Is it possible that Tamil be a Prakrit

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23 Feb

..

Is it possible that Tamil be a Prakrit

though in the mainstream academics, this view is almost neglected now, there seems to bestill a belief amongst some than Tamil / Dravidian languages could have evolved from aform of Prakrit.

When we say as Prakrit, it means that the language is a descendent of Sanskrit. in thatsense, it would almost mean impossible, except for a few Sanskrit loanwords in ancientTamil.

is there a probability more than 10% that Tamil could be considered a Prakrit, in continuitywith the rest of the Indian languages?

23 Feb

Misanthrope

If the linguistic history of the subcontinent has been mapped right up to the pre-Sanskritera then I guess that there is 0% probability that this could ever be true.

Anyways, I never understand this obsession(or even the thought) of some people trying toencompass the Dravidian languages within the Sanskrit fold. Why never the Austro-asiaticor the Sino-Tibetan languages of India?

24 Feb

Miguel

Il y a aussi une certaine obsession d’attacher l’anglais au latin, ou comme une langue «mixte » ou tout simplement comme une langue « anglo-saxonne », qui a subi une « énorme» influence du latin « dès l’occupation romaine de la Grande-Bretagne ». La raison estsubtile, mais suffisamment claire pour qui la veut voire : s’approcher de l’héritage temporel

et spirituel de Rome, l’Empire et l’Eglise, et s’éloigner d’une parenté incomode : lesallemands.Je vois que le sanskrit et le latin, au-delà des semblances dans leurs histoires externes,suscitent aussi des mythes semblables.

24 Feb

Karthik

Prakrit does not mean derived from Sanskrit. It just meant a spoken dialect in thebeginning, and came to be used for all non-sanskrit languages later on. In that sense, Tamilis a prakrit. However, this cannot be interpreted in a modern linguistic context to meananything (like this is derived from that and so on), as Indians did not classify the spokenlanguages of their times based on modern ideas.

24 Feb

..

Why never the Austro-asiatic or the Sino-Tibetan languages of India?

i suppose its because those languages do not have an independent literary and culturalheritage as Tamil has. proving those languages to be descendents of Sanskrit is not going tobe of much use in the real world.

So for the Sanskritic fundamentalists, if Tamil is not to be a descendent of Sanskrit and atthe same time has a large corpus of reasonable and thoughtful ancient literature, then itmeans Sanskrit will get a new competitor for itself in terms of antiquity.

24 Feb

..

Karthik, ur post makes some sense on this topic.

25 Feb

Dibya (িদবয্)

@ Miguel:

I thank you for your contribution and insight, but I request you to please try to write inEnglish (even if it is not perfect), when posting in a thread which is otherwise in English.Please, try to stick to the language used by the thread starter.

Je vous remercie pour votre apport des idées précieuses; mais au même instant, je vousprie d'essayer d'écrire en anglais (même si ce n'est pas parfait) dans les fils, qui sont parailleurs en anglais. Merci d'utiliser la même langue que celle qu'a choisi l'initiateur du fil.

26 Feb

Ramakrishnan

I dont think anyone claims (or even want to think) that Tamil may be derived from Sanskritor the other way round, although I know that there are people who throw such wild ideas oninternet discussion forums. Those discussions are not worth commenting about though.

Most of the IA and Dravidian literature are undated. Apart from the Vedas (which we knowcan be roughly dated to the second millenium BCE) and the epics, old sutra literature, andbuddhist canon which may be dated to the first millenium BCE, most other IA and Dravidianliterature are datable only in the christian era.

Existence of literature from an independent language family (Dravidian in this case) doesnot imply we can build Dravidian's linguistic ancestry upto the second millenium BCE (Vedicperiod) or even to the Indus valley civilization.

So there may be no question of any competition or anything of that sort between thelanguage families to determine which has an older attested presence. I think that questionhas already been settled unless we come up with fresh inscriptions/literature that are olderthan what is known to us.

No, Tamil is not a prakrit (according to our current understanding), but in olden days, itmay have been called a prakrit simply to distinguish it as a crude form of speech contrastedwith sanskrit.

