e s s e n t i a l i s m : a n i n t e rv i e w w i t h g r

EPISODE 54

Essentialism: An Interview with Greg McKeown

SEE THE SHOW NOTES AT: jenlehner.com/054

[00:00:14.480] - Gary Vee Hey guys, it's Gary Vaynerchuk and you're listening to the Front

Row Entrepreneur Podcast with our girl, Jen. [00:00:14.540] - Jen Lehner Our guest today is originally from London, England, is the author

of the New York Times bestseller, “Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less” and the founder of McKeown, Inc, a company with a mission to teach Essentialism to millions of people around the world. Their clients include Adobe, Apple, Airbnb, Cisco, Google, Facebook, Pixar, Salesforce.com, Symantec, Twitter, VMware and Yahoo! Our guest is an accomplished public speaker and has spoken to hundreds of audiences around the world including in Australia, Bulgaria, Canada, China, England, Holland, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Norway, Singapore, South Africa and the United States. Highlights include speaking at SXSW, interviewing Al Gore at the Annual Conference of the World Economic Forum in Davos Switzerland and receiving a personal invitation from the Crown Prince of Norway, to speak to his Annual Innovation Conference. His writing has appeared or been covered by Fast Company, Fortune, Huff Post, Politico, and Inc. Magazine and Harvard Business Review. He has also been interviewed on numerous television and radio shows including

EPISODE 54: Essentialism: An Interview with Greg McKeown jenlehner.com/054

https://jenlehner.com/054


NPR and NBC. In 2012 he was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. Originally from London, England, McKeown now lives in the Los Angeles area with his wife and their four children. He graduated with an MBA from Stanford University. Welcome to the Front Row Entrepreneur podcast, Greg McKeown.

[00:01:42.030] - Greg McKeown It's so great to be with you. Thanks Jen. [00:01:44.050] - Jen Lehner Well, I'm really thrilled to have you on the show because first of

all, I've read your book three times now. [00:01:48.560] - Greg McKeown Wow. [00:01:48.970] - Jen Lehner Audio and the hardback had a huge impact on my life and my

business. But secondly, I've learned that my audience consistently lists your book Essentialism as their favorite or the most impactful business book that they've ever read. So it really just made good sense for me to invite you on the show. And I'm thrilled that you said yes, because, I mean, when The Godfather or the father really, I guess, of Essentialism says yes to something, you got to feel a little bit good about that. Right.

[00:02:16.940] - Greg McKeown Well, tell me, what's the impact of Essentialism being for you? [00:02:20.600] - Jen Lehner Gosh, well, it's been that I have always have, you know. Forty-two

different balls in the air. A mom of three kids from eleven years old to nineteen. And I'm running a business. And inside that business, I have several different offers, projects, podcasts, livestreams, courses, all those things. And you can get so caught up in saying yes to everything that it's the trade offs. Right.

[00:02:47.690] - Greg McKeown We have to stop that because you describe it certainly sounds

like the problem [00:02:54.200] - Jen Lehner That I have too many offers and so [00:02:55.750] - Greg McKeown I don't know. I don't know maybe. But that seemed like a long list

of activities. And so I'm curious, when you say Essentialism has impacted you, have you reduced, is this already a reduced list from what it was before?



[00:03:10.220] - Jen Lehner Yes, it is. But this is why I've read the book three times. Right. So [00:03:15.520] - Greg McKeown It was still relevant. You only have to read it once. [00:03:19.430] - Jen Lehner Right. It's a practice. It's a practice. And so I have to keep reading

it. And, you know, getting better at it. This is a stripped down list. I mean, I can't erase the fact that I've got three kids. All those things are all good things. But what happens is that you get those opportunities as you grow and good things start to happen. That means more opportunities keep getting lobbed at you. But looking at them through the lens of Essentialism really helps me to say no. And I've gotten really good at that, actually. And I do have a rating system and a lot of our listeners don't know what Essentialism is. So I want to back up real quick and let's just give a little primer.

[00:03:57.160] - Greg McKeown Yeah, we're going to need to do that. [00:03:58.240] - Jen Lehner OK. So first of all, what is essentialism? And then after this, we're

gonna talk about your podcast because it's so outstanding. But we'll get to that in a minute.

[00:04:05.990] - Greg McKeown Well, essentialism the disciplined pursuit of less but better. So

instead of getting pulled into all of the noise, all of the moments and tools, all the undisciplined pursuit of more that we often tend to move into Essentialism is the pursuit of what is essential, the elimination of what is not. And then the creation of a system to make execution of what matters as easy as possible. So it's philosophy. But then it also has with it a series of practices that allows us to actually become essentialist ourselves, create a essentialist, teams and cultures around us. And that is what essentialism is this?

