TfTTiMirnM-r- "
..... . . . . rnuci or t i iinn rs or Kreat. corporations
nervine; on Ihc hoard of director ofrailroad nnd Industrial corporationwhich have nnmcd .1. P. Morgan A Co.as their tlseat acetit, ninl which main-tain larcn depotdtx with tlmt concern.
Mr. Morgan wii nn Ideal witnessand eecmed to he Imbued with the soledesire of making It plain that thereran be no such thing as a 'moneytrmt."
Purlng the entire examination theflnatirler nn.i In the hest of humor andon several occiudotiM nave evidence ofderiving tinisliKriililc ntnusetnent out ofhlnexperlotivr.
Everybody who listened to his testi-mony whm linprrKKnl by his modesty.At tlmfl ho .seemed nlmoMt h.i.Mhfulwhon Mr. I'litermycr, t ho ootnmlttee'aL'ounsid, InMsttil on attributing greatjtowcr to him. When Mr. Morgan be-came Interested, however. In u discus-(do- n
ulth the cotntnltteo's lawyer, hedisplayed rtitliusliism nnd apparentlywas rnjoylng (he experience of mulch-ing wits with tin- - lawyer. At the con-clusion of Hi" session Mr. Morgan shookImndu with nil the members of the com-mittee and Hevi'iitl of the corps of as-
sistants and sectoltirles, Incluiling oneof the. deorherper.i and n Capitol police-man.
Mr. Morn.in's lestlmony y fin-
ished his iippcurutii'e before the com-lnl'tr- e,
which 'r adjourned over theChrl.stuui luilidujM until January C.
l. limit llcitoall.Mr I niermer began by uuoMlontntt
Mr. Morgan in ivsml to the total ofileposltH mad" v. ltli his banking Ilrm.Mr. Morgan epies.rd the rough esti-mate that they aggregated between$100,000.0011 and SI I0.0i.ot)0. Of tillstotal t41.itiju.ouO whs held by J. P. Mor-gan To. behalf of bvventy-thre- o
inteivitule iiirpiii'dtio.u- -
Mr. rmernyer ;iic. 'ought to ascer-tain hov. iinnv n Hioci1 interstate cor-porations which deposit with Morgan& Oo. have ii. ember.-- ! of that lltm ontheir I hi. rd nf (llrectnrn. Mr .Morgancould not tel! and promised to submita stntemrnt later.
Counsel for the committee thenturned to the relation of .1 MorganA- - Oo, with railroads and other cor-poration in iho euj aclty of tlseal agent.Mr. .Mnrgi n tes.itl.il that his Ilrm hadwritten amcemeiils with the New VorktVlttllil ami allied Uium and the NewHaven ami allied lines to serve Inthis eapaciij Thete were taeit under-Mandlr.c- n
with other ciirpiiriitluns. suchIV' the Onlteil States Steel. SouthernHallway and the Northern Pacific Hall-lo-
The agreement between the Morganfirm and the New yrk Oentral waslead Into eldpnoe It piovlded that.f. P. Morgan & Co were tn lie thesole agent!: for the railroad and to actfor It whenever it aball require theservices of Uunkerx to nf Itsxecurltles. A lumnnssinn of n3 percent, of the par value of all securitieshandled by the bankers Was fixed nthe agreement r"pt in the rase, ofn security having Ks than sl vearsto run. when the commission Is to beat tlm rate, of q, of l per cent, for eachyear of the life of the srcurlt. .1. p.Morgan & Co.. Iin Hie other hand, ugreeto advance to the railroad companyupon the securities thus olTered to thepublic an collateral up to !0 per cent
f the ol.'ered price.The agreement i to ap,ily only when
both parties agree on the price atwhich the securities ore to be offeredt" the public nnd can b... terminated bycither party on thirty days notice.
Mr. Morgan testhWd ihat he was amember of tin-- board of directors of thBNew York Central and n member ofthe executive committee when thisagreement was drawn.
Tho agreement between the Morganfirm and the New Vork. New Havenand Hartford h somewhat similar, al-though no flat rate of commission Isfixed.
