Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn

Full Moon in the Bible

Why is Easter on a Different Date Each Year?

11 05 14 

‘Full Moon in the Bible’by Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhnhttp://www.biblestudents.co.zahttp://www.thelordsday.wordpress.combiblestudents@imaginet.co.za

04 00 14 

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Full Moon in the Bible

Re: Why is Easter on a Different Date Each Year? - 04/14/14 06:46 AM

Krause:http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/102/main/62564/type/thread.html

What is it with Resurrection Sunday? One year it’s in March, the next in April! Is it true the British parliament tried to force the issue? And was ignored?Check out the statement in paragraph 5! Very interesting!Read more at [cut]

Here's the first statement of paragraph 5:After all, the death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred on

the day before Passover.

Samie:This is true. Passover is a full moon feast. That is why God instructed

that Passover meal is always to be eaten after sunset of the 14th in the first month of the Hebrew calendar which is lunisolar. On any lunisolar calendar, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th of any month is ALWAYS a full moon. Why? Because the Creator designed the lunar cycle to be so.

The lunar cycle or the period from new moon to the next new moon is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes. The period from new moon to full moon is one half of this value and is equal to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. This explains why the nighttime after sunset of the 14th of any month in a NON-FAULTY lunisolar calendar is ALWAYS a full moon.

This full moon evidence seemed to have been forgotten in the previous attempts of not a few scholars to arrive at the

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correct crucifixion date of our Lord. Jesus ate Passover on a full moon night, a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration. He was arrested that same night and crucified on the daytime that came which was preparation day of Passover. The Jews ate Passover nighttime after sunset that crucifixion day.

After all, the death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before Passover.

Sorry, but as I compare it with Scriptures, this statement is questionable, as we shall soon see.

Let us first take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox. The Lord was crucified in the reign of Pilate - 26 AD to 36 AD. Here are the different full moon occurrences AFTER date of vernal equinox in those years (Add 2 hours to get Jerusalem time):

26 April 20 Noon Sat.27 April 9 4 p.m. Wed.28 March 29 3 a.m. Mon.29 April 17 3 a.m. Sun.30 April 6 8 p.m. Thu.31 March 27 11 a.m. Tue.32 April 14 9 a.m. Mon.33 April 3 3 p.m. Fri.34 March 23 3 p.m. Tue.35 April 11 8 a.m. Mon.36 March 30 2 p.m. FriConsidering that the apostle John recorded 3 Passovers

after the baptism of Jesus which Luke said occurred in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius which started 14 AD, Jesus' baptism was 28 AD. The 3 Passovers recorded by John would have to be those in 29, 30 and 31 AD.

In 31 AD, full moon was Tuesday. If Christ ate Passover that night, then He was also arrested that same night, crucified

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Wednesday, and after 3 days and 3 nights as He Himself specified in Mt 12:40, He resurrected early Saturday morning. That He, in fact, resurrected Saturday, is corroborated in Mark 16:9 where it is specified that the Lord resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" or early morning of the chief Sabbath. Between a ceremonial sabbath and the weekly sabbath in that paschal week, the chief sabbath is undoubtedly the weekly sabbath, Saturday.

SDA scholars believe in a Friday crucifixion, April 27, 31 AD.

It follows that Jesus ate Passover on Thursday evening, April 26. But full moon was on Wednesday, Apr 25 9:59PM, Jerusalem time. Will Jesus Who said He came to fulfill the law which obviously includes the law on when Passover is supposed to be eaten, eat Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night and thus violate the law He said He came to fulfill?

Gerhard:The so called <Resurrection Sunday> you would have

noticed is always <on Sunday> in the world under Roman Catholic domination. It is because in this 'world', 'Good Friday' is always on 'Friday' as near as possible <on a new moon>—a PAGAN festival!

You would have noticed from the <article> that <<the death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before Passover.>>

So <Easter> is always on the same days of the week in the Roman Catholic world but on different dates, every year. It is because the passover in the Old Testament was “proclaimed to (or) in its season”—its ‘annual’ “season”, spring. New moon after equinox was “proclaimed” the first day of the First Month of the year (‘Abib’ or ‘Nisan’). Naturally the new moon could occur on any day of the week, and consequently, the full moon, fourteen / fifteen days after.

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Ron:I've heard many people claim that Passover is

determined by the vernal equinox (using either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.Does the Passover connection to equinox come from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)?

Samie:Did you know that in the first month of the Hebrew

calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs after the vernal equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar calendar, ALWAYS falls in the nighttime after sunset of Nisan 14.

Ron:If we were to determine Passover only by the

instructions contained in Scripture (which is the goal of the Karaite Jews), it would come near the middle of the lunar month when the barley crop will first be ready for Wave Sheaf day (during the week after Passover). And the first day of the month of Abib would be determined by the first sighting of the crescent moon in Israel soon after sundown (as it was at the time of Jesus), rather than being determined by modern astronomers using the calculated conjunction of the moon, which is erroneously called "new moon" today. (It actually marks the time of no moon rather than the time of new moon.)

I am aware that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews developed calculated calendars for use in the diaspora without an active Sanhedrin. What is the source of your hypothetical non-faulty Hebrew calendar?

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Samie:So then, you are not aware that the first full moon in a

NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source?

Ron:I read post #694318 again. There is no source mentioned

for the assertions you made, so apparently you have invented your own calendar and declared it "non-faulty" yourself.

Samie:What is more apparent is the non-interest in your part to

know that the average lunar cycle is 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes, and that the first full moon in the Hebrew year always fall after the time of the vernal equinox. You just could have easily proven it by yourself via cyberspace, brother. But why the non-interest in said fact? Afraid that fact will prove Samie's point is correct?

Ron:If you were God, that would certainly give your calendar

credibility. But since that is not the case, citing yourself as a source doesn't validate your imaginary calendar.

 I know how long the lunar cycle is. Because I want to observe God's feasts as taught in the Bible, I also pay attention to lunar months, the sighted new moons, and the necessity of adding a 13 month at the end of some years so that Passover occurs when the Barley crop in Israel is ready.

How do you define the Hebrew year? Are you defining the Hebrew year as "a year that starts (and ends) with the lunar conjunction closest to the Spring equinox" or something similar? Where do you find that definition in the Bible? Where do you find that definition in historical documents of the

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Israelites during Second Temple period? If that's how you define a "Hebrew year" then of course the first full moon of the "Hebrew year" would fall after the Spring equinox (and we would have an example of circular reasoning).

I'm not interested in circular reasoning. I'm interested in learning God's ways so I can follow the example of Jesus. When you start presenting evidence that supports your theory from Scripture and from history and evidence that shows how your theory relates to the way that Jesus and the believing Jews of his day lived, then I'll be interested.

Any teenager can take astronomical software and start concocting speculative theories about historical months and years using modern ideas and definitions that were not used in Israel at the time of Jesus.

Samie:What's with the tenor in your statement, brother?

Ron:I have directly asked you for evidence to support your

assertions about your speculative calendar theory. I have asked you for definitions of the terms you use, but you have not answered the questions nor presented the necessary evidence. Instead you have only repeated your assertions as if you expected people to accept your word as authoritative. That would work if you were God. Everyone else has to present real evidence to support their assertions, but so far you have not done so.

Samie:Is it necessary to prove your point? If nighttime after

sunset in the 14th of any month in a lunisolar calendar is not full moon, doesn't that make that calendar faulty?

Ron:

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Faulty according to what definition and by what standard? Who says that the full moon has to occur in the middle of a month? There are people who (erroneously) believe that Biblical months start at full moon. They quote the same Bible verses that you quote to supposedly prove their theory. But they don't present any real evidence, except that they don't want to define a month the same way the Jews defined a month.

Samie:I am afraid my brother is not really aware that 14th

nighttime is always a full moon.

Ron:That depends on when you start counting the first day of

the month. You apparently start counting the days of the month somewhere near the calculated lunar conjunction. In which location on earth (in which time-zone) does the first day of the month begin? If the conjunction occurs two hours after sunset at that location, do you count the next daylight as the first day of the month or the last day of the previous month? Where does the Bible describe your method of determining the start of a month? Which historical documents describe the Jewish people of Jerusalem during the time of Jesus using your method of determining the start of a month?

The writings of the Jewish sages describe a different method of determining the start of a lunar month that was used at the time of Jesus. They depended on witnesses observing the first sliver of the new moon soon after sunset. The website of the modern Sanhedrin (sanhedrin.org) indicates that in the years ahead they expect to once again use the sighting of the new moon to determine the start of a month. Using that historical method, the 14th nighttime of a lunisolar month is usually not a full moon.

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Krause:Exactly Ron. It matters not if the Moon is "full" "blue"

"new" "green" red, etc. Passover starts on Nisan 14, the lamb is eaten after sundown on the 14th, which would make the 15th Nisan the first day of Passover. Its to bad that Samie doesn't confirm with his local Jewish Rabbis to find out the real times and not just some theory that he holds as gospel!!!!!

Samie:How would you compare the medieval computations

then for possible crescent sighting with the computations using computers done today for ascertaining full moon occurrences forward or backward in time, Ron?

Can you cite any existing document that contains record of crescent sightings in the time of Jesus, Ron, which you said was basis for starting day 1 of the month? Consider this verse:

1 Samuel 20:5 And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

When did David first see the crescent prompting him to say to Jonathan that tomorrow is the new moon and thus start day 1 of the new month? Does this not prove that probable crescent sightings were likewise precomputed?

Ron:No, this doesn't prove that they were using a pre-

computed calendar. Here are some other possibilities, beginning with the least likely one:

We aren't told the time of day when David was talking to Jonathan. If they were watching the sky after sunset David may have seen the sliver of moon and pointed to it when he said, "Behold, to morrow is the new moon."

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Or if it was after dark, they may have already heard the report of the new moon sighting and could make plans for the next day's feast.

Or they may have known that a lunar month would have only 29 or 30 days before the next new moon, so if they were talking at any hour on the 30th day of the month they would have known already that the next day would be the new moon, even if the sky was overcast and the new moon could not be sighted that evening. This is the procedure currently used by the Karaite Jews.

Samie:So then, you are not aware that the first full moon in a

NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source? Read post #694318, and post your objections, if any.

Therefore, there was precomputation done, mentally or otherwise, which negates your assertion that they have first to see the crescent.

Ron:No. Even if it existed, such a document probably

wouldn't be of much use for your purposes because it wouldn't be referenced to other known calendars. It might possibly list how many days were in the preceding month, and the names of the witnesses who saw the moon. The method of determining the new moon that was used before the destruction of the Temple is described in the writings of the Jewish sages.

Samie, two of the three possible scenarios that I listed actually did require a sighting of the new moon on the same day that David was speaking to Jonathan.

The one scenario that did not require a direct sighting of the new moon on the same day that David spoke to Jonathan does require an unsuccessful attempt to sight the new moon on

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the previous evening, after the 29th day of the month. If the new moon is not detected by direct observation after the 29th day of the month, David could have known that the day after the 30th day would be the new moon feast. It does involve a very basic system of knowing just one day ahead of time that the new moon will come after the 30th day. 

Counting the days from 1 to 30 since the previous new-moon sighting could possibly be considered to be a "precomputation", but it is also a normal part of time-keeping during a month. The Bible contains many examples of counting days to keep track of passing time. Indeed the very first days mentioned in the Bible were being counted from one to seven and God actually commanded the Israelites to count 50 days to determine when Shavuot (Pentecost) would occur each year. So counting a sequence of days is a God-ordained skill that God expected the Israelites to have and use.

Counting the days in a month is many magnitudes simpler than the complex calculations that are required to determine "new moon" by the methods that you are using. Observing the first sliver of the new moon after sunset and counting the days of the month is a calendar system that is accessible to everyone, whether they are a simple shepherd boy or the high priest. 

By contrast, there are no examples in the Bible of people determining any of God's appointed times using the man-made system that you want us to use to determine the day of Passover.

Samie:In Bible times, the Israelites do not need our present

technology to determine when is Passover. But for us now to determine when they had their Passover 2 millennia ago cannot base our determination on when they then sighted the crescent because there is no existing record of crescent sightings. But using full moon occurrences which we can

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easily trace forward or backward in time via existing technology, it is possible to determine the day of Passover 2 millennia ago, because Passover is a full moon feast.

Ron:Your system requires the knowledge of of an astronomer

and a mathematician, skills and offices that are not mentioned at all when God instructed the Israelites to observe his Passover.

Samie:If there's no such document, then sorry, but it looks like

what you have are mere assumptions. And truth can NOT be based on assumptions.

Ron:Samie, it is you who is trying to prove that Passover fell

on specific days in specific years, not me.

Samie:But you said I am wrong, but when I asked you for proof

you have none.

Ron:There are significant differences between the way the

Jews determined Passover in the time of Jesus and the way Samie has tried to reconstruct the dates for Passover using modern methods.

I don't need a document listing the dates of new moon sightings. I am simply telling you that your methods of determining when a month begins are non-biblical and non-historical.

Samie:

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That's not the issue. I was just pointing out that the full moon was an evidence not resorted to by those who based their notion on crescent sightings, for which no record exists and which you yourself acknowledged there is none.

Ron:Samie, we do have reliable historical documents telling

us that the Jewish Sanhedrin of the Second Temple era used the sightings of the new moon crescent to determine when each month started. That we don't have access to a document listing the days of each new moon is disappointing, but the fact that we are missing that document does not give us permission to retroactively determine that their months started at the astronomical new moon, when we have reasonable documentation showing that they used a method of determining the day of the new moon that would cause their months to start a day or two after the astronomical new moon.The fact that you are using non-Biblical and non-historical methods to try to determine the date that Jesus died means that you will very likely come up with the wrong dates for Passover and the wrong year for Jesus' death.

Samie:Yes. The discrepancy lies in the accuracy of

computation. Full moon occurrences can be ascertained forward or backward in time, Ron. Unlike crescent sightings for which no record exists, except in the minds of some.

Ron:I see no reason to use calculations to try to ascertain

which day Jesus died.

Samie:You see no reason, of course, because you don't know

where to base your calculation.

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Ron:The Jewish sages that lived not long after the time of

Jesus described the methods used by the Jews to determine the new moon during the time when Jesus lived and died. The document with that description (or copies thereof) do exist. Of course, the existence of that document doesn't "prove" that the method that the sages described was the method actually used when Jesus died. I acknowledge that it is possible that the document I refer to could contain erroneous information. However, historical documents such as the one I refer to are considered to be reliable evidence of historic practices when they do not contain internal errors and do not contradict the other evidence available. The method of determining the start of a new month that was described by the Jewish sages is considered to be valid historical evidence and it is also compatible with the evidence found in the Bible.

Samie:I was just presenting a better alternative, brother, the full

moon occurrence. Using current technology, full moon occurrences could be easily traced forward or backward in time. Rather than base a point that Jesus could have eaten Passover on this or that date because the crescent COULD HAVE BEEN sighted on this or that date. I am not arguing with you on when a month starts but when Jesus ate Passover with His disciples that night He was arrested.

Ron:I'm not convinced that the traditional dates are accurate,

but there are far too many unfounded assumptions in your methods for your results to be believable.

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Samie:Such as? Point out even one, out of the many.Why did Jesus eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews? Ron:He could have been using a Galilean calendar (or moon

sighting) rather than the Judean calendar. Or he knew that he would be dead before the Passover meal would be eaten, so he planned an early meal. 

Samie:Assumptions. Compare your reason with mine. Again,

God instructed that Passover be eaten on a full moon, and Christ Who said He came to fulfill the law which obviously includes the law on when to eat Passover, ate Passover on the night the moon was full.

Chances are, the sighting came a day late, but full moon occurrence can NEVER be delayed, regardless of when the young crescent was first seen in the western horizon of Jerusalem. And Jesus SURELY can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to occur that paschal week.

Ron:In practice, it isn't that easy to detect which night is the

fullest moon. If the astronomical full moon occurs during the day, the moon can appear equally full two nights in a row

Samie:Our Savior was through Whom God made the worlds, including the moon. Would He not know on which night then was full moon?

Remember, Jesus will only eat Passover on the night the moon is full.

Ron:

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As far as I can tell, this is just your unfounded assumption.

Samie:And I don't blame you because you are not yet aware that

God instructed it to be so. Read my post #694470 and post your objections, if any.

Ron:I don't see anywhere in Scripture where we are instructed

to ascertain the phases of the moon either forward or backward in time.

Samie:Neither do Scriptures tell us to use the Internet.

Ron:God told us enough so that we can observe His

appointed times as they occur. Certainly calculations can be done, but without detailed historical records (which are not known) the calculations will not allow you to ascertain what day Passover occurred in any given year almost 2000 years ago. 

Samie:That's because you are not aware that Passover is a full

moon feast.

Krause:I'm in total agreement, besides if we actually go by the

Bible, Passover is on the 15th of Nisan not when there is a full moon. I look at his link to full moons, etc., and other than a few times the 14th of Nisan and the Full moon, doesn't come

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at the same time. And one date was so far off, it wasn't even funny.

Samie:You don't believe that Passover is a full moon feast,

brother? Consider this:NASB Psalm 81:3-5 3 Blow the trumpet at the new

moon, At the full moon, on our feast day. 4 For it is a statute for Israel, An ordinance of the God of Jacob. 5 He established it for a testimony in Joseph, When he went throughout the land of Egypt. I heard a language that I did not know:

What feast was instituted in Egypt, brother? Yes, Passover. And the feast day is on the full moon, says the above verse. And when is Passover supposed to be eaten?

KJV Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD

The 14th at evening, a full moon, is eating of Passover.There is no Nisan 14 in the link I provided. You

interpolated the dates of the full moon with a Hebrew calendar of your choice. So why blame Samie if Nisan 14 in the Hebrew calendar of your choice did not fall on a full moon?As to the times and dates of full moon occurrences, they are precise, brother. But as for how calendar makers arrived at their date in the Hebrew calendar you used as basis for the Nisan 14 that corresponds to the full moon occurrence, don't

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blame that on me. I have nothing to do with the faulty calendar you used.

Again, on a NON-FAULTY lunisolar calendar, the nighttime after sunset on the 14th of any month is ALWAYS a full moon.

Gerhard:Ever since the exodus passover fell on different days of

the week until the end of the eleventh century when the Catholic Church split over the very issue of the dating of passover into the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern or Greek Orthodox church. 