[00:04:51.350] - Jen Lehner And how did your journey into essentialism begin? [00:04:54.350] - Greg McKeown Well, one of the key moments for me in hindsight was when I got

an email from my manager at time that said Friday between one and two would be a very bad time for you to have a baby because I need to be at this client meeting. My wife was expecting otherwise it's even strange email to receive. But sure



enough, on Friday, we're in the hospital. Our daughter has been born before and I'm feeling torn. How can I keep everybody happy?

[00:05:23.480] - Greg McKeown And so to my shame, I went to the meeting and I remember my

manager saying, well, look, I respect you for the choice you just made to be here. But I'm not sure the look on their faces, a sort of confidence, even if they had it, even if it had led to some amazing thing. It still would be clear that I made a fool's bargain. Violated something more important, less important. And I learned the simplest lessons, which is if you don't prioritize your life, someone else will.

[00:05:51.260] - Greg McKeown And that's really what's giving me fire to the deed in not just

writing Essentialism the book, but also in taking Essentialism out into the world. Is this feeling that people maybe need the invitation to take responsibility for that prioritization and not to allow that to be made by other people? The forces around them.

[00:06:14.240] - Jen Lehner And so if that's what it essentialists is somebody who would look

at that and say, no, that's not essential. What's essential is that I stay here to be here with my wife and new baby. And then I guess a not essentialist. You were being a non Essentialists in that moment. What else categories someone as a non Essentialism? And why do you say non-essentialism is everywhere?

[00:06:35.150] - Greg McKeow Here's a litmus test. People listening to this can immediately

apply. Have you ever felt busy but not productive? [00:06:43.400] - Jen Lehner Oh yeah. [00:06:44.300] - Greg McKeown Have you ever said yes. Just please. Have you ever felt like your

you again stretched too thin at work or at home? Do you feel like your days being hijacked by the people's agenda for you? Anyone who say yes to any or perhaps even all of the above has been called in to non-essentialist a way of the non-essentialist and they haven't almost certainly chosen that really deliberately. Haven't said, I just want to be busy but not productive. I just want to be stretched too thin. They've got them by default and non-essentialism is the default setting. And so we're going to



tend to was being in that path. And essentialism therefore becomes either a choice people don't even know about or once they, you know, about it, they to make it intentionally, deliberately. And I find that the noise in the world, voices, the social media, that e-mail, all of that makes it so that we will find ourselves unintentionally becoming non-essentialists.

[00:07:48.980] - Jen Lehner Is there anybody that you've met in real life who you think

exemplifies what it means to be an essentialist? [00:07:55.430] - Greg McKeown Absolutely. I think that I mean, first of all, all you have to do is

think of somebody who is really focused on what matters and they just keep coming back to it. We're not looking for extreme guru at the top of the mountain in order to find an Essentialists, somebody who is engaged in the wrestle. So, for example, I tend to think that there are two kinds of people in the world. What is the priority thing? And the first group for the group, is a loss and the second group of the group that Know their loss. And then Essentialists just fits into that second category. They just when they need to keep on asking for what's important now and then half an hour later, what's important now and they just keep coming back gently but frequently disciplined pursuit towards these things that really are essential. The people that inspire us, generally speaking, will be more towards the essentialist side of things, because then what we are inspired by is that they have done something that special become something that is meaningful, and that means that we're making tradeoffs.

[00:09:05.240] - Greg McKeown It's so, so. So rather than give you a single example, I just think

this is many in our lives. We just need to be looking a particular way and that particular ways, like we have to take off the lens of non-essentialism and these glasses that blinded us and see the world through the lens of what matters. And suddenly we will see people that are, you know, they're saying, yes, when other people are saying no, they're saying no.

[00:09:34.580] - Greg McKeown When other people are saying yes, that they're happier about, it's

more peace themselves, more in tune with their most important relationships. And they're quietly getting on with the mission they feel cool to do instead of doing everything that everyone else is doing and trying to compete with thousand of them.



[00:09:56.480] - Jen Lehner Yeah, and I like that you gave some really concrete examples in

the book. One that was the first thing that I adopted a while ago was your monk mode email. So you have an email that was on Auto-Reply and when you were writing the book. You said, you know, I'm sorry, I'm in monk mode and I'll get back to you. I'm writing a book and I'll get back to you after that. And I just thought that was such a small but smart thing to do, and that worked for me as well. I wish I'd just keep it turned on all the time, actually.

[00:10:28.420] - Greg McKeown Yeah. I've been experimenting with recently in COVID-times. It's

worked really well, is fine with travel, with office. I leave there, join the family and I announce it. Wow. So break a bit of a song and dance about it. Hold me accountable. So I literally, as I leave the office, sort of pull out like the town crier today. It's five o'clock chords or four-fifty-niners , fiveo-three. And this just helps create boundary so that it doesn't just become this endless flow.

