadoebebma rac ar unda amtkicon,

macivari yovelTvis gadamwyvet sityvas ambobs

heklberi: maSin gamodis, rom Tavisi struqturiT da

SinaarsiT es ori mimarTuleba – anu, mecniereba da

literatura erT mxares – xolo meore mxares filosofia

– principSi erTi da igivea..

beki: ho, Tu ar gaviTvaliswinebT raze azrovneben isini

da raze fiqroben, da ra sagnebi undaT rom gaakeTon –

mecnierebis da literaturis dasawyisi

TavisTavadgasagebebze fiqria, is aris amosavali da

amocanac aris sxva TavisTavadgasagebebis -sagnebis da

sityvebis gamravleba. filosofia ki TavisTavadgasagebis

gardaqmnas cdilobs,

heklberi: iman rom Tqva, seirnoba rom uyvarda – sagnebis

gamravlebiT samyaros ver Seimecnebo

beki: da ai swored es iyo wyalgamyofi ramac filosofia

sxva gziT waiyvana

heklberi: auf, aRmoaCine, xom Tavi da Tavi, SeeSvi am

martinis wrupvas

11

beki: kargi, kargi, xumrobac ar SeiZleba?

heklberi: ho da imaze vlaparakobdiT, macivari rom

iWyiteba mecnierebis uknidan

beki: da rom sxvafriv – misi warmoeba da

kvlavwarmoeba iseTive gaugebaria, rogorc,

magaliTad filosofia.. . .

heklberi: cotasTvis aris gasagebi

beki: xo, magram es cota ar aris maTi arsebobis

garantia

heklberi: magram saintereso sxvaa

beki: ra?

heklberi: magaliTad, Tu es ori rame principulad

erTniarad iqceva, ratom akeTebs erTi sagnebs, da

meore ara?

beki: vera

heklberi: qalis saxeli gaTqmevine

beki: iaffasiani CanarTia, amiT Tavs Tavs veravis

moawoneb

heklberi: mere ra, marto Sen unda ixumro?

beki: kargi.. sagnebis da sityvebis keTebas rac Seexeba, xom

giTxari, mecniereba araswori filosofiaa, romelic

cdilobs sagnebis gamravlebiT gaigos TavisTavadgasageboba,

filosofia ki araswori mecniereba, romelic

TavisTavadgasagebSi CaRrmavebas cdilobs, da amiT aseve

amravlebs sagnebs, rogorc ramdenime gverdis win

vlaparakobdiT..

heklberi: mainc ar momwons Seni axsna – Seni axsniT ar

mesmis, rogoraa rom teqnika da sityva gamodinareoben

raRac msjelobidan?

beki: anu, macivari da leqsi?

heklberi: ho

beki: eg saintereso kavSiria – rogor mravldebian

sityvebi da sagnebi.. Tavidan msjelobebs zedapiruli da

Sedegobrivi kavSiri unda hqonodaT sagnebTan – Toxis da

najaxis gamogonebas, amas paleontologiac gvidasturebs,

ar unda hqonoda metafizikuri msjelobebi wanamZRvrebad –

es msjelobebi, rom najaxi viRac RmerTma gamosWeda da

mere misca adamianebs, post-najaxum unda gaCeniliyo

heklberi: magram macivris SemTxvevaSi ase xom ar aris –

12

beki: ar damimTavrebia – post-naJaxum unda

gaCeniliyo saRi azriT, magram pirveli najaxi iseTi

mouxerxebeli da uazro iqneboda, mxolod

saritualod Tu gamoiyenebdnen da mere moixvew-

daixveweboda rogorc yovledRiurobaSi

gamosayenebeli

heklberi: iseve rogorc pirvel macivars samxedro-

samecniero daniSnuleba Tu eqneboda da Semdeg

moxdeboda misi samzareuloebSi dadgma..

beki: albaT ho.. Cven rom gvgonia, rom najaxi da

Toxi TavisiT gamogonebulia, xelmarjve ostatebis

mier. es albaT araswori warmodgenaa, najaxs da

Toxs jer ritualuri daniSnuleba unda hqonoda,

da mere unda gadasuliyo sayofacxovrebo nivTebis

kategoriaSi

heklberi: hoda mivediT im daskvnamde, rom

mecniereba, miuxedavad imisa, rom struqturulad da

socialuri arsebobis wesiT ar gansxvavdeba

filosofiisagan, da sxva msgavsi saqmianobebidan,

yoveldRiur aRqmaSi warmatebuli saqmianobaa, raki misi

Sedegi teqnikaa

beki: sxvanairad rom vTqvaT, is rac xels gviSlis

mecniereba bodvad da gonebrivi uwesrigobis formad

vaRiaroT, aris misi warmatebuli Sedegebi. Tumca, mkacrad

rom daviTvaloT, ramdeni adamiani awarmoebs da ramdeni

resursebi ixarjeba mecnierebis warmoebaze da Semdeg

Sevadarod is teqnikis warmoaebas da kvlavwarmoebas –

albaT Zalian mcire margi qmedebis koeficients miviRebT

heklberi: magram getyvian, rom amis daTvla ar SeiZleba,

rom erTi SexedviT umniSvnelo da uSedego moqmedebebi

saboloo jamSi iZlevian Sedegs

beki: SeiZleba, magram sanam teqnikis warmoeba ar Sewydeba,

da rogorc Cans ar Sewydeba, amas ver gavigebT

heklberi: nu gavigebT mere..

beki: marTalia. xom mivediT daskvnamde, rom adamianis

strquturul moqmedebebs saboloo jamSi erTi da igive

forma aqvT.. da rom es yvela moqmedeba SeiZleba aRvweroT,

rogorc sagnebis warmoebis da gamravlebis procesi

13

heklberi: exla xom ar vilaparakoT imaze, rogor

xdeba TviTon am moqmedebebs SigniT es yvelaferi?

beki: jer kargad rom movifiqroT, ra aris sagnebis

warmoebis es ori wesi – erTis mixedviT sagnebis

warmoeba saganSive CaRrmavebiT da faqtiurad, sagnis

“gayofiT” xdeba, meoris mixedviT – arsebulisaTvis

kidev msgavsi sagnebis damatebiT: anu, pirveli

maTgani sxva realobas qmnis da ase amravlebs

sagnebs, meore – imave realobaSi sadac sxva sagnebi

imyofebian

heklberi: anu, filosofia da mecniereba, ara?

beki: eg Zalian gamartivebaa – aseTi dayofa me

mgoni universaluria da yvelanairi dayofis

safuZvelia – adaminebic xom ori tipis arian -

isini, vinc darwmunebulebi arian, rom sakuTar

TavSi naxaven yvealfris Zalebs, da sxvebi, romelic

amisaTvis sxvaTa daxmarebas saWiroeben

heklberi: anu, rogorc mistikosi da Seyvarebuli?

beki: me mgoni kargi magaliTia – mistikosis Sedegi

sxva relobis Seqmnaa, Seyvarebis ki – bavSvebi, anda,

bolos da bolos am samyaroSi axali bmis Seqmna,

seqsualur bmas vgulisxmob . .

heklberi: “bmis” – ra cinikuria, TiTqos ZaRlebze

laparakob

beki: samagierod zusti

heklberi: bavSvebis, iseve, rogorc mecnierebidan teqnikis?

beki: daaxloebiT

heklberi: da yvelaferi SegviZlia davyoT am martivi

xerxiT?

beki: yvelaferi, adamianebi, sistemebi,

heklberi: politikuric?

beki: politikuric

heklberi: magaliTad?

beki: magaliTad, totalitaruli sistema iseTia, romelic

Tavisi arsebobis wyaros Tavis TavSive eZebs, rogorc

ekonomikur, aseve politikur doneze..

heklberi: hi, hi, da demokratiuli, romelic Tavisi

kavSirebis da bmebis gafarToebiT?

beki: cota sasacilod gamoiyureba, magram egrea.. sxva

magaliTic aviRoT

14

heklberi: magaliTad mecniereba.

beki: ki batono – SigniT mimarTuli –

teqstologiebi da literaturaTmcodneobebi, da

gereT mimarTuli - eqsperimentuli da a.S.

heklberi: maTematika?

beki: Teoriuli pirvelebSi, gamoyenebiTi –

meoreebSi...

heklberi: kargi, SeveSvaT axla bmebis Ziebas, ar

jobia isev davubrundeT rogor xdeba najaxebis da

macivrebis keTeba?

beki: modi cotas vimsjeleb: Tuki principulad

erTi da igivea najaxi da macivari, maSin xom unda

davuSvaT isic, rom maTi Seqmnis mizezic erTi da

igive unda iyos

heklberi: modi SegeSvelebi: raki egrea, da rogorc

adre vTqviT, Tu najaxs Tavidan ritualuri

gamoyeneba unda hqonoda, maSin misi wyaro

miTebi/religiebi unda yofiliyvnen.

beki: xoda gavagrZeleb - Tu miTebi da religiebi

najaxebs akeTeben, xolo mecniereba macivrebs

heklberi: xandaxan najaxebsac,

beki: maSin es ambavi ase uda movyveT: jer miTebi

amravlebdnen sagnebs, Semdeg mecniereba. miTebs mecniereba

Caenacvla

heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba mxolod imitom Caenacvla

miTebs, rom ufro warmatebulad da swrafad amravlebs

sagnebs?

beki: ho, ufro sworad, amitom gaxda dominanturi, miTebi

xom ar gamqralan..

heklberi: ar gamqralan, magram sagnebis gamravlebis

funqcia aSkarad mecnierebam CamoarTva..

beki: filosofia ki darCa imad rac iyo

heklberi: an garTulda, ramdenime filosofoss Tu

vkiTxavT

beki: ise, gamodis rom mecniereba mistikosis meTodiT

amuSavebs sakiTxs, da sagnebis gamravlebas - sxva sivrcis

SeqmniT swavlobs

heklberi: da bolos ra Sedegs miviRebT?…

beki: Zalian cota Tu dagvijerebs

15

heklberi: piriqiT rom gveqna?

beki: anu, sagnebis gamravlebiT mivdgomodiT?

heklberi: ho

beki: albaT igives, an rac ukve momxdara –

filosofias saqme aRar aqvso, rom ambobdnen..

heklberi: davbrundeT, ra

beki: ki batono, magram sad?

heklberi: ai iq, najaxebis da macivrebis mizezebze

rom vlaparakobdiT

beki: sadac vTqviT, rom najaxebi da macivrebi

miTebma da mecnierebebma warmoSves?

heklberi: ho

beki: kargi, gavagrZeloT – miTebi ki rogorc

amboben, im socialuri garemos anareklebi arian,

romelSic Cndebian xolme

heklberi: an piriqiT

beki: ra – socialuri garemoebi arian miTebis

anareklebi?

heklberi: amboben

beki: lamazia, magram naklebad sarwmuno. Cven marTalia,

jer miTebs viTvisebT da mere xdeba Cveni garemoSi Sesvla,

magram yoveli miTi raRac garemoSi iqmneba, ase rom

istoriulad jer garemo da mere miTi, Tumca

fsiqologiurad sul piriqiT

heklberi: da rogorc xdeba es arekvla?

beki: sakmaod martivad: is ierarqiuli struqtura,

romlic miTebSia gadmocemuli, gansakuTrebiT kosmogoniur

miTebSi, TiTqmis zustad asaxavs im socialur

struqturas, romlSic am miTebis xalxi cxovrobda

heklberi: SegiZlia momiyve rogor?

beki: rogor ara – ai naxe: yvela kosmogoniuri miTi ase

gamoiyureba - jer aris demiurgi

heklberi: an kvercxi, an ixvi, an sxva rame

beki: ho, mere es kvercxi

heklberi: an demiurgi

beki: iyofa an qmnis, an demiurgi qmnis kvercxs, romelic

iyofa, an kvercxi demiurgs, iyofa da qmnis damxmare

Zalebs, RmerTebs, demonebs, arsebebs..

heklberi: mere?

16

beki: mere es damxmareebi qmnian miwas, xilul

samyaros, Cven rom vicnobT da ase Semdeg. mere

demiurgi marTavs yvelafers amas damxmareebis

saSualebiT..

heklberi: socialuri struqtura?

beki: rom daakvirde, 20, 30, 40 saukunis

ganmavlobaSi kacobrioba am struqturiT cxovrobda

da dedamiwis zogierT adgilebSi exlac ase

cxovrobs _ anu – struqturis saTaveSi dgas

batoni, imperatori, mefe, mas hyavs vasalebi,

romlibic misi saxeliT marTaven saxelmwifos,

sofels, sabatonos…

heklberi: ase martivia?

beki: met-naklebad. es struqtura dResac

SenarCunebulia alag-alag, zogan formalurad,

zogan realurad.. es yvelaze Zveli struqturaa,

romlic yvelaze didxans arsebobda da dResac

arsebobs, alag-alag..

heklberi: ho, magram mecnierebaze amis Tqma SeiZleba? is

xom eqsperimentebzea dafuZnebuli, sando da ueWvel

Sedegebze

beki: aba ra giTxra.. amdeni xnis laparakis, TiTqmis

Tormeti gverdis Semdeg isev eqsperimentis ueWvelobaze

laparakob

heklberi: aba raze unda vilaparako?

beki: ici ra, modi jer isev miTebs da mecnierebebs

davubrundeT, da mere gadavideT eqsperimentebze, es male

moxdeba

heklberi: kargi

beki: es naklebad gavrcelebuli azria, magram mecnierebis

Teoriebi samyaros Sesaxeb socialuri garemos iseTive

anareklia, rogorc miTebi. aba naxe – didi afeTqebis

Teoria gviyveba, rogor warmoSva didma afeTqebam samyaros

oTxi ZiriTadi urTierTqmedeba

heklberi: rogorc didma RmerTma saSualo RmerTebi?

beki: ho, da mere am oTxi ZiriTadi Zalis

urTierTqmedebiT rogor Seiqmna samyaro

heklberi: vaa

17

beki: didi afeTqebis Teoria albaT demiurguli

struqturis bolo Teoriaa.. sxva ufro saintersoa

- atomis planetaruli modeli xom ici?

heklberi: ai, centris garSemo rom brunavs

elenetebi da rame?

beki: ho. eg Teoria maSin Seiqmna, sazogadoebaSi

Sinagani centris da periferiis sttruqturebi ukve

karga xania moqmedebdnen – socialuri struqtura,

sadac zeviT da qveeviT ki ar aris mTavari, aramed

SingiT da gareT – guli SigniTaa, Sesabamisad

mmarTvelobac, periferia – gareT. magram yvelaferi

erTiania da nawilebi ar arian mTelis gareSe. aseTi

strquturisaa magaliTad mecxramete-meoce saukunis

saxelwifo, nacionaluri saxelwmifos ideac am

struqturas efuZneba - mTeli, sadac garkveviT

viciT centri-mamoZravebeli da periferia –

amoZravebuli.

heklberi: kide?

beki: kide.. – axali Teoriebi – samyaros

mravalganzomilebianobas rom aRweren da amboben

rom arseboben sxva ganzomilebebi da samyaroebi – sxva

araferia, Tu ara sainformacio teqnologiebiT da

politikuri ZvrebiT miRebuli mravalfeniani, ucentro

socialuri samyaro, sadac kavSirebis da bmebis realurad

usasrulo SesaZeblobebi arsebobs: politikuri, iseve

rogorc biologiuri samyaro mxolod erTerTia, misgan

faqtiuri damoukideblobiT, Tumca masTan bmaSi, an sulac

bmis gareSe, arseboben sxvadasxva – xelovnebis, religiuri

samyaroebi, sxvadasxva jgufebi, adre rom erT calkeul

saxelmwifoSi marginalurs eZaxodnen da dRes ver daarqmev

amas, radgan aqtualurad arian mTels msoflioSi da

aTasobiT, zogjer ki milionobiT wevrsac iTvlian

heklberi: eg jgufebi xom Zalian fardobiTi iyo,

magaliTad, budistebi CvenTan marginaluri iyo, indoeTSi

centraluri

beki: ho, magram Tanamedrove socialuri samyaro imiT

gamoirCeva, rom yvela es jgufi rogorc calke samyaro ise

arsebobs, Tavisi wesebiT da kanonebiT, ekonomikiT da

kulturiT da ase Semdeg. me SeiZleba davrCe Cems

samyaroSi, SeiZleba erTdroulad ramdenimeSi vixcovro.. es

18

samyaro mravacentriania da uperiferio.. me rom

periferia mgonia, SeiZleba sxva socialuri

samyaros centri aRmoCndes da ase usasrulod..

heklberi: da Teoriebi, romlebic amboben..

beki: ho, romlebic amboben, rom es samyaro ar

aris erTaderTi, rom es adamiani ar aris erTaderTi

vinc azrovnebs – cxovelebic azrovneben da iseve

cxovroben, rogorc adamianebi – uyvarT, brazoben,

fiqroben, da ase Semdeg – am globaluri

socialuri struqturis anareklia.

heklberi: albaT isic ar aris SemTxveviTi, aseTi

Teoriebi iq rom viTardeba, sadac am globaluri

struqturis kvali kargad Cans – aSS-Si, inglisSi..