Kumarila Bhatta mentions in his Tantravarttika about "andhra-dravida bhasa" which seemsto imply that in his time, one could not distinguish clearly between telugu and tamil or thatthey were so similar even in the 7-8th centuries AD as to be classified as a single language.

26 Feb

Sumanth ಸುಮಂತ್

^^Kumarila Bhatta mentions in his Tantravarttika about "andhra-dravida bhasa" which seemsto imply that in his time, one could not distinguish clearly between telugu and tamil or thatthey were so similar even in the 7-8th centuries AD as to be classified as a single language.

Where does that put Kannada and TuLu? I for one, feel that Telugu, specially during thetime of Krishnadevaraaya had absorbed a significant amount of haLagannaDa (oldKannada).MalayaLam, we of course know, came to be known as a language separate from Tamizh alittle later (11th or 12th CAD).

26 Feb

Ramakrishnan

Tamil and Telugu are probably the most different from each other of the dravidianlanguages.

If they were to be grouped together as a single language in Kumarila Bhatta's time, Isuppose Kannada would have been largely identical to tamil or different at very minorlevels??

showing 11-20 of 24

26 Feb

Karthik

Kumarila Bhatta mentions in his Tantravarttika about "andhra-dravida bhasa"

Could you quote that if possible?

26 Feb

Unceasing

One cannot date or pre-date a language based on the availaible texts alone. it is anobsession to quote from a Sanskrit text and accept the jaundiced version of the writer.

Many a time Ramakrishan has come out with a referal from a Skt. txt that Prakrit wasunrefined language and Skt was refined simillar to the Sen Tamil and Kodum Tamil versionof Tamil.

In Kannada sometimes it is referred as Acchu Kannada ( which prpbably means as printedtext language)

So the definition of Prakrit is just an unrefined way of generalising the ignorance of whoeverdecided to make Prakrit as a synonym for languages, whose vocabulary had not yet beenclassified. This is simillar to the claim that those who are not Muslims, christians, Sikhs or

Parsees as Hindus by the constitution. There are hundreds of religion,belief and faith that isfollowed and Hinduism is a general term. It is not the lack of knowledge but an attempt toencompass unknown into the one known knowledge of the author/s. So. the ignorance ofthe Skt pundiits should not result in us becoming sheep. lt is not the lack of literature orinformation but a lack of will to follow "Sathya meva Jeyathe".

Language is dynamic only when spoken or used in any politically administrative way. SenTamil, Sanskrit or Acchu Kannada do not in itself create new vocabulary or sentencestrucrure or even grammatical rules. It is the spoken language that can create the rules andeven break it as necessary. This is probably what we all know as practitioners of speech.

Are the Andamanese language also Prakrit by any count? As they have not yet felt thedivine grace of Skt or is English the new flavour of humam civilisation now?

5 Mar

ಮಹ ೕೆ ಶ ಬಿ.ಎಸ್.

To the topic.

As I read there were so called "gupta bhaashas" during veda period. Or some are calledPishacha bhaasha etc... All these are till today assumed rightly pointing to Kannada.

Because1) Even today Marathi people think Kannada as a magic language2) Kannada by word means Black land and its language3) Kannada to an aryan would be cryptic4) See the geography where the Kannada country was situated. It was from Narmada tillKaveri during Pulikeshi II rule. Pulikeshi defeated Harshavardha on the bank of Narmadaand hence in Harsha-charita he was called a Pishacha/Demon5) Kannada writing was considered magical . Because the way of writing is by holding penwith four fingers around it and thumb not touching the pen. If you see and Mantravadi etcin Kerala, they still use this type of writing.6) It is mentioned in Kannada literature that Kannada tribe used black magic and used toattack during night. So for Aryan, Nishachara are demons.7)Prakrit and Marati contain quite some Kannada words.8) Tamils were insulted from Aryan from the Kannada and Telugu people. Thats why Tamilkept the dravidian flavour more than these. Whereas many Tamil inscription used Kannadawords thanks to Jain.

