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Healing the Microbiome & Thyroid Can Heal Gastrointestinal Illness Guest: Dr. Raphael Kellman The purpose of this presentation is to convey information. It is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure your condition or to be a substitute for advice from your physician or other healthcare professional. Donna: Dr. Raphael Kellman is a pioneer in functional medicine, with a holistic and visionary

approach to healing. In 17 years of practice, he’s treated more than 40,000 patients. Many of them have come to him from all over the world, usually after suffering without help for years. Dr. Kellman helps people regain their health by gaining a deeper understanding of what it means to heal and getting to the root cause of the disease. He’s also the author of Matrix Healing, Gut Reactions. And most recently, he published The Microbiome Diet, drawing on the latest research in biochemistry, metabolism, hormones, genetics, environment, emotions, and life circumstances to help people achieve optimal health. Dr. Kellman has been interviewed by Deepak Chopra for his show One World. He’s been on numerous radio and TV talk shows. And he’ll soon be hosting his own upcoming podcast series called The Healing Power Hour. He’s also a frequent public speaker on the topics of autism, thyroid, holistic health, and the gut microbiome. And today, we’re going to be talking about the microbiome and the thyroid and why they’re the key to gut health and to healing gastrointestinal illnesses. Welcome, Dr. Kellman! Dr. Kellman: Thank you, Donna. It’s a pleasure to be here!


Donna: Well, just to get started, I just want to let you know that we’ve got people listening, thousands and thousands of practitioners that, of course, they know what the microbiome is. And, of course, they know a lot already about the thyroid and so on. But you can always learn more, no matter how much you know. But then we also have an audience of people who are very new to this. So just to start with the basics, would you just describe the microbiome? What is the microbiome? And just give us a sense of what it is and what it’s doing and why we have one. Dr. Kellman: Yes. So the microbiome is a vast collection or entity of trillions of bacteria that outnumber us, in terms of number of cells, outnumber our own cells 10 to 1. That means we are mostly bacteria. But here’s the most important point about this incredible ecosystem is that these bacteria are the good guys. We’ve been taught for the last 150 years, Donna, that bacteria are bad. When people think of bacteria, they think of something bad. They think that it’s something that’s going to hurt us or attack us. It’s the opposite from reality. In fact, most bacteria, over 80% of the identified bacteria are actually protective or beneficial that work together with us to maintain a healthy ecosystem, especially the ones in our gastrointestinal tract. If we have a healthy microbiome of this vast entity of bacteria, these bacteria are the good guys. They’re here and they’ve evolved with us. They’ve been with us for billions of years and developed with us actually to play an integral role in maintaining our health, and not just maintaining our health, actually to help us overcome adversity, to help us overcome health issues and dysfunction, to help us overcome challenges—biologically, physiological, stress challenges, and also to educate the immune system in utero as the fetus is developing.


And even after birth, it plays an integral role in the education of our immune system because the immune system has to learn something very, very important. That it’s supposed to protect us, but at the same time, meaning protect from toxins, pollutants, and from certain rogue bacteria that may not be fitting into our ecosystem that may be potentially dangerous to us or parasites or etcetera or other infectious diseases. But there’s a fine balance between protecting us and actually hurting us at the same time, meaning collateral damage. You’re trying to attack, let’s say a foreign bacteria that doesn’t fit well into the vast ecosystem that’s supposed to protect us. And while the immune system may go and attack it, it can then have collateral damage and affect our immune system. So the immune system has to be finely tuned. Guess what? The microbiome is its great teacher. It actually educates the immune system to do what it’s supposed to do. But it goes further than that, Donna. The microbiome, remember that it’s been around for billions of years—3.3 billion years. Bacteria were like the first players in this incredible story of life. They’ve been there from the get go. So they play an integral role in the development of life, especially human lives. Not only does it affect the gut wall and the gut health and the immune system, but it has far reaches into the deep recesses of the brain. We know very little about how the brain works. It’s the most mysterious organ. It’s something that it might, at least for me and for many folks, it invokes a sense of wonder and awe, the brain, the human brain. And we know so little about it. Well, the microbiome knows a lot about it because it was there from the get go, as the brain evolved and developed. And by the way, the brain is evolving and developing right now. It’s not just over a period of years or billions of years. But it’s actually evolving all the time and developing with the aid of the microbiome. The microbiome, the gut bacteria also know our genetics. It knows how to