beki: sainterso azria

heklberi: ise me mgoni marTali xar.. kargad rom

gavaanalizoT, Toma akvinelis Sromebis ganxilvis

da daskvnebis struqtura SeiZleba velebis Sesaxeb

Tanamedrove Teoriebsac ki daemTxves

beki: angelozebi da velebi? ratomac ara, es xom

ukve gaakeTa viRacam..

heklberi: Zalian ki gagvitaca am kavSirebis danaxvam, magram

igive unda giTxra, rac cota gverdis win giTxari –

eqsperimentebis da dakvirvebebs ra vuyoT?

beki: axsna martivia – mecnieri uyurebs eqsperimentis an

dakvirvebis Sedegs da masSi arsebul konsrtuqcias

usadagebs am Sedegis gadmocemas, da meti araferi..

heklberi: sul araferi?

beki: TiTqmis

heklberi: anu, ambob, rom eqsperimentis da dakvirvebis

Sedegsac socialuri struqtura gansazRvravs?

beki: ho, magram martivad ara, gaxsovs, cota gverdis win

rom vTqviT – sagnebis gamravlebis mimarTuleba – Tuki es

axsna ar adgeba sagnebis gamravlebas, maSin sxva, ufro

gamosadegi axsnaa mosaZebni..

heklberi: Sen ambob, Tu Cveni sazogadoebis struqtura

Seicvala, samyaroc Seicvleba?

beki: sinamdvileSi ara, Tumca ra aris sinamdvile?

heklberi: uf, uf

beki: rogorc aris, ufro zusti iqneba – smayaros

aRwera, fenomenologia Seicvleba

19

heklberi: da maSasadame samyaroc.. magram

sazogadoeba xom met-naklebad globalurad unda

Seicvalos, misi gaziareba rom met-naklebad

absoluturi gaxdes..

beki: marTalia, ase unda moxdes, da es rogorc

xdeba... amaze SeiZleba yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi

tomebi daiweros..

heklberi: kvlevis saintereso Temaa – magaliTad

rogor moxda atomis planetaruli modelis

aRmoCena – socialuri cvlilebebi, ramac es

ganapiroba.. magaria

beki: ki, magram safrTxilo – vulgarul

sociologizmSi SeiZleba gadavarde.. Tanac – es

kvleva sakmaod rTulia – unda moaxerxo aerido

martivi kavSirebis danaxvas... meore mxriv, SeiZleba

es sulac ar iyos saWiro da SemovifargloT

daSvebiT, rom socialuri garemo ise Sedis

mecnierSi rom mas arc ekiTxeba

heklberi: ase..?

beki: ho, ase ufro advilia.. Tanac isic unda

gaviTvaliswinoT, rom konkretuli mecnieri konkretul

aRmoCenas SeiZleba, da namdviladac, sulac ar akeTebs

sagnebis gamravlebaze mimarTulobiT da piriqiT,

samyaroebis Seqmnas cdilobs, sagnebis bunebaSi CaRrmavebiT

heklberi: esec unda iyos.. yvela mecnieri ar aris sagnebis

gamravlebaze, anu, damxmareebis moxmobaze mimarTuli, iseve,

rogorc yvela filosofosi – sakuTar Tavze

beki: marTali xar.. Cven yovelTvis adamianebad vrCebiT, da

gareT mimarTuloba sagnebis gamravlebaze, Tu SigniT –

samyaroebis Seqmnaze – an Cvens bunebaSi Zevs, an Cvens mier

Seqmnili sakuTari Tavia..

heklberi: eseigi me an samyaroebs vqmni, an sagnebs

vamravleb?

beki: albaT yoveli konkrtuli adamini orives akeTebs –

ubralod masSi romelime sWarbobs xolme

heklberi: CemSi?

beki: rogorc avtori gadawyvets

20

cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi

di: Cunis provinciaSi gubernatorma mglebze

nadiroba gamoacxada

TeTri orqidea: ratom?

di: bavSvebs dasxmian Tavs

TeTri orqidea: bevri?

di: ara, erTi

TeTri orqidea: mere erTi mgelis gamo yvelaze

nadiroba?

di: ara, sxva drosac awuxebdnen mosaxleobaso

TeTri orqidea: aaaaa

TeTri orqidea: raRac dafiqrdi

di: isev avtorze – aba ase dawyebulma dialogma

sanamde unda migviyvanos

TeTri orqidea: ra ici ra unda, ras gaigeb..

di: morCi axla avtoris yovlisSemZleobaze

laparaks, Tan taniT vgrZnob, rom sul sxva rame

unda Cvengan

TeTri orqidea: taniT?

di: ho, ra iyo, ro ar maqvs imitom, Tumca, meore mxriv, arc

piri maqvs da arc cnobiereba

TeTri orqidea: piri da cnobiereba igulisxmeba, tanis qona

ki ara

di: me mgoni tanis qonac igulisxmeba, yovel SemTxvevaSi

Cveni avtoris mier mainc

TeTri orqidea: hoda, Tu gvaqvs tani, davubrundeT Cvens

mglebs

di: ras ambobdi, mglebis gamarTleba rom gindoda?

TeTri orqidea: iseTs arafers, ubralod ramdenime ambavia –

jer erTi, mgeli Tu nadirobs adamianebis sacxovreblis

axlos, iq ar cxovrobs, aramed maqsimalurad Sors, meorec

– yvela mgeli ar nadirobs Sinaur cxovelze, aramed

mxolod dasustebulebi an xrovidan gamogdebulebi

di: ufro advili rom aris Sinaur cxovelebze nadiroba

imitom?

TeTri orqidea: ho, da kidev – aqedan gamomdinare, Tu Cunis

provinciis gubernatori axlo-maxlo tyeebSi sadamsjelo

operaciebs moawyobs, didi Sansia iseTi mglebi daxocos,

21

romlebic saqonelze da adaminebze TavdasxmaSi ar

arian damnaSaveeebi

di: anu, swored iseTi mglebi, romlebic swored

tyeSi nadirobiT irCenen Tavs da amitom tyis

mezobeli soflidan ar elodebian Tavdasxmas?

TeTri orqidea: ho, da Sedegad miviRebT, rac ufro

meti Sinaur saqonelze aramonadire mgels moklaven,

miT ufro gaizrdeba iseTi mglebis ricxvi, romlebic

adaminebze an Sinaur saqonelze inadireben

di: da maTi mokvla sul ufro da ufro auclebeli

gaxdeba

TeTri orqidea: marTali xar, Sedegad – Cunis

provinciis gubernatori imperators, an sxva,

mezobeli provinciebis gubernatorebs sTxovs

daxmarebas da mgeli Cunis provinciis tyeSi saerTod

aRar iqneba

di: mesmis, rom barbarosul rames vityvi, magram rom

ar iyos, ra moxda mere?

TeTri orqidea: tyeSi balansi dairRveva

di: ra – balaxismWamelebi gamravldebian, da Sinaur

saqonels saZovari aRar eqneba?

TeTri orqidea: ase primitiulad ar aris saqme – bolos da

bolos im balaxismWamelebs, romc gamravldnen – adamianebi

dauregulireben raodenobas

di: aba raSia problema – ratom unda vinaRvlo viRac

mglebze – meyoleba erTi-ori zooparkSi an rame dacul

teritoriaze da morCa

TeTri orqidea: problema imaSia, rom balaxismWamelebi

ubralod ki ar gamravldebian – gadagvarebas daiwyeben

di: es rogor? aaa, tyis sanitari, tyis eqimi da tyis

mesaidumle

TeTri orqidea: eg tyis sanitroba bevrs pirdapiri

mnISvnelobiT esmis – anu, mgeli susts da avadmyofs Wams.

sinamdvileSi saqme ufro rTuladaa da sainteresod

di: aba miTxari

TeTri orqidea: ai geubnebi – jer cota Soridan unda

daviwyo – tyeSi cxovelebi erTian sistemas warmoadgenen –

isini erTmaneTTan Rrma da saintereso kavSirSi arian, rac

ar amoiwureba SeWma-gaqceviT..

22

di: xom vTqvi – sanitroba meTqi

TeTri orqidea: macale – magaliTad – rodesac

tyeSi mgeli aRar aris, xarirmebis asaki ganuzomlad

izrdeba – sanam mgeli tyeSia, is Semodgomis

Sejvarebebis Semdeg dasustebul xarirmebze nadirobs

da amiT xels uwyobs meore wels axalgazrda

xarirmebis gamefebas

di: anu, axalgazrda xarixmebs saSualeba eZleva

Sejvardnen furebTan?

TeTri orqidea: ho, nu mawyvetineb.. roca aseTi rame

ar xdeba, ufro asakovani xariremi axalgazrda

xarirmebs gamravlebis saSualeba ar aZlevs, da rac

ufro berdeba xariremi, met ufro arasrulyofil

STamomavlobas iZleva

di: ki magram, odesme xom mokvdeba?

TeTri orqidea: rogor ar mokvdeba, magram am

periodSi yofili axalgazrda xar-irmebi ukve

gaZlierebulni arian da isini ki ikaveban mis adgils,

magram maT ubralod ar ician rogor unda

Sejvardnen, arc undaT

di: ra impotentebi xdebian?

TeTri orqidea: faqtiurad, xoda, miuxedavad faqtiuri

impotenciisa, rac xandaxan ananizmSi gamoixateba,

axalgazrda xarixmebs ar uSveben furirmebTan – TviTonac

ver Svebian verafers da arc sxvas ar aZleven amis uflebas.

mere igive meordeba – beberi xariremi kvdeba da mis adils

axalgazrda, iseTive praqtikulad impotenti xariremi

ikavebs. Sesabamisad, maTi ricxvi, Tuki jer izrdeba mglebis

amowyvetasTan erTad, mere mcirdeba

di: es marTla ubedurebaa

TeTri orqidea: magram ara erTaderTi – irmebis ricxvis

gazrda sxva saxeobebis gaqrobas iwvevs – magaliTad, zogan

arCvi irmis naZovarze Zovs. rodesac irmebis ricxvi

izrdeba, arCvis adgili ubralod qreba da isic qreba xolme

di: egec ar aris mTlad didi ubedureba, zooparkSi

gveyoleba

TeTri orqidea: sxa ramec xdeba – ZaRlebi Sedian tyeebSi

da mere naxe Sen adamianebze Tavdasxmebi – Tan ZaRlebi

yvela ZaRlis msgavss ejvarebian – ase rom male tyeSi

ZaRlebis meti arcerTi mtacebeli aRar cxovrobs.. jer es

23

xrovebi tyeSi anadgureben cxovelebs, mere Sinaur

saqonelze gadadian

di: ra mglebi ar anadgureben?

TeTri orqidea: iq saintereso sistemaa Seqmnili –

tyeSi xom mglebis ramdenime ojaxi cxovrobs – xoda

maT Soris aris sasazRvro zonebi – anu, teritoria,

sadac ojaxis arcerTi wevri ar Sedis. ai, swored iq

mSobiaroben irmebi

di: sul aravin ar Sedis?

TeTri orqidea: marto ojaxebidan gagdebuli mglebi

– an Zalian bebrebi, an Zalian axalgazrdebi..

di: eseigi, es Seni mglebi sulac ar arian

angelozebi..

TeTri orqidea: iseve rogorc yvela sxva cxoveli

da adamiani – isani ubralod sainteresoebi arian

di: gareul ZaRlebze vlaparakobdiT - magaTac

daxocaven

TeTri orqidea: eg aris pasuxi? – yvelaferi unda

davxocoT da probleba aRar gveqneba

di: magas geubnebi, Sen rac ar unda mimtkico, rom mgeli

saintreso cxovelia, mand mainc ar aris argumenti, ratom

ar unda myavdes isini mxolod zooparkSi da ratom unda

iyvnen tyeSi

TeTri orqidea: marto mgeli ara, yvela cxoveli

sainteresoa – ici, Teoria arsebobs, rom iremi imitom ki

ar xdeba dominanti – ase eZaxian xarixems romelsac

haramxana hyavs da situacias akontrolebs – rom didi

rqebi aqvs – imitom aqvs didi rqebi, rom dominantia.

di: anu, jer xdeba dominanti da mere ezrdeba

gansakuTrebuli rqebi? sainteresoa, magram cxovelebis

mxolod zooparkSi yolis sawinaamRdego argumenti mainc ar

aris

TeTri orqidea: me ar maqvs pasuxi

di: samagierod me maqvs

TeTri orqidea: vau

di: marTla

TeTri orqidea: aba miTxari

di: saqme imaSia, rom arc raodenobis Semcireba, arc

egreTwodebuli auTenturoba, arc raRaca balansis rRveva

24

ar SeiZleba iyos cxovelebis daxocvis an mxolod

zooparkSi yolis sawinaamRdego argumenti, miT

umetes, rom isini TandaTan adamianis Seqmnilni

xdebian

TeTri orqidea: es rogor? imas gulisxmob, rom

adamianebi TandaTan klonirebas da genetikur

dublirebas iswavlian da yvela cxovels genetikuri

inJineriiT Seqnian? rogorc eleqtronul cxvrebze

ocnebis SemTxvevaSi?

di: ara, egere sulac ara. Cveni garemo dRes da ukve

didi xania cvlilebas ganicdis. Tu adre, ramdenime

saukunis da saukuneebis win msoflio SeiZleba

warmovidginoT rogorc udabnoebis, tyeebis da

wylebis uwyveti sistema, sadac alag alag mosCans

adaminebiT dasaxlebuli adgilebi dRes saqme

piriqiTaa – msoflios gars ekvris adamianTa

dasaxlebebis qseli, sadac alag-alag moCans

cxovelebis samyofeli adgilebi

TeTri orqidea: mere ra?

di: mere is, rom adamianTa dasaxlebebi ara marto

gamravldnen, aramed, barierebic ki Seqmnes cxovelebis

samoZrao sivrceebs Soris.

TeTri orqidea: Sesabamisad, adamianTa samyaros ganviTarebis

Sedegad cxovelTa

di: da ara marto cxovelTa

TeTri orqidea: ho, da ara marto cxovelTa, mcenareTac,

samyaro gaxda dayofili – isini ver urTierToben ise,

rogorc saukuneebis winaT.

di: Tu adamianisaTvis maSin problema ar iyo, an nakleb

problemuri iyo, tyeebSi gamaval bilikebze emogzaura, dRes

sruliad warmoudgenelia jixvebis jogi, romlic

saavtoobilo trasaze moZraobs an afTrebis gundi, qalaqs

rom kveTs..

TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan ra gamomdinareobs?

di: is, rom Tuki bolo dromde cxovelTa samyaros

SenarCuneba-ganaxleba sxvadasxva qve-ekosistemebis

urTierTqmedebiT xdeboda. is Tanamedrove saxe, romlsac

dRes cxovelTa da mcenereTa samyaro iRebs, am

urTierTqmedebis gareSea datovebuli

25

TeTri orqidea: ise, jobia am saqmeSi mcenareebs nu

gavrevT, imitom rom maT damtkicebuli funqcia aqvT

– romelic Jangbadis warmoeba/kvlavwarmoebas exeba,

ase rom maTi mofrTxileba sruliad gazomili,

awonili da pragmatulia

di: albaT marTali xar. hoda imas vambobdi, rom

ekosistemebs Soris urTierTqmedebebis saSualeba

aRar aris – urbanistuli da araurbanistuli

sistemebi amas dRiTi dRe ufro SeuZlebels xdian –

iketeba gzebi da sivrceebi romlebic maT

erTmaneTTan akavSirebdnen

TeTri orqidea: mere, sad aris Seni argumentebi?

di: macale. amitom is garemo romelSic cxoveli

cxovrobs xdeba adamianis mier Seqmnili da misi

moqmedebiT gansazRvruli. amitom, adamiani iqceva

pasuxismgeblad im konkretul garemoze, romlSic man

cxovelebi moaqcia

TeTri orqidea: Sen ambob, rom Cveni garemomcveli

bunebac iseTive adamianis Seqmnilia, rogorc qalaqebi

da sxva industriuli kompleqsebi?

di: ho, gansxvaveba ar aris. adamianma iseve Seqmna am bolo

saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi buneba, rogorc qalaqi.