[00:11:08.940] - Greg McKeown It's not like at five o'clock at work I could possibly do is done. Of

course, always more email and there's always more to learn and there's always more projects will began always more clients to be served. We know these things are infinite or close enough to infinite. And so it's just about having a set boundary. So it's become kind of a fun thing in our family. And the children notice it and they smile about it. They laugh around, but they also know what time I'm joining them.

[00:11:39.000] - Greg McKeown That's an example that I found to be quite effective in these. [00:11:44.010] - Jen Lehner What it what are the eight? What's the age range of your kids for

children? [00:11:48.180] - Greg McKeown I have four children, the youngest is eleven and the oldest is 17.

So similar to the age range you're describing. [00:11:54.530] - Jen Lehner Yes, exactly. So I listen to your podcasts episode where you

spoke with a frontline nurse in the UK. I can't tell you how it hit me at exactly the right time because I have been looking through essentialism through the lens of COVID with four kids. It's a whole other kind of decision making. I feel like every day I'm



making life or death decisions because I don't know what it's like in the L.A. area. But for us and I don't know if your 17 year old is college bound yet, but for us, you know, we're dealing with like in this moment, his university is going back like full force and they're making us choose the parent.

[00:12:31.230] - Jen Lehner Are you going to let them go or are they are they going to be

virtual? And then the elementary kids, the our other children, same thing there is pretty much like they're putting this on the parents. And then you have elderly parents. Do you visit them? Do you not? You know, it's it feels like every day is this life or death decision. And I know a lot of other people on top of that, you know, maybe they've lost their jobs. Like what is essential in the whole world is just, I don't know, seems to be on fire around you. Yeah.

[00:12:59.850] - Greg McKeown Yes. I mean, we're all involuntary Essentialists now. When all of

this first happened, it was me. Such a striking thing. Of course, we all thought it was unthinkable. But from the lens of having tried to take essentialism out into the marketplace of ideas, into people's lives, I just found it fascinating to suddenly see the global community almost literally overnight being sent, you know, not unkindly go to your room. Right. And you ever got to think about this.

[00:13:35.310] - Greg McKeown And suddenly everybody, whether they meant to or not, want to

do or not, they really were confronted, whether they were using these exact words almost with the question, well, what's essential now? What really matters now, everybody? I just don't care who you are. Everybody has had to be prioritized. As a result, these changes, they had to wrestle with new tradeoffs. And so I see this as a great opportunity to have a great reset.

[00:14:00.720] - Greg McKeown We can have a great reset society level, but that's all just so

overwhelming anyway. So just at the individual level, just saying, OK, what do I want? What really matters to me? Going back to something. There's no going back to the level it is in life is that this is that you can't re rewind the clock. So this just what do you want now? And I think that's I mean, there was a YouGov poll in the U.K. that said that only nine percent of the population want to go back to helping this world before in every way.



[00:14:30.450] - Jen Lehner I believe it. [00:14:31.490] - Greg McKeown So now it's an opportunity to design something new. So for me.

Well, how I see this is we've gone from being involuntary Essentialists. And I would like to encourage people to be voluntary Essentialists. How do we step into this? Take control of this for ourselves as so many things we can't control. Anything you can't control, anything you can't control goes into the moment. Central bucket. We shouldn't waste any time. Not one ounce of energy. On things we cannot control. That's a huge burden off I hope for people.

[00:15:05.400] - Jen Lehner It is. It rescues me. When I heard you talked about this on the

podcast episode and you talked about three concentric circles. And when you did that, you cannot imagine the relief that you brought to me and it was talking about how the non-essentialists work from the outside in and Essentialists work from the inside out. Can you talk about that for a moment?

[00:15:25.210] - Greg McKeown It's the simplest idea. So three concentric circles on the outside.

You just have all the other. This is just like all the stuff out there. So what's out there? I mean, you're none-essentialists starts out there. They start by reading the news endlessly, watching the news, endlessly getting all fired up about this single thing of what this person said and what that person tweeted this. You know, just all this stuff out, that e-mail is out there.

[00:15:53.470] - Greg McKeown Social media is out there for any number of problems out there.

Number two, concentric circle is our most important relationships and that we're moving towards the center. And number two is most important relationships. And the problem is that if you start out there a non-essential sense that there's nothing left of you. When you get to your most important relationships, your family relationships specifically. So they get short shrift of you. By the time you are engaged with them, by the time you're back with them, even if you're with them physically, emotionally, you're not there emotionally available.

[00:16:30.970] - Greg McKeown You don't have the energy for it. And so they get a fragmented

version of your thinking, like a ghostly version of you. And then



the inside of the circle, the third and final circle in the center, it is you. It's to protect the assets. And the problem is that if you go outside in, by the time you get that, there's just nothing left for that. And so it repeats the cycle because what people do is one person I told you recently spends two hours scrolling through Zillow at midnight day after day instead of going to sleep because they're trying somehow to relieve this tension that lead this pressure.