The Greek section was seen as ‘orthodox’ because it stuck to the “seasonal proclamation” of ‘Easter’ [into which the passover had been changed]. The western or Roman section of the church adopted the weekdays constant of the heathen spring-festival of ‘Easter’ and had to come after the ‘Jewish’ passover, not simply to dissociate with the Jews, but to have Resurrection day always coincide with Sunday. ‘Eastern’ or ‘Greek’ Christianity until this day observe ‘Holy Week’ or ‘Passion Week’ according to the annual or seasonal reckoning of the passover days of the fourteenth, fifteen and sixteenth days after first new moon after equinox. These three dates are today still observed as—for example—Tuesday Crucifixion-day (day 14 after new moon); Wednesday Burial-day (day 15 after new moon); Thursday Resurrection-day (day 16 after new moon). As mentioned before, these three days could be any three days of the week. 

So, where the Roman Easter is always over the same weekdays, the Greek Easter is on any three days of the week.Because the first after spring equinox can fall on any day of our present calendar, the date of Easter in the Roman just like in the Greek Catholic church, will fall on different days of the month as well as on different months depending when the first after equinox new moon occurred.

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SamieDid you know that in the first month of the Hebrew

calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs after the vernal equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar calendar, ALWAYS falls in the nighttime after sunset of Nisan 14.

Ron:I've heard many people claim that Passover is

determined by the vernal equinox (using either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.Does the Passover connection to equinox come from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)?

If we were to determine Passover only by the instructions contained in Scripture (which is the goal of the Karaite Jews), it would come near the middle of the lunar month when the barley crop will first be ready for Wave Sheaf day (during the week after Passover). And the first day of the month of Abib would be determined by the first sighting of the crescent moon in Israel soon after sundown (as it was at the time of Jesus), rather than being determined by modern astronomers using the calculated conjunction of the moon, which is erroneously called "new moon" today. (It actually marks the time of no moon rather than the time of new moon.)There are significant differences between the way the Jews determined Passover in the time of Jesus and the way Samie has tried to reconstruct the dates for Passover using modern methods.

Gerhard:The Passover connection to equinox does not come from

the Catholics or from the writings of the Jewish sages such as

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the Talmud. It comes from the Books of Moses. The Passover connection to equinox is IMPLIED.

Gregory:Gerhard, it is implied only for those who have been

educated to think that Spring starts at the vernal equinox.The Books of Moses do not use a word that refers to the season of Spring. The word used is "Abib", which does not mean Spring at all, but rather it refers to the soft green grain heads of barley.

The first mention of Abib is in Exodus 9:31 after the plague of hail. "And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear [abib], and the flax was bolled."The month of Abib was tied to the development of the barley in the land. It was not tied to the equinox in any way. Depending on the weather, the barley could develop heads early, or it could develop heads later. It was the development of the barley heads that determined the month of Abib.

The ripened heads of barley were required to celebrate the Day of the Wave Sheaf, which came a few days after the Passover meal. Also, the Israelites were forbidden by God to use the barley harvest until after the Day of the Wave Sheaf (Lev 23:14).

If a person were to tie the month of Abib to the equinox instead of to development of the barley crop in the land it could cause major problems for the Israelites. On an equinox-tied calendar there could be some years when there was no barley ready to wave on the Day of the wave sheaf, and there would be some years when the barley crop came early (after the hungry months of winter), but the people wouldn't be allowed to eat it until the after-equinox Passover and Day of the Wave Sheaf rolled around a month later.

The main reason that Passover is not tied to the equinox is because God commanded the Israelites to celebrate Passover

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in the month of Abib -- the month of tender green ears of barley in Egypt and Israel.

Gerhard:“This month, THE BEGINNING OF MONTHS, shall to

you be the First Month [implied: of the year].” Exodus 12:2. Numbers 10:10; 9:22

Implied, is the “time” of YEAR Exodus 34:18; or “TIME of month” Exodus 23:15; or “SEASON” of year or and month, Leviticus 23:4 -- which simply was spring-time -- which simply started on the day of vernal equinox. Then because the “month” [of 30 days] is the important thing, the first after equinox new moon is presupposed – taken for granted – as the first day of the First Month.

“Observe the MONTH OF ABIB … BECAUSE the LORD brought you OUT in the month of Abib.” Deuteronomy 16:1

“A whole month” (Numbers 11:20,21) was 30 days. [Par. 5.1.1.6.1.3.2. ‘Goshen to Golgotha’ p. 52]

Thus equinox is in fact in the Scriptures <tied to Passover> indissolubly, inevitably and undeniably, but the <<full moon>> or <<day of the full moon>>—although it consequentially would fall on the 14th/15th day of the month—, is not so much as mentioned once in connection with the passover or even as another feast day whatsoever! The importance attached to the full moon or day of the full moon cannot even be said to have <<come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)>> because they too necessarily determined the full moon from the new moon. 

The lobsided importance attached to the full moon and day of the full moon passover is directly attributable to twenty– and twenty first century Wednesday crucifixionists [like one Samie in this discussion].

Samie:

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This is true, after all, the death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before Passover.

Gerhard:This is NOT true. <<<death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred>>> NOT

<<<on the day before Passover>>>.The death of Jesus was "on the first day of no leaven

they always had to KILL the passover on" Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7 Matthew 26:17 John 13:1; 19:14 "The Preparation OF PASSOVER"

The burial of Jesus began with Joseph of Arimathea’s “sudden arrival” Luke 22:50 “evening having had come already” Mark 15:42 “since it had become The Preparation…and that day was great day sabbath” of passover, and “The Preparation which is The Fore-Sabbath”, and he – Joseph, “after the Jews” John 19:31,38 “the first night” of unleavened bread John 19:39 with Nicodemus’ help “prepared the body of Jesus to the customary Ethics of the Jews to bury”…and the following “mid-afternoon That Day The Whole Day The Preparation while the Sabbath … according to the (Fourth) Commandment … was nearing” Luke 23:54, had the body laid down in the sepulchre and closed with the stone. 

Samie:Jesus ate Passover on a full moon night, a day ahead of

the Jewish national celebration. He was arrested that same night and crucified on the daytime that came which was preparation day of Passover. The Jews ate Passover nighttime after sunset that crucifixion day.

Gerhard:So, according to you, unleavened bread after the exodus,

was eaten on the fourteenth day of the First Month?! 

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Well, after the exodus it was eaten AS WRITTEN, "on the FIFTEENTH day".

Samie:You cannot blame a person who does not know Physics

if he is not aware that the acceleration of a freely falling body is 9.8 meters per second per second.

Gregory:A half truth that is mostly true for an object at the

surface of the Earth. It may not true for objects outside of our solar system, or

for objects on other planets. I may be true in Newtonian physics. It may not be true in General Relativity considerations.It is not true for an object at the top of Mt. Everest, even

if that difference is small.NOTE: I could list more. But, this should be a start.

Samie:Oh, the Professor. Yes. You are right, and I agree with

your point. But I was not responding to your post. If it were your post I was responding to, it would have been a different picture.

Now, post your objection to my posts, and I will gladly respond the way you want.

In fact, he will consider the occurrence of the phrase "per second per second" as a redundancy.

Similarly, if one does not know that Scriptures specify Passover to be a full moon feast, you cannot blame him if he sneers at someone who correlates Passover with the full moon. Did not God Himself just overlook in the past the times of man's ignorance?

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Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent

It is up to the person concerned if he opts to stay ignorant.

Passover is on the nighttime after sunset on the 14th; by then, the 15th has already began, sunset to sunset reckoning.

SamieWhy did Jesus eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews?

Kevin:But Jesus did not eat the Passover a day a head of the

Jews.

Samie:He did, and He was arrested that same night, crucified

the daytime that came, which was preparation day of Passover of the Jews.

Luke 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? 10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 

Mark 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say

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unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.Scriptures say He ate that Passover with His disciples.

Kevin:According to the synoptic gospels Jesus was at a feast

the day before the Passover where the woman washed his feet with the costly ointment. According to John that feast was 5 days before the Passover. Thus we have a 4 day difference between when Jesus ate the Passover and when the Temple celebrated the Passover, not a one day difference. 

This correlates to the fact that different Jewish sub groups could not agree and the night that Jesus ate the Passover would agree with the Essene Passover.

Modern Christian Tradition has placed the Last Supper on Thursday night, then has the time of prayer in the garden, the arrest, different inquiries and trials before the Sanhedrin, the different trials before Pilate and being sent to Herod and the abuse by the Roman soldiers and have him on the cross by 9:00 Friday morning is a lot of activity in a very short period of time.

But early Christian tradition had the last supper Tuesday night with his arrest very late that evening, an inquiry, the required day in jail before the trials, Thursday all day and into the evening the different trials and on the cross 9:00 Friday morning. 

Modern archaeology is agreeing with the early tradition as we have learned more about the Essenes, the Essene Passover, which would have been the Tuesday night while the Temple Passover would have been Saturday night. And how the Synoptic Gospels had Simon's feast just before Passover but John has it a number of days before Passover. The contradiction between the time of Simon's feast and Passover in the Synoptic and John are actually resolved by what we now know about the Essenes and their earlier Passover.

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Gerhard:What logic is this, a <fact> of disagreement

<correlated ... with> the SUPPOSED <<Essene Passover … would agree ... the night that Jesus ate the Passover>> ---was what?!

KevinH, Samie says the same thing!Both of you are against the Scriptures. There is 0-zero-nothing of what you allege, anywhere or

anyhow to be seen in the Gospels!

Kevin:They ate in a part of the city where there were Essene

neighborhoods. they followed a man carrying water. The most common carrier of water was women. Then came donkeys, it was very rare to see a man carry water unless he was an Essene. Non Essene Rabbis would sometimes rent an upper room in the Essene monasteries and have a special celebration, celebrating the Holyday with special teachings for his disciples on the Essene's celebration of the Holyday if they were not able for some reason or another to do it on the Temple's celebration and thus keep the Holyday twice. Once on the Essene's day in an Essene monastery with their disciples, and again 4 days later with his family or what ever reason why he was not having it with his disciples. all of these indicate that Jesus had the last supper on the Essene Passover with his disciples. Then 4 days later he died as the Passover lamb.

Samie:Chances are, the sighting came a day late, but full moon

occurrence can NEVER be delayed, regardless of when the young crescent was first seen in the western horizon of

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Jerusalem. And Jesus SURELY can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to occur that paschal week.

Gerhard:You’re right, <<<Jesus did not eat the Passover a day a

head of the Jews.>>>Yet you’re wrong, <<<Jesus was at a feast … According

to John that feast was 5 days before the Passover.>>> No; according to John 12:1,12, it was an ordinary day—

an ordinary Day Seventh Day Sabbath of the week all things considered. 

All things considered it was <Jesus’ arrival at Bethany> — not on the Sabbath, but on the ‘Friday’ BEFORE He the following Sabbath Day “came where Lazarus lived in Bethany six days before days of unleavened bread.” John 12:1. 

FALSE:<<<John 12:1,2—6 days before the Passover>>>

The truth: <John 12:1,2> states <6 days before> “the DAYS”—the “DAYS” of unleavened bread.

John 12:12, “the next day”, therefore, was five days before the “DAYS” of unleavened bread.

FALSE:<<<John 12:1,2—6 days before the Passover John 19:14>>>

The truth:The day of <<Passover (in) John 19:14>> was the day

that Jesus was betrayed, delivered over and crucified and DIED on—the day “BEFORE THE FEAST” John 13:1—“the first day (of passover) they KILLED the passover on” Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7 Matthew 26:17. 

<<John 12:1,2>> therefore was NOT six days before <<John 19:14>>; it was six days before “that day great day sabbath … the Preparation” in John 19:31 “which is the Fore-Sabbath” Mark 15:42, the day on which the Jews would have

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eaten the passover cf. John 18:28; “the first night” of unleavened bread John 19:39. 

<<Passover (in) John 19:14>> WAS NOT the “Days” of unleavened bread, “NOT on the Feast”, yet. It still was “the Preparation Day OF Passover (Feast)”.

Exodus 12:3,6a, “on tenth day of the First Month take out and keep a lamb”.

Exodus 12:6b Leviticus 23:5 Joshua 5:10, “on the fourteenth day KILL it mid-afternoon”

Exodus 12:8,18a “on the fourteenth day in that night EAT the flesh with unleavened bread” – CHANGED to “the day after” Joshua 5:11, “the day BROUGHT OUT” : “EAT on the FIFTEENTH day” Leviticus 23:6 Exodus 12:18b,46,51 Numbers 28:17; 33:3.

No word in Old or New Testament of “the tenth day” or the day before it being a <<feast>>. 

That the ninth day of the First Month happened to be a Sabbath Day was incidental; but that “the tenth day” happened to be on the First Day of the week was according to the Exodus Scriptures about the passover having been fulfilled through Jesus “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God”. 

Jesus did NOT <<eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews>>. Where do you get that idea from?

The ONLY 'eating' [Declarative / Indicative Mood] of the passover Jesus in the night of the fourteenth its NIGHT- and FIRST halve of day, DID, was to SUFFER in “SOUL-unto-death-anguish”, and BE the Passover Lamb of God … … while Jesus’ disciples, actually DID eat; but they ate the NEW Lord’s Supper of BREAD and wine, NO unleavened bread and NO flesh of passover sacrifice at all … 

… which was exactly the opposite of the exodus-passover when Israel DID “eat unleavened bread with the flesh” BUT, ate “on the fourteenth” in its NIGHT- and LAST halve of day. 

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Sunrise days under sun-worship in Egypt CHANGED to sunset days under worship of the true God after the exodus. The fourteenth day of the First Month after its sunset became the fifteenth day of the First Month.

The fourteenth day when the lamb was killed mid-afternoon, divided and now ended sunset, when the fifteenth began and the lamb was eaten in its night.

Thus Jesus did not <<eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews>>. The Jews would have eaten the passover on the following night of the fifteenth Abib, which is clear from comparing John 18:28 with 19:31,38, and had NOTHING TO DO with <<the sighting>> OR, with <<full moon>>. 

SamiePassover is on the nighttime after sunset on the 14th; by

then, the 15th has already began, sunset to sunset reckoning.

Gerhard:There is no overlapping of days for as long as one

minute.When the sun has set, the 'old' day is over and the same

moment the 'new' day has started.IN EGYPT at the first and only exodus-passover, sunset

was the MIDDLE of the fourteenth; but after the exodus, sunset marked the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th."it is written "THIS DAY I BROUGHT YOU OUT"; "They departed on the FIFTEENTH day in the morning after the passover (was eaten)." THIS IS SAID RETROSPECTIVELY and institutionally.

Because in the historical passover at the exodus it is said: "In the First Month on the FOURTEENTH day ye shall EAT unleavened bread ... they shall eat unleavened bread in that night (of) ... the FOURTEENTH day" Exodus 12:17,18; 8,6.

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“The Whole Day the LORD did BRING the children of Israel OUT.”

New Moon was Celebrated During Daylight.Combining Jewish and Roman time concepts, it means

that if equinox occurs, say, between Monday night after sunset and Tuesday at sunset, equinox would have occurred on the ‘Third Day of the Week’ in terms of the Bible nomenclature for the days of the week. If the moon got ‘new’ during daytime it would not be visible to the naked eye before sunset. 

The Day of New Moon always started with the night whether the new moon could be observed or not. The Hebrew word for ‘New Moon’, chodesh, is also the word for ‘month’. Whether every 30th day afterwards was the first day of the next month, or whether every following new moon indicated the first of every consecutive month is uncertain. Whether as the first day of every month or as any day during the second month and the rest, the New Moons were celebrated as a religious significant day. See Psalm 81. 

The “ancient Jewish tradition” to celebrate New Moon during night is not the Old Testament way of observing New Moon. The First Samuel 20 anecdote clearly contradicts Jewish custom.

When the story of David and Jonathan is read, it becomes clear that New Moon was celebrated during daylight of the actual day of new moon. (This implies a reckoning of day from sunset to sunset.) “David said to Jonathan, Behold, tomorrow (machar, “tomorrow by the time the sun be hot”, 11:9 is the new moon (chodesh) and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat.” 5 (This clearly proves an astrometric calculation of new moon, and contradicts the notion of the first visibility of new moon to indicate 1st Nisan.)

See also 12, 18. “And when the new moon (chodesh) was come, the king sat upon his seat as at other occasions (of New Moon) … (verse 24) Saul spake nothing that day (yom)”.

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26 “And the next morning (mochorath, proper “morning”), the second (sheni, “second (morning)”) of the month (chodesh), it so happened that David’s place was empty”. 27 “Wherefore cometh not the son of Jesse to meat, neither yesterday (temol shilshon) nor today (hay yom)?” 

Also Psalm 81 suggests a daytime festivity “in the time appointed (the day of ‘New Moon’) on our solemn feast day. (Yom – which may stand for daylight as in “day and night”, Ps.88:1.) The New Moon “He ordained in Joseph” as a festival of deliverance from hard daylight labour. “I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots”. Instead of labour the command comes, “Take a psalm, bring hither the timbrel”. The absence of the mention of torches is conspicuous. Detail suggests a daytime festivity of the least resemblance with the idolatrous new moon feasts of night of the heathen. 

According to Isaiah 66:23 celebration of the New Moon received the same approach as celebration of the Sabbath which had its congregational worship during daytime. And according to this Scripture the New Moon was kept “from new moon to new moon”, obviously without any “postponements” to the day after new moon.

Gregory:My response is to be considered a general one that is not

made in response to any one person. It may also apply in part to another thread in this section. It will be simplistic and not comprehensive. There is more that may be said. This issue is actually more complex than has been acknowledged by some here.

I am surprised by the lack of reference to material that is available in the Internet on this subject. Much is helpful.Here are some general comments of mine:

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1) The foundational issue as to Easter dates back to the split between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church. The basic answer lies in that history.

2) In the time of Christ, the Jewish people had a civil calendar and a calendar for religious festivals. One should not calculate a festival by the civil calendar.

Gerhard:It does not exist nor is it hinted at in the New Testament. 

Gregory:If you are telling us that in the time of Christ the Jewish

people did not have a civil calendar which differed from the religious (festival) calendar, you are simply demonstrating your basic lack of knowledge of the situation in the time of Christ.

