F i l e N o . 9110009

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW

LIEUTENANT MURRAY MURAD

I n t e r v i e w D a t e : O c t o b e r 4 , 2001

T r a n s c r i b e d b y L a u r i e A . C o l l i n s

M. MURAD

MR. CAMPBELL: Today is October 4th at

10:30 in the morning. We're in conference

room 4E21 at headquarters. My name is

Patrick Campbell, Fire Marshal, here to

conduct an interview with Murray Murad about

the occurrence of September llth.

Also present in the room is --

MR. STARACE: Michael Starace, Fire

Marshal.

LIEUTENANT MURAD: Murray Murad,

Lieutenant Investigator with Bureau of

Investigations and Trials.

Q. Okay, Murray, we're just coming here

and trying to do a fact-finding mission of what

you saw on September llth in the morning of the

plane crash and the incident that happened at the

World Trade Center. Just tell us what you saw

and did that day.

A. Well, I was conducting business down on

Greenwich and Liberty at Engine 10, Truck 10, on

that day. I happened to walk through the

quarters around 8:35 and I asked to speak to the

officer in charge of the truck -- I think that

was Captain Mallery; I think it's

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M-A-L-L-E-R-Y -- I needed t o speak t o one o f t h e

f i r e m e n . I t s o happens who I was l o o k i n g f o r ,

t h e f i r e f i g h t e r was t h e r e .

So we went u p s t a i r s and we s t a r t e d t o

p r e p a r e t h e paperwork. I was conduc t ing a

c o n f i d e n t i a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n a t t h e f i r e house . I t

was abou t 8:41 t h a t we h e a r d a p l a n e h o v e r i n g

o v e r t h e f i r e house . I t sounded l i k e t h e p l a n e

was r i g h t on t o p o f u s . At t h a t t i m e t h e c a p t a i n

was u p s t a i r s . He was t a k i n g a shower i n t h e

o f f i c e and I was conduc t ing t h e work w i t h t h e

f i r e f i g h t e r .

The c a p t a i n came o u t and s a i d : "What 's

go ing on? T h i s i s a n o - f l y zone. There s h o u l d

be no p l a n e s o v e r h e r e u n l e s s t h i s i s a m i l i t a r y

p l a n e , a p l a n e i n t r o u b l e . " Othe r t h a n t h a t ,

t h e r e was r e a l l y no c l u e .

So abou t two o r t h r e e minu tes a f t e r

h e a r i n g i t , you h e a r d something l i k e r e v v i n g . We

took a l o o k , and, boom, t h e n o r t h tower i s h i t .

So what happened was everyone l e f t t h e house

e x c e p t f o r t h e c a p t a i n , because he a l r e a d y had

h i s r e l i e f . What I ' m assuming i s t h a t h e ' s go ing

t o man t h e house . His r e l i e f was t h e r e .

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They a l l t ook o f f . The e n g i n e and t h e

t r u c k took o f f I guess t h e y b o t h were r e spond ing

t o a p r e - a r r a n g e d s t a g i n g l o c a t i o n when t h e World

Trade C e n t e r i s i n v o l v e d i n some k ind o f major

i n c i d e n t . And t h e y a l l t ook o f f .

So what happened was p e o p l e were

runn ing o u t o f t h e b u i l d i n g . We g o t a c o u p l e o f

i n j u r i e s . We were t r e a t i n g them.

Q . Out o f t h e b u i l d i n g , o u t o f t h e Trade

Cen te r?

A. Out o f t h e Trade C e n t e r , yeah. I d o n ' t

know which Trade C e n t e r b u i l d i n g t h e y came o u t

o f , b u t i t was e i t h e r t h e n o r t h o r t h e s o u t h

b u i l d i n g .

I t was v e r y minimal, l i k e f i v e , s i x

p a t i e n t s . They came w i t h v e r y , v e r y minor

i n j u r i e s . There was a p o l i c e o f f i c e r i n t h e f i r e

house . I a sked him: L i s t e n , can you g e t an

ambulance h e r e , we have a c o u p l e minor i n j u r i e s .

We need an ambulance a t t h e s t a g i n g l o c a t i o n

h e r e .