Prakrit cannot be Tamil or not got influenced by Tamil. Prakrit offcourse and usually gotinflunced by Kannada and Telugu because of the proximity.

Whereas Sinhala would have a lot of Tamil and Malayalam influence though

7 Mar

Appandai Raj

INSULTED???

RIDICULOUS.....

8 Mar

..

@Mahesh

Tamils were insulted from Aryan from the Kannada and Telugu people. Thats why Tamilkept the dravidian flavour more than these

what do u actually mean by this?

9 Mar

சி.ேமகராஜன Rajan

Kumarila Bhatta mentions in his Tantravarttika about "andhra-dravida bhasa" which seemsto imply that in his time, one could not distinguish clearly between telugu and tamil

did Kumarila bhatta knew how to read and write either Tamil or telugu ?

If not , i would feel its illogical to expect him to know to differentiate between tamil andtelugu.

9 Mar

Ramakrishnan

Kumarila further in Tantravarttika specifically mentions five dravida words as examples anddisagrees with sanskrit speakers who try to understand dravida words through similarsounding sanskrit words. Kumarila believes that the meanings of dravida words should beunderstood as in the original language and not through sanskrit words.

For example, he mentions the dravida word chor (rice/food) is understood by sanskritspeakers as related to sanskrit word chora (thief). He says they try to relate it through theunderstanding that a man without food becomes a thief and this is the reason sanskritspeakers call a thief as chora based on the dravida word chor.

Another example he gives is pAp (snake) and says the sanskrit speakers relate it to thesanskrit word pApa (sin) as the snake is considered a sinful animal. Kumarila says hedisagrees with this kind of reasoning.

Since he mentions tamil words with meaning and compares it with similar sanskrit wordsand their meanings, he must have known atleast something of the dravidian languages tomention about an andhra-dravida-bhasa

9 Mar

ಮಹ ೕೆ ಶ ಬಿ.ಎಸ್.

@Ramakrishan..

Go on.. interesting... Where did u get this?

13 Mar delete

రవి వరరో

@ RamkiFor example, he mentions the dravida word chor (rice/food) is understood by sanskritspeakers as related to sanskrit word chora (thief). He says they try to relate it through theunderstanding that a man without food becomes a thief and this is the reason sanskritspeakers call a thief as chora based on the dravida word chor.

The clarification between skt meaning and Tamil means for the words pap and chor/pambu/choram is correct. However the word choar in sanskrit word is derived from theTamil word.

Chul (to Steal, to plunder)-> (Chur)->ChooRai

"head"சூைற¹ cūṟai, n. < சூறு-. 1. Whirlwind; சுழல்காற்று. சூைறமாருதத்து (திருவாச. 3, 10). 2. [T. cūra, K. sūṟe,Tu. sūre.] Robbery, dacoity, pillage; ெகாள்ைள. (திவா.). 3. cf. சூைர. A blighting disease ofcrops; பயிரில் விழும் ேநாய் வைக. Loc. 4. A kind of dressing the hair in a knot; பனிச்ைச என்றமயிர்முடிவைக. வட்டச்சூைறயர் (சவீக. 632). 5. Loin cloth, short drawers; சல்லடம். (சவீக. 632,விேசடக்குறிப்பு.) 6. Tunny fish, bluish, attaining 2 ft. in length, Thynnus thunnina; இரண்டடிநளீமும் கருநலீநிறமு முள்ள கடல்மனீ்வைக. 7. See சூைறக்குருவி. (பதார்த்த. 894.)சூைறெகாள்(ளு)-தல் cūṟai-koḷ- :M. 181.)சூைறெகாள்(ளு)-தல் cūṟai-koḷ-, v. tr. < id. +. [T. cūrakoṉu, K. sūṟekoḷ.] To rob, plunder; சூைறயாடுதல். ேசாதியான் சூழ்பனிநரீ்சூைறெகாளு மாேறேபால் (பட்டினத். திருப்பா. ெநஞ் ெசாடு. 32).சூைறயாடு-தல் cūṟai-y-āṭu- :

(தஞ்ைசவா. 377).சூைறயாடு-தல் cūṟai-y-āṭu-, v. < id. +. [T. cūrāḍu, K. sūṟeyāḍu.] tr. To plunder, pillage; ெகாள்ைள யடித்தல். அறிவிைனச்சூைறயாட. (கம்பரா. நகர்ந.ீ 200).--intr. To be dizzy from disease, from hunger; தைலசுற்றுதல்.(W.)

