fr. barron and prof. popper–and popper’s critics

8/13/2019 Fr. Barron and Prof. Popperand Poppers Critics

1/6

7/2/13 2:r. Barron and Prof. Popperand Poppers Critics First Thoughts | A First Things Blog

Page ttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/

SEARCHFIRST THINGS

/

Masthead

Tristyn BloomMatthew Cantirino

Anthony EsolenGene FantGreg ForsterMatthew J. FranckCollin GarbarinoRobert P. GeorgeWilliam J. HaunLeroy HuizengaKatherine InfantineJosephKnippenbergDavid T. KoyzisRobert T. MillerMatthew MillinerDavid MillsMark MovsesianWilliam MummaNathaniel PetersR.R. RenoJames R. RogersRussell E. Saltzman

Matthew SchmitzKevin Staley-JoyceDavid TalcottAnna Williams

First ThoughtsArchive

MonthlySelect Month

SUBSCRIBER LOGIN LOGIN forgot password?| register

HOME PRINT EDITION ON THE SQUARE BLOGS ADVERTISING DONATE ABOUT US STORE SUBSCRIBE

Previous |Home| Next

Fr. Barron and Prof. PopperandPoppers CriticsThursday, June 20, 2013, 3:55 PM

Matthew J. Franck | @MatthewJFranck

The redoubtable Fr. Robert Barron, in one ofhis regular (and regularly illuminating)

forays into film criticism (when does this guy have time to go to the movies?),

reviewedthe new Superman movieMan of Steelat RealClearReligion. I

recommend the reviewnot sure about the movie, on the other handbut I was

struck by Fr. Barrons reliance on Karl Popper for his interpretation of Platos

Republic, in an essay otherwise pretty sensible.

Popper, hitherto known chiefly for his work in philosophy of science, ventured into

political theory with The Open Society and Its Enemiesin 1945,and identified Plato

as one of the enemies for the alleged teaching of his Republic, with its famous

abolition of private property, censorship and tight control of education, and its

abolition of the natural family and eugenic breeding among the guardian

class. Poppers book has remained perennially in print. But what really is the

teaching of theRepublic? Perhaps under the influence of Leo Strauss and Allan

Bloom, I have always read it (and frequently taught it) as a comedy, which gets

funnier every time I reread it. Like the best comedies, it has a very serious teaching

to impart to us, in this case about political life and much else besides. And thatteaching is notthe wonderfulness of philosopher-kings, selective breeding, the

employment of women as soldiers, and so on. Plato, in short, was not an idiot.

As for Karl Popper, some smart people thought hewas one. In 1950 he gave a lecture

at the University of Chicago, evidently a kind of audition for an appointment

there. This prospect alarmed Leo Strauss, who had arrived on the faculty there just a

year before. He wrote to Eric Voegelin, at LSU, to solicit his view of Popper, whose

Chicago lecture on social philosophy, Strauss said,

was beneath contempt: it was the most washed-out lifeless positivism

trying to whistle in the dark, linked to a complete inability to think

rationally, although it passed itself off as rationalismit was very

bad. I cannot imagine that such a man ever wrote something that was

worthwhile reading, and yet it appears to be a professional duty to

become familiar with his production.

Voegelin replied just eight days later, with a letter that would be framed and

displayed with a dedicated spotlight if there were a Museum of Academic

Smackdowns. Herewith just some of the choicer parts of it (these excerpts are from

Peter Emberley and Barry Coopers compilation of the Strauss-Voegelin

correspondence, published twenty years ago as Faith and Political Philosophy):