The ambulance comes i n . The f i r s t EMT

t h a t walks i n , he s p r a i n e d h i s a n k l e . So he was

n o t much o f a h e l p , b u t he t r i e d t o g e t t h e s e

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people as comfortable as possible.

Let me go back. Let me go back one

second before this. After the first plane hit,

we went downstairs after everyone took off. I

was there downstairs for maybe seven, eight

minutes.

I went back upstairs because I wanted

to get something out of my bag. Maybe about

10 to 12-minutes after that first plane, I heard

another plane. Then I said to myself, we're

being attacked.

I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run

downstairs and look up, that I saw the second

plane strike the south tower. It was such a

vicious hit and such a precision hit, it was

unbelievable.

Still we didn't have that many more

people coming into the fire house, just regular

civilians hanging around. They were looking at

everything else like that. So pretty much

everything was pretty much stabilized in the fire

house. The captain was still the only one there.

At that point there were two fire

marshals that came to the house. They wanted to

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borrow some equipment. I can't identify who they

were. I forget what they looked like. They got

some gear from the house and then they took off.

So I only saw them for a second. I only

determined they were fire marshals because they

had their jackets on.

So at this point what I did was I went

around the corner to Liberty and Greenwich to

tell the people listen, just keep walking, just

keep walking as far as you can, just stay away

from the buildings.

I got to the American Stock Exchange

building. A guy came out and asked me what do

you think we should do? I said listen, if it was

me, I tell you in one word, R-U-N, run, just

leave. Oh, we have a protocol, for this and

that. Listen, you've to get your people to

safety. I don't think being in the building is

that safe. But this is the American Stock

Exchange. I said listen, you do what you have to

do. We have a couple of retired cops on the job

here. So one of them called me over. I told him

the same story. I said listen, you guys need to

get out of here, just for safety reasons. Again,

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he told me that they have their protocol that

they do.

So I continued on my little excursion

here trying to get people out of the stores, out

of the buildings. I went to all of the shops

right behind the fire house. I said listen, just

leave your building, just leave.

Q. This is on Greenwich Street?

A. Yeah, right on Greenwich and Liberty,

right behind the fire house, right on -- is it

Cider or Cedar?

Q. Cedar?

A. Cedar. They have all the little coffee

shops there, bagel stores, gourmet shops there

with all the foods. I told them just leave,

just -- don't even close your business, just walk

out and leave. They're telling me they're okay,

they're okay. Now it's getting a little

frustrating because I said listen, you should

really leave. Don't lock your door, but let your

employees go. That didn't seem to work.

So I went back into the fire house to

see what I could do. The EMS unit was trying to

treat a couple of people. We had a guy with a

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broken leg, possibly, and maybe one patient with

second degree burns but nothing life-threatening.

All the injuries in the fire house were minor.

There were really no life-threatening injuries.

So in a matter of 15, 20 minutes, the

captain yelled out and you heard this roar. All

he said was run to the back, it's coming down.

And we all started running to the back of the

fire house.

I know the design of Engine 10, Truck

10. It's on the corner, pretty wide. Then as

you go into the house it narrows into the

hallway. It has a phone. It has a TV room.

Then it has a bathroom and a kitchen, which I

totally forgot about, the kitchen during the

collapse.

Everyone's running down to the basement

or upstairs. One of the firefighters, who must

have come in when they were calling all these

guys in, I don't know who they were, said go

upstairs, go upstairs. A lot of people didn't

want to go upstairs because they were afraid.

The building is coming down upstairs.

So as we were running, we were picking

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up t h e i n j u r e d p e o p l e . They would f a l l , we would

s t o p , two p e o p l e p i c k them up.

Q . S t i l l i n t h e house?

A. S t i l l i n t h e house . Then i t came down.

From t h e implos ion , we a l l g o t thrown and a l l

t h a t s t u f f came i n t h e house , a l l t h a t d e b r i s ,

a l l t h a t c o n c r e t e and a l l t h a t f i b e r g l a s s . Name

i t , i t was i n t h e r e . I t was i n c r e d i b l e . Then i t

s t a r t e d g e t t i n g d a r k , d a r k e r . You c o u l d n ' t even

s e e i n f r o n t o f you.

Q . I n s i d e ?