சூைறவிடு-தல் cūṟai-viṭu- :(W.)சூைறவிடு-தல் cūṟai-viṭu-, v. tr. < id. +. [T. cūraviḍucu, K. sūṟeviḍu.] 1. To permit plunder; ெகாள்ைளயிடச்ெசய்தல். 2.To give over one's things to be appropriated promiscuously; ெசாத்ைதப் பிறர்க்கு வாரிவிடுதல்.ெசயசூைற ceya-cūṟai :ceya-kōṣam, n. < id. +. Shouts of victory; ெவற்றியார்ப்பு.

13 Mar delete

రవి వరరో

ெசயசூைற ceya-cūṟai :ceya-kōṣam, n. < id. +. Shouts of victory; ெவற்றியார்ப்பு.ெசயசூைற ceya-cūṟai, n. < id. +. 1. Plunder following victory in a battle; ெவன்ற பின் அடிக்குங் ெகாள்ைள. (சங்.அக.) 2. Spoils of victory; ெவன்று ெகாள்ைளெகாண்ட ெபாருள். Loc.

Chul-> (chur)(Tam)->Churi (skt)चिुरः curiḥ री rīचिुरः री f. 1 A small well. -2 Theft; ततो दैवयोगेन राजभवने चौराश्श्चुर ंी कृत्वा ... Vet.

Chul-> (Chur)-ChuRRu/Chuttu

சுற்று¹-தல் cuṟṟu-, 5 v. [T. tcuṭṭu, K. Tu. suttu, M. cuṟṟu.] intr. 1. To revolve, circulate, turn around, spin,whirl; சுழன்றுெசல்லுதல். சக்கரம் சுற்றுகிறது. 2. To take a circuitous or indirect course,meander, wind about; சுற்றிப் ேபாதல். அவன் ேநர்வழியிற் ேபாகாமற் சுற்றிப் ேபாகின்றான். 3. Tomove here and there, roam, wander about; அைலதல். அவன் சும்மா சுற்றுகிறான். 4. To becoiled; to lie encircling; வைளந்தைமதல். காலிற் சுற்றிய நாகெமன்ன (கம்பரா. நரீ்விைள. 11). 5. Tobe giddy, dizzy; கிறுகிறுத்தல். பித்தத்தினால் தைல சுற்றுகின்றது. 6. To be perplexed withdifficulties; மனங்கலங்குதல். Loc.--tr. 1. To go round, to circle; சுற்றிவரு தல். ேபாகா ெதறும்புபுறஞ்சுற்றும் (நாலடி, 337). 2. To entwine, embrace; தழுவுதல். ெகாடிகள் ஒன்ைறெயான்று சுற்றிக்கிடக்கின்றன. 3. To follow unceasingly; விடாதுபற்றுதல். அவன் அவைனச் சுற்றிக்ெகாண்ேடஇருக்கிறான். 4. To encompass, surround; சூழ்ந்திருத்தல். ேதாைக மாதர் கள் ைமந்தரிற் ேறான்றினர்சுற்ற (கம்பரா. பிணிவீ. 45). 5. To wear around; வைளயச்சூடுதல். குடர் ெநடுமாைல சுற்றி (திருவாச.6, 30). 6. To tie around the waist, invest, gird; உடுத்துதல். (திவா.) கூைற யைரச்சுற்றி வாழினும்(நாலடி, 281). 7. To coil up, as rope; வைளயக்கட்டுதல். சுற்றுஞ் சைடக் கற்ைறச் சிற்றம்பலவர்(திருக்ேகா. 134). 8. To roll up, as mat; சுருட்டுதல். பாையச் சுற்றுக. 9. To wave, whirl, brandish;சுழற்றுதல். சிலம்பஞ் சுற்றுகிறான். 10. To string, fasten with fine wire, as coral beads, pearls;கம்பிகட்டுதல். பவழமாைலையச் சுற்றிக்ெகாண்டுவா. 11. To grasp, appropriate, steal; அபகரித்தல்.

