do we have to consult the previous scriptures to understand the quran? rebuttal

7/30/2019 Do we have to consult the previous scriptures to understand the Quran? Rebuttal

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Liphe Guru said:

Do we have to consult the previous scriptures to understand the Quran?

August 28, 2013 at 11:58pm

Now that most people with at least two functioning brain cells have seen through the"Obey the messenger means obey Bukhari" sophistry, a new line of attack on the

"meaning" of Quran is being witnessed. This new game although not orchestrated by

the Hadith peddling crowd, has the exact same potential for distortion of Islam. Since

the bulk of distortions in the sect scene's version of Islam can be traced to Jewish and

Christian secondary sources, it is impossible to note the similarities. So now it's all

about referring to the "uncorrupted" Tawrah and Injil.

My Response:

Allah says:

“Do not tasubbū (INSULT) those unto whom they pray beside Allah, fayasubbū (LEST

THEY INSULT) Allah ʿadwan (IN ENMITY) bighayri (WITHOUT) ʿil'min

(KNOWLEDGE)...” Sura 6:108...

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Why do Muslims like Liphe insult Allah‟s Qur‟an by insulting other revelations of

Allah? He alleges that there is a new line of attack on the „meaning‟ on the Qur‟an also

adding insult to injury claiming it‟s a new game putting it on the same line as those

who calls to Hadith. He claims that distortions can be trace back to Jewish and

Christian‟s sources we must be referring to „uncorrupted‟ Tawrah and Injil.

He didn‟t heed the words of Allah when Allah says not to insult others who pray but

this isn‟t the people‟s prayer he‟s insulting the Book(s). Not only is he insulting the

Book(s) he‟s insulting the Qur‟an because the Qur‟an refers to, appeals to the same very

books he claim are corrupted.

Why is Allah instructing the Hudan back to a corrupted Tawrah?

"Say: "O people of the Scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the

TAWRAH AND THE INJIL AND ALL AND WHAT WAS SENT DOWN TO YOUFROM YOUR LORD." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your

Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the

rejecting people." Sura 5/68

, if the Tawrah, Injil are corrupted or if the Tawrah is the same Qur'an we are

reading why is Allah telling Ahlul Kitab to uphold corrupted books or to uphold ALL

of the Books of Allah instead of just calling them to uphold the Qur'an?

Not all of Ahlul Kitab were guilty and disbelievers and among them

were those who uphold the Tawrah, believed in it, followed it...

"And from the people of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what unzila

(was sent) down to you and what unzila (was sent) down to them; fearful to Allah, they

do not purchase with His revelations a cheap price. These will have their reward with

their Lord. Allah is quick in reckoning." Sura 3/199

Allah says and from Ahlul Kitab are those who BELIEVE in the Qur'an in what was sent

to them, Tawrah, Injil... and they are fearful of Allah and they don't purchase with His

revelations a cheap price.

How can they believe in a Book revealed to the Prophet Muhammad if they are the

same Book as the Tawrah or do the believing Ahlul Kitab have their own copies and the



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disbelieving Ahlul Kitab have the corrupted copies?

How can they believe in a corrupted book they have with them if it‟s corrupted?

If their books are corrupted then it doesn't make sense Allah says they don't purchase

with His revelations a cheap price does it?

"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their

eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we have

believed (amanna); write us down among the witnesses (Shahadin)" Sura 5/83

Since they have corrupted books how can they RECOGNIZE the truth within it?

Liphe said:

The disturbing thing to notice is that it is coming from those who claim to be reading

the Quran "carefully". Let‟s g et one thing out of the way, since their claim mirrors the

Orientalist's claim that Quran does not say that previous scriptures are in a corrupted

state, let us see what the Quran actually says. Here is the verse which clearly says

that the Children of Israel twist/distort/corrupt and forgot the words of the

Dhikr and if we read the very next verse it says exactly the same thing about the

Christians.

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard.

They distort ( ) words from their proper places usages and have forgotten aportion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit

among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds].

Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. Quran 5:13

My Response:

What some of our Muslim brothers/sisters like Liphe fail to realize is the ayat says

nothing about changing words from the text of the Scripture.

In fact, when we consult the earliest Muslim views we soon discover that the Jews wereaccused of changing words by misinterpreting the text.

“So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard.

yuḥarrifūna (THEY DISTORT) kalima (THE WORDS) an (FROM) mawāḍiʿihi

(THEIR PALCES) and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded.

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And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them

and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.” Sura 5:13

Allah informs us of the punishment He inflicted upon them when they

violated His Covenant. Allah says:

“because of their breach of their covenant, We have cursed them, that is, because they

broke their pact, Allah expelled them from His Guidance. And <made their hearts

grow hard> so they will not accept their guilt.