TeTri orqidea: alabT marTali xar – nacionaluri parkebi

da nakrZalebi amis magaliTebia

di: hoda nacionalur parkebamdec mivediT – ara marto

nacionalur parkSi arsebuli mcenareebi da mdinareebi

xdebian adaminis produqti – is cxovelebic, romlebic

SigniT arian

TeTri orqidea: anu, adamianebi ise gaxdnen cxovelebis da

saerTod bunebis Semoqmedebi, rom verc ki gaiges?

di: ho, da es albaT erTaderTi ramea Tanamedrove samyaroSi,

rac adaminebis RvTiur bunebaze miuTiTebs

TeTri orqidea: es rogor?

di: rogor da – rogorc Zvel aRTqmaSia – RmerTma Seqmna

kaci da qali, da Semdeg ise gamovida, kaci da qali RmerTis

nebis winaamRdeg wavidnen

TeTri orqidea: mere ra SuaSia aq cxovelebi?

di: mTlad pirdapiri da martivi analogia ar aris – adamini

qmnida da qmnis manqanebs, mecnierebas, teqnologiebs, wers

wignebs, da uecrad, Tuki aq es sityva SeiZleba gamoiyeno –

26

aRmoCndeba rom man buneba da cxovelTa samyaro

Seqmna – anu, isini uecrad mTlianad aRmoCndnen masze

damokidebulni da misgan gamomdinareebi

TeTri orqidea: iseve, rogorc amas Zveli aRTqma

gviyveba – RmerTi samyaros qmnida da Sedegad

adamianebis samyaro miiRo

di: aq Teologiuri SekiTxvebis legioni SeiZleba

gaCndes – magaliTad, icoda Tu ara RmerTma winaswar

ra moxdeboda Tu ara, Tu icoda, sad aris

Tavisufali neba... magram axla es ar gvainteresebs,

mTavaria RvTiuri bunebis maxasiaTebeli

ganvsazRvroT: rodesac akeTeb rames da is, rac Seni

keTebidan ar gamomdinarebs – warmoiqmneba, iwyebs

arsebobas da yuradRebis da zrunvis obieqti xdeba

TeTri orqidea: mere eg ra argumentia?

di: is argumentia, rom teqnologiebis da qalaqebis

ganviTarebis procesSi, ise, rom Cven arc gvifiqria,

cxovelTa samyaro Cveni zrunvis obieqti gaxda –

Seicvala buneba da Secvala Cveni bunebac – Cven,

adamianebma miviReT Cveni RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli niSani da aseve – cxovelebis RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli niSanic miviReT

TeTri orqidea: cota zedmeti tvinis Wyleta xom ar aris?

di: macale. cxovelebi aRarasodes aRar iqnebian iseTebi,

rogorebic isini manamde iyvnen – damoukideblebi da

planetis mflobelebi, iseve, rogorc adamianebi verasodes

veRar dabrundebian edemis baRSi

TeTri orqidea: Tumca, es dabruneba xom idealia –

utopisturi Tu rogoric ginda..

di: aseve cxovelebis SemTxvevaSi – iseve, rogorc Cven

cvdilobT maqsimalurad aRvadginoT bunebis istoriuli

saxe – rodesac mTeli planeta erTi sistema iyo, qalaqebis

da saavtomobilo gzebis barierebis gareSe, aseve aris

edemis baRi adamianebis mSvidi da urTierTsargebliani

cxovrebis arqetipi

TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan gamomdinareobs rom cxovelebi

ar unda vxocoT da vanadguroT, rom isini mxolod

zooparkebSi ar unda gvyavdes?

di: ki, am midgomaSia principuli gansxvaveba – cxovelebis

saxeobebis SenarCunebisaTvis principuli mniSvneloba ara

27

aqvs sad iqneba es saxeoba – zooparkSi Tu

nacionalur parkSi, magram Cveni RvTiurobis

dasadastureblad aqvs – Cveni pasuxismgeblobaa maTi

dRevandeli arseboba, da Tu marTla gvaqvs RvTiuri

buneba – Cveni zrunvis sagnad cxovelebis tyeebSi

yofna unda darCes

TeTri orqidea: ra ucnauria – TiTqos adamianis

RvTiuri bunebis damadasturebel argumentebs

Teologia, gawie-gamowie da filosofia mainc unda

eZebdes – yovel SemTxvevaSi tradiciulad asea, exla

ki ucbad amis damdasturebeli ekologia da sxva

sabunebismetyvelo mecnierebebi aRmoCdnen

di: yvela ara

TeTri orqidea: ra mniSvneloba aqvs – TavisTavad

Zalian momxiblvelia – Cveni RvTiuroba, da aseve,

cxovelebis RvTiuroba mtkicdeba iq, sadac ar unda

mtkicdebodes – pragmatuli da TiTqosada civi

mecnierebis sferoSi

di: ase gamovida – Zveli aRTqmis aseTi gageba

avtors rom ar moewonos?

TeTri orqidea: Tavs nu isuleleb – Zalian avtonomiuri

xom ar ggonia Seni Tavi

di: ar mgonia, magram axla misi namdvili avtorobis

damadasturebeli xom is iqneba, ramdenad gagviSvebs is da

ramdenad gamovalT misi kontrolidan

TeTri orqidea: ase gamova, rom sxva da sxva avtorebis

survili, daasabuTon, rom teqstebi damoukideblad

cxovroben, sonamdvileSi emasaxureba ambiciur mizans:

aCvenon, rom avtorebi RmerTebi arian

di: da Sesabamisad, avtorebis gaqrobisken ki ar aris es

mcdelobebi mimarTuli, aramed misi axali agebisaken da

yvela avtoris RvTiur arsebebad qcevisaken..

TeTri orqidea: SeiZleba, magram es xom Zalian rTulia –

Cvens cxvrebs – anu, cxovelebs xom ar davubrundeT, kidev

erTxel rom vTqvaT, ratom ar unda daxocos Cunis

provinciis gubernatorma mglebi

di: es ukve vTqviT – amiT is Tavis mizans – Sewyvitos

mglebis soflebze Tavdasxmebi, ver miaRwevs, piriqiT,

SeiZleba gazardos kidec TavdasxmaTa ricxvi

TeTri orqidea: da sul rom amoxocos?

28

di: sadRac albaT esec moxdeba, magram am SemTxvevaSi

Cven sul ufro da ufro davSordebiT Cvens RvTiur

bunebas – anu, Cven risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria

TeTri orqidea: ra Rrma Teologiaa – avtori dadna

albaT – raze ar ufiqria RmerTs da ra ar undoda

– rogori inteleqtualuri gansxvavebaa

di: es Seni sityvebi ar aris, avtors Sercxva

zedmeti seriozuloba da meti araferi

TeTri orqidea: albaT, aba me amas ra maTqmevinebda

di: anu, Cveni risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria, imaze

pasuxismgeblobas da zrunvas

TeTri orqidea: da ufro zustad rom vTqvaT?

di: erTic unda davamato, sanam am dazustebaze

gadavidodi - Cven rogorc konkretul adamianebs

SegviZlia vizrunoT cxovelebze, magram iseTive

Sedegs rom mivaRwioT, rogorsac RmerTma miaRwia

Cvenze zrunviT, mxolod erTad SegviZlia amis

gakeTeba

TeTri orqidea: anu, Cven mxolod erTobliv zrunvaSi

vxdebiT is rac varT, anu, mxolod erTobliv zrunvaSi

SegviZlia Sedegis miRweva

di: me mgoni sakmaod garkveviT vTqviT, ratom ar unda

daxoco cxovelebi tyeebSi, magram igives Tqma SeiZleba

Cveni, adaminebis moqmedebebis sxva Sedegebze – magaliTad,

mawanwala, an moSimSile bavSvebze

TeTri orqidea: ara mgonia – sakuTar Tavze zrunva ar unda

iyos RvTiurobis niSani – es raRacnairi dazRvevaa, rom

Cveni saerTo mdgomareoba gamovasworoT, ar davuSvaT

Cvennairebis tanjva – imitom, rom es mere Cven TviTon ar

Semogvibrundes

di: albaT marTali xar – RvTiurobis namdvili dasturi –

iseT rameze zrunvaa, romlis gaqrobac Sen arafers ar

dagaklebs, ar imoqmedebs Senze – aranairad – iseve, rogorc

RmerTze ar imoqmedebs Cveni ararseboba – rac ar unda

Tqvan Tanamedrove filosofosebma

TeTri orqidea: mxolod cxovelebze zrunviT varT Cven

RviTiuri arsebebi, da mxolod cxovelebi arian is RvTiuri

arsebebi, romelTa saSualebiTac Cven aseTebi vxdebiT

29

di: anu, es Cveni, rogorc kacobriobis arCevani unda

gaxdes?

TeTri orqidea: me ara mgonia, rom kacobrioba unda

Seikribos, erTad davjdeT da arCevnebi movawyoT..

di: me ase vulgarulad ar miTqvams..

TeTri orqidea: movawyoT arCevnebi Tu raze

vizrunoT – sakuTar Svilebze Tu cxovelebze

di: egre arc me mgonia

TeTri orqidea: es ar aris is arCevani romelic

Cvens winaSea – me Svilebs da cxovelebs Soris ki

ar virCev, aramed cxovelebze zrunvasa da ar

zrunvas Soris

di: Tumca, xom SeiZleba afrikis romelime

saxelmwifoSi moSimSile xalxs, SimSiliT

mucelgasiebul bavSvebs ise Sexedo, rogorc

cxovelebs da amitom moindomo maTze zrunva..

TeTri orqidea: ratom – Tu ifiqreb, rom maTi

gaqrobiT Sen arafri dagakldeba?

di: ho, isini imdenad Sors arian, rom gind yofilan

gind ara

TeTri orqidea: me ara mgonia rom aseTi analogia

marTebuli iyos – Sexedo moSomSile bavSvebs rogorc

gadaSenebis piras misul cxovelebs..

di: mesmis rom cinikuria da gamosavali ar aris - rogorc

ki aseTi xedva giCndeba, iq zrunva qreba

TeTri orqidea: magram meore mxriv, Tu sxva gamosavali ar

gaqvs, da moSimSile bavSvebis aRqma zrunvisaTvis,

sazrunvelad, mxolod maSinaa SesaZlebeli, Tu maT Sexedav

rogorc gaqrobis piras misul cxovels?

di: ara mgonia – aq albaT mainc gamoyenebiTi faqtori

erTveba – moSimSile bavSvebs rom vexmarebi, amiT amave dros

vzrdi am bavSvebs, vaswavli maT adamianebs Soris

urTierTobas – amas ki mxolod gamoyenebiTi safuZveli aqvs

– jer erTi Tu isini daxmarebis gareSe davtove,

gadarCenili bavSvebidan didi Sansia Cemi garemos

dauZinebeli mteri miviRo, an iseT epidemias davudo saTave,

rom Cemi myudro da mowyobili sazogadoeba Seiwiros, anda

– iseTi procesebi daiwyos, sulac rom msoflio

dapirispirebaSi gadaizardos

30

TeTri orqidea: egre xom cxovelebzec SeiZleba

vTqva – rom ar movuaro – gamravldebian, SegvWamen,

avadmyofobebs gadagvdeben

di: saqme imaSia, rom me moraluri kanonebi uflebas

maZlevs cxovelebi davxoco da mxolod zooparkSi

myavdes, xolo igive ar SemiZlia gavakeTo moSimSile

bavSvebis mimarT

TeTri orqidea: ra sindisi Segawuxebs?

di: ara, bevri adamiani aRmoCndeba msoflioSi

romelic amis gamo gadawyvets damartyas da

gamanadguros – an moraluri mosazrebebiT, anda –

imis gamo rom Cemi Zalauflebis miReba moundeba

TeTri orqidea: mokled, msoflioSi arsebuli

akrZalvebis da daSvebebis sqeli ar gaZlevs amis

saSualebas

di: da Tu ar maZlevs amis saSualebas, ese igi

SeuZlebelia

TeTri orqidea: Tumca, garemos damcvelebi cdiloben

aseTve qseli Seqmnan cxovelebis garSemoc

di: met-naklebi warmatebebiT – saboloo jamSi

warumateblad, radgan SeiZleba damarwmuno, rom cxovelebi

ar unda gavanadguro, magram damarwmuno imaSi, rom

cxovelebis ganadgureba me TviTon memuqreba rameTi –

SeuZlebelia

TeTri orqidea: amitom, rac ar unda ganvaviTaroT teqnika

da teqnologia, fizika da biologia, dRes Cveni RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli mxolod cxovelebze zrunvaa..

di: aseve, cxovelebis RvTiurobis damadasturebeli, magram

sityva "dRes" ratom gamoiyene?

TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom dRes es aris Cveni RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli, guSin, anu, sxva dinastiis mmarTvelobis

dros – SeiZleba sxva iyo..

di: ra saqme gauCine exla Teologebs, vinc dagijerebs, –

unda dajdnen exla da qeqon teqstebi, ra iyo Cveni

RvTiurobis damadasturebeli asi, aTasi wlis win

TeTri orqidea: Tumca, SeiZleba arc araferi..

di: SeiZleba arc araferi, magram maSin xom ucnaur

daskvnamde mivdivarT, rom maSin RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli ubralod ar gvqonda

31

TeTri orqidea: an, Zalian banaluri xom ar viqnebi

rom vTqva, rom – SeiZleba arc gvWirdeboda

di: ara mgonia

TeTri orqidea: hoda vambob – SeiZleba arc

gvWirdeboda

di: da axla gvWirdeba?

TeTri orqidea: ratomac ara

di: ratom exla da ara maSin?

TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom.. imitom rom bevri

pasuxi arsebobs

di: magaliTad?

TeTri orqidea: magaliTad, ise davSordiT RmerTs

mxolod exla dagvWirda da imitom, an kidev –

mxolod exla gavxdiT Rirsebi, rom RvTiurobis

niSani SegveZina.. Cven da cxovelebsac

di: anu, RvTiurobis niSani marto, avtonomiurad ar

SeiZineba?

TeTri orqidea: rogorc Cans, exla sxvanairad

SeuZlebelia

di: exla?

TeTri orqidea: kargi, Cvens droSi.

32

meSvide

tomi: guSin qalaqSi rom Semovedi aRarc imdeni

nangrevi iyo da aRarc damwvari xorcis suni. rame

Seicvala omis Semdeg?

brigita: cota Caiwie. albaT. quCebic ikirwyleba da

es Cveni zeimic aRar aris mxolod msxverplis

Sewirvis msgavsi. xalxic ufro imedianad dadis da

gamoiyureba.

tomi: Tqven albaT amas demokratiis mmarTvelobas

gindaT rom umadlodeT.

brigita: ratomac ara. magram me ufro am

mmarTvelobas liberalurs davarqmevdi. anu, gan-

Tavisuflebaze mimarTuls.

tomi: xo magram ra gansxvavebaa, demokratiuls

umadli Tu liberalurs?

brigita: didi gansxvavebaa: liberaluri niSnavs

Tavisuflebaze da gan-Tavisuflabaze mimarTuls..

tomi: e.i. revoluciurs?

brigita: SeiZleba magasac. demokratiuli niSnavs iseT

kanonebze mimarTuls, romlebic qmnian Tavisuflebis,

arCevanis Tavisuflebis safuZvlebs da ara TviTon

Tavisuflebas.

tomi: es gansxvaveba Tavisuflebis safuZvlebsa da

Tavisuflebas Soris banalurad da araarsebiTad meCveneba.

ara mgonia didi mniSvneloba hqondes, Tavisuflebas flob

Tu Tavisuflebis safuZvelze migiwvdeba xeli.

brigita: me kidev ara mgonia, rom am sakiTxSi garkvevis

gareSe win waviwioT. sad unda waviwioT? win an arsebobs an

ara.

tomi: rogor ara, arCevani xom gvaqvs, an win waviwioT Cvens

msjelobaSi Tavisuflebis da Tavisuflebis safuZvlebis

Sesaxeb, an ara.

brigita: es arCevani iluzorulia. Tu win waviwevT,

waviwevT, Tu ara, maSin ara.

tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? mxolod imas rasac niSnavs, Tu sxva

ramesac?