If you are telling us that the New Testament does not hint at such, you reveal a basic lack of knowledge of the New Testament. The NT has the purpose of revealing the activity of God in human life. The NT is not here to tell us every aspect of civil life and government. In the time of Christ, Rome ruled in Palestine. The NT does not tell us every aspect of life in Palestine under the rule of Rome.

The following is a partial answer. I will let you find more on the Internet as this is just simple basic stuff.

Quote:When Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians during the

seventh century BC (637 BC), the Israelites were brought to Babylon as captives. While there, they learned about the lunisolar calendar that their conquerors were using. They adopted it and when they returned to Jerusalem about 50 years later, they had two calendars in use—a lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. Both these calendars were used until the Hillel II reformed the Jewish calendar in AD 358/359 to a

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form still in use today. Hence, during the time of Jesus, the Israelites were using two kinds of calendars.

Krause:Exactly Ron, and not only that, as has benn said on a

number of occasions, Passover starts on the eve of Nisan 14, doesn't have anything to do with a full, half, new, old, green, red, etc., Moon!! Again a great post Ron.

Gerhard:Jesus' last passover perfectly agrees in every detail with

the Exodus record and rest of the Scriptures. Not one hitch whatsoever.

<<Simple basic stuff>> to me, would be simple, basic, Scripture.

In all the above, you gave me no, <simple, basic> SCRIPTURE. 

Thanks but no thanks.I just feel that I must ask you, if you are a Seventh-day

Adventist? Because I have never in my life seen a Seventh-day

Adventist 'argue' like you, or, use the <stuff> you use.

Gregory:3) Some calculated some festivals by a lunar calendar

and others by a lunar-solar calendar.4) In the time of Christ festival dates were calculated

differently by two different sects of the Jews. Thus festival were sometimes celebrated on two different dates.

5) In the time of Christ, Lunar dates were observational. It is wrong to calculate back by astronomical calculations when such were not used in the time of Christ. A calculated date may differ from an observational date.

Folks, this is just a brief summation of some, not all, of the issues.

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The issue is more complex than has been acknowledged here in this thread.

SamieBut using full moon occurrences which we can easily

trace forward or backward in time via existing technology, it is possible to determine the day of Passover 2 millennia ago, because Passover is a full moon feast.

Ron:Where does it say in Scripture that the Passover is a "full

moon feast"? It doesn't.You have only posted Psalm 81:3 where it says, "Blow

the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day." But that doesn't say that Passover is a full-moon feast. It simply says to blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, and on our feast day. It isn't necessarily saying that a new moon is equivalent to a full moon or that a full moon is equivalent to a feast day.

The next verse says, "For it is a statute for Israel, An ordinance of the God of Jacob." There is a statute in Torah that says to blow trumpets at the new moon of the seventh month which is the Feast of Trumpets (Lev 23:24, Num 29:1) and a statute that the priests blow the trumpets at new moons and at the appointed feasts (Numbers 10:1-10).

There is no statute in Torah about blowing trumpets at full moon. However, there is a statute about blowing the trumpet to convene an assembly (Num 10:8) Because Passover and Tabernacles both occur shortly after the astronomical full moon, it is quite possible that the trumpets were blown at full moon to call the people to assemble at Jerusalem to prepare for Passover and Tabernacles.

It is likely that the Hebrew word used for "full moon" in Psalms 81:3 probably does not refer to the moon only on the night closest to the astronomical new moon. It probably could

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be used to refer to the moon during a period of several days when the moon is brightest. When translating Psalm 81 into Greek for the Septuagint a couple centuries before Jesus lived, the Jewish scholars translated that Hebrew word as eusemo hemera meaning "clear day", so in the Greek Scriptures the verse doesn't refer to the full moon at all.

There is no evidence in Scripture that Passover is supposed to occur at the astronomical full moon. I have seen no evidence from historical documents that Passover occurred at the astronomical full moon.

Samie, if you want to reconstruct an ancient calendar in order to determine when God's feast of Passover occurred almost 2000 years ago, that could be a good goal if you did it accurately. But your method does not seem to be interested in what the ancient people actually did. Instead you are imposing what is convenient for you (using software that calculates full moons) to construct a calendar that was never used in Israel during the years of Jesus' life.

You are using calendar methods that were not used in Israel at that time. So what you have ended up with is a fantasy calendar that gives you bogus dates for Passover. You are merely pretending that the Jews 2000 years ago used the same calendar methods that you want to use, because you don't like the methods that the Jews actually used to determine months and feasts.

Windsor:Since the phases of the moon can be predicted pretty

accurately, we can, with modern technology and computation, go backward or forward to find out the phases of the moon at any given month of any year.

So going back to the year AD 31, we get from reliable sources that the astronomical new moon in April occurred on the 10th of April at 11:32 a.m. The lunar Sabbatarians agree to this. Here is what they say:

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The year was A.D. 31 and the first month of that year was April. Since N.A.S.A identifies the Gregorian 10th day to be the conjunction, all we must do is add a day to arrive at the first visible crescent as viewed in the night sky following sunset on the 11th of April. The following day April 12 is then New Moon day, which is also the first day of the lunisolar month of Abib/Nissan. Since we know from Scripture that Christ Yahushua died on the 14th of the lunisolar month of Abib/Nissan, then we simply count to 14 and, therefore, arrive at Wednesday April 25, A.D. 31, as the day of Christ Yahushua’s crucifixion.” (Kerrie L. French, The New Moon, When is it?; [cut]

Yes, the new moon in the first Jewish month was April 10th, but that is the new moon in conjunction. The biblical new moon, as they also say, is the crescent new moon. The lunar Sabbatarians have just added one day extra to arrive at the first visible crescent to be viewed in the night sky of April 11th.

Only the astronomical new moon can be found through calculations, not the crescent new moon. Does the crescent moon always appear in one day’s time? No!

Read what The United States Naval Observatory has to say about the crescent moon:

Although the date and time of each New Moon can be computed exactly (see, for example, Phases of the Moon in Data Services), the visibility of the lunar crescent as a function of the Moon’s “age” - the time counted from New Moon - depends upon many factors and cannot be predicted with certainty. In the first two days after New Moon, the young crescent Moon appears very low in the western sky after sunset, and must be viewed through bright twilight. It sets shortly after sunset.” (The United States Naval Observatory, Crescent Moon Visibility; [cut]

Again, The United States Naval Observatory says:The sighting of the lunar crescent within one day of New

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Moon is usually difficult. The crescent at this time is quite thin, has a low surface brightness, and can easily be lost in the twilight. Generally, the lunar crescent will become visible to suitably-located, experienced observers with good sky conditions about one day after New Moon. However, the time that the crescent actually becomes visible varies quite a bit from one month to another. (Ibid.)

The United States Naval Observatory says that “the sighting of the lunar crescent within one day of New Moon is usually difficult,” yet the lunar Sabbatarians have added only one day from the astronomical new moon to the crescent new moon!

The lunar Sabbatarians also believe that it is not always possible to have a crescent new moon on a fixed day:

If the crescent is observed for just a minute or less before full dark and then disappears, it is considered too young to be a new moon. When this occasionally occurs, sighting is delayed until the following night. (Author not given, Crescent Moon Sighting Instructions, [cut]; page acces- sed for original publication, but no longer available at this website)

The Karaite Jews say this about the sighting of the crescent moon:

. . . the ancient Israelites would have been well aware of the Crescent New Moon. In ancient societies people worked from dawn to dusk and they would have noticed the Old Moon getting smaller and smaller in the morning sky. When the morning moon had disappeared the ancient Israelites would have anxiously awaited its reappearance 1.5-3.5 days later in the evening sky. Having disappeared for several days and then appearing anew in the early evening sky they would have called it the “New Moon” or “Hodesh” (from Hadash meaning “New”). (The Karaite Korner, The New Moon in the Hebrew Bible; [cut]

We are told by this group of Jews that it takes up to three and half days from the astronomical moon to the crescent

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moon! Why does it take between one-and-half to three-and-half days between the astronomical new moon and the crescent new moon? That is because the speed of the moon varies due to the shape of its orbit.

The United States Naval Observatory says:The Moon’s orbit is elliptical, and its speed is greatest

when it is near perigee, least near apogee. If perigee occurs near New Moon, the Moon will appear to be moving away from the Sun in the sky at a greater than average rate. (The United States Naval Observatory, Ibid.)

We are not disputing the fact that the astronomical new moon in April AD 31 occurred on April 10th. We are questioning the credibility of adding just one day to the astronomical new moon as the lunar Sabbatarians have stated above should be done.

We are told by The United States Naval Observatory that sometimes even two days are too few to see the crescent new moon. The number of days depends on several factors. The Karaite Jews tell us that it could take up to three and a half days. There are no scientific records at all for the crescent moon appearances because there is no single parameter for its calculation.

However, the time that the crescent actually becomes visible varies quite a bit from one month to another. (Ibid.)How can the lunar Sabbatarians conclude, as if it were a scientific fact that the crescent new moon in April AD 31 was on the twelfth? They have only added around one-and-half days to the astronomical moon, but we are told it can take any time between 1.5-3.5 days.

We are equally justified to add 3.5 days to the astronomical new moon and arrive at the fourteenth of April as the crescent new moon!

The Jewish month starts from the crescent new moon; the 14th day is the Passover.

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In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S Passover.” (Leviticus 23:5)

The fourteenth day from April 14 is April 27, and it is Friday in the Gregorian calendar!

The lunar Sabbatarians may say that when Jesus died, it was the full moon because fourteen days after the crescent new moon comes the full moon, and The United States Naval Observatory records that April 25 in AD 31 was the full moon, not April 27. But let us not forget that the ancient Israelites did not have the advance of scientific knowledge that we have today. They were not going by astronomical new moons and astronomical full moons. They were going by the new moon and full moon visible to the naked eye, and the lunar Sabbatarians agree to this.

Ellen White also wrote that it was a full moon the day Jesus died:

In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims’ tents was hushed into silence. (The Desire of Ages, p. 685)

Since it was not an astronomical new moon, it also was not an astronomical full moon. Is it possible to see the moon as broad and full for more than a single night? Try it out. You can never know the difference the day before the astronomical full moon, the day of the astronomical full moon, and the day after the astronomical full moon.

Here is a quote from the best of places:Although Full Moon occurs each month at a specific date

and time, the Moon’s disk may appear to be full for several nights in a row if it is clear. This is because the percentage of the Moon’s disk that appears illuminated changes very slowly around the time of Full Moon . . . The Moon may appear 100% illuminated only on the night closest to the time of exact Full Moon, but on the night before and night after will appear

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97–99% illuminated; most people would not notice the difference. Even two days from Full Moon the Moon’s disk is 93–97% illuminated. (The United States Naval Observatory, The Royal Gazetteonline, Moon Phases; [cut]

The prophet of the Lord was right calling it a sixth-day-of-the-week Friday crucifixion in AD 31. So we have proved that it is possible to have an AD 31 crucifixion that falls on a Friday even in the Gregorian calendar!

Gerhard:State the same thing with SCRIPTURE ONLY!

Until you do, you have <<proved>> NOTHING!

Krause:Great post Gregory, I'm in agreement.

Ron:Interesting info, Windsor.The Israeli New Moon Society has software they are

developing to assist in determining new moon visibility. I don't know if it can be used for historical dates. [cut]

Some months the sighting of the new moon can be delayed or prevented by clouds or smoke/smog in the western sky. Also, when using a calendar system that allows a maximum of 30 days in a month when weather conditions prevent sighting the new moon, the date of previous moon sightings or non-sightings can affect the date at which subsequent months begin.

In the story of Noah's flood in Genesis it tells us that five months contained 150 days. Although it is possible that before the flood the lunar cycle was exactly 30 days long, it is also possible that Noah was unable to see the new moons due to overcast skies. In such a situation, the Karaite Jews would have thirty-day months until it became possible to sight the new moon. Each consecutive month where the new moon is

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not sighted can cause the month to become about a half-day further out of sync with the new moon, if it were visible. Later when conditions allow a new-moon sighting, the month that is ending would be shorter than normal months. 

Such a calendar system seems odd or bizarre to those of us who live in a business world that runs on Pope Gregory's calendar where we can plan ahead and predict the dates and holidays months and years ahead of time. I'm not convinced that God wanted people to be able to plan the future with the certainty that the Gregorian calendar system seems to allow. Genesis tells us that God put the Sun and Moon in place to regulate days, years, and his appointed times. Such an unpredictable calendar system is very compatible with what James wrote:

Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. (James 4:13-16)

KrauseExactly Ron. It matters not if the Moon is "full" "blue"

"new" "green" red, etc. Passover starts on Nisan 14, the lamb is eaten after sundown on the 14th, which would make the 15th Nisan the first day of Passover. Its to bad that Samie doesn't confirm with his local Jewish Rabbis to find out the real times and not just some theory that he holds as gospel!!!!!

Gregory:Pkause, the date for Passover has everything to do with a

"full moon." Nisan 14 was determined by a lunar calendar, under one system of celebrating the Jewish festivals.

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From Wikepedia:Of the disputes about the date when the Christian Pascha

should be celebrated, disputes known as Paschal/Easter controversies, the Quartodeciman is the first recorded. In the mid–second century, the practice in the Roman province of Asia was for the pre-Paschal fast to end and the feast to be held on the 14th day (the full moon) of the Jewish lunar month of Nisan,. .

Samie:Good point. This means you believe as I do that

Scriptures indicate Passover is a full moon feast as God Himself instructed the Israelites.

Gregory:As a lunar calendar celebration, the actual date depended

not on an astronomical calculation backwards from today, but from an observational calculation made on the spot at that time.

Samie:Your statement is CORRECT as far as the Jewish

national celebration of Passover is concerned. But why do you think Jesus ate Passover a day ahead of the Jews in AD 31?

Gregory:My response should not be construed as either

agreement, or disagreement, with your posts, or the above statement.

Samie:It appears you are not yet addressing the question I

asked.

Gregory:It took you until now to realize that! Astounding!

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Samie:I realized that the very first time I gave you the chance to

answer and you did not.

Gregory:I have not addressed several of the fundamental

questions that have been raised here. Those questions were not mine.

Samie:Yeah, they were mine.

Gregory:I have narrowed my focus to an issue that affects the

discussion regardless of the position one takes on the fundamental question.

No, I have not responded to certain questions raised here and I do not intend to respond to them.

Samie:One shouldn't, especially if his position on the issue is

shown to be Biblically unfounded.

Gregory:People on both sides of those questions have failed in

their understanding of the calendars used in the time of Christ and that is the issue that I address.

But, are you considering this: The Jewish festivals began at sundown on one day and ended at sundown on the next day. IOW, the Passover extended over two calendar days which began and ended at midnight.

I expected you would raise the issue of forgiving sins and you have a valid point which does not negate my major thesis.

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As to reading minds, a statement that Christ knew what they were thinking does not gift him with the power to read minds. I do not have that power to read minds and I often know what people are thinking. If you are married, you wife often knows what you are thinking before you speak. Yet, she cannot read minds.

The fundamental issue of salvation is: Could Christ live the life of a human without sinning. People differ as to whether Christ had to live the life of Adam or of someone in the time in which Christ lived. I have not addressed that specific issue.

If you do not understand the basic issue of Christ living a human life in order to save us, you simply do not understand salvation and what it cost God.

Samie:So? What do you want me to address? Full moon

occurrences in AD 31 can be easily mapped into the corresponding Gregorian calendar date we now have.Jesus came to fulfill the law which obviously includes the law on when Passover is to be eaten. He, through Whom God made the worlds, including the moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon would occur that paschal week. Therefore, the Savior ate Passover on the night the moon was full.

Here is one who says he understands salvation and yet cannot accept what Scriptures say that Christ has both the power to forgive sins and read minds which the good pastor says Christ does not have because "In order to provide for our salvation, Christ gave up his powers as a member of the Godhead." 

This "issue of Christ living a human life in order to save us" is off-topic in this thread, and it appears this is being brought up to veer attention away from the main issue for which the pastor's position is shown to be not in accord with what Scriptures say. The pastor says Christ did not have the

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powers Scriptures say Christ had, because if the pastor admits He had those powers then Christ knew when full moon occurred that paschal week.

The good pastor says "Christ observed the Jewish festival days on the same terms as did the other Jews in his day" yet Scriptures tell us Christ did not eat Passover in synch with the Jews.

Ron:I think we need to clarify the definition of the term

"Jews". Today that word is used to describe the whole group of people descended from the twelve tribes of Jacob. But the word "Jew" is not always used that way in the Bible. The word "Jew" refers to those from the tribe of Judah, or to those from the southern kingdom of Judah, or to those living in the land of Judea.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and was heir to the throne of the united kingdom of Israel (northern tribes) and Judah (southern tribes), so when Pilate placed the placard on the cross saying "King of the Jews" it was correct.

However, Jesus was called a "Galilean". There were some significant differences between the practices of the Judeans and the Galileans. My wife read a book by a Jewish scholar that described notable religious differences between the Galileans and the Judeans of Jesus' day. I don't remember what the differences were, but it is clear from verses like these that there were differences:

"After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews [Judeans] were seeking to kill Him." (John 7:1) At his trial Jesus and his disciples are referred to as Galileans, as opposed to the Jews or Judeans who put him on trial. The New Testament tells us that after Jesus' resurrection he appeared to Galileans and that they became his witnesses. (Acts 13:31)

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According to the New Testament Jesus was in Galilee shortly before going up to Jerusalem in Judea for the Passover feast at which he died. It is quite possible that Jesus was in Galilee at the time the new moon was sighted to start the month of Abib. So what do you do when you see the new moon from Galilee at the first of Abib and then travel to Jerusalem and discover that Judea was overcast on that evening when you sighted the new moon in Galilee, so the Judeans are a day behind you in the month? Do you simply go along with the Jerusalem calendar for that month even though your month started a day earlier because you saw the new moon with your own eyes? Historically, devout Jewish people in the diaspora (scattered away from the land of Israel) have often observed two days for feasts, the day they think is the feast day and also the day that might be the feast day if the new moon was sighted differently in Jerusalem. In a situation where the new moon was sighted in Galilee before it was sighted or declared in Jerusalem, it is quite possible that the Galileans who traveled to Jerusalem would celebrate Passover privately on the Galilean date and celebrate the Passover publicly with the Judeans the next day.