The opportunity to speak a few deeply felt words about Karl Popper to a

kindred soul is too golden to endure a long delay. This Popper has been

for years, not exactly a stone against which one stumbles, but a
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/david-talcott/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/william-mumma/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/william-j-haun/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/gene-fant/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/tristyn-bloom/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://twitter.com/@MatthewJFranckhttp://twitter.com/@MatthewJFranckhttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/feed/atom/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/kanye-wests-blood-on-the-leaves-an-anti-abortion-anthem/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/21/first-links-6-21-13/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/index.phphttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=CV7OYPBvTUe2vPOOAwgHTrIHID42xzI4DAAAQASDjnqkVUN6Q5o74_____wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgS-AU_Q9Il--BpzRN18YXD4OuvPVIi-604lhAl0W0N7xp-pv4107C3S7Doyv6Jzx0aS9KZbzRaYePgGCdUL9939CaIdfJLdf_nhTRR1zTxMq3b9uSBn9xM6QlvyrHgErpAGA2Sue3KeW3_mVAbk8Ki-NjuJk3bgt49pXdS2j1vUwS_AVPoJsY_1R8cmZ26nxQpp0QH1q58tRniqz6_8QI74piUe50QAoUHjFBYrqXZQ8u637QXbVEWj7PA649Uxl3fgBAGgBhQ&num=0&sig=AOD64_1aErDcnR0iCB9FAPx9nXmMLOAOnw&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/store&nm=1http://www.firstthings.com/index.phphttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=CV7OYPBvTUe2vPOOAwgHTrIHID42xzI4DAAAQASDjnqkVUN6Q5o74_____wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgS-AU_Q9Il--BpzRN18YXD4OuvPVIi-604lhAl0W0N7xp-pv4107C3S7Doyv6Jzx0aS9KZbzRaYePgGCdUL9939CaIdfJLdf_nhTRR1zTxMq3b9uSBn9xM6QlvyrHgErpAGA2Sue3KeW3_mVAbk8Ki-NjuJk3bgt49pXdS2j1vUwS_AVPoJsY_1R8cmZ26nxQpp0QH1q58tRniqz6_8QI74piUe50QAoUHjFBYrqXZQ8u637QXbVEWj7PA649Uxl3fgBAGgBhQ&num=0&sig=AOD64_1aErDcnR0iCB9FAPx9nXmMLOAOnw&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/store&nm=1http://www.firstthings.com/index.phphttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=CV7OYPBvTUe2vPOOAwgHTrIHID42xzI4DAAAQASDjnqkVUN6Q5o74_____wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgS-AU_Q9Il--BpzRN18YXD4OuvPVIi-604lhAl0W0N7xp-pv4107C3S7Doyv6Jzx0aS9KZbzRaYePgGCdUL9939CaIdfJLdf_nhTRR1zTxMq3b9uSBn9xM6QlvyrHgErpAGA2Sue3KeW3_mVAbk8Ki-NjuJk3bgt49pXdS2j1vUwS_AVPoJsY_1R8cmZ26nxQpp0QH1q58tRniqz6_8QI74piUe50QAoUHjFBYrqXZQ8u637QXbVEWj7PA649Uxl3fgBAGgBhQ&num=0&sig=AOD64_1aErDcnR0iCB9FAPx9nXmMLOAOnw&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/store&nm=1http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2013/06/19/superman_is_not_the_answer.htmlhttp://twitter.com/@MatthewJFranckhttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/matthew-j-franck/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/21/first-links-6-21-13/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/kanye-wests-blood-on-the-leaves-an-anti-abortion-anthem/http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/storehttp://www.firstthings.com/mastheadhttp://www.firstthings.com/donatehttp://www.firstthings.com/advertisinghttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughtshttp://www.firstthings.com/latest-featurehttp://www.firstthings.com/current-editionhttp://www.firstthings.com/index.phphttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=CV7OYPBvTUe2vPOOAwgHTrIHID42xzI4DAAAQASDjnqkVUN6Q5o74_____wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgS-AU_Q9Il--BpzRN18YXD4OuvPVIi-604lhAl0W0N7xp-pv4107C3S7Doyv6Jzx0aS9KZbzRaYePgGCdUL9939CaIdfJLdf_nhTRR1zTxMq3b9uSBn9xM6QlvyrHgErpAGA2Sue3KeW3_mVAbk8Ki-NjuJk3bgt49pXdS2j1vUwS_AVPoJsY_1R8cmZ26nxQpp0QH1q58tRniqz6_8QI74piUe50QAoUHjFBYrqXZQ8u637QXbVEWj7PA649Uxl3fgBAGgBhQ&num=0&sig=AOD64_1aErDcnR0iCB9FAPx9nXmMLOAOnw&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/store&nm=1https://ssl.drgnetwork.com/ecom/fst/app/live/web_user_maint?org=FST&publ=FT&pagemode=ahttps://ssl.drgnetwork.com/ecom/fst/app/live/web_user_maint?org=FST&publ=FT&pagemode=chttp://www.firstthings.com/index.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/anna-williams/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/david-talcott/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/kevin-staley-joyce/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/matthew-schmitz/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/russell-e-saltzman/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/james-rogers/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/rr-reno/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/nathaniel-peters/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/william-mumma/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/mark-movsesian/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/david-mills/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/matthew-milliner/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/robert-t-miller/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/david-t-koyzis/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/joseph-knippenberg/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/katie-infantine/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/leroy-huizenga/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/william-j-haun/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/robert-p-george/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/collin-garbarino/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/matthew-j-franck/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/greg-forster/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/gene-fant/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/anthony-esolen/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/matthew-cantirino/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/author/tristyn-bloom/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/feed/atom/http://twitter.com/firstthingsmaghttp://www.facebook.com/pages/First-Things/60035389681http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=Ct2tDPBvTUe6vPOOAwgHTrIHID7230ZADAAAQASDjnqkVUI-E2JT______wFgyYa3iZCkiBDIAQLgAgCoAwHIA50EqgTAAU_QrmqooWdhoZylKuYBnoOHAKy4oYuj1dyHohHFEDErAi82m5v94urj-3Wm9soUvbgQy9zM59aszXB9aIPzivKAsPc0t6DSzNA1_L5bEF3VHw5a45XvwWX0olahx_LJ1xjJ4ubExeMK8YisXy2BqSnx9v7Te0q-Pj6OFWnTjuCr33D__9DT6fBclyoslQ7jyvDca-PUKhgdfSfEQy6tX3BDEYc4jgGz_4yBgoZUYg9J3621_mBDAwT5gcx03MsCzOAEAaAGFA&num=0&sig=AOD64_2a3BBUqsiE4Qkz8WC32WBbYtRnqQ&client=ca-pub-8688918090943010&adurl=http://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.php