The verse, < yuḥarrifūna (THEY DISTORT) kalima (THE WORDS) an (FROM)

mawāḍiʿihi (THEIR PALCES) > means THEY MISINTERPRETED THE VERSES OF

ALLAH, according to their own desires, and fabricated lies against Him.

“And indeed, there is among them lafarīqan (A GROUP) who yalwūna (DISTORT)

the Scripture alsinatahum (WITH THEIR TONGUES) so you may think it is from the

Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is

not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.” Sura 3:78

Allah says none can change His Words however, as what Muslims do with the Qur‟an,

the Jews and Nazarenes ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS.

The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN

THEM WAS REMOVED. However, again just like Muslims do with Hadith and

Sunnah, these Rabbis misguide others by addition and false interpretation of the

Tawrah, Injil along with the Qur‟an, relying on books that they wrote themselves.

It‟s no wonder they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. They corrupt the

word mean they alter or change its meaning.

Yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of Allah. The meaning

is that they interpret the word wrongly.

I don‟t follow any Hadith or Sunnah yet we are told that the Tawrah and Injil has been

corrupted. Where did this come from? Did it come from the Qur‟an, no. Did it come

from Hadith or Sunnah books well, for the sake of argument let us investigate a bit interms of what did the Scholars of the Sunnah and Hadith have to say about the Tawrah.

Muslims will be quick to „say‟ that the Qur‟an explicitly states that the Tawrah [tahrif].

A popular thought amongst Muslims today is that tahrif implies “they changed the text

of the Tawra”.











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I would suggest and encourage you, Muslim or not to reject this opinion that is held by

the majority in favour of the earliest and most credible sources which explicitly state the

text of the Tawrah is intact, but Banu Yisrael misinterpreted it.

Ibn Abbas Misinterpreted the text

“They corrupt the word means they alter or change its meaning, yet no one is able to

change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret

the word wrongly” – (Kitaab Al-Tawheed, Baab Qawlu Allah Ta‟ala, Bal Huwa

Qur‟aanun Majeed, fi lawhin Mahfooth) and “The word Tahrif [corruption] signifies to

change a thing from its original nature; and there is no man who could corrupt a single

word of what proceeds from God, so that the Jews and Christians could corrupt only by

misrepresenting the meanings of the word of God” (Muhammad Isma‟il al-Bukhari,

quoted in Hughes‟ Dictionary of Islam, p.62) – these ahadith indicate that those who

walked with the Prophet (PBUH) believed the text of the Torah was original, whileholding the view that the Jews perverted their interpretation. 154 AH

164 years after the Prophet‟s (PBUH) death

Ibn al-Layth Misinterpreted the text

In the year 796 Abu l-Rabi Muhammad ibn al-Layth (a courtier to Kalif Harun al-Rashid

) penned a letter to Constatine VI stating that the word “tahrif” should be read as the

Jews had distorted their sense. “Whoever looks in the books of the prophets will find

Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned, but the people of the book have obscured thesereferences by changing their interpretation”. Ibn al-Layth categorically denies the

possibility of passages having been added to, or omitted from, the scriptures, and he

then goes on to use the text of the Torah as proof of the authenticity of the Torah (a

belief both he and the kalif share).

1 Risalat Abi l-Rabiʿ Muhammad ibn al-Layth allati katabaha li-l-Rashod ila Qustantin

malik al-Rum

213 AH


Ibn Rabban Misinterpreted the text

In the year 855 Ali ibn Rabban al-Tabari reaffirmed what al-Layth said before him, that

the Jews distorted their interpretation of the scriptures and not of the text itself . Both



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c 290 AH


Al-Baqillani Misinterpreted the text

Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Tayyib al-Baqillani was of the opinion that the words of

Moses were still extant in their Hebrew original and that the Jews had inadvertently

made mistakes in their translations.

305 AH


Al-Ma‟sudi Misinterpreted the text

Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Mas‟udi wrote that in the context of theTorah the word “tahrif” means that the Jews had distorted the sense of the Torah and

not the text.

3 Muruj adh-dhahab wa ma‟adin al-jawahir

c 340 AH


Al-Muqaddasi Changed the text

Al-Muqaddasi was the first author to deviate from the traditional understanding of

“tahrif” with his suggestion that the very text of the Torah had suffered distortion. It

took 300 years for a scholar to suggest this innovative idea and despite it being

incompatible with the view of far greater scholars before him, it is this view that is most

popular today.