33

brigita: ra Tqma unda imas sul ara, rom me

fatalisti var an am wuTSi Semipyro yovlis

msWvalavma fatalisturma gawyobam.

tomi: aba ras?

brigita: Tundac imas, rom am momentSi avtori

gansazRvravs Cvens viTomda Tavisufal nebaze

damyarebul dialogs.

tomi: aseTi banaloba..

brigita: ra, jer ar miTqvams?

tomi: rogor ityodi, rodesac bundovani grZnoba

mawuxebs, rom cxrameti-oci kiTxva-pasuxis win

gavCndiT

brigita: da Cveni mogonebebi im momentSi xdeba

warsulis wili rodesac maT mogonebas daviwyebT

ramdenime kiTxva-pasuxis Semdeg..

tomi: an ar daviwyebT..

brigita: da maSin mogonebebic aRar gveqneba

tomi: magram axla rom vlaparakobT ise, TiTqos

mogonebebi gvqondes

tomi: ki magram ra mianiSnebs imaze rom mogonebebi gvaqvs?

brigita: mxolod analogiebi – ar SeiZleba vlaparakobdeT

da sityvebis mniSvnelobebis gamocdileba ar gvqondes

tomi: da Tu imitacias CavdivarT?

brigita: Tundac. Tuki imitacias CavdivarT, Tu imitacia

srulyofilia, maSin is saimitirebelis igiveobrivia?

tomi: ki magram ori erTnairi rom ar arsebobs?

brigita: aaa, maSin is ori erTi da igive romaa?

tomi: ho.

brigita: maSin is aRar iarsebebs ris imitaciasac vakeTebT

tomi: an Cven

brigita: es ukve mistikaa

tomi: mistika aRar arsebobs

brigita: ratom?

tomi: adgili aRar aqvs, marto wignebi arseboben mistikaze

brigita: aRarc Cvens gverdiT? ai am milze?

tomi: ara mgonia

brigita: ratom? Cveni tani ver itans?

tomi: xo, Cven tans atana ara aqvs..

brigita: moica, moica, veRar gvTargmnian

34

tomi: aris amaSi raRac Soreulad nacnobi.. isev

fsevdomogonebebma Semipyro

brigita: ras makeTebinebs tani

tomi: tani ki ara mzera

brigita: ra gansxvavebaa..

tomi: iseve rogorc mogonebebi, Cveni tanic xom

igulisxmeba

brigita: da Cveni piric

tomi: axla raRa vqnaT? xom ar gveTxova

avtorisaTvis SegveSvas

brigita: mere gamova rame?

tomi: ratomac ara.

brigita: rame iyo?

tomi: rogor ara

brigita: ras ityuebi

tomi: ras ambob, Sen veraferi ver igrZeni?

brigita: Cavardna maqvs mexsierebaSi

tomi: mere eg aris araferi?

tomi: xo magram me amas mxolod axla vgrZnob da ara maSin

brigita: ki magram Tavisufleba?

tomi: ra Tavisufleba?

brigita: SesaZlebelia?

tomi: Tu avtori gvyavs?

brigita: Tu teqstSi varT amaze laparakic zedmetia,

rogori irlandiuri qelexebic ar unda gadavuxadoT

avtors

tomi: da Tu teqsts gareTac varsebobT..

brigita: da RmerTi avtoria? arc maSin.

tomi: aba imas RmerTi avtori egona?

brigita: aba, ra magrad SeeSala..

brigita: aba

tomi: da Tu RmerTi avtori ar aris?

brigita: maSin ufro rTuladaa saqme..

tomi: ratom?

brigita: imitom rom kiTxvas arasworad vsvamT

tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? imas rom pasuxi zedapirzea Tu rame

ufro mniSvnelovans?

brigita: me mgoni rames ufro

35

tomi: ras?

brigita: imas rom kiTxva Cvengan unda daisvas da ara

RmerTisgan

tomi: ratom?

brigita: imitom, rom amocanis amoxsnis

elementaruli pirobaa, rom nacnobidan unda daiwyo

amoxsna da ara ucnobidan

tomi: e.i. ontologiuri, gnoseologiuri da

epistemologiuri..?

brigita: diaxac rom. es xom igivea, erTucnobian

gantolebaSi, magaliTad 7+X=12 12-s ki ar gamoaklo

7 da X miiRo, aramed daiwyo X-is Canacvleba

erTidan da mxolod mexuTe mcdelobaze mixvide

swor pasuxamde.

tomi: ki magram RmerTi xom iqsi ar aris, da arc

adamiani aris iseTive garkveuloba, rogorc Svidi an

Tormeti

brigita: me principze vambob da ara identobaze. me

rac vTqvi, gulisxmobs imas, rom nebismieri avtori -

cinikurad JRers, ara - rodesac RmerTis arsebobis

dasabuTebas cdilobda, sakuTar Tavs warmoaidgenda xolme

RmerTad.

tomi: rac, ar iyo Zneli, is xom avtori iyo..

brigita: marTalia. garda amisa, RmerTis arsebobis

dasabuTebis argumentebi RmerTis arsebobas asabuTeben da

sxvas arafers. Cven ki, Tu sworad vimsjeleT, RmerTis

arseboba erT-erTi Sedegi unda iyos, romelic Cveni

msjelobidan gamova, magram ara erTaderTi.

tomi: ki magram ratom?

brigita: imitom, rom mxolod am SemTxvevaSi gaxdeba

RmerTis arseboba misaRebi da ara sakamaTo, rwmena/codnis

sasworze Camokidebuli.

tomi: im SemTxvevaSic ki, dasabuTeba saeWvo pirobiTobas

rom daemyaros?

brigita: yvela dasabuTeba pirobazea damyarebuli. Tanac is

dasabuTeba, romelic realurad raimes asabuTebs, yovelTvis

saeWvo pirobiTobas emyareba da ara TavsTavad cxads

tomi: anu, Tu asabuTebs ufro mets, vidre es pirobaSi

igulisxmeba?

brigita: ho

36

tomi: anu, verafriT ver vipoviT iseT wanamZRvars,

mTlianad rom utyuari iyos?

brigita: “mTlianad” ras niSnavs ar vici. magram

iseTi wanamZRvari da amosavali mainc unda vipovoT,

romlis uaryofa Zneli iqneba..

tomi: an SeuZlebeli

brigita: SeuZlebeli uaryofisTvis ar arsebobs,

bolos da bolos “ara” yvelafers mieyeneba Tundac

rogorc metafora.

tomi: maSin rogori Zneli?

brigita: Zalian

tomi: mainc rogori?

brigita: iseTi, romlis uaryofac Zalian bevr rames

gaxdis uazrod

tomi: magaliTad?

brigita: magaliTad dialogs, diskusias,

tomi: arsebobas?

brigita: arsebobasac

tomi: arsebobas uaryofs?

brigita: ara, romelic uazros gaxdis

tomi: eg ras niSnavs?

brigita: eg imas niSnavs, rom uaryofa eTikurad unda iyos

SeuZlebeli da ara logikurad

tomi: egeTi rame ra aris?

brigita: unda iyos.. .. iseTi rame, rasac uaryof da azri

aRar eqneba laparakis gagrZelebas

tomi: magaliTad?

brigita: magaliTad Tavisufali neba

tomi: eg swori magaliTia?

brigita: ki. Tu ityvi, rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs da

yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve

tomi: kidev sityvebiT TamaSi, Targmani gaWirdeba

brigita: ara uSavs.. rames moifiqreben. xoda Tu ityvi, rom

yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve gansazRvrulia, maSin

dialogs an kamaTs azri ara aqvs – Sedegic gansazRvrulia

da Senc, ra azri aqvs kamaTob Tu ara..

tomi: anu, Tu ityvi rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs, es

niSnavs, rom yvelaferi gansazRvrulia, da movlenaTa jaWvi,

romlSic Sen cxovrob ucvlelia

brigita: ho, mag SemTxvevSi araferi ar SeiZleba moxdes

37

tomi: yvelaferi ukve moxda da elodeba rom es

momxdari gamovlindeba

brigita: Cven arafris gakeTeba ar SegviZlia, imitom

rom arCevani ara gvaqvs, Tu gvgonia rom gvaqvs, es

iluziaa

tomi: da xar rogorc marioneti

brigita: ratom rogorc?

tomi: marTali xar, aseTi arseboba, Tuki eg

marTalia, samarcxvinoa

brigita: da Sesabamisad, msjelobis gagrZelebas azri

ara aqvs

tomi: imitom, rom es msjelobac, SeiZleba, Seni

dilamdeli kuWis moqmedebiT aris gansazRvruli

brigita: ratom “SeiZleba”? sworedac rom

gansazRvrulia. zustad rom dilandelma yabzobamac

gansazRvra aucileblobiT es dialogi

tomi: Cvenma Tu sxvisam?

brigita: sxvismac, ra Tqma unda

tomi: da yvelaferi aris urTierTgansazRvrulobis

jaWvi da mimdevroba

brigita: swored aq SeiZleba mTeli simZafriT - saSineli

sityvaa, Zmars gavs - daisvas kiTxva, risTvis arsebob..

tomi: eg xom uazro kiTxvaa

brigita: mxolod maSin, Tu fiqrob, rom Tavisufali neba

gaqvs, Tu ara gaqvs, maSin swored rom droulia da azriani

tomi: eseigi, vinc arsebobis mizanze svams kiTxvas, misTvis

Tavisufali neba ar unda arsebobdes

brigita: ho, misTvis arCevani SeuZlebelia, yvelaferi

gansazRvrulia, da Sesabamisad, kiTxulob, Tu es asea, maSin

ratom gaqvs amis cnobiereba?

tomi: xoo, am SemTxveaSi cnobierebis, miT umetes amis

cnobierebis arseboba sadizmia

brigita: aba, boroti RmerTi da ase Semdeg

tomi: aris amaSi raRac komikuri da TviTgvemuri – jer

ambob rom Tavisufali neba ar aris, da mere Tavs iklav amis

gamo

brigita: rac imTaviTve gansazRvrulia

tomi: an maxvilgonier pasuxs scem, rTuli konstruqciebiT

brigita: rac aranakleb komikuria

tomi: mere kaTarzisic dgeba

38

brigita: da dakarguli meore wignic gamogvivida, me

mgoni

tomi: ese igi, Tavisufali nebis arseboba unda iyos

is amosavali romelsac unda daveyrdnoT

brigita: ho

tomi: mandedan gamomdinare, unda amovideT im

daSvebidan, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobs

brigita: da Tu Tavisufali neba arsebobs, maSin

arCevani unda arsebobdes, anu, Cemi arCevani unda

iyos ara iluzoruli, rodesac me mgonia rom

arCevans vakeTeb, sinamdvileSi ki ras gavakeTeb ukve

gansazRvrulia winaswar da me mxolod

ontologiuri nevrozis Casaqrobad mWirdeba

Tavisufali nebis warmosaxva

tomi: aramed Cemi arCevani namdvili arCevani unda

iyos erT, or sam da SeiZleba usasrulo

SesaZleblobebs Soris

brigita: “SesaZleblobebs” albad cudi sityvaa,

radganac im tradiciaSi, romelSic axla avtori

gvwers

tomi: uTargmnelSi nu gadadixar

brigita: im tradiciaSi romelSic Cven axla vlaparakobT

SesaZlebloba SeuZleblobas ufro niSnavs – maxsovs,

SesaZlebloba sinamdviles upirispirdeba..

tomi: aqedan modis yvelaferi – rac sinamdvilea is ver

iqneba SesaZlebloba, aqtualuris da potenciuris

dapirispireba, rac SesaZleblobaa an ganamdvildeba an ara..

da ase Semdeg

brigita: albaT sityva SesaZlebloba ar unda gamoviyenoT..

tomi: da mxolod realobis cnebebiT Tu vilaparakebT. Tuki

me marTlac maqvs arCevani, maSin me realobebs Soris unda

virCevde da ara SesaZleblobebs Soris. mxolod maSin iqneba

arCevani namdvili arCevani Tuki me marTlac virCev or gzas

Soris, virCev marjvniv wavide Tu marcxniv, da ara Tavs

vimSvideb Tavisufali arCevanis iluziiT an sakuTari misiis

ZebniT.

brigita: ise, misiis Zebnas rom davubrundeT – pirovnuli

misiis ideac xom Tavisufali nebis ararsebobis aRiarebidan

gamomdinareobs: Tuki me ar maqvs Tavisufali neba da maqvs

cnobiereba, maSasadame me maqvs misia – anu, raki Tvisufali

39

neba ar arsebobs, Cemi cnobierebis gamarTleba

mxolod Cemi misiaa, da sxva araferi.

tomi: mivediT daskvnamde, rom Tuki misiaze

laparakob, maSin Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs?

brigita: ase gamodis.

tomi: magaram xom SeiZleba erTmaneTSi vurevdeT

misias da arCevans?

brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom misia Tavis TavSi

moicavs sxva SesaZleblobis SeuZleblobas, rodesac

ar arsebobs movlenaTa ganviTarebis sxva gza.

tomi: Tavisufali neba uaryofs misias, magram

aRiarebs arCevans, arCevans or

brigita: an usasrulod bevr

tomi: kargi, an usasrulod bevr SesaZleblobebs

Soris, rodesac orive, an usasrulod bevri

SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalis aris

brigita: eg xom niSnavs, rom Tuki orive, an

usasrulod bevri SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalisaa,

maT Tanabari Zala unda SeunarCundeT mas Semdegac,

rac Cven erT-erTs avirCevT

tomi: Cven mxolod maSin gvaqvs arCevanis SesaZleboba, Tuki

yvela arCevani, romelic Cvens winaSe dgas, arsebobs da Cven

mxolod erT-erT gzas vaniWebT upiratesobas.

brigita: xom laparakoben Tanamedrove mecnierebi paralelur

samyaroebze – Cven varT Cvens ganzomilebebSi, arseboben

kidev damatebiTi ganzomilebebi da paraleluri samyaroebi

tomi: maT damajerebel da TviTdajerebul msjelobebSi vin

ar daibneva, bolos iZulebuli xar sityvaze daujero

brigita: magram eg xom meta-enis ambavia da ara sinamdvilis

aRweris?

tomi: ra mniSvneloba aqvs? magram miuxedavad yvelafrisa,

damatebiTi ganzomilebebi axal xedvas Tu gulisxmobs, da

ara paralelur samyaros, xolo paraleluri samyaro Cvens

fizikur samyaroSi iseTive realuri da myaria, rogorc

Cveni da aranairad ar waagavs Tundac Zalian daSorebul

SesaZleblobas

brigita: iqneb swored Zalian daSorebulia da Cvengan

Zalian Sors swored is SesaZlebeli samyaro arsebobs,

romelic ar avirCieT? anu, rac ufro axloa, miT ufro

40

Soria – amitom Cvens uaxloes mezoblobaSi yvelaze

Soreuli SesaZleblobis samyaro mdebareobs..

tomi: eg lamazad gamoiyureba, magram Cvens daSvebaSi

mTavari swored isaa, rom yoveli arCevani

usasrulod bevr samyaroebSi unda moZraobdes, - am

samyaroSi avirCie marcxniv wasvla, sxva samyaroSi

marjvniv wavedi, kidec sxvaSi gavrCedi, kidev sxvaSi

miwaSi CavZveri, kidev sxvagan haerSi avxti da

davekide.. am samyaroebma SeiZleba erTmaneTi

gadakveTon, an daemTxven kidec – zogierT ramdenime

SemTxvevaSi. aseTi ram ki mecnierebis wignebSi ar

weria.

brigita: modi kidev erTxel aRvweroT, ra samyaroa

is, sadac Tavisufali nebaa SesaZlebeli

tomi: es aris samyaro, sadac usasrulod bevri

samyaroebi arsebobs da yvela am samyaroSi Cveni

arCevanis sxvadasxva gzaa ganxorcielebuli. es

warmoudgeneli erTianobaa, romelSic Cveni yoveli

arCevani da misi sapirispiro Tu masgan gansxvavebuli

gza ganxorcielebulia da aqtualurad arsebobs.

brigita: es warmoudgeneli da sulis SemxuTveli/gamxsneli,

es xom erTi da igivea, samyaroa. am samyaroebis ricxvis da

urTierTganlagebis warmodgenisas xvdebi, rom yvela

warmodgena imis mkrTali da uxeiro analogiaa, risi

warmodgenac ginda..

tomi: aq warmodgena nebdeba. es aris samyaros is cneba,

romlsac warmodgeniT ver igeb, da mxolod cnebebis

ganmartebis da urTierTqmedebiT unda dakmayofilde

brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom swored warmodgenis unaria,

romelic gaCvenebs samyaros am suraTis gansakuTrebulobas –

warmodgenis unari ukan ixevs rodesac Tundac sakuTari

Tavisufali nebis samyaroebis danaxvas daapireb, da saerTod

qreba, rodesac am samyaroebSi sxvisi Tavisufali nebis

arsebobas da misi samyaroebis simravles uSveb..

tomi: imisaTvis, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobdes, unda

arsebobdes usasrulod mravali realuri samyaro, sadac

Cemi ar arCeuli gzebi xorcieldeba yoveli konkretuli

arCevanis dros. eseigi, es samyaroebi unda arsebobdes iseve,

rogorc arsebobs is samyaro, romleSic Cven vcxovrobT..