[00:17:13.660] - Greg McKeown Somehow they're trying to recuperate. But because they're doing

it in a way that doesn't create any new energy for them, they don't get to sleep that they need as they wake up the next day. Also tired and the cycle continues. So what makes this this is this idea in the world is that tiny switch, the essentialist simply works from the inside out. They start protecting the asset. Then from that, they move into their most important relationships. And from that, they then at peace with themselves, healthy themselves, at peace with the most important relationships, are able to back to discern which things out there should receive their attention.

[00:17:59.250] - Greg McKeown In fact, they're sort of required to be more discerning because

there is, in fact, less time. They can't simply solve whatever problems out there by just spending more and more time and endless as if it's an endless flow. Because so much time is already spoken for in the first two circles. And so you become more discerning and more thoughtful. And as it turns out, you're going to make a far greater contribution by being discerning about which few things to do rather than just un-discerning going about anything that's tapping on you from out there.

[00:18:35.050] - Jen Lehner So you just rest by it kind of quickly. But you talked about

protecting the asset and in this powerful interview on your amazing podcast. By the same name as the book Essentialism with Greg McKeown. It was so powerful because she said, you know, yes, I hear what you're saying. I've heard that, you know, put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child and you immediately swoop in and you're like, no, no, no, no. This is not that. This means to truly see yourself as an asset, a real, true asset in and of yourself. It is independent of anyone else. You are an asset and you must protect that asset. And I just thought that was credibly helpful, I think, because I was just right



there with this woman. I was just feeling everything she was feeling right in that moment. So.

[00:19:22.480] - Greg McKeown Well, I appreciate you saying that because one of the things that

this isn't quite what you are getting at, but we're just experimenting with this with the podcast, doing what I'm calling an essential interventions, where I just want to talk with people in everyday situations about how they can apply essentialism for real. So there's the book version, which no matter how well you write a book to me, how thoughtful you are about it, of course, doesn't can't bridge perfectly to a person's individual life circumstances.

[00:19:55.030] - Greg McKeown So there's a there's a space and necessary gap between the

ideas and the person who's reading them. And so I love the journey to be able to go from the, you know, where somebody is really at and to be able to connect it back to essentialism. And so we went to. Every week, at least at first. But I'm actually asking people to write to me if they have nominations, people that they would like to read, they think ought to have an essential intervention, either because they just doing good things in their life, struggling, or maybe it's themselves they want to advocate for why they shouldn't be.

[00:20:31.040] - Greg McKeown And have this intervention. And so if you want to do that, you just

need to go to essentialism.com and somebody e-mail to my team and then have the opportunity to be considered to be on the podcast. But I love it. I love the intervention process. It's where my heart really goes to with essentialism rather than talk to talk about it. Do it right.

[00:20:50.060] - Jen Lehner Yeah. And I'm curious about that. You know, like you look at

some famous, you know, let's say famous songwriters. And every time, you know, I'm sure now, of course, I'm completely spacing on like somebody who wrote a famous song. But name a famous song. I don't know. Yesterday. No, the Beatles have too many songs. What's a good song? Well, it's just that, you know, I always sort of feel bad for that star, you know, that like 50 years into their career, they still have to sing that song.



[00:21:14.600] - Jen Lehner Not that I feel bad. I said that the wrong way, but I'm always curious. Do they hate it? Do they hate that song so much that they have to keep singing that song? And I think when you write a book called Essentialisms, like what is more essential than the essential. So, like, where do you go from there? But I've really only half kidding because obviously there's so much you can do with that. But I'm wondering, do you get a little tired talking about the book?

[00:21:37.640] - Greg McKeown I don't total. Although I will have to say we keep guessing. We

keep dancing around something you. And I think we should just go there. But I haven't once been bored of the subject. It's one of the reasons I chose the subject was because it's such a good encouragement for me to live it. Right. It helps me to have those ideas go through my mind, not once or twice or 10 times, even if to read a book 10 times for me, of course, now it's been hundreds and hundreds of thousands of times, perhaps by now.

[00:22:07.100] - Greg McKeown And I just love it because I believe that when we hear an idea a

second time, we don't just remember it as people tend to say, oh, that's a good reminder. What actually happens every time we have a second impression of ideas? It goes deeper in this and line upon line, layer upon layer. It becomes a part of us. And so at some point, we're not learning about essentialism and I'm not teaching of essentialism. You become essentialist is the way you think, the way you act.

[00:22:41.300] - Greg McKeown You become something that you weren't before. And the thing

with Dan's brand, but I didn't know that you want to go there far is we should just do this now instead of talking about essentialism, we should just apply it to you. That's a line.