After reviewing .ome of the otheilorporatlons for winch .1. P. Morgan &Co. are acting a- - fiscal agents nnd Inthe direction of whose affairs they haveat the same time a voice Mr. Unter-my- rr
adds:"Don't you think It would be better
for these great Interstate railroad cor-porations If they ore entirely free to
ell their securities in open competi-tion than that they should be tied toany Banking house, however Just mightho Its methods, In the issue of suchsecurities?"
"1 should not think so." said Mr.Morgan.
snnthrrn rtallrra? .Mtaatloa,Q.
Purine ad th yivrsit has been and Is stillundr tins voting trut, tho fact Is, Is It not.that George K lUkerand you. as a majorityor the voting trustees, designate the direc-tors of that company1 A Yes, sir
0 Don't you feci that In a nense, when Iteotn'f to issuing securities of that companyand filing the prices on which they areto be iMiied, you are In sense dealing withyourselves? . I do not think so,
Mr Morzau contended that after theboard or directors had been named bythe voting trustees, the directors areIndependent, moro Independent In factthan If they had been named by theutockholders themselves.
Q. Do you think this arrangement isgood deal bettpr? A. Yes, sir.Q. And that they are more independent?
A. That they arp better.Q. Will you tell u why? A. Simply be-
cause wi! select the best people that wecan find for the position.
Q. But do you nut reall7e. speakingfrom h broad view, that a lioard thus se-lected is under the domination of the peoplewho name It? A My experience is quiteotherwise, sir
Q Is it your experience, then, that thepeople who name a board of directors andhave tln right to rename them or to dropth'ni have lc power with them than peoplewho have no concern In naming them?A Very much so, (.ir. Thatismycxperlence.
Sees nn Objection to Plan,Q And it is your theory that you see noobjection to fiscal agency agreements
bet wren directors selectrd by a votingtrust of which you and your firm are mem-bers? A. es, sir
Q. Do you not thinklit'would he entirelyfeasible, that securllles of such corpora-tions should be openly marketed and soldby competition, just as securities of thebulled Htates Uovernment and Ktato andcity governments are sold? A. I do not.y, Do you not think there should he somecompetition between the banking house
'or between the original purchaser and theiminpauy? A. No, ? should think not,
'1 Q Do you think It is for the bent tnter-"riH-
the company that it should havepatj one, purchaserarallable? A. I think ho.,tMr, MorKan pointed out that secur-
llles that tiro issued and sold do notalways provo good, but Mr. Untermyerooutended that loss never fell upon thebankers. To this statement Mr, Mor-gan took exception and promised toaubmlt data supporting his contention.Mt. Morgan Approved Steel Board.
Mr. Untermyer then turned to therclatlntiH between J. P; Morgan A Co.
nd tho Unlled states Steel Corporation.. Q, At the time of the organization of thoSital Corporation did you name the entire
'
lioard of directors? A. No I think I pa-e- d very miie'i, but we distribute to weon it think will hell' t he U--
l). Did you not a a mstler of fact name Q Do on nut know that there are miiiicthe board, pacing out a lip comainlng the ' In .Sen Vork who are never invited to
of Hie director' cntmoT say ticlp.ite? Very few. sirthat no one else bellied me In it I am will- - y Do jnii not know th.it some of theIng to n8Unie the rlnnl responsilillity, if lending banking llrnm in Se ork citythat will answer your uuetion I willsav. however, that whoever went on tlmtboard went with my approval
y. The board Is named tiy you and youiaseoclatsK? A No, sir not now
y. Nobody Is nominated for that boardwithout your approval. Is he? lies, mr.
i). Is anybody nominated for it againstjour protest? A. Not agalnt my protest
tj At annun"l elections primes are'"10 ''ontiary. he thought It likelynut, are they not, to the stockholders'
A. Yes.y Who pusses on names of the per-kon- s
who shall be the proxies to Mile Tordirectors A The finance committee
y. Is a m:mber of your firm also a mem-ber of that committee.' li". my son isa member
y And until his retirement from yourfirm .Mr Perkins was chairman of that com-mittee, was he not? A lie was tor a lime
y. Is not Judge Gary chairman offinance committee? A es.
y. You named Mr. (iary, did you not?A. I think It very likely. I do not remem-ber
Mr. Untermyer wanted to knowwho llxcd tho prices at which the va-
rious subsidiary companies were takenIn the Steel Corporalon.
you, wasn't It?" committee the muchcounsel for the committee.