அவனுைடய ெபாருைள ெயல்லாம் சுற்றிக்ெகாண்டான். 12. To circumvent, accomplish by trickery;வஞ்சித்தல். (W.)

showing 21-24 of 24

13 Mar delete

రవి వరరో

in colloquial Tamil, the word is still used in the sentence of Chuttu vittu Varudhal

Chul-> chol (tam)

ேசால்(லு)-தல் cōl- : (page 1675)id. +. Bleeding of the nose, Rhinorrhoea; இரத்தபீனசம். (ைதலவ. ைதல. 53.)ேசால்(லு)-தல் cōl-, 3 v. tr. 1. cf. சூல்-. To plunder, seize; அபகரித்தல். நல்கிற்ைற ெயல் லாஞ்ேசால்வான் புகுந்து(திவ். இயற். திருவிருத். 35). 2. To redeem, as a mortgage; மடீ்டுக்ெகாள்ளு தல்.ேசாரவித்ைதகள் ெசாலுந் துரிசனும் (சிவதரு. 3, 88).ேசாரன்¹ cōraṉ, n. < cōra. 1. Thief; கள் வன். ேசாரர் வஞ்சைன (திருவாலவா. நூற்ப. 4). 2. Adulterer;வியபிசரிப்பவன். ேசாரேன னிங்ெகாருத்தி வாய்துடித்தவாறும்

Chul->(chor)->Choram (Tamil)->Chora (Skt)Choram (Tamil)->Choran(Tamil)->chora (Skt)

ேசாரன் cōraṉ :ேசாரவித்ைதகள் ெசாலுந் துரிசனும் (சிவதரு. 3, 88).ேசாரன்¹ cōraṉ, n. < cōra. 1. Thief; கள் வன். ேசாரர் வஞ்சைன (திருவாலவா. நூற்ப. 4). 2. Adulterer;வியபிசரிப்பவன். ேசாரேன னிங்ெகாருத்தி வாய்துடித்தவாறும்

चो cō (चौ cau) रः rḥचो (चौ) रः 1 A thief, robber; सकलं चोर गतं त्वया गहृीतम ्V.4.16. इन्दीवरदलपर्भाचोरं चक्षःु Bh.3.67. -2Any dishonest dealer. -2 One that steals or captivates the heart.

चो cō (चौ cau) िरका rikāचो (चौ) िरका Theft, robbery; ˚िववाह Māl.1, secret marriage.

ேசாரகன் cōrakaṉ :(வச்சணந். ெசய். 48.) 2. Plagiarised poem; திருட்டுப்பாடல். (W.)ேசாரகன் cōrakaṉ, n. < cōraka. Thief; திருடன். (சங். அக.)

it is incorrect to state that the word Chora in Skt is pure Skt word. however in reality, It isderived from the Tamil word.

13 Mar

Sumanth ಸುಮಂತ್

Ramki says:

For example, he mentions the dravida word chor (rice/food) is understood by sanskritspeakers as related to sanskrit word chora (thief). He says they try to relate it through theunderstanding that a man without food becomes a thief and this is the reason sanskritspeakers call a thief as chora based on the dravida word chor.

Another example he gives is pAp (snake) and says the sanskrit speakers relate it to thesanskrit word pApa (sin) as the snake is considered a sinful animal. Kumarila says hedisagrees with this kind of reasoning.

Yes, very interesting - quite a revelation.