[00:22:55.200] - Jen Lehner Is he OK? It was all about it. Yes. Let's do it. I guess so. [00:23:00.270] - Greg McKeown Here we go. So. So just tell me, what is something that's really,

really important to you essential to you. That you're investing in. [00:23:10.790] - Jen Lehner My family, my kids. [00:23:12.800] - Greg McKeown So you've got these three children. You said. I mean, I ask it this

way. So I said something really important to you. And now I want



you just to tell me put into your words why why are your kids important to you? So that sounds obvious, but I want you to translate words

[00:23:31.670] - Jen Lehner Because they bring me so much joy. They're awesome little

people and they feel like the most important thing I've ever created. I mean, to say I created them. This sounds a little bit weird, but, you know, they're like the best things I ever did.

[00:23:46.370] - Greg McKeown These people are the people you are proudest of. [00:23:51.590] - Jen Lehner Yes. [00:23:51.810] - Greg McKeown You are proudest still in your life. You're amazed by them. [00:23:55.490] - Jen Lehner Every moment that I spend with them, I am amazed by them. [00:23:58.970] - Greg McKeown So level one for you, why it matters is because you're enamored

with them, because you're amazing. That's level one. So why does that matter so much to you?

[00:24:08.870] - Jen Lehner Why does it matter that they're amazing? It matters that they're

amazing because I mean, it doesn't matter that they're amazing. It matters. I mean, it just matters that they exist. And I love them. It's so hard to say. I don't know how to answer that. I'm being a terrible.

[00:24:26.900] - Greg McKeown No, no. Is it. You're wrestling with it. That's just what you're

supposed to be doing. It's not easy to put into words why something that's so deep and important to us and to you.

[00:24:39.320] - Jen Lehner But isn't it that kids are just your children, your offspring like

aren't. It just comes with the package. Like, intrinsically, they are your children. And therefore, I mean, of course, there's the outliers parents that maybe have problems or they abandon their children. But by and large, don't parents all think of their children as the center of their world? Or at least if they aren't the center, they at least feel that they should be the center.

[00:25:07.340] - Greg McKeown What you're saying to me, I think, is that this is a universal feeling

that you have is just in the moment of them being born. Yes. The



moment of you conceiving the moment of life, you feel this deep bond like, yeah, my mission, my life is now to protect you.

[00:25:33.140] - Jen Lehner Yes. [00:25:33.680] - Greg McKeown Nurture you. Yes. Love you. It's almost like you're saying it's just

biological, but it's biological and spiritual. And it's certainly like a raw level.

[00:25:43.910] - Jen Lehner Yes. [00:25:44.670] - Greg McKeown This is your work more. Give me one more level of why. Why

does that matter so much? Why does it matter to you to pursue this thing that sparked within you was you as they were born? Why does it matter so much to fulfill that spark?

[00:26:04.790] - Jen Lehner Because well, I mean, I feel a huge responsibility that there is no

question that that must happen. But more than that, I would just say that when I'm with them or when I do well, nothing feels as good or satisfying. So if I'm parenting, well, you know, I don't question that. And I've used this example before, and this is not to stir up any kind of controversy between bottle feeding, breastfeeding. But it's a good example, I think.

[00:26:33.050] - Jen Lehner And that is it was the one part of parenting that I never had to

second guess myself about because I just knew it was good and I felt so good about it. And so I did that and I struggled, as many new moms do, because it's really, really hard. But then I did it and I, I was committed to it. And it felt so good because I was taking the best care and giving my baby the best I could possibly give. And I didn't have to second guess that. But I think everything after that, I was like, oh, I don't know if I'm doing a good job at this. You know

[00:27:07.040] - Greg McKeown What you really, I think are saying to me is that the risk of failure,

the fear of failing this comes right down to the heart for you. [00:27:19.050] - Jen Lehner Yes.



[00:27:19.680] - Greg McKeown It's raw that this is your job. It's so deep, you can't quite find the words for it. But this can not be failed. Failure can not be the outcome. Just so deep in you.

[00:27:36.630] - Jen Lehner Yes, exactly. Failure cannot be. Failure is not an option. [00:27:41.090] - Greg McKeown OK. So now we contrast that a little against the feeling of, oh,

maybe I'm not doing as much as I would like to be doing. So let's get clear about that. So it's instead of a general sense what the success look like for you with your children. How would you know that you weren't under invested?

[00:28:02.000] - Jen Lehner I think it would. I mean, part of it is I have to think about each kid

individually, sort of, because part of it is. Out of my control now with their ages. So I would like to say I would know that because we would be at the dinner table altogether laughing and we'd have our movie night. And those are some of our best times together. And again, I feel really nourished and I feel like I'm doing a good job.

[00:28:25.730] - Jen Lehner And I see them and they love it. Like, I see you know, they might

argue, oh, I don't want to do family, dagga. I want to watch Netflix or I you know, I've got something I got to do. I can't do dinner. But when we do that and we make a real effort and they show up and we talk around the table and not, you know, nothing fancy, just that that kind of stuff, they light up. And I see there they are very content, you know. And so that makes me happy.