390 AH


Ibn Hazm Changed the text

The most influential accusation of Jews falsifying the text of the Torah came 400 years

after the death of Muhammad (PBUH) from Ibn Hazm an Andalusian scholar that

denied Mosiac authorship and instead charged Ezra (Uzair) with penning the text we

read today. This was a radical change from predecessors like Ibn Qutayba and Al-



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Tabari who not only believed the original words were extant, but that it was Ezra who

reinstated them after they had been forgotten.

4 Al-Fisal fi al-Milal wal-Ahwa wal-Nihal

390 AH


al-Biruni Misinterpreted & changed the text

Abu Rayḥan al-Biruni a contemporary of Ibn-Hazm found prophetic allusions to

Muahammad (PBUH) in the Torah , while simultaneously holding the belief that some

of the words had been altered by Banu Yisrael.

So here we have it only three Scholars believed that the Tawrah was changed, the rest of

them believed that the Tawrah was quoted out of context. This is not corruption at all.

In classical Arabic, this word [tahrif] can either mean “alteration” (in the text), or

“misinterpretation” (in the sense). While most of contemporary Muslim propagandists

take only the first possible meaning into consideration, plenty of authoritative scholars

of old (including Imam al-Ghazali and Shaykh Muhiddin Ibn „Arabi) prefer the second

one, and support their point of view through ahadith which are universally accepted as

authentic. According to one of them, the Prophet Muhammad asked the Jews of Medina

to bring their Torah Scroll and to read from it to confirm a verdict (and the argument is

“were that Scroll adulterated, the Prophet would have never judged on its base”).

According to another hadith, he met Jews who were bringing a Torah Scroll in

procession, kissed the Scroll and said “amantu bika wa amantu bima fik” (I believe in

you and in yours contents). The argument here is “were that Scroll adulterated, the

Prophet would have never said „I believe in your contents‟.”. As a Muslim scholar, I

think that showing all these and other legal proof in Islam is the best way to lead

Muslims to recognize the Divine character of the Torah as the Jews have it today.

What is the actual Arabic word Liphe is looking for that means corrupt?

khā bā lām ( ) Kh-Ba-Lam = To be or become corrupted, unsound, vitiated or

disordered in intellect or reason, become possessed or insane, be lost, cut off, deprived

of heart or reason. Prevent or hinder from doing a thing. Affliction, trouble, difficulty,

distress, fatigue. Seek to corrupt, render unsound, occasioning to agitation like that of

possession or insanity, by disease affecting the reason and thought. Difficulty in people

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(THEIR PALCES) and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded.

And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them

and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.” Sura 5:13

The Arabic word Allah uses is Ha-Ra-Fa To pervert, dislocate, change, turn away, discard

anything from, alter, tamper with. To turn a thing from its proper way or manner,

mistranscribe a word, earn or gain subsistence or labour to do so for one's family or

household, suffer the loss of property, turn away or aloof, to be debarred from the

means of subsistence, to be made to experience difficulty, straitened in means of

subsistence, have one's earnings or gain turned away from him.

In any of the ayats does Allah say they distorted the written Tawrah, the

written Words of Allah?

"Do you covet, that they would believe for you while farīqun (A PARTY) min'hum (OFTHEM) yasmaʿūna (HEAR) kalāma (THE WORDS) of Allah and yuḥarrifūnahu

(THEN THEY DISTORT) it after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

Sura 2/75

Allah explains this is what they used to do:

"Among the Jews yuḥarrifūna (THEY DISTORT) kalima (THE WORDS) from

mawāḍiʿihi (THEIR PROPER PLACES) and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but

be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And ifthey had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would

have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their

disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few." Sura 4/46

"O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We

believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews.

[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to

you. yuḥarrifūna (THEY DISTORT) kalima (THE WORDS) min (FROM) baʿdi

(AFTER) mawāḍiʿihi (THEIR CONTEXT), saying "If you are given this, take it; but if

you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah – never will

you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah. Those are the ones for whom

Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for

them in the Hereafter is a great punishment." Sura 5/41

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There is not one ayat Allah alluding to a corrupted Tawrah at all. Again, what has been

presented is that they misinterpreted the text. Muslims do the same today with the

Qur‟an.

Yet, Liphe said:

And Quran 5:13 just nails it :)

If concealing and rearranging parts of the scripture is not corrupting it then what is?

After the above verses are brought to one's attention, if one still keeps on insisting

that these verses are not enough or the more illogical position that they are not

referring to the Towrah and Injil just because the words Towrah and Injil are not

used then it will be easy to conclude that it is nothing but a case of intellectual

dishonesty, especially when the whole narration has to do with Children of Israel.

Actually you don't need quotes from the Quran to prove that the previous scriptures

are tampered with and thus corrupted. As far as evidence of Quran being the very

word of God goes, there is plenty. Just because somebody hasn't taken the trouble to

discover it doesn't mean it is not there by the truckload. Both positions can be

independently verified by applying the test of non-contradiction, a Quranic

standard.