2/6



troublesome pebble that I must continually nudge from the path, in

that he is constantly pushed upon me by people who insist that his

work on the open society and its enemies is one of the social science

masterpieces of our times. This insistence persuaded me to read the

work even though I would otherwise not have touched it. You are quite

right that it is a vocational duty to make ourselves familiar with the

ideas of such a work when they lie in our field; I would hold out against

this duty the other vocational duty, not to write and publish such a

work. In that Popper violated this elementary vocational duty and stole

several hours of my lifetime, which I devoted in fulfilling my vocational

duty, I feel completely justified in saying without reservation that this

book is impudent, dilettantish crap. Every single sentence is a scandal,

but it is still possible to lift out a few main annoyances.

Voegelin proceeds to do just that, in some detail, remarking along the way that

Popper is philosophically so uncultured, so fully a primitive ideological brawler,

that he is not able even approximately to reproduce correctly the contents of one

page of Plato. He concludes his judgment thus:

Briefly and in sum: Poppers book is a scandal without extenuating

circumstances; in its intellectual attitude it is the typical product of a

failed intellectual; spiritually one would have to use expressions like

rascally, impertinent, loutish; in terms of technical competence, as a

piece in the history of thought, it is dilettantish, and as a result is

worthless.

A few months later Strauss belatedly thanked him for this letter, saying he had

shown it to a trusted and influential colleague, who was thereby encouraged to

throw his not inconsiderable influence into the balance against Poppers probable

appointment here [at Chicago]. You thereby helped to prevent a scandal.

And that, gentle readers, is apparently why Karl Popper did not wind up teaching at

the University of Chicago. And why I have resolved never to read The Open Society

and Its Enemiesfor any light it attempts to shed on Platos Republic. Life is too

short for impudent, dilettantish crap. For Plato, on the other hand, one must make

some time.

Comments (12)

12 Comments

George Sim JohnstonJune 20th, 2013 | 4:25 pm

Be all this as it may, Poppers idea of falsificationthat a scientific theory is

not scientific if it explains too much, can be adjusted to fit any data, and is

basically not falsifiablehas proven a useful tool in exposing the flaws of

Marxism, Freudian psychology, and Darwinism in its harder forms. These

theories manage to explain any contradictory evidence that happens appear.

Darwins explanation of why there are both winged and wingless beetles on

the island of Madeira is a classic example. Its like shooting an arrow at a

barn wall and then painting the target around it.

advisory opinionJune 20th, 2013 | 4:48 pm

Shorter Franck: I havent read the book, but its crap and the author is an

idiot.