"Yes," replied Morgan, "hut I
whs not always able to get It at theprice at which I thought It ought togo In."
Q. Which commllleeof theSteel Corpora-tions selects the depository of the corpora-tion? A. The finance committee.
Q. Who decided Ihat .!. P Morgan a Co.should be the depository of the United StatesSteel Corporation? That rather exofficio, 1 think.
y You mean you decided it both ways'A. When the company formed J V
Morgan A Co. had the company althat time, and I think that isthewaylt came,
Q. thought it was good business,and so you thought you would take it? A
No; I did not know whether it going tobe good business or not at that time
Q, It turned out pretty good? A. It did.Very good. Indeed,
y. You did not think were takingany chances on It being good business whenyou took It up, then? A. No; but I beganto have doubts when the stock went to IS a
y. Your doubta did interfere withyour buying heavily? A No; I bought allI could.
Had CoaBdeace In Company,y. You did not have any doubt, did you?
A Neverl not moment.y, You were getting the udvnntage nf
other peoples' doubts at that time? A.Nobody ever sold It at my suggestion, sir.
). No, I did mean to assume that Itonly Implies your confidence in the companyut that time? A. I always had it, sir.
Mr. Morgan could tell whetheror not the Steel Oorboratlon bus powerto deal In own shares, didthink tho corporation actunlly had cur-ried on deallnga.pt this character.had no knowledge of there having beenbuying and selling syndicates in steelstock.
Mr. Untermyer disclaimed any Inten-tion of intimutlng that Mr. Morgan's firmever had participated In any pools ofthis character.
Mr Un.termyer then took up with thefinancier the question of underwritingsyndicates. Mr. Morgan testified that
ato Individual and Home to Inn I; I hp unitother financial house. Hln firm hadno rejular lint of hutvaried their offom according to the dlf.ferent klndo of necuritles thatbeing;
Participations rc Profllalilr."As a Renerul thins- - II 1P.4 llnilAi-ufli- .
InR have profitable?"rum cuuiikci ror committee.
"Ych, otherwise you could Botany them talien," repllod Mr. Mor-Ka- n.
tUr" l'"'city. (o the hankliur firmsor only to nomc of ihetu that ure frlcmls ofA Oh. no! of course it varies
J. P?ier poirj.t:
those
wholo
THE SBN,, FRIDAY,. 20, 1912.
-- SasrSSSSTSi'S CHIEF WITNESS BEFORE PUJO COMMITTEE.
TalicthecHsmriheHouthernWallffar.
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbVIIbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbI
jSjBBBll II
.v.?0v0"('i?lr""",,
DECEMBER
Mor.n
do mil participate in your underwriting1i e, sir
Mr. Morgan testified that his Ilrmnlwus allotted a part of every largoIsaac to Ktiglaud, Franco and 'ier-m-
Mr Morgan belc.this wide distribution of reciirities nec-essarily made a matket them. On
the wassent
the
the the
by
not
for
llo not
Ho
for
to rctnrd the marki- -.
The New York financier couldRive a total of the sccillltles that weremarketed on the nveiage i hw ilrm ina year. Mr. I ntermyer wanted to knowif it amounted to a billion dollars.
"Oh, nowhere near it." was thei reply
Mr Mot gun that he did notthink It amounted to five or six hundredmillion dollars a year, but he wouldhave the llgures prepared,
"Id and l lmr Friends.The committee then toon up the Jointoperations between Ceorgo Maker of
the First Natlonul Hank nnd Mr. Mor-gan. Mr. Morgan testified he w.i
and member the i marked a many times."It tlve First National too time.
Mr.
was
was
You
was
sir
one
not
not
Its
sll
not
not
no,
that
Hank and that he Mr. Hakoroin ann close rrlends. Their friend-ship dated at least lTS.