41

brigita: da Tu isini arseboben, anu, arian ara

potenciurni aramed aqtualurni, sad SeiZleba iyos

maTi arseboba?

tomi: yovel SemTxvevaSi ara im samyaroSi, romlis

dakvirvebac da romlis Sesaxebac daskvnebis gakeTeba

SegviZlia

brigita: erTaderTi adgili da unari, romelic am

samyaroebs aqtualurad amyofebs, aqtualobis imave

xarisxiT, rogoric Cvenia, Tavisi sami, oTxi Tu

mravali ganzomilebiT, aris RmerTi

tomi: ai ase miviReT RmerTis dasabuTebis axali gza,

romelic dasabuTebisaTvis Tavisufali nebis

arsebobis daSvebas moiTxovs..

brigita: da moiTxovs or unars: rwmenis (ara

RmerTis) da msjelobis unarebs: rwmena imisa, rom

Tavisufali neba arsebobs, da aqedan gamomdinare –

daskvna, rom RmerTis arseboba aucilebelia, Tuki

Tavisufali neba arsebobs

tomi: es TiTqos advili daskvnaa, magram aqve

Semogveyreba sxva bevri kiTxva, Tundac, is, Zveli,

Sua saukuneobrivi, am SemTxvevaSi – aqvs Tu ara cxovels

Tavisufali neba?

brigita: erTi mxriv, Tu cxoveli arCevans akeTebs – maSin

ki. magram Cven saidan viciT rom cxovels SeuZlia arCevanis

gakeTeba? xom ar aris es arCevanis unari Cvens mier

miwerili misTvis?

tomi: meore mxriv, Tu ar viciT, arc SegviZlia darwmunebiT

vTqvaT, rom maT ara aqvT Tavisufali neba. anu, is, rom Cven

viciT, rom yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi cxovels SeuZlia

an es gaakeTos an is, migviTiTebs imas, rom cxovels

SeuZlia hqondes Tavisufali neba

brigita: magram Tu es “an es an is” im garemoTi aris

nakarnaxevi, romelSic is cxovrobs?

tomi: garemoTi?

brigita: ho, garemoTi – Tu cxoveli cxovrobs iseT

garemoSi, romelic imdenad ertymis mis yovel hipoTetur

saqciels, rom sxvanairi da ara amnairi moqmedeba marTlac

mxolod potenciaa da arc aqvs Sansi ramenairad iyos

aqtualuri

42

tomi: magram igive SegviZlia vTqvaT adamianzec:

SeiZleba adamianis garemo ise iyos mowyobili, rom

mxolod erTi qcevis ganxorcieleba iyos

SesaZlebeli, da sxva, paraleluri SesaZleblobebi

verc arsebobdnen im konkretuli garemosaTvis.

brigita: am SemTxvevaSi is xom fiqrobs mainc, rom

sxvanairad moqceva SeuZlia?

tomi: SeiZleba ifiqros, magram Tu aranairi realoba

amas ar miuTiTebs, maSic es mxolod fiqri da

iluzia iqneba.

brigita: isev iq davbrundiT, sadac Tavisufali nebis

SesaZleblobaze vlaparakobdiT..

tomi: me mainc mgonia, rom is sxva ambavi iyo. aq Cven

vambobT, rom miuxedavad imisa, rom Teoriulad

Tavisufali nebis arseboba iwvevs RmerTis arsebobas,

amave dros adaminma ise SeiZleba moawyos garemo, rom

masSi sxva SesaZleblobas ar hqondes adgili

brigita: anu, Tu Cven am mowyobaSi

institucionalizacias da kanonebiT Semofargvlas

vigulisxmebT, maSin sacodav Teorias miviRebT, rom adamiani

RmerTs TandaTan atovebinebs samyaros

tomi: ho, maSin RmerTi gamodis raRac gadaSenebis piras

misuli saxeobasaviT, romelic iseve idevneba Cveni

samyarodan, rogorc, magaliTad gepardi, an ixvniskarta..

brigita: eg igivea rac gamyarebis Teoriebi da raRac

evoluciuri ambebi

tomi: ho magram es xom logikuri daskvnaa – Tu adamini

istoriulad TviTonve SemoizRudavs Tavs wesebiT, romlis

mixedviTac mosalodneli qceva erTgvarovani xdeba, maSin

saxezea Tavisufali nebis, da Sesabamisad samyaroSi RmerTis

yofnis Semcirebaze mimarTuli moqmedeba

brigita: egec marTalia, TiTqos: yvelaferi – sportuli

TamaSi, saxelmwifo, ojaxi, dasasvenebeli parki – imas

miuTiTebs, rom Tavisufali neba lamis marto weraSi rCeba,

da Tu sxva Teoriebsac gaviTvaliswinebT, iqac ar rCeba,

imdenad didia gavlenebi da dublikaciebi

tomi: es logikuria, magram xom ar aris am logikaSi rame,

rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SeuZlebels xdis?

43

brigita: me mgoni piriqiT – logikaSi yvelaferia,

rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SesaZleblad da

realurad aqcevs. Tuki gvinda logikis komikurobas

Tavi davaRwioT, realobas unda mivmarToT da iq

vnaxoT, ra gamogvrCa realobis aRweraSi..

tomi: jer xom ar aRgviweria?

brigita: rogor ara – yvela Cveni debulebis ukan

aRwera dgas, Tanac sakmaod martivi..

tomi: magaliTad?

brigita: magaliTad, rodesdac vambobT, rom adamini

mimarTulia samyarodan RmerTis gadaSenebaze, maSin

vgulisxmobT, rom es adamini principulad

erTgvarovania, da es mimarTulobac – principulad

erTgarovani..

tomi: es xom marTlac asea..

brigita: jer ar damimTavrebia: es mimarTuloba

principulad erTgvarovanic rom iyos, ar niSnavs,

rom misi yoveli konkretuli gamovlenac

erTgvarovania. es ar niSnavs, rom Tu RmerTis

gadaSeneba mimdinareobs garkveul SemTxvevebSi, rom

es yvela SemTxvevis mimarT marTebulia. SeiZleba iyos erTi-

ori SemTxveva, rac am msjelobas daangrevs

tomi: ra SemTxveva, rodesac yoveli jgufi sakuTari

qcevebis gansazRvrazea mimarTuli, sulerTia iqneba es

platonis akademia, francisk asizelis ordeni Tu qurdebis

samyaro?

brigita: SemTxveva, rodesac konkretuli adamiani ar

miekuTvneba arc erT im jgufs, romlebic RmerTis

gadaSenebiT aris dakavebuli

tomi: im pirobis gaTvaliswinebiT, rom RmerTis gadaSeneba

yoveli arsebuli Tu moazrebuli jgufis xvedria?

brigita: im pirobiT

tomi: magram aseTi adamiani xom Zalian iSviaTi iqneba –

mxolod da mxolod gamonaklisebi, romlebic ar Cajdebian

arc erTi jgufis sazRvrebSi da mudmiv revolucias

mihyofen xels Tu mudmiv mojanyeebad gadaiqcevian

brigita: ara mgonia.. saqme imaSia, rom es albaT yvelaze

didi umsjelobaa, rom adamianebi erT, an ramdenime

gansazRvrul jgufs ekuTvnian. maT goniaT rom isini

mxolod erT jgufs ekuTvnian. sinamdvileSi – sasacilo

44

sityvaa ara am laparakisas – sinamdvileSi isini

Segnebulad mxolod erT, an ramdenime jgufTan

aigiveben sakuTar Tavs, anu, isini Segnebulad rTaven

sakuTar Tavs mxolod gansazRvrul jgufSi..

tomi: anu, maTi damokidebuleba im jgufebTan

mxolod RirebulebiTia, mxolod SefasebiTi?

brigita: aba ra. mxolod Rirebuleba da Sefasebaa

kriteriumi, romlis mixedviTac sakuTar

TviTidentifikacias axden literaturul kafesTan da

literaturul klubTan da ara mawvnis rigSi

mdgomebTan, arada, met dros SeiZleba mawvnis rigSi

atarebde da ara kafeSi. rom gamogikvlion, SeiZleba

mawvnis rigSi ufro meti Cvevebi da

msoflmxedvelobrivi unarebi SegiZenia, vidre kafeSi,

is Cvevebi, Sen rom kafeSi/klubSi SeZenili ggonia

tomi: eg xom snobizmis gamo xdeba?

brigita: ara, es xdeba martivi ramis gamo: Sen sadac

ginda iq unda iyo, magram Seni survili arafer SuaSi

ar aris imasTan rac xar

tomi: aqedan rasizmamze mivalT: Sen ginda germaneli iyo da

ar xar, imitom rom bebiaSeni frangi iyo

brigita: es utrirebaa. Sen mier dasaxelebul SemTxvevaSi

germaneloba realobaa, uaris Tqma ki Sefaseba. Sen

realobisadmi – germanelobisadmi kuTvnilebas acxadeb. mere

viRac ki modis da gafasebs, rom Sen cdebi da sinamdvileSi

_ isev es sityva – sxva, ufro dabali donis xar. im

SemTxvevaSi me rom aRvwere, Sen afaseb – rom germaneli xar

– da sxva modis da geubneba, rom Sen amave dros frangic

xar

tomi: ese igi, rasizmis SemTxvevaSi Sen realobas

upirispireb Sefasebas, xolo Sens moyolil SemTxvevaSi –

Sefasebas realobas

brigita: xo, iq gakleben, aq umateb.. reaqcia ki orive

SemTxvevaSi erTnairi SeiZleba iyos – maSinac roca

germanelad yofnas gikrZalaven, da maSinac rodesac

geubnebian rom Sen ufro meti xar, vidre mxolod

germaneli..

tomi: esec utrirebaa, me xom ar veubnebi rom is metia, me

mas aRvwer, rogorc ufro mets

45

brigita: saqmec magaSia, rom me ki aRvwer mas,

rogorc ufro mets, magram amave dros veubnebi

kidec, mivuTiTeb mis umsjelobaze

tomi: veubnebi, rom sinamdvileSi Sen ufro meti xar,

vidre Sens (an babuaSens) mier mogonili CarCo

brigita: babuaSeni utrirebaa, lamis sagvareulos de-

apologizacias mivadeqiT.. magram sinamdvileSi ufro

meti xar, vidre ggonia an warmogidgenia, anu, isev

warmoudgenlamde mivediT, iqamde, rasac veRar

warmovidgenT da mxolod aRwera SegviZlia

tomi: anu, Cven ki ara, institutebi gadaaSeneben

RmerTs,

brigita: iseve, rogorc Cven ki ara, kaSxlebi Rupaven

ekosistemas, anda, atomuri bombebi afeTqeben da

aavadeben, da ara Cven,

tomi: es bolo Sedareba me mgoni mTlad zusti ar

unda iyos..

brigita: feministuria

tomi: da ara marto.. es aris adaminis tragediis

safuZveli – es aris mudmivi tkivili, romelsac

Cven, adaminebi ganvicdiT, rodesac vqmniT iseT raimes rac

RmerTis gadaSenebas iwvevs da amaSia swored Cveni

dawyevlilobac da madlic..

brigita: nu Radaob

tomi: ratomac ara, me mgoni aqamde mivediT, Tumca ara.. jer

bolo varianti ar mogviZebnia

brigita: ho, ramdenime striqonis win isev warmoudgenel

warmosaxulamde mivediT, roca vcdilobdiT RmerTi

gadaSenebisagan gadagverCina..

tomi: Sen ar Tqvi, movrCeT Radavs

brigita: kargi – bolos gavCerdiT iq, sadac vTqviT, rom

miuxedavad imisa, rom RmerTi struqturebSi da

institutebSi aRar aris, is mainc SeiZleba iyos am

institutebs Soris

tomi: anu, Tu Cven RmerTis mibaZvas movaxdenT da iseve

vimoZravebT institutebs Soris rogorc RmerTi SesaZlebel

samyaroebs Soris

brigita: oRond im gansxvavebiT, rom RmerTi Wverets? …. .. .

. . .

46

tomi: da im daSvebiT rom Cvenc vWvretT, Tu magrebi

varT, magram amave dros vmoZraobT am samyaroebSi

brigita: iseve, rogorc RmerTi moZraobs yvela im

samyaroSi romlebic masSia, maT Soris Cven

samyaroSic

tomi: da es aris swored RmerTis wvdoma –

erTaderTi SesaZlebeli rac SegviZlia

brigita: anu, es aris erTaderTi instituti,

romelic ki ar aqrobs, aramed inarCunebs RmerTs da

sakuTar TavSi Semohyavs. ki ar aqrobs SesaZlebeli

ganviTarebebis Semcirebis gziT, aramed SesaZlebels

xdis usasrulod bevr mikro samyaroSi imogzauro,

rodesac erTaderTi SezRudva Senive sicocxlea.

tomi: ara mgonia, mogzaurebi yvelaze axlos iyvnen

RmerTTan. ara mgonia, yovel SemTxvevaSi, yvela ara:

iseTi mogzauri, romelsac Tan daaqvs Tavisi samyaro,

rogorc lokokinas niJara – albaT ara. sivrceSi

gadaadgileba ver Seqmnis samyaroebSi mogzaurobas.

ufro piriqiT – rac ufro migewebeba niJara, miT

ufro gadaaSeneb RmerTs.

brigita: ho, Tu mogzauroba is wesia, romelSic cxovrob,

marTalia. magram Tu mogzauroba aris saSualeba sxvadasxva

socialur jgufSi icxovro, maSin ki.

tomi: ho, magram yvelaze maRali pilotaJi iqneba adamiani,

romelic adgilidan ar iZvris da ise icvlis samyaroebs

brigita: anu?

tomi: anu, adgilze yofniT – SeiZleba es adgilze yofna

metafora iyos, da ara lotosis pozaSi jdoma – is

axerxebs bevr samyaroSi moxvedras, sakuTar Tavze

sxvadasxva msoflmxedvelobebis da samyaros aRqmebis

mozomebiT

brigita: raRac sasacilo traqtati gamogvdis

tomi: marTali xar, modi sxvebma daweron es traqtatic da

sxvebic, Cvens magivrad, Cven ufro saintereso saqmeebs

mivxedoT

brigita: ho, magram ori sityva mainc unda vTqvaT aqedan

gamomdinare mistikaze

tomi: me mgoni ukve vTqviT

brigita: rodis?

47

tomi: cota xnis – kinaRam striqoni ar vTqvi –

cota xnis win, rodesac adgilze dgomaze vambobdi

raRacas

brigita: da es yvelaferi Cvens yoveldRiurobaSi

rom gadavitanoT?

tomi: anu, Cvens garemoSi da vTqvaT rogor aris

SesaZlebeli mistikuri gamocdileba?

brigita: ki magram, Cveni dialogis mizani sul sxva

iyo, da kidev erTi Tema CavtenoT SigniT?

tomi: iqneb mainc vcadoT

brigita: mkiTxveli aireva

tomi: ara mgonia, iqneb odnav mainc mogvexaza, ra

elodeba adamians Cvens garemoSi mistikur

gamocdilebasTan Sexebisas

brigita: kargi, modi SevexoT

tomi: Sen daiwyeb?

brigita: rogorc ginda

tomi: modi me daviwyeb, mainc rolebi isea

ganawilebuli

brigita: kargi, oRond marto zedapirulad, Rrmad ar unda

Sexvide

tomi: vici, isedac sul zRvarze ar davdivarT

brigita: Tu vwevarT

tomi: rogorc aris. Tumca, axla vifiqre

brigita: ifiqre?

tomi: ho. axla vifiqre – Rirs ki saerTod Tanamedrove

mistikur gamocdilebaze laparaki? mistika, iseve rogorc

sxva raRaceebi, imdenad universitetizirebuli da

institucionalizebulia, rom mistikaze verc vilaparakebT

brigita: xom SevTanxmdiT, rom RmerTi gadaSenebis pirasaa

ukve miyvanili sasrulganzomilebian sivrceebSi, anu, im

sivrceebSi, sadac SesaZlebeli moqmedebebis zRvruli

raodenobaa daSvebuli

tomi: maSin moraluri qmedeba da mistikuri qmedeba erTi da

igive xom ar gamodis – Seni garemos SesaZlebeli

moqmedebebis usasrulo arenad gadaqceva

brigita: waagavs, magram moraluri qmedeba gasvlis da

gadasvlis qmedebaa, rodesac Sen ar Cerdebi erT SesaZlebel

48

samyaroSi/jgufSi da moZraob. rodesac mistikuri

qmedeba sakuTari Tavis gamravleba unda iyos –

gasvlis gareSe

tomi: rogorc moraluri qmedebis yvelaze ufro

radikaluri gamoxatva?

brigita: ho. sakuTari pirovnebis gamravleba

adgilidan daZvris da mogzaurobis gareSe –

mogzauroba ra Tqma unda RmerTis wvdomis gzaa,

magram es mogzauroba socialuri adgilis

gamoucvlelad ganicado - ufro rTulia

tomi: anu, ki ar unda icvalo adgilebi da

socialuri rolebi, aramed iseT mdgomareobas

miaRwio, rom sakuTari Tavis usasulod gamravleba

SegeZlos – rogorc RmerTs. Tumca, RmerTis mimarT

es ar unda iyos mTlad swori gansazRvreba, es ufro

Cveni zRvruli mdgomareobis gansazRvrebaa, zRvari,

romelSic SeiZleba RmerTad yofna SeigrZno,

maqsimalurad daemsgavso RmerTs

brigita: isev warmoudgenlamde mivediT

tomi: ara, jer ar mivsulvarT

brigita: maSin socialuri adgilidan dauZvrelad sakuTari

Tavis gamravlebis SesaZlebloba maCvene

tomi: es is viTarebaa, rodesac erT adgilas yofniT da Seni

rolis SesrulebiT Sen cnobierad asruleb sxva rolebs, da

cdilob rolebis maqsimalurad didi raodenoba moicva

brigita: Tu es formulireba sworia, aucileblad unda

iyos misi sarkiseburi anarekli, romelic sruliad sxvas

sCadis

tomi: da aris kidec: adamini, romelsac instituciur

sxeulSi garkveuli adgili da funqcia gaaCnia da arafers

ar akeTebs

brigita: Tumca, es arafris keTebac SeiZleba garkveuli

mdgomareoba iyos, romelsac mistikis enaze sakuTari Tavis

waSla SeiZleba davarqvaT

tomi: marTali xar, es ar gamodgeba sakuTari Tavis

gamravlebis anareklad

brigita: anareklad gamodgeba adamiani, romelic mimdevrobiT

akeTebs sxvadasxva moqmedebebs, ise, rom Tavisi adgilis

Sesabamis moqmedebas ar axorcielebs

49

tomi: albaT. usaqmurebi arian mistikuri praqtikis

ganmaxorcieleblis anareklebi

brigita: anareklebi, erT-erTi SesaZlebli samyaro,

romelic mistikis praqtikaSi erT-erT samyarod

iqceva. meore mxriv, Tuki Tanamedrove, erTaderT

SesaZlebel mistikur gamocdilebas – sakuTari Tavis

gamravlebas – mivubrundebiT, miviRebT, rom Tuki es

gamocdileba adgilis dakavebasTanaa dakavSirebuli,

erTaderTi mistikuri gamocdileba, romelic

SesaZlebelia, administraciuli yofila, Tuki

gaviTvaliswinebT im srul da zRvramde miyvanil

institucionalizacias, Cveni samyaro rom xasiaTdeba.

tomi: kidev erTi mniSvnelovani daskvna: yvelafers

aqvs misi momijnave SesaZlebeli ganxorcieleba.

mxolod amiT SeiZleba aixsnas gmirebis moRalateebad

da moRalateebis mkvlevarebad interpretacia.