Then there is the bizarre position that since Muslims also distort the Quran it is

acceptable that those who distorted the previous scripture were not any different.

The issue is not who distorted what, the issue is that the previous scriptures stand

distorted irrespective of whether the Quran is distorted or not. And the Quran says

that they are distorted and when we apply the various tools at our disposal it

confirms the distortions. One can play the semantics game but anything not in its

original form is distorted Period.

And that is the difference!!!

My Response:

"O People of the Book, surely there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you

much of what you used to tukh'funa (CONCEAL) of the scripture wa-ya'fu an kathira

(AND OVER LOOKING /FORGIVING MUCH). Surely has come to you from Allah a



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light and a clear book" Sura 5/15

The Arabic word 'tukh'funa' comes from the root KHA-FA-YA which carries the

meaning of what is unapparent / has become imperceptible / has become dim to the

sight / or suppressed, or obscured to the mind. It also carries the meaning of somethingwhich has become 'concealed'.

Therefore, the Quran within context of its Arabic usage clearly recognized that certain

aspects of the previous scriptures had become gradually concealed and deemed it fit to

expound on some of them. It was also not the intention of the Quran to deal with each

and every narrative of the Bible hence the term 'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon,

pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part or indeed pardon much).

No matter what we think we believe about the previous books it is clear that something

was being read by Ahlul Kitab 'contemporaneous' and 'coexistent' with the Prophetic

ministry which the Qur‟an recognized. This also does not negate the fact that there

would have also been a lot of traditions which were in situ as mainstay beliefs in certain

communities of Ahlul Kitab.

Thus, at times certain Gospels / Canonical Books of the New Testament were given

more emphasis in different churches. Therefore, what the Qur‟an addressed were

'beliefs and doctrines' of the time of the ministry that the Prophet Muhammad came

into contact with in 7th century Arabia which may not have always been 'scriptural' but

also partly held in traditions and general theology.

The Qur‟an within context of its Arabic usage clearly recognized that certain aspects of

the previous scriptures had become gradually concealed and deemed it fit to expound

on some of them. It was also not the will of Allah revealing the Qur‟an to deal with

each and every narrative of the Canonical Hebrew, Nazarene Scriptures hence the term

'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon, pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part

or indeed pardon much).

Therefore, the Qur‟an also acted as a 'guard' over the previous scriptures to confirm

(musaddiqan) aspects of the previous scriptures that it deemed necessary to expound

upon and to determine what is true and false of its interpretation.

“ To you We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between

the hands (coexistent Tawrah and Bible), wa-muhayminan (and guarding it by

determining what is true and false.)" Sura 5:48

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As with the Qur‟an, it is not the text which gives rise to erroneous interpretations but

the theology that is 'often read' into the scriptures. This is as true for the the Tawrah,

the Injil as well as is true for the Qur‟an such as the theology of „Hadith‟ and „Sunnah‟

and the Shites belief in the 12 Imams and Ahlul bayt.

Allah says:

“Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you

(this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime)

know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of mum'tarīna (the ones

who doubt). watammat (And has been) fulfilled kalimatu ( the Word) of you Lord

ṣid'qan (in truth) waʿadlan (and justice). Lā (No) mubaddila (one can change)

likalimātihi (HIS WORDS). He is the Hearer, the Knower. Sura 6:114-115

"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in mir'yatin (doubt) liqaihi

(encountering it) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel" Sura 32:23

Hence, we have the Arabic word 'liqai' (the 'hi' simply being a pronoun) comes from

the root word 'Lam-Qaf-Ya' which means:

1) to encounter

2) meet

3) see

4) come across5) or see face to face

What does Allah mean by “And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in

mir'yatin (doubt) liqaihi (ENCOUNTERING IT)”

The same Arabic word “mir'yatin (doubt)” used in Sura 32:23 is also used in the

following:

“So is one who [stands] upon a clear evidence from his Lord [like the aforementioned]?

And a witness from Him follows it, and before it was the Scripture of Moses to lead andas mercy. Those [believers in the former revelations] believe in the Qur'an. But whoever

disbelieves in it from the various factions - the Fire is his promised destination. So be

not in mir'yatin (DOUBT) min'hu (about it). Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord, but

most of the people do not believe.” Sura 11:17

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“So do not be in mir'yatin (DOUBT), as to what these [polytheists] are worshipping.