C? During time your house beenof great aid to the First National liankIn building up their prosperity andthey have been of great aid.lo A Ihope so.
0. Is there any datum obtainablewould show the extent of joint or partner-ship transactions betn een the First NationalHank and your firm? A I do not think thereis any way of getting at that.
Mr. Morgan would not like to saythat his firm tho First NationalHank hod been associated In nearlyevery big enterprise. He could not ll
any In which tho First Nationalliank had been omitted, but ho feltsurn thero were some.
"I always offered them Ihad," he added.
"And they the same to you?'' saidMr. Untermyer,
"I think they would," said Mr. Mor-gan, who hnistened to explain, however,that the First National Hank lb-c-
cannot course Into Mock opera-tions, although Mr. Haltercould.
Mr. Untermyer contended, how ei pp.that both the First National Hank andMr, Haker wero important factors In tho
of the steel Corporation j
soctiiltles.Counsel called the witness's attention
to the organization of tho First Kecur-it- y
Company nnd the Oily SecurityCompany, but Sir, Morgan thathe knew nothing the details.
Hold City Bank, .Slock.0 You nie a large shareholder in I lie
National City Hank, are 3 oil not? A No,sir; not very large.
y. You have a million dollars or so instock, haven't you? A. I think so, but Ido not remember exactly how much. I
think the firm has more than I lime, Iwish I had it all
y llae they a million or so also? ANot "also." We havu It among us.
Mr. Morgan could not teJI whether orayndicate partlclpatlonx wero dlstrlli- - 'not hla hou waa tuemhei- - (if tho execu...... y "mi mi iivur uio worm, Koine tle committee tho City Hunk
participants,
wereunderwritten.
participations beenme
notof
'dilations
your
did
anc were
has
anything
goIndividually
underwriting
(J ui have h very laritH intrreMt thoNational Dank of ('oininorcc, hsvo you not?A, I do not rpiiieinhrr, not very large,about a million dollars
At this the, crowd in the roomwhere the hearing: wuh held hada koihI liitiKh. Mr. MotKun acknowl-edged that hln firm all told had (1,686.-00- 0
of Htoek In tho Natlonul Hank ofCommerce, the tlrm having $1,000,000and the Individual member" 686,00d.
Mr. Untermyer wunted to know IfMr. Morgan hud not made n considera-ble purcliii.sn in HiIm bank recently Inaddition to thu llgurcH which tho com-mltt-
had olitulned. Counsel for thecommittee made It apparent he wa
ecklnif lo find out whether Mr, Mojr- -
rrOTo ttrr0i0nr ar mtm i0aM9
Alt
was not In this country at the time.
Dues Vol WatchMr Morgan looked a irritated
when Mr. Untermyer asked himho know anything about the
details or the of directors theHank of Commerce.
"I do not know about that; I do notwatch It at all," said he.
y You do not the details as to themanagement of any of A. No.
y To whom do you refer In your
not At we dobother ourselves much about They
themselves.y Why do members of your in
oine instances two members, go on thehoard? K. Because havesto protect
y of large intsrestyou not after the all? A.
Not tn any extent.y. It the time of your partners,
dnc.4 it lint? A Ym I ra.a director of
was left to asked of
you
share.
added
of
Insistedof
(if
in
of
we
y. Hut are I suooosethey their utmost to to the pros- -
perlty of the institution? A. They alwaysdo that, I hope.
Mr. Moigun he had been con-sulted in regard to the establishmentof a voting trust for the (luarantyTrust Company, it wan done by Idapartners.
Q. You know, do you not, that two of thethree voting trustees arc members of yourfirm? A. I do not are,
Mr. Morgan testified ho had no Knowl-edge of the formation of the votingtrust of tlte Bankers Trust Company.
Svrrars bjr DaTlsosi'aAt this point Mr. Morgan turned
once or twice toward Henry P. Davison,his partner, to ask Information.
"I believe anything Davisonsays," Mr. Morgan, "and nmwilling to swear by It."