I got the vivid sensation of watching your mind whir while it closed upon

itself, as you worked through an argument that turned wholly on invective

Like 41250 100 0reddit 2
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106083http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106075http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comments


3/6



and ad hominem.

Very Leiterish.

Then the conceit that you are closed-minded and proud of it. What a rebel

you are, Franck. Hubris upon conceit, really: we dismiss The Open Society

and Its Enemies because it is an exercise in impudence.

I think you need to reflect, and have a quiet word with yourself.

Daniel PropsonJune 20th, 2013 | 5:47 pm

Certainly The Republic is complex, and certainly Plato realizes how

outlandish some of the ideas are, but I dont see why it follows that the

political proposals are not meant seriously. This does not mean that Plato

meant to enact them, of course. But Plato thought that he was creating the

most just society possible, under the provisional theory that justice is a

harmony in the city.

I dont see what is obviously idiotic, to the Greek mind, about selective

breeding, for example. Nor do I see why Plato would reject the idea of

philosopher kings. So many aspects of Platos politeia are profound and

inspiring that it is sort of ad hoc to say that Plato rejected all of the aspects

which we think are silly.

As for Popper, he was right at least insofar as he said that Plato was an

enemy of the open society. But Im not sure that Poppers defense of the

open society is any better than Platos defense of a closed society.

Matthew J. FranckJune 20th, 2013 | 7:14 pm

Dear advisory opinion: Come now. Poppers thesis about Plato is famous. I

know his evidence very wellPlatos Republicand I regard his thesis as a

failure in light of that evidence. But more than that: my view is fortified by

the testimony of two brilliant men who knew Plato better than most, who

disagreed with each other about many things but not about the insipidshallowness of Poppers book. I quoted the choicer parts of Voegelins

letter, but what I left out contains ample support for the judgment he shared

with Strauss.

Life is too short to read every book there is, even in ones own fields of

professional interest. We rely for much of our decision-making on what to

read on the opinions of others whom we trust, in book reviews and scholarly

judgments of various sorts. We sometimes err in trusting these secondhand

accounts, or in mistrusting them. But we cannot get along without relying on

the opinions of others to a very great degree.

Knowing what I know myself about Plato, what I am reliably told about

Poppers view even by his admirers, and what two serious men had to say

about a book they held in contempt (a book treated seriously, so far as Iknow, by no working Plato scholars), I feel quite safe in reserving my time

for other reading. This isnt being closed-minded. This is exercising rational

judgment.

David LaymanJune 20th, 2013 | 8:41 pm

The first philosophical essay I wroteat the University of Chicago, no less

was on something like Existentiality in the Structure of the Platonic
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106139http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106115http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106095


4/6



Dialectic. I got an A on it.

Now Im curious: please explain how the Republic is a comedy.

David NaasJune 20th, 2013 | 9:15 pm

While I have read neither Popper nor Strauss (life IS too short, after all) I

have read much of Plato (in English translation not having any ancient

Greek), and have concluded that no matter what position one takes, Platocan be lent to both support or contradict (with suitable twisting, anyway).

Not having read any Strauss, my impression is that he is a conceited ass,

whose orbiter dicta are not worth an hour of my life to contemplate.

Wow, this intellectual snobbishness works any which way, does it not?

I did read the Fr. Barron piece before I found this one, and, not having a dull

axe, thought that Popper was used to illustrate a point more Barron than

Popper, although, not being a pugilist of the academic brawling culture, it is

easy for ME to say, I Could Be Wrong.

Michael PSJune 21st, 2013 | 3:31 am

One recalls Pascal: We can only think of Plato and Aristotle in grand

academic robes. They were honest men, like others, laughing with their

friends, and, when they diverted themselves with writing their Laws and the

Politics, they did it as an amusement. That part of their life was the least

philosophic and the least serious; the most philosophic was to live simply

and quietly. If they wrote on politics, it was as if laying down rules for a

lunatic asylum [un hpital de fous]; and if they presented the appearance of

speaking of a great matter, it was because they knew that the madmen, to

whom they spoke, thought they were kings and emperors. They entered into

their principles in order to make their madness as little harmful as possible.