Samie:The good pastor's position appears to be NOT in synch

with what Scriptures say.

Gregory:O.K. you are telling us that Jesus would have had the

supernatural knowledge to know the astronomical date of the full moon. You are also telling us that Jesus would have been required to have celebrated the Passover on that date regardless of the date that the Jewish people in Palestine were celebrating the Passover. Inconceivable. 

Samie:

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Are you saying the Lord Jesus Christ did NOT have then "the supernatural knowledge to know the astronomical date of the full moon"? He Who can read minds, resurrect the dead, walk on water, command the storm to keep calm, command a fish to look for a stater coin, keep it in its mouth and bite Peter's hook, did not then know when full moon would occur? Now, isn't your position becoming INCONCEIVABLE, Pastor?

Gregory:Yes. In order to provide for our salvation, Christ gave up

his powers as a member of the Godhead.

Samie:Scriptures say He still had then the power to forgive sins,

a power that is the sole prerogative of God:KJV Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of

man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Gregory:He took on the life of the humans whom he came to

save. In that life he had not inate power to read the minds of the people with whom he came in contact.

Samie:He can read minds, Scriptures say:NIV Luke 5:22 Jesus knew what they were

thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?

Gregory:

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In that life he did not have the supernatural power to know that astronomical date.

Samie:On the contrary, Scriptures tell us a different story than

yours. 

Gregory:In living that life, Christ observed the Jewish festival

days on the same terms as did the other Jews in his day.

Samie:Not quite, Scriptures tell us He ate Passover ahead by a

day than did the Jews.

Gregory:If Christ had maintained any of those powers he could

have been charged with a failure to overcome sin on the same basis as us. He would have failed in our salvation.

Samie:Scriptures indicate He still had those powers and also

SUCCEEDED in saving us all from sin.Gregory:Remember, in the time of Christ, the Jewish leaders did

not have the ability to calculate the astronomical date of the full moon. They determined that date by observational means. IOW. One went out at the accepted time, looked up into the sky and said: The moon is full tonight.

However, if the sky was cloudy, the one who went out to look up into the sky said: I do not see any moon tonight. I will look again tomorrow to see if I can see a full moon.

NOTE: There is some reason to believe that in the time of Christ the Passover was celebrated on two different dates

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which were held to be the correct date of two different sects of Judisiam

Samie:Perhaps. But what is SURE is the fact that our Savior

Who came to fulfill the law, ate Passover on a full moon night as required by the law.

Ron:Samie, I agree that Jesus fulfilled the Law. However, I

have read the Law many times and have never seen where it says that Passover occurs at the astronomically calculated full moon, nor where it says one is required to eat Passover at the astronomical full moon. Where do you read about this full moon requirement in the Law?

Samie:Specific instructions for Passover:KJV Numbers 9: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in

the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season. 3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

That full moon night was the night after sunset of March 27, 31 AD, Tuesday.

Do you think the date I proposed is wrong? Why?Do you think the nighttime after sunset of April 26, 31

AD, is a better choice? Why?Scriptures tell us that God appointed the moon to

determine seasons:KJV Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for

seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

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Scriptures specify a full moon feast instituted in Egypt and made part of the law in Israel:

Psalm 81:4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast. 5 For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob, 6 Who made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt.

The above verses tell us this full moon feast is a law in Israel and decreed for them when they came out of Egypt. This feast instituted in Egypt on that night the Israelites left Egypt is the Passover:

Exodus 12:11 ... it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Clearly, the law specifies that the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL MOON.

Gregory:Those are not my issues. I have not addressed them. I do

not intend to address them.There is a lot of material available on the Internet on this

issue. One can go to the Internet and get more on this question than has been given in this thread. Why would I want to say anything on this when it is freely available to anyone who wants to read it.

Samie:

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So, how would they know if it was already the 10th of Nisan when they were supposed to take a kid from the flock and keep it until the 14th, kill it in the evening, roast and eat the flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs that full moon night?

Gregory:Again. They operated on an observational calendar. They

were not concerned with the astronomical calculation. When the Rabbi said the phase of the moon had been observed, that was accepted as fact. That is how they knew.

NOTE: The above is written in the context that there was not complete agreement on the above and as a result there was more than one calendar that was used.

Samie:For this layman, Jesus ate Passover on Tuesday evening,

March 27, 31 AD. Was crucified Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD. 3 days and 3 nights later as He Himself specified in Mt 12:40 rose from the grave early Saturday morning, March 31, 31 AD. The early Saturday morning resurrection of the Savior is EXPLICITLY stated in the Greek phrase "proi prote sabbatou" (Mark 16:9). Sadly, in order to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping, the genitive "sabbatou" was so translated to instead refer to "week" by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.April 27, 31 AD, Friday, is proposed by others as the date when Christ was crucified. It follows that Jesus would have been arrested Thursday night, April 26, 31 AD. Since He ate Passover the same night He was arrested, Jesus would have then eaten Passover Thursday night, April 26, 31 AD, a NON-Full Moon night, and the Savior would have then violated the law He said He came to fulfill.

Gregory:

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The citation above is only a partial answer. It does not address that Nisan 14 vs. Nisan 15 issue. There are other issues it does not address. But, it is clear, that as a lunar calendar celebration, as was celebrated by some Jews in the time of Christ, the full moon has much to do with a calculation of the actual date.

Samie:The Jews celebrated Passover a day late most probably

because the crescent sighting came a day late, thus, the calendar of the Jews was then faulty, heing NOT in synch with the full moon.

Krause:Maybe my meaning didn't come across correctly! The

reason I said it the way I said it, was because, the date doesn't change. Passover always starts on the evening of 14 Nisan, which is really 15th Nisan, first day of Passover per my family. Which is besides the point that the date of the 14th is important not the full moon. I say that because from the chart that samie supplied in one of his posts, it shows the full moon being on the 14th, 15th, or 17th and one date was almost a month off. If I were to ask my family what the full moon has to do with it, guess what? They'll tell me it doesn't have anything to do with it, the date is what is important.

Gerhard:Passover starts on Nisan 14 the day the sacrifice is killed

—Correct— right through ALL Scripture. The lamb was eaten after sundown on the 14th at the the

first and only exodus-passover ---ONLY in Exodus, chapters 12 and 13. 

In ALL Scriptures afterwards, passover was EATEN on the 15th Nisan the first day of “SEVEN days ye must eat

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unleavened bread”, the “feast” and “sabbath” and “great day” of Passover.

‘MOED’,Psalm 104:19, “The sun knoweth its time / season.” The whole Psalm is about <educating> the people of God to <think> about the “SEASONS” of all the creation of God. “TALK YE OF [<<educate those>> in] ALL HIS WORKS.”Teach them as follows:“He appointed the MOON [MONTHS] for SEASONS [YEARS]; the sun knoweth its (time / season to) RETREAT [autumn] … Thou RENEWEST [spring] the face of the earth.” 

Genesis 1:14, The sun and moon and stars were created to “rule the SEASONS”.Exodus 13:10, “The ordinance to eat the the passover”, was that it must be eaten “in his SEASON”.Exodus 34:18 Numbers 9:2,“in the TIME / SEASON of the month of Abib”. Leviticus 23:4,“PROCLAIM IN THEIR SEASON”Leviticus 23:4,37Numbers 9:3 “APPOINTED SEASON”Numbers 28:2, “Observe to offer unto Me in DUE / PROPER SEASON”.

The “DUE season” for passover was, as you described, the SEASON WHEN <<the barley was in the ear [abib]>>. 

“In DUE SEASON we shall REAP” Galatians 6:9. 

‘CHODESH’,

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Exodus 9:31, “In the time appointed of the MONTH of Abib, (MONTH of EARS / barley EARS.”

‘Moed’, “season” and ‘chodesh’, “month” are synonymous: Exodus 13:4, “This day came ye out in the MONTH Abib” Deuteronomy 16:6,“At the SEASON that thou camest forth out.”“In the TIME of the MONTH Abib” 23:15; 34:18. 

Springtime was rain-season,‘ETH’, Leviticus 26:4, “rain in DUE-SEASON” / “natural-season”.‘YAMIM’, Ezekiel 34:26, “rain shower in his SEASON”Jeremiah 5:24, “former and latter rain in his SEASON”Psalm 104:27,“meat in DUE-SEASON”.

‘DABAR’, Nehemiah 11:23,“DUE / EVERY / REGULAR (SEASON)”, Numbers 14:20, “the TIME / SEASON/ DAYS of the firstripe grapes”.Hosea 2:9, “DUE season” of the late year was the “wine-season”, SEASON of Yom Kippur Leviticus 23:23-44. 

Re:<<<The Books of Moses do not use a word that refers to

the season of Spring. The word used is "Abib", which does not mean Spring at all, but rather it refers to the soft green grain heads of barley.>>>

In Leviticus 2:14 ‘abib’ occurs the ONLY time explicitly defined as “firstfruits of corn / barley”. The KJV, “green ears

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of corn” is glaringly obvious, erroneous because it is in every respect CONTRADICTED BY THE CONTEXT. 

“Thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits, “ABIB = corn DRIED by fire / roasted BEATEN OUT OF FULL EAR.”

Now corn or barley is “beaten out” on the “threshing floor” out of the shells for the RIPE AND DRY and usually yellowish brownish seeds. 

At passover the first sheaf of ears on their stalks was cut or reaped from the “corners of your land” as the firstfruits of the ripe and dry and READY, harvest. Harvesting proceeded from the day after the first sheaf was “waved before the LORD” and was finished in seven weeks or forty nine days.Oil was put on the threshed corn or barley and frankincense was laid on it and then it was burned an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 

Green barley would never do!So the word ‘abib’ is this once incorrectly translated

‘green’ over against the one time for “barley” as such in Exodus 9:31, but six time times for the First Month of the year as such.

I would conclude from the available data all put together, that the plant, ‘barley’ – ‘abib’ got its name from the month of Abib, rather than the month ‘Abib’, its name from the plant or part of the plant, the “ears of barley”.

Gregory:If I recall correctly, you are not a member of the SDA

Church. I believe that you have a history of going to other religious forums and arguing with them--I am thinking of a Baptist religious forum were it appears you wore your welcome thin.

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Yes, as most people reading this forum know, I am SDA Clergy, alternately credentialed on the level of the General Conference and/or the North American Division.

The fact that you suggest that you have never seen SDAs make the arguments that I have made indicates that you have minimal knowledge of SDA beliefs and practices.

My expectation is: People who raise the issues that you raise should have the scholarly interest in learning the basics. You do not reflect that level of knowledge--you do not reflect a very basic level of knowledge.

The issues are complex. They divided the Christian church which led to the split off of the Orthodox from the Roman group. Some of the answers lie in a knowledge of that history.

There is more. You could learn it if you wished. It seems to me that you do not wish to do so. So, you come and argue. O.K. That is where you are.

A basis issue is: If you are going to want to debate an issue based upon the Jewish festival calendar at the time of Christ, you must know something about the Jewish festival calendar at that time.

End of discussion, or probably the beginning of a fruitful discussion.

Gerhard:I have no desire or interest <<<to debate an issue based

upon the Jewish festival calendar>>> or, to <<<know something about the Jewish festival calendar>>> at any time in history.

ALL I am interested in and desire to know about, is what the SCRIPTURES : the Old and New Testaments, have to say and teach about the “Passover-Suffering” of “the Lamb of God”, “Our Passover” ---BEING THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT OF MEN (tradition) OR OF JEWS (legalism) OR OF CATHOLICISM (anti-Christ). 

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I am afraid there is no hope for mutual <<fruitful discussion>>. Again you have replied with anything but Scripture about things you correctly have observed I know nothing about. So there obviously is no possibility for BIBLE-discussion with you from my side. 

Nevertheless, I sincerely want to thank you that this short debate has helped me to learn a great deal more from the Scriptures through the Scriptures about the Scriptures. Without your disparagements it would have been a really fruitless discussion for me. 

So thanks, and try keep it up if you can. 

Samie:For those who are NOT aware that lunisolar calendars

have full moon on the evening of the 14th of the month, full moon is not an issue in the keeping of Passover.

Gerhard:Back to the Scriptures .....

Jesus "ate the passover" through SUFFERING. Not through eating the bread on the table or drinking the wine which "He GAVE" to his disciples to eat and explained, "This is my blood ... this is my flesh" meaning this is MY SUFFERING.

Jesus' "Suffering-Passover-of-Yahweh", "in That Night", was a suffering as "with fire roasted" Exodus 12:8. 

Jesus’ pascha was a burning “fire in my bones" Psalm 31:10,11; 102:3,4 Jeremiah 20:9 Lamentations 1:13 Ezekiel 24:5. 

“My bones are burned with heat” of SUFFERING, Job 30:30

Jesus’ “NIGHT-of-Suffering”—his “Night-of-pascha”—was “That Night—the fourteenth day of the First Month”.“That Night … about midnight there was a great cry throughout all the land … and the plague shall destroy.”

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“By this Whole-Day-Bone-Day I have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt … on the fourteenth day of the First Month … THIS NIGHT … ye shall EAT unleavened bread.” 

“Strike the lintels and the two side-posts [the ENTRANCE to the Pascha-Suffering of the Lamb] with the blood.”

“AT MIDNIGHT THE LORD SMOTE … THE FIRSTBORN … the Whole-Night-Bone-Night, night to be solemnly observed … THIS IS THAT NIGHT …the ordinance of the passover … it came to pass the Whole-Day-Bone-Day.” Exodus 12. 

IN EGYPT Israel ATE passover on the fourteenth day of the First Month. 

Christ in Egypt-in-Gethsemane THROUGH SUFFERING ATE the Passover-of-Yahweh on the fourteenth day of the First Month. 

But on “THIS DAY ye CAME OUT of the land-of-Darkness on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month in the night”—

“THIS DAY ye became the LORD’S People”— “the fifteenth day of the First Month”, Israel “ATE the passover”! 

Which means that Jesus introduced the Lord’s Supper in the night of the fourteenth day and by having BEEN the Passover-Suffering-of-Yahweh, ATE the passover in “THAT NIGHT” of the fourteenth … WHILE THE JEWS would have eaten THEIR passover the following night on the fifteenth day of the First Month AS ORDAINED from that Israel crossed the Jordan river. 

That is what the Old Testament and the Gospels teach. Neither has anything whatsoever of or about factions in the time of Jesus which the one observed passover on the fourteenth and the other on the fifteenth.

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SamieBut what is SURE is the fact that our Savior Who came

to fulfill the law, ate Passover on a full moon night as required by the law.

Ron:Samie, I agree that Jesus fulfilled the Law. However, I

have read the Law many times and have never seen where it says that Passover occurs at the astronomically calculated full moon, nor where it says one is required to eat Passover at the astronomical full moon. Where do you read about this full moon requirement in the Law?

Gerhard:Yours is a valid question put to Samie.It was full moon anytime 14 or 15 days after any new

moon 'automatically' or consequently or consistently or 'naturally' --- anyway! The Bible does not need to say it with so many words because the Bible IMPLIED it with words JUST AS CLEAR, the words ‘”SEASON”, “MONTH”, and “YE”, shall “PROCLAIM”.

There is absolutely nothing about Jesus’ last passover which anyone of normal intelligence cannot deduce for himself from what is WRITTEN. 

The whole debate however, starts from another imagined difficulty in the Scriptures both Old and New Testaments / Gospels, the indisputable FACT Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper in the night-beginning of the fourteenth, and the Jews were supposed to eat the passover in the night beginning of the following day of the fifteenth of the month.

It is assumed the PASSOVER MEAL was eaten in the Lord’s Supper AND in the Jews’ passover— the former in the night-beginning of the fourteenh day; the latter in the night-beginning of the fifteenth day of the month.

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The flesh of the passover sacrifice was eaten IN EGYPT, “with unleavened bread on the FOURTEENTH” but once; but OUTSIDE Egypt, “on the FIFTEENTH” ever after.

…and on the fifteenth it REMAINED UNTIL JESUS CHRIST BEING THE FIRSTBORN OF GOD KILLED FOR THE SINS OF ISRAEL, for the first time ever and for the last time ever, again had his Passover-Suffering of Yahweh on the fourteenth day of the month. 

Israel in the NIGHT OF THE FIFTEENTH would physically have eaten the passover sacrifice as though they BURIED the body of the Lamb of God; while the true Israel of God in the persons of Joseph and Nicodemus IN “THAT NIGHT TO BE SOLEMNLY OBSERVED” (“THE FIRST NIGHT” the Jews would EAT unleavened bread) and the whole day following, BURIED the body of the Lamb of God in a grave hewn in rock.

Now since Joseph and Nicodemus could not bury the flesh of Jesus by physically eating it, they physically BURIED the whole body of Jesus INTACT, “SPOTLESS” AND “WITHOUT BLEMISH” “GOD” having by oath declared that “HIS FLESH SHALL NOT SEE CORRUPTION IN DEATH”, until God would raise Him from the dead “PERFECTED” AND “GLORIFIED” AND “EXALTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD IN HEAVENLY MAJESTY AND POWER.” 

Both days of the fourteenth and the fifteenth were necessary, essential and mandatory for Christ to have fulfilled the Passover-Suffering of Yahweh. 

NO—absolutely NO discrepancy or inconsistencies or whatever at variance with the whole of the Scriptures existed or has to be explained at the hand of EXTRA-BIBLICAL AND CONTRA-BIBLICAL information or sources or traditions of man or the Jews or the world. 

IT IS ALL THERE IN THE BIBLE.

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Unfortunately with every new version of the Bible it is getting increasingly difficult to recognise the marvellous ONENESS of God’s Word IN THIS MATTER. 

Ron AmnsnThe New Testament tells us that after Jesus' resurrection

he appeared to Galileans and that they became his witnesses. (Acts 13:31)

Gerhard:It was three and a halve years after Jesus' Resurrection. 

It reminds me of 'translation' of Mark 16:9.For sure it happened <<after Jesus' resurrection [that] he

appeared to Galileans and that they became his witnesses>>.Yes ja sure .... So it was after his resurrection that He appeared to Mary Magdalene on the First Day of the week. 