turn genes on and off. Genes are not just a string of nucleotides of chemicals that are read in like a liner sequence. But they’re turned on and off and combined in different sequences like a great pianist plays a keyboard. But what’s interesting is that the microbiome, gut bacteria, play a very, very important role in regulating and turning these genes on and off because genes are not read in a linear sequence. Some genes are turned on. Some are turned off. They’re played in different sequences. And the microbiome plays a very, very important role in turning some of these genes on and off in what we call a very critical role in epigenetics. But also, the microbiome supplies an incredible reservoir of genes, of DNA, which is really the language of life. So it’s the microbiome that provides most of our DNA. And it’s constantly changing because the bacteria have the exquisite ability to constantly shuffle and transfer bacteria amongst themselves, amongst bacteria outside of the body. And this is one of the main reasons why the bacteria has been so “chosen” to be the vehicle to help us grow and develop and to evolve and reach great potential. Donna: Well, besides the bacteria being in there, I know there are viruses and fungi. What role are they playing? Do we know enough yet about this amazing world inside us to see, for example, the virus is the virone? Dr. Kellman: Yes. Donna: Could you talk about that because no one’s talked about that at all in any of the interviews. Dr. Kellman: Yeah. And also bacteriophages. So within every microbiome is another microbiome and then another one and then another one. It goes on and on. So within bacterial microbiomes, then you’ll find another layer. And then, you’ll find maybe viral microbiomes. So it’s really quite incredible how this ecosystem just goes on and on with deeper and deeper layers. You wonder


if it just extends into infinity. But there’s only so much that we know about right now. And there’s only how far deep could we really excavate. But we do know this. That it’s quite vast. And there is a viral ecosystem and a viral microbiome, so to speak. And the bacteriophages also add to the complexity. We’re just scratching the surface of the bacterial microbiome. So when it comes to viruses, it becomes even more complicated. But the best thing that we can do to keep that level healthy is by following the same rules and the same principles that we follow to improve the bacterial microbiome. But more is going to be learned about these different layers. Absolutely. Donna: So they’re not necessarily a bad thing. Dr. Kellman: Oh, no, no. I think, Donna, in general, we have to change the conception from bacteria, virus, pathogens, from this conception that it’s all bad, everyone’s out to get us, to that they all play an integral role in maintaining the whole. We’re part of a vast whole. And they play a very, very important role. Without bacteria and viruses, we wouldn’t be able to maintain our health. We probably wouldn’t be able to survive. They play again an integral role in our evolution and in our development. So the pathogen, what we used to consider pathogens, really by and large are not pathogens. They become pathogens when our immune system breaks down or the ecosystem as a whole is imbalanced. You see, there’s no good or bad pathogen. It’s all in relationship to the whole that they participate in. And I believe that within every bacteria, that it has the potential of being a great ally for us in improving our health, but put in different circumstances and a different ecology or an “unhealthy” ecology, then that same bacteria that could have very important life-enhancing effects for us, can actually cause adverse effects. So in other words, it’s all about the context. It’s not about the individual


organism. It’s all about the context. Maintain a healthy context, and we’ll be much less afraid of the outside “bacterial and viral world.” And that it’s again, the important point is to create a healthy and whole ecosystem. Donna: So many people today have gastrointestinal illnesses of all kinds: SIBO, Crohn’s, colitis, cancer in their bowels. What is it that doctors are usually missing when they try to treat these disorders? Dr. Kellman: Yes, Donna, I’ll tell you. Look, I could tell you what I find clinically. And I’ve been doing this for many years. I always say this to people. “What I know is by what I see with my eyes.” A lot of people go about it the other way. They look at the research. And then based on the research, that’s the pair of glasses they use to see what they see. But now, while, of course, we need to know the literature, we need to know the science, you have to be able to put that aside and look afresh and each time you see your patients and open up to the possibilities that you may see something very, very new and different that wasn’t described in the literature. And what you see with your eyes will then help you formulate new theories because if you’re stuck in the old theories and you follow that as the dogma, then you’re not going to be able to see something new and be able to formulate new ideas and theories. So I’ll tell you what I’ve seen over the years. That when you have a gut issue, especially when it becomes chronic and it’s not getting better, you have to start looking outside of the gut to some of your answers. Absolutely, you have to look into the microbiome, even if you think, “What does it have to do with my reflux? What does it have to do with my colitis? What does it have to do with my colon cancer? What does it have to do with my diverticulitis, etcetera?” It has a tremendous role. And that, more and more people are beginning to


realize that the microbiome plays a huge role in all kinds of gastrointestinal disorders. And it extends way outside of the gut into numerous diseases like brain issues and autoimmune issues, etcetera. But fewer people realize the critical role of the thyroid in relationship to gut disease. Let me explain a little bit about the thyroid. Donna: Well, that was my next question about the thyroid. How is the thyroid connected to the gut and the microbiome? Dr. Kellman: So the thyroid plays, Donna, a critical role in maintaining cellular energy production. And because it’s situated between the body and the brain—it’s in the neck—it has a tremendous role to play in our overall health. It’s almost like on the level of the brain in terms of its role in affecting our overall health. And here’s the problem. The endocrine disrupter that we are unfortunately surrounded by, bathing in, plays such a critical role in the pathogenesis of diseases today. We have to think about why are we so susceptible today to so many chronic diseases? And if you go back far enough, one of the critical deeper causes for so many of our chronic health issues are environmental toxins. And then, you have to think about, “Well, what are they affecting?” Well, they’re affecting the endocrine system, first and foremost, and the endocrine disruptors. And they specifically can play a role in affecting the thyroid function. Therefore, because endocrine disruptors is a key or one of the main reasons why we’re experiencing so many chronic diseases, and its affecting the thyroid, then we have to think about, “Well, how is that affecting so many other chronic diseases?” Well, since the thyroid is what’s responsible for cellular energy production, if