Mike Walsh, MMJune 21st, 2013 | 6:45 am

We cannot get along without relying on the opinions of others to a very

great degree. Amen, Mr. Franck, especially with regard to Voegelin.

Reading him as an undergraduate inoculated me against much of the

intellectual pathologies I encountered in the seminary.

Charles E FlynnJune 21st, 2013 | 7:51 pm

Karl Poppers Logic of Scientific Discovery explained the demarcation

between science and pseudo-science, a subject that arose in Poppers mind

when he wondered why Einstein was a scientist, and Freud and Marx were

quacks. For this accomplishment, which was described as a service to

humanity, he was knighted.

David LaymanJune 22nd, 2013 | 8:34 am

So Plato was funny. So is Jon Steward. Doesnt mean I interpret his routines

as a positive source for political or moral guidance. Im still trying to figure

how the comedy in Plato enables us to makes use of the proposed fascist
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106424http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106403http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106300http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106246http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106150


5/6



state in The Republic.

Sure, Plato was nothing if not dialectical. Maybe in saying x he really meant

not-x, or at least z. Im still curious for a hint of what exact dialectical

transformation Prof. Franck is proposing.

Michael PSJune 23rd, 2013 | 3:51 am

David Layman wrote, Im still trying to figure how the comedy in Platoenables us to makes use of the proposed fascist state in The Republic.

One suggestion is contained in Pascals remark that I quoted above; Plato

was laying down rules for the government of the hpital de fous which is

any state created by and for fallen man. It is a sustained satire on the nature

of fallen man. Even a pagan, like Plato, could see there is in man some great

source of greatness and a great source of wretchedness, although he had no

way of divining the source of these astonishing contradictions.

David LaymanJune 23rd, 2013 | 1:02 pm

@Michael PS:

I agree that is a possible interpretation but it seems to me to be non-

responsive to the question.

Prof. Franck specifically says that Platos teaching is not the wonderfulness

of philosopher-kings(etc.).

So what isit about? IfRepublicis entirely a via negativa, then how can it

possibly be philosophically useful? It might be historicallyuseful as an

ironic response to the particular politics of the post-Peloppenesian War

classical city-state, but thats not what Franck seems to be proposing.

It seems to me that he wants to have his cake and eat it too: to use Plato

philosophically in contemporary reflection, and then, when the ethical-

political unintelligibility is pointed out, to respond, But Plato is comic (or

ironic, or sardonic, or whatever the exact literary genre is thought to be).

I repeat my question: what is the positive political-ethical content of

Republic?

Leave a Comment

Name

Email Address (will not be published)

Website (not required)

Note: All comments are held for moderation.
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106507http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/fr-barron-and-prof-popper-and-poppers-critics/#comment-106486


6/6



Submit Comment

Comment Policy:We welcome comments that contribute to the

discussion of an issue raised in this article. Comments are moderated

for content and length. Those that are over 300 words or that do not

advance the engagement of the topic will be deleted.

1900characters available

Notify me of follow-up comments by email.

Notify me of new posts by email.

LINKSHomeCurrent IssueAbout UsAdvertisingContact UsMediaRSS Feeds

Kindle & iPad EditionsStoreAffiliate BooksPrint SubscriptionWeb Subscription

BLOGSFirst ThoughtsDr. BoliPeter LeithartKinship & CultureMaureen MullarkeyPostmodern ConservativeHelen Rittelmeyer

FIND USFacebookTwitter

[email protected]. 212.627.1985Legal/Terms and Conditions
http://www.firstthings.com/terms-conditionsmailto:[email protected]://twitter.com/firstthingsmaghttp://www.facebook.com/pages/First-Things/600353896812http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/helen-rittelmeyer/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservativehttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/maureen-mullarkey/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/kinship-and-culture/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/drboli/http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughtshttp://www.firstthings.com/websub.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/subscribe.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/affiliatebookshttp://www.firstthings.com/storehttp://www.firstthings.com/appshttp://www.firstthings.com/rssfeeds.phphttp://www.firstthings.com/mediahttp://www.firstthings.com/contacthttp://www.firstthings.com/advertisinghttp://www.firstthings.com/mastheadhttp://www.firstthings.com/current-editionhttp://www.firstthings.com/

fr. barron and prof. popper–and popper’s critics

Documents