A. I n s i d e t h e f i r e house . You c o u l d n ' t

even s e e . I c o u l d n ' t even s e e i n f r o n t o f my

f a c e . Then i t became v e r y , v e r y b l a c k . We were

t r y i n g t o g e t o u t t h e d o o r . The back e n t r a n c e

was b locked w i t h a l l t h e r u b b l e . Somehow t h e y

were a b l e t o g e t t h e door open. Again I t h i n k

most o f us f o r g o t abou t t h e k i t c h e n . We were a l l

t r y i n g t o go o u t th rough t h e back . So everyone I

t h i n k g o t o u t .

So what happened was I g o t o u t and I

went t o s e e what was go ing on. I t was a

n igh tmare . Cars were t o s s e d . I mean, a l l t h a t

s t u f f was i n t h e a i r , on t h e s t r e e t .

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So I walked up t o T r i n i t y P l a c e . I t

j u s t s o happens I needed a mask, you know. I

happened t o s e e Mat ty James who was i n a J e e p . I

s a i d Mat ty , you g o t a mask? He s a i d : " I have a

c o u p l e o f S c o t t p a c k s . " I d i d n ' t want t o t a k e

one because t h e y had a c o u p l e o f f i r e t r u c k s t h a t

were hanging o u t r i g h t i n f r o n t o f him. I d o n ' t

know what f i r e t r u c k s t h e y were, b u t t h e y looked

k ind o f b e a t e n up from t h e e x p l o s i o n .

Q . T h i s was on where?

A. On T r i n i t y P l a c e .

Q . On T r i n i t y ?

A. And Cedar .

Q . Cedar .

A. R igh t , r i g h t up t h e r e .

Q . They were pa rked t h e r e , and t h e y were

smashed?

A. I d o n ' t know i f t h e y were r e a l l y

smashed, b u t t h e r e was a l o t o f d e b r i s on them.

I o n l y saw one o r two. I c a n ' t r e a l l y i d e n t i f y

them because t h e r e was s o much d e b r i s i n t h e a i r

and on t h e ground. The p i c t u r e s t h a t you s e e ,

t h a t ' s what was go ing on.

So he s a i d t o me: "Hop i n my c a r , I ' l l

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give you a ride, because there's a cop, he's

giving out masks on the corner." Meanwhile I

can't see, my eyes are so red and irritated and

I'm coughing up all the soot and everything. So

I got a mask from the cop.

Then there was like a little cappuccino

store right there. I knocked on the door and was

let in. Listen, can I use your facilities here?

He said oh, yeah, come on in, wash up. I just

wanted to wash my face and get all that stuff out

of my eyes. He said hey, have some water. He

gave me a bottle of water. I was there about 15

minutes. Then I started walking out.

I walked about two, three minutes, and

all of a sudden I heard a plane. Now, I'm like

the only one walking on this block. I said oh,

my God, we're being attacked again. Someone said

it could have been a B15, a U.S. plane up in the

air. Actually, what I think it was, was

simultaneously the plane and the north tower

coming down. So that's what the sounds were. I

heard that rumble.

So I started going back to the area

where Liberty Street was. I went up to Liberty

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Street. Everything's destroyed, everything, all

the buildings around it. The only thing standing

was the fire house.

I re-entered the fire house. I spotted

a chief. I think it was Philip Burns only

because someone called his name. A couple of

firemen were in there. There was Firefighter

Peter D'Ancona. He was there. He was assigned

there. I saw him. He was looking for gear.

There was no gear to be found for these guys, no

turn-out coats, no nothing. Everything was gone.

Guys were coming in. A couple of

companies were coming in just trying to assist.

It was still dark out.

What happened was everybody got out of

the house safely. I asked the captain where is

everybody? He said everyone's out, everyone's

fine, everyone's good. There was nothing else to

do. Then I spotted the two EMTs that were

assigned to the location. I said listen, I have

a car --

Q. Do you remember their names?

A. No, I don't. The ambulance was

destroyed in the collapse. I don't know if it

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was t o t a l e d , b u t t h e r e was a l o t of damage t o t h e

v e h i c l e .

Q.

A.

10 house

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Where was t h a t v e h i c l e ?