the thyroid’s not functioning properly, then virtually every system in the body is likely to become dysfunctional. So if the thyroid’s not functioning properly…Now, you may not even have any symptoms related to hyperthyroidism. It could be happening silently because it could be what we call subclinical. Or they’re not even picking it up on blood testing. And yet suboptimal thyroid function can change cellular function. It can lead to subtle inflammation. It could lead to toxic build up. It could lead to unhealthy metabolism of hormones. Let’s say estrogen hormones. A sub optional thyroid function can then lead to a change in the way hormones are metabolized. And certain metabolites of hormones are more likely to cause cancer than other metabolites. Like, for example, this 16-hydroxyestradiol, which is a metabolite—a break down product of estrogen—is more likely to cause estrogen-related female cancers and even male cancers like prostate, than the metabolite called 2-hydroxyestradiol. And when one has hypothyroidism—and I see this all the time—one is much more likely to develop abnormalities in the way hormones are metabolized. And you’ll see an increase in 16-hydroxyestradiol and a decrease in 2-hydroxyestradiol. And that’s just one example. So low thyroid, even if it’s subclinical, because of the endocrine disrupters, are very, very important cores of the chronic diseases. Now, if you look at some gut function, bacterial low thyroid function, even if it’s subtle…You may not have any other symptom. You may not even complain of fatigue. But it can cause bacterial overgrowth in the gut. It can cause the gut not to function as well. So the peristalsis, the muscular contractions are not as effective. And even though you don’t think you have some constipation, but you’re not fully evacuating, you’re more susceptible to bacterial overgrowth. And that can set


the stage for inflammation, which can then set the stage for a wide variety of gastrointestinal disorders, including colon cancer. So this is just one of the ways that a low thyroid can affect gastrointestinal function. And, of course, it can affect the cardiovascular system. We now know that even a very, very minimal thyroid dysfunction by a TSH level of 2.5, which seems normal to most clinicians, that will lead to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. So hypothyroidism is one of the great and underappreciated risk factors for cardiovascular disease. It’s one of the very, very important risk factors for neurodegenerative disorders. And yet, it’s terribly overlooked for a number of reasons. I shall explain perhaps in the next question or two. But absolutely, when it comes to the gut, what’s being missed and one of the reasons why people are not overcoming their gut diseases as quickly as possible or as efficiently as possible or not at all, is because what’s being missed is some degree of hypothyroidism that may have been the original cause, or now it could be the effect of the gut problem. And the effect, could then become the cause. So if you have a gut issue, let’s say reflux, think about—and you’re not getting better and even though you’re taking different herbs and you’re still not seeing good enough results—think about hypothyroidism as one of the reasons why you’re not overcoming the problem of reflux. Again, when you have reflux, the food is not moving sufficiently downstream. Muscles are not functioning as well as they should be in the gut. The valves are not functioning as well as they should be in the gastrointestinal tract. You’re not producing enough hydrochloric acid. Which all leads to suboptimal gut function, which then obviously can lead to reflux. And I see this frequently that, especially for those with chronic reflux—and it’s not getting better—there’s a very, very good chance that there’s undiagnosed


hypothyroidism. Donna: Well, I know 20% of the thyroid hormone is made—T4—is made in the gut. And so if you have an unhealthy gut, you’re going to lose 20% of your thyroid hormone. That seems like a significant amount. Dr. Kellman: That’s right. Donna: It’s really a two-way street. You got to have a healthy gut to have a healthy thyroid. You got to have a healthy thyroid to have a healthy gut. Is what you’re saying basically? Dr. Kellman: Absolutely. And they affect each other. If your thyroid is low, as you said, you’re more likely to develop various gastrointestinal disorders, whether it’s SIBO, bacterial overgrowth, that’s manifested as bloating, cramps, discomfort, weight gain, constipation or whether it’s diverticulitis or diverticulosis or colitis, autoimmune diseases, or as I said before reflux. But also the opposite is true, too, especially when it’s longstanding. If you have chronic gut issues, you’re much more likely to develop a secondary low thyroid for many, many reasons: one, inflammation; two, autoimmune; toxic buildup is the third. But the more elusive cause is that the subtle inflammation that comes with longstanding, especially longstanding gut issues leads to various forms of low thyroid that is very difficult to pick up on routine testing. It can lead to low tissue levels of thyroid hormones, especially T3 and possibly an increase in reverse T3, which can block thyroid function. And if it’s really going on long term, one can develop an entity called NTIS, which is non-thyroidal illness syndrome where actually the pituitary and hypothalamus, which regulates the thyroid goes into low gear. And in the end, the thyroid’s producing a lower amount of thyroid hormone. It could be so