SeiZleba warmoudgeneli azri SevimuSaoT, romlis

mixedviTac interpretatori, romelic istoriuli

kvlevis, an oratori, winadadebebis formebis

saSualebiT, gmirs moRalated, an sulac Cveulebriv

mokvdavad aqcevs, amiT RmerTs baZavs – eZebs im potenciur

samyaros, sadac gmiris SesaZlebeli moqmedeba Ralatad

iqceva da mis ganxorcielebas iwyebs.

brigita: igivea aRmoCenis da plagiatis, siyvarulis da

Ralatis, daxmarebis da gulgrilobis SemTxvevebSi.

tomi: ki magram eseni xom opoziciebi arian?

brigita: albaT mxolod Cvens warmodgenebSi. opozicia aris

warmodgenis is bolo instancia, romelsac Cveni goneba

mimarTavs arsebulis warmosadgenad.

tomi: iseve, rogorc Cveni saubris es bolo, da albaT

mTlinad saubaric, sul advilad daiyvaneba

mravalsazrisianobis da mravalinterpretaciis

SesaZleblobis mouxeSav gamoTqmaze

brigita: anu, rom arc araferi gviTqvams

tomi: arc vapirebdiT raimes Tqmas.

aq da dRes

volandi: rogor unda vimoqmedo, Cemi moqmedeba

universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces?

50

berliozi: universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces

ki ara, ise unda imoqmedo, rom amave dros gindodes,

rom Seni moqmedeba samyaros mowyobis universaluri

wesi gaxdes

volandi: Sen saidan ici?

berliozi: mec maqvs raRac wignebi wakiTxuli

volandi: mere, cota sasacilo ar aris eg ambavi?

berliozi: romeli?

volandi: ai, morali, wesi, romlis mixedviTac roca

vmoqmedeb, sul unda maxsovdes, rom ra moxdeba, Tu

es moqmedeba samyaros mowyobas daedeba safuZvlad

berliozi: ratomaa sasacilo?

volandi: imitom, rom aqedan gamodis, rom me Tu vici

samyaros mowyobis universaluri wesi, maSin vici

rogor unda vimoqmedo da Sesabamisad, sul aRar

mWirdeba raRaceebze vifiqro da vzomo da vwono

berliozi: ra unda wono?

volandi: ai, moxucs rom aqvs – Tavi ar unda

movikla, imotom, rom Tu warmovidgen, rom yvelam

unda moiklas Tavi, roca gamouval mdgomareobaSi

iqneba, maSin es ar ivargebs samyaros kanonad da amitom uars

vityvi TviTmkvlelobaze

berliozi: hoo, eg moxuci meore moxucs ar icnobda,

asiode wlis Semdeg rom dawera didi traqtati, sadac

ambobs, rom SeiZleba iseTi samyaro arsebobdes, sadac

TviTmkvleloba cxovrebis wesia

volandi: xo, magram yvelanairi TviTmkvleloba ara – marto

altruistuli – Tavis gawirva da rame

berliozi: moica, avtorma xom sul daabnia mkiTxveli –

pirvel moxucSi xom kanti igulisxmeba

volandi: meoreSi ki durkhaimi

berliozi: unda vTqvaT, Torem vin gaagrZelebs kiTxvas

volandi: me mgoni arc amis mere moiklaven Tavs

berliozi: sul nu dakargav imeds, ase TviTmkvlelobamdec

mixval

volandi: aq?

berliozi: ho

volandi: aba rogor

berliozi: ai

volandi: ra?

51

volandi: ra iyo?

volandi: sad gaqri?

volandi: sad xar?

volandi: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

berliozi: ra iyo, SegeSinda? ai Tu ar aris

SesaZlebeli aq Tavis mokvla

volandi: aranairi efeqti ar mouxdenia, me rom

viyvire, avtorma mayvira, Torem ise ra – Sen

ubralod gaCumdi

berliozi: Sen ambob rom aq gaCumeba Tavis mokvlis

tolfasi ar aris?

volandi: ra Tqma unda ara. Tavi rom moikla, aq

veRar unda dabrunde, an avtori gaxde, an sxva vinme,

tani unda moipovo, rac SeuZlebelia. es ki ra aris

– gaCumdi da mere daiwye laparaki

berliozi: sul unda gavqre?

volandi: ho, rac SenTvis da CemTvis SeuZlebelia –

avtorze varT damokidebulebi, da Tu unda gagvaCumebs, Tu

unda agvalaparakebs

berliozi: Tavis mokvla mogindeba kacs.. kargi, davbrundeT

moxucebTan – sasaciloao ambobdi

volandi: xo, imas vambobdi, rom me Tu darwmunebuli var

rom vici, rogor da ra principebze agebulia samyaro?

magaliTad arsebobisaTviso brZolaze, maSin?

berliozi: maSin ra?

volandi: maSin yvela Cemi moqmedeba arsebobisaTvis brZoliT

iqneba gansazRvruli da albaT, sul ar iqneba iseTi

moraluri, kants rom warmoaedgina

berliozi: iqneb sxva rames gulisxmobda?

volandi: Tu gulisxmobda, daewera

berliozi: egre advili ki ar iyo im dros – dawero rasac

gulisxmob – mTli tomi unda dagewera imisaTvis, rasac

fiqrobdi rom dagesabuTebina

volandi: me mgoni mainc sxva rames gulisxmobda – me romc

vicode, rom samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa, iqneb

ar mindodes, rom arsebobisaTvis brZolaSi momklan?

52

berliozi: SeiZleba Zalian Zlieri xar da arc

fiqrob, rom mogklaven. piriqiT, darwmunebuli xar,

rom yvelas moerevi. Tanac, iseTi ganaTleba gaqvs

miRebuli, romlis mixedviTac utyuarad ici, rom

samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa

volandi: maSin Segisrulebia moxucis moraluri

moTxovna. kantis dros skolebSi samyaros mowyobis

principebs ar aswavlidnen

berliozi: aswavlidnen, magram maSin samyaros

mowyobis ZiriTadi principi moraluri iyo

volandi: amitom, sruliad mosalodneli iyo, rom

kantis droindeli adamiani samyaros mowyobis

ZiriTad principze Tu ifiqrebda, arsebuli da

naswavli warmoudgeboda cxvirwin

berliozi: kargi, imaze raRas ityvi – adamianoba

mizani rom unda iyos?

volandi: me Tu kanibali var? Tu Cemi miTologia

meubneba, rom saukeTeso rac SemiZlia gavukeTo

mters – misi guli SevWamo, rom misma arsebam CemSi

gaagrZelos cxovreba?

berliozi: ise, rom icode, kantis wesebi mainc dasavluri

civilizaciisaTvisaa, rogorSic cxovrobda da rogorSic

warmoedgina

volandi: ara mgonia – is iseT wesebs eZebda, yvela

SemTxvevisaTvis rom iqnebodnen gamosadegni

berliozi: mere ar gamouvida

volandi: arc egre ar unda iyos saqme – Tu ase SevxedavT -

gulisxmobda kanti im Tavis universalur wesSi, rom yvela

unda asrulebdes am wess?

berliozi: maSin, im Cveni magaliTis Sinaarsi ra unda iyos?

minda Tu ara, rom yvela iyos mzad Tavis gawirvisaTvis ama

da am SemTxvevaSi?

volandi: ho..

berliozi: maSin gamova rom minda – rom yvela mzad iyos

Tavis gawirvisaTvis garkveul SemTxvevebSi, Tan kenisbergel

moxucs sityvaze nu daviWerT. ra icoda, rom parizeli

moxuci Tavganwirvas TviTmkvlelobaSi gaiyvanda

volandi: marTalia, magram aq meore ambavia

berliozi: ra ambavi?

53

volandi: me mTeli rigi codnebi unda mqondes

imisaTvis, rom moralurad moviqce

berliozi: ratom?

volandi: imitom, rom unda vicode ra aris samyaro,

misi mowyoba, universaluri wesi da bolos da

bolos – elementaruli warmosaxva unda mqondes

berliozi: imisaTvis, rom Seni moqmedeba

warmosaxviTi samyaros arsebobis universalur wesad

warmoidgino?

volandi: ho

berliozi: maSin ra gamodis – mxolod garkveuli

ganaTlebis mqone adamianebs SeuZliaT iyvnen

moralurebi da amoralurebi?

volandi: ase gamodis – principSi – asecaa, Seni

saqcielis moraluroba/amoralurobis Sesaxeb kiTxva

xom maSin giCndeba, raRac ganaTleba rom gaqvs da

amave dros - warmoadgena moralurze da amoralurze

berliozi: an, igive kiTxva giCndeba Tu raimes

miRweva ginda – raimes gamorCenis mizniT

volandi: eg xom erTi da igivea

berliozi: kargi, egre iyos, magram eg xom ar cvlis

ZiriTad problemas – mxolod Zalian cota adamians – maT

saerTo raodenobasTan SedarebiT – uCndeba kiTxvebi

moralurobis Sesaxeb

volandi: kiTxvebic da pasuxebic

berliozi: ho, xoda Tu cota adamins uCndeba – xom ar

aris es samyaro ZirSive da potenciurad amoraluri?

volandi: albaT ara, imitom, rom am samyaros mowyobis wesi

swored im adamianebis xelSia, visac SeiZleba gauCndes

kiTxva moraluroba-amoralurobis Sesaxeb

berliozi: anu – marto mmarTvelebi da politikosebi?

volandi: ara – maTi ricxvi ufro metia – faqtiurad yvela

ganaTlebuli adamiani – romlebic swavloben, aswavlian,

marTaven da ase Semdeg

berliozi: magram me ra garantia maqvs, rom es adamianebi

sworad aswavlian, an moralurobis swored aseT, an msgavs

formulebs atareben?

volandi: ra Tqma unda ara gvaqvs garantia, magram meore

mxriv, aq TviTgadarCenis da TviTSenarCunebis faqtorebi

erTvebian

54

berliozi: rogor?

volandi: ai rogor – Tuki Sen raRac mcire gagaCnia

– sul erTia es Seni qoneba materialuria Tu

simboluri, Sen yovelTvis Seecdebi iseTi wesebi

SemoiRo, rom SenTvis am sakuTrebis warTmeva rTuli

aRmoCndes. Sesabamisad, sabolood mixval iqamde, rom

SenTvisac rTuli aRmoCndeba sxvisTvis raime

sakuTrebis warTmeva

berliozi: Zalian utilitaruli da merkantiluri

axsnaa

volandi: aranairad – sinamdvileSi

berliozi: ras CaveWideT am sityvas

volandi: sinamdviles?

berliozi: ho

volandi: ra Cveni bralia

berliozi: ra vici, ra vici

volandi: hoda imas geubnebodi, sinamdvileSi, ase rom

vxsniT maSin gamoiyureba cota zedmetad

merkantilurad, Tore ise – es iseTive kacobriobaze

zrunvaa, moxuci rom ambobda

berliozi: anu, aseTi moqmedebebis, im SemTxvevaSic ki, Tu

Sen mxolod sakuTari qonebis dacvaze xar orientirebuli,

saboloo mizani kacobriobaa?

volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki Sen moindomeb rom marto Sen

ki ar icavde Sens sakuTrebas, aramed, sxvac icavdes, maSinac,

rodesac Sen amis Tavi an dro ar geqneba

berliozi: maSin, gamodis rom rac ar unda ifiqros vinmem

da sakuTari kapitalis SenarCunebaze izrunos, sabolood

mainc mivalT iseT wesebamde, romelic samyaros mowyobis

universalur wesad gamodgeba?

volandi: ho, magram es droSi Zalian gawelili procesia

berliozi: da realurad SeiZleba ar moxdes an Zalian

cota SemTxvevaSi moxdes?

volandi: ho. magram meore mxriv – ganaTleba iseTi

bunebisaa, rom misma mimRebma ukve icis meore mxare – anu,

misTvis ukve cnobilia samyaros mowyoba – ra xifaTebi da

sargeblebi elodeba da vin arian im samyaroSi, romlSic is

cxovrebas apirebs

berliozi: albaT, ganaTlebis yvelaze ufro mniSvnelovani

Sedegi aris is, rom misma mimRebma icis, rom samyaros

55

mowyobas safuZvled Tanasworoba udevs. ase aris

yvela saganmanaTleblo sistemaSi da nebismieri

ganaTleba – iqneba es sabrZolo xelovnebebis

swavleba Tu literaturis, am ideas efuZneba

volandi: raRac Zalian gawele

berliozi: me ufro mokled mindoda, magram am dros

avtori CaerTo da raRaceebi daamata

volandi: hoda ra gindoda mokled geTqva?

berliozi: is, rom ganaTlebis universaluri Sedegi

aris imis Canergva rom Sens garda sxva Sennairebic

arseboben da principulad Sens da maT Soris

gansxvaveba ar aris

volandi: eg raRac ucnauri Tqvi – libertaniul

ferebSi..

berliozi: sulac ara – da swored es aris Cvens

samyaroSi moralis safuZveli – nebismieri adamiani

nebismier socialur garemoSi raRacnair ganaTlebas

yovelTvis iRebs, Sesabamisad, is yovelTvis iRebs

imis sarwmuno mtkicebas, rom mis garda misnairebi

kidev arseboben da is ar unda elodos, rom es misnairebi

erT mSvenier dRes gaqrebian

volandi: anu, is iRebs codnas im realobis Sesaxeb

romelSic is cxovrobs da romelic principulad misnairi

arsebebiT arian dasaxlebulebi

berliozi: da Sesabamisad, rac ar unda diskriminaciuli

ganaTleba miiRo, am ganaTlebiT iReb utyuar codnas sxva

Sennairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb

volandi: Tu ganaTleba kasturia?

berliozi: kasturi ganaTleba gimtkicebs da gaswavlis

Sens gansxvavebulobas da aRmatebuloba/damcirebulobas

volandi: ki magram, isec xom SeiZleba SevxedoT, rom me

Cemniarebis arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ganaTlebis gareSec

maqvs

berliozi: Cemnairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ki maqvs

ganaTlebis gareSe, magram Cveni erTnairobis Sesaxeb codna –

mxolod ganaTlebiT Semodis CemSi – imdenad, ramdenadac

ganaTleba me maswavlis gansxvavebas da sxvebze warmatebis

mopovebas, is amiT me maswavlis, rom sxvebi principiulad

Cemnairebi arian. da Tu es ar viswavle rasac maswavlian –

56

magaliTad, brZola - ver movipoveb im

gansxvavebulobas, rac mekuTvnis - dabadebiT an

jadosnurad

volandi: anu, yvelanairi ganaTlebis safuZveli aris

is, rom adamianebi erTnairebi arian da amitom

yvelanairi ganaTlebis Sedegi sabolood erTi da

igivea – samyaros iseTi mowyobis SemuSaveba,

romelic am adamianebis erTnairobas iTvaliswinebs

berliozi: ho, gamodis, rom adamianis arseboba

Tavisi arsiT moraluri kiTxvebis dasmiskenaa

mimarTuli – mTavaria vin da rogor scems am

kiTxvaze pasuxs

volandi: anu, yvela adamiani, Tundac yvelaze

primitiuli tomis wevri iyos, Tavisi moqmedebiT

scems pasuxs kiTxvas, Tu rogor unda iyos samyaro

mowyobili

berliozi: rac exla Tqvi, erTis mxriv yvelas

moraluri pasuxismgeblobis aRiarebaa, magram meore

mxriv – yvelas da yovelis pasuxismgeblobis

gaTanabreba

volandi: an gaTanabreba, an raRac jgufis gamoyofa da masze

dawola – es aseTi azrovnebis aucilebeli Sedegia –

Tavidan gvegona rom kenisbergeli moxucis naTqvami marto

evropel adamians exeboda da albaT, qedmarluriao,

vfiqrobdiT, exla mivediT daskvnamde, rom yvelas exeba da

amitom – principSi susti moTxovnaa, bevrs arafers

gavaldebulebs

berliozi: marTalia – me yoveldRiurobaSi is ki ar

mainteresebs, Teoriulad var Tu ara pasuxismgebli Cems

moqmedebebze aramed is, Tu rogor unda moviqce

volandi: hoo, mag kiTxvaze pasuxs raRac davSordiT

berliozi: ho, davSordiT da exla isev unda davubrundeT

– albaT – im ori ZiriTadi ganwyobidan unda amovideT,

moralur qmedebas rom udevs safuZvlad

volandi: romeli im oridan?