Yes ja sure .... So it must be that after his resurrection on the First Day of the week He appeared to Mary Magdalene ... OR NOT? 

For certain, NOT! 'translation'? No! : 'transgression' yes!

Gregory:Again, the Full Moon was determined on the basis of

observation. It was not determined by astronomical calculations. When the Rabbi said the festival feast is now, it was.

Also, some years had 12 months while other years had 13 months according to one calendar used by the Jews in the time of Christ. The 13 month year had more days than did the 12 month year which further affected the Passover date.

Some countries today still use a 13 month year for some purposes. I once lived in a country that required employers to pay their employees on a 13 month year. But in that country the 13 month year had the same number of days as did the 12 month year. In that country I hired a person to work for me. I

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paid that person, as required by their law, their monthly wage 13 times a year.

SamieScriptures specify a full moon feast instituted in Egypt

and made part of the law in Israel:Psalm 81:

4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast. 5 For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob, 6 Who made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt.

The above verses tell us this full moon feast is a law in Israel and decreed for them when they came out of Egypt. This feast instituted in Egypt on that night the Israelites left Egypt is the Passover: ……..

Clearly, the law specifies that the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL MOON

Gerhard:Psalm 81"3 Blow the trumpet in the new moon / moon -'chodesh'-

in the appointed time / festival of the new moon -'keseh'- on our solemn feast -‘chaq’- day -'yom'. 

Samie: Quote <<<the new moon, at the __full__ moon, on our solemn feast.>>>

Samie, which is your Bible? Because it does not seem to me the concept or the word or words, <<full moon>> EVEN EXISTS IN THE BIBLE?! 

Samie:Oh sorry for NOT having specified the Bible version I

quoted Psalm 81 from. It is from the NAB: "New American Bible. Copyright © 1991,1986,1970 by the Confraternity of

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Christian Doctrine, 3211 Fourth Street, N.E., Washington, D.C. 20017-1194, USA. All Rights Reserved.

Here is the New KJV:Psalm 81:

3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day. 4 For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob. 5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, ...

Intead of "full moon", the KJV used "time appointed" in Ps 81:3. "time appointed" is from "keceh", Hebrew for "full moon". Here are some other versions which properly translated "keceh" into "full moon":

The lunar cycle is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is the period from new moon to the next new moon. From new moon to full moon is half of this value and is equivalent to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. But long, long before man came to know of this value, God had already made it relatively easy for the Israelites to celebrate Passover in its appointed season which is on a full moon, by specifying that Passover be eaten on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. He Who created the moon SURELY knows that as per His design, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th in the lunisolar calendar of the Hebrews is always a full moon.

In Exodus 12 where the first Passover was instituted in Egypt, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon. In that chapter, Moses was instructed that as early as the 10th of the month, the lamb for Passover had to be selected:

KJV Exodus 12:1-31 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a

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lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

The 10th day of the month requirement tells us the Israelites should not wait until a Rabbi declares it is the full moon because the 10th of the month would have, by then, passed when they were supposed to have taken out the lamb for Passover.

When God decreed in the above verses that the Passover month shall be the first month of the year, He knew that the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon that month. He gave the Israelites an exact starting point for the reckoning of their months. Their very first month, their beginning of months, had a full moon on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. Their subsequent monthly reckonings should be relatively easy by an alternating 29 and 30 days to a month.ASV Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast-day.BBE Psalm 81:3 Let the horn be sounded in the time of the new moon, at the full moon, on our holy feast-day:CJB Psalm 81:4 Sound the shofar at Rosh-Hodesh and at full moon for the pilgrim feast,CSB Psalm 81:3 Blow the horn during the new moon and during the full moon, on the day of our feast.ERV Psalm 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day.ESV Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day.GWN Psalm 81:3 Blow the ram's horn on the day of the new moon, on the day of the full moon, on our festival days.JPS Psalm 81:3 (81-4) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.NAB Psalm 81:4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast.NAS Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day.

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NET Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn on the day of the new moon, and on the day of the full moon when our festival begins.NIB Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn at the New Moon, and when the moon is full, on the day of our Feast;NIV Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn at the New Moon, and when the moon is full, on the day of our Feast;NJB Psalm 81:3 blow the trumpet for the new month, for the full moon, for our feast day!NKJ Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.NLT Psalm 81:3 Blow the ram's horn at new moon, and again at full moon to call a festival!NRS Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our festal day.RSV Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day.

King Solomon also used "keceh" in Proverbs 7:20.

Gerhard:Context demands Proverbs 7:20, ‘ ּכםא ’ - ‘kesech’ -

“DAY” - ‘yom’, “appointed”; and Psalm 81:3, ‘ ּכםה ’ - ‘keseh’ / <keceh> - “time appointed” [EHCC 606, 608] will have to do with ‘kadesh’ - “new” and ‘kodesh’ - “new moon”.

Gregory:The idea that they alternated months of 29 days and 30

days is an interesting idea. Not everyone would agree with that idea.

Now you reference the lunisolar calendar. Are you aware that the lunisolar calendar sometimes had 12 months and at other times it had 13 months. NOTE: The 13 month year had more days in it than did the 12 month year.

The above post sounds to me like you equate the lunar calendar with the lunisolar calendar. Perhaps I am wrong. If I

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am correct that is an interesting view of the calendars used in the time of Christ.

Samie:Clearly, the law specifies that the appointed season for

Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL MOON.

Gerhard:The Exodus out of Egypt took place in utter darkness,

"THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS".The LORD provided light for the children of Israel

through the Cloud: "and the Cloud was Christ".In the darkness over night-time, the Cloud was a "Pillar

of Fire"; IN THE DARKNESS DURING DAY-TIME, the Cloud was the shadow-protection and LIGHT of the Pillar of Cloud which was Christ who is "the Light of Life".

The moon was not and could not be seen during the exodus, but was "thick darkness" like were there no sun or moon or stars. The darkness of the Passover of Yahweh is perfect darkness like occurred from noon until mid-afternoon when Jesus suffered the Passover of Yahweh on the cross. The darkness during Christ's Suffering of the Passover of Yahweh was the "three days absolute darkness" of the exodus IN "THREE HOURS THERE WAS DARKNESS".

"There was darkness", means, DARKNESS RULED; Jesus’ Passover Suffering descended below death, and below point zero into a black hole that sucks up life and light. Which is why the “three hours” Suffering of Passover of Jesus Christ represented the "THREE DAYS DARKNESS" of the exodus compressed into one “DAY OF THE LORD” IN “SORROWFULNESS EXCEEDING DEATH”.

‘KESEH’Young’s Analytical Concordance: ‘time appointed’ 

Look at ‘chodesh’ – “moon”; ‘chadash’ - “new”;

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‘chad’ – “sharp” / “cleft”; ‘chaq’ – “feast” / “solemn feast” / “first”.

The ‘ch’ // ‘k’ and ‘o’ // ‘a’ > ‘e’, plus ‘kese’ - ‘to appoint’, to form ‘keseh’ - “appointed feast”.

“Appointed feast” of the ‘sharp’ / ‘new’ / ‘first sliver’-“moon” [as seen through the ‘cleft’ or ‘portals of the heavens’]. 

Young’s Analytical Concordance adds: “see ‘seh’” ‘Seh’ - “lamb” / “sheep” to form ‘keseh’ : “time

appointed” for ‘keseb’ - “sheep” / “lamb” to be offered FOR THE NEW MOON’S FEAST.

For no ‘full’ moon-feast! Now look at your list of ‘translations’—they are all

‘modern’: which tells its own story about their trustworthiness as far as Psalm 81 is concerned.

“Full moon” is a FALSE and FAKED ‘translation’.I do not hesitate to say WHY these modern quasi-

translations use <<full moon>> for NO reason whatsoever in the Hebrew text. Their hoax surprises me not at all. It is because they want to create something out of the Scriptures to give Easter a Christian face. So this full moon monster is only an icon or idol of the heavenly no-gods they worship next to their chief object of superstitious veneration, ‘The day of the lord Sun’, Sunday and Easter Sunday.

Samie:In the KJV, the phrase "time appointed" is used 12 times

in the OT:In Ps 81:3, "time appointed" is from "keceh".In Dan 10:1, "time appointed" is from "tsabah"."time appointed" is from "mow'ed" in the following 10 verses: Gen 18:14; Exod 23:15; Josh 8:14; 1 Sam 20:35; 2 Sam 24:15; Jer 46:17; Dan 8:19; 11:27, 29, 35;Any comment, Bro Gerhard?

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Gerhard:Yes; one question:

I do not see 'full moon'; am I blind?

Samie:Maybe not. Only, you close your eyes when you are

about to see "full moon". Can you see with your eyes closed, my brother?

Gerhard:May I answer here to our learned Pastor’s advice above? 

Gregory:Gerhard, I am not going to suggest which is the best

translation of the Hebrew word in question. That is not my issue here. However, if you want to tell us how a Biblical Hebrew or Greek word should be translated you should never use either Strong of Young. Those tell us how the Biblical words have been translated into English at the time Young and Strong were written. They do were not intended to define them.

If you want to debate their meaning, you need to support you view by the use of a lexicon. Your use of Young to support your view simply demonstrates that you do not have an understanding of the Biblical languages.

Gerhard:Pastor Matthews, Only one question please, I did as you advised, and checked up the Englishman's

Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance the mighty work of a host of mighty Hebrew scholars, including one of the greatest of all time, the inimitable Benjamin Davidson, whose own Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon of “The entire body of Words contained in the Hebrew Scriptures, exactly as they are found in the Text”— 

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I checked through them both like I did with Young’s, but strange, I COULD NOT FIND THE WORDS, “FULL MOON”! 

Now Young compiled his Concordance for the ploughboy like Tyndale translated the Bible for the ploughboy, so that backbush Boere like myself can also understand. But strange, once again, I COULD NOT FIND A SINGLE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ANY OF THE THREE WORKS.

It is only that I found Young’s so helpful to the ignorant like myself, that in the end it felt like I wasted my time on the ‘big’ scholarly books. Because I am in fact thoroughly ignorant of the Hebrew so that I needed the simpler work—WHICH ONLY THE GREATER SCHOLAR was qualified to write for them.

Even so I can thank God for Young’s, but feign would thank Him for magnificent Lexicons and Concordances. 

So, with all due respect, Pastor Matthews, Only one question to you, too, please, I did as you

advised, BUT COULD NOT FIND THE WORDS “FULL MOON” in those big works. 

Now I am open to be corrected …. [or is it ‘open for correction’? As you will have noticed, I am not an English speaking person.]

Samie:From the Jews:JPS Psalm 81:3 (81-4) Blow the horn at the new moon,

at the full moon for our feast-day.JPS HOLY SCRIPTURES 1917 (English). The Bible text designated JPS 1917 is from The Holy

Scriptures (Old Testament), originally published by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917. Electronic text Copyright © 1995-98 by Larry Nelson (Box 1681, Cathedral City, CA 92235). All rights reserved. 

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The Jewish Publication Society is non-Christian. Would they translate "keseh" into "full moon" and give "Easter a Christian face" as you claimed?

Your move...

Gerhard:<<<Maybe not. Only, you close your eyes when you are

about to see "full moon". Can you see with your eyes closed, my brother?>>>

You really obliged?! Unbelievable! More mate, MORE!Answer hoax with hoax .... <<<JPS HOLY

SCRIPTURES 1917 (English).>>> MORE Samie, MORE like this!!!

The Lexicons and Concordances – like those referred to above – are Christian and COULD have had an interest in rendering <<"keseh" into "full moon" and give "Easter a Christian face">>, BUT THEY DID NOT! 

In any case, << JPS HOLY SCRIPTURES 1917 (English)>>, is <English>, and on top, twentieth century, meaning that <The Jewish Publication Society> INTENDED to have the Scriptures understood in a way THEIR OWN AGE – MAINLY the Easter-believing English world – WOULD UNDERSTAND IT. 

<The Jewish Publication Society> I would stick out my neck to say, were English-speaking children of their OWN age rather than the age of Moses, who wanted to be understood by their readers as also English-speaking children of their common age who understood their ‘Scriptures’ just like all English-speaking children of their age, would. 

It can be guaranteed unconditionally <The Jewish Publication Society> KNEW FAR LESS than Christian scholars about Hebrew as an ancient language; and have done virtually nothing in comparison with the Christians in the field of applied linguistics and semantics and so forth. I don’t care

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which <Jewish Society> they will always be WEIGHTLESS on the scale against Christian scholarship. 

Meantime the bare fact stands, NOWHERE in the Bible is the full moon mentioned. 

I can think of three instances where the full moon is DESCRIBED in word-picture. WHY IS ‘KESEB’ NOT USED HERE: Job 31:26 Song of Songs 6:10 Isaiah 3:18?Because ‘keseb’ had nothing to do with the full moon in the Scriptures, EVER! 

Samie:KJV Proverbs 26:4-5 4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also

be like unto him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in

his own conceitI think I have done verse 5. It's now time for verse 4: I

rest my case.

Gregory:Let us clarify the difference between a concordance and

a lexicon. You reference the Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee

Concordance. This was a book that was published in the mid 1800's. Dates given for its publication are typically 1866 & 1843. As a concordance it is simply a listing of the Hebrew (and Aramaic) words found in the O.T. and a listing of the verse in which each word is found. For that purpose it is an excellent work, as long as one keeps in mind that it is only accurate for the textual manuscripts that it surveyed and were available in the early to mid 1800's.

The Young and Strong concordances are of value in that they tell us how each of the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic words have been translated into English.

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I use concordances often as they are of value. Their value is in telling us what verses contain specific Biblical words and in the case of an English concordance how those Biblical words have been translated into English. They are NOT of major value in telling us the meaning of the Biblical word. To determine the meaning of the Biblical word you need to use what is called a lexicon for the Biblical word. A dictionary is like a lexicon except that those that pertain to a Biblical language are called lexicons.

you tell us that you have looked at Benjamin Davidson's, Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon. You are clearly correct that this was a major scholarly work. It was of major importance in that it was an analytical lexicon, which is a category in itself.However, I note that this work was published in 1848. It is clearly dated. The understanding of the Semitic languages has progressed much since 1848. It was a masterpiece in its time. It continues to have value today. However, there are other lexicons in print today who are much better.

If you want to understand the meaning to the Biblical languages you should not depend upon this outdated work. Base your understanding on lexicons that are much more up to date. Our knowledge of the Semitic languages today is far beyond what it was in 1848

Samie: I am perplexed by your reference to the 1917 JPS publication,

Quote: The translation, which appeared in 1917, is heavily indebted to the Revised Version and American Standard Version.[2] It differs from them in many passages where Jewish and Christian interpretations differ, notably in Isaiah 7:14, where it has "young woman" as opposed to the word "virgin" which is used in most Christian Bibles. The 1917 edition was deeply indebted to non-Jewish publications. I wonder why you did not reference the 1985 (published over a period of several years) JPS publication. It should be noted that the 1985 edition is not related to the 1917 edition.

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Samie:Thanks for the concern shown this layman, Pastor

Matthews. It is much appreciated. Just wanted to give Bro. Gerhard what he wants: the older the better. Yet, no matter what, old or new, "kese" or "keseh", is "full moon" (Harris, et als, Theological Wordbook of the OT; Holladay, Hebrew & Aramaic Lexicon of the OT).

Gerhard:Where does ‘keseh’ fit ?With “moon” – ‘yahrehagh’? “ordinances of the moon” Jeremiah 31:35 …“Brightness of moon” – ‘yakar’ Job 31:26“Brightness of moon” – ‘nogah’ Isaiah 60:19 … No!With “moon” – ‘yehragh’?Deuteronomy 33:14Isaiah 60:20 “the moon shall not withdraw / wane”… No!With “moon” – ‘levahnah’?Canticles 6:10 “fair as the moon”.Isaiah 24:23 “moon confounded”Isaiah 30:26 “light of the moon as the light of the sun” … No!With ‘chohdesh’ – “month” 220 times—with “NEW

moon” 20 times?… YES!‘Chohdesh’ is used with ‘keseh’ - “time appointed” -

ONCE: in Psalm 81:3, “Blow the trumpet in the moon / NEW moon / (beginning of) month - 'chodesh'; 

“in the appointed time / festival of the NEW moon - 'keseh'; 

“on our solemn feast of FIRST / NEW moon -‘chaq’; “day” - 'yom'.

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Where does ‘keseh’ fit in texts with words for the “moon”? In any ‘full’ moon text or context?

… NO!ONLY in the context and content of texts which use the

word and concept of the NEW moon!Isaiah 24:23 “moon confounded”. If ever there was a day

and date the FULL moon as the sun and stars and all light was "CONFOUNDED", it was mid-day "the sixth hour" until "the ninth hour" while the Son of God hang on the cross and there came a darkness, so painful dark was it, that they who so jeered and scolded could chew their tongues for relief.

Gregory:Some reading this thread may wonder why I have

commented extensively on the issue of the Jewish calendars and I have not commented on what would be considered the major issue. IOW, why deal with what may be a minor issue and leave the major one alone.

In science, it is thought that if the protocols are flawed, the conclusions should not be accepted even if they are correct. I will give a couple of examples.

Let us say that I want to study the relation between tobacco use and lung cancer in the United States. It is not going to be possible for me to do a study of the entire population of the U.S. So, I study a sample. If my study sample is not representative of the U.S. population of the U.S. my conclusions are potentially flawed and should not be accepted. If my protocols failed to rule out people who began with liver cancer which metastasized to the lungs, my conclusions are potentially flawed due to my failure to rule out that confounding factor. In both cases, my conclusions may be correct, but my study has been so flawed in its protocols that my conclusions cannot be accepted.

I will give one more example. Let us say that I want to determine the specific gravity of lead and I do not have

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available to me a table of the specific gravity of various metals. So I take my sample of lead and determine it’s mass. Then I compare that mass with an equal volume of water and I come to the conclusion that the specific gravity of my sample of lead is 11340. That happens to be a correct figure for the specific gravity of lead under standard conditions.

Let us say that when I did my measurements my water was ocean water at a temperature of 10 degrees C. That is not standard conditions. Let us also say that there is another confounding factor. My sample of lead was contaminated by some included uranium and my measurements were off due to the fact that I read the measuring device upside down and I read a 9 as a 6. So, while my conclusion was correct, it cannot be accepted due to the fact that my protocols were faulty.