subtle, it’s missed by routine tests. And in the tissues, the levels are really low. But you’ll never know it just by doing routine blood tests. In fact, there was a study with people with gastritis and reflux on tissue examination of the esophagus and the stomach, there were low levels of T3, thyroid hormone T3. And yet, the blood tests were completely normal. And I see this, not just with reflux. I see low thyroid with chronic colitis. It’s almost a guarantee. If you have long-standing colitis or Crohn’s, there’s a very good chance you have hypothyroidism that’s being missed. And if you don’t treat that component of the thyroid, it makes it so much more difficult to fully overcome the gut disorder that you’re suffering from. Donna: Well, years ago—well actually, I guess now three, three and a half years ago—it was definitely before you’d written The Microbiome Diet, you were working on it because we chatted about this. But you were there at the Autism Conference talking about a unique way of testing the thyroid. Wasn’t it testing it? Dr. Kellman: Yes, Donna. Yes. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. Again, this is very important for patients out there. For people who are suffering from, whether it’s a gut issue, irrespective of what the gut issue or general symptoms like fatigue and inability to lose weight and brain fog and constipation, perhaps depression. Just because the routine thyroid blood tests are normal and your doctor tells you your thyroid tests are normal, don’t necessarily believe it. There’s so much controversy about routine thyroid blood testing. We could spend three hours talking about it. We’re not going to do it. Just, I hope the audience just gets this very important message. “Go with your gut,” no pun intended. That if you feel there’s something wrong with your hormones, with your thyroid, you’re probably right. And the best thing that I can say is try to get a very expansive blood test.


Now, I’ll tell you want these hormones are that should be tested: TSH, total T4, total T3, free T4, free T3, and anti-TPO antibodies, anti-thyroglobulin antibodies, reverse T3. And if you could convince your doctor to go even further to measure for inflammatory markers like TNF-alpha, interleukin-6, CRP—Why? Because if these are high, you’re much more likely to be suffering from low tissue levels of thyroid hormone even though the bloods are normal. And you may have an element of what I mentioned before, NTIS. The best test, in my opinion—and I use this and I’m always encouraging the medical community to revisit this very, very important test—is called a TRH stimulation test. And I didn’t make up the test. The test was always used. But doctors in 1996-1997, they came to some consensus, “Eh, we don’t need this TRH test anymore.” Donna: What does it stand for? And you mentioned a little bit earlier NTIS. And just I remember there’s even practitioners, I think you’re going into an area where many of them, this is new. And so let’s dwell on this and even repeat it sometimes if you don’t mind. You mentioned NTIS. But I think right there, some people started thinking, “Well, what is that?” And then go over those inflammatory markers again and why. Why would you have your doctor go beyond the full panel TSH, antibodies, and so on, the TPO? Why would you say, “Okay, and please test for this?” Now, by the way, one question is most people, their doctor is testing only TSH, why don’t doctors do a complete panel? Do they not know any better? Or it’s a money thing? Or why do they not do this? Dr. Kellman: Donna, it’s just a big mistake. They come out with certain suggestions or advice of how to test. But that’s good for general screening for those who feel well. But when you’re looking to identify the source and the cause of someone suffering, my God, look deeper. Do everything possible to try to better understand.


We’ll get CAT scans and MRIs left and right. But we can’t expand the thyroid blood test to beyond TSH and free T4? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s just illogical thinking, lack of a progressive way of understanding health and healing. It’s rooted in a number of reasons. But the bottom line is that doctors have to expand their way of understanding the origins of disease and suffering. So as I said before, if the thyroid is likely to be playing a very, very important role in someone’s symptoms, then by God, look deeper, do a more expanded test and also to be aware of this entity called NTIS. Now, it’s not going to be found frequently in the New England Journal of Medicine. Yet, again, this is what I mentioned before. You have to look with your eyes and see what you see in front of you and forget about the theories and look to see if you’re seeing someone with a long-standing gut problem that they’d been suffering for a long time. The gut plays such an integral role in one’s health because of the absorption of nutrients because it can lead to inflammation, etcetera. The gut is integral to our health. If someone has long-standing gut problems, it’s likely going to have systemic effects. And this is one of the reasons why long-standing gut issues can cause thyroid disease. And then, the thyroid disease will make the gut issue even worse. And then, you can’t heal the issue until you heal the thyroid issue. And one of the reasons why this happens is because when you have chronic gut issues, you’re more likely to develop inflammation. And the research shows that if the TNF-alpha—these are markers for inflammation—or inter-leukin-6 is high, then you’re much more likely to have this condition called NTIS—non-thyroidal illness syndrome—where what’s happening is that on a tissue level, T4 may not be converted. And in the liver, it may not be converting sufficiently to T3. It may be converting to a hormone called reverse T3, which may block thyroid function. Additionally, in this state called NTIS, you may even have a downregulation of the hypothalamus and