berliozi: es sakmaod martivi oria – pirveli – ar unda

elodo jildos moralurad qcevisaTvis da meore – ar unda

moaxdino Seni saqcielis afiSireba-

reklamireba'gamoaSkaraveba

57

volandi: eg xom ar niSnavs, rom saerTod ar unda

elodo jildos – magaliTad simdidres?

berliozi: ara, Tumca xSirad ase esmodaT – me ki

mgonia, rom Seni saqcielis moralurobis gamo ar

unda elodo jildos, Torem saqcielis yvela sxva

mxare jildovdeba, ganisjeba da ganikiTxeba

volandi: da meore pirvelidan xom ar gamomdinareobs

– rom Seni moraluri saqcielis Sesaxeb aravin ar

unda icodes, an aravis ar unda Seatyobino, an ise

unda moiqce, rom principulad veravin gaigos –

moraluri saqcieli maSinaa moraluri, rodesac is

ar xdeba gansjis sagani da amitom, principulad

SeuZlebelia rom dajildovdes

berliozi: idealuri danaSaulis aRweramde xom ar

mivediT?

volandi: albaT ara – jildos principuli

SeuZlebloba idealur danaSaulTan kavSirs

gamoricxavs – sxva mxriv ki marTali xar – emTxveva

berliozi: struqturalistebs gauxardebaT – yvelaze

amoralur da moralur saqciels struqturulad rom

erTniarad rom vaxasiaTebT

volandi: ho da albaT amitom gvgonia me da Sen rom es

gansazRvra sworia – iseve rogorc didi siyvarulis da

didi siZulvilis, nebismieri mZafri da Zlieri

dapirispirebulebis gansazRvrebisas

berliozi: eg yvelaferi kargi, magram es mainc ar maZlevs

imis codnas, Tu rogor unda moviqce me, konkretuli

adamiani

volandi: Zalianac nu daiCemeb konkretulobas

berliozi: kargi, saxeli xom maqvs da konkretul adaminze

xom mivuTiTeb mainc

volandi: kargi, nu gabrazdi, vixumre

berliozi: ar gavbrazebulvar, gaaWira am avtorma saqme

volandi: kargi, davubrundeT Cveni qcevis sakiTxs

berliozi: kargi. hoda, Tu qcevis sakiTxs vubrundebiT,

jer unda gavigoT, an odnav mainc unda SevexoT Tu rogor

aris mowyobili Cveni samyaro

volandi: ratom?

58

berliozi: aba rogor unda davadginoT jildoebis

da saidumlod Senaxvis ambavi?

volandi: marTali xar. uamisod davrCebiT zogadi

frazebis amara da veravisac ver vetyviT,

konkretulad rogori unda iyos qceva am samyaroSi

berliozi: arada, yvela am didi da zogjer

bundovani azrebis ukan dgas survili icode Tu

rogor unda moiqce am samyaroSi

volandi: marTali xar – ai Tundac – erTi

ingliseli rom Seecada Cveni Tavisufleba sityvebis

da gamoTqmebis analizidan gamoeyvana

berliozi: mere gamouvida?

volandi: TiTqos gamouvida, magram ara mgonia amis

Semdeg mas Tavi ufro Tavisuflad egrZno

berliozi: modi isev Tavidan daviwyoT

volandi: ara

berliozi: ratom ara?

volandi: kiTxvas Tavs daanebeben

berliozi: Tu ucbad vizamT, ara mgonia

volandi: kargi, vcadoT

berliozi: kargi. isev unda dagisva kiTxva – zemoT ar

davamTavreT amaze pasuxis gacema – Cveni saqcielis dayofa

SesaZlebelia moralurad da aramoralurad, Tu Cvens yovel

saqciels aqvs moraluri mxare, nawili?

volandi: albaT ufro meore – Cvens yovel saqcielSi aris

mxare, romelic moraluroba-amoralurobas gansazRvravs,

amitom yvela saqcieli aris moraluri an amoraluri

berliozi: yvela?

volandi: Cais daleva albaT ara

berliozi: albaT arc quCaSi siaruli

volandi: gadawyvetilebis miRebasTan xom ar aris

dakavSirebuli?

berliozi: principSi, gadawyvetilebas Cais dalevis drosac

xom iReb

volandi: hoo

berliozi: maSin rogor unda vTqvaT? jildos miReba-

armiRebis survilze rom davideT, maSin xom SeiZleba,

viRaca borotebas imitom sCadis, rom ase unda da sul ar

elodeba jildos miRebas?

59

volandi: egec SesaZlebelia, marTalia, ZiriTadaT

literaturaSi

berliozi: magram Cvenc xom aqa varT

volandi: egecaa

berliozi: maSin ra gamodis – moralur saqciels

srulad ver ganvsazRvravT verc jildos miReba-

armiRebis surviliT, verc gadawyvetilebis miRebis

saerTo foniT, verc samyaros mowyobis wesebis

codniT, verc surviliT, rom Sens saqcielSi

Cadebuli wesebis mixedviT moewyos samyaro..

volandi: ase rom vcadoT – yvelaferi erTad rom

iyos ganmsazRvreli, maSin ra gamova?

berliozi: yelaferi erTad? aba vnaxoT: unda moiqce

ise, rom ar unda gindodes Seni saqcielis Sedegad

jildo miiRo

volandi: Tumca ase SeiZleba moxdes da es ar niSnavs

rom Seni saqcieli post-faqtum xdeba amoraluri

berliozi: nu mawyvetineb – amave dros unda moiqce

ise, rom Seni qceva SenTvis cnobil samyaros

mowyobis wess emTxveodes

volandi: im SemTxvevaSic, Tu SenTvis cnobili wesi Sorsaa

Seni yofiTi warmodgenebidan: magaliTad, ici, rom im

samyaroSi, romelSic cxovrob, yovelTvis boroteba

imarjvebs. am SemTxvevaSi, Tu Sen borotebas exmarebi, maSin,

gamodis rom jildosaTvis moqmedeb, rac wina debulebas

ewinaamRdegeba

berliozi: nu mawyvetineb meTqi

volandi: kargi, gaagrZele

berliozi: da mesame – ar unda moaxdino Seni saqcielis

manifestacia

volandi: Tu es moxda – rac xdeba xolme, ar niSnavs, rom

am SemTxvevaSic Seni saqcieli post faqtum xdeba

amoraluri

berliozi: maSasadame, ra miviReT – moraluri moqmedebaa

rodesac iqcevi erTsa da imave dros - samyaros mowyobis

wesis mixedviT, ar elodebi jildos Seni saqcielisaTvis da

ar axdeb Seni saqcielis manifestacias.

volandi: Tumca, am Seni saqcielisaTvis SeiZleba jildoc

miiRo da manifestaciac moxdes, gaSuqdes televiziebSi da

gazeTebSi da ase Semdeg

60

berliozi: miiRo premiebi da mogebebi aqciebidan..

volandi: Tundac

berliozi: erTi daskvnac – am SemTxvevaSi yoveli

kokretuli saqcielis gazomva SeuZlebeli xdeba –

mxolod Senzea damokidebuli ramdenad CaTvli

sakuTar saqciels moralurobis sferoSi Sesulad da

sabolood, ramdenad moralurad an amoralurad

moiqcevi

volandi: mokled, am sami principis erTianoba

geubneba, rom Seni codna samyaros Sesaxeb ar unda

gamoiyeno Seni piradi sargeblis mosapoveblad,

Tumca, ar gamoricxavs imas, rom Seni codna Sen

sargebels mogapovebinebs da sabolood gagamdidrebs

berliozi: es daskvna ki miviReT bevri gverdi

msjelobis Sedegad, amgram iseTi gansakuTrebuli ra

aris amaSi? ase Tu ise yvela, vinc eTikurobaze da

moralurobaze fiqrobs, ase iqceva

volandi: egec marTalia, magram Cven es yvelaferi

gvinda imisaTvis, rom Cvens samyaroSi qcevis

moraluri gza davadginoT, da ara imitom, rom yvela drois

da sivrcis universaluri wesi movigonoT

berliozi: arc sxvebi igonebdnen, magram.. kargi, gaagrZele

volandi: ise, meoTxe dagvaviwyda – principuli

gauzomveloba – anu, Tuki Sen gaqvs sarwmuno saSualebebi

imisaTvis, rom gazomo sxvisi moraluri an amoraluri qceva,

maSin is ar aris swori

berliozi: ki magram Cven rom vswavlobT xolme, aTi mcneba

da rame?

volandi: eg xom swori da araswori qcevebis CamonaTvalia –

moiqcevi ase da RmerTi dagajildoebs, ara da ara..

berliozi: kargi, mere?

volandi: mere is, rom droa es oTxive niSani Cveni garemos

enaze vTargmnoT da vnaxoT ra gamova

berliozi: me megona aqamde vxumrobdiT – ra samyaros

mowyobis wesis mixedviT unda moviqceT – simebi da didi

afeTqeba rogor unda gamoviyenoT?

volandi: mag wesze ar unda vifiqroT – eg drozea

damokidebuli Tan imdenad, rom me mgoni ukve Seicvala, an

male Seicvleba

61

berliozi: aba raze unda vifiqroT?

volandi: raze da imaze, rac Cven dRevandel yofas

udevs safuZlvad, rogoraa Cveni samyaro mowyobili,

ufro sworad - rogor vigebT, rogoraa samyaro

mowyobili

berliozi: anu, Sen ambob, rom samyaro isea

mowyobili, rogorc vigebT misi mowyobis Sesaxeb?

volandi: ho

berliozi: anu, me Tu orasi wlis win saeklesio

skolaSi vigebdi samyaros mowyobis Sesaxeb..

volandi: da mere iwyebdi cxovreba im samyaroSi,

sadac codnis gavrceleba ganmtkicebaSi eklesias

didi roli hqonda, Sesabamisad, samyaroc CemTvis ase

iyo mowyobili

berliozi: maSasadame..

volandi: ra romantikuli sityvaa

berliozi: nu mawyvetineb, ra.. maSasadame, me Cemi

qceva samyaros mowyobas ki ar unda Sevusabamo,

aramed, imas, Tu rogor Semodis codna samyaros

Sesaxeb CemSi?

volandi: ase gamodis, ra gasakviric ar unda iyos..

berliozi: kargi, Tu egrea, maSin CemSi samyaro, anu, codna

samyaros Sesaxeb qselebiT Semodis

volandi: ho, Tanac, Tuki asi, orasi wlis winaT es

Semosvla mxolod patara da naglej-naglej arsebuli

qselebiT Semoifargleboda, dRes Cveni samyaros Sesaxeb

codnis qseluri gadacemis wesi aSkaraa

berliozi: anu, Cven ara marto aRviqvamT Tavs sxvdasxva

qselebis da qseli wevrebad, aramed qseluroba da qseli

Cveni samyaros TavisTavadnagulisxmevi safuZveli sxdeba

volandi: eg marTlac asea – yvelaferSi qsels – kavSirebs

da urTierTmoqmedebebs esmeva xazi – Tanac ise, rom

qselebze laparaki lamis cud tonad iTvleba

inteleqtualTa wreebSi

berliozi: eg magaria – ese igi swor gzaze vdgevarT

volandi: yovelTvis ara, exla vnaxoT

berliozi: hoda, imas ambobdi, qselebi rogorc gvqselaven

volandi: xoda imas vambobdi – Tuki Cveni samyaros

TavisTavadnagulisxmevi mowyoba qseluria, es niSnavs, rom

62

Cveni samyaro, maT Soris adamianTa samyaroc Sedgeba

qselebis qselisagan

berliozi: ra magaria, TiTqmis Sua saukuneebi

volandi: nu cinikosob, amazec bevri uTqvamT wina

saukunis moxuc semiotikosebs

berliozi: semio.. vis?

volandi: bodiSi, gamaxsebda rom Sen rom Segqmnes, eg

mecniereba ar iyo.. ara aqvs mniSvneloba, mTavaria

Cveni Temis boloSi gavideT, Torem dagveRala

mkiTxveli, da ha da ha da migvatovebs

berliozi: kargi, kargi

berliozi: hoda imas vambobdi, rom Cveni, adamianTa

samyaro Sedgeba patar-patara samyaroebisagan,

romlebic Tavad qselurebi arian

berliozi: ra Tqma unda – mini-samyaros simtkice

xom masSi nawilebis, da Cvens SemTxvevaSi, adamianebis

kavSirebis simtkicezea damyarebuli

volandi: nu ambob imas, rac TavisTavad cxadia

berliozi: visTvis?

volandi: mkiTxvelisTvis

berliozi: kargi, kargi

volandi: da mere es patara qselebi erTmaneTTan qselis

principebiT arian dakavSirebulni

berliozi: es rogor?

volandi: rogor da – yoveli patara qselis wevrebi

izolirebulni ar arian da sxva qselebis wevrebTan aseve

qselur kavSirebSi arian

berliozi: zogi am kavSirTagan sustia, zogi Zlieri, zogi

korporaciuli, zogi piradi, zogi wuTieri, zogi

memkvidreobiTi

volandi: morCi mantras

berliozi: kargi, me ubralod mkiTxvels varTob

volandi: mkiTxvels erTi ram unda – droze gavideT

boloSi

berliozi: kargi, gavagrZeloT

volandi: hoda, es kavSirebi qmnian Cvens qselur cxovrebas

berliozi: sainteresoa, Tanac ise qmnian, rom samyaros am

aRweras Cveni civilizaciidan ycelaze ufro Sors mdgari

jgufebic ki ver daaRweven Tavs – raki viciT maTi arseboba,

isini ukve qselSi arian gaxveulebi

63

volandi: kargi, da maSin rogori iqneba is moraluri

qcevis sami aRwera aseTi samyaros SemTxvevaSi?

berliozi: Tu oTxi? principuli gauzomvadoba

dagaviwyda. romeli sami – ar unda elodo jildos,

ar unda moaxdino saqcielis manifestireba, da unda

moiqce samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT?

volandi: ho

berliozi: samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT qceva

niSnavs, rom xeli unda Sevuwyo qselurobas – anu,

vamyaro da vamyaro qselebi da gavaba da gavaba

kavSirebi

volandi: ki batono

berliozi: manifestacia ar vakeTo – niSnavs imas,

rom ar unda viyviro amis Sesaxeb, rom me magari var

qselebis da kavSirebis gabmaSi da rom es super-

moraluri saqcielia

volandi: da jildos ar elodo?

berliozi: aq cota rTuladaa saqme – jildos ar

elodo unda niSnavdes, rom..

volandi: ras?

berliozi: imas, rom.. albaT imas, rom Zalian ar unda

Caiketo erT qselSi, radgan adre Tu gvian, qselebis da

kavSirebis erT mini-samyaroSi gabmis gamo, jildoebis wyeba

ar agcdeba

volandi: anu, gamova, Tu didxans SevrCi erT qselSi, erT

mini-samyaroSi, rac ar unda gavakeTo, jildosTvis

gavakeTeb?

berliozi: ase gamodis

volandi: modi kidev erTxel davfiqrdeT amaze – Tu me erT

mini-samyaroSi SevrCi – da gavagrZele socialuri kapitalis

dagroveba

berliozi: risi?

volandi: socialuri kapitalis – socialuri kapitali

niSnavs im kavSirebs da qselebs romelsac adamiani agrovebs

da agebs Tanamedrove samyaroSi da romelsac dRes ufro

meti mogebis da fulis motana SeuZlia vidre fizikur

kapitals

berliozi: egre viTom?