In this thread, I have concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the conclusions cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid understanding of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ.

Gerhard:I HAVE, rested my case --- on the Word of God.

Gregory:Tell me where (Give me a chapter and verse.) where the

word of God tells us how a Jewish festival day relates to the calendar that we use today.

If you want to tell us when Passover, the 1st or 12th Jewish month you have to give us that date in terms of our calendar. In order to do that you have to have a knowledge of the calendars that goes beyond what the Bible (I assume that your reference to the Word of God is to the Bible.) tells us.

The bottom line is: You do not go solely by the Word of God. You demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the various calendars used in the time of Christ and today.

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Does that mean that you are wrong in setting your date? No. It does not mean that you are wrong in setting your date. It simply means that you have failed to prove your thesis.

In this thread, I have concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the conclusions cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid understanding of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ.

Samie:For my part, the non-establishment or establishment of a

valid understanding of the Jewish calendar and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ does not play a determining role in the conclusion I arrived at.

Why?Because my reference is not the Jewish calendar but the

ACT of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover. And I believed that ACT was done on a full moon night.

Do you agree that the Lord ate Passover with His disciples on a full moon night prior to His arrest? If NO, why?

Gerhard:Yes Samie, I do agree with you.And I liked the way you put it, <<<the ACT of the Lord

Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover.>>>

I think that was very good; and that is exactly how I believe CHRIST "ATE", THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH --- HE LIVED IT; HE WAS IT; HE SUFFERED IT: HIMSELF HAVING BEEN THE BREAD OF LIFE BROKEN AND THE LAMB OF GOD KILLED --- which <<ACT>> of Jesus was his act of EATING the last Passover.

And yes, it DID occur on a full moon night --- a full moon night and day because it was “the fourteenth day”, "the

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first day to remove leaven on” (Exodus 12:15 “in its season” Leviticus 23:4)— “the first day (of the Passover of Yahweh) they always had to KILL the passover on" Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30 1Corinthians 11:23.

As far as I can see – as far as this aspect of Jesus’ Last Passover is concerned, there is only the difference as to whether or not Jesus’ <ACT> of having ‘eaten’ the Passover of Yahweh was to ‘EAT’ “The Flesh” of it – Himself --, or to eat the Bread on the table which He “GAVE” --- as “MY flesh” --- to his disciples, to eat. 

Samie:This is wonderful, my brother. Since you likewise acknowledge that the Lord ate

Passover on a full moon night with His disciples prior to His arrest, do you also believe as I do that using current technology it is not difficult to map that specific full moon night with the Gregorian calendar?

Gerhard:Thirty years ago I might have tried. Actually I did try.

But I did not find it <<not difficult>>. On the contrary I found it impossible and though an attempt unmatched to this day, I today estimate my attempt OF NO AVAIL— in fact, an irrelevant and meaningless attempt! 

All this calendar stuff you can find in the first volume of my book 'The Lord's Day in the Covenant of Grace' --- first published in Afrikaans - ironically titled : 'Light upon the Lord's Day' – ‘Lig op die Dag van die Here’ – LONG before the days of internet. The English followed not long after, published also maybe 15 years, no, longer, before internet OR COMPUTERS for that matter. At the same time I had to learn the English language. At first my papers were handwritten— on one side only, then I cut them literally into pieces and

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arranged the pieces to subject-matter, spread out all over the floor and desk and book-cases; then I re-wrote the whole lot and repeated the same process for how many times --- not until the result was 100%, but until more or less, order was discernible. In the early days of internet, some 'rating site' awarded the first set of books 95% for 'subject ordering' (or whatever they called it). My physical 'cut and paste' efforts paid off! I tell you this because in those days for me, it was the only way to do things. 

'Paper 159' I think it was, written by some COG person, was my introduction to the 'calendars debate'. But through the years as the Scriptures became more clear to me, the importance of calendars and ‘astrometric science’ declined. 

God expects of no disciple of Jesus Christ to be a scientist; only to be a believer in the Scriptures. The older I get the more important the Scriptures and the principle of ‘the Scriptures only’, become.

I discovered two great truths— of all things, on sugar sachets – my wife having taken me out for ‘tea for two’. 

On the one sachet, Pierre Schmidt, a Swiss dietician if I’m not mistaken, says, “Truth always expresses itself with the greatest simplicity.”

The other sachet had this written on it --- I write from memory --- “Discovery is to see what everyone sees, but to think what no one thinks or has thought.” My best friend and I were talking of things most precious to us. I gave this saying. I had to repeat it to him so he could memorise it there and then; he found it most precious too. 

I am therefore sorry to admit that I do not attach the same importance you do, to <<<using current technology to map that specific full moon night with the Gregorian calendar>>>. To me it really is inconsequential. 

I pray you will revert to the ‘technology’ of “Sola Scriptura” and “Sola Fidei”. I am sure you will find it far more rewarding and fully sufficient in an understanding of “THE

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THINGS CONCERNING THE CHRIST HOW THAT HE HAD TO SUFFER-PASCHA”.

Gregory:Yes, both Samie and Gerhard: You believe that Christ

ate the Passover on a full moon night. In order to relate that day and month to a day and month in our present calendar you have to understand the Jewish festival calendar. Without that understanding one cannot relate that day to a present day.

1) In the time of Christ the term "Passover" was typically used to apply to Nisan 14, but sometimes it was used to apply to The Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is demonstrated by Josephus in ANTIQUITIES. Also check out Luke 22:7, for an interesting verse and there are others.

2) All modern tables that attempt to give the full moon during the time of Christ use modern methods of computing the Passover, which was not how Passover was computed in the time of Christ.

3) Knowledge as to how the lunar calendar of the time of Christ can be coordinated with our solar year is simply lacking. We can not do it with certainty. In fact, we can not calculate with 100% certainty either the day of the week or the month in which the Passover of Christ occurred.

NOTE: Yes, I believe in a Thursday night celebration of the Passover, with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection.

Samie:I don't think so, Pastor. Full moon occurrences were

NEVER dependent on the Jewish festival calendar. It is the Jewish festival calendar that had to be tied up with the full moon occurrence.

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Gregory:This issue is further confounded by the fact that in the

time of Christ there was more than one Jewish festival calendar in use.

Samie:That only proves further that the Jewish festival

calendars then were most probably erroneous. This fact was made evident by the Lord's eating of Passover ahead of the Jewish national celebration. So what's the need of relating our current day and month in our present calendar with an ERRONEOUS date in the Jewish festival calendars? It is common knowledge that the Jewish month Nisan or Abib roughly corresponds to the mid-March to mid-April period in our present day calendar. All that need to be done is locate the first full moon after the vernal equinox in the crucifixion year of our Lord.

Gregory:The date for Easter is the issue that split the Christian

Church many years ago. It is this issue that results in the Orthodox Church celebrating Easter, sometimes, on a date different from the Roman Church.

NOTE: Occasionally they celebrate Easter on the same day. That happened this year (2014) when Easter was celebrated by both groups on April 20.

However, here are the dates for Easter in the future:2015: Orthodox on April 12Roman on April 52016: Orthodox on May 1Roman on March 27The issues that divided the Christian Church in the past

are complex. I do not believe that either of you have ever addressed these issues. That is just one of the reasons that I do not believe that either of you understand the issues.

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Samie:The issues you speak of, Pastor, do NOT in any way

impact on the issue of pinpointing the full moon occurrence when our Lord ate Passover the night He was arrested. Full moon occurrences can be traced backward in time and zero in on the full moon night when our Lord was arrested, without taking into consideration the issues you are referring to. I am quite puzzled why you insist on addressing these IRRELEVANT issues.

Gregory:If you do not understand and/or address the issues, why

should anyone take you seriously as to your conclusions?Here are major questions1) Did Christ celebrate Passover on the same date that

the Jews celebrated it? If you say that Christ celebrated Passover on a different

day from that observed by the Jews in His time, support your thesis. A reasonable person would suggest that Christ celebrated Passover on the same day.

2) What calendar was used to track the Jewish festivals in the time of Christ?

The Calendar used in the time of Christ sometimes had 12 months and sometimes 13 months in a year. Its months sometimes had 29 days and sometimes had 30 days.

The 13 month calendar had Adar as the name for the 12trh month, as did the 12 month calendar, and it had Adar II as the name for the 13th month.

This difference in months affected the beginning of the 1st month, which was named Nisan. It also resulted in some years there were more days between Passover than there were in other years.

3) How was the date for the "Full moon" determined? 

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Sometime in the 4th century after Christ, the Jews developed an astronomical method of calculating fixed dates for the Jewish festivals. This was done to accommodate the diaspora--the Jews who were scattered among other nations and who with this new method of calculating the festival dates could keep them on the same date--if they chose to accept this new method of reckoning the date.

Prior to the development of this new astronomical method of calculating the festival dates, the date of the New Moon was a date that was determined by a Rabbi in Palestine observing it in the sky and announcing it in a formal announcement. This resulted in a variation in the announced date from an astronomical date that we might calculate today. The variation would be due to observational issues. 

It was also in the 4th century that the Jewish calendar began a 19 year cycle that had further impact on the festival dates. 

While some might say that this 19 year cycle existed in the time of Christ, I do not believe that the evidence supports this thesis. 

4) It should be noted that I am concentrating on Jewish festival dates. I am not spending my time with a civil calendar. I will only say in passing that in the time of Christ civil calendars existed that used a Regnal method of tracking time and that used a Roman civil method which is typically called the Julian calendar today.

NOTE: Regnal is the correct spelling.It should be noted that the Bible sometime uses the

Regnal method. It is used extensively in the O.T. but also sometimes in the N.T.--Luke 3:1 is an example.

The Regnal method is complicated by the fact that Regnal years were calculated by two (2) methods. One has been called the "accession year" method. The 2nd method has been called by a couple of names, one of which is the "antedating method."

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There are other issues with the Regnal method.There were also other methods of calculating the civil

years that were used in the time of Christ. The Olympiad method had been used since about 776 B.C. The A.U.C. (ab urbe condita) method had been used since about 753, although these dates are not exact.

5) My discussion above is brief and does not cover every issue. But, what I have said above is elementary and available easily to anyone who wants to study the issues.

NOTE: I plan to say a bit more in another post.My personal position: Our knowledge level is such that

we cannot say with 1002% certainty as to the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection. We can get close, but not absolute certainty.

1) In the time of Christ the term "Passover" was typically used to apply to Nisan 14, but sometimes it was used to apply to The Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is demonstrated by Josephus in ANTIQUITIES. Also check out Luke 22:7, for an interesting verse and there are others.

2) All modern tables that attempt to give the full moon during the time of Christ use modern methods of computing the Passover, which was not how Passover was computed in the time of Christ.

3) Knowledge as to how the lunar calendar of the time of Christ can be coordinated with our solar year is simply lacking. We can not do it with certainty. In fact, we can not calculate with 100% certainty either the day of the week or the month in which the Passover of Christ occurred.

NOTE: Yes, I believe in a Thursday night celebration of the Passover, with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection.

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Samie:I don't think so, Pastor. Full moon occurrences were

NEVER dependent on the Jewish festival calendar. It is the Jewish festival calendar that had to be tied up with the full moon occurrence.

Can you show HOW the issues you speak of PLAY an INDISPENSABLE role in locating the full moon night when the Lord was arrested?

Gregory:If you do not understand and/or address the issues, why

should anyone take you seriously as to your conclusions?Can you show HOW the issues you speak of PLAY an

INDISPENSABLE role in locating the full moon night when the Lord was arrested?

Gerhard:It is of NO interest to a Christian in which exact YEAR

Jesus Christ suffered death and resurrected again.But the Scriptures itself and Jesus Himself STRESS the

"three days" that it would take Him to die, be buried and resurrect. 

My stance is the SCRIPTURES DO THOROUGHLY EXPLAIN THIS. 

No one seems to bother to notice anything the SCRIPTURES have to say about the matter.

First of all the SCRIPTURES explain HOW, IN WHAT MANNER AND SENSE, Christ "ATE" His Last Passover BY BEING the Passover Lamb of God THROUGH SUFFERING DEATH. 

No one seems to care one bit. Next the SCRIPTURES distinguish and identify and

MEANINGFULLY circumscribe the DAYS of the week as well as DATES of the month "in their season".

These passover days and dates DIFFERED FROM THE

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BEGINNING I.E. FROM THE EXODUS --- which explains why Jesus with DYING DEATH, "ATE" the Passover of Yahweh on the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month, while the Jews would have "EATEN" the FOLLOWING day in "the first night", "the flesh with unleavened bread”, “in the FIFTEENTH day of the month" --- for “seven days, unleavened bread". 

The two dates of the fourteenth AND the fifteenth days of the First Month ARE DATES “PROCLAIMED” BY THE SCRIPTURES IN THE SCRIPTURES, Old AND New Testaments identically the same. 

The two dates and the two meals on the 14th and on the 15th are NOT coming from different Jewish sects or from lunar calendars or whatever. 

If it were not these two days and two meals, the SCRIPTURES would not be fulfilled but proven false, and so its Messiah --- GOD FORBID! 

Samie, Can you tell me - just for interest sake ---Suppose Jesus entered Jerusalem the tenth day of the

First Month, five days before 15 Abib the first day of “DAYS of unleavened bread”.

Suppose the walk from Ephraim to Bethany lasted two days, then Jesus departed from Ephraim on Abib 7, eight days before Abib 15.

Now suppose “passover was nigh at hand” in John 11:55 meant the month of Abib had begun to be “observed”: “observe the month of Abib” the month of the passover, then the first day of the First Month and the new moon occurred on the Sixth Day of the week before. 

Now, Alex, I ask for interest sake only, Does your calculation of the full moon fourteenth on a ‘Wednesday’, correlate with a Sixth Day first day of Abib and first new moon after vernal equinox?

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Samie:Did Christ celebrate Passover on the same date that the

Jews celebrated it? Scriptures indicate the Lord ate Passover ahead of the

Jews. He ate Passover on the night He was arrested. The Jews ate Passover the next night, on the night immediately following His crucifixion.

In 31 AD, the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox was on Tuesday, March 27. I FIRMLY believe, even if you don't, that the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to occur. He ate Passover that same full moon night in COMPLIANCE with the Law He said He came to fulfill. He was crucified Wednesday, March 28. 3 days and 3 nights later as He Himself specified, He resurrected early Saturday morning, March 31. 

March 28 was prosabbaton or day before Sabbath and preparation day of passover ((Mark 15:42; John 19:14, 31). Thursday, March 29 was ceremonial Sabbath. They prepared the spices they bought Friday when the ceremonial Sabbath was past (Mark 16:1), and then rested the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday (Luke 23:56). Mark recorded Jesus resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" = "early morning of the chief sabbath" (Mark 16:9).

I don't see any NEED of interpolating or extrapolating our current date with the festival calendar of the Jews in order to arrive at the full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover that same night He was arrested.

Gerhard:You haven't answered my question or rather request.Please don't mind; everybody can do without it, see,

that's what I wanted to show. It's a useless question with a useless answer.

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Gregory:You mention March 27, 28 & 29. By doing so, you have

to be able to coordinate dates between the calendar that we use and you just did and the Jewish calendar.

Samie:What for? You yourself provided proof there exists more

than one Jewish calendar then. If you yourself are not able to coordinate your belief in a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection with either one of the festival calendars of the Jews, why require others to do what you yourself could not do?

Gregory:You are in error. I clearly can coordinate my personal

belief with a Jewish festival calendar. I have never said otherwise. What I have said is that none of the various proposals for the time of the death and resurrection of Christ can be stated with 100% certainty.

Because none of them can be stated with certainty, I have neither defended my personal position nor have I attacked your position as to the dates/time of those events.

What I have done is to criticize your basic ignorance of factors that influence the issues around this question.

Gerhard:As far as I am concerned there is no "question" about the

'different' but not 'differing' dates of 14 and 15 Abib and their different but not differing meals.

The ONLY <<basic factor>> with any <influence> as far as I am concerned, again, IS THE SCRIPTURES --- NO computer geniuses and NO calendars experts are needed or can add the least of value to what the Scriptures only offer.

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Gregory:Perhaps, I am wrong and you are not ignorant of those

factors. But, on the basis of your responses to me and posts that you have made, I believe that you are ignorant of those aspects of the question.

Samie:I am sorry but the way you dance around the issues,

Pastor, really amazes me. As SDA minister you cannot deny the fact that you

accept April 27, 31 AD as crucifixion date, making the Lord eat Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night. But you just weave and heave and simply IGNORE what was asked and then RANT at something else not asked.

Gregory:I find it interesting that you would say that I can not

deny April 27 as the crucifixion date as a SDA Minister.1) The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not claim

April 27, in our time, as the crucifixion date. Yes, individual SDA Scholars do claim that as the date. But, the SDA Church has never required this as an article of faith.

2) The leading thinking of Seventh-day Adventist scholars is that there are three (3) potential days for the crucifixion, which converted to our time would be: April 3, April 7 and April 27.

Those scholars believe that the evidence is very strong to rule out April 3. 

They acknowledge that April 7 may be possible if the Jews followed one of the calendars then in use. However, they believe that two further assumptions are required for this date which cannot be proven and they question whether or not the Jews actually did follow that calendar.

As to the April 27 date which you mention, yes SDA scholars have generally accepted April 27, in our time, as the

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date of the crucifixion.However, those scholars believe that the April 27 date is

reasonable, but that it rests on some assumptions that cannot be proven.

3) AS the SDA Church has never claimed April 27 as an article of faith, I, as a SDA clergy person may believe any date for the crucifixion.

This is one reason why I have never challenged you as to a specific date. You and all whom you convince can believe any date that you want to believe. You do not have to believe in the April 27 date. You can believe in some other date for the crucifixion and remain a good Seventh-day Adventist.

4) It appears to me that in addition to not understanding the issues related to the calendar, you do not understand what SDAs require members to believe. While many SDA Scholars do believe in an April 27 date, they acknowledge that it cannot be proven and it is not required as an article of faith. Regardless of what I may personally believe, I have never stated that April 27 is an article of faith that others must believe in order to be a SDA. They do not.

Samie:I am just curious why "IGNORE & RANT" combined

does not apply to the good Pastor. I am sad I have to get down this low.