pituitary function. Donna, I see this clinically. When someone is suffering from gut issues for a long time, there’s a very good chance the hypothalamus and the pituitary is in a downregulated state, in a hibernating state. And that’s another reason why they feel tired. And unfortunately they continue to suffer with this chronic disease. Now, there are a number of reasons why this happens. I think the research is showing that there could be messages to the hypothalamus that’s creating this downregulated state. The interleukins like the IL-6 and TNF-alpha may be playing a role. But it’s more likely that those inflammatory markers are affecting the peripheral conversion of or blocking the peripheral conversion of T4 to T3. But without getting into the details, with chronic gut issues—this is what I see with my eyes—is a very good chance, in addition to what’s happening on the tissue levels, the hypothalamus and the pituitary is going into some suboptimal, downregulated state. By the way, Donna, we see this with chronic fatigue syndrome that some cellular attempt to regulate itself in face of a lot of inflammation and toxins, mitochondrial function diminishes to protect the cells and the organs from damage. It’s an entity that we see in chronic fatigue syndrome, too. It’s quite similar to NTIS. When I’m talking about gut issues, long-standing reflux, long-standing SIBO—small intestinal bacterial overgrowth—colitis, Crohn’s disease, etcetera, absolutely. And you know something, the research shows chronic stress and depression and anxiety leads to this entity called NTIS. And isn’t years of gut dysfunction leading to stress and anxiety? So let’s not be so surprised when we see elevated markers of inflammation, very elusive blood testing that, in fact, this patient that you’re trying to treat or you the listener who’s suffering with these


issues, that one of the reasons why you’re still suffering is because the thyroid element was not tested for adequately. And it certainly wasn’t treated. Donna: So we’re talking again about more two-way streets there. And inflammation in the gut is going to affect inflammation in the body. You’ll have inflammation in the brain. Inflammation in the brain is affecting the gut. It’s all tied together pretty much. Dr. Kellman: Oh, Donna, it’s like such an intricate loop. The effect becomes the cause. The cause becomes the effect. People always ask me. “Which came first? Was this the cause? Was this the effect?” I said at this point, ten years into the suffering, it’s all the same. The effect has become the cause. And it’s just one loop. We have to start from a number of sides. We have to treat you from a number of perspectives to turn this around, to get the signals to the brain, to the body, that you are becoming healthy again so that the hypothalamus and the pituitary gets out of this ill and diseased state of mine so that you can truly reverse your disease with all the new treatment options that are available. But again, if there’s a mind signal, a software signal saying you’re still sick, you can take all the herbs in the world or all the medications in the world, and you’re going to remain sick. And one of the ways to signal to the body that healing is started, it’s time to go out of the hibernation to reclaim your health and to become empowered with vitality again, is by healing the microbiome. And why is that? Because again, the microbiome has been around from the beginning of lives. And I believe it holds the signals of life because it has such a reservoir of DNA, which is the language of life itself. If we can really improve the microbiome and the gut in this way, in other words, improving the microbiome in addition to the gut work that so many of the practitioners and the health experts that are on this Summit tell us about,


in addition to really heal the microbiome, that’s going to send great signals to get the body to heal, once again for the gut to get healed for you to overcome reflux, colitis, SIBO, etcetera. And the main ways for doing this is for sure the dietary changes. Donna: Well, let’s move into the diet. Do you think probiotic supplements are powerful enough to do this? Are you a proponent of probiotic foods? Or is the diet the first place to start? Dr. Kellman: Well, that’s a great question. I think, first and foremost, we have to work on the diet to heal the gut and to heal the microbiome. And it has to be a very personalized diet for the microbiome. The microbiome diet has a few different facets and a few different applications. There’s the microbiome diet that focuses, in a very personalized way, on those that have a particular microbiome that can be described as one that has a lot of bacterial overgrowth, that there’s a very significant imbalance in the microbiome with an overgrowth of particular types of bacteria that we identify on, either breath testing or on what we call autonomic response testing to see which bacteria are overgrowing. Now, that microbiome diet, that personalized microbiome diet focuses on removing or pruning this microbiome, removing the unfriendly bacteria. So about two or even three months, we focus on removing the overgrowth of these particular bacteria that really don’t play a healthy role in the microbiome ecology. And that means the diet has to be removing all grains for a period of time, including the gluten-free grains, reducing even beans, legumes significantly or even completely eliminating it, reducing or sometimes even removing a lot of the fruits, but not all of the fruits, and then certain herbs and supplements to balance the microbiome.