They worship not except as their fathers worshipped before. And indeed, We will give

them their share undiminished.” Sura 11:109

“But those who disbelieve will not cease to be in mir'yatin (DOUBT) of it until the

Hour comes upon them unexpectedly or there comes to them the punishment of a

barren Day.” Sura 22:55

All of the above ayats mentions being not to be in doubt, or not to contend now in Sura

41:54 we have doubt and meeting as we have in Sura 32:23,

Allah says:

"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in mir'yatin (DOUBT) liqaihi

(ENCOUNTERING IT) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel" Sura 32:23

“Unquestionably, they are in mir'yatin (DOUBT) min (ABOUT) liqāi (MEETING)

with their Lord. Unquestionably He is, of all things, encompassing.” Sura 41:54

So based upon the Qur‟an alone, Allah tells us not to contend, be in doubt about

meeting, encountering, or being face to face with the Book of Moses.

Allah says:

“Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you

(this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime)

know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of mum'tarīna (the ones

who doubt). watammat (And has been) fulfilled kalimatu ( the Word) of you Lord

ṣid'qan (in truth) waʿadlan (and justice). Lā (No) mubaddila (one can change)

likalimātihi (HIS WORDS). He is the Hearer, the Knower. Sura 6:114-115

Unfortunately, some of our Muslims Brothers/Sisters like Liphe, believe that this ayat

refers to the decrees or laws of Allah regarding, for instance, who will be allowed to

accept the guidance. They then claim that these ayats isn‟t referring to his Books per se.

Yet, there is nothing in the immediate context which rules out the Books from being

part of the words which Allah claims can never be changed.

In fact, there are Muslims who go so far as to use passages such as the above to prove

that the Qur‟an cannot be abrogated or changed:

The claim of corruption is in complete contempt of Allah's words in the Qur‟an:









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3. Therefore, no one has or can change the Tawrah, Zabur and Injil.

Here we can see that there was a punishment from Allah sent to those who divided the

Qur‟an and made the Qur‟an into parts. This is so serious that they also will be question

by Allah.

Allah says:

"As we sent down (PUNISHMENT) on muq'tasimīna (THOSE WHO DIVIDED) those

who made jaʿalū (HAVE MADE) the Qur‟an ʿiḍ īna (IN PARTS) fawarabbika (SO BY

YOUR LORD) lanasalannahum (SURELY WE WILL QUESTION THEM) ajma ʿīna

(ALL) about what they used to do.” Sura 15:90-91

Deserving of punishment all because they divided it into parts I mean looking at the

ayat this is serious. Yes, it is a confirmation of what is between its Hands which is the

Torah, Injil. This clearly confirms that the previous Scriptures are intact and the Qur'anis a confirmation of it and guardian yet the Qur'an says that the previous Scriptures also

confirm the Qur'an.

Allah says about the so called Scattered Books of Moses:

“They measured not Allah with a true measure when they said, „Allah has not sent

down aught on any mortal.‟ Say: „Who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a

light and a guidance to men? YOU PUT IT Iqarāṭ īsa (NTO PARCHMENTS),

tub'dūnahā (YOU DISCLOSE SOME OF IT), watukh'fūna (AND HIDING) kathīran(MUCH); and you were taught that you knew not, you and your fathers.‟ Then leave

them alone, playing their game of plunging. This is a Book We have sent down, blessed

AND CONFIRMING THAT WHICH bayna yadayhi (THEY HAVE IN THEIR

HANDS) Sura 6:91-92

Now the question is ==> Iqarāṭīsa (NTO PARCHMENTS) <== SCATTERING the Book

that Moses received into HALF TRUTH? Allah says that they put it into

PARCHMENTS some of it they revealed and some of it they concealed. This ayat does

not say anything about them corrupting the Book of Allah given to Moses.

Allah uses the same word ==> Iqarāṭīsa <== in:

"And even if We had sent down to you, kitāban (A WRITTEN SCRIPTURE) fi (IN)

qir'ṭāsin (A PARCHMENT) and they touched it with their hands, the disbelievers



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would say, "This is not but obvious magic." Sura 6/7

Allah says those who divided the Qur‟an into parts was deserving of punishment, what

Qur‟an was this Allah is referring to Liphe? Have you not seen this particular ayat?

Allah mentions the Book of Moses yet Allah says:

“This is a Book We have sent down, blessed AND CONFIRMING THAT WHICH

bayna yadayhi (THEY HAVE IN THEIR HANDS) Sura 6:92

Allah still makes it very clear that this Book of Moses is still with them and the Qur‟an

came confirming the point that this Book is still with them. You are similar to the Sunnis

you want to Slander the Tawrah, the Injil yet something happened to the Qur‟an as well

you won‟t slander the Qur‟an though. This is a major contradiction you have to face up

to.