But so far, I have shown that the factors you accuse me of being ignorant of, do not play any role in pinpointing the full moon occurrence when our Lord ate Passover the night He was arrested. Your position in this issue relegates the Savior to a position of eating Passover on a night NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill.

Your insistence on those factors looks like just a calculated way of getting around the issue you know you have no escape from.

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Gregory:Actually, I am dumbfounded on this. I have not gotten

into the deep stuff related to this. I totally fail to understand how it is that you fail to understand basic aspects of the issues. That knowledge is easily available.

Samie:I surmise you likewise believe it is possible to track full

moon occurrences backward in time. The date I provided for the first full moon after the vernal equinox in AD 31 is beyond question. As SDA minister, you instead accept April 27 as crucifixion date, which would place the Lord's eating of Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night.

It has been stated that Christ observed the Passover supper on the day proceeding the day when the Jews observed the Passover.

Gregory:That statement may be a partial truth. Christ may have

observed the Passover supper on a day that was before certain Jewish groups observed it. As I have said, there were in the time of Christ, differences in the observance of the Jewish festival days.

I am not going to argue that point as I do not believe that it can be settled with 100% certainty.

Samie:You seem to imply that when John said it was

preparation day of passover when the Lord was crucified, he was not 100% certain of what he was saying.

Between what the Bible says and what a Pastor believes, I choose Scriptures.

Gregory:It is proposed by some that John does not agree with

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Matthews, Mark and Luke.I take the position that all four are in agreement. My

position is that John, Matthew, Mark and Luke all knew what they were saying.

The problem is not with them. Any problem is with our understanding of what they are saying.

As this issue has been well discussed, I will leave the solution for you to acknowledge and bring up if you wish.

Samie:As minister of the word, do you have any Biblical basis

for your claim?

Gregory:Is there a Biblical basis? Yes.But, as I said, I am not going to debate this issue.

Samie:You brought out 3 dates: Apr 3, 7, & 27 in 31 AD. All

those dates would relegate our Lord to a position of eating Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night, an act NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill.

Why do you think March 28, 31 AD crucifixion date cannot pass as a better choice, when that would mean the Lord ate Passover on the full moon night of March 27, a full moon?

If I remembered correctly, you reminded pkrause that the date for Passover has everything to do with a full moon. All four gospel writers agree and were 100% certain that Jesus ate Passover ahead of the Jews, contrary to what you said it is not 100% He did.

Matthew 26:19-20 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. 

Mark 14:16-17 16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and

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they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 

Luke 22:13-14 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

That same evening, He was arrested. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, and later crucified. John recorded it was preparation of Passover when the Savior was crucified:

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

You are not supposed to debate this issue. The Bible settles it 100% that Jesus ate Passover ahead of the Jews, even if a Pastor does not yet believe:

Gerhard:Re:Samie: <<<That same evening, He was arrested. When

morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, and later crucified. John recorded it was preparation of Passover when the Savior was crucified>>>

Since it is mutually agreed <<all four Gospels agree 100%>>, IT MUST BE THAT "Preparation-of-Passover" Day of Crucifixion in John 19:14 is 100% identical "the first day they KILLED the passover" in Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 17,20 Luke 22:7,14 --- "THE DAY BEFORE THE FEAST" John 13:1 and must be identical with Exodus 12:6 “the fourteenth of the month KILL the passover” Leviticus 23:15 “the very first day REMOVE leaven”.

Therefore “Preparation OF Passover”, _was_, the passover— its “very first day”, “the fourteenth day of the First Month”.

The sore finger sticking out is the 'middle-finger'. It

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sticks out because it has been chopped off and is conspicuous in its absence on the hands of both debaters Samie and the Pastor.

That middle finger has been bottled and shelved and labelled, “Passover’s BONE-finger”— “severed” / “BROKEN off bone" finger … of course.

The second of the “THREE days” of Yahweh’s Passover is amiss. So the Catholics masterly manufactured a prosthesis, trade marked, ‘STILL SATURDAY’ and sold at a conscience a piece. Their biggest trade-partners? Protestants mostly Seventh-day Adventists. 

Samie:The Lord Jesus Christ had already eaten Passover with

His disciples before His arrest that same night. This is BEYOND question.

When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, tried and crucified. John recorded the day He was crucified was preparation day of Passover:

NKJ John 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!"

NKJ John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

While the Jews were still preparing for Passover, our Savior had already eaten Passover the night before! There is just no hint of UNCERTAINTY that Jesus ate Passover a day ahead of the Jews, a fact ATTESTED TO by all four gospel writers.

In ACCORD with the law He said He came to fulfill, Jesus ate Passover on a full moon night, ahead by a day than did the Jews. Following their calendar, the Jews ate Passover a

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day late, most probably because crescent sighting was a day late making their calendar dates to fall OUT OF SYNCH with the lunar phase. On the other hand, our Lord through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of the lunar phases: He ate Passover on the night the moon was full. Our Savior followed the lunar phase God designed. The Jews followed the dates of their festival calendar the dates of which were out of synch with the lunar phases that month.

If it is to be insisted that the Jews ate Passover on a full moon, then our Lord's eating of Passover was not on a full moon, and He would have acted NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. But since the Master Himself said He came to fulfill the law, then it was the Jews who did not eat Passover on a full moon night.

Who erred: the Jews or the Lord? Even a first grader knows the correct answer.

Gerhard:Re:Samie: <<<The Lord Jesus Christ had already eaten

Passover with His disciples before His arrest that same night. This is BEYOND question.>>>

Certainly, and HERE ARE PROOF-SCRIPTURES: "My hour IS come", "at the table"."TAKE YOU, THIS, IS, MY BODY""TAKE YOU, THIS, IS, MY BLOOD""Ye may eat and drink at MY table in MY Kingdom :

AS MY FATHER APPOINTED UNTO ME ..."this cup THY WILL be done ..."being in AGONY - pascha ..."great drops of blood falling DOWN TO THE EARTH"this is your hour: indeed the POWER OF DARKNESS... and many more

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THIS, was HOW and WHAT Jesus ATE and DRANK --- the holy grail of his "SUFFERING-PASSOVER OF YAHWEH"!

Samie, it is NOT written anywhere, Indicative Predicative : Jesus <ATE> of anything on the table Himself.

Samie:The Lord said He will eat Passover with His disciples:Mark 14:14 ... Where is the guestchamber, where I shall

eat the passover with my disciples?Did He really eat?KJV Mark 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city,

and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 

17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Looks like the above verses tell us Jesus ate Passover with His disciples.

Gerhard:Ostensibly.Mark 14:14, ‘pou estin to kataluma mou hopou to pascha

meta to mathehtohn mou PHAGOH’ – “I MAY, EAT”. 'phagoh' Aorist Subjunctive.Mark 14:15,16 “There make ye PREPARATION for us”

– ‘ekeî hetoimásate hehmîn’ … “and THEY-MADE-PREPARATION FOR the passover” - ‘kai hehtoímasan to pascha’. They were not partaking in, passover. 

Samie:Yes, not yet, in that verse, v16. It's in the next verse:Mark 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the

twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say

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unto you, One of you which eateth with meshall betray me.They were eating the Passover they earlier prepared in

verse 16!

Gerhard:They were partaking IN - Dative, 'hehmîn' - "our

preparation". The Last Supper was for preparing for passover.Samie, why have you avoided the words of Jesus that He

"most certainly would (or will) NOT eat this passover with his disciples? 

"17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray Me."

"They" are "the twelve". But "JESUS told (them), I tell you, one of YOU truly / actually -- who is my trusted companion -- will betray Me."

I recommend you may for a change read a few exegetical commentaries. 

Either Jesus contradicted Himself that He would not PHYSICALLY eat the bread and wine, or He used figure of speech in the above Scriptures. In other words, Jesus "ATE" the 'Passover-of-Yahweh' a SPIRITUAL DIVINE MEAL NOT LITERALLY OF THE FLESH OF ANIMALS OR OF BREAD OR OF WINE on the table which He gave his disciples to eat but Himself did NOT eat a morsel of. 

Jesus emptied the cup of the LORD's Passover to the dredge passed his way in the Feast of the Lamb in Gethsemane. 

But that Pascha Suffering MEAL began in the room which the disciples found "PREPARED" for the Suffering “Servant of the LORD." Jesus' bread He had to eat was the temptations from hell. 

You love to see what you love to see, Samie, and hate what you don't love to see. 

He sent his disciples “TO PREPARE SO THAT WE

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MIGHT eat the passover // so that (they) WOULD eat the passover. EVERYWHERE either a Subjunctive or a subjunctive Future --- it was NOT the passover meal as such YET for anyone EXCEPT THE PASSOVER 'MEAL' OF YAHWEH HIMSELF!

The Synoptists described the PREPARATORY meal FOR the passover-killing that would go on the next day, and John CALLS IT “NIGHT ... BEFORE THE FEAST” --- it was NOT, “the Feast”. So the disciples thought Judas went out to buy something “FOR the Feast”.

Now it surprises me, the Wednesday crucifixionists always quick to protest no such things as buying and selling were allowed ‘on the holy feast day’ , insist the Last Supper was the meal of this holy feast day --- BUT ARE BLIND TO THE FACT JUDAS went out to buy unhindered. 

Ron:Samie, the Law tells us that the "appointed season" for

Passover is the 14th day of the month of Abib. You have to start counting the days of the month two weeks before Passover. There has to be something to count from, starting on the first day of the month. According to your astronomical "new moon" calendar, you imagine that people start counting the days of the moon [month] when there is no moon visible, no sign in the heavens, and nothing has happened that is detectable by the human senses. That notion is contrary to Scripture.

Genesis 1:14 tells us:Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the

heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signsand for seasons and for days and years; 

The word [mis]translated as "seasons" is the Hebrew word "moedim" which means "appointed times" (not Spring, Summer, Autumn, or Winter). 

Throughout Scripture "signs" are things that can be seen,

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heard, touched, smelled or tasted. You apparently want us change what "sign" means in Scripture so that you can include the astronomically calculated "new moon" that cannot be seen or detected by the human senses, as if it were a "sign" that could be used to determine God's "appointed times". 

Do you really think the astronomer's calculations or NASA's software are now ordained by God to determine God's "appointed times", usurping the role of the "signs" that God put into the heavens at Creation to determine His "appointed times"? This is not a trivial change. God appointed the "new moon" as one of His appointed times. If we change that "moedim" so that it is no longer based on a sign that can be seen in the heavens, and instead base it on complex calculations that very few people understand and actually know how to do, then we would no longer be celebrating God's appointed times at their proper "season". Those few people who know how to do the calculations could lead everyone else away from God's appointed times by simply making a mathematical mistake or by purposely deceiving people. The religion that God gave us in the Scripture does not rely on secret arts or secret knowledge. God's religion is recorded openly in the Bible so everyone who is part of Israel (by birth or adoption) can know what is expected and can verify that the leaders are leading correctly. The Bible says nothing about needing mathematical skills beyond simple counting.

SamieScriptures tell us that God appointed the moon to

determine seasons:KJV Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons:

the sun knoweth his going down.Your interpretation of this Psalm agrees with what is

written in the Law of God.

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Samie: Scriptures specify a full moon feast instituted in Egypt

and made part of the law in Israel:Psalm 81: 4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the

full moon, on our solemn feast. 5 For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob, 6 Who made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt.

The above verses tell us this full moon feast is a law in Israel and decreed for them when they came out of Egypt.

Ron:Your interpretation of this Psalm does not agree with

what is written in the Law of God. I believe your interpretation is faulty for these reasons:

The Psalms are not part of the Law of God.If you use a Psalm to add to the Law of God, then you

are violating the Law of God by adding to the Law (Deut 4:2, Deut 12:32).

There is no command in the Law of God telling anyone to blow trumpets on the day of the astronomical "new moon". However, there is a command requiring the priests to blow the trumpet to call the people to assemble (Num. 10). When calling people to gather at Jerusalem for Passover and Tabernacles that trumpet call would occur around the time of the astronomical full moon.

The words "full moon" appear in only some Bible versions and in some ancient manuscripts of Psalm 81:4. The other versions and manuscripts do not contain any words that refer to the full moon.

The verse does not define "full moon" as only the night closest to the astronomical "full moon" event (the hour when the moon is most directly opposite the sun as viewed from earth) as you insist it must be interpreted. The words "at the full moon" could be referring instead to the time of the month when the moon is brightly illuminated at night. It is common

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for English speaking people today to declare that "the moon is full tonight" on nights that are a few days before astronomical "full moon" and on nights that are a few days after the astronomical "full moon" event. You would make liars out of those people if "full moon" could only refer to the night (or day) of the astronomically calculated "full moon". You may be making a liar out of the author of Psalm 81:4 by insisting that "full moon" refers only to the night (or day) of the astronomically calculated "full moon".

The span of nights when the moon appears "full" is broad enough to include the Passover that occurs 14 days after the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon after sunset. So "at the full moon" would include the blowing of trumpets for the feast of Passover.

The "full moon" time of month also includes the days when the priests would blow the trumpet to call the people to assemble at Jerusalem for the "appointed times", as required by the Law of God.

The verse mentions three times for blowing the trumpets. It does not say those three events occur on the same day.

For half of the months that come and go, the astronomical "full moon" and the astronomical "new moon" events occur during the daylight hours in Israel. When those events occur during daylight hours it is impossible to observe those events from Israel.

Genesis 1:18 tells us that "God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night;" Because the lesser light (the moon) was not given jurisdiction over the daylight hours, it is unlikely that the "signs" that the moon "shows" to determine the timing of God's "appointed times" would occur during the hours when the moon has no jurisdiction. On the other hand, the first sighting of the sliver of new moon after sunset always occurs during the time of day when the moon actually has God-given jurisdiction.

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Samie:This feast instituted in Egypt on that night the Israelites

left Egypt is the Passover:Exodus 12:11 ... it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will

pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Clearly, the law specifies that the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL MOON.

Ron:This last passage says nothing about the moon at all. The

only thing that the Law actually specifies about the Passover in relation to the moon is that the Passover must start on the 14th day of the month. 

PKrauseExactly Ron!

Ron:You have apparently chosen to start counting the days of

a month at the time of lunar cunjunction. At that time of month there is no moon visible in the heavens (except during lunar eclipses), and there is nothing to see that would prompt a devout follower of the Bible to start counting the days of a moon or month. There is no historical evidence showing that the Israelites at the time of Jesus or at the time of Moses

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started counting the days of a month at conjunction. However, there is historical evidence that tells us that the Sanhedrin at the time of Jesus started counting the days of a month when the first sliver of moon was sighted in Israel by two reliable witnesses. 

The sighting of the first sliver of moon at the beginning of the month is a natural and reasonable marker for a person to start counting the days of a moon [month] because it coincides with the moon's visibility. It is natural to think, "This is the first day we saw the moon," or "This is the 14th day since we first saw the moon." It would be neither reasonable nor natural for a person (who did not have the calculations for lunar conjunctions available) to start counting the days of a moon [month] when the moon was not visible and had not been visible for a night or two and would not be visible again for another night or two.

I'm beginning to suspect, Samie, that you believe common people in Bible times were able to do the observations and calculations that your astronomical software does, even though you are unable to do those observations or calculations yourself without the help of electronic devices.

Samie:Passover is a full moon festival. This is beyond question,

Ron & pkrause. If you are SDA, you knew this. If not, then you are supposed to know this. 

"kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3.

Originally Posted By: BHT - TRANSLITERATED BHS HEBREW OLD TESTAMENT 2001. BHT database is Copyright © 2001 by Matthew Anstey.

v3. Tiq`û baHödeš šôpär BaK Kësè lüyôm HaGGënûv4. Kî cHöq lüyiSrä´ël hû´ mišP䆠lë´löhê ya`áqöbv5. `ëdût Bîhôsëp Sämô Bücë´tô `al-erec micräyim Süpat

lö´-yäda`Tî ´ešmä`

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From the New King James Version:Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New

Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day. 4 For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of

Jacob. 5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He

went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

The only FEAST instituted in Egypt is the feast of unleavened bread also called Passover. It was held the same night they departed from Egypt. see Exo 12.

The main issue in what we are now discussing is whether the Lord ate Passover on a full moon night or not. My position is that He did, because according to our Lord Himself, He came to fulfill the law, which obviously includes the instructions on when Passover is to be eaten. I had already proven from Scriptures that Passover is a full moon feast.

Ron:I agree that Passover occurs at the time of month when

the moon is "full"

Samie:Correct

Ron: I agree that Passover occurs at the time of month when

the moon is "full" or bright in the sky.

Samie:Wrong. The moon may be bright but NOT "full".

Ron:Passover is usually a day or two after the astronomically

calculated full moon.

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Samie:Not quite. In a lunisolar calendar that is IN SYNCH with

the lunar phases, 14th at evening when Passover is eaten, is ALWAYS full moon. That is by God's design.

Ron:Passover is usually a day or two after the astronomically

calculated full moon.You have not proven a Scriptural connection between

Passover and the astronomically calculated full moon.

Samie:I have. You closed your eyes you did not see. In fact, I

just stated the connection above.

Ron:You haven't even explained your methodology for

determining which day in Israel corresponds to the full moon dates calculated by your software.

Samie:The issue is, when did the Lord eat Passover in 31 AD?

My answer: on Tuesday evening, March 27, a full moon. It's your problem determining what date is that in the Hebrew calendar.

Ron:When I asked you to provide the command in God's Law

that Passover be celebrated on your calculated new moon day,

Samie:Your question is wrong. Passover is a FULL MOON

feast, NOT a new moon feast.

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Ron: you provided a passage from the Psalms instead. The

Law says nothing about Passover being a feast that occurs at the astronomically calculated full moon. You are wanting to add this to the Law, but it is not in the Law of God. 

Samie:It says in Psalms that Passover is a full moon feast and

that it is a law of God. Here again:Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New

Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day. 4 For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob. 5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

The only FEAST instituted in Egypt is the feast of unleavened bread also called Passover. It was held the same night they departed from Egypt. see Exo 12.

You just don't want to accept what the Bible says because it goes against what you were taught and believe in.

All we do next is trace back the first full moon occurrence after the vernal equinox in AD 31, the period for Passover observance. That full moon was on Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD.

Simple. Why make the issue complex, Ron?