64

volandi: befvri fiqrobs rom asea, imitom, rom

yvela kapitalis dagrovebas win aseTi – socialuri

kapitalis dagroveba uswrebs..

berliozi: eseigi, me rom materialuri kapitali

davagrovo, amisaTvis jer socialuri kapitali unda

Sevqmna?

volandi: ho, an erTdroulad.. mokled, me Tu

gavagrZele erT mini-samyaroSi socialuri kapitalis

dagroveba, raRaca dones rom mivaRwev, me

aucileblad miviReb amisagan sargebels, amitom amas

unda averido, Tu moralurad minda rom moviqce

berliozi: ratom? imitom rom raRac momentSi Sens

mier socialuri kapitalis dagroveba gadaiqceva

mxolod mogebis mizniT moqmedebad, da qselurobis

xelis Seqyoba mxolod foni gaxdeba

volandi: es yvelaferi kargi, magram xom ar mivediT

gazomvadobamde? wina gverdebze xom vTqviT, rom Tu

moraluri qcevis prinvipi sworia, gareSes, sxvis

mier is ar unda izomebodes

berliozi: sityva kapitali nu dagabnevs, arc izomeba, es

mxolod Sens gadawyvetilebazea damokidebuli: rodis

gadawyvet, rom Sens mier kapitalis dagroveba cdeba

moraluri saqcielis farglebs da ZiriTadaT mogebaze

orientirebuli xdeba

volandi: marTali xar, mxolod wignis furclebze xdeba

axali cnebebis aseTi swrafi aTviseba da mere gamoyeneba

berliozi: kargi, kargi, nu daiboRme.. magram gamosavali ar

gviTqvams - ki batono, qselebis Seqmna-ganmtkicebaze unda

vizruno, unda Sevwyvito es saqme, roca Sevatyob, rom

mxolod mogebis motanis saxe miiRo, magram ra unda vakeTo

– Tavi movikla?

volandi: ai aq mivediT yvelaze saintereso adgilamde –

Tavi ki ar unda moikla, sxva mini-samyaroSi unda gadaxvide,

sadac ar gaqvs iseTi socialuri kapitali, rac Sens

sakuTar mini-samyaroebis erTobliobaSi gqonda da Tavidan

daiwyo qselebis da kavSirebis gamravleba

berliozi: da ase mTeli cxovreba?

volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki ginda, rom moralurad moiqce,

Tumca, raki Sen aravin ar gyavs ganmsjeli da mosamarTle,

65

SegiZlia raRac dros Sewyvito es samyaroebSi

mogzauroba da darCe erT-erTSi – arc aravin

getyvis arafers – iqnebi SenTvis Tbilad da mSvidad,

dagrovebuli kapitalebis garemocvaSi

berliozi: anu, Cveni moralurobis wesi ar gacda

mxolod-sakuTari-Tavis-mier-Semowmebis-

SesaZleblobas?

volandi: ara

berliozi: magram, Cven mainc ver mivediT konkretul

saqcielamde – mainc zogadi wesebis warmoebaSi

amovyaviT Tavi. konkretuli qceva rogori unda iyos?

volandi: konkretul qcevad rom vTargmnoT Cveni

wesebi, Semdeg suraTs miviRebT: Tuki samyaros

mowyobis wesis Sesabamisad viqcevi, me var mimarTuli

qselebis da kavSirebis gamtkicebaze da axali

kavSirebis gaCenaze. ara mgonia romelime gawvrTnilma

gonebam tyuili da mkvleloba, romelTaganac pirveli

qselis daSlas emuqreba, meore ki qselis moWidebis

adgilis - adamianis gaqrobas – qselis ganmtkiceba-

gafarToebad CaTvalos

berliozi: Tanac, am SemTxvevaSi jildos ar-lodini da

manifestaciaze uaris Tqma – damatebiTi uzrunvelyofis

funqcias asruleben..

volandi: marTalia, Tanac aq datovebulia TviTgamarTlebis

wyaro – adamins SeuZlia Tavisi Tavi daarwmunos – Tanac

yovelTvis, rom is jildosTvis ki ar muSaobs, mas ubralod

mouwia jildos miReba, TviTon ki ar akeTebs sakuTari

saqcielis manifestacias, sxvebi uwyoben da ase Semdeg

berliozi: es yvelaferi mxolod moralurobis

gavrcelebas uwyobs xels da ara piriqiT

volandi: albaT – sxva SemTxvevaSi, Zalian mkacri rom iyos

– Zalian cota adamini Tu gaiziarebda

berliozi: arc am principebis gaziarebaze moiklavs Tavs

vinme

volandi: arc unda moiklas – moralurobaze miTiTeba da

masze msjeloba imitom arsebobs, rom maZiebels gauadvilos

gza, da ara imitom, rom yvelam gaiziaros

berliozi: magram, konkretuli admianis saqcieli rogori

unda iyos, mainc ar vTqviT

66

volandi: rogori da – Seecados ar daebas romelime

konkretul qselSi, mudmivad imogzauros samyarodan

samyaroSi, Seqmnas axali kavSirebi da mini-samyaroebi

berliozi: eseigi, Tuki aqamde moralurobis da

moraluri qcevis xats brZola warmoadgebda, exla

mogzauroba unda iyos misi simboluri gamomxatveli?

volandi: ho, anu, amiT Cven mogzaurobas vabrunebT

inteleqtualur samyaroSi, gamarTlebas vuZebniT,

vacilebT cnobierebis ubedurebaSi dadanaSaulebas da

kidev bevr da bevr rames vakeTebT

berliozi: brZola xom rCeba mainc?

volandi: ki, magram brZola am SemTxvevaSi ar aris

moralurobis aucilebeli nawili – mxolod rogorc

iaraRi da saSualeba, isic garkveul SemTxvevebSi

berliozi: Cveni dialogi ki rogor gaxdeba

moraluri?

volandi: sxva dialogis dawyebiT

67

dialogi

tomi: isev aqa varT

brigita: ho

heklberi: mere ra?

beki: arc araferi, garkveuli azriT sasixaruloc kia

di: ratom?

TeTri orqidea: eg xom isedac gasagebia – es aris

Cveni yofnis erTaderTi forma

volandi: amitom ra – muxlebze daveceT da avtorze

vilocoT, kidev erTxel rom Segvkriba da dagvwera?

berliozi: ara mgonia es undodes – Tanac Tu

gaviTavaliswinebT, rom amas gvalaparakebs, es

namdvilad ar unda

tomi: sakmaod primitiuli xerxia

brigita: meore mxriv – rameTi xom unda daewyo

heklberi: exla Sen xar amas rom ambob, Tu avtori?

beki: ra gansxvavebaa?

di: mainc maqvs imedi, rom mcire damoukidebloba

mainc gvaqvs

TeTri orqidea: es damoukidebloba, romc gvqondes, ar unda

gavigoT ise, rom avtonomiurebi varT

volandi: avtonomiuroba ra aris?

berliozi: ai, Tundac, damoukidebeli kvebis wyaro rom

gaqvs

tomi: am azriT ar varT damoukideblebi – avtoris

kompiuteris klaviaturaze varT mibmulebi

brigita: da misi TiTebis moZraobaze

heklberi: da mis survilze

beki: da imaze, rac icis

di: ai, swored mand ar aris TviTon Tavisufali da mand

SeiZleba vipovoT Cven Cveni Tavisuflebis wyaro

TeTri orqidea: raSi – raRac tradiciebiT da codnebiT

rom aris gansazRvruli misi muSaoba?

volandi: ho, is xom erTis mxriv Tavisufalia Cvns mimarT,

magram, meore mxriv iZulebulia sakuTari ganaTlebis,

tradiciis da umsjelobebis gadakveTaSi weros

berliozi: anu, Tqven ambobT, rom is rom axla amas wers, es

mTlianad mis nebaze ar aris damokidebuli?

tomi: ho

68

brigita: hoda, Tu is wers ise, rom ar aris

mTlianad masze damokidebuli ras wers, swored es

aris Cveni Tavisuflebis safuZveli

heklberi: ki magram, es ormagi damokidebuleba xom

ar aris?

beki: ara – am samyaroSi Cven da avtori varT, es

samyaro marto Cveni da avtorisaa. Tu is iseT rames

akeTebs, rac ar unda, Tu Cveni laparaki da saubari

yovelTvis is ar aris, rac mas winaswar

warmoaudgenia.. .. ..

di: da Tu xandaxan.. .. xandaxan ki ara, TiTqmis

yovelTvis, man ar icis ras dawers meore momentSi,

Cven Tavisuflebi vyofilvarT, imitom, rom Tuki

SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom avtoris Semdgom nabijs

gansazRvravs tradicia da misi garemo, aseTive

warmatebiT SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom Cven, Cveni

garemo, Tundac Cveni wina cxovrebebi, gansazRvraven

mis, da maSasadame, Cvens moqmedebebs

TeTri orqidea: Sen ginda Tqva, rom avtori ki

gansazRvravs strategiulad ra unda rom daweros

di: ho, Sinaarss, mimarTulebas

volandi: magram imas, Tu rogor unda daweros, anu,

konkretul formas, Cvens yovel gadalaparakebas, Cven

TviTon vkarnaxobT?

berliozi: daaxloebiT asea

tomi: kargi, davuSvaT raRac gaurkvevel Tavisuflebas

mivageniT

brigita: arc ise gaurkvevelia, saintereso paradoqsi

gamodis – iq sadac avtori izRudeba, personaJi

Tavisufldeba

heklberi: me mgoni aq ganTavisuflebis magivrad

damoukidebloba unda gamoviyenoT

di: eseigi, rodesac is avtorisagan damoikideblad iwyebs

moqmedebas

berliozi: anu, rodesac avtors personaJis xasiaTi da

warsuli karnaxobs ra unda gaakeTos da ara nawarmoebis

zogadi CarCo

volandi: me mgoni amas SeiZleba Tavisuflebac ki davarqvaT

69

TeTri orqidea: im azriT, rom am Tavisuflebis Tu

damoukideblobis momentebSi Sen Sens Semoqmedze ar

xar damokidebuli da misgan Tavisufldebi

tomi: SeiZleba egerec vTqvaT

heklberi: maSin gamodis, rom absoluturi azriT me

mainc raRacaze var damokidebuli, magram am samyaros

konkrtulobaSi aris momentebi da mTeli pasaJebic

ki, rodesac damoukidebeli da Tavisufali var?

brigita: ho, egrea.

beki: kargi. raki davadgineT Cveni Tavisuflad yofnis

SesaZlebloba, Cveni yofnis formazec xom ar

gvesaubra?

volandi: eg sainteresoa?

TeTri orqidea: albaT

di: ara mgonia. ra unda iyos saintereso imaSi, rom

vlaparakobT

berliozi: ki ar vlaparakobT, dialogs veweviT

tomi: dialogSi varT

heklberi: hoda, am dialogSi yofnas Tavisi azri

unda qondes, Torem xom SeeZlo avtors Cveulebrivi,

naratiuli, TxrobiTi stiliT daewera risi Tqmac undoda

brigita: hoda, mkiTxvelebi rom moezida, es forma moifiqra

di: alabT egrec iyo, magram mxolod es ar unda iyos

dialogis da monologis gansxvaveba

brigita: monologis?

volandi: ho, dialogis garda yvela sxva weris forma

monologia

berliozi: maSin is Tvisebebi unda CamovTvaloT, rac

monologs aqvs da mere vnaxavT dialogi risi maqnisia da

ratom varT masSi moqceulebi

tomi: nuu, monologi yovelTvis raRcas amtkicebs

TeTri orqidea: monologis moyola advilia, mosmenis Semdeg

heklberi: monologebis citireba SeiZleba

beki: me mgoni, mniSvnelovania, rom monologi

erTmniSnelovnad ambobs rasac ambobs, anu, iwyeba msjelobiT

da mTavrdeba daskvniT

di: Sen ginda Tqva, rom monologi calsaxa da

sworxazovania?

70

TeTri orqidea: yvela ara, magram Tavisi formiT

naratiuli diskursi, anu, TxrobiTi stili, wesi,

gamoxatvis forma, aseTia

volandi: dialogi raRa jandabaa?

berliozi: aqedan gamomdinare, dialogs sapirispiro

niSnebi aqvs

tomi: magaliTad ra?

brigita: is, rom dialogs ver mohyvebi dialogad, is

monologad unda mohyve, rac misi gadmocemis formas

cvlis

heklberi: da maSasadame Sinaarssac

beki: ho, dialogi an unda dadga, ramdeni moqmedi

piricaa, imdenis monawileobiT, an unda monologad

aqcio

di: Tan, dialogi albaT, yvelaze ufro hgavs im

process, azris gaCena rom hqvia – sxvadasxva azrebis

Sejereba, winaamRdegobebis Zebna, raime daskvnebis

gakeTeba da ase usasrulod

TeTri orqidea: anu, dialogi TviTon aris azri

volandi: dialogi aris azri mTlianobaSi, da ara misi

daskvna da sabolood miRebuli debuleba

berliozi: mTeli dialogi aris is, rasac SeiZleba azri

davarqvaT

tomi: da is, rasac monologebiT vismenT – msolod azris

moWrili boloebia

brigita: ki magram, dialogebidan gamomdinare azrebs xom

iyeneben xolme?

heklberi: mxolod mas mere, rac monologad gardaqmnian

beki: eseigi, dialogi aris erTaderTi forma, romlidanac ar

gemuqreba arc Seni azrebis gadasxvafereba, arc raimes

miwera Senze?

di: ho, faqtiurad egrea. dialogi imitom ki ar aris

dialogi, rom ramdenime adamians Soris midinareobs, aramed

imitom, rom is aiZulebs avtoris warmosaxvas mTlianad

azri gadmosces, yoveli msjeloba ganixilos pro da

kontrebiT, da sabolood mogvces azri mTlianad,

Seukveceli da dauWreli

TeTri orqidea: amitom dialogs ver moyvebi, mxolod

SegiZlia dawero

71

volandi: da ra azri aqvs imis daweras, rasac ver

moyvebi?

berliozi: is azri, rom dialogi aris erTaderTi

forma, romelic SeiZleba gamoiyeno werisas da amave

dros ar miiRo naweri

tomi: anu, wero ise, rom ar wero?

brigita: ho, wero ise, rom ar wero, imotom, rom

weris mizania azris gadmocema, dawurva, erT-or

winadadebaSi moqceva, informaciis gadacema

sxvisaTvis, mokled da gasagebad

heklberi: maSin dawerili dialogi dauwereli

gamodis?

beki: ho, da eg aris dauwereli filosofiis azri –

platons rom awerdnen da mere didxans eZbdnen

di: platonis dauwereli filosofia misi

dialogebia?

TeTri orqidea: zustad

volandi: ras ar gaigeb kaci

berliozi: me mgoni Zalian kargi formac gvaqvs –

monologebs weren da kiTxuloben imisaTvis, rom

ilaparakon, mohyvenen.

beki: ho, da dialogs ver acitireb, Tu acitireb – erT-

erTi personaJis monologis citireba gamogiva da amitom es

ar iqneba dialogis citireba

tomi: marTalia – dialogi aris azris gadmocema – amitom

is salaparakod ar gibiZgebs, is gibiZgebs fiqrisaken da

sakuTar TavSi dialogis aRmoCenisaken

brigita: daiwyo ezoterika

heklberi: aranairi ezoterika – struqturaa aseTi –

teqstebs Soris mxolod dialogia iseTi, rasac ver

gamoTqvam – rom gamoTqva, sxva teqstad unda gardaqmna

beki: da maSin is ukve dialogi aRar iqneba

di: Tu gamoTqvam, dialogis bunebas kargav

TeTri orqidea: an SeiZleba dadga

volandi: maSin xom gamoTqma aRar iqneba – iqneba dadgma da

azris gaTamaSeba

72

berliozi: SegviZlia vTqvaT, rom yvela monologs,

anda, nebismier teqsts safuZvlad dialogi da

dialoguroba udevs?

tomi: ra Tqma unda – nebismieri teqsti aris

dialogis gardaqmna gamosayeneblad, gasayidaT,

bazarze gasatanad

brigita: rac sul ar niSnavs, rom es cudia

heklberi: sulac ara – ubralod yofnis sxvadasxva

formebze valparakobT

beki: da ubralod, vcdilobT vifiqroT iq, im

adgilas, romelic yvelaze ufro Seefereba azrs –

dialogSi

di: marTalia – sxva mxriv, monologur-teqsturi

fiqri hgavs produqtis gayidvas warmoebis procesis

CvenebiT

TeTri orqidea: eg xom xdeba xolme – sareklamo

rgolebSi produqciis warmoebis simulacias rom

axdenen

volandi: aba ra – magaliTad, risgan Sedgeba

snikersi, rogor iwarmoeba yava Cibo

berliozi: gamodis, rom monologiur-teqsturoba Cveni

yoveldRiurobis safuZvelSia

tomi: da dialoguroba aris erTaderTi gza vifiqroT

fiqris, da ara gayidvis da gasaRebis formiT

brigita: ase gamodis

heklberi: davbrundeT iq, sadac

beki: arsad ar unda davbrundeT – dialogi arsad ar

wasula, eg fraza – davbrundeT – aseve gasayidi formaa,

germaneli vaWrebi mimarTaven xolme

di: yovelTvis CvenTan iyo da yovelTvis SegveZlo misTvis

migvemarTa

TeTri orqidea: mokled – mag sentimentalobebs SeveSvaT,

erTi xom cxadia – Cven Cveni dialogebiT fiqrze varT

mimarTulebi da vcdolobT azrovnebas

volandi: ki magram, wignis maRaziaSi rom gaviyidebiT, es ar

aris raRac Secdoma Cvens dialogSi?

tomi: ra azriT – monologad xom ar viqceviT?

brigita: ara, ubralod, monologis formaSi gavexveviT,

droebiT, da mere Cven viciT

volandi: es raRac SeTqmulebis msgavsia

73

berliozi: aba sxvanairad rogor unda wavakiTxoT

Tavi?

volandi: droze davamTavroT, Torem ukve ise

vlaparakobT, monologuri suni avuSviT

tomi: ise, Tu exla gvkiTxuloben, es niSnavs, rom

ukve waikiTxes yvela dialogi, rac am wignSia?

brigita: ar aris aucilebeli, SeiZleba CveniT

daiwyes

heklberi: mere ra, Tu aqamde movidnen, sxvebsac

waikiTxaven

beki: vnaxoT