[00:28:53.630] - Greg McKeown You give me quite a concrete answer, which is because it's really

helpful about this. This dinner was a movie, but it's the dinner plus the conversation. Plus enjoy the movie together. It's being together. It's not just watching a movie. It's very different. For example, if you have a family watching different movies on different devices and different rooms, it's something different about having that full experience together. It's sort of storytelling. Now you have a common story you can refer back to.

[00:29:24.260] - Greg McKeown And so I can see this this description. The question I asked was

about what success looks like. And you've identified an example of success. Does success look like doing this more than you're



doing 50 percent of the time and you wish you were doing 90 percent of the time? Once the delta. Yeah.

[00:29:43.740] - Jen Lehner I mean, I suppose maybe having it more routine or just doing it

more, because I am the one who does have to spearhead this. I met my husband does sometimes as well, but it's not like the kids are gonna make this happen. So it would be doing this more. Yes. How often do you do it now when COVID first started.

[00:30:01.950] - Jen Lehner Like when the lockdown's first started. It was so nice. I mean, so

for him to look back on those days with a bit of nostalgia. Exactly. It was just, you know, because it was it was it was so bad but so good. And in that, like, we were it was regular. It was three, four nights a week. And, you know, now the world is churning again, but sort of like not really.

[00:30:26.090] - Jen Lehner And so, you know, it's like it's just very it's just a very weird time.

And it's. And so now even those [00:30:34.030] - Greg McKeown ambiguous half responded off. Not it some days open, some

days it's close. And so it's made it harder for you as a family to just have one sense of reality. We are all here together. We need to kind of be together just to stay sane. That unity warn of the catastrophe of COVID is past.

[00:30:59.690] - Greg McKeown So now it has to be brought about by a different or different type

of leadership. So there's two things I'm really hearing here. One is that you'd like to do it more slowly at this point. How much? And the second is that right now it's completely dependent on you. You would like it not to be so dependent on you. So we'll deal with both of them. How often are you doing it now? Not post it back in the day. How often are you doing it now and how often do you want to be doing it?

[00:31:28.400] - Jen Lehner I would just say now we're not. Once every three, two weeks I get

like we might run into each other in the kitchen and I'll sit down and eat. And a movie might happen, but we're not organizing it, so we're not really doing it.

[00:31:40.120] - Greg McKeown Yeah. Success for you. What would the next level of success. So

we're not looking for perfect, but we're saying, OK, what is a



goal? If you achieved it, you would say, you know what? We've made some progress.

[00:31:52.850] - Jen Lehner If we could do it once a week. [00:31:53.950] - Greg McKeown Yeah. So you have a night. At night. It's still a movie together.

And you're going to be organized around that. OK, so let's move towards making this happen. So first, when would you like to do it? What might see on Sunday?

[00:32:09.420] - Jen Lehner Yes, Sunday. [00:32:10.470] - Greg McKeown And so there's two approaches. And I already mentioned this, but

this is really important distinction. One approach is to make this happen through your effort. So it happens because you rally everybody, because you make that happen because you take the money, you put it on and you grab everybody. You pull back. And there's a whole set of things that probably then includes, you know, cleaning up, throwing things away, making other people do it. The problem with that approach is that it's so dependent on you that if you aren't up for it, if you're tired out, if you don't quite have it today, it won't happen.

[00:32:47.690] - Greg McKeown It's completely dependent on that. Also, of course, puts a greater

drain on you because it's all you. Every action is your action. So I would encourage you to do is to think about an your approach, a little investment up front pay dividends many, many times. So the difference between linear results, which is you get everyone going. It happens every time you do it. You start from zero. Then you say again, OK. This is the day I'm going to do it.

[00:33:22.480] - Greg McKeown And I'm going to make that residual result because it's one that

happens repeatedly in a perfect residual result scenario. You could do nothing. And it could still happen. That's the range we're talking about, the foolish residual results. You could literally be in another country and it would still happen or maybe even like we could pass away. And it would still happen. So that's the extreme that we're going. Well, how can we take a step towards that kind of residual scenario where it's less dependent on us? What would your first thought when I put that question to you?



[00:33:54.210] - Jen Lehner What's the next step we could take to make it residual? [00:33:57.090] - Greg McKeown Yeah. To make it less dependent on you. How could you lead in

this situation in a way that makes the result you're looking for happen without it all being on you?

[00:34:08.460] - Jen Lehner Well, being the organizer and the the taskmaster that I am, I

would probably like create a spreadsheet and ask people to sign up for days that they wanted to fix the meal or. And maybe, you know, a list of movies that we could choose from like a month out. So we don't spend an hour going back and forth about what movie are we going to watch my turn on Netflix right now.

[00:34:34.170] - Greg McKeown And spend, through that, if spend half your evening looking and

scrolling and scrolling it. Yeah. Is that right? [00:34:41.560] - Jen Lehner Right. Yeah. You know, because you've got the span of 11 to 17 to

because in the 17 year old, movies aren't necessarily the eleven year old movies and the movies mom and dad like are definitely not the movies that. Oh, you gotta watch. So and so. And it didn't age very well. And anyway.