Mr. Morgan could not tell In howmany corporations he and the membersof his Arm were voting trustees. Hothought there were only two or three
outstanding. Mr, Morgan saidwhen questioned In regard to the vot-
ing trust for the International Har-vester Company that he never hadknown there w.tu one until a fewdays ago when he read It In the news-papers, Mr. Untermyer recalled alsothe voting of the International Agri-cultural Corporation, of the Chicago,Orejt Western and of the 1'rle, Head-ing and Houthern railways. Mr.
contended there had been aBaltimore and Ohio voting trust hiwhich Mr. Morgan himself wns oneof the voting trustees, but Mr. Morgandid not recall It.
tn speaking of the voting trait ofthe International Mercantile Murine,Mr. Morgan said he and Steele.Lord Plrlc and Mr. Ismay were thotrustees.
"I am glad It is you and not T,"
aald Untermyer with a wmlle."1 am ready to be anything,m1Ia1 ft trirl-u- n u!Hi u hfiirfl lnnirliy, Is It not true in thl- - country, unlike
other countries, it In difficult lo get lli"stockholders to take any active Interestin their companies? Is veryThat is n reason why a voting trust mo
desirable.that U the for lhl patrnalii..'i
on the rf'trt of the flnaneial gentlemenreorganize tho eomtuny'' A That is thereason why In reorganising a company weemploy that method.
rites IteailliiK tteporl.At this point Mr. Morgan asked to I
have read Into lii? record n reportmade by the voting trustees of thuReading lUllroad to the stockholdersIn This report shows the re-- 1
mar:;aDiy succesrui results that navebeen obtained under the voting trust.
"During that time." asked Mr. Unter-myer, "how much had tho price of coulIncreased to the consumer"
I do not know anything about,"said Morgan. ,
Q. cannot give us any Idea whetherthe Heading Company has made this moneby boosting the price of and on thcarriage of coal? A. I they havedone all could to ell it.
Q. all they could to get nil theycould for It? A. 1 do not thinkgan had obtained atock from the J eired.o' much '.
l..iultub!e Assurance Society have about selling Ithe hnd bought into that Instltu- - q. the great railroad sytem.
as
.
uon. ine witness nuci no could not , most of them, have Increaaed very muchtell anything about the matter, aa he since ItO. Is that your argument In favor
Baaka.little
whetherboard
watchthese banks?
that
large
protectionbanks
takes
great Ittakes
from
they
know they
Facts.
remarked
now
true.is
resaonwho
1904.
"ThatMr.You
coal
they
anythey
after
of a voting trust? A. is one or thearguments to show advantage of it
Traet as Protection.Mr. Morgan added that In the in-
fancy of a corporation or In Itsa voting trust, In his opinion,
Is necessary for the protection of theproperty,
Q. But would you call the fifteen yearsthe Inciplency of the Southern llaiiwav?A. No.
Q, Rut when does it get out of swaddlingPrin.' Whoever happens to be there, clothta? A. W have heen Irvine ir nfI hey do not run it , rid of It, but they will not take It.y You are doing everything you can te i Q. You mean the stockholders will notprotect the prosperity of these institutions take it? A, Yes.in which the members of your firm are I y. Do you not realize that these votingii.rcciors. are you not
that.look after
firm,
interest
In the yourdo look at
have alraritexecu- - on that
that
greatyou?
that
and
when theredo add
denied
who
forMr.
Mr.
Mr.sir,"
That
y.
think
And
Ihatthe
Voting
trusts, putting into the hands of one or afew men these great systems, tends towardenormous concentration and control?A No. sir.
Q. Do you not think that if. for instanie.you are the voting trustee of all the pyMemof railroads in the United states it con-centrates a great deal of control In you?A. No, sir, it would not That cannot he.
Q. You would not have any more con trnlthen than If you were not voting trustee?A. Not in them an. It would be a concen-tration lo my hands, but the board of direc-tors are the controlling force and you do
Continued on TMrd Papr. I
W. & J. SLOANE
Fur Rugs also mke Christmas Gifts. Ourincludes Tiger, Polar Leopard, Siberian WolfRuman Sheep and Angora.