16 Mar delete

రవి వరరో

From the word Malam meaning of Dirty, the meaning of Sin was derived both in Tamil andSkt.malam 1. excrement, faeces; 2. excretions of the body, as semen, menstrual blood,urine, ordure, ear-wax, phlegm, sweat; 3. dirt, filth; 4. dregs, sediment; 5. rust; 6. thethree impurities of the soul; 7. sin; 8. camphor

mala n. (in later language also m. ; prob. fr. %{mlai}) dirt , filth , dust , impurity (physicaland moral) AV. &c. &c. ; (in med.) any bodily excretion or secretion (esp. those of theDha1tus q.v. , described as phlegm from chyle , bile from the blood , nose mucus and earwax from the flesh , perspiration from the fat , nails and hair from the bones , rheum of theeye from the brain ; cf. also the 12 impurities of the body enumerated in Mn. v , 135)Sus3r. Va1gbh. &c. ; (with S3aivas) , original sin , natural impurity Sarvad. ; camphor L. ;Os Sepiae L. ; m. the son of a S3u1dra and a Ma1luki1 L. ; (%{A}) f. FlacourtiaCataphracta L. ; n. tanned leather , a leathern or dirty garment (?) RV. x , 136 , 2 ; a kindof brass or bell-metal L. ; the tip of a scorpion's tail L. (v.l. %{ala}) ; mfn. dirty , niggardlyL. ; unbelieving , godless L. [Cf. Gk. $ ; &240436[792 ,1] Lat. {ma8lus} ; Lith. {mo4lis} ,{me4lynas}.]

மலம் malam , n 1. Excrement, faeces; பவ்வீ. சலமலம் விடுக்கும்ேபாது (காஞ் சிப்பு. ஒழுக்க. 7). 2.Excretions of the body, as semen, menstrual blood, urine, ordure, ear-wax, phlegm, sweat;சுக்கிலம் சூதகம் மூத்திர முதலிய உடல் மாசு. (சூடா.) 3. Dirt, filth; அழுக்கு. (பிங்.) 4. Dregs,sediment; வண்டல். (W.) 5. Rust; துரு. (யாழ். அக.) 6. (Šaiva.) The three impurities of thesoul. See மும்மலம். 7. Sin; பாவம். (யாழ். அக.) 8. See மலநானம். நானேமா ெரண் வைகயாமலசலம் (தத்துவப். 45). 9. Camphor; கர்ப்பூரம். (யாழ். அக.)\Like wise, the Tamil word Pavam and Skt word Papa are derived from the tamil word Pavviwhich means dirty.

பவ்வீ pa-v-v-ī , n. Faeces, a euphemistic periphrasis; மலம். (நன். 178.)Pavvi (Tamil)(dirty) ->(Pavvam)->Pavam (Tamil) (Sin)->Paavam (Tamil) (sin)->Papa(Skt)->papma(Skt)

16 Mar delete

రవి వరరో

"பவம்² pavam , n. 1. Sin; பாவம். (பிங்.) பவமல்லா லாய தரும மறியார் (கந்தபு. அயிராணிேசா. 13).2. Rancour; மனைவரம். (திவா.). 3. Destruction; நாசம். (W.)

pApa (S3Br. xiv , also %{pA4pa}) mf(%{I} older than %{A} ; cf. Pa1n2. 4-1 , 30)n. bad ,vicious , wicked , evil , wretched , vile , low RV. &c. &c. ; (in astrol.) boding evil ,inauspicious Var. ; m. a wicked man , wretch , villain RV. &c , &c. ; N. of the profligate in adrama Cat. ; of a hell VP. ; (%{A}) f. a beast of prey or a witch , Hcat ; n. (ifc. f. %{A})evil , misfortune , ill-luck , trouble , mischief. harm AV. &c. &c. often %{zAntam@pApam} ,`" heaven forefend that evil "' R. Mr2icch. Ka1lid. &c.) ; sin , vice , crime , guilt Br. Mn.MBh. &c. ; (%{a4m}) ind. badly , miserably , wrongly AV. ; (%{a4yA}) ind. id. RV. AV. ;%{-papa4yA7muyA4} , so badly , so vilely ib.

Hence from the Tamil word Pavam only, the Skt word Papa is derived. Hence Like chora(thief), the Skt word Papa(sin) is also derived from Tamil.