[00:34:55.620] - Greg McKeown Right. But yeah. You got a spreadsheet that you can create. Yeah

it has. It simplifies the decision making with the movies. You have a pre-selected set of movies to choose from. You could even schedule those potentially you can have a calendar. Who's in charge of the meal for that night. More of the thoughts from you. Yeah.

[00:35:14.880] - Jen Lehner No, that's what I can do. I love that. That's a good starting place.

That's doable. I mean, it sounds doable. I think just that would go a long way just to get their buy in.

[00:35:24.000] - Greg McKeown Yeah. I mean, you're using which I fully support two business

language for this. Probably you're trying to solve a similar problem in your business. You might have more intuitive approach or more habit. Muscle memory around how you might solve this and delegated. But sometimes in family we don't apply some of the useful principles. So we just let it go very under managed underled home situation. Yeah. And it becomes a bit more reactive. So one more thing.



[00:35:54.890] - Greg McKeown Use the word buy in. And I could imagine that the first order of

business may be after you put some of the thoughts in your spreadsheet. So maybe it's not so sort of second date. You do the spreadsheet, you bring it out and you really have a family council about to begin that habit of really getting everyone together and just talk through things, recognizing that it may or may not go well, that conversation. But it doesn't matter because you're just introducing a way of making decisions together.

[00:36:22.160] - Greg McKeown And so you can stop that by saying, well, listen, we just tell you

the most important people to make to all of you. Let me tell you why. Because it's like deep, deep in me to be able to be there for you and not fail at this. And so to say I love you doesn't do it at all. You are my life. And to fail that this would be impossible for me. And so one of the ways that what success looks like to me is that when we get together, we just all enjoy being together.

[00:36:47.670] - Greg McKeown It doesn't have to be intense for we in the room together. We're

eating together, watching a movie together. And I'd like to make that once a week or make it easy for that to happen going forward. I'm trying to summarize the conversation you and I have had in the way that you can initiate that counsel with your family.

[00:37:05.970] - Jen Lehner Yeah, I don't think it's best to make me cry on my podcast. I think

it's okay for me to cry for a year. That's your podcast. Anyway, yeah, I think that's beautiful. That's great. Those words, actually, I'm not I'm kind of a mushy, gushy person, you know. So it's hard for me to sometimes talk a certain way. But those words that you gave me, you gave me a little script and they don't feel uncomfortable to me. I think that's because you you paraphrase what I said.

[00:37:30.910] - Greg McKeown Completely [00:37:31.380] - Jen Lehner that's great. [00:37:33.060] - Greg McKeown And by the way, the reason I did it is because in teaching, it

doesn't seem like we're going through a very formal process in this conversation. But there is method to the madness and there is a process behind it. When I'm doing these interventions and



one of the questions I'll ask is why? Why does it matter? I don't always, always do that many times.

[00:37:54.000] - Greg McKeown And I have told the enormous number of times now even where

people. I have a sheet of paper in front. And they are going step by step through the process. So they are writing out answers to questions on a piece of paper in front of them with pre-set questions and so on. And there's a section that says, why does this matter? And they write out, why does it matter? And then I say, OK, it's time now to go and have a conversation with somebody.

[00:38:15.830] - Greg McKeown It's time to go and talk to whoever it is you need to talk to now.

And you can use this form in front of you that you have written out as your script before you do it. I'm going to have in the room right now you're going to say I'm gonna to to stand up and they're going to go through their script with us all so that we can see how and practice it right now.

[00:38:35.120] - Greg McKeown Even when I do all of that, people skip they literally skip the

section about what? Yeah. And they have been taught why it matters. They have thought through it. They they've written it out. They have it in front of them. They've been explained that it's a script and they still skip it. And I think it's because people are more willing to explain the why until they just don't want to do it. But it's that in some ways it's the most important part of the process when you get to communicating with other people.

[00:39:02.330] - Greg McKeown We assume that other people know our why. And not only don't

say how could they We barely know why. We barely express it. You find the words can be tricky. So beginning your family council with that sort of framing of why I think part of this success journey that we're mapping out for you, the next piece of it is I think I would encourage you to to make sure it isn't. And I don't think you would. This isn't dictated to it's like, look, I've put this together. Let me walk through this. I might. You might. Well, sometimes we do.

[00:39:38.000] - Greg McKeown Sometimes parents we tilt towards a greater level of control is

helpful, right. Either under controlling or over control. And what we're trying to do is find this respectful place where we're having



a council, we're having a conversation. And if we come to a prepared, that always helps. But then. OK. What do you think about this idea? How do you feel about it? Is this something you'd like to do if you would like to do? How often would you like to do it?