Ron:I am not making the issue complex. You may think it is

complex because you are unable to answer the objections that are raised against your poorly presented speculations. 

Samie:You are imagining unanswered objections, my brother.

Speculations? Was Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD NOT a full moon? If you don't know that it was, don't blame it on me.

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Ron:It is your speculative theory that is actually more

complex. If a person were to actually do all the precise lunar observations and mathematical computations that would be required to start counting the days of a month using the method that that you erroneously assert was required by the Law of God, you would see how complex it really is.

Samie:If you can't understand it, don't blame it on someone

else. 

Ron:Your method only seems simple to you because you

don't understand what is actually required to make your system work.

Samie:I have given a correct full moon date: Tuesday, March

27, 31 AD. That proves I understand it. Prove that it's wrong. If you can't, then it's you who don't understand.

Ron:Your bluff is called. Have fun playing with your

astronomical software.

Samie:You are bluffing, my brother. Is Tuesday, March 27, 31

AD a full moon? If your answer is No, then sorry, but you are ignorant of the facts and that is not my fault. If you answered Yes, then you have no reason saying Samie is bluffing.

Ron:Re: Samie: <<<"kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and

that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3.>>>

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The word "kese" occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in Psalms, once in Proverbs, and never in the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew source that this word refers only to the one specific day of the month that corresponds to the astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest. 

Samie:If the Bible can't convince you, why would extrabiblical

sources can? 

Ron:The roots of this word indicate that it probably refers

instead to the period of several days when the moon is plump or brightly illuminated in the

Samie:Ps 81:3 says the feast instituted in Egypt was on a full

moon, but you insist on having it on different bright nights.

Ron:night sky. I have seen no evidence presented that "kese"

refers only to the day of the astronomically calculated full moon.

Samie:How many days is Nisan 14th at evening? More than

one?

Ron:You are anachronistically applying your modern

definition of the astronomically calculated "full moon" to the Scriptures that were written in a much earlier era.

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Samie:Aren't you preposterously wanting to relegate God's

design of the moon and its phases to be NOT the same now as it was before? The average lunar cycle had already been established, my brother. This is why moon phases can be determined precisely forward or backward in time. Now if you think it can't be done, then go ahead, prove it wrong.

Gerhard:The trouble for you is just that the Bible works like you

describe here, but does not start with the full moon, but with the new moon, and determines the full moon from the new moon’s occurrence and not vice versa. Sorry for you, Samie!

Samie:Again, Tuesday March 27, 31 AD was full moon. It was

on that nighttime that the Lord ate Passover with His disciples.

GE:Qouting Samie: <<<Ps 81:3 says the feast instituted in

Egypt was on a full moon, but you insist on having it on different bright nights.>>>

Samie, you have been shown to be the blind follower of the pro-Roman Catholic Easter activists. 'Full moon' does not EXIST in the entire Bible, and you have been SHOWN it.

Samie:Sorry but aren't you suffering from dementia, my

brother? Here's a previous post of yours: “Yes Samie, I do agree with you. And yes, it DID occur on a full moon night”.

Can I really take you seriously?Again, Tuesday March 27, 31 AD was full moon. It was

on that nighttime that the Lord ate Passover with His disciples.

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Gerhard:Says Samie! What if on another year (nearby or on the

same year for that matter) new moon occurred on a Wednesday night?!

You run away from answering! Why, you claim to have that kind of information at your

fingertips, but won't dare present it here.I saw years ago on 'Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac' a

Wednesday-night Thursday-daytime first after vernal equinox new moon which gave a Thursday / Friday full moon. 

Has NASA improved on Her Majesty? Watch Samie revert to Jesus' year of birth to answer ...! 

Ron:The word "kese" occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in

Psalms, once in Proverbs, and never in the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew source that this word refers only to the one specific day of the month that corresponds to the astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest.

Gerhard:Ron, I showed, Where does ‘keseh’ fit ?With “moon” – ‘yahrehagh’? 

“ordinances of the moon” Jeremiah 31:35 …“Brightness of moon” – ‘yakar’ Job 31:26“Brightness of moon” – ‘nogah’ Isaiah 60:19 … No!

With “moon” – ‘yehragh’?Deuteronomy 33:14Isaiah 60:20 “the moon shall not withdraw / wane”… No!

With “moon” – ‘levahnah’?Canticles 6:10 “fair as the moon”.

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Isaiah 24:23 “moon confounded”Isaiah 30:26 “light of the moon as the light of the sun” … No!

With ‘chohdesh’ – “month” 220 times—with “NEW moon” 20 times?… YES!

‘Chohdesh’ is used with ‘keseh’ - “time appointed” - ONCE: in Psalm 81:3, “Blow the trumpet in the moon / NEW moon / (beginning of) month - 'chodesh'; “in the appointed time / festival of the NEW moon - 'keseh'; “on our solemn feast of FIRST / NEW moon -‘chaq’; “day” - 'yom'.

Where does ‘keseh’ fit in texts with words for the “moon”? In any ‘full’ moon text or context?… NO!

ONLY in the context and content of texts which use the word and concept of the NEW moon!

Ron:The roots of this word indicate that it probably refers

instead to the period of several days when the moon is plump or brightly illuminated in the night sky.

Gerhard:Ron, I have also shown the probable <roots>

[etymology] of the word ‘keseh’,‘KESEH’Young’s Analytical Concordance: ‘time appointed’ 

Look at ‘chodesh’ – “moon”; ‘chadash’ - “new”; ‘chad’ – “sharp” / “cleft”; ‘chaq’ – “feast” / “solemn feast” / “first”.

The ‘ch’ // ‘k’ and ‘o’ // ‘a’ > ‘e’, plus ‘kese’ - ‘to appoint’, to form ‘keseh’ - “appointed feast”. 

“Appointed feast” of the ‘sharp’ / ‘new’ / ‘first sliver’-“moon” [as seen through the ‘cleft’ or ‘portals of the

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heavens’]. Young’s Analytical Concordance adds: “see ‘seh’” ‘Seh’ - “lamb” / “sheep” to form ‘keseh’ : “time

appointed” for ‘keseb’ - “sheep” / “lamb” to be offered FOR THE NEW MOON’S FEAST.

For no ‘full’ moon-feast! Now look at your list of ‘translations’—they are all

‘modern’: which tells its own story about their trustworthiness as far as Psalm 81 is concerned.

“Full moon” is a FALSE and FAKED ‘translation’.I do not hesitate to say WHY these modern quasi-translations use <<full moon>> for NO reason whatsoever in the Hebrew text. Their hoax surprises me not at all. 

It is because they want to create something out of the Scriptures to give Easter a Christian face. So this full moon monster is only an icon or idol of the heavenly no-gods they worship next to their chief object of superstitious veneration, ‘The day of the lord Sun’, Sunday and Easter Sunday.

Note that when the moon is <<plumb or brightly illuminated>> OTHER words than 'kehseh' is used, and note also that 'keseh' is used specifically in the context of the 'sliver' or 'sickle' of the moon's appearance in the sky. 

Samie:"kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew

word in Ps 81:3.

Gerhard:‘kehseh’ [nor ‘kehsehg’] is <<the Hebrew word for full

moon>>. Nor does <<Ps 81:3>> speak of the full moon. Samie thinks if he just ignores and turns a blind eye to

refutation, nobody else would have noticed that he was utterly proven to be in error.

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PKrause:Most of what Samie has to say, I'm in total disagreement,

but as far as "Full Moon" in the Bible, I do agree. Have you actually looked at a Hebrew Bible?? Obviously not. Here is the Jewish Online Bible with commentary by the Rabbi most Jews consider the greatest Rabbi. Psalms 81:4. Sound the shofar on the New Moon, on the appointed time for the day of our festival. 

and here is his commentary of this verse: on the New Moon: When the moon renews itself. 

on the appointed time: The appointed day for it, and so (Prov. 7:20): “on the appointed day…) he will come home”; to the appointed time that had been fixed. 

and I shall fill it: According to whatever you ask I will fill.

Gerhard:PKrause, the rabbi speaks of the _NEW_ moon. 

... and ...... a bag of money is not the moon. By the way, the "goodman took a bag of money and is

gone a long journey. The bag had been full. The chances are the goodman would return with an empty bag the story sounds to me ....

The rabbi has it cart before the horse. Proverbs 7“19 My husband is not at home. He parted on a long

journey. He took a bag of money [‘keseph’ 112 times; “silver” 286 times] with him”—, when the moon – like the man’s bag – was like a “bag of silver”, ‘full’ or ‘filled’. 

“He will come home the very day when his silver will be FINISHED at the dark or new moon” [‘kesehg’]. 

These three words — ‘keseh’ in Psalm 81:3 , and ‘kesehg’ and ‘keseph’ in Proverbs 7:20 — are sounding much the same, but they by “a far journey”, are “apart” and

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opposite. ‘Keseh’ in Proverbs 7:20 as well as in Psalm 81:3 means

the NEW moon and NOT the full moon, no matter WHAT the best Jewish rabbis might have to say. 

Christians a priori will know better than they.

Gerhard:Another proof of what I am saying ……

Quote, Samie: <<<Sorry but aren't you suffering from dementia, my brother? Here's a previous post of yours>>.

Rather than let go of his inspiration, Samie will accuse a doubter of being insane.

Samie:You just don't want to accept what the Bible says

because it goes against what you were taught and believe in.

Gerhard:No Samie, You are the one who just don't want to accept

what the Bible says because you received revelations and inspirations and accept extra-biblical 'information' above the Scriptures. The Bible does not go against a full moon passover. IT IS NOT THE TRUE ISSUE! The true issue here, is, your Wednesday crucifixion HOAX.

Samie:Hoax? Let's see:1. Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD - Full Moon. The Lord ate

Passover with His disciples.2. Was arrested that same night.3. Brought to Pilate when morning came: Wednesday,

March 28, 31 AD.4. Was tried and then crucified. He died at around 3 PM.5. After 3 days and 3 nights, He resurrected early

Saturday morning, March 31, 31 AD.

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Can you show a similar chronology with any other set of dates starting from a Passover full moon as Scriptures specify?

Gerhard:YES, but not <<a similar chronology>>!!I can show the SCRIPTURES' chronology WITHOUT

depending on extra Biblical <information> and at the same time not be against extra Biblical <information>.

I can do it WITHIN the "THREE days" "appointed" the Passover of Yahweh" and don't need FOUR days like you do.

I can do it with DUE allocation of Jesus' "WHOLE-day BONE-day" of BURIAL "according to the Scriptures" "concerning the pascha of the Christ".

AND, I can do it WITHOUT CORRUPTING "after three days" … 

Samie:Then show it. What's taking you so long? Here's my

proof of "after three days":after 1 day from Wednesday = Thursday

after 2 days from Wednesday = Fridayafter 3 days from Wednesday = Saturday

Wednesday crucifixion coupled with Saturday morning resurrection before sunrise passes the test of "after three days". Where is your proof, please?

Gerhard:Stunning <proof>!I was busy telling you I can do it WITHOUT

CORRUPTING THE Scriptures like you must do to have a theory. The true <chronology> doesn’t need to CORRUPT "on the First Day of the week"; it does not need to corrupt “risen” or, “He appeared”. 

Samie:

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You don't need to corrupt it. "First Day of the week" translation in Mark 16:9 is already corrupted. 

Gerhard:et cetera et ceteraI can do it, thank God, with ONLY THE SCRIPTURES.Which I did MANY times before, on clubadventist.com. 

Samie:Owww? You did? Would you please do it again? I do

not grow tired showing my proof again and again, just like what I did above. Show your chronology with proof for "3 days and 3 nights" and proof for "after 3 days".

Your move...So where is that chronology? Show it, brother. Don't be

shy.The Savior specified 3 days AND 3 nights NOT just

"THREE days". Here's mine:day 1 = daytime Wednesday

night 1 = nighttime after sunset Wednesdayday 2 = daytime Thursdaynight 2 = nighttime after sunset Thursdayday 3 = daytime Fridaynight 3 = nighttime after sunset Friday until before sunrise Saturday

Wednesday crucifixion coupled with Saturday morning resurrection before sunrise passes the test of "3 days & 3 nights" specification of our Lord.

Show the proof of what you are claiming, brother. I have shown my proof.

I understand why there are those who disagree with my position. My position caught them by surprise, and not only that, it is SURPRISINGLY Biblically correct. That's why all their objections were all adequately addressed via Scriptures.

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Gregory:Nonsense.

Aspen:Me thinks someone spends way to much reading about

religious conspiracies.....This thread is mind boggling, for the wrong reasons!!

'Nonsense" is correct!!

Gerhard:Samie, Blah blah blah ….Let us not loose perspective totally.As far as this thread used the Word of God the

Scriptures, it is not <nonsense>.Even as far as this discussion used scientific extra

Biblical 'help', it is still not <nonsense>.Samie, I believe, refers to correct astrometric

information.That is where the nonsense starts SINCE he APPLIES

the scientific data on his OWN and wrong and arbitrary PRESUPPOSED YEAR for Jesus' Last Passover DERIVED from his OWN and wrong and arbitrary PRESUPPOSED YEAR for Jesus' BIRTH.

Samie will not consider ANY OTHER YEAR FOR JESUS' BIRTH because another year may not fit his preconceived idea of a FOUR days Last Passover and a WEDNESDAY Abib 14. 

THAT is where ALL Samie's NONSENSE originates from! 

Samie:Now this is really NONSENSE, Bro Gerhard. The issue

is year of Jesus' death, NOT birth. And please don't put your own words into another's mouth.

Proof that His death was in 31 AD:

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1. He was baptized in 28 AD, 15th year of Tiberius as emperor (Luke 3:1,22,23), whose reign started in 14 AD.

2. There were 3 Passovers recorded after His baptism. The first two were those referred to in John 2: 13, 23 & John 6:4. The 3rd is the one where He ate Passover with His disciples on the night He was arrested.

3. The first recorded Passover could not possibly be in 28 AD, the year He was baptized. Why? Because after His baptism, he spent 40 days and 40 nights fasting. His first miracle after baptism was done at Cana shortly before the first recorded Passover. Since this Passover was on the night following sunset of the 14th of the first month of the year, counting at least 40 days backwards from the 14th of the first month, will bring us to the last month of the preceding year. This means that since He was baptized in 28 AD, the first recorded Passover was in 29 AD.

4. The next Passover would then be in 30 AD, and the last one in 31 AD.

5. The Lord could not have been crucified in 30 AD because that will only be the 2nd Passover, and the Bible specifies THREE.

Therefore, the Lord was crucified in 31 AD.In 31 AD, the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox

was on Tuesday March 27. The Bible specifies that Passover is a full moon feast (Num 9;2, 3: Ps 81:3). The Lord through Whom God created the worlds (Heb 1:2), including the moon, could NEVER lose track of the lunar phases. He kept Passover on a full moon night and thus acted IN ACCORDANCE with law He said He came to fulfill. He was therefore crucified on Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD. After 3 days & 3 nights, He resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" or "early morning of the chief Sabbath", Saturday, as the Greek Scriptures specify in Mark 16:9.

The 2nd full moon AFTER the vernal equinox in 31 AD

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was on Wednesday, April 25. If He was crucified Friday April 27, then the Savior would have eaten Passover on the night following sunset of April 26, Thursday, a day AFTER the full moon, and He would NOT have acted in accordance with the law. Moreover, there are only 2 days and 2 nights from a Friday crucifixion and early Sunday morning resurrection. The Savior specified 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40).

Between March 28, 31 AD and April 27, 31 AD, the Biblical specifications point us to March 28, 31 AD as the crucifixion date of our Lord.

Objectors to this Biblically based position still call this NONSENSE.

Gregory:You should know better than to suggest that I suggest

that Scripture is nonsense.Here is what is nonsense:Quote: That's why all their objections were all

adequately addressed via Scriptures.It is the idea that you have adequately addressed the

issues.

Gerhard:Samie, you are HAUNTED by your dreams of Divine

Inspiration. That is the ONLY reason why you cannot admit plain common human MISTAKE! 

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Last Week / ‘Holy Week’

Sabbath"Six days before passover Feast Days" John 12:1 (… begin on Friday)

(Palm Sunday)Five days before "Feast Days" John 12:12 

(Monday)Four days before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)Mark 11:12 Matthew 21:18 Mark 11:15 Luke 19:45-48 Mark 11:19 

(Tuesday)THREE days before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)Mark 11:20,21,27 Matthew 22:23 Luke 20:1-8 Mark 13:1,3 = Matthew 26:2 "after TWO days (Wednesday Thursday) is Passover = “Son of Man CRUCIFIED" (… on Thursday)

(Wednesday) TWO days before "Feast Days" Luke 21:38 Matthew 26:3 = Mark 14:1-3 "after TWO days (Thursday Friday) is Feast = “Days of UNLEAVENED Bread" (… begin on Friday)

(Thursday—Wednesday night and Thursday day, the Fifth Day)One day before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)= “BEFORE the Feast” John 13:1= “PREPARATION of the Passover” John 19:14 = “NOT ON, the Feast” Mark 14:2= “WHEN they KILLED the passover…= “WHEN they REMOVED leaven” 

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= Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 Exodus 12:15a = Abib 14 (Thursday Abib 14)

(Friday)“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b = “The Preparation …= “… which is the Foresabbath …= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of passover. 

1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” the passover–Scriptures :–wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :– Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1. 

1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :– Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14

1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :– Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30

“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b = “The Preparation …= “… which is the Foresabbath …= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of passover. = FRIDAY!= Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– 

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the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.

2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– wherein Joseph begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:– “the first night” unleavened bread was eaten John 19:39Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40 

2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– when Joseph and Nicodemus had laid the body and had closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :– Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42 

“THE THIRD DAY”“The day after the sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER Leviticus 23:11,15= Abib 16, Friday night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....

3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–Lk23:56b

3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :– Mt27:62–663C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :– 

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First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :– Mt28:1–4. __________________________________________________

Abib 17, Saturday night and Sunday day = First Day ....

4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :– that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :– Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....” 

4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day, Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED); 

4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY); Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”. 

4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....” Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after sunrise).  Mt28:11–15 Guard to high priests.

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‘Full Moon in the Bible’by Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhnhttp://www.biblestudents.co.zahttp://www.thelordsday.wordpress.combiblestudents@imaginet.co.za

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