Now, there’s another microbiome diet, personalized microbiome diet, that we use for a different type of microbiome. So the type of microbiome that one has determines what type of diet we feel is best to overcome the health issues to heal the microbiome, to improve metabolism, and even to help people with weight loss. And it could be quite dramatic. If you use the right personalized microbiome diet for a particular person, it can significantly help someone lose weight. Even if they’ve been trying to lose weight for months or years with so many diets, getting them on the right personalized microbiome diet could be very, very effective. Donna: Well, can I just interrupt you a second there and say this because I think this is really important having interviewed a lot of experts so far. People have alluded to this. But nobody’s come right out and said like you are right now. There is a microbiome diet. There are certain foods that the microbes love to eat. They’re pre-foods. They help them grow and make the short-chained fatty acids and so on. But I love what you’re saying that it has to be personalized, that there isn’t just one. Because if you listen to certain people that are experts in feeding the microbiome, they’ll say, “Eat onions, garlics, leeks.” The bacteria loves leeks.” And yet here is somebody who eats those foods. And they’re just in misery and pain because it’s the wrong time to eat them. They’ve got issues going on that have to be corrected first and foremost before they even can begin to eat those foods again. And so this is really an important point that you’re bringing up here. That’s why I wanted to just make sure that people understood the importance of what we’re talking about right now. I have said this to people. And for so many years I’ve been teaching them body ecology, about the Body Ecology Diet. But


I’ve always said the principle of uniqueness dictates that we have to change what we eat based on what our needs are. And now, we could go on, since we know about the gut microbiome with all the creatures living there, that we believe this principle applies here, too. We have to once again have it personalized. So I love what you’re saying. So onions, garlics, leeks, lentils, normally they would be good. Dr. Kellman: But not for everyone. It depends on your personal personalized microbiome. If your particular type of microbiome is such that it’s characterized by bacterial overgrowth and also some very specific bacteria, which is a whole other discussion, which we can actually determine based on testing, whether it’s the breath testing or sometimes stool testing or autonomic response testing, is we can actually tell the type of or at least get a good clue as to what type of microbiome we’re dealing with. Donna: What is that, an autonomic response testing? Dr. Kellman: Well, it’s interesting. Yeah, it’s a little bit like kinesiology. But we test how the autonomic nervous system is responding based on different slides of bacteria or parasites that we put in someone’s biofield, meaning just around them. And by testing the way their body responds, it seems like we’re testing muscle function. But we’re really not. We’re really testing how the autonomic nervous system is responding to a particular bacteria or group of bacteria. We do this, by the way, for like Lyme disease. We do this for parasites. We do this for various bacteria that are more likely to characterize a particular microbiome. And based on that, we would then come to this determination that this type of microbiome needs this personalized microbiome diet. And for a different type of microbiome that we determine based on the types of testing that we do, we would say that this type of microbiome that you have, you need this personalized microbiome diet. And the two could be very, very different types


of microbiome diets. In the end, Donna, we definitely want people for these two diets to converge where people are definitely consuming eating a lot of the microbiome-friendly foods, whether it’s a Jerusalem artichoke or leeks, etcetera. But the question is at what time do you start to introduce that diet and how much of it do you offer? So what do you recommend? So for those that we decide has, let’s call it microbiome A. We’re going to tell them for the first three months to remove these types of foods that we may be recommending to another type of microbiome. You see. So we’ll tell that first group, no leeks, none of those vegetables that you think would be a good idea to introduce, to really eliminate the legumes and beans and to eliminate all grains, even the gluten-free grains for a period of time. And then, we make the transition to a microbiome-friendly foods type of personalized diet. Donna: Anytime you change your diet, let’s say you decide to be vegan for a week or two or the summer, and you’ve been Paleo, what about the transition? Like, how long does it take the microbes to get used to the new foods you are sending down because from what I understand it can happen very quickly. But there is a transition. What have you seen? Dr. Kellman: Well, it could rapidly adapt to a changing environment, to a changing diet. It’s really one of the exquisite abilities of the microbiome. If the diet is healthy, it can quickly adapt within days. Donna: That’s good news. Dr. Kellman: Absolutely. It’s really about whether you’re introducing healthy foods to the microbiome or whether you’re a vegan or whether you’re eating meat, the microbiome can adapt very, very quickly. And that’s the good news. And that’s really due to the incredible power of the gut bacteria that they can really adapt so quickly.


By the way, this is one of the main reasons why the Paleo diet is, at least in this regard, terribly flawed because one of their assumptions is that we couldn’t adapt quickly enough to agricultural changes. But we and our genes can’t, but the microbiome can. Gut bacteria can adapt quite quickly to agricultural changes. Donna: I’m so glad you brought that up because I had that same frustration. 10,000 years ago, man was finally intelligent enough to realize, “Let’s stop roaming around, traveling long distance just to try to find food. Let’s make life simpler. And let’s grow our own food and raise some animals that will give us food. That to me was a progression in our development. But the Paleo people tend to make it sound like it’s a real downfall. But science shows, not only did our own…Actually, our genes adapted and our microbiome adapted, but also, so did our good friend the dogs. They were coming around to eating scraps and eating what we had. And their microbiome changed, too. So we always think, “Well, they’re wolves. Well, they come from the wolves. So they should eat that way, raw food.” But that’s not true either. I’m so glad. I just wanted to get that out there so that we can end that argument because this is absolutely the truth. The genes do adapt and the gut microbes do adapt. And the most ancient ancestor that any of us have are the bacteria. That’s truly who we should look to, our ancestors. So let’s see what they’re doing. Dr. Kellman: That’ right. Go even further than Paleo. Donna: Right. And so in The Microbiome Diet book, can you describe how you guide people into the direction? Like, how do they know which microbiome diet is right for them if they’re healthy, they’ve got gut problems? Dr. Kellman: Well, in that first book, I really did not describe sufficiently this