The hidden Origin of Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKzXzCCVC1I&feature=share

Liphe said:

If one still insists on this impossible position then the only logical conclusion is they are

not interested in getting to the truth of the matter. If I were to insist that show me a

verse in the Quran by name that says that we should read yes it should say read the

Tawrah before we can understand the Quran, again by name then what will be your

reaction?

Quran is what it is and nobody can demand how it should convey a point. Furthermore,

in spite of the clear failure to understand the facts behind the impossible to carry the

argument that Quran cannot be proved to be the very word of God, it can be and once

again there is plenty of evidence to support it and there nothing that matches it with the

same degree of certainty for any other claims of Revelations currently in circulation.

None whatsoever

Allow me to try and put the verses where it is stated that we should refer to those who

had previously received the message in perspective. The first thing we note in all the

related verse is that not once we were asked to refer to a previous message, it is always

to the people who were given the message. And the repeated use of the past tense to

qualify it to be a guide and a reminder is important. Because Quran 15:9 is in the

present tense and it is an unqualified declaration. It is also clear as to what happened in



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My Response:

The Qur‟an has used for phrases speaking of groups of Jews or Nazarenes at the time of

Prophet Muhammad spoken of as believers or unbelievers in order to emphasize that

there were always some true believers who would not have changed their own

scriptures.

"That which we have revealed to you of the Book is the truth, attesting to (the truth of)

that which is bayna yadayhi (IS BETWEEN HIS HANDS) (THE TAWRAH AND THE

GOSPEL)” Sura 35/31

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; but it is a verification

of that bayna yadayhi (IS BETWEEN HIS HANDS) (THE TAWRAH AND THE

GOSPEL), and the explanation of the book, wherein there is no doubt, from the Lord of

the worlds." Sura 10/37

"...It (the Qur'an) is not a fabricated story, but a verification of that which bayna

yadayhi (IS BETWEEN HIS HANDS) (THE TAWRAH AND THE GOSPEL), a

detailed explanation, a guide and a mercy to the people who believe." Sura 12/111

“Wamin qablihi (AND BEFORE IT), was kitābu (THE BOOK OF MOSES) imāman (AS

A GUIDE) waraḥmatan (AND A MERCY). Wahādhā (AND THIS) kitābun (THIS IS A

BOOK) muṣaddiqun (CONFIRMING) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust,and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.” Sura 46/12

"Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns listening to the Qur'an...When the

(reading) was finished they returned to qawmihim (THEIR PEOPLE) as warners. They

said, ` yāqawmanā (O OUR PEOPLE)! we have heard kitāban (A BOOK) revealed baʿdi

(AFTER) Moses muṣaddiqan (CONFIRMING) lima (WHAT) bayna yadayhi (IS

BETWEEN HIS HANDS) (THE TAWRAH AND THE GOSPEL) guiding to the truth

and to a straight path.'" Sura 46/29-30

When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe

in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth muṣaddiqan

(CONFIRMING) lima (WHAT) maʿahum (IS WITH THEM). Say: "Why then have ye

slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" Sura 2/89

“And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which maʿahum



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(WAS WITH THEM), farīqun (A GROUP / PARTY) of those who had been given the

Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know.” Sura

2/101

The Qur'an is an Arabic "verification / confirmation" of the Book of Moses which isnecessary because the people in the Prophet‟s time couldn't understand what "the two

group before" them had LEARNED by "assiduous study"; or they would have followed

it better".

Assiduous:

1. Constant in application or attention; diligent: an assiduous worker who

strove for perfection. See Synonyms at busy.

2. Unceasing; persistent: assiduous research.

“And when there comes unto them a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah,

muṣaddiqun (CONFIRMING) lima (WHAT IS) maʿahum (WITH THEM)

although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved -

but [then] when there came to them that which arafū (THEY

RECOGNIZED), they disbelieved bihi (IN IT); so the curse of Allah will be

upon the disbelievers..” Sura 2/89

THE TRUE ULEMA / SCHOLARS of this DEEN of Islam are theLEARNED / SCHOLARS of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

“And has it not been āyatan (A SIGN) that yaʿlamahu (KNOW IT) ʿulamāu

(THE SCHOLARS / LEARNED) of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL?” Sura

26/197

Allah says about people like you Liphe, those who believe in part of the

Qur‟an and disbelieve in part of the Qur‟an:

“Do not tasubbū (INSULT) those unto whom they pray beside Allah, fayasubbū (LEST

THEY INSULT) Allah ʿadwan (IN ENMITY) bighayri (WITHOUT) ʿil'min

(KNOWLEDGE)...” Sura 6:108...