[00:40:03.590] - Greg McKeown Let's each person have a say, you know, try to have. We've done

it in our family, sometimes formally, where we'll give each person like a pencil or something, whatever. The thing is, an object while they are they while they hold it. They only control they get a chance to speak. And then it gets past the next person and they speak. And how do we need that? Yeah. When you have to establish this greater level of a quality of communication.

[00:40:29.510] - Greg McKeown And so I remember actually when one of the first times we

introduced this, my son Jack was young at the time, I suppose, school or something. We were in the next meal time together and we weren't using it that day. And he specifically asked for it because he realized that if he didn't have it, he wouldn't be hurt at the same level. And so he asked for it. And we even now will facilitate. My job is is often facilitating. And no, Jackson is racist. And you're you're going around to make sure that everybody gets to have a voice, whatever their birth order, whether they're a parent or not. So that we can hear everyone and get this this ability to work together.

[00:41:09.620] - Greg McKeown What I found is that as my children get involved in it and we make

plans together and we organize it together. Of course, it won't work perfectly. But that's part of the process, as you say. OK, well, we're going to try this and then we'll come back together and we'll have another family about this and we'll we'll adjust as we need to. But as you divide it roles and responsibilities, I think that, you know, and then you recognize what we're going to this is a journey.

[00:41:36.830] - Greg McKeown It's a long term journey. We're going to get to the point. Maybe

it's over some 90 days. And I know this sounds like it sounds like a ridiculous such a small change just in our movie. But if you think about it as an as a part of developing your family culture, developing this Essentialists culture around what you value and what your family values, they can become very natural for people.



And so a first human, you have to bring out a spreadsheet every week and go, OK, let's just remember, you know, OK, that is in charge of getting the food.

[00:42:08.860] - Greg McKeown So those in charge of getting the movie set up. So as those in

charge of getting out of place have, you know, whatever you divided it up, you might have to retrain that, remind everybody. And you just build that back into your process and what you can find over a period of time. You make the investment upfront and over a period time, this hole that you have can become so normalized, so routine. Each person's responsibility, such a no brainer that it actually does become effortless is going to happen to happen.

[00:42:41.510] - Jen Lehner It's funny, when you were talking about the residual effect

immediately, I was thinking of my good friends, family, and they always had this, you know, family dinner on Sunday night. And then, you know, the kids had their own kids, the grandkids and the kids now coming to the house. Every Sunday, it was just what you did. And when the matriarch, the grandmother died, they still and you said, look, even after we're not here, it might carry out. It still carries on. Yeah. They just keep going. And because it was part of their culture and hopefully it's not too late for us, but I'm definitely going to do this.

[00:43:14.500] - Greg McKeown No, it's absolutely not too late because what happens next

always matters most. And so you starting today with this, we started with the word residual, and that's precisely what I mean. But let's expand residual to mean intergenerational. Suddenly, if you take an intergenerational perspective and you say, well, it's a bargain, if I can set up a new normal new habit, new family tradition and I can influence. Well, fine. If it takes a few weeks of training and adjustments. And that didn't work. Guys, why didn't this work to my what was it about this role for us? Okay, let's talk about it.

[00:43:56.590] - Greg McKeown Let's keep adjusting. Keep learning together. Let's be humble as

parents and all of our children. They can be leaders, too. Course they can be. Doesn't know exactly what we want for them. And so we want to be able to treat them as the leaders already or certainly people that can become leaders. And so this relatively



modest effort can be repaid many, many times over. As you think about it as a very long term change, rather than just say we'd like to do this together, it's going to reform moral math, which I feel like.

[00:44:29.650] - Jen Lehner All right. Well, I mean, you have you ever heard. I don't know who

said this, but they said, don't meet your heroes. Have you ever heard that?

[00:44:36.980] - Greg McKeown I've heard that. Yes. [00:44:38.340] - Jen Lehner And I understand it because. Have you met the person you just

thought was great? And then you meet them and they're just they're really not. And it's really it's quite a let down. And, you know, it's the way I feel when I interview someone I really like on the podcast. I'm always hoping, please, you know, I hope they live up to this way that I see them. And I have to tell you that you have far exceeded anything I could have imagined you to be. You've already had this huge impact on my life, on my business. And then after today. Oh, my gosh. So I'll let you know how it goes. We're going to do this. But I thank you for the bottom of my heart.

[00:45:11.800] - Jen Lehner Listeners, if you want to hear more from Greg, and I know you do.

Make sure and subscribe to his podcast Essentialism wherever you get your podcasts. Or you could go to essentialism.com and subscribe there. But when you're at essentialism.com, make sure and sign up for his very, very outstanding newsletter. Greg, thank you so much. I just I can't thank you enough.

[00:45:33.560] - Greg McKeown It's been such a pleasure. Thank you.



e s s e n t i a l i s m : a n i n t e rv i e w w i t h g r

Documents