-- SEVENTH
Sale of 210 Men'sFur-line- d Coats
at fractional prices today!a fur-lin- ed coat at such prices as these
is the very extravagance of economy
J The maker of these fur-line- d coats elected to take alose on them rather than wait indefinitely for that bitterweather which means prosperity for the furrier. Andthe price at which he offered them to us has enabled usto mark these beautiful garments at an average savingof thirty per cent, on the figures which coats of thissuperb bring.
I Made on snappy lines, with a lot of swing and style,such as you seldom sec in fur-line- d garments, even atfar higher prices. They arc tailored with all that respectfor detail which you find in a Saks for instance,and they have none of that objectionable bulk whichspoils some of the best fur-line- d garments made.
I To the man who the the utility,and the many economic advantages of a fur-line- d coatin this world of appearances, we take this occasion tointroduce him to the fur-lin- ed coat values inmany a day. Entire Sixth floor.
Men's Fur-Line- d Coats j CO CAvalue 75.00 sale price j V100 only. Don't forget that. Made of superiorblack cloth and lined with muskrat or nearseal. Fin-ished with long shawl collar of Persian or nearseal.Made with full box back and finely tailored.
Men's Fur-Line- d Coats IfiO CAvaluea 85.C0 & 90.00 .sale pric Usfii.UV100 only. Remember that. Superior black clothshells, lined with selected muskrat or marmot, andfinished with otter, nearseal, or Persian collars.
Men's Fur-Line- d i QQ CAvalue 150.00 sale price J JvJ10 only the wonder is there should be even thatmany at such a price as 98.50. They arc naturalmink-line- d coats, with Persian collars, and arc madewith box backs. And they are some coats.
$6 $7
to man coatas
3 Just 672 of these coals, and if pastcounts for these 672
will be this day is over. The se-lection shaker wool sweaters, with roughneck collars; worsted Norfolk sweaters, withand belt, auto and two patch andmedium weight all worsted with
arc whites, ma-roons and tans in the and theand arc all that you can buy for$4, $5, $6 and $7. To-da- y 2.95 at
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Practical Christmas Gifts :
FINE RUGSRug" last a under aver-
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We also carry in stock a great of high-grad- e
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with other well-know- n weaves, offering an unusually
appropriate collectionBear,
Goat, English
FIFTH
usually
overcoat,
beauty,
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Men's Sweater Coatsvalues $4, $5, and
to-da- y at $2.95a gift a a sweater
is an extremely comfortable
sweater ex-
perience garmentsabsorbed beforeembraces
strapscollar pockets;
sweaters,necks. There cardinals,
assortment, qualityfinish anywhere
Saks'.
Broadway
A GOOD should life-tim- e
serviceconstant
assortment$18,
$29 and
varietyRugs purposes
Rugs, together
selection.
Mongolian
FORTY
character
appreciates
Coats
Oxfords,
Oriental
display genuineOriental
Domes-tic designs
attractive
AVENUE
thought
anything,
ttks CompanyOpen tonight until Seven o'clock.
Open tomorrow night until Ten o'clock.
STREET JM
1 WA VictorVictrolafor Every Home!
STYLK IVSTYI.K VI.styij: VIII.STM.V. IX...ktvu: X.STYI.K XI.STYI.K XIV.STYI.K XVI
at .Mill St.
1 5.00Mar.. oi
mno.otiK7.VOI
WIOIMHIMino.ooHttOIMIII
Tho moat wonderful inuhiciil iiimiiiinent, at price to Milt all pur"
Kshy terms tnny slvi be nrrunitnl im i
letor or Victrola in nur min kThe nrleci. uf Victor machines lante trom
III) lo KM.
New December Recordsare Hunt InlrrrnliiK. Imluitr iiumtirrt. Ii u 'followliiif great arllns: .Srmhilrh llm(.luck. finilsH, nmt. Tllta HWT.i, imr'uMn'ornuck, I'.van Wllllami., Maud row'"
We arKivltiB Hpccial KeiideriiiKftho above on the
Victor Victrola.t'mnr and Hear Tliin Cmalotfuri i rwCHAS.H.DITSON&CO.,
East 34th St., near Slh
AjT r i . s rt
MORNYjS LONDON S
PARFUM LAVAL8EOf all Ili thClaaa Retailers.