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We have to study this ayat very carefully, Allah forbids us from insulting others whom

they serve besides Allah. Yet, Allah doesn‟t even mention about a previous Scripture

that He revealed. If we are not supposed to insult others whom they serve besides Allah

we have no right in slandering previous Scriptures that we may not agree with or that

we feel has been distorted.

Allah says:

“Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of

your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if

they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden

to you. afatu'minūna (SO DO YOU BELIEVE) bibaʿḍi (IN PART) kitābi (OF THE

BOOK) watakfurūna (AND DISEBELIEVE) bibaʿḍin (IN PART)? Then what is the

recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on

the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allahis not unaware of what you do.” Sura 2/85

"Hast thou not turned your vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? They

buy and sell error... Of the Jews there are those who change the words from their

(right) places, and say: `we hear and we disobey'; and `hear what is not heard', and

`Ra'ina' with a twist of their tongues and a slander to faith. If only they had said: `We

hear and we obey'; and `Do hear'; and `Do look at us'; it would have been better for

them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief; and they will not

believe except a few. O you to whom the Book came, believe in what We sent down (theQur'an), attesting to (the truth of) what IS WITH YOU (the Tawrah) , before we deface

your countenances..." Sura 4:44-47

As in the preceding passage the charge is made against "those" (some) of the Jews "who

change the words"; but here several examples are given - examples where Qur‟ans

words are being altered.

What people do from the Jews to the Muslims even Jews was to twist words and

expressions, so as to ridicule the most solemn teaching of Faith. Where they should

have said, `we hear and we obey,' they said aloud, `We hear,' and whispered, "Wedisobey." Where they should have said respectfully, `We hear,' they added in a whisper,

`What is not heard,' by way of ridicule. Where they claimed the attention of the Teacher,

they used an ambiguous word apparently harmless, but in their intention disrespectful.

`Ra'ina' if used respectfully in the Arabic way, would have meant `Please attend to us'

(or `Do look at us'). With a twist of their tongue, they suggested an insulting meaning,

such as `O thou that takest us to pasture!', or in Hebrew, `Our bad one!'"

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Amn#%282:85:23%29



http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=bED#%282:85:24%29



http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ktb#%282:85:25%29



http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kfr#%282:85:26%29













22 | P a g e

It‟s obvious that the Jews were covering some verses and reading others out of context.

In Arabic this is called "al-tahrif al-ma`nawi" or "CHANGING THE MEANING".

Hasn‟t the same thing happen to the Qur‟an?

It is also necessary to emphasize the little phrase "EXCEPT A FEW". There were a fewwho were serious, who believed.

Allah says clearly that any who believe in Allah and the last day and

does righteous deed will not fear nor grieve:

"Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes;

whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good works, then they

will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." Sura 5/69

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens;

any one of them who believes in Allah and the Last Day, and does good work, they will

have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve." Sura

2/62

"Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes;

whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good works, then they

will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." Sura 5/69

The Ahlul Injil are told by Allah to judge by their Injil (Gospel) and if they don‟tthey are disbelievers:

"walyaḥkum (And let judge) with the people of the Injil what Allah has sent down in it.

And whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, then these are the

disbelievers." Sura 5/47

The Hudan (Jews) are told to judge by their Tawrah:

"But yuḥakkimūnaka (how is it that they ask thee for judgment) seeing that they havethe Tawrah, fīhā (in it) ḥuk'mu (is Allah's injunctions) - and thereafter turn away? Such

as these, then, are no [true] believers." Sura 5/43

Whoever don't judge by the Book of Allah are disbelievers:

"We have sent down the Tawrah, fīhā (in it) hudan (is guidance) wanūrun (and a



23 | P a g e

light); the prophets who have surrendered yaḥkumu (judged) bihā (with it) for those

who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of

Allah's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me;

and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge

with what Allah has sent down, then these are the rejecters." Sura 5/44

If there were true corruption of the Tawrah and Injil ask yourself this

simple question would Allah appeal the Ahlul Kitab (People of the

Book) back to these corrupted books. Wouldn‟t Allah make the Qur‟an

enough for them all?

"Say: "O people of the Scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the

Tawrah and the Injil and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of

them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them intransgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people." Sura 5/68

Among the the people of Moses their are a section / group of them who

guide and who establish justice in the light of truth what book are they

using to do this:

"Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth."