I t was parked r i g h t i n s i d e t h e 10 and

On t h e s i d e ?

Right i n s i d e .

Oh, i n s i d e ?

I n s i d e , r i g h t . They backed i t up. I

d o n ' t know i f t h e y were going t o do t r i a g e o r

going t o t r a n s p o r t .

Q . How d i d t h e ambulance g e t damaged?

A. A l l t h e d e b r i s from t h e c o l l a p s e of --

Q . So i t was o u t s i d e ?

A. I t was i n s i d e . From t h e implosion,

e v e r y t h i n g j u s t came i n s i d e .

Q . The doors were open?

A. The doors were open.

Q . Oh, t h e doors were open?

A. Yeah. They shou ld have been c l o s e d ,

b u t I d o n ' t t h i n k -- no one expec ted w i t h i n an

hour t h e c o l l a p s e . I t was an awful t h i n g .

Q . Where d i d you park?

A. I parked down on Greenwich between -- I

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think it's Carlisle and Rector. That's where I

was parked.

Q. So you were down a little further?

A. Yeah. Because what happened was when I

got to the house it was almost changing shifts

and I didn't want to take a parking spot up,

because they double park there and everywhere

right around the corner. It was still early. I

said you know what, let me just park up further.

I found a spot, I pulled the car in, and then I

just walked up to the fire house.

Q. You never made it to the towers? You

never went near the towers?

A. No, that was just from my location of

being right at 10 and 10. That was the closest I

was.

Q. Philip Burns was in there during that

whole time?

A. I only saw him when I came back after

the second tower collapsed. I'm only saying it

was Philip Burns because someone said that was

Chief Burns.

Q. That was after the second?

A. After the second collapse.

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Q . When t h e f i r s t one was h i t , you were

o u t s i d e ?

A. No, I was a lmos t i n f r o n t o f t h e house

a t t h e f r o n t d o o r s . The d o o r s were open.

Q . Which i s a c t u a l l y r i g h t a c r o s s t h e

s t r e e t ?

A. R igh t a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t . I t was on

L i b e r t y and Greenwich.

Q . You looked up and you saw t h e --

A. I d i d n ' t l o o k up. What happened was

t h e c a p t a i n j u s t -- we h e a r d a r o a r , and he j u s t

y e l l e d o u t i t ' s coming down, j u s t run t o t h e back

o f t h e f i r e house .

Q . Oh, no, when i t h i t -- d i d you s e e

i t -- were you o u t s i d e when i t h i t ?

A. No.

Q . You were i n s i d e ?

A. Yeah. We j u s t h e a r d a l l t h e rumble and

a l l -- t h e c o l l a p s e .

Q . I ' m s a y i n g you were i n t h e house when

t h e f i r s t p l a n e h i t ?

A. Yes.

Q . Did you go o u t a t a l l r i g h t a f t e r i t ?

A. When t h e f i r s t p l a n e h i t ? I d i d . I

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went outside.

Q. What did you see then?

A. I just saw the fire -- the smoke coming

out from the top from the north tower.

Q. Was there any debris?

A. Not at that time.

Q. No debris at all?

A. No. Stuff was coming down, but nothing

real major. After the second plane hit even more

stuff came down.

Q. I'm sorry, when the second plane hit.

A. When the second plane hit, it was just

a lot of fire, a lot of black smoke.

Q. Coming out?

A. Right. What happened was that we

looked up and then within a couple of minutes one

guy jumped -- an individual came out. It wasn't

like a jump, because they came out backwards.

Evidently from the explosion up on those floors

they got blown out. Someone else came down and

they were coming out. I only saw two people come

out.

Now we had more people congregating in

the fire house. We would just evaluate them, if

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they were injured. No, we're not injured. We

need a phone.

Of course the cell phones were not

working. The only cell phone that worked I think

was Nextel. It's a two-way portable radio,

practically, and you can have contact. You don't

even have to worry about dialing. That's the

only phones that were working.

Everyone's cell phones were just not

working. My cell phone was dead. The beepers

were dead. Everything in the fire house was

dead. There was no communication whatsoever. So

we just relied on whatever information we were

able to get, which was actually really nothing.

Q. Were there a lot of plane parts or

anything when the second one hit?