concept of the personalized microbiome diet because it’s evolving as we speak. It’s certainly going to be in the next book. I do focus, to some degree, on the remove phase. The first R is to remove bacterial overgrowth. But I tell everyone to do that for a period of time. But there are some people that need to spend a lot of time on the removing. Now, of course, it’s always best to do the types of testing that we do. But not everyone’s going to able to have access to that. So what I could say to our listeners is that if one of your significant symptoms is bloating and another one may be gas and may be dyspepsia, belching, and burping, then really consider that your type of microbiome needs a particular personalized diet that focuses on removing all of these potential problematic foods that can feed the unhealthy bacteria. So that means remove all grains for two months or so, remove the legumes, and remove a lot of the fruits. But some are okay. Like some of the berries, perhaps, apples. And then slowly, maybe two months later, start introducing the foods that are very, very important for the microbiome. Donna: Now, we can hear that you’re a father. So what did you and your wife do when your children were born to make sure that they started life of with a healthy microbiome? And then, if we can expand that to the many people listening that don’t really have gut problems anymore, or let’s say they’re parents and they have children that they’re raising or they’re planning to have a baby, what’s some advice you would give on starting the microbiome and maintaining a healthy one, once you have a healthy one? Dr. Kellman: That’s a good question. Well, first of all, keep only one bottle of Purell in your house and use it sparingly. I think that we have this phobia of bacteria. And number one, let’s change our conception of bacteria, that they are our best allies and that getting dirty, being in the dirt, and having bacteria, even on some of your fruits and vegetables, if it comes from the earth, it’s a good thing. You don’t have to wash all your vegetables if they’re


organic. Donna: And you can even do that living in New York, there in Manhattan, right? Dr. Kellman: Yes. Yes. Right. So, first and foremost is let’s change our conception of the world that we live in. We don’t live in a cold, brute, and hostile world where bacteria are out to get us. Bacteria and us live together in a wonderful ecology that’s, in my opinion, the opposite of the survival of the fittest. It’s about the survival of the holist. And then let’s be very, very careful to tend to our greatest allies, the bacteria. Just that alone, will go so far in keeping us healthy. In some way, I have this intuition that the bacteria sense this. This doesn’t sound very scientific. But I’m saying it, anyway. That bacteria sense this interconnectedness based on what we’re feeling and how we’re relating to them. That is the most important point to make. And the first step to take to improve our microbiome is change our relationship with them, is to befriend them like they’re befriending us, at least in heart and in mind. And that’s going to change everything. That’s going to set the stage for an improvement in microbiome, an improvement in gut health. And it will change the trajectory of our lives. It will also be the main impetus for us to make practical changes. Number one, we’re going to be much more careful about the use of antibiotics. We’re going to realize quickly that most of our antibiotics are consumed, not because of the antibiotics that we’re taking from the doctor, but from the chicken and the meat that we’re eating. That’s where 80% of our antibiotics are found. Eighty percent of the antibiotics that ends up in us, comes from the foods that we’re eating. So let’s reconsider what type of chicken we’re eating and what type of meat we’re eating.


Now, we’ll go to the next step. Because of a new conception of our world, of our environment, of our ecology is remember that bacteria are a repository of DNA, of the language of life. Why would we want to throw into that wonderful mix GMOs? Genes that are manmade, that are a change from what we see in nature. Donna: I don’t think people understand the profoundness of doing, like the negative, what’s so bad about it. But I was reading something about the viruses and what the viruses do and how they actually transfer information like genetic information, say, from those genetically altered bacteria into the other bacteria. So that’s a big, big deal. What kind of Frankenmonsters are we creating down inside our gut to eventually grow up? What are we doing? Dr. Kellman: Donna, it’s about education. We have to realize that bacteria are basically the language of life. They supply DNA. The DNA is the blueprint, the language of life. From all that DNA, life creates, God creates the diversity that we see in life. We’re made up of the same language. Whether, it’s a plant, whether it’s a tree, or whether it’s a giraffe, or whether it’s a dog, it all comes from the same language, the same DNA, the same language of life. Donna: Well, I’m really glad you said that about the microbiome contains the language of life because it’s a beautiful thing. It’s poetic. It’s very, very spiritual. Every single person I’ve interviewed for the summit, you can see that they’re such kind, giving, thoughtful people that care. Their whole life has been devoted to trying to bring about this change, this crisis that we’re in. We have to all work together to address it. But if everybody, I know, all the medical doctors I know, functional doctors, you have such a beautiful, poetic, spiritual way of explaining things. We’re running out of time. I’d love it if you would just leave us with a why you have this sense of wonder and awe about life and the microbiome and the body and the way it works? I’m just going to let you leave us with a beautiful, inspirational thought.