Sura 7/159

Ahlul Kitab are told to recite their Scripture are they reciting a corrupted

Book:

"Those to whom We have given the Scripture and they yatlūnahu (RECITE IT) as it

truthfully deserves tilāwatihi (To BE RECITED); they believe bihi (in it). As for those

who disbelieve in it, they are the losers." Sura 2/121

There are among Ahlul Kitab those who believe in Allah and the Qur'an

and they fear Allah and do not purchase with His revelations a cheap

price:

"And from the people of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what unzila



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(was sent) down to you and what unzila (was sent) down to them; fearful to Allah,

they do not purchase with His revelations a cheap price. These will have their reward

with their Lord. Allah is quick in reckoning." Sura 3/199

How can it be possible to fine the Prophet's description in a Book lost orcorrupted:

"Those who follow the messenger (Tabiuna RasulAllah), (Nabiya Ummiya), whom they

find maktūban (written)ʿindahum (with them) fi (in) the Tawrah and the Injil;- for he

commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (munkar); he allows

them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and

impure) (Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which

were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow

the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." Sura 7/157

Again, the Qur‟an basis is validity from the Tawrah and Injil.

Among Ahlul Kitab are those who are upright and they recite the Revelations of

Allah during the night and they make sajud, they believe in Allah and the last day

and they enjoin right and forbid wrong and do good deeds:

"They are not all the same, from the people of the Scripture ummatun (are a nation) that

is upright; they recite Allah's revelations during parts of the night and they prostrate.

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is

wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous." Sura 3/113-114

What book are they reciting?

Among Ahlul Kitab are those who listen to the Qur'an and when they listen their eyes

become teary RECOGNIZING THE TRUTH WITHIN it how are they able to do this

with a corrupted Book:

"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their

eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we have

believed (amanna); write us down among the witnesses (Shahadin)" Sura 5/83

Among Ahlul Kitab are those who believe in Allah and the Qur'an and

they submit to Allah not selling Allahs ayati for a miserable gain:



26 | P a g e

1) Allah says Moses was given the Book

continued....

"Do they not reject what was given to Moses before? They say: 'TWO KINDS OF

SORCERY, EACH ASSISTING THE OTHER!"

Again, we know that Moses was given the Book. They are accusing the Book of Moses

and the Qur'an as two kinds of sorcery supporting each other.

"And they say: 'For us, we reject all (such things)!'Say: "Then bring bikitābin (A

BOOK) minʿindi lahi (FROM ALLAH)"

Again, the topic of discussion is "bikitābin (A BOOK)" from Allah this is clear. Allah

instructed the Prophet to say to them present a book from Allah this doesn't have

anything to do with magicians. Its about 'a book' from Allah.

the ayat continues....

" which ahdā (IS A BETTER GUIDE) min'humā (THAN BOTH OF THEM) (Tawrah

and the Qur‟an" , attabiʿ'hu (THAT I MAY FOLLOW IT)! (do), if ye are truthful!""

So Allah puts the Book of Moses next to the Qur'an and challenges the unbelievers to

bring a book which is not only a better guide than the Qur'an, but also better than the

book of Moses! This presumes that the book of Moses was:

(a) available during Prophet Muhammad‟s time, and

(b) equal to the Qur'an in terms of guidance.

The Qur'an goes on to state that the previous scriptures are similar to it, being just

mithlihi (LIKE IT), the very same expression as found in the verses quoted at the

beginning of this paper:

"Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness

from among the children of Israel has borne witness of one mith'lihi (LIKE IT), so he



27 | P a g e

believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people ...

And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book

VERIFYING (it) IN the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as

good news for the doers of good." Sura 46/10

"To the like-thereof ==> like the Qur'an, and the meaning is that the contents of the

Tawrah hence, the Pentateuch by their purport attest the Qur'an, as corresponding

therewith, or resembling it which means the Qur'an lays its existence and validity on

the Tawrah.

"And before it kitābu (WAS THE BOOK) of Moses imāman (AS A GUIDE)

waraḥmatan (AND A MERCY). And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to

warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good." Sura 46/12

So this proves the Qur'an is from Allah and believed, that is, in the

Qur'an, when the witness saw the intimations of revelation

corresponding with the truth.

Also if we study the Qur'an carefully we will see Allah putting a structure of the

argument perhaps assuming the divine origin of the Tawrah, is the author of the Qur'an

argues that because the Qur'an is "like the Tawrah", therefore it is of divine origin as

well.

In this context at least, the Qur'an seeks to derive its authority from the authority of the

Tawrah this is clear.

However, the relation of "being like it" is symmetric, i.e. "the Qur'an being like the

Tawrah" implies also "the Tawrah being like the Qur'an".

This is simple fundamentals. Thus, based on the testimony of the Qur'an itself, the

Book of Moses is like it, and therefore meets the above quoted challenge "to bring

something like it".

My contention is that it is evident from the above citations that the author of the Qur'an

Allah the Most High, believed that the Book of Moses, met the Quran‟s challenge to

produce something like it.

do we have to consult the previous scriptures to understand the quran? rebuttal

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