A. Not that I saw, no.

Q. You said there were firemen around you.

Did you hear any transmissions going on?

A. No. It was all verbal among the

firemen just discussing. The radio communication

was fairly -- I didn't hear anything.

MR. CAMPBELL: Do you have anything

else, Mike?

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Q. Anybody else you actually recognized?

A. I recognized the captain. I recognized

one of the firefighters. I recognized a

lieutenant that was from BHS. I don't know his

last name. His first name is John. He was good

friends with Geoff Guja. Actually they went down

together. Geoff unfortunately didn't make it.

Q. You don't remember the fireman's name?

A. No, that was with him? I don't

remember.

Q. Captain Mallery, he stayed in the fire

house the whole time?

A. I believe so.

Q. Anything else? Is there anything else

you want to add? You can say anything about how

you felt or whatever.

A. It was something that if you were

there, to describe it, it was horrible. It was a

horrific act against us. It was something that

you would never, ever think would ever, ever

happen to this country.

When those towers came down, it was

like a sign of something. When all these

people -- I mean, war is war. They talk about

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Pearl Harbor. Bottom line is Pearl Harbor was a

military base, installation. It was peace time.

But here what happened was we got two

planes, our own planes, going into two towers and

killing almost 5,000 people. It was just an

awful day. It was day I'll never forget, just

the sounds of everything and the planes hitting.

The awful sound of hearing that plane over the

fire house. It was like it was sitting right on

top of the fire house. That's how close it was.

And then revving up the engine and then hitting

the north tower.

Q. You had said earlier people in the fire

house were alarmed when they heard the plane.

They felt something was wrong?

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Before it even --

A. I was upstairs. There was only the

captain and the firefighter. It was George

Bachmann who was up there with me. George

Bachmann was in Vietnam -- served in Vietnam. So

he knows certain sounds. Like we said, this is a

no-fly zone here. What's a plane doing here?

So as soon as that plane hit, they all

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took off. The only one left was the captain at

the time. Anybody else coming back, coming into

the house was either called in or off-duty guys

coming in, grabbing equipment. I saw the two

fire marshals. They were grabbing equipment.

They asked the captain: "We need some gear."

But again, no one ever expected it to

collapse like that. Just thankfully a pancake

rather than toppling over. That would have been

a nightmare. But in an hour the intensity of

that heat must have been incredible.

Q. Did any of the guys from 10 and 10 come

back after --

A. They were out. I understand that a lot

of them didn't come back.

Q. So none of them came back after, while

you were around?

A. No, no. They, I think, just went to

the location where they were supposed to go and

whatever assignment they were given. The problem

was when the south tower went down, I guess there

was no communication and people just went into

the north tower. That's what they were saying.

When the south tower came down, that

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was where t h e communication was. While

t h e n o r t h tower i s s t i l l up, b u r n i n g , guys were

j u s t t o l d go i n t o t h e b u i l d i n g . There was no

r a d i o communication. T h a t ' s what --

Q . You were by t h e s o u t h tower?

A. R i g h t .

Q . A f t e r t h a t g o t h i t , were t h e r e any

f i r e f i g h t e r s go ing i n t o Two World Trade from

L i b e r t y S t r e e t o r a n y t h i n g ?

A. No, t h e y j u s t -- everyone j u s t g o t i n

and t h e y went t o --

Q . No, I ' m s a y i n g when t h e second one h i t

when t h e y were r e spond ing when t h e y made t h e

o t h e r a l a r m f o r t h e second tower .

A. R i g h t .

Q . U n i t s were a s s i g n e d t o t h e second tower

o r t h e s o u t h tower . Did you s e e any o f them go

i n ?

A. No, no . A c t u a l l y I d i d n ' t s e e any

u n i t s from where I was. They must have a l l gone

t o Vesey o r t h e y were pa rked on Church r i g h t up

on t h e s t r e e t . I saw some f i r e a p p a r a t u s up on,

I t h i n k i t was, Church o r T r i n i t y o r r i g h t up

t h e r e on L i b e r t y S t r e e t .

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Q. Did you see any numbers or anything?

A. No.

MR. CAMPBELL: All right. This

concludes the interview. It's 10:52. Thank

you very much.