Dr. Kellman: Yes, Donna. First of all, thank you very much. And I appreciate that you recognize that. And it’s definitely something that I focus on. Where I’m most interested, Donna, in the microbiome is the implications of the microbiome because it’s I think teaching us a great, great lesson. And it’s teaching us a whole new way of seeing the world that we live in to better understanding life and to better understanding ourselves, the human being. The microbiome is a great display of giving from one to the other. It’s an incredible display of altruism, in the sense that the microbiome plays such an incredible role in keeping us healthy and in such a deep way. And also the microbiome, how it works together as a collective whole in this great dance of giving and receiving, where each part is focused on receiving just what it needs to survive. But the biggest focus is how it lives as a collective whole because it’s almost as if it understands that being part of a collective whole creates a much greater existence, a much greater, a much more deep meaningful, wonderful life as part of a great whole. And you see this displayed in the microbiome. It’s almost impossible not to see it. I see over time that doctors or scientists are going to see this. And this layer that can block us from seeing the wander and awe that you speak about is going to be stripped away because we’re going to see this incredible display of giving. This great dance of life that we see that the microbiome displays of giving and receiving to create this incredible ecosystem that plays an integral role in the human being. And also, that it’s leading to a very, very obvious self-evident conclusion that it’s no longer survival of the fittest. That’s an outdated way of thinking. It’s not survival of the fittest. It’s survival of the holist because we don’t evolve alone as individuals like the one with the biggest muscle survives and the greatest power and prowess survives. No, it’s the collective. It’s the cohesiveness and wholeness of the whole, us and our bacteria, us and the other organisms and


human beings in our ecosystem. We are part of a whole and we evolve as a whole. And its about the survival of the holist. And therefore, it’s where the human emotions and the human element that we put into this wholeness, into this ecology that plays the biggest role. So therefore, it will no longer one day be unscientific to say that selflessness and giving and compassion and caring plays a critical role in overall healing, in individual healing, in collective healing, and the health of nations, the health of our ecosystem, and the future of our individual and collective lives. And it will lead to another very, very important conclusion that will be difficult not to see that while we were taught, and it still serves as the basic premise that guides the way society thinks, behaves, and functions, that we live in a cold, brute, hostile world of survival of the fittest, dog eat dog world, the microbiome will be, I think, one of the mediums that will help many of us change to see that, in fact, “No, the world is not a cold, brute, and hostile world. But it’s a world that’s built on kindness.” And that’s the essential point of life. And that’s why when our emotions are focused on those very, very important human emotions like kindness and selflessness and overcoming negative behavior, we will see significant improvement in the health of our societies. And by the way, I believe that you always resonated with the gut, in the sense that you recognize. And people who are involved in this angle of gut health, that it does help us see health in a very, very different way, in a cooperative way. And that changes us, too. And I think that this will be an incredible opportunity to make great progress, both on a personal level and on a global health level, as well, the more the microbiome gets out there. Donna: Well, as you were talking, I was beginning to have this realization that you’ve just really a perfect job of describing why there are two kinds of people in the world. There’s your regular, traditional doctors, who you go to them.


You’re the kind of person that wants a doctor who their answer for you is drugs, surgery, and radiation. And you’re not going to change your diet and make that effort. And then, you’ve got your other doctors, functional medicine doctors. They’re on the side that you described, have a real sense of awe and wonder about the body and universe and this whole world that we live in. And their patients are the ones that are willing to make those changes, willing to make the changes in their diet. I don’t know if the world will ever change. Maybe they’ll have God set it up. There’ll always be black and white. And the yin and yang concept. Dr. Kellman: You know what it is? You don’t need everyone. You need a critical mass for big changes to happen. And then it will diffuse into more and more people through osmosis. And then, once you see it from another angle, it’s like we’ll have a new Heaven and a new Earth. We’ll see the world very, very differently. And I really believe that what’s emerging now in the microbiome, there’s a purpose to it. Why this information is coming out now. And that it will change our way of thinking about who we are and how we heal and a newer understanding of life itself and our ecosystem. And it will make very, very important changes in the way we approach health and healing. Donna: I’ve actually recently heard Dr. Jeffrey Bland who is a major leader in the whole functional medicine movement years ago say very recently, that we really have won the battle. And of medicine is changing. They’re being forced to. People don’t want the drugs, surgery, and radiation. And the rest of us, it is changing. And so thanks to the work of you and thousands of functional medicine doctors, particularly the leaders like you, Dr. Bland, and all the experts on our summit here, they’ve been paving this way for a long, long time, most of them. And we’re winning this battle. And the world is going to change. And the


others, the ones who really don’t care, they’ll benefit. They’ll benefit because this is what we’re all going to be doing some day because it’s the right thing to do. So thank you so much! I know you’re super busy. You’ve got a little one there who wants you to put him to sleep and take their… Dr. Kellman: Donna, it’s always a pleasure talking with you. Thank you! Donna: Oh, I love it, too! Keep doing the wonderful work you’re doing. Thank you very much!

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